The Real History Behind the Declaration of Independence
Did you ever want to learn the real history behind the Declaration of Independence? Professor Kevin Gutzman has your answers:
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Next July 4 listen to Hugh Hewitt’s radio show. Every year on 7/4 he replays his interview of the late Harry Jaffa.
Charlie Davis (df08d0) — 11/27/2016 @ 12:27 pmCharlie Davis, a lot of the #NeverTrumpers believe Hugh is a secret commie. (LOL)
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/27/2016 @ 1:58 pmBut yes, his replayed conversation with Dr Henry Jaffa is wonderful.
Hmmm,
I guess perhaps I didn’t need to know the “real history” as I wasn’t all that wedded to the “not so real history”, which seems to me to be a bit weak overall.
So, nature and nature’s God wasn’t only a Lockean political philosophy associated with religious deism, but also with “Calvinism”? So what. There has been a lot of bickering back and forth as to how many of the “Founding Fathers” were deists or/vs “orthodox/trinitarian” Christians,
so the “real” history is that there was a mix of both and the language was acceptable to them all?
That’s what I already thought.
As to it being not really that important of a founding document,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 4:39 pmAdams reveled in the idea it would be celebrated annually with fireworks and parades into perpetuity?
Sounds pretty foundational to me if it warranted that kind of annual celebration.
OT crowd source question, but related,
if you will be so kind to indulge me.
Years ago I read a piece on PowerLine where a conservative author was making the claim that ultimately all liberal vs. conservative discussion was fundamentally an issue of religious faith. Conservatives believed in a universe with an objective moral order and a proper life and society was one that sought to understand and follow the law and the Law Giver,
and liberals/progressives felt that humankind had the right unto themselves to decide what was right and wrong, within a sort of social-darwinist view of “the arc and end of history”.
And that all of the details of difference in opinion ultimately flowed from that foundation.
Does that sound familiar to anyone out there and can you identify who it was that was known for such a proposition?
Thanks.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 4:46 pmI wound think so, its pivotal to our nation’s identity, but it is a dangerous document, in that the conditions that prompted its appearance are present to a degree today
As I said before, it encompasses a wide spectrum of religious belife
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 4:48 pmRussell kirk and the moral imagination?
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 4:56 pmThe clique around George Washington were mostly unitarians in all but name, except for Patrick Henry, who was an orthodox trinitarian. None of them were deists. The only deist I know of at that time was Paine, and I’m not sure he counts as a “founding father”. In any case his deism made him very unpopular, so it can’t be cited as support for the idea that deism was common or accepted.
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/27/2016 @ 4:58 pmAs to it being not really that important of a founding document
Lincoln clearly disagreed.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/27/2016 @ 4:58 pmThomas Jefferson to mcawful and clam, what a devolution, one can stir David brat, but he is the exception.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:11 pmYes, conservatives believe in constant and enduring moral truths and that the laws of society are based on morality. It does not need to be religion-based, or at least not on any particular religion.
I don’t know about liberalism, but Marxist theory explicitly rejects laws based on morality and prescribes that all laws should be based on what is most beneficial to society. However, it’s sometimes difficult to distinguish hard-line Communists from Puritans — they can be pretty strait-laced.
nk (dbc370) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:18 pmWho Stalin, certainly not Fidel or Mao, I shudder to think about polpot
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:22 pmAs one truly wise man put it ‘what do you think’ our rivals whether of the czarist double dragon or the crescent really believe, what do we
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:34 pm1958, the late ‘wandering coma’ revealed the enmity of his hatredvfot for the us, which would be seen four years later in the Cuban missile crisis.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:39 pmPol Pot was a nutcase. Like Hitler, a death-cultist. Stalin was a pragmatic killer: “Death solves all problems. If a man is dead, he is not a problem.”
I have a jaundiced view of western liberal democracies, too. They confuse freedom with permissiveness. Ours included, lately.
nk (dbc370) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:49 pmYes freedom and license. The lower habits re the exalted things, so another round for the colonels?
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:52 pmKirk certainly looks like in the ball park,
though what I remember reading in powerline was very explicit in describing the liberal-conservative divide as a theological divide at it’s root
liberty gets turned into license because of the human heart, nk
unless one is set free by the Son of God,
one will be ruled by an exterior tyrant,
or the tyrant of one’s own desires
leftists would rather impose the external tyrant to make society “perfect”
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:57 pmlibertarians prefer to make their prisons themselves
Who says George Washington was a Unitarian? I was taught he was Episcopal/Anglican and being from Philadelphia and having lived in Old City I went to Christ Church (High Episcopal) where I sat in the Washington pew more than once. So Washington worshipped at an Episcopal church at least while he was in Philly. In those days one “bought” the family pew and there are about two dozen pews with the family names of Patriots like Logan and Girard affixed to them.
MD in Philly, I’ve noticed when having any intercourse with leftists that they believe Government is the highest power while I believe it God. I also found just about all hard leftists to be godless heathens bereft of a moral compass and incapable of seeing evil for what it is. Other than that they’re just lovely folks.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/27/2016 @ 5:57 pmChatted with a neighbor a number of months ago while walking the dog, he was in the AF on a base in TX during the missile crisis, on the line prepping the B-52’s for flight,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 6:00 pmhe said it was a very tense time.
Also interesting seeing this strange plane come and go out of a heavily guarded separate hanger (a U2)
Yes, one can have only one ultimate trust,
either God,
or a substitute
government is a good substitute in principle,
provides for you, protects you, guides you
is there a difference (or was there?) between a unitarian and a Unitarian universalist?
afaik, Jefferson and others had little stomach for Jesus being divine, hence non-trinitarian, but I don’t know if there were people who thought Jesus was the only way for salvation (hence not universalists) but denied him being divine
I guess I could look it up myself, but I won’t
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 6:05 pmThe great upheaval, recounts how we involuntarily became entangled with the rising power of revolutionary France which might have been our path swell if we had adopted rouseau instead of Locke.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 6:06 pmHow did the square that circle. He just had special dispensation.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/27/2016 @ 6:08 pmMD in Philly,
You might find reflection upon John Witherspoon’s impact upon James Madison (and many other American Revolutionaries) worthwhile. After all, Madison completed his education at Princeton in ’72 and wrote the Constitution fifteen years later. There is no question regarding the influence of Locke, Burke and especially Montesquieu upon the Revolutionaries but Witherspoon deserves far more attention as a font of reconciliation and compromise in the proceedings.
I’ve always believed liberals/progressives to be motivated by iterations of Plato’s fantasy The Republic, seeing themselves as the anointed Guardians, although always without the knowledge, training, skill and honesty which Plato stipulated as necessary.
Rick Ballard (d17095) — 11/27/2016 @ 6:49 pmThank you for taking time to make that recommendation, Rick.
So many things to learn, so little energy to do it.
I hear that there is a great shortage of truck drivers, maybe I should do that and fill my time with books and lectures and seminars and such.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 7:47 pmSince ya’ll have been most hospitable,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/27/2016 @ 8:34 pmanyone familiar with something called the “International Baccalaureate Diploma”, a 2 year interdisciplinary course for junior and senior high students, whether colleges look at it as a good thing for admissions, etc.?
Daughters HS offers it, not sure if it is a good thing or something that is more a feather in the cap of the school for having students in it,
thanks