Patterico's Pontifications

3/3/2016

GOP Debate Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:49 pm



[guest post by Dana]

The Fox News GOP Debate is coming from Detroit tonight, and will be televised by Fox News beginning at 9:00 pm ET. The final four, Trump, Cruz, Rubio, and Kasich will be on the stage.

Predictions?

Wagers?

Choice of adult beverage?

–Dana

454 Responses to “GOP Debate Open Thread”

  1. Tammy Bruce via NPR:

    If voter turnout is any indicator of enthusiasm, this year’s GOP voters are way, way more pumped than 2012 voters were. Democrats, meanwhile? Their excitement seems to have dimmed since 2008.
    Last night, more than 8.5 million Republicans turned out to vote in the 11 GOP Super Tuesday states that reported results. That suggests far more enthusiasm than the last time Republicans picked a nominee. In those same 11 states in 2012, turnout totaled only around 4.7 million.
    That makes this year’s turnout in those 11 states 81 percent higher than four years ago.
    Contrast that with the Democrats. In the Dems’ 11 states reporting results from last night, turnout totaled only around 5.9 million — that’s around 2.6 million fewer people than came out in those states 2008, when Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were in the middle of what would would be a long, hard-fought race.
    Here’s how that looked on a state-by-state basis. Only in Colorado did Democrats exceed their 2008 turnout. On the GOP side, Vermont was the only place with lower turnout than in 2012.

    DNF (ffe548)

  2. Rubio will directly attack Trump, he’s already too invested in slime to back-off now, Cruz will try to stay clear of the mud slinging, and Trump will try to keep his temper in check, but will fail.

    Yuengling Lager.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  3. The reason for strong Republican turnout ain’t loyalty or cross overs:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2016/03/exhibit-93060-gope-just-doesn-get-it.html

    America means Masters Rove, Ryan, Preibus et al. harm.

    Conservatives and the GOPe are agreed on one thing, split the Republican vote 3 or more ways.

    DNF (755a85)

  4. Not all of that record turnout on the GOP side is attributable to Trump in a positive way.

    In Iowa and Texas, there were record turnouts to vote against Donald Trump and for Ted Cruz.

    In fact, in Texas on Tuesday, the Texas GOP more than doubled its turnout from the previous record-setting turnout in 2012. Cruz beat Trump like a rented mule, by eighteen full percentage points. And in so doing, he won more than 200K more votes than Romney won in 2012 in Texas even though Romney was running unopposed.

    (The reason for the 2012 record turnout, btw, even though the presidential race was already decided by the time Texas voted in late May, was … Ted Cruz again. The turnout for Cruz explained how he finished second in a seven-candidate race to force David Dewhurst into a primary runoff — which Cruz then, in yet another record-setting turnout, proceeded to turn into a devastating come-from-behind landslide.)

    We’ve known Ted Cruz longest here in Texas. I’ve been among his fans since I read his briefing in the 2003 redistricting litigation, in which as Texas Solicitor General he won SCOTUS approval of a redistricting plan that led very directly to flipping the Democrats’ profound overrepresentation in the U.S. House (which was the product of a Dem gerrymander dating back to the early 1990s). I was watching when Ted Cruz fought for your and my religious liberty before the SCOTUS — he was so good at that, in fact, that on the same day the SCOTUS ruled that the Ten Commandments could not be displayed in Kentucky courtrooms, it also ruled that those same Ten Commandments could be displayed on the Texas Capitol grounds. Ted Cruz thereby forestalled a dangerous national precedent that would totally perverted the reach of the Establishment Clause. Yes, Ted Cruz has been fighting for your religious liberty too, for more than a decade — even if you aren’t from Texas and you never knew his name.

    Texans turned out this week to vote for him so overwhelmingly because he’s done exactly what he promised us he’d do when he ran for the Senate. He’s fighting the good fight with every breath in his body.

    And it’s not all tilting at windmills, either: Cruz was instrumental in legislative maneuvering that, in turn, made it possible for House conservatives to block the Schumer-Rubio Gang of Eight immigration deal.

    Now, Ted Cruz has shown that he can beat Trump in five states even in a multi-candidate race; he won four of those states outright, and he has more delegates than Rubio, Kasich, and Carson combined. In this week’s national voting, Trump had 34%, but Cruz was only 5% behind at 29%, while Marco Rubio trailed Trump by a full 12%. Rubio’s only won one state — Minnesota, a caucus state where Cruz also beat Trump and finished close to Rubio — and we all know that MN isn’t likely to become a red state this November.

    Kasich, of course, has little money, no national campaign, and no prospect of winning anywhere except, maybe, Ohio, where he currently trails Trump.

    Trump can still be beaten, soundly and fairly, and without any shenanigans at the convention that would arguably justify Trump in going 3d-party. But the GOP must unite behind Ted Cruz. Maybe he wasn’t your first or second or third choice. But he’s now the only meaningful alternative to Trump.

    Cruz has had many chances to rule out or throw cold water on the idea of a Cruz/Rubio unity ticket. He hasn’t. But Rubio, and the GOP establishment figures who’d prefer Rubio to Cruz, need to face reality. If they don’t, they hand the Party of Lincoln to Trump.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  5. 4. “the GOP must unite behind Ted Cruz.”

    Unicorn whinnies and pixie dust, if GOPe were to back Cruz ‘twould be the kiss of death.

    MM via Don Surber:

    http://donsurber.blogspot.com/2016/03/tweet-of-day_3.html

    We detest each and every spokesperson with an (R) after their name.

    DNF (ffe548)

  6. My read, based largely on Romney speech and the strategy he laid out, is the establishment goal is a brokered convention, which would mean the establishment picks the nominee (those delegates become unbound after the first, or on some cases second, ballot, and most of them are party operatives). This is their steal-the-nomination plan, and I suspect that their candidate will be Romney (or perhaps Rubio, if he wins Florida). I also think Jeb Bush is a possibility, but less so than Romney or Rubio. Won’t matter who though, because if they pull that off (stealing the nomination and giving it to someone who ran a distant third, a distant 5th, or not at all), we’re looking at epic defeat in November.

    To stop Trump from getting a majority of delegates, they pretty much have to stop him from winning Florida and Ohio (both winner-take-all).

    So, I’m predicting a real brawl tonight, the nastiest yet. My guess is that Trump faces a major test, and to pass it he’ll need to avoid shooting himself in the foot. With Trump, that’s a tall order.

    Arizona CJ (da673d)

  7. Wager? Imma gonna bet someone will be butthurt tonight.
    Adult beverage? unsweetened iced tea, no lemon, strong enough to grow hair on my toenails.

    Bill H (dcdd7b)

  8. Arizona CJ, your math is way off. Trump still has a long way to go even if he wins everywhere through March 15.

    After that, it does start to become mathematically impossible to pass him if he keeps winning winner-take-all primaries. But even if Rubio and Kasich stay in through their home-state primaries, all to no effect, Trump can still be caught.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  9. There might have been a record turn-out in Texas, but let’s face it – Cruz could only manage to get a whisker over 40% of the vote, that leave 6 out of 10 Texas Republicans rejecting a Cruz presidency.

    Should anyone think the above calculation is unfair, remember that’s exactly what Trump’s detractors have been doing all along, never once it seems to me, putting that ugly shoe on the other foot.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  10. 8. He didn’t provide math only judgement. Rubio is not a threat in FL.

    DNF (755a85)

  11. 7. I would imbibe but I wanna see my goddess off tomorrow on vacay after 6 AM Crossfit.

    DNF (ffe548)

  12. By your metrics, ropelight, it was a rout.

    JD (34f761)

  13. I agree with CJ, if Trump wins both Ohio and Florida it’s over for all practical purposes, Beldar’s straw grasping notwithstanding. With those 2 major notches on his belt, it a cake-walk for Trump to the nomination.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  14. Anyone remember the Pillar’s and Light’s results last time out, the most important vote of our collective lives?

    An electoral college beatdown. This time the plan is to steal their nomination after pulling one Romany trick after another.

    Even Hillary on her walker and lap these fools.

    DNF (755a85)

  15. Prediction: Chris Wallace will be a prick to Cruz.

    Not drinking. Saving a bottle of Irish whiskey for St. Paddy’s Day.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  16. 75% of Texans voted against Trump, ropelight. I know math is hard.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  17. Choice of adult beverage: I’ve got the scotch poured.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  18. My fervent hope is that if Trump is on the ropes, Megyn Kelly will not bail him out, as Wolfie did.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  19. I thought he called for a boycott:

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  20. Patrick, you may be right about Chris Wallace, but I think Cruz made a rare misstep in his appearance on Wallace’s Sunday show this weekend. He accused Wallace of taking his talking points from Trump in Wallace’s opening question to Cruz, which was about the “Cruz lies” meme. It’s true that Wallace’s question matched up with Trump talking points, but they weren’t exclusive to Trump; they really were just re-hashes of old claims that have been debunked or that have become irrelevant. When Cruz complained, Wallace — predictably — overreacted and got very defensive.

    I think both men may be on extra good behavior with each other tonight, actually.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  21. Can we talk about issues that matter???

    Dana (86e864)

  22. Hands????!!!!

    Dana (86e864)

  23. Rubio’s oversized ears… Trump’s undersized hands… Kelly’s need to be in the spotlight… Hoping to see and hear a real discussion of the issues… When. Get back home next week and watch the replay 🏄🏿

    Colonel Haiku (55bd85)

  24. Is this the only debate in history where a candidate’s genitals have been referred to?? Omg.

    Dana (86e864)

  25. This is what America needs: A president who feels compelled to reassure the world that he “guarantee[s] there’s no problem” with the size of his penis.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  26. But hey, ropelight’s not ashamed yet! You can’t shame the shameless.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  27. Report: Fox Chief Roger Ailes Says He’s ‘Finished With Rubio’

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  28. Oh, shut up, Kasich.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  29. The final four, Trump, Cruz, Rubio, and Kasich will be on the stage.

    Who had that in their brackets?

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  30. Choice of adult beverage?

    Given our future, pruno made to an old prison recipe I got from a guest of the state at Vacaville in Kali

    Recipe:

    1. Somehow get your hands on a carton of milk, 1 qt.
    2. Trade the milk for cigarettes or just pour out the milk.
    3. Somehow get your hands on a cup and a half of sugar
    4. Fill the carton the rest of the way with fruit juice
    5. Add some bread crusts or a few raisins for yeast.
    6. Use a drinking straw to vent into a shampoo bottle while it ferments to hide the alcohol smell
    7. When you stop noticing bubbles in your shampoo, it’s ready to drink.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  31. Cruz won the first round of questioning with Luntz group. Thank you, Chris Wallace?

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  32. Kasich “I can get people to work together across the aisle”
    Famous…last…words…

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  33. Omg. Kasich whining about not enough talking time while he yammered on and on and on…. Longer than anyone else.

    Dana (86e864)

  34. Wallace is such a turd.

    Cruz can cite the millions of folks who have more jobs freedom thanks to his winning in SCOTUS. I hope he goes there.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  35. CALL TRUMP ON THIS STUFF.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  36. Kasich going very whiney. “You wrote me off!” But won’t answer the question about his only path being through a contested convention.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  37. So far, Wallace has yet to demand Trump STFU when another candidate has the floor. He has told Rubio twice to stifle.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  38. Cruz is winning by not acting like Trump or Rubio.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  39. Being the attack dog does not do Rubio well…

    Are the boos against Rubio or Trump??

    I’m listening only because my dad is…

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  40. Kasich going very whiney. “You wrote me off!”

    Maybe because he still hasn’t won a single state.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  41. Is Cruz taking a coffee break? He’s disappeared off the stage.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  42. Did Wallace, or anybody, ever push people on numbers for Obamacare??

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  43. Trump Steaks. Promised the greates cuts and highest quality, customer reviews used words like “Greasy” and “Tasteless”. While this means they were aptly named, they weren’t what Trump promised.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  44. Cruz has appeared once, and he is winning this going away so far. Nice.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  45. What was on Cruz’s lip??

    Dana (86e864)

  46. Did Cruz just eat a white fly? Gettin’ froggy wit’ it!

    Colonel Haiku (55bd85)

  47. Tired of rich bastards buying politicians and screwing the little guy? Vote Trump and skip the middle-man!

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  48. Donald Trump is gonna renegotiate my mortgage for me! I’m going to save millions!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  49. (I’m a few minutes behind, until I fast-forward through Kasich again.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  50. If this zzzzz that Kasich is spouting helps him win Ohio, it’s not all bad. Trump simply must not be allowed to win.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  51. Nobody wears white before Memorial Day.

    Megan Kelly is as much a journalist as Lois Lane, Brenda Starr, Miss Polly Purebred, Ted Baxter and Ron Burgundy.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  52. I think that was a fragment of breath mint on Cruz’ lip. Probably to help ward off dry mouth.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  53. Ted’s bringing it.
    Donald supported Jimmy Carter over Ronald Reagan.
    Principles!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  54. Any sentient being who cares about GOP issues and beating HRC and saw that devastating knockout by Cruz just now, and still will vote for him is insane.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  55. I’m watching it but I’m not feeling it.

    Coffee with melted Hershey, and a Jim Dale/Don Knotts western comedy on the other browser.

    nk (dbc370)

  56. Cruz wins the first period of this debate in a walk. Trump gut punched and reeling. Kasich building a great firewall to win Ohio. Marco, unfairly, is seen as an annoying yapping toy dog.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  57. and still will vote for him is insane.

    Which him?

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  58. nk,
    “Hot Lead and Cold Feet.”
    Sometimes that describes the primary process.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  59. 58 – MD The one laying on the floor knocked out. DT.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  60. Trump respects the press and the “process”????

    Dana (86e864)

  61. Beverage: Cherry-limeade flavor generic-brand Crystal Light-knockoff, over ice. But soon: The Glenlivit, straight up with a splash.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  62. $8B spend on the EPA? Trump and the rest missed the fact that the true savings go to the economy and American citizens, through reductions in the oppressive regulations, privately-owned land grabs, etc. wake up!

    Colonel Haiku (55bd85)

  63. How many Rocky Marciano haymakers have to crunch Donald before his supporters wake up?!

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  64. Lion Ted… I like it!

    Colonel Haiku (55bd85)

  65. Take away the slave option, and I bet you can get American workers.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  66. The crowd is getting out of control.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  67. Col. H, that’s exactly what I thought! I’m thinking: Mufasa! Cruz, the Lion King!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  68. Drumpf doesn’t seem to be holding up so well tonight.

    He’ll still get 51% of the Drudge Poll tonight though.

    Dejectedhead (81690d)

  69. Luntz groups said Kasich won the first debate period and Rubio was worst. Unreal. How is this country supposed to have any chance whatsoever to right itself?

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  70. popcorn and soda water

    mg (31009b)

  71. Breaking news– head lice spotted water skiing across Little Marco’s forehead.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  72. Gov. Kasich has a great career future doing the Charlie Brown animation voiceovers for the grown-up voices. “Wah-wah-wah, wah-wah-wah-wah wah.”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  73. If anyone notices jrt for Cruz’s absence… at this very moment, she is lighting candles and saying Hail Marys in church for her main man…

    Colonel Haiku (55bd85)

  74. ropelight, will you volunteer to kill some children of terrorist parents for Trump, when the military refuses?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  75. 70. You are on to the crux of the prob. Congrats.

    DNF (755a85)

  76. Yes, Kasich, You’re old. We get it.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  77. How many votes do the Luntz groups have?

    nk (dbc370)

  78. Thoroughly enjoy Governor Kasich reaffirming a long standing truism to residents of Michigan:

    ‘A Buckeye Is A Useless Nut.’

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  79. Is the Lunz group composed of people from Michigan?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  80. How many bejamins do Lunzes dunces get for being stupid?

    mg (31009b)

  81. No, Beldar, I don’t kill women and children, but I will give you a hefty discount price for shooting all the terrorists in GITMO.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  82. So who’s going to kill the children for Mr. Trump, ropelight, if the military won’t and you won’t?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  83. the guy from Ohio is making me nauseated.

    mg (31009b)

  84. The Palestinians don’t seem to have any qualms about using their own children as suicide bombers. Maybe you can enlist them is your children’s crusade.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  85. There’s a terrible scene, an absolutely true-to-life one, near the beginning IIRC of the fabulous movie “American Sniper,” in which sniper Chris Kyle has to kill a child who’s been wired up with explosives by terrorists, because the alternative is to let the child and Kyle’s fellow Americans be killed when the terrorists detonated the bombs strapped to the child.

    I wept when I watched that, I’m not ashamed to say. Big ole tears down both cheeks, big heaving noisy sobs. I was far from the only one in the theater doing that.

    Your guy wants to kill children for revenge. Still proud of him?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  86. The terrorists who kill children are monsters. So’s Trump, apparently. Are you?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  87. the guy from Ohio needs to be dotted by the sousaphone player of the O.S.U. band.

    mg (31009b)

  88. This is the most brutal takedown of any candidate at any debate by the “neutral” observer moderators. Wow. Double wow.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  89. Via RealClear:

    “This situation demonstrates that the nominating process is really well out of the hands of the party,” veteran Republican lawyer Cleta Mitchell told RCP Tuesday night.

    Citing a series of influences ranging from open primaries to a truncated primary season, Mitchell added, “All of these factors have come together in a harmonic convergence that there is no GOP leadership that can do one thing about this.”

    DNF (755a85)

  90. Could this be the downfall of Trump?

    Dejectedhead (81690d)

  91. And right on cue, the Luntz group is giving Rubio horrendous ratings (in the 20s) on this fantastic and true attack on Trump U. Right there is the problem. Honest to God. That can not be overcome.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  92. Cruz and Rubio are exposing themselves as unworthy of the office they currently hold, much less the one they seek. Rather than rise to the occasion they wallow in the gutter. Shameful performance.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  93. Cruz and Rubio are exposing themselves as unworthy of the office they currently hold, much less the one they seek. Rather than rise to the occasion they wallow in the gutter. Shameful performance.

    ropelight (4bcc7f) — 3/3/2016 @ 7:17 pm

    What was in the gutter?

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  94. Cruz is absolutely DESTROYING Donald Trump.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  95. This is a turnaround. Trump is self-destructing before our eyes.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  96. Massive kudos to Megyn for not going to Kasich to change the course of the Trump U. fraud by going to Kasich. When she finally did, Kasich immediately ended it with his tear-jerking sob story about some lady.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  97. give it a rest ropelight Cruz is kicking booty.

    mg (31009b)

  98. Cue the choir: Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing, Passing from you and from me;
    Shadows are gathering, death-beds are coming, Coming for you and for me!

    Come home! Come hooo-ooo-ooome! Ye who are weary, come hoo-ooo-oooome!

    Ted is the son of a preacher man.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  99. http://www.factcheck.org/2016/03/trumps-defense-of-his-university/

    While it may be true that Trump University received some positive ratings in surveys given to the students while the Seminars were in session or immediately afterward, at this point, many of the students actually still believe that they will eventually get the information and mentoring they need, since they have been promised a one-year apprenticeship or one-year mentorship. Also, these surveys are not anonymous, but have the students’ names on them, and students are often reluctant to criticize the instructors and mentors who they have paid a lot of money to help them throughout the year. It is not until later, when students see that the help and information they need is never coming — that they realize they have been scammed.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  100. Cruz is at his best, tonight.

    nk (dbc370)

  101. Who’s going to kill the children for Trump, ropelight? You want to talk about being down in the gutter. That’s depraved.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  102. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  103. Ted is the son of a preacher man.

    But I, for one, am not holding that against him, Beldar.

    nk (dbc370)

  104. Cruz scored big points on that exchange with the LUntz group.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  105. Are Luntz and the guy from Ohio related?

    mg (31009b)

  106. Some plugs wear blinders.

    mg (31009b)

  107. Detroit! Where’s Mark?

    nk (dbc370)

  108. nk, Ted Cruz will fight for your right to hold it against him if you want to! But I’m glad you don’t. 😉

    Beldar (fa637a)

  109. Enormous sea change in the tone in the debate hall for Cruz. This is the very first time he has been getting enthusiastic response , which builds to a crescendo, as he finishes his answers. Major, major, development.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  110. A GOP Presidential Debate turns to a burning issue facing the nation: cupcakes.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  111. “Cruz and Rubio are exposing themselves as unworthy of the office they currently hold, much less the one they seek. Rather than rise to the occasion they wallow in the gutter. Shameful performance.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)”

    Said without a hint of irony.

    JD (112444)

  112. Ed from SFV @ 108,

    I agree.

    Dana (86e864)

  113. A debate with 4 participants is so much more substantive than when there’s 37 people on stage.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  114. “… to yell fire falsely,” Brett.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  115. Rubio is hoarse. Does it make him sound older?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  116. Oh, my!

    nk (dbc370)

  117. Rubio also looks like he’s sweating. Maybe running a temp, too.

    Dana (86e864)

  118. Rubio sounds like 2-pack a day Boehner.

    mg (31009b)

  119. Nobody wears white before Memorial Day.

    Not if they know what’s good for them, they don’t.

    JVW (9e3c77)

  120. I actually feel for Rubio tonight. He is doing a great service to the country by relentlessly smacking Trump down. He is paying a yooge price, though, in the optics. Luntz Group hates him tonight. He’s not being “presidential.”

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  121. Hey, hey, Donald J! How many kids have you killed today?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  122. Who will drop out next, Rubio or Kasich?

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  123. Rubio’s hoarse because he’s been sick for a few days. But Trump’s been sick his whole life.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  124. Ed, maybe Rubio is running for Cruz’ Veep/hatchet man.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  125. Cruz needs Col. West covering his flank.

    mg (31009b)

  126. Little Marco with his high heels, big ears, and bad rug is also an obnoxious ass – he’s next to bite the dust.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  127. No establishment v.p.

    mg (31009b)

  128. Once again I am choosing not to watch the debate s***show that the GOP nomination has devolved into. But in reading all the comments here, I have a pretty good idea of what is going on. I’m watching a Mexican movie on the Sony Cine channel in Spanish about strippers and cocaine. I don’t speak Spanish well enough to follow, but one of the strippers appears to have a heart of gold and the strip club owner is the cocaine kingpin. There also appears to be a hard-boiled detective trying to crack the drug ring, and a wealthy strip club patron who may know more than he is letting on. I’ll let you decide which role represents which GOP candidate.

    JVW (9e3c77)

  129. Beldar – from the keys of your computer to God’s eyes.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  130. Little Marco with his high heels, big ears, and bad rug is also an obnoxious ass – he’s next to bite the dust.

    The irony of a supporter of Old Whazzizname criticizing another candidate’s hair.

    JVW (9e3c77)

  131. Yup. 22 of 25 Luntz Grop fools say this debate is hurting the GOP chances in the Fall. What does that tell you? It tells me they were mostly Trumpkins and that they are, in their heart of hearts (like most of the electorate) not willing to face some tough times which are necessary.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  132. At least Trump’s hair is his own. He didn’t have to buy it.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  133. I love when Cruz talks missiles.

    mg (31009b)

  134. Trump’s foreign policy is “to get along with the world.”
    (LOL)

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  135. Did a Trumpkin just accuse Rubio of wearing a rug?!?! WTF

    JD (112444)

  136. 126. Me neither, no service.

    The echo chamber is really heavy on the tremolo, IHO.

    DNF (ffe548)

  137. At least Trump’s hair is his own. He didn’t have to buy it.

    Technically, Joe Biden’s hair is probably his own too. And it looks better than your guy’s.

    JVW (9e3c77)

  138. ropelight, do you think Trump favors lethal injection for children under 10? Or is he just going to go straight Old Testament eye-for-an-eye and behead them?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  139. 83. The Palestinians don’t seem to have any qualms about using their own children as suicide bombers. Maybe you can enlist them is your children’s crusade.

    ropelight (4bcc7f) — 3/3/2016 @ 7:08 pm

    Their dance card is already filled, ropelight. Make another pick.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  140. 130. Appropriate gravitas for this tar pit.

    DNF (ffe548)

  141. It does look like Rubio is acting the attack dog for Cruz. Note not one little jab at each other between them.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  142. Does anyone here doubt that Ted Cruz has won this debate?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  143. Look closely, Marco Rubio is wearing a bad rug. The color is slightly off.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  144. “He’s running his country and at least he’s a leader, unlike what we have in this country.” — Trump, who just said he never expressed admiration for Putin.

    Liar.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  145. Trump won this debate, Curz came in 2nd.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  146. more popcorn with Land-o-Lakes butter kosher salt and fresh soda water. Living large.

    mg (31009b)

  147. I expect we’ll have an overdose of sanctimony presently from any of a dozen old fahrts.

    DNF (ffe548)

  148. Pat – Trump was gutted like a fish.

    It seems like Kasich will get many nods as the “winner.”

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  149. 144. Pint of Sam’s Choice Natural Chocolate.

    DNF (ffe548)

  150. Kasich sucking up to be Trump’s Veep. “Sometimes you make it a little hard (grin).” That made my skin crawl.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  151. The guy fromOhio reminds me of Jimmy Carter.

    mg (31009b)

  152. Kasich is a weasel of weasels. Can’t he ever give a straight answer?

    And, yes, Cruz won the debate.

    nk (dbc370)

  153. Here’s a fun story about an Egyptian student at a U.S. aviation school who made an online threat against one of our Presidential candidates and now faces deportation. I mean, why would be freaked out by a young man from a Middle Eastern country enrolled in a flight school who is threatening violence against an American citizen?

    JVW (9e3c77)

  154. Was it his promise to kill children that makes you think Trump won tonight, ropelight?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  155. TKO-Cruz

    mg (31009b)

  156. 140. But will it make a difference? This is America where 99% know Kane Kardashian and 3% had heard of Antonin Scalia.

    DNF (ffe548)

  157. Yup, Drudge Poll currently has Trump “Won the Debate” at 69%

    Dejectedhead (81690d)

  158. Speaking of Scalia…
    my ponderment came to pass, Justice Thomas joined in the verbal arguments of at least one case.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  159. Trump’s wife looks close to tears.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  160. Drudge is becoming another fox news dopers zone.

    mg (31009b)

  161. You folk flatter yourselves that you can appreciate the superior character and word smithery of a Cruz.

    60% of America has no clue what he’s saying.

    DNF (755a85)

  162. 142.“He’s running his country and at least he’s a leader, unlike what we have in this country.” — Trump, who just said he never expressed admiration for Putin.

    Liar.
    Patterico

    I believe you’ve read that incorrectly, Patterico. That’s not admiration for Trump, it’s distain for Obama. I only say that because Putin is a leader while Obama is a divider. Although they are both a-holes.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  163. Wow, Trump seems ticked off at O’Reilly.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  164. She always looks like that, Beldar.

    Would Cruz pick Trump as VP?

    It’s fun to hear Trump say O’Reilly gets carried away with himself. Pot. Kettle.

    DRJ (15874d)

  165. Going forward I think things could get tougher for Trump in the Republican-only primaries.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  166. I’m breaking my arm patting myself on the back, DNF The other hand has the single salute to those 60%.

    mg (31009b)

  167. And there it is…Kasich won Luntz Group 18-6 over Cruz. Trump got 1 vote. Rubio shut out.

    This country is so screwed.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  168. Lunt would make a great piñata.

    mg (31009b)

  169. Is Mrs. Trump always close to tears, or is it some eastern European supermodel thing I’m unacquainted with, DRJ? 😀

    There is no universe in which Ted Cruz would pick Donald Trump for anything but the target defendant in a fraud prosecution.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  170. And there it is…Kasich won Luntz Group 18-6 over Cruz. Trump got 1 vote. Rubio shut out.

    This country is so screwed.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:10 pm

    Recall that after the very first debate a bunch of people in Luntz’s group said they had been supporting Trump but changed their minds.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  171. Beldar, pestering me with your insane nonsense about killing children is sick. You embarrass yourself, I’ve expressed respect for you on several occasions, but your obsessive taunting marks you out as an obnoxious bully.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  172. 164. I really appreciate you friend.

    DNF (755a85)

  173. 170. Back at you. Want to have lunch next time i’m back home?

    mg (31009b)

  174. 169. We all recapitulate “The ages of Man”. Some are obviously well into the denouement.

    DNF (755a85)

  175. 171. Excellent idea!

    DNF (ffe548)

  176. 152.Was it his promise to kill children that makes you think Trump won tonight, ropelight?

    Et tu Beldar? Don’t forget all the murdered puppies. That’ll change their minds! Calling a person pro-baby killing always does.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  177. Is Mrs. Trump always close to tears, or is it some eastern European supermodel thing I’m unacquainted with, DRJ?

    Not to answer on behalf of DRJ, Beldar, but I’ve been to Bratislava where all the Central European supermodels allegedly hang out and I can attest that the put-upon exasperated look is pretty prevalent among that set. I would imagine it’s a defense mechanism to keep riffraff like me far away.

    JVW (9e3c77)

  178. I’ll be back near opener of Walleye season.

    mg (31009b)

  179. If I had to wake up next to Trump every morning, I’d look sad all the time, too.

    nk (dbc370)

  180. If you were married to Donald Trump, wouldn’t you be on the verge of tears?

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  181. I’ll be on the verge of tears, if Trump becomes the nominee.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  182. 176. Well, that will put you closer than home I would think.

    DNF (755a85)

  183. Hoagie, I didn’t hallucinate Trump saying he wants to kill terrorists families.

    And I’m not hallucinating ropelight either.

    Okay, ropelight, would be be more fair for us to talk penis size for a while?

    This is the consequence of supporting a monster: People conclude that you are also a monster.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  184. She frequently has that expression, Beldar, but she also smiles. She’s a beautiful woman and I’m sure she’s used to being stared at.

    DRJ (15874d)

  185. JVW, like that would keep you away, lol.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)

  186. I have been to my share of speaking engagements by many different people, as I’m sure most of you have. If given the chance to see Ted Cruz speak, please do so. Genuine with respect and grace.

    mg (31009b)

  187. 167. Is Mrs. Trump always close to tears, or is it some eastern European supermodel thing I’m unacquainted with, DRJ? 😀

    Beldar (fa637a) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:11 pm

    I don’t know if DRJ has the answer, but I aim to find out. I’ve decided I’m putting a federal grant application together so I can explore the mysteries of the Eastern European supermodel, on the public dime of course. Purely for the purposes of advancing our scientific understanding of them.

    I am, at heart, a philosopher.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  188. 177. “Marry for love” I just told the Verizon gal today as the ex killed the phone# I’ve had for a dozen years.

    DNF (755a85)

  189. Steve, I think you are selfless, willing to give your all to increase knowledge.

    Simon Jester (cd630c)

  190. Lunt would make a great piñata.
    mg (31009b) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:11 pm

    No, no, no! Whack him with a stick and all you get is sh!t.

    Yoda (feee21)

  191. Melania Trump is a stunning woman, but I think her flawlessly smooth appearance has had a little help from Botox. Her face rarely “moves”.

    Dana (86e864)

  192. 181. Its hard developing a winning way with people, we understand.

    DNF (755a85)

  193. Beldar, look in the mirror – that’s your enemy looking back at you. Might also be a good idea to lay off the sauce and get out more. Maybe even get a chick.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  194. Bill O’Reilly says he thinks Trump is honest. He says the same about Dan Rather.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  195. 1. Kasich
    2. Trump
    3. Cruz
    4. Rubio

    High faux pas: Calling this a debate.
    Low faux pas: ‘Big Don’ from ‘Little Marco.’
    Fashion faux pas: Barbie wears white months before Memorial Day.

    Biggest winner of the cycle: Trump. Takes the incoming and keeps on going.
    Biggest loser of the cycle: Mister 47%. Yet another flip-flop- this time with Trump.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  196. Yes, DRJ, she is so used to being looked at, I don’t think she even notices the stir she causes. But give her a decade or two, and she’ll be checking the reaction of her room as soon as she enters. Does she still have it? Aging can be extra difficult for great beauties.

    Dana (86e864)

  197. Mrs. Trump is certainly lovely, and I’ve never walked a step in her high heels, so I’ll try to suppress my instinct to feel terribly, terribly sorry for her.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  198. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    ropelight (4bcc7f) — 3/3/2016 @ 7:20 pm

    You are the poster child for that statement.

    Cruz demolished Trump, with Rubio’s help.

    Of course Trump’s supports don’t care about facts, and being honest, and sticking to your beliefs and actually having beliefs. They support Trump because Trump. Nothing else matters, sadly.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1)

  199. 175. …Not to answer on behalf of DRJ, Beldar, but I’ve been to Bratislava where all the Central European supermodels allegedly hang out and I can attest that the put-upon exasperated look is pretty prevalent among that set. I would imagine it’s a defense mechanism to keep riffraff like me far away.

    JVW (9e3c77) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:20 pm

    Yes, but for research purposes I’ll have one of those GSA credit cards that have no limit on what I can spend on booze, hotel rooms, and wimminz.

    Or are those Secret Service credit cards? Or DEA credit cards?

    No matter; if I tailor my grant application carefully I’ll be able to say, “Hi, ladies. Quit dealing with that Saudi royalty trash. I have the full faith and credit of the United States behind me. Care for a drink?”

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  200. Tipping my hat to you, Yoda.
    laughing.

    mg (31009b)

  201. My enemy — and America’s — was center-stage at the debate tonight, ropelight.

    He’s in favor of murdering children, and you’re in favor of him. Why is it bullying to repeat that? You can stop it in a moment, just by being a human being instead of a Trump robot. Admit that your man is a monster.

    Then if you want to vote for him anyway, we can all take things in that context.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  202. Cruz demolished Trump, with Rubio’s help.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:32 pm

    Rudio was Cruz’s picador. Cruz was the matador.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  203. 187. Steve, I think you are selfless, willing to give your all to increase knowledge.

    Simon Jester (cd630c) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:27 pm

    You know me, SJ. Anything for science.

    I’ll need a good research assistant. Again, I’ll tailor the grant application so they can’t say no.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  204. My ex-wife is a physician. She is the medical director at a string of spas that offer various laser and depilatory services, along with fillers and Botox. Cosmetic medicine is done almost entirely on a cash-for-services basis, with no insurance, no government benefits. It’s the one area of the healthcare market in which quality continues to soar and prices continue to drop precisely because it’s the one are of the healthcare market in which the free market is allowed to act without government coercion and interference and subsidies and penalties.

    You’d think that her business would be down, given where the price of oil sits and that she practices in Houston. But no, her clients/patients would miss a mortgage payment before they’d miss their Botox.

    Despite this, she is a Bernie Sanders fan and supports socialized healthcare.

    I’ll have to ask her opinion about Mrs. Trump, but regardless of how she pulls it off, she’s certainly lovely, and I wish her all the best.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  205. Was there an alliance between Rubio and Cruz??

    Dana (86e864)

  206. @ Dana: Yes, there was an alliance. Was it de facto or de jure? And of what is it the harbinger? That’s what I want to know.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  207. Beldar, look in the mirror – that’s your enemy looking back at you. Might also be a good idea to lay off the sauce and get out more. Maybe even get a chick.

    All right. Enough.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  208. @ #8, Beldar;

    Mea culpa on my math. I was under the mistaken impression that most of the states after March 15th were proportional. This is not the case.

    However, I still think that if Trump wins this weekend, and then Florida and Ohio, it’ll be hard for any other candidate to get to 1237, due to having to win a much higher proportion than Trump of the remaining delegates. They’d need to run the table.

    Arizona CJ (da673d)

  209. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
    ropelight (4bcc7f) — 3/3/2016 @ 7:20 pm

    Said by a Trump supporter. Irony is not dead. Better go vote on the Drudge poll again.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  210. Well it’s more in the context of how the Algerians handled their insurgency, in such a way they were able to lecture the Iraqis and the Syrians.

    narciso (732bc0)

  211. 199 Random Numbers – Brilliant metaphor.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  212. Trump won this debate, Curz came in 2nd.
    ropelight (4bcc7f) — 3/3/2016 @ 7:55 pm

    I rest my case.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  213. Roger that Patterico.

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  214. @ Arizona CJ (#205), yup, you’re right. That’s why I wish Rubio would have his epiphany this week. Every week that it’s still a divided field gets us closer to the point of no return.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  215. We can’t do waterboarding because those memos that were leaked, which will cold comfort when lax or the library tower is hit. Because aq always gets their target’s.

    narciso (732bc0)

  216. If as many people drank Trump Vodka as who vote for Trump on the Drudge Poll, it wouldn’t have failed as a business venture. Then again, maybe they have been drinking the vodka.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  217. One salutary side effect from tonight is that O’Reilly is exposing himself as the immoral opportunist he really is. Bernie Goldberg absolutely nailed him by challenging him as to why he blithely dismisses Trumpa alluding to his penis in this forum when O’Reilly is constantly bemoaning the coarsening of the culture and pretends to stand as a bulwark for the innocent children. Bernie was having none of it.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  218. Here’s the early Drudge Poll results:

    TRUMP 68.36% (63,504 votes)

    CRUZ 18.77% (17,438 votes)

    KASICH 8.09% (7,518 votes)

    RUBIO 4.78% (4,437 votes)

    Total Votes: 92,897

    ropelight (4bcc7f)

  219. O’Reilly bemoans the coarsening of American culture except when it benefits O’Reilly’s ratings.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  220. Here’s the mg poll results:
    Cruz 90%
    Rubio 4%
    Trump 3%
    the guy from Ohio 3%

    mg (31009b)

  221. I do wish I could afford O’Reilly’s tailor.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  222. Well loofa boy is a hack what else is new,

    narciso (732bc0)

  223. Selling factor gear, along with defaming Reagan.

    narciso (732bc0)

  224. 213. If as many people drank Trump Vodka as who vote for Trump on the Drudge Poll, it wouldn’t have failed as a business venture. Then again, maybe they have been drinking the vodka.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/3/2016 @ 8:53 pm

    I’m sorry. I burned by Trump steaks because I couldn’t stop reading Trump magazine, as I just got back from visiting my future home in TRUMP TOWER TAMPA BAY!!! Score! The best news is, Trump Mortgage is giving me a schweet deal and as a bonus I get two free tickets on the Trump Shuttle to NYC.

    So I was kind of distracted, which is why I set off the smoke alarm.

    Did I miss anything?

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  225. Steve57, while you were tending to your Trump ventures, we’ve learned that too many Americans have been drinking Trump Kool-Aid. (LOL)

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  226. Cruz speaks so well about the 2 amend. It is a gold medal issue if he wants.

    mg (31009b)

  227. Nah, Trump supporters don’t drink Kool Aid. They can’t figure out how to get two quarts of water into that little packet.

    nk (dbc370)

  228. Maybe if there was a Trump AK and and Trump brand 7.62x39mm ammo I could vote for this guy.

    I might even be persuaded to buy super-Liberace elite gold leaf edition of the Wold-Class Trump ultra-lux AK, given sufficient financial incentives.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  229. Rubio gave the most straightforward, less lawyerly, answers on the Constitutional questions. On abortion, too, in the last debate. No nuance, no flexibility.

    nk (dbc370)

  230. Watching the Luntz Group on Megyn’s show is infuriating.

    They are just butthurt that they are being commanded to think. It’s hard to admit they could be so wrong about Trump (half of them came in supporting him). So, they fall back on the messy business of tearing down lies which they wanted to believe as being “disgusting.”

    This is what Cruz, and we, are up against. The sheeple simply do not want to have to consider the harsh truths in our country and our politics. They’ve been well-trained in government schools that it is most desirable to not engage; to not dwell in the meaning of words and actions. The progressives have won the culture.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  231. I’ve had an AK. It gave me patterns instead of groups. Get an Armalite. They make them up to .308 now.

    nk (dbc370)

  232. CS @222, there you go. The crux of the issue. I only drink prison-grade pruno these days. I gave you the damn recipe @31.

    Venting it into the shampoo is key. If the guards smell it fermenting you are so royally screwed.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  233. 68% oh my.

    See if this looks familiar.
    1. Everyone agrees Cruz had a great debate and Trump was awful.
    2. It’s over for Trump; he has plateaued.
    3. Trump wins three more primaries.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  234. nk @228, but we’re talking Trump here.

    You want AR-15 quality we’ll have to start talking Koch brothers.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  235. Goldberg got the vapors because trump clarified rubio’s June.

    narciso (732bc0)

  236. No, that’s not it’s the policies we are sold with certitude take the tpp, turn out to be wrong.

    It takes a plain spoken judge hanen, kept off the court for a decade to do what our sums was unwilling to do

    narciso (732bc0)

  237. Or speaking of the nuclear triad, the fools who signed on to new start, how did that work out again

    narciso (732bc0)

  238. I recall then major allennwest threatened an insurgent and he have up an arms cache, they courtmartialed himfor that, but that was out of the box thinking.

    narciso (732bc0)

  239. Maybe if there was a Trump AK and and Trump brand 7.62x39mm ammo I could vote for this guy.

    The Trump AK flies apart if you use any ammo but the Trump ammo, which is all primer, no powder.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  240. @237, but, but, even the Super-Liberace elite gold leaf edition of the Trump AK?!?!

    This is too much for me to handle. I’ll have to escape to my fine prison wine and symphony.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbzjC0O3H9k&ebc=ANyPxKrF_6W47ONOt_vO0Uh3bEdW0G85T-6aPow4ruw5b9x48PwXKeVxin9NX4SumY_mIMYSo15-r1CQaHVgwbCCS-dxvZ6iiQ

    Johnny Law and the 53

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  241. The bit I was able to watch, Cruz – and to a lesser extent, Rubio – impressed me. Trump was cut badly, on the ropes and fell back on the same, tired, old asshattery he’s employed so often.

    But that doesn’t seem to faze his fans even a tiny bit.

    Colonel Haiku (741b4a)

  242. Col. H, Jonathan Last at the Weekly Standard also had the Lion Ted reaction you & I did.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  243. Coronello, Trump gives the middle finger to the right people. That counts for a lot.

    Now, whether he means it, or whether he’s one of the people who should be shown the middle finger, is another thing.

    But Trump knows how to make a sales pitch.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  244. Just now:

    SH: Last question. This is now, what, the eleventh debate that you guys have had. Were you happy with the Fox debate tonight? Are you happy with the debate process? Do you think they’re becoming repetitive? Do you think that maybe they have run its [sic] course, or do you want to keep doing it?

    DT: I thought the moderators did a very good job. I was very happy with the way I performed. Uh, I think that now it’s getting so repetitive, it’s ridiculous. I just don’t think we need any more debates. I guess we’re saddled up [sic] with one more.

    So no tax returns. No NYT tapes. No more debates.

    It’s March before the November election, and Trump already wants to go to the mattresses.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  245. Nah, Trump supporters don’t drink Kool Aid. They can’t figure out how to get two quarts of water into that little packet.

    nk (dbc370) — 3/3/2016 @ 9:16 pm

    Winner!

    Matador (bcf600)

  246. ^^^ Sorry, SH=Sean Hannity.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  247. But Trump knows how to make a sales pitch.

    Steve57 (1ace39) — 3/3/2016 @ 10:16 pm

    And just like that, the movie Used Cars pops into mind.

    Bill H (dcdd7b)

  248. Beldar, Cruz campaign ought to run with that… something along the lines of that tattooed, smoking, hip poster that was done. Steve… Trump does, and there’s something that is likable about his devil-may-care approach, but also something very repellent, as well. There’s an extreme recklessness that isn’t admirable in a man upon whom so many will count. Pretty goddam dangerous.

    Colonel Haiku (741b4a)

  249. I wish we could conduct an experiment where we had Donald Trump come into a debate stinking drunk, vomiting on Rubio and ultimately passing out 20 minutes in, left on stage while everyone else finished the debate by discussing issues.

    I think he would still win the Drudge poll.

    Patterico (98c6ca)

  250. Trump’s stone-cold insistence that the military will follow his orders — even if the order is a war crime — is the most chilling thing I’ve heard since …

    Well, since Trump insisted that we should kill the families of terrorists, just a couple of minutes earlier.

    I thought the KKKerfluffle would be a spectacular club for the Dems to beat Trump over the head with, but wow, my mind just continues to reel at the notion that any public figure could take such a monstrous position without being shunned by all of America.

    Before, when the Dems have claimed that the GOP wants to murder children, they were lying. Now Trump wants to give them total validation.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  251. Or did I dream that whole part of the debate?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  252. I keep expecting that I’ll be in the shower, soaping up, and the door will open, and it will be Bobby Ewing … coming to explain that I’ve been in a reality TV series for the last 18 months or so, one of those things like that Jim Carey movie, “The Truman Show,” and Donald Trump is really still just on “Celebrity Apprentice.”

    This is surreal.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  253. I just had a chance to watch the tape. Wow! Not only was Cruz good, he knew he was good and it showed in his demeanor. Tonight, he owned Donald Trump.

    The only polls I care about right now are this Saturday’s primary/caucus votes in the closed primary states of Kentucky, Kansas, and Maine. My guess is that crossover Dems have been carrying major water for the Donald. Just ask your self, if you were a moderate Democrat, as many Southern Democrats are, wouldn’t you be looking for an alternative to Hill and Bern? On Saturday, we’ll see if closing the primary to Dems dries up support for Trump.

    ThOR (a52560)

  254. I did not dream it. Trump not only adhered to his previous position about killing the families of terrorists, he defended it fiercely — and monstrously:

    BAIER: Mr. Trump, just yesterday, almost 100 foreign policy experts signed on to an open letter refusing to support you, saying your embracing expansive use of torture is inexcusable. General Michael Hayden, former CIA director, NSA director, and other experts have said that when you asked the U.S. military to carry out some of your campaign promises, specifically targeting terrorists’ families, and also the use of interrogation methods more extreme than waterboarding, the military will refuse because they’ve been trained to turn down and refuse illegal orders.

    So what would you do, as commander-in-chief, if the U.S. military refused to carry out those orders?

    TRUMP: They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse me. Believe me.

    BAIER: But they’re illegal.

    TRUMP: Let me just tell you, you look at the Middle East. They’re chopping off heads. They’re chopping off the heads of Christians and anybody else that happens to be in the way. They’re drowning people in steel cages. And he — now we’re talking about waterboarding.

    This really started with Ted, a question was asked of Ted last — two debates ago about waterboarding. And Ted was, you know, having a hard time with that question, to be totally honest with you. They then came to me, what do you think of waterboarding? I said it’s fine. And if we want to go stronger, I’d go stronger, too, because, frankly…

    (APPLAUSE)

    … that’s the way I feel. Can you imagine — can you imagine these people, these animals over in the Middle East, that chop off heads, sitting around talking and seeing that we’re having a hard problem with waterboarding? We should go for waterboarding and we should go tougher than waterboarding. That’s my opinion.

    BAIER: But targeting terrorists’ families?

    (APPLAUSE)

    TRUMP: And — and — and — I’m a leader. I’m a leader. I’ve always been a leader. I’ve never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they’re going to do it. That’s what leadership is all about.

    BAIER: Even targeting terrorists’ families?

    TRUMP: Well, look, you know, when a family flies into the World Trade Center, a man flies into the World Trade Center, and his family gets sent back to where they were going — and I think most of you know where they went — and, by the way, it wasn’t Iraq — but they went back to a certain territory, they knew what was happening. The wife knew exactly what was happening.

    They left two days early, with respect to the World Trade Center, and they went back to where they went, and they watched their husband on television flying into the World Trade Center, flying into the Pentagon, and probably trying to fly into the White House, except we had some very, very brave souls on that third plane. All right?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  255. They’ve been well-trained in government schools that it is most desirable to not engage; to not dwell in the meaning of words and actions.

    Can we send them all on vacation trips by rocket to Venus?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  256. I think he would still win the Drudge poll.

    I think he’d have won the Drudge poll if it had been run on Wednesday.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  257. BTW, since absolutely none of the 9-11 hijackers had family in America — some of the bin Laden construction company people were here, and were spirited out afterwards — I’m surprised that no one called BS on this. It has been repeatedly debunked and is right up there with the rest of the Truther crap. But crickets.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  258. I’m catching up on some DVR’d post-debate coverage from CNN.

    Patterico, your favorite, Dana Bash, was interviewing Mr. & Mrs. Trump at the debate site, and yes, she went there — she asked them both about Trump’s penis reference. He denied that he was talking about anything but his hands; you knew that was coming, didn’t you? And then Bash asked Mrs. Trump what she thought about that moment. Mrs. Trump shot her husband this very quick panicked look, then turned and smiled bravely at the camera and said, “I thought it was great! He was attacked, and he attacked back.”

    Later, they were interviewing a focus group in Grand Rapids, MI, at the Republican County HQ there — Gerald Ford’s hometown. They were quite a bit different than the Detroit Republicans whom Lunz interviewed on Fox, which seemed packed with committed Trump fans. This group was very skeptical of Trump, and said they were voting for either Kasich or Cruz. Asked whether they’d consider not voting in the general election if Trump were the nominee, about half of the 40 or so in the room raised their hands. Asked if they’d consider voting for the Democratic nominee, six people raised their hands.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  259. 224. nk -Applause.

    mg (31009b)

  260. 234. Like it. And the colors in the South will be filled in, LA, MS and FL all go Trump.

    Number one concern of the hoi polloi? The economy, their jobs, entitlements, investments, what have you.

    All night did anyone here address them?

    Where on the map are you looking to roll up states? That broad swathe UT, NE, SD?

    “Leaning together, their heads stuffed with straw” W.H.Auden

    DNF (755a85)

  261. 256. And Trump has a big lead in MI the next big prize. I have worked in Grand Rapids at their Telco. Nice, retiring people.

    DNF (755a85)

  262. Our own tech firm in town is being courted by a Chinese company of a provenance unknown to me.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-28/second-tech-bubble-has-burst-and-here-come-mass-layoffs

    The Chinese are in a mad rush to get their gains in dollars out of the country, a craftsman just sold in Vancouver for $750K over asking.

    These issues are not on your orthodox Republicans’ radar. Why the ‘eff not?

    DNF (755a85)

  263. @beldar. I really have no sympathies for terrorists’ families who know what there husbands or spouse or child is doing. They are all guilty and should suffer the consequences. You see the world has changed and we cannot afford to be constrained by the old rules of engagement. These people are evil and must be destroyed. I can sleep easy with the collateral damages that follow. It’s war.

    The Emperor (7da220)

  264. Someone needs to fact check that goon Kasich and shut him down.

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  265. I’ll be here all week. Don’t forget to pinch your waitress.

    nk (dbc370)

  266. Tip! Tip your waitress.

    nk (dbc370)

  267. Kellyann Conway is one of the most compelling articulate Ted Cruz supporters.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/26/kellyanne-conway-ted-cruz-will-win-texas/

    She was on Breightbart News this morning and her analysis of the process and why Cruz must go head to head with Trump….. Rubio and goofy Kasich need to step aside. If the party is split Hillary who cannot win will win.

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  268. keepthepromise.com

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  269. This morning’s Drudge Poll results:

    **DRUDGE POLL** WHO WON THE 11TH REPUBLICAN DEBATE ’16?

    TRUMP 56.87% (214,711 votes)

    CRUZ 24.63% (92,996 votes)

    KASICH 13.55% (51,178 votes)

    RUBIO 4.95% (18,691 votes)

    Total Votes: 377,576

    ropelight (6354c4)

  270. They will never, ever vote for Trump,

    http://www.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2016-03/196180_5_.jpg

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  271. Then Hillary will be President of the United States of America, and the GOP establishment will have betrayed the nation and every principle they have claimed to uphold.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  272. 29.Oh, shut up, Kasich.
    Patterico (86c8ed
    …………………..

    If only someone could get through to lurch/Kasich that be is annoying and most don’t care about his experience. He doesn’t represent well IMO. If this is all Ohio has to offer…. not good.

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  273. Ropelight – we get it. Trump and the Trumpkins heart meaningless polls.

    JD (34f761)

  274. Levin was on fire last night. Good show… I know he checks this site as he seems to follow its leads periodically….. Mark, get your thyroid checked. As a concerned listener. Sometimes it can cause your voice to cut off when you are speaking for long periods.

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  275. How would the GOP be betraying principles if they supported Trump who has no principles?

    JD (34f761)

  276. The only way to eliminate Trump at this point Kasich and Rubio freaks, is to support Cruz!

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  277. There’s something happening here and you don’t know what it is, do you JD?

    ropelight (6354c4)

  278. Yes, you are supporting an angry populist authoritarian. Last night he promised to murder women and children and it got you and Chimperor all tingly.

    JD (34f761)

  279. I’m a conservative and I wouldn’t vote for Trump in million years.

    “Singer Miley Cyrus cried when Trump won Superdelegate Tuesday. ‘If this man becomes president, I’m moving to Canada!'”

    Ok, I’m considering voting for Trump.

    CrustyB (d4da92)

  280. Like they’d have her. But it’s the thought that counts. It’s nice of her to cheer us up like that.

    nk (dbc370)

  281. Last night he promised to murder women and children and it got you and Chimperor all tingly.

    Who promised to murder women and children and why?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  282. 275. There’s something happening here and you don’t know what it is, do you JD?

    ropelight (6354c4) — 3/4/2016 @ 6:10 am

    Yes, we do. There’s no principle or core belief you won’t betray. Apparently the liberals were right about you all along. You really didn’t have a principled objection to their policies. You were just opposed to who was proposing them.

    Now you’re trying to make the choice between a lying leftist opportunistic authoritarian New York sleazeball businessman and a lying leftist opportunistic authoritarian New York sleazeball politician into some sort of loyalty test.

    Loyal to what?

    As for me I’ll remain loyal to the Constitution and my principles.

    You go ahead and betray both. If the country goes down it’s going to be because of you. You explain to your grandkids, when they look around at the ruins, why you sold out.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  283. I’m suspecting that I’m on to something.

    ropelight, you’ve mentioned that you live in SW Florida. About how long a drive is that from Melania’s house?

    nk (dbc370)

  284. Well that Saudi financier in tampa, who managed money for one of the princes given by zubeydah, and some of his relative’s to died of thirst or mysterious accidents.

    narciso (732bc0)

  285. Hoagie,
    Trump said families of terrorists were fair game, that we needed to be more intimidating and fight them on their own terms (my words)
    And that since he is a leader, the military would follow his orders, whether they were legal or not.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  286. I hate to point it out but last night all four candidates vowed to support the eventual winner. That means Cruz, Rubio and Kasich all vowed their support of ” a lying leftist opportunistic authoritarian New York sleazeball businessman” should he win. Does that mean they are not loyal to the Constitution and their principles and when the country goes down it’s because of them? Should Cruz, Rubio and Kasich prepare to explain to their grandkids why they sold out? Or are the three of them just dirty, filthy liars trying to get elected?

    Maybe they believe the Republican Party is bigger than one man and that the Republican Party in power is the goal understanding Hillary! is an abomination.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  287. Leaning together, their heads stuffed with straw” W.H.Auden

    – DNF

    That’s T.S. Eliot, yo.

    Leviticus (d6b052)

  288. “Shock Poll: Donald Trump Earns More Muslim Support Than Rest of GOP Field Combined”

    The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)–an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terror financing trial, and a designated terror organization in the United Arab Emirates–conducted a poll of 2000 Muslim voters throughout six Super Tuesday states. The results, released Wednesday, were surprising.

    While Democrats Hillary Clinton and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) earned 46% and 25% support, respectively, Donald Trump has the support of 11% of Muslims, more than the rest of the GOP field combined.

    Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) comes in second with 4%, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX)vwins 2%, John Kasich just 1%.

    http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/03/shock-poll-donald-trump-earns-more-muslim-support-than-rest-of-gop-field-combined/

    just another demographic that trump wins decisively…no big deal right…nothing to see here…move along…

    sound awake (4f316e)

  289. Hoagie – he’s no Republican. It is merely a vessel for his egomania. The lack of principles by those that value party or principle have enabled this narcissism and nihilism.

    JD (112444)

  290. Up until now destroying the bill of rights in detail and shredding the Constituion in general was an entirely leftist project. Donald Trump wants to make it a bipartisan effort. And ropelight? As far as he’s concerned it’s not a problem.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/06/democrats-struggle-with-how-to-ban-free-speech.php

    …The Democrats are happy to take their chances with federal judges, pretty much all of whom will be nominated by Democratic presidents once tens of millions of new immigrants, legal and illegal, are given the vote. It isn’t hard to see where this will go: the First Amendment says, in ringing, uncompromising terms, that “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

    But Democrats hate competition, so they want to rewrite the amendment to give all power to incumbents (i.e., them): Congress may make any law it pleases, abridging the freedom of speech and of the press and the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, insofar as those rights are exercised in connection with elections to public office, as long as Congress’s limitations on freedom of speech and freedom of the press are deemed reasonable by judges, all of whose appointments must be confirmed by Congress.

    That is not, obviously, the charter of a free people. Which is what the Democrats want: they have sworn eternal hostility against every limitation on government’s tyranny over the mind of man.

    The Donald, on the other hand, hates the fact he can’t sue people into bankruptcy for damaging the Trump “brand.” He hates the fact that criticizing him isn’t some sort of crime.

    http://overlawyered.com/2016/02/trump-libel-law/

    But although Trump is unlikely to obtain the exact set of changes he outlines, the outburst is psychologically revealing. Donald Trump has been filing and threatening lawsuits to shut up critics and adversaries over the whole course of his career. He dragged reporter Tim O’Brien through years of litigation over a relatively favorable Trump biography that assigned a lower valuation to his net worth than he thought it should have. He sued the Chicago Tribune’s architecture critic over a piece arguing that a planned Trump skyscraper in lower Manhattan would be “one of the silliest things” that could be built in the city. He used the threat of litigation to get an investment firm to fire an analyst who correctly predicted that the Taj Mahal casino would not be a financial success. He sued comedian Bill Maher over a joke.

    There’s your blue collar hero, ropelight. He’s going to bring back jobs? No, he costs people their jobs when they p’ him off no matter how far down the food chain.

    …And Ilya Somin cites further elements forming a pattern: Trump has expressed his wish to “have the FCC take some of his critics off the airwaves” and his regret that protesters at his events could not be dealt with in such a way that they “have to be carried out on a stretcher.” He also writes that should Trump proceed to appoint judges who strongly share his view of libel law, those judges “are unlikely to effectively protect other important speech rights and civil liberties.”…

    As a military retiree subject to recall I plan on remaining true to my oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

    So you go ahead without me, ropelight and the rest of you Trumpsters. You help the Democrats turn the Constitution into a dead letter. I want no part of it.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  291. Trump said families of terrorists were fair game,

    And somehow that translates into a promise to murder women and children? Who says stuff like that other than a Ivy League educated liberal?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  292. 287.Hoagie – he’s no Republican. It is merely a vessel for his egomania. The lack of principles by those that value party or principle have enabled this narcissism and nihilism.
    JD (112444)

    Sorry JD, you don’t have the authority to say who is or isn’t a Republican. He says he is, he’s running on the Republican ticket and the party has not disavowed him so all the evidence points to his being a Republican. You may not like it. He may not be the type of Republican either of us want but nonetheless he is one.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  293. Yes it’s overwrought, but a stone strike that takes out a whole village and somehow missed the target, more of that.

    narciso (732bc0)

  294. 284. …Maybe they believe the Republican Party is bigger than one man and that the Republican Party in power is the goal understanding Hillary! is an abomination.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27) — 3/4/2016 @ 6:57 am

    Maybe I believe the Constitution is more important than any political party.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  295. Hoagie,
    He was given the opportunity to clarify and he doubled down on the military doing illegal things because he told them to. That is not an exact quote, but close, I’m not putting words in his mouth.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  296. Give it up Hoagie, save yourself. Even though you support Cruz, the mad dogs here will go after you every bit as viciously as they attack me and the Tiger if you keep trying to make them see that hatred has blinded them to the obvious reality that most Republican and Conservative voters prefer Donald Trump.

    It’s called democracy and they know better. They’re willing to twist Trump’s words (go after the families of terrorists) into baby killing. Saddam’s sons were grown men, so were Osama bin Ladin’s son grown men. Did the Trump haters ever give it a minute’s thought that these family members were themselves either terrorists or supported terrorists? No, they went straight for the lowest, dirtiest, blood libel they could conger up and then repeatedly tried to smear me with it. Beldar was the worst.

    So, avoid my fate and hold your powder till after March 15th when the fat lady sings.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  297. How could this have happened? A more scripturally, spiritually flawed man than Trump would be hard to find. As several anti-Trump evangelical voices have argued, Christian witness cannot possibly support a thrice-married man with such an impressive list of sins, featuring especially spectacular displays of the seven deadlys.

    These theological arguments are both eloquent and impassioned but, in this season of fear and anxiety, beside the point. This time around, evangelicals are not looking for someone like them. They’re looking for someone who will protect them.

    They’ve tried backing exemplary Scripture-quoting Christians — without result. After Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum and considerations of Cruz himself, they are increasingly reluctant to support like-minded candidates who are nonetheless incapable of advancing their cause in a hostile political arena so dominated by secularism.

    They have no illusions about Trump. They have no expectations of religious uplift. What he offers them is not spirit but “muscle” (to borrow a word from the notorious former Professor Melissa Click of the University of Missouri).

    The transaction was illuminated by Trump’s January speech at Liberty University. His earlier halfhearted attempts to pose as a fellow evangelical were amusing and entirely unconvincing. At Liberty, he made another such I’m-one-of-you gesture by citing a biblical verse in “Two Corinthians,” thereby betraying a risible lack of familiarity with biblical language and usage.

    Yet elsewhere in the speech, he described how Christians abroad are being massacred and Christians here at home are under cultural and political siege. He pledged: “We’re going to protect Christianity.”

    Interesting locution. Not just Christians, but Christianity itself. What Trump promises is to stand outside the churchyard gates and protect the faithful inside. He’s the Roman centurion standing between them and both barbarians abroad and aggressive secularists at home.

    The message is clear: I may not be one of you. I can’t recite or even correctly cite Scripture. But I will patrol the borders of Christendom on your behalf. After all, who do you want out there — a choir boy or a tough guy with a loaded gun and a kick-ass demeanor?

    Evangelicals answered resoundingly. They went for Trump in a rout.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/charles-krauthammer-trump-defender-faith-article-1.2552111

    sound awake (4f316e)

  298. Trump specifically was talking about families of terrorists here in the US, as though they would be treated as coconspirators and equally guilty and subject to targeting.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  299. “Maybe I believe the Constitution is more important than any political party.”
    Steve57 (1ace39) — 3/4/2016 @ 7:12 am

    Careful, Steve57, you may be turning into an Independant.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  300. I can only talk for the people of Christian faith that I know,
    We are not for Trump,
    Broken record warning:
    Watch what a person does and has done, not what they say.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  301. Maybe I believe the Constitution is more important than any political party.

    I agree with all my heart Steve57. That’s why it is more important to me to make sure a leftist socialist grifter or a old commie are not in the White House than having Trump there. Putting a democrat/socialist in the White House is not defending the Constitution. It’s ensuring a democrat majority forever as they import their future voters by the millions.

    Trump is still the lesser of the evils.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  302. “Mitt Romney did Donald Trump a BIG favor by attacking him”

    This, you might think to yourself, is, finally, the moment when the establishment — such as it is — stands up to Trump, screaming “enough” at the top of its lungs and, in so doing, bringing the party back from the brink of an total electoral disaster.

    You would be, almost certainly, totally wrong. In fact, being attacked by Romney is more likely to cement Trump’s hold on the nomination than loosen his grip on it. Here’s why.

    Romney is the face of the establishment. He’s just the sort of guy the party loves — a measured statesman who views running for office as a civic duty. He’s “serious.” He has “gravitas.” He is “trustworthy” and “steady.”

    He’s also the embodiment of everything Trump has built his entire campaign against. Romney is too cautious, too mannerly, not tough enough for Trump’s taste. He’s the face of a Republican Party that lost twice to Barack Obama. He’s part of the problem, not the solution.

    Rather than undercut Trump, Romney’s attacks bolster him. And Trump knows it — going all in against Romney in an interview on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” on Thursday.

    “He was a disaster,” Trump said of Romney. “He ran one of the worst campaigns in presidential history. That was an election that should have been won by Republicans.” Trump also noted that Romney “begged me for my endorsement four years ago” — an endorsement he eventually gave…

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/03/mitt-romney-is-attacking-donald-trump-as-a-phony-and-a-fraud-thats-great-news-for-trump/

    sound awake (4f316e)

  303. That’s an interesting oath you took there, Steve57. Must have been different than mine. I don’t remember the “if I don’t like the President and think he is acting un-Constitutionally I don’t have to obey him” clause. I also don’t remember the “I alone get to be the arbiter of what is Constitutional” clause, either.

    And it is funny how waterboarding is so evil, yet I was waterboarded along with every other combat aircrew, Force Recon, and their medics. Those who sit in air-conditioned comfort while better men do the ugly work of the military should be reticent when opining about such matters.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  304. Sure, wrap yourself in the Constitution, stand tall, click your heels, and give that steely square jawed stare, then explain why you ignore the natural born citizen limitation on presidential eligibility while your feet of clay dissolve into pretense and bluster.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  305. Hoagie – don’t take my word for it. Go watch what he said. He vowed to force the military to follow his illegal orders because he is a leader or something. Ropelight and the rest of you want to poo poo what he said, but it was vile, and perfectly exemplified the authoritarianism he markets.

    JD (112444)

  306. Broken Birther record. Conspiracy theorists are so cute.

    JD (112444)

  307. #302 was directed at Steve. I type too slowly to omit a salutation.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  308. You tell me JD, if a terrorist is willing to die in order to kill others, how can you stop him other than retaliating against someone he doesn’t want to be responsible for harming.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  309. Standing tall with the Constitution is far more important than standing tall with a political party, or even worse, a fraudulent egomaniacal politician.

    JD (112444)

  310. “Koch brothers: Spending money against Trump would be a waste”

    The Koch brothers, the most powerful conservative mega donors in the United States, will not use their $400 million political arsenal to try to block Republican front-runner Donald Trump’s path to the presidential nomination, a spokesman told Reuters on Wednesday.

    The decision by the billionaire industrialists is another setback to Republican establishment efforts to derail the New York real estate mogul’s bid for the White House, and follows speculation the Kochs would soon launch a “Trump Intervention.”

    “We have no plans to get involved in the primary,” said James Davis, spokesman for Freedom Partners, the Koch brothers’ political umbrella group. He would not elaborate on what the brothers’ strategy would be for the Nov. 8 election to succeed Democratic President Barack Obama.

    Three sources close to the Kochs said the brothers made the decision because they were concerned that spending millions of dollars attacking Trump would be money wasted, since they had not yet seen any attack on Trump stick…

    http://nypost.com/2016/03/03/koch-brothers-spending-money-against-trump-would-be-a-waste/

    sound awake (4f316e)

  311. #307, says JD as he stands with the GOP establishment against the majority of Republican and Conservative voters.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  312. at the time, back in December, trump was speaking about collateral damage, however you have the example of the st. denis cell, where the ‘liberated’ sibling of Abbaoud, blew her self if you recall, or take the black widows, riyadh al salih, of chechnya, and increasingly syria,

    narciso (732bc0)

  313. “Rupert Murdoch: Republican Party ‘Would Be Mad Not To Unify’ Behind Donald Trump If He Is Nominee”

    NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — Rupert Murdoch believes the Republican Party needs to unify behind Donald Trump if it becomes a foregone conclusion that he will be the GOP presidential nominee.

    “As predicted, Trump reaching out to make peace with Republican ‘establishment,’” the News Corp chairman tweeted Wednesday. “If he becomes inevitable party would be mad not to unify.”

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/03/02/rupert-murdoch-donald-trump/

    sound awake (4f316e)

  314. 296.Trump specifically was talking about families of terrorists here in the US, as though they would be treated as coconspirators and equally guilty and subject to targeting.

    What are you talking about, MD in Philly? Are you saying Trump wants to send in a F-22 to bomb North Philly if a terrorists family lives there? You mean like Mayor Goode, a black democrat, did when he blew up Osage Ave. in the 70’s? I don’t think Trump wants to do that.

    BTW, families of terrorists should be treated like co-conspirators since most of the time they are.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  315. “Koch brothers: Spending money against Trump would be a waste”

    Because the fix is on its way.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  316. romney certainly didn’t command the majority of votes, in the primaries last time, he was just the last man standing after he moab’d newt and santorum,

    http://www.thediplomad.com/2016/03/romney-joins-pope-in-endorsing-trump.html

    narciso (732bc0)

  317. 294. Give it up Hoagie, save yourself. Even though you support Cruz, the mad dogs here will go after you every bit as viciously as they attack me and the Tiger if you keep trying to make them see that hatred has blinded them to the obvious reality that most Republican and Conservative voters prefer Donald Trump.

    …So, avoid my fate and hold your powder till after March 15th when the fat lady sings.

    ropelight (6354c4) — 3/4/2016 @ 7:17 am

    I don’t hate, ropelight. I see that you’re the one who is blinded.

    Conservatives don’t prefer Trump. Conservatives have bedrock principles. Trump has no principles, and consequently neither can anyone who supports him.

    He may well win. But when Clinton was President I used to point and laugh at his supporters because to support a Clinton meant they had to belly crawl through every sewer and gutter the Clintons led them through.

    And you’re signing up to do the same. I’m not going down that sewer with you. How are you going to explain to your grandkids that you voted to send the United States into a sewer?

    I’ll be here to point and laugh, ropelight. The GOP establishment has against our will served up some pretty nasty, steaming s*** sandwiches before. We voted for Pastrami, and we got s***.

    But you’re special ordering this one, of your own free will. You are voting for a s*** sandwich. And you may very well get the government you deserve. But no me, bruddah.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  318. “says JD as he stands with the GOP establishment against the majority of Republican and Conservative voters.”

    – ropelight

    Please. You’ve lost any right to identify with “conservative voters.” Stick to faux-pragmatism about “winning.”

    Il Douche/Charlie Sheen 2016

    Leviticus (efada1)

  319. 307.Standing tall with the Constitution is far more important than standing tall with a political party, or even worse, a fraudulent egomaniacal politician.

    Aren’t you just wonderful, JD? I hate to tell you but if the commie democrats win they’ll be wiping their butts with the Constitution. But don’t worry, when they come to get you and your family you can tellthem how you didn’t vote for Trump.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  320. Please. You’ve lost any right to identify with “conservative voters.”

    And you’ve lost any right to identify with “conservative voters” when you cite such conservative voices as the NYT and John Oliver as insightful political/social commentary and view Romney’s opinions as relevant.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  321. I finally cracked the code. I figured out who ropelight is in real life.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OSyq6CQNOYM/TuPCOp9ySQI/AAAAAAAAGpU/ZmRBPjGAdaE/s1600/Charlie-Sheen-Winning-Duh.jpg

    Because that’s the only reason ropelight can put forward for voting for Trump.

    Vote Trump because….

    WINNING!!

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  322. Liviticus, I’ve been a reliable GOP voter since before you were born. And, I have every right to identify with principled conservatism, and I’ll continue to do so even in the face of opposition from people I once respected – you of course were never included in that company.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  323. The best way to make sure Trump does not become the Republican nominee is to keep supporting Cruz. The more you bad mouth Trump the more his name gets out there. Push the good points of Cruz and forget Trump.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  324. How are you going to explain to your grandkids that you voted to send the United States into a sewer?

    And how are you going to explain to your grandkids how you, through your unwillingness to vote (or even worse, pull the lever for the D candidate) allowed either Hillary (who you cited as an example of said sewer dweller) 4 years to destroy America, after have let Obama sit there for 8?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  325. prowlerguy! Good to see you.

    I look forward to taking you to school again, like I did on the thread about Trump and his tax returns.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  326. “307, says JD as he stands with the GOP establishment against the majority of Republican and Conservative voters.”

    Those are lies, and you are a liar. So much dishonesty in one small sentence, it is hard to unpack.

    JD (112444)

  327. Again Steve57, Levidicus, you’re not going to get pro-Cruz converts by calling people names. You guys talk about how down in the dirt Trump is the turn around and get down in the dirt against him. Cut it out already. You’re becoming what you deplore.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  328. 322. …And how are you going to explain to your grandkids how you, through your unwillingness to vote (or even worse, pull the lever for the D candidate) allowed either Hillary (who you cited as an example of said sewer dweller) 4 years to destroy America, after have let Obama sit there for 8?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:00 am

    Like this:

    “I was outnumbered by idiots, liars, whores, and crackheads, kids.”

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  329. JD, Pat, I have a comment in moderation. Please leave it there.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  330. Whole lot of virtue signalling going on around here. Lots of claims to be”true conservatives” and “lovers of the Constitution”, all the while plotting how to overthrow the will of the people. Lot of insults towards your enemies (who you define as anyone not willing to burn Trump at the stake). And lots and lots of fear-mongering and fortune telling. Not a lot of reasoned debate, and even less consideration of the outcome of your actions. I expect next to have threats to leave the country if Trump is nominated/elected.

    On that topic, here is s partial list of those who have threatened to leave the US: Miley Cyrus, Al Sharpton, Barry Diller, Samuel L. Jackson, Jon Stewart, Jennifer Lawrence, Raven Symone, Rosie O’Donnell, Cher, and Whoopi Goldberg (among others). I ask you, who can be against THAT?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  331. The kochaine bros. are as conservative as donahue and the chamber of b.s.

    mg (31009b)

  332. 301. That’s an interesting oath you took there, Steve57. Must have been different than mine. I don’t remember the “if I don’t like the President and think he is acting un-Constitutionally I don’t have to obey him” clause. I also don’t remember the “I alone get to be the arbiter of what is Constitutional” clause, either.

    Actually you have an obligation to disobey an order if it’s unlawful. And that includes if it’s unconstitutional. Unless oaths don’t mean anything to you.

    And it is funny how waterboarding is so evil, yet I was waterboarded along with every other combat aircrew, Force Recon, and their medics. Those who sit in air-conditioned comfort while better men do the ugly work of the military should be reticent when opining about such matters.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 3/4/2016 @ 7:27 am

    I went through Warner Springs in ’91. Where’d you go through SERE?

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  333. well they are libertarian, they have also funded the aclu, the bane of most of our existences.

    back then, I recall right off the back, Admiral William Crowe, was among those who was forcing us down that sewer pipe (the Shawshank analogy) is intended,

    narciso (732bc0)

  334. I look forward to taking you to school again, like I did on the thread about Trump and his tax returns.

    The one where you “showed” that a tax return would show he was a billionaire? That one?

    All you did was try to muddy the water by claiming that one time, you once saw someone investigate someone else for espionage, and somehow a tax return was used. Not to show net worth or what assets a person owned, but that they must have undeclared income. And that somehow proves that if Trump released his return then he could have won his libel lawsuit that centered on his reported net worth.

    But back to this thread. Answer the question: How are you going to explain to your grandkids that you took actions that allowed Hillary to take the White House? How are you going to explain how your desire to not be “racist” led you to do nothing as our country was flooded with illegal immigrants who proceeded to bankrupt the welfare programs, ensure a permanent socialist government, and committed untold numbers of terrorst attacks? Because you didn’t like a guy’s hair.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  335. #319, Steve, wrong again. Although winning is high on my list of priorities, it’s not ‘the’ reason I support Trump, but it is among the top 3. Trump’s detractors keep coming back to the conservative principles argument where they find good reasons to support Cruz and reject Trump. It’s pretty much a no-brainer.

    From that position they can’t understand why others don’t see it the same way. Losing to Trump again and again – seething in hot anger – as more and more GOP voters line up behind a man they consider unfit to lead the conservative movement guys like you, Beldar, JD, and quite a few others , otherwise steady, honorable, honest and true to a fault, succumb to base passions and start lashing out with ugly invective. I know, most of it is directed at me.

    But, what you’re missing is ‘the’ reason I support Trump, and I suspect it’s the same reason for a large portion of Trump’s support. It’s no secret, it’s been in the public arena all along. And, it’s either been ignored or been given short shrift.

    I’m willing to tell you what it is, but you’ve got to ask me nicely.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  336. prowlerguy, how did you go through your Navy career without learning the critical difference between your oath as a commissioned officer…

    I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

    …and the oath of enlistment?

    I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  337. narciso (732bc0) — 3/4/2016 @ 7:44 am

    example of the st. denis cell, where the ‘liberated’ sibling of Abbaoud, blew her self if you recall,

    No, actually she didn’t. That’s what the Paris police initially thought, but they discoverd later there was actually athird person, not Abbaoud and not his cousin/girlfriend/Islamically marrried wife, who blew himself up and killed the others.

    I don’t believe that either Abbaoud or his family member intended to kill themselves. They wanted all the otehr members of he cell to kill themselves, and then to run away to where their boss did. Possibly Mother Russia. Not Syria. Only they didn’t plan the endgame well enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (936567)

  338. Where’d you go through SERE?

    North Island/Warner Springs. And you must have been some sort of super Intel officer, since normally the only people who attend are Recon Marines, Marine Corps Scout Snipers, MARSOC Marines, Navy SEALs, enlisted Navy and Marine Aircrewman, Naval Aviators, Naval Flight Officers, Naval Flight Surgeons, and Navy SWCC. Were you going on top secret missions behind enemy lines, like John Kerry did?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  339. I’ve always held this blog in high regard. The commenters here are smart, funny and usually very insightful. But Donald Trump running for President on the Republican ticket has brought out the worst in most of you. It’s like a civil war here any more. And with Trump unlike any other person R or D the inability and complete lack of desire for compromise is astounding. Under normal conditions we’d be competing in the primary but come together behind the winner in the general. I don’t see that happening this time. And if it doesn’t the left will win. And you will see what shredding the Constitution really looks like when they appoint SC judges, take Congress on their coattails and stack the electoral deck with millions of immigrants suddenly given voting rights.

    The Republican Party may very well be in it’s death throws. I don’t want that to include America too. You guys have got to understand no matter ho is the Republican candidate we cannot let Hillary! win and not voting or voting third party will do just that.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  340. 3. Winning!!1!

    2. Weird Birther Stuff
    1. ___________________ (????)

    Leviticus (efada1)

  341. You messed it up, Steve57. Wrong oath. But I know what point you were making.

    So how do you square not recognizing the authority of the Commander in Chief with “that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same”? Is there something in the Constitution that I missed that would sanction a military coup?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  342. Hoagie,

    Trump was interviewed on Fox & Friends in early December 2015. He said the way to stop terrorists was to “take out” the terrorists and their families, because terrorists care about their families’ lives.

    Trump has never taken that back, to my knowledge, and that’s the source of the questions last night about ordering illegal military actions. It is illegal for our military to target non-combatant civilians, at home or abroad.

    DRJ (15874d)

  343. 332. All you did was try to muddy the water by claiming that one time, you once saw someone investigate someone else for espionage, and somehow a tax return was used. Not to show net worth or what assets a person owned, but that they must have undeclared income. And that somehow proves that if Trump released his return then he could have won his libel lawsuit that centered on his reported net worth…

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:18 am

    Nice misrepresentation of the facts. I said that in forensics accounting the tax return is the roadmap to getting to ground truth about an individual’s financial status. You need to establish a baseline which includes determining someone’s net worth, and the tax return gives you the critical clues to determine that. Then you can proceed to determine if someone is hiding assets or sources of incomes.

    I suppose maybe you’re not deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Perhaps they’re just beyond your grasp. So I’ll try to make this simple. Heregoes. Ready?

    The tax return is THE key document you need to determine if someone is being honest about their finances.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  344. No Hoagie, they are fine with Hillary winning. If their guy can’t win, they want to burn it all down. Start with the Republican Party, then the whole da** country. They know better, and everyone else is a bigot, racist, a coward, anti-Constitution, and stooopid. I’m amazed the term “doody head” hasn’t been thrown out. It’s like we are witnessing the Children of the Corn play out with grownups here.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  345. Hoagie, I’m sorry you are disappointed in commenters here but these are important questions. Frankly, I’m glad we aren’t so PC that we would give up our beliefs and values to avoid hurting someone’s feelings. It’s just words. We will all survive.

    DRJ (15874d)

  346. 339. You messed it up, Steve57. Wrong oath. But I know what point you were making.

    It’s the generic oath of office for a commissioned officer in all seven of the uniformed services prescribed by Section 3331, Title 5, USC. It’s not “wrong” it’s just not service specific.

    …So how do you square not recognizing the authority of the Commander in Chief with “that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same”? Is there something in the Constitution that I missed that would sanction a military coup?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:27 am

    Disobeying an unlawful or unconstitutional order isn’t “staging a military coup.” It’s bearing true faith and allegiance to the Constitution.

    Nobody has any authority to violate the Constitution. Not even the President.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  347. Most of us are unhappy with the GOP, including Trump supporters. No one has a monopoly on “burning it down.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  348. When the gods have marked a man out for destruction they first fill his mind with hatred.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  349. Yes, DRJ, but it’s not Trump supporters who are vowing to sit out the election if their guy doesn’t get the nomination.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  350. prowlerguy @335, do you doubt me? I can prove it; I have all the records. It’s also included in block 14 of my DD214. “Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape, 2wks, JAN91.”

    I had it out because I was getting things together to join the VFW.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  351. Nice weasel there. You claimed, and I quote, “had a $5 billion dollar windfall if he had produced the tax records that would have proved he is actually the billionaire he claims he is”. That was a lie. Federal 1040 would do nothing to prove or disprove the value of assets someone owns. The fact you then spun a wonderful tale how a 1040 helped you catch a spy doesn’t change the fact that you lied. Repeatedly.

    The tax return is NOT the key document to determine someone’s worth. Again, Sam Walton took a very modest salary and led a modest lifestyle, but was worth billions. Many pro athletes have huge incomes but own no assets. While it is true that if someone owned a $5M home on <$100K salary, there would then be probable cause that there may be hidden income, that is not at all what was being discusses in the threadl

    All those things you are speaking of (finding hidden assets, unclaimed income) are the results of criminal investigations, where warrants and court orders can be obtained to search residences, depose people, access bank records, and otherwise invade a person's privacy pursuant to a legal investigation. How's Trump's return going to help you, absent those other tools?

    Hey, try this. Trump has been divorced, and his assets were detailed before the court. How about you look at THAT? What's that? Oh, it wouldn't show charitable contributions that you could spin as a scandal? Tough.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  352. 325. Again Steve57, Levidicus, you’re not going to get pro-Cruz converts by calling people names. You guys talk about how down in the dirt Trump is the turn around and get down in the dirt against him. Cut it out already. You’re becoming what you deplore.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:02 am

    When exactly have I called anyone a name? I’ve said harsh truths about Donald Trump that commenters don’t want to hear.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  353. I’m right here, Huckleberry.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  354. If people are afraid to call a fascist a fascist (and mean it pejoratively) then the fascists have already won.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  355. @339, you were right. I did mess up; I pasted the enlisted oath twice. I meant to copy and paste the generic oath of office.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  356. Nice weasel there. You claimed, and I quote, “had a $5 billion dollar windfall if he had produced the tax records that would have proved he is actually the billionaire he claims he is”. That was a lie. Federal 1040 would do nothing to prove or disprove the value of assets someone owns. The fact you then spun a wonderful tale how a 1040 helped you catch a spy doesn’t change the fact that you lied. Repeatedly.

    The tax return is NOT the key document to determine someone’s worth. Again, Sam Walton took a very modest salary and led a modest lifestyle, but was worth billions. Many pro athletes have huge incomes but own no assets. While it is true that if someone owned a $5M home on <$100K salary, there would then be probable cause that there may be hidden income, that is not at all what was being discusses in the threadl

    All those things you are speaking of (finding hidden assets, unclaimed income) are the results of criminal investigations, where warrants and court orders can be obtained to search residences, depose people, access bank records, and otherwise invade a person's privacy pursuant to a legal investigation. How's Trump's return going to help you, absent those other tools?

    Hey, try this. Trump has been divorced, and his assets were detailed before the court. How about you look at THAT? What's that? Oh, it wouldn't show charitable contributions that you could spin as a scandal? Tough.

    Regarding the oath, go back and re-read your post. You posted the same oath twice. And which orders, specifically, would be unconstitutional? I don't recall seeing anything about torture, nor anything about collateral damage. If that were true, then, a whole bunch of WWII AAC pilots have a lot of explaining to do (Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo). Unlawful unconstitutional.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  357. 352. If people are afraid to call a fascist a fascist (and mean it pejoratively) then the fascists have already won.

    Leviticus (efada1) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:50 am

    I’ve bounced back and forth on the issue and I’ve decided Donald Trump isn’t a fascist. He’s an authoritarian. But to be a fascist would require some sort of coherent program. Whatever Mussolini’s faults he at least knew what he was trying to do, and had a plan of action to achieve it. He had started out a communist but decided that you simply couldn’t have a communist revolution like the Bolsheviks thought, and depose all the owners and managers of commercial enterprises. He, like the Mensheviks, accurately predicted that would end in complete economic disaster.

    FDR, by the way, was a great admirer of that “fine Italian gentleman.”

    But other than being egocentric Trump is incoherent. He’s all over the place.

    Hillary! would be more accurately described as fascist than Trump.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  358. . . . Donald Trump running for President on the Republican ticket has brought out the worst in most of you.
    – Rev. Hoagie™®

    This may well be the best argument against a Trump presidency: he brings out the worst in everyone.

    ThOR (a52560)

  359. 342.Hoagie, I’m sorry you are disappointed in commenters here but these are important questions. Frankly, I’m glad we aren’t so PC that we would give up our beliefs and values to avoid hurting someone’s feelings. It’s just words. We will all survive.

    You missed my point, DRJ. Was it deliberately or accidentally? I didn’t say I am disappointed however that’s a good word for it. First of all the “important questions” have been asked and answered over and over it’s just some of you don’t like the answers. And I’m not suggesting anyone give u their beliefs and values for any reason let alone hurt feelings. However, these are not “just words” these are intentions not to support our candidate against the enemy because you’re unhappy your candidate didn’t win. Yes, as individuals we will survive. The Republican Party on the other hand may not if you all keep ripping each other to shreds. And if the Republican Party fails I fear American will not survive. So it’s not hurt feelings or just words. It the future.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  360. I’m not trying to misunderstand your point but maybe I have. To me, whatever happens here is just words – even if the questions have been asked and answered, and even if the words hurt.

    Perhaps you feel some people are insincerely trolling Trump supporters. If so, they aren’t worth responding to, are they? If you respond, then maybe both sides feel the debate is still worth having.

    DRJ (15874d)

  361. Intentions are still just words. No one here has any control over what other commenters/readers do, except through the power of persuasion that comes from our words.

    DRJ (15874d)

  362. #356, Yes, Hoagie, and it started with Patterico and has metastasized and now infects the minds of most commenters. Sad, but ture.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  363. so was Henry Luce, and a

    narciso (732bc0)

  364. and a whole host of people who should have known better, I guess volodya is a rough parallel, as he is an authoritarian figure with revanchist ends,

    narciso (732bc0)

  365. 328. Whole lot of virtue signalling going on around here. Lots of claims to be”true conservatives” and “lovers of the Constitution”, all the while plotting how to overthrow the will of the people. Lot of insults towards your enemies (who you define as anyone not willing to burn Trump at the stake). And lots and lots of fear-mongering and fortune telling. Not a lot of reasoned debate, and even less consideration of the outcome of your actions. I expect next to have threats to leave the country if Trump is nominated/elected.

    On that topic, here is s partial list of those who have threatened to leave the US: Miley Cyrus, Al Sharpton, Barry Diller, Samuel L. Jackson, Jon Stewart, Jennifer Lawrence, Raven Symone, Rosie O’Donnell, Cher, and Whoopi Goldberg (among others). I ask you, who can be against THAT?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:10 am

    This is what you always do. You put words in other people’s mouths, and then insist that the words you imagined in your head were the words actually said.

    That’s called a straw man argument, prowlerguy (see @354 for further examples).

    What you call the will of the people I call the madness of crowds, or a mob mentality.

    It may well prevail. I told ropelight earlier that he may indeed end up getting the government he and the rest of the Trumpsters deserve. As H.L. Mencken said:

    Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard

    Now, we’re not supposed to have a democracy. We’re supposed to have a constitutional republic. But if the voters want to have a head-to-head contest between a leftist opportunistic authoritarian New York sleazeball politician and a leftist opportunistic authoritarian New York sleazeball businessman they’ve obviously lost all interest in maintaining that constitutional republic.

    But should this madness of this crowd prevail where exactly was I plotting to overthrow what it produces?

    All along I’ve been channeling Mencken. Be careful what you ask for, folks. You just may get it.

    I never said a word about overthrowing anything. I said I’d be there to point and laugh as the Trumpsters belly crawl through every gutter and sewer their folk hero leads them through.

    As far as those leftists leaving the country, I never said there was absolutely no argument for a Trump presidency. It’s just an extremely s****y one.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  366. Lucky Man Sucky Man

    He had big houses
    And ladies by the score
    All shot with plastic
    And waiting by the door

    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was
    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was

    Bullsh*t and feathers
    They filled what he said
    A yuuge egocentric
    They thought he had cred

    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was
    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was

    He went to debates
    For his country to be king
    Of his honor and his glory
    His fanboys would sing

    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was
    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was

    The whole truth had found him
    His fan base sat and cried
    Yuuge money couldn’t save him
    So he laid down and he died

    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was
    Ooooh, what a sucky man he was

    Colonel Haiku (741b4a)

  367. Simon Jester agrees with you that things like this rip the GOP apart and hurt our chances. As I recall, elissa felt that way, too. I respect and like them a great deal. If I were picking neighbors from the commenters here, they would be among the top of the list. But I don’t agree with them on that one point.

    Debate — even heated debate, and perhaps especially heated debate — is what makes our system work. It’s what allows us to reach a consensus and real compromise, if one is posdible. What has hurt our nation most in the past 20 years is that Democrats have stopped debating, and now some Republicans want to do the same thing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  368. the bottom line,
    at least for many of us
    http://ifunny.co/fun/TEvtiNXg3?gallery=featured

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  369. 357. … However, these are not “just words” these are intentions not to support our candidate against the enemy because you’re unhappy your candidate didn’t win. Yes, as individuals we will survive. The Republican Party on the other hand may not if you all keep ripping each other to shreds. And if the Republican Party fails I fear American will not survive. So it’s not hurt feelings or just words. It the future.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27) — 3/4/2016 @ 9:00 am

    You’re operating on the theory that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” It’s an old adage, and it’s been exposed throughout history as a fraud. As has Donald Trump. Who may be the enemy of my my enemy (Hillary Clinton, GOPe) but is most definitely not my friend.

    I’m not one for quoting movies, but your insistence that we have to hold our nose and vote for Trump made a line from Rob Roy pop into my head. “You put great store in wolves of different shades. They’re all the same at lambing.”

    If Trump becomes the GOP nom, and it rallies behind him, then the Republican party will have failed again.

    It’s just that simple.

    The difference this time is that the voters won’t be able to blame GOPe for the failure. They’ll only have themselves to blame.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  370. You guys have got to understand no matter ho is the Republican candidate we cannot let Hillary! win and not voting or voting third party will do just that.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27) — 3/4/2016 @ 8:25 am

    Actually my belief is twofold- Trump will be worse than Hillary if he wins, and Trump cannot beat Hillary.

    First, Trump will be all over the map, and will happily go against what he promised (as he ALREADY has done) to make a deal. You think the GOP establishment sold you out and gave in to the liberals? You haven’t seen ANYTHING yet! And the House and Senate (if he even remains in GOP hands) will gladly go along, because Trump is the establishment, and they can work him if needed.

    Second, while Hillary isn’t all that popular and has a lot of baggage, people HATE Trump on both sides of the isle. And the media will just ramp up against Trump while protecting Hillary- because Trump has a ton of baggage too. Trump is way underwater on favorability ratings.

    In the end, a vote for Trump is a vote for Hillary and against any sort of principles.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1)

  371. @ ropelight (#294): Saddam Hussein’s sons were themselves adults who were legitimate targets based on their adult actions. That is such a typical example of your extreme and deliberate dishonesty, making that sort of comparison!

    This is why I have now concluded that you aren’t just a crazy sucker, but a deeply dishonest co-conspirator with Trump’s frauds. This is why I have zero respect for you; this is why I actively dislike you; this is why I wish you’d go somewhere else with your poisonous lies, because I’m very tired of reading them.

    You’re also more dangerous than most of the suckers who are supporting and actively campaigning for Donald Trump, because you’re fairly clever with your lies and your distortions. You actually usually manage complete sentences, which of course is beyond the ability of your hero. So as long as you keep telling these lies, I’ll keep calling you out. Fish, barrel, bang. If I can do it in a way that makes you personally uncomfortable, then terrific: That’s a secondary goal, maybe it will somehow penetrate your stubborn craziness. But my primary goal is to make sure that anyone who reads your lies also has multiple corrections close at hand, and that they be as vivid as I can make them. Your hurt feelings are the very least of my concerns.

    @ Hoagie (#279): I’m not misquoting or exaggerating. From the transcript, it’s spectacularly clear that Trump not only refused to back down from his prior promises to target terrorists’ families, but that he also defended and doubled down on that promise (boldface mine):

    BAIER: Mr. Trump, just yesterday, almost 100 foreign policy experts signed on to an open letter refusing to support you, saying your embracing expansive use of torture is inexcusable. General Michael Hayden, former CIA director, NSA director, and other experts have said that when you asked the U.S. military to carry out some of your campaign promises, specifically targeting terrorists’ families, and also the use of interrogation methods more extreme than waterboarding, the military will refuse because they’ve been trained to turn down and refuse illegal orders.

    So what would you do, as commander-in-chief, if the U.S. military refused to carry out those orders?

    TRUMP: They won’t refuse. They’re not going to refuse me. Believe me.

    BAIER: But they’re illegal.

    TRUMP: Let me just tell you, you look at the Middle East. They’re chopping off heads. They’re chopping off the heads of Christians and anybody else that happens to be in the way. They’re drowning people in steel cages. And he — now we’re talking about waterboarding.

    This really started with Ted, a question was asked of Ted last — two debates ago about waterboarding. And Ted was, you know, having a hard time with that question, to be totally honest with you. They then came to me, what do you think of waterboarding? I said it’s fine. And if we want to go stronger, I’d go stronger, too, because, frankly…

    (APPLAUSE)

    … that’s the way I feel. Can you imagine — can you imagine these people, these animals over in the Middle East, that chop off heads, sitting around talking and seeing that we’re having a hard problem with waterboarding? We should go for waterboarding and we should go tougher than waterboarding. That’s my opinion.

    BAIER: But targeting terrorists’ families?

    (APPLAUSE)

    TRUMP: And — and — and — I’m a leader. I’m a leader. I’ve always been a leader. I’ve never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they’re going to do it. That’s what leadership is all about.

    BAIER: Even targeting terrorists’ families?

    TRUMP: Well, look, you know, when a family flies into the World Trade Center, a man flies into the World Trade Center, and his family gets sent back to where they were going — and I think most of you know where they went — and, by the way, it wasn’t Iraq — but they went back to a certain territory, they knew what was happening. The wife knew exactly what was happening.

    They left two days early, with respect to the World Trade Center, and they went back to where they went, and they watched their husband on television flying into the World Trade Center, flying into the Pentagon, and probably trying to fly into the White House, except we had some very, very brave souls on that third plane. All right?

    (APPLAUSE)

    I’ve not exaggerated or misread what Trump said, and as DRJ’s comment above confirms, it’s a position he’s held, against incredulous pushback from non-monsters (i.e., the rest of us) since December. He was more clear on this point — that he will order the military to kill terrorists’ families — than he was on any other single particular promise last night. Were you tuned out during this exchange? He ended by describing the wives of the 9/11 terrorists as the kind of family members he wants to kill (never mind that he was repeating a fable debunked conclusively by the 9/11 Commission).

    The word “families” includes children. If both members of a married couple are involved — like the pair just now in San Bernadino — then you don’t refer to either spouse as just “family,” but as a terrorist (which of course can be male or female). But those are adults. Families include children. Killing anyone — but especially children — deliberately, for no other reason than their family relationship to a terrorists is indeed a war crime. It’s been outside the bounds of the rules of war going back long before recorded history, and deviators are considered barbaric civilizations.

    Are you serious supporting Trump on this, Hoagie? Do you support killing families, including children, just because they’re related to terrorists, even when they are not guilty of anything themselves? Because that’s what Trump was previously on record as promising, and that’s what he doubled down on last night. You wrote (#312):

    BTW, families of terrorists should be treated like co-conspirators since most of the time they are.

    Even if that were true — and you’d apparently include what, fifth cousins half-way around the world? — it is a deeply evil formulation, if by “treated like co-conspirators” you mean “targeted for killing.”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  372. “Second, while Hillary isn’t all that popular and has a lot of baggage…”

    Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge baggage hahahahaha… HA!!!!

    Colonel Haiku (741b4a)

  373. Doc @366, that’s good. Nice and concise. This is wordier but it captures the essence of Trump.

    http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=361934

    Debate Scorecard

    … Donald Trump. Repudiated the Jeff Sessions Immigration Plan — which was the only reason to support him — by declaring he was “changing” and “softening” it because we need all these highly-skilled people to take our jobs. Then said he would be “flexible” on the wall and deporting illegals and pretty much admitted he’d said as much to the New York Times editorial board, and then, in case you were unsure if you’d heard him right, praised Marco Rubio’s Amnesty plan as “fine” and a good opening bargaining position.

    Kept talking about his hand-size and then, just when you thought this was getting weird, brought it back into a more sensible area by assuring the world that his penis size was sufficient for most.

    He then added some substance to his foreign policy platform by declaring that he would force American soldiers to break the law and murder children.

    On other issues, he was less reassuring.

    His answers to questions about Trump University and the budget were somewhat uncomfortable to watch, in much the same way that it is uncomfortable to watch a bus full of circus clowns crash into a school for blind children and even worse the clowns were doing their “Gasoline Comedy” act that day and now all the blind children are on fire and the clowns are trying to squirt water on them with their stupid lapel-flowers but the flowers are just squirting out more gas and the children are crying tears of fire out of their Unseeing Dead Eyes and holy s*** a couple of the clowns look like they have b*ners and they’re chasing around the fiery blind children trying to rub up on them with these bobbling clown-b*ners with big red bulbs on their tips.

    In other words, as Trump would say: Not the best. Really not terrific. A real mess!

    Grade: I don’t even know how to even start grading this. As far as a letter grade, I give a red X carved crudely through the face of a rotting pig with a bunch of stripper-glitter tossed on it.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  374. I don’t see how getting this out on the table hurts the party – or, even the commenters here at PP. Romney’s comments, yesterday, serve as a reminder of how pulling punches accomplishes nothing. Enough already of the disingenuous mush.

    We should see the current primary season for what it is: an important watershed for conservatives. Trump, Cruz, and others have given voice to a base that has been shamelessly ignored by the GOPe for years. They’re getting what they deserve – remind me, what was Golden Boy Jeb’s average take in the primaries? 5%? There never was a clearer message than that.

    We shouldn’t get lost in the reflexive disgust we feel for Trump. This election cycle has already changed the Republican Party for the better. Today, in the face of the Trump onslaught, it may not seem like much, but in the long run, it sure will.

    ThOR (a52560)

  375. As the discussion on johnson size continues unabated, Vlad Putin oils up, gets on his pony and rides…

    Colonel Haiku (741b4a)

  376. 368. First, Trump will be all over the map, and will happily go against what he promised (as he ALREADY has done) to make a deal. You think the GOP establishment sold you out and gave in to the liberals? You haven’t seen ANYTHING yet! And the House and Senate (if he even remains in GOP hands) will gladly go along, because Trump is the establishment, and they can work him if needed.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1) — 3/4/2016 @ 9:30 am

    See, Leviticus? Patrick Henry gets it. I’m not afraid to call Trump a fascist. It’s just he’s not rational or organized enough to be a fascist.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  377. Rev. Hoagie,
    Please don’t let the tone of the discussion cause you to shoot the messenger. You asked where the stuff about killing women and children came from. I answered, DRJ answered again later.

    I myself am quite dismayed at the tone of much of the conversation here, part of that is over simplification and presumptions and generalizations totally without base.

    For example, being unwilling to allow children of terrorists within the US being treated equally as terrorists does not mean I am against waterboarding “or even more” with known enemy combatants not in uniform, even within the US if there is precedent for how such a determination can be safely made (Big If).

    A point I made in various ways over time:
    Most, if not virtually all, people have a level at which “I can’t go that far”.
    In fact, unless my memory is wrong, even some people here who now say they “can’t vote for Trump” once said it was wrong when other people said so about other candidates.
    (AM I RIGHT on this according to other folk’s memories?)

    I think it is a bit bizarre to get heated over which of two bad choices is the worst.
    Those of you who think Trump is a good choice, be my guest.

    Aside from lots of talk, as far as I can tell the only thing Trump has which shows ability to be president is his claimed business ability. From what I can tell, his record as a business man is not that great. He is great at selling himself and selling things, often at a cost to others.

    As I’ve said before, I don’t care what a person says unless they have behavior that is consistent with it.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  378. Trump’s cancelled his appearance at CPAC. So no tax returns, no NYT tape, no more debates, and no more appearances before audiences actually committed to conservative principles.

    To the mattresses!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  379. I don’t think canceling CPAC will hurt him but has Trump also said he won’t do more debates? That would hurt him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  380. Rubio is tanking his campaign to help the establishment, which is clearly willing to throw its eggs into the Romney basket … or any basket that isn’t Trump’s or Cruz’s. I dont feel sorry for Rubio about that since it’s his choice, but I do feel bad for him last night since they say he has the flu.

    DRJ (15874d)

  381. I’m with Ted Cruz, by the way, with respect to voting for the GOP nominee even if that’s Trump. But that’s not inconsistent with seeking a hypothetical Pres. Trump’s impeachment six weeks into his first term if he were to do something like try to order the military to commit war crimes.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  382. If there is anything worse than electing a leftist as president, it is electing someone who is lawless.
    Had Obama been a leftist willing to play within the rules, or had an opposition that was willing to make him live within the rules,
    his presidency wouldn’t have been nearly as bad as it has been.

    Electing a lawless megalomaniac with no foundational ideology other than being in it for himself is not any better than electing a leftist, if there is a credible opposition.

    I go with the picture I linked (which was sent me by my daughter, that’s a positive).

    I think there is little rational cause to say who is better, Hillary or Trump, they are both terrible. I don’t argue with anyone over which devil they prefer.
    I’m still hoping that somehow:
    1) that is not our final choice
    2) that we don’t get an even worse and more corrupt leftist than Hillary after all is said and done.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  383. Not sure why you think Rubio was/is not willing to help Cruz as well.
    Later

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  384. DRJ, Trump hasn’t said for sure that he won’t attend more debates, but Sean Hannity tossed him a softball suggestion to that effect last night and Trump not only fielded the softball, but then hugged it to his chest. Transcript quote above at #242; he conceded that he’s “saddled” with one more, which sounds to me very much like he’s about to cancel out on the rest of them.

    I’m very sure he didn’t want to be there last night, and I’m pretty sure that his handlers had done some serious sensitivity deconditioning to tamp down his normal reactions to Megyn Kelly in particular. He was uncharacteristically mild in his reactions to the questioners (which was smart), and after his initial explosion about “Little Marco” (which Rubio obviously and deliberately baited him into, successfully), he mostly mastered his temper on-stage.

    (What worries me is thinking about how much better Vladimir Putin is at yanking chains and baiting idiots than Marco Rubio could ever dream of being.)

    Skipping another debate, though, would be inconsistent with his normal schtick, in which all publicity is good publicity. Let’s see, last time he held a rally to benefit veterans (the money from which hasn’t been accounted for). What competing circus could be so good that it would offset the damage from him skipping out now?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  385. Even if that were true — and you’d apparently include what, fifth cousins half-way around the world? — it is a deeply evil formulation, if by “treated like co-conspirators” you mean “targeted for killing.”

    I don’t know Beldar, what do you think is appropriate for co-conspirators? Like you, I don’t make the rules but I do know that if someone feeds, clothes, shelters, drives the getaway car or aids in any way a criminal they are held accountable for his crimes. Isn’t that true for terrorists too? Or is The Religion of Peace beyond reproach for what their women and children do to aid their men killing us?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  386. I forgot to link the debate transcript from which I was quoting above in #368.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  387. 375. …Most, if not virtually all, people have a level at which “I can’t go that far”.
    In fact, unless my memory is wrong, even some people here who now say they “can’t vote for Trump” once said it was wrong when other people said so about other candidates.
    (AM I RIGHT on this according to other folk’s memories?)

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84) — 3/4/2016 @ 9:48 am

    You are correct as far as my memory goes. I don’t believe I’m guilty of your charge, as I recall saying things like I doubted I could vote for Bush. Now I don’t have to worry about that, and I have my fingers crossed that I won’t be put in the position of not voting for Trump.

    Your comment reminds me of the reasons why I’m against early voting or absentee voting unless someone really can’t get to the polls on election day. If you vote a month early you can learn something about a candidate prior to election day that would have changed your mind. Had you known you might have said, “I can’t go that far.”

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  388. I think what’s appropriate for co-conspirators is justice, after they’re established to be co-conspirators.

    You’re presuming that all family members are co-conspirators. That is a false and dangerous presumption, even if you limit it to family members who are in the immediate proximity of a terrorist.

    Please note, too: This is not about collateral damage. This is not even about the unfortunate situation when the United States, in targeting a terrorist, can’t avoid collateral harm. Chris Kyle had to kill that child who was wired up by the terrorists; the reason I wept at that scene in the movie was partly because of my sympathy for the child, but also very much because of my sympathy for Chris Kyle, who was no war criminal but who fully and completely understood the immense moral consequence of what he was obliged by duty, honor, and country to do.

    This is about targeting — and killing — people who’s only connection to terrorists is that they are family members. That’s why Trump wants to kill them, not because they’re “probably co-conspirators,” but because he thinks it will exert leverage on the terrorists themselves.

    That’s barbaric.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  389. Well, I have said my piece as far as you guys beating each other up so I’ll take my own advice and stop beating you all up about it.

    BTW, Beldar, I didn’t “include fifth cousins half-way around the world”. You’re a lawyer, right? You do know what a co-conspirator is I assume. I guess those guys around the world could be co-conspirators in some way but I was thinking a bit more local and a bit more hands on.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  390. I’m about to get a new TV installed and new up graded internet service from Fios. They say I’ll have no TV or internet for 2 hours.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  391. Hoagie, I’m not saying we need to land a helicopter and read Miranda rights to the bodyguards of a legitimate terrorist target before we use a drone to blow up their vehicle. I’m not second-guessing the SEALs who did the bin Laden raid for the people in bin Laden’s household who were killed even though they were never targeted as part of the need for the raid. I’m all for getting the lawyers off the battlefield, and by “justice” above I mean it in a cosmic, not courtroom, sense. I have no problem at all with killing genuine co-conspirators on purpose, and I consider the killing of others whose deaths can’t be avoided to be extremely unfortunate — but no war crime.

    That’s not this.

    Trump’s theory is exactly like the Mafia’s. The more innocent the family-member victim, the more pressure that should exert on the terrorists, according to Trump’s theory. This is about targeting and killing people who are innocent by definition — and Donald Trump is in favor.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  392. BTW, Hoagie, when you get back, let us know if the FIOS is really as fast as they promise. I’m still years away from getting it in my neighborhood, but there’s hope.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  393. Steve57,
    No, you are not one that I was thinking of…

    Hoagie, as I said above, I am content with waterboarding and more if we are talking about a captured known terrorist,
    Trump seemed to be indicating to me that we needed to match their ruthlessness, and when offered to clarify, he didn’t,
    And then his bluster that the military would obey him in spite of giving an illegal order,
    That is not the talk of a serious and responsible person to put in charge of much of anything

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  394. The enemy of my enemy?

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  395. Sitting on our balcony, drinking Kona and watching whales breach. Trump schmump!

    Colonel Haiku (741b4a)

  396. 383. …Like you, I don’t make the rules but I do know that if someone feeds, clothes, shelters, drives the getaway car or aids in any way a criminal they are held accountable for his crimes. Isn’t that true for terrorists too? Or is The Religion of Peace beyond reproach for what their women and children do to aid their men killing us?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27) — 3/4/2016 @ 10:07 am

    You’re conflating a lot of things. Feeding, clothing, sheltering, or “aiding in any way a criminal” does not automatically make someone accountable for their crimes. For instance a parent can do all that for a child (juvenile or adult), perhaps aid them by loaning them money, but if they don’t know their child is engaged in criminal activity you can’t hold them accountable.

    Then there’s the issue of volition. Per the RoP, for instance, what would you expect the wife of a Muslim terrorist to do?

    Surah 2:223 Al-Baqarah (The Cow)

    Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers.

    A wife is property, like a farmer’s field.

    By the way, when a Muslim wants to “sow his seed,” the part about coming “to your place of cultivation however you wish” means that the wife must perform on demand, in whatever sexual position her husband demands. Muhammad decreed that if a husband and wife were riding a camel and the husband demanded sex, the wife would have to have sex with him right then and there, on the back of the camel.

    Surah 4:34 An-Nisa (The Women)

    Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

    A Muslim man doesn’t have to wait until his wife is disobedient until he beats her. He may only suspect she might be disobedient in the future.

    Children are in an even worse spot. In all schools of Shariah law there is not bloodwit for killing your child or grandchild. In case you’re not familiar with the concept, the bloodwit is a fine or punishment for shedding blood; i.e. committing murder.

    Apologists for Islam try to make the case that “honor killings” aren’t Islamic. Perhaps not, in the sense that it’s a pre-Islamic custom. But unlike exposing unwanted baby girls in the desert, Muhammad didn’t end the practice. Indeed, the Quran and the Sunnah provide no basis to punish it, and consequently neither does Shariah. There’s a reason why 97% of the honor killings around the world are committed by Muslims.

    So you can’t hold family members accountable for Muslim terrorists even if the powerless members know what the terrorist is up to.

    Now, if the adult men in the family know what the terrorist is up to and aid the terrorist then they’re valid targets. But not because they’re family members. Because they’re co-conspirators; i.e. they themselves are terrorists.

    You have to be careful going down this road, Hoagie. We don’t want to become like the terrorists themselves. Recall on 9/11/01 that some western observes declared the terrorists “un-Islamic” because they also killed Muslims in the twin towers, Pentagon, or on the flights that plowed into them or that Pennsylvania field.

    Not as far as the terrorists were concerned, they didn’t. Nor as far as Shariah is concerned were those people Muslims. They were apostates if they live in western countries whose governments send armies into Muslim countries and pay taxes to those governments. Because according to shariah if you pay to arm, train, equip, and support the soldiers in those armies you are just as accountable as the soldiers themselves.

    It’s why the killers in San Bernardino, Paris, etc., considered their targets fair game.

    This, by the way, is one reason why many if not most Muslim extremists in the west would rather live on the dole than work (another is that they view it as a form of jizya, the tribute money non-Muslims owe to their Muslim conquerors). Paying taxes to support western infidel armies is a form of apostasay.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  397. Hillary! would be more accurately described as fascist than Trump.

    Moreover, what we’ve been experiencing during the past 8 years is at the very least no better — no less fascistic, if you will — than what we perhaps will be experiencing over the next 4 years. That includes the Oval Office being turned over to either a Trump or, most certainly, Bill’s horrible spouse.

    I snicker when people of the left sound dire warnings about any of the Republicans in 2016, including Trump, winning the presidency in November. Democrats in general have lost total credibility with the amoral, tricky, dishonest, leftist people at the top of their party.

    I’ve read about some Republicans or self-identified conservatives saying things are so bad right now, they’d vote for Hillary in November instead of Trump or Cruz. Oh, please. Such people are either Rockefeller (or Paul Ryan) Republicans or about as conservative as a John Kasich.

    Mark (6c93d5)

  398. 285. I stand corrected and obliged.

    DNF (ffe548)

  399. I actually don’t care about terrorists’ families.

    We gots half a million Xians and Yazidis raped and offed and I supposed to stand in front of the bulldozers for ululating vermin?

    DNF (ffe548)

  400. Conservative principles reiterated is just talking past the big tent interlopers.

    You may as well throw in the towel now if that’s all you’ve got.

    The mob wants to know about securing their bottom line and anything else is littering.

    DNF (ffe548)

  401. By the way, when you’re reading quran transliterations it’s important to note that the words in parentheses or in brackets are not in the original Arabic text. They’re inserted by the transliterator. For instance note in verse 4:34:

    Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

    Most of the words inserted in the Sahih international transliteration are there to clarify the meaning; what is clear in the Arabic isn’t really clear in English. Most of the words. However, in the original Arabic there is no indication whatsoever that the punishments a man metes out to his wife must be done is some sort of ascending order. In the original Arabic it’s simply presented as an a la carte menu the husband can choose from. He can go right to the beating part and no one will gainsay him.

    The wife beating thingy is embarrassing for Muslims to explain to western audiences so they’re not above revising Allah’s words to make things appear less awful. Hence the implication that a husband is somehow bound by his religion not to beat his wife unless he’s exhausted all other options. That simply isn’t true.

    Other transliterations, like the Muhsin Khan version of the Quran, are even worse in this regard.

    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband’s property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.

    There is absolutely no basis to imagine the beating must be light, or even useful.

    http://sunnah.com/bukhari/77

    Rifa`a divorced his wife whereupon `AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. `Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) came, `Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!” When `AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment, `Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ)! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa`a.” Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa`a unless `Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” Then the Prophet (ﷺ) saw two boys with `Abdur- Rahman and asked (him), “Are these your sons?” On that `AbdurRahman said, “Yes.” The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,”

    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 5825
    In-book reference : Book 77, Hadith 42
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 7, Book 72, Hadith 715
    (deprecated numbering scheme)

    Ahh, the genius of Muhammad! Note that it doesn’t occur to him that Abdur Rahman may have been able to function once; his sons are clearly fairly mature, and he fathered them with an earlier wife. That doesn’t mean he isn’t at this point impotent as the new wife claims.

    But more importantly, Muhammad doesn’t rebuke Abdur Rahman for beating Rifa`a until she was black and blue (or as the hadith puts it, green). No, he tells Rifa’s she got exactly what she deserved.

    As an aside, I italicized Aisha’s statement about the “believing woman” suffering more than any other women. Specifically she’s comparing how Muslim women are treated compared to pagan women in Arabia. And Muslim women are worse off. Most people who attempt to defend Islam, such as representatives from CAIR, actually intend to deceive people about it’s true nature. One such narrative is that “Muhammad was the world’s first feminist” and they’ll point to his first wife, Khadijah, who was a wealthy entrepreneur in her own right.

    They’re deliberately playing on people’s ignorance. Khadijah was wealthy before she ever married Muhammad. In fact he worked for her before he married her, so he was essentially marrying his wealthy employer (shades of John F’n Kerry and the ketchup heiress; que up Van Halen “Just a Gigolo..”). More importantly, Muhammad married Khadijah years before he received his first revelation. And Khadijah died before Muhammad made the hijrah to Yathrib (later Madina) which marks the beginning of the Islamic era.

    In other words, she became a wealthy entrepreneur in her own right during the pagan era, before there ever was such a thing as Islam. In some ways Islam made things better for women, such as Muhammad ending the practice of exposing unwanted girl infants in the desert (abandoning them to die or be killed by predators). But as Aisha, the “Mother of the Faithful” and Muhammad’s favorite wife exclaims, in many ways women were worse off under Islam then they had been under paganism.

    Which, again, is another reason why you can’t automatically hold wives accountable for their terrorist husband’s actions.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  402. Jeez, what was I thinking. Rifa’a is the woman’s earlier husband who divorced her.

    Being a woman the lady in question isn’t important enough to be named. Also note that the hadith is presented in the “Book of Dress.” As far as the hadith collector, al-Bukhari, is concerned the important detail here is that her veil was green. It’s the only hadith in chapter 23, “Green Clothes.”

    The fact that she just had the crap beaten out of her is entirely inconsequential.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  403. Nearly 10 years ago a shooting occurred at the West Nickel Mines School, an Amish one-room schoolhouse in the Old Order Amish community of Nickel Mines, a village in Bart Township, Pennsylvania.

    The gunman Charles Carl Roberts lined up 10 girls age 6-13 in front of the blackboard, then allowed a pregnant woman, three parents with infants, and all remaining boys to exit the building.

    Roberts then shot eight out of the ten girls in the back of the head, one by one, before committing suicide as police moved in. Roberts targeted the Amish girls because he knew their religion focused on forgiveness, since he had a wife and daughters of his own, Roberts knew they would be safe from retaliation. He knew his wife and children would never experience what he did to the children of others.

    So, how do you stop a man like Charles Carl Roberts?

    ropelight (6354c4)

  404. Trump says “by becoming him!”

    Thinking people vomit; others applaud.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  405. 397. I actually don’t care about terrorists’ families.

    We gots half a million Xians and Yazidis raped and offed and I supposed to stand in front of the bulldozers for ululating vermin?

    DNF (ffe548) — 3/4/2016 @ 11:15 am

    Howzabout we try a couple of “intermediate” steps first. Like:

    1. Calling them who they are; Muslims.
    2. Targeting the actual Muslim terrorists.
    3. Not releasing them in order to replenish the enemy in the field.

    Prom Queen, according to all reports, refuses to even listen to his intel briefers or read intel reports if they’re about groups he personally refuses to acknowledge as terroristsswithsre on the official DoS list. Like a petulant child when reality overwhelms him he shuts his eyes and pulls the blanket over his head.

    Infantile narrative uber alles. Only “core” Al Qaeda and ISIS are terrorists, and they’re on the run or being degraded. In Prom Queen’s tiny bubble (no wonder his inner circle demands CENTCOM analysts cook the intel so it tells Tiger Beat what he wants to hear; they don’t want to burst Obama’s bubble and drive the poor fragile narcissist over the edge).

    You know, Nimitz managed to arrange the defeat of Japan without targeting Yamamoto’s wife and kids. Just Isoroku Yamamoto himself. Not targeting Yamamoto’s family was hardly “throwing in the towel,” DNF von Klauswitz.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  406. Just heard Luntz is sending Rubio a “Dear John Letter”.

    mg (31009b)

  407. in most of these cases, taking the warnings seriously,

    narciso (732bc0)

  408. Looking at warning signs might not work, narciso. From Wikipedia:

    The gunman, identified as Charles Roberts IV, was a milk truck driver who delivered to several Amish farms in the Nickel Mines area (including some of the victims’ families). He had three children and a wife, for whom he left four separate suicide notes. When State Police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller interviewed Roberts’ co-workers, they claimed to have noticed a “change” in him over the past couple of months.

    They also claimed that he seemed to return to normal in the week leading up to the shooting. Miller hypothesizes that this “calm” may have been when he (Roberts) decided to go through with the shooting. Miller also noted that Roberts’ neighbors reported his mood as unusually upbeat and jovial during this time period.

    ropelight (6354c4)

  409. Cruz has had everything stacked against him. Voters are not smart these days. They are emotional. Trump feeds their emotions. Cruz is asking them to grow up. Move away from the emotions that BO has brainwashed them with for the last decade. Trump is the easy pill to swallow. Cruz is the harder pill but the cure. People want the easy quick fix.

    Cruz will be the smarter choice. Prayers for people to see Ted. To look passed the Trump popularity and see Ted.

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  410. 387.I’m about to get a new TV installed and new up graded internet service from Fios. They say I’ll have no TV or internet for 2 hours.
    Rev. Hoagie

    So, I got hit with a $600.00 bill when I moved three years after fios installation, as they never told me but made me sign the small print that 5 years was my minimum contract time….. sneaky, but now I only use Comcast who never snuck a clause like that …

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  411. As if CPAC has anything to do with conservative voters. In 2008, 2009 and 2012 they picked Romney, for goodness sake. That’s an authentic conservative position if I ever saw one. And their other choices and runners-up are just as “conservative”: Phil Gramm, Bob Dole, George W. Bush, Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, Marco Rubio and the Pauls. Forgive me if I don’t feel their influence and judgement is all that great.

    prowlerguy (45fb79)

  412. BTW, Steve57,
    Thanks for answering my query.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  413. #410 prowlerguy,

    Please don’t hesitate to inform us whom “should have” won the straw poll at CPAC in each of those aforementioned years.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  414. Update on Drudge Poll:

    **DRUDGE POLL** WHO WON THE 11TH REPUBLICAN DEBATE ’16?

    TRUMP 52.75% (348,531 votes)

    CRUZ 26.79% (176,991 votes)

    KASICH 15.48% (102,260 votes)

    RUBIO 4.98% (32,972 votes)

    Total Votes: 660,754

    ropelight (6354c4)

  415. #412

    Why should I? I don’t claim to speak for all conservatives, do I? While CPAC may have started as an authentic conservative group in the 1970’s, but by the actions they have taken since that time, have shown themselves to be anything but conservative. Or are you saying that Romeny, McCain, Phil Gramm and Bob Dole are rock-ribbed conservatives?

    prowlerguy (45fb79)

  416. Yay! More meaningless Drudge “poll”.

    JD (112444)

  417. #414 prowlerguy,

    See, you’re snidely mocking the winners of the various CPAC straw polls in each of those by-gone years by saying they’re not conservative enough, but you’re not willing to say, ‘…and they SHOULD have voted for so-and-so.”
    How do you know those people weren’t the best available choice in those years?
    Voting comes down to choosing from among whom is on the ballot in that particular year.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  418. @Steve57

    “by the transliterator”

    you mean translator. A transliteration is copying the same words in the same langauge but a different alphabet (and there may be some compromises made)

    Sammy Finkelman (643dcd)

  419. ropelight, I’ve got a question for you that only needs a one-word answer:

    Do you support Trump despite his willingness to murder the families of terrorists on no grounds other than that they’re the family of terrorists? Or do you support Trump in part because of that?

    Despite or because?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  420. nobody who’s gotten under 30% in a Drudge poll at this stage of the cycle has ever gone on to win the nomination

    and while this is good news for Mr. The Donald, it bodes not good things for other candidates for example Ted Cruz

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  421. Drudge Troll Poll

    mg (31009b)

  422. “Voting comes down to choosing from among whom is on the ballot in that particular year.”

    – Cruz Supporter.

    No, it doesn’t. Voting is the act of signaling who you want to represent you. There’s the act of voting, and the tallying of votes, and the two things are separate – but if I want to signal something that the ballot doesn’t allow, that’s the ballot’s problem, not mine.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  423. You tell me JD, if a terrorist is willing to die in order to kill others, how can you stop him other than retaliating against someone he doesn’t want to be responsible for harming.

    ropelight (6354c4) — 3/4/2016 @ 7:38 am

    To stop a person who is willing to die for his cause, is to be willing to die for yours. Are you willing to die for a mission of slaughtering some family living in a desert village somewhere, how about sending your son on the same mission?

    If our cause becomes unworthy, then Islamic terrorism wins.

    This is not a strategic war, but an ideological one. If we bastardize our values, or break our Constitution, then we have lost; ours best ideals fail and our ideology inferior to the ideology of an ancient desert, barbaric code. We will lose if we play their game, by their rules.

    Better: Identify, isolate, terminate; but you know that ropelight.

    IIRC, you are a veteran, so you understand better than most. I have respect for you ropelight, even though we disagree on who should be President — hey, that happens.

    But this is not that kind of war. In this war, we cannot allow the enemy to dictate the terms of battle. To win, we must dictate the terms and tactics, we have no choice but to implement our values — this is an ideological war, we abandon our ideals at our peril.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)

  424. You tell me JD, if a terrorist is willing to die in order to kill others, how can you stop him other than retaliating against someone he doesn’t want to be responsible for harming.

    ropelight (6354c4) — 3/4/2016 @ 7:38 am

    You presume that retaliating against his family will actually stop him. It probably won’t. He’ll believe they will go to heaven, and will have sacrificed for the cause.

    So now we just killed innocent people, for what?

    Its not enough to survive… One has to be worthy of survival

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1)

  425. 423. …You presume that retaliating against his family will actually stop him. It probably won’t. He’ll believe they will go to heaven, and will have sacrificed for the cause.

    So now we just killed innocent people, for what?

    Its not enough to survive… One has to be worthy of survival

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (ddead1) — 3/4/2016 @ 2:28 pm

    If you want to have a chance to stop him by putting some sort of psychological pressure on him, first you have to stop projecting what you would want or not want; what would motivate you or hinder you. You have to at least understand what motivates your enemy.

    And we can’t do that without first identifying the fact that Islam is their primary motivation. It is the one shared constant. And I’m not going to beat around the bush and say nonsense like “they’ve hijacked the RoP” or some such. No one can say they’ are getting Islam wrong. I don’t just mean Imams Obama, Kerry, Clinton of the US, Cameron of the UK, or Francis of the Vatican city state. There is no religious authority in the Islamic world that can even declare their understanding to be the wrong one. No such authority exists.

    So leaving all that nonsense aside it is entirely possible to figure out what the Muslim terrorists’ understanding of Islam includes or does not include, but only if you are willing to take the critical first step of identifying them as Muslim.

    This is however crimethink in intel/national security/law enforcement circles under the Obama administration. Examining their religious motivations was uncomfortably tolerated under Bush. It will get you reeducated under Obama (by instructors sent to us by the enemy in the guise of CAIR, no less) and then fired if you re-offend.

    Whoever becomes President will have put a stop to this nonsense. They’ll have to purge the bureaucracy of every Muslim Brotherhood-linked individual; ideally, we can join other countries and declare the MB a foreign terrorist organization. There is ample evidence for this, if we take the blindfold off. We also have to cut any official or unofficial ties with CAIR. We can not do business of any sort with CAIR or any of the other unindicted co-conspirators identified in the Holy Land Foundation terror funding trial. The judge in that case agreed that the list should never have been made public, but refused their request to scrub all the references to their links to the MB/Hamas from the trial transcript because the government had provided ample evidence to prove that these groups were indeed fronts for the MB/Hamas (the latter being a FTO.

    If this hurts anyone’s feelings, this is me playing the world’s smallest violin.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  426. What PH the 2nd and S57 said
    That is part of what makes this fight so difficult, all crime and much warfare assumes people want to not get caught and likely survive,
    These people motivated by their understanding of Islam (which is not some small percentage) do not care if they die or their families die.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  427. Noonan characterizes this primary season as a revolt of the “unprotected” versus the untouchable ‘protected’ connected and powerful:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-04/why-were-ungovernable-unprotected-push-back

    So it is not all that surprising that this forum, comprised of relatively successful curmudgeons living in comfort would totally dismiss the underclasses and present as sufficient reason for the latter to heel to what are merely a catalog of the upperclass’ preciosities.

    Like your effeminate ‘civility’ for one.

    DNF (ffe548)

  428. 422. “So now we just killed innocent people, for what?”

    None have the time, inclination or opportunity to determine your “fact”. The most that will be done is some prog will author a screed full of lies “proving” your fantasy that terrorists are not created by culture and relation but spawned by randomness in a godless universe.

    DNF (755a85)

  429. Rubio always attacks Trump first. Then Cruz follows. Why can’t Cruz attack first? He spent the last six months kissing Trump’s butt… he’s a butt kisser par excellence. Bravo to Rubio for stepping up to the page

    Victoria (2dd020)

  430. Its not enough to survive… One has to be worthy of survival

    All of you who have actually fought and killed in battle against communists or moslems who have displayed no regard for anyone’s life including their own raise your hand. My hand is up, how about yours?

    I’ve seen sweet little kids walk up to a group of Americans an detonate. I’ve also seen beautiful young VC prostitutes cut a grunt’s throat. None of this has an easy answer. But one thing is certain, if we eliminate the entire threat today our children and grandchildren won’t have to face theirs in the future. Moslems have been killing people, mostly Christians for over 13 centuries. Had they wiped them out a millennium ago we would no be having this conversation. Every man, woman and child killed today by a moslem is the direct result of the failure of the Crusades killing every last one then.

    423.423. …You presume that retaliating against his family will actually stop him. It probably won’t. He’ll believe they will go to heaven, and will have sacrificed for the cause.

    You probably believe the death penalty doesn’t deter murder. One thing is for sure, the murderer won’t repeat the offence. I’m willing to send the terrorists family to heaven if that’s what he believes as long as it assures mine don’t just yet.

    We all are the product of different life experiences. My experience dictates you don’t stop killing the enemy until they surrender unconditionally or they’re all dead. As far as I know Islam is still at jihad with us and they have not surrendered. Let the slaughter begin. The last man standing is the only one worthy of survival. That’s how it’s always been in history and nothing has changed but the players.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (eb7063)

  431. Rubio will not win his home state, but he did win the loon star caucus. Genius.

    mg (31009b)

  432. 426. …Like your effeminate ‘civility’ for one

    DNF (ffe548) — 3/4/2016 @ 3:34 pm

    Well, that’s Baron DNF von Klausewitz weighing in again.

    Thank you, DNF, for expressing your interest in national defense.

    And my effeminate civility. Or as I prefer to think of it, not violating the Law Of Armed Conflict.

    Bye the bye, the Donald has backed off of that, too, and announced he would be bound by it as President. So, does that changer your mind about the short-fingered girly man from Manhattan?

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  433. 351351.If people are afraid to call a fascist a fascist (and mean it pejoratively) then the fascists have already won.

    Fascist like racist has been so overused that it no longer has much specific meaning, it is just a general insult.

    James B. Shearer (0f56fb)

  434. Rev. Hoagie @429, I respect your combat experience. I have none. I have never pulled a trigger when the s*** hit the fan. I trained for it, a fact that I’m sure would shock prowlerguy. In fact, I was in charge of the ammo account we had with PACFLT (7.62 as we got hand-me-down M-14s which suited me just fine and 9mm for the Berettas) which is/was highly unusual for an intel command to even have an ammo account and while I wasn’t in charge of weapons training I coordinated with the Marines to provide us range masters for qualifications. Who did the actual instruction.

    But, no, never pulled a trigger when it counted.

    Despite that I’ll offer my opinion and you can decide if it counts. Your experience was in Vietnam. These jihadists are not Vietnamese of any stripe.

    You mention the sweet kids detonating themselves and the prostitutes slitting GI’s throats. That’s key. Because the jihadists aren’t going risk their own skins, they’re going to find crash test dummies to do the hard lifting. They really don’t give a s*** about anyone’s life except their own. You can’t listen to what they say. Watch what they do. Think, Hamas leadership hunkering down in the basement of a Hospital of Gaza, or staying away from Gaza entirely and living it up in a U.A.E. hotel while their flunkeys in Gaza and the Israelis go at it.

    They don’t care about the women and kids. They care about themselves. You have to go after them, which I’m all for.

    I will tell you this; you can use their women against them. What you don’t do, though, is kill them. What you do is capture them. Then put out the word that those ladies are on a USN ship in the IO and while you can maybe guarantee their chastity for a day or two after that, who knows what those sex crazed sailors and marines are gonna do?

    Of course, their families are perfectly safe but these s***heels don’t know that. And again, they don’t care about them. What these products of the Islamic “shame culture” care about is their precious pride. Their “honor.”

    That kind of s*** would drive them crazy, thinking of their wives being used as a party favor on an aircraft carrier the way they use Yazidi women. It makes them less than men in their own and their co-conspirators’ eyes.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  435. Kill the jihadists’ wives and children and their stock goes up among their compatriots. Because they can have four wives at a time, what’s one or two here and their when an “emir” can always raid a Nigerian village and get a replacement. As far as the kids go, they probably didn’t even know their names.

    But the fact their wives and children were killed is somehow to their credit. As if it represents some sacrifice the jihadists personally made; a notch on their belt.

    On the other hand, kidnap their wives and daughters and let the word get out the girls are happily working a stripper pole and partying it up with a bunch of horny infidels and their stock goes down.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  436. How about a Paul Ryan presidentialnpac?

    narciso (732bc0)

  437. 430. It’s always got to be all about you?

    The quoted ‘you’ was plural and the proscribed action interminable.

    DNF (755a85)

  438. Ace:

    Narrowcasting: One major objection I had to Palin is that she was narrowcasting to a small cohort of the overall electorate. Whether or not I agreed with her was besides the point — politically, she was inviable. You can’t flatter and validate one cohort exclusively, and denigrate others (both implicitly and explicity), and expect to have the broad appeal needed to win.

    For years I’ve been watching the GOP become more “selective” in its appeal, as Ian Faith would say, also narrowcasting and flattering and validating one cohort. It’s just a different cohort’s than Palin’s.

    It’s also, we’re now finding out, to some people’s deep chagrin, actually smaller than Palin’s.

    Politics requires some politics, fellas. For God’s sake. For God’s sake. This is basic stuff.

    Well guess what, your Conservative “The Republic can be saved” cohort hasn’t got a nomination in them, or a general election arm in arm with the GOPe.

    DNF (ffe548)

  439. 433. In a direct response to compassionate warmongering:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-04/former-uk-ambassador-syria-usuk-foreign-policy-doomed-even-corrupt

    The solution isn’t to radically increase our involvement finding justice for all god’s chillin.

    DNF (755a85)

  440. And the ewok turns out to be chipmunk sized,

    narciso (732bc0)

  441. Steve57 you are far more well versed and familiar with the moslem mindset than I so I must defer to you and your expertise. My experience in war is against communists only as I never set foot in the Middle East. But there is that mindset where both adversaries are willing to use women and children, even in deadly situations, in their battle plan. I would have to say from my experience with commies and my observation of moslems the commies are the less fanatical of the two. But even there you can probably recall the horribly lop-sided casualty reports in Vietnam. I was involved in a firefight where 347 NVA were killed and our casualties were: two killed 17 wounded. Period. That’s just crazy. But it wasn’t from the fanaticism of the soldiers but rather the incompetence of the officers. At least I think so.

    When it comes to killing and maiming civilians the U.S. leads the world. In the last war we actually decidedly won, WWII, we bombed the cities of our enemies and even our allies in Europe and bombed almost every major city in Japan, two with atomic bombs. IOW, we bombed and killed women, children, infants, the elderly, the infirm, the handicapped, hospitals, churches, Temples, clinics and orphanages. The end result was Victory. Their nations turned to rubble, we were the Last Man Standing.

    Perhaps we actually won that war because we were willing to do everything necessary to win? Including killing the families of their soldiers in the field. We can never beat fanatic Islamic terrorists until we make them more terrified of us than we are of them. We cannot quote the Marquis of Queensberry and watch them throw gays off buildings and behead Christians. They blow up a building, we blow up a city. On 9/12/01 had I been President, Medina would have ceased to exist. And the world would be informed that Mecca was next if ever moslems killed another American. And if need be I would take out every single city in Islam just as we did in Europe until they cried uncle. If you believe that too brutal then you must believe we should have not done it in WWII and therefore lost.

    Defeating the enemy is what makes a country worthy of survival. Ether that or you don’t deserve to survive and history dictates you won’t. Worthiness does not determine who survives, winning does. If we are going to bring the enemy into our country and call them “refugees” knowing that sooner or later they will kill us and our families then we are not going to win and we are not worthy to. They’ve already shown us a glimpse of the future in the Boston Marathon bombing.

    Finally, I ask: how many Christians are allowed in Mecca?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (eb7063)

  442. Hoagie that would be considered decapitation in cold war terms, and more then likely embiggen the conflict.

    narciso (a0e373)

  443. We can never beat fanatic Islamic terrorists until we make them more terrified of us than we are of them.

    Rev. Hoagie,
    What Steve57 is saying is that it is impossible to do that, at least with many of them.
    The leaders of Iran are happy to provoke a nuclear war, they see that as part of their apocalyptic vision.

    I think there is a lot we can do far short of that as a start, like not allowing Saudis and others outside of the country fund mosques that preach and teach Wahabist Islam as a simple start and calling it what it is.

    As I understand it, the Koreans and Chinese and Vietnamese kept coming because their own leaders would kill them if they didn’t fight, and their leaders maintained the will to fight because we did not fight for victory as in WWII as you said.
    But this is a different war with different motivation. Yes, the bad guys need to be stopped with as much force as is necessary, and we haven’t done that. Onlookers who are not yet radicalized need to see that they are losing, not winning, and we aren’t doing that.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  444. 440. Perhaps we actually won that war because we were willing to do everything necessary to win? Including killing the families of their soldiers in the field…

    Rev. Hoagie™® (eb7063) — 3/5/2016 @ 6:41 am

    We actually agree in this one respect. We must do everything that is necessary to win the war. But we can not do more than that. As in, engage in killing that is unnecessary. We didn’t kill people during WWII because they were related to soldiers in the field. In the case of Japan the justification was that the Japanese had turned war production into a cottage industry.

    Whether that was correct or not is a question for another day. The point is, no one who was involved in the campaign would have tried to justify it on the terms you are suggesting. Not Curtiss LeMay, not Chester Nimitz, not Bull Halsey, not Douglass MacArthur, not Ernest King, not George Marshall, whomever you wish to name. They were willing to do whatever it took to win the war, and God bless them. But they weren’t willing to do THAT. And neither should you.

    As you say, “you are far more well versed and familiar with the moslem mindset than I so I must defer to you and your expertise.”

    It is because I am well versed in it that I reject it as a belief system. If you would defer to my judgement than my advice to you is to do the same. reject it. You are coming uncomfortably close to adopting it, the kind of thinking that makes the San Bernardino and Paris massacres OK, when you toy with the idea of going after people’s families.

    Please. In all seriousness, stop.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  445. None of this has an easy answer.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (eb7063) — 3/4/2016 @ 4:42 pm

    Could not agree more.

    Setting aside moral and ethical considerations — from a pure, cold military science POV: our enemy is not an industrialized nation with fixed borders and centralized leadership. Their rank and file are not motivated by having peace, security and wealth. Neither are they organized in neat, uniform structures. They are ideologues acting fervently in the belief of their cult, which all but worships war and death.

    There are times when strategic necessity requires us to temporarily set aside our values (WWII), or even our Constitution (the Civil War), but this is not one of them. From a strategic POV, the tactics you suggest will fail to secure victory. Conventional warfare will not work (to include the tactics of LeMay and Sherman.)

    We are fighting an ideology, not a nation.

    If you are suggesting global genocide, that is not possible (think invading India, Malaysia, Jordan, etc.)
    If you are suggesting a regional genocide, that will not work because the enemy is not confined to regions.
    If you are suggesting the slaughter of thousands of families, that will not work because the remainder population would be enraged.
    If you are suggesting the slaughter of hundreds of families, see above.
    If you are suggesting the slaughter of tens of families, see above.

    You can create a martyr, but you cannot kill a martyr.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)

  446. I certainly don’t want to become “dangerously close” to anything that resembles a moslem. Also, I did not say we killed civilians in WWII because they were related to soldiers in the field, but they were. You say the Japanese turned the war into a cottage industry. You’ve heard of Rosie the Riveter. We did too. When the men go to war whoever is left works the support industries. That’s the way it’s always been. Hence, there is no exemption for women and children and the idea is foolish.

    If we are at war with Islamists, which we are, we are not at war with “that one over there” or “that one on 8th street” we’re at war with them all. They wear no uniform. They hail from several different nations. They come to America and hide their hatred behind a Constitutionally impenetrable wall of religious freedom. That makes them untouchable by our standards. Even people here do not want to admit they have to go. It feels un-American to want someone out because of their religion. But if we don’t we lose. You know better than I Steve57 they will never stop. We are not in some “new war with terrorism”. We are in the same war people have been fighting for over a thousand years.

    If this is where we are then we cannot win. Hell, we cannot even defend ourselves because throwing out a moslem is not the same as throwing out a Nazi. If true, our Constitution has become our death warrant.

    Pons Asinorum says we are fighting an ideology, not a nation. He’s wrong. National socialism, communism they are ideologies. Islam is a religion. How does a good American fight a religion? By not letting that religion live in America. As I asked: How many Christians in Mecca? The answer is ZERO. Christians are forbidden in Mecca and Medina. The moslems have enough sense to no allow their faith to be infested with outsiders who would do it harm.. Obviously Americans don’t. We really have turned the Constitution into a suicide pact.

    But I’m open minded t anything to rid us of the moslem killers. Have you guys any suggestions?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (eb7063)

  447. Rev. Hoagie, you’re a good man. No doubt.

    Just saying, we can exterminate these critters without the thinking we have to go after families. Under Obama we haven’t even gone after the “fighters” (noble jihadists raping Yazidis give me a f’n break).

    We can break their back without the talk about families. Let’s give that a try first. Because, we haven’t.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  448. 445. …But I’m open minded t anything to rid us of the moslem killers. Have you guys any suggestions?

    Rev. Hoagie™® (eb7063) — 3/5/2016 @ 2:04 pm

    Yes. Killing lots and lots of people. That’s my suggestion. I’m not against killing people, Hoagie. I’m just against killing the wrong people.

    Steve57 (1ace39)

  449. “I wish we could conduct an experiment where we had Donald Trump come into a debate stinking drunk, vomiting on Rubio and ultimately passing out 20 minutes in, left on stage while everyone else finished the debate by discussing issues.”

    Trump doesn’t drink.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  450. I’m just gonna agree with Steve, Rev. Especially:

    Rev. Hoagie, you’re a good man. No doubt.

    Islam is a religion, Islamic terrorism is an ideology, IMHO. I don’t have much of an answer Rev, but killing their families won’t work (again IMHO.)

    Here are some tactics:

    * Identify, isolate, terminate. McCrystal had this down to a science in Afghanistan. I would have never taken him off the battlefield, don’t care what name he called me.
    * Back the Kurds. They have hated Islamic terrorists for far longer than we have. They know how to fight. They would also help stabilize Iraq (and their tribe extends into Iran, might come in handy.)
    * Give them free stuff — food, clothing, housing, medicine, cell phones, tv’s….especially cell phones. The intel value is obvious and effective. Call this “Operation Detroit.”
    * Pshyops — we have to let the rank and file know that they are supporting the hanging of Muslim children and all the rest.
    * Nuclear “accident” in Iran. No choice, thanks to Obama. They cannot be allowed to get this weapon.

    Pons Asinorum (49e2e8)


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