Patterico's Pontifications

11/22/2015

Trump: I Won’t Rule Out an Independent Run Even Though I Already Did

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:55 am



Donald Trump won’t rule out an independent run.

Of course, he already did rule out an independent run.

But of course he is a gigantic liar whose word is worthless, so nobody believed him which makes the lying OK.

Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump would not rule out making a run for president as an Independent despite signing a pledge in September saying he would support the eventual GOP nominee instead of running a third-party bid.

“I’m going to have to see what happens. I will see what happens. I have to be treated fairly,” Trump said Sunday on ABC’s “This Week” when asked about a new guerrilla effort by operatives within the Republican Party to derail Trump’s candidacy. “When I did this, I said I have to be treated fairly. If I’m treated fairly, I’m fine. All I want to do is [have] a level playing field.”

Verdict: this is a scandal manufactured by the media and selective editing and how DARE you make something of it?! Trump supporters will of course be unfazed — just as they would be unfazed if Trump announced that he was going to sacrifice the first-born of every household to The Great God Clarence. Just as they would be unfazed if Trump knocked at their door and took a drunken swing at them for not buying local. “I deserved that,” Trump supporters would say, rubbing their sore jaw. “Honey, go get our firstborn.”

UPDATE: Here’s Trump, saying about a Black Lives Matter protestor who was apparently punched while trying to disrupt Trump’s speech, “maybe he should have been roughed up.” While I support using force if necessary to remove a disruption, I see that as different from saying a protestor “maybe should have been roughed up” — which strikes me as a leftist response (“I don’t like that guy’s views! Let’s get him!”) But never mind that. What I find more interesting about the clip is that Trump’s knock on Hillary is not that she is dishonest or power-hungry but that she lacks “stamina.” Is that the issue? She would be great if only she had more stamina?

UPDATE x2:

UPDATE x3: The good thing about Trump’s circus of a candidacy is that it allows Ted Cruz to portray himself as the sane, electable guy.

220 Responses to “Trump: I Won’t Rule Out an Independent Run Even Though I Already Did”

  1. UPDATE: Here’s Trump, saying about a Black Lives Matter protestor who was apparently punched while trying to disrupt Trump’s speech, “maybe he should have been roughed up.” While I support using force if necessary to remove a disruption, I see that as different from saying a protestor “maybe should have been roughed up” — which strikes me as a leftist response (“I don’t like that guy’s views! Let’s get him!”) But never mind that. What I find more interesting about the clip is that Trump’s knock on Hillary is not that she is dishonest or power-hungry but that she lacks “stamina.” Is that the issue? She would be great if only she had more stamina?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  2. Trump lies like a Democrat… which isn’t surprising given his lifelong history of liberalism.

    tops116 (d094f8)

  3. UPDATE x3: The good thing about Trump’s circus of a candidacy is that it allows Ted Cruz to portray himself as the sane, electable guy.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  4. I guess I forgot to put UPDATE x2 in the comments, but it’s right there. You can see it.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  5. I think he’s perfectly justified in saying this. If the GOPe colludes in bankrolling an attack against him alone among the candidates just because he appears to be winning, screw their deal and them.

    rrpjr (b5da43)

  6. She would be great if only she had more stamina?

    This thought forced by a candidate who was complaining about a 3-hour debate.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  7. Well that rick wilson/Liz mair effort forgot the first rule of fight club, and that is to what he was referring.

    narciso (a1aef7)

  8. I don’t support Trump. I suspect he would be a terrible President, even vastly better than Obama or Hillary. I don’t trust him, but then again, I don’t trust the VicyGOP either.

    If the VichyGOP continues to try and destroy Trump while demanding he abide by rules they clearly have no intention of keeping, Trump would be an idiot to play their game by their rules.

    Rove, et al. will do anything they can to retain control of the VichyGOP and that includes dirty tricks just like the Democrats pull on every GOP nominee.

    If Trump is the eventual nominee, I might well support the Constitution Party again this year. But that will be party because of Trump and partly because of the duplicity of the VichyGOP.

    WarEagle82 (44dbd0)

  9. Buy stock in popcorn, republicans are going to snap.

    mg (31009b)

  10. By the way, I watched this last night. Long at 3.5 hours, but refreshingly enough not a Trump in sight. No Christie either. Nothing to suck all the oxygen from the room.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_CnVvNy8U0

    To get to the actual sit-down, you can skip about the first 15 minutes if you like. There are a few protesters at the beginning, but they do get dealt with.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  11. Verdict: this is a scandal manufactured by the media and selective editing and how DARE you make something of it?!

    That was the case with the issue of Trump wanting all Muslims to be registered, so I’m not sure if you’re merely stating a fact or being sarcastic. If the latter, that’s a silly reaction in light of the media having a long track record of trying to torpedo even squishy Republicans like Trump, who probably at least is a “good man,” as much as, if not more so, than the crud now in the White House.

    Mark (f713e4)

  12. After eight miserable and disgusting years of having to endure President Narcissist I do not want to live with another four to eight years enduring another narcissist named Donald Trump as president. This country’s worship of celebrity crap is tiresome.

    Susan (7a27cb)

  13. This country’s worship of celebrity crap is tiresome.

    Made much worse because virtually all such people have to also qualify for the Liberal Seal of Approval — as screened by the media and intelligentsia — with rare exceptions, such as Bruce “Caitlyn” Jenner, albeit an oddball Republican who presumably is socially/culturally very permissive towards, if not a member of, the left.

    Mark (f713e4)

  14. sounds like Mr. Trump would only do an independent run if Team R really just flat out begged him to

    happyfeet (831175)

  15. Thank you for that video link, Bill H.

    DRJ (15874d)

  16. Trump’s not above renegotiating bad deals. It’s a major campaign plank, actually, with Iran.

    Now, not saying the GOP is Iran, but then they do seem to lie to their base a lot, do they not? And their base is supporting Trump, right?

    So, if they’re going to try to sabotage Trump from becoming the frontrunner after extracting a deal from him to not run independent if he’s treated fairly, and he did talk a lot at the time about the need to be treated fairly, then it’s hardly surprising now that he’s saying this. He’s putting him on notice to back the heck off and let the candidates themselves fight it out. In which, naturally, he is winning.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  17. I’m guessing “The Pattern Repeats” doesn’t have a firstborn to give up. No wonder he’s unfazed!

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  18. after extracting a deal from him to not run independent if he’s treated fairly

    Holy revisionist history, Batman!

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  19. Cruz is always saying that we need to fight, fight, fight the Democrats but he does not take on Trump.

    What is Cruz’s plan–to sit back and watch Carson win Iowa, and to watch Trump win New Hampshire?

    We’ve reached the point where almost everyone else has taken on Trump–but Cruz. Cruz doesn’t want it badly enough, he’s unwilling to fight for it.

    DRG (76b104)

  20. Not saying Trump is Iran but he does seem to lie to his base a lot, does he not?

    Trump is a lying, narcissistic, Leftist Democrat in the Republican Primary. And the Trumpsters are chasing after a celebrity idol.

    John Hitchcock (bc62e8)

  21. Gee… another 4 to 8 years of this liberal dogsh*t. Is that what the people who yearn for the destruction of the Republican Party really want?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  22. If Trump is the nominee, a Democrat wins.
    If Trump runs 3rd Party, a Democrat wins.
    I have a feeling, we’re going to have 4 more years of a Democrat President, and then we can write off the USA as a total loss. Take it to the junkyard, it won’t drive the highways again.

    John Hitchcock (bc62e8)

  23. What the hell kind of loyalty do the Republicans owe to Hillary’s friend and supporter–the guy that sat back and declared Mitt Romney’s comment about self deportation to be too harsh?

    The Republicans have a duty to defeat Hillary at all costs because after Obama’s two terms, –Hillary would transform America into something Reagan would never recognize.

    DRG (76b104)

  24. Cruz is the only republican worth voting for.
    The rest of them will end up mirroring bill’s wife if elected. It’s what republicans do when they win elections. They lie and mislead the voters. I know who I think is ill informed.

    mg (31009b)

  25. Mark is not a good man.

    JD (3b5483)

  26. Trumps fans are Democrats or people that have sat out the elections for awhile now because the radio stars give them excuses not to participate. Negative ads work by suppressing turn out a lot of the time. A lot of the anger they express is fundamentally anger at themselves because they thought Obama was going to be a savior for the blue collar middle class–they fell for his schtick–and now they are angry. They also wanted Obamacare and now that it is falling apart the blame everyone who bothered to vote. They abuse the only people that bother to listen to them because they are no longer represented by the Democrats. Like Trump they are angry Democrats who were fooled by Obama.

    DRG (76b104)

  27. Trump is a lying, narcissistic, Leftist Democrat in the Republican Primary. And the Trumpsters are chasing after a celebrity idol.

    **********

    That about nails it.

    DRG (76b104)

  28. According to the ABC/Washington Post poll, Trump has extended his lead.

    DN (84d11d)

  29. Thank you for that video link, Bill H.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2015 @ 11:29 am

    You’re welcome. Faith is central to the discussion, which is somewhat different for me (I’m atheist) but the discussion was informative and civil. I could watch one like that again, with the same crew putting it on.

    The only thing I thought it missing was, where the moderator tells the candidates to treat this as a family around the Thanksgiving table, someone needed to sing out “Dibs on a turkey leg!!”

    Bill H (2a858c)

  30. Cruz is always saying that we need to fight, fight, fight the Democrats but he does not take on Trump.

    What is Cruz’s plan–to sit back and watch Carson win Iowa, and to watch Trump win New Hampshire?

    We’ve reached the point where almost everyone else has taken on Trump–but Cruz. Cruz doesn’t want it badly enough, he’s unwilling to fight for it.

    DRG (76b104) — 11/22/2015 @ 12:21 pm

    I think he’s waiting to see if Trump implodes. Why look like a dick if you don’t have to?

    Bill H (2a858c)

  31. “According to the ABC/Washington Post poll, Trump has extended his lead.”

    I’m pretty shocked, but not really, that political scientists have completely made wrong predictions around Trump.

    To start with, they seem to only think of American electoral politics as their context and have no broader understanding of history or other electoral campaigns one. So they’re totally the right people to go to if you want to tweak demographic support on a county by county basis, but utterly incapable of understanding broad historical leadership movements. They would have done well to have understood how Caesar gained support from his army and populace, or Napoleon, or the one who shouldn’t be mentioned, etc., or even Putin.

    I’m not saying that these people were “good” as we understand the term, but they gained followings and power without hyperfocusing on hairsplitting pandering to every niche.

    But more to the point, what Trump has been doing since the beginning is beyond simple: ratcheting. As in he says something controversial and shocking, doesn’t back down, gets support, sets up a media vs. him narrative, wins more of the base over with it, but here’s the main thing—each time inoculating himself from being taken out for being non-PC. So next time he goes a bit further. Then, he goes a bit further.

    Seriously, he’s done this substantively like 15 times now. He’s a smart guy. This is on purpose.

    No, not every turn of phrase or story written about him was hyperplanned in advance, but this is his broad, and very effective, strategy … not just to win the nomination and election, but to gain a strong mandate to govern and, dare I say it, save western civilization.

    Read Donald Trump’s book on Thinking Big and Kicking Ass. He’s not running to be a Bob Dole or even Nixonian style manager. He’s running as a historical figure to turn around the course of western society.

    And herein lies his appeal.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  32. *won

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  33. “If Trump is the nominee, a Democrat wins.”

    Perhaps, but the currently available evidence indicates the opposite. Meanwhile, Trump’s support is growing.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  34. Pattern:
    Too many Conservatives, Patterico and myself included, have gone on record as saying “We will not ever vote for Trump” for him to have a realistic shot at becoming President.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  35. And, Pattern:
    Trump IS a Democrat. A Democrat who will not win the Presidency.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  36. He’s running as a historical figure to turn around the course of western society.

    If there were such a person, which I seriously doubt, it certainly is not Donald Trump. Frankly, with the depth political correctness has buried into the culture I don’t think we’re savable.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  37. Too many Conservatives, Patterico and myself included, have gone on record as saying “We will not ever vote for Trump” for him to have a realistic shot at becoming President.

    Well, sure, except for the polls showing he already beats Clinton in head to head matchups, with you etc., factored in.

    You own your vote. But you don’t own the votes of anyone else, and you know … Trump’s going to get a lot of those, and bring people to the polls who haven’t voted in years. Plus, the intercivilizational war plays into Trump’s perceived strengths. So there’s that.

    Personally, I think voting for the person who wants to defend the west, Christians, etc., makes a lot of sense, but each to their own.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  38. Nice strawman you got there, Pattern. Nice pedestal you got your idol on, too.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  39. The Democrats think 1984 is a guide book, and Trump thinks he’s going to win the election strictly on the Idiocracy votes.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  40. “Nice strawman you got there, Pattern.”

    I don’t know what strawman you’re talking about. You said this: “If Trump is the nominee, a Democrat wins.” I posted this: “Perhaps, but the currently available evidence indicates the opposite,” with a link to polling data from several recent sources supporting my position.

    Of course, things could change and you may be proven right. Yet that’s speculative and there’s a more than reasonable chance that you’re wrong and Trump could win.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  41. The ABC News/Washington Post poll has a margin of error of 6% for the primary polling. That’s pretty gross, but then on top of that they distributed the sample so that it was 33% Democrat, 23% Republican, and 36% Independent–with the Independents declaring their leaning at the time of polling. Then they didn’t even screen for likely voters. Again a nation wide poll does not model the state by state elections in the primary–and the way they did the modeling for this poll would only best represent –perhaps–the New Hampshire republican primary.

    DRG (76b104)

  42. But more to the point, what Trump has been doing since the beginning is beyond simple: ratcheting. As in he says something controversial and shocking, doesn’t back down, gets support, sets up a media vs. him narrative, wins more of the base over with it, but here’s the main thing—each time inoculating himself from being taken out for being non-PC. So next time he goes a bit further. Then, he goes a bit further.

    **************

    That probably won’t work for him in the general election, and trust me the media is sitting on stories in case he wins the Republican primary.

    DRG (76b104)

  43. As the star pupil (100%) in Professor Balkin’s Statistics 302 class, I declare that poll totally worthless, DRG.

    nk (dbc370)

  44. Some people have their heads so far up Trump’s butt, they can taste what he’s eating, simultaneous with him.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  45. I would pay money to see a republican un-civil war.
    lpos

    mg (31009b)

  46. I agree with Bill H.
    Cruz is running for the presidency,
    Not against other Repubs in the primaries.

    Maybe it will turn out to not work,
    But that is what I have wanted since 07
    Let the repubs make their best cases against the common foe and see who gains traction.
    If Trump doesn’t implode then the electorate has become so embittered against the Vichy that there isn’t much hope
    I think Cruz is hoping that eventually enough people will realize Trump isn’t a good candidate after all and will look to see who brings some of Trump’s energy and independence and hasn’t been an enemy.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84)

  47. How does it feel to be a roveaholic?

    mg (31009b)

  48. The good thing about Trump’s circus of a candidacy is that it has . . .

    . . . brought Republicans who had given up on the party back into the fold.

    . . . brought independents and moderate Democrats, as well as the apolitical, into the Republican fold.

    . . . demonstrated that Republican can appeal to traditionally Democratic constituencies without pandering to them.

    . . . made all moderate Republicans who, up until Trump, were insisting that the Republican candidate must blur the line between Republican and Democrat look like the dishonest fools they are.

    . . . has made immigration policy a litmus test for Republicans.

    . . . has singlehandedly made the media look like a organized gang of unprincipled idiots – to a point that even partisan leftists openly confirm the lack of media professionalism.

    . . . has crushed the GOPe candidates who are competing for the same turf (after all, Trump is just a moderate like Jeb and Walker, but with a very loud mouth).

    . . . has put a stop to conservative babbling about forming a new party.

    . . . has made it acceptable to make strong, nationalistic statements about America coupled with uncompromising statements about he need to crush Islamic terror.

    . . . has made it acceptable to openly and uncompromisingly attack the lunacy which is BLM and campus crybullying.

    . . . has provided us with months of the most entertaining political theater I can remember.

    I could go on . . .

    Today, thanks to Trump, the milquetoasts are on the run; in the future, we will be talking about American politics before and after Trump.

    ThOR (a52560)

  49. Cruz does have a reasonable path to the nomination if Trump implodes (which I don’t think he will for the strategic reason I mentioned above). If not, as a VP candidate.

    Certainly, I see Cruz as the next best choice, policy-wise.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  50. If the republicans did what they said they would do if elected, we would all be farting in silk.
    But those mf’s proved to be pathological liars.

    mg (31009b)

  51. Besides, how is Trump’s persona any more nauseating than the false and opportunistic “gentility” of Trent Lott, Mitch McConnell and all the other grifters in the Republican congressional caucus?

    With Trump, it’s what you see is what you get.

    ThOR (a52560)

  52. . . . demonstrated that Republican can appeal to traditionally Democratic constituencies without pandering to them.
    ThOR (a52560) — 11/22/2015 @ 2:53 pm

    I see no evidence of that. Is there polling data that supports that?

    Gerald A (949d7d)

  53. “I see no evidence of that. Is there polling data that supports that?”

    Yes.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  54. This is exactly why I keep harping, to everyone who’ll listen, about the spectacular significance of Trump’s repeated bankruptcies, defaults, and lawsuits.

    Trump keeps his word — for exactly as long as it suits him, and never for a moment longer. Every merchant who ever extended credit to his companies took him at his word that they’d get paid. But he brags about using the system to enrich himself at their benefit when he deliberately breaks his word.

    The Trump International Hotel in Chicago is one of his flagship properties. The lenders who financed its construction knew of Trump’s history (although he’d only dragged his companies through bankruptcy three times at that point). They insisted, as a condition of the deal, that Trump extend a personal $40M guarantee for the project. Forty million was a drop in the bucket of what they were lending to Trump’s companies; the lenders’ getting extra security for $40M of their investment was not a big factor in their decisions. Instead, what they were trying to do was to put Donald Trump, in his personal, individual capacity, on the hook for an amount of money that they calculated might be enough to deter him from breaking his companies’ contractual commitments to repay the much larger loan amount.

    But you can’t shame the shameless. Trump defaulted on both his companies’ obligations and his own personal $40M guarantee. With respect to the guarantee, the reason for his default was not because he couldn’t come up with the $40M. He (unlike his corporations that were involved in this project) could easily manage that. He defaulted because he wanted to, and because he could get away with it. And he sent his legions of lawyers into court to argue that the real estate downturn of 2008, the bursting of the bubble, was an “Act of God” that absolved him of responsibility.

    The man is a congenital, pathological liar who makes his fortune by tricking people. Why would any voter believe he’d keep his word as a politician?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  55. The Pattern Repeats,

    You are Christoph, right?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  56. Beldar- You make trump sound like a republican.
    Cruz/West

    mg (31009b)

  57. “This is exactly why I keep harping, to everyone who’ll listen, about the spectacular significance of Trump’s repeated bankruptcies, defaults, and lawsuits.”

    You mean being listed in the Guiness Book of World Records for making the biggest personal financial comeback ever?

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  58. Why would any voter believe he’d keep his word as a politician?

    we just have to hope for the best

    happyfeet (831175)

  59. they didn’t see the somelives matter shirt, until after he was on the floor.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/11/update-cnn-lied-trump-protesters-did-not-kick-black-activist-who-stormed-rally/

    narciso (732bc0)

  60. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_CnVvNy8U0

    To get to the actual sit-down, you can skip about the first 15 minutes if you like. There are a few protesters at the beginning, but they do get dealt with.
    Bill H (2a858c) — 11/22/2015 @ 10:56 am

    Yes, Thank you, very much for the link! I just finished watching it, in its entirety.

    felipe (56556d)

  61. Why would any voter believe he’d keep his word as a politician?

    I’m sorry Beldar, but at this point don’t you really mean: Why would any voter believe the word of any politician? I don’t think there’s enough time before the Rapture for Trump to lie to us half as much as Obama has. Or do you believe somehow Hillary! would be more honest and forthright?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  62. Here’s a problem with the Trump will lose for sure position, beyond the polling data showing he’s likely to win:

    Hillary. She does not inspire passionate enthusiasm. I mean, look at her last campaign. Look at this campaign. Look at her Sec State record. Even leftists realize the world situation isn’t great. Email scandal and honesty polling. OK, I realize Dems don’t care, but she’s got the charisma of a wet catfish and has brought Bill out to try and deal with that. Etc.

    She’ll get a lot of support because of the sacrament of abortion and typical leftist causes, but history’s on Trump side plus he generates enthusiasm. Could he lose? Sure. He says that every speech. Is he sure to lose?

    Get a grip.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  63. Trump is a lying, narcissistic, Leftist Democrat in the Republican Primary. And the Trumpsters are chasing after a celebrity idol.

    John Hitchcock, if you’re going to be overly imprecise in characterizing Trump, then are you a good judge of candidates in general? I’m not referring to Trump being described as, most certainly, narcissistic, because that he is in spades. As for his lack of honesty, I’m not so sure that trait in him is wobbly enough that he necessarily earns the adjective of “lying,” certainly the way Hillary or Barry does. But to define Trump as “leftist Democrat,” if accurate, therefore means Obama is ultra-ultra-ultra liberal and Hillary is ultra-ultra-liberal and Republicans like Jeb Bush are liberals.

    Mark (f713e4)

  64. I get the urge to bash Trump because he’s not my choice, but I agree with ThOR that he’s brought some good things to the primaries. The conversation would be amnesty and the importance of electing the first woman President (as long as it’s Hillary), but instead it’s about te importance of securing the border and media bias. Kudos to Trump for that.

    But what interests me more is why Trump is leading the polls. It feels like it’s because he’s willing to say anything. How pathetic that GOP politics have gotten to the point that just saying something different is a rare commodity that earns votes.

    DRJ (15874d)

  65. Mark, Jeb is a centrist squish. Trump is far to the Left of him. And Trump is a big-time liar. I was not imprecise at all.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  66. “It feels like it’s because he’s willing to say anything.”

    No. I explained it here. The things he’s saying are in a decided direction and there is a constituency who wants to fight for western civilization in a real, non–neo-con, way. Also, without a check on immigration, the GOP is doomed to die or move ever leftward. You may consider this “saying anything” but a lot of people consider it “saying the facts”.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  67. Hey, Pattern:

    Patterico asked if you’re Christoph. How about answering that question.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  68. link

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  69. He’s saying “things you can’t say,” and he’s saying a lot of what people think. The Overton Window is moving because of world events, and domestic events with immigration … and Donald Trump is moving it along at a sharp pace.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  70. Rush Limbaugh has more along this here.

    The western world is in a desperate state. Jeb Bush, etc., is not going to make its defense—and resurgence—happen.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  71. I am going to assume, since Pattern won’t answer the question, that he is indeed Christoph.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  72. Cruz and, to a lesser extent, others, are saying this is a transformational time when we have to drop PC thinking and defend Western/Judeo-Christian values. I think Trump is tapping into that concept but he foes it in a flamboyant or inflammatory way that is sure to get attention. That’s what I mean by his willingness to say anything, including things he sometimes has to walk back.

    DRJ (15874d)

  73. What about Trudeau’s election. Isn’t that part of the repeating pattern?

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. “I think Trump is tapping into that concept ….”

    As far as (merely) “tapping in,” I know you think that, but with all due respect, I don’t think you understand the extent to which Trump has, personally, studied history nor which history he’s studied. I agree Cruz is pretty good on the issue, and I suspect this is one of the reasons why Cruz and Trump don’t attack each other much.

    It isn’t like Trump’s defense of western civilization and America just started a few months ago. He’s been writing about it and talking about it for longer.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  75. “What about Trudeau’s election. Isn’t that part of the repeating pattern?”

    His father was the worst thing to happen to Canada in terms of its demographic make-up and future viability (and the indoctrination of its youth), like Johnson was to America, so yes indeed. However, I’m referring to the pattern by which Trump is stumping political analysts and winning. Although there are other patterns, as noted in this memorable quote:

    “Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.”—Aristotle

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  76. I say tapping in because Trump acts out of what sells. Whether it’s what he believes is secondary to the art of the deal.

    DRJ (15874d)

  77. In other words, Trump believes in Thinking Big more than in principles.

    DRJ (15874d)

  78. Well, he’s selling what the world needs, in many people’s opinion, and what they want. However, at least he was smart enough to realize they want it, and not just limit himself to what the GOP, falsely, imagines is the Overton Window.

    Here’s a simple example: Trump’s take on illegal immigration by Hispanics. Crime aside, Trump realizes that the GOP dream of converting Hispanics into a large pro-American right-wing voting block because Catholicism is madness. So, he’s talking border control instead. He’s polarizing, and gaining support from some of those he polarizes. Wisely, in my opinion, since his fundamental assessment is right.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  79. Well, no. Protecting his people, however interpreted, is a principle. He’s not a Syrian Christian, but wants to stop Christians from being crucified. Wants an enclave to protect Middle Eastern peoples within Syria.

    But, prioritizes protecting Americans. There’s a principle there somewhere, and I like it.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  80. I agree he’s selling what people want. I think he would sell something else if people wanted something else, which is the opposite of principle.

    DRJ (15874d)

  81. whereas Jeb is doing the “spinal tap marketing tour,’

    narciso (732bc0)

  82. whereas Jeb is doing the “spinal tap marketing tour,’
    narciso (732bc0) — 11/22/2015 @ 5:41 pm

    He does seem to be stuck in a chrysalis of his own making.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  83. “I agree he’s selling what people want. I think he would sell something else if people wanted something else, which is the opposite of principle.”

    Well, as long as he delivers what people want—in these particular cases—I can dig it.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  84. Today, the execrable John Kasich made an important point on Meet the Press: will Trump’s polling numbers hold up on election day? Kasich says no and I’m inclined to agree.

    Question: Do any of you find Trump more unworthy of support than Kasich? Or Graham, for that matter? I’m no Trump fan, but he doesn’t come anywhere near the bottom of my list. So why the brouhaha?

    ThOR (a52560)

  85. I think that’s true, Pattern, and it works unless people get the feeling that Trump would sacrifice their wants when it would benefit him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  86. Of the candidates remaining in the Republican Primary, I refuse to ever vote for the squish Jeb or the Democrat Trump. I will enthusiastically pull for Cruz and reluctantly champion the rest.

    John Hitchcock (cf1592)

  87. Mark, Jeb is a centrist squish. Trump is far to the Left of him.

    John Hitchcock, if Trump were far to the left of Jeb, Trump would be yapping about anything but the need to secure the borders and would zip his lips about the crimes caused by illegal aliens—or the “undocumented.” As for smirking about political correctness and being open and blunt about the biased nature of the media (which only Trump and Cruz have generally done over the past few months), such a response may not be purely ideologically aligned to the right, but just about no liberal or certainly avowed leftist has reflected those same sentiments, at least in public.

    Trump is full of squish-squish (he’s a New Yorker, after all, surrounded by limousine liberals galore), but I do think his criticism of unbridled illegal immigration and the PC nonsense that is roiling the Western World are innate reactions from him, which is why — at least in those instances — I don’t think Trump is mouthing off about them purely because (as DRJ noted) he’s selling what people want to buy.

    Mark (f713e4)

  88. I wonder how Trump would react if Romney said the same thing.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  89. What is this about Jeb? Are the Trumpbots still flogging that strawman? He’s dead, Jim.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  90. ThOR–

    Graham and Kasich are the left edge of the GOP. But unlike Trump they’ve been GOP for decades.

    Trump talks to Bill Clinton, who tells him to run, and all of a sudden he’s a Republican running on the platform of “the Republican candidates are all fracked!” And “I’ll be a spoiler if they nominate someone else.”

    Do you not see why this gives us pause?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  91. I agree he’s selling what people want. I think he would sell something else if people wanted something else, which is the opposite of principle.

    And after they’ve bought what he’s selling and they find out there’s no warranty or returns? What then? The Flounder Principle*?

    ——-
    “You fu**ed up. You trusted us.”

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  92. well some good news,

    https://twitter.com/martinizar/status/668587433534033920/photo/1

    well romney gave us pause, mass care, the northeast energy compact, they shoved him down our throats, then he became a basengo,

    narciso (732bc0)

  93. although after they released the memos, they know how to counter it,

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/2015/11/23/trump-says-he-would-absolutely-bring-back-waterboarding

    narciso (732bc0)

  94. Trump changed his registration to Republican in July 1987.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  95. Kevin M,

    I do indeed. You think he’s one of them, the enemy, so to speak. To a great extent, he is.

    Do you see mine? My objection to the GOPe is that misrepresentation and betrayal are their stock in trade. To me, they are Benedict Arnolds.

    As I see it – in what I grant is an oversimplification purely intended to make a point – the crucial difference is how you and I view the enemy vis-a-vis traitors.

    The party has a big problem that revolves around this issue. How, for example, should we view the Obama-hugging Christie? Or, for that matter, the long list GOP senators who are clearly Obama-enablers? It is no secret why Cruz has focused his efforts on the House, while merely lecturing the Senate. He thinks the Senate Republican caucus is beyond the pale. And they are – my list of Benedict Arnolds in the Senate is depressingly long.

    ThOR (a52560)

  96. all of a sudden he’s [Trump’s] a Republican ~ Kevin said

    In 1987. Does all of a sudden say 28 years ago to you?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  97. 52 years ago today President John F Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas Texas. Lyndon Johnson became President and reversed Kennedy’s policy of withdrawing combat troops from Vietnam. Overwhelming public opposition to Johnson’s war nearly tore the country apart and caused Johnson to announce he would not seek a second full term. Riots in Chicago at the ’68 Democrat National Convention sickened the nation and resulted in the election of Richard Nixon.

    ropelight (1f3f9d)

  98. it had the collateral effect of shutting down the cuba program in large part, qui bono, considering oswald had ties to two DGI trainees from Minsk, the Diem assasination three weeks earlier had set the course of the future,

    narciso (732bc0)

  99. It delights me to find out that Vox and ABC news really care, deep in their hearts, about the fate and well being of the GOP.

    It always happens in the middle of an election season, when the Democrats are on the wane. They just jump up with the advise to save the GOP’s soul.

    Very heart warming.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  100. I don’t agree that Trump has brought anything good to the primaries. That’s another one of his serial exaggerations, in fact, as when he insists that “Before me, nobody was talking about immigration.”

    The issues in this campaign would not change a jot or tittle if Trump had never entered it, nor would they if he dropped out tomorrow.

    What he has done is deprive a number of genuinely worthy GOP candidates of an opportunity — during a cycle in which the Democratic nominee is now effectively uncontested — to showcase their respective merits and positions. And he’s giving that nominee, on a daily basis, material that she will use to good advantage among uncommitted or undecided voters.

    He’s done this out of ego, and it’s no more useful than any other exercise in extreme egotism, and it’s more destructive than most.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  101. as long as Trump offends the usual suspects, GOPe & otherwise, i’ll support him.

    if he follows through on even a fraction of his illegal alien positions, i’m light years ahead of any mainstream candidate from either party.

    f them.

    redc1c4 (51aab8)

  102. About Trumps take on Hillary. Everybody knows she is a liar. Everybody, including her main constituents, bat sht crzy women. For the girls I think it’s down to why she did it, rather than the actual event.
    She set up a home server because she doesn’t trust Obama.
    She went along with the BenGahzi fable, because she didn’t want a multi generational war/occupation of Libya.

    Those are two things that most of her constituents can forgive.

    So Donald Trump goes with something that is kind of obvious, but not so much in the public eye.
    That Hillary is a wreck physically.

    “I don’t feel no ways tired.”
    It’s one of those lies, if you have to say it, then…

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  103. It’s true that the Republicans were talking about immigration just a couple of weeks before Cruz became the first GOP candidate to announce he was running for President. The consensus opinion was that Republicans could never win on immigration so they should give up. A month later, the GOP’s biggest amnesty proponents — Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio — were leading the Republican polls.

    If Trump had nothing to do with the change in polling, perspective and rhetoric, then who brought about this change?

    DRJ (15874d)

  104. I should clarify that it was Republican leaders who wanted to give up on immigration. Not the people, obviously.

    DRJ (15874d)

  105. What Beldar said. Trump will say anything at the moment and any previous statement to the contrary will no longer be “operative”. (A swig of Geritol to anybody who knows the “operative” reference without Googling.) I pray that we never find out, but if he is elected there will be no “dang fence”, and no deportations of illegals, and not even Arpege (boy, I feel old). I dang guarantee it.

    And that’s what’s wrongest about going back on his pledge not to run as an independent. A real man would have told the GOPolitburo slatemakers to go pound sand in the first place. They were overstepping. But Trump is not a real man — he’s a badger-headed, orange-skinnned, bimbo-chasing, chicken-stealing, egg-sucking weasel.

    nk (dbc370)

  106. We run that risk with virtually all politicians, don’t we, nk? The reason I like Cruz is he stands up to the establishment that could make his career much easier and more lucrative. How many others have done that?

    DRJ (15874d)

  107. And I think that phrase is from the Nixon era.

    DRJ (15874d)

  108. What he has done is deprive a number of genuinely worthy GOP candidates of an opportunity — during a cycle in which the Democratic nominee is now effectively uncontested — to showcase their respective merits and positions.

    Deprive? How so? Actually, what unnerves me is that the Republican field of candidates would have come off as too bland or business-as-usual without the loud-mouth antics (but “loud mouth” not necessarily a negative when it involves the upending of the apple cart of political correctness) of Donald Trump.

    However, Trump has — as you say — deprived Republicans like Jeb Bush an easy entry into the process, and prevented him from showcasing whatever he had to showcase (or business-as-usual, namby-pamby Republicanism), and that’s a good thing.

    Mark (f713e4)

  109. Ron Ziegler (a/k/a Ziegliar), Noxon’s press secretary during the Untergang.

    nk (dbc370)

  110. *Nixon’s*, that was an honest typo

    nk (dbc370)

  111. The reason I like Cruz is he stands up to the establishment that could make his career much easier and more lucrative.

    It’s interesting that some of those forumers most unhappy with and unnerved by Trump generally favor Ted Cruz, although Cruz among the various Republicans has — at least so far — avoided getting into a tiff with Donald. Not sure how much of that is purely a strategy on Cruz’s part (meaning perhaps Ted dislikes Trump as much as certain other Republicans do?), or perhaps because Cruz sees how tactically and ideologically murky and volatile everything is right now and realizes we’re, as the cliche goes, entering uncharted waters.

    Mark (f713e4)

  112. BTW, I liked the blackoliveskalamata guy being roughed up. It’s about time somebody did it.

    nk (dbc370)

  113. I know protesters can be disruptive and irritating, especially when they heckle, but I prefer seeing police escort them out unless there is a clear threat or danger. Maybe that happened with Trump and I missed it. Is that what happened?

    DRJ (15874d)

  114. I think Cruz is hoping that eventually enough people will realize Trump isn’t a good candidate after all and will look to see who brings some of Trump’s energy and independence and hasn’t been an enemy.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly, and out and about) (deca84) — 11/22/2015 @ 2:52 pm

    Exactly. It’s that old technique of allowing your opponent enough rope to hang himself. Even if it isn’t Cruz (yes, I’m partial to him: what’s not to like about a candidate who actually understands the Constitution?), I just don’t want a Dem Lite. That means no Jeb?, no Christie, and damn sure no Trump. After watching that last roundtable from a couple nights ago, I at least warmed to Huckabee, maaaaayyyyybe Santorum. Fiorina and Carson were quite presentable, but nether of them are quite ready for prime time yet. Not really sure what I hink of Rubio.

    If I really have to, I’ll vote Trump. But it sure would be nice for once to back and vote for a chosen candidate, not vote against the other.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  115. I only know what Patterico tells me, DRJ. 😉 I’m making my judgment about the Black Olives from what they have been pulling for the last year, and recently and notably at Bernie Sanders events and at Dartmouth. And that I have this sentiment helps me understand the sentiments of Trump supporters. But pique is not a basis for electing a President.

    nk (dbc370)

  116. We could use a Zombie Lee Atwater about now.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  117. But pique is not a basis for electing a President.

    nk (dbc370) — 11/22/2015 @ 8:42 pm

    Writ large and well proven over the last two cycles.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  118. We could use a Zombie Lee Atwater about now.

    Photoshops of Trump and Hillary in a hot tub? Errmm, I dunno.

    nk (dbc370)

  119. We could use a Zombie Lee Atwater about now.

    Photoshops of Trump and Hillary in a hot tub? Errmm, I dunno.

    nk (dbc370) — 11/22/2015 @ 8:48 pm

    C’mon, admit it. That’s a da*m funny thought.

    Bill H (2a858c)

  120. That’s another one of his serial exaggerations, in fact, as when he insists that “Before me, nobody was talking about immigration.”

    He’s not a lawyer or a scientist. He’s a businessman/promoter/media guy. He’s not speaking to the 4th significant figure of precision. He’s speaking in narrative and rhetoric and so on, with core points.

    I mean, seriously, Santorum has been speaking about this for years. What Trump is saying here is that no one had spoken, in a sustained way, about immigration with his level of prominence (and also relatively recently). He’s aware that somewhere, sometime, someone has spoken about immigration.

    You can oppose his policies, fear his intentions, or disagree with his competence or whatnot, but that’s kind of a straw man.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  121. “I should clarify that it was Republican leaders who wanted to give up on immigration. Not the people, obviously.”

    This much is so. And Trump has used his communications ability to put that into the spotlight where it belongs.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  122. While I probably caught on quicker than some that his campaign was taking off in a sustained way, I’ll be honest that at the beginning of this thing I didn’t expect Trump to do as well as he has. I was just thrilled that he was forcing immigration (and a few other related topics) into the public consciousness, and I initially assumed this was his goal.

    However, the time was right and it caught on and here we are. I say he should run the ball into the endzone and do what the Republican leadership has refused to do.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  123. “He’s not a lawyer or a scientist. He’s a businessman/promoter/media guy. He’s not speaking to the 4th significant figure of precision. He’s speaking in narrative and rhetoric and so on, with core points.”

    So he can say whatever the hell he wants, and you will continue to blindly and religiously follow someone that supports Dem politicos and Dem policies with his money and his words, but now is the voice of conservatism.

    JD (34f761)

  124. You are so smart that you caught on quicker than most. We are blessed to have such a special snowflake amongst us.

    JD (34f761)

  125. So he can say whatever .So he can say whatever the hell he wants

    No. This is definitely a straw man. I obviously support the broad strokes of his policies. I’m OK with him speaking in similar broad strokes.

    I mean, it works, right? Have you, for example, ever taken sales training? He could teach it, I’m sure. Well, here’s how it works. You’re not allowed to materially misrepresent a product or service or the terms of the conduct, but “sales puffery” is legally allowed. I.e., “It’s the best; it’s going to work so well; we’re going to have so many victories you’re going to get tired of them; etc.”

    That’s what he’s doing. And if you’re saying a politician shouldn’t use good salesmenship when pursuing office, we respectfully disagree. I’m sure that if you were so inclined to parse Ronald Reagan’s speeches, or even George S. Patton’s, you’d find they weren’t entirely precise.

    Great communicators use narrative, story, examples, quotes, and broad strokes. At least that’s my take on it.

    I like the precision, mostly, but he’s doing something most, yours truly included, probably could not do. Not successfully, anyway.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  126. Would you buy a used car from Donald Trump?

    nk (dbc370)

  127. *terms of the contract

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  128. “Would you buy a used car from Donald Trump?”

    Since he obsesses over quality and that’s his brand, hell yes.

    The Pattern Repeats (9cd0a2)

  129. Nk- never.

    JD (34f761)

  130. This is why I’ll only vote for trump (let’s stop capitalizing it) if it wins the nomination. It is much worse than the only possible alternatives to it, in that event. Hoping for Crubio, though.

    Mitch (bfd5cd)

  131. For the life of me, I don’t understand the reluctance to give the devil his due.

    ThOR (a52560)

  132. this ‘trial balloon’ is a negotiating tool, Mair and Wilson, with the skill of those burglars in Home Alone, missed by a country mile, and he’s acting preemptively,

    narciso (732bc0)

  133. In my religion, giving the Devil his due means to spit on him three times. The godfather does it at the baptism.

    nk (dbc370)

  134. In 1987. Does all of a sudden say 28 years ago to you?

    And probably again in 2001 and 2013. Can you prove he’s been a Republican every year since? Because if so, he’s been a “Republican” for single payer, a a “Republican” for gun control, a “Republican” for raising taxes, etc. What most people would call a RINO. The only reason he probably didn’t vote for Clinton and Gore and Kerry was that he probably didn’t vote.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  135. and you will continue to blindly and religiously follow someone that supports Dem politicos and Dem policies with his money and his words

    Trump is squishy to be sure, but if his pushing the issue of illegal immigration to the forefront — and helping downsize rivals like Jeb Bush in the process — and at least stating (repeat: stating) that America has lost its greatness over the past several years are signs of liberal biases on his part, then maybe such biases aren’t so bad after all.

    Sarcasm aside, the fact enough of the American electorate is so clueless about leftism, or worse of all, has far too much of a fondness for liberalism (eg, the positive poll ratings given to sleazy Hillary going back years) that it allowed a piece of junk like Barry not-a-good-man Obama into the White House, not just once but twice, should make everyone — or at least conservatives — realize how easy it is for “we, the American people” (but people in general throughout the world) to really screw things up.

    Meanwhile, thousands of miles away on this same continent, the people of Argentina presumably out of sheer desperation and having gotten slapped in the head far too many times by their own version of Barack/Hillary, finally got a clue this week. But just like clockwork, that same electorate in the future likely will fall for the siren song of foolish liberalism all over again. Nonetheless, at this moment in time, thank God for small favors.

    Mark (f713e4)

  136. Lyndon Johnson became President and reversed Kennedy’s policy of withdrawing combat troops from Vietnam.

    Which was popular at the time. Consider the GOP candidate’s position in 1964. Besides, Johnson was ending Jim Crow, which was REALLY popular outside the South. BY 1965, LBJ thought he could do anything. And so he sent 600,000 young men to VietNam

    It wasn’t until the massive escalation didn’t produce anything but body bags, Cronkite turned on LBJ and things came off the rails. By 1967, The War had become the only issue, and sex, drugs and Rock & roll became the escape.

    B

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  137. I’m still not convinced you are a good man, Mark.

    JD (34f761)

  138. Mark hearts a squish and liberal biases.

    JD (34f761)

  139. He’s done this out of ego, and it’s no more useful than any other exercise in extreme egotism, and it’s more destructive than most.

    Beldar, you’re too charitable.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  140. LOL It’s really becoming entertaining watching Patterico go after Trump as a liar here, omitting — glaringly — that Trump actually said at the time he signed the loyalty plegde that the one reason for doing so (not “a” reason, or part of the reason) was being treated fairly by the RNC, and that he had received assurance he would continue to be treated fairly.

    Here’s the quote, and it’s from CNN on Sept 3rd (and can be found on numerous other sources)

    Asked what he got in return for signing the paper, Trump responded: “assurance that I will be treated fairly.”

    Link to source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/politics/donald-trump-2016-rnc-pledge-meeting/

    All of us already know that the loyalty pledge is not a legally enforceable document. That being said, clearly, if the RNC breaks its assurance not to treat Trump fairly (which the Wall Street Journal has reported that this may indeed be happening,here: http://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-plans-guerrilla-campaign-against-donald-trump-1448050937), Trump is not only free to break the pledge, he is actually morally — and honorably — within his rights to do so!

    So yeah, I call BS on calling Trump a liar here. So much so, Patterico, that I’m actually calling you the liar on this one. I know you hate him, but it’s not cool. Especially coming from you when you can be so objective with most all of your other postings, even thought it may pain you to do so. Trump has really, really! gotten into your head!

    School Marm (f96753)

  141. I’m still not convinced you are a good man, Mark.

    JD, I sure as heck at least know that Barry isn’t one, and based on his scroungy history, has never been one.

    Mark (f713e4)

  142. I know you hate him, but it’s not cool.

    That’s okay and all — since Trump does have quirks that make me nervous — but the big question is he at least a good man?

    Mark (f713e4)

  143. Realclimate.org is deeee funct. And there was a lot of funk in there.
    Smelled so bad it was dragging down the whole party.

    Trump, unlike any other candidate you’d care to mention, said “Global warming is “bull****”.

    The other candidates, most of them, bow down to the bull****, with some variation of “I don’t question the authenticity of the science, it just we can’t afford to fix it right now.”
    That’s the best of them. The worst of them are angling to get in on a piece of the action.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  144. The republican party is a band of losers, only concerned with maintaining 2nd place.

    mg (31009b)

  145. My father was a salesman — family owned-and-operated auto parts store, which then transitioned through hardware, white goods (refrigerators, washers & dryers), and furniture. I spent a great many hours at his knee and then his elbow, and eventually he made me into a pretty good salesman.

    So on behalf of salesmen everywhere, I resent the comparison of Trump to a salesman.

    Good salesmen — successful salesmen over an entire career — don’t rely on lies, nor even puffery. They are specific and detailed.

    A salesman helps you figure out that you need something, and why you need it, and what exactly you need, and then helps you get it. The miracle of capitalism is that both sides, by definition, end up happier when it’s complete; wealth has been created. The salesman’s skills and services put bread on his family’s table, and it’s well-earned.

    Trump makes deals and then breaks them. He cheats, exaggerates, whines, bullies, and raves. He brags about this very thing. He’s left behind a spectacular string of innocent suckers who had to eat — write off, swallow, go without any recourse on — all the billions of dollars in debts he wiped out in bankruptcy court.

    That’s not a salesman, that’s a very skillful con man. He’s not to be trusted, he’s to be shunned — in business, in politics, in every aspect of human life.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  146. Since Obama took office the Fed has turned into a criminal enterprise. Here’s a sad truth.
    IN OBAMA’S AMERICA: Federal agents took more money and stuff from Americans in 2014 than burglars did.

    In 2014, the federal government confiscated some $4.5 billion from Americans through civil asset forfeiture, according to a recent report from the Institute for Justice, a nonprofit libertarian law and research organization.

    That’s a figure which has been growing rapidly in recent years—as recently as 2008 it was “just” $1.5 billion, and there’s compelling evidence that law enforcement agencies use this license to bolster their budgets in lean years.

    In the words of one officer, civil asset forfeiture funds are “kind of like pennies from heaven. It gets you a toy or something that you need is the way that we typically look at it to be perfectly honest.”

    That $4.5 billion figure is shocking on its own.

    But it’s even more shocking when you put it in this perspective: in that same year, FBI records show burglars took only $3.9 billion from Americans.

    So in 2014, the federal government took more money and stuff from Americans than actual burglars did.

    Our government is “getting really good at separating the citizen from their property — not just really good, criminally good.”

    Them black lives matter people have a point, even if they are a little myopic in their judgement of who the government is victimizing.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  147. He’s left behind a spectacular string of innocent suckers who had to eat

    yes yes yes this is what i want trump to do on the democrats and the chamberboy pedophile republicans

    and i hardly ever ask for anything

    happyfeet (831175)

  148. You seem to describe the republican party, Beldar. That party has lost all credibility with it’s former base. It must hurt seeing your party get ripped apart, but from where I sit it’s about darn time. The republicans have cowered at every turn in fighting obama’s failed programs. Can’t get behind liars, cheats and quitters.
    Cruz/West.

    mg (31009b)

  149. And he decides if he’s been treated fairly. Which means if he gets the nomination. Now pull the other one, School Marm.

    nk (dbc370)

  150. So long again, Christoph / The Pattern Repeats.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  151. Here’s the quote, and it’s from CNN on Sept 3rd (and can be found on numerous other sources)

    Asked what he got in return for signing the paper, Trump responded: “assurance that I will be treated fairly.”

    Link to source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/politics/donald-trump-2016-rnc-pledge-meeting/

    All of us already know that the loyalty pledge is not a legally enforceable document. That being said, clearly, if the RNC breaks its assurance not to treat Trump fairly (which the Wall Street Journal has reported that this may indeed be happening,here: http://www.wsj.com/articles/gop-operative-plans-guerrilla-campaign-against-donald-trump-1448050937), Trump is not only free to break the pledge, he is actually morally — and honorably — within his rights to do so!

    So yeah, I call BS on calling Trump a liar here. So much so, Patterico, that I’m actually calling you the liar on this one. I know you hate him, but it’s not cool. Especially coming from you when you can be so objective with most all of your other postings, even thought it may pain you to do so. Trump has really, really! gotten into your head!

    From the same story, here’s what the pledge says:

    “I, ________, affirm that if I do not win the 2016 Republican nomination for President of the United States I will endorse the 2016 Republican presidential nominee regardless of who it is,” it reads.

    The pledge continues: “I further pledge that I will not seek to run as an independent or write-in candidate nor will I seek or accept the nomination for president of any other party.”

    It doesn’t say “unless I decide I have been treated unfairly by someone from the Republican Party.”

    If Mr. Art of the Deal couldn’t get an escape clause, then he is bound by the document.

    Except, as you point out, it’s not legally binding. And, as I point out, everyone knows he’s a liar and that his word is worthless.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  152. Think of it like a tonteen, of course the mair/wilson false flag was pure top men stategery.

    narciso (a1aef7)

  153. Check out this graphic from March 2015.

    The whole country heard Trump’s conditions. But this whole running from the third party, the non existent third party, has always seemed like a bargaining chip, used as a convenient shiv to stick in his side at the first debate from the Thad Cochran type of GOPe, and the lever they left Trump with on his end.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  154. Retail salespeople like Beldar’s family are the most trusted folks in the sales profession, but that’s not true for all salespeople like those in car and financial sales. My guess is most Americans believe people like Trump engage in puffery as a matter of course so that criticism won’t really hurt him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  155. Patterico,

    you are disturbing me with your “loyalty pledge” mindset. We are bound to ideas, not parties. The current Republican party can DIAF for all I care. They are nothing more than Democrats from the 1980’s who want an ever expanding government with themselves at the wheel. They want a new base so they don’t have to be beholden to the one in flyover country. They want people to vote for them on their terms, not on the voters’. Why the heck should anyone support that group with a pledge of loyalty?

    You stab me in the back, I’m damn well going to renege on any agreement and do my darndest to prevent you from ever attacking me again.

    NJRob (a07d2e)

  156. Trump, unlike any other candidate you’d care to mention, said “Global warming is “bull****”.

    He’s a squish, to be sure, but if he were an out-and-out liberal or leftist, he’d not react in that particular manner. Of course, there are some liberals who aren’t Green Earthers, but left-leaning instincts often result in a gut response of “oh, poor Mother Nature, hurt and made mad by we humans!,” even more so in spite of dealing with innocuous gases like CO2 or the extremely ambiguous issue of AGW compared with the flat-out pollutants of decades ago.

    Mark (f713e4)

  157. I’m afraid that wherever the salesmen like Beldar’s father are, they aren’t where I live.

    I imagine that the private owner of an enterprise, especially not in a metropolis, and interested in building a customer base, has much more invested in being that kind of businessman than the typical worker in a big chain store.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  158. you are disturbing me with your “loyalty pledge” mindset. We are bound to ideas, not parties.

    I agree. Who said I think anyone should take a loyalty pledge? I just like pointing out how Trump’s word is worthless.

    Also, since when is trying to defeat an opponent in a primary “stabbing them in the back”?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  159. Ask christine o’donnell, or mcdaniel, or wolf, about that.

    narciso (a1aef7)

  160. you are disturbing me with your “loyalty pledge” mindset. We are bound to ideas, not parties.

    I agree. Who said I think anyone should take a loyalty pledge? I just like pointing out how Trump’s word is worthless.

    Also, since when is trying to defeat an opponent in a primary “stabbing them in the back”?

    Patterico (86c8ed) — 11/23/2015 @ 7:45 am

    As narciso said, ask O’Donnell. Ask McDaniel. Ask Wolf. Ask Joe Miller.

    The party doesn’t give a damn what its voters want. The party doesn’t have an opponent in the primary. They are all within the party. Unless you think this is the politburo?

    NJRob (a07d2e)

  161. The party doesn’t have an opponent in the primary. They are all within the party. Unless you think this is the politburo?

    NJRob (a07d2e) — 11/23/2015 @ 7:51 am

    What does that mean?

    Gerald A (5dca03)

  162. I’ve heard talk that the GOPe is going to try to suppress the Republican turnout in the primary season, specifically to undercut Trump.

    Don’t know how they would do that. (Maybe with a bunch of bull**** stories all in a row? Maybe.)

    That strikes me as sort of back stabby.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  163. Or maybe like deleting all the stories about American Muslims celebrating 9/11 on roof tops in New Jersey.

    Too bad they missed that one in the Washington Post. Someone should tell Fox News.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  164. DRJ – But what interests me more is why Trump is leading the polls.

    One of the patterico.com writers should take a serious shot at explaining it, minus the Gawker-strength snark.

    scrutineer (b7d257)

  165. Heh. The GOP knows how to suppress turnout.

    DRJ (15874d)

  166. Or maybe like deleting all the stories about American Muslims celebrating 9/11 on roof tops in New Jersey.

    Too bad they missed that one in the Washington Post. Someone should tell Fox News.

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:11 am

    I didn’t know the GOPe can delete stories.

    Don’t forget Bush is deliberately doing badly to help Rubio or something.

    Why do Trump supporters increasingly sound like moonbats?

    Gerald A (5dca03)

  167. What does that mean?

    Gerald A (5dca03) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:05 am

    It means the party has already agreed they all represent it by having them on the ballot. By going to war against a member of the party, you are saying they aren’t a part of the party. If they aren’t a part of the party, there’s no reason to support it.

    I mentioned the politburo because of the belief that you must support the one party above all.

    NJRob (a07d2e)

  168. scrutineer,

    They will if it interests them but we can discuss it here, too. Why do you think Trump is doing well?

    DRJ (15874d)

  169. Asked what he got in return for signing the paper, Trump responded: “assurance that I will be treated fairly.”

    Did that happen, or did he make it up?

    scrutineer (b7d257)

  170. Well he was on to something here:

    You’re not allowed to materially misrepresent a product or service or the terms of the conduct, but “sales puffery” is legally allowed.

    This is why Trump talks with a heavy reliance on analogies. Trump says he’s going to build a wall, –and he’s going to put “a big beautiful door in it!” Heck, a wall probably needs more than one door, right? Then after the deal is closed and he is President he can determine what he meant by doors. If you thought he meant “x”,– well sucks to be you,–Trump meant “y”.

    Then he goes on with this part :

    I’m sure that if you were so inclined to parse Ronald Reagan’s speeches, or even George S. Patton’s, you’d find they weren’t entirely precise.

    He compares Trump to Reagan and Patton –however there is a huuuuge and fabulous difference. Patton had a record for decades as a soldier –rising through the ranks, and Reagan had been governor of a large economy–California. Reagan and Patton earned people’s trust in their chosen fields, Trump has not earned that kind of respect, and he fails to respect his bosses–the electorate. Trump doesn’t even think the voters deserve to be given a specific, coherent and consistent plan on national security, which is the primary responsibility of a national government. He can’t even be bothered to be specific about that.

    DRG (76b104)

  171. #169

    Has anyone been able to identify any specific way the party has gone to war against Trump? Other than unsubstantiated rumors?

    Gerald A (5dca03)

  172. Reassuring Americans, President Barack Obama said Sunday that ISIS “cannot strike a mortal blow” against the nation. However, he added that Americans shouldn’t overreact to the Paris attacks, as that would be playing right into the extremists’ hands.
    Read more at Obama cautions about Overreaction to ISIS

    Where is Obama now? Myanmar?

    I interpret this as Obama reassures the country that he’ll be safe, no matter if the country reacts. Individual American’s mileage might vary. Always a good time to bash those scardy cat Republicans, though.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  173. #169

    Has anyone been able to identify any specific way the party has gone to war against Trump? Other than unsubstantiated rumors?

    Gerald A (5dca03) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:20 am

    We can argue whether or not certain establishment sycophants count as party agents of not, but this is all a hypothetical as to whether Trump would be able to run as a 3rd party agent with legitimacy. Since he is still in the primary, all discussions are moot.

    NJRob (a07d2e)

  174. I would say that the incident with the BLM guy who disrupted the Trump speech smells of some kind of dirty trick. I suspect he and CNN (which immediately put out a false narrative about the incident) may have been working together. But is it in any way credible that the GOPe works with CNN (Clinton News Network) and BLM? I would believe it was the Clinton campaign before I’d believe that.

    Gerald A (5dca03)

  175. #176

    Third possibility, which may be the most likely:CNN and BLM did it on their own.

    Gerald A (5dca03)

  176. This Newsweek article is the one of the best I’ve read on the Trump phenomenon.

    DRJ (15874d)

  177. @DRJ, Trump is the first candidate in memory to push immigration populism so fiercely that he either a) believes it, or b) has boxed himself in so that if he wins and reneges, it will provoke a revolution. When critics accuse him of PC violations, he tells them to sex themselves. He enrages GOP mandarins who exist to dupe conservatives and harvest their votes.

    (The GOPe response to the last amounts to, “those are my marks, how dare you fleece them.”)

    scrutineer (b7d257)

  178. That is probably part if his appeal but I think there’s more. This article even states that it’s because Trump wouldn’t promise to support the GOP nominee that he first became popular. It showed he was the only one willing to stand up to the establishment. I hadn’t thought of that but I think it could be right. This issue is helping Trump, not hurting him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  179. I’m tickled pink that a candidate I picked out of thin air is kicking the fields butt by double digits.

    Never happened before. It compares to the time I put a two dollar ticket on the long shot at the harness races. Didn’t even watch the race. Came back from the parking lot to find out I’d won.

    Donald Trump and Rocky Rio for the exacta.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  180. Obama is in Kuala Lumphur and he just described ISIS as “a bunch of killers with good soctal media.” He’s watching too much ESPN.

    DRJ (15874d)

  181. One of the patterico.com writers should take a serious shot at explaining it, minus the Gawker-strength snark.

    scrutineer (b7d257) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:13 am

    Later:

    When critics accuse him of PC violations, he (Trump) tells them to sex themselves

    scrutineer (b7d257) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:48 am

    **************

    Decorum is demanded of any opponent of Trump, while admiring the lack of decorum deployed by Trump.

    DRG (76b104)

  182. #181. Not going to happen for you in the general election. Live by the media polls, die by the media polls.

    DRG (76b104)

  183. DRJ – This article even states that it’s because Trump wouldn’t promise to support the GOP nominee that he first became popular.

    Trump was crushing the field (#1 at 23.2% vs #2 Bush at 12.8%) before the Aug. 6 event cited. His numbers actually dropped during the three weeks following that debate.

    Do Pattericans think, “I don’t much care about immigration, so that couldn’t possibly be the principal thing driving Trump voters”?

    scrutineer (b7d257)

  184. rare among Patterico regulars, I am an actual Californian.

    So in the general, they’ll find a way to force us to vote Obama a third term. No illusions in that regard.

    But the rest of you guys. I want to give you all a hug.

    OOOO Alabama. OOOO Alaska. OOOO Arkansas. You get the point.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  185. DRG – Decorum is demanded of any opponent of Trump, while admiring the lack of decorum deployed by Trump.

    Haha, no. People can be as mean about Trump as they like. He should be put through the wringer.

    The problem is that, instead of analysis of Trump’s rise, we get stunned, offended disbelief. “He’s popular because those rubes are celebrity-obsessed” is not analysis, it’s an evasion.

    scrutineer (b7d257)

  186. scrutineer

    Look at the ABC/Washington Post poll–the one that Trump fans are touting.

    What does it say in its pdf report about the question you asked? It’s easy to find it’s linked at Real Clear Politics.

    Then if you believe in polling and it’s supposed abilities to predict the future, I guess that explains why Trump and his fans will be susceptible to Global Warming alarmists.

    DRG (76b104)

  187. I guess that explains why Trump and his fans will be susceptible to Global Warming alarmists.

    Almost got through an exchange without a whopper. Global warming is bull****. Haven’t you heard?

    Not from your candidate you didn’t.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  188. Haha, no. People can be as mean about Trump as they like. He should be put through the wringer.

    The problem is that, instead of analysis of Trump’s rise, we get stunned, offended disbelief. “He’s popular because those rubes are celebrity-obsessed” is not analysis, it’s an evasion.

    scrutineer (b7d257) — 11/23/2015 @ 9:49 am

    **********

    Okay, I misunderstood you, although there are others contradicting themselves in that manner.

    Polling, even the best polling–(and I am at the point where I only like the Field Poll–although since they do not reveal their methodology, I am only basing that on their past performance )– is static, it at best gives you a snapshot of opinion at the time it is conducted. Also a true scientist would not wish to effect the results by his measurements, but outfits such as Public Policy Polling(D) flood the average with “product” because they do not suffer from that ethic, in fact the end justifies their crappy methodology. I have long wanted polling which divides this great country down to its demographics to be delegitimized.

    DRG (76b104)

  189. I agree most of Trump’s support is because of immigration, scrutineer. Maybe all of it, but I’m not convinced that’s the case and I’d like to understand.

    DRJ (15874d)

  190. Well Inhofe was no fool, but there were plenty of bloggers who thought Inhofe was stupid.

    If you believe in the polling so unblinkingly, pretty easy to assume you would not question the “science” of Global Warming.

    You personally might not have bought into it, but are you positive all of Trump’s fans and Trump himself have stood firm in that area? Or did they get swept up in “popular opinion “?

    DRG (76b104)

  191. Nube

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  192. Actually it looks like that might be the one area Trump hasn’t waffled on.

    Still polling is junk science, and if you believe it can make predictions about the future with certainty–you will fall for a lot of other junk science.

    DRG (76b104)

  193. Nube

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/23/2015 @ 10:22 am

    *************

    Trump is very inconsistent in a lot of areas, his own personal business interests kept him steady in that area
    As far as I can tell. Surprised actually that he didn’t do his usual routine and follow the people he donated money to politically.

    DRG (76b104)

  194. who’s a fool is Jeb i think

    he’s become a joke in the pursuit of something he had absolutely no business pursuing

    i’m embarrassed for him, for his family, for all the morons what gave him an ungodly amount of money

    i don’t see how this porcine bozo ever recovers from this

    happyfeet (831175)

  195. I’d like someone to cite the last time they heard a Republican candidate endlessly whining, whining, WHINING about “not being treated fairly.”

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1)

  196. @DRJ, Trump is the first candidate in memory to push immigration populism so fiercely that he either a) believes it, or b) has boxed himself in so that if he wins and reneges, it will provoke a revolution. When critics accuse him of PC violations, he tells them to sex themselves. He enrages GOP mandarins who exist to dupe conservatives and harvest their votes.

    (The GOPe response to the last amounts to, “those are my marks, how dare you fleece them.”)

    scrutineer (b7d257) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:48 am

    Provoke a revolution. Oh, really. And what do you think President Trump will do when he’s faced with revolt? Clue: “Maybe he should’ve been roughed up.”

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1)

  197. When’s the last time a Republican was treated fairly?

    Among many things President Bush, candidates Romney and McCain had in common, they could take a good cheap shot across the chops without returning fire.

    Leave that up to you if that was a good strategy.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  198. Do Pattericans think, “I don’t much care about immigration, so that couldn’t possibly be the principal thing driving Trump voters”?

    Not sure how many Republicans are either indifferent or hostile towards Trump based on the way they perceive the issue of illegal immigration. Some libertarian conservatives likely aren’t concerned about that controversy, and certainly quite a few country-club Republicans — who love cheap, plentiful labor (and are modern-day versions of the Americans who kept the slave trade humming generations ago) — look the other way while padding their wallets (knowing that if push comes to shove, they can always easily and happily vote with their feet and the moving van).

    If statistics going back decades or generations indicated American school students of Latino background performed as well academically as — and certainly better than — other students, I’d be far more complacent about this particular controversy. (That along with if countries like Mexico had a long history of strongly favoring truly centrist to conservative politics and politicians.)

    Mark (74fce8)

  199. L.N. Smithee, that’s a good point. Since I think the demographic displacement of the American majority matters more than any other issue, I’ll gamble that Trump will do the popular thing. No other candidate even credibly pretends to care about this, so they’re out by default. Constitutional originalists who think our republic is salvageable, or that it will survive after European descendants become a minority, are whistling past the graveyard.

    If Ted Cruz announced he would restore pre-1965 immigration policy, I would donate to, volunteer for, and vote for him. But he can’t, so he won’t.

    scrutineer (b7d257)

  200. scrutineer (b7d257) — 11/23/2015 @ 11:35 am

    If Ted Cruz announced he would restore pre-1965 immigration policy, I would donate to, volunteer for, and vote for him. But he can’t, so he won’t.

    Pre-1965 immigration policy had no quota for would-be immigrants from the western hemisphere, if they came from an independent country. That’s why Cubans had no trouble coming here when Castro took over — they just hopped on a plane to Miami if they weren’t stopped.

    People from Jamaica could not come, with very few exceptions, until Jamaica became independent in 1962. Then it was open to all, except that they had to meet the quality rules, like not becoming a public charge but also not having obtained a job in advance – both 1885 laws.

    Immigration policy was based on country of birth, or maybe original citizenship. Not current residence or citizenship. As of 1929.

    For Ireland the quota was so large that anyone from Ireland who wanted to emigrate to the United States pretty much could. That was the law until January 1, 1968.

    The reason a lot of Mexicans were deportable in 1953 was that they had come completely informally or without paying a $10 tax or whatever because their employers had brought them over that way.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  201. 191. DRJ (15874d) — 11/23/2015 @ 10:08 am

    I agree most of Trump’s support is because of immigration, scrutineer. Maybe all of it, but I’m not convinced that’s the case and I’d like to understand.

    Forty years of uncontradicted propaganda on talk radio, with nobody arguing the other side.

    Make that 41. I think this started in 1974.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  202. When’s the last time a Republican was treated fairly?

    Among many things President Bush, candidates Romney and McCain had in common, they could take a good cheap shot across the chops without returning fire.

    Leave that up to you if that was a good strategy.

    papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/23/2015 @ 10:51 am

    I’m referring to whining about not being treated fairly by the party itself.

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1)


  203. He compares Trump to Reagan and Patton –however there is a huuuuge and fabulous difference. Patton had a record for decades as a soldier –rising through the ranks, and Reagan had been governor of a large economy–California. Reagan and Patton earned people’s trust in their chosen fields, Trump has not earned that kind of respect, and he fails to respect his bosses–the electorate. Trump doesn’t even think the voters deserve to be given a specific, coherent and consistent plan on national security, which is the primary responsibility of a national government. He can’t even be bothered to be specific about that.

    DRG (76b104) — 11/23/2015 @ 8:20 am

    Thank you! It drives me NUTS when I hear those ridiculous comparisons made by people that I respect for the most part (Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter).

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1)

  204. I want e-verify to be mandatory.

    I want the corporations that hire illegals to pay a 150k fine for each illegal hired, and personnel managers to do 30 days in jail for each illegal hired, consecutive and not concurrent.

    I want all Federal funds to Sanctuary Cities stopped. Not just discretionary funding, all funding, and won’t be returned even after the Sanctuary City cries uncle. No more Pell Grants to USF students. No more ADC to Houston octomoms. Let Berzerkely figure out how to pay for all the Medicare and Medicaid services. All funding dries up. States that issue licenses to illegals get no highway funds and no FEMA funds.

    I want ICE at every “illegal-rights” protest, locking up every illegal that attends. We know where they are; they just got done announcing where they are.

    Yes, I want illegals run out of the country on a rail, and all their money forfeit. But I also have no need for someone who thinks eminent domain lets him take an old lady’s home from her so a casino can build a parking lot. I have no use for someone who wants Single Payer. I am disgusted by someone who is willing to fund Planned Parenthood. And any who think the tax code is a great place to violate the Tenth Commandment, even more than it’s violated now, is undeserving of my vote.

    John Hitchcock (fc3568)

  205. I don’t why some people are trying to make the case that Donald Trump is honest.

    This takes the cake:

    http://time.com/4107636/transcript-read-the-full-text-of-the-fourth-republican-debate-in-milwaukee/

    ….as far as Syria, I like — if Putin wants to go in, and I got to know him very well because we were both on 60 Minutes, we were stablemates, and we did very well that night.

    Why exactly would Trump get to know Putin very well just because both interviews were aired on the same show?

    But more – since when does 60 Minutes do live interviews or put its guests on the same program in contact with each other??

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  206. e-verify is where poor pitiful cowardly failmerica forces private businesses to protect the borders since failmerica and her whorish and useless border patrol pansies do such a useless crappy job of it

    happyfeet (831175)

  207. @ John Hitchcock:I want the corporations that hire illegals to pay a 150k fine for each illegal hired, and personnel managers to do 30 days in jail for each illegal hired, consecutive and not concurrent.

    They cannot legally be punished for hiring illegals who present documents. Questioning a applicant’s documents, or trying to make them use specific documents, is illegal. It is national origin discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.

    If the documents are rejects by SSA, it is illegal to fire an employee for that. It is national origin discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. All an employer can do and avoid liability is ask the employee clear the matter up with SSA.

    Does that sound crazy? Crazy like a fox. The immigration laws are intended to be unenforceable.

    All an applicant has to do is present documents that appear to be valid. All an employer is allowed to do is accept those documents that the applicant chooses to present. If those documents are later rejected, the employee may not be fired and the employer is not liable for violating employment law.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  208. That’s because of h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y. The employers put those rules into place. Tyson Foods would go out of business without them. So would all the produce farmers. And restaurants. And hotels. And landscaping services. And others you could mention. They want the cheap illegal labor.

    nk (dbc370)

  209. @nk:They want the cheap illegal labor.

    And you don’t want to go to jail for not being able to detect fake documents. That’s why the “good faith” provision is in there.

    But here’s the thing–the documents should have the same sort of checkable authenticity as a credit card has. Why is a Social Security card not swipeable? Why does every gas station and grocery store have the technology to instantaneously check the status of a presented card so people can buy gum, but not to check to see if they are breaking the law?

    Why indeed.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  210. nk, don’t get all crazy emotional again. First, the employers didn’t put any rules into place, the lawyers and politicians did. If employers had the power to put rules in place there wouldn’t be 6,000 new anti-business regulations passed every year.

    Second, I don’t know about Tyson foods nor farmers, and BTW neither do you not being one, but I do know about restaurants. If an owner of a restaurant hires an illegal he does so 99% of the time knowing they’re illegal. I worked very hard to make sure I didn’t hire illegals. They’re really not hard to identify. Their “papers” and ID are not made by witness protection or the CIA and can be spotted a mile away usually. Plus, common sense dictates if you’re in doubt, don’t hire them.

    And when you go with “they want cheap illegal labor” you sound like a leftist BLM/OWS gimme $15 an hour clown. A businessman wants to pay what the job is worth but when non-business politicians keep passing laws telling businessmen how much to pay then they look elsewhere. No businessman with a brain wants an “illegal” who can barely speak English, if at all, over an American but when the left forces everybody into a box what do you expect? When they pass a law stating a seasonal grape picker in some rural area must make the same amount as a fry guy in a restaurant in New York how does that make sense? In what world are expenses the same in Buttwham, Kansas to Manhattan?

    Illegals are being encouraged to enter and being brought in for one reason: to replace the millions of votes the left loses through abortion. That’s why they want Hispanics, arabs, Africans et al. They want minorities they can control and make them the majority. You notice they don’t encourage doctors and engineers from Sweden or Scotland to come here. Just “people of color” with few if any skills. They bring them in then make sure they can’t find decent work so they go on the dole. Get them an EBT card then diver license then voter registration at the drive through and voila!, instant life long democrat/socialist voter. Why do you think they’re so hot for “moslem refugees”? Because they won’t be voting “Christian values” and they will help speed the end of that nasty Christianity that keeps putting up a fight against the great and Glorious secular left.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  211. illegals are stupid poopers

    all they think about is themselves

    happyfeet (831175)

  212. Mr. Trump thinks failmerica should rape the crap out of companies that try and flee its fascist tyranny

    shame on you Mr. The Donald

    you are a trashy whore and a pooper

    happyfeet (831175)

  213. is Ben Carson having a stroke?

    i’m concerned

    happyfeet (831175)

  214. but how would you tell

    happyfeet (831175)

  215. Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 11/23/2015 @ 12:45 pm

    All an employer is allowed to do is accept those documents that the applicant chooses to present. If those documents are later rejected, the employee may not be fired and the employer is not liable for violating employment law.

    I think the employer is supposed to fire the employee when the government tells him to fire the employee, but not before

    An employer is not supposed to make any request for documents or secondary proof to one potential employee that he does not make to all employees. At least if he is not checking for minimum age.

    An employee cannot be fired for lack of documentation until 3 days after he is hired. In some cases there is an appeals process.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  216. The difference between credit cards and Social Security or ID cards:

    Credit cards can have “authorized users” but I don’t think under present law that would be allowed for Social Security cards. Although something like that is discussed in Joe Haldeman’s “The Forever War”

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  217. 215. happyfeet (831175)

    is Ben Carson having a stroke?

    i’m concerned

    No, he’s just trying to make every right-wing position look reasonable, even when it isn’t. Like the way he compared excluding Syrian refugees to excluding rabid dogs. Except that the proper comparison would be keeping all strange dogs away, or keeping away from all dogs, because some of them might be rabid.

    Carson backs off when some advisers get to him. And tell him this isn’t right, and this isn’t smart.

    I don’t know if Carson actually saw the footage.

    My understanding is that the cheering was from Arabs in the Gaza Strip. This was not rebroadcast, probably at the request of the Bush Administration. Tonight the CBS Evening News said something about this being foreigners but wouldn’t say who they were. (except of course, that they weren’t in New Jersey)

    Various people on blogs and calling in to radio shows have reported seeing or being told about some people cheering or celebratinbg the September 11th attacks. This was always small groups – not “thousands and thousands” which sounds like there was a pro-attack rally in Jersey City.

    About people showing approval: I think this happened, and probably only the day of the attack, but they were quickly brought into line by imams, and, in return, the Bush Administration arranged with the media for this never to be mentioned again. Just the same way as they never broadcast again people jumping off the buildings or even the Osama bin Laden tape. Or any tape. They still don’t. The media are affected by appeals to patriotism, you know.

    I think the people mentioned as being arrested in the Washington Post are probably the four young Jews from Israel who, for some reason, became the subject of a prolonged investigation. They were eventually released after two and half months or so, and sued, but the suit was dismissed. They had not been arrested for celebrating (it seems like they decided to take pictures) They had been arrested because they were working illegally – otherwise they wouldn’t have been arrested. Some people in the FBI then tried to construct a theory that would have them involved in the attack.

    There were also Moslems who had known the hijackers who were arrested as “material witnesses” but that came later, and there was one person in a hotel by the World Trade Center who some FBI peolle fancied could have been involved, based on something missing, although it didn’t make any sense. The hijackers did not need any ground support.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  218. Maybe that was East Jerusalem (or at least the fotage is from there)

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

    Eason Jordan, CNN’s Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 — a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles.

    http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/reuters.statement/index.html

    The videotape in question was shot in East Jerusalem by a Reuters camera crew on September 11 in the immediate aftermath of the attacks on the United States. The footage was broadcast by CNN and other subscribers to the Reuters video news service.

    Also:

    Palestinian Authority actions to confiscate film footage of Palestinians celebrating the terror attacks on the US were logical to prevent the media from painting the wrong picture of Palestinian sentiment, Bassam Abu Sharif, an adviser to PA Chairman Yasser Arafat.

    “This was a normal preventive act . . . we don’t want to give more to the Zionist propaganda which portrays all Palestinians as terrorists,” he said. “The idea is that these people were not allowed to film, because a small group of people on film would represent the Palestinian people as a whole.”

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)


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