Is Donald Trump Trying to Create an Anti-Terror Partnership with a Terrorist?
David Satter at National Review asks whether Donald Trump is preparing to partner with a terrorist responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians. The suspected terrorist? Vladimir Putin:
As President Trump apparently prepares for a U.S.–Russian partnership against terror, it is critical that the CIA reveal what it knows about the September 1999 Russian apartment bombings that propelled Vladimir Putin to power.
. . . .
I was in Moscow when the buildings were blown up killing 300 persons and I was immediately suspicious of the explosions. They were too convenient for Yeltsin and his corrupt entourage. Moscow had also been awash with rumors that a massive provocation was coming. But I became convinced that the bombings were a false-flag attack when a fifth, unexploded bomb was discovered September 22 in the basement of a building in Ryazan, southeast of Moscow, and local police arrested three persons who turned out to be not Chechens but agents of the Federal Security Service (FSB).
. . . .
The 1999 bombings, 18 years after they occurred, however, are not a peripheral issue. They pose the question of whether Putin is a terrorist. This is a question that the U.S. is in no position to ignore, particularly insofar as we are on the verge of joining Putin in a partnership against terrorism.
I detailed some of the evidence of FSB and Putin’s involvement in the bombings when I reviewed Garry Kasparov’s book Winter Is Coming: Why Vladimir Putin and the Enemies of the Free World Must Be Stopped:
In 1999, when Putin was Yeltsin’s prime minister, a series of bombings in Russia had been attributed to Chechen separatists. In the town of Ryazan, a resident of an apartment building saw men carrying large sugar bags filled with white powder into the apartment basement. The resident called the police, who found the bags connected to a detonator. Chemical tests at the scene revealed the presence of the same type of explosive used in the previous bombings thought to be carried about by the Chechens. Putin praised the police and the alert citizen.
But then something weird happened. The director of the FSB announced that the planting of the bags was simply a training exercise by the FSB to test the public’s vigilance. There had been no explosives in the bags, he claimed, just sugar. Why announce this, after Putin himself had treated the discovery as a foiled terror plot? Because local police had already developed evidence tying the planting of the bags to FSB agents. Left unexplained: why the initial tests of mere sugar had revealed explosives. Suspicions increased with reports of soldiers having previously discovered sugar bags at a nearby military base with a “strange substance” that turned to be the explosive in question.
The bottom line is that there is evidence that Putin and the FSB were actually behind some of the bombings that were attributed to the Chechens.
This provides useful background for Satter’s article, in which he says he recently received a response to a FOIA request he sent to the State Department for documents relating to the bombings. Satter says that, among the documents he received in November was the ominous cable he describes here:
According to a cable on the Ryazan incident from the U.S. embassy in Moscow, on March 24, 2000, a former member of the Russian intelligence services told an embassy political officer that the real story of the Ryazan incident would never be known because “the truth would destroy the country.” He said that the FSB “does indeed have a specially trained team of men whose mission is to carry out this type of urban warfare.” He said that Viktor Cherkesov, the first deputy director of the FSB and a former interrogator of Soviet dissidents, was “exactly the right person to order and carry out such actions.”
But many of the documents Satter received were no heavily redacted as to be useless. The CIA knows something, he believes. Satter concludes:
Many years have gone by, but no Chechen has ever been convicted of participating in the apartment bombings, whereas the evidence of FSB involvement is overwhelming.
Imagine if President Trump were considering a partnership with Osama bin Laden to fight terrorism. If Putin is responsible for “Russia’s 9/11,” then a partnership with Putin would be different, not in kind, but only in terms of the scale of lives lost.
Satter is right: the CIA needs to reveal what it knows. I hope he takes this fight to court.
UPDATE: Here is some beautiful propaganda for Putin:
O’Reilly: “Putin’s a killer”
Trump: “There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think—our country’s so innocent?” pic.twitter.com/wBUyNncsYr
— Bradd Jaffy (@BraddJaffy) February 4, 2017
If Putin wants to draw a moral equivalence between his murder and jailing of political opponents, and possible terror attacks on his own citizens, on one hand, and the actions of America, on the other hand . . . if anyone tries to question that absurd equation, all Putin has to do is point to this statement by the President of the United States.
Heck of a job, Trump.
[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]
As President Trump apparently prepares for a U.S.–Russian partnership against terror
link?
what are we partnering on?
are there gonna be franchise opportunities?
maybe we both get together and bomb the tacos out of the saudi royal perverts
that would be cool
but I don’t think that’s the specter being raised here
what’s the context of this partnering
nobody tells me anything
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:19 pmfailmerica’s thrown a LOT of monies and bodycount at this war on terror thing and it’s been kind of a humiliating and hyper-expensive strategic trainwreck, to say nothing of the hell it’s played on civil liberties in the “land of free slash home of brave”
maybe it’s time to think about taking on a partner
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:30 pmYes, because the point of this post was to argue that we should go it alone in the war on terror, but you, with your honesty and common sense, have shown me the error of my ways.
Your function is to put a stupid pro-Trump spin on every post. You add literally nothing to the discussion and have not for years.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:36 pmWhich is weird because I know you’re capable of more but you’re determined to make people disbelieve that.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:37 pmi’ve been working harder but for serious I’m undecided what media we adduce anymore
but I’m working on it
my point here though is that the precise nature of this putative putin partnership matters
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:46 pmHasn’t each and every one of us had to work with someone we don’t like?
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:48 pmLet me rephrase that, since people will probably say that Trump likes Putin.
Haven’t we all worked, and worked successfully, with someone our other coworkers can’t stand?
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 2/4/2017 @ 3:54 pmfor what it’s worth I been clicking on reuters a lot
they spend so much energy hating jews the rest of their coverage seems more or less ok as long as it’s not climate change related
but wapo nyt ap cnn bbc are beyond the pale
i did accidentally read a good ap article from drudge the other day on the border adjustment tax and how it makes pussyhatter John Cornyn reach for the hormone supplements (it’s not that he gives a crap about america – he has a sad cause of all the oil that gets refined in texas)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:04 pmA NR strawman.
Recent conflicts should remind Americans that ex-pats makes for great cheerleaders urging others to do what they won’t- or can’t- do themselves, too.
Putin is a Russian creation and a problem for the Russian people to manage. And of late his nationalism bolsters his popularity with the Russian people. But it’s not for America- or Europe- or the rest of the world to solve an internal Russian matter. Russians are a proud people with a long and bloody history and equally long memories. They haven’t forgotten the U.S. ‘invaded’ their country a hundred years ago. Or the 20 million they lost in WW2.
This is not to excuse Putin for his murderous brutality and meddling anymore than the blood on Stalin’s hands, who was a vital American ally against the Axis, as a matter of pragmatics.
Pragmatists work a problem; ideologues often exacerbate them. There’s nothing to be gained by calling Putin a murderous scumbag over and over and over. Can’t change the past. We know what he is. But if your neighbor likes to ‘poison pigeons in the park- or maybe a squirrel or two’ but has some extra hoses to help put out the brush fire threatening your homes, you use them,work together and battle the blaze. Partnering w/Russia to quash radical Islamic terrorism could lead to better relations with Russia. Putin, in the long run, is transient.
When a ship of state sinks, there’s usually flotsam left in the wake for a long time. Putin is just that; a piece of wreckage from the last century. The Russia of today is not a superpower. It is not the Soviet Union of yesteryear as much as Vlad wishes it was. There is little it has that the world wants beyond natural resources. Russia is a regional power baiting aging Cold Warriors and rigid ideologues in the West for attention. Desperate for cash flow to sustain itself, Russia sells energy resources to Europe. And to America, such esoteric services as HSF operations and welcomes business investments Russian consumers crave.
Pragmatists are in. Ideologues are out. And Putin is a problem to be worked– until he sinks into history like his beloved USSR.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:08 pmThe story is even more complicated the late anton surikov, who had worked with basayev, back in Georgia, and may have coordinated the operation at a meeting in the south of France in the summer of 1999.
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:09 pmbush and food stamp both have a lot of blood on their hands too
and for what
16 years of foreign policy and national security fecklessness
well
we do have tranny sailors now
and that’s genuinely fabulous
but god bless you please Mr. Donald Trump
do.
better.
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:18 pmTwo words: Menachim Begin.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:34 pmWhich is to say, we have held our nose before, for important reasons. We could all name others.
The question is more whether an alliance with Putin makes sense, and I have trouble with that, since he’s played all sides of things in the Middle East, with the goal always being more influence.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:37 pmWhy do I keep seeing FDR ?
Neo (d1c681) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:38 pmBin Laden is not the same as Putin, IMO. Why was Putin’s record not relevant when Hillary and Obama pressed the reset button?
I respect you and thank you for hosting this blog. But I am literally in tears right now after experiencing a day of vicious fighting among friends and family about politics. It will lead to nothing good. It will not stop until he’s gone, and that will leave a bloody trail.
So I gotta go for the sake of my sanity. See you on the radio.
Patricia (5fc097) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:43 pmUPDATE: Here is some beautiful propaganda for Putin:
https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/828026170302148608
If Putin wants to draw a moral equivalence between his murder and jailing of political opponents, and possible terror attacks on his own citizens, on one hand, and the actions of America, on the other hand . . . if anyone tries to question that absurd equation, all Putin has to do is point to this statement by the President of the United States.
Heck of a job, Trump.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:47 pmI do hope that someone in the administration knows what we want to do in Syria, Turkey, Iran and the Gulf. I’m pretty sure I don’t want Trump’s master plan. Presumably this would be Tillerson, but ?
We may need to ally with Putin against ISIS, not because we want to, but because Obama has left us with a shambles. But there are problems with that (Turkey, Iran, Israel Lebanon, the Kurds, …).
I’m going to guess that Putin plays chess better than Trump.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:50 pmUntil I read Garry Kasparov’s book, I didn’t know about the very strong evidence showing Putin was behind bombing attacks in a false-flag operation on his own citizens.
Had I known, I certainly would have been more aggressive about denouncing Obama. Although even Obama didn’t kiss Putin’s ass the way Trump does. See the update for an example.
If the facts are the way the evidence seems to point, then the difference between Putin and OBL is truly just one of scale. OBL has some 3000 bodies to his credit. Putin has several hundred. (It could be argued that he has a lot more, for other reasons, but I’m sticking with the direct comparison of outright terror attacks.)
You can say they are not the same “in your opinion” but respectfully, that does not address the evidence I have discussed.
OK. I’m not on the radio, so, I guess I’ll see you when he’s gone.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:53 pmDCSCA
So Russia and the DNC have a lot in common besides a bunch of old commies.
Pinandpuller (f88b8c) — 2/4/2017 @ 4:53 pmThe Iranians are the major problem In Syria, but our friends in the kingdom and the Emirates hold the leash on the Saladi militia,like tahrir al sham
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:02 pmThe last administration set in motion events that led to the Russian advance into the Middle East so the question going forward is how do American forces operate there without conflict with the Russians? That’s likely what’s being called a partnership when it’s far more likely we’re talking about ways to advance mutual interest(s) without conflict and confrontation.
crazy (d3b449) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:05 pm“And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”
AZ Bob (f7a491) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:09 pmSometimes, FDR has to ally with Kindly Old Uncle Joe Stalin in order to defeat Hitler.
Evan3457 (9783e9) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:10 pmAnd he killed somewhere between 35 and 50 million Russians during his time as General Secretary.
Sometimes, that’s the best you can do.
@19. Could just be.
Not a fan of Pelosi, Hoyer and Grim Weeper Chuckie myself. The Brits do this better; after a loss like they’ve had, their party would have had them resign their leadership posts. Instead they cling to power, bought and paid for and continue to demonstrate they have no game plan to deal w/Trump three months after the election loss. Regardless of your politics, no American in general or Democrat in particular should have a thread confidence in those three crafting any viable, alternative solutions to problems facing the nation in the immediate future.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:10 pmand without abandoning support and security guarantees for our European friends.
crazy (d3b449) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:11 pmhe’s so awesome how unafraid of the truth he is, our president
Europe in particular must be utterly gobsmacked
God has truly blessed us with the right man at the right time
worst case scenario: our tatted-up soldiers slaughter fewer people for a handful of warm strategic poop
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:13 pmit’s been so long since America and smart could be used in the same sentence
it must be very disorienting for people all over the whole whirl
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:17 pmWe have no permanent allies but interests, Palmerston said, now in that section of the world perhaps Poland and Hungary are our only major allirs
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:17 pm“Our main concern is security”, said the Law and Justice (PiS) representative, “followed by sealing the borders, and thirdly the introduction of procedures facilitating the expulsion of people entering – or trying to enter – Poland illegally”.
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:21 pmAll I have to say is that you commit diplomacy (and all that entails) with the foreign diplomats you get, not the ones you want. Unless you want to ignore reality, you take the bad with the good. Every U.S. President is called a murderer by some one. I personally think Obamato be a murderer – responsible for every child destroyed due to his EO cancelling the Mexico Policy. This is just one reason I can think of right now.
felipe (023cc9) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:21 pm“foreign diplomats”
Yeesh, there was a much better way to say this. It escaped me. Foreign leaders, I guess.
felipe (023cc9) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:23 pmObama helped the saudi royal perverts slaughter yemeni boys and girls by the social justice butt-load
I CAN HAS SCANDI PEACE PRIZE?
yes food stamp of course pickle-poo
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:24 pmExactly, and their putative neighbors are having kittens over these priorities
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:25 pmI see you, Evan3457 and will expand a bit–
The apartment bombings were only one of the many fascinating parts of Garry Kasparov’s book which I just read on Patterico’s recommendation. There is no question in my mind that Vlad Putin is still a dangerous dictator steeped in his KGB ways and methods. Forming any type of alliance with him for any reason must be done carefully and with eyes wide open.
Josef Stalin was once the head of Russia. He came to power following Lenin in 1929. He was a vicious murderous dictator. British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed (unnatural deaths) between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties in his book Europe A History.
The Battle of Stalingrad was the major battle between German and Soviet troops in World War II. Marked by fierce close quarters combat and direct assaults on civilians by air raids, it is regarded as one of the single largest (nearly 2.2 million personnel) and bloodiest (1.7–2 million wounded, killed or captured) battles in the history of warfare. The battle was fought in the winter of 1942–1943 and ended with the surrender of an entire German army there. Stalingrad is considered a major turning point of the war in favor of the Allies because German forces never regained the initiative in the East and withdrew a vast military force from the West to replace their losses.
No one can argue that the role of Russia in the Allies camp didn’t ultimately lead to the partitioning of Berlin and the cold war and many other bad things. That is all true. However what is also undeniably true is that Stalin’s/Russia’s contribution to the outcome of WWII changed the history of the world from what it would have been had Germany won. The rest of the allies without Stalin could not have done it alone.
So, I view a limited partnership with Putin against Islamic terror–especially on the eastern front–as something that is somewhat similar to the partnership with Stalin. Vomit- inducing indeed, but temporary, strategic, and probably necessary. We can not do this alone.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:30 pm@28– Yes, that’s the old, broad axiom but the strongest bond is sharing a common language. Hence, leaking taking a leak into the bowl of Aussie Cheerios wasn’t too swift. Error on the play charged to Trump on that one. In spite of the media spin, on the tight ones the U.S. can usually depend on Britain, Australia and Canada (in spite of the French accent, eh.) The rest foster ‘interests’ as you note.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:36 pmAnd that is my question. Are Trump’s eyes wide open? His comments to O’Reilly suggest (and many other comments he has made) suggest an impatient indifference to Putin’s known and suspected crimes.
I’m glad you read the book, elissa. I’d love to hear what you think, and would even welcome a post on it if you so desired.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:37 pmbonus: fast forward to 2016 to see an entire german army surrender once more
but this time they didn’t even have to put on their das booties
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:37 pmThe war in the Caucasus, that’s Dagestan as well as IngushetiA and chechnya were perhaps the key element of recruitment outside of the Balkans,
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:38 pmThere are people who want us to essentially partner with Al Qaeda in Syria as well. So the issue of partnering with Putin is not an idle one. We have handed weapons to extremists in the past to fight our enemies and they turned them on us. We need to be especially careful how we handle something like this, and cognizant of the message it sends to the dissidents who are oppressed or worse in Putin’s revivified USSR (not a typo).
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:41 pmWe need to be especially careful how we handle something like this
nobody’s explained what this hypothetically worrisome hypothetical partnership even entails
meanwhile
many concrete well-defined worries on radar
happyfeet (28a91b) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:46 pmAnd that would be a critically foolish move but this is what has been happening for the last three years.
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:48 pmDobyoi no provii was Reagan’s motto when the Soviets posed an ideological threat
So much of the Russian concern re the crowdstrike resort and the dodgy dossier has been unfounded, the deaths of nemtsov and the recent poisoning or murza is something else again.
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:51 pmAre Trump’s eyes wide open? His comments to O’Reilly suggest (and many other comments he has made) suggest an impatient indifference to Putin’s known and suspected crimes.
1. His comments to Billo suggest a teased hype for the full interview so don’t hit the head or leave the room when it’s air during the full day of game goverage on… now which network was that… oh right, FOX.
2. They also again reveal that Trump is a pragmatist, not an ideologue [nor a diplomat to be sure.] FDR buttered Stalin’ bread; Nixon cracked the door to Mao’s Red China. It’s the business of governance.
“We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale.” – Arthur Jensen [Ned Beatty] ‘Network’ 1976
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:55 pmPretending the eo is not derivative of an actual law, that only the guardian has fully acknowedged is problematic
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 5:57 pmAgain Russia makes so much hay with gitmo and abu Ghraib but we don’t speak of the filtration points or the zachistas ( search and destroy operations)
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:00 pmIt seems that while, yes, in the past, American leaders have had to ally with reprehensible individuals around the globe in order to collectively stave off a greater evil, the question is, does President Trump genuinely understand just how evil Putin is? Because if he doesn’t, we are in serious trouble.
When O’Reilly comments that Putin is a killer and our president doesn’t wholeheartedly agree, and rather pivots instead, it makes me think that he either really doesn’t believe that Putin is a cold-blooded killer (which would be an extremely foolish and dangerous position to put the U.S. in) or he believes he is a cold-blooded murderer, but understands that his obfuscation on the matter serves a strategic purpose that will serve our national security interests. But when he makes the comment that he “respects” Putin, it’s worrisome because Trump admires people who take charge and make bold and swift decisions. And if that includes tyrants, so be it.
The whole thing is weird because when you look at it, President Trump has railed against ISIS, a group of brutal and murderous killers mowing down anything that gets in the way of the mission, and yet Putin is the head of his own club of brutal and murderous killers who would mow down anyone who gets in their way, too. (Of course there are differences, but shouldn’t the comparison have been between Putin and ISIS as murderers, rather than America having murderers, too, like ISIS?)
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:05 pmOr that one of his field commanders seem to consider rape as an acceptable combat tactic as part of these cleansings.
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:06 pmI don’t know how many of you have read the book Charlie Wilson’s War which is mainly about “the U.S.” covertly fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan via the mujaheddin and the incredible steps that were taken to mask our involvement and support, both monetary and otherwise. It was made into a smarmy movie with Julia Roberts and Tom Hanks, but the book is actually pretty good. It was an early exposure for me about CIA officials and operatives running completely amok and uncontrolled, about the politics of the intelligence services, about congress having absolutely no idea where their appropriations were going or being used for, and the importance of certain congressional committees and why it matters who is on them. It also reinforced that there always seems to be an optimistic soft spot for the “freedom fighters” or whatever group seems to be the lesser evil of the moment. This was all happening in the shadow of Iran-Contra which was way smaller in nature but got hearings and TV time because—Reagan.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:07 pm@15 Patricia
In my family, I’m an isolationist and my mom is an interventionist.
And then there’s our politics.
Pinandpuller (f88b8c) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:08 pmThat’s just it, Elisa, my survey of the period suggests they all knew who they were dealing with, massoud wasn’t given meaty as much support as the chiefs designated by isi and General ontelligence.
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:10 pm@ Patricia,
I’m sorry you had a rough day with family and politics. That can be brutal, especially if you’re alone in your views. I hope you’ll take refuge in the things lovely and pure that give our lives meaning as you take a break from the crueler edge of politics. And then I’ll hope you will come back. You’re an asset to the commentariat here.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:10 pmUltimately, it boils down to a question of how much do you trust Trump? Both as a man, and now, as the President of the United States.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:12 pmWhich became the Taliban and al queda, some of the latter folks made it to the Balkans, the next generation was in Libya and syria
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:12 pmI second that.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:13 pmYeah. And the answer to that, for me, is: not at all.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:13 pm@28 crazy
Maybe some baby steps could be not surrendering to Iranian ships in international waters. I hear Trump doesn’t like people who surrender.
And don’t leave sailors hanging in the breeze.
Pinandpuller (f88b8c) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:14 pm“Presidents are not permitted ‘throw away lines.’- David Gergen – CNN talking head tonight.
That’s hilarious coming from a person who was never elected to anything and can whisper advice while remaining an unaccountable part of a problem for four decades. He and George Will outta get a room.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:15 pmYeah. And the answer to that, for me, is: not at all.
Except when it comes to SCOTUS noms, eh. But then, a broken clock is right at least twice a day. 😉
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:17 pm@24 DCSCA
The dem’s game plan is to leave office feet first. Or die trying.
Pinandpuller (f88b8c) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:19 pmThe rest of the allies without Stalin could not have done it alone.
Well, as it turns out the A-bomb would have made it possible, but no one knew that.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:19 pm==Ultimately, it boils down to a question of how much do you trust Trump? ==
But it also boils down to how much you trust the deep state. In my post above about Charlie Wilson’s War, it is unclear that Reagan knew much at all about the arming and training of the mujaheddin and the potential for actual out-and-out open war with Russia at that time had the CIA been exposed–not because Reagan was senile or disinterested or uncaring. But because people went to very great lengths to keep him out of the loop.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:23 pmBut could Hitler have really taken Poland without Stalin’s help, in yemen saleh employed many of the figures who would become aqap in his civil war
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:24 pm“Presidents are not permitted ‘throw away lines.’- David Gergen – CNN talking head tonight.
You mean like “The 80’s called and want their foreign policy back”?
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:25 pmBut whose killers are bigger?
There’s a video game (or two?) in which “Normal” is an achievement. The game designers must have had the Manhattan buffoon in mind.
nk (9faaca) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:28 pmit is unclear that Reagan knew much at all about the arming and training of the mujaheddin and the potential for actual out-and-out open war with Russia at that time had the CIA been exposed
The Russians knew where the training and Stingers were coming from. They didn’t complain because they had done the same damn thing to us, rather more openly, in both Korea and VietNam. We didn’t attack Haiphong harbor for the longest time, for fear of sinking Russian supply ships.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:28 pmThe mujahadeen were to be cannon fodder, the Soviet Viet Minh, but one should have moved to the next chapter, to see how it would turn out.
narciso (676147) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:28 pm@63- Call forwarding from the 70’s as well. Gergen goes back to the Big Dick’s days.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:35 pmThe more I re-read the O’Reilly interview comments, the more stunning I find them. Trump is the president of the United States, not the CEO of a company facing a competitor. He ran down the US while simultaneously praising Russia. That’s a far different thing than allying oneself with an enemy against a greater common enemy. It’s a particularly awful slam against the US.
Further, are there murderers in the US that are similar to Putin, in that they Hold the most powerful position of a nation and as a kill their own people in huge numbers? Why, in God’s name, would our president make such an extraordinary indictment against the nation he leads?
Rather than being diabolical, however, I’m inclined to go with straight-up ignorance. Which may prove the more dangerous.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:37 pm…and Kompromat.
Dave (711345) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:44 pm@15- Patricia, rest easy. My brother is an attorney and a staunch Republican; his wife is an attorney and a staunch Massachusetts born and bred Democrat; their daughter attended a Trump rally in support that turned into a riot and their son backed Hillary all the way. They argue over passing the salt at Thanksgiving dinners. Accordingly, I do the cooking and literally give them the bird.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:44 pmCross-posting from TJTB – he gave an almost identical answer to the identical question over a year ago – and apparently nobody cared.
Dave (711345) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:47 pm@58 DCSCA
There are a few, hither and yon, who think Trump is a broke digital clock.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:48 pmI understand that Trump has been spending time with Kissinger. We know how Kissinger thinks. My guess is that Trump is warming up for a little three-way detente of his own. I wish him luck.
I’m old enough to remember how a certain hard line faction in the Republican Party went nuts about Nixon’s approach. Nixon buried those critics.
ThOR (c9324e) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:49 pm@68. Why, in God’s name, would our president make such an extraordinary indictment against the nation he leads?
Tune in and see. It’s better to watch. Some might find that bluntness refreshing. The clips airing tonight are hilarious. When he does an interview w/Hannity on St. Patrick’s Day don’t be surprised if he insists journalists and the Irish drink too much. Then they can chase that shiny object down a drain for two news cycles.
“Just remember, Jerry… it’s not a lie… if you believe it.” — George Costanza [Jason Alexander] ‘Seinfeld’ NBC TV
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:52 pm@72. He is electrifying, isn’t he!
“What is digital? Digital is Casio!” – Bert Parks, Casio TV ad, 1982
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:55 pmDana@68 I don’t like the sound of some of it either. But I am going to wait for the entire interview before I go apesheet over a few clips and tweets (not that you are). Also, there is no way in heck the president is going to say or agree on national TV that is seen around the world that “Putin is a killer”. O’Reilly should not have put him on the spot like that. What do you think would have been a better reply from President Trump?
That O’Reolly question was as unprofessional and unanswerable as Marco Rubio asking Tillerson to answer outright if Putin is a “War Criminal” during the hearings to aprrove the new Sec. of State. I mean, really???
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 6:56 pmNot true. I posted about that. I’ll go find it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:00 pm@71. There’s a press hook, Dave: ‘Trump displays symptoms of early dementia.’
Watch Maddow do a whole show on it.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:01 pmFrom this post.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:02 pmHe shouldn’t have been on O’Reilly in the first place.
nk (9faaca) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:02 pm@ DCSCA,
It’s not the bluntness of which I am speaking. It’s the content of his statement. I don’t care about him being blunt – we could use more of that from our politicians. However, I am speaking directly about what he said with regard to Americans, ISIS and Putin. How do Americans get equated with brutal, murderous ISIS and Putin doesn’t? And this from the President of the United States.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:03 pmYes that last part is troublesome but we’ve embraced problematic allies in the past take Rios montt in the 80s, who was subject to lawfare for his rather ruthless tactics, the colonels and their pre milo spokesman taki
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:09 pm@76 elissa
Reagan wasn’t afraid to hurt any dictator’s feelings by telling the truth.
Neither were Dubya, or his dad.
Dave (711345) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:12 pmIf Obama said this, every single person defending Trump here would go absolutely apeshit.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:20 pm@81. In a back-handed way, to does speak to his bluntless.
We know Uncle Sam’s hands aren’t always clean and he’s been known to wear dirty underwear. We lie. We spy. We back bad guys and have turned our back on good guys. We’ve toppled governments, whacked and undermined folks in our own interests, too. U.S. military personnel even ‘invaded’ Russia a hundred years ago. It’s just not talked about in such a highly visible public forum. When he was a candidate, he did this. But he likely should mind where and when he says this stuff now.
But you know he wants ratings– and people will now watch this.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:21 pmWe’re going to have to agree to disagree here Dave. “Mr Gorbachev tear down this wall!” and “you’re either with us or against us” is not the same thing as directly calling another major world leader “a killer”. If you were thinking of a comparable statement that Reagan or either Bush made (that did not involve Saddam or Bin Laden, etc.) put it out here for discussion.
And don’t forget that our American astronaut/scientists are up on the International Space Station with Russian transport as the only way to get up there and down these days, since our own space shuttle program was effectively killed in 2011.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:28 pm“55. Ultimately, it boils down to a question of how much do you trust Trump? Both as a man, and now, as the President of the United States.
Yeah. And the answer to that, for me, is: not at all.”
Ok. And then what? He is still the President. And I suspect that–just like he doesn’t call me to ask for my advice– he doesn’t call you to ask if you like what he’s doing.
Since there is nothing you…or I…or any of us… can do about Trump until the November 2020 election it is futile and counter-productive to get an ulcer by obsessing about him.
I didn’t trust Obama. And y’know what? He didn’t care. Hell, he didn’t even know that I mistrusted him. And if somehow he had known, he wouldn’t have cared. So I did what I could, I voted against him.
fred-2 (ce04f3) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:33 pmThe cold war, which was mighty hot for those in the thick of it, involved such realpolitik. Reagan was more idealistic in eastern Europe, but his people seem to be more pragmatic in the middle east and central anerica
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:33 pmelissa,
I agree that it’s wise to wait for the full interview. But since we just have this portion, I’ll go with it. I don’t think O’Reilly would have mentioned the ‘Putin is a killer’ part if he hadn’t been incredulous over Trump’s comments about respecting the leader. Also, I think he was surprised at Trump’s casualness toward Putin. It seems as if he cannot wrap his mind around the fact that the President of the United States doesn’t really find the leader of Russia objectionable.
I’d have to think of what I would consider a reasonable yet non-compromising response. But the question remains, how do you feel about the very real possibility that Trump doesn’t have much of a problem with Putin? In fact, the only thing he questions is whether they’ll like each other.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 7:43 pm==I’d have to think of what I would consider a reasonable yet non-compromising response==
Heh, no fair Dana! The Pres did not have that opportunity or any time at all to think of and consider “a reasonable yet non-compromising response” to O’Reilly’s surprising and inappropriate question about killer Putin.
Yeah, I know. I always think about what I should have said about 10 minutes after I leave a meeting 🙂
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:01 pm“We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think — our country’s so innocent?” — Barack Obama
Y’all are telling me you would not lose your collective shit if that quote had ever happened?
Come on.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:01 pmIt’s the same thing he said as a candidate, in almost the same words.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:02 pmMeanwhile hacks of the Dec seem to come from sources much closer than Russia,,re the daily caller, the three brothers on the house intelligence it staff, imran imran and abide awal
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:13 pmIn this interview from December 2015, Trump said basically the same thing:
So, given that, I don’t think he was caught off guard by O’Reilly’s questions at all. Further, in the December 2015 interview, Trump also appears flattered by Putin, rather than repelled:
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:15 pmWe have a president who, as a candidate, compared Putin favorably to our own president.
Once you become truly aware of the magnitude of Putin’s evil — really feel it in your bones — you have to be pretty feverish with Obama hatred not to find that fact revolting.
I’m sure there are plenty of folks who fit that description though…
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:19 pmNote too, that when asked if he would condemn Putin’s alleged brutal tactics, Trump said he would. It would seem that his interview with O’Reilly was an opportunity to offer at least some disapproval of said tactics while simultaneously extolling the virtues of the USA.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:19 pmWe could have the AG bring a case against Vladimir, but you know some squirrel of a judge, in Seattle perhaps, will stay it’s execution due to lack of jurisdiction.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:26 pmMisha gessen, not a trump fan by any means, contextyaluzed that reference 7n the new York review
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:30 pmSo, in light of 94 and 96, Elissa, I don’t think it would have made one bit of difference if President Trump had any advance knowledge of what O’Reilly would be asking during the interview. Also, based on what we’ve seen of Trump, I don’t think that he does interviews with pre-planned responses. He says whatever goes through his mind at the moment. And that can be both a blessing and a curse for one who holds his position.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:31 pmGod knows I don’t have a Rosetta stone into Trump’s head but Iraq may be a big piece of it in his mind. Trump was probably not an early critic, but in 2016 he campaigned/debated as a critic of the invasion. Lots of people died. Many Americans now think and some openly admit Iraq was a mistake –including Gen. Mattis.
https://theintercept.com/2016/12/05/iraq-was-a-mistake-said-gen-james-mattis-trumps-defense-pick/
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:35 pmThat thought occurred to me too, elissa, when reading President Trump’s “We’ve got a lot of killers. What do you think – our country’s so innocent?” comment. Perhaps he thinking about Iraq and our country’s involvement. An involvement, as you point out, that he opposed.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:42 pm…at some point in time.
Dana (023079) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:44 pm== I don’t think it would have made one bit of difference if President Trump had any advance knowledge of what O’Reilly would be asking==
I don’t think I ever mentioned or suggested he should have had advance notice of the questions, Dana, did I?–that’s a democrat thing. And I don’t want pre- planned answers. Rather, I was merely pointing out that what emerges out of our mouths in a stressful situation is sometimes not a well crafted perfect response. I think that can apply equally to the president, the former president(s), you, me, Patterico, or nearly anyone alive. Trying to get him to call Putin a killer was not good journalism. Period. It was click bait by O’Reilly. I look forward to seeing the whole interview and will probably have further comments, then.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:52 pmHow solid is your case against Putin? Did anyone see him do it? Is there a paper trail? A line of bloody footprints leading to his back porch?
Would Johnny Cochran have gotten him off?
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:54 pmVolodya has been able to suppress the chechenninsurgency in pOrt through kadyrov, the warlord John Oliver attempted to mock, but allegedly redirecting through syria
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 8:56 pmPutin’s a KGB operator and thug, papertiger. He cleans up nicely in public but there’s pretty much no question of that behind the scenes. Where he stacks up in the annals of leaders who intentionally or unintentionally kill people remains for history to decide.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:00 pmWhat
‘s the point of this is my general question.
Is it your goal to decapitate the Russian Republic? Because that sounds like a bad idea to me.
Or is it your goal that we should avoid doing business with Russia?
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:09 pmOh sorry, Papertiger. I see now that your 104 was probably directed to the blogger. I thought you were addressing me.
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:12 pmRedeploying forces out of the caucasus didn’t stop the airport bombings like domedovo, or train stations like tchaikovsky station or outdoor stadiums
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:18 pmSpeaking of potentially terroristy things, before I head off to bed I want to post this which I saw earlier. I mean what in the actual feck is going on? If this is the kind of high quality hiring and vetting the Dems did for their close employees, one can only imagine the vetting that people swarming into the country got.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
Does this not beggar belief?
elissa (214bb7) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:21 pmWe’re in the hands if top men Melissa.
narciso (d1f714) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:25 pmI think we’re on the same page elissa.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:47 pmIn fact we agree alot. At least I think we do.
Not proposing marriage. If you feel the need don’t hesitate to disavow my dumb as. I won’t take it personal.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/4/2017 @ 9:59 pmJust out of curiosity, how many innocent people has Obama droned in the last eight years in the name of me, you, and the rest of the American people?
The press doesn’t report and nobody in this country seems to give a damn, but it might be an interesting exercise to find a number before complaining about the moots in the other fellows eye.
Leon (1bee31) — 2/4/2017 @ 10:02 pmAnd don’t forget that our American astronaut/scientists are up on the International Space Station with Russian transport as the only way to get up there and down these days, since our own space shuttle program was effectively killed in 2011.
At $75 million or so a ride on Soyuz– and Russia has an option to approve or deny when the next contracts come due later this decade.
Thing is, elissa, shuttle flights were averaging $1.5 – $2 billion/flight if not more. Most of the public wasn’t away of the costs. It never really never came close to paying more than part of its way, which defeated the whole idea. And in spite of expensive upgrades, the ‘envelope’ of the vehicle had pretty much been stretched to the limit. Parts for systems designed in the early 1970s were no long available and had to be machined at KSC. The Columbia Accident Investigation Board had several qualifiers the shuttle, ET and SRBs had to meet to keep them flying as well. Like Concorde, the economics just got too costly to keep flying them– at best, maybe twice a year… and w/budgets so tight at NASA, funding them to keep flying diverted resources from developing future projects. The $100 billion-plus ISS costs about $3 billion/year to operate as it is.
The real disaster here were Congressional weenies denying adequate funding for a replacement vehicle and Obama cancelling the Bush proposed and severely underfunded Constellation project to return to the moon– which Obama initially said early in his campaigning he would support. Among the last public efforts of the late Neil Armstrong and late Gene Cernan and the late John Glenn was lobbying Congress to strike a balance between winding down shuttle and funding a replacement- now Orion- and a heavy launch vehicle similar to the Saturn V– so the “gap” would be minimal while encouraging commercial space to pick up the slack and ferry supplies and crews to the ISS w/NASA seed money.
Big fights over how much to seed and how to oversee and manage commercial space for government ops as well. Remember, governments have assumed the risk- due to the scale of the projects and the largess of capital involved- of flying people into and back from space since 1961. In 2017, so far, no private company has ever successfully financed, bilt its own spacecraft, launched and safely returned anybody from from Earth orbit in a private enterprised spacecraft. It ain’t easy. But they’ve made big strides– especially in reusability. The day will come though– but as Cernan once said, ‘they don’t know what they don’t know yet.’ So the infamous ‘gap’ now looks like it will be 7 years or so– longer than the gap between Apollo and shuttle. So for now Americans ride to orbit courtesy of Russia’a Vladimir Putin. Pretty ironic epilogue to the great space race.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/4/2017 @ 11:13 pm@RealDonaldTrump will likely take a different view of Putin once whatever discussions Trump has in mind get rolling.
In the meantime Trump’s talking like someone who thinks the Russian people should pick their leader not US. It’s not clear whether he cares that Putin’s working hard to ensure that doesn’t happen. The best we can probably hope for in Trump’s return to realpolitik is trust but verify.
crazy (d3b449) — 2/5/2017 @ 6:46 amPutin is an enemy with which we are not yet in a hot war. Russia is a country that is comfortable with expansionism, as long as it is by proxy – so far. Not a comfortable world we have from the last administration.
Steven Malynn (d29fc3) — 2/5/2017 @ 6:58 amTrump is right. Josef Stalin was a killer. The Sand Creek massacre happened under Abraham Lincoln. The world is full of killers and it includes ourselves.
Lyle Smith (7dc587) — 2/5/2017 @ 7:14 amAn example of how zachistas worked worked was with strelkov, volodyas puppet in the Ukraine, in the village of shatuni
narciso (d1f714) — 2/5/2017 @ 7:22 amWell, he’s considering a partnership with Assad and Iran – which is what a partnership with Russia in Syria would be.
Assad, of course killed approved the killing of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, and Iran, besides a good number of terrorist attacks in the past, like in Buenos Aires in the 1990s, and also assassinations in Europe, more recently was stung by the FBI when they tried to recruit a Mexican drug cartel to kill the current Saudi Ambaassador in Washington, D.C. Their contact was an informer, who was probably very happy to report taht did not involve a drug cartel. The Obama Administration exposed the plot when the Iranians were told that they could kill him, but they’d have to kill 100 people also that way, and asked do they want them to go ahead, and Iran replied that the people in charge didn’t wanna wait.
Sammy Finkelman (9974e8) — 2/5/2017 @ 7:31 amI will put my killers up against Putin’s any time. I have the best killers. Huge killers. Tremendous killers. Terrific killers. Nobody has better killers than I do, I guarantee it.
Donald J. Trump at the real nk (dbc370) — 2/5/2017 @ 10:36 amWell, Patterico, I am finding this objection to be difficult to sympathize with.
SPQR (a3a747) — 2/5/2017 @ 10:48 amLet’s face it, the United States has frequently waged war while allied with a nation that started wars. The value of a cooperative effort against terrorist movements with Russia comes from the result of the cooperative effort, not whether or not Putin has also used terror against his own citizens.
Well, considering that when Putin was KGB [can we start a rumor among the Millennials that it stands for Kremlin Gay Boys?] the Soviets were sponsoring anti-West terrorism, and are now engaged in overt destabilization even in U.S. elections, we might wish to consider that saying about the Devil and long spoons.
nk (dbc370) — 2/5/2017 @ 10:55 amGuru strelkins branch worked with the brigatte and the baafer, the stash the volodya liaised with in dresden worked with the plo
narciso (d1f714) — 2/5/2017 @ 11:26 amNo Englishman gets to vote for the Queen either. Nor does your average dirt worshiping heathen get a vote for supreme ruler/defender of the faith in Saudi Arabia.
Maybe we should twist Mr. Trump’s arm until he wishes death on those mofo’s also.
papertiger (c8116c) — 2/5/2017 @ 11:46 amI agree. As long as you look at the whole result of the cooperative effort, including the extra legitimacy and power it gives Putin.
Just as we might have allied with Osama bin Laden had there been a worse threat (and many did encourage us to ally with Al Qaeda in Syria). Just as we allied with Stalin and built bridges to Mao.
I have never said don’t do it. But if we had announced a partnership with Osama bin Laden when he was alive, pointing out that he is a terrorist would cause people to think about the secondary effects of legitimizing Osama, arming him when he hates America, etc.
People seem to think I have said an agreement or strategic alliance with Putin is off the table morally. I have not. I have a post coming this afternoon on McConnell’s comments on Putin and I will likely elaborate there.
Any way you slice it, Trump’s comments are a huge and unnecessary propaganda bonanza for Putin and every other state killer across the globe.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/5/2017 @ 11:51 amWe partnered with haqquani who hosted URL, one his family has the largest taliban franchise against the soviet, another figure younis Khalid w the fathervof the talibsn
narciso (d1f714) — 2/5/2017 @ 12:38 pm