Patterico's Pontifications

5/9/2015

Transgender Club Opens For Children Ages 5 To 12

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:41 am



[guest post by Dana]

To aid the growing number of gender confused kindergartners, Children’s Hospital in St. Louis has recently established a transgender club for children ages 5 to 12 years.

The club is referred to as TransParent:

Our purpose is to provide support, information and resources to help parents confidently navigate their gender independent child’s personal journey of self-discovery to authentic living.

As for the club members:

Some of the children don’t know their gender and are considered gender neutral. But all share the same emotional and physical uncertainties and feel at home and safe with the other children.

Kids fill out a name tag and use the name they want to be called that night. It may or may not be the name they use at school or with friends. They draw pictures, read stories, play dress us and dance. They laugh and smile and talk about anything that’s on their mind. Two of the children agreed to talk on camera about the time they knew they were born in the wrong body. They say they knew something was wrong around age 3 or 4. They didn’t like dresses according their gender. All are comfortable and much happier when they live as they feel comfortable.

So as issues of sexual/gender identities are continually being redefined (for societal and political purposes), we have these children being told that yes, they can choose while at the same time, the LGBT crowd has long insisted that people are born with these identities and cannot choose and insist that society recognize and accommodate accordingly.

What led to the realization of gender confusion in these children?:

[A] nine-year-old member of the group, spoke candidly about his personal experience.

‘I was born a girl and [at] about three or four I told my mom and dad that I didn’t want to be a girl; I wanted to be a boy,’ he explained.

Luke’s mom recalled going to her son’s pediatrician with their situation and being told that it was ‘just a phase’.

But two years later, Luke still wanted to be recognized as a boy.

His parents let him start dressing as a boy, and two years ago he legally changed his name.

‘There was a definite zest for life when he changed,’ Luke’s dad noted of his transition.

The family chose to only use their first names out of concern that Luke would get bullied at school or during extracurricular activities.

Luke also said he would prefer to keep his born identity hidden.

‘I think I would rather keep it a secret, so people won’t call me my other name or call me a girl,’ he explained.

On their website, St. Louis Children’s Hospital provided the following criteria used to diagnose whether DSM-V Gender Dsyphoria in a child exists, explaining that “a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration as manifested by at least six of the following:

1) A strong desire to be the other gender or an insistence that one if the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).

2) In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attired; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing.

3) A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.

4) A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender.

5) A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.

6) In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.

7) A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy.

8) A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender.

And after puberty hits, these kids can look forward to expanding their gender identities to one or more of the hospital’s referenced 23 gender descriptors or better yet, the 58 gender options that Facebook has compiled. Any number, any combination, any time.

–Dana

128 Responses to “Transgender Club Opens For Children Ages 5 To 12”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. Prepping the little ones for identity politics! Malevolent, nitwit parenting.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  3. Col,

    My first draft went on a tear about idiot parents…cleaned it up.

    But, yes.

    Dana (86e864)

  4. Call me old-fashioned but I believe in DNA.

    AZ Bob (34bb80)

  5. Old-fashioned… and sexist, homophobic, gender-phobic, and trans-phobic at the very least, AZ Bob…

    Dana (86e864)

  6. This would be the “Boys or Girls or Club”?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  7. Dana– Tell me you are just trying to match yesterday’s post regarding violent opposition to dress colors… Please.

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  8. Dana – Is there some kind of “Gender of the Month Club” available to kids to figure out what gender they were supposed to be really born as by trying on new genders until they find the one that fits best?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  9. I am pretty sure there are not 58 alignments. There are not enough variables here to support that, and even if there were, the ABC list has quite a few synonyms.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  10. And so we really need to spend a lot of time deciding how to speak about a man who has a sex change so he can become a lesbian?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  11. After all the pompous lecturing about how claiming that “men and women have naturally divergent interest” is sexist, those same people are now claiming that those interests *define* gender.

    JWB (6cba10)

  12. Gramps,

    Honestly, I was so swamped at work yesterday, thus exhausted when I got home, I only read the music post.

    Dana (86e864)

  13. It’s nice to see that some pediatricians are taking over the task that Johns Hopkins dropped of humoring the nuts among parents and confused adolescents.

    Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

    Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recent commentary in the Wall Street Journal, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.

    Everybody needs somebody to love them. Pediatricians are the most left wing branch of medicine as a rule. They are big on gun control, too.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  14. yes yes they have a mental disease

    and it’s so so wrong that these diseased freaks get lumped in with your pedestrian everyday not-crazy 9-5 church-on-sunday tax-paying G’s L’s and B’s

    Failmerica is rife with category error!

    happyfeet (831175)

  15. Here is a much more important attempt to modify children’s psychological makeup.

    “What we do is open children’s eyes to the culture of life,” Mr. Assaad says. “That life is supposed to be fun. Life is good. Enjoy it. It’s not always about crying for Imam Hussein”—the Muslim saint who is the emblem of Shiite martyrdom. Encouraging the Shiite child to be a child, Mr. Assaad says, “puts him on a path that is different from the path of the fanatic.”

    Mr. Assaad’s theory of change is simple but powerful. “Hezbollah controls Lebanon,” he says. “It controls Lebanon through the Shiite community. You want to weaken Hezbollah? You have to shake its base. This is why we invest so much in the next generation.” Get enough young Shiites to care more about earthly bonds and success than about “resistance,” and Iran will gradually lose its Lebanese stronghold.

    Some 1,500 children go through the SNG camp annually, with each small cohort visiting twice a year. “Like in Iran,” Mr. Assaad says, “these kids are told that ‘anyone who isn’t Shiite, these are evil people, these are people who want to kill you.’ ” At Saving the Next Generation, “they come face to face with the other, and they find out that—guess what?—he’s just a kid, just like him. He wants the same toys. He wants to laugh at the same jokes. They cry at the same things.”

    It is so sad that the political left is so focused on nonsense like gender reassignment when there is so much evil in the world that could be fought.

    And I am by no means religious. Just concerned about the future.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  16. Which is it?
    Is there no difference between men and women?
    And gender roles are made by society?
    or
    Are there so many differences that one can mix and match to have more varieties than ever imagined?
    And society can experiment molding children into the various roles?

    There were many, many people in the APA that did not want to be ostracized.

    I am 100% sympathetic to their being real needs and concerns of many children and their parents,
    but abandoning any sense of objective reality and assuming the appropriateness of enabling all sorts of developmental confusion is a sorry state of affairs.
    Rom 1 again, thinking they are wise, they become fools, believing foolish things,
    and worse,
    encouraging foolish things in others,
    and this is actually a severe form of God’s judgment,
    letting people follow their nose to do what they want,
    and suffer the consequences of it.

    Look at all manner of societal and economic problems we have because of the last 50 years saying the nuclear family of man, wife, earning an income, nurturing the children is so passe’.
    Apparently some think that pushing the envelope further is what we need.

    Actually, they don’t really think at all, there is a mass delusion, people following their own whims, doing what is right in their own eyes, no restraint and forgetting how to blush.
    There was syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, HPV, then HIV,
    and people still think the issue is getting the right vaccine.

    It may be later than we think.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  17. Thanks for the link and comment above, Mike K.
    unfortunately, the prophetic voice crying in the wilderness, such as Dr. McHugh, is too often ignored.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  18. MD, think of it as evolution in action.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  19. Do any of you have any recollection at age three or four and something, anything being deeply wrong or amiss?

    Dana (86e864)

  20. …anything amiss with gender identity? We’re any of you that aware of things that much or was I just unaware…and a simple toddler?

    Dana (86e864)

  21. when i was three i liked to look at pictures of all the different animals

    happyfeet (831175)

  22. Lovely country.

    mg (31009b)

  23. I remember pretending to be a cheetah so I could run fast. Maybe they could have done some procedure to improve my running biomechanics.

    We could make a lot of jokes about this, if it wasn’t so sad and serious.

    Not funny, serious- does this mean if a 12 year old wants to have sex with an adult that should be facilitated?

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  24. Do any of you have any recollection at age three or four and something, anything being deeply wrong or amiss?

    Dana (86e864) — 5/9/2015 @ 10:48 am

    only when – at the age of 3 – I got my right arm feeding into the clothes wringer that sat next to the washing machine…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  25. whoops just saw #20…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  26. does this mean if a 12 year old wants to have sex with an adult that should be facilitated?

    MD,

    If the “evolution” and redefining and sifting of terms and adjustments in the collective moral compass keeps occurring, then that would inevitably become a possibility, wouldn’t it? What would there be to stop it?

    Dana (86e864)

  27. I bet if Obamacare wasn’t paying for this indulgence, the hospital would suddenly close it down due to more pressing expenses.

    Denver (857794)

  28. 14. and it’s so so wrong that these diseased freaks get lumped in with your pedestrian everyday not-crazy 9-5 church-on-sunday tax-paying G’s L’s and B’s

    If you believe that, then the people who came up with this trannie thing have played you.

    Failmerica is rife with category error!

    happyfeet (831175) — 5/9/2015 @ 10:25 am

    Yes, you mean like thinking marriage can include gay marriage. That one thing can include its opposite.

    It’s been a long march through the institutions. But we’re getting around to Karl Marx’s goal of destroying the bourgeois family. Destruction through redefinition.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418012/inching-toward-harrison-bergeron-kevin-d-williamson

    …The main sources of economic inequality are not matters of public policy. They are instead rooted in the individual — including in the physical facts of the individual — and in the family, both of which have traditionally been considered outside of the public sphere. In a liberal society, some things are not political questions, but the Left, with its authoritarian mottos — “The personal is the political,” “If you’re not part of the solution, then you’re part of the problem,” etc. — is in its most fundamental assumptions the opposite of liberal: It is totalitarian.

    Occasionally, a progressives makes the political mistake of being too open about where those assumptions lead, as was the case this week with the Australian philosopher Adam Swift, who noted, correctly, that being read to by one’s parents is correlated with a greater degree of subsequent economic success than is attending an elite school. The inevitable conclusion is that loving, engaged families are an important source of inequality, that good families are a good that is distributed unequally with no regard for fairness, etc.

    …Progressives are quite content to issue orders at the point of a bayonet about how and where you educate your children, and some of the more enthusiastic partisans among them desire to imprison parents for home-schooling their children or to have religious education declared an “extreme form of child abuse,” in the words of Richard Dawkins.

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418012/inching-toward-harrison-bergeron-kevin-d-williamson

    You always have to throw the priests and the nuns and the rabbis into the gulags first. They challenge the supreme authority of the state.

    Thanks for helping to bring about this fascist future, happyfeet!

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  29. 4. Call me old-fashioned but I believe in DNA.
    AZ Bob (34bb80) — 5/9/2015 @ 10:02 am

    5. Old-fashioned… and sexist, homophobic, gender-phobic, and trans-phobic at the very least, AZ Bob…
    Dana (86e864) — 5/9/2015 @ 10:04 am

    And a thought and speech criminal.

    At least on college campi, where “misgendering” is punishible hate speech.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  30. Why are they anti-science?

    When did we start letting 5 year olds make life-changing decisions?

    JD (3b5483)

  31. When did we start letting 5 year olds make life-changing decisions?

    When one was elected preident by his ignorant followers.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  32. gay marriage is wholesome and fun Mr. 57 it’s one of america’s favorite new things

    they done surveys on it

    happyfeet (831175)

  33. Occasionally, a progressives makes the political mistake of being too open about where those assumptions lead

    Yes, and some of them even end up on the Supreme Court.

    Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.

    Some others noticed that interview and were concerned.

    At the very least, Ginsburg displays a disturbing insensitivity to Supreme Court history. It was Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. who wrote the 1927 decision approving forced sterilization for Carrie Buck — a 17-year-old single mother judged to be feebleminded and morally delinquent. “It is better for all the world,” ruled Holmes, “if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind.” Such elitism has been discredited; it is not extinct.

    The entire Ginsburg interview is a reminder of the risks of lifetime appointments to the Supreme Court. Immune from criticism, surrounded by plump cushions of deference, the temperament of a justice can become exaggerated over time. For Ginsburg, complex arguments are now “so obvious” and “can never be otherwise” — and opposition is fated to failure. Such statements, made during Ginsburg’s own nomination hearing, would have been disqualifying. Now she doesn’t give a damn.

    Oh well. They mean well.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  34. 30. Why are they anti-science?

    When did we start letting 5 year olds make life-changing decisions?

    JD (3b5483) — 5/9/2015 @ 12:37 pm

    Actually they’re anti-reality. And the reason is because they’re pro-totalitarian. Reality is what they tell you it is. And just like in Orwell’s 1984 if one day they allow that 2 + 2 = 4, and the next day they need 2 + 2 = 5, and the day after 3, then people will have to go along with it or else.

    So biology is just a figment of your imagination. Gender is just a social construct. Once they establish that as the organizing principle of government, then at the point of a gun they can force you to replace your old, oppressive, heteronormative, patriarchal, homophobic, “old white male” (i.e. western civilization version) of gender with their own.

    After all, it’s just a social construct. The only reason you “bitter clingers” are clinging to yours is because the old version upheld your “privilege.” Which means you’re just doing it out of hate.

    They did it with marriage. Holding the same view of marriage in 2015 that Barack Obama said he held in 2009 is now “hate.”

    Actually, they’re trying to do the same thing with Islam. How many times are we told “Islam is a religion of peace.”

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/james-foley/obama-journalists-killing-no-just-god-would-stand-what-they-n185076

    President Barack Obama declared Wednesday that “the entire world is appalled” by the beheading of James Foley, an American journalist, by the Islamist militant group ISIS.

    Uh, no. The “entire world” is not in fact appalled by that. As a matter of fact, a large chunk of the world likes what it saw, and would like to join the “militant” group that did it when they see the youtube video.

    “There is evil in this world, and we all have come face to face with it once again,” Kerry said. “Ugly, savage, inexplicable, nihilistic and valueless evil. ISIL is the face of that evil, a threat to people who want to live in peace, and an ugly insult to the peaceful religion they violate every day with their barbarity.”

    Senator McCain is wrong about a lot. But John Kerry does live in an alternate universe. ISIS is in fact very explicable. I can explain it. So can Pam Geller. But to adopt anything except the alternate universe view of Islam is HAAAAATE!

    Reading is fundamental Islamophobic. How dare anyone read the Quran and the Sunnah literature and conclude that texts do in fact provide a rationale and a justification for what they are doing. But if I point out the reality of the situation, that makes me a loathsome extremist and a thought criminal. Just like Pam Geller, who deserved what everyone knew she’d get from the religion of peace. The cognitive dissonance is part and parcel of the progressive left’s alternate universe that Kerry lives in.

    Which I do not want to join. Redefining marriage was just an incremental step in reordering the universe. The progressive left didn’t seize on that because they care about gay rights. They only care about empowering government. Libertarians are deluded; government will never get out of the marriage business. SSM was all about government getting into the marriage business. As any Christian baker can tell you. Marriage was not a creation of the state. It existed before the state, and the state’s only role in “defining” marriage was acknowledging the preexisting definition.

    If they can claim the power to redefine, and force people to adopt that redefinition, that there’s nothing they can’t redefine and force upon you. Like the current 38 genders of Facebook.

    This is why they’re anti-science. And it isn’t the 5 year olds who will be making the life-changing decisions.

    “How many fingers am I holding up, Winston? That’s not correct, Winston.” (Screams are heard as the electric shock is applied.)

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  35. 32. gay marriage is wholesome and fun Mr. 57 it’s one of america’s favorite new things

    they done surveys on it

    happyfeet (831175) — 5/9/2015 @ 12:59 pm

    Yes. And in 1930s Germany “strength through joy” was wholesome and fun.

    And you’re right. Fascism is one of America’s favorite new things. As you yourself have observed.

    Sorry you can’t connect the dots, if indeed you even want the dots connected.

    Two plus two just ain’t what it used to be.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  36. 33. …Oh well. They mean well.

    Mike K (90dfdc) — 5/9/2015 @ 1:07 pm

    Another fiction that if you don’t go along with means you are a loathsome extremist H8r.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  37. i think you can call failmerica a big fascist fetid whorestate and bracket gay marriage as a nice and increasingly uncommon advancement of freedom and equality in our once-great lil country

    yup

    I thought about this a lot Mr. 57.

    happyfeet (831175)

  38. 37. i think you can call failmerica a big fascist fetid whorestate and bracket gay marriage as a nice and increasingly uncommon advancement of freedom and equality in our once-great lil country

    Destroying the First Amendment, in fact the entire Bill of Rights, and it’s “negative freedoms” that say what the government can’t do and replacing them with “positive freedoms” that say what the government must do for you isn’t an advancement in freedom. It’s an advancement in fascism. Because these positive rights are all about empowering government to force other people to do what it says.

    If you have a right to health care, then someone must provide it. As Cuban doctors who have successfully sued the Castro government for slavery can tell you.

    If you have a right to gay marriage, then someone must bake you a cake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EcmpUHCHkk

    2001 Chicago Public Radio Interview with Barack Obama

    http://patriotupdate.com/articles/obama%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98redistribution-of-wealth%E2%80%99-radio-interview-2001/

    Obama’s ‘Redistribution of Wealth’ Radio Interview, 2001

    yup

    I thought about this a lot Mr. 57.
    happyfeet (831175) — 5/9/2015 @ 1:24 pm

    Either you haven’t thought about it, or you’re in on it.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  39. i think you can call failmerica a big fascist fetid whorestate and bracket gay marriage as a nice and increasingly uncommon advancement of freedom and equality in our once-great lil country

    In the progressive left’s world, slavery is freedom. I see you’ve adopted the progressive left’s redefinition of that, too.

    And who can be against equality, ask the pigs who intend to be more equal than others.

    http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=356599

    Free Speech Is Binary: We Either Have It Or We Don’t [CBD]

    …So…exercise of our God-given rights that are codified in our country’s most important legal and social document is an unnecessary provocation.

    …So…Greta Van Susteren of the surgically tightened face and the idiotic pseudo-religion, should I moderate the exercise of my own religion lest I offend the goat-humping, gay-killing, woman beating maniacs of Islam?

    Oh, yes, you must, sez happyfeet. But not just because it offends Islam. For many reasons.

    You can not have “marriage equality” and freedom of religion. You can not have “marriage equality” and freedom of speech. You can not have “marriage equality” and freedom of association. Which is why the left has seized on advancing LGBT rights as an issue. Because LGBT rights will trump all other rights. Because, equality! Everything must be made the same.

    If you insist on the rights listed in your old paper, you can exercise them. But you can’t have a job, as Brendan Eich found out. You can’t own a business, own a bakery or a floral shop. You can’t be a judge in California.

    http://www.sfgate.com/lgbt/article/Court-Judges-can-t-belong-to-Scouts-due-to-gay-6036874.php

    Thank you for the fascism, happyfeets!

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  40. http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dear-gay-community-your-kids-are-hurting/

    Do you remember that book, “Heather Has Two Mommies”? That was my life. My mom, her partner, and I lived in a cozy little house in the ‘burbs of a very liberal and open-minded area. Her partner treated me as if I was her own daughter. Along with my mom’s partner, I also inherited her tight-knit community of gay and lesbian friends. Or maybe they inherited me?

    Either way, I still feel like gay people are my people. I’ve learned so much from you. You taught me how to be brave, especially when it is hard. You taught me empathy. You taught me how to listen. And how to dance. You taught me not be afraid of things that are different. And you taught me how to stand up for myself, even if that means I stand alone…

    Clearly a homophobic bigot. She must be destroyed.

    …Growing up, and even into my 20s, I supported and advocated for gay marriage. It’s only with some time and distance from my childhood that I’m able to reflect on my experiences and recognize the long-term consequences that same-sex parenting had on me. And it’s only now, as I watch my children loving and being loved by their father each day, that I can see the beauty and wisdom in traditional marriage and parenting.

    Same-sex marriage and parenting withholds either a mother or father from a child while telling him or her that it doesn’t matter. That it’s all the same. But it’s not. A lot of us, a lot of your kids, are hurting. My father’s absence created a huge hole in me, and I ached every day for a dad. I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost.

    I grew up surrounded by women who said they didn’t need or want a man. Yet, as a little girl, I so desperately wanted a daddy. It is a strange and confusing thing to walk around with this deep-down unquenchable ache for a father, for a man, in a community that says that men are unnecessary. There were times I felt so angry with my dad for not being there for me, and then times I felt angry with myself for even wanting a father to begin with. There are parts of me that still grieve over that loss today…

    But marriage is no longer about children. It’s about YOU, same sex couples. And through the redefinition of marriage about the whims and desires of the adults involved. What the children need is of no consequence. Which ignores the historical reality of why marriage became a matter of English civil law in the first place. And why marriage was seen as honorable and ennobling, as Justice Kennedy would put it.

    …But children of same-sex parents haven’t been given the same voice. It’s not just me. There are so many of us. Many of us are too scared to speak up and tell you about our hurt and pain, because for whatever reason it feels like you’re not listening. That you don’t want to hear. If we say we are hurting because we were raised by same-sex parents, we are either ignored or labeled a hater.

    This isn’t about hate at all…

    Just to emphasize:

    …Growing up, and even into my 20s, I supported and advocated for gay marriage. It’s only with some time and distance from my childhood that I’m able to reflect on my experiences and recognize the long-term consequences that same-sex parenting had on me…

    There’s a reason why the Democrats want 16 year old kids to vote. Before they have a chance to figure things out.

    happyfeets thinks this country is advancing the cause of freedom by giving the feds to come down full force on anyone who dissents from the state religion. I suppose that’s also worth damaging some children in the process.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  41. The kids will be hurting even more as the progressive left uses them as stage props, like Obama’s Styrofoam Greek colums, in their push for transgender rights. Every single one of those kids pushed into that transgender club will come out scarred.

    But children no longer matter, anyway.

    http://www.theweek.com/articles/551027/how-christianity-invented-children

    We can import them from Honduras if we need them.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  42. your unified theories they set me head a-spinnin

    people should be free to marry who they love that’s quintessentially america

    forcing gay peoples to conform to your abstruse religious views

    it’s same thing what made the puritans get on ships and float to the new whirl!

    it’s oppression, and we’ll be having none of it on my watch thank you very much

    happyfeet (831175)

  43. Mathis hospital complex was once widely regarded as the BEST MEDICAL CENTER in the Midwest. Too bad, they’ve just lost me as a postgraduate alumnus donor.

    Gordon Pasha (97b8a9)

  44. From abstinence-only sex education to this. It makes me wonder if the education establishment is run by heterophobes.

    Michael Ejercito (d9a893)

  45. 42. …people should be free to marry who they love that’s quintessentially america

    Oh, grow up. It is not quintessentially American. It never has been. That’s part of the airbrushing of history that has made the current fascist failamerica possible, Mr. feets. You pretend you’re against it, while feeding it.

    People should be free to love who they love. The rest of us should not have to call it marriage unless it has some connection to the the perpetuation of society. Which no “gay marriage” can ever have. Only an actual marriage has that quality. Which is between a man and a woman.

    …forcing gay peoples to conform to your abstruse religious views

    They’re not my religious views. I have religious views, but I’m not basing my argument on them. To say I’m against SSM because of my religious views is like saying I only think stealing is wrong because the Bible says so. There are entirely secular reasons to think both are wrong. But I can see why you have to pretend otherwise.

    Because you have no facts on your side. You have no argument. So you have to pretend I’m imposing some arbitrary religious construct on people when I point out that marriage was recognized by civil authorities only because it served a serious social purpose.

    It is a historical fact that the only reason marriage exists as a matter of civil law is because of concern for child welfare. There is no other reason for it to exist. Which is entirely the effect SSM was conjured up for.

    Marriage does not exist to provide some sort of public validation for one person’s love for another. That reduces it in importance to a token for what used to be called in high school going steady. To redefine marriage to include SSM means marriage no longer serves a serious social purpose.

    Which is I suppose fitting considering the ongoing and accelerating infantilization of our society.

    Since you can’t dispute the actual argument I’m making, I can see why you have to pretend I’m making a different argument.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/lesbian-activist-gay-marriage-fight-a-lie-to-destroy-traditional-marriage

    There is no honest argument for same sex marriage. You are demonstrating that, Mr. feets.

    Please continue to make my point.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  46. that ship has sailed Mr. 57

    if you wanna live in a little country without gay marriage so sorry picklehead it ain’t gonna be this one

    happyfeet (831175)

  47. 42. your unified theories they set me head a-spinnin

    people should be free to marry who they love be whatever gender they feel like that’s quintessentially america

    forcing gay trans peoples to conform to your abstruse religious views

    it’s same thing what made the puritans get on ships and float to the new whirl!

    it’s oppression, and we’ll be having none of it on my watch thank you very much

    happyfeet (831175) — 5/10/2015 @ 6:21 am

    There. I wrote the next chapter in the deconstruction of America for you.

    You pretend that the Ts don’t belong with the Ls and the Bs and the Gs but your reckless, ahistorical, and entirely emotional arguments for SSM are exactly what says they do. And since you’re argument for SSM amounts to “facts don’t matter” then we get the full monty.

    The redefinition of not just marriage, but also gender and family. Because, as you say when it comes to SSM, facts don’t matter.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  48. 46. that ship has sailed Mr. 57

    if you wanna live in a little country without gay marriage so sorry picklehead it ain’t gonna be this one

    happyfeet (831175) — 5/10/2015 @ 7:25 am

    I understand the inmates have taken charge of the asylum, Mr. feets. But now that I have, I can also tell you where it’s headed. And you can’t stop it; you were one of the guys dismantling the brakes on this crazy train.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  49. T’s are weirdo self-mutilators

    plus they smell funny

    gay marriage on the other hand has been around for years and years now and it’s co-existing quite happily with the regular-type marriage

    i’d be lying if i said gay marriage has had any kind of impact on my life whatsoever

    it’s like Lane Bryant and Tuvalu and gluten

    happyfeet (831175)

  50. It is a historical fact that the only reason marriage exists as a matter of civil law is because of concern for child welfare. There is no other reason for it to exist. Which is entirely the effect SSM was conjured up for.

    Not so. Secular law (as distinguished from canon law) got involved because of property rights.
    It needed to decide who inherited the family wealth and who controlled the wife’s property (back in the era when husbands controlled it), and for that it needed to figure out who was married to whom.

    This does not directly contradict your argument but it does need to be taken into account.

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  51. As a matter of English law you’re wrong, kishnevi.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk1ch16.asp

    THE duty of parents to provide for the maintenance of their children is a principle of natural law ; an obligation, fays Puffendorf b, laid on them not only by nature herfelf, but by their own proper act, in bringing them into the world : for they would be in the higheft manner injurious to their iffue, if they only gave the children life, that they might afterwards fee them perifh. By begetting them therefore they have entered into a voluntary obligation, to endeavour, as far as in them lies, that the life which they have beftowed fhall be fupported and preferved. And thus the children will have a perfect right of receiving maintenance from their parents. And the prefident Montefquieu c has a very juft obfervation upon this head : that the eftablifhment of marriage in all civilized ftates is built on this natural obligation of the father to provide for his children ; for that afcertains and makes known the perfon who is bound to fulfil this obligation : whereas, in promifcuous and illicit conjunctions, the father is unknown ; and the mother finds a thoufand obftacles in her way ; — fhame, remorfe, the conftraint of her fex, and the rigor of laws ; — that ftifle her inclinations to perform this duty : and befides, the generally wants ability.

    THE municipal laws of all well-regulated ftates have taken care to enforce this duty : though providence has done it more effectually than any laws, by implanting in the breaft of every parent that natural sopyn, or infuperable degree of affection, which not even the deformity of perfon or mind, not even the wickednefs, ingratitude, and rebellion of children, can totally fupprefs or extinguifh.

    THE civil law d obliges the parent to provide maintenance for his child ; and, if he refufes, “ judex de ea re cognofcet.” …

    Why, kishnevi, do people keep making up reasons for marriage that have no connection to why it exists as a matter of law?

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  52. Science be praised! Turn with me now to Chapter 17, verse 21 of our DSM scripture.

    “Come unto me all ye Tomboys who liketh not the dress and I will give unto you costumes and a pretend name. Whoa be unto thee that pointeth out the obvious, for I will cast thee out of the mainstream and down unto the blogs, where the ad revenues are low and the comments dieth not”

    Marko (7deb77)

  53. Not so. Secular law (as distinguished from canon law) got involved because of property rights.
    It needed to decide who inherited the family wealth…

    A secondary effect of the primary purpose of marriage. Which was children and their welfare.

    it needed to figure out who was married to whom.

    For the purpose Blackstone discusses @51.

    If you can cite some other source closer to the date when, in England (the country from which we inherited our legal system), marriage became a civil concern and was no longer left to cannon law that disputes him then please do.

    Otherwise I have to conclude you’re just making things up.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  54. THE civil law d obliges the parent to provide maintenance for his child

    In case it’s unclear, this is why the state needed to figure out who is married to whom.

    All the secondary effects such as sorting out inheritance and property rights flow from this primary purpose. But it is axiomatic they did not precede it.

    But again, if anyone has an authoritative source that disputes this, then please, cite it.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  55. I take it no one has any sources better than Blackstone. And by extension Montesquieu, whom Blackstone cites when he says “the establishment of marriage in all civilized states is built on this natural obligation of the father to provide for his children.”

    Because there are none. There is no other case for why marriage exists as a matter of law, under our legal system, that has any factual basis.

    In order to redefine marriage in a way that divorces it from it’s only reason to exist in the first place (thereby rendering it at best trivial, but most probably irrelevant), you have to take the position that the facts don’t matter.

    Once you do that, anything goes. The people who brought you SSM understand that perfectly. So now that everyone has come around to their way of thinking, that facts don’t matter, say hello to 38 genders and counting as well as Heather has two mommies and three daddies on her birth certificate.

    You’ve already abandoned the only basis you ever had to disagree.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  56. marriage exists on its own momentum not unlike disney whirl, chick peas, liberal arts education, polo shirts, madonna, machu picchu, paddle boats, cotton candy and birthday cake

    you worry too much picklehead

    happyfeet (831175)

  57. Deep thoughts from happyfeet.

    It’s the kind of thinking that brings on the fascism.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  58. everything is all falling dominoes with you

    here is a singing for you from yesteryear

    happyfeet (831175)

  59. god that’s wretched

    happyfeet (831175)

  60. T’s are weirdo self-mutilators

    plus they smell funny

    gay marriage on the other hand has been around for years and years now and it’s co-existing quite happily with the regular-type marriage

    Transsexuals have been around a lot longer than gay marriage, and have coexisted quite happily with “cissexuals” (how I hate that non-word, but in this sentence I find it useful).

    i’d be lying if i said gay marriage has had any kind of impact on my life whatsoever

    it’s like Lane Bryant and Tuvalu and gluten

    I’ll bet you’d also be lying if you said transsexuality has had any kind of impact on your life. It’s certainly had no impact on mine, except in the trivial sense that had the transsexuals I know not been T, they would have led different lives, and thus might not have been at the times and places where their lives have intersected with mine.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  61. , marriage became a civil concern and was no longer left to cannon law

    I’ve heard of shotgun weddings, but that’s taking it a bit far, don’t you think?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  62. all sorts of aberrant behavior, have been around, why do we bother with a DSM anymore,

    the first wave was with the Bono offspring, now with Jenner, what new horror will they torment us with , ala Clockwork Orange*

    *with the proviso that Alex was being deprogrammed of his antisocial behavior,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  63. here is a singing for you from yesteryear

    Somehow I don’t think that’s what George Bernard Shaw had in mind

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  64. So as issues of sexual/gender identities are continually being redefined (for societal and political purposes), we have these children being told that yes, they can choose while at the same time, the LGBT crowd has long insisted that people are born with these identities and cannot choose and insist that society recognize and accommodate accordingly

    You’re using “choose” in two different senses there. It makes no difference whether one agrees with the theory; to discuss it intelligently one must understand it. And the theory represented here is that sexual identity and orientation are inborn, and can’t be freely chosen, but must be discovered. These children are supposedly being given the freedom, not to choose who they want to be, but to figure out who they are, which is not always obvious, especially if ones true identity turns out to be different from what ones appearance would suggest. The idea is that by not being told that just because you look like a boy you are one, the few girls who look like boys will discover the truth more quickly and less painfully, instead of believing what they’re told and suppressing the internal evidence that it’s wrong, only to be forced to confront the truth later in life.

    The theory depends, however, on those boys who look like boys being confident that they are boys, or figuring it out quickly, so they can go have boy fun while they’re still children. In principle, at least, it seems equally possible that there are boys who look like boys but are confused for one reason or another, and the existence of this program will magnify that confusion, so that by the time they conclude that nature didn’t make any mistakes, and they are exactly what they look like, precious years of normal “cisgendered” development will have been lost.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  65. no, they are being prompted, indoctrinated into this view,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  66. Part of the whole new paradigm in transsexualism is the idea that just because you’ve decided/figured out that you’re a woman with a penis is no reason to get surgery. After all, who says women can’t have penises? It’s society and the plastic surgery industry telling you that women have to look a certain way, and you should be a rebel and be proud and happy with however you happen to look, even if you’re a woman with a penis or a man with a vagina.

    On the one hand, this seems a lot healthier than the earlier idea that if you’ve discovered a mismatc between your body and your mind you must bring them into conformity, and if you can’t change your mind, then you must change your body. On the other hand, it seems utterly lunatic.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  67. Of course the underlying principle behind all of this is that there is no such thing as “normal”, that hte word “normal” should be banished from our vocabulary, because every individual is different, and there are no norms with which s/he should be expected to conform. Which, once again, is batshit.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  68. Of course the underlying principle behind all of this is that there is no such thing as “normal”, that hte word “normal” should be banished from our vocabulary, because every individual is different, and there are no norms with which s/he should be expected to conform. Which, once again, is bonkers.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  69. well lets move to human sacrifice, then, we’re well on our way.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  70. Steve, perhaps you noticed whom Blackstone quoted there? A German jurist and a French philosopher! Meaning he had no English source on the topic.
    Because until the mid 18th century, marriage and allied matters were left to Church courts operating under canon law.
    The change in fact came not long before Blackstone was writing…
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_Act_1753
    Which is concerned on procedures leading to marriage, not the reason for marriage.
    And as I said, this does not really contradict your main argument.

    kishnevi (9c4b9c)

  71. as orwwell said ‘some things are so unbelievable, only intellectuals believe it’

    narciso (ee1f88)

  72. kishnevi @69, just because Blackstone quoted a French philosopher and a German jurist does not mean Blackstone didn’t also have British sources. And I once did the research and found British civil marriage laws going back to the 16th century. Which the Marriage Act of 1753 hints at if you read it carefully.

    I mention it as a useful reminder to back up everything in case of a hard drive crash.

    Maybe I’ll reconstruct that research, as if it would matter to anyone besides me. But all that amounts to quibbles. As you observe, you’re not really at odds with my main point about why marriage exists as a legal matter under English, and consequently our, law.

    My real point is that the same bullying tactics* that proved so useful in this very Soviet rewrite of history will prove useful in other seemingly unconnnected but actually connected arenas. I see why it’s controversial for me to say that the redefinition of marriage is connected to the redefinition of gender and the redefinition of those is connected to the redefinition of family. Because it must be labeled as such. Otherwise the bullies bent on atomizing society might not achieve their ultimate goal. Their increments must be cast as separate campaigns.

    So, I’ve lost the argument on SSM. Not on the merits. I can make an entirely secular case that marriage exists for the benefit of children who are the result of a biological function, since that is how a society continues to exist. It does not logically follow that if I maintain that position I must hate people with homosexual attractions. But logic has nothing to do with how we got here. The progressive left has figured out their cudgels labelled “hate” and “equality” and “inclusive” et al defeat logic and historicity. We can be brow beaten into conformity.

    Now, with as many genders as they can come up with, that’s a lot of people you must hate if you want to bitterly cling to the idea that DNA matters.

    That’s how divide and conquer works.

    *They call it “shaming.” As if I can be shamed by that paragon of virtue, Hillary! Why do we fall for this inversion of meaning?

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  73. don’t feel bad Mr. 57

    you gave it your best and that’s the most important thing

    happyfeet (831175)

  74. I feel fine Mr. feets.

    Like the USS Chicago at the Battle of Rennel Island I went down with my flag flying. Like her crew, I live to fight another day. So I train.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gw–LrXLo

    Warrior Mace Training

    I combine the 360s with the Barbarian Squat. It’s my own innovation. Not like nobody else figured it out.

    I just use a sledgehammer though.

    I do use the steel clubs from Onnit.

    https://www.onnit.com/onnit-steel-clubs/

    When I’m not raping women with my eyes.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  75. maybe the ship has sailed, but the destination may not be what some people think

    it is not freedom, it is bondage. God is giving us up as a society to what we want, so we can learn the hard way, since we are stiff-necked and will not listen.

    “In the beginning male and female He created them”
    Nothing less than an attack to undermine the foundation of human existence.
    A version of the truth in “The Abolition of Man”, some people take upon themselves the task of trying to reshape humanity in their own image, and what you get is less than human, not a better human.

    If there are things that differentiates mankind from animals, two are the ability to think abstractly and make moral choices.
    But some want to deny there is a difference,
    which makes it possible to “put down” humans who are not enjoying life, or who are a burden on others,
    just like pets.

    really there is nothing new under the sun, and we are doomed to repeat history over and over until He brings it to an end,
    because too many never do learn.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  76. One verse in the Psalms that I do not remember and heed well enough,
    “Fret not because of the wicked, because it leads only to trouble.”
    (something like that)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  77. Doc @74, +1

    That’s why I train everyday.

    Apparently I’ll never be a noncombatant.

    So, I intend to think for myself until the end.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  78. And defend my right to do so. Which I thought would be implied in my comment @76. But in this confused age maybe I need to spell it out.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  79. as long as there is a war, there is the need for combatants
    rest comes when the war is over
    I hope you realize my comments were not meant to be critical of anyone,
    except for feets’ view that the ship is sailing to a good place
    but that contrast has been long established

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  80. Not funny, serious- does this mean if a 12 year old wants to have sex with an adult that should be facilitated?

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 5/9/2015 @ 11:27 am

    If you’re serious, you might want to re-think this. What in the world would make you say this? What does gender identity have to do with adults having sex with children?

    I had a friend when I was a kid, and everyone in the world could tell that he was more female than male. He could have used this kind of support.

    Aren’t something like 1% of kids born with ambiguous genitalia? Why shouldn’t they get a little help?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  81. gender identity has to do with behavior associated with gender
    the underlying idea is that if it is sexual a person has a right to do whatever they want, starting at 5,apparently
    how can one know what gender they are until they “check it out?”, btw
    I’m surprised that you’re surprised I said this.
    yes, gender is more than having sexual experience, but sexual experience is sure a huge part of what is involved in gender

    I’ve never had a patient, nor personally know a doc who had such a patient, I’m wondering howyou get a 1% estimate

    if you’ve EVER read ANY of my comments on children and sexual identity, you should know I am all for “getting them some help”,
    but that I think public affirmations that their confusion is to be encouraged, such as a 5 yo being allowed to use the bathroom of the opposite biological gender, is more using the child for an agenda than interested in what is best for the child

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  82. your friend certainly could have used some loving and patient understanding
    putting him in a group of other children who didn’t fit into rigid stereotypes, not sure about that

    for years “they” have tried to tell us that there is no gender specific behavior, that it is just a social convention imposed
    now “they” are trying to tell us gender specific behavior exists in a myriad of combinations, and society should encourage the identification and reinforcement of such stereotypes and behaviors

    the only consistent thing is opposition to the idea that people are “male and female” and that they are different from each other.
    That seems to be pretty logically self evident, no matter what one wants to believe or do about it.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  83. gender identity has to do with behavior associated with gender
    the underlying idea is that if it is sexual a person has a right to do whatever they want, starting at 5,apparently
    how can one know what gender they are until they “check it out?”, btw
    I’m surprised that you’re surprised I said this.
    yes, gender is more than having sexual experience, but sexual experience is sure a huge part of what is involved in gender

    MD – seriously, I’m trying to understand your point-of-view, but I am failing.

    Let’s say that I am a 10 year old boy. Every morning, I flip a coin to decide which gender I am that day. Sometimes, I identify as a girl; sometimes I identify as a boy. What in the actual f#ck does that have to do with adults having sex with children?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  84. That person is biologically a boy or a girl, carlitos, regardless of what the coin flip says. Because, science.

    JD (ef7925)

  85. I can’t believe you are serious, how many gay men have you known well enough to have honest conversations with?
    as I said above, yes, gender is more than sexual attraction and behavior, but to say that is not a major part of it seems a bit absurd

    why do you think there is nambla? because there are a lot of adults (especially males) who are more than happy to help a young person figure out their sexuality

    when that child flips a coin to decide what gender they are that day, what message have they received from society around them as to what it means to be a boy or girl? they see it on TV, online, and hear it in the music, but to be a sexual being, to have a gender/sexual identity is to identify who you are attracted to, what role one would role-play

    is there anyone other than Michael E. that sees no truth in my point?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  86. That person is biologically a boy or a girl, carlitos, regardless of what the coin flip says. Because, science.

    JD (ef7925) — 5/11/2015 @ 7:39 am

    If you’re born with both parts, what are you?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  87. I can’t believe you are serious, how many gay men have you known well enough to have honest conversations with?

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 5/11/2015 @ 7:40 am
    Holy Crap, I can’t believe that you’re serious. I know lots of gay men.

    Again, what does a child’s gender identity have to do with adults having sex with children? If a 6 year old with a penis acts female, what in the world does that have to do with adults having sex with children?

    Please, seriously, enlighten me. I am totally missing your point here.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  88. carlitos, who has said that ambiguous genitalia doesn’t exist?
    How many of them have had their first sexual experience with an older man when they were still a youth?
    Not all, I’m sure, but quite a few.

    I have other things to do now.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  89. we got trannies out the ying yang

    this whole tranny tranny tranny thing is silly and contrived

    if you wanna tranny it up yay good for you but me I could give a crap about the care and feeding of the falmerican tranny

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  90. carlitos, who has said that ambiguous genitalia doesn’t exist?

    I don’t know. Who?

    How many of them have had their first sexual experience with an older man when they were still a youth?
    Not all, I’m sure, but quite a few.

    Cool. Please cite some evidence.

    I have other things to do now.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 5/11/2015 @ 7:52 am

    No rush. I’m working starting …….. now.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  91. do you want me to list the names of patients and others I’ve known?
    you may have forgotten that close to all of my practice was with people with HIV for 11 years, and a significant portion during additional years of practice as well
    (some from IVDU or heterosexual contact)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  92. there is nambla by the way

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  93. No, I don’t want you to cite some anecdotes. If you really are a doctor, you know how this works. You can please cite a peer-reviewed study that intersex children are predisposed to having sex with adults.

    thx

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  94. The incidence of transsexualism has been estimated at 1:30,000 for male to “female,” and 1:100,000 for female to “male,” based on actual surgical procedures, although there are a couple of wholly self-interested claims that the incidence is two orders of magnitude (about 100 times) those numbers.

    With this condition being so very rare, why on God’s earth would a children’s hospital in St Louis (population 318,000) set up something so ridiculous for maybe one patient? (With those numbers, there ought to be 5 M2″F” and 1.5 F2″M” transsexuals in the whole town, and none of them would be in the 5 to 12 age range. These would be numbers for transsexuals who go through the surgery, and all would be older than pre-adolescent.)

    The Dana who isn't a doctor (f6a568)

  95. ==gender identity has to do with behavior associated with gender….the underlying idea is that if it is sexual a person has a right to do whatever they want, starting at 5, apparently. ….but to be a sexual being, to have a gender/sexual identity is to identify who you are attracted to, what role one would role-play==

    Do any of us who consider ourselves “normal” or who have “normal” children or “normal” brothers and sisters honestly posit that gender identity or gender POV or gender “behaviors” at age 5-10 are primarily about having sex of some sort or even thinking about sex or sexual attraction?

    I think these innocent and confused five year olds are showing a preference to wear the type of clothes they want and to play with the type of toys they want, and to be referred to by a name/pronoun that fits their own image of themselves. These things should not be ignored as something “they’ll grow out of”, but should start to be sorted out one way or the other when young. I don’t think either they or their parents are looking to hook up with Nambla.

    elissa (f7ed5c)

  96. 85. …If you’re born with both parts, what are you?

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/11/2015 @ 7:44 am

    Bruce Jenner wasn’t born with both parts. That’s an entirely different issue.

    I’ll let you in on a secret. Bruce Jenner and guys like him don’t actually know what it’s like to be a woman. Just like women who think they’re men don’t actually know.

    Nor do they know what it’s like to be a pony, or a tiger.

    Should we all just accommodate someone who thinks they should have been born a tiger?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232523/Stalking-Cat-Daniel-Avner-dead-possible-suicide-years-transforming-face-look-like-feline.html

    These people need care. They need compassion. They need help. They do not need indulgence and cosmetic surgery.

    They do not need the rest of us to surrender to the notion that they’re right and the rest of us are wrong.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  97. carlitos – I was not referencing that 0.05% of the population that are born “intersexed”. I don’t know where you got 1%, as the Intersex Society of North America only claims 1 out of 2000.

    JD (ef7925)

  98. If you’re born with both parts, what are you?

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/11/2015 @ 7:44 am

    You are a hermaphrodite (a term combining Hermes and Aphrodite) and there is a certain incidence of these. There is also a condition which used to be called testicular feminization syndrome and now called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome in which the individual has the phenotype of a female and genetically is an XY chromosome male.

    A famous movie star, who is a favorite of mine, is an example. She is a beautiful woman and has undoubtedly had her gonads removed as there is a risk of cancer.

    Clinical phenotypes in these individuals range from a normal male habitus with mild spermatogenic defect or reduced secondary terminal hair, to a full female habitus, despite the presence of a Y-chromosome.[1][5][6][7][8][9]

    AIS is divided into three categories that are differentiated by the degree of genital masculinization: complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) is indicated when the external genitalia are that of a normal female; mild androgen insensitivity syndrome (MAIS) is indicated when the external genitalia are that of a normal male, and partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) is indicated when the external genitalia are partially, but not fully, masculinized.[1][2][5][6][7][10][11][12][13]

    Androgen insensitivity syndrome is the largest single entity that leads to 46,XY undermasculinized genitalia.[1

    It’s not that rare. A nationwide survey in The Netherlands based on patients with genetic confirmation of the diagnosis estimates that the minimal incidence of CAIS is 1 in 99,000. That is the complete variant with female phenotype.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  99. But their definition of “Intersex” leaves a bit to be desired.

    JD (3b5483)

  100. 85. …If you’re born with both parts, what are you?

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/11/2015 @ 7:44 am

    Bruce Jenner wasn’t born with both parts. That’s an entirely different issue.

    Steve57 (e468ba) — 5/11/2015 @ 8:31 am

    No, he wasn’t, as far as I know. You continue your reign as non-sequitur king.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  101. *failmerican* i mean

    1 in 99,000 means you could knock on doors all year long and not find one of these creatures

    you’d probably have more better luck on craig’s list

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  102. The incidence of transsexualism has been estimated at 1:30,000 for male to “female,” and 1:100,000 for female to “male,” based on actual surgical procedures,

    The Dana who isn’t a doctor (f6a568) — 5/11/2015 @ 8:25 am

    I wasn’t citing surgical procedures, though.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  103. carlitos, I imagine that in your universe your comment @99 made some sort of sense.

    My sympathies, sir. I hope you get better. I doubt it, though.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  104. to be fair, long term exposure to the Kardashians, is not good for anybody,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  105. don’ be mean Mr. 57

    some people are sensitive to the trannies and you know what that’s ok

    we need people to perform that role

    this way the ones of us what are perfectly content to go through life oblivious to trannies can do so knowing that these trannies have people who care about them keeping an eye out for them

    good good

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  106. …and we have a rival for the title of non-sequitur king. What did anything I have said here have to do with Bruce Jenner or the Kardashians? Anyone? Bueller?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  107. Mr 57 wrote:

    I’ll let you in on a secret. Bruce Jenner and guys like him don’t actually know what it’s like to be a woman.

    Hell, Bruce Jenner thinks he’ll be a Kardashian woman! Or maybe a Cardassian woman.

    The snarky Dana (f6a568)

  108. that’s a plausible alternative, St. Louis has got it’s act together otherwise,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  109. i have a tranny story

    this one time on the brown line i got to my stop and since i go all the way round the loop the car gets pretty empty by the time i get to state n lake

    so this one day when I got to my stop it was just me and a tranny on the train

    she looked like a college student, and she seemed kind of angry

    i wondered if she was angry cause she had really bad skin

    i thought to myself how it must suck to be a tranny but to have bad skin on top of it must be really hard

    but you know we all have our crosses to bear

    -fin-

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  110. you would think they would have larger concerns:

    http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=356663

    narciso (ee1f88)

  111. carlitos – I was not referencing that 0.05% of the population that are born “intersexed”. I don’t know where you got 1%, as the Intersex Society of North America only claims 1 out of 2000.

    JD (ef7925) — 5/11/2015 @ 8:44 am

    OK, JD. My number was actually from the wikipedia, which said that 1.7% of newborns had ambiguous genitalia.

    Let’s use your number, as I suspect that reporting is inaccurate anyway, plus it makes no difference to the larger point. 0.05% of the population is born intersexed. That’s about 150,000 people in the United States.

    Should we:
    – mock them?
    – declare that “the only consistent thing is opposition to the idea that people are “male and female” and that they are different from each other.”
    – cite Genesis
    – go off on tangents about child molesters

    or:

    Develop fact-based solutions for these issues.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  112. can we develop fact-based solutions to this statistically picayune lil problem without the national soros radio bombarding us with abstruse tranny lore and the rest of the failmerican propaganda slut media proclaiming that failmerica is having a transgender moment

    it’s contrived and stupid and I’m not gonna play along with this nonsense

    plus it’s almost lunchtime

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  113. Not listening to NPR is a start. I have completely replaced it with BBC. Today’s lunch – beef barley stew, homemade.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  114. yes yes i actually did have a weak moment and found NPR when i first moved here

    but it was in the daytime on a weekend and it was a bunch of local losers whinging aboot gentrification

    me personally I adore gentrification

    watching a lil neighborhood come up in the world is exciting and gratifying

    then i found 99.5 which does the trick for the alarm clock done and done

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  115. enjoy the stew we’re at the tail end of stew season huh

    i already made my first pasta salad of spring

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  116. Carlitos – do you see me mocking them?

    JD (ef7925)

  117. i think we can mock “america’s transgender moment”

    i think we have to

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  118. Ambiguous genitalia is a birth deformity, just like so many others. There’s no reason to treat it any differently, or to pretend that it’s normal. It does present a difficulty in figuring out whether the baby is a boy or a girl, though undoubtedly it is one or the other. A DNA test may help. And indeed in such cases one should monitor the child’s development for any signs that one got the gender assignment wrong. But that’s a far cry from acknowledging the claim that even children born with completely monoguous (if that’s a word) genitalia may actually be of the opposite gender, or need to be “assigned” a gender.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  119. Sorry, JD – didn’t mean you personally. Just summing up the comments here. Some kids have gender identity issues, so look, a squirrel, I mean Bruce Jenner.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  120. This was an interesting article, about the “tolerant” activists.

    Not just about the activists, but about the issue itself. Even if it’s true, as the activists claim, that some children who believe they are the opposite sex are right, it’s also true that some (many) are not. You can’t just go along with what a five-year-old says, even if you can’t just dismiss it.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  121. 120. …You can’t just go along with what a five-year-old says, even if you can’t just dismiss it.

    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/11/2015 @ 4:16 pm

    You’re kind of missing the point.

    The adults have screwed everything up

    Say hello to Mao’s Red Guard.

    Steve57 (e468ba)

  122. Steve, no matter what your view on the issue, it’s undeniable that some of the kids in this “club” really do have gender issues that won’t just go away by themselves. Some of them will turn out in adulthood to be so dysfunctional in their current social roles that changing sexes, or at least public gender roles, may be the best solution to their problem. The problem this “club” is trying to address is real. My objection to it is that while it may be helping those who really have unresolvable issues, it’s harming those who are just confused, and who can be helped by far less drastic means, as the Canadian clinic in JD’s link is doing. And I suspect that the number of kids who are harmed by this approach is higher than the number helped.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  123. Thanks for the link, JD.
    it confirms the suspicions of some of us.

    A personal recap:
    Dana brought it up and many of us (including Dana?) thought it was self-evident that this was a bad idea.
    Not because we thought children and their parents did not sometimes struggle with these issues.
    Not because we thought such children should be mocked.
    But because we thought there was little to gain in putting a number of confused 5-12 year olds and their parents together to share and multiply each others confusion.

    It was suggested that we should give “fact based” treatment.
    OK. If one wants to obtain evidence for a “fact based treatment” one usually at some point does a comparison of two different approaches to the same problem and see if one is better than the other.
    To do that requires enough patients to see if there really is a consistent difference, and a long enough study period for the treatment and condition in question.
    And one other important thing,
    it would be nice if there is an agreed upon treatment goal.

    Even if one could find enough patients in one local for such a club, how long would you need to follow the children and their families?
    And much more importantly,
    what is the goal of treatment?
    To help the children slowly build a gender identity consistent with their biology?
    To help the children solidify their conviction as to what gender they are?
    To convince the parents that gender identity conflicts are real and OK, so let the child be what they want to be?
    To do some of each depending on the child in the midst of the chaos?
    How about first evaluating the child to see if there are identifiable specific issues that the child is facing that has led to the behavior/conflict, such as sexual abuse as the example in the link. If a young girl has been molested and wants to dream she is a boy so that she’ll never be molested again, that is very reasonable in one way, but helping her to identify as a boy doesn’t sound like the best approach.

    A group for anorexia makes sense, everyone wants to learn to eat in a healthy way and deal with body image and control issues.
    A group for children with cancer makes sense, everybody would like to go to camp and have fun in spite of their cancer.
    but a group where you have parents arguing with each other whether they should help Johnny identify as a boy or encourage him to wear dresses and call “herself” “Johnnie” sounds like a bad prescription.

    Once upon a time the pro-abortion argument was “it’s just a blob of tissue, it’s not a person”; now many want the child to be killed if it survives an attempted abortion and is viable outside of the womb. Some Ivy League folks even want to say that a newborn human really isn’t a “person” yet and be killed up to a certain date after birth.
    Once upon a time people just wanted homosexuals to be left alone and treated with respect (I’m all for that). Then it was homosexuals should have SSM (which I would have been OK with if they left it at that, which I knew they wouldn’t). Now one must endorse SSM with your behavior in the public arena, whether you agree or not.

    And you don’t think that there is an agenda here to promote gender identity confusion rather than to help confused children and their parents?

    It would be interesting to explore the background of the people behind this effort in St. Louis.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  124. who’s the leader of the club what’s made for you an me

    T-R-A!

    N-N-Y!

    H-E-S-H-E!

    get your purse mikey it’s time for tranny club!

    oh boy mom I love tranny club!

    i know you do sweetie.

    happyfeet (831175)

  125. Yes, there is one mocker,
    but I don’t know anyone else who is sympathetic with that view.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  126. of course nobody’s sympathetic

    america are having a transgender moment!

    after which i trust you will all wash your hands

    happyfeet (831175)

  127. Looking up more about the club,
    it seems that it is a club for transgender children and their parents who want to reinforce their chosen identity
    it appears not to be a program of the hospital for any kind of evaluation and “treatment”, whatever the treatment would be and what the goal would be.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)


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