Patterico's Pontifications

1/23/2017

Reader Poll: Which Would You Rather Drain: the Media Swamp, or the Government Swamp?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:30 am



Before you read any further, do me a favor and answer this question. I don’t want to prejudice your answers through any analysis that follows.

Patterico.com Poll: Which would you rather see drained: the media swamp or the government swamp?

The media swamp
The government swamp

It’s a question a reader raised recently, and I think it’s an interesting one.

There are competing theories at play here.

The argument I see for the primacy of draining the government swamp goes something like this: the media can’t put you in jail. They can’t confiscate your hard-earned money through taxation, or take your property through eminent domain. Unless you move out of the country, you don’t get a choice as to which government rules you. (Sure, there is a theoretical collective choice, but that is not the same thing as a real personal choice. Your single vote will never decide a national election. But your singular decision to switch the channel or navigate to a new Web page can decide which media outlet you follow at any given moment.) Draining the government swamp is more important because it changes something over which you have no choice, which directly affects your life.

The argument I see for the primacy of draining the media swamp goes something like this: Despite the low approval numbers of all different types of media, the message put out by the media still has an outsized influence on what most Americans think and on how they vote. If you can change the media’s message, and undo the cozy backroom relationships they have with their favored politicians (who are always from the left), you can change who is elected. The election of Donald Trump does not prove the media is now weak; indeed, with the billions in free earned media they showered on him, you could say the media made Trump president. Moreover, more fundamentally, politics is downstream of culture. Change the media and you change the culture, which changes the politics — since our political choices inevitably reflect our collective personal opinions in the end. Draining the media swamp is more important because if you drain the media swamp, the government swamp will follow.

It’s an interesting debate. I’ll be interested to see what people say, even though this is obviously not a scientific poll.

I have cross-posted this at RedState, with the same question phrased the same way but in a different poll, so I can track the differences between the answers of the readerships of both blogs.

I have also cross-posted it at The Jury Talks Back, where we are running an experiment (described here) of ensuring that commentary follows the rules you might follow if you were a guest in my living room. Since many people will be entering The Jury from this post, and will have already taken the poll before going there, I did not think much would be revealed by having a separate poll there. To comment at the Jury version, go here.

65 Responses to “Reader Poll: Which Would You Rather Drain: the Media Swamp, or the Government Swamp?”

  1. I’m sure most will say media because (and I’m assuming here) they will say honest media will beget honest government.

    You could even add draining the education swamp because that IMO is the reason there we have the other two swamps.

    I’ll decline voting and watch the arguments.

    Harkin (fabf46)

  2. Which is easier to drain?

    Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d)

  3. I have to also add that “media” as we know it is devolving into “anyone with a device” so that swamp is not capable of being drained.

    Harkin (fabf46)

  4. it’s the same swamp

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  5. The media doesn’t concern me at all. Their propaganda is only effective on the brainwashed. The only way to stop the endless loss of liberty is to end public education.

    StarkChoice (45e938)

  6. I’m actually agreeing with happyfeet that it’s largely the same swamp. Remember how many “journalists” flowed into and out of the Obama administration? It was a triangle between agencies/White House, various journalism outlets, and K Street lobbyists.

    Some of the media’s temper tantrum over the initial press conference/rules for the Trump administration stems from the media being cut off from their usual comfortable gravy train. While there are legitimate concerns over the free and easy lies told by Trump and his cronies, they also dislike their loss of power.

    Virginia SoCon (8eb3c5)

  7. The government has the power to put you in jail — the media only have the power to pimp lies, distort truths, and publicly humiliate you.

    On the one hand, the media shape the narrative which affects how people perceive the government. But if we drain the government first, thereby unleasing the restraints on the economy, our nation would vastly improve and the media’s case for bigger government would take a hit once people see the results of smaller government.

    Besides, the media outlets are privately owned, so it’s really not possible to drain them, per se.

    Also, journalism tends to attract “I’m going to save the world!” activists, so, if we drain the media outlets of today’s left wing shills, they’ll eventually only be replaced by other like-minded left wing shills who are coming down the pike.

    It’s all a theoretical exercise of course, but I would opt for draining the government first.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  8. It’s a chicken and egg question, but if it’s got to be one or the other, I’ll go with media first.

    They’ll be the toughest nuts to crack, and once that fight goes Trump’s way, the putrid DC swamps will yield to modern Executive cultivation practices quite readily.

    ropelight (7d9ae4)

  9. Cruz Supporter:
    “Also, journalism tends to attract “I’m going to save the world!” activists, so, if we drain the media outlets of today’s left wing shills, they’ll eventually only be replaced by other like-minded left wing shills who are coming down the pike.”

    Totally agree and hence my earlier comments about the education swamp.

    I read a column a few years back that illuminated why education was the real source of partisan media and the death of real journalism. Responding to polls, journalism majors’ goal used to be “inform the public”; now it’s “change the world”. They are being taught that message is more important than facts or balance.

    This was recently illustrated by the ex-NYTimes writer who admitted he was told by his editors to supply a person to provide pre-arranged quotes instead of asking for honest responses.

    Harkin (fabf46)

  10. Stop.

    Who would cross the bridge of death must answer me these questions three.

    What is your name?

    Sir Paper of Tiger

    What is your quest?

    TO drain the swamp of the liberal media and bureaucratic government nexus in order to make room for a new conservative paradyme.

    Which would you have drained first?

    Um. I don’t know that. AYYYYYYYYYYHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

    papertiger (c8116c)

  11. Harkin, sir, you need to comment here on a regular basis — I demand it! (LOL)

    You’re absolutely right, it all boils down to the “facts” and “knowledge” that students “learn” in the first grade, the fifth grade, the eighth grade, et al.
    And then by the time they’re late in high school and contemplating applying to college and pursuing a particular major of interest, the students are inherently the sum total of all the education and indoctrination they’ve received over the course of their school career.
    So, the liberal mindset is effectively their default position.

    We can only hope that people will come around to reality once they spend a few years in the real world, in the real workforce, in the real marketplace, etc.
    We probably can’t expect that too many students will emerge from college as pragmatic conservatives on account of the fact they’ve spent the past 17 years as hothouse flowers in a liberal greenhouse. We can only hope that real-life experience will help them un-do the damage of their “education.”

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  12. Which would you rather see drained: the media swamp or the government swamp?

    Yes

    JP (f1742c)

  13. The government works for me – I pay their bills – they should behave like it.

    The media works for someone else. It’s not my swamp to drain. That’s not to say I disapprove of Trump’s verbal assault on the perpetrators of fake news. More power to him!

    I saw a headline this morning suggesting that Trump plans a scaling back of the federal government on a truly massive scale. I can only hope.

    Ps. That was a very interesting idea for a poll. I just assumed everybody would be with me. Even Pauline Kael agreed.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  14. Cruz Supporter – thanks for the kind words.

    I’m deemed unfit for the Living Room but I will keep posting here when so compelled.

    Harkin (fabf46)

  15. So this is the “gloves off” comments section? Do I have that right? Great! Let me begin,

    Pat, you ignorant slut . . .

    – this is going to be fun –

    ThOR (c9324e)

  16. Harkin’s right about education and government runs education. Why not compromise and drain the government swamp and just shoot the journalists?

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  17. Rev Hoagie, you’re not going to be allowed to enjoy tea and crumpets in the living room if you continue to have outbursts like that! (LOL)

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  18. The first enables the latter, its a vein diagram. Add to ego’s like levick, crump Julian, cair splc aclu.

    narciso (d1f714)

  19. I have the exact opposite reaction to Harkin’s supposition, though I certainly respect where he/she is coming from. Harkin suggests that if we drain the media swamp first then a better media will demand a more honest government. I think the reverse may be true: if we get rid of all the time-servers and professional bureaucrats in Washington and replace them with citizen legislators and civic-minded citizens, the media will lose its power to try to shape events in return for exclusive access. When all the “change the world” mushminded progressives stop flocking to Washington to try to reshape our daily lives, then maybe the “comfort the afflicted/afflict the comfortable” journalists will find someone else to pester as well.

    JVW (2b202c)

  20. I mentioned the middle ones because they were a part of this fraud trek astroturf, the aclu and crew are part of the next one.

    narciso (d1f714)

  21. But I also agree with Harkin and Hoagie that changing the culture of education is crucial to this too.

    JVW (2b202c)

  22. JVW, thanks for excluding me! (ROTFLMAO)

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  23. William arkin now with NBC news was previously with greenpeace, the whole sores archipelago, nrdc human rights watch Joyce foundation (gun registration)

    narciso (d1f714)

  24. #23 narciso,
    And George Stephanopolous, previously with the Clinton White House, is a monitor of civility and fair play during a Presidential election when there’s another Clinton on the ballot. (LOL)

    I can’t imagine a world where Karen Hughes or Karl Rove is in an equitable position.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  25. I guess I guess I’ve been relegated to the children’s table, too. I’ll post here:

    There were two important changes in journalism after WWII – aside from technological change – and they are not unrelated changes.

    First and foremost, journalism stopped being a trade and became professionalized. Journalists were no longer trained on the job but, instead, were trained at the university.

    The second change, promoted by the professionalization, was the idea that journalists should be fair and dispassionate in their reporting. In the pre-war model, journalists worked for publications that had clear political connections and objectives. The post-war model promoted the fiction that the media was unbiased.

    The change in how journalism marketed itself was furthered by the monopoly-promoting high cost of entry into the new and growing medium of television. Before the war, anyone could join the media fray by becoming a newspaper publisher at relatively minimal cost – just buy a press and some newsprint. After the war and the advent of television, print journalism began its long decline and there was only limited access to the airwaves, especially television. (This is precisely the reason why less expensive radio airwaves became a bastion for conservative thought).

    The idea that journalism is capable of being unbiased has no historical precedence. It has always been a swamp and it will always be a swamp. Walter Cronkite’s “That’s the way it is,” is simply laughable.

    The way out of the swamp is the same as it would be for any monopolized business sector: bust the trusts. The answer is not to expect the media leopard to change its spots, but, instead, to promote the entry of media sources with alternate political orientations, with which to expand the diversity of political thought available to media consumers. Fox and Breitbart News have moved us in this direction. It is the reason we need Jim Hofts in the White House Briefing Room. It is not that the Gateway Pundits of this world add to the fairness of the media, but that they add to the balance.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  26. Said it for years. If we had real newspapers we’d get a better class of politicians.

    J Cass (5a4596)

  27. But what you really need is honest people.

    J Cass (5a4596)

  28. The media is a goulash that loves to stew.

    The government is the swamp.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. And Marie larf will be commenting for fox, lol,

    Yes there are few objective reporters in the press pool ask Neil munro.

    narciso (d1f714)

  30. Not to mention the naic and the plowshares group, which enabled musavian, a former regime negotiator who had admittedly lied to the p 5 + 1 group

    narciso (d1f714)

  31. I voted for media, because they have too much influence and create false narratives. The only power I have as a person is to turn it off or tune it out… until it hits the streets.

    The politicians and officials in our Government have a shelf life.

    G (f85a02)

  32. @17.Rev Hoagie, you’re not going to be allowed to enjoy tea and crumpets in the living room if you continue to have outbursts like that! (LOL)

    LOL CS. More bemusing is the ‘invite’ to ‘pragmatist Trumpers’ to debate conservative ideologues in the ‘living room’ from a host who has made it clear he loathes Trump. The Donald is a crumbbum to be sure, but obviously preferable to the stale loaf alternative. I get the pleasure of debate– it’s a lawyer thing, suffering two in my family– but the pragmatists won. The ideologues were defeated so even with Marquess of Queensbury rules in place, why punch down.

    Misery sees company. Just hope it doesn’t devolve into an echo chamber. IMHO their future is in Pence. Hell, he took the VP oath on Reagan’s Bible.

    “Tea and crumpets; what a combination… get my bottle out of that lower drawer, willya?” – Cuthbert J. Twillie [WC Fields] ‘My Little Chickadee’ 1940

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  33. I voted for “Government”, on the grounds that to really drain that swamp it would be necessary to get the government to stop all kinds of activities for which it has only the sketchiest of Constitutional justifications, no discernible talent, and /or a long record of persistent and ignominious failure. That would drastically reduce the importance of the government, which would in turn practically reduce the importance of the media.

    Or we could go with “Tie them back to back and push ’em out of the plane at 40,000 feet. Who hits the ground first? Does it REALLY matter?”

    C. S. P. Schofield (99bd37)

  34. I’d say the media swamp is the bigger issue, but it isn’t just news media, it’s all media, especially entertainment media. Toxic culture is more damaging than bad politics because it removes the political oversight of people…this is why Hank Johnson can get re-elected by his voters.

    Dejectedhead (0c7c2f)

  35. I guess I guess I’ve been relegated to the children’s table, too. I’ll post here:

    If you have then you relegated yourself. Also, I do not consider this a children’s table.

    Patterico (572840)

  36. ‘Little Marco’ has caved.

    Says he will support Tillerson’s nom. Committee debate and vote in progress.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. Dejectedhead (0c7c2f) — 1/23/2017 @ 1:34 pm

    You are quite correct. Entertainment can cloak ideology in romantic, heroic, and idyllic illusions. Disarming, charming, and seducing the people into a slavery of the senses.

    felipe (023cc9)

  38. I tried to post this comment at the other blog and nothing. You might check the moderation filter.

    What am I to infer?

    ThOR (c9324e)

  39. Those who are all agita over general flynns contacts with ambassador kislak, will get right on parsi and mousavaians contacts.

    narciso (d1f714)

  40. What am I to infer?
    ThOR (c9324e) — 1/23/2017 @ 1:49 pm

    Did you start your comment with “Patterico, you ignorant…?”

    felipe (023cc9)

  41. Both obviously.

    I don’t think you can drain the government swamp without first dealing with the media swamp.

    But if we drastically reduced the power of the federal g8vernment, that would cause both swamps to lose interest.

    Locke (e40e62)

  42. Logistically, Breitbart was right when he said politics is downstream of culture.

    That makes the choice obvious.

    Locke (e40e62)

  43. No, I saved that one for this comments section.

    I was just trying to get into the spirit of things.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  44. The Media thinks it’s the Government, and the Government thinks it’s the Media. Drain ’em both.

    LTMG (db4d8d)

  45. Here’s a problem I have with your choices — what do they mean??

    They are catch-phrases, slogans. They have whatever meaning the user/listener ascribes to them.

    How would one go about “draining the government swamp”? Fire half the work force?

    Didn’t the public just fire pretty much all of upper management? They have to be replaced, so who goes next to constitute the “drainage”?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  46. Tillerson clears committee 11/10.

    ‘Little Marco’ disciplined; falls in line.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  47. I tried to post this comment at the other blog and nothing. You might check the moderation filter.

    I checked, ThOR, and it didn’t go into moderation, it went into spam. Don’t ask me why. In any case, I’m fishing it out now. Hopefully that will white-list you for other comments there.

    JVW (2b202c)

  48. Asra Nomani is the source for some of this analysis.

    narciso (d1f714)

  49. Spam? I can see that.

    Thank you.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  50. I don’t know how this experiment will work out, but I can see posting on both.

    Of course, I’m the guy whose favorite Batman character was portrayed by Tommy Lee Jones.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  51. I don’t have a favorite batman.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  52. Guess it blows to be me.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  53. JVW SAID:
    “I have the exact opposite reaction to Harkin’s supposition, though I certainly respect where he/she is coming from. Harkin suggests that if we drain the media swamp first then a better media will demand a more honest government. I think the reverse may be true…..”

    Actually what I said was that I assumed most people would think that (according to the poll so far I’m wrong on that for these commenters) but (and you apparently agree with me here) that the education swamp is the real source for both government and media corruption.

    Harkin (fabf46)

  54. I’d appreciate it peeps would pronounce it So-wamp.

    it’s the same swamp

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 1/23/2017 @ 10:47 am

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  55. After hearing conservative ideologue Krauthammer oafishly hurl a partisan slur at Schumer for reading Sullivan Ballou’s letter at the inaugural and literally dismissing it and sarcastically belittling Ballou with a quip, perhaps parts of the media swamp are overdue for a draining– or certainly fresh water. Utterly astonishing. And bewildering.

    Apparently the Old Kraut hasn’t seen Ken Burns’ ‘The Civil War.

    The age of the Pragmatists has arrived. Time to put that aging conservative ideologue out to pasture with Will and Rollins.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  56. Neither, until we get environmental impact statements from the EPA, the Forestry Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the National Marine Fisheries Service, the Army Corps of Engineers, the National Parks Service, the U.S. Merchant Marine, FEMA, the State Dam Safety Association, the Department of the Interior, the respective local water reclamation and sanitation districts, and the Alligator Ranchers Protective Association.

    Serious answer: The government of course. The media we fight in the marketplace of ideas and just plain ignoring them is probably the best tactic.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. “Elisah Cummings! One of the most important people in Washington today!” – Chris Matthews

    Feel a tingle?

    “Swamp Fox, Swamp Fox, tail on his hat… nobody knows where the Swamp Fox at…” – ‘The Swamp Fox’ [Leslie Nielsen] Walt Disney Productions, 1959

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. You know who can alter your perception of reality? Not the media. People with small hands.

    I’ve been watching “The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly” for fifty years. Clint Eastwood and Eli Wallach carried the same revolver — a .36 caliber 1851 Colt Navy with theatrical makeup. In Eastwood’s hands, it looks like what it is. In Wallach’s stubby little hands, it looks much bigger like a cross between a .44 Army and a Dragoon. For years, I wondered what its historical counterpart was before I figured it out.

    nk (dbc370)

  59. @58- Alternative facts!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. The major problem is the lack of rigorous education regarding our founding principles and a failure to protect and defend the constitution. Ultimately, the people elect their representatives, and those representatives mold the courts and the bureaucracy. If the people choose poorly, due to ignorance, apathy or self-interest, they introduce a cancerous invader into the body politic that will metastasize and eventually consume it. The problem begins with the quality of the voting citizen. Correctly educating and informing people is key, therefore I would choose to focus on media and education, along with respect for morals and good character. This should naturally lead to a better class of politicians.

    The bad news is that the constitutional framework that could have controlled, minimized or corrected the worst influences of human greed and power, no longer really exists. It was cracked by the addition of an unrestrained income tax, then busted by the creation of an unconstitutional federal entitlement state. A huge activist class is now firmly entrenched in the unelected and largely unaccountable courts, bureaucracy and education establishment, serving an equally entrenched class of citizen clients, all too ready to sell their votes. I really don’t see any way to put that genie back in the bottle.

    Damselfly (ca63ab)

  61. I’d rather drain the media swamp, but given the 1st Amendment I have no idea how to do that. It is at least POSSIBLE to drain the government swamp — although I am cynical — so I voted for that.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  62. True, but consider in the 80s, bill Myers at pbs savaged Reagan for his modest trimming of the budget, in the 90s Connie Chung among others did the same to newt,

    narciso (d1f714)

  63. I think that the first step to restoring power to the states leading to a smaller and constitutional federal government would be to repeal the 17th Amendment. When the states lost their representation by the popular election of senators, that is really when the federal govt. began its uncontrollable growth and usurpation of states powers. The Senate was meant to control the impulsiveness of the House of Representatives that were elected by the popular vote. They were to serve as a check on the federal govt. and to represent their states sovereignty. I believe that unless this occurs, neither swamp can really be drained. After all, we are a union of 50 independent states and not one huge homogeneous country, and were never meant to be by the founding fathers.

    Yoda jr (310909)

  64. You might even say that we are the original United Nations.

    Yoda jr (310909)

  65. “Politics is downstream of culture.” – Andrew Breitbart.

    Media is where the culture lives. If the culture changes, politics and government will follow. If the culture does not change, politics and government may be temporarily shifted, but will always revert.

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)


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