Patterico's Pontifications

8/13/2015

Carly Fiorina: When In Doubt, It Must Always Be The Parent’s Choice

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:46 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Carly Fiorina made a stand for parental and religious rights when discussing vaccinations tonight at a town hall meeting after a mother of five told her that she had not vaccinated her children for religious reasons:

GOP presidential hopeful Carly Fiorina said Thursday that parents should not be forced to vaccinate their children against diseases like measles and mumps, although she added that public school systems can forbid unvaccinated children from attending.

“When in doubt, it is always the parent’s choice,” Fiorina said during a town hall in an agricultural building in rural Iowa on Thursday evening. “When in doubt, it must always be the parent’s choice.”

“We must protect religious liberty and someone’s ability to practice their religion,” said Fiorina, receiving a round of applause. “We must devote energy and resources to doing so. Period.”

Fiorina later expanded on her comments:

“When you have highly communicable diseases where we have a vaccine that’s proven, like measles or mumps, then I think a parent can make that choice — but then I think a school district is well within their rights to say: ‘I’m sorry, your child cannot then attend public school.’ So a parent has to make that trade-off.”

Fiorina said that when it comes to “these more esoteric immunizations” for diseases that are not contagious or communicable, school districts should not be allowed to mandate that children receive the vaccination.

During an interview earlier this year, Fiorina was asked about vaccinations:

Asked whether a recent measles outbreak that has spread across 14 states signals further proof that children need to be vaccinated, Fiorina said, “I think parents have to make choices for their family and their children.”

But Fiorina, the former CEO of Hewlett-Packard who is considering a 2016 presidential bid, added, “I think there’s a big difference between — just in terms of the mountains of evidence we have — a vaccination for measles and a vaccination when a girl is 10 or 11 or 12 for cervical cancer just in case she’s sexually active at 11. So, I think it’s hard to make a blanket statement about it. I certainly can understand a mother’s concerns about vaccinating a 10-year-old.” “I think vaccinating for measles makes a lot of sense. But that’s me. I do think parents have to make those choices. I mean, I got measles as a kid. We used to all get measles… I got chicken pox, I got measles, I got mumps.”

–Dana

99 Responses to “Carly Fiorina: When In Doubt, It Must Always Be The Parent’s Choice”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. I am so digging Carly.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  3. Wait for tomorrow’s cries of anti-vaxxer, anti-science Fiorina!

    Dana (86e864)

  4. I remember the furor in 2008 when a woman with two autistic children brought up vaccines with John McCain at a town hall. He was decried for believing that vaccines cause autism.

    But Obama had said pretty much the same thing.

    What is a politician supposed to say to a person in that circumstance?

    This business is more “gotcha” journalism, and prepping battlespace. Fiorina MUST be silenced because she fights. The MSM is all in on that topic. Sadly.

    Simon Jester (1dbc24)

  5. Sometimes science is always right, re: Global warming. Sometimes it is always wrong, re: vaccinations.

    Vague scientific models seem to be the fashion. Actual results are suspect.

    Being a liberal is a tough job. Someone has to do it, though.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  6. I think Democrats are appalled when parental rights or religious rights are elevated above what they see as the supreme rights of government which are, of course, only exercised for our betterment…

    Dana (86e864)

  7. It takes a village, Dana. One populated by bureaucrats, who live far, far away, and know better than we do.

    Simon Jester (1dbc24)

  8. what a crappy mother though

    happyfeet (5546fb)

  9. What is a politician supposed to say to a person in that circumstance?

    I think Carly has it about right: It’s your choice not to vaccinate your kids, but you can expect a lifetime of ostracization for making that choice. And if you fail to vaccinate and your kid gets measles which ends up turning into a lifetime of SSPE, it will be on you to explain to them why you made that choice on their behalf.

    JVW (ba78f9)

  10. Wedge-Tailed Eagle takes down a Drone

    Likewise the American Bird Conservancy takes down the Obama admin on the 30 year “Eagle Take” rule for wind farms (allowing wind mill merchants to legally kill eagles with their bird choppers)

    There once was a chance that Fiorina could have helped us keep those wind farms from being built in the first place, but she blew it. Cap and Trade Carly.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  11. Sure, and it is the school systems duty to protect the other children from the consequences of idiotic parenting.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  12. Do parents have the right to choose homeopathy for their infant’s pneumonia?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  13. Are vaccination policies for children in public schools more finicky today than they were over 40 to 60 years ago?

    Whatever the case, the policies for controlling the influx of largely impoverished (and “undocumented”) people, some with contagious diseases, from countries like Mexico sure as hell are a lot more permissive and lenient today than they were 40 to 60 years ago.

    Mark (9abec5)

  14. My darling bride (of 36 years, 2 months and 26 days) was sitting beside me on the couch whilst I was putting on my boots this morning, and CNN was on the television. Carly Fiorina was shown, and it was the vaccination comment, at which point she said, “She’s stupid!” Mrs Pico is a pediatric RN.

    I pointed out the subtitle, which mentioned that Mrs Fiorina noted that school systems could deny entrance to unvaccinated children. That didn’t impress my bride in the slightest.

    I agree that not getting your children vaccinated is stupid, but I also agree that people have the freedom to be stupid. My wife still wasn’t impressed.

    The Dana who was watching CNN with his wife this morning (f6a568)

  15. Explain to your bride that if her kid is vaccinated and mine isn’t how does that affect her? Her kid is vaccinated, he can’t catch whatever she’s worried about. The only kids who can are the ones whose parents didn’t want a vaccination.

    Next schools will be demanding “implants” for “the children” and parents will be up in arms because a neighbor does not want his kid on a government GPS even though if he’s stolen by the boogie man he may not be found.

    Hoagie (f4eb27)

  16. BTW, the pediatric RN’s may just have endorsed Bernie Sanders. I’m hearing some nurses organizations are. So forcing parents against their will to vaccinate their kids by order of the government run indoctrination camps may be just what the doctor ordered. ( pun intended )

    Hoagie (f4eb27)

  17. The more people we have who refuse vaccinations, the fewer people we will eventually have who refuse vaccinations.

    The eugenicist nk (dbc370)

  18. Who gives a hoot about measles, chickenpox and mumps? But if you don’t vaccinate your kids against tetanus, diphtheria and polio, you are a potential murderer in my opinion.

    The sensible nk (dbc370)

  19. I had the mumps as a toddler, but I had the measles and chickenpox at age 12. They were not fun, especially the chickenpox. I’m glad my daughter was spared.

    The kind parent nk (dbc370)

  20. I address this so much that I will sound like a broken record, but I have immune-compromised kids who can’t be vaccinated because their immune systems don’t respond appropriately to vaccinations. As a result, the only way my kids are protected is if everyone else is vaccinated and thus there is herd immunity.

    Nevertheless, I think it is reasonable for people to be concerned about vaccinations, and fortunately there is a win-win alternative. Titer testing are blood tests that measure the antibodies to different diseases so you can tell if you need a vaccine or a booster. Many schools and colleges accept positive titer test results in lieu of proof of vaccination, and it’s especially valuable with deciding whether or when to get a booster shot. Current vaccine recommendations don’t work for everyone. Titer testing enables individualized vaccinations for when each patient needs them.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  21. So are we all okay with letting the ex-football coaches who become district superintendents of municipal school systems dictate which vaccines will be administered at what age (grade) — when these same superintendents can NOT dictate (under Common Core) which facts about American History will be taught or at what age (grade)?

    Pouncer (d90bef)

  22. i’m not supposed to get the smallpox one cause of it might could eat my face

    but if i could i’d get it lickety split quick quick quick like a bunny

    i wanna get that pertussis one – there’s two ways you can go and i always forget

    i think probably the more expensive one is the one you want

    happyfeet (7b1a9e)

  23. i’m a wait til next year and do it with pre-tax monies though

    happyfeet (7b1a9e)

  24. Of course, not everyone wants to go to the expense, pain, or time to do titer-testing. For them getting the vaccine is the best choice. I like choices.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  25. The DRJ to whom I’ve been responding a lot lately wrote:

    I address this so much that I will sound like a broken record, but I have immune-compromised kids who can’t be vaccinated because their immune systems don’t respond appropriately to vaccinations. As a result, the only way my kids are protected is if everyone else is vaccinated and thus there is herd immunity.

    That’s a reasonable position, but your kids are part of a very tiny minority. The problem has been the idiotic parents who have listened to the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists, and there are too many of them. As a result, some serious diseases are making a comeback.

    Kind of makes me wonder: as these non-immunized kids start to reach adulthood, will major corporations start imposing a no-immunizations/no-employment-with-us-policy? I’ll be retired by then, but ‘twould seem like a perfectly responsible policy for a company to have. It still allows individuals to take their own choices, but it does up the consequences for taking the wrong decisions.

    The Dana who isn't a physician (f6a568)

  26. @Hoagie 15,

    The issue with that is there are some children who cannot vaccinate due to compromised immune systems (see DRJ@20). Additionally, vaccinations just do not work 100% of the time. You may have gotten a vaccination, but your body may not be immune. Also, bodies can lose immunities over time. For all these reasons, the herd immunity is necessary.

    Parents that don’t vaccinate their children are not just hurting themselves. They could be hurting other people, even children with compromised immune systems that would react even worse to “simple” diseases like measles (as I heard someone call that potentially deadly disease once). I agree that vaccination should not be mandatory (although every business or school should be allowed to disallow non-immunized people from going), but a parent that doesn’t immunize should know that they are making a very clear decision: “I’m willing to possibly kill your child because of my ignorance/conspiracy theories/religion and I’m okay with that.”

    Burnside (8fa39f)

  27. Dana,

    My point is there is a solution that helps people like my family, and helps the people that you say wear tinfoil hats, and even helps those who wholeheartedly believe in vaccines. Titer testing helps us all because:

    1. Testing lets people who worry about vaccines get a blood test that tells them whether or not they need a vaccine so they can make an informed decision. If they have sufficient antibodies to specific diseases, they don’t need to be vaccinated. If they don’t have sufficient antibodies, they should seriously consider the appropriate vaccine.

    2. If you have been vaccinated and believe in vaccines, titer testing can still help determine the appropriate time to get a booster. Most of the disease outbreaks come from people visiting from foreign countries who have not been vaccinated, like last year’s outbreak that started at Disneyland. But many homegrown outbreaks involve vaccinated populations, typically in junior high schools, where the immunity has worn off before the boosters are due. Some people need boosters sooner than the recommended times.

    3. Finally, having a fully vaccinated population benefits the people who can’t get vaccines. My kids may be a small part of that population but there are many others, including people with cancer and other diseases who are at risk from the diseases and the vaccines.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  28. “She’s stupid!” Mrs Pico is a pediatric RN.

    What’s the political orientation of your wife?

    “She’s stupid” instead of “that’s stupid” suggests to me a person who’s tilted far enough left that Fiorina in general pings the “stupid” reaction instead of “her opinion is stupid” reaction. I say that because when I look at Hillary, and if I disagree with an opinion of hers that might be shared by a conservative (although that’s rarely the case), I’m more likely to scoff “she’s stupid!” instead of “that’s stupid!” Of course, YMMV.

    Mark (9abec5)

  29. Donald Trump forced me to defend McCain. This is not a position I like to be in.

    I curse Trump.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  30. Mark asked:

    What’s the political orientation of your wife?

    Alas! She is a wonderful woman, and a great wife, but she cancels out my vote at every election. :(

    She is an eastern Kentucky Democrat, from an area where the Democratic Party is still strong in state and local elections. Come the general election, she will vote for the Democratic nominee.

    The Dana who married a very pretty Democrat (f6a568)

  31. DRJ has done a good job of describing pros and cons. I’m a genuine biologist, with quite a bit of experience in virology, and this comes down squarely on the rights versus responsibilities issue. Folks who do not vaccinate their children do put other people at risk. What DRJ describes is NOT that approach, but one that allows *individual* cases to be evaluated versus group data.

    Again, without the histrionics.

    Thank you, ma’am. Once again.

    Simon Jester (eb2e5f)

  32. Dana:

    Kind of makes me wonder: as these non-immunized kids start to reach adulthood, will major corporations start imposing a no-immunizations/no-employment-with-us-policy? I’ll be retired by then, but ‘twould seem like a perfectly responsible policy for a company to have. It still allows individuals to take their own choices, but it does up the consequences for taking the wrong decisions.

    I can’t tell you what employers are doing but I hope they do what most college do — accept titer testing as proof of immunization. The University of Kentucky accepts titer testing as proof of immunity for students here (generically called “proof of immunity”), for employees here, and for interns here (at page 14).

    DRJ (1dff03)

  33. Thank you, Simon. Please, please correct and add to anything I’ve said. I want to learn as much as I can about this topic.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  34. Simon, I would mandate vaccinations, against the parents’ wishes, for serious illnesses like polio, diphtheria, tetanus (and smallpox when I was a kid), for the protection of the children being vaccinated. Unless, of course, the vaccine itself is going to hurt them.

    nk (dbc370)

  35. Given the MSM’s Jon Stewart-like slice-and-dice machine, I don’t think nuance is a conservative candidate’s friend. It is nice, however, to hear a Republican candidate speak about a complex moral issue with such nuance and facility. How many of our declared candidates are up to such a task? Unfortunately, it doesn’t make for much of a “debate” soundbite.

    Moderator Megyn Kelly: “Could you give a nuanced assessment of the moral implications of the anti-vax controversy and keep it under 30 seconds?”

    Thanks for bringing this story to our attention, Dana.

    ThOR (a52560)

  36. Will this position help or hurt Fiorina? It seems like a reasonable position to me but I can’t tell how or if it will affect the typical Republican primary voter.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  37. Let’s go back to Fiorina’s original statement: “When in doubt, it is always the parent’s choice,” Fiorina said … “When in doubt, it must always be the parent’s choice.” “We must protect religious liberty and someone’s ability to practice their religion,” said Fiorina, receiving a round of applause. “We must devote energy and resources to doing so. Period.”

    I haven’t seen anyone address the “when in doubt” part of her statement. It leaves an awful lot of space for ruling against parental decision-making. Who decides when there is doubt? Are parents the only arbiters of medical evidence? Would that include parents who believe in the vaccine-autism link that has been discredited as the result of fraudulent science? What if the people in charge decide there is NO doubt about a particular vaccine? In cases where there is NO doubt, then Carly’s statement implies that parents may not be allowed to decide after all. She needs to explain what and who she is referring to when she limits the decision-making to instances of “no doubt.”

    I haven’t seen anyone address her remarks that seem to limit the parental decision-making right to the sphere of religious belief. What about atheist parents? Do they have the right to refuse vaccinations for their children for non-religious reasons? Would Fiorina condemn Court decisions that over-rule Seventh Day Adventists who deny blood transfusions and other medical care to their children? She wants to devote energy and resources to the protection of religious belief, a fine objective. However, what does she mean by “energy”? And what “resources” does she have in mind? Sadly, government power and allocations of the taxpayer’s money are often used to provide energy and resources for achieving social goals. Does Fiorina see a role for government in this effort, or does she envision an action program arising from the general public and the private sector? We don’t see much useful support for the religious freedom of Christians from any of the three branches of government these days, and we don’t see much effective opposition by the citizenry. Just consider all the losses of religious freedom we’ve seen in recent years, with no consequential rising up of the people (except to buy Chick-Fil-A meals and donate money to bakers and others who have been targeted for extinction by the left — nice moral support but achieving no change in the law).

    While Fiorina’s instincts about parental rights are laudable, I find her specific statement to be open to interpretations and misinterpretations that should require further clarification.

    pa (d958f2)

  38. Measles, chickenpox, and mumps kill people, especially children. They are not harmless kiddie diseases.

    I do insist that parents be the ones to decide whether their kids are vaccinated for anything; the cure for that (government mandates) is worse than the disease. A parent who doesn’t vaccinate is as bad a parent who lets their kids play in traffic.

    But that is a whole different thing from saying “oh, measles, what’s the big deal”. That is an anti-science position. Measles is one of the leading causes of childhood deaths around the globe to this day.

    “Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Complications are more common in children under the age of 5, or adults over the age of 20. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia.”

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  39. I am unclear as to what exactly I am guilty of.

    On the one hand nk thinks I mindlessly dismiss the enemy as the JV team.

    On the other hand EPWJ condemns me for noticing that they are not junior grade but capable of a steep learning curve.

    Which is it?

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  40. Honestly folks, this isn’t about vaccination. Or truth. It’s about trying to smear any opponent of the DNC. Right?

    If we have an equivalent media, we would get drumbeats daily in the other direction.

    This is about narrative and memes, nothing more.

    Sadly.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  41. Am I just stupid, or am I ovethinking things?

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  42. I don’t think you are stupid.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  43. Steve57

    Any condemnation is purely self inflicted, in fact I always have valued your opinion and input, and have told you that several times. Unfortunately as many of us older people here are, we don’t like to be questioned, my daughters cured me of that but I forget how sensitive people are to obvious pointing out of their public behavior.

    I have just noticed a sea change in your behavior, puzzling, much of the earlier steve is there but it seems different. Or I am overthinking this as well.

    Getting back to the comments, Rick Perry wasn’t ended by the “Opps” moment, I think we need to review the Footage of Kelly using Michelle Malkins erroneous article on Texas and the Gardisil the first effect vaccine against CANCER. Perry emotionally and a great risk required it in Texas. There was a parental opt out you could fill out on line and take to the school nurse or she had forms for you to do it. The opt out form said that the State was not responsible for any cancer your child would get by being exposed in a partially unvaccinated environment.

    Malkin and Kelly told outright falsehoods, said that Perry was on the take, that Gardisil had given him millions (he never ever met with them) and more just jacka$$ moronic statements. Perry tried to defend himself and Kelly didn’t even let him talk in the debate, shut him down and basically presented him as a crook in the pocket of the big pharm. What Kelly knew at the time, was that its required now in several states and is highly recommended by the CDC and the only vaccination in the world for cancer at that time was Gardisil.

    So long and short, months later in a fox and friends or some other appearance she said she brought up those things about Perry because she felt we had enough presidents that came from Texas – is was light and cute but to people like me, it meant that the questions and her behavior was meant to eliminate a candidate not illuminate his record. Honestly I cant remember if she did it herself in a debate but in her shows at the time drove the knife home, we lost one of the best ever governors who has a verified history of governing a purple to red state and making it even redder.

    All because a conservative anchor, Palin, and at the time her pet puppet Michelle Malkin, parroted democrat smearing talking points.

    Same as Cruz did to Dewhurst. Fiorina is running into the “fake” issue wall, and we all need to watch if they do the Rick to her.

    This isn’t against Kelly or whoever but against Roger Ailes who BTW to the best knowledge isn’t a conservative who is manipulating the media to pick our candidates on the right.

    The polls before fox had longtime governors with track records as the front runners, now we have TV personalities and talk show darlings in the top 5 – this has never happened before in American history where we are electing virtually unknowns and entrusting people we don’t know anything about to direct the most powerful nation the world has ever seen to forge the policies that keep making America great.

    The MSM picked Obama, and Clinton they started this now we have the media on the right picking nobodies to run on the right for president.

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  44. Will this position help or hurt Fiorina? It seems like a reasonable position to me but I can’t tell how or if it will affect the typical Republican primary voter.

    I guess a lot of that depends upon what people read into her comment. If they react like Dana’s wife and figure that Ms. Fiorina is pandering to anti-vaxxers then I guess that she will have some problems. If however they look at her comment as being supportive of giving parents more leeway to rear their children according to their own instincts then I think she will find support. She’s trying to thread the needle here, and the worst-case scenario is that no one is satisfied with her answer.

    JVW (ba78f9)

  45. It may not have been Kelly who did the debate thing to Perry but the same questioning the pattern was weirdly the same, also allowing people who had no business being up there on the stage, they all jumped on it and thus ended the longest serving Governor and LT Governor of the state that deploys the least state government spending in the Country and created most of the best paying jobs for 20 years and still is.

    Perry has an uncanny way of being brave enough to say hell no to legislatures, that’s why the crazy wildly vacillating fire breathing Texans elected him time and time again over some Democrat greats who were extremely well funded and organized. And why other republicans didn’t take him on.

    Perrys not the only great gov, Walker, maybe even greater, Bush certainly was just as fiscally and socially sound, but its all about the sound bite the 15 seconds rather than 15 years of solid governance.

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  46. JVW

    Her stand eliminated her forever, sometimes government for the better good has to take stands, its been decades since polio put more dread in a mothers heart than Hitler, if she took this stand back in the greatest generation, she would have been dragged outside her clothes ripped to shreds her head shaved and covered with molasses and feathers, now we opine how thoughtful and brave she is to expose children to certain death.

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  47. You are just wrong, EPWJ.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  48. Yeah, I know, but watch how this plays out then we will see

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  49. a vaccination when a girl is 10 or 11 or 12 for cervical cancer just in case she’s sexually active at 11

    Fiorina said the above, which is a flat-out lie. It’s disappointing pandering to her GOP base.

    On the other anti-vax stuff, she’s probably coming from a California point-of-view where being moderate on vaccines sounds extreme to rational people.

    We need 90 – 95% vaccination rates to establish herd immunity. No excuses for anti-vax help achieve this. More and more doctors in places like this are going to have to bar non-vaccinated kids from their practices.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  50. Fiorina said the above, which is a flat-out lie.
    Which part is a lie?

    The “anti-cervical cancer” vaccine is against a virus which is spread only by sexual contact. It is recommended at that age because that is what public health officials assume is a safe age prior to girls becoming sexually active. If it was thought that most waited until at least 16 to have sex, then it could be given at 14.

    If it was thought that most young people took sex as a serious commitment and not a casual sport, then maybe it could be delayed a little bit.

    Besides, all of the public health officials who know about these things have been long teaching that whatever you do is OK, just use condoms,
    well either they aren’t using them, or they don’t work that well for HPV.

    Maybe before the next sexual disease epidemic takes place that we are not now expecting happens,
    that one partner for life once you are old enough for the responsibilities of adulthood old fashioned stuff may be pretty good- and scientific even- advice.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  51. MD

    Think Mercek did studies that EVEN WITH ONE PARTNER – HPV can be spread, not going into the medical aspect of it, but boys can spread it without intercourse, at least the deadliest strains.

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  52. Measles is one of the leading causes of childhood deaths around the globe to this day.

    So what? What does “around the world” got to do with here? More kids die here in swimming pools.

    I think all kids should be forced to take any vaccination available. I think the government run schools should have the power to force vaccinations. The courts via the cops should rip any kid not vaccinated away from it’s unworthy parents. Give them the Elian Gonzalez treatment. The parents should be fined, have their property seized and thrown in jail with those scum Christian bakers and pizza guys. Only government bureaucrats are qualified to determine who should and should not be vaccinated. They are never wrong and neither are doctors.

    Hoagie (f4eb27)

  53. EPWJ
    If you are saying that two people, who never had any sexual contact, can spread HPV to one another, please give me the reference.

    I have never, ever, heard that as a claim in defense of the vaccine.

    If you are saying that a male can have it (having contracted it from someone else) and pass it to a female through intimate contact that does not involve “actual intercourse”, I can believe that.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  54. If you never heard you never listened, just googled “HPV spread through kissing” some theorize it can be spread by just holding hands, in fact they admit they don’t even exactly know how its spread. Some males are just carriers pure and simple, Perry even wondered and urged if males needed to be vaccinated as well

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  55. a vaccination when a girl is 10 or 11 or 12 for cervical cancer just in case she’s sexually active at 11

    Which part is a lie?

    The “anti-cervical cancer” vaccine is against a virus which is spread only by sexual contact. It is recommended at that age because that is what public health officials assume is a safe age prior to girls becoming sexually active. If it was thought that most waited until at least 16 to have sex, then it could be given at 14.

    “It was thought that,” eh? So what’s safer and more effective — giving it at an age before most girls become sexually active or at some later age? Does Ms. Fiorina’s daughter taking the vaccine at 11 have anything at all to do with “just in case she’s sexually active at 11?” Be honest.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  56. The thing I liked, Carly talking about the Democratic party’s extreme positions on a whole host of issues that they are undermining the character of the nation. This touches on the gay wedding cakes, those targeted lawsuits to destroy small businesses as a warning to every American, don’t you dare live a decent God fearing life or else the degenerates will come and destroy you.

    I like that she points that out.

    Oh. That’s a different video. You didn’t post it here.
    Watch this. Carly Fiorina uncensored on Louder with Crowder.

    It’s just that caving to the global warming troglodytes by tacitly accepting their premise is an aspect of letting degenerates dictate the character of the country through the heckler’s veto.
    It’s a sort of hypocrisy on Carly’s part.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  57. As far as anti-vax being a right for parents. Not a farking chance. The government tells us things we must do all the time, and it’s a good thing too.

    Because if the government didn’t twist peoples arms forcing them to comply, we would have stupid fresh over the border Mexicans driving the wrong way on the freeway killing innocent citizens all the freaking time.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  58. I think Carlito has the correct interpretation of Carly Fiorina. She is still running for the Senate in California. Still using the same losing formula that got her beat by Barbara Boxer. Pandering to the Whole Foods psychotics. Next she’ll be demanding GMO labels.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  59. MD in Philly @53, I think you have noticed that EPWJ is making claims that the evidence can’t support.

    Also I find it risible that he insinuates I compromised something by revealing the fact I attended SERE school.

    It’s on my friggin’ DD-214. Block 14. Military education. I am looking at it right now.

    …SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE & ESCAPE SCHOOL, 2WKS JAN91…

    If that information was classified, I would not have it in my possession.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  60. Apperently the Navy was trying to prove useful for once and listed all the training I attended. So a future employer would read that I had qualified on the M14 and think I just needed to be hired.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  61. Steve57

    Right, what you just posted doesn’t make any sense, the existence of the school is not top secret, as are most if not all military schools, what they teach you can be.

    At this point, I think you are being disingenuous, in fact a liar – several parts of the SERE curriculum are classified.

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  62. Carly should be running for Henry Waxman’s old job. Ego got the better of her ambitions.

    Maybe it’s not too late. If you’re reading Patterico, Carly, change course. You’re headed for the rocks. Somebody wave her off.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  63. EPWJ, what about SERE do you think I have compromised?

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  64. Steve57

    Time to just shut up about it don’t you think?

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  65. Or better yet, I gave you the number to NCIS. Report me.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  66. Be honest.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/14/2015 @ 1:32 pm

    I’ve always been honest unless it is clear sarcasm.
    (I’ll assume all bold is less obnoxious than all caps yet still conveys anger.)
    Maybe that’s projection you’ve got on your mind.

    If you want to say she was doing a bit of exaggeration/hyperbole, fine,
    but she was more accurate than quibbling about the meaning of “is”.

    And does it make a difference, really, if we are talking about beginning sex at 11/12 or 14???
    It’s like arguing whether the river is 10 or 12 feet deep regarding a person who can’t swim.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  67. EPWJ, I would just shut up if I believed I had done something wrong. I don’t think I have.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  68. Thanks MD. I thought so.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  69. EPWJ, I asked you a simple question. If Hillary! had done what she’s accused of doing would you denounce her.

    Your response speaks volumes. You’d rather try to manufacture a false case against me.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  70. War on women, indeed.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  71. I wish people would stop talking about the rights of the government and the rights of the majority. Those are powers, not rights. Rights are what stand between us and legal powers. Or so it used to me.

    htom (4ca1fa)

  72. And the thing that needs to be most emphasized, responsibilities, is absent from the conversation.
    The framers must have thought that responsibility was such common sense that they did not need to make it explicit.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  73. Steve57

    I answered it in detail I think condemnation is warranted so is a jail cell, and her husband too,

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  74. Dana whose wife is a pediatric RN:

    Carly Fiorina was shown, and it was the vaccination comment, at which point she said, “She’s stupid!” Mrs Pico is a pediatric RN.

    Since you brought this up, it’s this attitude that almost killed both of my children. I encourage people to be very careful when dealing with medical professionals who think these answers are easy.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  75. mr. tiger is right the mask is off

    this carly loser is a blatantly pandering picklepoo

    to sit there and validate some really creepy child-abusing anti-vaxxer chick like she did is just not something a person what can represent normal people does

    it’s something a pandering bucket of self-promoting elitist failmerican trash does

    so over her

    happyfeet (5546fb)

  76. Medicine is often based on statistical probabilities. Most people are in the majority when it comes to medical responses, so the probabilities are on their side. But if you aren’t in the majority or if you are in the small minority, things may not work out as well. I don’t want to encourage people to think they will have the bad outcomes because, statistically, they won’t. Also, many medical professionals have good judgment and they can make well-reasoned or well-informed decisions. In my experience, those aren’t the ones who think they have all the answers.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  77. Steve57

    I answered it in detail I think condemnation is warranted so is a jail cell, and her husband too,
    EPWJ (6dd9d3) — 8/14/2015 @ 3:54 pm

    I missed that.

    I have no excuses for my inattention to detail.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  78. so how did you find SERE, Steve,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  79. It sucked, narciso.

    I can’t say more. EPWJ is on the case.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  80. Steve57

    I think she should have been imprisoned long time ago

    whitewater
    The WH travel office
    Craig Livingstone
    The missing billing records found in her possession
    nd too many more, the closed records health task force BS, so freakin many
    She should have never ever been in govt, we lost irreplaceable people because she was still walking around free

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  81. really guys you are willing to endanger our countrymen by talking about how they evade and escape capture to win an argument on a blog? Seriously, grow up

    EPWJ (6dd9d3)

  82. No, EPWJ. I have said less than this.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/08/bush-to-veto-intel-bill-with-interrogation-restrictions/comment-page-2/

    This was, what? Seven years ago?

    As a former Naval Aviator who attended SERE school and personally experienced waterboarding – I can say the following:

    1. It was scary. Was it torture? In my opinion – no. I was not physically harmed. No water gets to the lungs. I was back to normal within 2 minutes of coming off the board. Most of what made it bad was psychological – fear.

    2. It was effective. It got me to talk – and to tell the truth. One of the reasons I was waterboarded, is I was maintaining a “cover story” that my captors figured out was false. People always say: “You can’t rely on what someone says when they are undergoing waterboarding, because they will say anything to make it stop”. When you are actually undergoing it – and you have a choice of telling a lie or telling the truth – you tell the truth. That’s because you want to MAKE SURE THAT IT STOPS! If you tell a lie, it might not stop. When you are a captive you assume your captors will be able to figure out if what you tell them is the truth or not. If you lie….you may stop the waterboarding temporarily – but you will wind up there again. You tell the truth. Everyone that underwent it – told the truth. Even the most hardcore resisters broke….and they broke with the truth. Those who say it is unreliable or ineffective simply don’t know what they are talking about. KSM broke in under 60 seconds – and he spilled the truth.

    [Salamantis again] So, according to this SERE school alumnus, Malcolm Nance was lying when he testified before the US Congress that waterboarding involved water being directed into the lungs. In fact, the head is kept lower than the rest of the body precisely so this DOESN’T happen. I’m surprised that he wasn’t prosecuted for perjury.

    Salamantis on March 8, 2008 at 11:16 AM

    I didn’t reveal anything you couldn’t read on my DD-214.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  83. I am not Salamantis, by the way.

    And no I am not willing to endanger our countrymen under any circumstances whatsoever.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  84. it was a ‘convenient narrative’ nance spun, like soufan and coleman at the bureau, that served the function of ruling out extensive interrogation techniques,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  85. I will not confirm or deny anything Salamantis wrote.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  86. it just defies logic, that could be part of the procedure, where did they promote nance after this,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  87. Anybody else view Sammy in a better light, now?

    nk (dbc370)

  88. Malcolm Nance was black, narcisso. There, I said it.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  89. he looks like a tougher neil degrasse tyson, of course they didn’t ask him was his ‘torturing his SERE candidates,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  90. I sincerely doubt a white guy could get away with saying such idiotic things about water boarding as if it meant that the sphincter muscle that controlled your breathing would be overcome and you’d swallow pint after pint of water.

    And no this isn’t a secret.

    And also no some black guys are just as outraged.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  91. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/retired-vet-heads-north-korea-find-remains-navy-black-pilot-jesse-brown-article-1.1403570

    SEOUL, South Korea — Two years after he made history by becoming the Navy’s first black pilot, Ensign Jesse Brown lay trapped in his downed fighter plane in subfreezing North Korea, his leg broken and bleeding. His wingman crash-landed to try to save him, and even burned his hands trying to put out the flames.

    A chopper hovered nearby. Lt. j.g. Thomas Hudner could save himself, but not his friend. With the light fading, the threat of enemy fire all around him and Brown losing consciousness, the white son of a New England grocery-store magnate made a promise to the black son of a sharecropper.

    “We’ll come back for you.”

    More than 60 years have passed. Hudner is now 88. But he did not forget. He is coming back…

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  92. http://homeofheroes.com/brotherhood/hudner.html

    Eight thousand badly outnumbered Marines shivered in the sub-zero temperatures of the Chosin Reservoir in North Korea on December 4, 1950 as eight F4U-4 Corsairs left the deck of the carrier USS Leyte. Each of the eight heavily armed but outdated fighters was piloted by a Naval aviator rushing to defend their comrades on the ground. Most of the pilots were young, in their early twenties, but all were dedicated “brothers in arms” who would risk their lives for the soldiers on the ground, men they didn’t even know, but defended because they were Americans at great risk…

    …In 1946, the same year Tom Hudner was graduating from the Naval Academy, Jesse Brown enlisted in the Naval Reserve. The following year he was appointed a Midshipman. Undaunted by the kind of prejudice voiced by an ROTC instructor at Ohio State who told Jesse, “No ni**er would ever sit his ass in a Navy cockpit”, the courageous young pioneer was the only black American among the 600 cadets when at last he entered flight school in Pensacola, Florida. Despite continued prejudice, even outright harassment by some officers, on October 21, 1948 Jesse LeRoy Brown received his wings.
    Jesse LeRoy Brown became the Navy’s first black pilot.

    …Lieutenant Hudner watched in fear and hope as Jesse Brown fought the controls of his Corsair. The engine was out, there was no power, and no place to run. The terrain was simply one mountain after another. As Ensign Brown’s plane neared the side of the nearest mountain, the other pilots began a circling pattern. The mountains were swarming with camouflaged Chinese Communist soldiers, and if Jesse was able to land his crippled craft successfully they would need to move in swiftly to provide cover fire to protect him.

    Flying into the wind, it was going to be a “wheels up, dead stick landing” on a near vertical, snow-covered mountain slope. The other pilots held their breath, then watched in horror as Jesse Brown’s aircraft slammed hard against the mountain side. The impact created an immediate cloud of flying snow that momentarily masked the other pilots’ view of the crash scene. Then, as the snow cleared, they could see Jesse Brown’s shattered plane lying in ruins. The engine had been ripped away and the fuselage was ruptured at the cockpit, twisted at an almost 45 degree angle. Sunlight glinted off the glass of the closed cockpit and Jesse Brown’s wingmates released a sigh of despair, fully aware that the Navy’s first black pilot had died in the crash on a North Korean mountainside. Before turning away, they circled a second time. Suddenly Tom Hudner noticed something. The canopy was now OPEN! He descended for a closer look and there, sitting in the open cockpit, Jesse Brown waved back at his wingman. Somehow he had survived the impact.

    Lieutenant Commander Cevoli quickly broke away from the other fliers to gain altitude and radio for a rescue helicopter. The other pilots continued a low altitude circle of the downed airman to insure that the enemy didn’t reach their comrade before the rescue crew. As they anxiously watched the surrounding terrain, they also kept an eye on Jesse Brown. Something was wrong. He was sitting up, waving from time to time, but he wasn’t making any effort to get out of the ruptured cockpit. Then Thomas Hudner noticed smoke rising from the nose of the Corsair. The plane appeared to be on the verge of erupting into flames which, because of the direction of the wind, would quickly engulf the cockpit….and Jesse Brown. The fact that his friend hadn’t got out of the plane meant one of two things. Either Jesse was too badly hurt to extricate himself, or he was somehow pinned in the wreckage. Without a second thought Lieutenant Hudner prepared to do the wrong thing, because it was the right thing to do.

    “I’m going in,” Tom radioed his commander, knowing that there was only one way to do that. Any landing would be disastrous, but Lieutenant Hudner had just decided to crash a perfectly good American fighter plane on a steep mountainside heavily controlled by the enemy. He didn’t wait for an approval from anyone, he just did it…

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  93. I am actually a bigger fan of the H3llcat than of the Corsair. For the price of 2 Corsairs you could get three H3llcats. The H3llcat wasn’t as good a fighter as the Corsair but it didn’t need to be. It just needed to be a better fighter than he Zero.

    http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html

    I think it is somehow fitting that the image of the H3llcat is burning on the deck of a carrier, with a catapult officer rescuing an Ensign.

    The H3llcat did all the heavy lifting. The Corsair was notorious as the Ensign Eliminator.

    Yeah, the H3llcat looked like the box the Corsair came in. And the Corsair ultimately proved to be the better plane. But the H3llcat was the right plane at the right place at the right time.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  94. Look at how the F8F Bearcat leaps into the air compared to the Mustang.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK2DGlvrGiQ

    It would be stupid of me to malign the Mustang. But the design philosophies were different. A long range bomber escort and a fleet air defense fighter were two different things, then.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  95. Part of the problem with discussions about waterboarding is that there are several different techniques using the same name.

    htom (4ca1fa)

  96. Steve – quit revealing classified national security secrets in order to win an Internet argument. EPWJ’s nonsense is nothing if not consistently nonsensical. WTF?

    I don’t see how Carly’s position is any different than Obama’s. But as we have seen before, that matters very little to the MFM who consider themselves part of the game, instead of their actual role.

    JD (a8d68a)

  97. Laryngospasm. It shuts off breathing. A very small amount of water on the trachea can do it. Even saliva or post-nasal mucous. It gives the feeling of drowning. It can actually cause something called dry drowning. The Gestapo were more straightforward — they’d use a piano wire noose on a meathook and tangle the victim from it for a minute or two.

    But let me tell you what happens when you fall into the hands of government thugs. If all they want is a confession, so they can convict you in a show trial, you can avoid torture by signing everything they put in front of you. The torments will take place later in the prison.

    If they want information, you will not avoid torture, even if you totally spill your guts. Because the only way they can be sure that you’re telling them the truth is by breaking you down till you’re their complete and utter slave with no will to resist or to lie. Waterboarding/asphyxiation is only one item on the menu. Others are drugs which lower the pain threshold and increase the Pavlovian fear response; food, water, and sleep deprivation; very hot or very cold confinement; restraint in painful positions; good old fashioned beatings, electric shocks, mutilation; etc.

    nk (dbc370)

  98. Patterico s Pontifications » Post-Debate Winner Declared, Next . By the way, Ace of Spades announced that Carly Fiorina will be a guest .

    Roberto Gunlock (aaedce)


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