Patterico's Pontifications

6/22/2015

About The Confederate Flag

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:57 pm



[guest post by Dana]

This afternoon, Gov. Nikki Haley of South Carolina called for the Confederate flag to be removed from the grounds of the state capitol:

“The time has come,” Haley said. “That flag, while an integral part of the past, does not represent the future of our great state.”

“We are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer,” she said. “The fact that people are choosing to use it a sign of hate is something that we cannot stand. The fact that it causes pain to so many is enough to move it from the capital grounds. It is after all a capitol that belongs to all of us.”

Haley, however, defends the rights of private citizens to fly the flag on their own property.

Of course, not everyone is on board with the governor:

The Sons of Confederate Veterans said it plans to vigorously fight any effort to remove the Confederate flag from the grounds of South Carolina’s Statehouse.

The group said it was horrified at last week’s shooting but there is “absolutely no link” between the massacre and the flag.

Leland Summers, South Carolina commander of the group, says the group is about heritage and history, not hate. He offered condolences to the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, and said now is not the time to make political points.

Summers said the Sons of Confederate Veterans have 30,000 members nationwide that will fight any attempt to move the flag.

A number of the 2016 Republican and Democratic candidates (and candidates-yet-to-announce) have weighed in on the Confederate flag debate. Their views can be found here.

And in further Confederate flag news:

Untitled-1

Just last week, in the case of Walker v. Texas Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, the Supreme Court ruled in a 5-4 vote, that Texas has the right to reject a specialty license plate application from the Sons of Confederate Veterans because the plate bears the Confederate flag:

The Supreme Court ruled on Thursday that Texas did not violate the First Amendment when it refused to allow specialty license plates bearing the Confederate battle flag. Such plates, Justice Stephen G. Breyer wrote for the majority, are the government’s speech and are thus immune from First Amendment attacks.

“As a general matter,” Justice Breyer wrote, “when the government speaks it is entitled to promote a program, to espouse a policy or to take a position.” Were this not so, he said, the government would be powerless to encourage vaccinations or promote recycling.

People use specialty license plates to suggest that the government endorses the messages they bear, he wrote. Otherwise, he said, people “could simply display the message in question in larger letters on a bumper sticker right next to the plate.”

In dissent, Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. said:

[T]he majority opinion “establishes a precedent that threatens private speech that the government finds displeasing.”

Texas has hundreds of specialty plates. Many are for college alumni, sports fans, businesses and service organizations. Others send messages like “Choose Life,” “God Bless Texas” and “Fight Terrorism.” The license plates are, Justice Alito wrote, “little mobile billboards on which motorists can display their own messages.”

He mocked the notion that, say, plates saying “Rather Be Golfing” or celebrating the University of Oklahoma conveyed a government message. The first, he said, cannot represent state policy. The second, in Texas at least, bordered on treason during college football season, he wrote.

*Joining the four liberal justices with the deciding vote was Justice Clarence Thomas.

As a result of the Supreme Court’s decision in Walker v. Sons of Confederate Veterans, No. 14-144, any states which currently allow the Confederate flag specialty-plates can now ban them. States include Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia.

*Over at the Atlantic, you can read an opinion as to why Justice Thomas joined the liberal justices in this case. Examining Justice Thomas’s comments made during Virginia v. Black, No. 01-1107, writer and constitutional law professor Garrett Epps believes Justice Thomas joined the liberal justices, because, as he puts it:

Thomas is the Court’s only African American. Much has been made of his rejection of contemporary civil-rights orthodoxy. But it is equally clear that Thomas retains vivid and bitter memories of his poverty-stricken childhood in the Jim Crow South—and that he retains a particular hatred for the symbols of Southern white supremacy

–Dana

229 Responses to “About The Confederate Flag”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. Number of American Blacks whose lives will get better as a result of the confederate battle flag being banned.

    Zero.

    Gregory of Yardale (2d66d1)

  3. The real Confederate flag is white stars and white bars on a white background. You lost, losers. Not only did you lose, you surrendered, you grit-eating surrender monkeys. Get over it. And why does the state flag of Hawaii include the Union Jack, I want to know. http://www.localusa.com/hawaii/images/flag.gif

    nk (dbc370)

  4. I concede my vote on the issue to people who actually are from the South. I think you have to live there to get it. If you do want to understand the South a little more, though, you should read “Gone with the Wind.” It’s a view of pre- and post-civil war South that is shockingly unfiltered.

    But I do think this latest scuffle over the flag was started by political operatives. They saw their opportunity and ran with it. You can bet every Repub candidate will be peppered with questions about it.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  5. Gov. Halley can not dictate this. It lies within the power of the legislature.

    Mandy Manners (a08cf9)

  6. I’m so old, I remember when liberals were *for* hateful messages printed on things.

    scrubone (c3104f)

  7. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    Mandy Manners (a08cf9)

  8. Every mass shooting produces a target for leftists – right wing hate speech after Tuscon, then their attempts to screw up the 2nd Amendment, and now th confederate flag. They overtly politicize every tragedy.

    JD (3b5483)

  9. I could never understand flying the Confederate flag even when I lived in Texas. The South lost for crap sake, why fly the flag of a loser. It’s like flying a Nazi flag. Are you kidding? Now I can understand it in a historical context like at museums or Civil War memorials and forts. But I would not fly one at my home yet I do fly a Gadsden flag. I have to agree with nk. The Confederate flag may have started out the Stars and Bars but the final flag was all white. Hey boys, the Civil War has been over 150 years. Get over it already. Are you Confederates or Americans. I’m an American.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  10. The flag in question is actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia which Lee commanded. It was never meant to be used other than as a line marker on the field of battle. I am glad to see it removed from government buildings. But the yeehaws flying it from the back of their pick up trucks and voicing the rebel yell are what the real cultural trouble still is, and that is protected speech.

    I love history museums and have visited most of the key ones in our nation’s capitol and big cities nationwide. But even while traveling the highways and byways if I see a sign for a little town or county historical museum in an old courthouse I try to go see what unique and interesting things they have on display. The extant original stars and bars flags belong in these museums along with other Confederate artifacts.

    elissa (b5a7fd)

  11. Funny thing is , JD, the families of the Charleston victims were better people, more noble Americans and greater Christians than any of the leftist demigods could ever be. Before their loved ones had even been buried they united in the Holy Spirit to forgive the murdering pig who did this deed. Meanwhile the leftist pigs tried to make political hay from these poor Americans loss.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  12. Over on Ace, I think it was, the symbolism of the confderate flag is “eff you”. I am a rebel. I will not be dictated to about how I live, what I think. I mean, what is more rebellious than a rebel flag? Nobody should be dumb enough to think this ends at the SC capital dome. The SJW are going to be emboldened with every victory. This isn’t about the black population of the south. Its about power.

    Richard Aubrey (f6d8de)

  13. Pictured here are the flags of the confederacy. There were three different ones “adopted” by the confederate congress over the years from 1861 to 1865, but no “official” one. The Virginia battle flag image ( as is being removed in SC) made an appearance as the canton in the last two versions, but it never served as THE flag.

    http://www.moc.org/collections-archives/flags-confederacy

    elissa (b5a7fd)

  14. The stupid thing is not flying over the state capitol dome. The real South Carolina flag is a crescent and a palm tree — like it was Morocco or something. It’s somewhere on the capitol grounds. Why? To pander to mouthbreathers, it’s not an official symbol of the state.

    nk (dbc370)

  15. As I understand it, S. Carolina started using that flag at the height of the civil rights era, as a way of saying segregation now and forever. If that is so, it should be taken down, if only out of respect for black citizens ifbthe state.
    Anti Federal government sentiments can be expressed like Rev. Hoagie does with the Gadsden flag or any other number of early American symbols. It is not as if the Confederate flag is the only flag available for that message.

    I have to add that, Boston born as I am, it was a bit startling to discover that one of Richmond’s main thoroughfares is prominently emblazoned with the name “Jefferson Davis Highway”. Except some signs are less formal and call him Jeff Davis.

    kishnevi (93670d)

  16. this is so important

    everyone remembers the flags what flew over the titanic

    the flags what flew so insouciantly over that great ship

    before they disappeared into the icy waters

    happyfeet (831175)

  17. “I am a rebel. I will not be dictated to about how I live, what I think. I mean, what is more rebellious than a rebel flag? Nobody should be dumb enough to think this ends at the SC capital dome. The SJW are going to be emboldened with every victory. This isn’t about the black population of the south. Its about power.”

    Poor little flower. It’s like march to the sea. On to Mississippi.

    stir (0f3b82)

  18. Elissa (and everyone else)
    If you are ever in northern Virginia visit the Stafford White Oaks Museum.

    kishnevi (294553)

  19. Thanks,elissa. I never

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  20. Kishnevi–that White Oaks Museum looks exactly like my kinda place! I appreciate the tip.

    elissa (b5a7fd)

  21. Sorry, hit the wrong button. I never took the time to look up those flags. The older I get the more amazed I am at how much I’ve missed and have yet to learn.

    I find it odd that leftist’s run around saying how unimportant the US flag is when it’s being burnt, stepped on or in some way desecrated but how important a “symbol” the Confederate flag becomes when they can use it to divide the races.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  22. Imdw is special.

    JD (3b5483)

  23. Leftists love victims. Ghouls like stir want perpetual agitation. Politicize every tragedy. Dance on the graves of the dead. /spit

    JD (3b5483)

  24. Here is a real battle flag.
    One of the flags flown at Iwo Jima. I think this the second one. On display at the world’s biggest 3D recruiting poster aka the National USMC Museum at Quantico.

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  25. California needs to reconsider its flag. California grizzly — extinct. California Republic — also extinct. But what would be the new symbol? An upside-down Evian bottle with the last drop dripping out?

    nk (dbc370)

  26. And not a flag, but a stone marker.
    Lexington Green.
    As best can be known, the words carved on the stone were said at or close to the spot where the stone stands. It literally began there.

    kishnevi (294553)

  27. I suppose for some there’s never a good time to put an end to a heritage of hate.

    stir (0f3b82)

  28. I tend to agree with Reihan Salam. He doesn’t say it this way, but only the Stars and Stripes and a state’s flag should fly on state capital grounds:

    Back in 2000, Georgia’s state government commissioned an inquiry into the history of Georgia’s state flag. The final product is a fascinating document, and though I’m sure that it does not offer the last word on the subject, I found it worthwhile.

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420015/two-thoughts-confederate-battle-flag-reihan-salam

    I’m not going to quote it at as much length as he does (and what he quotes is just a bit of full length document).

    …From the end of the Civil War until the late 1940s, display of the battle flag was mostly limited to Confederate commemorations, Civil War re-enactments, and veterans’ parades. The flag had simply become a tribute to Confederate veterans…

    …In 1948, the battle flag began to take on a different meaning when it appeared at the Dixiecrat convention in Birmingham as a symbol of southern protest and resistance to the federal government – displaying the flag then acquired a more political significance after this convention. Georgia of course, changed its flag in 1956, two years after Brown v. Board of Education was decided. In 1961, George Wallace, the governor of Alabama, raised the Confederate battle flag over the capitol dome in Montgomery to commemorate the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War. The next year, South Carolina raised the battle flag over its capitol. In 1963, as part of his continued opposition to integration, Governor Wallace again raised the flag over the capitol dome. Despite the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War, the likely meaning of the battle flag by that time was not the representation of the Confederacy, because the flag had already been used by Dixiecrats and had become recognized as a symbol of protest and resistance. Based on its association with the Dixiecrats, it was at least in part, if not entirely, a symbol of resistance to federally enforced integration…

    I think it’s time states ended official displays of the confederate battle flag. Because they only started officially displaying the stars and bars in the latter half of the last century.

    On the other hand I believe private display of the flag needs to be vigorously defended. For a lot of people the flag doesn’t hold any racist overtones. The Civil War did tear families apart, and blood was shed on both sides. There’s something very NORK-like to say certain soldiers, who did fight well and likely had no interest in slavery, shouldn’t be honored.

    I have no real real dog in the fight. My nightmare scenario is that I won’t be able to watch The Dukes of Hazard without having some network having to blur the roof of the General Lee.

    It is my natural right as an American to watch girls in Daisey Dukes and ’68 – ’70 big block Dodge Chargers in their complete, unadulterated glory. You’re talking symbols of my youth here. I will fight you for them.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  29. 27. I suppose for some there’s never a good time to put an end to a heritage of hate.

    stir (0f3b82) — 6/22/2015 @ 8:05 pm

    I suppose there’s never a good time for you to get over your own delicate self.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  30. The confederate flag had nothing to do with this effed up racist killing people. It is just leftists like stir imdw that use the deaths of the innocent to advance their political goals. That is it.

    JD (3b5483)

  31. So which flag is making all those folks in Chicago, Detroit and Philly kill each other?

    Willie Lee (fc3502)

  32. We should rename all towns, streets, restaurants, etc that are in any way related to any Confederate states, armies, generals, etc

    JD (3b5483)

  33. as said above, taking down the flag will do very little good, except for making some feel better who for some reason think it will. Those who are insane and want to start a race war, probably about 1 in 320 million people, will likely be moved to action.

    For many it is not a declaration of racism, but for enough people it is (probably not necessarily so much those who fly it, but those who see it) that it is hard to argue it ought to be some sort of official state symbol.

    Several years ago oldest went up into northern boonies of PA with an Africa-American coworker to go fishing. They had car trouble in the middle of nowhere and found themselves in a repair shop with the rebel flag prominently displayed and took a hard swallow, not knowing what to expect. the people in the shop were perfectly kind and courteous to them both, and expressed admiration that they were willing to be Philly cops.

    As I said, hard to argue to keep it, but going along with the outrage seems to fit in with the narrative that the act was symbolic of the attitudes of far too many whites,
    and that is just not true.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  34. There are a lot of hateful and ignorant comments here. I will keep my Confederate flag, and you can plant “Old Gorey” between your ass cheeks. I will be leaving the conservative movement and the Republican Party — why should I support people who hate my ancestors, my flag, my heritage? I will lobby other conservatives of Confederate descent to do the same. If you insult us, you don’t get our votes. By the way, there are 16 million Confederate descendants in the U.S. today. It’s time for us to get organized.

    Stogie (df3219)

  35. With it gone, it’s one less arrow in the narrative for Dems to sling at Republicans.

    Dana (86e864)

  36. Dana -‘that won’t change a single thing.

    JD (3b5483)

  37. Sorry to break this to you, Stogie, but when you’ve lost Walmart, it’s worse than Sherman’s March. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/06/22/walmart-confederate-flag/29133531/

    nk (dbc370)

  38. I don’t understand the leftist urge to commit worthless acts of idiocy after some idjits go off their nut.

    I recall reading the San Diego Union-Tribune back in the aftermath of the murder of James Byrd.

    In the same, single issue of that paper there were three articles/editorials. One railed against Texas for not having a hate crime statute. Supposedly that would have prevented Byrd’s murder.

    Another article observed two of Byrd’s murderers had been sentenced to death (at least one has been executed) and another sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole.

    And an opinion piece basically called Texas barbaric for executing too many killers.

    I’ve never understood why it’s more heinous for some cold blooded murderer to kill you because he doesn’t lie the color of your skin than it is for another cold blooded murderer you to kill you for your Nikes. Or just for fun.

    But that single issue of that paper seemed to distill the cognitive dissonance of the left.

    Hey, I know, kids! Let’s have more pretend gun-free zones! Like the one at Emmanuel AME church in Charleston.

    And if we only ban the Confederate flag, we’ll have no more racists.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  39. Some race-driven incidents don’t get the same attention. Race-driven actions are only covered when they advance Teh Narrative.

    JD (3b5483)

  40. Stogie, ah say Stogie, son… Pay attention to me boy! I’m not just talkin’ to hear my head roar. Stop, I say stop it, son, you’re doin’ alot of choppin’ but no chips are flyin’… Your approach is about as subtle as a hand grenade in a barrrel of oat meal

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. A couple summers ago I found a friend who was actually willing to accompany me on a trip with the specific purpose to chart and follow the journey of one of my civil War ancestors who served with the 115th Ohio. The end of the road for us was Andersonville Prison where he was held until April of 1865. (Fortunately, for him, it was not the end of the road, because he barely, miraculously, survived that horror.) A few days earlier I had been able to locate the exact mile marker of the block house on the Nashville and Chattanooga RR in LaVergne TN where he was captured and taken prisoner by Confederate forces in late 1864.

    During those two weeks traveling mostly in the south we also visited a number of battlefields, museums and cemeteries and saw many town squares with monuments listing names of their confederate dead. I came away remembering that the Civil War, like all wars, was started and inflamed by politicians who enticed/sent beautiful young men off to fight. The ones killed in battle or from disease were very loved and missed by their families. It must have been even harder for southerners to know their brave sons and husbands died for a lost and wrong cause. But that was then. Lincoln and Grant did all they could to be decent to the South. The south has survived and thrived in many ways. The defiant trappings and use of the confederate flag in marches and on banners and souvenir mugs and bikini tops in modern times just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me other than to be purposefully divisive.

    elissa (b5a7fd)

  42. When loony liberalism and political correctness gone berserk were not a part of the American landscape, the image of the Confederate flag and its cultural trappings would have made me wince. But in 2015, I now wince at the idiocy of Nidal-Hassan-ism. Everything else now seems like BS and background noise.

    Mark (a11af2)

  43. California needs to reconsider its flag. California grizzly — extinct. California Republic — also extinct. But what would be the new symbol? An upside-down Evian bottle with the last drop dripping out?

    nk, were you just joking very presciently here or did you actually read about the Chicano power folks who are trying to get the California flag changed because the symbol reminds them that whitey screwed over the Californios of Mexican heritage when the state came under the protection of the U.S.?

    It’s as if no matter how far-fetched a scenario you can conceive, California leftists have already come up with it on their own.

    JVW (8278a3)

  44. 43. …The south has survived and thrived in many ways. The defiant trappings and use of the confederate flag in marches and on banners and souvenir mugs and bikini tops in modern times just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me other than to be purposefully divisive.

    elissa (b5a7fd) — 6/22/2015 @ 9:06 pm

    I mostly agree. This may be a dangerous thing to say now that I live in Tejas, but I’m Yankee through and through. My whole family has been, ever since we got off the boat. We had nothing to do with the Civil War, because we didn’t descend from the Mayflower but Ellis Island. We’ve waist deep in everything from WWI up until now, though.

    Ellis Island ain’t exactly the heart of Dixie.

    And by Yankee, I mean Yankee. My dad joined the USCG during WWII from Rhode Island. When I started grade school I was the only one in my class with basically a Boston accent. “Hey, you gotta quahtah?”

    I’m over it now.

    But I have no problem with unofficial displays of the confederate flag. The official state displays need to stop, though.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  45. * the only one in my class in Kali with…

    I didn’t even realize I was talking funny.

    What did I know? I was six.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  46. But when you’ve lost Walmart, it’s worse than Sherman’s March.

    Perhaps set against the backdrop of such merchandise being made in China?

    We should all unfurl the American flag — while tossing aside the Confederate one — as we zoom along that road paved with good intentions.

    Mark (a11af2)

  47. I see many comments by people too stupid to see it won’t stop with the so-called Confederate flag. They’ll get around to banning the Stars and Stripes. After all, it flew over Racist America for centuries.

    Haven’t you learned yet that the left NEVER STOPS?

    DN (78a7ed)

  48. Mark – do Confederates donate to charity? Are they compassionate for compassionate sake?

    JD (3b5483)

  49. No, JVW. I was looking over the state flags and I couldn’t decide whether I liked Wyoming’s buffalo or California’s bear better and it went on from there. But I wouldn’t mind giving California back to Mexico, except for the Sequoias. Sequoias are way too precious to give up.

    nk (dbc370)

  50. New Mexico has the prettiest flag, for my money.

    JVW (8278a3)

  51. Steve57@47
    They were the ones talking funny.

    After 45 years of living among New Yorkers, Cubans, and actual Southerners, I do not have an obvious accent, but it remains there and noticeable at times. May be moving back to Boston in a year or so. In two weeks I will be visiting, staying at an uncle in Belmont, not very far from Mitt.

    But I have no problem with unofficial displays of the confederate flag. The official state displays need to stop, though.
    The sane and reasonable view. Therefore the least likely result.

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  52. 49. I see many comments by people too stupid to see it won’t stop with the so-called Confederate flag. They’ll get around to banning the Stars and Stripes. After all, it flew over Racist America for centuries.

    Haven’t you learned yet that the left NEVER STOPS?
    DN (78a7ed) — 6/22/2015 @ 9:30 pm

    I realize the left never stops. Please see here:

    http://patterico.com/2015/06/20/the-silver-lining-to-that-dark-cloud-bearing-the-mile-wide-destructive-tornado/

    And especially here:

    http://patterico.com/2015/06/18/eugene-volokh-pushes-back-against-university-of-californias-advisement-to-avoid-microaggressions/

    For my comments in that regard.

    But that doesn’t mean I have to defend official display of the confederate flag.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  53. This all kabuki theater as usual. We have to do something they cry. But they never do the one thing that would actually help. Give municipalities the power to bring nutters in for observation like we used to. There were plenty of warnings but no-one can do anything until after the event.

    Gazzer (be559b)

  54. It is sad, how many people, who really should know better, think the US Civil War was ONLY about slavery.

    Don (3afcdc)

  55. Mark – do Confederates donate to charity?

    JD, considering how each day brings another round of news illustrating that a wider array of Americans are becoming squish-squish-squishes, then, yes, I’m guessing even good ol’ boy Confederates are becoming beguiled by the siren song of compassion for compassion’s sake.

    That road paved with good intentions is much steeper and more slippery than ever before.

    gallup.com, May 2015: Thirty-one percent of Americans describe their views on social issues as generally liberal, matching the percentage who identify as social conservatives for the first time in Gallup records dating back to 1999. The broad trend has been toward a shrinking conservative advantage, although that was temporarily interrupted during the first two years of Barack Obama’s presidency. Since then, the conservative advantage continued to diminish until it was wiped out this year.

    The newfound parity on social ideology is a result of changes in the way both Democrats and Republicans describe their social views. The May 6-10 Gallup poll finds a new high of 53% of Democrats, including Democratic-leaning independents, describing their views on social issues as liberal.

    Meanwhile, the 53% of Republicans and Republican leaners saying their views on social issues are conservative is the lowest in Gallup’s trend. The drop in Republicans’ self-identified social conservatism has been accompanied by an increase in moderate identification, to 34%, while the percentage identifying as socially liberal has been static near 10%.

    Mark (a11af2)

  56. How is this anyone’s business but South Carolina’s?

    Some people talk about “freedom” and “liberty” and “states’ rights” all the time, but when some controversy arises, the same people rush to put their judgement ahead of those directly concerned with the decision.

    Hypocrites.

    Estragon (ada867)

  57. I mean this sincerely. Who cares? If the battle flag of the Army of North Virginia offends people, then take it down. The South rebelled against the United States of America. The USA won. I have no idea who my people fought for or against, but I have a pretty good idea of who they were and they lost. Thank goodness.

    All I know is I live in the United States and the insane criminal who killed nine people does not represent me or you. The left’s ability to sustain such nonsense is bothersome and tiring and maybe it’s time to stop listening to the left.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  58. Ag80 59.

    You haven’t heard anything yet.

    DN (78a7ed)

  59. Mark – I was joking. Thanks for not disappointing.

    JD (3b5483)

  60. People of Walmart is a meme. http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ NOT SAFE FOR ANYTHING

    nk (dbc370)

  61. 58. How is this anyone’s business but South Carolina’s?

    Some people talk about “freedom” and “liberty” and “states’ rights” all the time, but when some controversy arises, the same people rush to put their judgement ahead of those directly concerned with the decision.

    Hypocrites.

    Estragon (ada867) — 6/22/2015 @ 9:51 pm

    Oh, sorry, Estragon. I didn’t realize my vote was going to count so heavily in the S.C. legislature when I voiced my opinion.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  62. I was joking. Thanks for not disappointing.

    JD, per the trends described in that Gallup poll, please excuse me if I don’t take things quite as jocularly as I otherwise would have in the past or should have today.

    Uncharted, dark waters lie ahead.

    Mark (a11af2)

  63. Thomas went with the Liberals and My Pope went with the Climate changers. WHATAYGONNADO?

    I’m open to suggestions.

    felipe (56556d)

  64. Are you Confederates or Americans. I’m an American.
    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 6/22/2015 @ 7:23 pm

    Make of professional wrestling what you will, but one of the finest adverts I have had the pleasure to watch was one from (I think) the WWF that showed a series of very diverse people who only said I’m an American! I said to myself, ” Damn right!” Thanks, man.

    felipe (56556d)

  65. The confederate flag reminds you to never forget that you lost ignorant southern white trash!

    general meade (04ee98)

  66. off topic and don’t give a darn.
    This piece of feces should be voted out of America, along with all chamber of commerce members. For the life of me I can’t understand why this butt clown gets no coverage here.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420098/john-boehner-crackdown-rebels-harsh
    This man is worse than obama, and besides he is a well known D.C. Drunk. But yet gets a free ride everywhere. Why you like?

    mg (31009b)

  67. http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/gop-civil-war-intense-crackdown-on-conservatives/
    Team republican is a drunk state of mind. They have no chance of getting true conservatives to vote in 2016. The America I grew up with is long gone. And so is my duty to team republican. Adios U.S.A.

    mg (31009b)

  68. “We should rename all towns, streets, restaurants, etc that are in any way related to any Confederate states, armies, generals, etc”

    Schools and military bases make the most sense to me.

    stir (0f3b82)

  69. 67.The confederate flag reminds you to never forget that you lost ignorant southern white trash!

    Note the exclamation point. Note the hate. Hello Perry.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  70. 70.“We should rename all towns, streets, restaurants, etc that are in any way related to any Confederate states, armies, generals, etc”

    We” don’t have that authority since towns, streets and schools are named locally by the folks that live there. Restaurants are named by their owners, not a vote and not a dictatorial politician. Now, OTOH forts, military bases armories etc. are federal so name away.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  71. “I don’t understand the leftist urge to commit worthless acts of idiocy after some idjits go off their nut.”
    I think you missed the point. The point is the leftists make the rest of us commit stupid acts of idiocy.

    Richard Aubrey (f6d8de)

  72. “Schools and military bases make the most sense to me.”

    Thanks for proving our point.

    JD (3b5483)

  73. California needs to reconsider its flag. California grizzly — extinct. California Republic — also extinct. But what would be the new symbol? An upside-down Evian bottle with the last drop dripping out?

    I’m thinking an empty bag of Doritos being blown by a hot wind, backed by some East L.A. barrio loco graffiti. As I was saying to my wife Stinky last night…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  74. I recall perhaps a decade ago there was a brouhaha about the Confederate flag on the SC statehouse. The answer then was to move it to an area adjacent but not on the statehouse per se. TALK ABOUT YOUR SLIPPERY SLOPES! Now even the sight of it is white supremacy and hate speech. Then as stir mentioned we can remove and rename anything bearing a Confederates surname. Then the slippery slope dictates we remove Washington and Jefferson etc. because they were white supremacy slave owners. Then everything should be renamed Dolezal, Jenner, Ayers, Dornan, Fromme and a whole litany of leftist media and academic types.

    Living in a convolution of Animal Farm, 1984 and North Korea is so interesting on a daily basis. So what will the left be “outraged” and b!tch about tomorrow, I wonder?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  75. Fort Hood makes no sense. Not only was he a Confederate general, he was a reckless Confederate general who gave the North a critical victory. His own troops mocked him in song:

    My feet are torn and bloody,
    My heart is full of woe,
    I’m going back to Georgia
    To find my uncle Joe [Johnston].
    You may talk about your Beauregard,
    You may sing of Bobby Lee,
    But the gallant Hood of Texas
    He played hell in Tennessee.

    nk (dbc370)

  76. After the Civil War, in describing its end, Grant wrote: “I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us.”

    It’s always been very hard to properly acknowledge and commemorate the Confederacy’s valor without romanticizing slavery. It’s become harder with each passing generation. For my kids’ generation, for example, they really aren’t aware of, or much interested in, any of the other causes and sources that led to the war, or the very wide variety of opinions among the Southerners who fought it over why exactly they were doing so. They tend to view it as a single-issue black-and-white struggle, for which the Confederate battle flag is the symbol of the South’s position on slavery. So that symbol is entirely abhorrent to them in ways that it’s not to me, or that it was not to my father or grandfather.

    So although I’m not entirely happy with the notion of suppressing the Confederate battle flag this way — it’s a meat-axe solution — I’m inclined to react by trying to find other ways to help educate those of new generations who are willing and able to be educated about the positive aspects of the Confederacy via other historic symbols and means.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  77. I was 14 years old before I learned that Damn and Yankee were 2 different words.

    ropelight (f1e5b5)

  78. nk (#77): Hood was the classic example of the Peter Principle. In command of units up to the size of a division, he was brilliant; beyond, not so much. But by the time he was promoted beyond his level of competency, the South had few alternatives. And you have to admire the courage and tenacity of a man who kept fighting after losing an arm and then a leg.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  79. I’d like to see the SPLC logo banned from public display because of the hateful and divisive ideology of the people it represents, but then there’s that whole free speech thing and that very slippery slope.

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  80. There were many issues which brought on the Civil War, slavery among them. What you ardent anti white supremacists need to remember is at the time slaves were considered property, like your house or your business. How would you respond if Obama threatened to take your home?

    You do also realize the reason we have an overbearing, too powerful federal government today is because the North won. I understand the modern anti-white movement just hates to admit states rights was at the forefront of the war but it was. It was not just a bunch of anti black, racist Rebels. After all they were called “Rebels” were they not? Well, they weren’t rebelling about slavery, they had that. The were rebelling about the federal government sticking it’s nose where it Constitutionally shouldn’t.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  81. once the flag is down the healing will begin!

    poor nikki haley she’s had a hard week but she’s a gonna wash that flag right outta her hair she’s gonna wash that flag right outta her hair

    save the flag though nikki princess lindsay can make a super-cute top out of that

    happyfeet (831175)

  82. A good thing…states rights… was used to defend an evil thing…slavery. And a bad thing…central power…was used to defeat the evil thing. A century later, the same dynamic without the armies, was played out with the civil rights movement.

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  83. Adios U.S.A.

    Current and most likely future trends — socially, demographically and politically — suggest the US is going to be more and more like a nation along the lines of Mexico. Corruption, poverty, crime stagnation, low literacy rates or flat-out illiteracy and never-ending fecklessness, all wrapped around continuous layers of urban-liberal type of politics and politicians. A very bifurcated, banana-republic type of land.

    I’ve pondered in the past what it must be like to be a citizen of a nation similar to our neighbor to the south, where one can never be proud of or confident in your fellow citizens, in the society that lies all around that person. Such a reality is coming (increasingly) to a theater near you.

    Mark (a11af2)

  84. at the time slaves were considered property, like your house or your business. How would you respond if Obama threatened to take your home?
    With that rationale, jihadis carting off girls to be sex slaves is not really our business.

    I know you don’t think that, so may I suggest rethinking your original statement is in order?

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  85. Slavery, the sin that never dies in America. Slavery, as old as mankind yet only white Americans are carrying it constantly like a scarlet letter. Slavery, existed in almost every country and ours shed a particular amount of blood to end it, but that don’t count for sh!t, we’re racists. Slavery, hasn’t existed here for about 150 years yet a day doesn’t go by where someone on some show doesn’t b!tch about it. Slavery, not one American alive has been one and not one American alive has owned one but you’d never know by the constant conversation. Slavery, still exists in parts of the world but it’s more profitable to make n issue out of the non-existent slavery in America than to try and free people in the Middle East. Slavery, the sin that never ends in America and that lines the pockets of white and black race-baiters alike. Slavery, for an institution which no longer exists here it sure is profitable.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  86. I blame Harriet Beecher Stowe and so did Abraham Lincoln: “So you’re the little woman who wrote the book that made this great war.” History is that version of past events that people agree on. Next Monday, Anthony Kennedy and four other Justices will agree that the Civil War was fought so that Harriet Beecher Stowe could marry Harriet Tubman. And every state, county and municipal official that issues marriage licenses and registers marriages will have to agree with them.

    nk (dbc370)

  87. I know you don’t think that, so may I suggest rethinking your original statement is in order?

    Are you saying slaves were not considered property, kishnevi?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  88. And exactly what, may I ask, are you going to do about girls being carried off as sex slaves by jihadists, kishnevi? Tell me, pray tell.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  89. Whether slaves were property was a question of state law and differed from state to state. The U.S. Constitution only distinguished between free persons, Indians not taxed, persons bound to service for a term of years, and “all other persons”. Emphasis on “persons”.

    nk (dbc370)

  90. As Iowahawk wrote, “Now that this flag debate is over, maybe we can ask what’s driving black families to flee the North for the South.”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. Much like suttee in india, we are expected not to say much

    narciso (bcc59c)

  92. @82, Well said, Mr. Hoagie.

    Slavery, repugnant and immoral, was legal even in Union loyal Delaware and Missouri. It was a states’ rights conflict, slavery being the most notorious and the prime, but not sole, right and motivation of the first four states to secede. Virginia resisted until they saw that the central government had decided its will and mission (which was not abolition or emancipation) would be imposed at all costs.

    Lincoln wanted war. From his letter to Captain Gustavus Fox:

    “You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort-Sumpter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result. Very truly your friend A. LINCOLN.” This, after the Star of the West incident and Governor Pickens’ warning.

    Why? From History.com:

    “As early as March 1861, Lincoln had begun to take stock of the federal government’s ability to wage war against the South. He sent letters to cabinet members Edward Bates, Gideon Welles and Salmon Chase requesting their opinions as to whether or not the president had the constitutional authority to “collect [such] duties.” According to documents housed and interpreted by the Library of Congress, Lincoln was particularly concerned about maintaining federal authority over collecting revenue from ports along the southeastern seaboard, which he worried, might fall under the control of the Confederacy.

    Matador (1f55cc)

  93. R.I.P. Dick Van Patten

    Icy (b9ca41)

  94. Today it’s the Dixie Cross, and as sure as day follows night, tomorrow it’ll be Ol’ Glory.

    ropelight (f1e5b5)

  95. I’ll have to buy one while they’re still available. Just to be a negatroid.

    mojo (a3d457)

  96. I think, let the flag come down if that’s what the people of the state want. But do not do so because you are knuckling under to the extreme pressure being exerted by the political operatives on the left. Do not let their Howls of Outrage be the guide.

    Just step back and it’s not hard to see that ultimately, this is Rule 12 in action. It’s far less about the flag itself and more about the left’s tactic to diminish and shame, and polarize the Southern conservative voting bloc and their sphere of influence.

    Dana (86e864)

  97. A photo suggesting Cruz should be shot is okay but a flag is dangerous. I’m so confused.

    AZ Bob (7d2a2c)

  98. Thomas is the Court’s only African American. Much has been made of his rejection of contemporary civil-rights orthodoxy. But it is equally clear that Thomas retains vivid and bitter memories of his poverty-stricken childhood in the Jim Crow South—and that he retains a particular hatred for the symbols of Southern white supremacy

    I hope this isn’t why Justice Thomas decided this case. If so, he should have recused himself for bias or the appearance of bias — when a reasonable, disinterested observed would think he might be.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  99. 78. After the Civil War, in describing its end, Grant wrote: “I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us.”

    It’s always been very hard to properly acknowledge and commemorate the Confederacy’s valor without romanticizing slavery…

    Beldar (fa637a) — 6/23/2015 @ 7:16 am

    Some causes are horrible. Yet, not everyone on the wrong side is horrible; some are respectable.

    It’s ironic. People like me who join the a country’s naval or military forces are supposed to be mind-numbed robots trained to dehumanize an enemy. Yet, if that enemy fights well that tends too humanize them.

    For example, Russell Sydnor Crenshaw wrote (gunnery officer/XO in USS Maury during the Guadalcanal/Solomons campaign and later author of South Pacific Destroyer, Naval Shiphandling, and The Battle of Tassafaronga) they had been told the Japanese were buck-toothed, near-sighted weaklings. They found they were anything but. They were good at what they did.

    Even American admirals had to admit, Raizo Tanaka was a freakin’ god. And everyone was happy when the high command sidelined him over a policy dispute.*

    Today I see the Akebono flying off the fantail of a Japanese ship…

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/61229055_50b4d562b4.jpg

    …I’m happy to see it. I’m glad they’re on our side this time.

    But there are WWII vets who will never get over the atrocities the Japanese committed in WWII. I can’t blame them.

    I can certainly understand how different people can view the confederate battle flag all sorts of different ways.

    *The policy dispute was over the fact Tanaka recognized the Japanese were doing too little too late. They were feeding troops a few hundred at a time into the buzzsaw of Guadalcanal. Tanaka saw this was inadequate, and basically said they needed to go big or go home. Either go in with overwhelming force, or pull out. Instead, the Japanese HQ pulled Tanaka out and lost Guadalcanal anyway.

    Ironically, the failed Japanese strategy of too little, too late is President Clausewitz von Prom Queen Obama’s plan for Iraq.

    Steve57 (48418e)

  100. In 1962, during [Democrat Fritz] Hollings’ term as Governor, the Confederate battle flag was raised above the South Carolina Statehouse underneath the U.S. and state flags where it would remain for thirty-eight years.

    Fritz Hollings oversaw the last executions in South Carolina before the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision in Furman v. Georgia, which temporarily banned capital punishment. During his term, eight inmates were put to death by electric chair. The last was rapist Douglas Thorne, on April 20, 1962.[18]

    That’s going to be interesting. South Carolina would have to reinstall the death penalty which hasn’t been used since before the Confederate flag flew over the State House in order to use it on the “forgiven” Roof.

    We’ll see how deep this forgiveness actually is.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  101. #99, Bob, I share your confusion, but it all began to make perfect sense after Susan Rice explained that a video tape of Sarah Palin using a German camera to take pictures of the U-2 from her front porch in Wasilla inexplicably revealed she was secretly sewing Confederate battle flags for David Koresch.

    ropelight (f1e5b5)

  102. I admit i didnt know about him, that was probably whymacarthur’s kangaroo court of yamashita ranckles still,he took the blame for some viciousjapanese princelings,

    narciso (bcc59c)

  103. The Confederate flag looks like a set of suspenders holding up a set of old timey red long johns.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  104. Late to the party as usual (I have a life :-) )…

    #8 Hoagie “Now I can understand it in a historical context like at museums or Civil War memorials and forts.”

    #14 nk almost got it… “The stupid thing is not flying over the state capitol dome. The real South Carolina flag is a crescent and a palm tree — like it was Morocco or something. It’s somewhere on the capitol grounds.”

    The flag is flying over a “stupid” Confederate Veterans Memorial which is on the state grounds. Is that historical enough?

    We’ve held joint vet celebrations with German and Japanese vets, Viet vets are taking tours of Ho Chi Minh City, but somebody still has a hard-on for the descendents of Confederate soldiers, or at least for anyone who honors their sacrifice.

    Go ahead, fold on this. Saul has another one in the wings.

    bdu (30d398)

  105. Yeah, my daughter told me that the palm tree (with a snake wrapped around it) was the secession banner of the first state to secede from the Union. I blame the public schools and Common Core for teaching her history. But she agrees with me that the present-day flag with the crescent moon looks like a Muslim country’s.

    nk (dbc370)

  106. “Whether slaves were property was a question of state law and differed from state to state”

    This was something the confederates claimed was not the case — they claimed the constitution protected their property in other states. They were not fans of state’s rights on this one.

    stir (0f3b82)

  107. Imdw – bless your little heart, aren’t you just special.

    JD (3b5483)

  108. they claimed the constitution protected their property in other states. They were not fans of state’s rights on this one.

    Actually that’s part of state’s rights among others. Ones property should be secure regardless of what state he takes it to or which it’s in. Jersey can’t seize my car when I cross the bridge just because it’s got a PA tag on it. It’s still my car regardless.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  109. Owning people is different than owning cars. That’s the whole point. Thankfully, that side lost.

    stir (0f3b82)

  110. DRJ @ 100,

    I wondered about that. At the Atlantic link, the law professor cites an interaction during Virginia v. Black that led him to his conclusion re Justice Thomas:

    The state, and the federal government, were defending the cross ban as a regulation of “true threats,” which the First Amendment does not protect. But Thomas interrupted this line of argument to ask, “[A]ren’t you understating the—the effects of—of the burning cross? … [W]e had almost 100 years of lynching and activity in the South by the Knights of Camellia and—and the Ku Klux Klan, and this was a reign of terror and the cross was a symbol of that reign of terror. Was—isn’t that significantly greater than intimidation or a threat?”


    The lawyer representing the cross burners emailed the law prof his recollection from the court:

    I have never seen the atmosphere in a courtroom change so quickly. Justice Breyer, who sat next to Justice Thomas, put his arm on him, as if to say “I feel your pain.” Justice Scalia was staring at Thomas with extraordinary intensity—the sense of empathy and support was virtually palpable. Justice Scalia’s eyes left his friend Justice Thomas and he looked down and scowled at me, as I was only minutes from getting up to make my argument, and I immediately knew, from his look, that his views on the entire case had just pivoted, and that he was about to come after me—which proved entirely prescient.


    So does that prove a bias, and further, did that bias influence and/or sway the other justices?

    Dana (86e864)

  111. Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3, of the Constitution. The fugitive slave clause. It also applied to indentured servants and apprentices. States had to return “persons bound to service or labor” to their masters in another state. It was the reason the Underground Railroad needed to work in secret in Illinois as well as in Tennessee. The Fugitive Slave Acts broadened it to include Territories. It was also the reason Dred Scott lost. Nonetheless, they were still “persons” and not horses, chairs or pocketknives.

    nk (dbc370)

  112. Does anyone besides me think the Southern white voting bloc is being Alynskied with the Confederate flag the convenient and necessary vehicle???

    Dana (86e864)

  113. Dana – yes. Look at how the mob has turned their collective outrage towards retailers, eBay, Amazon, etc. they are trying to make it so private parties can’t even choose to purchase a rebel flag. But Hitler and Che and Lenin memorabilia is just fine.

    JD (3b5483)

  114. Yes, but the Confederate flag crowd easy to Alinsky. Low-hanging fruit. Very low. I’m sorry the Party of Abraham Lincoln “needs” them.

    nk (dbc370)

  115. *is* easy

    nk (dbc370)

  116. Burning a flag is protected as free speech. Flying it is apparently another matter.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  117. President Clausewitz von Prom Queen Obama’s plan for Iraq.
    I do not think he has a plan, but merely a hope that he does not have to involve himself in Iraq more than he already is.

    South Carolina would have to reinstall the death penalty which hasn’t been used since before the Confederate flag flew over the State House in order to use it on the “forgiven” Roof
    If S. Carolina does not have a death penalty on the books now, Roof could not be given a death sentence in a state trial because of the [US] Constitution’s ban on ex post facto laws. Of course, like the OKC and Boston Marathon bombers, he could be tried in the Federal system where the death penalty already exists.

    kishnevi (93670d)

  118. South Carolina has the death penalty, kishnevi. It was reinstated after Georgia vs Furman. According to Wiki, the last person executed in South Carolina was in 2011.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  119. DRJ, thanks.

    kishnevi (93670d)

  120. JD @ 38,

    I was being sarcastic at 37. Should have used a sarc tag…

    Dana (86e864)

  121. Personally I think it is about freakin’ time the Confederate Flag was put into the bin of history (i spent half of adolescence in the South). It is not something worth fighting about.

    What is worth fighting is privileged white people for the Washington Post deeming people like Gov Jindall as “not Indian enough”. Next the NYTimes will do a piece on how Gov Hally is “not Indian enough”. Yet conservatives and non-democrats are the racist, like the Republicans George Wallace.

    seeRpea (0cf003)

  122. Even Six Flags Over Taxes flies the Stars and Bars, not the battle flag, DRJ. https://ayearofholidays.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/six-flags-over-texas.jpg And you know that the French would be offended by the Fleur de Lis, right? They call it “the King’s flag”. Disdainfully. The real French flag is the Tricolor. 😉

    I think the majority was correct in Walker. There is private property, public property open to the general public, and government property dedicated to the purposes of government and not for general public use. I think that the government has more control over speech in that third space. I can also picture black prisoners at Wynne bringing a Section 1983 suit for being forced to stamp out the Sons of the Confederacy plates.

    nk (dbc370)

  123. Seriously? Seriously

    http://www.vulture.com/2015/06/dukes-hazzard-confederate-flag-warner-bros-stop-licensing.html

    The studio behind The Dukes of Hazzard has become the latest corporate giant to get out of the Confederate flag business. Vulture has learned exclusively that Warner Bros.’ consumer licensing division — which for decades has licensed images of the Duke brothers’ iconic General Lee car for use on everything from T-shirts and model cars to lunch boxes and kids’ underwear — has opted to stop sanctioning the manufacturing of any products featuring the stars and bars…

    I was only half joking @28. I will fight you at this point.

    Seriously?

    Steve57 (ec1eac)

  124. Depending on the paint scheme of a particular ’69 Charger, I may or may not be a racist

    Dyllan Roof, endorsed by Warner Bros.

    Steve57 (ec1eac)

  125. All the remaining living actor from the the Dukes of Hazzard are currently being hunted down so they can apologize in a Maoist struggle session for their sin of being actors in the Dukes of Hazzard.

    Then they’ll burn the General Lee in effigy.

    Can’t you just feel the freakin’ racial healing?

    Steve57 (ec1eac)

  126. Is Woodrow Wilson next on the hit list?

    seeRpea (0cf003)

  127. Does anyone besides me think the Southern white voting bloc is being Alynskied with the Confederate flag the convenient and necessary vehicle???

    Probably.

    What’s really telling and galling is that plenty of the people in the pro-Alinksy crowd — who deem themselves as so very tolerant, open-minded and sophisticated about race and ethnicity (compared with dem thar white crackers in the deep South, with their trashy Confederate flags and all) — would be mortified if they had to pack up and move to cities like Detroit, Michigan, or neighborhoods like the southside of Chicago, Oakland in the SF Bay Area, Harlem in upper Manhattan, South-Central Los Angeles, etc.

    Mark (a11af2)

  128. Beldar has the truth of it. The Confederate battle flag has come to represent slavery. That is the gut meaning and most people don’t know (or care) about the historical meaning, the issues of 1860, or any of that rot. You’re arguing left-brain issues to right-brain people.

    You say all these things and they hear “Blah blah blah slavery.” In truth we harm our cause by conflating it (whatever it is) with that hated flag.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  129. We aren’t harming our cause by pointing out that they are modern day book burners Kevin. In a span of about 3 days it went from “we don’t want it on public property” to now pressuring the biggest retailers in the world to not sell an effin symbol. We can now burn the American flag, but not buy a confederate flag. It will never end with them.

    JD (3b5483)

  130. About the flag and now the retailers and other businesses that refuse to either make or distribute it.
    This has been a test. Had it been an actual alert the left would have ginned up a kerfuffle about fire arms and the government would ban them an retailers stop selling them and it all would be over. This is only a test to see if they can Alinsky us into servitude.

    And so far it’s working better than they ever dreamed. In only 3 days the flag was banned. Funny how when leftists burn a US flag it’s “speech” but just owning a Rebel flag is “racism”. Seems when the left don’t like your speech it is discardable.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  131. And on the lighter side: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/06/23/every-state-flag-is-wrong-and-here-is-why/

    I liked the Virginia caption best, but the Texas one is snark level 10.

    nk (dbc370)

  132. And it’s making the Wapo SJWs in the comments apoplectic for mocking such a serious issue at such a serious time, seriously.

    nk (dbc370)

  133. FYI, the Confederate Battle Flag (the one with the big blue X) shouldn’t be referred to as the Stars and Bars. That’s a different flag, one specifically designed and officially adopted to emphasize the Confederacy’s previous relationship to the Union. In fact, the flag was so similar to the Union’s Stars and Stripes that during the first big battle (First Manassas/Bull Run) in the smoke and confusion on the battlefield soldiers on both sides were unable to distinguish one flag from the other and often rallied around the opponent’s flag, especially when the flags hung limply in light winds.

    After First Manassas the Army of Northern Virginia (ANV) – the one Robert E Lee would eventually come to command – adopted the distinctive Dixie Cross to avoid confusion on the battlefield. As the war progressed the Confederacy’s flag evolved to the Stainless Banner and then the Blood Stained Banner. But these were the official flags of the Confederacy itself, the ANV’s battle flag remained unchanged.

    Although it has come to be recognized as the Confederate Flag, during the war the Dixie Cross was always simply the ANV’s battle flag, and never represented the Confederated States. However, the Dixie Cross was such a powerful and easily recognized symbol of adamant resistance to overreaching federal authority that after the war it was used to rally support against the retaliatory retributions, outrageous excesses, and illegal persecutions of so-called Reconstruction.

    Additionally, the KKK used it to symbolize their opposition to equal treatment and integration for former slaves. Unfortunately, in the minds of too many uninformed Americans that particular abuse has become so dominant that historical facts fade into irrelevance and insignificance in the face of emotional response to the evils of slavery. They see the Dixie Cross as an easy target, an emblem of slavery, and want it banned, as if denying a symbol will eliminate citizen resistance to federal government erosion of protected Constitutional rights.

    The Dixie Cross itself has it’s roots in Scotland’s Cross of Saint Andrew, which is also incorporated into the flag of Great Britain along with the Cross of Saint George and the Cross of Saint Patrick – to symbolize the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, and Ireland.

    ropelight (173355)

  134. They are not social justice warriors, nk. Merriam-Webster still defines a warrior as : a person who fights in battles and is known for having courage and skill. As in a soldier.

    Lets call them what they are–social justice bullies.

    elissa (3c18c0)

  135. SJW has become a term of derision with younger people, elissa. Along with Tumblrina. The daughter calls them Smooth Jazz Waluigis.

    nk (dbc370)

  136. The Confederate battle flag has come to represent slavery.

    Not to me. Not to a lot of others.

    Who is to say this interpretation – The battle flag honors brave men who peaceably resolved to govern themselves differently and, when told by their betters they could not and did not dare do so. It honors those had the balls to defend itself, against overwhelming odds, from an invader whose purpose was keeping their trough full regardless of the means, against overwhelming odds – is any less valid?

    That Battle flag, or any Confederate flag for that matter, never secured passage of a slave ship from New England to Africa and back. Does the US flag that did represent slavery? Of course not.

    MD @35 could have been talking about me. I grew up in those “northern boonies of Pennsylvania”. In many ways it was the South without the great weather. Conservative, religious, courteous, largely self-reliant and rural. The President would call them Bitter Clingers. The battle flag is proudly displayed as a middle finger to big government, liberalism and political correctness. Racism don’t enter into it. Never did in my experience. I guess you could say those folks have co-opted that symbol of slavery and bastardized it.

    In the end, the people of South Carolina will decide this for themselves, as they should. It won’t be easy, as both houses need a two thirds majority to und0 the compromise made when they moved it from the Capitol to the memorial.

    Matador (1f55cc)

  137. I’m with Matador. I’m from Philly and since I was a kid the Rebel flag has never symbolized slavery to be. It symbolized defiance and self determination but not slavery. I’ve known people both here and in Texas who had the Rebel flag in their home, car, truck and tattoos, wall, paintings etc. and none were racists. Defiant, gun totin’, bible quotin’, rugged individual Americans, but not a racist among them. And none owned slaves.

    I am so sick of this slavery sh!t. You would think the only country on earth where there were slaves was America. And the way they b!tch you’d think there still is. News flash, there haven’t been slaves nor slave owners here for 150 years. When is enough, enough? Get the hell over it already. All these people b!tchin’ were never slaves and all the people they b!tch about never owned a slave. How is it somehow noble to hold whites responsible for something that they never did and which occurred before they were even born?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  138. That WaPo flag article is great, nk.

    DRJ (76a58a)

  139. That WaPo article wants $69 to read it.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  140. it’s a trick don’t fall for it

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  141. California Republic — so people won’t think it’s Russia. ROFL

    nk (dbc370)

  142. No way, Hoagie. Clear your cache and cookies and try again. If you’re still having problems, go through Instapundit’s link http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/209232/ And run your anti-virus.

    nk (dbc370)

  143. You called it, nk. Thanks.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  144. re #138 & 139: maybe education in the South about the Civil War roots was more honest during the 70s than elsewhere. Have you read The Causes Declaration of any of the Seceding States?
    Further more, does the name General Forrest mean anything to you? Do you realize what he did at Fort Pillow “wrapped in the flag” of the Confederacy? As I wrote earlier , good riddance to the Confederate Flag and all it stood for. I’ll take a strong federal any day over that mess, which had nothing to with ‘States Rights’. ‘States Rights’ was a cover story by a few who were uncomfortable with the situation but loyal to their region, and a rediscovered excuse a hundred years later. The Southern States did not believe in ‘States Rights’ when it got in the way of their keeping slaves.

    I wonder, how many times have you seen a black person waving the Confederate Flag?

    All that being said, it does not let the non-South off the hook when it comes to slavery, especially slavery based on tribal affiliations and color as it was and is on the African Continent and large parts of SouthEast Asia. Russia (and their ilk) can make their own deal with the devil when it comes to their history of serfdom.

    seeRpea (0cf003)

  145. Defending a flag that represents slavery and racism is a great way for the Republicans to take national offices. As always, these silly little battles are a fine barometer for what we should stand for.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  146. it does not let the non-South off the hook when it comes to slavery

    Exactly what “hook” am I on, seeRpea? I do not nor have I ever owned slaves. As far as I now slavery has been illegal for 150 years here so what the hell hook is anybody alive today on? You’d have to be a world class anti white racist to put anybody on the “hook” for something they never participated in.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  147. Republicans are not “defending a flag that represents slavery and racism”, where did you dig up that lie carlitos? Exactly which Republican is stating we should all fly the Rebel flag in the name of slavey and racism? Name one. Remember, it was the Republicans under the first Republican President who defeated the racist, slave owning Sothern Democrats in the Civil War. You are aware of that, aren’t you carlitos?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  148. Thanks for the info, ropelight,
    and I’m with Matador and Rev. Hoagie on what the flag stands for in the eyes of many, as simply saying we will not be told what to do, a southern version of “Don’t tread on me”.

    Now, whether throughout history it was more a symbol of slavery to most people and the simple “don’t boss me around” is a minor aberration or the opposite, in one way it makes little difference. Most symbols over time become symbols for different things, but rarely is the public interested in careful thought to understand that.

    For example, I have it on real good authority that the rainbow originally meant the God would never destroy the earth again by a flood (it said nothing about by fire, though),
    and now I guess it means that everyone can live together in peace if you’ll just be tolerant, accepting, celebratory of gays.

    I know it seems sometimes there will never be a hill that some will be willing to fight to the death on, but I think there are far better ones than the Dixie Cross.
    For example, I think marriage between a man and wife is one. If you want to affirm some sort of solemn legal contract between SS couples, fine, just don’t change the definition of a word that has been accepted as meaning one thing for centuries and by billions and billions of people because of a minority percentage of people from a small segment of the earth’s population (people of Northern and Western European heritage).

    Talking about colonialism, Obama and his colleagues are incredibly colonialist on cultural issues.

    MD in Philly (522abd)

  149. As nk pointed out at #111 the US Constitution protected slavery and required fugitive slave to be returned to their owners. Consequently, all that was needed to preserve slavery was for the Southern (slave owning) states to remain in the Union since it would have taken a Constitutional Amendment to end the peculiar institution.

    And since in 1860 the previously slave owning states were sufficiently numerous (and remain so today) to overcome the 3/4ths requirement for changes to the Constitution, the safest and most certain way to preserve slavery was to remain in the Union.

    Therefore, it is absurd to argue the Confederate states seceded in order to protect slavery, when the truth is exactly the opposit.

    ropelight (173355)

  150. The Rev Barack Hussein Hoagie wrote:

    You’d have to be a world class anti white racist Democrat to put anybody on the “hook” for something they never participated in.

    FTFY.

    The editor Dana (f6a568)

  151. Republicans are not “defending a flag that represents slavery and racism”, where did you dig up that lie carlitos? Exactly which Republican is stating we should all fly the Rebel flag in the name of slavey and racism? Name one. Remember, it was the Republicans under the first Republican President who defeated the racist, slave owning Sothern Democrats in the Civil War. You are aware of that, aren’t you carlitos?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 6/24/2015 @ 10:21 am

    Capitalizing “Rebel” was a nice touch. If the rebel flag doesn’t represent slavery and racism, please let me know what it does represent. Southern pride, perhaps?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  152. What other symbols should we ban? What other books should we burn? This Puritan ethos is fun.

    JD (2fc8db)

  153. Carlitos – if the south is so awful and racist, why are African Americans moving there in droves for their liberators in the North?

    JD (2fc8db)

  154. Well, JD, we could dynamite Ulysses Grant’s monument in NY city, after all he was a slave owner.

    ropelight (173355)

  155. The question still stands:

    If the rebel flag doesn’t represent slavery and racism, please let me know what it does represent. Southern pride, perhaps?

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 6/24/2015 @ 11:24 am

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  156. this rebel flag is no good

    i like it though

    but that’s cause of i’m a naughty pikachu with antisocial tendencies

    don’t pay me no mind

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  157. it’s less representative of fail america, then old glory at this point, when it comes the tradition of faith, family, and country, it still clings,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  158. En Amérique, il est bon, de temps à autre, pour tuer un drapeau rebelle, à encourager les autres.

    In America, it is good, from time to time, to kill a rebel flag, to encourage the others.

    (With apologies to Voltaire.)

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  159. ==we could dynamite Ulysses Grant’s monument in NY city, after all he was a slave owner.==

    Not really. And please don’t feed into that narrative.

    During the years 1854 to 1859 Grant lived at White Haven Farm in Mo. with his wife, Julia, and their children, managing the farm for his father-in-law, Colonel Dent. At that time no one suspected that Grant would rise from failure and obscurity to achieve the success he gained during the Civil war. However, his experience working alongside the White Haven slaves may have influenced him in his later roles as the Union general who won the war which abolished that “peculiar institution,” and as President of the United States.

    The only evidence that Grant owned a salve is a document he signed in 1859 freeing one, William Jones. William Jones was likely acquired as a “gift” to the Grant family from his father-in-law. At a time when he could have desperately used the money from the sale of Jones, Grant signed a document that gave him his freedom. Grant freed this slave in 1859 when he left White Haven. By all accounts Grant detested slavery.

    elissa (3c18c0)

  160. elissa,

    If Grant freed a slave, how is the statement “he was a slave owner” inaccurate?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  161. US Grant also hated Jews, and so objected to their presumed war profiteering that he banned them from the areas of his military jurisdiction. In December 1862, Grant issued General Order # 11, which expelled Jews from Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi:

    The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the department [the “Department of the Tennessee,” an administrative district of the Union Army of occupation composed of Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.

    Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permit from headquarters. No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits.

    ropelight (173355)

  162. If the rebel flag doesn’t represent slavery and racism, please let me know what it does represent.

    I think it means different things to different people, just as the American flag means different things to different people. Some view the American flag as a symbol of oppression, colonialism, and/or nationalism. Others view it as a source of pride and patriotism in American exceptionalism. In 1977, the House of Representatives viewed Our Flag this way:

    “The star is a symbol of the heavens and the divine goal to which man has aspired from time immemorial; the stripe is symbolic of the rays of light emanating from the sun.”

    I doubt everyone in America views the American flag as symbolic of the divine, just as not everyone views the Confederate flag as symbolic of racism and slavery.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  163. In the 1840s, an anti-slavery soldier from Ohio fell in love with the daughter of a slave-owning gentleman farmer. The soldier became a future American Civil War General and Republican President.

    You tell me what the narrative “Grant was a slaaaaave owner!!!” is all about. Hint: it isn’t meant to be an accurate depiction of either Grant or history, now is it?

    elissa (3c18c0)

  164. By the way, the 1977 House of Representatives was in office the first two years of President Jimmy Carter’s term. It and the Senate had a filibuster-proof Democratic majority, so this was Democrats and not Republicans who went out of their way to insert God into secular government.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  165. ‘narratives’ aren’t about truth, and this campaign is not about the flag, but as Dana points out, Alinskying the GOP’s base,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  166. Either the guy owned slaves or he didn’t. I’m guessing that he at least owned the dude that he freed.

    This was the first I have heard of General Order #11. Yikes.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  167. Capitalizing “Rebel” was a nice touch. If the rebel flag doesn’t represent slavery and racism, please let me know what it does represent. Southern pride, perhaps?

    I figured in that case rebel would be capitalized since I used it to represent an army, a Rebel army. So I guess I was wrong. My, you do think yourself slippery. I wasn’t arguing what you or anybody else thinks the flag represents, I was asking: “154.Republicans are not “defending a flag that represents slavery and racism”, where did you dig up that lie carlitos? Exactly which Republican is stating we should all fly the Rebel flag in the name of slavery and racism? Name one. “.

    You accused Republicans of “defending a flag that represents slavery and racism” did you not? And you did it fully knowing it was the democrats who historically did defend those horrible, racist things. Don’t try and change the subject, carlitos.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  168. Enjoy yourself, Carlitos. Yes, after receiving a “gift” of a single slave Grant was the “owner” until the first opportunity he had where he could logistically do the thing that he felt in his heart was right and legally freed him. When history legitimately records the travesty of “selling and owning slaves” do you think Grant’s situation is what we are referring to? Of course you don’t.

    elissa (3c18c0)

  169. carlitos, it’s only fair to mention that once the negative public reaction to Grant’s #11 reached President Lincoln he demanded an immediate explanation. Grant subsequently blamed subordinates and claimed he had signed the order without ever reading it.

    ropelight (173355)

  170. So now, because some dude gave grant a slave which he freed, Grant himself is and racist slaveholder? Are you people looking for and expecting to find the “Perfect Person”. Or is the object of this Alinsky inspired racist exercise to eliminate all the Founding Fathers, all American history and fold up the country 150 years after the fact for being a racist pit of hate and oppression?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  171. What about Julia Dent’s slaves? Grant married her and she kept her slaves.

    ropelight (173355)

  172. Yes, ropelight! Racist by injection! A whole new area for the left to b!tch about.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  173. Obama must be proud. Look how he’s made America a post-racial nation. Wow. People rippin’ at each other over friggin’ history. News flash. You can b!tch all you want, call names, burn flags books or racists at the stake if you want but just like Bruce Jenner can’t change his sex, you can’t change history.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  174. Did Julia Grant own slaves? She certainly had 4 personal “servants’ provided by her father while growing up and at the farm. There is controversy as to her ownership.

    Several of these enslaved people were children in the 1830s and 40s, which Col. Dent “gave” to Julia and her siblings. They grew up together, frolicking about White Haven.

    But, there is no known record that Col. Dent ever legally transferred ownership to Julia. In addition there is a letter sent from Ulysses to Julia from a camp near Corinth, Mississippi, dated May 16, 1862, in which he wrote:

    “Your father sent Emma [Julia’s other younger sister] a bill of sale for the negroes he gave her. To avoid a possibility of any of them being sold he ought to do the same with all the balance. I would not give anything for you to have any of them as it is not probable we will ever live in a slave state again but would not like to see them sold under the hammer.”[9]

    http://www.yandtblog.com/?p=298

    elissa (3c18c0)

  175. If you find General Order 11 offensive, look up the Corwin Amendment. It doesn’t involve Grant but it shows how what Civil War-era Congress and legislatures of Ohio, Maryland, and Illinois felt about slavery.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  176. During the war Abraham Lincoln wrote to Horace Greeley on August 22nd 1862 in response to Greeley’s complaint that Lincoln’s prosecution of the war seemed to lack direction and resolve. The following is an excerpt:

    My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

    I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

    Yours,
    A. Lincoln.

    ropelight (173355)

  177. IIRC, Lincoln himself supported the Corwin Amendment, or at least didn’t have an objection to its being made permanent.

    Dana (86e864)

  178. True, Seward, was the real abolitionist, but events drove him to take the path to dismantle the institution, root and branch

    narciso (ee1f88)

  179. In related news, Ben Affleck and “Finding Your Roots” gets nailed.

    The Finding Your Roots” episode that omitted references to Ben Affleck’s ancestor as a slave owner violated PBS standards, the public TV service said Wednesday.

    The public TV service launched an investigation after it was reported that Affleck requested the program not reveal his ancestor was a slave holder in the 2014 episode. The Associated Press examined historical documents and found that Ben Affleck’s great-great-great grandfather owned 24 slaves.

    In a statement Wednesday, PBS said it’s postponing the show’s third season and delaying a commitment to a fourth year until it’s satisfied with improvement in the show’s editorial standards.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/tv/ct-pbs-finding-your-roots-affleck-episode-violated-standards-20150624-story.html

    elissa (3c18c0)

  180. “And since in 1860 the previously slave owning states were sufficiently numerous (and remain so today) to overcome the 3/4ths requirement for changes to the Constitution, the safest and most certain way to preserve slavery was to remain in the Union.

    Therefore, it is absurd to argue the Confederate states seceded in order to protect slavery, when the truth is exactly the opposit.”

    Congratulations! Your conclusion is the exact opposite of what the historical record shows.

    stir (11ab47)

  181. didn’t further investigations show he had six such ancestors,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  182. Imdw is so cute.

    JD (6b2543)

  183. like a velociraptor,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  184. Somewhere along the line it seems we’ve lost the concept that we’re supposed to learn from history and try not to repeat the errors–not eradicate all mention and visible evidence of the pieces we don’t like.

    elissa (3c18c0)

  185. There were lots of things that dried the tinder. Nat Turner’s rebellion and the Draconian reaction in the South; John Brown and the paranoia that produced; the Kansas-Missouri border wars; the fights over slavery in the territories and whether new states should be admitted only if they abolished slavery; the collapse of both the Whigs and the Democrats in 1860; just some. And I’ve already mentioned Uncle Tom’s Cabin. 😉 But I think, in the end, the War came about for the same reason all wars come about. Because people are a**holes.

    nk (dbc370)

  186. isn’t finding your roots produced by obama’s beer summit butt boy?

    happyfeet (831175)

  187. they did finding your roots for adriane grenier

    that’s SO scraping the bottom of the finding your roots barrel

    he oozes something repelling, that one

    happyfeet (831175)

  188. i heard the Afflecks bought their slave shackles at Walmart

    happyfeet (831175)

  189. yes, that was as ridiculous as Anderson Vanderbilt,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  190. Gee, I missed Andrson’s. I can’t imagine there were a whole lot of “surprises” on that one. Or did they do the paternal side of his family?

    elissa (c3113f)

  191. Gates had initially defended the decision to forget about Affleck’s ancestors’ slave holder past by saying there was just not time to include everything interesting that they’d “uncovered”. They did air a more politically correct segment about Affleck’s mother being a civil rights freedom marcher. Finding your “roots”, huh? Riiight. Ben didn’t know about his mother?

    elissa (c3113f)

  192. like a velociraptor,

    narciso (ee1f88) — 6/24/2015 @ 5:15 pm

    I disagree… more like a toad.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  193. yes, raptors proved valuable in the last film,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  194. Personally, I am supportive of the battle flag being removed from government property. Pulling merchandise off websites and stores is knee jerk hysteria. But the assault on The Duke’s of Hazard iconic General Lee is beyond idiocy and I think is finally showing out this whole lying narrative for the made up insanity it is. John Schneider is fighting back.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dukes-hazzard-star-unfair-say-804933

    elissa (c3113f)

  195. John Schneider is just good people

    happyfeet (831175)

  196. Frankly, my dear, talkin’ Southern should be a criminal offense.

    AZ Bob (34bb80)

  197. Just as Baltimore has been Democrat-governed for 50 years, Jim Crow was Democrat initiated and the Confederate flag is a Democrat flag. They can run, obfuscate and smear BUT THEY CAN’T HIDE.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  198. 158. The question still stands:

    If the rebel flag doesn’t represent slavery and racism, please let me know what it does represent. Southern pride, perhaps?

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 6/24/2015 @ 11:24 am

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 6/24/2015 @ 12:00 pm

    Precisely. Southern Pride. That’s all it represents. Read my comment @101 about the Japanese naval ensign. To American veterans of WWII Japanese flags represent torture, cruelty brutality, fanaticism, and death.

    To residents of Asia in Nanking and thousands of other places you could throw in orgies of mass rape and slaughter.

    But MacArthur, who governed Japan with absolute authority during the occupation, allowed the Japanese to display the Imperial flag again in 1949.

    Re: The Dishonorable Confederate Battle Flag

    …What you call a “whitewash” of the timeless meaning of the Confederate flag I might call the evolution of meaning. I am quite sympathetic to the case for taking offense at the flag, but I am also sympathetic to the southerners who say it doesn’t mean what the offense-takers say it means, at least not anymore. I know many southerners sympathetic to that flag, I know zero southerners who’d like to see the return of slavery or Jim Crow (a few of the Texans might want to secede, though).

    Culture isn’t a science, and symbolism isn’t math; in this realm Rashômon rules. A Jew of a certain era might see the Christian cross as a symbol of persecution, not salvation. But wisdom, experience, and moral imagination tell us that this is not the only or best way to look at a crucifix. The swastika was for thousands of years a benign spiritual symbol — until it wasn’t. Some even want to restore its old meaning, which may one day succeed, many, many, many generations from now — I hope.

    As a matter of reason alone, the United States flag stood for “white supremacy” too, at least when looked at through the eyes of African slaves and Native Americans. But I think everyone here would agree that while that may have once been one of many arguable interpretations of the Stars and Stripes, it no longer is (though I have no doubt there are plenty of professors out there who would like to argue the U.S. flag still stands for white supremacy).

    The more salient issue, to me at least, isn’t “whitewashing” but magnanimity. The South was defeated. It was put under the heel of what it considered a hostile, if not foreign, government. I think history shows that Reconstruction didn’t go far enough or last long enough. But leaving the defeated southerners a symbol, while denying them all of the institutions and laws once associated with it, left open a path for redefining what the South stands for. As I write in my column tomorrow, that was part of Douglas MacArthur’s reasoning in allowing the Japanese to start using the imperial flag once again in 1949. He wanted to maintain enough continuity with the past to let them build a better future. That flag was once synonymous with Pearl Harbor, Bataan, and torture. In America and Japan it no longer is (there’s still work to be done in Korea and China, though)…

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420177/re-dishonorable-confederate-battle-flag-jonah-goldberg

    Many Japanese are justifiably proud of the country that they’ve built out of the ashes of WWII. That pride is what the Japanese flag represents to them. Not the horrors their government and people inflicted on those they conquered during WWII.

    As I said @101:

    … Today I see the Akebono flying off the fantail of a Japanese ship…

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/61229055_50b4d562b4.jpg

    …I’m happy to see it. I’m glad they’re on our side this time …

    The practice of flying the confederate battle flag at state capitols is a racist Dixiecrat practice. Back when the South was thoroughly Democratic it was also thoroughly racist, and after the Brown v. Board of Education decision they started flying the battle flag at state capitols or incorporating it into the state flag to show defiance to desegregation.

    Republicans should be all for removing the confederate battle flag from official state display, and gleefully point out that they are correcting a racist Democrat-dominated state government practice every time they do.

    Between the Civil War and that Dixiecrat period it was just displayed to honor confederate veterans and at reenactments. In other words, just as a display of Southern pride. So it needs to be returned to that use, although Southerners have a different South to be proud of.

    If you want to see real racism, go to Detroit, Chicago, or Baltimore or other places run by Democrats and see what LBJ’s great society has wrought.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-relentless-conservative/the-democratic-partys-two_b_933995.html

    The Democratic Party’s Two-Facedness of Race Relations

    “I’ll have those n*ggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years.”
    ~ Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One

    I had never heard the above quote from Ronald Kessler’s book, Inside the White House before but my father had told me about LBJ’s terrible mouth and frightful personality.

    If you listen to Democrats (many of you do — at least those who watch MSNBC and read the NY Times rabidly), you hear fanciful yarns spun so sweetly about how LBJ ended racism, segregation and voting inequality in America. They make him sound like Mr. Rogers.

    How long will the Democrats continue their absurd charade? All the while claiming Republicans are racist, meanwhile the Democrats are the party clearly responsible for the contemptible Jim Crow laws. Let’s see how proud these secret, racist beliefs make current day Democrats. Let’s see how they like the real truth being told about their party…

    The Democrats need to squeal about a Southern symbol being racist because they are still the practitioners of racism. How was LBJ going to keep those n*****s voting Democratic for 200 years? By making them dependent on government. The Democrats being, of course, the party of government.

    It’s that racism blacks are fleeing when they move to the South in droves.

    The confederate flag is their new shiny object to try and distract people from that reality.

    Steve57 (ec1eac)

  199. Film critic calls for getting rid of Gone With The Wind.

    JD (3b5483)

  200. 1. The flag in question is at a war memorial. It’s the flag the soldiers being remembered fought under. What could be more appropriate? People are now saying the flag should be moved to a museum. Well, isn’t a war memorial a kind of museum? And isn’t it the most appropriate kind of museum for the flag? We now honor enemy dead from long-ago wars, and salute the flags they fought under; why should this be any different?

    And no, it is not like the Nazi flag. Not even slightly. The Confederacy was not the Third Reich. But I note that we do honor German dead from that war, and let the iron cross be displayed over their graves.

    2. Thomas’s vote in the cross-burning case disturbed me. But in Walker I think he was 100% correct, and it needn’t have anything to do with his own feelings about the battle flag. I would have voted the same way, because it seems completely obvious to me that license plates are state speech. Yes, the State of Texas does endorse golf and football teams and all the other things that the dissent can’t believe it would; it does it for the money, just like celebrities who endorse things for money. That Texas will even endorse other states’ football teams makes it a whore, but even whores are entitled to have standards.

    Now if the state left that bit of the license plate blank, and allowed anyone to put whatever they wanted there, then it could not ban the confederate flag, or a swastika, or even a pro-rape message. Because that would be the car owner’s speech, not the state’s.

    3. Although Ropelight’s argument that if the south had not seceded it would have been impossible to abolish slavery makes sense, my impression is that they were afraid Lincoln would treat the constitution much the way 0bama has done, and either make it impossible to own slaves, or punish them until they agreed to abolition.

    But if all Lincoln wanted was to abolish slavery his best strategy would have been to let the south secede, which would leave him with enough votes to abolish it in the remaining United States, which would have the effect of moving the northern terminus of the Underground Railroad from the Canadian border to the USA/CSA border. The northern tier of confederate states would quickly become empty of slaves, leading them over time to become abolitionist, and to campaign for abolition within the CSA.

    Milhouse (a0cc5c)

  201. no, because a nation cannot exist half free and half slave, or as we saw with Jim Crow, for 70 years,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  202. It wouldn’t have to. The USA would have been completely free. The CSA would soon have been half-free, and would have had to sort that out for itself.

    Milhouse (a0cc5c)

  203. yes, and the French and the Brits would have gotten into the act, even more forcefully, because they depended on Southern Cotton,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  204. What act? If he didn’t try to stop the south from leaving, the French and Brits could have it out wit the CSA to their hearts’ content, and the USA wouldn’t be involved.

    Milhouse (a0cc5c)

  205. you know who else likes to eradicate heritage what they don’t like

    Obama’s ISIS friends what he gave Iraq to

    happyfeet (831175)

  206. #210, narciso, Northern mills were even more dependent, almost exclusively so, on Southern Cotton than either the French or the Brits. In fact, one of the most ongoing divisive issues that divided North and South was onerous protective tariff laws which disadvantaged the South and directly benefited Northern interests. The following is from Wikipedia: (emphasis added)

    “Tariff of 1828″ was a protective tariff passed by the Congress of the United States on May 19, 1828, designed to protect industry in the northern United States. It was labeled the Tariff of Abominations by its southern detractors because of the effects it had on the antebellum Southern economy.

    The major goal of the tariff was to protect industries in the northern United States which were being driven out of business by low-priced imported goods by taxing them. The South, however, was harmed directly by having to pay higher prices on goods the region did not produce, and indirectly because reducing the exportation of British goods to the U.S. made it difficult for the British to pay for the cotton they imported from the South. The reaction in the South, particularly in South Carolina, would lead to the Nullification Crisis that began in late 1832.

    Interesting to note that threats of Southern secession occasioned by the 1832-33 Nullification Crisis relied almost exclusively on economic considerations, not on either support for or opposition to slavery, which was then still widely practiced in many, but not all, Northern States. The following is from historian Douglas Harper: (emphasis added)

    African slavery is so much the outstanding feature of the South, in the unthinking view of it, that people often forget there had been slaves in all the old colonies. Slaves were auctioned openly in the Market House of Philadelphia; in the shadow of Congregational churches in Rhode Island; in Boston taverns and warehouses; and weekly, sometimes daily, in Merchant’s Coffee House of New York. Such Northern heroes of the American Revolution as John Hancock and Benjamin Franklin bought, sold, and owned black people. William Henry Seward, Lincoln’s anti-slavery Secretary of State during the Civil War, born in 1801, grew up in Orange County, New York, in a slave-owning family and amid neighbors who owned slaves if they could afford them. The family of Abraham Lincoln himself, when it lived in Pennsylvania in colonial times, owned slaves.

    ropelight (1a804d)

  207. My question is when is Obama, Hillary! and the democrat party finally going to apologize for slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow, segregation and the Rebel flag on state buildings? When are the democrats going to pay reparations to black Americans for the damage all the above has done to their people? And when, by all that’s holy will Republicans shout from the roof tops and make a full campaign out of the fact it was they who freed the slaves under Lincoln, bled in the Civil War to free the slaves, ended Jim Crow and segregation?

    It would be appropriate for every registered democrat to be assessed $25,000 to be paid to an African-American for reparations as long as: 1. the AA in question can trace his family back to slavery and 2. the AA in question is not himself a democrat in which case we will consider him as paying himself for his own stupidity.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  208. And when, by all that’s holy will Republicans shout from the roof tops and make a full campaign out of the fact it was they who freed the slaves under Lincoln, bled in the Civil War to free the slaves, ended Jim Crow and segregation?

    When they want to lose half the southern white vote. The Democrats have the ignorant blacks; the GOP has the ignorant rednecks.

    nk (dbc370)

  209. If this link works you’ll just love the hypocrisy of the left. http://www.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2015-06/194865_5_.png

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  210. Ropelight–simply as a matter of blog courtesy would you try to remember to add the links at bottom of the quotes that you you post? Even if it is solely copied from a Wikipedia entry. Thanks. Many readers prefer to go to the source materials for additional detail.

    elissa (c3113f)

  211. Common, nk. I lived in the South for quite a while and the “ignorant rednecks” I ran across are the types we’d call trailer trash. If you insist upon believing people from the South are still the barefoot cornpones from a 1946 New Yorker magazine I think you’re making a big mistake. Just like all blacks aren’t ghetto rats, all Southerners are not ignorant rednecks. You may not believe it nk but they actually have smart phones in Atlanta and remote car starters in Louisiana. Why I hear they even got that new-fangled cable TV in Arkansas.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  212. I’m being nasty, I admit it. But Wallace Democrats who became Reagan Republicans are still a bunch.

    nk (dbc370)

  213. oh do be nasty

    what’s a lil divisiveness in a drain-circling whorestate among friends

    happyfeet (831175)

  214. And for your information Rev. H., the only people I have known in real life who went around flying Confederate flags were either trailer trash who were ignorant and had no liking for blacks (to put it mildly), or members of the Kappa Alpha fraternity.

    Of course, trailer trash mentality can be found in plenty of places up north, and northern ethnics had no love of blacks either (see South Boston High and integration thereof for most blatant example I know). But they did not fly Confederate flags.

    kishnevi (93670d)

  215. 215. …When they want to lose half the southern white vote. The Democrats have the ignorant blacks; the GOP has the ignorant rednecks.

    nk (dbc370) — 6/25/2015 @ 6:56 am

    Quit showing your ignorance, nk. The ignorant rednecks with the Aryan brotherhood tattoos and their union memberships are still voting for Democrats like grand kleagle Robert Byrd.

    But they’re few and far between these days in the South.

    Try to keep up.

    Steve57 (ec1eac)

  216. All I know is, now that Sears, Walmart, ebay, Amazon, etc., have decided they’d rather please the PC thought police than make money Dixie Outfitters business is booming.

    Steve57 (ec1eac)

  217. > Quit showing your ignorance, nk. The ignorant rednecks with the Aryan brotherhood tattoos and their union memberships are still voting for Democrats like grand kleagle Robert Byrd.

    I doubt that anyone knows the political affiliation of Dylan Roof, who I think we can perfectly reasonably call an ignorant racist redneck.

    aphrael (69b4f7)

  218. The GOP’s “southern strategy” was never to pander to rednecks by pretending to be racist; it was to point out to said rednecks that the Democrats had just abandoned them on the only issue on which they had previously agreed. “Both parties are now anti-racist”, Nixon told southern voters, “you don’t get a choice on that, so you should decide your vote based on the parties’ policies on other issues, and you’ll find that ours are more to your liking than theirs.”

    Milhouse (a0cc5c)

  219. ropelight (1a804d) — 6/25/2015 @ 6:31 am

    Rope – God bless you.

    Matador (1f55cc)

  220. Why thank you, Matador. You’ve made my day.

    ropelight (1a804d)


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