Patterico's Pontifications

11/7/2016

“In Defense Of Trump Voters” — Your Must-Read For Today

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:30 am

Class, I have some mandatory reading for you today — especially if you do not plan to vote for Donald Trump. No, it’s not yet another effort to make you change your mind. It is, instead, an eloquent defense of the reasonableness of voting for Trump — written by a Trump opponent: our old friend Dan McLaughlin aka the Baseball Crank. It’s a piece that deserves a standing ovation.

Like me, Dan plans to vote for Evan McMullin. He could never bring himself to vote for Hillary or Trump. However, he shows a deep understanding of the reasons that someone might choose to vote Trump in this election. I agree with almost every word of this piece. It says what I think, but says it better than I ever could. Please: if you read nothing else today, read the entire piece, titled In Defense of Trump Voters. I hope Dan doesn’t mind if I borrow some longish quotes for the purpose of whetting your appetite:

I have many grave concerns about Trump, both as a potential president and as leader of the Republican party, and intend to cast a protest vote for Evan McMullin for those reasons. And I have my own bones to pick with voters who chose Trump over better Republican candidates in the primaries, when we had a choice. But in the context of an American general election, the rancor and scorn directed at his voters is unreasonable and uncharitable, in ways the critics would never direct at themselves or (in the case of liberal criticisms) at their own allies.

There are rational arguments for supporting Trump in the general election against Hillary Clinton, even if I regard those arguments as naive or blind to the realities of Trump. And there are other legitimate reasons that don’t fit neatly into polite, rational, educated debate. Let’s look first at the sophisticated, reasoned justifications offered for voting to Make America Great Again, and then at why the lower-information Trump voters might reasonably decide to support him. We will find that both are rooted, however misguidedly, firmly in defense of the American system.

Dan offers three rational reasons (all of which he ultimately rejects) for voting Trump, and they are all rooted in the binary nature of the election: one of the two bad candidates will win. The reasons are instrumental (Trump will be better on policy), structural (the structure of the D.C. apparatus will resist Trump), and the “drain the swamp” argument. Let me give you the beginning of Dan’s analysis of the “instrumental” argument, as a way to encourage you to read his analysis of the other two:

The first of the three rational arguments for Trump is the instrumental argument. This is the argument that Trump may not mean anything he says or even know what he’s talking about half the time but that electing him would still cause better public-policy results, from a conservative perspective, than electing Hillary. Maybe Trump wouldn’t keep all his promises to appoint conservative judges, but he’d appoint some, and Hillary would appoint none. Maybe Trump would do more to sign parts of Paul Ryan’s legislative and budget agenda than Hillary would. Maybe Trump would hire a lot of Steve Bannon types to work in his White House, but eventually he’d run out of those and have to staff the rest of the executive branch with normal, essentially sober Republicans. Maybe Trump’s basic laziness and lack of understanding of the workings of the system would cede power to Mike Pence, his basically conservative and fundamentally responsible vice president. Maybe, as I’ve speculated before, the Democrats would refuse to do business with Trump, leaving him no real choice but to work with the people who elected him.

That’s a lot of maybes, and a lot of faith placed in a guy who is so renowned for being beyond anyone’s control or influence that the RNC is reduced to arguing in court filings that it literally can’t control Trump when he ignores a consent decree placed on the party years ago. It’s a lot of hope for conservative outcomes from a 70-year-old con man whose instincts have always been those of a big-government statist and social libertine, and who seems to delight in humiliating those who support him. And it underestimates the extent to which weighty foreign-policy decisions are often made by the president almost alone, with little input from Congress and less from the courts.

But for more than a few conservatives, the risks of Trump outweigh the certainties of Hillary. That’s not irrational. Neither is the decision of some conservatives to support Hillary, having made the assessment that the risks of Trump to national security are just too high — although given how terrible Hillary’s foreign-policy record is, I can’t agree with them either.

McLaughlin also explores the attitudes of the more low-information Trump-supporters — and the reasons, rooted in public choice theory, that they do not pay sufficient attention to the candidates and their positions.

There is something here for everyone. If you’re a Trump voter, you’ll certainly recognize the reasons you have decided to vote Trump, expressed in a fair way that shows Dan understands your concerns, and is not belittling them, or you. If you’re a Trump opponent, you get to see Dan bat down those arguments, even as he shows respect for them.

Again: I agree with virtually every word. It’s a tour de force and you have no excuse not to read it, right now. Go.

[Cross-posted at RedState.]

Comments (200)

200 Responses to ““In Defense Of Trump Voters” — Your Must-Read For Today”

But for more than a few conservatives, the risks of Trump outweigh the certainties of Hillary. That’s not irrational. Neither is the decision of some conservatives to support Hillary, having made the assessment that the risks of Trump to national security are just too high — although given how terrible Hillary’s foreign-policy record is, I can’t agree with them either. The past few decades have taught us that control of the Supreme Court carries vastly more power over how we are governed than the political branches do; that accumulation of power has been driven mainly by social-issue liberalism, so liberals can’t really blame anyone but themselves for convincing voters that no price in the degradation of the elected branches is too much to pay in order to claim that prize.

huh

how is this even a paragraph in real life

this is the only place where the court is meaningfully discussed

but I don’t get what he’s trying to say with these words

whatever you make of this though

he doesn’t seem to ask or answer whether Mr. Trump or the pig would do more better on the Supreme Court

that amounts to a crippling oversight in his discussion i think
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:00 am
This election is like Russian roulette. With trump it’s like putting 3 bullets in the chamber. With Hillary it’s like putting 6 bullets in the chamber.
Joe (6b2821) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:07 am
But taking an actuarial hard approach, once the Scalia vacancy is approved (or if it is held off on ad continuum), who is closest to the reaper – Ginsberg and Breyer, I’d even say Sotomayor before Thomas, Alito, and Kennedy (Roberts had some isolated seizure/neurological incident several years back).
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:07 am
Hillary is supposed to be much better choice on foreign policy – but name one foreign exchange policy success that Hillary has accomplished.
Joe (6b2821) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:09 am
I hope to have friendlier correspondence with the GOP nominee’s supporters once this is all behind us. If he wins, I hope we can all unite to insist that he chart a conservative path and do something about the fossilized bureaucracy that has infested Washington DC for the past generation. If he loses, I hope we can all unite to oppose Her Clintonic Majesty’s attempts to drain more of our liberty in order to enrich her corrupt family and her corrupt allies.

I fully understand why one would reluctantly vote for him, and I fully understand why one would reluctantly vote for her. I will never understand why anyone of sound judgement or good conscience would enthusiastically vote for either.
JVW (6e49ce) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:09 am
oh

Dan McLaughlin

he’s just another good little Harvard boi what wants to do an ivy league pig all up in it

same as pervy mitt romney

same as william kristol

same as david french

same as literally hundreds of other nominally conservative butthurt harvardtrash ruling class poopy-poops

was Dan actually a classmate of harvardtrash ted?

lols

the butthurt is strong in this one

i dismiss his poopytwaddle out of hand
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:10 am
Patterico. Really, how is HF different from a vulgar troll?

He isn’t even voting, and he yammers on and on, using the same words.

You may not mind an occasional turd in the punchbowl at your party.

But these aren’t little any more. It’s getting to be more turd than punch.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:14 am
Seriously, could HF even post if “pig all up in it” was filtered?
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:14 am
it’s a little condescending, trump’s voters understand that the issues were what drove the vote,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:14 am
like laslo makes it through althouse’s filter, well quite nearly,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:15 am
Narciso, that guy is nuttier than squirrel poop. We all know that HF *can* post like a normal person, and *chooses* not to do so.

The “pervy” stuff about decent people has long annoyed me. And not just me.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:17 am
i did my assigned reading did you Mr. Jester?

Mr. McLaughlin’s analysis fails in many ways

(number one being his inattention to the issue of the supreme court)

(number two that he glosses over his own personal investment in a status quo and in social prerogatives that Mr. Trump’s election would threaten)

but number three is how his yimmer yammer fails utterly to acknowledge much less meaningfully contend with the populist nature of Mr. Trump’s campaign

hello?

there’s something happening here and what it is may not be super clear but it’s not gonna go away just by ignoring it like this i don’t think

this analysis fails the ctrl f populism test

and i’m just suggesting that hey maybe this is a flaw
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:26 am
Mark Krikorian also makes the point that tomorrow is the only trial Hillary Clinton will ever face for her crimes. “So, members of the jury, what say you?”
crazy (d3b449) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:30 am
excellent observation Mr. crazy

excellent as well as actionable

nicely done
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:32 am
I think it was Milton Friedman who pointed out a republic can’t survive merely by selecting good people to do the right thing. It is necessary instead to motivate BAD people to do the right thing.

Given that both Donald and Hillary are BAD, which one responds better to the electorate? There is of course very little data on Donald. But we know — beyond any reasonable doubt — that Hillary is BAD, does the wrong things, and never regrets or repents or reforms or retreats or responds in any way. To the contrary she benefits from her sins. At some point, it is enough.

Vote to motivate our representatives to do better.
Pouncer (806511) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:38 am
Dan starts by discounting the immigration issue. Sez that current immigration situation is no threat to USA demography, which is prima facie wrong. Then after his three reasons, he sh!ts on the nationalists. P does not like the c-word, but it fits Dan.
gp (c4252b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:38 am
Nope, gp. Part of our problem is using hateful and otherizing language like “the c-word.” Or calling decent people “pervy.” Or fill in the blank.

Folks on the Right should not play into the Left’s narrative. Heck, HF is their poster-troll. All they would need to do is post what he writes to smear a large group of people.

This false macho is stupid. We need to be better than that.

And yes, Mr. Feet, I would gently suggest I read things much more carefully than you do, based on your bizarre responses to things. Above all, you remain a lazy troll.

There is a way to prove you aren’t. Write careful and insightful commentary, like you used to.

We already know you don’t care enough to vote. So I suspect you will continue until you finally piss Patterico off enough to get the boot.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:44 am
it ignores that trump is part of a wave, that crosses the atlantic, with farage and johnson, onto the continent with lepen and sarkozy (to a degree) all the way, to into the interior with kyzinski and orban,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:46 am
this analysis fails the ctrl f populism test

let’s foreground the part where dan comes closest to discussing how an insurgent populism has upended american politics this year

The third rational argument for voting Trump is the moral-hygiene argument, also known as “throw the bums out” or “drain the swamp.” This is specific to the current Clinton scandals involving Hillary’s e-mail server and the Clinton Foundation, but also more broadly to the Clintons’ long career of scandal as well as the general air of immunity and insulation from popular accountability that has grown around official Washington under President Obama. This is the argument that Democrats and liberal elites have basically reached the point where they feel confident being above the law, eroding longstanding norms of democracy, and getting away with almost anything, and that nothing would shock them out of that complacency quite like the voters electing an obviously unqualified blowhard whose main selling point is that he’s not an acceptable member of the club. Like everyone elected on a “throw the bums out” ticket, Trump can always be thrown out himself later.

let’s elide for the moment any observation about how telling it is when a harvard boi wants to invoke ideas of club membership

can anyone spot a glaringly bald omission in his precis of the “moral-hygiene argument”

i can
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:47 am
But Joe, if you put three consecutive bullets in the cylinder it’s like shooting loaded dice.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:47 am
I find that expression, very distateful for a host of reasons,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:49 am
James Madison: “[T]he advice of prudence must be, to embrace the lesser evil; and instead of indulging a fruitless anticipation of the possible mischiefs which may ensue, to contemplate rather the advantageous consequences….”
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:52 am
I live in California where the vote will go overwhelmingly to stinky pig. It is not a happy situation, but it provides me some latitude in how I vote.

Sadly, as a one-party state, few Californians are brave enough to think outside the conventional box. This is especially true here in the Bay Area. It is an entirely unhealthy situation. The Greens have proven an exception to that rule. Jill Stein, the Green Party nominee, has demonstrated a healthy willingness to bash the statist/ corporatist/ transnationalist/ militarist inclinations of the Democratic Party and Mrs. Clinton, in particular. Political dissent, even if it comes from a generally un-appealing source, is a good thing. I’ll be voting for Jill Stein.

By the way, my second biggest objection to Trump (right behind my concerns about his emotional stability) is that I believe his beggar-thy-neighbor, anti-trade positions will lead to trade wars, global depression and military conflict, just as occurred during the 1930s.

Finally, it is this article by Ross Douthat the best reflects my thinking.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:53 am
No SJ, the words we use are not a significant part of any significant problem WE face. The LEFT has a problem with our words, which is why they fight so viciously against free speech, mainly ours. Conservatives who grovel to lefty admonishments on speech are the ones who the c-word was coined for. Dan wants to dismiss the deplorables, same as HRC. He’s virtue-signaling.
gp (c4252b) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:58 am
It’s a word salad.

JR’s menu is fast food and taco bowls.
Maudie? Who knows…

“My robe, Antoninus. My taste includes both snails and oysters.” – Marcus Licinius Crassus [Sir Laurence Olivier] ‘Spartacus’ 1960
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:00 pm
Or should I say “shells” for the “clip” nazis?
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:03 pm
Mark Krikorian also makes the point that tomorrow is the only trial Hillary Clinton will ever face for her crimes. “So, members of the jury, what say you?”

crazy (d3b449) — 11/7/2016 @ 11:30 am
===================================

Get. A. Rope.
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:04 pm
the financial times link is locked,

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-07/impeachment-process-starts-french-president-hollande-disclosing-classified-informati

you can see why he’s for red queen,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:07 pm
@27. Getta Rhope.

Clinton aide or Bond girl?
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:07 pm
there was of course the clash of the optimates, and the populares, which decided the last decades of the roman republic
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:10 pm
“hateful and otherizing?” That jargon is right out of the lefty SJW playbook. Anybody who rejects arguments by calling them “otherizing” needs to be laughed at or ignored.
gp (c4252b) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:11 pm
Urbanleftbehind

I guess Thomas’ wife backed off on all those butter and eggs to the chagrin of the lefty commentator whose name eludes me.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:13 pm
happyfeet complains of Dan’s alleged inattention to the Supreme Court. But you don’t even have to click through to Dan’s piece to see that is an unfair characterization. All you have to do is actually read the post I wrote right there above these comments, including the excerpts from Dan’s piece I included, which contain this:

Maybe Trump wouldn’t keep all his promises to appoint conservative judges, but he’d appoint some, and Hillary would appoint none.
Patterico (5b52e5) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:13 pm
julianne malveaux, and she seemed to be the one with the cholesterol problem
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:14 pm
judges is different than justices Mr. P

for one thing the Supreme Court’s where failmerica’s increasing corruption and lawlessness is being validated
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:16 pm
Michael Moore: “Trump’s Election Will Be The Biggest (expletive deleted) You Ever Recorded In Human History”

The detestable Mr. Moore certainly gets it. And with an economy of language that is truly remarkable.

Even if you are anti-Trump, as I am, I get it too. It is a richly deserved sentiment. Is it really so hard to understand the enthusiastic Trump voter?
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:16 pm
I was very pleased about this post, because it says so very well what I have been trying to get across for months: I respect people who choose to vote Trump for reasons that are often articulated by people here. Just because I do not agree does not mean I do not respect the choice. And Dan says it so well. SO well!

Oh well. Maybe the gesture I am making will be recognized for what it was after the election is over.
Patterico (5b52e5) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:16 pm
Simon Jester

Every time you scold its like giving a lab rat another bump.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:17 pm
“Justices” is subsumed within “judges.”
Patterico (5b52e5) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:18 pm
What’s the Latin for ‘Who Will Tweak The Tweaker’?
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:20 pm
Justice Thomas has a demeanor and temperament which neutralizes bad diet and sedentary lifestyle.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:23 pm
from this spring,

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/22/illegal-immigrant-families-set-record-pace-2016/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:23 pm
the Supreme Court is special though

for example for another thing, the quest for Supreme Court dominance has long been the holy grail for america’s ridiculous social conservatives

and this was for a reason

but now quite suddenly

it’s incredibly interesting to see the importance of the Supreme Court being downplayed so conspicuously isn’t it

yes it is
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:25 pm
yes, on paper, john roberts seemed the perfect candidate, then again maybe being a student of lawrence tribe was a flag,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:28 pm
In recent months, I’ve given up reading and posting comments elsewhere. For me, this is the last, best haven.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:28 pm
> the American family could use a lot less malice and a little more charity toward our fellow voters all around.

Hear, hear.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:30 pm
Hmm, it was so messy and embarrassing to support Stalin during WWII. Maybe it sullied our morals. Maybe we should have remained neutral rather than appear to provide legitimacy to such a piece of shit. Eh?
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:32 pm
ThOR: while breaking down the corporatist/militarist/statist inclinations of the Democratic Party is good, Stein is not, overall, a good candidate.

I registered as a Republican in May so that I could vote for the most likely not-Trump to win. That’s how I voted in June, and it’s how I will vote tomorrow.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:33 pm
The arguments seems reasonable (though a little on the wordy side) until I saw these nuggets:

…..encouraging similar candidates in the future, and encouraging those in our society who would imitate Trump by rehabilitating open racial bigotry………people who pushed birtherism, and voters who studied the topic obsessively without changing their minds, were crazy, racist, or both — Donald Trump included.

This the kind of BS I would expect to hear in a college faculty lounge. Trump may be encouraging racists to come out of the closet, but there is nothing he has said or done that convinces me he is “racist”. I remember how he was accused of racism for suggesting a US judge of Mexican heritage could not judge him fairly. First, Mexicans are not a race, they form a multiracial nation with a distinct culture (like the US). Second, Nearly all Hispanics (with the exception of Cubans) vote Democrat. Third, many Mexicans were offended with Trump correctly accused Mexico of treating the U.S. like a demographic pressure valve. In effect, there was a rational basis for Trump’s concern over the judge’s bias, but it was boneheaded on Trump’s part to express this in public.

As for the birtherism story, the only people I expect to call it “racist” are leftists and pusillanimous Republicans who hope this sort of virtue signaling might discourage the media from saying mean things about them. Once again, I attribute Trump’s use of this meme to his boneheadedness.

Once again, I despise Trump, but I voted for him for reasons I have thoroughly elucidated. The best conservative reason not to vote for Trump is that he might undermine the Republican brand for many years to come. But a Hillary presidency may very well take this country to the point of no return.
Tony (ff2fe4) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:33 pm
Hmm, it was so messy and embarrassing to support Stalin during WWII. Maybe it sullied our morals. Maybe we should have remained neutral rather than appear to provide legitimacy to such a piece of s**t. Eh?
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:34 pm
It’s enormously frustrating to get people to accept that Trump is different in the scale and degree of these things, but if you talk to people who think the whole political system is a racket full of terrible people (and it’s not crazy to think of it that way), you can see why many of them just tune a lot of the negatives out. They see the things that people like Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy got away with for years — and were defended for — and write off the predations of powerful men on women as a part of the system. They see Barack Obama embrace Al Sharpton and bend his knee at a preacher who denounced America in nasty racial terms, and they figure what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. They remember, if they are old enough, open segregationists being a routine part of the Democratic party.

Probably a universal beef, as they go, but it resonates personally after conversations with Italians about their politics: Berlusconi was the least worst of a bad lot, by some lights.

Not an encouraging thought.
JP (f1742c) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:35 pm
Thank you, ThOR. Such comments are especially appreciated at this particular time.
Patterico (5b52e5) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:35 pm
People who ask for the full text of Hillary’s secret speeches are not often accused of sexism for doing so. So I don’t agree that asking for a copy of Obama’s longform birth certificate was necessarily racist. The fact is, many legal experts agree that Obama would not have been born a US citizen if born outside the United States (because of US law at that time regarding citizenship of the parents), and that was unusual for a presidential candidate.
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:42 pm
Justice Thomas and Dick Cheney are proof to the left that only the good die young.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:44 pm
A Trump Administration will last four years.
But illary’s Supreme Court Justices will be forever.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:44 pm
Even if you are anti-Trump, as I am, I get it too. It is a richly deserved sentiment. Is it really so hard to understand the enthusiastic Trump voter?

Well, ThOR, that’s an interesting question. I liken it quite casually and inaptly to receiving your inheritance from a deceased parent. You may be kind of excited about receiving the money, but propriety dictates that you should deeply regret the process which made it available. So in that regard you shouldn’t show up to the settling of the estate with a big smile on your face.
JVW (6e49ce) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:45 pm
Conversely, those who say that Obama’s political support was not motivated partly by his race are a bit naïve. Personally, I have always followed the color blind approach.
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:45 pm
Thank you Patterico. I for one appreciated your post. As well reasoned as the the McLaughlin piece is it overlooks the endemic lawlessness that will either be ratified or rejected by the electorate when all the votes are counted tomorrow. No future revelations about the Clintons or their associates will ever get any farther than the email review has if Hillary prevails at the polls. All the other stuff we argue about will work itself out. I think that’s the point McLaughlin misses.

The rule of law in America is on the line tomorrow and taking a stand is the only way to protect it.
crazy (d3b449) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:46 pm
I read that piece before Patterico posted it here. I saw that he rejected his three “rational” arguments, but I did not see that he “refuted” them. He said they were wrong, certainly. But calling an argument wrong is not refuting it.

The facts of the 2016 election are not much in dispute. It’s the weight given to different facts that leads to reasonable people disagreeing about what is best to do.

I notice he mentions his vote for Ewan McMullin without mentioning McMullin’s statement that in his experience the Republican party is full of racists, or whether he agrees with it.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:55 pm
A status quo has developed in both parties that I detest and fear. With the Trump nomination, Republicans have cast off the yoke of the GOPe. This is, undoubtedly, the best news in the Trump nomination. That Jeb! took just 5 percent of the primary vote is a monumental accomplishment of which we should be proud.

In voting for Bernie Sanders, many Democrats stood up the the Democratic elite. When I realized the Trump nomination was a sure thing, I switched parties so I could vote for Bernie. It was a vote against the same sort of corruption I object to on the Republican side.

One just wonders what would have happened in the Democratic contest if Comey hadn’t put his thumb on the scales of justice, or if the Clinton mafia lacked they dirt to blackmail Sanders, or both. My liberal Democrat, Bernie-supporting friends are every bit as livid as most Trump voters I know. Perhaps, more so. In this election, I’m with them, even though I’m a Cruz-Republican at heart.

I fully understand Stein’s shortcomings. I don’t really support her. I support the weakening of the party elites on both sides, including the Democratic Party elite. I believe a vote for Stein will help.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:00 pm
I suppose that’s one thing a bit annoying to me about #NeverTrump is that a lot of them, not by any means all of them, act as though a vote for Trump is an endorsement or defense of anything and everything Trump may do; but they do not apply this principle to themselves.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:01 pm
mcmuffin’s also a hyper-dogmatic purveyor of the climate change hoax

it’s very troubling
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:01 pm
But for more than a few conservatives, the risks of Trump outweigh the certainties of Hillary

It’s the other way around. There are more certainties with Trump.

We know where he stands right now. He could do unexpected bad things because he’s an ignoramus, but Hillary could do anything because she’s corrupt.
Sammy Finkelman (643dcd) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:05 pm
Actually, “In Defense Of Trump Voters” is rather condescending given the NR source and their non-endorse. The Cubs won. Cleveland lost.

“A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.” – Connie Brean [Robert DeNiro] ‘Wag The Dog’ – 1997
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:06 pm
Gabriel Hanna, Patterico has already said that “The Trumpers here defend Duke”. I personally have not been insulted any worse in my life, and have nothing but condemnation for Duke. The MSM says Trump likes Duke, ergo Trump is racist, ergo Hillary should win, but all I’ve heard from Trump are disavowals of Duke (both before and after the “earpiece” incident).
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:07 pm
i’ve never even heard of anyone named Duke
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:10 pm
For the conspiracy minded, if McMullin were to somehow affect the outcome will Wikileaks reveal it was all a CIA plot to pick a president?
crazy (d3b449) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:11 pm
I am quite surprised, actually, that there have been no new revelations from either side in the last 24 hours,
It makes me wonder if the WikiLeaks people were paid enough or otherwise made an offer that they couldn’t refuse
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:14 pm
WikiLeaks has gone dark because of a cyber attack.

http://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2016/11/07/nothing-to-see-here-twitter-goes-dark-wikileaks-reports-cyber-attack-overnight/
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:18 pm
Tony (ff2fe4) — 11/7/2016 @ 12:33 pm

In effect, there was a rational basis for Trump’s concern over the judge’s bias,

Only if you knew nothing about the case.

The judge in fact was NOT biased against him, and allowed him to postpone his testimony till after the election.

Trump claimed the judge was biased because he hadn’t dismissed the case.

Tim Kaine in the vice presieential debate mad ethe claim that Trump had claimed that the judge was “unqualified” because he was Mexican (in otehr words that trump thought Mexicans were uneducated or stupid) but Hillary made mor eaccurate accusation later in the third debate.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=119039

He went after a federal judge, born in Indiana, but who Donald said couldn’t be trusted to try the fraud and racketeering case against Trump University because his parents were Mexican.

Wow! 185 proof truth coming from Hillary!

Well, maybe not. But that’s why I said 185 proof and not 200 proof.

Actually, she made Trump’s claim better and clearer than Trump did himself.

With Hillary, there’s always got to some sort of lie in there somewhere. She improved it so that Trump couldn’t say: “What I really meant was…”
Sammy Finkelman (643dcd) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:19 pm
The “Republicans are racists” meme has existed for as long as I can remember. Barrack Obama and Louis Farrakhan are bff, but Republicans are the racists. Give it a rest.

That we have become a party of lickspittles is an important factor in the emergence of the alt right and Donald Trump.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:24 pm
I personally don’t believe that continuing our current immigration policy presents an existential demographic threat to American culture and democratic institutions;

This sentiment is what divides the electorate I think. Personally I believe it an alarmingly dangerous blind spot that nevertrumpers foolishly dismiss. California has been so lost to republicans through illegal demographic change that there isn’t even a republican choice for the open US Senate seat this election. This happened over a generation or two, but with Obama’s accelerated open borders policy, and even greater effort promised by Hillary, the entire country will be in the shape California is in now by 2020. Democrats will rule unopposed and unaccountable until we look like Venezuela and/or the next bloody civil war erupts.

In short, the author, in dismissing this issue, misses the biggest reason for voting Trump. Maintaining the USA as a sovereign country, or going along with the globalist agenda where America s just another vassal state in the One World order.

As for the constant refrain that Trump is a “bad man”, I reject categorically. This is the claim of people indoctrinated in feminism to the point where any projection of masculinity is “bad”, and needs to be stomped out and demonized. As far as I’m concerned, anyone crying about Trump being a ” bad man” are just twenty first century snowflakes offended by their own nads.

Neverrumpers fantasy of preserving the republican brand from Trump will only result in the election of Hillary and a perpetual progressive nightmare ending in submission to MEN in turbans and American women in burkas.

May God give us the wisdom to elect the nationalist warrior we need now, not the criminal globalist we deserve, amen.
LBascom (fb10a4) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:35 pm
“In effect, there was a rational basis for Trump’s concern over the judge’s bias….”. My understanding is that Judge Curiel is a member of the Hispanic National Bar Association, which called for a boycott of Trump’s businesses before Trump publicly criticized Curiel.
Andrew (52f196) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:46 pm
EggaMuffin…

http://twitchy.com/loriz-3139/2016/11/07/wth-gop-before-you-vote-check-out-what-evan-mcmullin-just-said-about-you-its-gross/
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 1:57 pm
Read it. I like Klavan’s piece much more.
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:03 pm
“BUT BY ALL MEANS, PLEASE VOTE FOR HIS SUCCESSOR. Leaked Bill Clinton Speech: Obama Years Left No Hope For White Working Class.”

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/248578/
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:05 pm
“Trump is clearly better. This is an election in which either candidate can sling mud endlessly without ever straying from the truth. I’ve already said what I think of Trump. Hillary Clinton is a corrupt, lying, cheating, anti-constitutional bully and ideologue with plans to destroy both our First and Second Amendments. Those who claim her corruption does not outdo Watergate are not thinking clearly. To see it plain, you have to combine her misdeeds with the fact that Obama has already turned the federal government into precisely the kind of Democrat machine that brought us Son of Sam New York in the ’70s, and desolate Detroit today. Hillary is already part of that machine, and once she’s at the helm of it, she will add her own particular brand of money-grubbing malfeasance to the ideological malfeasance Obama has put in place. With our major news outlets run by see-no-evil Democrats, it’s a recipe for Boss Tweed America, maybe the worst abuse of the federal government we’ve ever known…”

https://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2016/11/06/why-ill-vote-for-donald-trump/
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:12 pm
Andrew

Instead of Stalin or Hitler America should have voted for Evan Luxembourg.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:13 pm
May be a reason for that, MD… https://www.rt.com/news/365576-wikileaks-servers-dos-attack/
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:14 pm
Thanks, Andrew
I guess that is a version of what I was wondering

I think the demographics argument is missing the point a bit,
if our ideas are correct about the nature of people and government,
they are correct for every demographic
We have to win the info wars
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:17 pm
CS

A Trump administration is only skin deep.

Hillary go straight to the bone.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:18 pm
Thanks to you too,
Colonel

The Big Boys are playing rough.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:19 pm
well we’re back to the roundrobin, anyways wood’s has an interesting perspective, on russell kirk’s view of war, he attributes the future antiamericanism to the gulf war, whereas there are a host of other pre-existing conditions as it were, notably the influence of the ikwan in north africa and the levant region,
not to mention the subcontinent, but there is some truth in it, that we picked the wrong fight initially against saddam,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 2:27 pm
“I think the demographics argument is missing the point a bit,
if our ideas are correct about the nature of people and government,
they are correct for every demographic
We have to win the info wars”

That is a false premise. John Adams pointed out that “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”.

We are not following a policy of immigration for the benefit of the nation, we are allowing an invasion of foreign cultures that are encouraged in their diversity instead of being assimilated into the American “ideas” of man and government. While being told diversity is our strength rather than unity under a common culture.

And people say Trump is a con man…
LBascom (fb10a4) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:04 pm
I think you have jumped to a conclusion concerning what I meant,LB
Because I agree with your comment from Adams 100%.

Information means discussion of virtue,
If there are sufficient virtuous to make the case,
then we are ok,
but if the virtuous are wanting,
then we are going down whether we have immigrants or not.

I am all for controlling the border,
I am all for the rule of law,

Once upon a time people came here looking for those things.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:12 pm
“To me, capitalism is an Apple store. Socialism is the Department of Motor Vehicles … sweaty, pissed off workers who can’t get fired. And they laugh at you … ha, ha, ha ha … you got the wrong line you f***ing idiot.”

— Dana Carvey
Colonel Haiku (40880a) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:19 pm
I’m not sure going to Iraq initially was the wrong fight if we actually wanted to win. I’ve always argued it was a strategic necessity to invading Afghanistan to guard our flank, as it were. The problem was we lacked the resolve in securing the country after our initial victory; allowing too much civil unrest instead of pressing the initiative.

There were other problems of course, Turkey withdrawing her resources, Pakistan allowing Taliban refuge, and the treasonous democrats like Hillary that voted for the war and then withdrew support and fought against success.

In retrospect we should have just bombed Bagdad and Kabul to rubble and announced Mecca was next for any further terrorist attacks. Our constitutional ideas for government are not adequate for the middle eastern barbarians.
LBascom (fb10a4) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:21 pm
If I misread you MD I apologize.

If it helps, that last line wasn’t meant to be directed at you, but for the uniparty establishment telling us open borders and blanket amnesty is “who we are” as America.

It’s national suicide is what it is.
LBascom (fb10a4) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:34 pm
I just love how the #NeverTrump crowd which engages in nasty name-calling is calling for a time and place when there won’t be anymore name-calling. (LOL)
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:40 pm
#87

In retrospect we should have just bombed Bagdad and Kabul to rubble and announced Mecca was next for any further terrorist attacks.

70 years post WWII has proved that decision to destroy the german and japanese war culture was the correct decision. Today both societies are productive members of the world society (not withstanding merkel) It is time to recognize and perform the same sucessful policy
joe (debac0) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:43 pm
I hate hygienic war, with its drone strikes, cruise missiles and use of other precision-guided munitions.

Give me carpet bombing any day.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/7/2016 @ 3:59 pm
No apology necessary, LB,
I may have been a bit hasty as well

All cultures/morality are equal,
Just some are more equal than others,
Is inherently logically inconsistent,
But that usually doesn’t slow them down
Later, got to go
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:00 pm
You can put lipstick on a pig but it will still be Trump.

01000001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01001001 00100111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00100000 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00101110
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:12 pm
“It’s the big fact of American life now, isn’t it? That we are patronized by our inferiors.”

— Peggy Noonan
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:25 pm
Every single foreign demographic that comes into the country votes for the left. Doesn’t matter if they are European, Asian, African, or South American. Encouraging foreign immigration is guaranteed suicide for the experiment known as the United States of America.

That is the issue and the primary reason I will vote to stop Hillary Clinton. There is no melting pot. It’s all about balkanization and destroying the heritage of our nation. That is the goal of the left.

It shocks me how many people on here have a blind spot when it comes to immigration for fear of being called a racist.
NJRob (7a7e3e) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:26 pm
If you really feel H will help the country along in a way you feel is correct, I could understand your vote. Otherwise, a wasted statement. I have read this site for some bit of time and must say I am disappointed in your support a certifiable criminal.
Goon (5fdf0b) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:31 pm
no, I meant the gulf war, in retrospect I concur with ross perot, the beneficiaries were the kingdom and kuwait, the last provided the entire baloch clan, that included ksm, and currently they supply the islamic state and their varsity counterparta
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:33 pm
Very true, NJRob. I point back to the post SWC left on another thread here Saturday morning. What don’t people get about this country being forcibly, irrevocably changed? They think things will improve? Based on what evidence, exactly?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:35 pm
Welcome aboard, LBascom. If “diversity” is so wonderful why is nobody suggesting importing 20 million Syrians to Japan?
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:37 pm
nk, the Cubs won, so you’ll be voting for Trump.
That’s awesome!
Of course, you’ll still have to explain to all the “principled” (LOL!) conservatives how your vote was dependent upon the 10th inning of game 7.
They ‘aint gonna like ‘dat.
They gonna take ya out b’hind the woodshed an teach’ya some Tex-us jusstice ’bout votin’!
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:38 pm
I am not voting for Trump.
I do not accept the results of the World Series.
It was rigged.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:42 pm
Besides, it was happyfeet who convinced me that it was irrational and whimsical (and stupid) to vote for someone based on how some sports team did. You can take it up with him
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:46 pm
If this election has done anything, it has helped me to refine my political views, consider how much conservatism is worth to me and much I am willing, or unwilling, to see it compromised and weakened. It’s the difference between looking at the here and now, and looking at years to come and the undoing that might occur.

Also, while I know that some people have taken a lot of heat for their various stands here, it’s one to have someone on the internet ridicule and mock your position, but it pales in comparison to have it happen in real life. And that’s where I’m currently finding myself. People that are near and dear to me, family members with whom I don’t see eye to eye and respectfully avoid mixing it up with because it won’t change their minds, yet their ardent pro-Trump stand inevitably results in an attitude of disbelief and disdain that I am not on board because as a conservative, how could I not be? They insist it’s a binary choice, that a vote not cast for Trump is a vote for Hillary. I don’t see it that way. Anyway, to me the slings and arrows in a comment section are fairly easy to bear in comparison.

I can’t wait for this election to be over with, and get the next horrible four years going. Because no matter who wins, it is indeed going to be horrible.
Dana (d17a61) — 11/7/2016 @ 4:56 pm
Dana,

It is a binary choice. Just as Senator Cruz understands one of two people will become President.

Denial isn’t healthy. You can choose to be a Happyfascist and abstain, but you are making a choice as to the direction of this nation.

Thank you Colonel Haiku.
NJRob (7a7e3e) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:05 pm
nk, so in other words, you’re going back on your promise to vote for Trump if the Cubs won the World Series.
Sad!

You can blame the man on the moon, or Bush, or Chester Arthur, but at the end of the day, you asserted the promised numerous times.
Now you’re going back on it.

Next time you cry, “Wolf!,” people might just say, “Yeah, right, we heard that before.”
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:12 pm
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nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:12 pm
Dana,

It’s a binary outcome — either Trump or illary will become the next President.
Wanna put some money on it?
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:15 pm
To whom did I promise and what consideration did I receive in return? Even if it was a serious statement of present intent, I could change my mind. Just like the other day, when I started out for McDonald’s and went to the Jewel instead.

Anyway, the whole Cubs season was rigged to make money for the MLB. It was totally scripted like WWF wrestling matches.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:17 pm
“The late William Safire called Hillary Clinton a congenital liar 20 years ago, and he didn’t even know of the next 20 years of lies.”

— Charles Krauthammer
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:17 pm
it’s a very gonzo election, and when the going gets weird, the weird go pro,

http://dcwhispers.com/julian-assange-explains-how-the-house-of-saud-owns-hillary-clinton-video/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:18 pm
> In effect, there was a rational basis for Trump’s concern over the judge’s bias

*Presuming* that a judge is biased *because of his membership in an ethnic group* is close enough to racism in my book. Absent *specific* evidence that the *individual* is biased, it’s wrong to assume bias because of group membership.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:26 pm
and we’ve subsequently discovered how in the tank, curiel was because of his wife, but they present a pleasant facade, as with the khans, and it’s in the interest of few to actually challenge it,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:33 pm
like I say it’s not in the interest of people to look,

https://twitter.com/SaraCarterDC/status/795774511719337991
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:38 pm
An upset would be nice.
I’ll do my bit.
SarahW (3164f0) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:38 pm
Was that case shopped around or dropped on Curiel?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:38 pm
everyone should know by nary Mr. Trump’s the very best choice for example he’s not a diseased corrupt criminal stenchpig

who’ll command a corrupt and sleazy irs

a corrupt and sleazy fbi

a corrupt and sleazy department of justice

she’ll impoverish so so many

and get loads of people killed

she’s a cancer on the breast of our nation

what’s say we NOT do that pig all up in it

just a lil food for thought there
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:40 pm
If you sat down to make a list of all the offensively stupid things Trump has said in the past year, you’d keep yourself busy until this time next year.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:41 pm
nk, you made numerous pontifications about how you intended to vote for Trump “only” if the Cubs were to win the World Series.
Well, the Cubs won, and now you’re expected to follow through on your end of the promise.

Following through on one’s promise is a conservative virtue.
One of the key things you’ve been pounding Trump for is that he’s been a flip-flopper.
You don’t want to be burdened by the irony, do you?
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:44 pm
Gallup Surveys the Bum Fight

Additional evidence of Trump’s fully earning the 69% rating will be provided tomorrow.
Rick Ballard (bca473) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:45 pm
I read that it was assigned to him by Judge Irma Gonzales.

I am much more troubled by the play for pay crimes that Hillary Clinton appears to be guilty of. And that the Clinton Foundation gives only 5 to 6% of the hundreds of millions of dollars it rakes in to charitable organizations (not the 60% legitimate organization give out) and spends the rest on salaries, travel and Lord knows what else. That makes it a money laundering operation in my opinion.

What say you, aphrael?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:47 pm
Do you know the difference between a necessary and sufficient condition? Hell freezing over (or the Cubs winning the World Series) was a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:48 pm
Aphrael

What about membership in an ethnic organization?
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:59 pm
@117- yes, often the truth offends. Is why proggs love PC. It makes rational thought impossible. See: Havel… http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/165havel.html

The post-totalitarian system touches people at every step, but it does so with its ideological gloves on. This is why life in the system is so thoroughly permeated with hypocrisy and lies: government by bureaucracy is called popular government; the working class is enslaved in the name of the working class; the complete degradation of the individual is presented as his ultimate liberation; depriving people of information is called making it available; the use of power to manipulate is called the public control of power, and the arbitrary abuse of power is called observing the legal code; the repression of culture is called its development; the expansion of imperial influence is presented as support for the oppressed; the lack of free expression becomes the highest form of freedom; farcical elections become the highest form of democracy; banning independent thought becomes the most scientific of world views; military occupation becomes fraternal assistance. Because the regime is captive to its own lies, it must falsify everything. It falsifies the past. It falsifies the present, and it falsifies the future. It falsifies statistics. It pretends not to possess an omnipotent and unprincipled police apparatus. It pretends to respect human rights. It pretends to persecute no one. It pretends to fear nothing. It pretends to pretend nothing.
{10}Individuals need not believe all these mystifications, but they must behave as though they did, or they must at least tolerate them in silence, or get along well with those who work with them. For this reason, however, they must live within a lie. They need not accept the lie. It is enough for them to have accepted their life with it and in it. For by this very fact, individuals confirm the system, fulfill the system, make the system, are the system.
LBascom (fb10a4) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:01 pm
Aphrael

I thought i had some tortillas left but if i do where are they
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:01 pm
A guy can’t choose to be born Daryl; but he can choose whether or not to become Neegan. And I would not want Neegan or Lucile trying my case.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:04 pm
It’s time to round up the Cubs for rigging an election.

Say it ain’t so.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:08 pm
Sarah Carter…come with me if you want to vote.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:10 pm
I keep imagining that when the FBI checks into Hillary’s maid it will turn out she’s a retired Navy SEAL like Steven Segal in Under Seige.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:13 pm
And so, the end nears. The crutches hobble on to the stage at Independence Mall. Bubba and Chelsea plead, Michelle crows and Barack apologies for his failings while Bonjovi and Springsteen echo along Market Street…

It is a Dallas vs. Maude election.

So ask yourself: do you want to endure four years of Hagman haggling as Tilton, Principal and Grey jiggle into your living room across a 40 inch screen? Or do you yearn for a pantsuited, finger wagging Bea Arthur, lecturing you like your first wife from 1975, pointing out your flaws while demanding you take out the garbage in the middle of the 4th quarter of Monday Night Football?

This is your choice: J.R. Ewing or Maude Findlay.

Because Americans do not want to be governed. They wish to be entertained.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:13 pm
so, we can ascertain certain trends,

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/11/07/florida-data-ballots-and-ground-reports-latino-vote-supports-patrone-impact/

based on one macro example,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:13 pm
maybe she’s abu sayyaf, riffing off an old ncis episode, the second season cliffhanger)
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:15 pm
much more like stella mudd, or mrs. kravitz,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:16 pm
the original tale had them, just vamoosing, that the story the puffington host picked up,

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/11/07/benghazi-guards-turned-on-us-diplomats-in-2012-attack-sources-say.html

it was more like a fifth column, or the trojan horse,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:18 pm
DCSCA, I hope you’ll stick around after the final tally. Love your movie quotes.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:19 pm
In McLaughlin’s example of Trump being uncontrolled , (this link: https://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/dnc-v-rnc-ballot-security-consent-decree-fight?utm_term=.ytzjWQOOaK#.ubg8jKwwLJ ) it says

Trump’s focus on a “rigged election” and at encouraging supporters to “watch” voting in “certain areas” led the DNC’s lawyers to file a request that the RNC be held in contempt for violating the consent decree.

It sounds like the RNC agreed to never look for voter fraud or “rigged elections” in those precincts where we routinely hear reports of 110% voter turn outs for the Democrats.

What do we call it? Party of stupid?

Another choice paragraph from that buzzfeed article;

Fast-forward to 2016, and Democratic lawyers argue that the RNC has violated the consent decree, which is due to expire on Dec. 1, 2017. The penalty for such a violation is dramatic — an eight-year extension of the agreement.

So the penalty for refusing to abide by an obnoxious one-sided agreement designed to abet voter fraud is an automatic extention of the obnoxious one sided agreement by 8 years?

Huh?
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:22 pm
Colonel Haiku

Chelsea’s wedding couldn’t have cost more than 10,000 Hatian lives.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:26 pm
this is much like the tory party in phineas redux, they actually conjure up a ‘cunning, cunning’ plan to disestablish the church of england,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:26 pm
God bless her, my 85 year old mother just blurted out to the TV: “She’s so full of it. Shut up!”

The Goldwater Girl is alive and well in her.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:28 pm
Speaking of Chelsea, ‘member when her MIL went to cast the winning vote for Clinton’s bill with two broken arms and she got tossed out of Congress?

So funny.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:30 pm
and her fil went to prison for bank fraud, yes they commiserate like the merlyn and queen clans, on arrow,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:33 pm
Seems to me if there were a court case this consent decree would make a nice exhibit of ‘rigging an election’.
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:35 pm
So did Ivanka’s father in law. Two New York crime families, lacking the dignity of the Maranzanos and Masserias.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:36 pm
What do we have to look forward to, people?

We didn’t think anyone could top John Ashcroft covering up a statue’s breasts and then Obama covered up Jesus and everyone was like,”No way!”.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:39 pm
.It shocks me how many people on here have a blind spot when it comes to immigration for fear of being called a racist.

Yet your attitude is bigoted. I assume that you honestly don’t think it is, so I refuse to call you a bigot: but that attitude is bigoted. You are assuming that all those foreigners can not be persuaded/educated into understanding that limited government/free market is good for them and good in general. Which means you are biased against them…or that you don’t actually believe in limited government. Because if limited government is good, they could be educated and persuaded to support it. Yet you apparently don’t want to even try.
kishnevi (3ebfe9) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:40 pm
“Blue is the colour,
football is the game;
We’re all together,
and winning is our aim;
So cheer us on through the sun and rain
’cause Chelsea, Chelsea is our name.”

Can you guess where her name came from?
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:41 pm
you could apply it either way, in the land of westeros, have you watched arrow,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:41 pm
One thing I have to say about the candidates is that I don’t see either one bowing to or holding hands with Saudi royalty.

Who wants to speculate on President Hillary wearing some kind of headscarf in the first hundred days?
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:45 pm
137 narciso

What we have here is a failure to excommunicate.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:47 pm
Ohhhhh Chelsea. You’re just the Georgie Best, ain’t ‘cha.=sigh=
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:47 pm
you haven’t been paying attention, leaving out the apocryphal contribution from king salman, the juffali, who’s late kin looked suspiciously like gene simmons, the al rashid, olayan, alamoudis were big contributors to the foundation,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:48 pm
The original judge who oversaw the case for decades, Judge Dickinson R. Debevoise, died in 2015. As of Oct. 27, Chief Judge Jerome Simandle reassigned the case to Judge Vazquez, who held a telephone conference that afternoon with the parties regarding the DNC’s request. Vazquez was nominated to the bench in early 2015 by President Obama and confirmed by the Senate in January.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/05/politics/rnc-did-not-violate-new-jersey-consent-decree/index.html

— A federal judge Michael Vazquez in New Jersey on Saturday ruled that the Republican National Committee has not engaged in certain “ballot security” activities directed at deterring qualified voters from the polls in collaboration with the Trump campaign.

No foul. Case dismissed.
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:49 pm
a very stupid plan, done for foolish reasons, attacking the core of their supporters,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:49 pm
NK

I’m sure everything Ivanka’s FIL did was kosher.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:49 pm
@147 Commander in Kerchief?
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:52 pm
You are assuming that all those foreigners can not be persuaded/educated into understanding that limited government/free market is good for them and good in general.

I have no doubt that these foreigners are in favor of limiting (or erasing altogether) the border security portion of government.
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:53 pm
Dana@103
Tell your family something like I just dropped as a comment on a Facebook friend’s post. He used to be a Libertarian (bigL) but has changed over the years through Tea Party into straight out Trumpism, mostly because of social issues. He did vote for Cruz in the primary.

Said I to him, “By voting for Trump, you voted for authoritarian statism. Your only argument with the Left now is over which form of authoritarian statism will rule us.”

But I sympathize with your predicament. None of my family, real world friends, or co-workers knows for whom I voted. And on FB, only one person knows, the guy who I dropped that comment on.
kishnevi (3ebfe9) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:54 pm
They probably find stop signs and vehicle codes annoying too.
papertiger (c8116c) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:55 pm
and I think that’s a little overwrought, kish, imho,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:56 pm
Personally, I’d suggest that everyone who lives in a non-swing-state is in a different position from a swing state voter. A non swing state voter has, IMHO, far more freedom to make a protest vote, because there are no consequences.

For me, though I have loads of qualms about Trump, I sum up why I voted for him in two words: Hillary Clinton.
Arizona CJ (b4cd1f) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:02 pm
he’s kind fo an iconoclastic curmudgeon,

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2016/11/07/donald-trump-vs-the-sleepwalkers/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:03 pm
Kishnevi

I was at a clinic today and happened to meet an xray tech from Egypt.

He did xray for 20 years in Egypt before emigrating here. If he had gone to xray school in the past five years he would have been fine. But with 20 years of experience and his schooling that many years ago he had to devote two years and 50k in order to start back at zero.

I guess what I’m getting at is that our government is really good at vetting when it suits them and money is involved.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:04 pm
NJRob (7a7e3e) — 11/7/2016 @ 5:05 pm

It is a binary choice. Just as Senator Cruz understands one of two people will become President.

Not necessarily.

CBS ran a story about McMullin running in Utah.Theyd din’t explain it very well what his hope was, and they didn’t mention any polls, but they did mention someone accusing McMullin of not being hetersoxual because he wasn’t married and didn’t have a girlfriend. He’s a Mormom! If he’s hiding someone it’s a girlfriend whom for some reason he cannot marry. It said Trump (or his campaign) had condemned this approach.

I saw a poll from the Deseret News. Likely Utah voters, 500 of them, November 1-3. (last week Tuesday through Thursday)

Donald Trump: 33%
Evan McMullin: 28%
Hillary Clinton: 24%
Gary Johnson: 5%
Other or Refused to say: 5%
Undecided: 5%

Margin of error (95% chance the sampling error is less than that – that is, if you repeated the poll hundreds of times and averaged the resuts, the probability is 95% that this result would differ from that average by less than 4.38%
Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:04 pm
Narciso, did you mean my response to NJRob?
It’s something that bugs me, having seen it from several people here and other places. They just blindly assume there is no use to trying to get Hispanics and others interested in limited government.

Which is especially silly here, at a blog where one of the most useful and intelligent commenters is a conservative Hispanic (meaning you, and since it’s true you have no reason to blush).
kishnevi (3ebfe9) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:06 pm
Kishnevi, where is this immigrant going to get that lesson in the superiority of limited government? The MSM? Public schools? Universities? Prime time TV? Sporting events? Establishment Republicans?

You’re funny.
LBascom (fb10a4) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:06 pm
If Killary wins does that mean we’ll have four more years of stupid white boys wearing dreadlocks? And if Trump wins will Subaru finally quit putting those stupid “coexist” stickers on the bumpers of their Outbacks? I assume they come standard since they all have them.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:07 pm
The most statist thing of all is Daylight Savings Time. The government making you change your clocks twice a year. Why? Because it can. It’s right up there with making Swedish the official language of the United States and making people wear their underwear on the outside.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:09 pm
true, but I’ve always been an outlier, I’m not going to echo allen ginsburg, but there was a certain madness that set in my generation, and the generation xers are even worse, if one reads the herald, watches univision, mira, mega, et al, you will get one message from the wurlitzer, vote red queen,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:10 pm
you need to properly credit that to bananas, nk,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:12 pm
Kishnevi

All these people coming to America on student visas are going to our psycho liberal colleges so how do you expect them to learn about limited government?
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:13 pm
Lezbaru deliberately targeted lesbians as its market, Hoagie. So, yes, I imagine the coexist stickers, if not standard, are a common accessory.
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:14 pm
NBC is doing a special that basically consists of (with some narration by Tom Brokaw) replaying bits of their Saturday Night Live parodies from this election.

There was one where in a republican debate a moderator announced that if poll numbers drop during the debate below 3% the candidate will be escorteed off te stage and then Chris Christie got a gong.
Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:16 pm
Bananas!
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:16 pm
early woody allen, take the money, sleeper, and bananas are classics, then around 1980, his neurotic tics became stale,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:24 pm
He’s the Subaru of movie directors. (See my Comment 170)
nk (dbc370) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:27 pm
#162 Sammy,

When we say it’s a binary choice, we’re actually saying it’s going to be a binary outcome — either Trump or illary will become the next President.
If people want to play a parlour game and say, “Wellll, you can’t make me vote, or I can write in Mickey Mouse or Peyton Manning!” then that’s fine, but that won’t change the fact that the outcome is still going to be either Trump or illary.
And what we’re saying is that we might as well attempt to influence the outcome.
I’d much rather have Rudy Giuliani as AG than Loretta Lynch or Tom Perez.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:28 pm
look what we have here, one might call it the full segretti, if we had a news media,

https://twitter.com/scott_foval
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:30 pm
.
Kishnevi, where is this immigrant going to get that lesson in the superiority of limited government?

You’re a conservative. You believe in individuals and individualism. So why not start doing it yourself.
kishnevi (3ebfe9) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:32 pm
DCSCA

God Bless You!

Or for CS and narciso’s benefit, you are SO good looking!
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:33 pm
Yet your attitude is bigoted. I assume that you honestly don’t think it is, so I refuse to call you a bigot: but that attitude is bigoted. You are assuming that all those foreigners can not be persuaded/educated into understanding that limited government/free market is good for them and good in general. Which means you are biased against them…or that you don’t actually believe in limited government. Because if limited government is good, they could be educated and persuaded to support it. Yet you apparently don’t want to even try.

kishnevi (3ebfe9) — 11/7/2016 @ 6:40 pm

Don’t care if I’m called a bigot. I have no interest in sacrificing the future of my children for the benefit of some mythical individual from a foreign land.

I don’t need to imagine trying to convince some alien of the benefit of capitalism and liberty when I can look at the reality that citizens of other nations support leftist policies and not American conservative beliefs. That is reality. No hypothetical needed.
NJRob (7a7e3e) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:33 pm
Two things,

my main priority is the rule of law, not “conservatism”,
if there are no rules then rule will be by power, not principle.
The Dems in this era are the party of lawlessness, I cannot see letting them maintain the opportunity to illegally consolidate power.
I suppose it could be argued that the rule of law is a conservative principle, but it is not in the same way that limited government and fiscal policy is.

I have no confidence in Trump, I have no reason/evidence/history to have confidence in Trump.
I have confidence that Clinton or any Dem will continue to rule as if they are above the law.

Some people are concerned that Trump being the “standard bearer” for the GOP will make it that much harder for conservative principles to thrive in the GOP.
I am concerned that lawlessness will eclipse conservatism and the GOP and there will be no opposition party left, just scattered voices bereft of organization and resources.

As far as immigration goes, I believe the Bible is God’s revelation to humans, and that it is relevant to every people everywhere at every time. A Christian (not in label only, but actual faith evidenced in action) from Syria or Mexico or South Korea probably has more in common with me than a vocal secularist from Canada,
but yes, the logistics of vetting people is a major hindrance
And that is why I do say “demographics” is not the bottom line. If the under 30 demographic is more pro-Clinton than the 65+, the problem is not the “demographics”, it is that the older generation has failed to pass on their heritage, not by a rote indoctrination, but by living engagement with ideas.

To the degree people now immigrate here because of a free lunch and the freedom to bite the hand that feeds them as well, yes, that is terrible problem, but the answer is not to stop immigration per se, but to allow immigration for those who want to work to sustain the values that made the good in the US what it is.

The problem, in terms of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, is that too many people have been content with being “nice”,
and too few have been concerned with being good.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:36 pm
that is a fundamental reality, md, how did we come to misunderstand his message so, I guess the first category error where the collapse of civil authority, forced the church into filling the gap, and that misundertands Roman 7, completely,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:40 pm
Jesus’ followers have not been as good at resisting the temptation to forgo the cross and claim power in the here and now.

The desire for power “to do good” is a great corrupting force.

interesting link, narciso,
is he having a get back at them tirade for being thrown under the bus??
is anyone listening?
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:44 pm
we had a pastor from south africa as the guest preacher, and he was focusing on romans 11-12, just one passage which seems to have fallen by the wayside,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:45 pm
it would seem so,

It may have been the alliance with constantine, that led to this consequence, in the west,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:46 pm
in this country, I think the notion to consider john 14, too exclusive, eventually led to a hollow church,
one can also consider 1 Corinthians 10,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:49 pm
@163 kishnevi

I wouldn’t say any particular ethnic group couldn’t learn about and adopt a belief in the benefits of limited government. I would say that our Founders were onto something with the concept of natural born citizenship and abandoning other allegiances, if you will.

There’s this whole thing about how feral children, past a certain point, simply are unable to learn a language. It’s not a matter of intelligence or determination. They can’t do it.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:55 pm
My lesbian cousin had one of those Subaru Brats with the suicidal seats in the back ala a “Screaming Mimi”. No astroturf, though.

Should have been a tell but I had a sheltered upbringing.
Pinandpuller (dd360c) — 11/7/2016 @ 8:00 pm
Well, there was the warning i think principally in Deuteronomy,
don’t forget God who gave you the blessings
as you are enjoying them
and become proud and arrogant

yes, indeed, our country was never perfect and many founders were holders of a form of religion,
but denied the power,
but the foundation was there to aspire to,
not to undermine and transform
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/7/2016 @ 8:04 pm
and therein was the real point of driving the bible out of the public discourse, it lead to a courser vocabulary and a materialist and arrogant mindset,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 8:08 pm
fwiw,

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/11/07/purple-state-memo-republicans-hold-lead-in-early-voting-entering-election-day/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/7/2016 @ 8:12 pm
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 11/7/2016 @ 7:28 pm

but that won’t change the fact that the outcome is still going to be either Trump or illary.

Only a 98% to 99% chance or so.

In some states, the outcome is practically pre-ordained.

In almost all states the outcome is either going to be Trump or Hillary – in Utah, Trump or McMullin.
Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9) — 11/7/2016 @ 8:16 pm
Most of the voters for either Trump or Hillary are not aware of all or most of the defects of he one they are voting for.
Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9) — 11/7/2016 @ 9:11 pm
JR in Grand Rapids, Michigan tonight: “We don’t need no Lady Gaga.”

“We don’t need no badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges.” – ‘Treasure of the Sierra Madre’ – 1948
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/7/2016 @ 9:48 pm
There are no good reasons to vote for Trump. There are no good reasons to vote for Clinton.

Either argument fails totally in terms of logic. We are faced with two candidates of THE SAME CLOTH that are digging their way to China with their lies. Neither is worthy of the Presidency. Just because so many people are programmed to believe that they HAVE to vote for one or the other, does not mean that I have to.

I refuse to endorse either one of them. And so should you.
Dennis Carlson (a91693) — 11/8/2016 @ 12:57 am
not voting for a lying diseased criminal PIG like hillary is job #1 today for sure Mr. Carlson

job# 2 is voting for Mr. Trump! (he’s a plum lolly and a christmas pudding too)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/8/2016 @ 3:36 am
Um. But you are not voting.
Simon Jester (c63397) — 11/8/2016 @ 5:04 am
that’s unfortunate but full speed ahead i say

let’s do this
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/8/2016 @ 5:07 am
hearing from my nyc friends there’s some crazy-ass security complexicating people’s commuting
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/8/2016 @ 5:12 am
Happy, you should have worked in a WKRP in Cincinnati reference in your response. Damn, 70s CBS television was a guide to life.
urbanleftbehind (ef925b) — 11/8/2016 @ 5:29 am
i’m bereft of these references 🙁
happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/8/2016 @ 5:31 am

11/7/2016

“In Defense Of Trump Voters” — Your Must-Read For Today

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