Patterico's Pontifications

5/19/2016

Robert Kagan: “This is how fascism comes to America”

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:41 am



Robert Kagan in the Washington Post:

Republican politicians marvel at how [Donald Trump] has “tapped into” a hitherto unknown swath of the voting public. But what he has tapped into is what the founders most feared when they established the democratic republic: the popular passions unleashed, the “mobocracy.” Conservatives have been warning for decades about government suffocating liberty. But here is the other threat to liberty that Alexis de Tocqueville and the ancient philosophers warned about: that the people in a democracy, excited, angry and unconstrained, might run roughshod over even the institutions created to preserve their freedoms. As Alexander Hamilton watched the French Revolution unfold, he feared in America what he saw play out in France — that the unleashing of popular passions would lead not to greater democracy but to the arrival of a tyrant, riding to power on the shoulders of the people.

This phenomenon has arisen in other democratic and quasi-democratic countries over the past century, and it has generally been called “fascism.” Fascist movements, too, had no coherent ideology, no clear set of prescriptions for what ailed society. “National socialism” was a bundle of contradictions, united chiefly by what, and who, it opposed; fascism in Italy was anti-liberal, anti-democratic, anti-Marxist, anti-capitalist and anti-clerical. Successful fascism was not about policies but about the strongman, the leader (Il Duce, Der Fuhrer), in whom could be entrusted the fate of the nation. Whatever the problem, he could fix it. Whatever the threat, internal or external, he could vanquish it, and it was unnecessary for him to explain how. Today, there is Putinism, which also has nothing to do with belief or policy but is about the tough man who singlehandedly defends his people against all threats, foreign and domestic.

To understand how such movements take over a democracy, one only has to watch the Republican Party today. These movements play on all the fears, vanities, ambitions and insecurities that make up the human psyche. In democracies, at least for politicians, the only thing that matters is what the voters say they want — vox populi vox dei. A mass political movement is thus a powerful and, to those who would oppose it, frightening weapon. When controlled and directed by a single leader, it can be aimed at whomever the leader chooses. If someone criticizes or opposes the leader, it doesn’t matter how popular or admired that person has been. He might be a famous war hero, but if the leader derides and ridicules his heroism, the followers laugh and jeer. He might be the highest-ranking elected guardian of the party’s most cherished principles. But if he hesitates to support the leader, he faces political death.

This is obviously stupid because it could never happen here. Unlike Germany and Italy, we here in the United States are different. We would never fall in line behind a leader who cares about only himself, blames our problems on foreigners, and sets up a cult of personality with a healthy dose of retribution for anyone who refuses to toe the line.

In unrelated news, Rasmussen says Trump 42%, Clinton 37%.

241 Responses to “Robert Kagan: “This is how fascism comes to America””

  1. When the result of strongmen getting into power is millions dead, the smart play is to ignore the warning signs and mock anyone who notes them.

    Please proceed with the smart play. Comments are open.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  2. Ya really gonna go with the trump as Hitler meme? Because that improves the political landscape how?

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  3. oh please poor lil wapo boy’s been ignoring the rapey thrusts of food stamp fascism for eight years

    Mr. Trump is a lot of things but a fascist like Barack Obama he is not

    happyfeet (831175)

  4. In unrelated news, Rasmussen says Trump 42%, Clinton 37%.

    If it makes you feel any better, Hillary’s poll numbers will skyrocket once Sanders officially drops out of the race.
    The BernieBros will support her, just like the PUMAs supported Obama.

    CayleyGraph (353727)

  5. Patterico, you had to know that some people would respond as they have and will.

    Simon Jester (4ed13b)

  6. The other thing—and I am a firm believer in this—is that Trump suffers every single time he debates. And by “debate,” I do not mean his usual stream of consciousness blather (seriously, count the number of times he repeats a particular word in each of his set pieces).

    Maybe HRC will, too.

    But if everyone sticks with slogans….

    Simon Jester (4ed13b)

  7. Hoagie,

    I did not say Trump is Hitler. But there are similarities. The strongman attitude, cult of personality, blaming problems on The Other, retribution for enemies…we have seen this before. We have not seen this level of disregard for policy or acceptance of big lies, although Obama was a nice little start down that path. Trump is a different order of magnitude. Imagine if Obama called people pretending to be someone else and praised himself, and lied about it. And hung up when people asked him about it. This is BizarroLand. That so many will sanction such obvious lies worries me.

    Patterico (5e9fda)

  8. Simon Jester, how would you expect patriotic Americans to respond to Robert Kagan and/or Patterico likening Trump supporters to followers of Adolph Hitler, the most hated man in history? How would you respond? Kagan hates Trump so he’s Hitler and anyone who supports him is a NAZI? Does that seem like rational political discourse to you because it sounds ridiculous and over the top to me. Especially when we have actual communists and anti-Constitutionalist communist supporters in the White House and running on the democrat ticket.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  9. We’re I convinced Trump is Hitler, I would be advocating a vote for Hillary and would cast my own ballot for her. I am not doing that.

    Patterico (5e9fda)

  10. More concerned about Communism than Fascism.

    Again, people do not have an earthly clue how much worse Collectivism is than Fascism.

    For the simple reason than Collectivism encompasses all the worst of Fascism plus all the worst of COmmunism.

    China 2016 is fascistic but much better than 1960 Communist China.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  11. bezos and zuckertrash think they can use facebook and wapo to swing the election for pee-stank

    I’m hoping they can’t

    happyfeet (831175)

  12. The Trump-haters have been shouting for months that Hillary’s just gonna kill him in the general, because polls. Now that’s fallen by the wayside just like every other anti-Trump meme, they’re reduced to Hitler comparisons.

    Boris (1d8f8b)

  13. I understand where you’re coming from Patterico, but going down the he’s like Hitler highway does nothing to advance our cause. In fact I believe it hurts it because it makes us look crazy. No reasonable person thinks Trump is Hitler.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  14. And with respect to Kagan, where was he as the Federal Govt became more fascistic?????????????

    Now all of a sudden you get an itch in your crotch about Trumpster and you are worried?

    Please.

    99% of the people complaining about Trump along this vector can be said “It is not where they stand on the issue but where they are sitting that is driving the concern.”

    99% writing about Trump and fascism simply don’t like Trump but have been engulfed with happiness as a Fascistic Central Govt shoves “civil rights” down our throats.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  15. #11 Happy, for my edification …

    Is pee-stank a reference to her getting old and not being able to hold it therefore requiring Depends pads …. and we all know how the Nursing Home smells of pee with all those pads and diapers. Never quite 100% reliable.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  16. yes yes but the nasty old woman’s incontinent with more than just her stinky pee Mr. Spirit

    the pee-stank she leaves everywhere

    it’s a metaphor for her sleaze and corruption

    happyfeet (831175)

  17. My main complaint with the article is how he doesn’t raise the same issues with Obama.

    Obama was the anointed strong man for one segment of the population, the loyal to the US Constitution opposition did a poor job overall in holding a standard,
    now you have the rise of those who were made out to be the bad guys wanting theirs.

    Obama has been the most polarizing president of my lifetime certainly, and the other side wants its day.
    If the Dems win they will double down on the leftist fundamental transformation,
    If Trump wins it will be ugly and who knows what will happen.

    MD in Philly (d85301)

  18. Greetings:

    So, I’m hallucinating all those Progressive Brownshirts running around the country these days ???

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  19. #17 I still believe the only solution is an ugly one. The Left does not stop, it never stops, no issue it settled, no law is final, no belief is sacred. The Left must be crushed by all legal means necessary — I say start by taking away their money sources in Govt.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  20. Dude, this obsession is bordering on clinical. There’s a reason you scored so low in that bubble test a while back, and it’s not just the obvious bias of that test. Join a bowling league, learn to shoot pool, do things normal people do. They won’t give you cooties, I promise.

    WTP (fd3093)

  21. 4. until Trump puts together some no-strings attached student loan forgiveness plans.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  22. I have equated Obama and those falling in line with him with his friend Bill Ayers who doesn’t care about how many millions need to die in the revolution,
    It will be a huge and really wonderful revolution,
    So my concerns about Trump are not in new territory.

    I just hate it that we have degenerated into “my liar that can’t be trusted is better than your liar who can’t be trusted”,
    even if there is some pathetic merit to such an argument.

    MD in Philly (d85301)

  23. To the Left every (R) is a potential Hitler.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  24. If one were looking for warning signs, what warning signs would one look for?

    Patterico (5e9fda)

  25. Yes, the left never stops,
    evil never stops,
    and too much of the time we settle for appeasement until the situation is existential.

    MD in Philly (d85301)

  26. @Patterico:The strongman attitude, cult of personality, blaming problems on The Other, retribution for enemies…we have seen this before.

    Yes we have. In Obama and Hillary Clinton, who have legions of followers already in government who carry out even their hinted-at wishes without question, aided and abetted by a syncophantic press, many of whom already work for them or hope to.

    Trump is hated by the bureaucracy, they will drag their feet on even obviously worthwhile initiatives, leaking all the while, with the media ready to amplify every complaint and irregularity into a new Abu Ghraib or Watergate.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  27. And it is easier to want my tyrant to beat up your tyrant
    than to do the hard work of occupying our own little areas of turf.

    MD in Philly (d85301)

  28. Hey, look who’s on the Google doodle today!

    “Yuri Kochiyama was a Japanese American human rights activist. She is notable as one of the few prominent non-black Black separatists. Influenced by Marxism, Maoism, and the thoughts of Malcolm X, she was an advocate for many revolutionary movements.”

    But Trump is what we really need to worry about.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  29. And it is easier to want my tyrant to beat up your tyrant
    than to do the hard work of occupying our own little areas of turf.

    And it’s easier to argue on the internet than do the hard work of going out into the community and helping the tired, huddled masses (ok, exaggeration but still) how to fish and thus expanding the turf.

    WTP (fd3093)

  30. “If one were looking for warning signs, what warning signs would one look for?”

    Malnutrition rather than obesity being the predominant health concern among the heavily subsidized.

    Rick Ballard (97c612)

  31. WTP, and yet here you are.

    SPQR (23aa8e)

  32. 24.If one were looking for warning signs, what warning signs would one look for?

    You believe potential tyrants leave warning signs? Like bad poker players have a “tell”? There are no warning signs. But when we have two people on the democrat ticket, one a stone cold liar and grifter who miraculously made 140 million on a $186,000 a year salary and another who honeymooned in the Soviet Union and is only a “socialist” cause he couldn’t get elected dog catcher (in the old days, not today) if he admitted he’s a communist why worry over a loutish businessman who’s not PC? In reality he’s the least of our worries. We need to concentrate on getting the government back to Constitutional principles which means making sure neither Hillary nor Sanders gets to pick the next three Supreme Court judges. Yes, it’s that important.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  33. If one were looking for warning signs, what warning signs would one look for?

    the way failmerica’s sleazy corrupt FBI is sweeping pee-stank’s red-handed criminality under the rug seems like it’s kind of a tell

    happyfeet (831175)

  34. I hope Bernie does go full third party – another SNL skit idea would be a debate where Trump – Clinton – Sanders age rapidly between isolated shots to the point Sanders is a crypt-keeper, Hillary looks like a fat incontinent version of the Game of Thrones redhead and Trump loses the function of a limb or part of face with each take to the point of not being able to hold it in.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  35. Has Kagan been in a coma for the last seven years? We began this period with our own little Mussolini reading from a teleprompter in front of faux Doric columns claiming he would stop the ocean’s rise and other mystic marvels. No one laughed in derision. He then toured the world denouncing the sacrifices made by previous generations of Americans to ensure the world’s prosperity and peace. Now the same clown has invited the boys into the girls showers, and we are supposed to regard this as an improvement in our personal liberty. And in between these earth shaking innovations in political theory, this feckless man child destroyed the military (with the acquiescence of virtually the entire command staff;) pitted the black community against the police by supporting baseless claims made by criminals; allowed ten million illegal immigrants to enter the country and rewarded them with community services sponsored by the government and administered by church organizations that are under great pressure to renounce their faith in order to continue to receive these funds; and finally managed to put a couple of bakers out of business after redefining “marriage”. And, of course, the man child’s political commentary against his opponents was sufficiently vile and personal that the entire leadership of the Republican party abandoned all sworn duties and hid in a bunker for four years.

    So now the rest of the country has their own clown. And as vile and intemperate as this man is, he is cut from the same clothe. He shares the current incumbent’s ignorance of history and western culture. But his targets are all those little snowflakes who support the feckless one, and that is what finally got Kagan’s attention. Welcome, comrade, to the new normalcy.

    BobStewartatHome (404986)

  36. Did anyone else notice that Robert Kagan worked with Hillary Clinton while she was at State, and that he is working there now under John Kerry? His editorial did not see fit to mention that he served her in this capacity and serves John Kerry now.

    Did anyone else notice that there was NOT ONE leak from the State Department about Hillary Clinton’s private server? With the number of people there who had to be aware of it, not ONE leak. Institute for Justice found out through discovery, when they found emails that referenced the server.

    That is going to be the Clinton presidency. Illegal activity known to dozens or scores of people yet not one leak. But we’re supposed to believe Trump is the dawn of fascism; Hillary Clinton is the goddamned 10 am of fascism.

    Probably no one cares what I did last week, but I cast a primary vote for one Ted Cruz, hoping that in some small way it will eventually matter. I am not a supporter of Trump, but I hate to see people losing their sense of perspective and eagerly swallowing the fascism swill that gets trotted out by the media every time a Republican might get elected to something.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  37. Certainly true, WTR,
    and I haven’t been nearly effective as I would like to have been,
    surrounded by brown and black and Spanish speakers and public school teachers who tell students to take off their Romney shirts because it is a “Democratic school”.

    So yes, sometimes it is easier to write something here than go bang my head again against some wall,
    besides, I did use the pronouns my and our.

    MD in Philly (d85301)

  38. What Bob and Gabriel said.

    MD in Philly (d85301)

  39. The warning sign of fascism is the petite bourgeoisie, the shopkeepers and professions, fearful and insecure, looking for a strong-man who promises to protect them from the people and things they fear; and the losers and ne’er-do-wells looking for a uniform which will give them “Respect, power, …”
    “Banana!”
    “… banana!”

    nk (dbc370)

  40. The answer is for the States to stand up to Washington, no matter who is President. For example:

    exas Gov. Greg Abbott explained his decision to maintain economic sanctions against Iran despite the Obama Administration’s request to lift them.

    Abbott says he will seek new legislation to strengthen existing sanctions against the world’s leading state sponsor of terrorism.

    He said On the Record tonight that maintaining the sanctions is the right thing to do stand with Israel.

    “Now that the sanctions have been lifted, what the United States is opening the investment door back up. And we’re saying ‘No, we’re not going to open the investment door back up, in fact we’re going to close it even tighter and put a lock on it.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  41. Even a President can be stopped. We learned that in the Medellin case.

    DRJ (15874d)

  42. First of all, Donald Trump isn’t that tough.

    Hamilton {{{ an early advocate of the superdelegate system,

    and Andrew Jackson {{{ an actual strong man who rose to power on populist passion,

    have been or are in the process of being removed marginalized as an embarrassment from the pantheon of legal tender.

    Both early advocates of the Democrat party.

    Coincidence?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  43. yes there is a lesson here,

    http://spectator.org/this-is-a-war-were-in-damn-it/

    narciso (732bc0)

  44. R.I.P. Morley Safer

    Icy (ea69c3)

  45. If there are no warning signs, then there is no point studying history. But that is ludicrous because there are warning signs and history does provide us with clues to our future.

    I don’t think Trump is Hitler any more than Obama is, but both of their campaigns and (I fear) their Presidencies resemble Fascism because of their willingness to subvert or ignore the Rule of Law, and their supporters’ dedication to the personality cult that surrounds their leaders.

    DRJ (15874d)

  46. Trump is exactly like Jackson, papertiger. They are both headstrong and don’t care about the Constitution or the Rule of Law when they think they are right.

    DRJ (15874d)

  47. @DRJ:there are warning signs and history does provide us with clues to our future.

    Hitler and his party campaigned on replacing democracy with dictatorship and it was quite popular. He got about the same share of the vote Bill Clinton did, before he stopped bothering with elections, which he had promised his constituents he would abolish.

    There’s a sort of mythology that the 20th century dictators snuck up on people somehow, but that is not true. They openly made it known what they intended and the people who voted for it wanted that.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  48. I will grant that Obama has been a disaster, and that Hillary will be no better. Trump is still worse. None of them have any respect for the law, or the system of checks and balances established by the framers. None of them feel the slightest twinge of unease at the prospect of abusing the power of the office of the president to further their aims or punish their enemies. But even Obama and Hillary pay lip service to the law. They at least seem to understand they are subverting our founding principles, and accordingly are somewhat restrained by the fear that people will see what they’re doing.

    Trump does all this out in the open, without a hint of shame or recognition. This is a man who has expressed admiration for Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the brutal PRC suppression of the Tienanmen Square protest. He wants to begin direct talks w/ North Korea. How does this NOT set off flashing warning lights?

    Is Trump a new Hitler? No, but are you sure he isn’t a new Hugo Chavez? A new Fidel Castro? A new Vladimir Putin?

    cnh (c9c12f)

  49. those of you who live anywhere from the panhandle to oklahoma, he was like our version of sharon,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/egyptair-flight-from-paris-to-cairo-disappears-from-radar/

    narciso (732bc0)

  50. Morley Safer was a Canadian/American reporter and correspondent for CBS News.

    It’s like CBS has always been an advocate for low cost import labor.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  51. You don’t need a Hitler or a Mussolini to have fascism. A Franco, a Peron, a Pinochet, a Putin, will do.

    Neither do you need “Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” immediately. That is the Thousand-Year Goal like Utopia in Communism.

    You do need a Leader with all authority flowing downward, and not only dissent but simple discussion suppressed by the machinery of the state.

    nk (dbc370)

  52. @nk:You do need a Leader with all authority flowing downward, and not only dissent but simple discussion suppressed by the machinery of the state.

    Her initials are HRC. DJT has no friends in the machinery of the state.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  53. He might be a famous war hero, but if the leader derides and ridicules his heroism, the followers laugh and jeer.

    ugh

    to call meghan’s sleazy coward daddy a famous war hero is scraping the mucky nasty bottom of the war hero barrel i think

    happyfeet (831175)

  54. Her initials are HRC. DJT has no friends in the machinery of the state.

    They’ll cozy up to him fast enough. They will only be doing their jobs and following procedure. Like the cops who threw a flash-bang grenade in a baby’s crib with the baby in it.

    nk (dbc370)

  55. Isn’t this old news given the tyranny of the Obama Years?

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  56. Trump is exactly like Jackson, papertiger. They are both headstrong and don’t care about the Constitution or the Rule of Law when they think they are right.

    ===================================

    See previous comment re: Obama Years…

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  57. does it surprise anyone to learn Robert Kagan is grade A to the manor born harvardtrash

    happyfeet (831175)

  58. @nk:They’ll cozy up to him fast enough.

    You are depressingly and probably right–those we shall ever have with us–but the media won’t cover up for him like they do for Hillary and they will try to make every instance a scandal no matter how minor.

    Hillary’s email server is the perfect example. Compare with Rubio’s luxury speedboat, Mitt Romney’s dog carrier, and Trump’s treatment of women in private life.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  59. Man, I’ve heard of “living for your work”, but Safer has taken it way too far and too much to heart!

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  60. @Happyfeet:Robert Kagan is grade A to the manor born harvardtrash

    He worked for Hillary at State and is working for Kerry there now, and publishing in what will be Hillary’s state newspaper. He is not a disinterested observer. I’m just amazed that Patterico takes what he says at face value.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  61. WTP, and yet here you are

    Yeah, not all f’n day and twice on Sundays. But, wth. What do you do with your spare time besides live here?

    WTP (fd3093)

  62. Lay down with ticks like Kagan, you’ll get fleas.

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  63. Kagen’s piece could have been about Obama with only a little editing:

    “But if Obama[FB] wins the election, his legions will comprise a majority of the nation. Imagine the power Obama[FB] would wield then. In addition to all that comes from being the leader of a mass following, he would also have the immense powers of the American presidency at his command: the Justice Department, the FBI, the intelligence services, the military. Who would dare to oppose him then?”

    Why didn’t he tell us then, the slippery eel?

    Fred Beloit (12281a)

  64. Certainly true, WTR,
    and I haven’t been nearly effective as I would like to have been,

    Wasn’t to be personal to yourself MD, as you being (I presume) an MD, you’re likely full time in the business either way. But to your point, conservatives need to spend more time broadening their base before trying to grab power. The base is simply not wide enough. If some people would get out a little bit more, they might understand this.

    WTP (fd3093)

  65. He worked for Hillary at State and is working for Kerry there now, and publishing in what will be Hillary’s state newspaper.

    Kagan is married to the American “diplomat” Victoria Nuland, who serves as Assistant Secretary of European and Eurasian Affairs in the Barack Obama administration.

    happyfeet (831175)

  66. We’re I convinced Trump is Hitler, I would be advocating a vote for Hillary and would cast my own ballot for her. I am not doing that.
    Patterico (5e9fda) — 5/19/2016 @ 7:58 am

    Of course you’re not, and I appreciate your ability to reject one evil without embracing another.

    But it seems Kagan lacks such ability: he has endorsed Hillary. That makes me unable to respect his judgment. I’m unwilling any longer to filter the words of such a fool in search of support for my own decisions.

    Kagan’s support of Hillary makes his judgments on Trump of null value.

    Levans (14d7a8)

  67. This is obviously stupid because it could never happen here. Unlike Germany and Italy, we here in the United States are different. We would never fall in line behind a leader who cares about only himself, blames our problems on foreigners, and sets up a cult of personality with a healthy dose of retribution for anyone who refuses to toe the line. substitute republicans and white men for foreigners and we’ve already sufferred through 7 plus years of this.

    blackjack (5518a5)

  68. it’s a shame, his analysis of the contras, blood brothers, was one of the best analysis bar none, as compared to roy gutman or chris dickey’s sandinista propaganda,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/victoria-nuland-state-department_n_3332297.html

    but we know where his parsnips are buttered,

    narciso (732bc0)

  69. sorry it was called twilight struggle, the other was stephen kinzer’s contribution,

    narciso (732bc0)

  70. The language of presidential candidates is that of dictators. (When I am president, the top tax rate will be 10%. I will provide free college tuition and universal health care.) They all talk like they will have the universal power to enact their agendas. Nobody talks about the legislative process they will have to go through to enact their agenda.

    When Trump talks about suspending Muslim immigration to the US, or making great trade deals, it is the same use of presidential language.

    Stopping/reducing illegal immigration is different. Those laws are on the books, so he is just talking about enforcing existing laws. Building a wall will require funding, so he either has to go through congress for that, or get Mexico to pay for it.

    We are currently well on the way to concentrating power in the presidency. But the problem isn’t so much the president taking power, but other institutions abdicating their own designated powers. I don’t see congress (the political elite of both parties) continuing this trend and deferring to President Trump. Likewise, the press will perform the role of adversarial press to a President Trump much more than to a 2nd President Clinton.

    Mike S (89ec89)

  71. Kagan is married to the American “diplomat” Victoria Nuland, who serves as Assistant Secretary of European and Eurasian Affairs in the Barack Obama administration.

    Onmigosh, it’s that guy? He’s pure Dem operative. He’s about as believable as Hillary herself. Maybe as much as Bill. A James Carville with hair.

    nk (dbc370)

  72. Trump is exactly like Jackson, papertiger. They are both headstrong and don’t care about the Constitution or the Rule of Law when they think they are right.
    DRJ (15874d) — 5/19/2016 @ 9:37 am

    — PREACH!

    Icy (ea69c3)

  73. Did WaPo disclose his connection to Hilkary and Nuland or do they just give leftist carte Blanche access to their column inches.

    JD (961803)

  74. Ya really gonna go with the trump as Hitler meme? Because that improves the political landscape how?
    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193) — 5/19/2016 @ 7:45 am

    Thanks for popping out of your comfortable place in the sand to add your voice to the “It can’t happen here!” chorus.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6)

  75. The “tells” of Fascism are the actions of the fascist supporters … it is rarely possible to differentiate between Fascist politicians and Rule of Law politicians by parsing their words …

    It *is* possible to differentiate by watching their supporters in their actions …

    When a politician says that opposing politicians are wrong, and the politician’s supporters don’t prevent the opposing politicians from being heard, that is most likely a Rule of Law politician …

    When a politician says that opposing politicians are wrong, and the politician’s supporters prevent the opposing politicians from being heard (whether by physically chasing them off the stage by force, or even just simply drown out the opposing politicians speaking), that is most likely a Fascist politician … the classic Fascist manifestation is the prevention of the opposition from being able to be heard …

    If you see Trump supporters disrupting a Sanders or Clinton Rally, preventing Sanders or Clinton from being heard, then you are seeing Fascism in action …

    When you see Democrat/Progressive supporters physically disrupting a Trump Rally (currently commonplace happenings) or even physically disrupting a Sanders of Clinton Rally (see BlackLivesMatter), you are seeing Fascism in action …

    Calling Trump a Fascist is projection most of the time … I don’t see former-Secretary Clinton as a Fascist – rather, I see her as someone quite content to see fascist tactics used against her opponents (whether Sanders or Trump) … Sanders isn’t so much Fascist as an eager practitioner of Soviet totalitarianism when he can find the power to be such (which, fortunately, is not often) …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  76. it’s like that incomplete identification of general petraeus, grubbing for oil pelf for kkr,

    narciso (732bc0)

  77. but the mayor of paris, said trump was an idiot, she should look in the mirror,

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3598319/French-intelligence-warned-country-clearly-targeted-ISIS-Paris-flight-Egypt.html

    narciso (732bc0)

  78. to riff reflecting life imitating life, in civil war, general ross has a highlight of every mishap the avengers have wrought in the course of their endeavours, with hillary you can look at the ukraine, any spot in north africa, the niger delta, the sea of japan, the streets of juarez and tegulcigalpa, I’m sure I’ve left some accomplishments out,

    narciso (732bc0)

  79. yikes

    happyfeet (831175)

  80. when you ride with red queen, you ride with the epstein of foggy bottom,

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump-tax-returns-2016-213901

    narciso (732bc0)

  81. Just about every point this Kagan fellow makes can be leveled at Clinton and Sanders. I don’t like Trump, I think he’s a self-important, over-hyped blowhard but he’s no where near a Hitler like entity which you are clearly trying to say by publishing this piece. If he picks a strong VP along with a strong, conservative cabinet he could surprise a lot of people and have a good, productive stint as President. The question you have to ask yourself is whether you will vote for him if he garners the Republican nomination. If you don’t that is your choice but you will have helped elect Clinton.

    scr_north (0b3ccb)

  82. a reminder, of course there are fraudsters like steve rattner also in the queue of ‘just asking questions’

    http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/its-a-coverup-us-ambassador-to-belgium-solicited-prostitutes-including-minors/

    narciso (732bc0)

  83. DRJ, pointing to Jackson as a comparison to Trump is overwrought.

    Better comparison would be Jackson and Lincoln.

    I mean Lincoln invalidated Supreme Court rulings, suspended habeas corpus, imposed martial law, ordered summary executions, confiscated private property, violate treaties, but we like him.

    He’s a fluffy bunny we like to goo and gah over, his crimes forgotten, or worse, deemed necessary for the survival of the republic.

    Why is Lincoln held up high despite his crimes, whereas Jackson is reviled for doing the same?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  84. well jackson through his protege taney, who he put on the court, and polk who extended the territory down to california, made lincoln’s inevitable,

    narciso (732bc0)

  85. Personally, I am a big fan of Jackson’s killing off the original incarnation of the Federal Reserve Bank. Inspite of that action being deemed illegal by latter day naybobs.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  86. you may have missed the point of de tocqueville, shocker,

    http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/ch4_06.htm

    narciso (732bc0)

  87. I think they are down with the bank of the united states now,

    narciso (732bc0)

  88. Thanks for popping out of your comfortable place in the sand to add your voice to the “It can’t happen here!” chorus.

    For your information L.N. Smithee my head was never in “the sand”. And I’ve never been one to rely on what’s “comfortable”. But thank you for popping your own head out of your a$$ long enough for me to tell you this: My head was firmly educated in the jungle of Vietnam and I know a communist when I see one. The only way “it could happen here” is if idiots like you allow a leftist democrat to be elected because you’re too self-absorbed to swallow your poor little pride and do what is necessary to keep Hillary out of the White House. I have a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts so before you start slinging your sh!t at me you better think about what you say you little disrespectful punk.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  89. Also admired the way Jackson dealt with baby civil wars.

    I’ll send troops down, and hang you traitorous sons of breaches. – {is that verbatim?)

    Carolinians must have paused on that a couple minutes, “Look what he did to the Cherokee!”, before capitulating.

    The Empire was the good guys, despite populist dogma.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  90. No question Lincoln was a a tyrant also. Also a liar, having lied to South Carolina about the movement or troops and weapons prior to the Sumter incident.

    Folks love Lincoln cuz his tyranny was “just” while Jackson “killed poor injuns.” I can assure you millions upon millions of Northerners who went to die for a cause they gave two shats about did not feel Lincoln was anything but a jack booted thug.

    But my view is I loved all President’s who Made America Great. The navel gazing over their sins 150 years later makes me yearn for the guillotine and kangaroo courts. Trump should invade Canada and make it ours if he gets there.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  91. Ladies and gentlemen (and happyfeet) – our esteemed bloghost doesn’t need such rancor in the forum he graciously provides for us … there are very effective ways yo express disagreement without the excessively-repetitive four-letter words (some of which now only are worth 3 letters due to inflation) …

    If it is a word one is not willing to type without substituting non-letters for the customary letters, perhaps it could be phrased more creatively while equally passionately ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  92. Again, people here who call themselves Conservative have no clue what the Left is.

    The Left is evil, all of its efforts, fruit of the poison tree.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  93. Trump is not the same as Hitler, nor is his support a fascist movement. (Fascism explicitly rejects democracy and calls for complete national unification in an all-encompassing state; plus the uniformed party militia. Trumpism lacks these features.)

    Hitler was a genuine outsider, an impoverished wannabe artist whose only success was as a political agitator for a fringe party (until the Depression hit). Trump is a scion of wealth with a substantial business career and close associations with the power elite. Hitler was a devout racist and obsessed anti-semite; Trump is neither, though he doesn’t mind drawing support from such.

    But there are parallels. Trump has made himself an outsider, and is definitely not part of the politician class (has never held or run for office). As in Germany in 1930-1933 (though for different reasons), a substantial part of the people are bitterly disappointed with incumbent politicians as a class, and with the failure of the political process to respond to their grievances, both genuine and perceived.

    Trump has tapped into that disappointment; like Hitler, he postures as a “strong man” who will “fix things”. Like Hitler, he is a clever orator.

    But another big difference: unlike Hitler, Trump started with huge name recognition. Hitler was exclusively a politician; Trump has been a huge public presence in entertainment for many years. (Name recognition is a bigger factor than most people realize: an obscure Texas lawyer led in the first round of the state Supreme Court primary, apparently because his name is Scott Walker.)

    Trump is less a “fascist demagogue” than a “celebrity candidate”, which is another grave danger of a different sort. (See recent Philippine politics for examples.)

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)

  94. #100 Wow, reason. Kudos.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  95. most americans want america to work for all. you don’t if it interferes with your ayn randist free trade movement conseritism. ;but rich and ayn randists don’t have the votes because you have destroyed your social conservative voters economically!

    trump45% clinton41% (94d667)

  96. That’s all from me on this episode of drunk history.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  97. Is it Tocque’s point it can’t be done? By Trump. By anybody.

    Because if that’s not it ….

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  98. I guess I’ll wait for Trump to start rising up on his toes and pounding the podium, Rich Rostrum.

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  99. 102… Perry is the daffiest sumbi+ch ever…

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  100. You mean tow the line.

    Kagan is an ass.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  101. WRT blaming problems on The Other:
    If we have a problem, it might be somebody’s fault. Earthquakes are not. But if is somebody’s fault, it’s either us or somebody else. The latter would be The Other.
    So let’s look at unchecked immigration, the illegal kind. If it’s our fault, it’s because a sufficient number of people voted for Obama. If we’re annoyed about the Kate Steinle (aka “who?”) affair, it’s either fault of the immigrant who killed her or the fault of the government (ours) who couldn’t keep him out or couldn’t keep him in jail or couldn’t hire agents who kept control of their weapons.
    So is there an “other” here? Are the “other” the ones who voted for Obama and the Sanctuary Cities honchos? Is it my fault–must be since it’s mean to blame The Other–that this happened?
    Are The Other the elites who think America is a Bad Thing and must be fundamentally transformed?
    Either our problems are in the nature of an earthquake, or somebody’s doing. In the second case, is there a reason not to look for the doers?

    Richard Aubrey (472a6f)

  102. I am so proud to be on the opposite side of Beck and those parasitic Zuckerberg cuckservatives. I pity you losers.

    mg (31009b)

  103. Hey Rich, where do I go to see the heil Trump salute? I need to practice so I won’t disappoint your sorry Clinton loving arse.
    Is arse ok, Alistor?

    mg (31009b)

  104. The comments by the Trump defenders on this thread reek of the kind of immaturity and resentment that Kagan is talking about. I don’t care WHO says it. The argument could come from Paul Bengals or Lanny Davis for all I care. Nor does it matter if the author is not similarly perceptive about the authoritarian or fascistic tendencies of Obama.

    What matters is: Is Kagan correct about Trump and his pathetic, servile supporters? The nature is of the hostility exhibited by the Trump-tards in this very comment thread – never an actual argument, but plenty of bile for those perceived to be on the other side of a cultural divide – supports Kagan’s thesis.

    Fascism is more about the sub-animal mob than it is about the strongman who seeks to exploit them.

    Brian (77e70c)

  105. mg,

    While in Dana Point, you guys might enjoy Stacks Pancake House over on the PCH.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  106. the fact that Kagan is financially invested in a pee-stank presidency is a very very good argument Mr. Brian

    and it is a fact

    that the wapo propaganda slut did not disclose at least not in the excerpt

    this is very troubling

    happyfeet (831175)

  107. ask the vinklevoss twins about zuckerberg’s intellectual

    narciso (732bc0)

  108. Fascism is more about the sub-animal mob than it is about the strongman who seeks to exploit them.

    Wish you Conservatives who called Obola a “bueno” man and his Leftist sub-animal mobs felt the same way in 2008 and you seem to be now relating Trump.

    Problem is you were too cowardly to do so then but have tons of courage now … goes to show you how much PC has destroyed even Conservatives.

    And for that reason alone Trump is a good thing. Eight years of eliminating the though police from our lives. And if he happens to open the Camps and ship the parasites from coasts to North Dakota, more power to him.

    Frankly, I am tired of this Democracy we have. The Power of 50+1 to impose lunacy in exchange for a welfare check (or a cushy Gubmint Job) stinks to high hell.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  109. #112 Fascism is more about the sub-animal mob than it is about the strongman who seeks to exploit them

    + plus what I wrote above.

    Our Government is broken. Between 50+1 thinking and a Corrupt Legal Profession / Judiciary. Time for some brutal change.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  110. It’s well worth bearing in mind the how and why of Trump’s rise;

    If the GOP establishment hadn’t literally sold out (flipping on a core policy for $$$) on immigration, thus creati8ng enormous anger, Trump would have not had his opening.

    Had all the other candidates not tried to ignore immigration until Trump raised the issue when he entered the race, Trump would not have had his opening.

    The same is true on trade; when it comes to China, all too many pretend that there is no linkage at all between China’s military rise and its economic rise, and view trade with China in solely economic terms. This is yet another issue where Trump was handed an opening on a silver platter.

    Does any of this make Trump a great candidate? Of course not – but it would definitely behoove those who object to Trump to look at (and learn from) the how and the why he become the presumptive nominee, not just the fact that he has.

    Arizona CJ (da673d)

  111. The comments by the Trump defenders on this thread reek of the kind of immaturity …

    The nature is of the hostility exhibited by the Trump-tards in this very comment thread…

    This very comment thread. You don’t say…

    WTP (094b61)

  112. New poll

    Hillary 47% over Trump 41%.

    Danube River Guide (76b104)

  113. What matters is: Is Kagan correct about Trump and his pathetic, servile supporters? The nature is of the hostility exhibited by the Trump-tards in this very comment thread – never an actual argument, but plenty of bile for those perceived to be on the other side of a cultural divide – supports Kagan’s thesis.

    Fascism is more about the sub-animal mob than it is about the strongman who seeks to exploit them.

    Brian (77e70c) — 5/19/2016 @ 4:05 pm

    =============================================

    We’ve seen nothing but grief, a power grab and the expansion of the state and perceived dictatorial powers on the part of those who are the leaders of those on the other side of the divide. Put your condescension and your misplaced high and mighty attitude where the Sun gains no purchase, Brian, and the same goes for Kagan, the servant of Democrat party fascists.

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  114. #119 … be nice if you told us who the poll is from …. (I know the answer).

    Also be nice if you mentioned the other two polls who have it the other way.

    Might I also point out Oregon has Trump within 11 but Hillary is at 42. Oregon? Hillary ain’t winning Oregon?

    This election is not the usual R v D. Be best if folks put away Polls till October.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  115. The strongest argument against Trump are Trumpkins. But I don’t need, and I don’t trust, the likes of Kagan to tell me that. And it’s “ochlocracy” or “mob rule”. Not “mobocracy”. That’s not a word.

    nk (dbc370)

  116. 118… CBS/Yew Nork Times poll… woo hoo!!!!!!!!

    Colonel Haiku (32652f)

  117. #122 I still can’t get over the fact that Trumpkins were core to Cruz winning and the minute they abandon Cruz they are somehow unter-menschen.

    When Trumpkins vote Cruz — they are good and the Republic is saved.

    When Trumpkins vote Trump — they are sub humans deserving contempt and we are heading to Nazi Germany status.

    … LOL

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  118. I am of mind the Cruz supporters are menstrual and Trump is the egg.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  119. Will do C.S. Thanks.

    mg (31009b)

  120. Oh, The Life of Brian…

    mg (31009b)

  121. Bueno man

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  122. LOL @ moderation filter.

    Censoring reality that many thought Obola a “bueno man” in spite of the fact he was a vile Leftist from day 1 but Trump is the anti-christ.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  123. Cafone 2016!

    Cuz America needs a jackass to kick the Political elites in the ballz.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  124. #132 Well that does it. I am voting Hillary.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  125. #132, Imagine if WAPO did a story for every (D) Criminal?

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  126. nk, You excited about Americas Johnson?

    mg (31009b)

  127. Isn’t Perry a gun nut? Or am I thinking of some other commenter at Common Sense Political Thought? Not that I’m implying anything. Because I’m not. I’m just asking.

    nk (dbc370)

  128. Americas Johnson?

    nk (dbc370)

  129. and to think, romney promoted her, from a lowly skydragon netting post in the nutmeg state,

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/2016/05/17/epa-administrator-coal-is-not-competitive/

    where she became the kevorkian of coal,

    narciso (732bc0)

  130. ah bill weld, lurch beat him like a ‘red headed stepchild’ in the 96 senate race, what is with wasps being slammed by vicious punks, and then clinton nominated him as ambassador to mexico,

    narciso (732bc0)

  131. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Kagan best revisit the more contemporary realities of the Reagan era, when pomp and circumstance shaped the news; where image over substance set the agenda. As Mike Deaver knew all too well.

    Americans don’t wish to be governed- they want to be entertained.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  132. Those guys? No. Johnson is the only third party registered in Illinois the last time I looked (there may be more by the deadline) but I’d rather have Trump than him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Johnson#Political_positions

    nk (dbc370)

  133. no on Americas Johnson….

    mg (31009b)

  134. Trump is no Hitler.

    At worst, he’s Charlie Chaplin in ‘The Great Dictator.’

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  135. Mr. Trump is a lot of things but a fascist like Barack Obama he is not
    happyfeet (831175) — 5/19/2016 @ 7:45 am

    You have no effing idea whether Trump is a fascist or not. You despise Hillary, which is NOT unreasonable. What IS unreasonable is to declare that a bucket of warm spit is preferable to Hillary, and attempt to prove your point by backing a bucket of warm spit to oppose her.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6)

  136. I know for a fact Mr. Trump is not a fascist.

    happyfeet (831175)

  137. Hey, MG. If you’re talking to me in #109, you missed the point. The point was stated in “wrt blaming the other”. See how that works?
    If something we don’t like happens, and if I didn’t do it, and you didn’t do it, then who did? Nobody? So if we can’t blame The Other, then either we did it or it didn’t happen. Pick one.
    I’m not defending Trump. I’m talking about blaming the other, which was the first line of my post.
    Didn’t say anything about Trump.
    However, it appears that discussing an assertion made by our gracious host is the same as defending Trump. That kind of restricts the conversation.

    Richard Aubrey (472a6f)

  138. It’s gotten very silly, they said much the same about berlusconi, they still do 20 years later.

    narciso (732bc0)

  139. Cafone indeed. Michael Barone has identified Italian Americans as the key demo which resisted several R candidacies but is good ways in with Trump.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ethnicity-still-matters-in-the-politics-of-2016/article/2589344 . and to think I was warning people about the Carmela Soprano votes importance for a few cycles now.

    urbanleftbehind (d3ea16)

  140. Cafone indeed. Michael Barone has identified Italian Americans as the key demo which resisted several R candidacies but is good ways in with Trump.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ethnicity-still-matters-in-the-politics-of-2016/article/2589344 . and to think I was warning people about the Carmela Soprano votes importance for a few cycles now.

    Trump can come out in favor of Carmela’s keeping the spec house.

    Mitch (bfd5cd)

  141. 144
    No, Trump us not a fascist. But he encourages tendencies that lead that way.
    Nor is Obama, narcissistic vampire of power that he is.
    If we are descending into fascism, it is not the classic sort. And the slide began decades ago.

    Think for a moment: upthread someone listed the more obvious “tyrannies” of the current President. Among them was the IRS treatment of Tea Party groups. Imagine for yourself how Samuel Adams or any other member of the generation of 1776 might view your complaint that such treatment was unrestrained tyranny…

    kishnevi (93670d)

  142. Have you read the declaration kish?

    narciso (732bc0)

  143. Samuel Adams or any other member of the generation of 1776 might view the IRS was unrestrained tyranny…

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  144. Richard Aubrey – my post was @ Rich Rostrom #100.

    mg (31009b)

  145. Rev H @151
    My point exactly, if you mean the mere existence of the IRS.

    kishnevi (294553)

  146. Horseshoe offices, draining our martow, it words tonthat effect.

    narciso (732bc0)

  147. Well you get the gist.

    narciso (732bc0)

  148. For your information L.N. Smithee my head was never in “the sand”. And I’ve never been one to rely on what’s “comfortable”. But thank you for popping your own head out of your a$$ long enough for me to tell you this: My head was firmly educated in the jungle of Vietnam and I know a communist when I see one. The only way “it could happen here” is if idiots like you allow a leftist democrat to be elected because you’re too self-absorbed to swallow your poor little pride and do what is necessary to keep Hillary out of the White House. I have a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts so before you start slinging your sh!t at me you better think about what you say you little disrespectful punk.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193) — 5/19/2016 @ 12:34 pm

    You’re never going to hear me disparage anyone’s honorable service (Bowe Bergdahl and Bradley/Chelsea Manning do not apply). And for expediency’s sake, I’ll choose not to engage in a conversation about whether your Vietnam experience really gave you any insights about similarities between the methodologies of Hillary Clinton and Ho Chi Minh. But you assert that having been in the thick of the war gives you the right to slough off concerns about Trump, and that’s nonsense that all the military awards in the world won’t change. It’s especially rich to me that you reference your status as a Vietnam veteran in defense of a man who, like most of the hated “establishment” politicians, found a way to avoid heading east (phantom “bone spurs”), while he blithely and cruelly dismissed the service of John McCain.
    You referred to a man who — passively, if not actively — seeks the favor of white supremacists, speaks without provocation about his admiration for fascist dictators “a loutish businessman who’s not PC.” No, he’s a petty, immature man with an ego that dwarfs Barack Obama’s, and who wrote a bestselling book full of reasons why nobody should ever trust him. Every day, there’s a new reason to question his honesty, his intelligence, his sanity, and his principles (that is to say, whether he HAS any besides gaining more power for himself).

    You asked Pat:

    Ya really gonna go with the trump as Hitler meme? Because that improves the political landscape how?

    My answer to that: Noting similarities in the rise of past tyrannical strongmen brings realism to what’s going on in the GOP as we speak. I have no interest in soft-pedaling the obvious, myriad deficiencies of Trump in the hopes people will buy that however bad he can be, he’s better than a “commie.” Concerns about fascism were hysterical garbage when the left threw it at Reagan, both Bushes, and McCain and Romney (not so much Nixon). Trump doesn’t even seem to have the self-awareness to realize that he’s the personification of the bogeyman Democrats wanted to run against for years, and that they need now that their standard-bearers are so lame. I would just love to dismiss Robert Kagan, a lefty steeped in the kind of touchy-feely horsehockey going on at Foggy Bottom, but I can’t, because I’ve said what he’s said about fascism long before he applied it to Trump. You read history of the rise of such people and think, “What were they thinking? Weren’t there people who stood against Hitler, or Mussolini, or Hirohito?” Now, I’m living through it on TWO fronts, even if Kagan doesn’t acknowledge it happening on the left. Truth retains its validity regardless of who’s telling it.

    In my wildest dreams, I never thought that after seven years of enduring Obama’s act, and finally on the cusp of political viability, Tea Party conservatives would decide they couldn’t wait a second longer to stand on principles, and went with a big-talking carnival barker without a moment of government experience of any kind. I said it all the way back in 2000, and I’ll say it again: President Of The United States of America is NOT An Entry-Level Position. If elected, Donald John Trump will be the LEAST qualified President in the history of the United States of America. People had the opportunity to realize they are making the same mistake many Democrats did in 2008, writ large. Now, regardless of who’s victorious, we will all suffer.

    Never has “choosing the lesser of two evils” been so applicable, and so difficult. You can do what you want with your vote. I will not cast one for Trump nor Clinton. And if that makes me a “disrespectful punk,” so be it.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6)

  149. I know for a fact Mr. Trump is not a fascist.
    happyfeet (831175) — 5/19/2016 @ 6:28 pm

    Prove it.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6)

  150. There are reasonable arguments against trump, 93rd his affinity with volodya. His indifference to the deal with the brothers, refining that prohibition on salafist, but you haven’t made them.

    narciso (732bc0)

  151. #157

    Absence of swaztikas behind podium at rallies?
    Rather than make someone else prove what is not, why not prove what you think is real.
    If you think Trump is a fascist then the burden of proof is on you… and say what you will about Trump, I cannot see that any charge of “fascism” is based in fact.
    Bufoonery and a weird brand of populism isn’t fascism. So what about Trump is? His cult of personality is way below Obama’s and probably below Bernie

    steveg (fed1c9)

  152. There is an entire infrStructure, that the progs have in Place to ectort, indictrinate, annihilate the pitiful opposition, that would be at bidding of either doc brown or red queen.

    narciso (732bc0)

  153. Joyce, levick, Brennan center, think regress.

    narciso (732bc0)

  154. I know for a fact Mr. Trump is not a fascist.
    happyfeet (831175) — 5/19/2016 @ 6:28 pm

    Prove it.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6) — 5/19/2016 @ 7:43 pm

    Logic 101 much, Mr. Smithee?

    WTP (094b61)

  155. from ian kershaws biography “Hitler” pp 1011
    “the extreme form of personal rule which an ill-educated beerhall demagogue and racist bigot, a narcissistic, megalomaniac, self styled national saviour, was allowed to acquire and exercise in a modern, economically advanced and cultured land, known for its philosophers and poets was absolutely decisive in the terrible unfolding of events in those fateful twelve years”

    If you believe the first part of the quote bears any resemblance to the current presumptive republican nominee, then raising concerns to avoid any type of similar disasters seems quite reasonable.

    cmd (fc864c)

  156. known for its philosophers and poets

    Hadn’t considered this before but maybe that’s the root of the problem. Or possibly that Versailles treaty. One of the two…three…

    WTP (094b61)

  157. That ignores the reason Mises and Hayek rebelled against the dirigiste economics that dominated before creditanstalt.

    narciso (732bc0)

  158. Huey Long was getting set to run against FDR in ’36, from the Left. Our own Il Duce. Then someone who he pissed off shot him.

    “God protects drunks, fools and the United States of America.”
    — Otto von Bismark

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  159. Logic 101 much, Mr. Smithee?

    WTP (094b61) — 5/19/2016 @ 8:08 pm

    Back up, pal. I wasn’t asking babytalk to prove a negative. I was asking him to prove a fact.

    You agree that facts, by their nature, are provable, don’t you?

    L.N. Smithee (472caf)

  160. no no no Mr The LN ima prove it what with some really clever insult and add -trash to names of colleges i think

    ima quote some ad jingle what make me so funny and edgy i think
    aint i soooooo contrarian i think

    scooby and scrappyfeet (2feb5b)

  161. 24. Patterico:

    If one were looking for warning signs, what warning signs would one look for?

    You may need a combination of all of these:

    1. Massive amounts of lying, especially implausible lies.

    2. Unconcern about the lives of human beings – in fact a general disregard for the principle that people should not be killed. Occasional exceptions may not meet this
    criteria, although every little step in this direction is not good.

    3. Defiance, or a willingness to defy, all or any laws that stand in the person’s way, and encouragement to other people to ignore and defy laws. The more basic the laws, the worse – the more important a sign this is.

    ———————————————–

    Another thing to look out for: One of the things that resulted in Hitler assuming power in Germany was a belief among some people (to whom aspects of his program weren’t so bad) that he could be controlled – that is, he was not competent or experienced enough to be a dictator.

    There was the thought he had gotten started by other people…he was just a tool…he couldn’t run things on his own.

    Sammy Finkelman (fb542d)

  162. If you believe the first part of the quote bears any resemblance to the current presumptive republican nominee, then raising concerns to avoid any type of similar disasters seems quite reasonable.

    No, if you believe the first part of the quote bears any resemblance to the current presumptive Republican nominee, then your anti-Trump proclivities have metastasized into a full blown pathology.

    Plus, if you believe there is any similarity between 67 million full-blooded Germans (in 1936) who were groomed from birth to obey the Kaiser and authority and 318 million mixed up American mutts who tend to thumb their noses at any authority you don’t understand the American psyche.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  163. If we’re going to talk about Hitler, he was 31 when he “entered politics”; 32 when he took over the Nazi Party; 45 when he had built it up so it could elect him Leader; and 56 when he died. Not only will Tiny Donnie be 70 next month, his constituency and organization are both as ephemeral as his grasp on reality. Lot of sizzle, no steak; all hat, no cattle; one foot in the grave; no cadre for a Man In The High Castle scenario.

    nk (dbc370)

  164. I didn’t have the specifics in front of me,

    http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

    but does any of this sound like zaphod or trump,

    narciso (732bc0)

  165. Hi DRJ @40, in 2000, the Supreme Court *unanimously* held that Massachusetts could not prohibit *state entities* from buying goods or services from any person who was doing business with Burma (as a form of sanctions against the government of Burma). Congress had, at the time, imposed sanctions on Burma directly.

    The Congressional sanctions were interpreted has having implicitly field pre-empted the entire question of sanctions against Burma. Furthermore, the Court held:

    “the state Act undermines the President’s capacity, in this instance for effective diplomacy. It is not merely that the differences between the state and federal Acts in scope and type of sanctions threaten to complicate discussions; they compromise the very capacity of the President to speak for the Nation with one voice in dealing with other governments. We need not get into any general consideration of limits of state action affecting foreign affairs to realize that the President’s maximum power to persuade rests on his capacity to bargain for the benefits of access to the entire national economy without exception for enclaves fenced off willy-nilly by inconsistent political tactics.”

    It seems to me that under the precedent set by this (I repeat, unanimously decided) case, Texas’ continued sanctions are illegal and will not be supported by the courts.

    See _Crosby v National Foreign Trade Council_ 530 US 363.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  166. and this just illustrates, how business will find ways to rationalize trading with enemies, from germany to iraq in the 80s, to Iran now,

    narciso (732bc0)

  167. Not only will Tiny Donnie be 70 next month, his constituency and organization are both as ephemeral as his grasp on reality.

    This is actually an important point – it almost entirely rules it out before even examining anything else (and he doesn’t meet the criteria of being very evil either.)

    Plus, he’s got children whom he loves.

    He’s no Robert Mugabe.

    Sammy Finkelman (e328e3)

  168. I guess they seem him as bizarro reagan, then again back in 1980, they saw the gipper the same way.

    http://freebeacon.com/politics/wealthy-saudi-family-history-violence-emerge-top-clinton-foundation-dem-donors/

    narciso (732bc0)

  169. Hitler and his party campaigned on replacing democracy with dictatorship and it was quite popular.

    When are you talking about, specifically, Gabriel? Before or after he was chancellor? He promised to respect the democratic process in 1925. If you’re talking about something that happened before he was in power, I’d be interested to see the proof.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  170. aphrael,

    I don’t think that case applies because not all Iranian sanctions have been lifted by Obama’s deal:

    While international sanctions, including those affecting U.S. companies abroad, are largely lifted, U.S. bilateral economic and other sanctions remain in place.

    Gov Abbott made it clear last January when this deal was finalized that he was strengthening the non-nuclear sanctions that are still in place, and his recent announcement was in response to an Obama Administration letter requesting him to review that decision.

    DRJ (15874d)

  171. There is one possible similarity between Trump and Hitler that has not been mentioned yet. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12168314/Hitler-had-a-micropenis-as-well-as-just-one-testicle-historians-claim.html

    nk (dbc370)

  172. Hitler waited until after the 1933 elections to begin his open campaign to end democracy in Germany. One element of Hitler’s PR campaign reminds me of Obama’s proclivity for bowing to foreign dignitaries:

    Finishing his speech, Hitler walked over to Hindenburg and respectfully bowed before him while taking hold of the old man’s hand. The scene was recorded on film and by press photographers from around the world. This was precisely the impression Hitler and Goebbels wanted to give to the world, all the while plotting to toss aside Hindenburg and the elected Reichstag.

    DRJ (15874d)

  173. Hoagie,

    I thought I understood the American psyche. I don’t understand it anymore. We’ve gone back to 1828.

    DRJ (15874d)

  174. “Before or after he was chancellor? He promised to respect the democratic process in 1925. If you’re talking about something that happened before he was in power, I’d be interested to see the proof.”

    Hitler and the NSDAP tried seizing power in Bavaria two years prior.

    On a somewhat related noted, illegal political violence wasn’t uncommon in Germany during the Weimar years. Most major parties had paramilitary representatives of one kind or another. Even the Social Democrats had the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold, whose members went to bat (literally) against SA and Rotfront members.

    JP (bd5dd9)

  175. well slandering them, in the same manner, the left specializes in, doesn’t help, it’s like the village voice here, two out of five days,

    narciso (732bc0)

  176. @Patterico:Before or after he was chancellor? He promised to respect the democratic process in 1925. If you’re talking about something that happened before he was in power, I’d be interested to see the proof.

    Besides what he wrote in Mein Kampf? I’ll be happy to get some cites for you, but before I do that, what do you think of Kagan’s piece now that you know he worked in the State Department under Hillary Clinton and is working there now?

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  177. @DRJ:Hitler waited until after the 1933 elections to begin his open campaign to end democracy

    He said many things to many people about what his plans were from the 1920s on, and not always the same thing to every audience, but he laid out his problems with democracy and what he proposed to replace it with, should he ever gain power, in Mein Kampf. Your Obama reference is spot on: what did he and Hillary and John Kerry and John Edwards say publicly about same sex marriage in 2004 and 2008? Is there any doubt on where they really were with that, or did they all have individual epiphanies at the same time?

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  178. Hillary Clinton is also getting along in years, and there is nobody now to succeed the Clintons. It would have to be a minor figure in their political machine like Pierre Broadsman.

    The Roman Empire and Communist dictatorships worked that way – power was not inherited by the children of the people in power. The Roman Emperors because mostly they didn’t have children.

    Vladimir Putin is a little bit like that also. He’s causing a lot of trouble, but he has no successor.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  179. Obama wrote books, too, Gabriel, but enough Americans believed his lies that he supported traditional marriage and other traditional views that he was elected anyway. In other words, he was elected despite writing and privately saying that contradicted how he publicly presented himself and his views.

    Just like Hitler.

    DRJ (15874d)

  180. @DRJ:Just like Hitler.

    No, Hitler publicly opposed democracy and promised to replace it. Don’t have time now to assemble the cites, but Mein Kampf is one example of him doing so.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  181. You keep saying that, Gabriel, and I responded with an analogy. Did you understand my analogy?

    DRJ (15874d)

  182. @DRJ:Did you understand my analogy?

    Yes. It is not analogous. Hitler did not keep his plans secret or private. He published them for the world to see. This part

    he was elected despite writing and privately saying that contradicted how he publicly presented himself and his views

    is not true of Hitler. Or Mussolini for that matter, after whom Hitler patterned himself before he surpassed Mussolini.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  183. Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 5/20/2016 @ 8:52 am

    what do you think of Kagan’s piece now that you know he worked in the State Department under Hillary Clinton and is working there now?

    > It was his wife, Victoria Nuland, daughter of Dr Sherwin Nuland, who worked there, and she was one one of the more honest people there.

    She is still working in the State Department now, under John Kerry, as Assistant Secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, which means she can’t be too close to Hillary Clinton, or she would have left with her.

    http://uatoday.tv/politics/nuland-u-s-won-t-recognize-elections-in-donbas-unless-minsk-is-implemented-650519.html

    Robert Kagan is not working for the Clinton campaign. He’s a columnist for the Washington Post (which is where this came from) and also a contributing editor at The New Republic and the Weekly Standard.

    Political Democrats, yes, but not Hillary people. I wouldn’t expect either one of them to even get a job in a Hillary Clinton Administration, unless it was to make them look they were in charge, and hide who really was.

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  184. Hitler used democracy to overthrow democracy. (By the way, some of the links you need are in my link.) Hitler wrote about wanting dictatorial powers and I agree Germans wanted a strongman, just as Republicans do now, but that doesn’t mean Germans wanted a dictator. I submit Hitler had to use democracy to gain power because they didn’t.

    DRJ (15874d)

  185. On another front:

    http://freebeacon.com/politics/wealthy-saudi-family-history-violence-emerge-top-clinton-foundation-dem-donors/

    http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2015/apr/20/reince-priebus/hillary-clinton-took-money-kings-four-countries-go/ (Somehow – because of Clinton double agent, maybe? – Reince Priebus gave Yemen a king and had him donate to the Clinton Foundation so Politifact rated it Half True.)

    So whom do you prefer to see having a strong influence on U.S Foreign Policy?

    A. Vladimir Putin

    or

    B. Very possibly supporters of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks?

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  186. Germany also had a bad constitution, with provisions for emergency powers.

    Democracy can be lost three ways:

    1) Within the law, sort of anyway.

    2) Outside the law, through a coup.

    3) Through foreign invasion.

    All three methods need to be guarded against

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  187. Gabriel, do you agree that Hitler used propaganda to hide his intentions or to sugarcoat them for mass consumption?

    DRJ (15874d)

  188. I agree Obola used propaganda to hide his intentions and to sugarcoat them for mass consumption.

    Rodney King's Spirit (e2dd8e)

  189. @Finkelman: It was his wife, Victoria Nuland, daughter of Dr Sherwin Nuland, who worked there, and she was one one of the more honest people there.

    I already posted the damned link to the State Department website where you can see that he is listed there. I will post it, AGAIN.

    Here is Wikipedia:

    “Kagan has also served on the State Department’s Foreign Affairs Policy Board under Secretaries of State Hillary Clinton[16] and John Kerry.[17] ”

    The numbers there are inline citations. Feel free to look them up.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  190. @DRJ: I do not have time now to assemble the citations. I told you I would, later.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  191. @Sammy Finkelman: It was his wife, Victoria Nuland, daughter of Dr Sherwin Nuland, who worked there, and she was one one of the more honest people there.

    Why do I even bother posting links? He did indeed serve in the State Department under Hillary Clinton. I already linked to it. I didn’t confuse him for his wife.

    On Monday, December 19th, Secretary Clinton will host the first meeting of the Foreign Affairs Policy Board. The Board is composed of 25 members who will meet at the Department of State periodically to discuss issues of high priority for the Secretary and the Department. It will focus on broad strategic questions and provide the Secretary and other senior Department officials with insights, perspectives, and ideas. Secretary Clinton will meet with the Board several times during the duration of her tenure.

    Secretary Clinton selected a distinguished, diverse, and bipartisan membership with a wide range of expertise and background, including past government service, academia, politics, development, and business. Strobe Talbott, President of the Brookings Institution and a former Deputy Secretary of State, will serve as the Board’s Chair. He will work closely with the Secretary and her Policy Planning Director, Jake Sullivan, to coordinate the Board and its meetings.

    The Board’s members are listed below. Each will serve a two-year term.

    Liaquat Ahamed

    Ann Fudge

    Helene Gayle

    Nina Hachigian

    Stephen Hadley

    Jane Harman

    Carla Hills

    Alberto Ibargüen

    Robert Kagan

    Rachel Kleinfeld

    Jim Kolbe

    Stephen Krasner

    Ellen Laipson

    Mack McLarty

    Mike Mullen

    Vali Nasr

    John Negroponte

    Jacqueline Novogratz

    Tom Pickering

    John Podesta

    Anne-Marie Slaughter

    James Steinberg

    Strobe Talbott

    Laura Tyson

    Rich Verma

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  192. Robert Kagan is not working for the Clinton campaign. He’s a columnist for the Washington Post… and also a contributing editor at The New Republic and the Weekly Standard.

    Actually, Sammy Finkelman, those credentials make Kagan not only a Hillary campaign supporter but most likely an inside operative.

    Rev. Hoagie ™ (734193)

  193. I was not trying to rush you, Gabriel. I pointed my link out because I thought it might help you, but that was my mistake. Please take your time in responding to Patterico and ignore my comments.

    DRJ (15874d)

  194. Kagan is a dyed-in-the-wool Dem and so is Victoria. Her job is a political appointee position.

    nk (dbc370)

  195. you’ve gone full godwin,

    http://www.tomatobubble.com/hitler_democracy.html

    narciso (732bc0)

  196. The arguments about Hitler and his assumption of dictatorial power are interesting. Gabriel’s side is basically that the German power elite should have known that Hitler had maniacal ambitions in 1933. The problem is that this conclusion is based on what we know now. People say many things, and it is only after those people take action that we really know what was significant. And no one in Germany foresaw just how violent and bloody thirsty Hitler would be. They saw him as a typical politician, because, of course, they were typical politicians.

    This isn’t to say that Hitler couldn’t have been figured out. Certainly Winston Churchill recognized him for what he was in the early 1930s and as a result he spent the mid-30’s in the political “wilderness”. The English power elite wanted to believe otherwise, and Churchill was sent to the back bench. It is interesting that Hitler saw Churchill as a significant opponent even though Churchill had no political power at the time. And if nk and Gabriel had lived at the time, they might have allied with Churchill. As did a significant number of mid-level bureaucrats and military officers. Their covert support allowed Churchill to challenge the propaganda that the government of Great Britain chose to release which painted a very rosy picture about the relative strengths of Germany compared to Britain’s allies, particularly in the areas of air power and the German development of coordinated actions with air- and ground forces via extensive use of radios. In this respect, the actions of the U.K. government in the 30’s is very similar to the Obama/Kerry handling of the arming of Iran with nuclear warheads and ICBMs. Appeasement for its own sake is a terrible master.

    I agree with nk’s point that Trump is no Hitler. Trump is a buffoon, and this campaign for the Presidency is not the culmination of his life’s work. He is an accident brought on by the incredible incompetence of the Republican Party. However, Trump is a real danger to the country simply because he has not spent any significant time preparing himself for the position. What will he do in the next market collapse? We’ve dumped $3T into the banks via Quantitative Easing, and the low interest (or no interest) rates are propping up the stock market. Will he double down? Who knows. It will likely depend on who talks to him last. And even more troubling, we know how he deals with dissent. He torches those whom he considers enemies. This will deprive him of the good advice many would be willing to give him, if the danger of public humiliation encompassing them and their families wasn’t so obviously present.

    Our country has an enormous amount of wealth, but we have many weaknesses associated with the scale of our fundamental services and utilities. We have seen the disruption that localized disasters can inflict. Katrina, the Northridge earthquake, and Mt. St. Helens, all played havoc locally. But in each case, help finally arrived, and in a matter of a few years, life returned to normalcy even in the hardest hit locales. A massive, large scale or country wide disruption, either inflicted by nature, say a Richter 9 seafloor subsidence off the Washington coast, or by a few thousand terrorists with carefully selected targets, could present difficulties that would challenge our very lives because we are so dependent upon one another. Will Trump take action to mitigate the likely problems, or will he be enmeshed in political horse-trading over the number of Transgender locker rooms our public schools will be required to install to keep their (paltry and misdirected) Federal funding. My bet is that Trump will spend his time responding to problems with no thought of anticipating them. And I don’t think his supporting cast will be any better. Under Trump, we might stumble into martial law, but it will be by accident.

    BobStewartatHome (404986)

  197. “by accident” .. “by accident on Trump’s part, if not our enemies.”

    BobStewartatHome (404986)

  198. @BobStewart:Gabriel’s side is basically that the German power elite should have known that Hitler had maniacal ambitions in 1933.

    Not exactly. The World War wasn’t something even Hitler planned for, and neither was the form which the Final Solution took, those things no one could have known at the time. But his hostility to democracy and his intention to replace it with dictatorship, yes.

    @DRJ:Please take your time in responding to Patterico and ignore my comments.

    I do not wish to ignore your comments. But substantiating what I have said will take a lot of time because a lot of it is not online. I may find that some of what I wish to cite can be linked to, but other parts of it cannot be.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  199. 192.Hitler used democracy to overthrow democracy.

    To paraphrase Frederick Douglass, Hitler used the ammo box long before he cottoned to the ballot box. He never won an election outright, and if memory serves, the NSDAP only achieved a plural majority in the March ’33 election following his appointment to Chancellor.

    Not surprisingly, Berlin’s murder rate jumped in the month prior to that election, a period in which uniformed SA members openly patrolled as hilfpolizei “auxiliaries” alongside Berlin police.

    JP (bd5dd9)

  200. @BobStewart:And if nk and Gabriel had lived at the time, they might have allied with Churchill.

    You flatter me and I wish I could believe it, but I don’t have any confidence that I would have been immune to wishful thinking or even attentive and perceptive. I might have been far more worried about Stalin than Hitler, or I might have been in some fringe movement like Social Credit, no way to know. In terms of my own lifetime, I certainly didn’t think people like bin Laden would so dominate the 2000s. I was definitely, in those days, an End-of-History guy like a lot of people were then.

    If 9/11 hadn’t happened, along with all its consequences, might we have been asking ourselves now why we didn’t stop Qaddafi or some guy we never heard of when we had the chance? The world is full of people like Hitler. He wasn’t some alien dropped on us for our sins. If Hitler haad been stopped in 1936 or 1939 he’d be a footnote: like Franco, he’d have mattered enormously to the nation he’d inflicted himself on but not to anyone else.

    Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi are now footnotes. For all we know the future will call this century “the Age of Kanye”.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  201. @JP:He never won an election outright,

    Neither did Bill Clinton.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  202. the Social Credit is the basis for the Canadian reform party, I pointed out how both zaphod and red queen, would unleash the leviathan, that tocqueville, and the declaration both warned against,

    narciso (732bc0)

  203. Neither did Bill Clinton.

    Are we talking elections or erections

    JP (bd5dd9)

  204. I know for a fact Mr. Trump is not a fascist.
    happyfeet (831175) — 5/19/2016 @ 6:28 pm

    Prove it.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6) — 5/19/2016 @ 7:43 pm

    Logic 101 much, Mr. Smithee?

    WTP (094b61) — 5/19/2016 @ 8:08 pm

    *********

    Well plenty of his fans are. Go take a good hard look at Donnie’s fan base at reddit. Scary stuff.

    Danube River Guide (76b104)

  205. He never won an election outright,

    *********

    Hitler won the election to combine the Chancellory and Presidency by 90%.

    Danube River Guide (76b104)


  206. There is an entire infrStructure, that the progs have in Place to ectort, indictrinate, annihilate the pitiful opposition, that would be at bidding of either doc brown or red queen.

    narciso (732bc0) — 5/19/2016 @ 7:59 pm

    Don’t insult the name of Dr. Emmett Brown like that. Especially considering the fact that Alternate 1985 Reality Biff Tannen is running in this race as well.

    L.N. Smithee (b84cf6)

  207. I use doc brown as shorthand, I’ll accept der komissar, and when you look at the behind the scene books, there was no notion about trump, at the time.

    I find this entire ‘sky is falling’ course of action, rather counterproductive,

    narciso (732bc0)

  208. Hitler won the election to combine the Chancellory and Presidency by 90%.

    That was not a parliamentary election for either executive office.

    It was a referendum to ratify the merging of the offices into the title of Fuehrer, Hitler having abolished the post of President earlier that month following the death of Hindenburg.

    JP (bd5dd9)

  209. do I really need to provide more evidence of the borg:

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-irss-ugly-business-as-usual-1463700465?tesla=y

    narciso (732bc0)

  210. To be fair to Trump, this kind of demagoguery can only be successful when the “reasonable” leadership has utterly failed. He won’t wave us, but we apparently have to try this first. After he fails, and blames Bush and Obama, then maybe we’ll get to the real issues.

    Or not. It might be too late, and THIS is what we’ll have for our Augustus.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  211. *He won’t save us

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  212. no I don’t see him as dynastic, just a familiar character,

    https://twitter.com/20committee/status/733286892523950081

    throat warbler mangrove (732bc0)

  213. sorry about that.

    narciso (732bc0)

  214. He worked for Hillary at State and is working for Kerry there now, and publishing in what will be Hillary’s state newspaper. He is not a disinterested observer. I’m just amazed that Patterico takes what he says at face value.

    It’s an opinion. There’s nothing I am accepting “at face value.” Your ad hominem fallacy at Kagan has nothing to do with the validity of his argument.

    Kagan has been a foreign policy advisor to Jack Kemp, a speechwriter for George Shultz, and a foreign policy adviser to John McCain. Not sure if anyone has mentioned any of that here, but I looked it up before I wrote the post — because I was curious about his background, not because it was important.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  215. you disqualify potential jurors and you disqualify them emphatically for far lesser conflicts of interest

    no?

    happyfeet (831175)

  216. Besides what he wrote in Mein Kampf? I’ll be happy to get some cites for you, but before I do that, what do you think of Kagan’s piece now that you know he worked in the State Department under Hillary Clinton and is working there now?

    I knew he had Hillary connections before I posted and I don’t think you have stated them accurately.

    Hitler did not keep his plans secret or private. He published them for the world to see.

    OK. By that logic, Trump has not kept his penchant for exaggeration secret. He published it for the world to see in the Art of the Deal.

    And he has not made his plans to assume dictatorial powers secret. He told us all, in a debate, that he plans to give orders to the military that he expects them to obey even if they are illegal. That is the very definition of a dictator.

    Sure, he has walked that back, and claimed to be truthful. Just like Hitler publicly promised to employ democratic means in 1925:

    After the Beer Hall Putsch, the government of the German state of Bavaria banned the Nazi Party and its newspaper, the Völkischer Beobachter (Peoples’ Observer). Also, the Nazi Party was now badly disorganized with much infighting among its leaders.

    Early in 1925, Hitler visited the Prime Minister of Bavaria and managed to convince him to lift the ban, on the promise of good behavior, and after promising that the Nazis would work within the rules of the democratic constitution. He then wrote a long editorial for the Völkischer Beobachter called “A New Beginning,” published February 26, 1925.

    So, despite his previous positions in his book, he made public pronouncements later that contradicted them.

    So which is it, Gabriel? If someone holds a particular position (partial birth abortion OK, I hate guns, I exaggerate all the time, I’ll give illegal orders to the military) but later contradicts them, can we assume the public ignores the walkback and goes with the original position. Or if someone makes a new promise (I’ll operate within the democratic framework, says Hitler) can we believe the new position?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  217. you disqualify potential jurors and you disqualify them emphatically for far lesser conflicts of interest

    no?

    Sure, and that has zero to do with evaluating a written argument that one can accept or attack on its own merits.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  218. Just pretend Kagan is Trump. Then you’ll be able to spin it in his favor.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  219. mr. kagan is going to make comparing the pee-stank old orange man to hitler great again

    and then eat some tasty waffles

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  220. yes, but the important point was the beer hall putsch, which fidel echoed thirty years later,
    ‘history will absolve me’ and hugo chavez, tried nearly 40 years later,

    to miss how this administration has crushed dissenters in the media, through the irs, osha, select appointees in the fec, fcc, protected militias like the new black panther party isolated those who have spoken up, the benedetto piece,

    narciso (732bc0)

  221. hello

    he’s married to a chick that helped spin the benghazi talking points

    Mr. narciso at #69

    A career diplomat who served as a foreign policy adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney and U.S. ambassador to NATO under President George W. Bush, Nuland has been a central character in the ongoing saga over the September attacks in Benghazi, Libya. According to email communications released by the White House last week, Nuland was troubled by drafts of the administration’s talking points that made “assertions to the media that we ourselves are not making because we don’t want to prejudice the investigation.”

    She also raised concerns that some drafts of the talking points laid blame for the inadequate security at the diplomatic outpost on the State Department. “The penultimate point could be abused by Members to beat the [Pee-stank] State Department for not paying attention to Agency warnings,” Nuland wrote, referring to language indicating the CIA had warned State of attacks on foreign diplomats in Benghazi.

    happyfeet (831175)

  222. I am having trouble seeing how Hitler’s statements in Mein Kampf show that he “campaigned on” replacing democracy. That was Gabriel’s original claim.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  223. Trying to connect Trump and Hitler isn’t very useful — I very much doubt that Trump has that level of murderous intent. He’s maybe a fascist, but it seems more likely he’s a pissed off guy who wants to tear a few extra azzholes and doesn’t care how it’s done. The fact that he thinks he can just issue orders and have things done though is worrisome. I wonder what happens when that doesn’t work for him.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  224. I am having trouble seeing how Hitler’s statements in Mein Kampf show that he “campaigned on” replacing democracy.

    Would a public speech where Hitler proclaimed the goal of “sweeping away” Germany’s thirty other political parties qualify?

    JP (d739e5)

  225. 207 BobStewartatHome:

    Gabriel’s side is basically that the German power elite should have known that Hitler had maniacal ambitions in 1933… And no one in Germany foresaw just how violent and bloody thirsty Hitler would be. They saw him as a typical politician…

    This is not accurate. Everyone in Germany knew Hitler was not “a typical politician”, if only because of the Beer Hall Putsch, but certainly Mein Kampf and the Brownshirts as well. Hindenburg did; he said he would never appoint “that Austrian corporal” Chancellor.

    A “typical politician” probably would have been included in the government in 1930, when the NSDAP became the second largest party. The SDP would not have propped up the minority government of the Zentrum from 1930 to 1932 to prevent a “typical politician” from gaining in a new election. The SDP, Zentrum, and other politicians would not have persuaded semi-senile, 84-year-old President Hindenburg to run for another term in March 1932 to prevent a “typical politician” from winning the Presidency. A “typical politician” would have been appointed Chancellor in August 1932, when the NSDAP became the largest party, and no parliamentary majority could be formed without either the NSDAP or the Communists.

    Instead there was six months of “presidential rule” by emergency decrees, and another election in November (with a smaller NSDAP vote, but the same parliamentary deadlock). Finally in January 1933, Hindenburg gave in. It should be noted that von Papen, who helped pressure Hindenburg, also wanted to end democracy, and saw Hitler as ally for that, not a “typical politician”.

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)

  226. mg@109, 110: Thanks for confirming nk@122’s comment that “The strongest argument against Trump are Trumpkins.” Apparently you have limited literacy, or you would have noticed that I wrote “Trump is not the same as Hitler, nor is his support a fascist movement.”

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)


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