Patterico's Pontifications

1/27/2016

Man Shot and Killed by Feds in Connection with Oregon Standoff

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:42 am



OregonLive.com:

Oregon standoff spokesman Robert “LaVoy” Finicum was killed and other leaders of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupation were arrested Tuesday after the FBI and state police stopped vehicles about 20 miles north of Burns.

Authorities did not release the name of the person who died at the highway stop, but Finicum’s daughter confirmed it was Finicum, 55, of Cane Beds, Arizona, one of the cowboy-hat wearing faces of the takeover.

Another of the arrestees, Ryan Bundy, received a minor gunshot wound. Ammon Bundy claims Finicum was cooperating:

Also arrested during the stop were his brother, Ammon Bundy, 40, of Emmett, Idaho, Ryan W. Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Mont., Brian Cavalier, 44, of Bunkerville, Nevada, and Shawna J. Cox, 59, of Kanab, Utah. They were charged with conspiracy to impede federal officers, a felony.

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife, Lisa Bundy, from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.

Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bundy family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police when he was shot.

But sources told The Oregonian/OregonLive that Finicum and Ryan Bundy disobeyed orders to surrender and resisted arrest. No other details were available.

As articulated, that’s a rather thin justification for shooting someone. Was he armed? Did he point a gun? Did he appear to be reaching for a gun? Were there any body cameras?

I assume we’ll be hearing more about this. Law enforcement knew they were dealing with a group of people that had members who declared they were armed and prepared for a shootout if necessary. Still (unless only #BlackLivesMatter), mere disobedience of orders and resisting arrest is generally thought to be insufficient, without more, to justify shooting and killing someone.

137 Responses to “Man Shot and Killed by Feds in Connection with Oregon Standoff”

  1. Maybe they can get the Waco, Texas PD to investigate and report.

    Anchovy (c8605e)

  2. conspiracy to impede federal officers

    good lord where would these federal pansies be if their special snowflake status wasn’t enshrined in failmerican law

    happyfeet (831175)

  3. 18 U.S. Code § 372 – Conspiracy to impede or injure officer

    If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.
    (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)

    nk (dbc370)

  4. yeah that’s not a level playing field I don’t think Mr. nk

    happyfeet (831175)

  5. The survivors should be grateful that there is no federal felony murder, in the original meaning that somebody was killed during the commission of a felony, regardless of whether the felon was the one who killed him or conspired with anyone to kill him.

    But let’s wait 24 hours, and not take the word of trashy propaganda media sluts for anything just yet.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. yes yes i agree

    happyfeet (831175)

  7. This is crazy to shoot someone in a face and not simply wound them! Why isn’t any major news org. Showing any of this? Are they scared to let this out?

    Jennifer (4e5ffc)

  8. The FBI laid in wait. Ambush. Traffic cops from Washington?
    Occupying a place while they’re driving? Not even remotely possible.

    The was not shot by “feds”. Unless the murderer’s name happened to be Feds.

    Feds Weever? Feds Johnson?

    The shooter has a name. It’s not “feds”.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  9. Too early to tell what happened. I don’t know that I’d take anything Bundy says without verifying. He has reason to lie. Also, he was in handcuffs in a police vehicle when the shooting occurred. I doubt he had the best view. Finicum had indicated he wouldn’t give up without a fight. His prior statements indicate he may have resisted. If he was armed (seems likely), then it is quite possible he attempted to pull the weapon. Here’s hoping they have some video of this, which shows what happened.

    Bill M (906260)

  10. Looking forward to the endless protests and media support of the white lives matter movement after a government agent shot an innocent white guy.

    I think I have a better shot at winning the Powerball than waiting for that to happen. White Privilege indeed.

    njrob (fa8906)

  11. Great. Looks like I won’t be able to shop on Michigan Avenue again.

    CrustyB (69f730)

  12. This just further demonstrates the massive double standard that exists when it comes to dealing with political activism. What exactly did these people do that was any different than Occupy Wall Street, which squatted on public property for months, or the union sympathizers who occupied the Wisconsin capitol building for weeks, or the assorted riots and major highway and bridge occupations by BLM and the Hands-Up-Don’t-Shoot crowd?

    The idea that snipers and SWAT teams should immediately swoop in and capture or kill demonstrators for left-wing causes never happens. It would be considered an outrageous abuse of power. There would be a media firestorm and major political blowback against the authorities. Indeed, we’ve seen major Democrat politicians, including the President and former Speaker of the House openly support such actions and work behind the scenes to protect, enable or excuse left wing activists engaging in all manner of “civil disobedience,” including riots, looting, occupations, sit-ins, etc.

    Yet from the first day, nearly everyone, left and right, was either calling for the Bundy group to be responded to with lethal violence or accepting/expecting the possibility of a violent and lethal response. It’s absolutely bizarre to see even the supposed limited government types fall into this mindset so easily.

    Damselfly (5cba1a)

  13. Speaking from under the tarp on one of the first nights of the occupation, he told reporters that he would rather be killed than be arrested. “I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box,” Finicum said. “There are things more important than your life and freedom is one of them…I’m prepared to defend freedom.”
    http://gawker.com/report-oregon-militia-spokesman-robert-lavoy-finicum-1755367433

    nk (dbc370)

  14. The FBI agents, knowing that they’d get to kill Finicum, must have had a hard time deciding who got to do the deed. Did they draw straws, or was it done by seniority? Or maybe they had a rookie who hadn’t been able to participate in Ruby Ridge or Waco and needed the experience.

    This was an ambush. The photos released from the scene show a highway patrolman with an M16 slung across his body. It’s been my experience that traffic stops, for a burned out turn signal say, are normally done without machine guns.

    The road to the center they had “occupied” has been shut down. Is it unreasonable to suspect that one team of agents is busy planting “evidence” that will later be “discovered” by a second team? At the very least we can expect the charges to be revised to include failing to wash and dry the dishes, parking in the director’s parking space, failure to lock the door when leaving, and of course, arson charges, with mandatory 5-year terrorism penalties, for the use of the fire pit without a permit.

    Our tax money at work.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  15. #crackerlivesdontmatter

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  16. This is crazy to shoot someone in a face and not simply wound them!

    There is no such thing as shooting to wound.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  17. Is it unreasonable to suspect that one team of agents is busy planting “evidence” that will later be “discovered” by a second team?

    Yes, it is unreasonable. there is no foundation for any of your allegations. Everyone, including you, knows that that these people did not recognise the FBI’s authority to arrest them, and were armed; that alone makes it more likely than not that they would resist with arms any attempt to arrest them. So when you hear that the arrest resulted in one of them being killed it stands to reason that they did as expected, with the expected result.

    If the “Occupy” thugs had used deadly force to resist arrest they’d have been killed too, just like all those black thugs who get killed when they threaten the arresting officers’ lives.

    You can’t be denying that they’re criminals in the first place. There’s no way to deny that they are occupying property that doesn’t belong to them.

    The photos released from the scene show a highway patrolman with an M16 slung across his body. It’s been my experience that traffic stops, for a burned out turn signal say, are normally done without machine guns.

    Who claims this was a random traffic stop? This was an attempt to arrest a gang of armed criminals; of course you take appropriate weapons to do that.

    Are you claiming the feds shouldn’t have tried to arrest them?! I recall one of the claims against the BATF in Waco was that they had no need to raid the compound to arrest Koresh, they could have arrested him on one of his regular visits to town. Isn’t that exactly what they were doing now? Instead of raiding the occupied building they arrested the criminals while on their way to town. Isn’t that the best place to do it, where there’s no risk of collateral damage in a shootout?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  18. there is no foundation for any of your allegations

    This is the Obama Justice Department. We have seven years of experience with how it operates, and it suggests that almost anything is possible. Fast and Furious remind you of anything? Denying purple hearts to the survivors of the Ft. Hood massacre which reduced the medical benefits they were entitled to? The IRS targeting of political “enemies”? Sending the Hammonds to jail for five years? Ignoring rioters and focusing on police officers who in general have behaved well?

    Everything is political to this crowd, and shooting some white guys will play well to their base, especially all those precious little flowers enjoying a month of rejecting “white privilege” at your local institution of higher learning.

    This crew will do anything it wants to do. The question is what do they have to gain from their actions. A lack of specific motivation is all that protects any of us. Think of all the SWAT teams that each piddling little agency has created. They will be used for something.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  19. yes, we see how the travismockasham is approved of here:

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2016/01/27/hey-the-makers-of-those-planned-parenthood-videos-deserved-to-be-charged-with-felonies/

    we know the players in Harnett, are not playing with a clean deck, Donald Douglas, vouches for Finicum, in at least one board,

    narciso (732bc0)

  20. naciso, I have to ask you—why do you always end your comments with a comma, rather than a period?

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  21. I am massively confused.

    According to the #BlackLivesMatter crew, white privilege means only unarmed black teenagers get shot by the cops.

    My head is spinning.

    Steve57 (f61b03)

  22. This was an attempt to arrest a gang of armed criminals

    The Feds can make anyone a criminal, they can even turn a rancher into a terrorist by defining a backfire to be an act of arson. It’s just a matter of words. Criminals used to rob banks, embezzle funds, murder innocents, kidnap children, commit mayhem, smuggle and sell illegal drugs, riot, loot, burn neighborhoods, commit acts of treason and espionage, desert from the Armed Forces, to name a few. But the Federal agencies are pursuing different agendas, and the universe of criminal activities has expanded accordingly. Construct a watering hole for your livestock with a state permit, and you’re liable to be fined $37,000 a day by the EPA with Army Corps of Engineers stooges grinning in the background. Level a lot for a new home, same deal, $37,000 a day. Even CO2 is has been defined as a pollutant, and the very act of exhaling (with a C02 concentration of about 40,000 ppm,) could be declared a violation of some regulatory act with the proper motivation.

    My hunch is that Finicum was unarmed, but he wouldn’t submit to arrest. So they off’ed him. Perhaps with an “accidental” discharge. Score one for the DoJ.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  23. Sometimes everybody’s wrong.

    A whole bunch of people, including those out of state, occupied the Wisconsin capitol building against the law, disrupted the affairs of law abiding citizens, caused thousands if not millions of dollars of damage,
    and I don’t remember the FBI setting up roadblocks to apprehend people and provoke a conflict.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  24. just the folks who absconded from the Texas Legislature, to prevent a quorum,

    narciso (732bc0)

  25. Milhouse, yes if the arrest was resisted by apparent threat of violence, deadly force by the police may be warranted. That is a fact question to be reviewed.

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  26. If the police effecting the arrest do not have body cams and dash cams – they are hiding something.

    This was a planned ambush arrest of a high profile civil protester, not to record the event is the express desire to obscure events and escape proper review.

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  27. The BurnsTimesHerald has been covering this story. Here’s a quote from a comment posted on Jan 15th by a fellow named Ellmyer. He kindly provides this summary of his qualifications: [Author of] “The Ellmyer Report, a political report, analysis and commentary distributed to more the a quarter of a million reader/voters in Oregon as well as the local, state and national Press.”

    Special Agent in Charge of the Oregon FBI, Gregory T. Bretzing is following his colleague, Special Agent in Charge of the Nevada FBI, Larua A. Bucheit , down a very, very dangerous path. Bucheit abandoned her responsibility to arrest armed, white, Mormon, male Cliven Bundy for failure to pay one million dollars in federal grazing fees. Would her “equal justice under the law” behavior have been different if her target was an unarmed, dark skinned woman who was a Muslim or an atheist? Her cowardice in the line of duty inspired Cliven Bundy’s sons to lead an armed invasion to capture the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Bretzing, a Mormon himself, has refused for almost two weeks of occupation to publicly take personal responsibility as the primary law enforcement decision maker or take any action to do his duty to expel and arrest the armed, white, Mormon, male Bundy brothers and their coconspirators.

    Looks as though the occupiers in addition to being white were also, Oh My Gosh!, Mormons! And so is the FBI man! As you can see, Mr. Ellmyer was beside himself over the failure to act by the FBI. Another example of white privilege. And the religious affiliation of the occupiers certainly puts this all in a different light.

    Ellmyer’s comment presents another view, and perhaps puts some of the local animosity in a different light? I particularly appreciated his description of the event as the capture the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. But no mention of the frequent occupations of cities, freeways, harbor terminals, railroad right-of-ways, and government offices by the administration’s pets. These seem to pass by “peacefully” as the occupiers run out of drugs and get bored with the whole thing. But, then again, the administration’s protesters may not be Mormons.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  28. https://disqus.com/by/disqus_VNcFVudrjw/ None of the Bundy “gang” drew weapons – all their hands were up.

    If the eyewitness is telling the truth this was a political killing.

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  29. A whole bunch of people, including those out of state, occupied the Wisconsin capitol building […] and I don’t remember the FBI setting up roadblocks to apprehend people and provoke a conflict.

    It had nothing to do with the FBI. Why would they get involved? These people have occupied a federal facility, and they’re armed and willing to fight; who but the FBI should arrest them? And where better to do so than in a car on an isolated road, with no bystanders to get hurt?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  30. details, schmetails,
    state patrol then, Milhouse

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  31. If the police effecting the arrest do not have body cams and dash cams – they are hiding something.

    As far as I know this is not the FBI’s usual practise, so why should they have done it this time? The FBI don’t even record interviews forcryinoutloud (as we found out at Scooter Libby’s trial), so I doubt they even possess bodycams.

    This was a planned ambush arrest of a high profile civil protester

    Wrong. It was an arrest of common criminals, no better than any other gangsters.

    If the eyewitness is telling the truth this was a political killing.

    Really. “Hands up don’t shoot”. Where have we heard that story before? When Michael Brown’s buddy Dorian Johnson gave his “eyewitness account”, I bet you didn’t give it any more credit than it deserved, i.e. none at all. Why would you give more than that to the account of a member of this gang? (If she was in the car with them then she was by definition one of them, since they were coming from the occupied property.)

    Milhouse (87c499)

  32. details, schmetails,
    state patrol then, Milhouse

    The police union was working hand in hand with the protesters, doc. They let them in, and of course refused to arrest them. Do you want the FBI to do the same?!

    Milhouse (87c499)

  33. Steve, this audio is difficult to listen to, and pretty awful when you think of what must have been going on. If I understand the woman correctly, the car was stopped, the men had their hands out the windows of the car, one man on each side, when someone outside the car opened fire on the men in the front seat, missing everyone. They then pulled their hands into the car and drove off. They were then stopped at a road block, driving or sliding into a snow bank, (perhaps in an attempt to drive around the roadblock?) and all hell broke lose. Finicum exited the vehicle with his hands up, and was shot, and fell to the ground. Once on the ground he was shot multiple times. Then they opened fire on the car.

    No wonder they’ve sealed everything off. The car must be quite a sight with all the bullet holes. It’s amazing that only one other person was wounded.

    This sounds like the newspaper ladies who had their pickup truck shredded by gunfire during the hunt of the ex-cop in L. A.

    I wonder if any of our elite lawyers will be interested in this, or should we expect the eight survivors to disappear into the gulag? They’ve no doubt wracked up million of dollars in fines by this time, and the are subject to a lot of coercion. At the very least they owe the cops for a few hundred rounds of 9 mm ammunition.

    Yes, nk, they were (alleged) criminals, and they certain got what you think they deserved. Simply fleeing the site of an attempted assassination is no doubt a serious Federal Felony. But we continue to live in the best of possible worlds, don’t we.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  34. I am massively confused.

    According to the #BlackLivesMatter crew, white privilege means only unarmed black teenagers get shot by the cops.

    My head is spinning.

    And that is precisely the point. We all know that the #BLM crew are full of ****. But those getting upset at this are their exact equivalent, pretending that there’s a “pervasive bias” in favor of blacks, Moslems, etc. It’s obvious to anyone with no such obsessions that there is no pervasive bias in either direction. There is no “structural racism” and there is no whatever it is that the Sovereign Citizen nuts claim there is.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  35. Yes, nk, they were (alleged) criminals,

    There’s nothing alleged about their crimes. Do you deny that they invaded and are forcibly occupying property that belongs to the US government? Do you claim they have any legal excuse for being on that property? And they’re not just there for a short time to make a point; they’ve announced their intention of keeping it and putting it to economic use for themselves. Would you tolerate anyone doing that to your property?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  36. The Feds can make anyone a criminal, they can even turn a rancher into a terrorist by defining a backfire to be an act of arson.

    Setting a fire that destroys property is arson. It’s always been arson. And a jury found them guilty of doing that. The jury rejected their claim that it was a legal backfire intended to remain on their own property, presumably because they believed the prosecution’s evidence that the fire was started on the federal property for thye purpose of covering up poaching.

    Criminals used to rob banks, embezzle funds, murder innocents, kidnap children, commit mayhem, smuggle and sell illegal drugs, riot, loot, burn neighborhoods, commit acts of treason and espionage, desert from the Armed Forces, to name a few.

    There has never been a time when forcibly invading and occupying someone else’s property was not a crime.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  37. yes, it was their property, they are the last tenants on the land, recall the runaway grand juries in Houston and Austin

    narciso (732bc0)

  38. Milhouse you are an apologist for police misconduct. If the eyewitness account if even close to accurate, the police who shot deserve to be imprisoned themselves.

    If the eyewitness is not accurate, then the police still need to justify use of deadly force. Not to have police recordings of the event means the police decided to obscure their own conduct.

    Note that I use the term police generically, so get off your semantic idiocy regarding “FBI.”

    And by the way, the local Sheriff had officers and vehicles on the scene as well.

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  39. the feds should definitely not get the benefit of the doubt cause they’re not good people

    happyfeet (831175)

  40. Milhouse, this protest was the most unobtrusive event I can imagine. An unused, closed for the winter, wildlife refuge many miles from anyone else. But the DoJ couldn’t tolerate this.

    What about protests that close down Federal buildings as we saw so often during the Reagan-Bush-Bush years? Shot to kill? No indeed. No prosecutions, no arrests, nothing. Those protests served their political masters, and they made sure that every thing was greased. Ditto the recent occupy Wall St., despite observable violations of the law and even a rape if memory serves.

    These protesters were harmless, by intent. But they weren’t in the employ of political interests that could protect them. Worse, it is reported that they were MORMONS!!!

    And the issue isn’t “racism”, it is just good old fashion politics. Socialist tyranny versus men who wish to be free. The administration has well defined racial groups that constitute its base, and so they get special treatment. But it is the link to socialism, aka central control of everything, that is the underlying issue. It just manifests in a racial way due to the administrations preferences.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  41. Hey Milhouse, do you justify Ruby Ridge, the Waco Assault (we had to burn the kids to save the kids), Elian Gonzales (at least none of the SWAT kidnappers killed anyone) with the same disregard for evidence?

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  42. there is no foundation for any of your allegations

    This is the Obama Justice Department. We have seven years of experience with how it operates, and it suggests that almost anything is possible

    “Almost anything is possible” is not a foundation for any specific claim. If “almost anything is possible” then should we accept a claim that 0bama is really a Lizard Person, or that he’s got human parts in his freezer like Jean-Bedel Bokassa had, or that FBI agents routinely engage in pack rapes?! Of course not.

    Sending the Hammonds to jail for five years?

    Five years is the statutory minimum for the crime they were convicted of. There has never been a time when the prosecutors would not have appealed a sentence so far below the minimum. Personally I would defer to the trial judge who was familiar with the facts and decided that this arson was of so picayune a nature that the minimum sentence was too much. But would you give the same deference to a Judge Baer who exercises the same discretion with some black kid who was caught holding someone else’s drug stash? Or would you be howling for the statutory minimum to be applied and for the judge to be impeached?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  43. Hey Milhouse, do you justify Ruby Ridge, the Waco Assault (we had to burn the kids to save the kids), Elian Gonzales (at least none of the SWAT kidnappers killed anyone) with the same disregard for evidence?

    None of those cases have any connection to this one.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  44. yes, it was their property, they are the last tenants on the land, recall the runaway grand juries in Houston and Austin

    It is not their property. It’s not even anywhere near their property. I don’t understand how you could be under the impression that they have any conceivable claim to this property.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  45. Yes, nk, they were (alleged) criminals, and they certain got what you think they deserved. Simply fleeing the site of an attempted assassination is no doubt a serious Federal Felony. But we continue to live in the best of possible worlds, don’t we.

    Whoa! Where did I say any such things? Did you mean Milhouse, Bob?

    nk (dbc370)

  46. Milhouse you are an apologist for police misconduct. If the eyewitness account if even close to accurate, the police who shot deserve to be imprisoned themselves.

    And if Dorian Johnson’s account were even close to accurate Darren Wilson would deserve to be imprisoned, right? But I’ll bet you didn’t believe Johnson any more than I did. The question is why you believe this criminal.

    If the eyewitness is not accurate, then the police still need to justify use of deadly force. Not to have police recordings of the event means the police decided to obscure their own conduct.

    That could only be true if it were routine for them to record their activities. We know that the FBI don’t even record their interviews, so why do you imagine they would routinely record their arrests, so that it would be unusual for them not to have recorded this one?

    Note that I use the term police generically, so get off your semantic idiocy regarding “FBI.”

    These weren’t generic police, though. These were FBI agents, so the only relevant standard is whatever the FBI usually do.

    And by the way, the local Sheriff had officers and vehicles on the scene as well.

    And therefore? What is the significance of this information? Is it that sheriff’s usual practise to record arrests?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  47. I see you agree with the FBI practice not to record their interaction with US Citizens.

    This practice is abusive. If this practice continues, you will see more and more abuse by officials.

    If our police officials are not accountable for their actions, we live in a police state – no matter what the conduct, and what the laws say.

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  48. the feds should definitely not get the benefit of the doubt cause they’re not good people

    As a general proposition, I agree, but we have no specific information about the agents involved in this case, whereas we know for a fact that those in the car were not good people. Therefore they definitely don’t deserve the benefit of any doubt.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  49. I see you agree with the FBI practice not to record their interaction with US Citizens.

    This practice is abusive.

    The FBI has no “practice” of not recording; it simply doesn’t have a practice of recording. Your construction requires a presumption that it is normal for police forces to always record such interactions, that such recording is the default to be expected of all such bodies, and therefore the FBI’s failure to do so requires an explanation. Perhaps at this time, with the ready availability of such technology, this should be expected of all forces everywhere. But the fact is that it’s not routine. Many such forces don’t record, or do so only sporadically. And the FBI is so far behind the times that even interviews, which almost everyone else records, it doesn’t. This is not an abusive practice in itself, it merely leaves open the possibility of abuse. If we don’t know what they’re doing then we won’t know when they do something wrong.

    But whether recording should or shouldn’t be a routine practise, the fact is that it isn’t, and therefore there is no significance to the lack of such recording in this case. If indeed there is no recording. Maybe the FBI has recently upgraded its equipment and practices.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  50. If our police officials are not accountable for their actions, we live in a police state – no matter what the conduct, and what the laws say.

    Until a few years ago no police wore bodycams. Did we live in a police state then?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  51. What about protests that close down Federal buildings as we saw so often during the Reagan-Bush-Bush years?

    Can you give a few examples?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  52. The FBI has no “practice” of not recording; it simply doesn’t have a practice of recording.

    That’s a line right out of Lawyer Bull-Sh!t 101.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  53. We do live in a police state. Only China and India have more police than we do.

    As for the FBI not recording themselves, they are a secret police and one of their secrets is the way they conduct their operations.

    nk (dbc370)

  54. well certainly in Chitown, complete with black sites,

    narciso (732bc0)

  55. yes yes here in chicago a pikachu tries very hard to fly under the radar

    but a lot of the piggy-poos – they’re in my airspace!

    no fair!

    happyfeet (831175)

  56. The main weapon of the American police state is cop-to-cop communication. If I run away from a cop writing me a parking ticket in Chicago, I will be in a cop car’s computer outside Texas A&M quicker than it takes to tell it, and then it’s the Waller County Jail raperoom.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. nk, my apologies. You are correct, Milhouse was the source of the concept that since these are (?) felons, they have no rights and ambush by the authorities is only sensible. I was just wondering whether they had the right to flee assassins, but that was a rhetorical question. Once a policeman opens fire on you, you are as good as dead, so fleeing is not recommended. Just suck it up and die.

    But Milhouse has insights to human nature that have eluded me:

    whereas we know for a fact that those in the car were not good people.

    Compared to what I’ve seen in the way of protests that have never resulted in arrests or prosecutions, and these dating back to the 1960’s, the refuge occupiers were very benign. They were a good deal less threatening, and probably less well armed, than any number of incoming 9th graders in the schools I used to coach in. I can come to no conclusion as to whether they were good or bad people based on their decision to protest BLM policies. But, we do know some of them were MORMONS.

    Milhouse also made the point that a court determined that the Hammond’s backfires were arson. Case closed as far a he’s concerned. But this avoids the responsibility to see for yourself what is going on. It makes no sense to deny that backfires are routine and needed in some locales, like the Hammond’s ranch, just because a bunch of city-folk bought into a prosecutor’s lies and distortions. As an officer of the court(?), Milhouse may be obliged to believe such crap, and it must be a comfort when he sees good people incarcerated, (“I guess they were bad guys after all?”,) but I am not required compliment the King on his new apparel.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  58. Well, fleeing is not an element of the impeding statute. You need force, intimidation, threats, injury or destruction of property.

    nk (dbc370)

  59. Here’s one example of the double standard. Protesters occupied a campus building for over 40 days, renamed it, and presented a list of nine demands, including funding, hiring and firing of staff, respect and no retaliation for their leadership, and control over curriculum. They disrupted classes for other students and were asked to leave, but refused. Were these students branded criminals and lawbreakers and subjected to arrest, violence, fines or imprisonment? Hahaha!

    From the Lost Coast Outpost by Ryan Burns, regarding Humboldt State, a California State university:

    On the eve of January 19th, 2015 Martin Luther King Day, Native students and allies at Humboldt State University took residence at the Native American Forum on HSU campus, re-naming it the Dr. Jacquelyn Bolman Forum.

    The announcement that students planned to remain in the building came after a 2-day long Native American Activism Conference, where speakers from across the state presented on a variety of issues faced by Indigenous Peoples at Humboldt State…

    “HSU is not living up to their own mission statement to support and celebrate diversity. We will occupy the Dr. Jacquelyn Bolman Forum until our demands are met.”

    “There has been ethnotrauma and lots of feelings of distress from students of color,” Caliguiri said. “And it’s because we’re living in a consistent state of fear of our programs being cut, our funds being cut. We’re trying to get a higher education, and it’s very challenging to do that with these special programs being cut on a regular basis.”

    …In preparation for mediations scheduled between the students, President, and key members of Humboldt State University administrators on March 3rd, the Unified students have decided to suspend the round-the-clock demonstration as an act of good faith, acknowledging President Rossbacher’s “commitment… to working with Native American students and tribal nations regarding definitions of student success, the characteristics of appropriate student support programs, the historical and future plans for program funding, the utilization of space in the Native American Forum, and clear plans for how this space will be used in the future.” Students expect the Forum to be respected as an Autonomous Center for Indigenous Learning.

    Damselfly (5cba1a)

  60. You don’t think guns make a big difference, Damselfly? I’ll repeat what I said earlier. If you are armed, the police will not wait for you to draw first or to shoot first. If they have a reason to believe that you might shoot them or innocent bystanders at some point, they will escalate the situation where any shooting that happens is on their terms and they have every possible advantage.

    nk (dbc370)

  61. the circumstances don’t really matter, just some ‘bitter clingers’ that the authorities consider expendable,

    narciso (732bc0)

  62. nk, the only thing I’m sure the police knew in the present situation was that their targets were MORMONS, and they were headed for their second appearance at a community meeting. The first meeting, on Jan. 15th, went off without violence, and I would presume the protesters were unarmed in anticipation of attending the second meeting.

    As for guns, almost all the European Axis prisoners we took in WWII began their internment by raising their hands and walking towards their captors. We knew they were all armed (at some point,) but we shot relatively few of them outright. It was a different story in the Pacific, but even there raising your hands and surrendering to our soldiers improved you life expectancy from seconds to decades.

    Not so on the road leading to Burns, Oregon. Both hands out the car window and BLAM!!!

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  63. College occupations are a whole nother story. College administrations are so rotten with leftist ideology that they have no solid ground on which to stand in opposing occupiers. Many of them did the same thing in their student days, or supported those who did, so they have the concept in their heads that this is a valid thing to do and must not be resisted. Try “sitting in” at Quantico and you’ll find out what the FBI thinks of it.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  64. The FBI has no “practice” of not recording; it simply doesn’t have a practice of recording.

    That’s a line right out of Lawyer Bull-Sh!t 101.

    No, it’s a simple fact. The FBI has never (as far as anyone knows) decided not to record things. Originally nobody recorded anything because the technology didn’t exist; recently some other forces decided to start recording, but the FBI didn’t. Not changing long-standing practice needn’t be a conscious decision, let alone one made out of malice (though it can be).

    Milhouse (87c499)

  65. We all know that early details can be mistaken,
    but many of us also have no confidence in this DOJ.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  66. you cannot be too cynical when it comes to these folks,

    narciso (732bc0)

  67. Milhouse, I’ve been looking for closures of the Federal Building in Seattle (named after Scoop Jackson) and I haven’t found any. The TV news clips from the Iraq invasion days are no longer available using existing URL-links, but what I can recall is that public access to the buildings was often halted during the protests, or such were the reports aired by the media. But in those days, the public simply walked in with no screening. Perhaps it is different now and the public can come and go if they are simply willing to chance dealing with the protesters. It was also the case that downtown Seattle and I-5 were often impassable on the days of these events, which effectively blocked public access. But public access to a Federal Building is probably the least important aspect of their operation. Which makes me wonder what they do after all?

    So score one for the Dark Side.

    But I’ll keep looking.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  68. In reading a few news reports, and what the LE (FBI?) spokesman said,
    there is no, nada, zilch, mention of any weapons carried by the protesters.

    I’m guessing that if they were armed, they would have been quick to mention that. That would make it easy to justify the need for deadly force.
    Instead, you’ve got an army of county, state, and federal police confronting 2 cars of people,
    and unarmed people get killed???

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  69. The practice of not recording by the FBI has been the subject of much criticism and debate. That the FBI adheres to technological obsolescence is a policy choice that harms the citizens of the nation. The purpose of this failure, in the face of the fact that even podunk municipalities with less than 25k population so protect their officers and citizens, is certainly a valid question to be explored – especially when reviewing a political arrest being made at an established roadblock where the police have overwhelming presence – over a dozen vehicles and a roadblock and what 20 or so armed officers against a half dozen men and women who had not committed any violent act, were in fact travelling a public road en route to a known public meeting. It is clear, the officers wished to isolate these citizens in order to effect their arrest. It is a valid deduction that serving the arrest warrants away from the public meeting was for the purpose of avoiding the public viewing of the arrest. If the police did not themselves record the arrest, then it is a valid deduction that the did not want to be accountable for whatever happened at the arrest.

    Steve Malynn (b5f891)

  70. How was Jesse James killed?
    John Dillinger?
    Bonnie and Clyde?
    (The McLowerys at the OK Corral are disputed, but I’m inclined to believe the account that Doc Holiday shot first, the first shots of the fight, getting them both with his shotgun.)

    That’s what I meant by the police will fight you on their terms. They won’t give you a fair fight. They’ll get you when you’ve put down your gun and are feeding your baby. Or when you’re driving (maybe unarmed) looking forward to talking not shooting.

    nk (dbc370)

  71. #3: Wasn’t that law promulgated by George III?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  72. Well,
    I think all of those folks had already killed people, many even,
    those killed by those folks in Oregon all had 4 legs, or 2 legs and 2 wings.
    But your point is taken.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  73. So, a sit-in protest on federal land is a felony if it “impedes” one or more federal officer from walking in direction he chooses to go?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  74. well you notice in the clint eastwood westerns, the authorities are not always on the up and up, van cleef’s colonel, I forget in which film.

    narciso (732bc0)

  75. Van Cleef was a hired killer, turned treasure-hunter and sergeant in the Union Army, in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.
    He was a Virginia colonel, turned bounty hunter to avenge his sister in For A Few Dollars More. The first bad guy he shoots at in the movie is riding away but he only shoots his horse. When he gets back up and starts shooting at Van Cleef is when Van Cleef shoots him.
    Fun movies, and Once Upon A Time In The West the best western of all time in my opinion.

    And for you young’uns, Han Solo shot first. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  76. nk, regarding guns, I think it ultimately comes down to prejudices. For some people, country boys carrying holstered weapons for self-defense are just too foreign and scary, especially if they are wearing cowboy hats. They are obviously dangerous, ignorant people who are lookin’ to kill everybody on sight. The idea that they can exercise their 1st and 2nd amendment rights at the same time is just crazy. Anyone who isn’t willing to empty their pockets whenever Uncle Sam says so is just the lowest of the low.

    They obviously went about this the wrong way. They should have showed up at the nature refuge with dreadlocks and bongo drums and demanded federal funding to save the endangered rancher species and preserve historical cowboy culture.

    Damselfly (5cba1a)

  77. yes, but these are local lawenforcement, they have no excuse,

    narciso (732bc0)

  78. That’s what I meant by the police will fight you on their terms. They won’t give you a fair fight. They’ll get you when you’ve put down your gun and are feeding your baby. Or when you’re driving (maybe unarmed) looking forward to talking not shooting.

    As an old military guy, a fair fight is the last thing you want. That puts your guys in more danger. This is also the reason you see police officers firing multiple shots in shooting situations. More lead in the air increases the chance that the target will be hit and disabled/killed. I am not sure but I suspect they are taught to fire multiple times as a routine part of their training. The idea is to increase the chance the “bad guys” loose and the “good guys” survive (not making any good/bad assignment in the instant discussion). If Finicum had a weapon, fled the scene, crashed his vehicle and left the vehicle with a weapon in his hands, then he created the conditions for a shooting situation. Sounds like a low probability of survival scenario to me. I’ll wait for more details before I jump to or even lean toward any conclusions.

    If there were cameras running, the pictures may not be very useful. It occurred approaching 5 PM in Eastern Oregon. There are areas there with open fields and with forested highways. I have not seen anything about weather conditions, but it has been pretty cloudy here in the Seattle area. Depending on location, time and weather, visibility may not have been conducive to clear photography. I have seen a report that one person in the first vehicle stopped could see about 200 yards to where the second vehicle was stopped which would indicate enough light to see at least that far. In my opinion, there is not enough info available at this time to draw any conclusions and it is prudent to await more info.

    Bill M (906260)

  79. Always prudent to not jump to conclusions, I agree.
    I’ll just say again, there has been nothing said about what weapons they were carrying.
    I find that curious. I would think they would love to point out what arms they were carrying to make the case that deadly force was necessary.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly) (deca84)

  80. I believe police are taught to keep firing until it is clear that the “threat has been neutralized”, the big decision is whether deadly force is necessary.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly) (deca84)

  81. Captains journal has nother view.

    narciso (732bc0)

  82. Tennessee v. Garner, http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/471/1.html, is the constitutional (and nationwide) standard for a fleeing felon.

    This case requires us to determine the constitutionality of the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of an apparently unarmed suspected felon. We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

    nk (dbc370)

  83. As an old military guy, a fair fight is the last thing you want.

    Also as an old military guy I agree with Bill M. If it’s a fair fight you’re doing something wrong. Every man I killed in Nam I had the upper hand on or I wouldn’t be here.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  84. True,
    But even if one doesn’t agree with their cause, or at least the way they went about it,
    They had not demonstrated a desire to kill people.
    They were surrounded with an overwhelming force,
    An overwhelming force that had the equipment to be in little danger themselves while waiting for people to get out of their cars.

    “Hands up, don’t shoot” may or may not be closer to the truth here,
    Hopefully we will get clear evidence with time.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly) (deca84)

  85. This incident has many similarities to the Kent State shooting by the National Guard in 1970. In both cases the killers, the reservists and the deputy sheriffs, had been led to believe that violence was likely, and once they began shooting, they only stopped when they ran out of targets. At Kent State they killed four and wounded nine after firing 67 rounds in 13 seconds. In the case of Mr. Finicum, once he’d been put down, the car was the only object left down range, and I expect they probably fired until they had to reload, whereupon they may have noticed that that they were the only ones shooting.

    This doesn’t make Mr. Finicum any less dead.

    It will be interesting to see how quickly this incident is swept under the rug. Particularly in comparison to the huge impact of Kent State. The language of the local Sheriff suggests that everyone is quite happy that this has ended so “peacefully”, meaning he expects to get re-elected, none of his deputies are in the hospital, and the only victims were cowboys and MORMONS.

    It’s too bad that the locals didn’t just step back and let the Feds handle it. But talk in the town was pretty inflammatory, and the protesters had been marginalized. Reading the local news in Burns, the deputies were likely treating this as a rebellion and not a protest. The Cowboys were said to have “captured” the wildlife refuge, for example. Given this point of view, I’m sure the killers are pretty proud of themselves. Modern day William Tecumseh Shermans, so to speak. As it stands, this will just be Burn’s dirty little secret. Of course, the Feds might yet decide to up the ante for any remaining protesters rebels, say call in a C-130 gunship, but with the road blocked off, who’s to know?

    We’ve driven through that part of Oregon a number of times. I think I’ll be giving Burns a wide berth in any future trips.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  86. I understand your point, Bob,

    I’ll just say that the Kent state situation was much less secure and chaotic,
    in this situation in Oregon,
    I don’t know why the arresting folk would have had concerns about anything less than an RPG,
    I mean, they had not only body armor but shields and armored cars and what not.

    I guess it is a good thing they must be lousy marksmen to have emptied all of these clips into a car and not hit anybody.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  87. I saw a clip of some official, maybe FBI, that was as cold as ice,
    I guess the sheriff was a lot more disturbed by the event.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  88. LA Times is reporting that it was an Oregon State Trooper that shot Finicum…FWIW

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-refuge-lavoy-finicum-20160127-story.html

    CalFed (b3d50b)

  89. None of the Bundy “gang” drew weapons – all their hands were up.
    If the eyewitness is telling the truth this was a political killing.
    Steve Malynn — 1/27/2016 @ 2:34 pm

    And if Dorian Johnson was telling the truth, then Michael Brown was executed by Officer Wilson…only he wasn’t.

    The teenage girl, at this point, is a voice on a telephone telling a story on a Youtube video. She describes the Finicum’s truck as being riddled with hundreds on bullets. If that is true, it will certainly be visible.

    CalFed (b3d50b)

  90. All true,
    I’ll just say, if the group had no weapons (and none have been mentioned) and they were stopped by a sizable force heavily armed,
    it is a bit different that Ferguson,
    but the main point is the same, await details to shake out and get confirmed.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  91. well we know the backstory behind the persecutors, it will take a while to get the real story behind this incident

    narciso (732bc0)

  92. but the main point is the same, await details to shake out and get confirmed.
    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) — 1/28/2016 @ 3:51 pm

    Yep.

    At this point, we do not even know if the young female was present at the scene.

    CalFed (b3d50b)

  93. Guess the Government is starting to tell their side of the story…

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon-siege-traffic-stop/index.html

    CalFed (b3d50b)

  94. CalFed, the woman in the audio linked above was in the back seat of the car carrying Finicum and the Bundy brother who was wounded. Or so she says. It is a first person account, if it’s not totally fabricated.

    The authorities are strangely silent. After what they did to the Hammonds, I have very little confidence that the truth will emerge any time soon.

    The old range wars tale, the cowboys versus the farmers, is probably a pretty good frame in which to place this entire fiasco.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  95. According to CalFed’s link, there’s video of the shooting.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. CalFed, the woman in the audio linked above was in the back seat of the car carrying Finicum and the Bundy brother who was wounded. Or so she says. It is a first person account, if it’s not totally fabricated.
    BobStewartatHome — 1/28/2016 @ 5:25 pm

    That is the key..”so she says“. She claims that the authorities riddled Finicum’s truck with hundreds of rounds. That will be impossible to cover up. There is also apparently Government video of the stop. At this point, she is just a voice on a telephone, posted on a Youtube video.

    I don’t know…the story plays into our prejudices too perfectly. It reminds me of the the story that Dorian Johnson told or “Jackie”, from UVA. I’m suspicious and am waiting to see what the Government has to say for itself.

    CalFed (b3d50b)

  97. FBI video released. Now we know…little Miss “shot on his knees with his hands up” is a liar…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  98. It is clear someone came out with his hands up. Did he reach for a gun, causing him to be shot? What weapon was recovered???

    There is one period where it appears multiple gun shots are fired at the vehicle (but not ‘100’s’).

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  99. The CNN story says:
    That’s when, authorities say, Finicum reached down toward his waistband where he had a gun.
    The SWAT team opened fire.

    OK, where is exhibit A, the gun? Maybe there was a gun and for some reason no one thinks it is important to give that info, but that doesn’t seem to make sense.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  100. It is clear someone came out with his hands up. Did he reach for a gun, causing him to be shot? What weapon was recovered???
    MD in Philly

    He came out of the vehicle with his hands out away from his body and then dropped them and went for his pocket or waistband. It looked like he was going for a gun. The news reports say he had a 9mm in his pocket. I’m sure they will produce the gun.

    The shooter was an Oregon State Trooper, so I guess even the LA Times is right occasionally…just like a broken clock.

    I saw what looked like “flash bangs” going off over the truck and also what looked like shots into the truck…but it may have been less than lethal rounds designed to motivate the guys in the vehicle to get out.

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  101. The video answers some questions, but not all, nor is it not “unedited”. Between 11:38 and 11:42, four troopers disappear from the “unedited” video in the area behind the vehicle, and the camera view zooms out from 50 m to about 200 m.

    That said, it appears that Mr. Tinicum did reach into his coat as he was “surrendering” at 9:30, and by 9:40 he was shot from the front and the back by troopers, and he’d fallen to the snow. So he got his wish, no concrete cells.

    The video does not contradict the audio tape. Everything she said is consistent with what is seen, assuming that she did not see Tinicum reach into his coat, which is plausible as she was most likely looking to her right at the troopers. Tinicum would have been in her 7 o-clock when he made his fatal move. Also, it appears the troopers used flash bang grenades and shot bullets into the vehicle after they’d killed Tinicum (see my remarks at 10:01, 10:25 and 10:47.)

    I am reminded of Eastwood’s “Gran Torino“.

    My viewing notes follow:

    The initial portion of the video is of the vehicle at the first stop. I could not see what was happening, so I can’t comment on whether bullets were fired as the front seat passengers had their hands out the windows. But the car did drive off. It came to a road block about 9 minutes later and swerved to the left into the snow bank. The shooting occurs about 20 seconds later.

    vehicle in snow bank with driver door open at 9:21
    Driver exits vehicle in snow bank with hands up at 9:23
    Driver appears to reach into his coat, 9:30
    Driver is shot from woods and from road by police 9:35
    Trooper in forest moves to better cover with other troopers, driver down and unmoving, 9:40
    Camera focused on car in snow bank, flashes observed, perhaps flash bang grenades? 10:01
    Helicopter moves from aft of vehicle in snow bank to starboard side view
    Windows of vehicle appear to be rolled up
    Bullets can be seen hitting vehicle in front passenger side window, no evidence of any activity in vehicle, 10:25
    Helicopter (drone?) moves from abeam of vehicle to forward quarter, say 2 o-clock position relative to vehicle
    Bullets can be seen hitting the vehicle in the area between the front and rear doors near the roof, 10:47
    Troopers can be seen moving to surround vehicle, no apparent concern about threat from vehicle, 11:23
    Four troopers can be seen facing the rear of vehicle, about 10 m behind vehicle.
    Helicopter continues to circle the vehicle until it reaches 11 o-clock high, troopers still evident.
    View appears to be about 50 m distant, Tinicum’s body visible. 11:38
    film is edited (again). view is now from the 11 o-clock high position, driver door is closed, and view is from 100 m distant. 11:41
    No Troopers can be seen behind vehicle, this is apparently another video source, or perhaps the same one a minute or two after it moved away from the vehicle. Nevertheless, the film has been edited, Tinicum’s body can be seen from close up view at 12:55
    Camera platform (helicopter, whatever) has now circled to the 6 o-clock position of the vehicle, troopers still sheltered behind their patrol cars.
    Driver door opens, Tinicum’s body visible at 8 o-clock relative to vehicle 14:49
    Passenger exits vehicle from driver door, hand up 15:16
    Passenger walks around vehicle and assumes position (hands up) between police cars, 15:42
    Passenger pushed around and driven to ground 16:00
    2nd Passenger emerges from rear door, hand up 16:07
    View obstructed by trees, but passenger appears to be walking around vehicle to rear, 16:30
    2nd passenger strugles to climb over snow bank, hands up, 16.43
    2nd passenger treated more gently but put on ground, 17:15
    3rd Passenger emerges from vehicle, hands up, 17:23
    Camera platform continues to circle vehicle, now at 4 o-clock high position.
    3rd passenger now manacled, camera at 1 o-clock high position, Tinicum’s body visible at 7 o-clock relative to vehicle 18:52
    Troopers (6) surround Tinicum’s body, one may attempt 1st aid, 23:00

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  102. Suicide by cop?

    nk (dbc370)

  103. Thanks Bob for going through the effort.
    It looked to me as if the second person out, (1st p Tinicum)dropped something to the ground. Did others see that?

    MD in Philly (not in Philly) (deca84)

  104. Yes MD. Possible gun drop but impossible to determine from video.

    Bill M (906260)

  105. The F.B.I. has always been a shoot first ask questions later gang. Shoot to kill, I guess I should feel lucky for being set up and handcuffed by these ingrates. Obstructing justice was a flat 5 back in the day, now they just shoot you. Effing feds need to die.

    mg (31009b)

  106. they’re terrible people

    what happened to make them like that nobody knows

    happyfeet (831175)

  107. Not suicide by cop, murder by cop. That was an ambush, although it didn’t go according to plan.

    The two LEO vehicles could have boxed him in at the first stop; per most LEO SOP, they should have; they didn’t.

    They set up a chase…right into a three heavy vehicle (large pickups, not cruisers) blockade, set up on a blind curve in the woods. Note no flashing lights. Note how long LaVoy’s brake lights are on….he can’t stop in time. Look at all the momentum the vehicle had that plowed so far through the snow bank. LaVoy did not intend to plow into the police blockade (he braked and pulled off into the snowbank to avoid it) but he was no where near able to stop in time. That was a setup intended to be a ‘militia killed in accident at end of high speed chase’ headline.

    The protesters message was originally perceived as a little silly by the locals, but the heavy handed response was starting to piss off the locals, and the protesters message and methods were starting to get local traction. They were on their way to a community meeting (not occupying anything at the moment). The police strongly objected to the ‘community outreach’ and warned the protesters against doing it. On the way to a community meeting, the far and away most effective communicator, clearly being tracked by authorities, narrowly avoids a serious car crash, and gets dead anyway.

    LaVoy was killed because he attempted to exercise his first amendment right to peaceably assemble to petition for a redress of grievances. It is not a coincidence that police forced this lethal encounter on the way to what would have been a well attended community meeting.

    noway (1d17f0)

  108. It seems clear that Finicum jumped out of the vehicle, almost before it had come to a complete stop, intent on continuing flight.

    He first moves away from the road block, angling towards the woods. Then he sees the officer in the woods and starts to move away from him. He sees the officers moving from behind the cover of the road block to cut him off. At that point, he realizes that he is caught and his hands move for the gun in his coat pocket.

    I do not believe any of his actions are consistent with surrender, at any point in the video.

    The “bullets” at 10:21-ish and 10:47-ish were described as less-lethal OC projectiles–“pepperballs”

    I do think it is likely that the passengers in Finicum’s car were unable to see the shooting and therefore didn’t see him lower his hands and reach for his pocket.

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  109. CalFed, agreed that Tinicum exited the car very quickly, assuming the video is continuous. As can be seen, the camera was pointed elsewhere as the zoom feature (?) was activated, or as a section was edited out. By the time the vehicle is back in view, Tinicum is out of the car and his hands are up. Further the front, driver-side door is closed. The officer who charged the car as it swerved left into the snow bank can be seen a few feet behind the car prone on the snow bank. This seems likely to have taken longer, (the vehicle moving past the trooper who was last seen at the front of the car, Tinicum opening the driver door, exiting, closing the door, raising both hands,) than the brief time the camera wasn’t pointed at the scene. Which is why I believe it was edited. (My post above used a triple negative, nor not unedited, which logically conveys the opposite belief, nor edited, but it sounded right at the time. Where’s the moderator when you need an editor?)

    Regarding your theory that he was trying to escape into the woods, I’m not sure I would raise my hands if I was trying to run, especially in a snow bank over unknown terrain. And Tinicum’s foot prints are visible later in the video, and I see them as paralleling the car headed towards the back of the car, not directed towards the woods. So I don’t see him as trying to escape as you suggest.

    It would be nice to hear some audio if the troopers took any. A commenter on a different blog stated that Tinicum was left handed, which would bring to question what he was reaching for with his right hand. These will be points to consider as additional information comes out.

    I also noticed that the flash-bangs were used when one of the occupants in the car attempted to open the driver door. The door was quickly closed.

    And as was mentioned above, the 1st passenger did drop something from his raised hands as he walked from the vehicle, following the same line that Tinicum took when he exited the car.

    If you intend to protest the Federal government, you need more powerful patrons than a generalized belief in the Constitution. This was a hell of a ride to a community meeting.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  110. It’s consistent with one reported account of the young girl in the car:
    “He’s like, either shoot me now or leave us alone,” Sharp said Finicum told the officers.

    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/update-new-details-emerge-about-lavoy-finicums-death-hes-like-just-shoot-me-and-they-did/

    They didn’t, so he made like he was reaching for a gun?

    nk (dbc370)

  111. Notice the difference between the 2 stops. Initially Finicum stops the truck and waits for the officers to approach – he waits and waits and waits. No police officers approach, it goes on and on.

    Finally Finicum takes off (goaded into running?) sees the roadblock (complete with riflemen already hidden off to the side in the woods) tries to go around it and gets stuck in the snow. What’s so different this time is that according to the (edited) film) Finicum jumps out of the truck moves about 10-15 feet away and puts his hands in the air. As one officer approaches him from his front, another officer comes out of the wood behind Finicum (like in a planned bushwhack) and is in perfect position to shoot Finicum in the back if the first officer can goad him into reaching for a gun to protect himself.

    It’s a textbook assassination, a real professional job, complete with a convenient Zapruder film to shut down any pain-in-the-ass naysayers. The only element missing is the identity of the inside man.

    ropelight (0d90d4)

  112. nk, I had the same thought, “made like he was reaching for a gun.” But as I watch this particular portion of the video over and over, it appears that Tinicum is behaving as though he is bewildered. Could he have been shot (maybe with a “pepperball”) while he was walking with his hands up? Or could he have been shot several times shortly thereafter in places that wouldn’t bring him down immediately? And once he is face down in the snow, with his head down slope, you can see his left arm moving. I wonder how many time he was shot in this position before the arm stilled? Before he falls, he is in a crouched position, but moving aimlessly, seeming to cast right and left as if to find his tormenter. This is what makes me wonder about the whole thing. It is also curious that the troopers were initially in a position where they were basically firing at each other, with Tinicum in the middle. The down slope officer moves to his left out of the firing line of the trooper in the woods, and then both have clear fields of fire (assuming the vehicle was an acceptable backstop for stray rounds.) Audio, and a count and placement of the troopers shots would clarify some of these questions.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  113. ropelight, the female witness in the back seat of the car said in the audio link at #28 that bullets were fired into the front seat of the car at the first stop, and that is what prompted them to flee. I can’t verify this with the video, but the rest of her story is consistent with what is shown on the video.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  114. Thanks Bob, it makes sense. If I was investigating I’d take a close look at who was behind scheduling the meeting. It’s similar to changing the motorcade route in Dallas to bring Kennedy into the kill zone in Dealey Plaza.

    ropelight (0d90d4)

  115. Was there a car full of people but no cell phones that took video with sound??
    I bet there is more video somewhere.

    MD in Philly (at the moment not in Philly) (deca84)

  116. Looking at the video again (at post #99) while the the pickup truck (with a camper, not an SUV as I previously thought) is stopped the first time, you can see some sort of flash of light at 8:13, just before the truck drives off. There were several other flashes like this prior to the departure of the truck, but whether they were artifacts of the video system, or changes in the lights of the patrol cars, or indications of gunfire, I can’t say.

    The vehicles and the uniforms of the patrolmen appear to be different than those of the group at the roadblock. Perhaps these were deputy sheriffs and not highway patrolmen?

    At 2:05 to 2:13 you can see (first) hands sticking out the front window on the passenger side, and then (as they pull in) hands sticking out the drivers side. Which is consistent with the audio. Although she said both driver and passenger had hands out at the same time. These actions, because of their simultaneous nature, appear to be in response to the commands of the patrolmen who stopped the truck.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  117. Bob, as you agree, Finicum was out of the truck in flash, clearly not at the command of law enforcement. His hands are “out” away from his body, not “up”…(not to quibble, but that makes more sense if you are trying to move through knee deep snow). The door is closed, but it looks like the truck came to rest in a slanted position and that it closed from its own weight.

    Finicum is clearly moving directly away from the road block at first, and then adjusts his line of departure to angle away from the officer in the woods , but is still moving away from the roadblock. As the trooper approached from the road block he stops and begins fumbling with his coat.

    I know that some claim that Finicum was left-handed…I don’t know. A 9mm was found in a pocket on his left side. If Finicum was left handed, it is possible that he was attempting to grasp his coat and steady it, so that he could draw the pistol with his left hand. If he is right handed, it is possible that he had the pistol “cross draw” style on his left side.

    I doubt that the Agent “charged the car”. It looks like he thought that Finicum was going to strike that truck that he was behind and was scrambling to get out of the way. He then is seen diving out of the way, undoubtedly landing prone next to the road…wouldn’t have taken more than a second or two.

    Others have suggested that Finicum was somehow baited into fleeing from the first stop because the Officers waited so long to approach his truck. Several things militate against this view.

    NO Officer would approach a vehicle containing multiple armed suspects who had made statements indicating an intent not to be arrested, absent some indication that the subjects were no longer able to exit the vehicle on their own. Wouldn’t happen. We have no audio to confirm this, but standard procedure would be to call each subject out of the vehicle, individually, from a position of cover and search and secure each subject before calling the next one out. That is, in fact, what happened at the second stop after Finicum was shot.

    Ryan Payne exited Finicum’s truck at the scene of the first stop and was taken into custody, before Finicum fled. Although his exit was not caught on the video (the camera was fixed on the second car, a maroon Jeep, at the time), at about the 3:57 mark, you can see him standing with his arms out, being searched and taken into custody in the lower right corner of the video. This would confirm that subjects were being called out of Finicum’s truck and that at least one, Ryan Payne, complied.

    Payne was safely taken into custody at the first stop and there is no reason to believe all of the occupants wouldn’t have been had they complied. In deed, the only one who was not taken into custody safely was Finicum, who clearly did not comply and appears in the video to go for his gun.

    The FBI has stated that during the period after Payne was taken into custody, Finicum and the other occupants failed to respond to numerous commands to exit the vehicle. That seems more reasonable, given the circumstances, than to believe that they simply waited for him to bolt.

    Apparently a tack strip was deployed just short of the road block. I’ve strained mightily to see it in the video, but cannot. Finicum apparently avoided it. I did note that he moves completely into the opposing lane before approaching the road block. It is possible that he did this to avoid the tack strip.

    I see Finicum’s footprints in the snow on the video. They do not appear to me to parallel the truck. They clearly angle away from the truck and the road block.

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  118. There have been over 1,116,000 views of this video as of my last viewing. This is about 300,000 more than when I first looked at it yesterday. That works out to about five hundred new views a minute. So this protest will garner some attention after all.

    I hope the fellows who are still at the refuge decide they’ve accomplished about as much as they could have expected, and call it a day. Defiance will result in more deaths. One life is surely enough to illustrate the extent to which the authorities are willing to kill citizens who happen to be protesting unpopular (meaning without Democrat patronage) causes.

    This is quite a contrast to the response of the authorities to other protests. Think of all the sanctuary cities where they refuse to enforce Federal law. But in good old Burns, Oregon, the locals can’t do enough to help the Feds. In Seattle, the mass protests are often lead by politicians holding office either in the County or the City. The coincidental shut down of the city is thus fully authorized. No need to shoot anyone. But those with business in Seattle are best advised to stay away.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  119. I doubt that he was left handed…unless this picture is reversed. It shows him with a shoulder rig, clearly set up for a right-handed person…

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  120. Calfed, I can see your point about the tracks, but I suspect the footing was more secure upslope, and the route didn’t diverge that much from the direction of the truck. It’s the route I would choose depending on the lay of the land (the slope of the embankment.) If you watch the passengers exit the vehicle later, they had difficulties walking close to the truck because of the build up of snow where the truck had pushed it aside. I also think Finicum knew there was a trooper above him in the forest. He seemed to be responding to him as he walked to the back of the truck.

    Your explanation for the behavior of the trooper who ran toward Finicum’s truck just as the video changed (either by editing or zooming or something) is sensible. He had no way of knowing whether the blockading truck would be plowed into by Finicum’s truck, and thus pushed on to him. My theory was based on the idea that he was going to shoot the driver if it looked like the truck was going to break through and regain the road. I like your theory better.

    I remain puzzled by Finicum’s behavior after he was shot, the apparent bewilderment especially, but this is between him and God at this point. More significantly, it’s not clear when the first shot was fired and when Finicum was first struck.

    All in all, it is a very sad story. I repeat again, I hope the fellows at the refuge leave quietly and soon. Finicum was not a criminal in the sense that he wanted to hurt others. And the same is true for all of them. It’s regrettable that our “management” of western lands has been so intrusive, inept, and tyrannical.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  121. Ryan Payne exited Finicum’s truck at the scene of the first stop and was taken into custody, before Finicum fled.

    There’s the inside man.

    ropelight (0d90d4)

  122. All in all, it is a very sad story. I repeat again, I hope the fellows at the refuge leave quietly and soon. Finicum was not a criminal in the sense that he wanted to hurt others. And the same is true for all of them. It’s regrettable that our “management” of western lands has been so intrusive, inept, and tyrannical.

    Bob, I agree with every sentiment that you expressed here.

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  123. There’s the inside man.

    Maybe. Or maybe he was just the most sensible of the bunch.

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  124. Oregon live has a slowed down, enlarged copy of the video.

    Calfed (b3d50b)

  125. Sure, Calfed, it’s a possibility, Ryan Payne could be Joe Citizen who found himself in a tight spot and took the first opportunity to get out of harm’s way. Or, he could be the inside man and the extended delay at the first stop was designed to get him clear of the turkey shoot set-up waiting down the road.

    Nice and tidy, it’s called plausible deniability.

    This ain’t my first assassination, I’ve seen enough professional hits to know the drill. This one is textbook. Don’t be naive, or give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I say Payne is in this thing up to his chinny chin chin.

    Remember, you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

    ropelight (0d90d4)

  126. ropelight,

    You’ve seen “enough” professional hits?
    …or just some Quentin Tarantino movies?

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  127. Pure Speculation with a little dash intuition:

    Consider this: Once Finicum was out of the truck with this hands up the officer approached from the roadblock and yelled for Finicum to answer his cell phone. When Finicum did as he was told, the camera caught him “going for his gun.”

    ropelight (da3a94)

  128. Informants are the FBI’s currency.And 99% of the time they are criminals and accomplices.

    nk (9faaca)

  129. Ignore my comment #131:

    Pure Speculation with a little dash intuition:

    Consider this: Once Finicum was out of the truck with this hands up the officer approached from the roadblock and yelled for Finicum to answer his cell phone. When Finicum did as he was told, the camera caught him “going for his gun.”

    ropelight (da3a94) — 1/30/2016 @ 5:33 am

    It wasn’t a cell phone Finicum was reaching for, his hands were away from his body and and out to his sides when he was shot in the lower left side. Following the bullet’s impact he reached, not for a gun or for a cell phone, but for the entry site. Robert “LaVoy” Finicum was murdered in cold blood. Tape from the helicopter shows the sequence of events.

    First shot: As the lead officer from the roadblock prominently moves to confront Finicum a second officer located at the front of the left oblique roadblock vehicle shoots Finicum in the lower left side. Finicum reaches for his wound and points out the shooter as that dirty coward turns and scurries away bent over to conceal himself among others at the roadblock.

    Second Shot: The prominent lead officer now shoots the already wounded but still standing Finicum a second time. Finicum turns away from the second assassin as the third officer emerging from the woods behind Finicum closes in.

    Third Shot: As Finicum turns away from the second shooter to look at the approaching third officer that cold blooded villain calmly and deliberately shoots Finicum dead at point blank range.

    Several videos show the sequence – see for yourself.

    ropelight (da3a94)

  130. CalFed, here’s one example of a Seattle protest that “occupied” a Federal Building.

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Immigration-protesters-occupy-building-block-883478.php

    Note that a King County Councilman lead the charge into the building.

    There have been others. One case I’m trying to find a reference for occurred in the 1980(?) when protesters took over the 3rd floor of what is now called the Jackson Building.

    This is business as usual in Democratically controlled, sanctuary, cities. Mob rule. But the mob is whipped up to do the Democrat’s bidding. It’s all harmless fun right?

    BobStewartatHome (f23946)

  131. a new life awaits you in the off-whirl colonies

    happyfeet (831175)

  132. That isn’t Patterico. Someone is commenting under our hosts name.

    JD (34f761)

  133. tricker

    happyfeet (831175)


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