Patterico's Pontifications

12/7/2016

Trump: We’ll Work Something Out with DREAMers That Will Make People Happy and Proud

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:00 am



As part of his being extolled as TIME’s “Person of the Year,” Donald Trump gave TIME a quote about the great deal he is going to make with the DREAMers he told everyone would be subject to deportation:

In an interview with Time magazine announcing him as “Person of the Year,” Trump didn’t go into specifics but signaled that he could find a way to accommodate the Dreamers.

“We’re going to work something out that’s going to make people happy and proud,” Trump told the magazine. “They got brought here at a very young age, they’ve worked here, they’ve gone to school here. Some were good students. Some have wonderful jobs. And they’re in never-never land because they don’t know what’s going to happen.”

The interview notes that the president-elect did not back off his promise from the campaign trail to rescind Obama’s executive actions. And without details, it’s difficult to divine exactly what policy Trump would support once he is sworn in and has to face this issue.

Trump pledged to rescind Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA (along with Obama’s other, much broader executive amnesty, DAPA) on his first day in office. Here is a quote from the immigration plan on his site:

Donald J. Trump’s 10 Point Plan to Put America First

. . . .

5. Immediately terminate President Obama’s two illegal executive amnesties. All immigration laws will be enforced – we will triple the number of ICE agents. Anyone who enters the U.S. illegally is subject to deportation. That is what it means to have laws and to have a country.

There it is in black and white — until they whisk it away, that is.

It’s worth noting that the quote given to TIME 1) does not say he will break his pledge, and 2) is a quote Trump gave the media at a time he was being lionized. It reminds me when he told David Letterman that he was “100 percent right” after Letterman said “go ahead and burn the flag” if you want to, because it’s free speech. Trump did the thing where he jutted out his chin like a child’s attempt to appear thoughtful, and dutifully nodded along and agreed with the liberal sentiment . . . because he was in New York, and that’s what you say there.

So the fact that he says something to an audience that wants to hear it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

In this, of course, Trump is like any politician who seeks to please his audience. Of course, more than most politicians, he is accustomed to saying blatantly contradictory things and BS’ing his way out of it.

Here’s the thing. Trump can say one thing in front of his anti-immigration fans and another to the media, but on his first day in office he will have to choose. Much as he’d like to, there is no way of issuing a tough executive order and not having the media find out, or failing to do so and not having his fans find out.

My guess is he fails to, breaks his pledge, and counts on his fans to back him up. He’ll say he’s getting rid of the criminal DREAMers and leaving the rest here. And his fans will eat it up.

Or maybe he’ll repeal DACA on day one. In which case, the stuff he just told TIME Magazine was a giant mound of happy horse droppings. Unless ripping away the safe harbor for “good students” with “wonderful jobs” is what he means when he says he will “work something out that’s going to make people happy and proud.”

I don’t really have a dog in this fight. I have always found DREAMers sympathetic, since it’s not their fault they are here illegally. My concern has always been about unintended consequences. I have not forgotten that swarm of children coming from Central America in the summer of 2014, many dying along the way, in large part because Central American television was telling people: “Go to America with your child, you won’t be turned away.”

Like every seemingly kind thing government does, DACA has unintended consequences, and it has doubtless killed a lot of children. You’ll probably never know their names or know their stories, though, so we can safely ignore it while discussing what to do.

But I do feel sympathy for the kids that are here through no fault of their own. So as far as this policy goes, I’m just a bystander with no strong opinion.

I’m just in it to watch the cognitive dissonance from people who applauded his pledge to repeal DACA. It will be interesting to watch those same people who cheered one Trump policy . . . spin on a dime and applaud the complete opposite.

But then, it always is.

[Cross-posted at RedState.]

151 Responses to “Trump: We’ll Work Something Out with DREAMers That Will Make People Happy and Proud”

  1. To quote Ted Cruz, “When you break the law, bad things happen.”

    Ingot (1de9ec)

  2. On Ted Cruz – If he were Central American instead of Cuban – he actually would have been the perfect deporter-in-chief in the same way Ben Carson might be the perfect butcher of HUD.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  3. ..or he doesnt rescind DACA, but sends vans, buses and if need be APCs out to all the jails in the spirit of one of our host’s most famous catchphrases, with plenty of frog-walked shaved head full-body tattooed perps.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  4. Is naming John Kelly DHS Secretary a tell in either direction? At least they didnt nominate the Texan McCaul, but they also didnt nominate Kobach (too much alt-right in past?) . I also think the OSU incident shifted the focus back onto islamic terrorism.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  5. Mr. Trump is so good he’s gonna help America do a policy on these lil dreamsicles then we can move forward

    i’m so excited!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. Well, it sounds like he wants Congress to pass a law legalizing them.

    There’s a majority in Congress to do that, but the law would have to be passed with almost all Democrats voting for it and a small number of Republican votes.

    You might work out something that would get a majority of Republians too, but it’s very hard to see, and what makes this particularly difficult is that this would have to be practically the first law the new Congress passed, even before repealing Obamacare, which they haven’t got a plan for, the plan being to repeal it to take effect in the beginning of 2018 or 2019 while Congress figures out a new law.

    Maybe a temporary stopgap measure?

    The biggest problem is the logic trap the Republicans are in. They’re really for amnesty for people brought here as children, but don’t wnat to legalize it for children who will brought to the United States illegally in the future.

    The way to do that is to claim it won’t happen again because only an insignificant number of people will ever be in this situation again, but there’s no way of saying that.

    From a Wall Street Journal article today:

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-first-immigration-test-whether-to-deport-those-who-arrived-as-children-1481048911

    We would regard it as a knife in the back to the people who voted for Trump if they did anything other than cancel DACA” on the first day or first week of the new administration, said Roy Beck, executive director of Numbers USA, which favors restrictions on legal and illegal immigration.

    But the prospect of dismantling Mr. Obama’s executive action is prompting a wave of protests on college campuses and anger from immigration advocates. It is also generating anxiety for people enrolled in the program, who are worried they have given their contact information to the government, which could use it to find and deport them. More than 500 university presidents have signed a letter calling for the program to be upheld, calling it a “moral imperative and a national necessity.”

    Dismantling DACA also would spark a backlash in Congress, where Democrats and some Republicans have long argued for giving some protections to the younger immigrants brought to the U.S. as children by their parents. Mr. Obama, too, has lobbied the president-elect to keep the program in place.

    “I’m not comfortable with deporting families and breaking up families,” said Sen. Shelley Moore Capito (R., W.Va.). She said she wants to study the issue further.

    There’s not much time.

    The only thing they can do is temporarily extend DACA, by Act of Congress, while Donald Trump works on his miracle solution and squares the circle.

    I guess that can work if Jeff Sessions endorses it.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  7. You better give Sessions something else juicy – IRS, Clinton Foundation, Clintons themselves – in return.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  8. 5. happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/7/2016 @ 10:22 am

    Mr. Trump is so good he’s gonna help America do a policy on these lil dreamsicles then we can move forward

    i’m so excited!

    All I can see is:

    Step 1: Revoke, or prepare to revoke, DACA.

    Step 2: Propose Congress temporarily extend it for one or two years.

    Step 3: And get Jeff Sessions to endorse it.

    Step 4: And Paul Ryan to promise to push it through the House.

    Step 5: And get Charles Schumer on board, too. Maybe combine it with some other bill Republicans like, like a big tax cut, which the Democrats might otherwise filibuster. The protests from colleg students then will be against Democrats if Schumer blocks it.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  9. Is hair on fire a good look, kobach’s focus is singularly immigration which a facet in homeland defense.

    narciso (d1f714)

  10. “We’re going to work something out that’s going to make people happy and proud,”

    Perhaps it’s an all-expenses-paid one-way trip to Mexico.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  11. 7. urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/7/2016 @ 10:28 am

    You better give Sessions something else juicy – IRS, Clinton Foundation, Clintons themselves – in return.

    He’s done that.

    Didn’t you notice, Donald Trump appointed a special prosecutor the other day:

    http://observer.com/2016/11/preet-bhara-says-he-agreed-to-stay-on-under-the-donald-trump-administration/

    U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara declared after an hour-long meeting with President-elect Donald Trump that he will likely remain in his corruption-busting post in the next administration.

    Bharara—who recently slapped federal charges on some of Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s closest associates and is probing Mayor Bill de Blasio’s relationships with political contributors—said that he will likely remain in his position, noting that he also met with Alabama Sen. Jeff Sessions, whom Trump has picked to serve as U.S. Attorney General. He said Sessions requested that he keep his job, which oversees Manhattan, the Bronx and Westchester.

    “I said I would absolutely consider staying on. I agreed to stay on. I have already spoken to Senator Sessions, who as you know is the nominee to be the attorney general,” Bharara told reporters in front of the elevator bank at Trump Tower after the meeting. “He also asked that I stay on, and so I expect that I will be continuing to work at the Southern District.”

    While that was announced only last Wednesday, this was probably also set in place before Thanksgiving.

    Bharara is invesigating Anthony Weiner.

    Weiner has no money – he had to limit his stay at the sex rehabilitation place he went to – it was paid for by money his parents raised by taking out a mortgage. He’s practically unemplpyable. he’s officially separated from his wife – getting money from her could be a problem. Weiner’s best prospects is to write a tell all book. That’s financially. And legally wat are his best options??

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  12. He doesn’t say which people will be “made happy and proud” either.

    Or how he’s going to clear up what “is going to happen”.

    Since it’s entirely content-free, I’m not sure we can say it contradicts anything he has said before.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  13. More from the Wall Street Journal article:

    Sen. Dick Durbin (D., Ill.), an author of the original legislation, told reporters he was teaming up with Mr. Graham on the issue and that they hoped to produce a bill as soon as this week, though it is unlikely to make it to the Senate floor this year.

    For now, Mr. Durbin has been giving frequent speeches on the issue and lobbying Senate Republicans since the election to back legislation that would allow these young immigrants to keep their work visas.

    Even some anti-immigration activists say they could accept protecting Dreamers if it was done in legislation and in exchange for enacting tougher immigration-enforcement measures. Dan Stein, president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, said the young people are “a great leverage point” to move a vigorous enforcement bill.

    “We understand the DACA people will be viewed by the public as having the strongest equities of the population here illegally,” he said. “But those decisions have to be made by the Congress.”

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  14. 10. Google “La XV de Rubi” and you might be on to something.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  15. @Sammy Finkelman:Preet Bharara

    The guy who slapped the gag order on Reason and demanded the identities of commenters.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  16. And who put d’souza in jail.

    narciso (d1f714)

  17. @narcisco: Lizard people at all levels. I’d have preferred an unqualified crony.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  18. Reason? The L.A.-based Reason? That’s like Golden Dawn wasting its kicks on christian sub-saharan Africans.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  19. They still won’t offer sacrifices to the skydragin, but can we not consider time, fake news,

    narciso (d1f714)

  20. @narcsico:They still won’t offer sacrifices to the skydragin

    If by this you mean climate change, they accept the science behind it, like virtually every skeptic writing on it does.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  21. If you want an area of concern, consider there the soft bank comes aromas Jordan scachtel examines.

    narciso (d1f714)

  22. Mayor Emanuel talked again today with President Elect Trump–this time for 45 minutes in person in New York at Trump Tower along with Reince and Bannon–and then Rahm met separately with Bannon for another 20 minutes. The Dreamers and Sanctuary Cities were definitely the menu item.

    Anyone who knows anything about Chicago knows that the shootings and horrific headline murder rate has everything to do with the criminal gangs that are out of control. Young undocumented men and girls affiliated with the Latin Kings and their growing offshoots are shooting it out with the Black Disciples and their offshoots, street by street, block by block in certain areas of the far South Side and West sides over control of the drug trade and fencing of stolen goods. Innocents are increasingly getting cut down in the crossfire. The Sanctuary City designation has exacerbated this bloody tension by harboring actual violent criminals mixed in with the good ones. Rahm’s former Police Chief, Gerry McCarthy knew it, but he was the one fired (sacrificial lamb) over the way the MacDonald shooting was handled. Rahm knows it, too, but he can’t say so without wrecking his party’s Dreamer policy.

    If Trump and Rahm and other big city Democrat mayors can agree on a way to identify, isolate and get rid of most of the illegal gangbangers, while finding a way and crafting a process for the soldier/student/employed Dreamers to stay and eventually become productive citizens, it will be a win for everybody. This type of potential deal or solution would not have been possible under the Obama administration’s approach to immigration and illegal criminals. But it may be able to be done under Trump with everybody in the immigration landscape getting something they want. I hope so.

    elissa (ed6ffb)

  23. @narcisco: there the soft bank comes aromas Jordan scachtel examines.

    I can’t tell if this is you being cryptic as usual, or auto-correct.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  24. My vote for Trump wasn’t contingent on removing all Illegals, that’s a foolish dream. Make the Sanctuary cities feel some consequence, enforce immigration laws, deport criminal illegals, make the border more secure.

    SiscoJ (bae93a)

  25. These things take time, both for logistical reasons and to get people used to the idea (and to higher costs for more incompetent labor). Start with the felons, then the misdemeanants, then the recently arrived, then the ones who’ve been here longer, and then you get to the ones who got here as kids.

    nk (dbc370)

  26. Around ats no goad elissa, ht conservative review, the long and short if it, is a wealth fund run by the kingdom’s crown prince.

    narciso (d1f714)

  27. @narcisco: You need a real keyboard. You are so terse that there is no extraneous information to allow us to fill in the errors from context.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  28. Yes that was the sessions plan, not unlike what balladur attempted in the in the mid 90s

    narciso (d1f714)

  29. Elissa:

    Actually, in Chicago, gang conflict tends to be intrA-racial (unlike Los Angeles of recent vintage – but even Jerry Brown 2.0 turned Crenshaw back into a Bloods v. Crips black-on-black crimefest with his criminal justice reform initiatives), and as loath as I am to defend one gang’s merits versus the other, the LKs actually kept the even worse MS 13 from establishing a foothold in the City – Surs/13 tend to pop up in outer Cook and the collar counties but dont have the heft (yet — I hope never) to fight the legacy gangs of either color out there either. Most Chicago Latino gang members are citizens, most likely the progeny of the 1986 class of amnestees, but also lots of Puerto Ricans and Mexican-Americans from the pre-wars era in neighborhoods that stubbornly never gentrify i.e. Back of the Yards, South Chicago, West Humboldt Park. As far as the Black gang crime it has become highly decentralized and been characterized by beefs between rappers and people from adjacent blocks but within the same neighborhood gang (e.g BDs, VLs, Gangster Disciples), much more unpredictable and scary than competing large blocs. Blacks are also much more likely to do the crimes against tourists which really get the Mayor afflutter.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  30. narciso, I recognized my name but otherwise have no idea what else you said or meant, or if it related to my earlier comment. I thought I had become fairly proficient in deciphering your posts, and I try to because I want to understand what you are saying–but lately not so much. Please help!!

    elissa (ed6ffb)

  31. Sorry I was addressing gabriel, but your name popped up.

    narciso (d1f714)

  32. For me, what it comes down to is, does Trump at least try to keep his campaign promises, or is he just another lying politician?

    So far, regarding what he’s actually DONE since the election, I see no real problems (For example, his actual announced cabinet picks seem okay). On things like the Carrier deal, I have grave qualms about how it was done… but Trump did what he said he’d do, and I approve of that.

    So, I’m willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt until he actually does something on this “Dreamer” issue, or at least makes an official pronouncement.

    But, of course, I’ll unreservedly call him out as a con artist and a liar *if* he goes against the explicit policies he ran on – because that is exactly what he’d be.

    Time will tell.

    Arizona CJ (191c8a)

  33. President-elect Trump should be proud– Luce created TIME’s ‘Man Of The Year’ aka ‘Person Of The Year’ issue merely as a marketing ‘gimmick’ to move magazines in what was at the ‘time’ a slow sales period.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. No one who came here illegally as an adult should be able to become a citizen. Other stuff is negotiable, but not that.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  35. Yet another good appointment by Trump: Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt to run the EPA. HotAir links to a NYT article that is a wonderful inverse barometer of Pruitt’s qualifications.

    As for the Dreamers, I’m withholding judgment. Maybe Trump will make me happy and proud, though I’m not counting on it. I am – much to my surprise – happy and proud of most of the moves he has made so far. And even if his DACA compromise doesn’t make me proud, I’m willing to take some bad along with the good, which, at this point, there seems to be quite a bit of.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  36. If we didn’t have such an extensive welfare state then I bet most people wouldn’t care about these individuals coming into the country (outside of vetting for national security concerns). The fact that so many can come and immediately receive government assistance on the backs of hard working Americans is the problem, more so than if Carrier builds HVAC supplies in Mexico.

    Reading each of Trump’s statements since the election is like adding a letter in a game of H-O-R-S-E, but in this game the letters spell out W-E-T-O-L-D-Y-O-U-S-O.

    Sean (1d5074)

  37. If we didn’t have such an extensive welfare state then I bet most people wouldn’t care

    Good luck with that.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  38. The fact that statements do NOT equate to actions is a lesson some have a difficult time learning.

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  39. Tiffy tifosa would be all over this… amirite?

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  40. Not that I’m complaining, but wut happen 2 perry?

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  41. Trump wins, perry and #NeverTrump hardest hit.

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  42. Since Trump has been all over the map on immigration, I’d say that the folks who voted for him heard what they wanted to hear and blocked all else out.

    WarrenPeese (563c2b)

  43. It’s a complex issue and difficult to apply absolute standards to every situation. Take the colonization of North America as an example. We simply moved into territory occupied by others. 400+ years later, we’ve established roots and contributed to the general welfare of the land. What is a fair solution to the grievances of Native Americans whose land was confiscated outright or whose ancestors entered treaties that were never honored by the US government?

    Should we all leave and begin negotiations?

    Should we all be allowed to stay and carry on as if nothing was ever amiss?

    Should we make an attempt to renegotiate the terms of the broken treaties and outright confiscations of property?

    Has too much time elapsed, so some sort of statue of limitations has expired? If so, when does it expire for the current illegal immigrants?

    Roger Williams (founder of Rhode Island) raised the question of having simply taken the land from the Native Americans, and advocated fair negotiations and compensation for it, and was invited to leave Massachusetts.

    I’m not advocating that we all abandon our property. Sins of the fathers and all that. The point I’m making is that we are in a similar situation as that of the generations of inhabitants of the US, whose ancestors were the ones who took up residence without legal permission to do so.

    It’s complex, it’s enormous, and it’s personal. We all benefited from the colonization of the continent and the expansion of the US territory, whether our ancestors were directly involved or not. Whatever solutions we advance, I think we should bear in mind our own history and what we perceive as fair in light of that history.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  44. If Trump secures the boarders and nothing else, he will have done more than his two predecessors, and will have been worth the vote.

    I am totally sympathetic to kids who came here at young ages and against the notion that they must be deported.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (5e0a82)

  45. Its the first time we’ve had a Pres and Congress who professed to be committed to both securing the burder AND working out a plan for how to deal with the illegals already in the country. I think Trump supporters would be much more lenient on the latter if there was a serious effort made at dealing with the former.

    Federal policing is a matter of resources and priorities. If there are 12 million illegals in the country, you can’t process them out all at once. So you dedicate your resources to the highest priority targets, and the others remain unmolested for now. Some might decide to depart on their own accord.

    DREAMers would be near the end of the line. I think nearly all Trump supporters would favor normalization of those who were brought here as children, and have never known another home country.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  46. so the recount in Michigan has been halted for now.

    narciso (d1f714)

  47. Not the colonization argument! windbag, indeed!

    How ’bout this argument. If large groups of Americans crossed the border illegally into Mexico, took up illegal residence and then began competing for jobs held by Mexicans, who would object if Mexico, acting consistently with their lawful sovereign powers, expelled those Americans?

    Nobody . . . at least nobody who respects the rule of law.

    How complex is that?

    ThOR (c9324e)

  48. I am not without sympathy for the children of lawbreakers of any kind, but I see no reason the children of those lawbreakers should benefit from their parents’ criminality.

    Perhaps we should let the children of drug dealers keep the profits of their parents’ dealing? Depriving them of that money is a real hardship. My heart bleeds . . .

    I don’t think so.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  49. @ThOR,

    How complex is that?

    It’s not at all complex and not at all the same situation we have here. Nice try, though.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  50. Thoroughly enjoyed watching Tucker Carlson ride congresscritter Adam Schiff (D-CA) hard and then put him away wet…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  51. Oh… wait…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  52. The fact that statements do NOT equate to actions is a lesson some have a difficult time learning.

    Trump’s statements, you mean.

    I know, right? It’s like there’s still people who think he’s gonna do stuff he said he would.

    You and I know better though!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  53. @ThOR,

    Perhaps we should let the children of drug dealers keep the profits of their parents’ dealing?

    Since life is so black-and-white for you, let us know when you’ve abandoned your property, signed the deed over to the original owners (as far as can be reasonably determined), so we can be inspired by your commitment to justice. Until then…well…I think it’s just noise. Afterall, why should you benefit from the profits of your ancestors’ criminal dealings?

    windbag (47f3d7)

  54. How ’bout this argument. If large groups of Americans crossed the border illegally into Mexico, took up illegal residence and then began competing for jobs held by Mexicans, who would object if Mexico, acting consistently with their lawful sovereign powers, expelled those Americans
    Heh.
    Some Americans did that, although they entered legally and settled legally. Then Mexico tried to make them live under Mexican law.* Final result: Texas is one of the United States of America, not one of los Estados Unidos de Mexico.

    *That of course is a bit oversimplified, but essentially the American settlers thought they were guaranteed some exemptions, and found out the Mexican government had different ideas.

    Kishnevi (35dd1e)

  55. Moreover there is an issue of reciprocity, Mexico lets very few settle, except for leftist guerrillas back in the 70s and 80s

    narciso (d1f714)

  56. I believe you are conflating the meanings of the words “justice” and “more.”

    Let me give you an example: I want justice more.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  57. Hey windbag, exactly what “criminal dealings” are you falsely accusing ThOR’s family of? And what makes you privy to this information?

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  58. I see you’re still struggling with that liberal self-loathing thing. Good luck with that.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  59. @Rev. Hoagie, if you’d start with my original post at 3:04 you could probably see what I’m talking about.

    @ThOR, self loathing liberal? No, not at all. That’s odd, though, for you to say. In my experience, it’s the self-loathing liberal who falls back on the ad hominem attacks when they either can’t follow the conversation or have nothing to counter the opposing view.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  60. ”’Tis the season to be jolly, Patterico. I like his picks. I can give him a few months to demonstrate what he can do. I’m generous that way. I’d do the same for Cruz or any of the other R folks who aspired to the office.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  61. They like liver ice cream, I prefer rocky road.

    narciso (d1f714)

  62. I live in the oikophobia captial of the world – the SF Bay Area – so I know exactly where windbag is coming from, at least metaphorically. His is the afactual, pop drivel spooned up to our children at colleges and universities across the land. With age and experience, most grow out of it.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  63. @ThOR, since you won’t engage in conversation, I’m done talking to you. If you’d like, take one more shot, as it’s obvious all you have is insult.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  64. Teh Trump pisss off all the right people and that’s a big plus. It’s YUGE.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  65. Pissesssszzzzszzx

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. It’s good to see moderate Persian and Arab muslims cooperatively engaging in traditional and time honored methods of resolving disputed territorial sovereignty claims in the ME. The decision to turn Mosul into a second New Grozny should allow the vast majority of ISIS radicals to achieve martyrdom within months. Some may regard the proposed solution to the potential refugee problem to be a bit severe but it’s truly a Persian/Arab concern and they do have over 4,000 years of experience with similar situations.

    Rick Ballard (764455)

  67. And like hot air in sails, windbag was gone…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  68. a dispatch from the villains looking at Trumps actions instead of their fellow traveler’s hopeful spin department;

    “Pruitt has sued the EPA, has fought environmental protections enacted by President Obama, and has denied the science of climate change itself. He represents the very threats the EPA should protect against, not be headed by. The California League of Conservation Voters calls on our Senators to reject this wrong-headed nomination which puts our families and communities at risk.
    “California has a unique role to play. We are the sixth largest economy in the world. The decisions we make here, the policies we create, and how we respond to Trump’s attacks on our environmental protections will determine the pace of progress these next four years. We must organize to defend our hard-fought victories because every Californian deserves clean air to breathe and clean water to drink.”

    ###

    It’s like Pearl Harbor Day for them, like somebody made a sneak attack..

    papertiger (c8116c)

  69. It will soon become an impossibility for true believer DJT supporters to avoid the moniker, “Chumpers.”

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  70. Windbag, I went back and read 3:04 and I think I see where you’re coming from. The Conquistadors fought the native Indians of S. America and the Indians lost. The Europeans did the same in N. America and the Indians lost. It’s called conquest and it’s as old as humanity so I guess it’s as legitimate as any other rule. If Mexicans and/or moslems are coming here to conquer us then they absolutely must be thrown out, every man woman and child. Ask the Indians. If they’re coming here to become American and join us then they have to do it legally by our laws or it is as much an invasion as the Conquistadors or the Europeans foisted upon the Indians. Just ask the natives:

    http://joelsgulch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/turn-in-your-weapons.jpg

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  71. We will see, Ed. But one thing I’m GD sure about is it will be a breath of fresh air compared to a Hillary Clinton presidency. But YMMV.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  72. It will soon become an impossibility for true believer DJT supporters to avoid the moniker, “Chumpers.”

    At this rate Ed won’t have any toes left by inauguration day.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  73. I’m totally with you on that, Colonel. DJT has created a space where the Leftists have declared themselves as no other time before. It is glorious.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  74. Yes, I’m sure glad it isn’t that nasty Hillary woman working out something with the Dreamers.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  75. Foreign delegations are patronizing Trump’s hotels when they visit. #NeverTrump dyspeptic!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  76. Take professor Allison adair of Boston college, please

    narciso (d1f714)

  77. Windbag,

    We simply moved into territory occupied by others.

    Actually, the process was lot more bilateral than you seem to understand. Imagine a stone age culture that has both primitive agriculture and the bow and arrow. Now imagine a new tribe that has iron implements for agriculture, domestic animals including horses, and steel for weapons. This new tribe rows ashore in boats from relatively large ships that are both incomprehensible from a technological standpoint to the stone age inhabitants. But the natives have the same innate intelligence as the newcomers and they immediately understand the value of the innovations offered by the newcomers. If the newcomers are able to defend their property, then the natives will be forced to trade for the hoes, shovels, knives, horses, and fire arms, and their side of the bargain will be local knowledge and access to the land. And so it was. Bargains were struck. In a very real sense, the natives benefitted immediately from the transaction, and their descendants benefit even more today.

    BobStewartatHome (822f64)

  78. Off topic but a nod to the Vets of December 7, seventy-five years on.

    Remember Pearl Harbor.

    My 86 yr old mother does. It was her 9/11. Watching ‘Tora, Tora, Tora’ she said in a crisp, lucid tone, ‘I still get angry at them when I watch this.’

    Amen.

    I vividly recally sitting in London’s Leicester Square Odeon on December 7, 1971 with friends watching the same film as it had been just released. Near us were a row of six Japanese executives. And they were… smiling.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  79. Snicker. The 45th Presidency in history: “It coulda been Hillary.”

    nk (dbc370)

  80. @Rev. Hoagie,

    Thanks for the civility.

    Two things we know are not going to happen: deportation of 12 million (give or take a couple of million) illegal aliens currently residing in the US, and full amnesty for those same illegal aliens. So, something in between is going to be the practical approach (not necessarily a solution). All I’m pointing out is that, while past infractions exist, at some point the full consequences of those actions fade.

    Whatever course of action we take, it needs to be practical, feasible, and reasonable. As much as it may grieve many people, some are going to receive amnesty, and are not going to suffer the consequences of breaking our laws. Yes, that means they will be rewarded for their illegal actions. That sucks, but it’s going to happen.

    That is all I’m saying. Where is the offense in that?

    windbag (47f3d7)

  81. You ever wonder why La Malinche, the Nahuas and other coastal tribes marched with Cortez to conquer Montezuma and the Aztecs? It is because the Aztecs, a tribe from northern Mexico, had conquered and colonized Mexico’s great central plain. They were hated by the tribes they subjugated. And for good reason. The Aztecs were especially cruel: you’ve heard about the Aztec rituals in which a shaman digs the live, beating heart out of a human victim? Those weren’t Aztecs being sacrificed; they were members of subjugated tribes. Cortez was their liberator.

    Conquest, colonization, and cruelty are how pre-modern and some modern cultures operate, including those in the new world. It is an established dialectic, which long-predates the European colonization of the new world. The Aztecs conquered the Nahua because they had superior warring skills (the Nahua were undoubtedly conquerors at one time themselves); Cortez conquered the Aztecs because the Spanish has superior warring skills. The French conquered the Spanish. The Mexicans conquered the French. And then there was the Mexican Revolution, which seems to have been won by the PRI.

    So who in this patchwork are the true owners of Mexico and who are the thieves?

    Indian behavior north of the border was no different. If you ever look at a map of North American Indian dialects, you would be surprised by what a crazy quilt it is. So why the bizarre checkerboard of related dialects? It is a product of millennia of conquest and colonization.

    This is simply the way the world has operated from time in memorium. By your way of thinking, those Indians you sympathize with were thieves too.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  82. He seems to be trying to make some good picks for key positions in his administration, Ed. As I’ve said before, we will all see within 6 months whether he will be able to rise above the often risible statements he’s made and be a good man doing good works, helping Americans right this foundering nation.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  83. Eisenhower’s “Operation Wetback” deported over 1 M Mexicans. It is estimated that roughly ten times that number self-deported.

    So why can’t that happen again? Because you say so?

    ThOR (c9324e)

  84. Turner Classic Movies will be showing Tora, Tora, Tora in about a half hour.

    Earlier today, they showed They Were Expendable, Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo, and From Here to Eternity.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  85. During the Revolution various northern Indian tribes and nations chose sides and separately signed on with either the British or the Colonists’ armies depending on who was offering what reward. They served as forest guides and trackers. Both sides asked the Indians to do “wet work” and in many cases the natives were all to happy to oblige.

    elissa (9b16e0)

  86. Almost no one wants to pick a fight with the children (who are now adults) who came here illegally towed behind their parents like those old signs on the freeway to San Diego https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=freeway+sign+of+illegal+immigrants&view=detailv2&&id=54ACF80EE3D796CEE07AE16D376AAD7E9EC62DD6&selectedIndex=30&ccid=jRQ4T9qI&simid=608039754023896103&thid=OIP.M8d14384fda8804aefa21cd0d16d2d934o0&ajaxhist=0

    But I think what Trump was opposed to was the expansion of DACA to include extended family, Doctors, Lawyers, Indian Chiefs

    steveg (5508fb)

  87. Ever wonder who was the first chaplain killed in WW2?

    felipe (023cc9)

  88. ThOR

    By your way of thinking, those Indians you sympathize with were thieves too.

    I’m not sympathizing with the Indians. I cited their treatment as a comparison. I agree that they were thieves. They also destroyed the environment to the best of their Stone Age abilities. Whether or not they had title to the land–in our way of thinking–the fact was that they had possession of it.

    Regardless of who stole what land first, it doesn’t change the larger point I raised, which is that none of us are willing to yield our lands to the descendants of any group that may have had it stolen from them. That being the case, at some point we don’t accept responsibility for the past infraction, and that seems right.

    Turning that same reasoning to our current situation, and given the fact that we are not going to deport 12 million people, how do we sort out who gets a pass and who gets a ticket back to their land of origin? Like it or not, that’s what is going to be decided (or at least debated) in Trump’s term.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  89. #89 felipe, that’s kind of Twilight Zone-ish that you just brought him up, considering I was reading about Fr Aloysius Schmitt about an hour ago!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  90. @BobStewartatHome

    I understand the process. It wasn’t the same everywhere, and I also cited broken treaties on the part of the US government, not just the original settlers. The Indian uprisings and Roger Williams’ stance both suggest that there was both buyer’s remorse on the part of the Indians. As they regretted the presence of the Europeans and began to resist it, it did become a conquest situation as the Europeans pressed further inland, not a happy, lopsided trade deal.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  91. windbag, the government’s short comings were understood and regretted at the time, as you probably know. I don’t think your “larger point”,

    which is that none of us are willing to yield our lands to the descendants of any group that may have had it stolen from them …

    provides any useful guidance to anyone. Everyone can claim the same “greviance”. I foreswore my claim to the English throne decades ago, and I rarely think about today. But others cling to such fantasies. It may well be a fundamental tenant of the muslim creed for world government, and those embarked on conquest may use it to motive the cannon fodder, but it is of little value to anyone who appreciates the hard victories that have been won by western thought, particularly the innovations of the English speaking world, beginning with the Magna Carta. This critical innovation is the idea that the governed “own” their government, whereas the ancient creeds hold that the government owns the people, who are not “individuals” as we understand the term. To fail to understand and support this critical development while harboring childlike dreams of retribution for acts taken against ancestors you never knew, and probably only imagine that you share an unusually large number of genes with, is to be penny wise and pound foolish.

    BobStewartatHome (822f64)

  92. @ThOR

    Eisenhower’s “Operation Wetback” deported over 1 M Mexicans. It is estimated that roughly ten times that number self-deported.

    So why can’t that happen again? Because you say so?

    I’d also maintain that Eisenhower couldn’t lead the Allied Forces and defeat Hitler today. It’s a different world. People don’t have the stomach for difficult tasks. Just because I said it can’t happen again, it’s not because I’m withholding permission to do so (which is the implication of your question), it’s because that’s the reality of our world. We can’t execute a death row inmate in a timely fashion, spending ten years or more on the appeals process. How long of a legal backlog do you think imagine would be created by the attempt to deport 12 million people?

    I would love to remove the freebies that attract the illegal aliens, which would result in more self-deportations, but that’s not going to happen either. Whatever our policy becomes, it must be practical, feasible, and reasonable. Rounding up 12 million people is none of those.

    windbag (47f3d7)

  93. @BobStewartatHome,

    I’m not sure you get what I’m driving at. Your suggestion that I have childlike dreams of retribution is a gross misrepresentation of my position. I’ve not advocated for a return of anyone’s ancestral lands. In fact, just the opposite. I’ve basically said, “Sucks to be you” on that point. Could you not understand that? Let me know if you want me to use smaller words. (Yes, that’s condescension. It’s annoying, isn’t it? Please spare me yours, too.)

    windbag (47f3d7)

  94. “62.”’Tis the season to be jolly, Patterico. I like his picks. I can give him a few months to demonstrate what he can do.”

    Y’know what? It doesn’t matter if you give him a few months or not. Just like it doesn’t matter if some Hollywood actor says “He is not my president.”
    He’ll be sworn in on Jan 20 and will be President for the next 4 years, whether you, I, or the actor approves or not.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  95. “I’m just in it to watch the cognitive dissonance from people who applauded his pledge to repeal DACA. It will be interesting to watch those same people who cheered one Trump policy . . . spin on a dime and applaud the complete opposite.”

    Patterico, et. al., when are you going to wake up to the fact that the election is over and Trump won?

    It’s getting tedious to hear you guys continually try to get people to vote against him. All your carping isn’t going to change anything. And it’s making you look like you’re in the same bed as Kos & Huffpo & all the left/liberal sites.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  96. New York City has a new policy.

    The city will stop retaining the personal information of New Yorkers who apply for the municipal ID program open to undocumented immigrants, part of an effort to protect people in danger of deportation in the upcoming Trump administration.

    Mayor de Blasio and City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito announced on Wednesday that the city is “transitioning to a policy that does not involve the retention of cardholders’ personal background documents.”
    Applicants will still be required to bring back up documents to prove their identity to get a card — which can be used as a legal form of identification in many instances in New York — but the city won’t hold onto it as it had in the past.

    …Meanwhile, a Brooklyn judge Wednesday issued a temporary restraining order prohibiting the city from destroying any ID data as part of a lawsuit filed by several Republican pols. Assemblyman Ron Castorina and Assemblywoman Nicole Malliotakis, both of Staten Island, are suing to keep the records intact.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-dump-undocumented-immigrants-info-deportation-fears-article-1.2902274

    elissa (9b16e0)

  97. 96, yes, just like it doesn’t matter he has 4 years, Freddie. I encourage giving the man a chance, not going Groundhog Day every day like some Johnny-One-Note negative blogger-type.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  98. The smell of burning hair,

    narciso (d1f714)

  99. Dorset appeal coronello. Neither does the doybletalk from a union steward who did little to try to keep the jobs in the states.

    narciso (d1f714)

  100. RE: “So the fact that he says something to an audience that wants to hear it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.”
    “We love our flag, and we don’t like it when we see people ripping up our flag and burning our flag,” Trump said in Fayetteville, N.C., the latest stop on his “thank you” tour.
    “We don’t like it. And we’ll see what we’re gonna do about that, OK? We’re gonna see,” he said.

    — As indicated above, in front of a different audience he says the exact opposite of what he said on Letterman; and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Oh yes, he is every bit the POLITICIAN that his rabid supporters claim he is not. In this particular case he is stirring up the rabble-rousers with rhetoric that will never lead to any concrete action whatsoever. He is preaching to the choir in order to ensure that the choir will continue to sing his praises long & loud.

    Icy (31984d)

  101. He’ll say anything – a common shortcoming among pols and other pleasers. That’s why it’s important to watch what he does, rather than to listen to what he says.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  102. @ fred-2, #97:

    Patterico, et. al., when are you going to wake up to the fact that the election is over and Trump won?

    How does that have anything to do with this post? All Patterico is doing is pointing out that Trump said one thing to get elected, and is now saying something different.

    It’s getting tedious to hear you guys continually try to get people to vote against him.

    Oh, I see. So that’s what you think is going on. Well, sorry, Sparky, but what’s going on here is called “holding your elected officials accountable for their words/actions.” And since, as you pointed out, Trump did win, it’s entirely appropriate to treat him the same as we would any other person who has been elected to office.

    If Hillary had won, and were contradicting her own stances, would you complain if Patterico posted something like this? I doubt it. But then, you’re not in bed love with Hillary.

    All your carping isn’t going to change anything. And it’s making you look like you’re in the same bed as Kos & Huffpo & all the left/liberal sites.

    Concern troll is concerned for you, Patterico. Don’t look like a nasty leftie.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  103. windbag (47f3d7) — 12/7/2016 @ 3:04 pm

    so some sort of statue of limitations has expired? If so, when does it expire for the current illegal immigrants?

    It currently expires with the next generation (those born in the United States) but there are some people who don’t like that, and would maybe like to turn the United States into a replica of the Dominican Republic, Burma, or the Ivory Coast.

    People who support letting the Dreamers stay would presumably set the statute of limitations at being present a certain number of years before age 18. But they want to to be a one-time thing (that’s why “securing the borders” is paired woth that, but the borders can never be secured especially since the United States allows people to enter under terms in which they are not allowed to stay permanently.)

    So we get this idea of internal enforcement, which comes in the form of no legal right to work, (no problems with harboring) and having every person prove their right to work, and they pretend that if that was enforced there would be no more illegal immigrants, or they would all go away after finding no way to way to support themselves (except stealing maybe, but we know most of them are not criminals and would not commit criminal acts.)

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  104. he’s absolutely dazzling

    this is so beautiful to see

    it’s like america’s waking up from a coma to the smell of bacon and waffles and beef stroganoff and golden crispy fishsticks!

    i love it so much

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  105. Jill Stein Demands Recount Of “Rolling Stone’s 50 Best Albums Of 2016.”

    http://thehardtimes.net/2016/12/05/jill-stein-demands-recount-rolling-stones-50-best-albums-2016/

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  106. Everyone knows it’s windbag…

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  107. elissa (9b16e0) — 12/7/2016 @ 9:03 pm

    Sounds like the city is adopting the Ignatius J. Reilly filing system.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  108. Windy Windbag by Teh Disassociation

    Who’s peekin’ out from under a flat rock
    Making a charge that’s lighter than air
    Who tilts ahead to fight with a windmill
    Everyone knows it’s Windbag

    Who’s trippin’ to fantastical colors
    Lashin’ out at ev’ry post that he reads
    Who’s reachin’ out to question a motive
    Everyone knows it’s Windbag

    And Windbag has Manson Lamps
    Logic that will give you cramps
    And Windbag’s not grounded here
    Head’s in teh clouds (head’s in teh clouds)
    Head’s in teh clouds (head’s in teh clouds)

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  109. Rolling stone dies deserve the mcluhan question.

    narciso (d1f714)

  110. RIP ELP’s Greg Lake, 69

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  111. Bravo, Colonel, bravo!

    And winbag has….

    I’ll be humming this all day.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  112. That wa the best use of that song since…

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  113. Rick Ballard (764455) — 12/7/2016 @ 6:39 pm

    The decision to turn Mosul into a second New Grozny<

    Wait a second.

    It’s Aleppo that being turned into New Grozny after the failure of the American Led Emergency Partial Peace Operation [ALEPPO] that Secretary of State John Kerry was trying to arrange.

    The liberation of Mosul is going so slow precisely because the United States does not want to turn it into another Grozny (the plan was devised by the United States. It was designed to minimize both Irqai civilian and military casualties, and to ensure that once an area was liberated, it stayed liberated, aznd was free of booby traps.)

    ISIS terrorists, though, have started murdering people in Mosul.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  114. Stupid link not working.

    Wendy

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  115. No better way to memorialize Greg Lake than with his own Christmas classic:

    I Believe In Father Christmas

    Icy (31984d)

  116. Oh look.

    BREAKING NEWS from the Chicago Tribune
    Illinois universities reject ‘sanctuary campus’ label amid Trump’s deportation threats

    Despite pressure from students and faculty, Illinois universities have rejected calls to declare themselves “sanctuary campuses” for undocumented students, instead outlining other ways they will offer protections.

    The University of Illinois this week became the latest campus to dismiss the idea after thousands signed a petition asking school leaders to adopt the sanctuary label in an effort to protect undocumented students from being targeted for their citizenship status. A similar petition at Northwestern University also failed last month.
    What it would mean to be a sanctuary campus is murky, and the U. of I. said the legal implications are unclear.

    “We cannot declare our campuses as sanctuaries, as the concept is not well specified and may actually jeopardize our institution. However, we will continue to do everything we can within the law to reassure, support and protect our students,” according to a letter sent to the U. of I. community Tuesday.

    elissa (f07c99)

  117. Mr Donald’s choice to lead the EPA is a guy from Oklahoma who thinks the combustible engine is a plus for society. He also believes we shouldn’t have to rely upon windmills to power our refrigerators and big screen TVs.

    Thank you for defeating that nasty Hillary woman, Mr Donald!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  118. @Demosthenes: and is now saying something different.

    In fairness to Trump, he’s not. His statement is content-free. It does not say what he plans to do, who he plans to do it to, or even who will be made “happy and proud” by it.

    Because it is content-free everyone is reading into it what they prefer to read. Pro-Trump people read it as he’s going through with immigration reform pretty much as promised with a few exceptions. Anti-Trump people read it as Trump is contradicting himself yet again.

    I’ve noticed this pattern, Trump gives empty compliments like “Pakistan is a great country full of great people” and the media immediately reads into it all sorts of intentions.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  119. Thx, felipe!

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  120. Gabriel,

    If you are right that Trump’s words are too vacuous to matter, then he is a diplomat and not a leader. Diplomats’ words are often content-free. Leaders’ words motivate and give direction to their governments, their citizens, and other countries. How do Trump’s words give us a clear idea of what he believes, and where (let alone how) he wants to take us?

    DRJ (15874d)

  121. do you know where you going to do you like the things Mr. Trump’s been showing you

    it’s a melancholy time for some

    but for me

    it’s a very exciting time! – full of surprise full of wonder

    like our whole entire country’s a new puppy

    bounding clumsily but adorably into a fun fresh future

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  122. It would seem unlikely that after picking a siloviki equivalent cabinet, Kelly, Lynn, Matt’s, sessions, he would soft pedal the policies

    narciso (d1f714)

  123. @DRJ:How do Trump’s words give us a clear idea of what he believes, and where (let alone how) he wants to take us?

    Leaders who always put all their thinking and plans out for everyone to see are probably naive at best and foolish at worst.

    Every leader has to be diplomatic as well as decisive, and has to know what to say when as circumstances change.

    But I object to your saying “where he wants to take us”. He can’t “take” us anywhere. We’re the ones who would actually do the work involved in going along.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  124. If so, then Obama’s goals and words don’t matter any more than Trump’s.

    DRJ (15874d)

  125. Then why not just be the hybrid office of titular President / actual Secretary of State. In the course of the SOS selection process, Trump might be realizing that there would be no one better than he to effect his foreign policy goals. If Pence is the true mastermind of the Carrier deal, than it is not coincidental that U.S. government for the next 4 to 8 years takes on the form seen in constitutional monarchies – Trump as prime minister, Pence as the interior (domestic) minister serving a ghost King or Queen.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  126. @DRJ:If so, then Obama’s goals and words don’t matter any more than Trump’s.

    Goals matter, but we are the ones with power to achieve them provided they be achievable, and we have to want to go along.

    It sounds to me as though you think every statement from Trump should be some kind of definitive expression of intention. I don’t know why you would have that expectation. Meaningless blandishments are part of every job requiring the management of people.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  127. More of the Nixon model then Reagan or Eisenhower, puzder’s selection can be an issue of concern

    narciso (d1f714)

  128. to ensure that once an area was liberated, it stayed liberated, aznd was free of booby traps.)

    There was an op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal about the battle for Mosul. daesh is leaving some people behind, who attack and try to kill. But this still may be before much time has elapsed.

    I note that Rick Balard said a second New Grozny. Allepo would be the first. But Mosul is not a new Grozny. That’s why it is going so slow.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  129. Puzder a concern in what sense?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  130. @DRJ: Take the “Pakistan is a great country” line that so many people leaped to assume was some kind of repudiation of Trump’s earlier comments.

    What should he have said? “Pakistan is an awful country full of terrorists”? If you actually expect Pakistan to go along with anything you propose, it would make no sense to say this even if it were true. In fact, the more likely it is this is true, the less effective it would be come out and say it.

    As Samuel Johnson said,

    “My dear friend, clear your mind of cant. You may talk as other people do. You may say to a man, ‘Sir, I am your most humble servant.’ You are not his most humble servant. You may say, ‘These are sad times; it is a melancholy thing to be reserved to such times.’ You don’t mind the times. You tell a man, ‘I am sorry you had such bad weather the last day of your journey, and were so much wet.’ You don’t care six-pence whether he was wet or dry. You may talk in this manner; it is a mode of talking in Society: but don’t think foolishly.”

    Trump seems to understand this perfectly, and I think plenty of other Americans do too, and they are more likely to understand the more their profession involves negotiating with people or managing people.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  131. His views on immigration, but too much can be made of this,

    Re sharif, like a scorpion you treat him carefully.

    narciso (d1f714)

  132. Within the earshot of his establishments, I don’t hear too much “guey” and “cabron”. Mostly reminiscent of a Whataburger crew.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  133. 105. Demosthenes (09f714) — 12/8/2016 @ 3:50 am

    All Patterico is doing is pointing out that Trump said one thing to get elected, and is now saying something different.

    He’s not really saying anything different. If you go back to his web site:

    https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies/immigration

    Donald Trump said all immigration laws will be enforced.

    I don’t think he said he wasn’t going to try to get Congress to change immigration law, (in a more permissive direction for some people – he specifically said he would reform the laws *)

    In no place did he promise not change the law so as to legalize people. And neither did he pledge to change it only after the law was enforced.

    And in fact that’s about the only way he can come close to reaching a consensus. He’s looking maybe not exactly for a consensus, but something that won’t energize opposition to his adminstration.

    He’s paying careful attention to the nature and strength of possibe opposition. That’s probably why he had those meetings with Al Gore and with Rahm Emmanuel: To find out what is truly unacceptable to them. What would cause them almost to revolt.

    Trump also needs a very, very liberal definition of “enforcement” so as to mean not actually enforcing the law, but having it as some sort of goal, or rather, an escalating series of goals, which he almost states outright.

    On second thought, on careful examination of that web page, it appears that in any case he’s talking only about enforcing the law with regard to anyone who enters the U.S. illegally in the future.

    All immigration laws will be enforced … Anyone who enters the U.S illegally will be deported.

    Not necessarily, those who have already entered. Laws will be enforced. In the future. Anyone who enters..illegally. In the future.

    That last, by the way, applies only to people who cross the border illegally. It would not include people who overstay visas, since they enter the country legally.

    For them, he only promises a biometric entry-exit visa tracking system, and to turn off the “jobs and benefits magnet”, without any specifics. He admits that not all stay for that reason, so obviously all visas overstays would not be eliminated by “turning off the jobs and benefits magnet.”)

    * He claimed on his web page that he would reform the laws so as to serve the best interests of America “and its workers” – there’s that zero-sum game again (and he’s got the same sort of thinking about trade) and to keep it at historic norms – he doesn’t say what years are the norm, or how that would be measured, whether in absolute numbers, or as a percentage of the U.S. or maybe U.S.-born population.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  134. Studying the web page Patterico linked to furtehr’

    Donald Trump has some ideas there that are just plain factually wrong (like you could boost wages with immigration controls, probably not even for house painters and ceryainly not all across the labor market) and some things that are just not going to happen, like ending catch-and-release, or building an “impenetrable” physical wall that Mexico would pay for; or that there’s no way to force, like getting other countries (mainly Cuba) to take their people back when they were ordered deported, or ending sanctuary cities. (sanctuary colleges, maybe yes, because they are all scared of the Department of Education or they wouldn’t be abolishing due process – but even so, only in name, since they are anyway not asked to do anything, except possibly report some students with education visas are not attending the college any more)

    And the web site has got what looks like a syntactical error:

    6. Suspend the issuance of visas to any place where adequate screening cannot occur, until proven and effective vetting mechanisms can be put into place.

    Visas are issued to persons, not places.

    “From” or better “people from” or “people at” would be better.

    One problem with that whole idea is that the whole vetting system doesn’t work. Or works like the TSA. The vetting now is a such that interpreters who worked with the U.S. military can’t pass the vetting in any timely manner, and yet, any reasonable person would conclude they really are as vetted as anyone could be. Relying on governments to vet is mistake. You only fool yourself. can only get what the other government knows, and in some places they protect people.

    Another problem is that good vetting can be done without any co-operation or reliance on from the places where people have lived. There is such a thing as cross-examination, and references from people outside the country. Terrorists have to tell a completely false story about what they’ve been doing.

    But would be terrorists shouldn’t all be turned away. That only helps terrorist organizations improve their cover stories, at least if people know the reason they were turned down. (Of course if you are erratic, there is no good cover story.) You want double agents, or people secretly imprisoned in Guantamano (difficult to do now with international communications being the way they are – the British had it easier during World War II) But putting a few in jail even openly will do a lot to deter this. Because the terrroist leaders have to worry they might talk. They should not be imprisoned together, and they need some assurance it is safe to talk. If 20% talk, you’ve detsryed the ability of an organization to function.

    Or you can do like when in the 1980s the CIA knew Saddam Hussein sent terrorists associated with Abu Nidal into the United States, and the FBI monitored them, and then the CIA succeeded in getting Saddam Hussein to be suspicious of the terrorists they had sent and, and some were recalled and killed, and the rest never given anything to do – and all the communications were monitored. That’s how they knew one of them in St Louis Missouri had killed his daughter, (Pales)Tina.

    Of course now there maybe there is the risk a terrorist may just drive a car into a crowd. But the thing is when you know their organization, they’re not going to try to send someone you don’t know -even those you don’t know will be told to contact the ones you do know. Anyway, just trying to keep terrorists out of the country may work only if there’s only a few attempts.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  135. ==Meaningless blandishments are part of every job ==
    ==Trump seems to understand this perfectly, and I think plenty of other Americans do too, and they are more likely to understand the more their profession involves negotiating with people or managing people.==

    In grad school we spent a fair amount of time studying communications styles and I feel those insights have helped me a great deal in navigating my business career. Gabriel, you are on point to hint that they legitimately differ by profession and even sometimes within the same person depending on the desired outcome at that time. Lawyers, (which DRJ is) especially prosecutors, often have quite different needs and uses for words, questions and pronouncements for their proper adversarial roles than do say, business leaders with employees and suppliers and customers, which is considerably different from successful politicians’ communication shorthand with voters and constituents, which is often different from scientists and engineers’ and doctors’ verbal skills. I think these easily understood and necessary variances in professional communication styles that then show up organically in comments by commenters do contribute to some of the mis-communication and angst that appears here during discussions from time to time.

    elissa (f07c99)

  136. Its a much more dangerous risk, nidal and say illich Sanchez or anyone in pflp were less committed than say hamas or Al queda

    narciso (d1f714)

  137. Gabriel,

    Effective leaders practice clear, meaningful communication. Meaningless blandishments are not helpful or productive communication styles for any leader.

    DRJ (15874d)

  138. Trump has many effective leadership skills. I think decisiveness is a quality that helps him succeed. Meaningless blather is not one of those skills.

    DRJ (15874d)

  139. @DRJ:Effective leaders practice clear, meaningful communication

    When it makes sense for them to do so. When meaningless blandishments are needed, they use them. It’s very unlikely that you can lay down a blanket rule for all leaders at all times.

    I believe also that he will be successful who directs his actions according to the spirit of the times, and that he whose actions do not accord with the times will not be successful. Because men are seen, in affairs that lead to the end which every man has before him, namely, glory and riches, to get there by various methods; one with caution, another with haste; one by force, another by skill; one by patience, another by its opposite; and each one succeeds in reaching the goal by a different method. One can also see of two cautious men the one attain his end, the other fail; and similarly, two men by different observances are equally successful, the one being cautious, the other impetuous; all this arises from nothing else than whether or not they conform in their methods to the spirit of the times. This follows from what I have said, that two men working differently bring about the same effect, and of two working similarly, one attains his object and the other does not.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  140. Effective leaders identify a goal and see that the goal is achieved.

    Trump grew a $1M loan into a $5B-$10B real-estate empire.

    Trump came down an escalator, made an announcement, and then was called an incompetant, deluded, clown con-man for 17 months. Called delusional for thinking that he could get elected President.

    So evidently DRJ’s pronouncements as to how skillful and effective Trump is, is wrong.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  141. we’re in good hands

    Mr. Trump’s gonna steer this ship to prosperity and glad tidings

    i’m happyfeet your cruise director

    come aboard!

    we’re expecting you!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  142. mr cruise director happyfeet, can i please reserve the shuffleboard court at 2PM on saturday?

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  143. 138… yes, elissa and they all employ deception and obfuscation to some degree when it suits them. As most of us do.

    Colonel Haiku (64320c)

  144. got my trusty clipboard right here I’ll make a note

    wear good shoes!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  145. So evidently DRJ’s pronouncements as to how skillful and effective Trump is, is wrong.

    I said Trump is an effective leader because he is decisive but if you think I’m wrong, then so be it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  146. this is so good to see just for the photography

    just keep scrolling

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  147. mr cruise director, please keep an eye on the older lady in 205B by the name of hillary. i saw her stuffing her purse with all sorts of rolls and bagels at the all-you-can-eat buffet earlier today.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  148. i saw a pig with a monkey face today

    but it could walk all by itself

    happyfeet (28a91b)


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