Patterico's Pontifications

5/3/2015

Two Killed At Cartoon Contest Of Muhammed Event In Texas

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:53 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Two gunmen were shot and killed by the police in Garland, Texas tonight when they opened fire at the Muhammad Art Exhibit and Contest:

Garland police spokesman Joe Harn told The Washington Post that the shooting occurred Sunday night outside the Curtis Culwell Center in Garland, about 20 miles northeast of Dallas, when two armed men pulled up in front of the event center and both started shooting at a Garland Independent School District security officer. In response, Garland police opened fire on the two gunmen, he said.

Both gunmen have been killed, Harn said. The security officer who was shot has been treated and released from a nearby hospital.

The incident occurred outside the Curtis Culwell Center where the New York-based American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI) was hosting a contest that would award $10,000 for the best cartoon depicting the prophet Muhammad, according to the Associated Press. But Harn said its still unclear whether the shooting was related to the event.

After the shooting, attendees were evacuated by school buses. Police suspect the vehicle may contain an incendiary device and the bomb squad is on the scene, according to a statement from police. Nearby businesses such as Academy Sports, Walmart and Sam’s were also evacuated.

Event organizer Pamela Geller has posted tweets from Muslims voicing their support of the gunmen.

(h/t Ag80)

–Dana

ADDED: Unbelievably, from New York Times reporter Rukmini Callimachi:

If you’re a member of the press, the very, very last thing you should ever say or think is free speech aside. Could there be any more powerful statement to evidence a critical lack of understanding about and diminished view of our country’s most important foundational cornerstone?

397 Responses to “Two Killed At Cartoon Contest Of Muhammed Event In Texas”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. Twitter is sadly predictable on this. More “punching down” silliness.

    Simon Jester (c9ebdd)

  3. The chalk outlines of their bodies should win the contest.

    Icy (a9d9c1)

  4. I agree, Simon Jester.

    Look for the SPLC to be quoted extensively on Geller’s group being a hate group.

    Geller’s group was awarding $10,000 for best Muhammed cartoon in the competition tonight.

    Dana (86e864)

  5. R.I.P. Grace Lee Whitney, who played Yoeman Rand in Star Trek: The Original Series

    Icy (a9d9c1)

  6. Geert Wilders was at the event according to his Twitter page, although he had left just before the shooting. He also posted a photo of himself with the SWAT team.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  7. Free speech aside, why would anyone do something as provocative as hosting a “Muhammad drawing contest”?

    Really?? This is from a New York Times REPORTER and she wants to put free speech aside?? Giant red flag for the NYT management, free speech advocates, and readers as well. Guess who will be rooting her on…

    Dana (86e864)

  8. The whole sentence should have been in quotation marks: “Free speech aside, why would anyone do something as provocative as hosting a “Muhammad drawing contest”?

    Dana (86e864)

  9. she covers the Syrian conflict, that has nothing to do with Islam,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  10. Yeah, narciso, I don’t care what she or anyone else covers. If you’re a member of the press, the very, very last thing you should ever say or think is free speech aside. Could there be any more powerful statement to evidence a critical lack of understanding and diminished view of our very foundation?

    Dana (86e864)

  11. except you know that isn’t true, Dana, that’s just ‘getting on our high horse’ Carlos Slim’s descends even further than I thought possible, after Boston.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  12. UPDATE, 11:50 PM: An FBI joint terrorism task force is inside where the attendees are being kept.”

    Dana (86e864)

  13. I posted this on the old thread before I realized a new thread was open. I think it is important that along with planned events for demonstration of free speech, the aspect of common sense related to public safety also must be considered.
    == people have the right to express their views without violence or retaliation.(Ag80) ==

    Well yes, of course they should have the right to expect that. But so do the people in the neighboring Walmart and Sam’s Club and other businesses who had nothing to do with the Mohammed Art Contest have the right to assume they’ll be able to run their businesses and park their cars and safely do their shopping on a Sunday evening.

    As a precaution, nearby businesses including a Walmart and Sam’s Club were evacuated, the Dallas News reports.

    A 1,000-foot radius around the Walmart was initially shut down and multiple businesses in the area were evacuated. The area shut down by officials expanded throughout the evening.

    elissa (227e55)

  14. elissa: I posted a response to you in the old thread. Just so you know.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  15. I’ve added the unbelievable tweet from the NYT reporter to the post:

    ADDED: Unbelievably, from New York Times reporter Rukmini Callimachi:

    Free speech aside, why would anyone do something as provocative as hosting a “Muhammad drawing contest”?

    If you’re a member of the press, the very, very last thing you should ever say or think is free speech aside. Could there be any more powerful statement to evidence a critical lack of understanding about and diminished view of our country’s most important foundational cornerstone?

    Dana (86e864)

  16. From the New York Times’ Editorial dated January 7, 2015, entitled “The Charlie Hebdo Massacre in Paris”:

    “It is absurd to suggest that the way to avoid terrorist attacks is to let the terrorists dictate standards in a democracy.”

    DRJ (e80d46)

  17. This is Ag80’s comment from the other thread, which I think is worth repeating:

    39.I’m not disagreeing with you elissa. I completely understand what you are saying.
    .
    The fault doesn’t belong the people who organized or attended the event. The fault does not belong to the ones in nearby businesses. The fault belongs to the ones who decided the event should be ended violently.

    We cannot allow the violent to prevent discourse, regardless of the ramifications. Should they have taken such into consideration. Certainly.

    That is easy for me to say but, seriously, it is an important point. Peaceful people should be able to gather peacefully.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  18. Free speech means protecting all speech, not just the easy bits. Y’know, tree of liberty and all that.

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  19. the Times doesn’t really believe that when pressed,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  20. “Free speech aside, why would anyone do something as provocative as hosting a ‘Muhammad drawing contest’”?

    Because, as a free people, we can. Besides, is there anything more provocative than shooting up an art exhibition because you don’t agree with the exhibitors’ politics or religion? I don’t see where the NYT twit thinks that (or thousands of other similar acts of violence by muslims) are provocative.

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  21. The point was made Pamella Geller. My question is should this contest be held again this year in a regular neighborhood. I don’t think so.

    seeRpea (81fcfe)

  22. it seems a little passive voice, terrorist attack free speech event,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  23. Unbelievably, from New York Times reporter Rukmini Callimachi:

    I notice she has tweeted about the Geller piece, perhaps because even she felt a twinge of sheepishness about just how much of an apologist she is towards a reactionary theology.

    Rukmini Callimachi ‏@rcallimachi 42m42 minutes ago

    Pamela Geller claims that its not just ISIS that supports shooting in Texas, but “run of the mill moderates.” http://pamelageller.com

    Mark (607f93)

  24. Ag80,

    Your comment was excellent and it so clearly expressed the correct way to look at tonigh’s situation, and all the others of this nature that will surely follow. This particularly: The fault belongs to the ones who decided the event should be ended violently. Yes.

    Frankly, I’m not keen on the event itself. It is not something I could ever get involved with or cheer on. With that, though, you are spot-on in your assessment that Peaceful people should be able to gather peacefully. If we lose that in practical terms, we lose everything.

    Dana (86e864)

  25. “Free speech aside” should be the new official motto of the NYT. It perfectly reflects the Pinch Sulzberger world view and mission statement.

    Estragon (ada867)

  26. Call for a Mr. Worthing on the white phone…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  27. Attention! Anyone who hates their mother or mother-in-law:
    If you send her cash, Hillary Clinton might call them up for mothers day.

    http://weaselzippers.us/222526-hillary-clinton-give-your-mom-a-call-from-me-for-mother's-day/

    elissa (227e55)

  28. Wow. Of all the places you might think to go on a shooting spree, an event like this in texas would have to be about the stupidest possible choice.

    I mean, wow. That’s real advanced stupid there.

    scrubone (c3104f)

  29. Pamela Geller is a bit of a provocateur but she has a right to be so. I would keep the next event away from areas with innocent and unassociated passersby.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  30. Odds that the appropriate authorities will withhold a service medal to the cop who was shot just as the military withheld Purple Hearts from those shot at Ft. Hood?

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  31. Sweet jaysus, Elissa, my mother would have a stroke if she received a call from that harridan.

    #BanHarridanHillary!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  32. re #5: she was in her mid 30s when she played Yeoman Rand??!?
    i’m shocked, i would have said 20-21.
    wasn’t she in a soap opera on ABC as well?

    seeRpea (81fcfe)

  33. #TexasAkbar!

    redc1c4 (cf3b04)

  34. Let my synopsize this horrid event with “the quickness”.

    I was HORRIFIED at the GELLER event. I mean it was VICIOUS and RACIST. It upset me GREATLY.

    I was SO UPSET, that I dropped my BEAKER OF JESUS IMMERSED IN PISS!!!!

    Gus (7cc192)

  35. MIKE K. You made mention of JESSE JACKSON/AL SHARPTON/BARACK ODINGLEBALLS et al, being PROVOCATEURS?????? Ooooooops, you said PAM GELLER was a PROVOCATEUR??? This shyte is easy. Most of America exists on I.Q. 64 LEVEL.

    Gus (7cc192)

  36. As I went to the VIRGIN MARY COW SHYTE exhibit, I became REALLY REALLY REALLY angry at the thought that MUHAMMED might be cast in a PEDOPHILLIC light!!! I immediately thought of the WAR ON ISLAMIC PRE-TEEEEEEEN WYMYN.

    Gus (7cc192)

  37. We cannot allow the violent to prevent discourse, regardless of the ramifications. Should they have taken such into consideration. Certainly.

    Given how quickly said idiots were “handled” by security, I think they did take that possibility into consideration. Good on ’em and good on the Garland PD.

    Bill M (906260)

  38. Call for a Mr. Worthing on the white phone…
    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/3/2015 @ 9:51 pm

    — Mr. Worthing is tearing up the Twitter at this very moment, Mr. Colonel.

    Icy (a9d9c1)

  39. Has Brian Ross identified the two deceased Tea Party shooters yet?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  40. No, but Brian Williams was there exchanging fire.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  41. …Both gunmen have been killed, Harn said. The security officer who was shot has been treated and released from a nearby hospital…

    Sorry about the security officer.

    May all your Muhammad cartoon contests be held in Texas.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  42. how bout we round these muzzies up and shoot em.
    before they shoot us.

    mg (31009b)

  43. just think of what you could do with ten thousand dollars

    happyfeet (831175)

  44. I’m thinking what I would do with 10,000 rounds.
    These thugs killed one of my best friends, I want revenge on these pukes.

    mg (31009b)

  45. FWIW-
    “Is ISIS Muslim”- yes
    http://danielshayesteh.blogspot.com/

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  46. Dangle the right bait and vermin will conveniently walk into the kill zone, and right on time too. Kool!

    ropelight (f98438)

  47. Most of America exists on I.Q. 64 LEVEL.

    Gus (7cc192) — 5/3/2015 @ 11:06 pm

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. That’s funny in about 10 different ways. Thank you.

    Pamela Geller is a hateful person, full of idiocy, but she (and Geert Wilders) should be allowed to display their nonsense in the daylight. This was a horrible tragedy, that could have been even worse. Thank God the only deaths were the gunmen.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  48. how bout we round these muzzies up and shoot em.
    before they shoot us.

    mg (31009b) — 5/4/2015 @ 2:06 am

    Good idea. It’s Texas, so they already have cattle cars. I’d start in Amarillo and work your way out. If any of the “muzzies” can eat the 72 oz. steak with all the trimmings, they should get a pardon. Maybe we can do a reality show for Pay-Per-View.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  49. if they can eat the whole steak but not all the trimmings then they have to get into the cattle car

    it doesn’t seem fair but you have to have rules

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  50. One of the shooters has been identified as Elton Simpson, from Phoenix, who had converted to Islam at “a young age.” The other was reportedly Simpson’s roommate in Arizona.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  51. More on Simpson here.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  52. My link is the same one narciso posted. We’re on the same page, narciso.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  53. so I think a caption change is in order, Islamist target free speech in texas, it turns out badly for them,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  54. Pamela Geller is a hateful person, full of idiocy, but she (and Geert Wilders) should be allowed to display their nonsense in the daylight. This was a horrible tragedy, that could have been even worse. Thank God the only deaths were the gunmen.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 6:32 am

    How is Pamela Geller a hateful person?

    Are the 2 Muslims who were killed trying to murder people hateful or were they just misunderstood?

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  55. they were followers of Awlaki from their twitter, and likely tied to Al Shabaab, and even Syria, if one looks into it,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  56. je suis pamela

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  57. Are the 2 Muslims who were killed trying to murder people hateful or were they just misunderstood?

    Tanny O’Haley (c674c7) — 5/4/2015 @ 7:49 am

    Why would you ask this?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  58. At the Garland PD press conference:

    The security guard who was shot was not armed. A police officer at the scene shot and killed both shooters.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  59. The officer used his duty pistol. The shooters were using assault rifles. The police chief said his officer “did a good job.”

    DRJ (e80d46)

  60. Pamela Geller is a hateful person, full of idiocy,

    I see that “Gus” included me in one of his (her?) lunatic rants.

    I think Geller is a provocateur but she should be able to do so without gunmen coming to kill her and others at her event. The city of New York just banned all “political” advertising from city buses because they lost a court decision and decided to “ban all political ads.”

    She is outspoken and has been banned from entering Britain along with others described as “anti-Muslim.”

    The organisation’s aggressively anti-Islam website promises to “act against the treason being committed by national, state, and local government officials, the mainstream media, and others in their capitulation to the global jihad and Islamic supremacism.”

    Britain, of course, is in the throes of what another writer termed “Islamification” as comments negative toward radical Islam can get one arrested.

    The Home Office said Geller had been told not to travel to Britain because she had set up organisations “described as anti-Muslim hate groups”.

    Yes, talking about the Muslim plans to kill Jews is termed “hate speech” by some. Most of whom plan to kill Jews.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  61. Tanny O’Haley (c674c7) — 5/4/2015 @ 7:49 am

    Why would you ask this?

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:06 am

    Because that’s how I believe the media and left will spin this.

    I don’t know much about Pamela Geller other than the bus and subway ads. You stated that “Pamela Geller is a hateful person“. How is Pamela Geller a hateful person? What specifically has she done or said that is hateful?

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  62. He also said the shooters were wearing some kind of body armor or protection.

    No bomb was found in the car but the police were unable to see inside the luggage in the car, so they detonated the vehicle to be safe.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  63. 60.

    Are the 2 Muslims who were killed trying to murder people hateful or were they just misunderstood?

    Tanny O’Haley (c674c7) — 5/4/2015 @ 7:49 am

    Why would you ask this?
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:06 am

    Because it comes up now and again.

    Thanks for confirming certain thoughts that just naturally happen would be, in your world, crimes.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  64. The shooters started shooting as the unarmed security guard got out of his vehicle, which may be why the guard was hit in the leg. The shooters continued shooting at the security guard and police officer, and the officer shot and killed them. The police chief said the officer did what he was trained to do. A member of the Dallas media said the officer did “a hell of a job.” That’s not your East coast media.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  65. so it’s interesting, how certain persons are focus of government scrutiny and others not,

    http://twitchy.com/2015/05/04/well-known-by-fbi-suspect-in-garland-shooting-idd-as-elton-simpson/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  66. At the Garland PD press conference:

    The security guard who was shot was not armed. A police officer at the scene shot and killed both shooters.

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:16 am

    I was wondering why they had an unarmed security guard? I’m sorry the police officer was shot and I’m glad he killed the 2 Muslim men. I’m really glad their plans for death were thwarted.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  67. carlitos, being led to the slaughter, looks to his fellow victims an considers who he can convice of Islamophbia.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  68. Which one of the Copts beheaded on that Libyan beach was the biggest Islamophobe, carlitos?

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  69. You know what was lacking here? That’s right folks, a trigger warning.

    f1guyus (9cbd15)

  70. stipulated neither Geller nor Wilders have much regard for that faith, then again they are familiar with it’s foundational text,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  71. The security guard was employed by the Garland ISD (independent school district). He was there because this event was held in a community center owned by the Garland ISD. Many, perhaps most, school districts in Texas use unarmed guards.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  72. There were also police there, and the police chief confirmed the event organizers paid $10,000 for the officers to be there. He would not say how many officers were there.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  73. Isn’t it possible to both (a) support the constitutional right to free speech, even offensive speech, and (b) recognize that it’s not always a good idea to engage in unnecessarily provocative speech? If I walk past a police officer and say “fuck the police,” I think that’s constitutionally protected, but I’m also pretty certain that I’m going to get harassed (and maybe roughed up) for engaging in that action.

    Jonny Scrum-half (a119ad)

  74. Greetings:

    Strange as it may seem to some, what this situation brought to my mind was my favorite Platoon Sergeant’s repeated teaching that “in the infantry game, there are two basic plays, “Find ’em, fix ’em, and finish ’em” and “Let ’em find you, fix ’em, and finish ’em.”

    Islam is nothing more than the globalization of 7th Century A.D. (if I may) predatory Arab tribal culture under a thin veneer of religion. If your plan doesn’t include constraining, undermining, or eradicating Islam, you don’t have a plan. What you have is a hope.

    That Geller broad, she has a plan.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  75. 60.
    Are the 2 Muslims who were killed trying to murder people hateful or were they just misunderstood?
    Tanny O’Haley (c674c7) — 5/4/2015 @ 7:49 am

    Why would you ask this?
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:06 am

    Because it comes up now and again.

    Thanks for confirming certain thoughts that just naturally happen would be, in your world, crimes.

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:23 am

    Yes, asking for clarification is exactly like suggesting that something should be a crime. Your reading comprehension continues to excel.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  76. Which one of the Copts beheaded on that Libyan beach was the biggest Islamophobe, carlitos?

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:31 am

    Dude – do these non-sequiturs make sense in your mind? Is the topic not visible on your web browser?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  77. Fox News has an interview with Pamela Geller that is worth watching. Of the three Fox interviewers, one has a clue (on the left), one seems to be searching for something by he’s not sure what (on the right,) and the third, the leggy one, is wondering why we can’t all just get along, and why on earth would Pamela want to do such a horrible thing. This is fair and balanced.

    One thing brought out in the interview was that this facility was used by muslims immediately following the Paris massacre for a conference on the need for us to be more tolerant of Sharia. Lovely.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  78. I heard a report this morning (CNN, I think) that a SWAT team was inside the building ready to react if need be.

    If you want to judge Pamela Geller for yourselves, her blog is Atlas Shrugs. As I remarked earlier, if she does not hate Muslims, nobody does. Which does not mean the UK had a right to keep her from entering there because of her politics, or give anyone the right to try to kill her.

    But it is like the Hebdo victims. A person is not righteous simply because an evil person attempts to make them their victim, and an unjudt person is not rendered just simply because he himself is the target of someone else’s injustice.

    kishnevi (870883)

  79. Carlitos, I’m asking for clarification following your @77. I have no clue.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  80. That Geller broad, she has a plan.

    True. But her plan seems to genocide.

    kishnevi (870883)

  81. No bomb was found in the car but the police were unable to see inside the luggage in the car, so they detonated the vehicle to be safe.

    “…the car, a late model Mecca Al Midifaa SS Jihadi…”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  82. Steve at 81
    I think Carlitos has a problem realizing satiric comments are actually satiric in these threads.

    kishnevi (870883)

  83. Carlitos, I’m asking for clarification following your @77. I have no clue.

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:49 am

    Regarding post #77:

    Steve, my man, what did me asking Tammy to clarify “Why would you ask this?” have to do with you asking me “Thanks for confirming certain thoughts that just naturally happen would be, in your world, crimes.”?

    If that’s not a complete non-sequitur, what is?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  84. that seems overbroad, kish,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  85. Obvious entrapment.

    These Draw Muhammad Art Exhibit guys advertise and these mentally defective religious zealots show up because they can’t help themselves.

    The SCOTUS would probably declare these exhibits unconstitutional because they prey on the mentally defective (ask any progressive, religious folks are mentally defective).

    Neo (d1c681)

  86. Pamela Geller is a hateful person, full of idiocy, but she (and Geert Wilders) should be allowed to display their nonsense in the daylight. This was a horrible tragedy, that could have been even worse. Thank God the only deaths were the gunmen.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 6:32 am

    Okay, for the 3rd time. How is Pamela Geller a hateful person? What specifically has she done or said that is hateful?

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  87. Which one of the Copts beheaded on that Libyan beach was the biggest Islamophobe, carlitos?

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:31 am

    Dude – do these non-sequiturs make sense in your mind? Is the topic not visible on your web browser?
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:46 am

    What was the Copts’ biggest crime in your opinion?

    That they had their heads lopped off for failing to convert?

    Or they thought bad thoughts about their executioners?

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  88. What was the Copts’ biggest crime in your opinion?

    That they had their heads lopped off for failing to convert?

    Or they thought bad thoughts about their executioners?

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:58 am

    Steve – dude. What do “the Copts” have to do with anything that I have said?

    Here is the wikipedia definition of non-sequitur. Give it a read.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  89. seeing as it looks like an attempted hit on Wilders and associates, by an aspiring Al Shabaab member, maybe a little context is in order,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  90. the danger in making cartoons about prophets and such is that people might start worshiping the cartoons instead of the for reals prophet guy

    a lot of people do not understand this and they think people like these gunmen in Garland are just overreacting

    While details about the gunmen, including their religion or their motive, weren’t immediately known, depictions of Prophet Mohammed are considered blasphemous by many Muslims.

    The prohibition against illustrating the Prophet Mohammed began as an attempt to ward off idol worship, which was widespread in Islam’s Arabian birthplace. But in recent years, it has taken a deadly toll.

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  91. kisnevi: Genocide???

    Are you suggesting that every single muslim is going to attempt to kill Pamela? And that one small police department will have enough ammunition to dispatch them all to the fate they seek?

    And why genocide? Suicide is more accurate.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  92. ok then they are going to take that tack, are they,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  93. carlitos, your wording and demeanor @60 indicates you have a problem with “just naturally comes up.”

    Why does Tanney O’Haley ask what he asks?

    It just naturally comes up. It occurs to people.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  94. Narciso, the impression I get from reading her is that she things the only good Moslem is a dead one, and we should be doing everything we can to makes sure all Moslems are good Moslems, so to speak. Maybe she doesn’t want every single Moslem in the world dead, but you would never know it from her writing. The only more rabidly antiIslamic person I know of is Anne Barnhardt (www.barnhdart.biz). And it doesn’t help that sometimes her articles are recycles of Nazi propaganda against Jews back in the 1930s (for instance, her arguments against halal). I’mm willing to think she doesn’t realize what she is recycling.

    Tanny, I mentioned her blog, but here is a link to her website. http://pamelageller.com/
    I think Carlitos is justified in calling her hateful, but judge for yourself.

    kishnevi (870883)

  95. bobathome. No, I mean Geller wouldn’t mind genocide of all Moslems. The link is in comment 96. If you are not familiar with her articles, you can see them there and judge for yourself, as I said above.

    kishnevi (870883)

  96. could you explain that last part about Nazi propaganda, when that seems to be the other side’s deal?

    narciso (ee1f88)

  97. Okay, for the 3rd time. How is Pamela Geller a hateful person? What specifically has she done or said that is hateful?

    Tanny O’Haley (c674c7) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:56 am

    Admittedly, a lot of my opinion is from reading her blog for years, which I can’t post here. When video became possible, those first videoblogs whining about the islamization of America were horrific. I’m going to try and find a few examples. Her birther nonsense, to me, was enough evidence of “hate,” in that it was motivated solely by racism.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  98. carlitos, your wording and demeanor @60 indicates you have a problem with “just naturally comes up.”

    Why does Tanney O’Haley ask what he asks?

    It just naturally comes up. It occurs to people.

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 9:13 am

    Um, OK. So, when you mused that such thoughts would be, ‘in my world,’ crimes, you were just naturally saying what comes up, what occurs to you? You live in a world where my innocuous request for clarification translates into some Orwellian thought crime situation? Are you a little bit paranoid?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  99. consider any of the Salafi chain, CAIR, ISNA, MPAC, MSNA, who are always trotted out as the legitimate voices of the ummah, and their spokesman,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  100. ,

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  101. Pamela Geller is not hateful. I met her a couple of times. We did the kissy face thing. Which is admittedly not dispositive.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  102. Hateful people steal planes and fly them into buildings.

    mg (31009b)

  103. Ok, carlitos. Clarification.

    What do you mean by that, as oppose to why do you ask that?

    Two different questions.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  104. As far as I know, mg, Ms. Geller has never stolen an airplane.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  105. Pol Pot was super charming. I grabbed his ass and he laughed.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  106. Why does it matter what carlitos, kishnevi, or anyone thinks about Geller? Whether she’s a saint or the devil, she still has the right to free speech. Trying to taint her message, or suggesting she is too provocative or that this is too dangerous an event, are back-door ways of saying people shouldn’t be allowed to speak out on inflammatory topics.

    The people who caused this are the shooters. The people who are willing to stand up to public ridicule and violence by speaking out should be applauded – whether you agree with them or not – because they are using speech to air their concerns and grievances. Speech is what keeps people from becoming so disillusioned that they resort to violence.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  107. Which admittedly is not dispositive.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  108. DRJ and I are in violent agreement, as usual.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  109. but he was trained at the sorbonne, so all is forgiven,

    who is trafficking in Hatem in Europe and the US,?

    http://pamelageller.com/2015/05/indiana-senate-passes-anti-bds-resolution-leftwing-jewish-bds-donors-shamed-again.html/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  110. Narciso @98
    Most prominent example of that in my mind is her posts against halal. Which echo rather eerily the Nazi campaign against kosher slaughter. It’s as if the virus migrated to a new host, and adapted accordingly.

    That is not to say that she realizes this. I can imagine her finding them already adapted to halal in other places with no reference to their origin. But it does speak poorly of her if she doesn’t recognize the parallel. And even more poorly if she does recognize it but doesn’t care.

    kishnevi (870883)

  111. I hope we do agree, carlitos. Do you support and defend Geller’s right to organize this conference?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  112. Absolutely. I trust that DRJ and others would support a “draw Jesus in some urine” conference?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  113. What DRJ said in #108.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  114. 108. she still has the right to free speech. Trying to taint her message, or suggesting she is too provocative or that this is too dangerous an event, are back-door ways of saying people shouldn’t be allowed to speak out on inflammatory topics…

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/4/2015 @ 9:32 am

    One of the wondrous things about anonymity. You have to deal with the message. You can’t simply dispose of the messenger through assissination.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  115. DRJ@108
    Everyone has the right to spout hateful ideas. In Geller’s case, she espouses extirpating Islam, and verbally abusing, ridiculing and provoking Moslems is a tool towards that end. (This is in contrast to Aaron Worthing, who really is in it for the free speech issues).

    She has the right to verbally abuse, ridicule and provoke Moslems, and to do so without fear of being attacked. But she has no special merit, or deserves any applause, for using her right of free speech to those ends.

    kishnevi (870883)

  116. Trying to taint her message, or suggesting she is too provocative or that this is too dangerous an event, are back-door ways of saying people shouldn’t be allowed to speak out on inflammatory topics.

    Complete bullsh1t, I would defend to the death morons like Pamela Geller to spew their nonsense.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  117. (the right of) – bad edit.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  118. it’s odd how you miss the organized campaign to annihilate the state of Israel, which begins in the Middle East yet works its way through Europe and the US

    narciso (ee1f88)

  119. I’ll take complete non-sequiturs for $800, Alex.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  120. Why does it matter what carlitos, kishnevi, or anyone thinks about Geller?

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/4/2015 @ 9:32 am

    It’s a trigger for me DRJ. When I read a statement from a person on how a person is hateful, stupid, hated by voters though voted in multiple times without examples that back up their claims, it makes me curious. I have no control over myself :), I have to ask the reason why.

    It is instructive. In Carlitos statement he gave 3 reasons he believes that Pamela Geller is hateful.

    1. Blog posts that he read with no specific statements from those blog posts of hateful speech.

    2. Videos which he said that he would “try to find a few examples”.

    3. Her “birther nonsense”, which though may be misguided, I don’t see how it is hateful.

    People have done this to many conservatives, Ted Cruz, Scott Walker, Rush Limbaugh…

    I believe it might be defamation to state unfounded allegations. So when I see them, even if I don’t know the person, I would like more than opinion stated as a fact, I’d like proof. In some cases like Carlitos’ 3rd reason I can disagree with their reasons.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  121. I’m not a huge fan of Geller, but she really did a great job on CNN. She was coherent and calm and persuasive.

    No one else in this country is speaking for free speech; I’m glad she did.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  122. Ah, defamation. Well, I’ll try to avoid that. For what’s it is worth, I really did read her blog for years and years; my opinion of her is not a new one. Same with Gates of Vienna, who are also of the same bent.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  123. Narciso, two wrongs do not make a right. And two evils do not make a good.

    kishnevi (870883)

  124. 118. …I would defend to the death morons like Pamela Geller to spew their nonsense.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/4/2015 @ 9:46 am

    Would you? I have a letter from the Navy, informing me I’m entitled to a pension because I defended the right of flag burners to be wrong.

    Not that I mind. Or that’s the measure. What I am saying is the First Amendment is about the right to be wrong.

    And I would defend that right to the death. And I have a track record.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  125. mischaracterization is more accurate, the difference is this, if one speaks out against Salafism, there are brutal and immediate consequences, when one defends Israel, one much couch it in enough equivocation to stock a furniture store,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  126. Would you?
    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 10:06 am

    Yes, although it’s admittedly a hypothetical situation. In any case, I’m well-enough armed to do so. God forbid.

    Anyway, thank you for your service. What might your latest missive have to do with our conversation?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  127. I got a letter from the government
    The other day
    I opened and read it
    It said they were suckers
    They wanted me for their army or whatever
    Picture me given’ a damn – I said never

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  128. Add your voice to Pam Gellar’s American Freedom Quilt!

    Sponsor your quilt square today and become part of the tapestry of freedom!

    You can sponsor a quilt square for just $40 – all profits go towards defraying the security costs associated with next year’s art show to be held in tbd. Be a part of an authentic American Tradition!

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  129. lulz

    carlitos (c24ed5)


  130. Complete bullsh1t, I would defend to the death morons like Pamela Geller to spew their nonsense.

    You may have that opportunity one day.

    Colonel Haiku (39d859)

  131. We’ve been down this road before, ironically over the same topic. Reasonable people disagree and the discussion is always interesting. I’m not trying to limit the discussion – far from it – but I think it’s important we agree on one thing: Every American has the right to free speech.

    PS carlitos – I agree with Patterico’s statement about Serrano’s Christ exhibit.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  132. when one defends Israel, one much couch it in enough equivocation to stock a furniture store,

    Not among the people I know.

    Granted, the fact that a large section of those people go to the same synagogue as I do probably has a significant impact on that.

    And online, I’ve gotten more heat for explaining why climate change was a scam, and even that was no worse than being charged with the crime of being a dupe of the Koch Brothers. It is true that in defending Israel I’ve met with enough woolly thinking to make credible the charge that Leftism represents a degeneration of the mental faculties, but no hate or personal insult. But I’ve never felt it necessary to soft pedal defense of Israel.

    kishnevi (870883)

  133. @128, there’s nothing hypothetical about it. You do or you don’t.

    I went and grabbed the letter. I just wanted to make sure it was still in the safe. It is worth mucho denero. I’m good.

    It’s OK either way. If I didn’t have it alls it means I have to go back to work.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  134. Among the American street no doubt, but in the academic and political establishments, it’s something else again,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  135. DRJ, you are referring to this statement?
    At the same time, as much as “P*** Christ” offended me, I would start posting images of it in support of Serrano if he encountered the same kind of violent backlash that Vilks has encountered. At that point, my intent is not to offend, but to stand up for free speech. . . . When we pick and choose who has the right to free speech based on its content, then nobody has free speech.*

    I disagree with that. Partly because P*** Christ should offend anyone, of whatever religion (or even non religion), and reposting it is simply repeating the original offense.

    It would be enough to simply defend Serrano’s right to exhibit it. Same with with Hebdo and Vilks. There is nothing admirable about offending people for the sake of offending them.

    It’s rather like, in a truly free society, the fact that your neighbor doesn’t take care of his yard rather badly does not give you the right to call the HOA police on him.

    *edited to avoid any potential problems with the spam filter.

    kishnevi (870883)

  136. Using kishnevi logic, the two shooters taking a dirt nap were attempting to impose their religious beliefs on others.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  137. attempting to impose their religious beliefs on others.

    Isn’t that the whole point of jihadism?

    kishnevi (870883)

  138. the Dog Trainer doesn’t dissapoint,

    https://twitter.com/rsmccain/status/595263889970987011

    narciso (ee1f88)

  139. @128, there’s nothing hypothetical about it. You do or you don’t.
    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/4/2015 @ 10:37 am

    Steve, just FYI, there is no armed insurrection going on in defense of the First Amendment. So my hypothetical defense of such speech is just that – hypothetical. Maybe there is a real war going on where you live, but here it’s just words and theory. In any case, I’ll keep my guns clean just to make sure.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  140. At least the LAT put in on the front page.
    The Miami Herald site puts the story in a secondary section, and clicking the link just made this browser issue a malware warning instead of loading the link….
    Apparently the Herald thinks it is much more important that someone stole a marked police patrol care and crashed it in the Poert Tunnel.

    kishnevi (870883)

  141. Carlitos, it is more like an armed insurrection against the First Amendment, as the police in Garland can tell you.

    kishnevi (870883)

  142. kishnevi – Do you have any links with Geller specifically calling for the extirpation of all Muslims? I have not seen that before and would love to take a look.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  143. no kidding and it’s the Times gosnell girl (Wendy Davis) beat reporter

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article20156769.html

    narciso (ee1f88)

  144. Daley, no.
    But the Volkische Beobachter didn’t explicitly call for killing all Jews.
    [I recognize the Godwin here, but I think it is entirely on target in this instance.]

    kishnevi (870883)

  145. Narciso, I stopped subscribing to the Herald years ago. About the time they started charging more for the Sunday paper while at the same time taking out the TV Guide and coupons, the stuff I actually wanted from them. Now I never read them unless someone happens to leave a copy in the lunchroom at work.

    kishnevi (870883)

  146. for far less impertinence than Pamela’s National Soros Radio adjudged Juan Williams to be wholly unfit for employment

    and then they fired his ass

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  147. we are not embedding it because it does feature drawings of Muhammad

    [from Narciso’s link to NPR in comment 149]

    Well, that’s an even more vigorous defense of free speech than the one made by Ms. Callimachi!

    [insert satire icon here for benefit of Carlitos]

    kishnevi (870883)

  148. see you can’t make this up, that’s BBC quality groveling,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  149. DRJ (e80d46) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:20 am

    I wonder if the Garland PD cop used a variation of the Rhodesian Triple-Tap to overcome the armor:
    Two to center-mass to stop them, one to the head to save taxpayers the cost of a trial?

    askeptic (efcf22)

  150. “Daley, no.
    But the Volkische Beobachter didn’t explicitly call for killing all Jews.”

    kishnevi – Not even a good strawman argument. Fail.

    If you believe that is what Geller wants, you are entitled to your opinion. I have not seen her call for it, but again would be happy to see any reference provided. Otherwise, no sale.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  151. I’m trying to understand. As I see it, the MSM is saying the reason Islamic jihadists shot people in Garland, TX is because Pamela Geller was wearing too short of a skirt, or something like that.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  152. Yes, kishnevi, that’s what I was referring to. I think there are times we have to defend freedom by standing up for the people who may not be our first choice in associates, but who are better than the alternatives. If we wait until people who think just like us are there, we may be the only ones still standing.

    I’m no hero and, frankly, I hope I don’t have to go to Geller’s meetings or even take up arms in her defense. But I have to be willing to do that when she or people like her are under attack.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  153. q143. Carlitos, it is more like an armed insurrection against the First Amendment, as the police in Garland can tell you.
    kishnevi (870883) — 5/4/2015 @ 10:59 am

    Oh give me a f***ing break.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  154. NPR clears everything up:

    Geller denounced the project as “the ground zero mega-mosque.” On her blog she wrote:

    “What could be more insulting and humiliating than a monster mosque in the shadow of the World Trade Center buildings brought down by Islamic attack?

    “Worse still, the design is a mockery of the World Trade Center building design. Islamic jihad took down those buildings when they attacked, destroyed and murdered 3,000 people in an act of conquest and Islamic supremacism. What better way to mark your territory than to plant a giant mosque on the still-barren land of the World Trade Center? Sort of a giant victory lap. Any decent American, Muslim or otherwise, wouldn’t dream of such an insult. It’s a stab in eye of America. What’s wrong with these people? Have they no heart? No soul?”

    These are only a couple of Geller’s thought crimes listed in the NPR article linked by narciso in #149, but it gives you an idea of what a “hate crime” is now considered to be … by our “elite leaders” … Which is to say one must not speak the truth to power no matter what folly has taken hold of them. So Geller is now a non-person, and her message (and the muslim response to that message) is to be ignored.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this celebratory mosque will be considered by true believers as forever the property of muslims. A kind of beachhead won by force and cunning.

    The bottom line is that our taxes are being used to support the idea that we need to surrender to these savages. It is remarkable that the only thing the left has retained of our Christian heritage is the idea of turning the other cheek. But they get even that wrong, as most of them think the cheek in question is on the stern and below the belt.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  155. Similarly, I hope I don’t have to embrace Serrano’s exhibit. It would be hard for me to do, but I doubt I will have to because I don’t think Christians are going to attack Serrano or people like him solely because of their ideas. Nevertheless, it’s important that I be willing to stand up because it protects us all. If everyone stands up for words against fascism, it will protect us all.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  156. 158. …The bottom line is that our taxes are being used to support the idea that we need to surrender to these savages…

    bobathome (ef0d3a) — 5/4/2015 @ 11:52 am

    They call it jizhyah.

    Which is why some Muslims consider it more honorable to collect welfare.

    Or, as they think of it, tribute.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  157. p*****s Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist’s urine. The piece was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art’s “Awards in the Visual Arts” competition,[1] which was sponsored in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, a United States Government agency that offers support and funding for artistic projects, without controlling content.

    My problem wasn’t the “art” itself, though I didn’t like the photograph, my objection was our government funding.

    As opposed to the privately funded art show in Garland. I wonder if the killing of the 2 Islamic jihadists would ever be considered good by the MSM or our betters on the left.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  158. 158. …Nevertheless, it’s important that I be willing to stand up because it protects us all. If everyone stands up for words against fascism, it will protect us all.

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/4/2015 @ 11:52 am

    Children are yelling names at me.

    Because that’s what they learned in their rubber room asylum.

    Their perfessers tell them this will work.

    I got a K-Bar that says it won’t.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  159. I’m just glad they got these corksoakers.

    Colonel Haiku (39d859)

  160. No, I take it back. I think the bayonet that sez, “H3llZ No” was built by Utica Cutlery, 1942.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  161. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=260&v=N4jQhnXrWbg

    Seriously, if no one else is available for a FONOPS through the straight of Hormuz give me a call…

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  162. Kids, today.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  163. Farging iceholes…

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  164. Racist homophobic Islamophobes!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  165. Steve@157
    I was adapting Carlitos’s phrasing in comment 141 to the actual events.
    Two gunmen (insurrectionists) were trying to shut down a group of people exercising their First Amendment rights.
    So the gunmen were revolting against the 1A.

    Obviously yet one more time I confuse people.

    kishnevi (adea75)

  166. Free speech aside, why would anyone do something as provocative as put on The Book of Mormon?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  167. Free speech aside, why would anyone want to make a picture of Mary out of pornographic pictures and animal fæces?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  168. My question is should this contest be held again this year in a regular neighborhood.

    Absolutely. Again and again and again, until it becomes so commonplace that nobody bothers attending or commenting on it. Because we can’t let the terrorists win.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  169. My question is should this contest be held again this year in a regular neighborhood.

    May as well ask whether black kids should have tried attending white schools where they needed the National Guard to protect them, disrupting the school and the whole neighborhood.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  170. Neighbors of the two said they’d often “play” with animals.

    Colonel Haiku (39d859)

  171. All that said, Geller’s a nut. Wilders is all right, though.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  172. The city of New York just banned all “political” advertising from city buses because they lost a court decision and decided to “ban all political ads.”

    The MTA, not the city.

    They had a point, though. Geller’s latest ad amounts to a dare to antisemites to put their bullets where there mouths are. It could easily incite some nut to do so.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  173. It is instructive. In Carlitos statement he gave 3 reasons he believes that Pamela Geller is hateful.

    1. Blog posts that he read with no specific statements from those blog posts of hateful speech.

    2. Videos which he said that he would “try to find a few examples”.

    Do you really expect anyone to have saved examples to be trotted out on demand? Anyone who’s followed her for a good long while has seen these examples. If you haven’t, and you’re not prepared to take carlitos’s word, kishinevi’s, or mine, perhaps you should try it yourself. Read Atlas Shrugged regularly for several months, and see whether you don’t come away with the same opinion of her.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  174. It would be enough to simply defend Serrano’s right to exhibit it. Same with with Hebdo and Vilks. There is nothing admirable about offending people for the sake of offending them.

    But there is something admirable in caricaturing Mohammed, simply because he was in fact a very bad person, and we shouldn’t allow that to be forgotten. There really is a difference between Jesus and Mohammed.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  175. “Do you really expect anyone to have saved examples to be trotted out on demand? Anyone who’s followed her for a good long while has seen these examples. If you haven’t, and you’re not prepared to take carlitos’s word, kishinevi’s, or mine, perhaps you should try it yourself.”

    Milhouse – Have you ever heard or read Geller advocating for the extirpation of all Muslims?

    I disagree with you opinion as well as that of kishnevi and carlitos.

    Deal with it.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  176. i seem to remember this Pamela lady was markedly more calm and reasoned about the Dubai Ports Whirl deal than screechy pickled swizzle stick Michelle Malkin

    and you know what I appreciate that

    happyfeet (831175)

  177. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe this celebratory mosque will be considered by true believers as forever the property of muslims. A kind of beachhead won by force and cunning.

    You’re wrong. There is no “celebratory mosque”, and there were never plans for one. The plans announced were for a community center, which would, naturally, include a mosque on the premises. And no, the site would only belong to its current Moslem owners for as long as they didn’t sell it, and it wasn’t taken by eminent domain, just like any other real estate.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  178. victory mosque is no bueno

    it’s just tacky

    tacky tacky tacky

    happyfeet (831175)

  179. Milhouse – Have you ever heard or read Geller advocating for the extirpation of all Muslims?

    Not in so many words, but one can’t read Atlas Shrugged for very long without understanding that that is her intention. As kishinevi wrote, nobody ever heard or read Der Steurmer explicitly calling for what they ended up doing either, but there’s no doubt that it was on their minds.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  180. Oops, there’s a missing </i> there.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  181. “As kishinevi wrote, nobody ever heard or read Der Steurmer explicitly calling for what they ended up doing either, but there’s no doubt that it was on their minds.”

    Milhouse – I don’t see the parallel between remarks of a private citizen and a Nazi Party newspaper and I never reached the same conclusion as you and kishnevi from reading Geller’s blog.

    Your conclusion in in synch with the NY Times, free speech aside, there are some subjects about which we must temper our words and the truth lest we be called hateful.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  182. Do you really expect anyone to have saved examples to be trotted out on demand? Anyone who’s followed her for a good long while has seen these examples. If you haven’t, and you’re not prepared to take carlitos’s word, kishinevi’s, or mine, perhaps you should try it yourself. Read Atlas Shrugged regularly for several months, and see whether you don’t come away with the same opinion of her.

    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/4/2015 @ 4:56 pm

    Carlitos was the one to offer videos. He said she was hateful, I asked why. He gave the 3 reasons. I asked specifically what she said that made her hateful. Just one thing would have been fine. I don’t see why I’m responsible for proving that she is hateful.

    For example, I can say Hamas is hateful because they have said the Jews should be exterminated. It pretty easy.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  183. she’s sort of a kook, but i like Pamela way more better than these Southern Poverty Law Center jack-offs

    this is obvious to anyone willing to do the analysis

    happyfeet (831175)

  184. Plus thousands of Asian women want to date me.

    I have the SPAM to prove.

    Or, did. I just deleted it.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  185. she’s sort of a kook, but i like Pamela way more better than these Southern Poverty Law Center jack-offs

    Well, that’s hardly a contest. Talk about damning with faint praise. I like Bernie Sanders way better than SPLC, but I still wouldn’t p— on him if he were on fire.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  186. I’m not going to provide links because I’m lazy, but this image is a photo of the scene of the Garland shooting. After reading several reports, I believe this may be what happened:

    A police officer and a security guard were in the white police car parked sideways at the center top of the photo. They were parked there to block the entrance to the community center. The shooters drove up to the entrance — it’s the dark vehicle in the center — and exited their vehicle. They started shooting as the security guard and police officer got out of their car. The security guard may have been in the passenger seat, which would explain why he was shot in the leg.

    One report says the shooters were shooting from the far side of and behind their vehicle, and that’s where the bodies were located in the images. My rough estimate suggests the distance between the shooter’s vehicle and the police car is 30-35 feet, so the participants may have been 50 feet apart if they were shooting from behind their vehicles. If so, that’s good shooting by the officer.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  187. I never reached the same conclusion as you and kishnevi from reading Geller’s blog.

    If you actually read it for a long time and came to a different conclusion than we did, oh well. My words were directed to those who haven’t, and want instant research done for them. There were many examples of paranoid islamophobia, in the true sense; none of which, on its own, was enough to justify an accusation of would-be genocide, but the cumulative effect was the same.

    For just one example, though, check any of her rants against halal. If you’re familiar with the antisemitic rants against kashrut that used to do the rounds on the internet not so long ago (and probably still do in sewers I don’t frequent), you will immediately recognise not just the style, but even the specific details. The anti-halal pieces are simply the “Jew Tax” pieces with the application of s/{Jew,rabbi,kosher,halacha}/{Moslem,imam,halal,sharia}/g

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  188. “Islamophobia” is not a serious problem in our society; but it does exist. Just because the boy who cries wolf is usually lying doesn’t mean there aren’t any wolves. 95% of the “islamophobia” the usual suspects complain of is ridiculous nonsense; in my opinion Geller is in the 5%. She’s still 1000 times better than those who want to shut her up, though.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  189. “Geller’s latest ad amounts to a dare to antisemites to put their bullets where there mouths are. It could easily incite some nut to do so.” -Milhouse

    Not that it takes much to incite this particular brand of nut. The obvious solution is to pass a Constitutional Amendment to allow everyone the right to carry guns to defend themselves and others. Then a decision to “put their bullets where their mouths are” would be immediately judged by their peers and punishment delivered.

    Oh, but for a perfect world……

    Easy Target (d7a02c)

  190. “s/{Jew,rabbi,kosher,halacha}/{Moslem,imam,halal,sharia}/g” -Milhouse

    How refreshing to see examples of a vi substitution string used in conversation. Bonus points for geek speak. 😎

    Easy Target (d7a02c)

  191. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=260&v=N4jQhnXrWbg

    R-3350 Engine Startup After Engine Change

    When starting a big radial, you have three choices. Hope it catches, as this one did. That will put the fire out. Count on the ground safety guy with the fire bottle. Run.

    I only say that because I’ve been going over my notes. It appears things are going to get very basic.

    Free speech aside, why would anyone do something as provocative as hosting a “Muhammad drawing contest”?

    Oh yeah. Let’s put free speech aside.

    This.

    http://www.mercedestextiles.com/fire-fighting-equipment/wick%C2%AE-250-fire-pump—mercury-connection-%28new-coil%29-11738.aspx

    Looks similar to what we used to have.

    http://dcfpnavymil.org/Check%20Sheets/checksheets/PDF%20Check%20Sheets/P-100%20Pump.pdf

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  192. “Geller’s latest ad amounts to a dare to antisemites to put their bullets where there mouths are. It could easily incite some nut to do so.” -Milhouse

    I tried to find the latest Pamela Geller subway ad. Here’s what I found. The top ad could be taken badly, but each of the ads are true. So they want to kill people because of true statements?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/shocking-anti-islam-ad-campaign-okd-mta-article-1.1945174

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  193. You can go to AR15.com or whatever for your other apocalypse advice. Sears had a sale on toolboxes a while back, so I bought a couple on sale and then filled them up. I’ve got first aid kits that kick @$$. I only whip out the most comprehensive kit when I use the chainsaw. But I could probably perform surgery with the backpack kit.

    Also, thinking past your guns.

    http://www.thefirestore.com/

    http://www.wildlandwarehouse.com/

    Listening to that lady making the 9/11 call from Baltimore, because someone set fire to a neighboring building, set my mind to this. I want to be ready for my future.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  194. “If you actually read it for a long time and came to a different conclusion than we did, oh well. My words were directed to those who haven’t, and want instant research done for them.”

    Milhouse – I don’t believe there was anything unclear in my words. I said I disagree with you and kishnevi and carlitos about Geller. I believe she is anti-jihad and anti-sharia and believes extremist tenets of the religion have no place in a Democratic Republic. I will repeat again I have seen nothing indicating she wants all Muslims killed, but would be happy to take a look at anything you have showing otherwise. Absent that, I believe you are wildly exaggerating what she believes.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. We have enough food stored to last a couple of months. Well essentially to outlive those who don’t prepare.
    Not that I am a prepper it’s just that after Hurricane Sandy it was ridiculous to me that folks were whining on day 2 that they had no food or water. Day 2! I don’t want to have to rely on gubmint to survive. Also, even though we live in AZ we grow a lot of veggies, so we are all good. We use this system, which I highly recommend.
    http://squarefootgardening.org/

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  196. I’m with daley on this. Sure, she’s passionate, but why not?

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  197. http://www.nationalfirefighter.com/store/c/1398-Products.aspx

    Just doing my bit to get everyone ready for our dystopian future. It’s going to take more than a pistol.

    Not that the 1911 won’t be important. Or Glock. Whatever.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  198. Let’s just say I am all stocked up on the basics. Someone told me that Mormons are required to keep 2 years worth of supplies. Don’t know if it is true or not. Smart, though.

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  199. daley @198, I’ve noticed with Pam Geller that the language used against her gets more shrill as she refuses to change her rhetoric.

    Then, finally, the people against her start believing their own lies and doubling down on them.

    Essentially the longer she holds out the more hysterical her critics become. Because, damn it, she’s holding out. And that justifies more and more hysteria, as something must be wrong with her because she doesn’t fold.

    It worked on the two NYC hotel guys. What the h3ll is wrong with Pam Geller?

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  200. If you actually read it for a long time and came to a different conclusion than we did, oh well. My words were directed to those who haven’t, and want instant research done for them.

    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/4/2015 @ 6:36 pm

    You gave a reason for not liking Pamela Geller, Carlitos didn’t. I did not want “instant research” done for me. Asking Carlitos why he said Pamela Geller is a hater is not asking for “instant research”. Please stop me mischaracterizing the motives of my request.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  201. Alisyn Camerota interviews Geller on CNN. Guilt by association and she still can’t pin anything on Geller.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/05/on-the-terror-attack-in-texas.php

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  202. “Geller’s latest ad amounts to a dare to antisemites to put their bullets where there mouths are. It could easily incite some nut to do so.” -Milhouse

    I tried to find the latest Pamela Geller subway ad. Here’s what I found.

    No, those are not the ones that caused the MTA to decide not to run any political ads. This is the one. The reason the MTA didn’t want to run it should be obvious. I wouldn’t have wanted to run it either. The ad is aimed, of course, at an audience that takes it for granted that killing Jews is a bad thing; but not everyone who would see it does take that for granted. A wannabe jihadist could easily take it as a dare, a challenge, or even as a message from Allah.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  203. Because she doesn’t genuinely before the potent ates of palaver.

    narciso (27beb6)

  204. The obvious solution is to pass a Constitutional Amendment to allow everyone the right to carry guns to defend themselves and others.

    Yeah, what a concept.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  205. Milhouse and kishnevi,

    Does this website summarize what you object to about Geller?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  206. In all fairness, Milhouse, the Indonesian Muslims who beheaded Christian girls offered it up as a “Ramadan Present.”

    Just saying. Geller isn’t getting her ideas in a vacuum.

    And, you could lock her in a cage and bury her and wannabe jihadists will still happen.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  207. I hereby propose the 28th amendment to the US constitution: Each of the first ten amendments is hereby amended to add the following words at its end: “This amendment shall have force throughout every state and territory of the United States of America. No subdivision of any state or territory may exclude itself from this amendment. That means you, New York, Chicago, Washington, San Francisco. It especially means you, Madison, Berkeley, and Santa Monica.”

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  208. #181: Milhouse, I don’t regard your correction as sufficient:

    You’re wrong. There is no “celebratory mosque”, and there were never plans for one. The plans announced were for a community center, which would, naturally, include a mosque on the premises

    I said they were cunning. What is natural about a community center that includes a mosque? This is just a well camouflaged surrender.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  209. Do we really need to revisit the sundry players behind the go mosque, from the same people who thought the Arab spring would be great.

    narciso (27beb6)

  210. Does this website summarize what you object to about Geller?

    I don’t agree with everything on that page, especially the reference to the loathsome SPLC. I certainly don’t agree with the general tenor of that site, especially since it only took about two minutes’ poking around to yield this gem which refers to “the devastating massacre of the Gaza City neighborhood of Shujaiya” (links to “Middle East Monitor” and “Electronic Intifada”). I don’t even suppose that the article you linked was written in good faith. Nevertheless, it does make some perfectly valid points.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  211. wannabe jihadists will still happen.

    So why give them ideas?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  212. There’s so much category error in that lo one arch piece one scarcely knows where to start.

    narciso (27beb6)

  213. What is natural about a community center that includes a mosque?

    It’s as natural for a Moslem community center to include a mosque as it is for a Jewish one to include a shul, or a Catholic one to include a chapel.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  214. DRJ, half of that list is valid…numbers 1,2,5,7, and 8. Number 6 is half valid…I do not know of any Jewish institutions being built with foreign support. Usually it is the other way around, with American Jews supporting causes outside the US (for instance, Chabad’s efforts to help Jews made refugees or otherwise endangered by the war in Ukraine).
    The others I consider overwrought.

    kishnevi (adea75)

  215. 216. wannabe jihadists will still happen.

    So why give them ideas?

    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/4/2015 @ 8:35 pm

    Oh, call me crazy but just to toss out a thought.

    Islam.

    The reason they’re getting ideas isn’t because Pamela Geller can’t shut her pie hole. Every freakn’ Friday they’re getting an idea. If that is, they’re not cracking open a Quran on the days in between.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  216. Actually, she gave two an idea and now they are getting rogered by the barbed c*ck of Satan in perpetuity.

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  217. Khaybar, Khaybar, Ya Yahud! Jaish Muhammad Sawfa Ya’ud!

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  218. Surat At-Tawbah (The Repentance)9:29

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    Yeah, if only Pamela Geller would keep quiet.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  219. @221, the wicked girl. I’d like to buy her lunch.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  220. #221… I suspect that’s no day at the beach, Gazzer!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  221. So why give them ideas?

    Oh, call me crazy but just to toss out a thought.

    Islam.

    The reason they’re getting ideas isn’t because Pamela Geller can’t shut her pie hole. Every freakn’ Friday they’re getting an idea. If that is, they’re not cracking open a Quran on the days in between.

    Most imams are not actually preaching murder on Fridays. But take your typical Moslem kid raised in New York who’s torn between his basic humanity and his Moslem conscience. He feels called to jihad because that’s what he thinks Allah wants from him, but killing people doesn’t come naturally. Then he sees this ad, showing an example of a brave shahid who is doing his bit, and challenging him “killing Jews is his jihad, what’s yours?” Can you really discount the possibility that he’s going to take this as a message from Above? Or as a dare, a challenge to his devotion, his manhood, or both?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  222. Colonel, it might be on Fire Island.

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  223. Absolutely. I trust that DRJ and others would support a “draw Jesus in some urine” conference?

    Yes, Carlitos, but I have a sense your heart wouldn’t be in it quite as much if it were a matter of condemning a person for mocking Christ and Christianity. By contrast, I can say quite strongly I’ll be far more resentful of a person trashing Christ because, unlike Mohammed, Christianity’s founder wasn’t a ruthless, bloody, vengeful, diabolical leader.

    I find it interesting that various people (particularly in the Western World) tune in to that little liberal impulse in the back of their brain and flip these 2 reactions on their head. That’s why I think left-leaning biases have a tendency to make humans ass backwards.

    Mark (607f93)

  224. unlike Mohammed, Christianity’s founder wasn’t a ruthless, bloody, vengeful, diabolical leader.

    This is perfectly true.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  225. Vox does contortions:

    But this was not principally a free speech event; it was an anti-Muslim hate event. Pamela Geller is not principally a free speech advocate; her activism has rather focused on curbing the rights, including the speech rights, of Muslims in the United States.

    Dana (86e864)

  226. Milhouse @226, I somehow suspect the radicalization of the Lackawanna 6 pertains. And Pamela Geller had nothing to do with it.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  227. There’s a difference between an event that is protected by free speech and one that actually supports free speech. It is true that America’s broad free speech protections extend to anti-Muslim hate events; that does not make them “free speech events.” Elevating Geller and her cause to something they are not doesn’t just obfuscate this distinction; it legitimizes and spreads her group’s ideas, which are hateful, destructive, and dangerous.

    Dana (86e864)

  228. Yeah, but Ezra Klein?

    Gazzer (c1d25a)

  229. I will worry about Pam Geller when she pulls out an AK-47 and starts shooting up mosques. Otherwise, I am content to ignore her. Honestly, she is a cat toy for the left to exercise their clawless paws.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  230. Max Fisher.

    Dana (86e864)

  231. I’m with you, Ag80. And from what I saw on the interwebs tonight, she knows how to effectively handle herself. She frustrates them quite nicely.

    Dana (86e864)

  232. 234. I will worry about Pam Geller when she pulls out an AK-47 and starts shooting up mosques. Otherwise, I am content to ignore her. Honestly, she is a cat toy for the left to exercise their clawless paws.
    Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 5/4/2015 @ 9:30 pm

    You have a way with words.

    Listening to Pamela Geller does not cause violence. I’ve listened to her. I didn’t agree with her on a lot. But the phenomenon that has developed around her is remarkable. Geller is useful to put the left on display. At this point there is no atrocity they won’t falsely accuse her of. Because, SHUTUP ALREADY!

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  233. part of this is that the ban on having depictions of Muhumed is not an absolute among all the Islamic sects and that there are thousands of pieces of art work from within Islamic lands that depict a full faced Muhamed.
    Does anyone know how Muhamed was represented at this gathering? Was it as a thug or as a religious figure or both?

    seeRpea (81fcfe)

  234. I think Pam Geller is seeing what’s going on with creeping Sharia and antisemitic violence, especially in Europe, and is trying to alert the world and save the Jews before it is too late–something that very few stood to do once before, 75 years ago. I hope she is going about it in the best way and I am still not entirely convinced that she is. But I admire her courage and strength.

    elissa (3aef6a)

  235. seeRpea–are you familiar with using the search engines like Bing and google? Often answers to the questions you ask here are easily available to you that way. Here, for instance is a link to the picture that won the 10,000 dollar prize that was being offered in the “art” contest .

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/05/winner-announced-in-texas-draw-mohammad-contest-after-terror-attack/roze.

    elissa (3aef6a)

  236. re #240: #1 the link gives a page not found
    #2 i’m not asking what the winner was , but what the tone was.

    seeRpea (81fcfe)

  237. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K-2NTsMFhA

    Underway Replenishment

    It bugs me that they mix H-3s with their H-60s. But that’s prolly only me.

    Also I admire the way the helo pilot @2:50 skidded his way into a happy ending.

    Reminds me, though, of how you have to have natural wind on your side. A destroyer, and I guess an oiler, can make its own wind. But if that helo fell off the column of wind as the ship was steaming crosswise or against, bad things could have happened.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  238. cute but i don’t see any of the others.

    seeRpea (81fcfe)

  239. Battle of Rennel Island

    http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/WorldWarIISeaPacific/p/World-War-Ii-Battle-Of-Rennell-Island.htm

    …Though Giffen was charged with screening TG 68.2, he also had orders to rendezvous with destroyers from Tulagi for a sweep up “The Slot” north of Guadalcanal. Realizing that he would miss the rendezvous due to Suwannee and Chenango’s slow speed, he detached the two carriers along with two destroyers at 2:00 PM on January 29. Concerned about Japanese submarines, he formed his remaining ships for anti-submarine defense and increased speed to 24 knots. Steaming north, Giffen’s cruisers were in two parallel lines of three, while his six destroyers were deployed forward. While TF 18 was being followed by Japanese submarines, it was also being tracked by enemy aircraft…

    …Launching their torpedoes, the Japanese hit Chicago with two which brought the cruiser to a stop. A third struck Wichita but failed to explode. In the attack, two bombers, including Hagai’s, were shot down. Ceasing fire, TF 18 successfully hid in the darkness until the last Japanese aircraft left the area around 11:35 PM. Taking Chicago in tow, Louisville steamed south with the stricken warship…

    …Though aware of the enemy’s approach via reports from an Australian coastwatcher, Halsey directed TF 18’s cruisers to leave Chicago and make for Efate at 3:00 PM. Departing, Giffen left six destroyers to escort Chicago and Navajo. Forty minutes later, the CAP fighters downed a G4M that was scouting ahead. At 3:54 PM, Enterprise detected the approaching bombers on radar. Initially believing the Japanese were targeting the carrier, the CAP fighters engaged. As they did so, the 751 Air Group bombers turned south towards Chicago. Approaching the wounded cruiser, they quickly lost two aircraft before dropping their torpedoes. Turning away, they lost six additional bombers to American fire. Entering the water, one torpedo hit the destroyer USS La Vallette while four hit Chicago…

    They didn’t have time in Chicago to haul the flag down. My dad joined the coasties as 17 y.o. before WWII ended and sailed in Cherokee. Navajo’s sister. Which was shortly sunk, and so Cherokee became the namesake for the class of tugs.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  240. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/nrtc/14160_ch7.pdf

    ANCHORING, MOORING, AND TOWING

    Just saying.

    Upon completing this chapter, you should be able to do the following:
    1. Describe and identify anchors and their relatedappendages.
    2. Describe the standard methods for anchoring and mooring ships.
    3. Describe the procedures for rigging and unrigging for towing a ship and for being
    towed. State the basic rules for adjusting lines during the tow.
    4. Identify and describe the principal types of salvage.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  241. Milhouse,

    I looked at the image of the subway ad. (http://pamelageller.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Screen-Shot-2014-09-20-at-10.39.00-AM.png) I don’t see how that could incite people to violence. I believe the intended audience is non-Muslim. It shows a head shot of a masked jihadist. The text next to the headshot says:

    “Killing Jews is Worship that draws us close to Allah”
    -Hamas MTV

    That’s His Jihad. What’s yours?

    It tells the truth.

    Sorry I couldn’t put the link as a link. When I tap the link button on my iPad, mobile Safari crashes, every time.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  242. i don’t recall anyone claiming that the lyrics in that Hamas’ Al-Qassam Brigades video did not mean
    ‘Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to allah’ , so yeah it did tell the truth.
    Still, i’m glad it led to the NYC Transit Authority just doing away with all political ads. I’m pretty sure the Transit Authority where i live banned all political ads after Arabs bought ad space intended to condemn Israel.

    seeRpea (81fcfe)

  243. This post includes another of the drawings.
    http://lonestarparson.blogspot.com/2015/05/jihad-meet-texas.html
    Of course, cartoons featuring bearded hook nosed men have a long ancestry.

    kishnevi (9c4b9c)

  244. I believe the intended audience is non-Muslim.

    The intended audience is everyone who rides the MTA. Is there some magical coating that renders it invisible to Moslems? How is any Moslem supposed to read it, if not as a dare or a challenge, or even a call from Above, to do his part by killing Jews?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  245. i don’t recall anyone claiming that the lyrics in that Hamas’ Al-Qassam Brigades video did not mean ‘Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to allah’ , so yeah it did tell the truth.

    Who said it wasn’t telling the truth? What’s that got to do with anything? The MTA’s objection to the ad was that it amounts to daring Moslems (or anyone else who doesn’t start with the premise that killing Jews is wrong) to kill Jews.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  246. How is any Moslem supposed to read it, if not as a dare or a challenge, or even a call from Above, to do his part by killing Jews?

    and

    The MTA’s objection to the ad was that it amounts to daring Moslems (or anyone else who doesn’t start with the premise that killing Jews is wrong) to kill Jews.

    This assumes that the majority of Muslims who see the billboards on the buses are radicalized and believe this crap and would see it as incitement or a challenge. If a Muslim is rational and a person of faith who is not extremist, they may be offended but they are certainly not going to believe they should act on the challenge and kill Jews, or be moved to actual action.

    If I see Piss Christ, which is clearly a denigration of my savior and could easily be seen as a challenge or dare, I’m not going to act on that or feel compelled in any way to do so – and clearly millions of Christians who have seen it wouldn’t either.

    So it is very possible to read the ads and not be challenged or dared or believe it is a call from Above to do their part by killing Jews. The problem occurs well before seeing the ads – the problem is that for some Muslims they believe killing Jews is what their faith demands.

    What incites the irrational and crazed does not have the same effect on the rational and sound mind.

    Dana (86e864)

  247. The ad is educational. Plain and simple. An educated, informed electorate can be a real problem for progressives. Knowing something about the world, such voters are aware of the consequences of the folly of their “leaders”. Such ads are certainly NOT appropriate for NYC, nor Baltimore, nor D. C., nor Detroit, nor ten or fifteen other urban centers with populations that are largely unemployable due to failed school systems.

    An ad that I can still recall that ran on D. C. buses when I worked there had a picture of a farm laborers, bending over picking crops. The caption said “It can’t be worse!” Nicely dresses ladies who worked in government offices would often comment on how terrible these working conditions were. This was in the day of Chavez and his “organizing” of the California farm workers. So Metro buses are certainly capable of running purely political ads, they just have to conform to the needs of City Hall.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  248. Good comments, bobthome and Dana.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  249. Dana, I think that’s called “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. It’s why many in the MSM are blaming Pamela Geller for the shooting. It’s like telling a woman she was raped because she wore a short skirt. According to the left, Muslims don’t have rational thought so just about anything will set them off. Because they have such short fuses, it’s our fault if they do something bad and we are only foolish if we expect good behavior, because they have no control over themselves.

    I believe that we need to change our expectations and that there should be consequences for bad behavior.

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  250. they can’t let people make pictures of the lil prophet guy cause people might start worshiping the pictures

    apparently this is a known problem in the arab whirl

    i just learned about it this week

    happyfeet (831175)

  251. 249. …How is any Moslem supposed to read it, if not as a dare or a challenge, or even a call from Above, to do his part by killing Jews?
    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/5/2015 @ 5:37 am

    I wouldn’t worry about Pamela Geller.

    Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:216

    http://quran.com/2/216

    Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.

    Surat At-Tawbah (The Repentance) 9:111

    http://quran.com/9/111

    Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  252. The MTA’s objection to the ad was that it amounts to daring Moslems (or anyone else who doesn’t start with the premise that killing Jews is wrong) to kill Jews.

    This assumes that the majority of Muslims who see the billboards on the buses are radicalized and believe this crap and would see it as incitement or a challenge.

    It assumes nothing about the majority. It makes no difference whether those Moslems who believe Allah want them to kill Jews, or who are open to such a message, are a majority or a minority; all that matters is that they exist, and ride the MTA. The MTA doesn’t want to show them an ad that exhorts them to kill Jews.

    If I see Piss Christ, which is clearly a denigration of my savior and could easily be seen as a challenge or dare,

    It is certainly a denigration, an insult, but it cannot be seen as a challenge or a dare to act. It doesn’t say anything, and it certainly doesn’t tell you to kill anyone. The ad we are discussing does exactly that. It speaks directly to the Moslem and asks him “what is your jihad”, having just shown him an example of someone whose jihad is killing Jews.

    So it is very possible to read the ads and not be challenged or dared or believe it is a call from Above to do their part by killing Jews.

    I’m sure it is possible, especially if you don’t believe in jihad in the first place. But how do you expect a Moslem, who by definition is called to jihad, to understand it?

    Put it this way, if ISIS were to place this ad, would they change even one word?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  253. So Metro buses are certainly capable of running purely political ads

    Of coures they’re capable of that. Who suggested they weren’t? All a bus has to do to run an ad is to ave a large flat surface! What we are discussing is the NYMTA’s decision to stop running political ads, so that it would not be compelled by law to run an ad that it feared would be read as a jihadist call to kill Jews. That the ad was in fact placed by Pam Geller is just ironic.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  254. It’s like telling a woman she was raped because she wore a short skirt.

    No, Tanny, it’s not like that at all. The MTA is not afraid that this ad will enrage Moslems, it’s afraid it will inspire them. It’s the difference between inciting violence and provoking it. Incitement is illegal, provocation isn’t. If you want a rape analogy, the woman in it is not wearing a short skirt, she’s holding a placard that says “A good Moslem would rape me”. She means it ironically, but that’s not how every Moslem will understand it.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  255. Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:216
    Surat At-Tawbah (The Repentance) 9:111

    Are those being posted in subway cars and on buses? Is the MTA being compelled to post them?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  256. Milhouse has a point. Thirteen centuries of dealing with muslim savages have demonstrated that in countries where they rule, life is miserable, short, and ugly. Changes of government were usually accomplished by violence, and the population was not friendly to those of other faiths, and especially unfriendly to those of no faith. Indeed, they were the suppliers of slaves to the Americas. It would certainly be a good idea to avoid inflaming their passions when visiting such a muslim country. And few would visit these lands today had petroleum not been discovered (by western geologists) in muslim lands, and had the Suez Canal not been built. The inhabitants of these lands would still be eating grasshoppers and slaughtering each other, but no one else would care. Their significance in today’s world is a geographical accident.

    Given these truths, one must wonder about the wisdom of allowing large numbers of them to immigrate to this country. Particularly if we are going to allow them to set up areas of self-rule where our traditions of human rights are abandoned. How can the “community center” that Milhouse mentioned be a functional facility for non-muslims with the need for dress codes, sexual discrimination, and of course the incessant broadcasts of the calls to prayer.

    Geller is simply demonstrating the underlying conflict that must exist between free- and muslim societies. It should be regarded as a much needed education for us all.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  257. 260. … Are those being posted in subway cars and on buses? Is the MTA being compelled to post them?
    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/5/2015 @ 8:36 am

    Oh. Well then. As long as we’re not putting ads on trains or buses no Muslim will ever be inspired to commit violence.

    Quick. Somebody tell those 13 people from Fort Hood they’re not dead, because Nidal Malik Hassan didn’t read something on a bus.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  258. 261. …It should be regarded as a much needed education for us all.
    bobathome (ef0d3a) — 5/5/2015 @ 8:43 am

    Indeed. And while Milhouse is rambling on about one effect these ads could have, he’s ignoring other more positive possible effects.

    One of which is that many Muslims, who are far better people than their prophet and live far better lives than their religion commands, are truly shocked when they find out what is actually in their sacred texts.

    For instance those surahs I linked to @256. Many Muslims have never read them. A lot of Muslims have never read their own Hadith literature.

    So, one of the possibilities is that Muslims might see those ads and consider it a dare to do violence. The other is they’ll consider it another sort of dare; get angry and say, “My religion is a religion of peace. It doesn’t teach that!”

    Then they’ll look into their books and realize, oh wait. It does.

    A lot of Muslims apostatize as a result. Because they really only have two choices at that point. Live up to the demands of their religion (that’s what happened to the Lackawana 6, when a devout Muslim wormed his way into their group and joined them for basketball and pizza and convinced them they were going to h3ll if they didn’t straighten up and fly right and wage jihad). Or, abandon it.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  259. Oh. Well then. As long as we’re not putting ads on trains or buses no Muslim will ever be inspired to commit violence.

    What are you on? Who ever suggested that? And how is that a reason to run an ad telling them to kill Jews?

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  260. [A]s I argue in Islam and Free Speech, it will not do to blame the messenger for the violence. The shooting last night was not caused by the free-speech event any more than the Charlie Hebdo murders were caused by derogatory caricatures, or the rioting after a Danish newspaper’s publication of anti-Islam cartoons was caused by the newspaper. The violence is caused by Islamic supremacist ideology and its law that incites Muslims to kill those they judge to have disparaged Islam. …

    The threat to liberty in this instance is sharia blasphemy law. A bloc of Muslim-majority countries, with the assistance of the Obama administration (led by the U.S. State Department, particularly under Hillary Clinton), is trying to use international law to impose Islam’s repressive law to make it illegal to subject Islam to negative criticism. No sensible person favors obnoxious expression or gratuitous insult. But as I contend in the pamphlet, there is a big difference between saying “I object to this illustration of insensitivity and bad taste” and saying “I believe that what repulses me should be against the law.” …
    It would be easy, in our preening gentility, to look down our noses at a Mohammed cartoon contest. But we’d better understand the scope of the threat the contest was meant to raise our attention to — a threat triggered by ideology, not cartoons. There is in our midst an Islamist movement that wants to suppress not only insults to Islam but all critical examination of Islam. That movement is delighted to leverage the atmosphere of intimidation created by violent jihadists, and it counts the current United States government among its allies.

    – Andrew McCarthy

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417871/islam-and-free-speech-missing-point-garland-andrew-c-mccarthy?target=author&tid=900151

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  261. How can the “community center” that Milhouse mentioned be a functional facility for non-muslims with the need for dress codes, sexual discrimination, and of course the incessant broadcasts of the calls to prayer.

    It would be a functional facility for anyone who cohse to visit it. Just like the Jewish community centers on which it was to be patterned.

    Of course the question is moot, because last I heard the whole thing turned out to be a fundraising scam, and the promoter never intended to build it in the first place. Geller et al played right into his hands, giving him both a cause for fundraising among rich Moslems overseas, and a reason to cancel the project after he’d raised the money.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  262. So, one of the possibilities is that Muslims might see those ads and consider it a dare to do violence.

    And the MTA didn’t want to be responsible for that.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  263. Geller’s success is to be applauded. And I have used a Jewish Community Center for secular purposes, and it was indistinguishable from the city’s community center for all practical purposes. Men and women could attend meetings without feeling uncomfortable, and there was no fear of violence. I’d welcome more.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  264. If you want to bring these surahs to the attention of decent Moslems, so that they will understand what sort of religion Islam really is, why not have the ad say so explicitly?

    Islam Says: “Kill Jews”
    [appropriate quote]
    Is This a Religion of Peace?
    Is This a Religion Worth Following?
    See [web site] for the truth about Islam.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  265. 267.

    So, one of the possibilities is that Muslims might see those ads and consider it a dare to do violence.

    And the MTA didn’t want to be responsible for that.
    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/5/2015 @ 10:14 am

    The MTA wouldn’t be responsible for that.

    The MTA needs to get over its damned self.

    By the way, when are the services for the ISIS wannabe who was outgunned at a Texas art gallery?

    I want to send a bacon-wrapped ham to the wake.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  266. Garland Texas would like to send a message to Copenhagen Denmark.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/copenhagen-shootings/fatal-copenhagen-shooting-lars-vilks-was-terrorist-attack-prime-minister-n306316

    f*** your weepy candlelight vigils. Grow a set.

    We’ll show you how to run a Muhammad cartoon contest.

    It’ll be after the machine gun shoot and the bullriding. And just before the chili cook off. Bring plenty of Carslberg and a bikini team, Denmark.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  267. 269. If you want to bring these surahs to the attention of decent Moslems, so that they will understand what sort of religion Islam really is, why not have the ad say so explicitly?

    Islam Says: “Kill Jews”
    [appropriate quote]
    Is This a Religion of Peace?
    Is This a Religion Worth Following?
    See [web site] for the truth about Islam.
    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/5/2015 @ 10:27 am

    I’d say the ad doesn’t necessarily have to have only one specific purpose. Overall, running from the truth does more harm than good.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  268. running from truth very very bad

    do much harm

    happyfeet (831175)

  269. https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog

    David Burge @iowahawkblog · 5h 5 hours ago

    LATimes describes wannabe mass murder: “pleasant kid” “gregarious and personable” “seemed harmless”. Plus legal analysis from Iran. Really.

    David Burge @iowahawkblog · 6h 6 hours ago

    .@latimes “small town in north-central TX”: Garland is a mega suburb of DFW, pop. 227,000. And that’s the most accurate thing in your piece.

    David Burge @iowahawkblog · 6h 6 hours ago

    David Burge retweeted Los Angeles Times

    America is afflicted with the world’s worst journalism, Exhibit A

    David Burge added,
    Los Angeles Times @latimes
    Texas attack refocuses attention on the fine line between free speech and hate speech: http://lat.ms/1K8Nm6Z

    I’m not a huge fan of profanity. I figure I should honor the investment my parents made in me and employ an actual vocabulary.

    But there are times when nothing else will do. Like telling some Oberlin college grad pretending to be concerned about giving offense because she finally figured out that while you can put a crucifix in a jar of urine or write a play called The Book of Mormon may be “edgy” drawing a Muhammand cartoon that, yeah, free speech includes me telling her exactly what she can do with her ****ing head.

    Aww. It’s amazing how sensitive the libs are to the beliefs of others when the others start offing them.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  270. …telling her exactly what she can do with her ****ing head…

    And by “her” and “she” I mean Ezra Klein and Jonathon Chait.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  271. Just the thing for the next Muhammad cartoon fest/BBQ contest/rattlesnake hunt.

    http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=14858&osCsid=ckou52ca1mqhn135ebi1o3ld95

    18508 FULL SCALE REPLICA MODEL 1874 GATLING GUN $45,000.00

    Bargain, I’d say.

    Face it dudes. You can’t handle the Bugatti Veyron anyway.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-45s1zScPUY

    Two oil changes you can avoid will pay for the gatling gun.

    Which you’ll need because.

    Islam.

    MTA Advertisements.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  272. The organizers of this past Easter’s gay hunky Jesus contests in Portland and San Francisco agree with Milhouse that some things are too provocative and incitement to be thought in public.

    Mostly when those things lead to gay hunky Jesus contestants and organizers getting thrown off buildings or hung from cranes or shot at work.

    Hey, let’s all make fun of the Mormons!

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  273. …provocative and incitement…

    Inciteful!

    I hate autocorrect.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  274. http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=356551

    Over at AOShq they’re coming around to my position. Which shows good sense.

    The Idiocy Of “Sure People Have A Right To Speech But…..”

    ….Spare me the throat clearing. The quality of the person speaking and the content of their speech isn’t at issue. In fact they are entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It’s the right to speak and our willingness as a society to stand for the principle that matters.

    The reality is I’m not standing for or with Pam Geller, the KKK or anyone else I may disagree with. I’m standing for myself. Someday each of us may find ourselves on the “wrong” side of “all right thinking people” and unless we draw a firm and bright line all the time, we should not expect it to protect us when we most need it.

    On a lot of things. But I’ll stick to this one for the moment.

    http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=356555

    Megyn Kelly, Shooting Down Bill O’Reilly’s Cowardly Stance on the Garland Shooting: “Should We Get Rid of All the Jews, Too?”

    … I knock Megyn Kelly for being part of the smug Upper Middle Class Consensus, which is essentially a center-left worldview, even among alleged conservatives, but she’s also, unlike Bill O’Reilly, a smart and cutting thinker who is more than capable of thinking in terms of abstraction and cool reasoning, and here she takes heated exception to Bill O’Reily’s cowardly carping about Ms. Gellar and how he wouldn’t have made the point in quite that way.

    Oh? We’re criticizing Ms. Gellar, a woman who was just the subject of a jihadi assassination attempt and who may well be a marked woman for the rest of her life, on niggling matters of tone and style?

    And we need to do this now? We need to trot out the smug and absolutely unexamined, absolutely thoughtless vanities of Upper Middle Class Respectability and attack Ms. Gellar for not doing it in quite the way we would have, even as, in all likelihood, she scrambles to find long-term security to protect her life?

    For drawing a cartoon?

    This has been stewing in me since yesterday. It’s not just that the left is questioning Ms. Gellar in this; that much I expected.

    It’s that so much of the right is rushing to join them, and thereby Signal that they have Value per the norms established by the leftist politico-media consensus…

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  275. Absolutely. I trust that DRJ and others would support a “draw Jesus in some urine” conference?

    Yes, Carlitos, but I have a sense your heart wouldn’t be in it quite as much if it were a matter of condemning a person for mocking Christ and Christianity. By contrast, I can say quite strongly I’ll be far more resentful of a person trashing Christ because, unlike Mohammed, Christianity’s founder wasn’t a ruthless, bloody, vengeful, diabolical leader.

    I find it interesting that various people (particularly in the Western World) tune in to that little liberal impulse in the back of their brain and flip these 2 reactions on their head. That’s why I think left-leaning biases have a tendency to make humans ass backwards.

    Mark (607f93) — 5/4/2015 @ 9:08 pm

    I’m not sure that I understand your point. Personally, I believe that Jesus was a composite figure drawn from a handful of doomsday preachers in what is now Israel. So, he wouldn’t have been a ruthless, bloody, vengeful, diabolical leader, or even a real person. More like a generic sayer of things that Confucius and others had said.

    I’m not sure what you mean about the brain flip reactions; can you please elaborate?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  276. carlitos, are you aware that there are more sources that confirm Jesus’ existence than document Emperor Tiberius?

    I’m not trying to convert you or anything. I’m pointing out that if we don’t know Jesus was a real human being, we can’t know anything about that period in history.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  277. Yes Steve57, you can please spare me the apologetics. You’d be wasting your time.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  278. Of course, I don’t believe Jesus was just a human being.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0O4bHuQmX8

    The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars Gary Habermas at UCSB

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  279. Don’t watch the video then. I didn’t see your @282 when I made my last comment.

    But it’s pretty well established that there was a Jesus of Nazareth. I don’t know of any scholars, atheist, agnostic, or Christian, who disputes that anymore.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  280. Bethlehem, Nazareth.

    Tomayto, Tomahto.

    Seriously, you’re wasting you’re time here.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  281. We may never know who the officer in Garland is, and I hope for his sake they don’t identify him, but kudos to him.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  282. you know who else was a composite figure? obama’s girlfriend in his book about his drunk-ass daddy

    happyfeet (831175)

  283. That apologetics video is awful. I made it through 8 minutes. If that’s your best example, seriously, your argument sucks.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  284. carlitos,

    Why do you mock that comment? You may not care about Christianity but Steve57 is right when he says Jesus of Nazareth. That’s where his family lived. Bethlehem was Jesus’ birthplace but not his home.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  285. then he smiled at me pa rum pum pum pum

    me and my drum!

    this happened in bethlehem

    i get confuzzzled about the year

    happyfeet (831175)

  286. *confuzzled* i mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  287. It’s telling that you’re saying I’m wasting my time.

    I’m pointing out that if we know anything about the first century AD we know there was a Jesus.

    I’m not trying to convince you who he was. Whether he said he was who he said he was. Just the fact he lived and the Roman authorities executed him. That we can know this with as much certainty as we can know who was the Roman governor, who was Emperor, which legions were stationed in Judea, Syria and Egypt.

    If I were talking about Brasidas the Liberator I wouldn’t be getting this reaction. But dealing with Jesus just as a historical figure touches your third rail.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  288. 288. That apologetics video is awful. I made it through 8 minutes. If that’s your best example, seriously, your argument sucks.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/5/2015 @ 12:19 pm

    It’s not actually an apologetics video. Guess you missed that. And no it’s not my best example, it was just handy. It was just what I came up with within 10 minutes. It’s a starting point.

    If you slog through for more than 8 minutes Habermas raises some points that, if you’re interested, you can check out on your own.

    I never take anything I see in an internet video on its face. No matter the quality of the video.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  289. carlitos,

    Why do you mock that comment? You may not care about Christianity but Steve57 is right when he says Jesus of Nazareth. That’s where his family lived. Bethlehem was Jesus’ birthplace but not his home.

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/5/2015 @ 12:19 pm

    DRJ – I mock because the pretext is ridiculous. A census that never happened, a fictional trip to Egypt. Come on. We might as well argue about the historicity of the Lord of the Rings.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  290. I’m pointing out that if we know anything about the first century AD we know there was a Jesus.
    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/5/2015 @ 12:26 pm

    Complete bullsh1t. How in the hell could you know this?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  291. Barack Obama has always looked more like Malcolm X than he ever did Frank Marshall Davis. It’s enough of a resemblance to get him booked on the Maury Povich Show.

    ropelight (973b92)

  292. Habermas defines what he means by authoritative when he talks about Paul.

    Not always correct, but in a position to know. We can actually confirm a lot of what he writes in his letters using normal historical methods. By extension we can do the same with the Gospels.

    I think the “ethicist” Peter Singer is wrong 9,999 times. But the ten thousandth time he may just actually stumble across a truth.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  293. 295.

    I’m pointing out that if we know anything about the first century AD we know there was a Jesus.
    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/5/2015 @ 12:26 pm

    Complete bullsh1t. How in the hell could you know this?
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/5/2015 @ 12:36 pm

    The same way I know there was an Alcibiades.

    If I were talking about my belief that there was actually a Veringetorix, would you be responding this way?

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  294. Veringetorix

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  295. Vercingetorix

    Some of the keys on my keyboard don’t work so well. But I do know how to spell.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  296. http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=51&bible_chapter=23

    If I were to say certain things about this passage, which provides valuable historical clues:

    16 But the son of Paul’s sister heard of the ambush they were laying and made his way into the fortress and told Paul,

    17 who called one of the centurions and said, ‘Take this young man to the tribune; he has something to tell him.’

    The centurions belonged to the 3rd Gallica. The tribune was Claudius Lysais.

    22 The tribune let the young man go with this order, ‘Tell no one that you have given me this information.’

    23 Then he summoned two of the centurions and said, ‘Get two hundred soldiers ready to leave for Caesarea by the third hour of the night with seventy cavalry and two hundred auxiliaries;

    24 provide horses for Paul, and deliver him unharmed to Felix the governor.’

    25 He also wrote a letter in these terms:

    26 ‘Claudius Lysias to his Excellency the governor Felix, greetings.

    27 This man had been seized by the Jews and would have been murdered by them; but I came on the scene with my troops and got him away, having discovered that he was a Roman citizen.

    28 Wanting to find out what charge they were making against him, I brought him before their Sanhedrin.

    29 I found that the accusation concerned disputed points of their Law, but that there was no charge deserving death or imprisonment.

    30 Acting on information that there was a conspiracy against the man, I hasten to send him to you, and have notified his accusers that they must state their case against him in your presence.’

    31 The soldiers carried out their orders; they took Paul and escorted him by night to Antipatris.

    32 Next day they left the mounted escort to go on with him and returned to the fortress.

    33 On arriving at Caesarea the escort delivered the letter to the governor and handed Paul over to him.

    34 When he had read it, he asked Paul what province he came from. Learning that he was from Cilicia he said,

    35 ‘I will hear your case as soon as your accusers are here too.’ Then he ordered him to be held in Herod’s praetorium.

    The auxiliaries were German spearmen.

    Would you have a problem with that, carlitos? I can back it up.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  297. Beyond the Bible: Did Jesus exist?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  298. Or maybe you are saying there is a Jesus but we don’t know the exact circumstances of his birth?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  299. of all the characters in the Bible Jesus is probably the number one most likely one to be based on a real person followed by Noah, Moses, Speed Racer, The Mad Hatter, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, Will and Holly Marshall, Don Draper and the Babadook

    happyfeet (831175)

  300. DRJ, what I am saying, at least, is that if the evidence is reliable enough for other purposes then it’s reliable enough to prove Jesus lived.

    If someone is insistent on dismissing the evidence because he’s committed to the idea that Jesus could not have possibly existed, then the evidence is not good for anything.

    As an aside, most Roman cavalry were auxiliaries, just like those spearmen. The Romans were great heavy infantry, but not the best horsemen. A lot of Romans did ride, but they couldn’t compare to the steppe people who grew up on horseback.

    But I think the cavalrymen in mentioned in the book of Acts were Equites Legionis. Every legion had a squadron of 120 horsemen, regular legionaries, who scouted and rode dispatch, etc. Auxiliary Ala, or wings, consisted of units generally speaking of 500 (Quingenaria) or a thousand (Milliaria) men. I don’t think there’s any archeological or documentary evidence there was such a unit in Jerusalem at the time.

    And that evidence lasts a long time. You can go to Masada and see the physical traces of the siege.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  301. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_X_Equestris

    …Caesar mounted legionaries from the Tenth on horses as a ruse in a parley with the German King Ariovistus in 58 BC[dubious – discuss] because he did not trust his Gallic cavalry auxiliaries from the Aedui tribe. Legio X was famous in its day[1] and throughout history, because of its portrayal in Caesar’s Commentaries and the prominent role the Tenth played in his Gallic campaigns.[2] Its soldiers were discharged in 45 BC. Its remnants were reconstituted, fought for Mark Antony and Octavian, disbanded, and later merged into X Gemina…

    A lot of nonsense has been written about Ceasar’s 10th. It never went by the name Equestris. It did go by the name Fretensis, which means “of the strait.” And that has to do with Mark Antony breaking out of Brindisi, not with the scrap over Sicily.

    And the X Gemina was a different legion.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  302. agree with Milhouse that some things are too provocative and inciteful [corrected per the next comment] to be thought in public.

    Now you’re just lying. Not mistaken, because you know very well the difference between provocation and incitement, and you’ve read and responded to enough of my comments on this thread that you couldn’t possibly honestly believe that what you wrote there is true.

    Some things are too inciteful to be spoken in public; that’s why incitement is a crime, while provocation is not. But even where incitement is not a crime, because it’s too distant from the act it’s likely to incite, it’s still a bad idea. And conflating it with provocation is a cheap gimmick typical of the other side, Steve; you should be ashamed to be using it. The Mohammed cartoon show and Charlie Hebdo are provocative, but not inciteful. So’s Piss Christ and The Book of Mormon. The problem with the ad the MTA didn’t want to run is not that it’s provocative, but that it might be inciteful.

    Once again, consider the fact that ISIS could have run the exact same ad, without changing a word.

    Milhouse (bdebad)

  303. OK, Milhouse, thanks for the course correction.

    Some things are too inciteful to be thought in public.

    But this MTA ad isn’t among them. And I don’t see why I should be ashamed for pointing that out.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  304. 307. …Once again, consider the fact that ISIS could have run the exact same ad, without changing a word.
    Milhouse (bdebad) — 5/5/2015 @ 2:01 pm

    I have considered it. The more I consider it, the more I’m convinced the ad must be run.

    http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/40

    (2) Chapter: The ruling regarding one who reviles the prophet (pbuh)

    Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

    A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (ﷺ) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (ﷺ) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (ﷺ) was informed about it.

    He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

    He sat before the Prophet (ﷺ) and said: Messenger of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

    Thereupon the Prophet (ﷺ) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

    Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4361
    In-book reference : Book 40, Hadith 11
    English translation : Book 39, Hadith 4348

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  305. “The intended audience is everyone who rides the MTA. Is there some magical coating that renders it invisible to Moslems? How is any Moslem supposed to read it, if not as a dare or a challenge, or even a call from Above, to do his part by killing Jews?”

    Milhouse – Your hysteria is getting the better of you. I agree with Tanny that the target for the ad is non-Muslims. Specifically the progressive left more sympathetic to Hamas and Hezbollah than Israel.

    Nobody claimed no Muslims would see it, that’s a straw man of your own creation. So what if they do? Your mind reading skills tell you it amounts to incitement. Fine. I think there’s a big shame element built into Geller’s ads that works just as easily.

    If you are that worried about Muslims in this country going postal at the drop of a cartoon or advertisement do you believe there is an issue with Islam itself or is it just your thinking that is bizarre. If the former, we must have a big problem on our hands.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  306. it’s odd, isn’t it, their creed is supposed to be preeminent, but we aren’t supposed to know what it entails, Mohammed is Seif (Sword) and Prophet (Sharif) yet he is supposed to be voldemort, invisible to man’s gaze,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  307. “The problem with the ad the MTA didn’t want to run is not that it’s provocative, but that it might be inciteful.”

    Milhouse – After the MTA ran ads in favor of ending U.S. military support of Israel, Geller tried to run her “Civilized Man versus Savages” ads. The MTA turned her down because it claimed they did not meet their standards for not demeaning groups of people. A copy of their letter is at the link:

    http://pamelageller.com/2011/09/mta-bans-pro-israel-ads-runs-anti-israel-ads-1.html/

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  308. Pamela Geller can just go on being Pamela Geller

    i don’t think she really deserves to be elevated to some kind of freedom fighting superhero just cause a couple rambunctious terror monkeys took a shot or two in her general direction

    she still the same old Pam

    happyfeet (831175)

  309. Or maybe you are saying there is a Jesus but we don’t know the exact circumstances of his birth?

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/5/2015 @ 1:26 pm

    Neither you nor I have no idea about the alleged person or his birth, no. And we won’t find convincing evidence at apologist sites like “catholic.org” or “biblearcheology.com”

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  310. shirley you can’t be serious, denying what has been evident for 2,000 years, efforts chronicled by the likes of Tacitus and Josephus,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  311. And we won’t find convincing evidence at apologist sites like “catholic.org” or “biblearcheology.com”

    Did you read the link DRJ provided? It quotes historical sources that have nothing to do with the Catholic church. You’re guilty of the Genetic Fallacy here.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  312. shirley you can’t be serious, denying what has been evident for 2,000 years, efforts chronicled by the likes of Tacitus and Josephus,

    narciso (ee1f88) — 5/5/2015 @ 3:31 pm

    Not even the ‘catholic encyclopedia’ agrees with you.

    Attempts have been made to refute the objections brought against this passage both for internal and external reasons, but the difficulty has not been definitively settled.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  313. 314. …And we won’t find convincing evidence at apologist sites like “catholic.org” or “biblearcheology.com”
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/5/2015 @ 3:27 pm

    Josephus was pretty pro-Flavian. So because he kind of sucked up to Vespasian and Titus absolutely nothing he wrote can be true? As a matter of fact, everything he wrote must not be true?

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  314. Understandably, I might ad. Vespasian didn’t kill him after Jotapata.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  315. Free speech aside, people in the U.S. must adjust their thinking and words to redefine what constitutes blasphemy and incitement in order to accommodate the sensibilities of members of the mostly peaceful rapey medieval death cult of Islam.

    Milhouse and the Appeasement Causcus

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  316. I would like Zaphod, or any of his apologists, cite some of those wonderful non abrogated Koran verses of love and understanding, but as with his misinterpreting Cain’s dodge for his major domestic initiative, it would likely be painfully embarassing,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  317. Free speech aside, people in the U.S. must adjust…

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/5/2015 @ 3:52 pm

    I’m voting for the first candidate who can defend the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment. Why we’re better of because of them.

    Ted Cruz could. I think Rand Paul could. Lindsey Graham sucks in this regard.

    The Democrats are hopeless. Hillary!, if you recall, took out ads to apologize for the embarrassment of the First Amendment after Benghazi.

    Where do I send my bacon-wrapped ham?

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  318. Ok. Lost the recipe. This will have to do.

    http://allrecipes.com/recipe/bacon-wrapped-sausage/

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  319. Steve57 – I’m done with work and watching the rest of the video that you linked. I’m really unimpressed so far. Saying that “5 or 6” of the Pauline epistles (out of a claimed 13) were written by St. Paul isn’t really convincing. It’s standard apologetics. I can’t believe that a smart person like you finds this impressive. He’s quoting Bart Ehrman, seriously?

    Holy crap, he’s reciting the tropes about Alexander the Great. I see that he’s a professor at Liberty “University?”

    The entire video is a complete, utter, load of bullsh1t. Is it your interpretation of the bible that “lying for Jesus” is a noble endeavor?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  320. or Jugurtha, although Sallust’s accounts are likely somewhat biased toward the family line of Marius, that culminated in Caesar,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  321. Carlitos, if the entirety of my evidence was “Gary Habermas says so in this video” I would think you have a point.

    But he says things that can be verified independently. That’s really my point.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  322. Steve57, if you don’t believe that this ridiculous video is your best evidence, then please link your best evidence here. I’m actually laughing out loud at the nonsense this guy is dropping halfway through the video.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  323. yes, what would the Dean of Kings college know about, stick with one of Notre Dame’s bright lights, who soft pedals the era of christian martyrdom (I’m not making this up)

    narciso (ee1f88)

  324. Holy Crap, 35 minutes in, this Habernas idiot is doing numerology, a la Louis Farrakhan.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  325. You mean outside of Tacitus, Josephus and Pliny? No, got nothing.

    http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Reliability-Gospels-Craig-Blomberg/dp/0830828079

    Please cite some source that I can’t dismiss out of hand as “ridiculous” to prove Caesar Augustus existed.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  326. that is Candida Moss, with that brand of scholarship, I’ve mentioned Tom Holland’s masterful survey of all three religions, the BBC series, adapted from his work, irritated the ummah even more than the ‘Innocence of Muslims’

    narciso (ee1f88)

  327. Steve57, If the ridiculous video by the ridiculous baptist crazy guy isn’t your best evidence, could you kindly link your best evidence here? I promise to watch it in full.

    thx

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  328. 332. Holy Crap, 35 minutes in, this Habernas idiot is doing numerology, a la Louis Farrakhan.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/5/2015 @ 4:25 pm

    It’s called a chronology. It’s not numerology.

    You know, anybody can watch the video. Habermas is looking at the evidence in Paul’s epistles and placing him at certain places at certain times.

    The fact you have to lie about what he’s doing and calling it “numerology” is evidence of your bad faith. What does Habermas say at minute 35? “Paul said ‘I went out in Arabia for three years.”

    Here’s the link again.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0O4bHuQmX8

    Ooh. Establishing a timeline of events is, per Carlitos, “numerology.”

    You’re freaking rabid, carlitos. Mention Jesus and you go into full blown mania.

    But please. Anyone who is interested go to the video and see for yourselves. Just watch a minute or two and you’ll see carlitos is bent.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  329. Steve, I wonder if carlitos even read DRJ’s ( DRJ (e80d46) — 5/5/2015 @ 1:11 pm
    ) link. That could have changed, if not settled, the discussion if he was the least bit honest.

    felipe (56556d)

  330. he believes in the skydragon* who drives up rivers, sends hordes of locust to Europe, and massive dust storms to erase Las Vegas, unless we profer a sacrifice,

    *National Geographic, Earth 2025

    narciso (ee1f88)

  331. 332. Holy Crap, 35 minutes in, this Habernas idiot is doing numerology, a la Louis Farrakhan.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/5/2015 @ 4:25 pm

    I spent 5 days in Hawaii. Apparently if I tell people that, I’m doing “numerology, a la Louis Farrakhan.”

    Because mentioning numbers = numerology.

    I take it that video is more convincing than you want to let on, carlitos. Otherwise you wouldn’t be lying about it.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  332. I don’t care to argue religion with people, but I have long enjoyed reading theologians.

    Augustine of Hippo wrote something that I wish more people would think about:

    “If you believe what you like in the Gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.”

    My guess is that Steve would approve. I think about that quote a great deal. “The City of God” is an important book to me.

    I enjoy your posts, sir.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  333. felipe, can you do me a favor. Can you watch 30 seconds of the video circa the 35 minute mark and let us know if Habermas is doing “numerology, a la Louis Farrakhan.”

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  334. Oh God, I’m so embarrassed by this video. He just straight-up lies. He is a liar. I wish that I could stop watching, but it’s like a car crash. The Blackhawks game starts soon, so I probably won’t finish. Bart Ehrman gives “11 independent sources” for the crucifixion of Jesus?

    Another question for the apologists – is lying for Jesus acceptable in your world?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  335. If lying for Jesus was acceptable in my world I’d have no problem with you, carlitos.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  336. @340, I agree with it and accept it, SJ. It doesn’t matter if I approve.

    The Bible doesn’t say I’m OK but no one else is. The Bible says I’m in just as much trouble as anyone else.

    Romans 14:

    3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind

    It doesn’t say I can get all judgey about some gay guy looking to buy a wedding cake. Or a woman going into a pharmacy for a morning after pill.

    It says I have to get my own s*** together. Which is why, thank you very much, I can’t be a party to your gay wedding cake or sell you Plan B.

    My life would be easier if the Bible didn’t tell me these things.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  337. From the video:

    They believe that Paul received this material around 35 AD.

    …. Plus 5?

    For a nice round number, we’re calling it 30 AD.

    It was either plus 2 or plus 3.

    Galatians 1:16 “I met Jesus”

    When did Paul have his Damascus Road experience? Either plus 2 or plus 3.

    Let’s do the math, here’s the cross:

    3 years later

    3 + 3 = 6, 30 AD.
    2 + 3 = 35.

    I spent 15 days with Peter, I saw no others, except James the brother of Jesus.

    Maybe I misinterpreted, or he misspoke. the “2 plus 3 is 35” reminded me of Mr. Farrakhan.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  338. “he believes in the skydragon* who drives up rivers, sends hordes of locust to Europe, and massive dust storms to erase Las Vegas, unless we profer a sacrifice,”

    narciso – Are you referring to carlitos and his church of global warming?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  339. yes, apparently an imminently more probably outcome, daley,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  340. It says I have to get my own s*** together. Which is why, thank you very much, I can’t be a party to your gay wedding cake or sell you Plan B.

    My life would be easier if the Bible didn’t tell me these things.

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/5/2015 @ 5:07 pm

    I’ll tell you the same thing that I tell my kid — Imagining future conflict is not mentally healthy for you. No one is making you sell gay wedding cakes or Plan B. Your life would be easier if you just let it go.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  341. daleyrocks, I have offered many a sacrifice to Las Vegas.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  342. The best argument that Jesus was a real person is to simply ask this question: if he was not a real person, how did the Church start? I can not think of any rational theory that can explain the Church with only an imaginary Jesus.

    The references in Josephus are probably not by Josephus. He was a priest of the Temple and a client of the imperial family, and therefore doubly motivated to depict Jesus’s execution as justified, and to not refer to Jesus in complimentary terms. It is interesting that the story about acclaiming Vespasian as future emperor is well known in Judaism, but attached to Yochanan ben Zakkai, the man who might be said to have saved Judaism from the ruins and who laid the groundwork for rabbinical Judaism. It might well be that both men were astute enough to read the political winds.

    kishnevi (adea75)

  343. carlitos, I don’t understand why you’re trying to manufacture a problem. To bring up the 3rd Gallica again, if I can establish it was stationed in Syria within a a particular decade, then garrisoned Jerusalem around a certain year, then was transferred to Moesia during a certain decade, that’s pretty good for antiquity.

    I only bring up the 3rd Gallica because I’ve got the book handy. Of course, when they really made themselves famous they were no longer Gallic. They were sun worshiping Syrians. After fighting all night at Cremona they prayed to Baal, and their shouts of greeting at the rising sun were confused by the army of Vitellius as greeting rumored reinforcements. Which dispirited them, and turned the tide to Vespasian.

    I don’t see why I can know these things, and not know Jesus lived.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  344. Abbreviated notes from Last Supper Staff Meeting… After a stretch break:

    Jesus says that everybody should transform their frustration into Focused Strategy Attention—rule three from The Winners’ Guide to Winning Everything Imaginable. He offers everyone a relaxing foot bath.

    Matthew calmly announces that he likes Jesus because Jesus is nice to people even when they’re mean to each other; he asks Jesus if he wants to come to karaoke night on Saturday at Wicker Baskets. Jesus says he’ll think about it, but hopefully yes.

    James the Elder recalls the meeting to order and says that spreading the good news is all about the Three L’s: Learning, Leading, and famiLy.

    John gets confused about the third L; and what if people don’t have families?

    James the Elder appeals to his credentials: he used to be head of marketing at Antony & Cleopatra (before the asp-induced restructuring).

    Matthew says fine, but is there any way to operationalize the Three L’s, possibly by thinking outside the box?

    James the Elder says yes and passes out a Creativity Schematic with many, many arrows.

    Jesus concludes by telling his disciples that some might not take kindly to their ideas about love, forgiveness, and worship.

    Everyone says they’re strong and don’t mind.

    Jesus says they might be heckled. They might be laughed at. They might get flailed, their skin might peel off their body, and then they might be crucified upside down. They might even be called mean names.

    Everyone says they’re strong and don’t mind.

    Philip says wait, what was that third thing?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  345. I can not think of any rational theory that can explain the Church with only an imaginary Jesus.
    kishnevi (adea75) — 5/5/2015 @ 5:27 pm

    Seriously? A real guy is necessary for a religion to start? How would you explain the worship of Thor, Ra or Brahm?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  346. any heretical sect, proved a problem to Roman authority, Pilate was a little more focused on the sicari, because they killed you when they became disagreeable, of course we have that idiot Arslan, who intentionally titles his tome, the translation of that word,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  347. I don’t see why I can know these things, and not know Jesus lived.

    Steve57 (818fa4) — 5/5/2015 @ 5:30 pm

    I do.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  348. 349. …I’ll tell you the same thing that I tell my kid — Imagining future conflict is not mentally healthy for you. No one is making you sell gay wedding cakes or Plan B. Your life would be easier if you just let it go.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 5/5/2015 @ 5:16 pm

    Imagining future conflicts is how I used to develop training scenarios when I was in the Navy.

    Really. You should explore the concept.

    I could make the case that failing to imagine them is what doomed the Japanese at Midway. And us on 9/11. And probably a thousand times since.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  349. I laugh at that, because Christianity is the only hope for Mankind.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  350. IMHO

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  351. ditto coronello,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  352. I’m thinking of changing my commenting handle to “Steve57 aka Capitano di Corvetta.”

    Because it roughly corresponds to my former Navy rank. Plus while the Miata project has been temporarily shelved there’s a guy selling a mid-80s Corvette that that I just might be able to swing. It’s plain Jane vanilla white with an interior decked out in the hyde of the Nauga in a hue I lovingly refer to as “whorehouse red.”

    I’ve got a set of World S/R torquers heads and an Edelbrock intake and Rochester Quadrajet sitting on a shelf a-raring to go.

    On the other hand if anyone knows how to mate a Suburu WRX drivetrain out of an Imprezza into a Berrien sand rail I may just skip all the other BS and go straight to that.

    http://berriendunebuggy.com/

    I’m thinking with a couple of hard gun scabbards strapped on to the frame it’d be just the thing for deer hunting.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  353. The Rochester Quadrajet has been suitably modified. It probably flows 900 to 1000 cfm.

    The key with a Quadrajet is that you absolutely have to have a good fuel pump. You need that with any carb, sure, but Quadrajets have particularly tiny fuel bowls.

    Second choice would be my Carter AFB. Not a big fan of the Holley as they tend to leak. But I have one. Actually I have a couple.

    I really need to start selling stuff.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  354. Your ship awaits you, Captain Steve.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/USS_Constellation_Inner_Harbor.JPG/600px-USS_Constellation_Inner_Harbor.JPG

    Though you may need riot gear to reach it just now.

    kishnevi (adea75)

  355. Or would you prefer the challenge of correcting 2600 inconsistencies?
    http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=USS-Freedom-LCS1

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  356. Oh God, I’m so embarrassed by this video. He just straight-up lies. He is a liar. I wish that I could stop watching, but it’s like a car crash. The Blackhawks game starts soon, so I probably won’t finish. Bart Ehrman gives “11 independent sources” for the crucifixion of Jesus?

    Bart Ehrman, the agnostic biblical scholar? Why do you say he is lying?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  357. 363. Your ship awaits you, Captain Steve.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/USS_Constellation_Inner_Harbor.JPG/600px-USS_Constellation_Inner_Harbor.JPG

    Though you may need riot gear to reach it just now.
    kishnevi (adea75) — 5/5/2015 @ 6:36 pm

    Believe it or not I know how to use a baton. And a fire hose. Courtesy of the Shipboard Security Engagement Tactics course. And life.

    If I was mayor of the USS Constellation nobody would be burning her because she’s “only property.”

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  358. you might need a ‘plasma rifle in the forty watt range, to get through there, carlitos doesn’t listen or read clearly, Habermas said even Ehrman, yadda yadda

    narciso (ee1f88)

  359. 364. Or would you prefer the challenge of correcting 2600 inconsistencies?
    http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=USS-Freedom-LCS1
    kishnevi (91d5c6) — 5/5/2015 @ 6:40 pm

    I’ll take the court martial, kishnevi.

    http://navycaptain-therealnavy.blogspot.com/2010/10/former-san-antonio-xo-opts-for-court.html

    Kearns was exonerated, BTW.

    I think I solved 2600 inconsistencies when one of my former commands put me in charge of the classified library shortly before a major inspection.

    For something like 50 years they had been stashing people who just couldn’t cut it as watch standers into the back reaches of the bowels of the command. Which, unfortunately included the classified library. I recall finding one publication on the ZSU-23-4 sitting on a shelf that had been declassified since 1976. This was in the early 90s.

    There was stuff on the inventory that should have been burned two decades earlier. There was stuff on the inventory that wasn’t on the shelves. There was stuff on the shelves that wasn’t on the inventory.

    They tried to stick a couple of other guys with the job but they called the detailer and got the h3ll out of dodge. I was the clown who got stuck with the job.

    Why? This is going to shock you, kishnevi, so sit down and hold on.

    Sometimes I rub people the wrong way. And they take a dislike to me.

    I know!

    How I threaded that needle and avoided prison I just can’t explain.

    Right up until the last minute I was working on discrepancy 2589 and 2600. Two publications that should have been destroyed when I was on Obama’s J.V. Rugby team. We were still accountable for them.

    Found ’em.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  360. In case people are unfamiliar with the USS San Antonio thingy, the sent they LPD-17 to the fleet without working out basic SOP. Such as deploying the RHIB.

    One of the BS reasons they tried to hang the XO, LCDR Kearns, was that he wasn’t on the bridge when they launched the RHIB. Somehow his presence on the bridge would have prevented PO1 Theo-philus Ansong’s death.

    A cursory examination of the LPD-17 would show that you can’t even see, from the bridge wings, what’s going on on the small boat deck thanks to the “stealthy” curve of the superstructure.

    I wish the Navy would stop sending ships to the fleet with 2600 discrepancies for the Sailors to work out.

    The world does not conform to my wishes.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  361. You mentioned that episode the other day. Probably the men who preceded you in that slot went on to work for the government.

    Do they still automatically court martial any captain who manages to lose his ship?

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  362. Yes. Put a hole in a naval vessel and, if you’re in charge, you will get court martialed. Or at least go to Admiral’s mast.

    At least in peace time. And at the start of a war. Until people find better things to do.

    I was in Yokosuka when CDR Mooney, skipper of the USS San Francisco, hit a sea mount. They allowed him to retire because, really, anybody could have done it. The sea mount wasn’t on the charts. But he was the captain. And command is lonely.

    http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2006/03/cdr-kevin-mooneys-retirement-remarks.html

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  363. well JFK ended up with his PT boat sliced in two, I know rhetorical, dad had Forrestal on speed dial.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  364. …SAN FRAN had a top notch and enthusiastic crew. Sure, there was a lot of work to do, but we dug in our heels and drove forward despite some huge challenges, particularly with the ship’s material condition and the inadequacy of Guam as a submarine home port. In just over a year, we had made remarkable progress. We steamed over 7000 miles from Guam to San Diego replace our propulsion shaft in a submarine drydock unavailable in Guam. We persevered through numerous ship’s casualties including several major freon ruptures, a major electrical fire, two hydraulic ruptures, and on and on. Just like the SAN FRAN Creed states, we never gave up. We fixed the material problems, disciplined ourselves to operate efficiently and effectively, and finally went to sea for extended periods to conduct special reconnaissance operations. Just after being ranked as the best submarine in the Force in engineering readiness, we set off from Guam to Brisbane, Australia in January 2005. You all know how the cruel sea punished us during this journey, so I’ll bypass the details, but please allow me to shed some perspective on the events that followed. After suffering the worst possible shock in the history of nuclear submarine operations, every single Sailor on SAN FRANCISCO — yes, every single one — did his military duty. Some did much more than their duty and acted in truly heroic fashion: Matt Parsons, Craig Litty, Billy Cramer, Danny Hager, Jake Elder, Max Chia, Chris Baumhoff, Doc Akin, Gil Daigle, and more: Key, Miller, Pierce, Powell, Smoot, McDonald. I could go on. But one hero clearly stands above all the others, he was my favorite Sailor, and the one who I miss every day, Petty Officer Joey Ashley.

    In the aftermath of our tragic grounding, we, the crew of SAN FRANCISCO, forged bonds that never can be broken:
    – not by investigations, nor Admiral’s Mast, nor punishments
    – not by grief, nor anger, nor sadness, and
    – never by distance, space, or time
    Why, you may ask, are these bonds so strong? Because as Chief Johnny Johnson surely would tell you, THERE ARE NO BONDS STRONGER THAN THOSE FORMED BY MEN WHO HAVE FACED DEATH TOGETHER. And on a very personal level, there is something even more remarkable: even though it was I who brought harm upon my men through my own shortcomings, today this room is filled with my SAN FRANCISCO brothers. Shipmates, I shall never forget your courage and loyalty and I was proud to serve as your Commanding Officer. …

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  365. narciso @372, how a PT boat with three liberty engines gets run down by a Japanese destroyer is just a tad more inexplicable than how the San Francisco ran aground in poorly charted waters.

    Mooney didn’t have to swim out to the middle of Blackett Sound with a lantern to try and attract help. Because he saved his ship.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  366. After screwing the pooch, nuking the koala, d***ing the dog, s***ing the bed, Kennedy did dig deep and make a nice recovery. I have to give him that.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  367. you left out “sinking the Olds”, Steve…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  368. oh… you meant John…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  369. Sorry, Coronello.

    I’ll try to be more clear about my Kennedy’s in future.

    Like, we’ll be talking about Kennedys in the future.

    sinceramente,

    Steve57

    Capitano di Corvetta

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  370. Yo no soy marinero
    Yo no soy marinero, soy capitan
    Soy capitan, soy capitan
    Bamba, bamba
    Bamba, bamba
    Bamba, bamba, bam

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  371. Bart Ehrman, the agnostic biblical scholar? Why do you say he is lying?

    Because carlitos refuses to believe that Jesus was an actual person, and so all evidence that contradicts him is by definition a lie.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  372. The guy in the video was not Bart Ehrman.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  373. carlitos,

    You expressed surprise that the speaker was quoting Bart Ehrman, suggesting you find Ehrman to be someone who is not reliable.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  374. The New York police are investigating men taking video/pictures of 2 large synagogues.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  375. 3. Twitter is sadly predictable on this. More “punching down” silliness.

    Simon Jester (c9ebdd) — 5/3/2015 @ 8:55 pm

    Small, craven, petty people doing small, craven, petty things like unconditional surrender because terrorism works do not like to admit they’re doing small, craven, petty things.

    Instead they have to insist they have lofty, high-minded purposes. Why?

    They’re too small, craven, and petty to admit the truth to themselves.

    Basically Pamela Geller held up a mirror in front of their faces and they don’t like what they see. So they attack Pamela Geller.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  376. You expressed surprise that the speaker was quoting Bart Ehrman, suggesting you find Ehrman to be someone who is not reliable.

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/6/2015 @ 9:12 am

    No, I did not express surprise that the speaker was quoting Bart Ehrman. I expressed surprise that the speaker was misquoting Bart Ehrman. If Mr. Ehrman has found “11 independent sources” for the crucifixion of Jesus, that is news to me. Perhaps you could cite them or give me a link?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  377. I’m sorry I misunderstood your comment, carlitos. I thought you expressed surprise at Ehrman but you’ve clarified your surprise was that Ehrman has found “11 independent sources” for the cruxifiction. I didn’t watch the video so I will take your word for it he said that. Ehrman has clearly expressed a belief that Jesus existed, saying we know that from “numerous sources:

    With respect to Jesus, we have numerous, independent accounts of his life in the sources lying behind the Gospels (and the writings of Paul) — sources that originated in Jesus’ native tongue Aramaic and that can be dated to within just a year or two of his life (before the religion moved to convert pagans in droves). Historical sources like that are is pretty astounding for an ancient figure of any kind.

    Perhaps those sources also reference the cruxifiction.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  378. Since Ehrman wasn’t on the video, I should have said I will take your word for it the speaker on the video said Ehrman found “11 independent sources.”

    DRJ (e80d46)

  379. I’m not sure what you mean about the brain flip reactions; can you please elaborate?

    I meant what bothers you more: A mocking of Mohammed or a mocking of Christ?

    You raised a bit of moral equivalency by pointing out Christians or people of the right being indignant about “Christ in Piss.” Such resentment I have no problem in understanding and accepting, if not wholeheartedly endorsing.

    Whether Christ was real or not, he, unlike Islam’s founder, didn’t have a history (again, whether real or imagined) of being a vengeful, ruthless, diabolical figurehead.

    Mark (607f93)

  380. Perhaps. Ehrman argues by assertion a whole lot, so it’s hard to say.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  381. I meant what bothers you more: A mocking of Mohammed or a mocking of Christ?

    Mark (607f93) — 5/6/2015 @ 10:33 am

    Neither. You can mock Darth Vader, Col. José Arcadio Buendía, Jesus or Mohammed. What’s the difference?

    Whether Christ was real or not, he, unlike Islam’s founder, didn’t have a history (again, whether real or imagined) of being a vengeful, ruthless, diabolical figurehead.

    Mark (607f93) — 5/6/2015 @ 10:33 am

    Correct. Jesus did not have a history. Are you seriously arguing which legend had a better legend? So what? Thor had a history of throwing thunderbolts at stuff. So?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  382. I admire your determined mind, carlitos. I think we are alike in that regard. Perhaps you can consider discussing opinions you disagree with, instead of simply discounting them as stupid or expressed by stupid people. Even stupid people come up with right answers now and then, plus showing why someone else is wrong — instead of simply proclaiming them wrong — would exercise that bright mind of yours and help the rest of us understand your positions.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  383. Correct. Jesus did not have a history.

    Okay. So the next question is whose history (whether real or imagined) do you find more repugnant: That of Christ or that of Mohammed?

    Mark (607f93)

  384. So, carlitos, do you reject Erhman’s conclusion that Jesus did exist based on numerous independent sources?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  385. carlitos, did I stray into “numerology a la Louis Farrakhan” when I mentioned @374 that PT boats had three aircraft engines?

    Because that’s what you said about Habermas, when he was explaining that by normal historical methods we can place Paul in Corinth in 51 A.D.

    Clearly, mentioning numbers = numerology in your universe.

    Steve57 (818fa4)

  386. Perhaps you can consider discussing opinions you disagree with, instead of simply discounting them as stupid or expressed by stupid people. Even stupid people come up with right answers now and then, plus showing why someone else is wrong — instead of simply proclaiming them wrong — would exercise that bright mind of yours and help the rest of us understand your positions.

    DRJ (e80d46) — 5/6/2015 @ 10:38 am

    I will try to work on that, DRJ.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  387. Great! Then let’s discuss my statement that “America is for Americans” and your response that you find that an “interesting POV” on the other thread.

    DRJ (e80d46)


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