Patterico's Pontifications

2/26/2016

Donald Trump Is Lying About IRS Audits

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:52 am

Donald Trump is lying about being audited by the IRS. I know this, not just because I know Trump is a serial liar, but also because I watched the debate and watched him say at least three different things about it.

Here is the transcript of last night’s debate — although, be warned: it misses some key moments, so the video is the final word. Trump said numerous contradictory things about being audited.

From 1:20:00 to 1:20:30 in this video:

TRUMP: I’ve been audited every year. Twelve years, or something like that. Every year they audit me, audit me, audit me.

Nobody gets audited — I have friends that are very wealthy people. They never get audited. I get audited every year. I will absolutely give my return, but I’m being audited now for two or three years, so I can’t do it until the audit is finished, obviously. And I think people would understand that.

Beginning at 1:28:17:

TRUMP: As — and believe me, I’ll win that case. That’s an easy case. Civil case. Number two, as far as the taxes are concerned, I’m being audited. It’s a very routine audit, and it’s very unfair, because I’ve been audited for, I think, over 12 years.

Every year, because of the size of my company, which is very, very large, I’m being audited — which is a very large company.

(BELL RINGS)

BLITZER: Thank you.

TRUMP: I’m being audited 12 years in a row, at least.

Now, until that audit’s done, and I don’t think anybody would blame me, I’m not giving it…

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: … what about the years you’re not being audited? Will you release those years?

BLITZER: Gentlemen, gentlemen, thank you.

TRUMP: (inaudible) I am being audited for those years.

CRUZ: Which years? Which years are you being audited?

TRUMP: (inaudible) last four or five years.

BLITZER: Gentlemen…

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: … we have, we have rules — we’re trying to obey these rules that all of you agreed.

So which is it? 12 years? Two or three years? The last four or five years?

Or . . . not at all? Could it be that Trump is simply making up the audits?

(Note how Blitzer jumps in to save Trump — as he did all night. Note also that the bit about the last four or five years is not in the transcript, which labels it “crosstalk.” That’s why I gave you the video and the timestamp. Thanks to David Shor on Twitter for that.)

As for the “not at all” theory, consider this. When Trump was interviewed by Hugh Hewitt before he announced, he tried to evade the question of releasing tax returns — but, when pressed, said he would do it . . . and didn’t mention audits at all:

Trump is lying about some aspect of this, as his multiple contradictory statements show — just like he is lying about Romney not releasing any tax returns until September 2012. (Romney released his 2010 return in January 2012.) Trump is lying — and thinks he can get away with it, I submit, because the IRS can’t release details about audits . . . because they are considered private. The huckster is using that to his advantage.

But Trump could release the audit notification letters. I wonder if any journalist will ask him to.

P.S. Bonus digression regarding Trump making assertions that people can’t check. Trump said last night:

I know the insurance companies, they’re friends of mine. The top guys, they’re friends of mine. I shouldn’t tell you guys, you’ll say it’s terrible, I have a conflict of interest. They’re friends of mine, there’s some right in the audience. One of them was just waving to me, he was laughing and smiling.

Trump almost certainly made that up. In the South Carolina debate, he was booed several times. Asked about it the next day, Trump said:

The pledge isn’t being honored by the RNC. Because those tickets were all special-interest people. And I know them! I’m looking in the audience: Some of them are friends of mine and yet they’re booing me because they’re having fun. The guy’s booing me and he’s laughing and he’s waving and he’s going, “Boo, boo.” And he’s waving at me.

How often does Trump have friends in the audience laughing and waving at him?

The thing is, you can’t falsify something like that. And Trump knows it.

So he makes it up.

358 Responses to “Donald Trump Is Lying About IRS Audits”

  1. Stop Trump! Alfred E. Newman for President.

    Bar Sinister (c62a89)

  2. How to deal with a bully?

    Well, folks have tried being above it all.

    The Orange Toupee’s behavior is so grating. There is utterly no way he could beat HRC, because his bullying style is all he knows. Remember Rick Lazio? And besides, how is he different from HRC?

    All I heard was his repeating himself. And I loved Rubio laughing about it.

    One thing bullies can’t handle is ridicule.

    What the braggy braggy bully bully Orange Toupee has tapped into is how most people feel they can’t say what they think anymore because of PC. What Glenn Reynolds calls “Because shut up.” So folks are frustrated. They see folks in DC not being direct. Kowtowing to nonsense.

    So they are attracted to people who speak up and out.

    But BBBBOT is basically a rude blustery bully, who BSs his way through life.

    Hopefully, Rubio and Cruz will simply hammer, over and over again, about program specifics. Anything that doesn’t include the word “yuge.”

    And it’s win-win. If BBBBOT has great detailed plans, maybe that will cement his support. And it will force other candidates to be more direct.

    But the silly bluster is ridiculous.

    Me, I loved what I saw of that debate. Because I deeply dislike and distrust people who see Biff Tannen as a role model.

    Simon Jester (2708f4)

  3. Barack Obama is such a pious and respectful public servant, he would never abuse his office for something as lowdown and crass as payback against the birther movement.
    I have Patterico’s word on it.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  4. I guess this is finally the set of facts that will convince his ‘bots to abandon him. They would never think of making up stuff to explain it as Obama hating on the noble Trump.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  5. Get real.

    Prominent people are targeted by the Feds all the time – they have to justify their existence. Remember Martha Stewart and Wesley Snipes?

    Better yet, remember Neil Bush? He had done nothing wrong, they said, but it had the appearance of impropriety. All would be forgiven, they said if Bush would sign an affidavit saying, while he had done nothing wrong, he would never do it again.

    The Feds pull this stuff all the time.

    formwiz (6b3a5a)

  6. There is still a way to stop Trump, even if he gets the GOP nomination. Since, as half his backers seem to want, it will destroy the GOP, the Real Republican Party ought to field its own candidate. This would have to be someone who did not contest any primary, to avoid “sore loser” laws.

    Such as Walker, Perry or even Romney. Also expected to run is the centrist Bloomberg, and if Sanders is the Dem nominee, one would expect Joe Biden to carry the flag for the Real Democrat Party.

    The point is not to win, but to finish in the top three while throwing the election into the House.

    Dirty pool? Sure. What’s your point?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  7. Anyone making over $1 million has an approximate 20% chance of an audit by the IRS. Someone with Trump’s profile simply increases that percentage. While Trump may be sketchy on the details, I have no doubt whatsoever he was audited at least once by the IRS (or NY Dept. of Taxation and / or NJ DOR) in that twelve year span.

    Roger Bournival (25a9e8)

  8. “If he hadn’t inherited $200 million, he’d be selling watches in Manhattan.”

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  9. There’s a lot of truth in what formwiz said. The IRS operates mainly through fear. There is no way it can go after even one in a thousand taxpayers in a meaningful way in reality, but the fear that it can keeps us participating in our voluntary tax system.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. The independent would have to win entire states, Kevin. Only Maine apportions its electoral votes. Which?

    nk (dbc370)

  11. Ah yes recall who slew the terrible Stewart dragon, what happened to him.

    narciso (9052c0)

  12. The Twilight zone aspect of this is that when you bring this stuff up it makes his wacky supporters MORE committed to him, not less. They figure it’s the GOPe trying to do him in and they’re not going to be fooled.

    Gerald A (86f35d)

  13. The third party candidate would have to win at least a few decently-sized states that Obama won in 2012, in order to ensure that all three candidates fail to reach the magical 270 electoral college votes.

    The Whigs employed a similar strategy in 1836 to try to stop Martin Van Buren. They ran regional candidates, whose cumulative popular votes actually exceeded Van Buren’s, but they fell short in prohibiting Van Buren from attaining the requisite electoral votes.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  14. If we take Trump at his most extravagant word (that he’s been audited for the last 12 years), then it started with Bush 43. No wonder Trump says Bush lied about Iraq. He bears a grudge because if the audits.

    Look, I’m waving and laughing. Boo hoo.

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. nk,

    It’s true the government, including the IRS, tries to intimidate high-profile and everyday people. Lois Lerner proved that. But Trump has a lot of financial red flags in his life and hustory. This is exactly the kind of person the IRS should be auditing, and every year if he doesn’t cooperate by providing accurate documentation.

    DRJ (15874d)

  16. Donald Trump Is Lying….

    All you need to say. The man is a seducer. He will say anything to get what he wants from you. Afterward he will throw you away.

    Random Numbers (d5cd81)

  17. If you don’t think Trump bears grudges and will use power to get even with his adversaries, I have 7 words for you: “The wall just got 10 feet higher.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  18. Oh my God you are actually rooting for the IRS.

    Oh you dirty hypocrite you.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  19. Is the Clinton Crime Foundation being audited?

    Captain Hate (1f9aff)

  20. One more mock-moment: Now Trump claims he was targeted because he is a strong Christian. Heh. Forget Lois Lerner. According to Trump, it was really Bush 43 who started the Christian targeting 12 years ago.

    DRJ (15874d)

  21. In a 5-way race, you only need a plurality to win. Party splits have led to fractured electoral tallies any number of times. Most recently in 1968, if you consider Wallace being a Democrat-alternative in the South.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  22. The Whigs employed a similar strategy in 1836 to try to stop Martin Van Buren

    The same strategy, by people who would become the Whigs, worked in 1824 against Jackson, as Clay and JQ Adams combined their strength in the House to beat Jackson who had won the popular vote.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  23. it was really Bush 43 who started the Christian targeting 12 years ago.

    “Those who control the present, control the past.”

    I just wish they weren’t so effing random about it.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  24. No let’s not forget Lois Lerner.

    It must be some kind of skulduggery for Donald Trump to (according to you) inherit a few million, invest it for a modest return (no more than he would get from mutual funds) and somehow that raises flags for a lifetime of tax audits.

    It’s not like he got his money fair and honest, working as a mid level functionary in the dept of Housing and Urban Developement.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  25. Oh my God you are actually rooting for the IRS.

    Oh you dirty hypocrite you.

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 2/26/2016 @ 8:57 am

    It must be some kind of skulduggery for Donald Trump to (according to you) inherit a few million, invest it for a modest return (no more than he would get from mutual funds) and somehow that raises flags for a lifetime of tax audits.

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 2/26/2016 @ 9:16 am

    papertiger lacks reading comprehension. Or just deliberately misstating the point of this. It’s hard to say which it is for sure but I think it’s the latter.

    Gerald A (86f35d)

  26. What will Hillary be able to use against Trump? We wont know what is in the bill until after we pass the bill…

    jrt for Cruz (bc7456)

  27. Christie endorses Trump.

    ropelight (24b805)

  28. Fatboy endorsed Obama too. Pigs of a sty.

    nk (dbc370)

  29. … wallow together.

    nk (dbc370)

  30. 27. Christie endorses Trump.

    ropelight (24b805) — 2/26/2016 @ 9:53 am

    Of course. A socialist with an R after his name is Christie’s kind of Republican.

    Over at Power Line Paul Mirengoff caught Trump in another lie last night.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/02/trumps-dishonest-attempt-to-hide-behind-justice-alito-on-abortion.php

    Steve57 (b12073)

  31. Forget about snipes, how about Charlie Rangel?

    narciso (732bc0)

  32. Looks like Christie is looking for VP.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  33. The Jersey dough boy needs a meal ticket.

    mg (31009b)

  34. Wait a minute. Christie doesn’t endorse Rubio? Ouch.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  35. Christie and Trump can join forces so that people won’t be able to cross a bridge to travel to a casino that went bankrupt.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  36. Announcing a governor endorsement on Friday? That would bury the story right?

    Except that Trump simply was very weak last night and needs to change the subject ASAP. No one took Trump seriously at the beginning of the process, but had they stomped on his immigration record he never would have made it this far.

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  37. Last night, in response to a question from Hugh Hewitt as to whether he would make a deal with liberals on religious liberty, Donald Trump decided to defend the judicial record of his sister, federal appeals court judge Maryanne Trump Barry, on abortion. In doing so, Trump displayed his characteristic ignorance and dishonesty.

    …It took me a moment to figure out what Trump was talking about. Judges don’t sign bills.

    …Perhaps Trump used the word “bill” instead of “opinion” in an attempt to skate past the fact that Alito did not agree with Barry’s odious position on abortion. Regardless, Cruz is right about Trump’s sister and Trump knows it.

    The woman Trump holds out as a model jurist is obscenely pro-abortion.

    How long have you been in favor of infanticide and serial liars, ropelight?

    R.e. Trump’s tax returns, his dodge that he can’t release them because he’s being audited is BS. He could release them regardless. After all, they’re already filed and he signed them under penalty of perjury. The IRS has them so there is no legal justification the public can’t see them as well.

    But if we take him at his word (hah! That’ll be the day) that he can’t release them while he’s being audited, and he gets audited every year so we can never see them, how about his tax returns for 2003 and earlier?

    There’s a simple reason he won’t release them. He’s lying about his net worth. It’s part of his reality star persona. He’s tough, he’s bold, he’s the world’s best negotiator, and because of his hyper alpha male personality he’s super rich.

    At least, that’s what he’d have you believe. And a lot of people get sucked in by that. But it’s important to remember that when he filed his malicious, frivolous defamation lawsuit against NYT reporter and author Tim O’Brien (Donald Trump v. Timothy L. O’Brien) he was demanding $5 billion dollars in damages.

    So he could have had a $5 billion dollar windfall if he had produced the tax records that would have proved he is actually the billionaire he claims he is, and not the mere millionaire O’Brien was able to document he is.

    It’s important to note a couple of things about the case. First, Trump avoided filing this lawsuit in Manhattan because it would have gone to a judge intimately familiar with financial matters and it would have been thrown out immediately, so he filed in New Jersey, family court no less, where Trump could drag it out and hopefully bully O’Brien into settling as he ran out money.

    But second and most relevant to the discussion here, O’Brien co-authored a piece in the NYT in 2004 which said the same thing. Then he wrote Trumpnation and published it in 2005. So we don’t need to see the returns he claims are under audit to know if Trump has lied all along about his net worth. The ones prior to to the twelve years he claims are under audit will do just fine. Because O’Brien didn’t actually come out and say Trump was lying, but he did accuse Trump of being nowhere near the billionaire he claimed to be in his work published and printed 12 and 11 years ago.

    But Trump wouldn’t produce the evidence that would have vindicated him even for $5 billion dollars in damages. One would think a man who claimed to be worth $5 to $6 billion dollars in 2004 would have an incentive to produce such evidence if it existed and double his net worth.

    But he didn’t. Because it doesn’t exist, and you can’t produce evidence that doesn’t exist. He’s lying about his net worth, as he lies about everything.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  38. #28, nk, Christie endorsed Romney at the RNC. He hugged Obama for aiding NJ when the hurricane hit. It’s disingenuous to claim Christie endorsed Obama in the context of Christie’s endorsement of Turmp for the presidency. If nk has another example in mind then he can revise and extend his remarks.

    ropelight (24b805)

  39. Trump is expanding his New York Values base to include…the Governor of New Jersey.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  40. Kevin M – I think forcing the election to the House is a viable strategy. The House would vote *by state* which means that it’s very likely that the Republican leadership candidate could win.

    I’ve also seen it argued that a Trump candidacy poses a huge downticket risk which could be ameliorated by an independent Republican candidacy.

    DRJ, at 17: yeah, terrifying, isn’t it?

    That said, i think the fact that he bears grudges and will use power to get even with his adversaries is actually part of his appeal. My sense is that a lot of his base are people who (a) hold grudges, (b) feel very hard done by, and (c) resent the fact that nobody has gone after the people who did them wrong — so the idea that Trump *shares* their grudges and *will go after* their enemies is very, very appealing.

    It’s also part of what makes him scary.

    Ropelight, at 38: Governor Christie *did his job for the people of his state*. The fact that he did so – despite his obvious dislike of President Obama – was to his credit.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  41. I’m not saying Trump was strong last night, but he wasn’t squashed either. I imagine to his supporters he’s all they want, and his neighbors on the Dais did not come off well either. It came off like an SNL skit and I wished it was an SCTV skit. You know the one. That’s the only “real good” ending I can think of now.

    SarahW (67599f)

  42. While I am certainly not defending Trump – I think he would make a terrible president,

    With the amount of his wealth, it is common to have numerous legal entities, especially to have a separate legal entity to own each piece of real estate. I would estimate that he has at least 100+ legal entities. It is entirely possible that at least one of these entities is undergoing some form of examination by the IRS. It is also likely that there are fairly constant IRS return processing and payment errors that have to be addressed by his CPA’s.

    That being said, given Trumps propensity to hypervenilate and boost and lie, that he is likely conflating a common IRS letter for correcting a processing error with a full blown audit.

    Joe - a CPA (debac0)

  43. Joe – a CPA (debac0) — 2/26/2016 @ 10:55 am

    No one is asking for the returns of any separate legal entities he has an interest in. He only has one personal return per year and it doesn’t matter if it’s being audited anyway.

    Gerald A (86f35d)

  44. I’ve got a guess (just a guess) about one of the things that might be in Trump’s tax returns; he lowballs and then negotiates with the IRS every year. I suspect this to be the case because he’s said so (though I can’t remember exactly where). This would also explain why he gets audited such a lot (if true).

    That sort of tactic only works for the really big fish who also have at least some somewhat subjective deductions, so it’s not the same thing as just paying as little as you legally can.

    As for Romney calling Trump out on the tax release issue, that’s got to be the eye roller of the week. I can’t think of anyone in America who has less standing on that issue than Romney. Romney’s lack of release was a big issue in the 2012 campaign, and he NEVER released all his returns, or the 10 years asked for. He released two years, and didn’t release the second year until September of 2012.

    I do agree that Trump should either release, or show the audit notification letters. However, *IF* he’s being audited and is in active dispute with the IRS, I think he’d be nuts to release those years until the negotiations are over (For just one reason, he’d certainly be asked about the numbers he was claiming, and would be legally ill advised to comment).

    Arizona CJ (da673d)

  45. Post 35: That was a humorous post.
    Speaking of humor,Mr. Cruz was not able to cross the bridge over the Potomac River ,when he was
    absent on a bill he help co-sponsor on auditing the Fed.

    mike191 (4c004d)

  46. So did Chris Krispy endorse Trump to finagle VP slot or free lifetime buffet at Trump-owned hotels?

    Colonel Haiku (af9684)

  47. Based on the quoted excerpts – didn’t see the debate nor the video – he doesn’t mention who and what kind of audit. Any business, especially larger corporations, have audits conducted on their own accounting every year. I’m not sure it would surprise me if he is referring to those types of audits (either willfully or ignorantly) and implying it is the IRS.

    Dilligas (389b02)

  48. Trump is on FOX and he’s on fire. He’s winning big time, not spending a dime.

    ropelight (24b805)

  49. Update on Drudge’s poll:

    TRUMP 53.53% (331,764 votes)

    CRUZ 20.66% (128,083 votes)

    RUBIO 17.99% (111,511 votes)

    KASICH 4.98% (30,836 votes)

    CARSON 2.84% (17,620 votes)

    Total Votes: 619,814

    ropelight (24b805)

  50. ropelight, are you still proud of your candidate after last night?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  51. I’m watching him at a rally in Fort Worth promising that he’s going to “open up those libel laws” so he can sue the New York Times when it writes a hit piece on him.

    Now, I’m not going to pretend that the New York Times doesn’t write hit pieces. But are you, ropelight, going to pretend that Trump can override the First Amendment, even if he could get Congress to go along with that?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  52. Beldar – of course he can override the first amendment. All it takes is the ability to appoint a few Supreme Court Justices, right?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  53. Trump should change his motto from “Make America Great Again,” to “Let’s Make Trump Shirts and Ties in America Again.”

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  54. Or Trump could go the Obama route to silence criticism, via weaponized IRS.

    Look at all the newly minted fans of that here.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  55. He’d need five appointments for that.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  56. papertiger, the only person I’ve seen on this site’s comments who seems to approve of and endorse the idea of weaponizing the IRS — or rather, continuing or exceeding Obama’s efforts in that — is you.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  57. I explain Trump’s popularity thusly:

    A drowning man will grab the blade of a sword.
    -Yiddish Proverb

    CrustyB (69f730)

  58. Maybe when he promises to “open up the libel laws,” Trump means that his sister the judge will sign a bill.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  59. Trump recently tweeted this,
    I hear the Rickets family, who own the Chicago Cubs, are secretly spending $’s against me. They better be careful, they have a lot to hide!

    That kind of cryptic language suggests a person who is accustomed to and comfortable with using tools of influence to punish people who cross him. It reminds me of the current occupant at 1600 Pennyslvania Ave.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  60. Look at all the newly minted fans of that here.

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 2/26/2016 @ 11:40 am

    If Trump is telling the truth, he’s been audited for 12 straight years. It’s hard to explain how that could be politically motivated. I don’t see anyone saying that Trump should be audited because of his political views. I see Trump refusing to disclose the kind of information Romney disclosed and people questioning Trump’s honesty about why.

    Papertiger, you’ve talked about Trump’s electability as a main issue. Don’t you agree Trump needs to clear this up now, before he’s nominated?

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  61. i feel bad for him being audited all the time

    he must be very brave

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  62. Trump wins crud punkass lose! Trump brings jobs back. Ayn randist free trader donors demand crud and punkass support sending jobs oversea or no $$$.

    trump for president (dd2c24)

  63. I didn’t hear a contradiction. I took him to mean that each of his last 12 or so returns have been audited, and each audit has taken 2-3 years, so his 2012, ’13, and ’14 returns are still tied up and subject to change and possible litigation.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  64. Trump wins crud punkass lose! Trump brings jobs back. Ayn randist free trader donors demand crud and punkass support sending jobs oversea or no $$$.

    trump for president (dd2c24)

    I realize you’re just a troll, but just as a public service reminder:

    Trump hired foreign workers, proudly, to do the jobs he says American’s didn’t want. This isn’t some years-old position from when Trump was donating to Hillary. This was yesterday.

    I think fixing our labor participation rate and the issue of immigration are deeply intertwined, and I think commenters like Bugg are right that this issue supercedes most issues because it amounts to importing an electorate.

    But Trump has you fooled. He has hired illegals, he has been fined for it, and he’s justified himself because you don’t want your jobs. Trump needs you now, but when he doesn’t need you, and needs to reach out to the mushy voters, or when he’s been elected (God Forbid), you will get amnesty.

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  65. If there was a market for sour grapes Patterico could make enough right now to fund this site for quite a while. It’s Trump by a landslide, and some commenters here need to start getting their heads right or the coming political reality is going to hurt like hell.

    There’s something happening here and you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr Jones? Trump is a genuine political phenomena, he’s a paradigm shift and he’s right under your nose, hiding in plane sight. I haven’t seen anything like him since JFK was running against Nixon. I’m talking about the general feeling in the country – he’s a breath of fresh air, optimistic fresh air to a disillusioned and swaddled nation.

    ropelight (24b805)

  66. Assuming he’s not cheating the taxpayers (big assumption, I know) audit or not there’s no reason to not produce at least a summary unless that summary reveals how much of his wealth and income is hot air. I was surprised Hewitt didn’t remind Trump he’d already said he’d be releasing his returns in the next couple months. So how’s the audit gonna get done that fast?

    Read a piece this morning that asks 3 simple questions every Trumpster should think about:

    (1) Don’t you get the strange feeling that this has all been suspiciously easy?

    (2) Don’t you find it odd that Trump, who habitually says the harshest, crudest, vilest things he can think of about anyone he perceives as an opponent or threat, never substantively criticizes the key players in the establishment at all?

    (3) If you were Rove, McConnell, and the rest of the GOP elite, and you wanted to end the growing grassroots threat to your power and influence once and for all, how would you go about it?

    Now I still think as a friend on Bubba and supporter Pelosi/Reid a Trump vs Hillary contest is a no lose situation for the Clinton-friendly power structure and favor factory in Washington and NY, but what do I know?

    crazy (cde091)

  67. I can’t think of anyone in America who has less standing on that issue than Romney. Romney’s lack of release was a big issue in the 2012 campaign, and he NEVER released all his returns, or the 10 years asked for. He released two years, and didn’t release the second year until September of 2012.

    “The 10 years asked for”?! Asked for by whom? Since when is 10 years some sort of standard? What’s wrong with two years? And how could he release the 2011 return before it was done?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  68. Trump should change his motto from “Make America Great Again,” to “Let’s Make Trump Shirts and Ties in America Again.”

    That’s easily done — he can invade and annex Mexico!

    Milhouse (87c499)

  69. A drowning man will grab the blade of a sword.
    -Yiddish Proverb

    I doubt that this is actually a proverb in Yiddish. Maybe Arabic.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  70. Governor Soprano endorses Trump.

    “Woke up this morning… got a blue moon in your eyes…” eh, Marco?

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  71. It’s Trump by a landslide, and some commenters here need to start getting their heads right or the coming political reality is going to hurt like hell.

    Romney won the nomination last round. I made my peace that the GOP wasn’t really my party then, and realized the democrats were probably going to win the general.

    It’s a similar, albeit more extreme situation this round. Trump is the frontrunner, and everyone here knows this. I do not believe in taking advantage of others or cheating people, so I can’t support him or his crony version of government. It’s that simple and a matter of self respect. The democrats would probably win if Trump were nominated. The world will go on.

    he’s a paradigm shift and he’s right under your nose, hiding in plane sight. I haven’t seen anything like him since JFK was running against Nixon. I’m talking about the general feeling in the country – he’s a breath of fresh air, optimistic fresh air to a disillusioned and swaddled nation

    You’re talking about Obama, right?

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  72. 65. If there was a market for sour grapes Patterico could make enough right now to fund this site for quite a while. It’s Trump by a landslide, and some commenters here need to start getting their heads right or the coming political reality is going to hurt like hell.

    There’s something happening here and you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr Jones? Trump is a genuine political phenomena, he’s a paradigm shift and he’s right under your nose, hiding in plane sight. I haven’t seen anything like him since JFK was running against Nixon. I’m talking about the general feeling in the country – he’s a breath of fresh air, optimistic fresh air to a disillusioned and swaddled nation.

    ropelight (24b805) — 2/26/2016 @ 12:28 pm

    There are certain political phenomenons I don’t want to be a part of, such as your Donald’s cult of personality. I don’t care if he wins; that just proves that there’s a sucker born every minute, and there are now enough suckers to elect Trump.

    You’re right about one thing, though. If Trump goes all the way the coming political reality is going to hurt like hell. But not people like me. It’s going to hurt the suckers like you who fell for the con job.

    These political phenomena always end badly. Too bad you never learned that, ropelight.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  73. I thought the Daily Beast put up a funny clickbait headline about Christie’s endorsement of Trump. It says, “Bully Endorses Blowhard for President.”

    Then I thought to myself, “They didn’t intend that to be funny.”

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  74. ropelight, are we no longer on speaking terms, or are you just ducking my questions that were addressed to you by name?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  75. This website has gone full little green footballs deleting comments and suspending names.

    Gfy pat

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b)

  76. Patterico thinks trump is evil and must be stopped yet in 2008 Obama was just a nice guy who accidentally sat in a r4cist church for 20 years.

    Makes sense.

    Just change your party affiliation to socialist already

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b)

  77. 70. …The democrats would probably win if Trump were nominated. The world will go on.

    he’s a paradigm shift and he’s right under your nose, hiding in plane sight. I haven’t seen anything like him since JFK was running against Nixon. I’m talking about the general feeling in the country – he’s a breath of fresh air, optimistic fresh air to a disillusioned and swaddled nation

    You’re talking about Obama, right?

    Dustin (2a8be7) — 2/26/2016 @ 1:03 pm

    The members of the Trump cult are blind to reality, Dustin. No doubt they’ll never admit they made a mistake, as so many Obama cult members still refuse to.

    By the way, in that Trump video you linked to @64? Trump was lying there, too, when he said he has to hire foreign workers for seasonal hospitality jobs because those are among the jobs Americans just won’t do.

    He had 300 American citizens/legal residents apply for those jobs at that Palm Beach resort. Trump only hired 15 out of those 300 applicants. He hires foreign workers because he can pay them less, pure and simple.

    I’m sure you knew that, but there’s a lot of people here that need to know Trump is playing them for fools.

    Not that I expect facts to matter to the Trumpsters. They haven’t so far. I don’t see that changing.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  78. Make America Great Again = Hope and Change.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  79. We can defeat ISIS if we sue them!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  80. 75. Patterico thinks trump is evil and must be stopped yet in 2008 Obama was just a nice guy who accidentally sat in a r4cist church for 20 years.

    Makes sense.

    Just change your party affiliation to socialist already

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b) — 2/26/2016 @ 1:13 pm

    There are a lot of us who took issue with Pat for that when he said it in 2008.

    We saw Obama for what he was then. We see Trump for what he is now.

    I don’t harp on it because I see no reason to beat a dead horse. But here’s a thought; maybe Pat learned from that experience, which is why he sees through Trump now.

    P.S. The people who need to change their party registration to Socialist are the Trumpsters. I have a lot of problems with the Republicans, but not once did I think the problem with the GOP was that they didn’t cut enough deals with Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid. That the GOP nominee wasn’t close enough to Up Chuck Schumer, like Trump proudly claims to be. I never thought the problem with the GOP was that they weren’t enthusiastic supporters of socialized medicine and public funding for Planned Parenthood, which according to the front runner the Trumpsters love so much who says PP does “wonderful things.” Yeah, like infanticide.

    But apparently the Trumpsters think that was the problem with the GOP, because that’s what their candidate is saying.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  81. there’s a lot of people here that need to know Trump is playing them for fools.

    Not that I expect facts to matter to the Trumpsters. They haven’t so far. I don’t see that changing.

    Steve57 (b12073) — 2/26/2016 @ 1:14 pm

    If, God forbid, Trump actually wins the presidency, I think you’re right that his fans who voted for him on the issue of immigration would quickly realize they were conned. That is quite a tough issue for politicians, and it would take a special stalwart to actually fix it. One reason I like Cruz. It’s not time for a half-measure or a stopgap. We need to fix things.

    I won’t be laughing at ropelight at that point. Ropelight just wants what’s best for this country on a critical issue. A whole lot of people believed in Rubio, or a long list of politicians before that, who fell short. I think Trump will be especially bad, sure.

    Personally, I think this is an academic conversation. Trump can’t beat Hillary. She’s a very weak candidate, and once again the GOP could snatch defeat from a winning hand. Bottom line is that this party is indeed badly fractured. A lot of that is because the democrats have masterfully played wedge issue politics. A lot of that is because the Tea Party phenomenon was dismantled and what was left wasn’t very authentic.

    After Ross Perot, the GOP was scared straight for a little while. Perhaps that will happen now?

    in 2008 Obama was just a nice guy who accidentally sat in a r4cist church for 20 years.

    Makes sense.

    Just change your party affiliation to socialist already

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b) — 2/26/2016 @ 1:13 pm

    Oh, you guys. So you think everyone who attended that church is evil? I don’t believe everything my pastor says. Patterico was talking about moving past politics. Sad that this is held against him for almost a decade now. You don’t have to hate democrats to understand the problems in our society. People can be wrong yet still be decent people.

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  82. We saw Obama for what he was then. We see Trump for what he is now.

    I don’t harp on it because I see no reason to beat a dead horse. But here’s a thought; maybe Pat learned from that experience, which is why he sees through Trump now.”

    You might have a point if patterico didn’t change the words g@@d man into something that gets your comment thrown into moderation and deleted. Like saying g@@d man is a curse word. So you can’t even quote his own words. Go ahead try to type it. I used @ symbols to get around it or my comment wouldn’t even be showing

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b)

  83. Tell me how he’s learned anything or done anything other than gone full little green footballs by changing his own damn words into something that gets your comment thrown into moderation and never posted?

    HIS OWN SITE NOW LISTS HIS OWN QUOTE AS A CURSE WORD

    How can you trust anything he says now?

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b)

  84. 5. Get real.

    Prominent people are targeted by the Feds all the time – they have to justify their existence. Remember Martha Stewart and Wesley Snipes?

    Better yet, remember Neil Bush? He had done nothing wrong, they said, but it had the appearance of impropriety. All would be forgiven, they said if Bush would sign an affidavit saying, while he had done nothing wrong, he would never do it again.

    The Feds pull this stuff all the time.

    formwiz (6b3a5a) — 2/26/2016 @ 8:18 am

    Speaking of getting real, why would a “smart” businessman file a lawsuit against a reporter/author in 2009, claiming that the reporter/author defamed him by calling him a millionaire instead of a billionaire, when he “knew” he couldn’t provide the tax documents to vindicate himself because, IRS audits?

    That’s a pretty stupid thing to do for a guy the Trumpsters think is such a genius businessman. I’m sure his lawyers don’t work for cheap. Even I know that would be a YUUUUGE waste of money if, as Trump wants us to believe, while he’s being audited he can’t release his financial records.

    He didn’t just lose that defamation case against Tim O’Brien. The judges humiliated him. They ripped him a new one, called him a liar.

    So while we’re all getting real, ‘splain that. Trump filed a lawsuit he had to know he couldn’t win, if as he now asserts he already knew he couldn’t provide any evidence on his own behalf to prove his claim of defamation. Since he’s perpetually being audited.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  85. Mr Pink,

    That’s because thousands of spammy comments tried to derail threads over that.

    It’s bizarre you’re talking about it now, when Obama isn’t running for office. You’re mad that you don’t have an answer to this criticism of Trump on lying about his tax documents. The IRS says he can release them, btw.

    So instead of talking about that, you say you’re mad that Patterico criticized Trump, but offer no reason why. You just start trying to spam the discussion thread about something you didn’t understand seven years ago. This is all part of a pathetic one sided blog war. Patterico hasn’t wanted to participate in that in years.

    So you don’t like that Patterico argued against Obama while preserving the possibility he’s a good person, seven years ago, before he actually really did anything significant. OK. We get it. That is a tiny thing and it was a long time ago. Get a life.

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  86. Mr Pink, the nurse says they’re going to begin the bingo game in the activities room in five minutes. Dr. Smith says you’ve demonstrated enough progress to be allowed to play.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  87. So you don’t like that Patterico argued against Obama while preserving the possibility he’s a good person, ”

    Why isn’t he doing the same thing now? There was more than enough evidence Obama was a lying pos socialist back then but he went out of his way bending over to not come to that conclusion. Now that trump is running he’s trying to run him down worse than he ever ran Obama down. Why? I’d ask him but he’d lie as evidence by him making his own website list quoting him as a curse word.

    Mr Pink (a5ab4b)

  88. 80. I won’t be laughing at ropelight at that point. Ropelight just wants what’s best for this country on a critical issue.

    Dustin (2a8be7) — 2/26/2016 @ 1:28 pm

    The Trumpsters claim to want straight talk. Nothing PC. They want someone who speaks the truth no matter who it hurts. They apparently like it when Trump insults people, calling them losers or political hacks.

    I’m just testing that claim. Do they really want that, or are we supposed to pull our punches and protect their delicate feelings?

    Steve57 (b12073)

  89. Steve, that’s a good point, but people tend to stick up for their own. Trump’s been nasty to a lot of people, and to Trump’s fans that’s because it’s deserved after years of lying and betrayal. Being nasty in reply seems like fair play, but to Trump’s fans, it seems like the betrayal was due to contempt. Not saying you’re wrong. I don’t think you are, but this is a good example of two sides talking past eachother. Trump’s fans don’t trust anyone to be honest, so they tune out information they don’t like. Trump really did latch onto this movement at just the right moment.

    Why isn’t he doing the same thing now? There was more than enough evidence Obama was a lying pos socialist back then but he went out of his way bending over to not come to that conclusion.

    Pink, we’re in the middle of the GOP primary. You’re commenting on a thread that shows Trump’s excuses for not disclosing information are dishonest. This thread is not about Obama. Pat has changed his mind on Obama being a good fella, but that was years ago and it’s not the topic of this discussion. You are mistaken that Patterico bent over backwards defending obama. He was a die hard critic of Obama, but offered an aside when the election was lost to give the guy a chance in good faith.

    Remember when W won, and the left wouldn’t give him a chance? I believe this hampered our war efforts, and led to the loss of more troops than otherwise would have fallen, and eventually led to abandoning the successes they fought and died for. Patterico is better than that. You should be too. Instead of foaming at the mouth that the guy you voted against won, give him a chance as a patriot who disagrees with you, be happy you’re in a free republic, and if he turns out to be terrible, you can point it out as an honest person instead of as a political hack. That’s why Patterico’s criticisms of Obama, which are very numerous, have more credibility than yours might have, as you’re not even talking about any specific issue, but that Obama is ‘obviously’ a “POS”. Grow up.

    As I’ve explained to you, politely, your attack is a repeat spam/troll intended to derail discussion threads. Of course it’s moderated. At this point ten percent of the thread is you whining about this nothing-burger and responses to it, instead of talking about whether Trump’s claims about his tax documents are honest ones.

    I notice you’re still not talking about that. Is that because you can’t?

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  90. I’m talking about the general feeling in the country – he’s a breath of fresh air, optimistic fresh air to a disillusioned and swaddled nation.

    Assuming the air is coming from Mordor.

    Just because the country is disillusioned and run by an incompetent buffoon (who your savior SUPPORTED!) is no reason to choose a less competent megalomaniac buffoon. Obama, for all his faults, understands the triad and most of the other policies of the country. He SURE as FUDGE knows that judges don’t pass bills. I bet even the Hon Hank Johnson knows more about policies and government than Trump, even if he worries about Guam capsizing.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  91. Mr Pink is as he says: like Trump he’s a pinko at heart.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  92. Mr. Pink @86, I actually agree with you that there was more than enough evidence Obama was a lying POS socialist back in 2008. I read his platform on his campaign website. In particular the part about he was going to help small businessmen like me. When in fact while he was advertising it helping me, he was promising to knee cap me.

    Which is why I was saying back in 2008 that anyone who expected Obama to put money in their pockets was a fool. By that I mean the middle class; his big money donors could always count on Obama putting money in their pockets.

    And why I was saying Obama only wanted to become President of his enemies so he could help his friends. Very Chicago, that.

    Where I part company with you is the idea that somehow being wrong about Obama in 2008 somehow obligates a person to be wrong about Trump in 2016. That just doesn’t follow.

    Also, I said what I had to say in 2008 when it was appropriate. Basically, let’s not get carried away and give Obama credit for something that he’s never demonstrated. But I don’t keep dredging it up when it’s no longer appropriate or topical because, what am I? And what are you? Pat’s mother-in-law?

    “Remember how you were wrong twenty years ago about…!” (wagging finger in the face.)

    Give it a rest.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  93. Since Icy isn’t around…

    Dead at 90: Alfred E Mann, whose companies invented or greatly improved pacemakers, insulin pumps and cochlear implants and founder of the almost-defunct MannKind which succeeded in getting a inhalable insulin to market, but ran out of cash doing so.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  94. the difference is trump does not have anti western, anti law enforcement philosophy that led to this near kangaroo court,

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/02/lies-about-zimmerman-trial-just-keep-coming/

    narciso (732bc0)

  95. what are you? Pat’s mother-in-law?

    “Remember how you were wrong twenty years ago about…!” (wagging finger in the face.)

    THANK YOU. Wish I could have put it that way.

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  96. Mr Pinkie is a broken effin record.

    JD (2a3bb3)

  97. 13 Cruz Supporter:

    The Whigs employed a similar strategy in 1836 to try to stop Martin Van Buren. They ran regional candidates, whose cumulative popular votes actually exceeded Van Buren’s…

    They didn’t even accomplish that – Van Buren had 50.79% of the popular vote. (They did limit Van Buren’s electoral votes so that his whole margin of victory was the EV of Virginia, then the 3rd largest state. When the Virginia electors abstained from voting for Van Buren’s running mate, Richard M. Johnson, he was left one vote short of a majority, and became the only Vice President elected by the Senate.)

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)

  98. Thank you, Dustin @94, I guess I have a gift.

    As an aside, I was slightly off on my numbers on Trump’s Palm Beach resort. But only slightly.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/26/trump-i-needed-foreign-workers-to-do-the-part-time-jobs-americans-wont-do/

    In Palm Beach County, Tom Veenstra, senior director of support services at CareerSource, a job placement service, took issue with Mr. Trump’s contention that he could not staff his clubs with locals. “We have hundreds of qualified applicants for jobs like those,” he said.

    After a report by Reuters in July about Mr. Trump’s use of guest workers, executives from Mar-a-Lago met with recruiters from Mr. Veenstra’s agency, promising to request local workers for 50 positions.

    But Mar-a-Lago sent over just a single job request, for a banquet server. Mr. Veenstra said CareerSource referred four applicants to the club, and one of them got the job.

    Since then, Mr. Veenstra said, “we haven’t received any other job orders.”

    Per the Times, 296 locals either applied or were referred for more than 500 seasonal jobs at Mar-a-Lago. Just 17 were hired. A few who weren’t told the Times they were holding out for permanent jobs with benefits but one claimed she was eager for a position and never heard back. Trump says that’s because many applicants aren’t qualified for the positions. Not qualified to be … waiters and housekeepers? What sort of hole would you need to have in your education to make you unfit to deliver drinks? I thought this guy loves the “poorly educated.” Did he mean Mexico’s poorly educated?

    There’s more to Trump’s mendacity on this issue, which you can read at the link. But Allahpundit asks and answers the important question.

    None of this matters to anyone who’s leaning Trump, right? Right. Just checking.

    Of course not. Since when do facts get in the way of cult of personality?

    Steve57 (b12073)

  99. Speaking of Trump’s mendacity…

    http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/26/the-trumpiest-soundbite-yet-im-going-to-make-it-easier-to-sue-the-media-for-purposely-negative-and-horrible-and-false-articles/

    You’ve got to remember what the Donald means by “horrible and false articles” are articles that very well may be true, the reporter has documentary evidence that they believe their reporting to be factual and accurate, and Trump can’t disprove.

    He’s still upset that he couldn’t squeeze $5 billion in damages out of Tim O’Brien. Because, Trump is a lying thug who thinks might makes right. Truth has nothing to do with him getting his way.

    …What he probably meant by “opening up” libel laws is that he wants to lower the standards for public figures so that he can sue newspapers whenever they get a fact about him wrong, even if it’s a good-faith mistake and they really did try to get it right. Or maybe he wants to go further than that and be able to sue whenever they publish a fact that really damages him, whether it’s true or not. That’s one way to “open up” the law: Eliminate the idea that truth is an absolute defense to libel. Either way, a would-be president pining openly for a change that would make it easier for him to silence the media is pure banana-republic garbage, the sort of thing that would give the right a case of the vapors if Obama had said it on the trail in 2008. But because Trump’s pitching it at right-wing populists, who despise the press, it’ll be received as a heck of an idea.

    The best part of this, though, is how it typifies the Trump phenomenon in that he’s using populism as a vehicle for his own fatcat interests. Ninety-nine percent of the population will never have to worry about being libeled by the media; only the mega-rich and mega-famous like Trump, who has endless resources to combat negative reporting about him, give a wet fart about the defamation standards for public figures. As a friend joked on Twitter, “If only there was a way for billionaires to control the media.” He’s using the adulation of his fans to build populist momentum against his own hyper-elitist pet peeves…

    Anybody rooting for Trump is a sucker.

    This election is coming down to, who do you want for dictator? The leftists who long for a dictator are split on whether it should be Sanders or Hillary!

    The righties who long for a dictator are united that it needs to be Trump.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  100. Rubio was fantastic. Loved seeing spray tanned Trump go tomato red when Rubio got under his skin!

    Victoria (45bcb3)

  101. well except the fellow in link 93, but he doesn’t matter,

    narciso (732bc0)

  102. #73, Beldar, I’ve had guests and been in and out for the last several days. My time for commenting has been catch as catch can. I haven’t read through the comment strings. You may have noticed I wasn’t commenting during the most recent debate, although I did chime in this morning.

    Forgive me for missing your questions. Ask again or point me in the right direction and I’ll do my best. I like and respect you and I mean no disrespect. Give me another chance.

    ropelight (24b805)

  103. Not qualified to be … waiters and housekeepers? What sort of hole would you need to have in your education to make you unfit to deliver drinks?

    I spent 40 years in the hospitality business and I’ll tell you right now about 3 out of 10 applicants are qualified to be waiters, housekeepers, bartenders or any other position that this guy seems to look down on. First of all, they have to SHOW UP. Secondly they need to be clean, odor free and disease free. On can’t have a dirty stinkin’ tuberculin handling your food. Third, they have to SHOW UP on day two. You would be surprised how few people are capable of such basic qualifications. If they have these then we move on to personable, polite and well mannered, the trilogy of greeting the public. That’s a whole other set of skills so yeah, it’s hard to hire even among a hundred applicants who speak English.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  104. I spent 40 years in the hospitality business and I’ll tell you right now about 3 out of 10 applicants are qualified to be waiters, housekeepers, bartenders or any other position that this guy seems to look down on.

    You can find those 3 out of 10 among Americans or legal residents, Hoagie. I’ve spent 20 years in the hospitality business and never once did I have to resort to hiring foreign workers.

    But that isn’t what Trump is lying about. Watch the video. He’s saying it’s impossible to find Americans willing to take these jobs. There are plenty of Americans willing to take these jobs.

    That’s a whole other set of skills so yeah, it’s hard to hire even among a hundred applicants who speak English.

    So you think resorting to Eastern Europeans like Romanians, which is what Trump did, who can’t even speak English is going to yield a better crop of applicants? How do you think foreign workers who can’t speak English fluently rank on the “personable” scale?

    These foreign workers are only better than Americans in one regard; they’ll work for less. Just like those Polish construction workers Trump hired to build the Trump Tower were willing to work for 1/3 the union wage Trump would otherwise have had to pay.

    Which is why Trump’s resort managers wouldn’t even interview Americans for these jobs to find out if they could and would do the job. Trump’s managers don’t even want to bother to find out if the Americans applying for these jobs have the qualities they should be looking for.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  105. Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/26/2016 @ 2:21 pm

    Yes, that is so sad. Not to sound callous, but my best trade was to sell out of MNKD the day Afrezza was approved. I am shocked to to see the stock around $1! I believe I will wager a small sum on its rebound.

    felipe (56556d)

  106. Beldar, I find questions addressed to me at #s50 and 51. I’ve never considered the issue of being proud of a candidate. Am I proud of Trump? I guess so, I’m not ashamed of him if that’s what you’re asking. I’m not proud of you, but I respect you and I value our exchanges. I’ll give it some thought and if you’re still interested in a few days, ask me again.

    No, I don’t think any president can legitimately override the 1st amendment. Although some constitutional provisions (the 10th amendment) seem to have faded into insignificance. Like the natural born citizen limitation on presidential eligibility. Or the legitimacy of the Civil War amendments. Or the continuing infringement of our rights under the 2nd amendment.

    If there’s anything else or you’re unsatisfied with the above let me know and I’ll have another go.

    ropelight (24b805)

  107. Another Trump lie from last night’s debate.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/trump-busted-video-shows-he-blatantly-lied-on-healthcare-in-debate/article/2584300

    Donald Trump claimed during Thursday’s Republican debate that he never said that government should pay for everybody to be covered by healthcare, but that’s exactly what he said in a “60 Minutes” interview last fall.

    During the debate, Sen. Ted Cruz asked Trump a direct question: “Donald, true or false, you’ve said the government should pay for everyone’s healthcare?”

    Trump responded, “That’s false.”

    …Scott Pelley: The uninsured person is going to be taken care of how?

    Donald Trump: They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably—

    Scott Pelley: Make a deal? Who pays for it?

    Donald Trump: —the government’s gonna pay for it.

    Not like I expect the fact that Trump lies about everything will make a difference to the Trumpsters. They clearly don’t care. Maybe like Hillary! supporters they’re proud of the fact their candidate is a brazen, pathological liar. Dunno.

    But I do know that given Trump’s past frivolous, malicious lawsuits and his threats to Cruz for putting video of Trump saying things he’d rather hide from people now, this is why he wants to change the libel laws. He thinks it’s “libel” to show he’s lying by playing video of himself that proves he’s lying.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  108. well unless the courts revisit, NY Times v. Sullivan, I find that unlikely, it’s a throw away line, would be challenge the licensing of Times and Bezos owned properties,

    narciso (732bc0)

  109. I have pictures of Obama and Christie, ropelight. Whole lot of thanking going on. Tremendous thanking. Really hyuuuge thanking.

    nk (dbc370)

  110. Chris Krispy dropped out and gained 30 lbs. This endorsement is a yuuuuge get for Trump.

    Colonel Haiku (75fedf)

  111. #96 Rich Rostrom,

    When I wrote in #13 that Van Buren failed to get a simple majority in the popular vote in 1836, I had gotten my info at http://www.270towin.com
    Here’s the numbers they provided,
    Van Buren 762,678
    Harrison 735,651
    White 146,107
    Webster 41,201
    Mangum (undetermined number)

    Although I wasn’t a math major, you can see where I was misled. Based on your comments, I did further research, and have discovered that Harrison’s numbers were incorrect at the 270towin.com website, where they overstated his popular vote by about 185,000. I don’t know how they did that, but they somehow did. Thanks for the correct info.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  112. I guess Krispy doesn’t believe what he’d said on more than one occasion: “A vote for Trump is a vote for Hillary Clinton.”

    Colonel Haiku (75fedf)

  113. Does the Jersey pumpkin know anything about tax evasion?

    mg (31009b)

  114. Perturbed a few of my table tennis commies with my Cruz /16 t-shirt and my counter loop.

    mg (31009b)

  115. #108, nk: I have pictures of Obama and Christie, ropelight. Whole lot of thanking going on. Tremendous thanking. Really hyuuuge thanking.

    But no endorsement?

    ropelight (24b805)

  116. Most of you have paid attention to the issues that matter.
    Most of you have diligently followed the debates and who has mastered.
    Most of you will vote their conscience this coming 1st of March.

    Guess what…doesn’t matter, Trump will get the nomination come this summer.
    Most of you need to reconcile the coming ugly reality…or if you prefer, be shocked and wonder why and what now after the fact.

    Now is the time to plan a response for a President Trump.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  117. You can find those 3 out of 10 among Americans or legal residents, Hoagie. I’ve spent 20 years in the hospitality business and never once did I have to resort to hiring foreign workers.

    I agree. I never had a problem hiring Americans even for my restaurants in San Antonio. I misread what was said. I thought he was saying the job was so unskilled any a$$ could fill it. If you were in the business you know that’s just not true.

    Rev. Hoagie™® (f4eb27)

  118. The irs is so so corrupt I hope President Mr. The Donald I shows no mercy on they heads what’s to add?

    happyfeet (e75030)

  119. But no endorsement?

    A different kind of lip service. Did you see the pictures where they’re walking on he beach with their arms around each other’s waists? Their concert date for Springsteen?

    nk (dbc370)

  120. I

    happyfeet (e75030)

  121. Mr Happyfeet, if The Donald hadn’t inherited $200 million, do you think he would be selling watches in Manhattan? Or do you think he would he have moved to Philadelphia to ply his trade?

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  122. But no endorsement?

    ropelight (24b805)

  123. Your fellow American, with heart and clear conscience, is about to vote Trump as the republican standard bearer. It matters not that he is a democrat by any reasonable definition, has baggage comparable to Clinton, is unworthy of of office he seeks.

    In the primary and in the general, he will be voted into office by overwhelming majority. Shake your fists at the heavens, quote the proven facts of his faults, rationalize the preferable alternative choices.

    The reality will be President Trump…what now?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  124. “21st CENTURY HEADLINES: Woman arrested at JFK for smuggling half pound of cocaine in vagina from Jamaica.”

    Johnny Too Bad Bonnie Too Bad

    Walking down teh tarmac
    With a half pound in your cooze
    Bonnie Too Bad (woe-oh-oh)
    Walking down teh tarmac
    With teh powder up your geech
    Bonnie Too Bad (woe-oh-oh)
    You’re just a-packin’ and a-stackin’
    And a-cootin’ and a-tootin’
    You know you’re too bad (too bad)
    You’re just a-packin’ and a-stackin’
    And a-cootin’ and a-tootin’
    You know you’re too bad (too bad)

    Walking down the ramp
    With a party in your snooch
    Bonnie Too Bad (woe-oh-oh)
    Walking down the ramp
    With teh yayo in your yam
    Bonnie Too Bad (woe-oh-oh)

    Colonel Haiku (75fedf)

  125. what does that even mean, if lurch’s father hadn’t married into the forbes shipping dynasty, maybe he would have learned humility, yeargh dean, might have gotten a clue,

    narciso (732bc0)

  126. Two kinds of dealers, Col. Those who use fork lifts and those who don’t.

    mg (31009b)

  127. Don’t go Llamas With Hats with me, ropelight. “Carl, I didn’t kill him. I just stabbed him in the chest 38 times. Then I cut off his head. Then his hands. Then I cooked his hands and ate them. I was hungry. But I didn’t kill him, Carl. I don’t kill people, Carl.”

    nk (dbc370)

  128. I thought pieter was a new and somewhat reasonable person making comments, but recently he/she seems to have an agenda that is premature, and less reasonable than appeared at first.
    Any one care to comment?

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  129. He came over from Ace. They’re all morons over there. (I’ve heard. I don’t visit that site myself.)

    nk (dbc370)

  130. Trump.

    Your fellow American finds him not only palatable in “the evangelical” prism for the presidency but wholly unrequired for further consideration. The recent debates, damming MFM reports, his own fatal gaffes are immaterial to his destined nomination.

    Stop the wondering and fatal hope. Start consideration for the reality which is a President Trump.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  131. You should see the commentariat at Reason. They could be the study group for every Cluster A disorder.

    nk (dbc370)

  132. Breaking news– head lice seen water skiing across Marco’s forehead.

    DCSCA (a343d5)

  133. Like I said.

    Thanks, nk.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  134. #124 narciso,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIaUfBjHjpI

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  135. I am reasonable…sometimes I wear pants when commenting. Just tired of the unjustified hope that will assuredly only end in tears and gnashing of teeth.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  136. 40.Kevin M – I think forcing the election to the House is a viable strategy. …

    It’s a nutty strategy which would split the Republican vote and make it easier for Democratic candidates (at all levels) to win.

    James B. Shearer (0f56fb)

  137. 37 So he could have had a $5 billion dollar windfall …

    Don’t be silly, even if he had somehow been awarded $5 billion he could not have collected it.

    James B. Shearer (0f56fb)

  138. #134 James B. Shearer,

    How would a force to a House vote make it easier for Democrats to win?
    We wouldn’t know that it was forced to a House vote until after everyone voted for all the other offices.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  139. Concerning Trump,
    At this point in time I don’t see it as hope or not,
    Just simple uncertainty.
    You are probably too new here to have heard one of my main points,
    That after a totally unqualified, friend of domestic terrorist, member of a racist church, advocate for infanticide became nominated as a candidate of a major party for president,
    Making political predictions is a useless enterprise.

    The immediate future is that Cruz will take Texas and a significant # of delegates,
    Then something else will happen,
    Then a few more somethings will happen, then there will probably be a Republican nominee.
    Though I could be wrong.

    MD not exactly in Philly (deca84)

  140. Ego protects itself with rationalizations. This forum hides its doubts in argument that is reasonable and true but in the end futile. The intelligent acknowledge reality however distasteful.

    President Trump. What now brown cow?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  141. So, nk, if your claim that (Chris Christie) Fatboy endorsed Obama (#28) is inoperative, say so. But if you’re stickin’ to it, well…

    ropelight (24b805)

  142. even if Mr. The Donald only inherited $64,900 he would still be the same strong Christian person he is today I think

    happyfeet (e75030)

  143. just not as audited

    happyfeet (e75030)

  144. OK, not much of a response so far…simply put, why is a President Trump not an eventuality?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  145. we saw how releasing returns, did not absolve romney, in part because reid was leaked them, so he knew he was lying, re the other point, we know bezos, carlos slim, does zell own the dog trainer, are not uninterested parties, to a debate, we saw what happened to adelson, when he deigned to actually get into the news business,

    narciso (732bc0)

  146. 142- pieter
    Because he cheats at golf.

    mg (31009b)

  147. Mr. Trump will be president only if is will of Allah pieter

    oh crap I left my prayer rug in the conference room

    happyfeet (e75030)

  148. mg, well, that’s something…pathetically and pointlessly little, but something. Thanks.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  149. Yes, that is so sad. Not to sound callous, but my best trade was to sell out of MNKD the day Afrezza was approved. I am shocked to to see the stock around $1! I believe I will wager a small sum on its rebound.

    Do NOT do that. I’m glad you sold when you did.

    Every dime that MannKind gets from now until the end of time will be spent paying back the hundreds of millions of dollars of loans he made them. At some point his estate will just call the notes and fold the company, then sell the Technosphere process off to the high bidder, if any.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  150. I am doubling down. Christie’s behavior with Obama was a super-endorsement. A YUUGE super-endorsement. Those pictures and videos that I linked were worth a million dollars of campaign ads to Obama. A lot more than some rote speech.

    nk (dbc370)

  151. I should point out I’ve had some business dealings with Al, and they ended badly. Not a fan.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  152. Mr. Happyfeet, you can’t escape with that kind of answer, buddy!
    If Mr Donald were such a great Christian, you wouldn’t be supporting him. (DAMN—WUT?!)

    That was such a haymaker last night, when the Marco Rubio guy said, “If Donald hadn’t inherited $200 million, he would be selling watches in Manhattan.”

    And all the Trump Fan Boys who screeched with delight when Trump attacked Megyn Kelly for bleeding from her wherever, have been freaking out that Marco could get away with saying such a “nasty thing!” about somebody. (LOL)

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  153. But no endorsement.

    ropelight (24b805)

  154. I-t w-a-s a-n e-n-d-o-r-s-e-m-e-n-t. Nobody endorsed Obama more than Christie did. Nobody.

    nk (dbc370)

  155. #108, nk: I have pictures of Obama and Christie, ropelight. Whole lot of thanking going on. Tremendous thanking. Really hyuuuge thanking.

    At the time, it was though to have cost Romney the election having the ring-kiss scene played out over and over the last week of the campaign.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  156. happyfeet, hug a root. Your casual flippant comments are a sad reflection of what matters. Unfortunately, you are representativly endemic of most who comment on this site. Shallow, trite and without ken of any historical understanding or consequence.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  157. 148- Good bet.

    mg (31009b)

  158. Did Cruz supporter ever respond to the question Liviticus asked, Have you ever commented here using a different screen name?

    Yes or no. If yes what name(s) did you use?

    ropelight (24b805)

  159. not really, the irs had put a hammerlock on the tea party, severely reducing the turnout effort,
    it wasn’t really about the wonderful turnout machine, but the opposite of that narrative, now christie, did abandon his suffering constituents in order to suck up to obama.

    narciso (732bc0)

  160. Candy Crowley came in a close 2nd.

    mg (31009b)

  161. It’s a nutty strategy which would split the Republican vote and make it easier for Democratic candidates (at all levels) to win.

    No, it’s a desperate strategy, recognizing that many GOP voters won’t go to the polls if Trump is the nominee. IT assumes that whomever they choose that the top of the ticket, they’ll still vote for the GOP downticket (except for the crazy Dems that Trump pulls in).

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  162. yes yes I am most endemic one

    happyfeet (e75030)

  163. Your casual flippant comments are a sad reflection of what matters. Unfortunately, you are representativly endemic of most who comment on this site. Shallow, trite and without ken of any historical understanding or consequence.
    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:14 pm

    Said the pot to the kettle. Heh. And ha-ha-ha. Or is this a different phase in your cycle?

    nk (dbc370)

  164. 135. 37 So he could have had a $5 billion dollar windfall …

    Don’t be silly, even if he had somehow been awarded $5 billion he could not have collected it.

    James B. Shearer (0f56fb) — 2/26/2016 @ 4:45 pm

    I’m not the one who invented the number. Trump did. I’m not the one being ridiculous. Trump was. If Trump really believed he deserved it and thought he collect then he had a YUUUUGE reason to produce his tax returns. Yet, he wouldn’t do it.

    Now, I agree with you the figure is preposterous. But that’s just a further indictment of Trump and further evidence of how far he’ll go to silence people who expose his lies.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  165. pieter is doing a good marvin the android impression,

    narciso (732bc0)

  166. happyfeet, hug the root…however endemic. You are a sad example of a human being…perhaps abortion in the 42nd trimester is not a sin in your specific case.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  167. *big uggies*

    happyfeet (e75030)

  168. James B. Shearer, I’ll try to flag my comments where I thought I was obviously being facetious more clearly next time.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  169. narciso, state your case…I’m here, no need to see if anybody has your back. I have made the contention Trump is an eventuality. Your reasoned response Is…?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  170. Hillary is going to be the next President. Bernie solved her likability problem for her. People like him. They think he’s cute. And when he wholeheartedly endorses her and votes for her, his followers will vote for her because they like him. On the opposite side, maybe 17% of the electorate, at most, like Trump. Hillary will win every state where the doublewide trailer is not considered conspicuous consumption.

    nk (dbc370)

  171. 167. I have made the contention Trump is an eventuality. Your reasoned response Is…?

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:26 pm

    So is getting radiation sickness if you linger too long in the vicinity of Chernobyl. I see no reason to celebrate any of this.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  172. votescampaigns for her

    nk (dbc370)

  173. Pffft. Steve says nothing. Again, why is Trump not an eventuality?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  174. I didn’t hear a contradiction. I took him to mean that each of his last 12 or so returns have been audited, and each audit has taken 2-3 years, so his 2012, ’13, and ’14 returns are still tied up and subject to change and possible litigation.

    Or four or five.

    CRUZ: … what about the years you’re not being audited? Will you release those years?

    BLITZER: Gentlemen, gentlemen, thank you.

    TRUMP: (inaudible) I am being audited for those years.

    CRUZ: Which years? Which years are you being audited?

    TRUMP: (inaudible) last four or five years.

    It’s easier to discern the contradiction if you pay attention to all the parts of what Trump said that demonstrate the contradiction. I tried to make it easy for you this morning by placing those quotes in bold type.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  175. eventuality doesn’t mean what you think it means.

    ropelight (24b805)

  176. I’d follow Trump anywhere, because he’s funny to watch.

    mg (31009b)

  177. Now is the time to plan a response for a President Trump.

    Thanks, I’ll work on defeating him instead.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  178. 171. Pffft. Steve says nothing. Again, why is Trump not an eventuality?

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:30 pm

    What you clearly mean is, I said nothing you can possibly disagree with. Trump may well be an eventuality. But so are natural disasters and disease epidemics.

    So what’s your point?

    Steve57 (b12073)

  179. Patterico, I for the life of me cannot get an intelligible response to the contention Trump is an eventuality. Perhaps I’m wrong, not likely but wouldn’t know from the lackluster replies of those recently commenting.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  180. touchy, pieter, frankly no one knows how this contest will end, if they think they do they need to have their head examined, now carrying rubio on shoulders like the winning quarterback seems
    overdone,

    narciso (732bc0)

  181. pieter, it’s likely you’re not getting an answer you like because you don’t know the difference between an eventuality and an inevitability.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  182. Steve, I am not wondering as to natural disasters, only those political. You have wantonly disregarded my previous assertions for reasons only assumed. By all means, bury your head…reality will not occur as long as the sheets are covering your face. You really disappoint.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  183. Snooki endorses Trump. New Jersey on a roll.

    mg (31009b)

  184. Eventuality or inevitability, mere semantics. Either one spells a Trump presidency. By all means debate the immaterial now rather than the consequential later.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  185. Plenty of sites polishing Trumps b.s.

    mg (31009b)

  186. Different woods – different meanings. Vastly different in this case.

    ropelight (24b805)

  187. 159No, it’s a desperate strategy, recognizing that many GOP voters won’t go to the polls if Trump is the nominee. IT assumes that whomever they choose that the top of the ticket, they’ll still vote for the GOP downticket (except for the crazy Dems that Trump pulls in).

    Every Republican running down ticket would have to take a position on who they are supporting for President. Anything they did would cost them votes.

    James B. Shearer (0f56fb)

  188. rope, if I had respect in your opinions, I’d take heart to them. Unfortunately, you have proven yourself without argumentative merit. Sorry.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  189. 180. Steve, I am not wondering as to natural disasters, only those political. You have wantonly disregarded my previous assertions for reasons only assumed. By all means, bury your head…reality will not occur as long as the sheets are covering your face. You really disappoint.

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:42 pm

    Uhh, no pieter. Reality will happen whether I like it or not. Trump could become the Republican nominee. But by the same token I could catch Ebola, and the Yellowstone supervolcano could erupt. Of the three, I would prefer the latter.

    And I don’t give a rat’s @$$ if I disappoint you or not because you’re just some guy on the internet I don’t even know. Who apparently doesn’t have a point, other than inventing an excuse to talk about prison rape.

    Which is deeply, deeply weird.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  190. My complaint is that I, for the life of me, cannot get a tall double-skim latte out of this computer.

    nk (dbc370)

  191. Snooki endorsed Trump?
    OMG, TV reality stars have to stick together!
    Where does ‘Puck’ from MTV’s ‘The Real World’ in 1994 stand on all of this?!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  192. nk, I suspect you are not doing it right. You got to get in there and grab it by the udder.

    felipe (56556d)

  193. Steve, good for you two fingering that lame response. Ebola…not caring…all that typing which signified nothing.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  194. http://patterico.com/2016/02/25/gop-debate-open-thread-6/#comment-1839762

    2. …We, me, us, I need to reconcile the brutal truth that Trump is going to happen. You have no say in the matter, prison love will occur without your consent. Scream and cry, appeal to the authorities…to no avail or petition.

    This hurts to understand. What is required is a plan to rationalize the aftermath. There is no other reality.

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/25/2016 @ 5:20 pm

    Again, just weird.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  195. Steve, what is truly weird is a relatively smart forum ignoring the reality of a President Trump.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  196. I-t w-a-s a-n e-n-d-o-r-s-e-m-e-n-t. Nobody endorsed Obama more than Christie did. Nobody.

    nk (dbc370) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:14 pm

    I used to think Krispy was pretty decent. But after his keynote speaker horse-stuff at the 2012 convention and bromance with President Mangina, he can kiss my apple-cheeked ass.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  197. And you’ve proved yourself too stupid to admit it when you’re dead wrong. There are few examples of a pronounced lack of intelligence as refusing to face up to a simple error. You tried to us a big word, didn’t know what it means, were informed of your error, and were too wrapped up in ego to even look it up in an on-line dictionary, and now you’ve made an even bigger fool of yourself. Congratulations.

    ropelight (24b805)

  198. that’s why I went with marvin the android, an atypical performance by the late alan rickman,

    so a salafi sympathizer is in the running for london mayor, jihad john was hanging around lisbon in 2011, with those pesky gitmo scamps, scrounging for funds,

    narciso (732bc0)

  199. Colonel,

    Michael Medved played audiotape of Christie appearing on his program just a couple weeks ago pontificating about how Trump doesn’t possess the temperament to be President.
    Apparently, after last night’s meltdown in the debate, Christie has changed his mind about The Donald’s temperament.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  200. rope, please don’t leave the kiddie pool, you’ll drown. I congratulate you on that ability to display umbrage…too bad you can’t discern where it should be justifiably placed.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  201. Then I guess he had to crash
    Lithium would have helped that bash

    nk (dbc370)

  202. Hooray for nk! Smartest thing said tonight.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  203. Remember when we had a name for that manner of blog behavior where someone tries to win the discussion by simply flooding the thread with repetitive assertions? Was it “slamming”?

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  204. Jamming?

    nk (dbc370)

  205. It’s used a lot in advertising.

    nk (dbc370)

  206. Yeah, jamming, that was it.
    (As opposed to jammin’)

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  207. Spam spam spam spam…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  208. #198, using big words to impress people doesn’t work if your audience knows more than you do. Anyone can mistake a word, but misusing a word and then getting uppity when your error is pointed out marks you out as ungrateful. Now, you’ve taken it further attacking the messenger.

    Stupid is as stupid does, and you’ve done it to yourself.

    ropelight (24b805)

  209. And in other places. I threw away a biography of Sherman I had bought especially to pass the time while on jury because it kept calling the freed slaves “African-Americans”.

    nk (dbc370)

  210. Is it inevitable that Trump will win? I don’t know. We have elections because nothing is certain. It’s also why we don’t let polls decide elections. As a wise baseball player once said, “It ain’t over ’til it’s over.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  211. jury *duty*, waiting to be picked

    nk (dbc370)

  212. 193. Steve, what is truly weird is a relatively smart forum ignoring the reality of a President Trump.

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:59 pm

    And I’ve denied that possibility, when and where?

    I’ve railed against the stupidity of a President Trump. But precisely because of the stupidity of going that route, I admit it’s entirely possible. Just like Trump’s fraudulent Trump “University” business plan you just can’t go too far wrong betting on the stupidity of just enough people.

    But, in my own defense, at least I don’t suffer from rape fantasies. Like you and Bernie.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2016/02/26/here-we-go-outside-group-hits-trump-hard-with-new-ads-over-trump-university/

    …The new ad campaign isn’t Internet-only either. It’ll be a “multimillion-dollar” TV buy, according to the Times, although they haven’t announced which media markets yet. One Twitter pal scoffed at the idea that a few disgruntled students suing Trump University would matter to anyone. A few students? Two class-actions have been brought and a third suit was filed by New York State demanding $40 million. Ian Tuttle argues convincingly today that it was a straight-up scam. This is part and parcel of the “Trump doesn’t care about average Americans” attack being pushed lately by Rubio and Cruz using eminent domain and his H-2B practices as ammunition. Even if it goes nowhere in the primary, you’ll be seeing it again in the general election — assuming Hillary has the nerve to remark upon someone else’s legal troubles, that is.

    …Here’s a radical theory for the “my party would never knowingly condone this” crowd: Maybe the Trump’s-a-dirtbag attacks would never have worked because his fans like that he’s a dirtbag. His sales pitch, after all, is that he’s going to do for them, and America, what he’s been doing for himself for the past 70 years. Fleecing innocent people of their savings via a bogus real-estate “university”? Sure, that’s scummy … but what if he puts those skills to work fleecing Mexico by getting them to pay for a wall? Some core part of the anti-Trump argument boils down to “this is ruthless and immoral” and some core part of the response seems to be “we need someone ruthless and immoral to make America great again.” If that’s the case then the ads never would have worked, regardless of when you released them. As it is, you’ve got less than three weeks for these to move mountains.

    No, you see, I have my eyes wide open. Just like Hillary! supporters like the fact she’s such a pathological liar she gets away with felonies I understand a lot of Trump supporters like the fact that Trump is also a liar and a fraud.

    It’s just a battle over which dictator will be on their side, and will target their enemies.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  213. “And you’ve proved yourself too stupid to admit it when you’re dead wrong”…

    Wait a minute… who is supporting Trump again?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  214. Yeah, jamming. I hope you like jamming, too.

    felipe (56556d)

  215. Yeah, CS? I believe it, but Medved oughtta stick to being a film critic.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  216. Bob Marely had a point of view on jammin’.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFRbZJXjWIA

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  217. Pardon me, but I should have spelled Bob’s last name, “Marley.”

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  218. Whatever. None of you responded to my repeated assertion. Consoling yourselves with with idiotic jargon should not suave your shallow consciente. Again, pathetic attempt at civil discourse.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  219. felipe! Ras bumbah clot!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  220. I hope no full-metal jacket’s involved in this dispute.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  221. rasta man!

    felipe (56556d)

  222. Rasta man vibration, yayah

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  223. Every single noun preceded by an emphatic adjective is a clear indication of a disordered mind.

    nk (dbc370)

  224. Steve, OK. Your eyes are wide open…and display a proclivity to post words that are not your own. Do you admit Trump is the inevitable not only nominee but next President? Try to use your own thoughts without citing crap elsewhere.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  225. Haiku, of course we live on a world of sh!t. You and others ensure we debate the small while ignoring the greater threat.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  226. poor, pieter, he try,
    poor, pieter, he try,
    No, pieter, no cry,
    No, pieter, no cry.

    Cause, cause, cause, I remember when he used to comment
    over at ace’s yard with Trench-mouth,
    Oba – obaserving the ‘ypocrites
    now he would try mingle with the good people here.
    Good friends we have, oh, too bad he’s lost
    Along the way.
    In this great thread, you not long will last,
    So dry your tears, I seh.

    No pieter no cry
    bye, pieter, goodbye.

    felipe (56556d)

  227. Amen, DRJ. Many throwing in the towel before game is over. So sad!

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  228. Sorry, lapsed into Trump Twitterspeak.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  229. pieter, someone who doesn’t know the difference between an eventuality and an inevitability shouldn’t be accusing people of using words that aren’t their own.

    223. …Do you admit Trump is the inevitable not only nominee but next President?

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 6:34 pm

    Wait one!

    171. …Again, why is Trump not an eventuality?

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 5:30 pm

    You actually believe that this is a matter of “mere semantics?” Which I suppose is why you use two entirely different words with two entirely different meanings as if they’re interchangeable, when they’re not.

    Again, it’s laughable that you accuse me of using words that are not my own, when it’s obvious I’m the only one involved who knows what the words mean.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  230. felipe, form over substance is the manner of the progressive. Thanks for the clear evidence of your nature.

    Felipe is a tool,
    Not someone of merit,
    Just a ridiculous tool,
    Rhyming for idiot’s sake,
    Deplorable, idiotic, a fool

    pieter (ec44a2)

  231. Steve, mark my words…you are ignoring the message while savaging the messenger.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  232. Other than enjoying being overly theatrical and making excuses to talk about prison rape, pieter, do you have a point?

    Steve57 (b12073)

  233. There seems to be movement towards an independent GOP bid.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/will-conservatives-mount-a-third-party-challenge-if-trump-is-the-nominee/470499/

    Politico also has a story.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  234. pieter, maybe if the messenger wasn’t apparently drunk off his @$$ I could address the message.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  235. Patterico, considering that Christie is endorsing hf’s buddy, can we use that “w” word again? They seem to be clustering around Trump.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  236. felipe, yes. You are the classic example of the obtuse, willfully ignorant jacka$$ery demonstrated on this forum. Congratulations on being a dubious leader.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  237. “pieter! Bow to your sensei!”

    – Donald Trump

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  238. Seriously, what’s with all the vituperation and hostility, homes?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  239. pieter, put down the bottle of Jack and step away from the Thesaurus.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  240. Steve, a falling down drunk pieter is more than your questionable intellect could ever handle.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  241. 239. Steve, a falling down drunk pieter is more than your questionable intellect could ever handle.

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 6:58 pm

    That’s just the booze talking, pieter.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  242. Haiku, there will be no bowing…initially some trembling, but hopefully with the thoughts of this forum a plan to counter a very ugly reality.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  243. Steve, say something smart so I can respect you as a possible equal. So far, not much to go in your favor.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  244. Steve57. You killed pieter quite a few comments ago. What we are seeing here is just a nervous response. His fingers are still twitching on the keyboard. It’s a fairly common occurrence. He can’t help it, he’s not alive.

    felipe (56556d)

  245. Steve, a falling down drunk pieter is more than your questionable intellect could ever handle.

    Not according to the evidence.

    ropelight (24b805)

  246. and there is evidence in abundance

    felipe (56556d)

  247. 241. Haiku, there will be no bowing…initially some trembling, but hopefully with the thoughts of this forum a plan to counter a very ugly reality.

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 7:00 pm

    Your plan seems to be that “prison love” happens whether you consent or not so you might as well just lie there and think of England.

    Which, sorry, I don’t consider much of a plan.

    Maybe if you fell out of love with yourself and your comments you could actually make yourself clear.

    Or, put down the Jack.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  248. he is being very mentat,

    narciso (732bc0)

  249. well, when you poke at it with a stick, what “response” did you expect to elicit?

    felipe (56556d)

  250. Here’s a crazy twitchy response…you, all of you, are delusionally in the weeds. The recent debate, Trump’s documented faults that preclude him from office, your desperate hopes and pitiful dreams will not change the fact a majority of your fellow Americans are voting for Trump.

    Yeah…I’m nuts, drunk, commenting contrary to everyone. At least, in my sad state, I have a clue and actually wonder as to the reality of an inevitable Trump presidency.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  251. pieter might have a point, worrying the way he is. Worrying works. 90% of the things I worry about never happen.

    nk (dbc370)

  252. Thanks, nk.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  253. he is being very mentat mentos ,
    narciso (732bc0) — 2/26/2016 @ 7:06 pm

    FIFY

    A rare failure by Erasmus

    felipe (56556d)

  254. #249, I think he means the eventuality of a Trump presidency.

    ropelight (24b805)

  255. OMG, he thanked you, nk.

    felipe (56556d)

  256. 249. …At least, in my sad state, I have a clue and actually wonder as to the reality of an inevitable Trump presidency.

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 7:11 pm

    Ahh, I see. You’ve got to the wondering stage of addressing reality.

    Back in my Navy days when we were doing mission planning we called that…

    not even having a clue about how to start planning.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  257. Send all the Trump idolators — and idolators is exactly what they all are — to a tiny island with King Trump, and then permanently blockade that island. Nobody leaves and nobody gets in.

    John Hitchcock (0997d2)

  258. And that tiny island was called –wait for it– Earth.

    felipe (56556d)

  259. If there is a root handy, feel free to hug it with all your might. Rope and felipe, snark is not a coherent argument…try the daily kos as a forum if such is the level of discourse you enjoy.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  260. I had this kid that I was tutoring/mentoring and he would annoy me all to pieces by saying “I can visualize it”. No, kid, you are not visualizing it. You are imagining it and it’s not the same thing.

    nk (dbc370)

  261. I know you are, pieter, but what am I – infinity.

    felipe (56556d)

  262. my obscure references have a point, pieter de vries from dune,

    narciso (732bc0)

  263. There seems to be movement towards an independent GOP bid.
    Politico also has a story.

    Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/26/2016 @ 6:51 pm

    I already asserted that on these very (electronic) pages.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  264. This pieter thinks he is a wit – well, he’s half-right.

    felipe (56556d)

  265. John, if you had to give an opinion on the future…what does January 2017 look like?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  266. ‘dogs and cats living together, human sacrifice, mass hysteria’

    narciso (732bc0)

  267. It looks like very close to the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. And, yes, I do believe it is a real event and it will happen very soon. Especially if Trump somehow gets elected. No hyperbole, whatsoever.

    John Hitchcock (0997d2)

  268. Disclaimer- The following is not a Dune reference.

    Oh, Herbert, are you stiff.

    felipe (56556d)

  269. felipe, well…obviously infinitely smarter than you, even drunk…one finger typing having to close one eye at times.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  270. Look at all my trials and tribulations
    Sinking in a gentle pool of wine.

    felipe (56556d)

  271. Herbert!

    felipe (56556d)

  272. One last comment, perhaps a waste of time, for posterity.

    “pieter” merely reasserts a useless assertion, refuses to acknowledge arguments, then claims no one is willing to engage him.

    His assertion is useless in at least 2 ways:
    1) there is no way to prove or disprove it
    2) there is no utility in “knowing” whether it is true or not
    unless you think there is utility in say “As Allah wills”, and do nothing while waiting to be assimilated

    If anyone out there in the universe within the reception of these digital electromagnetic pulses that does not understand this,
    other than pieter himself,
    please speak up,
    and nk, narciso, felipe (en Espanol), or one of the other kindly though grievously disparaged people who frequent here will answer you.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  273. The irony about Trump’s tax returns is that he has refused to produce them for years — including for litigation, this primary, etc. — but then the Obama IRS might give them to Hillary or leak them during the general election. That’s a Lose-Lose for the GOP, as usual.

    DRJ (15874d)

  274. Here you go, pieter:

    CHCH

    what’s missing?

    felipe (56556d)

  275. Oh, infinitely smarter, pieter @268.

    Keep telling yourself that.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  276. U R !

    felipe (56556d)

  277. MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84) — 2/26/2016 @ 7:30 pm

    That was a most merciful comment, MD.

    felipe (56556d)

  278. Time to retire from the battlefield. The argument was made Trump is not only the nominee but the likely president. The counter was less than succinct, actually incredibly vapid, more derision than cogent response. K, enjoy your discussions of the mundane and worthless. A few months from now when what was proffered is stern reality, well I’ll be regrettably saying I told you so. Alcohol does not give wisdom, being 50 and a certain amount of honesty as to reality, does.

    Again, if the root is handy, feel free to hug. You know who you are that needs to.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  279. Time to retire from the battlefield.

    Thank you.
    Muchas Gracias.
    Danke Schoen.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  280. Pieter – I do not accept your underlying premise. No need to go any deeper than that.

    JD (34f761)

  281. Don’t worry, I have a feeling the windmills will still be there to tilt at tomorrow.

    felipe (56556d)

  282. MD, what canny truth can you offer as to eventuality/inevitably of Trump? Or is it more dismissive commentary? Thanks for your benefit of the doubt, which I got from no one.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  283. was it in one of nostradamus’s hidden quatrains,

    narciso (732bc0)

  284. JD, the underlying premise is that your peers do not vote with your educated understanding. Why must you and others persist in savaging the messenger?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  285. Oh, how stupid do you think we are in addition to vapid and mundane???

    Anyone other than pieter needs to have the requested that was ignored reviewed?

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  286. Being a contrarian doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the scorned feelings of those on this forum. What helps is that you deserve the recrimination. It is you, not I that should reflect with serious reason.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  287. Most of you have the tendencies of a sad liberal progressive…shallow, thoughtless, and only wondering as to their own ego before any other consideration.

    Please ask Patterico to ban me.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  288. “Steve57. You killed pieter quite a few comments ago. What we are seeing here is just a nervous response. His fingers are still twitching on the keyboard. It’s a fairly common occurrence. He can’t help it, he’s not alive.”

    felipe (56556d) — 2/26/2016 @ 7:03 pm

    I think there’s some agonal respiration going on…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  289. Haiku, brrrp…I thed thometing. Dumba$$.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  290. Let’s see if this works:

    No, Pieter, big, bad Trump is not going to be the next President because daddy and mommy will not let him, now say your prayers, and mommy will tuck you in and daddy will kiss you goodnight.

    nk (dbc370)

  291. I welcome a discussion…there has been none. All of you are pathetic reflections of what this forum should represent. Feel free to punch yourselves in the jimmy. Afterward, once some measure of contrition performed, we can hopefully discuss the Trump reality at hand.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  292. nk, OK…what convinces you that Trump will not be the next president, other than wishful thinking?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  293. I find no particular need at this time to be convinced that Trump will not be the next President. I was worried earlier in the day that I was running low on coffee but I see that I have enough for tomorrow morning before I run to the store to get more. And I need sugar, bananas and maybe an apple or peach pie too.

    nk (dbc370)

  294. I welcome a discussion…
    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 8:12 pm

    pieter,
    no one else in the universe has piped up to say they need to have repeated the points that you have ignored

    Please ask Patterico to ban me.
    unfortunately, for us, Patterico never bans anyone except for the most vile, disgusting, revolting, and even menacing comments,
    which you have not even begun to approach,
    all you have done is lured us into wasting time
    so on occasion we have our ways of calling a person on it,

    you must not take yourself seriously, you’ve claimed we are too vapid and pathetic to be worth anything,
    yet you insist in hanging around and wasting your time

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  295. how’s the weather there, nk?
    we had some snow here in NW Ohio a few days ago,
    which I enjoyed, as I like the look of snow,
    and don’t mind driving in it
    but I think it will be gone tomorrow

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  296. Beautiful, MD. A snow blizzard two days ago, bad for driving but no accumulation and temperatures remaining in the 30s. One of the mildest winters we’ve had in a long time, just cold enough for the soccer field to freeze into a skating rink for a couple of months.

    nk (dbc370)

  297. MD, you know what is vile, disgusting and revolting? You and your ilk that revel in debasing a messenger rather than the message. All I proffered was consideration for an inevitable Trump presidency…which proved to be solid ground for derision and shared mirth. Well, I’m not the sort that rolls over to expose an underbelly to the herd. Hug a root.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  298. Here on Florida’s Gulf Coast it was clear and sunny today, about 81 degrees under blue skies, with brisk winds out of the NW 10 to 12 knots. Good day for sailing.

    ropelight (24b805)

  299. I have to admit it. pieter @296 nailed it. Nothing says “I’m morally superior to y’all” as commanding us to “hug a root.”

    Well played, pieter. Bravo.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  300. 81 degrees. Is that with the wind chill, ropelight?

    nk (dbc370)

  301. Sorry to hear that, ropelight.
    It’s February, time for snow…
    But to each their own.

    Scripture does say “Though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as snow”.
    But there are verses and stories about sailing and winds too,
    so it’s all good.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  302. Steve, hug a root is a euphemism…you and I know what is actually meant. And yes, sometimes, invectives are all that we have. Dueling is impossible via the internet last I checked. Too bad, right?

    pieter (ec44a2)

  303. pieter,
    you’re being like a 3rd grader that keeps saying “does too!”
    drop your handle, send an email to Patterico giving your name change,
    and come back like an adult

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  304. yes, too bad
    Foil, sabre, or epee’?

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  305. Ding dong teh bi+ch is dead.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  306. MD, easier to denigrante me as a middle schooler that debate me on the original contentión? You are a very sad excuse of a fellow Américan.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  307. My mobile is stuck in spanish mode…ay caramba.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  308. 296… All I proffered was consideration for an inevitable Trump presidency …

    For some reason the bookmakers haven’t gotten the word about this and you can still win about $2.50 for every dollar you bet on Trump if he wins the Presidency. You could then take your winnings and move to New Zealand which should be a safe distance away. So what’s the problem?

    James B. Shearer (0f56fb)

  309. Eat sh!t everyone and goodnight. Some of you have proven yourselves absolutely weak in intellect and character. I have no regrets calling you out. You do believe those who have demonstrably failed should be held to account? Yeah, me too. Good times and, again, good night.

    pieter (ec44a2)

  310. “Why must you and others persist in savaging the messenger?”

    I did no such thing. Step away from the bottle.

    JD (34f761)

  311. Episodes like this are always odd. And sad.

    JD (34f761)

  312. nk, my outdoor transmitter is attached to the underside of the lanai’s roof well protected from the wind. So I don’t get a readout which takes wind into consideration. However, a big cold front moved through day before yesterday leaving a perceptible chill on the wind. I noticed a neighbor wearing a long sleeve T-shirt on his daily walk. I stayed in short pants and short sleeves.

    ropelight (24b805)

  313. Tonight the bottle let me down.

    ropelight (24b805)

  314. 308. Eat sh!t everyone and goodnight…

    pieter (ec44a2) — 2/26/2016 @ 9:13 pm

    This, I’m sure, is just a euphemism, too.

    Steve57 (b12073)

  315. now he’s channelling niedermeyer from animal house,

    narciso (732bc0)

  316. The paulbots have regressed to chumpbots.

    Pity.

    Eric in Hollywood (5ff8bf)

  317. pieter-hug a live grenade, you pompous AZZ.
    Cruz/West

    mg (31009b)

  318. Look I know a lot of you can look at yourselves in the mirror without flinching, you have friends you esteem highly, you keep your nose clean and observe the law but yours is not a critical eye.

    Our country is no longer that of Toynebee’s “America is great because Americans are good”.

    Lying is an accepted business practice, it is accepted in the courtroom, in the doctor’s office, what have you.

    And our governments are plagued with and amount to the worst actors:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-26/us-government-releases-2015-financial-statements-keeps-getting-worse

    No one here in preceding months has given a shred of evidence in support of hope. Hope is not a plan. A plan needs to be ushered into reality.

    DNF (755a85)

  319. It depends on which mirror. The one on the medicine cabinet in the main bathroom, with the soft lights on either side, is very flattering. The hanging antique one in the guest half-bath, with the ceiling light and leaded window directly across it, makes everyone look like a zombie.

    nk (dbc370)

  320. All cats are gray in the dark.

    ropelight (4ea934)

  321. ropelight, please accept my apology. Christie did endorse Romney in August and then double-crossed him by campaigning with LaMamba a week before the election. Helping the SCOAMF look caring, compassionate, competent and leader-like. He’s a Barzini and he’ll back-stab Trump too. I was too contrary to catch on when you gave me the hints.

    nk (dbc370)

  322. He’s got sucha hangovah!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  323. If bait and switch is bad, why can’t Obamacare be repealed?

    AZ Bob (aeaaad)

  324. I am not one of those people who recoiled in shock when the establishment foot soldiers, Romney and Perry broke out the Reiding bit.

    I in fact could not help but chuckle. There is no need to release his taxes with this bunch in the primary. Come the general it will be a very nice marker to use to get what he wants out of Hillary.
    As far as being worried about Trumps taxes being out of line, heheheh, seriously. He is the only candidate up there who’s taxes are supremely, pristine due to yearly, constant scrutiny by the federal government.

    I would hold out for Hillary’s medical record, and taxes at the very least before releasing them.

    Drider (340c7b)

  325. No problem, nk, you had me scratchin’ my head when you doubled down.

    ropelight (4ea934)

  326. Donald Trump has a habit of using the wrong word, and not realizing it, even after other people use the word in a different way. He did that, I think, with the word “mandate” when he thinks, or thought, the mandate means the mandate on the hospital or doctors, signed into law by Prewdient Reagan in the law known as EMTALA. I think it’s enforced by a provision that says that if don’t do things this way, Medicare will cut them from the program.

    It still hasn’t penetrated Donald Trump’s skull that the mandate everybody is talking about is something else, or else he doesn’t want to embarass himself by admitting he initially misunderstood it as the mandate on the hospitals for emergency treatment.

    That’s what the whole dying in the street business was about. In this debate Donald Trump indicating he was thinking about coverage of pre-existing conditions.

    You could come up with something in that regard (like saying people uninsurable at a practical cost should be covered by Medicare just like kidney dialysis is) but Donald Trump hasn’t done anything. Like the Wall Street Journal editorial said today, he just doesn’t like to work all that hard to learn anything new. He gets by on instinct (and I would add, what he picks up casually from talking to people off the cuff) It’s just that way.

    Here, with the audits, did you notice that Donald trump uses the word “file” to refer making income tax returns public. That’s not “filing” them. Filing them is what you do with the government.

    By the way, I don’t think Donald Trump was that contradictory. It was probably a succession of near truths and you can sort it out with reasonable assumptions. That is: 1) He’s been audited every year, or almost every year, for the last dozen years or so, 2) two or three years now are in the process of audit, 3) but you could argue maybe that up to five years are still subject to revision at least on some minor points, or it may not have been finalized, although the negotiations are complete.

    I think the audits are a fact and that he never mentioned it before because

    1) That doesn’t preclude him from releasing the initial tax returns, or the returns in the shape they are in right now

    AND

    2) He didn’t want to admit he is being audited, because it is partly his fault, or the length and detail of the audits are.

    But now he thinks it’s a good additional argument not to release his tax returns. Note, by the way, he just didn’t answer Ted Cruz’s question about all those years for which the audits are completed. (it’s now the practice for presidential candidates to go back 8 or maybe even 12 years, or even as far back as he has records. Mitt Romney was in trouble because he omitted some years after 2008. I don’t blame Donald Trump actually for thinking Mitt Romney had released nothing at all prior to Sept 2012 – at least I don’t blame him for maybe initially thinking so – because that was the impression created to a casual consumer of the news.)

    Sammy Finkelman (7c7fb2)

  327. I think one lie there, though, is his claim that rich people don’t get audited. A very high percentage of them do. And Donald Trump contradicts himself on that point.

    He said:

    Nobody gets audited — I have friends that are very wealthy people. They never get audited

    But he also said:

    Every year, because of the size of my company, which is very, very large, I’m being audited

    Well, which is it? Does nobody get audited, or does anyone with a big complany like his get audited?

    After the debate he apparently claimed that he was singled out for audits because of his Christian religious beliefs! Although I only have that secondhand, so maybe he said something that was a little more plausible, although almost certainly not true.

    Sammy Finkelman (7c7fb2)

  328. Why is it “obvious” that he can’t release his returns while they are being “routinely” audited.

    Yes, he can’t release what the final version will be, but he can release his tax returns as they are now. (He may not have filed a final 1040X but known that he already has accepted some changes, but he still can footnote his original 1040 tax returns or release an non-final 1040X.)

    Sammy Finkelman (7c7fb2)

  329. I’m wondering if anyone bothered to look up (since you obviously don’t know) how many returns the IRS is allowed to go back and review. For some reason, there is this notion that if they audit you this year, you will only be looking at the 2015 return. A simple Google would have given you the fact, straight from the IRS:

    “How far back can the IRS go to audit my return?
    Generally, the IRS can include returns filed within the last three years in an audit. Additional years can be added if a substantial error is identified. Generally, if a substantial error is identified, the IRS will not go back more than the last six years.”
    https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/IRS-Audit-FAQs
    http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-far-back-can-the-irs-audit-you/

    In fact, the IRS can go back farther than that. Note the phrase “Generally”.

    So let’s dig into this “lie”.
    1) It is entirely possible that a person (especially one with a series of complex business returns) will be audited every year. So Donald saying this should be unremarkable.
    2) On a standard audit, the IRS will routinely go back three years, even if no discrepancies are found. Does this conform to his statement? Why yes, it does. “I’m being audited now for two or three years”
    3) So now we come to this part of your “enhanced” transcript:
    TRUMP: (inaudible) last four or five years.
    So even with your super sense of hearing and desire to hang whatever you can on Donald Trump, you are unable to determine what was said before “four or five years”. If he said “They may go back to the last four or five years” (or something similar), that would not only be extremely likely, given the low threshold of unreported foreign income ($5000), it would match what you were able to discern with your super duper hearing.

    Since an audit is not a criminal proceeding, there are no double jeopardy protections. So you can be audited as many times as the IRS feels like, and each time, they can go back as far as they want, even if they reviewed that very return the year prior (and the year before that, and the year before that). I would think a lawyer would understand such simple procedural issues, but somehow our host is flummoxed that someone would claim that they are audited that much or have that many returns under review.

    You’d think that grown adults would be at least a little more familiar with how the tax system works. Apparently, not.

    Of course, four years ago we all rightly bristled when Harry Reid (on Obama’s orders) recklessly slung false allegations at Mitt Romney and demanded that he release all his personal tax returns. But now that Cruz is doing the demanding, you are all for it. Love the moral and ideological consistency.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  330. that’s a very thoughtful comment Mr. prowlerguy thank you for helping us understand more better

    happyfeet (831175)

  331. Don’t you all love to see Orange Toupee Bromance?

    Simon Jester (ba04d3)

  332. Oh, and for the next club meeting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/201492266811?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

    Simon Jester (ba04d3)

  333. Of course, four years ago we all rightly bristled when Harry Reid (on Obama’s orders) recklessly slung false allegations at Mitt Romney and demanded that he release all his personal tax returns. But now that Cruz is doing the demanding, you are all for it. Love the moral and ideological consistency.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 2/28/2016 @ 7:52 am

    Four years ago Reid claimed to know what was in Romney’s returns and was rather obviously lying. That was the controversy. I don’t recall anyone objecting to demands that Romney release his returns. That’s a fairly standard thing in Presidential campaigns. Equating that situation to this situation is a lame straw man.

    With due respect to your claimed expertise in these matters, knowledgeable people think it’s doubtful that 12 years are being reviewed.

    And as has been pointed out already, Trump’s excuse as to why he won’t release his returns doesn’t hold water anyway. Nothing prevents him from releasing the returns as they were filed even if they might have to be revised at some point.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  334. he didn’t say 12 years were being reviewed he said he’s been under audit for one thing or the other for the last 12 years

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  335. Cruz suggests Trump’s tax returns could reveal Mafia ties

    This probably won’t get any traction while the nomination is still in doubt, BUT will amazingly gain lots of traction once Hillary is his opponent.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  336. he didn’t say 12 years were being reviewed he said he’s been under audit for one thing or the other for the last 12 years

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/28/2016 @ 5:00 pm

    That’s true. Based on what he said it’s unclear how many years are being reviewed – but apparently it’s so many he can release nothing now.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  337. he didn’t say 12 years were being reviewed he said he’s been under audit for one thing or the other for the last 12 years

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/28/2016 @ 5:00 pm

    Actually knowledgeable people doubt that he could have been audited 12 consecutive years.

    Gerald A (7c7ffb)

  338. Gerald A @329 and @331

    So let me get this straight. Reid claimed Romney paid no taxes and demanded his returns be released. Cruz claims Trump’s returns will show Mafia ties and demands those returns be released. But comparing those two is a “lame straw man”?

    happyfeet has already corrected your lie about Trump claiming 12 returns under review currently.

    You attempt to mock my “claimed expertise”, but fail to realize that the only expertise I claim is the ability to Google and then read from the IRS’s own web site. That line of attack is unremarkable for someone engaged in ad hominem arguments, but it is pretty humorous when you then turn around and claim expertise based on unknown and uncited “knowledgeable people” as proof that he could not possibly be audited 12 years in a row. Given that he owns multiple businesses, likely has several trusts, and of course has his own personal 1040 and leads a flamboyant lifestyle, I find it hard to believe that any “knowledgeable person” would make such a statement.

    For the record, and as I have stated before, I will not vote for Donald Trump for the R nomination. However, the over-the-top accusations and vitriol have turned this formerly cogent and informative source into a bizarro version of Democratic Underground. For a group that has bitched about the establishment Republicans and dreamed of a grass-roots movement, you sure are awfully bitchy when the grass-roots don’t fall into lockstep behind YOUR chosen candidate. That’s the funny and great thing about grass-roots; you can’t control them. And for a bunch who rightly view Reagan as one of our best Presidents and leaders of the conservative movement, you sure do ignore what Reagan said when it suits you.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  339. happyfeet has already corrected your lie about Trump claiming 12 returns under review currently.

    If that were true, then Trump should easily be able to release the tax returns where the audits have been completed.

    DRJ (15874d)

  340. prowlerguy:

    So let me get this straight. Reid claimed Romney paid no taxes and demanded his returns be released. Cruz claims Trump’s returns will show Mafia ties and demands those returns be released. But comparing those two is a “lame straw man”?

    I don’t know of any basis Reid could credibly have to claim that Romney paid no taxes. On the other hand, there is a basis to say that Trump has Mafia ties:

    Donald Trump’s glittering empire of New York skyscrapers and Atlantic City casinos have long had a darker side, allegations that the mob helped build them.

    Trump’s alleged ties to New York and Philadelphia crime families go back decades and have been recounted in a book, newspapers and government records.

    “The mob connections of Donald are extraordinarily extensive,” New York investigative journalist Wayne Barrett told CNN in an interview.

    It is not a stretch, let alone a lie, to speculate there could be evidence of Mafia ties in Trump’s tax returns.

    DRJ (15874d)

  341. Reid claimed Romney paid no taxes and demanded his returns be released. Cruz claims Trump’s returns will show Mafia ties and demands those returns be released. But comparing those two is a “lame straw man”?

    Cruz is speculating. He doesn’t claim to know anything. That’s not what Reid did. Cruz is not the source of the mafia links. There are media reports about it. Cruz also speculates that Trump donated to Planned Parenthood. It’s been suggested that Trump hasn’t donated all that money to veterans groups that he claims although Cruz didn’t mention that.

    you then turn around and claim expertise based on unknown and uncited “knowledgeable people”

    Trump’s 12 Years of Audits ‘Very Unusual,’ Ex-IRS Agent Says

    The link notes that Trump has changed his story about releasing his returns. He wasn’t previously claiming that anything was holding up releasing his returns other than “complexity”.

    I’ll just repeat what I said in #329:

    And as has been pointed out already, Trump’s excuse as to why he won’t release his returns doesn’t hold water anyway. Nothing prevents him from releasing the returns as they were filed even if they might have to be revised at some point.

    Demanding Trump release his returns should not even be controversial. It’s a standard thing in Presidential campaigns. If he ultimately fails to release any I believe that would be unprecedented. Maybe he will ultimately release them but at this point it seems like he’s stalling.

    However, the over-the-top accusations and vitriol have turned this formerly cogent and informative source into a bizarro version of Democratic Underground.

    I don’t know what the over-the-top accusations are. Not doubting Trump’s stated reason for not releasing his returns. There’s any number of things he could be trying to hide and given that he doesn’t exactly seem to be the most honest person in the world speculating about his possible motives for not releasing them doesn’t seem over the top to me.

    The bottom line is, he seems to be stalling and if he is, there must be SOME reason. This is not anything like the Reid episode.

    Gerald A (945582)

  342. The Cruz fans are just as obtuse as the Trump fans. All utterances of preferred candidate are the end all be all of responsible discourse.

    spokanebob (1aaf2a)

  343. “If that were true, then Trump should easily be able to release the tax returns where the audits have been completed.”

    So what probative value do 7-15 year old tax returns have? In what way are they relevant to choosing the President. If the IRS won’t even go back that far, why would you need to see them? And where are Cruz’s returns? That’s rhetorical, of course. He only released the 1040, which only shows AGI and taxes paid. He’s keeping all the real details (where he got the money and what exemptions and deductions he claimed) secret. That’s some transparency there, even less than Hillary!!!
    http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-02-28/cruz-s-tax-return-few-details-5-million-income-for-2011-14

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  344. DRJ @341:
    Reid had the same basis as Cruz does: he heard it from a guy who knew a guy who said he saw it. Don’t you read the articles you link? From CNN??? “allegations that the mob helped build them” “alleged ties to New York and Philadelphia crime families” That’s pretty firm stuff, there. To cover their ass, though, they admitted the truth. Sure, it was buried deep in the article and was not expounded upon at all, but there it is:

    To be sure, organized crime had ties to the New York and New Jersey construction industry in the 1980’s and early 1990’s, making contact between developers and mafia-controlled companies almost unavoidable at times.

    Oh, and he paid “above market value” (an unintentionally funny phrase, given the definition) for a tract of prime Atlantic City real estate to build a casino. Directly across from Steel Pier, right on the boardwalk. Clearly he only did it because of the mob.

    That’s all there is. He built buildings in NY/NJ, he used concrete in the Trump Towers, and he bought part of a prime tract of land for his casino from the son of a mob boss.

    So now this site matches moveon.org, Democratic Underground, and the Wikipedia editors:

    http://pac.petitions.moveon.org/sign/join-the-movement-to-2?source=none&fb_test=0
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salvatore_Testa&type=revision&diff=696906784&oldid=696381358

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  345. @342

    Reid wasn’t the “source” of the allegations against Romney, remember? Reid heard it from a guy who worked at the firm that did Romney’s taxes. At least with Reid, the rumor was directly tied to the tax return. In what way would mob ties be illuminated by a tax return?

    And so you found one guy (despite using the plural people), an ex-IRS agent who now work for rich, Silicon Valley liberals. I’m sure the calculation of getting one’s firm mentioned while trashing Trump will pay off handsomely for this guy, who used a ton of weasel words to qualify his statements. But what I didn’t see him mention was the kind of businesses Trump is involved in. Could the IRS be focusing on certain TYPES of businesses? Hmmm.

    http://www.coloradorealtors.com/is-the-irs-targeting-real-estate-professionals-for-audits/
    https://www.creonline.com/special-report-irs-intensifies-attack-against-real-estate-professionals.html
    http://www.pappastax.com/article/irs-targets-real-estate-investors/
    There’s more, if you need them.

    And finally, your claim that there has been nothing over-the-top said here, in any thread is so silly that it is laughable. The only break from puffing up allegations into facts and taking words out of context in order to slam Trump was when they spent a day doing the same for Rubio. Anyone concerned about the effect of massive, unchecked illegal immigration (along with copious welfare benefits, terrorist infiltration, and voter fraud) on the future ability of the US to survive have been called racists, morons, rubes, and low-information voters. This from a bunch who don’t even know how many returns the IRS can examine in a single audit. Low information, indeed.

    I really like your last bit. Anyone who doesn’t let the cops search their car or home, clearly is hiding something, right? Anyone who declines to give a statement to police clearly is guilty, right? And if a private citizen declines to give their private financial info to the world, they clearly have mob ties. It all makes sense now.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  346. Demanding Trump release his returns should not even be controversial. It’s a standard thing in Presidential campaigns.

    Really? Sure about that? Take a look at this:

    http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/web/presidentialtaxreturns

    Now look at George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Bill Clinton, George HW Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon. Notice anything about the years for the tax returns that they released? Come on, you can do it.

    Look closer….

    Closer……

    Now think….. What is significant about those dates?

    That’s right! They only released tax returns for the years in which they were President. So the only the last two cycles have had these fishing expeditions (normally targeting the Republican front-runner or candidate), but that hardly makes it “standard”, does it?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  347. steve57 @37

    There’s a simple reason he won’t release them. He’s lying about his net worth.

    Be a dear and please tell me which line on your 1040 is your net worth? I’ll even settle for assets held.

    Yeah. That’s what I thought. A whole eight paragraphs devoted to broadcasting your ignorance for the whole world to see. Congrats.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  348. Reid heard it from a guy who worked at the firm that did Romney’s taxes.

    Bzzzt. No, he didn’t. Not only because the informant didn’t actually exist, but because even by Reid’s own description the informant was never in a position to know anything about Romney’s returns.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  349. Reid wasn’t the “source” of the allegations against Romney, remember? Reid heard it from a guy who worked at the firm that did Romney’s taxes. At least with Reid, the rumor was directly tied to the tax return. In what way would mob ties be illuminated by a tax return?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 2/29/2016 @ 8:49 am

    BALONEY. He did NOT hear it from a guy who worked at the firm that did Romney’s taxes. He was obviously LYING. That’s the whole point. He even admitted it last year.

    Gerald A (945582)

  350. Well, yes, he was lying, but not about that. He never claimed that his informant worked at the firm that did Romney’s taxes. Nor did he give any other way in which his informant could have had access to inside information about them. Which was why his allegation was so outrageous.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  351. So, but using the magic time machine, you can say that in hindsight, Reid was lying? Great. But that was not contemporaneous facts know to anyone but Reid, were they? He was claiming to hear it from a guy who saw the return. And yes, it was fishy, but so is the “mob ties” bullshit being bandied about by Cruz. There is not a single real estate developer (including the city of NY) who don’t have “ties” to the mob. The mob controls the construction trades in NY, NJ and PA. And even if you were able to find a single contractor with absolutely no relation with any mob member, past, current or future, you would then run the risk of having “unfortunate” accidents and missing shipments of materials (don’t forget the Teamsters).

    But where does Cruz get his information that the tax return will show direct mob ties? A secret source? Or is he just recycling decades old gossip and tying that to his demands for Trump to release his taxes (as if that is somehow more moral than simply lying about the source of the rumor like Reid)? It’s a sensationalistic grab for headlines (just like Reid) to pressure him into revealing the contents of his Sch A. Nothing more, nothing less. And if release of those documents were so important to you and Cruz, he would have released his already and you would be crying for his head on a stake for being a slimy politician. But he isn’t, and you aren’t, so we no there are no principles involved here. Just naked ambition and hatred.

    And for the second time, how would a tax return show mob ties?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  352. Yay! I have been singled out for moderation. Can’t have anyone singing off key, can we?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  353. Since this is STILL waiting for “moderation”, let me see if I can get around those filters.

    So, but using the magic time machine, you can say that in hindsight, Reid was lying? Great. But that was not contemporaneous facts know to anyone but Reid, were they? He was claiming to hear it from a guy who saw the return. And yes, it was fishy, but so is the “mob ties” horse hockey being bandied about by Cruz. There is not a single real estate developer (including the city of NY) who don’t have “ties” to the mob. The mob controls the construction trades in NY, NJ and PA. And even if you were able to find a single contractor with absolutely no relation with any mob member, past, current or future, you would then run the risk of having “unfortunate” accidents and missing shipments of materials (don’t forget the Teamsters).

    But where does Cruz get his information that the tax return will show direct mob ties? A secret source? Or is he just recycling decades old gossip and tying that to his demands for Trump to release his taxes (as if that is somehow more moral than simply lying about the source of the rumor like Reid)? It’s a sensationalistic grab for headlines (just like Reid) to pressure him into revealing the contents of his Sch A. Nothing more, nothing less. And if release of those documents were so important to you and Cruz, he would have released his already and you would be crying for his head on a stake for being a slimy politician. But he isn’t, and you aren’t, so we no there are no principles involved here. Just naked ambition and hatred.

    And for the second time, how would a tax return show mob ties?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  354. 348. Be a dear and please tell me which line on your 1040 is your net worth? I’ll even settle for assets held.

    Yeah. That’s what I thought. A whole eight paragraphs devoted to broadcasting your ignorance for the whole world to see. Congrats.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 2/29/2016 @ 9:31 am

    Prowlerguy, kindly point to where I said you’d find his net worth written on a particular line?

    Yeah, that’s what I thought.

    I never said you’d find it written out anywhere in nice big numbers for you to just read. But you’ll find the almost all the clues you need to determine someone’s net worth, and if that someone may be hiding assets or sources of income, in their tax return.

    The tax return isn’t a ledger listing all assets and liabilities. It’s the road map, the key, the first place you look if you need to investigate someone to find out what they have and if they’re hiding something.

    You’d know that if you had ever been involved in an investigation of someone with a security clearance who was suspected of selling secrets. You know, are they living beyond their means?

    And let me spell it out for you, since you seem to have a problem understanding plain English. I’m not and never would be one of the guys to actually do the forensic accounting. I said involved, but not with that part.

    Of course, these kinds of investigations into a person’s net worth, and potential hidden assets and sources of income aren’t just for counter intelligence, terror funding, or even just ordinary criminal investigations. They’re also part of divorce proceedings involving high net worth individuals like Trump. And Trump knows this, even if you don’t. He’s also got to know that the Democrats have hundreds if not thousands of CPAs and tax attorneys just salivating to go over those documents; they’d be a gold mine. Again, even though you clearly don’t know that.

    Thanks for revealing your ignorance, prowlerguy.

    I’m amazed at your cluelessness. It’s amusing you thought you were embarrassing me. But thanks for giving me the opportunity to embarrass you. Next time read for comprehension and know what you’re talking about before you end up hitting yourself in the face with a figurative shovel.

    Steve57 (5891a6)

  355. So Steve57, releasing his 1040 would have no bearing whatsoever on whether he was a billionaire or not. He would NOT have “had a $5 billion dollar windfall if he had produced the tax records that would have proved he is actually the billionaire he claims he is” as you claimed. You have now admitted as much. Thank you. I’m not seeing how that is embarrassing to me. I do see how being 100% wrong and having to admit it could be embarrassing to you, but then those who cower far from danger while claiming the title of warrior are beyond embarrassment.

    All your huffing and puffing is to now claim that if you can see a person’s INCOME from their taxes, then you automatically know what their assets are, hidden or otherwise. What a ridiculous claim. A person may own a multi-dollar business and take a relatively small salary (see Sam Walton), or a person may have extremely large income, but no assets to speak of (see most NFL players). And if a person is being paid off the books, then the tax return will provide no insight into where or what those assets are. However, most criminals steal because they are envious, and they can’t resist buying the things they envied. Cars, houses, boats. And those things are easily found. So all a tax return can do is show that the assets that are usually easily found are not possible with the reported income levels. THEN you have the beginnings of a circumstantial case. But if the criminal is cagey and buys assets that don’t leave paper trails, and doesn’t buy a nice car or a new house, then you are out of luck as an forensic investigator.

    Since you bring up SBIs, you of course know that part of the submission is a consent to access bank and brokerage records. For criminal investigations, a warrant can grant that authority. But we aren’t talking about either situation here. We are talking about a candidate for President. What LEGAL investigative tools would be available that the tax records would provide guidance on? Real estate deeds are all recorded as public records. Same with trusts, vehicle (air, sea, land) registration, and corporations. Without illegal access or a court order, how would you use a tax return to prove a person’s net worth or show illegal activity?

    Democrats have hundreds if not thousands of CPAs and tax attorneys just salivating to go over those documents; they’d be a gold mine

    Finally you said something that was partially the truth. But not because it would show net worth or what assets he owns. Because the Sch A would include charitable donations and gambling losses, and that is the “gotcha” that Cruz fans are praying for. So Democrats aren’t salivating, the also-rans in the primary are. Which is why this site is going over the top with claims of mob ties as a reason to release Trump’s returns.

    prowlerguy (3af7ff)

  356. So, but using the magic time machine, you can say that in hindsight, Reid was lying? Great. But that was not contemporaneous facts know to anyone but Reid, were they? He was claiming to hear it from a guy who saw the return.

    Wrong. There is no hindsight involved. It was clear at the time that he was lying, because by his own description of his alleged informant, that person was never in any position to have seen the returns.

    But where does Cruz get his information that the tax return will show direct mob ties? A secret source?

    No, he doesn’t claim to have any such information. He is simply making a reasonable speculation, based on what is publicly known about Trump.

    So Steve57, releasing his 1040 would have no bearing whatsoever on whether he was a billionaire or not.

    Um, yes, it certainly would. As Steve explained at length.

    He would NOT have “had a $5 billion dollar windfall if he had produced the tax records that would have proved he is actually the billionaire he claims he is” as you claimed.

    Trump claimed he would; he’s the one who put the frivolous $5B price tag on his frivolous lawsuit. That it would never have happened just shows once more how dishonest he is.

    I’m not seeing how that is embarrassing to me.

    No, you’re not seeing it. That’s not to your credit.

    All your huffing and puffing is to now claim that if you can see a person’s INCOME from their taxes, then you automatically know what their assets are, hidden or otherwise.

    No, Steve did not claim that you automatically know it, but that you have powerful clues that will let you find it out.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  357. Prowlerguy, you really need to stop embarrassing yourself. Milhouse filleted you pretty well. So I’m not going to repeat what he said.

    But this bit of ignorance I have to address.

    355. … Without illegal access or a court order, how would you use a tax return to prove a person’s net worth or show illegal activity?

    prowlerguy (3af7ff) — 3/1/2016 @ 8:08 am

    You do not use the tax return to prove it in court. You use the tax return to discover the illegal activity. To prove it beyond a reasonable doubt you’d need more evidence. The tax return tells you where to look.

    But then, I’m not accusing Trump of illegal activity. I’m accusing Trump of lying about his net worth. And you sure as h3ll would know, using the tax return as a roadmap and other investigative techniques such as lifestyle analysis, local, state, and court record searches (again, the tax return would point you in the right direction and tell you where to look), public record searches, etc., if Trump is worth over $10 billion like he claims or $1 billion or even less.

    That you’d be able to determine with a very good degree of accuracy.

    Apparently you’re a Trump fan. Well, I hate to be the one to break the news to you, prowlerguy, but if Trump released his tax returns you’d be able to determine if Trump is lying about his net worth.

    And, no, to spell it out for you in simple English, it will not hand you a nice tidy sum on some line of the forms or schedules. You will not “see” his net worth just by looking at his tax returns. But you’d be able to use his tax returns to determine his net worth, and if he’s lying about it.

    Again, Trump knows this, even if you don’t and are determined to refuse to acknowledge facts.

    Steve57 (1ace39)


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