Patterico's Pontifications


Kim Davis: “My Conscience Or My Freedom”

Filed under: General — Dana @ 12:26 pm

[guest post by Dana]

Kim Davis, the Rowan County Clerk who was jailed for her refusal to issue same-sex marriage licenses, returned to work this morning. Davis explained how she felt caught between a rock and a hard spot as she announced that she will refrain from authorizing the marriage licenses, but will not stop her deputies from doing so:

“I am here before you this morning with a seemingly impossible choice, which I do not wish on any of my fellow Americans,” she said. “My conscience or my freedom.”

“My conscience or my ability to serve the people that I love,” Davis continued, choking back tears. “Obey God or a directive that forces me to disobey God.”

Her decision was clear, she said: “Effective immediately, and until an accommodation is provided, by those with the authority to provide it, any marriage license issued by my office will not be issued or authorized by me.”

“I love my deputy clerks and I hate that they have been caught in the middle. If any of them feels that they must issue an unauthorized license to avoid being thrown in jail, I understand their tough choice and I will take no action against them,” Davis said, but added: “Any unauthorized license that they issue will not have my name, my title or my authority on it. Instead, the license will state that they are issued pursuant to a federal court order.”

Given that Judge Bunning’s order clearly warned Davis not to “interfere in any way, directly or indirectly, with the efforts of her deputy clerks to issue marriage licenses to all legally eligible couples,” will this be enough to satisfy the court? And then, what of Davis’s most recent appeal to the Sixth Circuit?

Ed Morrissey considers the possibilities:

If the state of Kentucky recognizes these licenses as valid, then it should not cause Davis any more legal troubles. On the other hand, that would almost certainly moot the appeal, since the accommodation would allow Davis to act on her own conscience and still allow Rowan County residents to access the licenses. The state legislature will need to act to adapt licensing laws, perhaps more to ensure that county clerks cannot hijack the process in the future regardless of what the issue is, but they can also amend the statute to recognize the licenses that Davis’ office will now issue, with or without her signature and name on them.


94 Responses to “Kim Davis: “My Conscience Or My Freedom””

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. she’s so appallingly and flagrantly dishonest she makes me want to puke

    there’s no choice here between her pickles or her platypus or her poodles or her papoose much less her conscience or her freedom

    she’s lying

    what there is here is there’s the status quo where licenses are going out without her name (the accommodation she pitched an ungodly hissy fit to get) or there was the possibility she’d slurple on into the office today and make a buttface out of herself

    it looks like she chose the status quo

    which means she’s gonna go to work and let the fat kid do the licenses like how he’s been doing

    why she has to cloak this in angst and martyrdom is beyond me

    she got her accommodation done and done

    full disclosure: i have nothing but scorn and contempt for this sad creature

    happyfeet (831175)

  3. @ 2

    I agree with you ‘feet. It’s completely dishonest of her to allow these marriage licenses to go out if she has the power to stop them from being issued. I think she was unhappy in jail and didn’t want to suffer for her faith. Where are true martyrs?

    Jack (ff1ca8)

  4. There’s happyfascist lying and being anti-christian yet again. SSDD.

    John Hitchcock (eeea4b)

  5. SSDD!

    happyfeet (831175)

  6. Whatever. It’s not like we’re following laws in this country any more.

    luagha (e5bf64)

  7. The population of Rowan County was 23,527 in 2013. With homosexuals making up 1.6% of the population, and bisexuals another 0.7%, that puts the homosexual/bisexual population of Rowan County at roughly 376 + 165.

    In 2012, there were 2,131,000 marriages in the United States, out of a total population of 313,914,040. That population does not exclude children, but the CDC used the number anyway, to give a figure of 6.8 marriages per 1000 population, which kind of skews the number a bit. But if we use that number, and compare it to the total population of Rowan County, we’d expect roughly 156 total marriages in the county in a given year. Given the very low percentages of exclusively homosexual persons, 1.6%, we’d expect roughly just two to three –the actual number is 2.5 — desired marriages by homosexual couples in Rowan County in a given year.

    Yet, four homosexual couples have sued Mrs Davis (thus far). What am I to conclude other than homosexual activists have made a special effort against Mrs Davis?

    Well, four isn’t that great a number above three, so we’d still be talking margin of error in that regard. But if we star to see a flurry of homosexual “marriage” licenses requested in Rowan County, we’ll have all of the proof we need that this isn’t about same-sex couples wanting to get married, but about getting Mrs Davis.

    I wonder: just how many of the homosexual couples seeking licenses in Rowan County will actually get legally married?

    The Dana who set tobacco on his uncle's farm in Rowan County (1b79fa)

  8. How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.

    And so it is with marriage: you can call the relationship between two men or two women a marriage, but that doesn’t make it so.

    Abraham Lincoln (1b79fa)

  9. 6.Whatever. It’s not like we’re following laws in this country any more.

    Well, luagha, if they’d stop passing stupid laws directed at making some “group” happy maybe somebody would obey them. The lawyers have really screwed the law up. Bad. That’s why nobody respects them or the damn law any more.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  10. Practically speaking she’s continuing to play a losing hand but she is raising an interesting point about how how a judicial ruling is supposed to be implemented statutorily. If the rule of law is to have meaning it has to be based on enforceable statutes. It’s time for the legislature to either revise the statutes to reflect judicial rulings, accommodate her objections or impeach her for malfeasance. Instead everybody’s yapping and finger-pointing in a land where the law means what the people in power say it means – today.

    crazy (cde091)

  11. The State-established pro-choice cult cannot tolerate choice. Furthermore, under the ruling for “=”, or actually congruence, necessary to include couplets, institutional discrimination is now the law of the land.

    Oh, well. It was probably over when the pro-choice cult demanded and normalized sacrificial rites, harvesting, and trafficking under a planned parenthood charter. The progress of congruence was an inevitable outcome.

    n.n (af2590)

  12. Since Patterico approves of the jailing of Davis by Judge Bunning cause she clearly violated the law, should he also petition Bunning to jail Barky O for his violations of federal law (say Employer Mandate from the Audacity Con Act)?

    jb (fa28e6)

  13. speaking of governmental employees breaking the law, it seems Grandmonster Cankles has large gaps in the e-mails she deigned to turn over…

    when is she going to jail?

    redc1c4 (cf3b04)

  14. the failmerican department of justice is corrupt and shamelessly so Mr. red

    happyfeet (831175)

  15. Kentucky Dana:

    I wonder: just how many of the homosexual couples seeking licenses in Rowan County will actually get legally married?

    There are four plaintiff couples, all of whom reside in Rowan County according to the Complaint. Two of the couples are gay and two are straight. In addition to your question, I wonder how many of these couples will use their Rowan County licenses to get married in Rowan County instead of another county? And how many will use their Rowan County licenses instead of licenses issued by other counties?

    We could theoretically have answers to these questions in a month because Kentucky law requires that, within 30 days after the marriage license is issued, couples who get married must file a certificate of their marriage in the county where the license was issued. If there are no licenses/certificates filed in Rowan County in the next month, then that tells us the couples didn’t use the licenses to get married. Having said that, we may not know the answer since Kentucky law may only allow the parties to a marriage to get access to official records of the marriage.

    There is one other possible way to find the answers to these questions. On an earlier thread, kishnevi speculated whether the clerk would accept and file the marriage certificates since she doesn’t think the licenses were issued in a valid manner. I think that is a very good question. If the clerk refuses to file the marriage certificates because (as she claims) the licenses were not validly issued, then we may see this case back in court in a month.

    DRJ (521990)

  16. we may not know the answer since Kentucky law may only allow the parties to a marriage to get access to official records of the marriage

    i don’t think so cause i saw a site what had all four of Kim’s marriage licenses and it would surprise me if she released them herself

    happyfeet (831175)

  17. You can get copies of marriage certificates from the county clerk according to these rules, and I assume that’s how someone got the clerk’s marriage records, but I don’t see any way to get marriage records online. I could be wrong.

    DRJ (521990)

  18. Right now, she’s sitting pretty. She still has her job and she still has her finger in GLADD’s eye.

    nk (dbc370)

  19. plus her son still has the nepotism gig

    between them they’re sucking well into six figures out the piggy trough

    happyfeet (831175)

  20. how a judicial ruling is supposed to be implemented statutorily

    Many, many years ago it was understood that the courts had the power to interpret provisions of laws or declare a law (or a portion of a law) unconstitutional, rendering the law invalid.

    That proved to be an obstacle to the court imposing its will on the people. It required the legislature to enact laws consistent with the Court’s philosophy. If it failed, then the court would have to wait for a case to be brought through the proper channels, which could take years. And even then, there was no guarantee the law was consistent with the court’s desire. So the law would have to be struck down again and a new plaintiff found (although the plaintiff is immaterial to the issue the court wants to address).

    So the court annexed legislative authority from the legislature. It makes it much easier to shape law to your will when you’re unanswerable to the peasants.

    egd (1ad898)

  21. From Tony Perkins:

    The President’s party never met a law it didn’t want to ignore — until Kim Davis came along. Now, after years of swatting away legal statutes like political gnats, liberals are suddenly demanding that Christians respect the process they’ve spent the last several years dismissing. Keep in mind this is the administration that gave us Attorney General Eric “In contempt of Congress” Holder and Lois “I plead the 5th” Lerner.” Both followed the example of President Obama who refused to enforce the Federal Defense of Marriage Act because he thought it was unconstitutional.

    For an administration synonymous with “lawlessness,” this sudden call to play by the rules is as comical as it is hypocritical. As columnist Cameron Smith quipped, “It’s nice to see so many Democrats and liberals produce eloquent remarks and social media posts about America being a nation of laws. I knew it was only a matter of time until they came around.”

    After bypassing Congress on illegal amnesty, ObamaCare subsidies and exemptions, abortion policy, executive appointments, IRS targeting, and religious censorship, who are liberals to lecture about executing the law? Asked about the controversy, the same White House that openly defied the federal marriage statute insisted, “No public official is above the law.” No one, apparently, except the President.

    Gerald A (949d7d)

  22. Where are the “It’s the law of the land!” absolutists when they’re not trying to bankrupt opponents of gay marriage or throw them in jail?

    Oh, that’s right; they’re breaking the law of the land. Such as the Amendment.

    …Fully aware of the law, universities try subtle means of enforcing speech codes while insulating themselves from judicial review. Such codes will often impose explicit, unconstitutional speech restrictions at the same time that they claim these restrictions are not intended to violate the First Amendment. The University of California’s proposed policy is no exception. It claims (hilariously) that it is not intended to be used as a basis for discipline or to suppress “educational, political, artistic, or literary expression of students in classrooms and public forums that is protected by academic freedom or free speech principles.” Yet the entire policy suppresses expression protected by free-speech principles…

    Read more at:

    These university administrators have repeatedly instituted illegal and unconstitutional speech codes knowing they are illegal and unconstitutional. But they keep doing it.

    And the Second Amendment:

    Kim Davis, the Democrat Kentucky county clerk who refused to issue same-sex marriage licenses because of religious objections, was ordered to jail for contempt of court last Thursday. She suggested a compromise of removing her name from the licenses, but Federal District Court Judge David Bunning wouldn’t even grant that reasonable compromise.

    Contrast this with Cathy Lanier, chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, refusing to issue concealed weapons permits to people unless they can arbitrarily show a “good reason,” nothing required by law. A federal judge issued a preliminary injunction in May stopping her from denying the permits, although notably he did not send Lanier to jail for contempt.

    Similarly, county sheriffs in California had been denying concealed weapons permits to applicants who failed to show a need beyond self-defense. Last November, the Ninth Circuit ruled that the sheriffs were violating the law. None of those sheriffs were sent to jail…

    Unlike marriage licenses in Kentucky where you just go to the next county for a license (I looked up the law; a county judge/executive can issue a marriage license if the county clerk is absent, which is one of several accommodations her attorney proposed before the judge threw her in jail) Kali residents can only get concealed carry permits from the sheriff in the county they reside in.

    There’s a long line of people who should have been thrown in jail long before Kim Davis. In fact, she shouldn’t have been thrown in jail at all considering despite the gay marriage ruling the First Amendment is still the law of the land. But these other jokers have no “law of the land” to appeal to in order to justify their behavior. They’re just saying, “F*** the law of the land!” They’re just violating the law.

    So, why aren’t they in jail?

    I could go on. For instance, based upon what leftists are trying to do on college campuses, kick people out in violation of their due process rights, there’s clearly nothing in the “law of the land” known as the bill of rights that they don’t intend to violate.

    I’m all for throwing these people in jail as unlike Kim Davis they don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to justifying their refusal to obey the law and the courts.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  23. * Such as the First Amendment

    I know that word was in their. What can I say; I “upgraded” to Windows 10.

    wife, feeling frisky: I’ve been a naughty girl and I need to be punished.

    Husband: Have you been naughty, now? Yes, you do need to be punished.

    So he loaded Windows 10 on her laptop.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  24. what happens when a university strays from it’s mission,;_

    narciso (ee1f88)

  25. Thanks Gerald A.
    Following your link I found the full article gave me a link that reveals this:

    Governor Steve Beshear’s Communications Office
    Gov. Beshear’s Statement on Supreme Court Ruling on Same-Sex Marriage
    Press Release Date: Friday, June 26, 2015
    Contact Information: Kerri Richardson, Terry Sebastian, 502-564-2611

    FRANKFORT, Ky.– “The fractured laws across the country concerning same-sex marriage had created an unsustainable and unbalanced legal environment, wherein citizens were treated differently depending on the state in which they resided. That situation was unfair, no matter which side of the debate you may support.
    Kentuckians, and indeed all Americans, deserved a final determination of what the law in this country would be, and that is the reason we pursued an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. Today’s opinion finally provides that clarity.
    All Cabinets of the executive branch have been directed to immediately alter any policies necessary to implement the decision from the Supreme Court.
    Effective today, Kentucky will recognize as valid all same-sex marriages performed in other states and in Kentucky. I have instructed the Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives to provide revised marriage license forms to our county clerks for immediate use, beginning today. We will report additional expected policy changes in the coming days.”
    – Governor Steve Beshear. (Italics mine)

    The definitive coverage and discussion of this has yet to be done.

    It looks to me that where the KY gov. had the will he found a way to take upon himself the authority to change whatever needed to be changed to implement the SCOTUS ruling,
    but rather than finding a way to make a religious accommodation, he had the will to dodge, obfuscate, and stonewall the issue;
    and the fed judge, seeing that his intimidation gambit didn’t work, decided he had a way to solve the religious accommodation issue himself (or at least claim he could).

    I say 3 cheers for Ms. Davis for bringing to the attention of at least a few of us the two-faced nature of the handling of this issue, and I hope the AG who stood on the other side of this issue gets soundly hammered at the ballot box in his run for governor.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  26. Steve, the reference to Lanier may not be entirely up to date.

    Washington, D.C., has a “may issue” handgun licensing policy, meaning it is very difficult for city residents to obtain a license to carry a handgun.

    Under the restrictive D.C. handgun law, a person would need to prove a current and immediate threat to their safety and property to acquire a license to carry a handgun.

    The district has been battling in court for months to keep the law intact and in June a judge issued a stay on a lower court’s ruling that the law was unconstitutional. The city doesn’t have to issue permits during the stay and no date has been set for the next hearing in the case.

    Meaning Lanier is currently under no order, unless the appellate court has taken action in the last four weeks.

    But Alexander is not presenting a true parallel to Davis. Unless the California sheriffs have refused to issue permits after the judicial order went into effect. Alexander and her sourcelink give no indication they are doing so.

    kishnevi (31ba4e)

  27. hey, a request,
    During a previous outbreak of vulgar, vile,and disrespectful vomitus on the site by a particular poster/postor that had given one of our more cherished contributors more than enough aggravation,

    someone said they could write a program that could hide posts. this was once available but was lost in one of the “up grades”.

    was that “Tanney”? There is a desire from some to have access to such an item. for the gifted (not me), would it be “relatively easy” to make??
    thank you

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  28. the left finds every way to ignore the supreme court decision on guns, writes regulations circumventing Citizens United, of course, strikes down duly voted ballot propositions, ignores injuctions on implementations of oil moratoriums, federal funding bans to ACORN, need I go on.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  29. What I am more concerned about are those who want to meekly shut up and slink away under a rock and let the L dominate the culture to the point that most people don’t even know there are opposing viewpoints (even held by college educated professionals)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  30. Heh. I see that George Takei is now legal scholar on the Kim Daivs matter over at the Daily Beast. He is arguing Establishment Clause to prove Davis has violated the First Amendment.

    Dana (86e864)

  31. The war by the gay mafia on Christians will end with them having no allies when those guys who throw gays off buildings come to town.

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.
    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    Mike K (d45bd4)

  32. would it were they came for the trade unionists

    happyfeet (831175)

  33. so what are the odds poochie gets a speaking slot at the Republican convention

    happyfeet (831175)

  34. What are the odds happyfascist learns to be a decent human being? I expect Fauxcahontas will be president before that happens. And MD, I was thinking that little gadget you were asking about was built by Millhouse perhaps?

    John Hitchcock (e9d6ec)

  35. what are the odds Mr. Hitchcock eats the last donut

    happyfeet (831175)

  36. If only Davis were not a public official, then this talk about fascism might have more oomph. At Uncle’s, somebody asked what if the Supreme Court decisions she disagreed with were Heller and MacDonald. But how about Miranda:

    Lieutenant: Officer O’Reilly, did your read the suspect his Miranda warnings?
    O’Reilly: No, sir. I’m a good Catholic.
    Lieutenant: What? What’s that got to do with it.
    O’Reilly: Confession is the good for the soul, sir.
    Lieutenant: Tell me you didn’t use that rubber hose on him, at least.
    O’Reilly: It was his penance, sir. Better to mortify the flesh and save the soul.

    Now that’s fascism.

    nk (dbc370)

  37. it’s not the fascism what bugs me it’s how dishonest she is, dishonest deluded and narcissistic

    for a clerk to sign a marriage license has never meant they condone marriage in any way shape or form it means there’s no legal bar to that couple marrying

    that’s why they give the job to an effing clerk

    and then yesterday she pretends like “I am here before you this morning with a seemingly impossible choice”

    what choice was that?

    “My conscience or my freedom,” slurked slurkathy slurkily.

    Well since you didn’t lose your freedom babycakes you must done one hell of a number on your conscience yesterday huh.

    what a ridiculous bozo

    happyfeet (831175)

  38. slurked *slurkatha* slurkily i mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  39. But you know the two SSIs who drove up from Texas were just looking for some Section 1983 money for themselves and their ambulance chaser, right? It’s not just homophobia; it’s also that silk panties need to be worn over clean bottoms. (That’s a Greek saying meaning you have to come into equity with clean hands which is the lawyers’ metaphor.) Over-reaction breeds over-reaction.

    nk (dbc370)

  40. i deplore these greedy “disabled” people

    happyfeet (831175)

  41. It is unpleasant to have to deal with hf’s disgusting disrespectful diatribes when he starts “jamming” the thread. (I don’t have time to look up the link at the moment, I need to bookmark it).
    Being in disagreement is fine, being insulting about it, not so fine, but he can do and we can think he is an a** if he does, but some of us will not allow him to drown out logical discussion with his polluting logically baseless ad hominum attacks.

    And I think Milhouse was someone knowledgeable about the original software that doesn’t work anymore.
    There is someone else who is a computer genius who said he could do a new one.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  42. An OT question if anyone wants to write a new post or update an old one.
    I recently had an email alert from some group that said to the effect “We now know that the Repub leadership conspired to allow the dems to approve Obama’s deal with Iran”.
    It doesn’t say how we “know” that or who all was in on it.

    It never made sense to me why anyone thought turning the treaty approval process on it’s head was a good idea, and I never figured out if it was just really dumb or a purposeful manipulation to allow a sellout but “save face” (Which isn’t working).

    From what I know, I like the idea of protest saying the conditions of the Corker bill haven’t been met because the Senate hasn’t even seen the side agreements to know what they are approving or disapproving of.

    Were all of the repubs except Cotton in on it, were they all being bullied/blackmailed, or what??

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  43. MD,

    What we know about the GOP, Obama and Iran.

    As for hf, the only way to turn him off is for everyone to leave. Last one out should turn off the light.

    DRJ (521990)

  44. Oh my gosh. Take whatever number of comments happyfeet makes and then multiply it by 4 – 8 for every commenter that makes an equal number of comments complaining about how distasteful they find his speech to be. Just get over it already.

    Leviticus (56f588)

  45. It’s a bunch of words on a screen, written by a complete stranger. It does not implicate anyone. If you don’t like it, ignore it.

    Leviticus (56f588)

  46. Ted Cruz also wanted to use the Corker bill to stop the Iran deal.

    DRJ (521990)

  47. The problem is the leeway the original Iran sanctions bill gave the President. The executive memorandum won’t have the full force of a treaty but it’s good enough for Iran’s purposes. Congress cannot take it away that executive discretion except with a new bill that Obama will veto. So Congress is floundering. They’re over a barrel because of the weak first sanctions bill they passed and trying to save face.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. And that is the charitable explanation. You can wonder how come so many of these mopes retire from Congress multimillionaires with six-figure salaries in lobbying firms and corporate boards on your own. There’s a lot of money to be made from this Iran deal.

    nk (dbc370)

  49. rest easy young whelp
    your kind Robot Overlord
    has a Lawyer Zoo

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  50. the left are the only ones permitted conscience,;

    narciso (ee1f88)

  51. 29. What I am more concerned about are those who want to meekly shut up and slink away under a rock and let the L dominate the culture to the point that most people don’t even know there are opposing viewpoints (even held by college educated professionals)

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 9/14/2015 @ 8:23 pm

    There are far too many, Doc, who will meekly shut-up and not slink away. But instead will go along to get along. I give you ADM RDML P. DeQuattro, USCG.

    All Emphases are CDR Salamander’s.

    Thursday, September 03, 2015
    Diversity Thursday

    The language Stalinists are about to complete their takeover of the USCG; the politics of micro-aggressions has arrived. The diktat of the Gender Studies Department has become policy.

    The full implemention of the Cultural Marxist ethos will march forward until both leaders and the mass of people actively and passively reject their agenda.

    R 212352Z AUG 15
    UNCLAS //N05351//

    …3. Action: From their analysis of the LDCS results, the TLDAC identified the following actions to improve the work climate related to the four areas:
    A. Organizational Trust.
    LDAC Issue: Many diversity issues appear to be linked to leaders not modeling inclusive behaviors or unknowingly acting in ways that promote disrespect or bias toward certain groups (also known
    as micro-biases or micro-aggressions).

    Action 1: TLDAC members will research and author articles on leadership, diversity and inclusion in the Coast Guard that can help leaders at every level understand behaviors that could be perceived negatively by various groups.
    Action 2: All units with LDACs are reminded, as per Ref D, to conduct training on this topic for their unit before 30 September 2015. For additional information, the following website has information on completing the training:

    Completion will be reported in the OCT 2015 LDAC Quarterly report by the unit LDAC Chairs. In addition, commands are encouraged to discuss these micro-biases or micro-aggressions during their Special Emphasis Program education events.
    B. Gender.
    LDAC Issue: Women are not proportionally represented in afloat billets. Given the requirement for afloat time to advance, this is negatively impacting the careers of women in the Coast Guard. Many members believe there are deliberate barriers to women going afloat.

    …C. LGBT.
    LDAC Issue: There are significant misunderstandings or lack of information regarding programs or benefits available to LGBT members.
    Action 1: Develop a consolidated list of CG policy and guidance on LGBT entitlements and specific concerns.
    Action 2: In coordination with CG-1, identify barriers, benefits and draw backs in, a policy allowing LGBT members to state a preference to not transfer to states with restrictive laws regarding the LGBT community. This evolving policy or guidance will need to balance the need to develop members and needs of the service while protecting individual rights.

    To go the long way around the barn, this is one reason why I was against gays in the military, Doc. Note that last item. There are just some parts of the country that are unworthy of serving. And what parts of the country are they? The parts of the country that refused to “evolve” like Barack Obama. Which brings us to security risks. It’s a little known fact but the Soviet bloc did not target homosexuals because they could be blackmailed.

    They targeted homosexuals because if they looked hard enough they’d fine people who didn’t have to be blackmailed. It was a rich vein of potential spy recruits to mine as some would willingly betray the country. They hated American bourgeois society, its institutions, and its values just as much as the communists. Bradley Manning is a case in point, nobody had to blackmail him into spying, nobody could stop him from betraying the country. But there are numerous other examples.

    The Soviet bloc intelligence services were kind of amazed that gays would work for them considering in the USSR and the Eastern bloc homosexuality was a crime which called for years of imprisonment. But then as now their anger was always directed inward. It doesn’t matter if Hamas is throwing gays off of buildings, LGBT pressure groups are overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel. Red states have Religious Freedom Restoration Acts, which means those states protect Xtofascist hate speech and hate thought as expressed by Kim Davis. So that means Kentucky is worse than Gaza, and you just can’t assign an LGBT coastie to recruiting duty in Louisville.

    (No, I’m not saying that gays were the only group suspected of having a vulnerability or built in grievance against the US, or that every gay would become a turncoat, but no one is clamoring to open the service to other categories of people barred from enlisting such as those deemed to have excessive debt even though clearly not all of them would betray the country for a wad of cash, either.)

    And now in the USCG that is, as Sal observes, not just the type of fiction that the LGBT Studies Dept. at Oberlin College peddles in, but it’s policy. Everybody will have to be indoctrinated that certain parts of the country are backwards fundamentalist h3llholes. And naturally straight white males (the vast majority of every single armed force) from those parts of the country are suspect of carrying the virus. So be on the lookout for micro-biases from them.

    Actually, straight white males from anywhere are to be suspected of thoughtcrime. That’s policy, too.

    Criticism of DEOMI last October involved a lesson on Power and Privilege, chapter EOAC-3000 of the Equal Opportunity Advisor Course student guide. The chapter emphasizes how “power and privilege can sometimes create exclusive work environments at the expense of others” and introduces students to the concept of white privilege. Two themes of that chapter deserve scrutiny. The first is that white males gain privileges and success through “unearned advantage.” The second is the assumption that “racism is everywhere.”

    DEOMI defines white privilege as “the package of unearned advantages granted to those members of a diverse society with white skin.” Discussion of the concept explains that whites today benefit unfairly from historical institutional racism. By logical extension, that argument means whites—the text emphasizes white men—who achieve some level of status do so unfairly, suggesting their accomplishments are undeserved.

    According to DEOMI, regardless of their socioeconomic starting point, intellectual capacity, or other factors affecting professional success, individual members of this group did not earn anything because they were unfairly advantaged by factors outside their control…

    The whole point of the gender and ethnic grievance studies departments is to perpetually invent new grievances to maintain the fiction that America is irredeemably white male heteronormative and patriarchal. That our entire political and economic systems are designed to privilege patriarchal white male heterosexuals, and this country needs to tear down everything and start over.

    The message really goes over when you have captive audiences. And there are two places that meet that requirement. Schools, K – college, and the military. There people do have to shut up because you do not have First Amendment rights. So it’s a big risk. Do you speak up and give up your education or your career, or do you remain silent? In the military it is even worse, as to advance you can’t simply remain silent. You have to preach the new state religion of diversity, privilege, and micro-bias.

    So, yes, I too am more concerned about those who meekly shut up. But I recognize the huge risk people take if they do take a stand. There’s no such thing as a religious or conscience accommodation in the military, which here would mean saying something like, “If LGBT members can’t serve in every state in the union then they shouldn’t be in the Coast Guard.” Speak up, and your career is over. That’s why most officers and senior enlisted did not take the “gays in the military” survey, the results of which the Obama administration widely touted as “proof” that servicemembers thought it was no big deal. Not at all; it’s just that since they were assigned user IDs and passwords those surveys were not anonymous. To answer the questions was to flag yourself for reeducation/elimination.

    True, some poor deluded souls did think gays in the military would be no big deal. To the few of them that I knew I simply said just wait until you have your own LGBT political commissar. You’ll learn. And here they are, looking for those micro-biases and micro-aggressions that indicate disloyalty to the program.

    It isn’t easy to speak up.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  52. Leviticus,

    happyfeet talks tough when he can get away with it but he backs down when he’s confronted, which makes him the perfect example of both a bully and a coward. Bullies crave attention but we can’t ignore internet bullies because their comments are there whether we like them or not. Ignoring their statements only makes them more powerful because they go unchallenged — and that’s what bullies want, isn’t it?

    DRJ (521990)

  53. If Kimmie were seeking ‘martyrdom’ she would resign her position, as it put her at cross-position with her faith. Then she could rightly claim that she chose faith over material things. But she has not done that, she has sought, and maybe achieved, some kind of compromise instead. So did she compromise her faith or access to material things. I’m thinking she doesn’t want to lose the $$.

    Re. hf: so all these champions of the First Amendment, parts of it anyway, want to silence what may be a different viewpoint?? Interesting.

    Gramps, the original (bc022b)

  54. i don’t understand the question

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  55. oh i get it now

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  56. people are also totally and willfully overlooking the grotesque nepotism involved in this situation as well and completely ignoring what it says about kimmy d’s character and hypertrophied sense of entitlement i think

    she really thinks this is HER office

    truly just as execrable an exemplar of a “public servant” as you could ever hope to find i think

    but above all else failmericans love their identity politics anymore, and kimmypooch fits the bill this month

    it got hot here in Chicago just out of the blue

    but at least it’s not humid

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  57. 55. If Kimmie were seeking ‘martyrdom’ she would resign her position, as it put her at cross-position with her faith. Then she could rightly claim that she chose faith over material things. But she has not done that, she has sought, and maybe achieved, some kind of compromise instead. So did she compromise her faith or access to material things. I’m thinking she doesn’t want to lose the $$.

    Gramps, the original (bc022b) — 9/15/2015 @ 10:31 am

    So, Christians should just concede that they are now second class citizens? That now thanks to the SCOTUS there is a religious litmus test for office, and that is legitimate?

    Illinois Pharmacists Defy Order to Fill Plan B Prescriptions
    Blagojevich drug rule is questioned

    By Maria Baran, Belleville New Democrat (Belleville, Illinois), December 2, 2005

    Southern Illinois lawmakers question the merit of Gov. Rod Blagojevich’s order that pharmacists cannot refuse to dispense the morning-after pill.

    State Rep. Ron Stephens, R-Greenville, disagreed with the state rule imposed by the governor that led to a Walgreens Co. policy and the dismissal of four metro-east pharmacists.

    “His executive order was out of place because if he wants to bring it before the public, he should have brought it in front of the legislature,” said Stephens, a pharmacist for 30 years who is a partial owner of Prescriptions Plus in Troy and New Baden.

    The Walgreens pharmacists were put on an unpaid leave Monday for declining on conscientious grounds to agree to a store policy to dispense the Plan B prescription, commonly called the morning-after pill.

    Stephens called it a “rather Draconian measure” to take away jobs for religious beliefs.

    Pharmacists in Illinois have won a final victory in a seven-year legal battle in which they have fought for the right not to have to dispense the Plan B drug, which may cause abortions in some instances.

    After more than seven years of litigation, an Illinois appellate court agreed in September that the state cannot force them to sell abortion-inducing drugs in violation of their religious views. The court ruled former Governor Rod Blagojevich’s April 2005 mandate that all pharmacies and pharmacists sell Plan B (the “morning after pill”) is invalid. Blagojevich argued that pharmacy owners and pharmacists with religious objections should “find another profession” if they did not share his moral views about the drug…

    I guess these pharmacists and pharmacies should have just quit, too, huh? Note the Blagojevich quote. The whole point of this rule, and a similar pharmacy rule in Washington state, was to make people either violate their conscience or quit. I guess you’re on the same side as Blagojevich.

    I’m not going to accept the notion that if I’m going to live by my faith, in addition to elected office, the military, government jobs, and health care (Nancy Pelosi is on record as saying if you’re Christian you shouldn’t be in health care; stand by for declaring that health care professionals must provide abortion or euthanasia assistance or find another job as it has happened elsewhere) there are a host of other jobs that are closed to me.

    Sorry, gramps, I just don’t have that much quit in me.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  58. But she has not done that, she has sought, and maybe achieved, some kind of compromise instead. So did she compromise her faith or access to material things. I’m thinking she doesn’t want to lose the $$.

    You are 180dg wrong, Gramps, about what faith requires.

    5. It is surely undeniable that, when a man engages in remunerative labor, the impelling reason and motive of his work is to obtain property, and thereafter to hold it as his very own. If one man hires out to another his strength or skill, he does so for the purpose of receiving in return what is necessary for the satisfaction of his needs; he therefore expressly intends to acquire a right full and real, not only to the remuneration, but also to the disposal of such remuneration, just as he pleases. Thus, if he lives sparingly, saves money, and, for greater security, invests his savings in land, the land, in such case, is only his wages under another form; and, consequently, a working man’s little estate thus purchased should be as completely at his full disposal as are the wages he receives for his labor. But it is precisely in such power of disposal that ownership obtains, whether the property consist of land or chattels. Socialists, therefore, by endeavoring to transfer the possessions of individuals to the community at large, strike at the interests of every wage-earner, since they would deprive him of the liberty of disposing of his wages, and thereby of all hope and possibility of increasing his resources and of bettering his condition in life.

    6. What is of far greater moment, however, is the fact that the remedy they propose is manifestly against justice. For, every man has by nature the right to possess property as his own. This is one of the chief points of distinction between man and the animal creation, for the brute has no power of self direction, but is governed by two main instincts, which keep his powers on the alert, impel him to develop them in a fitting manner, and stimulate and determine him to action without any power of choice. One of these instincts is self preservation, the other the propagation of the species. Both can attain their purpose by means of things which lie within range; beyond their verge the brute creation cannot go, for they are moved to action by their senses only, and in the special direction which these suggest. But with man it is wholly different. He possesses, on the one hand, the full perfection of the animal being, and hence enjoys at least as much as the rest of the animal kind, the fruition of things material. But animal nature, however perfect, is far from representing the human being in its completeness, and is in truth but humanity’s humble handmaid, made to serve and to obey. It is the mind, or reason, which is the predominant element in us who are human creatures; it is this which renders a human being human, and distinguishes him essentially from the brute. And on this very account – that man alone among the animal creation is endowed with reason – it must be within his right to possess things not merely for temporary and momentary use, as other living things do, but to have and to hold them in stable and permanent possession; he must have not only things that perish in the use, but those also which, though they have been reduced into use, continue for further use in after time.

    The remedy you propose, Gramps, is also manifestly against justice.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  59. and Leo was much like the current pope, although much more to the point, socialism is feudalism, the nature of the new peasants were those who held title in the old order,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  60. When this entire controversy caught fire, I asked several people what the endgame was supposed to look like. Since Davis refused to resign, she either was going to stay in jail, constantly be released and return when she refused to perform her duties, or go return to her post in either partial victory or complete defeat:

    The best case scenario for her is that perhaps she will be able to do her job (and collect her state employee pension) without anybody having evidence a century later because her moniker is missing from the documents. It would be a grievous error to make her the face of resistance to judicial tyranny when so many more people are deserving, and, frankly, sane.

    Conservative writer Rod Dreher also wanted to know how this was supposed to have a happy ending, and pretty much spoke for me when he wrote (bold mine):

    What, exactly, does Kim Davis hope to accomplish with her defiance? Does she think that the Supreme Court is going to overturn its own ruling? That she will inspire a movement that will eventually have that result? Does she think that same-sex marriage is such a grave crisis that it’s worth defying the Supreme Court (which is to say, the Constitutionally legitimate authority here)?…

    …Kim Davis is a bad martyr for the cause of religious liberty, and we conservative Christians will come to regret her stance. But here we are, and there are some very loud, very sincere voices cheering her on, just to stick it to the Man. They don’t have an end game, and don’t care.

    You know what this thing reminds me of? The way Michael Brown, the “gentle giant” shot to death in Ferguson became a martyr for the cultural left and the #BlackLivesMatter movement. When a Justice Department investigation found that the officer who killed him had acted prudently, and that Brown was actually a thug, none of that mattered. Brown may have been, in the end, an unsympathetic figure, hardly a martyr to police brutality and racism, but his existence was too convenient to a huge number of angry people who had broader grievances — some legitimate, some not — and needed a totem to rally around.

    Kim Davis is the Michael Brown of the Religious Right. Don’t underestimate the political potency of that. You watch, this is not going to end well for religious liberty in America.

    This was a dead end situation from the very beginning. I believe, when all is said and done, Ted Cruz will be glad that a Huckabee goon prevented him from joining Davis as “Eye Of The Tiger” blasted from the speakers.

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1)

  61. Actually no, and dreher wants is to retreat from the world into sanctuaries, where is the point in that.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  62. The fact pattern is quite opposite, however Bunning and breshear, do play the part of Bondi and Scott.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  63. As said by perhaps one of the last intellectually honest and thoughtful dems, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts,
    regarding Davis and any one of innumerable things, I suppose,
    we often fall into the trap of pontificating without knowledge…

    The facts as I can discern include the Dem. AG of KY refusing to do his job and defend a marriage amendment that was approved by 75% of the KY voters.
    For this refusal to fulfill the obligations of his office, he was given a pass by the Gov. and the state had to pay a private attorney to do what was his job.
    It seems clear that lawlessness is rewarded when it is on one side of the issue, and simple, legal reasonable accommodations without cost are denied in KY, even though such accommodations were already instituted elsewhere.

    If “this is not going to end well for religious liberty in America”, it is not because of this case, but rather reflected by this case.

    Never heard of Rod Dreher before, and his comparing Davis with Brown is absurd and obscene.

    It is true that political thinkers cannot depend on many people who hold to the historic apostolic Christian faith to agree to their political calculations and expediency. As far as I can tell there is nothing virtuous in being “inexpedient” just for the sake of being so, but there certainly is no virtue in making expediency a primary goal.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  64. As said by perhaps one of the last intellectually honest and thoughtful dems, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts,
    regarding Davis and any one of innumerable things, I suppose, we often fall into the trap of pontificating without knowledge…

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 9/15/2015 @ 5:26 pm

    I welcome your detailing of errors of fact — not opinion — in my comment.

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1)

  65. Where is the error, if they can hail an official who has had a nearly permanent presence for thought crime, what hope have we.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  66. L.N., I was not accusing you of errors of fact, though I see how it could appear that way.
    I was reacting to Mr. Dreher, and so many others, making dogmatic statements of disapproval without engaging the larger context. My charge was not so much that he was asserting wrong facts, but that his analysis was based on terribly incomplete facts.
    He made a rather expansive claim of the importance of this case in a negative light.
    Fine. My point was that he should broaden the scope of his investigation while he was at it.

    This is not a hill I would have chosen to stand and die on, but sometimes you have to play the hand that you were given. She did, she has legitimate grievances which have been denied in a prejudicial manner, and I hope that 75% of the KY electorate that was disenfranchised by their own AG remembers this very well when he tries to get elected as gov in a few months.
    All else aside, while most of the public was relatively silent at having their will overturned by SCOTUS, they were not expecting people forced out of government office over it.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  67. DRJ (521990) — 9/15/2015 @ 6:33 am

    thanks, DRJ, but my (older) computer gags on breitbart. Too much going on. I end up getting into task manager to kill the browser.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  68. 62. When this entire controversy caught fire, I asked several people what the endgame was supposed to look like. Since Davis refused to resign, she either was going to stay in jail, constantly be released and return when she refused to perform her duties, or go return to her post in either partial victory or complete defeat:

    …Kim Davis is the Michael Brown of the Religious Right. Don’t underestimate the political potency of that. You watch, this is not going to end well for religious liberty in America.

    This was a dead end situation from the very beginning…

    L.N. Smithee (e750c1) — 9/15/2015 @ 3:55 pm

    It may well be. Just as it may well be a dead end situation for the Little Sisters of the Poor. What are you going to tell them if they lose in court? Continue your 200 year old ministry to the sick and aged and go ahead and provide contraceptives and abortifacients and suffer the consequence of latae sententiae excommunication? Or stop your work and leave the country?

    Speaking of which, I mentioned the Illinois pharmacy case earlier. There has been a very bad development in the Washington pharmacy case.

    Court Rejects Pharmacists’ Right of Conscience

    Ninth Circuit rules that family-owned pharmacy must violate their faith

    “Today’s decision is unfortunate,” said Luke Goodrich, Deputy General Counsel of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. “The government has no business punishing citizens solely because of their religious beliefs. The pharmacists in this case willingly refer patients to over 30 pharmacies that stock the morning-after pill within a five mile radius, and no patient has ever been denied timely access to any drug. The pharmacists’ practices are also supported by the American Pharmacists Association and are legal in every other state.”

    The court’s opinion, written by Judge Susan P. Graber, acknowledges that “pharmacies whose owners object to the distribution of emergency contraception for religious reasons may be burdened disproportionately” by the state’s rules. It also acknowledges that the plaintiffs “ha[ve] been implicated in a disproportionate percentage of [the State’s] investigations,” and that there may be “other means that might achieve the [State’s] purpose” without burdening the plaintiffs. Nevertheless, the court rejected the plaintiffs’ claims because it “conclude[d] that the rules are neutral and generally applicable and that the rules rationally further the State’s interest in patient safety.”

    Margo Thelen, Rhonda Mesler, and the Stormans family have worked in the pharmacy profession for over sixty years. Because they believe that life begins at the moment of fertilization, they do not sell the morning-after or week-after contraception pills. Instead, they willingly refer customers to one of over thirty pharmacies that sell the drugs within five miles of their store. For decades, this has been standard pharmacy practice, has been approved by the American Pharmacists Association, and has been legal in all 50 states.

    But in 2005, the State of Washington passed a new regulation requiring pharmacies to sell these drugs in violation of their faith. The regulation allows pharmacies to refer patients elsewhere for a wide variety of business, economic, and convenience reasons—such as a when a drug is unprofitable, attracts an undesirable clientele, or falls outside the pharmacy’s chosen business niche. But it makes it illegal to refer patients for reasons of conscience…

    This is not, as this this three judge panel from the Ninth Circus inanely posits, a neutral standard. You can read the original district court opinion here.

    The record that Judge Leighton relied upon makes it abundantly clear that a rabid Democratic governor teamed with Planned Parenthood and the Northwest Women’s Law Center looked for a way to stamp out the right to refuse for reasons of conscience. When the Pharmacy Board balked at doing so, the Governor threatened to replace them all if they refused to rewrite the rule to deny pharmacists the right of conscience.

    So these people weren’t shouting into TV microphones like former Illinois Governor/Federal inmate Blagojevich saying Christians who intend to live by their conscience “find another profession,” but that’s exactly what they were saying in their internal communications.

    …The events leading to promulgation began in 2005, when Planned Parenthood
    and the Northwest Women’s Law Center contacted Christina Hulet, Senior Health Policy
    Advisor to the Governor, who began meeting with the groups. Ms. Hulet then referred the
    groups to Steven Saxe, the Pharmacy Board’s Executive Director, and in doing so, informed Mr.
    Saxe that Northwest Women’s Law Center was “looking into the issue of a pharmacist’s right to
    refuse to fill a prescription for moral/religious views” and that the groups “[were] considering
    pushing for national or state legislation on the issue.” Pl.’s Ex. 13. That cause—barring a
    pharmacist’s right of conscience—played a decisive role in the Board’s rulemaking. Indeed,
    Plaintiffs have presented reams of emails, memoranda, and letters between the Governor’s
    representatives, Pharmacy Board members, and advocacy groups demonstrating that the
    predominant purpose of the rule was to stamp out the right to refuse…

    It’s a very sordid tale, but it’s not surprising the three judge panel from the 9th Circus did this. In 2007 Judge Leighton decided that the rule was unconstitutional, and the 9th Circus overruled him and sent the case back. In 2012 Judge Leighton again found the rule unconstitutional.

    The 9th Circus’ ruling is, of course ridiculous for a host of reasons. Yes, this will not end well for religious liberty if this ruling stands.

    But it isn’t Kim Davis’ fault if the issue of religious liberty is a dead end. SSM and these abortifacient rules (no doubt soon to include abortion itself and euthanasia) are designed to make insistence on one’s First Amendment right of free exercise of religion a dead end.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  69. I meant to say I believe the Little Sisters of the Poor may well choose the same route as Kim Davis and simply defy the law. To continue their religious calling and to keep getting thrown in jail, then released, then repeat the cycle.

    Just like in Cuba.

    And it won’t end in their complete defeat.

    Steve57 (a07e69)

  70. A previously unmentioned thought came to mind,

    For the people who are against Davis because of the “we need to be a nation of laws” argument,
    it must be remembered that according to Adams, our government and our laws are not adequate for self governance unless we are an adequately virtuous people.
    The only way to keep order in an unruly society is with force.

    The rule breakers have taken over (Holder, Obama, Dem AG’s, etc.), there is no force to stand against them.
    And because fundamental values such as honesty are now so low in society, it doesn’t matter.

    Davis is the last horse in the barn, at worst. A little late to make a fuss.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  71. she could not have more decisively lost the battle for public opinion here

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  72. SHE DIDN’T HAVE MUCH TO SPARE TO START WITH: Kim Davis loses her appeal

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  73. The Pope met with Kim Davis:

    On Thursday, September 24, in the afternoon after his historic address to Congress, just a few minutes before flying to New York City, Pope Francis received, spoke with, and embraced Kim Davis — the Kentucky County Clerk who was jailed in early September for refusing to sign the marriage licenses of homosexual couples who wished to have their civil marriages certified by the state of Kentucky.

    more here

    felipe (56556d)

  74. he’s such a loser

    happyfeet (b43ad6)

  75. felipe, he’s staying the course on the moral issues. Even if he is a little hard-hearted about Rush Limbaugh’s tax rate.

    nk (dbc370)

  76. Thanks for the info, felipe.

    one of my sons and his wife live downtown within the security zone. it was quite the production over multiple days

    I must say, though, that I don’t get how a leader of a Christian church prays on national/international TV to Mary and Joseph but not Jesus. Seems to me there is a lot in Hebrews (and elsewhere) that we have confidence to approach God’s throne through the work of Jesus.
    Not trying to pick a fight, just offering a thought of something that doesn’t make sense to us non-Catholics.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  77. I know you are not trying to pick a fight, so no worries. I am astonished that The Pope’s many prayers to Jesus, (the Holy Mass, for one example) is completely invisible to so many (you are not alone by any means!) in the Christian community. The entire Mass (which is latria)is directed to, and centered on Jesus, our Savior. But for some reason, the only prayer that stands out (for many) is the brief moment of hyper-dulia(as opposed to latria) offered to The Divine Son’s mother.

    I hope that clears things up, doc.

    felipe (56556d)

  78. OMG! That link goes to a pay-wall for some reason. Sorry.

    Definition of LATRIA

    Roman Catholicism
    : the supreme homage that is given to God alone —distinguished from dulia and hyperdulia

    felipe (56556d)

  79. Well, thanks felipe for the response
    all i can say is I only tuned in on the end as he was giving his closing prayer and benediction on saturday night

    I must say, i like the apostle paul’s approach to “preach nothing except Christ crucified”,
    certainly many Christian churches that are not Catholic have a lot of shortcomings in that regard as well.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  80. The prayer to the Virgin is for intercession. The Mass is the celebration of the Body and Blood of Christ given for our salvation. Worship is to the Father, the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. The Virgin is revered in these terms: “It is meet indeed to bless Thee, the ever-blessed and most pure and Mother of our God. Thee that art more honourable than the Cherubim, and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim, who without spot of sin didst bear God the Word; Thee, verily the Mother of God, we magnify”.

    nk (dbc370)

  81. I must say, i like the apostle paul’s approach to “preach nothing except Christ crucified”,

    I do too. That is exactly what the Holy Mass is about and why Catholics are all about Crucifixes. Here is something strange, mysterious, and wonderful, as well as terrifying:

    The Holy Mass joins all the faithful, across time and space, to Calvary and The one Crucifixion of Our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Who died, Once, for all.

    felipe (56556d)

  82. Quite right, nk. I did not mean to leave out the other two Persons of the Trinity.

    felipe (56556d)

  83. I was not criticizing you, felipe, just delineating between worship and veneration.

    nk (dbc370)

  84. The liturgy, when heard, sometimes goes by so quickly that it is easy to miss the breathtaking beauty that is hard to miss when you read it.

    thanks, nk.

    felipe (56556d)

  85. No worries, I knew that.

    felipe (56556d)

  86. I guess I’m one of those people who don’t like liturgy for that reason, my mouth can say things without engaging my brain.
    I actually often do not even sing favorite hymns/songs, something about my brain being engaged in something already known by wrote prevents conscious thought,
    so I usually listen to songs/hymns and consciously pray in direction inspired by the songs.

    And I am certain that even “non-liturgical” churches get into a “rut” where they are doing things by wrote as well, they just don’t recognize it.

    That said, John Michael Talbot’s The Lord’s Supper is wonderful.

    I must admit, I do not like crucifixes. Christ died once for all. It happened, He is no longer on the cross.
    But I admit the images of the crucifix and some of the blasphemous images of Santaria overlap in my mind, but I guess that is my own problem from my own experience, having walked by botanicas with such items in their display.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  87. Prayer is also a form of meditation. To achieve an altered state of consciousness. And many things can be used to focus it. The words, silent or spoken, prose or poetry. Images. Singing. Bodily posture from kneeling to dancing. Scents (the candle and the incense). The participation of, and coordination with, other people. And, of course, a guide or guides.

    The only thing I know about Santeria is that the god Chango of the Congo’s good aspect is Saint Barbara and my source could be false. The singing and dancing (sometimes to orgiastic levels) as prayer that I am more familiar with is in some Christian Baptist(charismatic?) services.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. you’re correct, it’s also sometimes twinned with St, Jerome, (that I didn’t know)

    narciso (ee1f88)

  89. @nk, felipe, MD in Philly:

    The real fun is working up hatred between those who say “mass” and those who say “holy communion” when neither party could possibly state the difference between, say, Hooker’s doctrine and Thomas Aquinas’, in any form which would hold water for five minutes.

    And all the purely indifferent things-candles and clothes and what not-are an admirable ground for our activities. We have quite removed from men’s minds what that pestilent fellow Paul used to teach about food and other unessentials-namely, that the human without scruples should always give in to the human with scruples.

    You would think they could not fail to see the application. You would expect to find the “low” churchman genuflecting and crossing himself lest the weak conscience of his “high” brother should be moved to irreverence, and the “high” one refraining from these exercises lest he should betray his “low” brother into idolatry. And so it would have been but for our ceaseless labour. Without that the variety of usage within the Church might have become a positive hotbed of charity and humility.

    Screwtape (2ca835)

  90. sometimes the trappings obscure the message, like when Jesus healed the sick, in Capernaeum, (sic) he stopped and went to meditate, the apostles asked him to come back, but he was on to another place,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  91. Where did C.S. Lewis learn how demons think?

    That is the value of the “trappings”. They are the hallmarks of the true faith. To protect from counterfeits — false teachers and false teachings.

    nk (dbc370)

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