Trump Claims Credit for Plant Staying in Kentucky . . . That Was Staying in Kentucky Anyway
The New York Times and multiple other outlets are reporting that Donald Trump’s tweets taking credit for a Ford plant staying in Kentucky were inaccurate. The plant was never leaving in the first place. New York Times:
President-elect Donald J. Trump claimed credit on Thursday night for persuading Ford to keep an automaking plant in Kentucky rather than moving it to Mexico. The only wrinkle: Ford was not actually planning to move the plant.
Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter shortly after 9 p.m. that Ford’s chairman, William Clay Ford Jr., had just told him that Ford “will be keeping the Lincoln plant in Kentucky — no Mexico.”
Minutes later, Mr. Trump wrote in a second post: “I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky. I owed it to the great State of Kentucky for their confidence in me!” Mr. Trump won 62.5 percent of the state’s popular vote in the presidential election.
Ford was planning to move a line of cars from Kentucky to Mexico, and increase production of a different line of cars. No jobs were ever going to be lost in Kentucky:
But Ford had not planned to close the Louisville factory. Instead, it had planned to expand production of another vehicle made in Louisville, the Ford Escape. And the change had not been expected to result in any job losses.
“Whatever happens in Louisville, it will not lose employment,” Jimmy Settles, a union official, told The Detroit Free Press. “They cannot make enough Escapes.”
Now, thanks to Mr. Trump, the plant will make fewer Escapes — and more MKCs.
Meanwhile, Ford is still moving forward with plans to move production of the Ford Focus to Mexico:
This week, Ford chief executive Mark Fields reiterated that it was moving forward with plans to shift production of the Ford Focus to Mexico from Michigan.
By the way, Jim Hoft at Gateway Pundit reported last night: TRUMP EFFECT: Ford Calls Donald Trump – Says Plant Will Not Move to Mexico, Will Remain in Kentucky:
Bill Ford, the Chairman of Ford Moters [sic], called Donald Trump tonight and said he will be keeing [sic] the Lincoln plant in Kentucky- Not Mexico.
There is no correction to the Gateway Pundit story, even though “Ford Moters” won’t be “keeing” the plant in Kentucky due to Trump.
Prediction: Gateway Pundit will pay no price for misleading readers, while some on the right will grumble that this blog reported true facts to correct Donald Trump’s false assertions.
None of this is the biggest deal in the world. Trump, no fan of attention to detail, probably just got confused. But Presidents need to be accurate to have credibility. (No, Obama wasn’t accurate, and Obama did not have credibility. Do you want Trump to have Obama’s credibility? Then don’t bring up Obama to defend Trump.)
But hey. If you prefer cheerleading to accuracy, there’s always Gateway Pundit.
[Cross-posted at RedState.]
Ford’s chairman, William Clay Ford Jr., had just told him that Ford “will be keeping the Lincoln plant in Kentucky — no Mexico.”
Well, did William Clay Ford Jr tell Trump that? If so, then Trump might have been wrong, but he wasn’t lying. And if Gateway Pundit reported who said what correctly, than Gateway Pundit misled no one.
What has happened here is two stories from two sources that conflict. Certainly someone is wrong, but there is no evidence given here to decide it.
Is Ford more credible than Settles on what Ford was or was not planning to do?
Seems we’re just going to swallow the NYT fact-check uncritically.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 11/18/2016 @ 10:52 amI don’t understand how those Ford Foci are supposed to get back through the wall once they are assembled and ready for sale.
JVW (6e49ce) — 11/18/2016 @ 10:53 amIf you prefer cheerleading to accuracy
I prefer a non-selective application of critical thinking to cheerleading, or booleading, as the case may be, and that approach is most likely to lead to accuracy.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 11/18/2016 @ 10:54 amJim Hoft deletes critical comments.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 10:59 am2, considering the crash testing of the Nissan Tsuru (http://autoweek.com/article/wait-theres-more/nissan-versa-vs-tsuru-crash-test-most-horrifying-thing-we-saw-halloween) consider yourself lucky that you wont have the choice of the Foci. Better that some intrepid custom bike-maker scales up to fill that void.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:03 amThe critical point: The expansion was to be in Mexico, and the expansion will still be in Mexico. Convincing US companies to expand in the US, or move offshore manufacturing back to the US, is needed to lower the unemployment rate among this type of worker.
Ford’s problem is that the UAW wants to get their beak wet if the plant is in the US. It’s ironic that union demands are what kills auto manufacturing jobs.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:05 amThe WSJ version of the story provides the following in support of Trump’s tweet
So Bill Ford gave Trump the sleeves off of his vest – bent knee or studied buttering?
The Focus plant will still be south of the Great Wall of Trump.
Rick Ballard (d17095) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:07 amNissan Tsuru
I doubt this will sell well to the Jews. Kind of like selling “No va” to Hispanics.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:08 ami trust Mr. Trump way more than i trust the sleazy sluts at the New York Times
like a hundred times more
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:08 am“There’s something about billions of dollars in investment and carefully planned long-term product strategies that make it hard for an automaker to turn on a dime in the face of a threat.
Ford Motor Company CEO Mark Fields says his company has no plans to reverse course on its goal of boosting production of cars and components in Mexico, even after President-elect Trump’s promise of a 35-percent tariff on vehicles crossing the Rio Grande.
It’s a game of chicken Ford intents to win.”
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/11/ford-wont-backpedal-mexico-plans-ford/
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:08 amNYT: All the snit that’s fit to print.
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:10 amdon’t trust them Mr. Colonel they lie
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:12 amI see little reason to doubt that Trump’s election will slow the outflow of jobs. What large domestic corporation would want to take the PR hit?
He’s not the first pol to take credit where it isn’t due. He won’t be the last.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:13 amThe NYT’s MOP was recently exposed by one of its own. The are given a narrative/direction by the editors and told to fashion their writing to fit that narrative. Another example of throwing something against the wall to see if it sticks?
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:14 amThe NoVa was the first antithesis to the big customizable sedan…THATS why it didnt sell to Hispanics (although the Ricans were all in on Toyota Corollas from the 70s on). The Tsuru’s American counterpart was the Sentra for most of its history.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:14 amFord has been saying for months now aht the plant was not going to close and it never said that it would – only hat oroduction of what it was producing there would move to Mexico. They can’t lay anybody off under the terms of their union contract and it does not expire until 2019.
If there is an argument that are going to be fewer Ford production jobs in the United States, beause they will be hiting fewer, or that the jobs of the auto workers at that plant are less secure than before, that argument that argument is as good before as later.
What Ford now told Trump was they are going to keep one particular model, whose production they were planning to move to Mexico, in that plant.
http://www.recode.net/2016/11/18/13674638/trump-ford-mexico-lincoln-mkc
Sammy Finkelman (be1929) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:15 am14…and that guy came from the Dog Trainer.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:15 amNothing “ironic” about it Kevin M, union demands kill jobs everywhere they’re tried. Why do you think they love them gov’mnt jobs? The gov’mnt can’t move to Mexico. They single handedly murdered the garment industry in America among others. But that takes nothing away from Trump being smart enough to take credit for Ford staying. I’m starting to like this guy. He may be able to do to the left what they’ve been doing to us for years: convince them that so many things they think are true are actually bull.
See, he’s already Making America Great Again. Just ask him. Meanwhile, Obama goes to a foreign country and tells Americans to run in the streets. What a “Legacy”!!!!
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:17 am8. Maybe if it was called the Nissan Tsarah, and if people stopped to think about it, or maybe in Israel.
But listen, Nisan is the name of the Jewish month in which Passover occurs. That’s not bad.
Sammy Finkelman (be1929) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:19 am“Having left the Times on July 25, after almost 12 years as an editor and correspondent, I missed the main heat of the presidential campaign; so I can’t add a word to those self-assessments of the recent political coverage. But these recent mornings-after leave me with some hard-earned thoughts about the Times’ drift from its moorings in the nation at-large.
For starters, it’s important to accept that the New York Times has always — or at least for many decades — been a far more editor-driven, and self-conscious, publication than many of those with which it competes. Historically, the Los Angeles Times, where I worked twice, for instance, was a reporter-driven, bottom-up newspaper. Most editors wanted to know, every day, before the first morning meeting: “What are you hearing? What have you got?”
It was a shock on arriving at the New York Times in 2004, as the paper’s movie editor, to realize that its editorial dynamic was essentially the reverse. By and large, talented reporters scrambled to match stories with what internally was often called “the narrative.” We were occasionally asked to map a narrative for our various beats a year in advance, square the plan with editors, then generate stories that fit the pre-designated line.”
https://deadline.com/2016/11/shocked-by-trump-new-york-times-finds-time-for-soul-searching-1201852490/
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:21 amI have some friends who are government drones, that is bureaucrats. The husband works for the EEOC and the wife is at IRS. Between them they earn about $320,000 per year. Yes, they are hard-core democrats but they were at my house Sunday and the husband said “maybe we can get a little tax relief with Trump”. I busted out laughing. Here are two middle class people with great benefits that KNOW they are being screwed by the democrats but just….can’t….admit….it.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:22 am17… yes, urban, see above.
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:23 amNarcissists like Trump will take credit for the sun rising in the East every morning if you let them. He’s gotten away with it most of his life either because he was the boss in a closely held business or he was given the celebrity exemption for speaking pure bull crap. It will be fun watching him dealing with people who don’t accept his legend in his own mind status.
NC Mountain Girl (8192dc) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:27 am21. Nixonian guaranteed income amongst 8 people (40,000) might be better than their 2 people making the same combined $320,000 to essentially be bad actors in 60 to 80% of their duties, depending on the political winds. How did you not grab an empty oxygen tank and heave it at them?
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:29 ami trust Mr. Trump way more than i trust the sleazy sluts at the New York Times
Translation: I can see REAL GOOD even with all this sand around my head. Anyone who says different is a LIAR!
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:29 amIt’s a game of chicken Ford intents to win.
Bet you this quote comes up in UAW talks.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:31 amNothing “ironic” about it Kevin M
Just because it happens a lot doesn’t mean it isn’t ironic.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:34 amIs FMC too financially balls-deep in the forced greening of its infrastructure to give up on that first, before hardballing the UAW and moving other plants? Its the same argument someone in another thread had about the fact the climate change mandates ate up 3% of GDP growth.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:37 amthere is no such thing as sand
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:51 amSadly, because they’re not the only bureaucrats I know, but they happen to be the set of “Federal” bureaucrats I know. They’re nice people (like most Nazi’s were) they just exist in a bubble. They make enough money after twenty years in gov’mnt work that get to bitch with the rest of us who actually had to work for a living. Hey, they plan on retiring in 2018 I can’t wait to see that action.
You have a point there.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:51 am@9 “i trust Mr. Trump way more than i trust the sleazy sluts at the New York Times”
M Patterson (7d4d4d) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:56 amConsidering that there is an infinite number of ways to lie and only one way to tell the truth, I would say that they could both be sleazy liars. Trump’s veracity is not predicated on the New York Times’ dishonesty. Trusting him more than a company that you already don’t trust at all says nothing.
i love him though
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 12:06 pmNarcissists like Trump will take credit for the sun rising in the East every morning if you let them. He’s gotten away with it most of his life either because he was the boss in a closely held business or he was given the celebrity exemption for speaking pure bull crap. It will be fun watching him dealing with people who don’t accept his legend in his own mind status.
NC Mountain Girl (8192dc) — 11/18/2016 @ 11:27 am
============================================
Speaking of bull crap, how is that investigation of NC voter fraud going? I hope they nail teh swine!
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 12:23 pmThe Democrat swine!!!
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 12:26 pmUm, why? Nissan is a month with pleasant associations, much like December in English, so that’s a plus. “Tsuru” means nothing in Yiddish; in Hebrew the only meaning I can ascribe to it would be an imperative “lay siege” (to a city); not perhaps the nicest of possible words (if one can even call it a word; it appears to be a valid grammatical construct but I doubt it appears in any Hebrew dictionary) but not one with bad associations.
Were you perhaps thinking of the Yiddish tsores (or tsures) meaning “troubles” (plural of tsoreh, from the Hebrew tsarah)? That’s much too much of a stretch.
Oh, and the NoVa thing is a myth.
Milhouse (33eb0a) — 11/18/2016 @ 12:33 pmNot sure where to put this, because it’s definitely not germane to this topic. But I’ve been having an interesting conversation with a friend on Facebook (she’s a friend in real life, the conversation is on FB) regarding something George Takei posted. Takei says that registering muslims would be the prelude to internment camps.
While I agree that registering people based on their religion is dead wrong (and the threat to do so is probably overstated), haven’t gun owners been saying for years that registering guns is the prelude to confiscation? And liberals have assured them for years that guns won’t be confiscated. Why doesn’t the logic apply to both sides?
I tried to point out the irony to my friend, but she won’t have any of it. Oh well. Maybe Patterico or Dana or JVW would like to do a post on this?
Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71) — 11/18/2016 @ 1:28 pmFace it, all the auto and all other manufacturing jobs would be leaving the US if Trump hadn’t been elected. What would have been the point of keeping those jobs here otherwise?
Jcurtis (2049be) — 11/18/2016 @ 1:55 pminternment camps are liberating goddamn bastions of freedom compared to the average failmerican college campus
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 2:14 pmAaand the embarrassment continues. This is only the beginning. “Believe me. That I can tell you.”
Tillman (a95660) — 11/18/2016 @ 2:42 pmYet takei somehow ignores fdr who had an minus against Japanese immigrants for 20 years, who overruled atty gen biddle and director hoover re the internments
narciso (d1f714) — 11/18/2016 @ 2:46 pmtakei’s just a loser twittertard
poor man
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 2:50 pmDems in the worst position nationwide since the 1920s. Speaking of embarrassment, you’d think Tillman would feel a sense of loss, shame and embarrassment, but the fever swamp m00nbats don’t shame or embarrass easy.
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:03 pmTillman, we know that your hero Barack didn’t save Ford from moving to Mexico. That’s because he’s angry at cars! (LOL)
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:04 pmSometimes correct, frequently mistaken, but never in doubt.
Colonel Haiku (61bdd9) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:06 pm#40 Narciso, as you know, that’s the pattern of American History According to The Left.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:17 pmNoam Chomsky and Howard Zinn always shame America — but not the Democrat Party.
When FDR & the Democrats interned Japanese-Americans, then America as a whole gets the blame. There’s no residual anger directed toward FDR or against the Democrats.
Same with the Civil War, Jim Crow, and the KKK.
The Democrat party was the engine behind the political forces which facilitated those policies, yet the blame is shifted to America or even to modern-day white Republicans who had nothing to do with any of it.
They say people are wearing “white sheets” when they aren’t actually wearing white sheets.
Yet when a Muslim immigrant yelling “Allahu Akbar!” blows something up or shoots a bunch of people, and the FBI discovers a treasure trove of pro-Jihadist literature stored on their home computer, the Democrats still say, “We have no idea what his motive might have been.”
When both sides get what they want don’t we usually call that a win-win?
crazy (d3b449) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:35 pmFirst, what does a has-been B-lister know about anything?
Second, ain’t no way American citizens are going to be registered based on their religion.
Third, immigrants are supposed to be registered regardless of their religion. Even green cards.
nk (dbc370) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:39 pmone would hope even a wretched trektrash b-lister would know something of the holiday spirit
snowflakes on reindeers and whispery kittens
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:43 pmI’m starting to like this guy
– Hoagie
Shocker.
Leviticus (e72845) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:55 pmGoogle Ford Escape
and
Google MKC
It sometimes helps to know about the product. Basically they are the same product; a tiny SUV designed for parking in the city but also to facilitate the rare occasion of driving to the burning man festival during vacation.
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/18/2016 @ 3:55 pmThe Escape costs $10k less than the MKC, so that’s the one people are buying.
raise your hand if you’re *NOT* grateful to Mr. Trump for helping us have more jobs here in america
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/18/2016 @ 4:08 pmDoes it? I said multiple outlets in the post, Gabriel. I linked two of them. And I believe there was a video today of the CRO from Ford saying they were never going to move the plant, ever.
The WSJ article someone quoted does not back up Trump’s claim that they were going to move the plant.
Does a single one of you here who tried to cast doubt on this story have a single shred of evidence (other than Trump and his idiot fluffers like Hoft and Drudge) who says they were going to close a PLANT?
Anyone???
Patterico (aca8cf) — 11/18/2016 @ 5:19 pmThe snide little comment I just quoted is pretty ballsy given that I quoted two sources and correctly stated that there were multiple sources.
Maybe a little less attitude, Gabriel?
Patterico (aca8cf) — 11/18/2016 @ 5:22 pmSince this story does not evidence that, and since his proposed solution is ruinous, consider my hand held high.
Patterico (aca8cf) — 11/18/2016 @ 5:23 pm@Patterico: Here’s the thing, you said Trump and Gateway Pundit were misleading about this:
Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter shortly after 9 p.m. that Ford’s chairman, William Clay Ford Jr., had just told him that Ford “will be keeping the Lincoln plant in Kentucky — no Mexico.”
Did this, or did this not happen? If this happened, it was not a lie, even if Ford was never going to move the production.
Trump is saying what someone told him, someone who might be in a position to know. If Trump relayed that accurately, and it is false, then HE is the one who was misled.
You can read the news a lot more critically than you care to when the topic is Trump.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 6:23 pmI’m not saying that, Patterico, because I care about Trump or what people think of Trump. It has nothing whatever to do with Trump.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 6:27 pmd’nesh’s latest seem to point to Jefferson as the progenitor of this sentiment (he takes the sally hemmings story as true) then to Jackson, and the bourbons who tried to resurrect the confederacy, with the radical republicans as their foil,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/18/2016 @ 6:30 pmI own a 2006 GMC truck made in Canada and a 2000 Subaru made in Indiana. This stuff is so confusing.
It would be nice if our .Gov could make our corporations more profitable by lowering the Corp tax rate, so it wouldn’t worth the large investment to move out of the country.
MSL (a8c328) — 11/18/2016 @ 6:41 pm@MSL:It would be nice if our .Gov could make our corporations more profitable by lowering the Corp tax rate,
The solution to the problem of tax havens is either to be a tax haven yourself, or get all the other countries to agree not to be them. In other words, form a tax cartel, and there’s always someone willing to break ranks.
People struggle with how you can make more with a smaller tax rate, if you have a larger tax base to work from.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 6:46 pm54, What is your solution for keeping manufacturing jobs in the US, Patterico? You seem to imply that you are in favor of keeping real jobs in the US but oppose Trump’s solution for that. China has been lecturing Trump about what is best for the US and is it safe to assume that you are on board with them?
Jcurtis (2049be) — 11/18/2016 @ 7:02 pmFree market.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 7:38 pm61, does “free market” mean put US citizens with mortgages and expectations of at least a semi-comfortable life style into head-to-head competition with third world hut dwellers who can maintain their existence for a dollar a day?
Just say “yes” to my question. Any other response will only make me drag you in deeper.
Jcurtis (be4073) — 11/18/2016 @ 7:46 pmOnly if they choose to compete against them in the same market.
There are many things to do in this world.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 7:49 pmSo, it’s not necessarily my solution for “keeping manufacturing jobs” here as it is my solution for the greatest prosperity for all, especially the poor and middle class.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 7:50 pm@jcurtis:US citizens with mortgages and expectations of at least a semi-comfortable life style into head-to-head competition with third world hut dwellers who can maintain their existence for a dollar a day?
Why should US citizens with comfortable middle-class lifestyles who work hard to supply other US citizens with electricity, have to compete with a glowing ball of gas that gives light for free? We should forbid Americans to own windows, so we can create jobs for people who generate electricity.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 7:54 pmhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_tax
Kishnevi (0cb353) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:00 pmI just watched the goalposts get marched from “not misleading” to “not a lie” in the course of a few short lines.
Which are you defending? Both, or just one? Let’s figure that out first.
I would also like to know: are you still sticking with your snide “Seems we’re just going to swallow the NYT fact-check uncritically” line?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:00 pmWere you perhaps thinking of the Yiddish tsores
tsuris is a common spelling.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:06 pmLincoln MKC is not a plant. It’s a vehicle. So THE COMPANY ITSELF is saying the same things as the New York Times and the Washington Post and all the other outlets that reported this story.
Meanwhile, Gateway Pundit, somewhere inamongst all his misspellings and exclamation marks, breathlessly reported that Trump had tweeted: “I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky.”
Even though Ford NEVER INTENDED AT ANY POINT to take the plant out of Kentucky.
And you’re going to continue to try to defend Trump and Hoft and Drudge as not misleading?
Why are you doing this? I’m genuinely confused.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:07 pmFord is trying to get Trump to lay off them so they are throwing him a meaningless rhetorical bone, and Trump is distorting it, and Hoft & Co. are amplifying it, and you’re pretending that maybe they’re doing straight and honest reporting. And that the real problem here is Patterico, whose critical thinking skills have gone flying out the window!
Yuh huh.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:09 pmA tariff for goods from across the border will level the price between the ford escape and the Lincoln MKC.
Since it doesn’t matter to my wallet, might as well get the one with the built in MP3, Garmin, and Corinthian leather.
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:12 pm@Patterico: Trump described what William Ford told him. What is your evidence that Trump described it inaccurately, or that the communication never took place? There was none presented in your links.
Did Ford never talk to Trump? If he did talk to Trump, did he not say what Trump said he did?
If Ford did talk to Trump, and did say Ford “will be keeping the Lincoln plant in Kentucky — no Mexico.–if that is true, then Trump misled no one.
Either Ford misled him, which is possible–he may have been sucking up–then Trump was not misleading anyone, or lying, by accurately reporting what he was told.
And as for what Ford is going to do, you have different stories from different sources on that. I don’t know the Ford corporate structure well enough to know whose word is definitive on that.
are you still sticking with your snide “Seems we’re just going to swallow the NYT fact-check uncritically” line?
Depends on where you go with this.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:12 pmSo yeah, I’ve seen now that you’ve posted something else from Ford. It does not contain a quote from William Ford about what he said to Trump.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:13 pm@Patterico: real problem here is Patterico, whose critical thinking skills have gone flying out the window!
I’ve seen you work a lot harder at being critical of what you read in the news, when the topic is not Trump, and I’m far from the only one to say so.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:15 pmSo, a Ford plant was scheduled to make more hot-selling Fords and fewer poorly-selling Lincolns. No change in the workforce was planned. Ford was also going to make some of the Lincolns elsewhere and build a new plant in Mexico.
Now that Trump has intervened, the Ford plant will be making fewer hot-selling Fords and more not-so-well-selling Lincolns. No change in the workforce is planned and Ford will make some of the hot-selling Fords elsewhere and continue with it’s new Mexican plant.
Now, let’s stop and recap. What changed? The plant will be making more poor-selling cars. Somewhere else will be making the hot-selling cars. I’m not sure that I’d take credit for that.
And cue the guy with the pink slips next summer. “Sorry, guys, but those Lincolns just don’t sell.”
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:16 pmI am not “defending” Trump, or his statement. I am saying the “fact check” was the typical media fact check, which you are normally very good at spotting, where ambiguous evidence is presented as unambiguous. That is all.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:17 pmNow, if Trump had intervened and Ford said “We are cancelling out Mexican plant and expanding the US one” (which they didn’t say) then it might be of interest.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:18 pmAnd you know what? In six hours, perhaps, William Ford will post a recording of what he said to Trump. And that would definitively settle the question of what was said versus what Trump says was said. But we don’t have that evidence. We have evidence of a different kind, which sheds no light whatever on what William Ford said to Trump. But the media fact check elides the distinction, quite deliberately.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:20 pmGabriel,
I am not interested in the conversation any more. My position is quite clear to me, but I have evidently failed to communicate it to you, and it’s evident that trying any further would not convince you but would frustrate me further. I’ll leave it as is, other than to note that you studiously refuse to defend your snide remark suggesting that I had naively relied on just one source. I’ll take your failure to defend that comment as a tacit apology and acknowledgement that you were wrong about that, and I’ll accept that tacit apology. Now I think I will move on dot org from this highly frustrating conversation.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:26 pmFor the benefit of others, however, I will note that last November the move of the Lincoln MKC from Louisville was reported. At no time did the article report that the plant was going to move.
We’re left with one of two options. Maybe Ford actually did decide to move the plant, and no hint of this was ever reported anywhere in the world, but it was going to happen anyway and Bill Ford admitted it all to Donald Trump for the first time this morning, in an exclusive! There is good reason to think this because although there is zero evidence of it, Donald Trump implied it and Jim Hoft repeated it so anyone with good critical thinking skills would consider that hey maybe it is true despite the utter and complete lack of any evidence.
Option two: Yes, we accept that Ford was never ever ever going to move the plant from Kentucky, but we still maintain that it is not misleading to say “I worked hard with Bill Ford to keep the Lincoln plant in Kentucky.” when the plant was never leaving anyway because reasons.
OK, I guess I am contradicting my claim that I would let this go, and trying to make the same point again.
There is some kind of deep, deep, deep failure to communicate here, somewhere. This really seems very straightforward to me.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:34 pmWell, since we’re criticizing each other, I’ve seen you understand simple arguments, and not write comment after comment in which you act like a brick wall seeming to not listen to or comprehend a thing I’m saying. Which is why it is astounding to me when you defend such utter bullshit and don’t seem to realize how uncritical YOU seem of Trump, Hoft, and the other liars.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:37 pmI noticed that you didn’t respond to which set of goalposts you are defending: Hoft/Trump lied, or Hoft/Trump misled. If you can’t see how they misled here, I just don’t know what to say. This is not difficult. Why do you make it so difficult when it’s not?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:39 pm@Patterico:There is some kind of deep, deep, deep failure to communicate here, somewhere.
I think it’s a question of different purposes.
You’re interested in this an example, one of many many examples, of Trump bullsh-tting people, which he may very well be doing in this case, though we’ve not seen the evidence that would definitively establish that despite being told that we have seen it.
I am interested in it as an example of the media “fact check” genre, where two things, not equivalent, are equated, and evidence against one is used evidence against the other. The topic could be Hillary Clinton and I would say what I just did here, but the media would all of a sudden bring out all the context and ambiguity.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:39 pmWhat two things have been equated here, in your view?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:41 pmWhat do you think he said, what do you think he implied, and what do you think the facts are, regarding the issue of whether the plant was ever going to close, and whether its closure was preventing by Donald Trump working with Ford?
Please answer that question in bold.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:42 pmHere’s what I don’t dispute, Patterico:
That Ford was never planning to move anything to Mexico.
That Ford will be doing basically what they were going to do all along, but are flattering Trump by letting him think he had something to do with it.
This is what I do dispute: evidence that Ford never intended to move the plant, is also evidence that Trump did not accurately report what he was told by William Ford. Evidence that WOULD establish that might take the form of some kind of contemporaneous transcript or recording. Very likely it might show Trump’s characterization as not accurate. But that evidence has not been presented, and the media acts as though it has, and that is what I object to, and nothing else.
This is not a pro-Trump argument, it is an anti-media argument. Does that clear it up?
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:46 pmThe nice thing about Mr Donald becoming President is that we’ll have Jeff Sessions as AG rather than that laughable Loretta Lynch lady.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:48 pmI think I finally understand.
Despite the lack of any evidence that Ford intended to move the plant, and the existence of numerous stories that Ford was not moving the plant but just production of one vehicle in a manner that would cost no jobs in Louisville, you are contending that, rather than calling Trump and telling him that they were discontinuing the move of the production of one vehicle (the truth), that perhaps Bill Ford called up Trump and exaggerated things, pretending that he had intended to move the whole plant out of Kentucky, but that Trump had changed his mind.
And that if I were just a critical thinker, and not so blinded by my Trump hatred, that I would see this as a plausible alternative to Trump exaggerating and/or getting the facts wrong because he has the attention span of a housefly with ADD.
Do I have that about right?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:54 pmAnd that, without a recording, we’ll never know whether (on one hand) the head of Ford decided to make up this lie on the spot, in contravention of all past statements, media reports, and his actual intentions, or whether (on the other hand) Trump exaggerated or lied.
Stupid media, treating one possibility as far more likely than the other!
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:56 pm@Patterico:Do I have that about right?
No. You’re injecting a great deal of emotion into an issue about facts.
Trump reported a conversation. We don’t have evidence he did so inaccurately. We have evidence that Ford’s plans are not what Trump apparently thinks they are. Those are two entirely separate issues, but I think you having a hard time separating them because Trump is involved and if it were a figure you were more sympathetic to you would see it more easily.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 8:57 pm@Patterico:And that, without a recording, we’ll never know whether
Not what I said. I said such evidence might take such a form. I’d accept a statement from William Ford saying that he said something quite different but he can see how Trump made the mistake, or a statement from William Ford calling Trump a snake and a liar and that he never called Trump at all. Any number of things would work.
But not the things that were presented in the links, those are not evidence that Ford never called Trump and said what Trump described.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:00 pmExcept for several months of media reports regarding Ford’s intended actions, the statement of its corporate spokespeople, and the complete absence of any shred of evidence that they were ever going to close the plant, or that their chairman has a penchant for making up stories with no basis in fact on the spot about the intentions of his company in conversations with political figures.
On the other hand we have Trump’s long history of truth-telling. And when I take his wretched history of veracity into account, that shows irrationality on my part, because rational and smart people never take a decades-long record of consistent lies into account when evaluating a he-said she-said situation.
My God my bias and emotion are really showing here and your arguments are the very pinnacle of rationality. I doff my cap to you, sir, for your admirable and very judicious manner of evaluating credibility contests. Well done, old chap. I’ll recommend you for a knighthood.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:04 pmThis conversation is every bit as fruitful as I imagined it when I decided not to have it. As that jackass Bill O’Reilly says, I’ll let you have the last word.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:05 pmI am not returning to this thread tonight.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:06 pmbannon’s interview with Michael wolff would seem illuminating,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:07 pmmaybe there is a touch of arrogance,
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steve-bannon-trump-tower-interview-trumps-strategist-plots-new-political-movement-948747
narciso (d1f714) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:17 pm@narcisco:maybe there is a touch of arrogance,
Maybe, maybe not, a guy historically literate enough to know who Thomas Cromwell was, might also know how Cromwell ended up.
Cromwell was arraigned under a bill of attainder and executed for treason and heresy on Tower Hill on 28 July 1540. The king later expressed regret at the loss of his chief minister.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:41 pmYa think?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 9:56 pmI’m just suggesting, now Michael wolff was a weasel, as far back as w’s first days, when he compared him to fredo,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/18/2016 @ 10:00 pm“Like [Andrew] Jackson’s populism, we’re going to build an entirely new political movement,” he says. “It’s everything related to jobs. The conservatives are going to go crazy. I’m the guy pushing a trillion-dollar infrastructure plan. With negative interest rates throughout the world, it’s the greatest opportunity to rebuild everything. Ship yards, iron works, get them all jacked up. We’re just going to throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. It will be as exciting as the 1930s, greater than the Reagan revolution — conservatives, plus populists, in an economic nationalist movement.”
Someone please explain the business cycle to these people. Please.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/18/2016 @ 10:09 pmComing back late to the conversation, but Patterico, I think you and Gabriel are talking at cross purposes. Gabriel’s point is not about Trump but about evidence, and jumping to conclusions based on unstated assumptions. In this case he points out that your unstated and perhaps unrecognised assumption is that Bill Ford would not lie to Trump. Your syllogism is “a. Trump says Bill Ford told him X”, “b. X is false”, therefore “c. Trump lied”. This is not valid logic. Nor is it valid to argue that since Trump is a well-known liar, whereas we know nothing of Bill Ford’s veracity, we should assume Trump is lying in this instance. There is no shortage of liars in the world. You also exclude the possibility that Ford told Trump the truth, but Trump wasn’t paying attention and/or didn’t have the necessary background information to understand it, and innocently misreported what he thought Ford had said.
On the same subject, here’s another example of the same thing:
Note the fast one that the writer hopes to slip past the reader. “The Lincoln plant” in the Trump quote becomes “production of a Lincoln sport utility vehicle” in the paraphrase. It’s wrong no matter what the topic or who the players, and that, I think, is Gabriel’s point here.
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/19/2016 @ 8:24 pmKevin, I’ve seen it spelt that way, but “tsuru” is far removed to bring that to mind.
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/19/2016 @ 8:26 pmexcept the end of the national bank of the united states, coincided with the downturn of 1837,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/19/2016 @ 8:29 pm@Milhouse: You did me no favors by bringing this back up, but you do lay out my case fairly.
Patterico actually made the very same argument I am making here, in defense of Trump, back in 2015. The tl; dr version is this:
Trump said the “real” unemployment rate is higher than official stats and that he had seen estimates as high as 42%. Politico rated that statement “Pants on fire”, but Patterico showed that such an estimate did exist, produced by David Stockman, and that the truth of Trump’s statement did not depend the unemployment rate actually being 42%, only whether he had in fact seen that estimate.
What Politico did there, was what NYT and WSJ did in this case–cited all sorts of estimates much lower than 42% and claim this proved Trump’s statement untrue, which it doesn’t.
In this case we don’t have the evidence that was equivalent to the evidence Patterico had. We may later get it.
Gabriel Hanna (905cbf) — 11/19/2016 @ 11:21 pmMilhouse (40ca7b) — 11/19/2016 @ 8:24 pm
There is also the possibility that Ford knew that Trump was confused, or was being confused by people talking to him, and other people were being confused too, and therefore he made a decision which didn’t make sense (at least to announce and contact some of the people who were being contacted) unless union jobs at the plant in Kentucky were being saved from going to Mexico.
But they weren’t.
It could be that Bill Ford called Trump up and notified him, and didn’t try to un-confuse him about what it meant. It could have been a little conspiracy with the UAW.
If we dig deeper (find other sources) we might find out what was going on.
Sammy Finkelman (704f59) — 11/20/2016 @ 11:18 amOr maybe there indeed would be some more union jobs, or overtime, and dues.
Sammy Finkelman (704f59) — 11/20/2016 @ 11:20 am