Patterico's Pontifications

7/21/2015

Gay Baker To Gays: Stop Being Bullies Just So You Can Have Your Cake And It Eat It Too

Filed under: General — Dana @ 12:29 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Why not patronize the business that actually wants your business? Because it’s not about business. Jesse, the gay baker, makes the case:

Hi guys, my name is Jesse and I bake wedding cakes for a living, and I cannot tell you how disgusted I am with my fellow gay and lesbian community — that they would stoop so low as to force someone to bake a cake for them who simply doesn’t agree with them,” Bartholomew said. “And before you can go and blame me and say that they have to — no, they don’t have to. They don’t have to bake a cake for you.”

Are you stupid? That is your personal piece of your wedding. Your guests eat that,” he said. “That cake is involved in your photos. That cake is taken in your mouth, and you eat it in your stomach.”

Bartholomew went on to accuse some of bulling — and worse.

“There’s no other bakers out there?” he rhetorically asked. “It’s plain and simple: you are bullying someone, you are forcing someone, you are being a Nazi and forcing someone to bake a damn wedding cake for you when there are hundreds of other gays and lesbians that would gladly have your business. Shame on you.”

–Dana

91 Responses to “Gay Baker To Gays: Stop Being Bullies Just So You Can Have Your Cake And It Eat It Too”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. i call shenanigans

    no way that dude is actually gay

    happyfeet (831175)

  3. my first thought was that this was a phony , but checking out the link I see that he did not submit a story to christianToday but that christianToday picked up his FaceBook video.

    Wonder how long before his wall gets defaced (am i using the correct terminology for FaceBook?).

    seeRpea (181740)

  4. is this him?

    he’s also a lifeydoodle

    and an ardent Republican

    a lifeydoodle and an ardent Republican who watches fox and friends

    a lifeydoodle and an ardent Republican who watches fox and friends and retweets Sarah Palin’s endorsements of Ted Cruz

    a lifeydoodle and an ardent Republican who watches fox and friends and retweets Sarah Palin’s endorsements of Ted Cruz and who believes that “Obama was warned yesterday not to upset the rednecks in the country. Too late. We are mad as hell”

    he might could just be a very very special snowflake I guess

    Mark? Thoughts?

    happyfeet (831175)

  5. Does anybody else get hungry when news like this breaks out?

    CayleyGraph (dfcefe)

  6. happyfeet,

    Whether he is or isn’t a “special snowflake”, what do you think of his comments?

    Dana (86e864)

  7. Why should anyone force the issue to make people do what’s right?
    Complacency, Heck yeah!

    Gil (febf10)

  8. There are plenty of gay Republicans. It is, actually, not that odd to find one.

    Matt S (f70cda)

  9. i think his comments are a mess

    he feverishly imagines a monolithic gay community what is bent on forcing people to make cakes for them

    but the empirical evidence suggests that such incidents are far far too rare for this assumption to be true

    also I think he makes an ill-considered assumption in his assertion that people who complain about discrimination from a baker want to have a cake made by that baker

    I think in real life people who file a complaint about discrimination uniformly then take their business elsewhere

    (how else does the disagreement get to the complaint-filing stage?)

    but whatever he clearly has his own special snowflake agenda and he’s certainly welcome to be a part of the discussion

    happyfeet (831175)

  10. Gil – do you know anyone that when planning their wedding, tried to get thee wedding cake done by someone that most assuredly did not want to do it? I can’t imagine Better Half doing business with someone for our wedding that did not want our business.

    JD (9cad5d)

  11. JD,

    Its not like there isn’t any competition in the Baking business……

    EPWJ (5952c8)

  12. Why worry about what’s right when you have an agenda? It was never about a wedding cake.

    Gerald A 11/2006 (2c96c6)

  13. A gay baker needs more than a fraction of 3%ers to make a living.

    mg (31009b)

  14. Gil – do you know anyone that when planning their wedding, tried to get thee wedding cake done by someone that most assuredly did not want to do it? I can’t imagine Better Half doing business with someone for our wedding that did not want our business.

    Are you saying there are separate institutions that will bake the cake at equal quality and that gay people should go there for service? That sounds oddly familiar.

    Gil (febf10)

  15. We hold these truths to be self-evident and i will tell you what they are they are as follows – number one is that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, and that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness and also Baked Goods.

    happyfeet (831175)

  16. That is not at all what I was saying and you know it. I had an interacial marriage. If the photographer was against that, do you think that we should have forced someone to perform a service for our event that didn’t want to? Or should we just hire someone that actually wants to do the work? The point is that at something like a wedding, if you are seeking out someone that doesn’t want to do the work you would like to have done, it is no longer about the wedding and about you making a political point and forcing an agenda. That is far from a celebration of your love and commitment.

    JD (9477af)

  17. but you can still file a complaint Mr. JD while at the same time going with a new more better nice photographer

    that’s what i’d do if someone did discriminations on me

    as long as the form was online

    i have a very short attention span

    happyfeet (831175)

  18. Anybody else notice that the guy was kinda swishy? Just sayin’.

    Pious Agnostic (4e1a81)

  19. i thought he was faking at first Mr. Agnostic but now i think he’s just very expressive

    happyfeet (831175)

  20. That is not at all what I was saying and you know it.

    In your last question, you asked me if I actually knew anyone who this happened to. The frequency of a gay person being rejected by chance, does not have any bearing on whether or not services are separate for 2 different types of people. As to whether or not someone is just using this to “push an agenda”: For some people just the knowledge that something wrong can / is happen(ing) somewhere is enough. I believe Judge Robert Bork (whom Im sure you respect) has some interesting thoughts on this in “Slouching Towards Gemorrah”. I have no issue with people who chose to do things based on that.

    I had an interacial marriage. If the photographer was against that, do you think that we should have forced someone to perform a service for our event that didn’t want to?

    Depends on how strong your principles are, and if you are willing to sacrifice a little bit of your wedding magic for the greater good.

    Gil (febf10)

  21. how is this remotely logical?

    why are we all adopting the logic of the disturbed young baker kid?

    nobody is forcing anyone to photograph or bake

    they’re all complaining and moving on

    there was that one time in Canada when some hoochies found out they’d bought wedding rings from a bigot what did they do?

    they asked for their money back and took their business elsewhere

    where in the real world is anybody doing forcings

    in the real whirl what happens is they get discriminated on and then they file a complaint and then they go find someone else to work with

    this is same as what happens when I go someplace and they serve me tail-on shrimp in a dish for which it is clearly not appropriate

    i don’t try to force them to serve the shrimps how i like it

    i just go somewhere else

    cause I’m sick of dealing with this issue

    what kind of thai tranny moron buries tail-on shrimp in a nest of noodles

    i dunno but i don’t wanna do business with this idiot

    but I’m not gonna make an emotive youtube about it

    you know the reason Helen Hunt has a risible itinerant downward-spiraling career is cause everyone who works with her goes eff this I’m not working with you again cause you’re so annoying

    they don’t try to force Helen Hunt to act like a normal human being

    they just move on

    happyfeet (831175)

  22. I like the idea of a sign which says: “Same sex wedding cake orders welcome. All profits from same donated to Westboro Baptist Church.” And when the cake is delivered, a tasteful card included: “Thank you for supporting Westboro Baptist Church.” I forget which one of you guys first mentioned it here.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. If i recall correctly, the baker had several gay customers that he served with no problems, he didn’t discriminate against them.. The problem arose because he believed that baking and decorating the cake for a gay wedding would mean he was participating in the wedding, which was offensive to him and he declined to do that. His choice, not an act of discrimination.

    Somehow it became mandatory for someone to participate in a ceremony that he found offensive/immoral. Even without the religious aspect, finding it offensive or immoral should have been sufficient grounds for him to decline to participate.. Forcing him out of business because he didn’t want to participate was an act of bullying.

    It’s jackass walk around common sense that if someone doesn’t want to make you food, you don’t force them to, or if you do, you don’t eat it.

    labcatcher (4495c9)

  24. yeah this idea that baking a cake is a religious practice is just stupid

    it’s just dumb (and not a little bigoty)

    crack eggs and mix; gaze wistfully at your high school diploma on the wall

    then frost it up baby

    it’s no more religious than operating a roto-rooter for place where the wedding’s gonna be for in case people need to poop

    happyfeet (831175)

  25. for *the* place where the wedding’s gonna be i mean

    (in case of people need to poop)

    happyfeet (831175)

  26. “nobody is forcing anyone to photograph or bake”

    Yeah, people have just been sued or seen their businesses ruined if they don’t comply. Big difference.

    “there was that one time in Canada when some hoochies found out they’d bought wedding rings from a bigot what did they do? they asked for their money back and took their business elsewhere”

    Uh, point of order: the guy wasn’t a bigot. He simply doesn’t support gay marriage, but he treated them like any other customer. In fact, since you brought that story up, don’t forget that that gay couple threw a massive fit over the guy having an opinion that disagreed with theirs. They even went as far as to claim that an opinion he didn’t express to them somehow ruined their nuptials. What a pair of drama queens.

    “cause I’m sick of dealing with this issue”

    Well, you should be. You’ve devoted *nine* comments to this thread.

    “they don’t try to force Helen Hunt to act like a normal human being”

    Because the world is too short for lost causes like that.

    “they just move on”

    After the owner of Memories Pizza said she wouldn’t cater a gay wedding if asked. And the Left responded to that answer-to-a-hypothetical-question with howls of rage, fake Yelp reviews, threats of arson, and comparing the place to opposition to interracial marriage. Boy, if that’s people moving on from an issue, I’d hate to see what it looks like when they make a big deal out of it instead.

    tops116 (d094f8)

  27. it’s no more religious than operating a roto-rooter for place where the wedding’s gonna be for in case people need to poop

    But could the plumber tell them not to sit on the toilet while he’s doing it? And “No, thanks anyway, I have my own attachments for the snake”?

    nk (dbc370)

  28. It’s not about getting a cake.

    It’s not about being disrespected.

    It’s not even about equality.

    It’s a shakedown.

    You don’t think the dykes in Oregon actually suffered $135,000 in damages, do you?

    egd (1ad898)

  29. Yeah, people have just been sued or seen their businesses ruined if they don’t comply. Big difference.

    but there is a difference

    #1 in the case of the oregon baker bigots they were sued by the state not by the individuals they discriminated against

    #2 if you turn away business then whine like a momo when your business fails, you might be could be mentally defective and ill-suited to the management of a business

    What a pair of drama queens.

    Yes yes. Canadian lesbians god love em. But the point is their goal was most self-evidently NOT to force the jeweler guy to make rings for them.

    Well, you should be. You’ve devoted *nine* comments to this thread.

    are you trying to make me feel self-conscious

    ok fine it’s working

    Because the world is too short for lost causes like that.

    i think she may have gotten some good reviews a few years ago for playing a chick who has sex with a paralyzed guy

    i never saw the movie but god love her – she’s an american original for sure

    fake Yelp reviews

    if fake Yelp reviews are persecution you failmericans are in for a hard hard life

    happyfeet (831175)

  30. But could the plumber tell them not to sit on the toilet while he’s doing it? And “No, thanks anyway, I have my own attachments for the snake”?

    it’s business

    everything’s negotiable i guess

    my exterminator came today and he told me about the chicago air and water show

    it’s the second-most popular festival in Chicago wikipedia says – but check this:

    The Chicago Tribune thinks the “anachronistic” and “perverse” show’s “cheap thrills” should be retired.

    so obviously it’s not for everybody

    me I’m gonna go

    but if you don’t go I respect your choice

    but if you refuse to bake a cake for people just cause they getting gay married I do NOT respect your choice

    one voice

    singing in the darkness

    that’s me!

    happyfeet (831175)

  31. You don’t think the dykes in Oregon actually suffered $135,000 in damages, do you?

    no i don’t

    and i really hate we can’t use the r word here

    happyfeet (831175)

  32. I should have known that for the greater good was an idea that would resonate with a nozzle like Gil. As I knew you would, you completely missed the point. Shocka!

    JD (9477af)

  33. When I lived by the lake, the Stealth fighters would float by (really, they seem to do that) just outside my window. And the F-16s would go all the way up to Pulaski along Addison to come screaming back around but they stopped doing that because the Wrigleyville residents complained that they were making their souffles fall flat.

    nk (dbc370)

  34. What’s the r word?

    nk (dbc370)

  35. you know

    when someone’s a lil downsy

    happyfeet (831175)

  36. Oh, like what you had to do with the spark sometimes when engines still used magnetos.

    nk (dbc370)

  37. yes yes yes

    (i had to ask the googles)

    happyfeet (831175)

  38. nk the thing that you never go “full” on.

    Gazzer (ee3742)

  39. R.I.P. author E. L. Doctorow, writer of “Ragtime,” “Billy Bathgate,” and others

    Icy (c328a2)

  40. very concise take from this baker. Well said, sir.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. R.I.P. actor Theodore Bikel, appeared in “The African Queen,” “My Fair Lady,” & “The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming” (and others)

    Icy (c328a2)

  42. Are you saying there are separate institutions that will bake the cake at equal quality and that gay people should go there for service? That sounds oddly familiar.

    Gil (febf10) — 7/21/2015 @ 2:45 pm

    That had to do with government provided services dolt.

    Gerald A (949d7d)

  43. so sad about miranda and blake

    happyfeet (831175)

  44. re #43: what a bummer. wonder if lack of children was a problem.
    dang, really thought they were in it for the long haul.

    back to cake for a wedding: why isn’t decorating the cake protected as a free speech issue?
    can a newspaper be forced to print “congratulations on your nuptials” for any wedding?

    seeRpea (27b891)

  45. They dodged a bullet. Marriages which do not end in divorce end in death.

    nk (dbc370)

  46. Who are they, anyway?

    nk (dbc370)

  47. a lifeydoodle and an ardent Republican who watches fox and friends and retweets Sarah Palin’s endorsements of Ted Cruz and who believes that “Obama was warned yesterday not to upset the rednecks in the country. Too late. We are mad as hell”

    he might could just be a very very special snowflake I guess

    Mark? Thoughts?

    Any person who is philosophically of the right automatically moves up the ladder in my book. A conservative gay is about as uncommon as a conservative black or Jew, so more power to him.

    If 70 to 80-plus percent of the GLBT crowd were ideologically truly moderate to rightwing instead of idiotically liberal, I’d have to re-assess what makes them tick. Then again, if 70- to 80-plus percent of the GLBT crowd weren’t into big-mouth liberalism, they wouldn’t be so controversial and an ongoing nuisance.

    Mark (db7d10)

  48. #2 if you turn away business then whine like a momo when your business fails, you might be could be mentally defective and ill-suited to the management of a business

    I doubt whether you’d be quite so respectful of — or emotional about — the idea of customers’ rights and the sanity of the government playing Gladys Kravitz by sticking its big nose into the affairs of a small business owner (say, a gay baker) who was dealing with fundamentalist Christians who wanted the owner to cater to their demands of, say, whipping together a cake inscribed with the words “Homos are freaky and have lots of STDs!”

    Mark (db7d10)

  49. that would be the dumbest cake ever

    happyfeet (831175)

  50. Happyfeet must have had 2 extra espressos today – at least I’d GUESS he’s over-caffeinated.

    Dearie Me, Dearie (5d85d8)

  51. that would be the dumbest cake ever

    But a very accurate one if images shot at a typical gay pride parade and statistics from the Centers for Disease Control are taken into consideration.

    Mark (db7d10)

  52. the dumbest cake is the one you force someone else to bake

    steveg (fed1c9)

  53. A conservative gay is about as uncommon as a conservative black or Jew, so more power to him.

    Conservative Jews are not at all uncommon. They’re not a majority of the total Jewish population, but they’re a large minority. And among religious Jews they’re a large majority.

    Gay conservatives are also very common, though again not a majority.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  54. Happyfeet, you aren’t that stupid. You have managed to convince me that you know you are wrong on this because you are arguing in bad faith like a little kid that when his brother proves that he was wrong about something by showing him a encyclopedia entry just keeps saying, “No, I’m right. No, I’m right.” The kid knows he’s wrong, he just thinks it gains him some sort of victory to refuse to admit it.

    You know very well that gays have been bullying Christian business people and ruining their businesses just because they hate anyone who won’t celebrate their sexual activities. You know that even though only a tiny number of people have been directly involved, they have received enormous support in their bullying. You know that destroying someone’s livelihood just because they won’t give you the approval you need from them is an evil thing to do.

    You know all of this, but you keep twisting things around to avoid having to admit it. What is your reason? I don’t think you are like the little kid who just doesn’t want to give his brother a victory. You’re not that childish are you? No, I think the reason is that you are just trying to protect yourself from having to admit how full of hatred and spite you are.

    Why do you suppose gays are so uniquely angered by people who think they are doing something wrong? Meat eaters don’t get furious at vegans. Social drinkers don’t get furious at people who think drinking is a sin. Someone who drives his car ten miles to work doesn’t get furious just because there are people who think he is immoral not to ride a bike. People who don’t recycle, … well you get the picture. What do you suppose it is about homosexual sodomy that makes the participants so furious at the very thought that there are people who think they are sinning when they engage in it?

    Cugel (29f4d7)

  55. re #46: “miranda and blake” must be referring to a couple of Country Music singers who got married a few years ago, after both were established. Are you familiar with the term “over chicked”? Whatever the female version of that is, Miranda accomplished it. well, i suppose know i’d have to she used to have it accomplished.
    You might know Miranda Lambert from her song Gunpowder & Lead
    Blake Shelton, doubt it but maybe Old Red (about prisoner who attends to warden’s bloodhound) .

    seeRpea (27b891)

  56. Ah, famous for being famous.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. no, they are talented singers.

    seeRpea (27b891)

  58. If i recall correctly, the baker had several gay customers that he served with no problems, he didn’t discriminate against them.. The problem arose because he believed that baking and decorating the cake for a gay wedding would mean he was participating in the wedding, which was offensive to him and he declined to do that. His choice, not an act of discrimination.

    So the baker would bake wedding cakes for everyone else, just not gay people. That’s not discrimination? Seems like it to me regardless of the reason.

    Gil (4e1585)

  59. Maybe he should join them in a threesome on their wedding night too?

    nk (dbc370)

  60. You know very well that gays have been bullying Christian business people and ruining their businesses just because they hate anyone who won’t celebrate their sexual activities.

    Actually no they are being bullied because they do not treat all people the same.

    Why do you suppose gays are so uniquely angered by people who think they are doing something wrong? Meat eaters don’t get furious at vegans. Social drinkers don’t get furious at people who think drinking is a sin. Someone who drives his car ten miles to work doesn’t get furious just because there are people who think he is immoral not to ride a bike. People who don’t recycle, … well you get the picture. What do you suppose it is about homosexual sodomy that makes the participants so furious at the very thought that there are people who think they are sinning when they engage in it?

    This is an impressive list of irrelevant examples. The objection is not that Christians think it is wrong to engage in gay sex. It is that Christians act on those beliefs in ways that result in unfair treatment of people.

    Gil (4e1585)

  61. Maybe he should join them in a threesome on their wedding night too?

    Heard it here first.
    Baking wedding cakes = threesomes!

    As an aside can I get a ruling:
    Is it just one sin – adultery – to have a threesome as long as the “swords dont cross”? Corollary, does one run the risk of triple sin – two counts adultery and one count corn-holing if they engage both husband and wife?

    Gil (4e1585)

  62. Anyway, the bottom line is that Bonobo monkeys don’t bake wedding cakes, so all your arguments are invalid.

    nk (dbc370)

  63. Mr. Cugel I think people should be free to not bake cakes for gay people if they for reals don’t want to

    but i don’t think they should hide this bigotry under cover of “religious freedom”

    they should just assert they have the freedom not to bake cakes for cake people

    the idea that it’s against anyone’s religion to bake cakes for a gay wedding is deeply silly and unchristian to boot

    happyfeet (831175)

  64. not to bake cakes for *gay* people i mean

    i am definitely not over caffeinatered

    happyfeet (831175)

  65. Anyway, the bottom line is that Bonobo monkeys don’t bake wedding cakes, so all your arguments are invalid.

    Hah! :)

    Gil (4e1585)

  66. I believe, in the case of the Canadian jeweler, he’d already made/purchased the rings. That’s why they want a deposit for custom work. The buttheads wanted the deposit back because bigoted hands had touched their rings. So he has a couple of custom rings–work and material expended–waiting around for somebody who might want them.
    This is not merely taking their business elsewhere. They violated the spirit if not the content of the contract by virtue of LGBT complaining and the jeweler took a loss.

    Richard Aubrey (f6d8de)

  67. but the point mr. aubrey is those neurotic canadian hoochies had no interest in doing business with a jerk

    so why would we extrapolate from this a goofy idea like in the youtube that gay people have a hankering for wedding cakes baked by bigots

    it’s silly!

    what happens is gay people file a complaint about discriminations and then go get a tasty cake from nice people

    there’s no evidence they want nasty bile cake from Melissa the hatey hatey ig-pig plus her husband is like a garbage man and he probably gets his garbage stank all over the kitchen

    yuck!

    happyfeet (831175)

  68. We should have laws requiring gays working in the food industries to
    1. post warning notices
    2. be tested and certified as “e coli”, “hiv”, etc., free at the beginning of each shift
    3. carry special liability insurance if any customer or user contracts any one of the listed diseases
    Maybe even require gays to wear a patch (see the famous Juden patch of the 1930’s) just in case.
    After all, since “black lives matter” then “straight lives matter” along with “free from gay sex practices disease” matters?

    cedarhill (08055c)

  69. happy.
    If, in the Canadian case, the two buttheads had not had the LGBT howlers behind them, they’d not have gotten their deposit back. As they should not. It was a special case where the jeweler had to be punished not simply by losing the business, but by being mulcted of money legitimately his.

    Richard Aubrey (f6d8de)

  70. he feverishly imagines a monolithic gay community what is bent on forcing people to make cakes for them

    I usually avoid reading your comments but couldn’t miss this one.

    I think what he imagines is real and, while it may not be universal among gays, it is common as a way to force the straight community to celebrate the end of the culture. They, and you, will regret this one day.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  71. the only thing special was they found out the guy was a bigot after he took their money

    which is not what generally happens

    me i think caveat emptor is the principle what applies in this situation

    but at the same time there’s nothing wrong with asking for your monies back

    i asked for these egg rolls to be taken off my check last week cause they were nasty

    the people even admitted they came off a truck

    happyfeet (831175)

  72. happy
    The two buttheads didn’t legally or morally deserve their money back. The deposit was to insure the jeweler against him spending money and time and then the folks deciding not to take the product. It’s a usual proceeding. It was his money, legally and morally, and if it hadn’t been for the rent-a-mobs with the designated victim status making them invincible, he could and should have kept it.
    Now, we’re getting to the point where you know this and I know this and…what has not been clear to you, everybody knows you know this.

    Richard Aubrey (f6d8de)

  73. I just said it didn’t hurt to ask

    happyfeet (f6c24e)

  74. I really, really don’t like bigoted people calling other people bigots.

    But please have fun with this character.

    It’s not my blog, though. Hey! It’s not his, either.

    Simon Jester (b58785)

  75. back atcha picklepoo

    happyfeet (f6c24e)

  76. happyfeet, your style of writing — like a grade-school kid — must mean you don’t really expect or want to be taken seriously here, which is the way I can’t help but approach you. Even your split personality, where you often smirk about homosexuality (ie, using “gay” in a pejorative way or making light of non-masculine behavior in males), yet also have a youthful “down with the man” rebellious attitude about people trying to uphold basic standards, is evidence of that.

    The objection is not that Christians think it is wrong to engage in gay sex

    Don’t single out Christians and Christianity when citing a major reason there’s disquiet in many people towards homosexuality. That type of reaction apparently is innate and transcends religion and history, best exemplified by the famous ancient Greek philosopher Plato. He ended up strongly, harshly condemning certainly male homosexuality. Plato, by the way, wasn’t carrying around a Bible at the time and wasn’t a devotee of Jesus Christ, much less the US’s Republican Party.

    Mark (b41e91)

  77. You might know Miranda Lambert from her song Gunpowder & Lead
    Blake Shelton, doubt it but maybe Old Red (about prisoner who attends to warden’s bloodhound) .

    and I might not. I’ll take Merle Haggard, George Jones, Waylon Jennings, Patsy Cline and a few others any day of the week. I’m old-timey like that.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  78. It’s quite clear that you’re arguing in bad faith. You obviously don’t understand the issues.

    #1 in the case of the oregon baker bigots they were sued by the state not by the individuals they discriminated against

    They were not sued by the state. They were charged with a quasi-criminal charges by the state. But the prosecution was initiated by a complaint filed by the bigots. The bakers were ordered to pay the bigots for expressing their religious beliefs. The “restitution” the bakers were forced to pay was based on the damages that the bigots allegedly suffered, not statutory damages.

    Except for the named party, this was a civil case by the bigots against a family run business.

    #2 if you turn away business then whine like a momo when your business fails, you might be could be mentally defective and ill-suited to the management of a business

    Except businesses such as these are not failing because they don’t have enough business to support their company. They’re failing because of harassment and discriminatory lawsuits by non-customers. The pizza parlor in Indiana, for example, did not nearly go out of business because they refused wedding catering work. They nearly went out of business because of (mostly) out-of-state harassment, fraudulent negative online reviews, and death threats.

    Fortunately, good people continue to stand up against discrimination. It would be cool if you could be one of them.

    egd (1ad898)

  79. i don’t feel like standing up for them ones Mr. egd it’s not my thing

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  80. If i recall correctly, the baker had several gay customers that he served with no problems, he didn’t discriminate against them.. The problem arose because he believed that baking and decorating the cake for a gay wedding would mean he was participating in the wedding, which was offensive to him and he declined to do that. His choice, not an act of discrimination.

    So the baker would bake wedding cakes for everyone else, just not gay people. That’s not discrimination? Seems like it to me regardless of the reason.

    Gil (4e1585) — 7/22/2015 @ 2:33 am

    Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  81. Except for the faux hawk, I love the guy!

    Patricia (5fc097)

  82. So the baker would bake wedding cakes for everyone else, just not gay people. That’s not discrimination? Seems like it to me regardless of the reason.

    So, if you are asked to provide animals for animal sacrifice at a celebration of polygamy and you decline you are discriminating ?

    That’s called reductio ad absurdum

    The gays and been served repeatedly until they asked for a wedding cake. Then they created out of whole cloth a story of being abused.

    The “judge” who is just a bureaucrat says, “The goal is to rehabilitate. For those who do violate the law, we want them to learn from that experience and have a good, successful business in Oregon.”

    Shades of Winston Smith.

    By the end of the novel, O’Brien’s torture has reverted Winston to his previous status as an obedient, unquestioning party member who genuinely loves “Big Brother”. Beyond his total capitulation and submission to the party, Winston’s fate is left unresolved in the novel. As Winston realises that he loves Big Brother, he dreams of a public trial and an execution; however the novel itself ends with Winston, still in the Chestnut Tree Café, contemplating and adoring the face of Big Brother.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  83. The Kleins have no objection at all to baking a wedding cake for gay customers, so long as it is not to be used at a same-sex purported wedding. If a gay person, or indeed a gay couple, threesome, or an 20-member group marriage were to walk in and say “we’re not getting married, we just like wedding cake so much we want you to bake one for us to eat at Sunday dinner”, I’m sure they’d be happy to make it and make some money. So you can’t even call it discrimination in that way. Their only objection is to participating in an act that they believe to be every bit as wrong as bank robbery.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  84. bank robbery

    that’s just crazy robbing a bank is one of the worst things you can do your whole life it goes on your permanent record

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  85. So the baker would bake wedding cakes for everyone else, just not gay people. That’s not discrimination? Seems like it to me regardless of the reason.

    Gil (4e1585) — 7/22/2015 @ 2:33 am

    Gil don’t answer part of what I said and ignore the rest of it.

    I believe it was the baking and decorating of the cake that made him believe he was participating in the celebration of the gay wedding which he found offensive.

    labcatcher (4495c9)

  86. that’s just crazy robbing a bank is one of the worst things you can do your whole life it goes on your permanent record

    Well, guess what, Christians (and Jews and Moslems) believe that sexual immorality also goes on your permanent record, and I do mean permanent. That it’s a crime just like bank robbery or mugging little old ladies. And many of them also believe the same about the act of holding a parody of a wedding for a same-sex couple; that it’s a criminal act for which those who participate will have to answer before the supremest court of all.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  87. we’re gonna have to agree to disagree

    i’m a christian and we don’t believe there’s anything wrong with gay marriage

    there’s literally millions of christians what think the exact same as me

    literally millions like if they all went for the same lightning deal on Prime Day less than 1% would be able to get the Echo at $50 off before the deal was 100% claimed

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  88. i’m a christian and we don’t believe there’s anything wrong with gay marriage

    there’s literally millions of christians what think the exact same as me

    I don’t believe that is true.

    Milhouse (a04cc3)

  89. “Many will say Lord, Lord” and I’ll say, “I never knew you, away from me”.

    I read something a while ago that made the point that non-heteros do not see their sexuality as something they do but as something they are.

    So in the eyes of the GLBTQ, etc. crowd, anyone who disagrees with the equality of GLBTQ, etc. with heterosexuality is not saying they disagree with a behavior, but that they deny the “personhood” because their identity is so tied into their sexual preference.

    In the discussion of nature vs. nurture, etc., the question begins with what is the nature of humanity. To those who are materialists/believers in scientism, nature vs nurture and the interplay of biochemical reactions is what you have.

    If one believes that there is some transcendent soul or spirit to a human (as ridiculous as that may seem to some) then there is another realm of causation to consider.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  90. According to Gallup, there are millions of so-called Christians in the US who do not believe in objective morality. Not that they don’t agree with what should be judged right or wrong, but that they don’t think their is an objective right and wrong in the eyes of God that makes a difference.
    I suppose such a person might be a very confused Christian, but that view does not square with anything the New Testament says. If one prefers one’s own opinion to the plain reading of the NT, I do not know on what basis one would call oneself a “Christian”.
    Actually I do know, they think a “Christian” is someone who tries to live by the golden rule, tries to be nice, and isn’t something else. That’s what I thought for many years.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  91. I read something a while ago that made the point that non-heteros do not see their sexuality as something they do but as something they are.

    Which is a fair way to see things. Sexual orientation, like handedness, is not an action, it’s a trait that a person has. At what age did you become heterosexual? When you first had sexual intercourse with a MOTOS? if so, what were you before then? I think most people would say they have always been hetero- or homo-sexual, long before they did anything about it, just as a baby is right- or left-handed long before it first picks something up with its dominant hand. People who live chaste lives still usually have a sexual orientation. And no religion I’m aware of has a problem with homosexuals as people. They have a problem with homosexual acts, whether performed by homosexuals or by heterosexuals. (And no, performing a homosexual act doesn’t automatically make someone gay, any more than performing a heterosexual act makes someone straight.)

    Milhouse (a04cc3)


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