Patterico's Pontifications

4/1/2015

Internet Mob-Attacks Indiana Pizza Place for Saying It Would Not Cater a Gay Wedding

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:12 pm



Stop the presses! A family-owned pizza parlor in a small town in Indiana says, not they would refuse to serve pizza to gays, but that they would not cater a gay wedding if asked to . . . which they certainly never would be. I see no evidence that the owners sought out the media to make this statement; rather, it sounds like some ABC reporter was walking from business to business asking if they would cater gay weddings, no matter how unlikely, and found someone who said they wouldn’t.

The thugs soon kicked into high gear. A high school coach was asking on Twitter: “Who’s going to Walkerton, IN to burn down #memoriespizza with me?” Their Web site was hacked and filled with obscene images. And Yelp and Google have filled up with reviews from the SJW mafia. And, of course, what would a campaign like this be without death threats?

Meanwhile, Dana Loesch has started a GoFundMe campaign for the shop which has raised over $18,000 in the last two hours.

I’ll say it again: to me, this is less about religion and more about the fundamental principle that the only “rights” that deserve to be recognized are rights to be left alone by the government (what philosophers call “negative rights”). What philosophers call “positive rights” — like the “right” to have health care . . . or to have a cake (or a pepperoni and Italian sausage thick crust pie!) baked for your wedding — are actually not “rights” at all. They are attempts to use the government to coerce people into doing things that they have not agreed to do. This is disgusting and it is not freedom.

UPDATE: Please tell me this is all some giant April Fool’s joke.

UPDATE x2: After 7 hours, the GoFundMe stands at over $45,000. That’s a lot of 12-inch pepperoni pies. Well, I guess the Social Justice Warriors have won — if by “winning” you mean “cause a business to earn in 7 hours what it probably would have earned in a good month, if not more.”

UPDATE x3: If we’re talking profit? $45,000 could be a year’s worth of profit for a place like this. Thanks to elissa for challenging my assumptions on this.

UPDATE x4: At 12:09 p.m., less than 24 hours after the GoFundMe campaign started, the money stands at over $210,000. That’s probably years’ worth of profits for this business.

It’s nice that people are standing up for freedom, but Mandy Nagy’s GoFundMe stands at about $31,000, and I think she did at least as much as this pizza place to stand up for freedom — and Mandy needs the help more. If you are looking to donate to freedom today, why not donate to Mandy?

UPDATE x5: Less than 48 hours later, the GoFundMe for the pizza folks stands at over $725,000. (Mandy’s has taken in more than $250 after a week-long lull, which is also nice. Thanks to those of you who contributed.) I probably won’t do another update on this unless it exceeds $1M.

This story clearly taps into a vein of anger out there. I hope these folks will channel that into something productive on the electoral front, like supporting Ted Cruz.

756 Responses to “Internet Mob-Attacks Indiana Pizza Place for Saying It Would Not Cater a Gay Wedding”

  1. Absurd.

    Patterico (15be32)

  2. old and busted: Hillary Clinton

    new hotness: gay indiana pizza weddings!

    happyfeet (831175)

  3. They have the publicity you wished them to have, happy. (“yes yes yes simply publicizing who the bigots are what want to do the prejudice on the gays should be plenty recourse for people”) And now the marketplace of ideas thuggery and threats is addressing the problem.

    Do our bidding or we will fuck with your lives! Make my cake pizza!

    Patterico (15be32)

  4. I think if Indiana can just hold out for a little while, pretty soon sensible people are going to wake up to just how unreasonable the fascist mob is acting here. But what the mob hopes is that Indiana caves and repeals the law, so they can claim victory without ever having had to defend their thuggish tactics.

    Meanwhile, I’m going to throw a few bucks at the GoFundMe for the pizza parlor.

    JVW (a1146f)

  5. But we all know that GLADD has likely raised tens of millions of dollars over the past few days by whipping up the hysteria over this.

    JVW (a1146f)

  6. My pizza place gives a 2-liter bottle of RC with every large pizza. Maybe if Memories Pizza gave a jar of Vaseline?

    nk (dbc370)

  7. see it’s always the extremists what get to define both sides but I think of the good Christian family sitting at home thinking hey it’s pizza night

    then mom says hey what’s say we try someplace else where the owners aren’t all weird about gay people

    good idea mom! says lil Timmy

    and bettyandisbel come dancing

    happyfeet (831175)

  8. nk, sounds like they will need it because of the media and the SJWs.

    But just think about how GREAT the people marching and hacking and threatening feel!

    Why—they are all cool and just! Just like NPR and Jon Stewart! Not haters at all!

    Wait.

    Orwell wept.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  9. Thank you for #3, Patterico.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  10. One must choose ideologically where to purchase goods and get service. I have been practicing this for a few years and it makes me feel worthy doing business with like minded liberty loving people. Screw the left and their gay idol worship. Why do lefty’s wannabe black and gay? or gay and black, hell who gets top billing? it’s so confusing nowadays, makes me want to get in the closet.

    mg (31009b)

  11. Why do gays hate pizza parlors?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  12. The good news is that the GoFundMe is taking off. They are already over $20,000. It would be a pretty strong message if they reached the $50,000 goal within a few hours of launching.

    JVW (a1146f)

  13. 3. They have the publicity you wished them to have, happy. (

    Patterico (15be32) — 4/1/2015 @ 5:20 pm

    Don’t forget the lying part, Pat.

    If you’d rather not cater a gay wedding, Mr. feets and his gang will flood social media with the message you won’t serve gays at all.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  14. That’s what “naming and shaming” is.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  15. The DOJ will probably be investigating forthwith.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  16. And the IRS.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  17. Steve, the truth doesn’t matter. The feels do.

    And again, when I say the feels, I mean: the way the haters feel while lying, threatening, and vandalizing.

    It’s heroic and strong.

    Plus they get to be part of a mindless hateful mob, while accusing others of being hateful. Who doesn’t like that kind of low-cost superiority with little intellectual investment and no consequences?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  18. This was as predictable as the sun rising in the east. I fear for these poor naive small town people. I wish when asked she had smiled and said, “Is this a for real real order because we’ve never catered a wedding. Do you think you will mainly be wanting pepperoni or veggie along with a few cheese? As a small family business I’ll need the deposit of half today so we can get the ingredients.” It would have died. right. there.

    elissa (501dd9)

  19. 7. see it’s always the extremists what get to define both sides but I think of the good Christian family sitting at home thinking hey it’s pizza night

    then mom says hey what’s say we try someplace else where the owners aren’t all weird about gay people

    good idea mom! says lil Timmy

    and bettyandisbel come dancing

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/1/2015 @ 5:25 pm

    The “Who, me? I’m just a harmless picachu” act only works so long.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  20. Does CAIR know that gay bars keep Korans in the bathrooms for toilet paper?

    nk (dbc370)

  21. I absolutely detest the lynch mob mindset of so many Americans today.

    “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” 
    ― Albert Einstein

    MSL (5f601f)

  22. 18. This was as predictable as the sun rising in the east. I fear for these poor naive small town people. I wish when asked she had smiled and said, “Is this a for real real order because we’ve never catered a wedding. Do you think you will mainly be wanting pepperoni or veggie along with a few cheese? As a small family business I’ll need the deposit of half today so we can get the ingredients.” It would have died. right. there.

    elissa (501dd9) — 4/1/2015 @ 5:38 pm

    I wish you were right. But ultimately it doesn’t matter what they say. Anything less then a positive, celebratory affirmation of SSM is dissent, and dissent is a crime against humanity.

    Look at the reality.

    1. They said they would serve anybody who came into their restaurant.

    2. They said they wouldn’t cater a gay wedding, though.

    3. The media flooded social media with the message that they hated gays and wouldn’t serve them under any conditions.

    There’s no tactical messaging at this point. It’s what we’re dealing with.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  23. I was surprised to see Reason’s take on this so slanted against the Pizzeria owners…even while technically supporting them.

    Pizzeria owner says:

    “The O’Connor family told ABC 57 news that if a gay couple or a couple belonging to another religion came in to the restaurant to eat, they would never deny them service.

    The O’Connors say they just don’t agree with gay marriages and wouldn’t cater them if asked to.”

    The response to those lines from the writer at reason is:
    “The O’Connors’ views are wrong in just about every way possible.”

    Really, not refusing service in your restaurant is completely over looked. So what if they don’t cater a wedding?

    Who gets Pizza catering at a wedding anyways? Not gay people I bet.

    What an issue blown out of proportion.

    Reason Write-Up

    Dejectedhead (4bfcf6)

  24. It’s important to note that SSM isn’t really the issue. It’s just the baseball bat currently in use.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  25. It is not a joke.

    Rodney King's Spirit (d5efc1)

  26. happyfeet, your desired scenario actually plays out more like this:

    The good Christian family sits at home thinking “hey, it’s pizza night!”

    Then mom says “Hey, what’s say we eat at the pizza place that all of us really like!”

    “No mom,” says li’l Timmy, “the gays will call us homophobes and work to get dad fired from his teaching job, all because that pizzeria didn’t want to cater that gay porn movie shoot they did over at the Lazy R Ranch.”

    “I guess you’re right,” replies mom. “It’s not worth crossing them; they know how to make life miserable for all of us.”

    “Maybe we should stand up for a business who is being unfairly maligned and show them that they can’t bully everyone as a way of enforcing their social priorities,” suggests Betty.

    “Ah, it’s too late for that,” says mom sadly. “We all got cowed into quietly acquiescing to their demands, and by the time we realized that all along they intended to use their leverage to silence us, they already had the upper hand.”

    “OK,” interjects Isabel forlornly, “I guess we have to take out from that crappy vegan place that the two guys from California recently opened up. They’re the only one with the GLADD Seal of Absolute Compliance sticker in their window.”

    JVW (a1146f)

  27. 23. …Who gets Pizza catering at a wedding anyways? Not gay people I bet.

    Dejectedhead (4bfcf6) — 4/1/2015 @ 5:46 pm

    Ever been to the Midwest? I drove through Kansas and the “Italian” place was serving boiled pasta and ketchup. Who serves pizza at a wedding? What the h3ll else is there?

    But, yeah, probably not gay people.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  28. ==There’s no tactical messaging at this point. It’s what we’re dealing with.==

    Way to miss the point Steve57! Most readers prolly realized I wasn’t suggesting a tactical message now after the fact to appease-but a friendly push back when the media walked in the door and asked their question. Do YOU think the inquirer would have placed the order and pulled out their credit card to cement “the deal”? I don’t.

    elissa (501dd9)

  29. Clearly the best way to avoid situations like this is to never tell people what motivates you.

    Of course, that’s the whole point, isn’t it?

    Dejectedhead (4bfcf6)

  30. Ok, you’re right, elissa. That would have totes worked.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  31. Back in the early 60’s an Italian family opened a pizza parlor in my little hometown in s.w. mn.
    Darn good pizza. thin and crispy. Never had a gay issue. The place was always full of catholics, lutherans, presbyterians, mennonites and polka lovers. Miss those days of innocence.

    mg (31009b)

  32. Dejectedhead hit the nail on the, uh, head at No. 29.

    Remember the Chik-Fil-A “controversy”? Although the restaurant chain won that particular battle, I told everybody who would listen that “the gay community” succeeded in sending a message: if you dare to publicly express a thought that they do not condone, they will do everything they can to destroy you. I imagine a lot of businesses, large and small, got the message.

    In the meantime, don’t ever forget the unspoken mantra of the left: if it isn’t forbidden, it’s mandatory.

    Whitey Nisson (79e3a8)

  33. Bugger me if this doesn’t smack of the kind of tactics used against California’s Prop. 8 supporters… except if the supporters happen to be black folks, of course. They keep their brownshirted pizza pie-holes shut in that case.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  34. Pence should have been wiser and more discerning than to fall into the media trap. His foolish naïveté got the ball rolling .

    Dana (769669)

  35. In the meantime, don’t ever forget the unspoken mantra of the left: if it isn’t forbidden, it’s mandatory.

    Notable exceptions: church attendance and gun ownership.

    JVW (a1146f)

  36. Pence should have been wiser and more discerning than to fall into the media trap. His foolish naïveté got the ball rolling .

    Maybe, but I get the feeling this was going to get spun into an anti-gay thing no matter what anyone said or did. There’s money to raise and conservatives to demonize after all!

    JVW (a1146f)

  37. Open the pizza place up for one “Hide-The-Salami” night… just think of all the memories made there.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. well choosing Snufflafagus, as a venue, was a poor choice,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  39. Unless people think this was the only establishment in the whole state of Indiana that the media tried to “catch” with their question, you can bet that others probably sized up the situation, smelled the ambush, mumbled “sure”, and the cameraman walked right out the door. I am not “blaming the victim” but she seemed very happy to be filmed –until it fell apart.

    elissa (501dd9)

  40. Coronello, I think you missed my comment on this thread.

    http://patterico.com/2015/03/30/indianas-religious-freedom-restoration-act-how-about-a-general-freedom-restoration-act-instead/

    “Hide-The-Salami-Nite” is held every Saturday at the local Episcopal church bingo hall.

    Following the Blessing of the Swingers.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  41. Unless people think this was the only establishment in the whole state of Indiana that the media tried to “catch” with their question, you can bet that others probably sized up the situation, smelled the ambush, mumbled “sure”, and the cameraman walked right out the door.

    Sure, and speaking as the friend of a guy who owns a pizza parlor, I’m sure the vast majority of restaurant owners in Indiana given the chance to cater a gay wedding would hear the cha-ching! of the cash register. I know that no matter what my friend thinks of gay marriage (and I doubt he supports it) he would be thinking, “Let’s see, 20 large pizzas at $14 per, plus garlic bread at $3 per order, five large salads at $12 per. . . . “

    JVW (a1146f)

  42. 41. removing all doubt,

    http://twitchy.com/2015/04/01/who-needs-democrats-gop-sen-mark-kirk-calls-ind-rfra-law-bigoted-un-american/

    narciso (ee1f88) — 4/1/2015 @ 6:20 pm

    How many pizzerias does he propose to burn, just to prove his “anti-bigotry” stance is real?

    It’s kinda like a gang initiation.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  43. You’re not really against bigotry unless you’ve torched a business owned by people who disagree with you.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  44. Even some congress-critters… http://t.co/NKkW9oyyHF

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  45. #44. Does that make is a wood fired or brick fired?

    Dejectedhead (4bfcf6)

  46. It mostly depends on your preferred accelerant, Mr. Head, and not the actual fuel.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  47. Mark Kirk is gay. Gay as that is his sexual orientation gay. Everybody knows that.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. I am GLAAD I have been away from Indy on vacation for much of this. Suffice it to say he hysteria and hypothetical parade of horribles running through my social media threads is amazing. And constant.

    JD (8817a5)

  49. That stroke he had? It was caused by an embolus in his carotid because he was playing the suffocation game — the one that killed David Carradine.

    nk (dbc370)

  50. I think it is clear that the only approved view is that ssm is wonderful and don’t you dare disagree,
    and if you demand to disagree,
    stfu or we will make your life hell until you wish you never crossed us.

    I hate it when even the conservative leaning give in, Kelly lets somebody get away with equating declining to do a SSW with the clan,
    “People are allowed freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but we can’t allow (what we think) is bigotry based on ‘who a person is or who they love’ ”
    “The marketplace works, businesses that discriminate will not last”.
    That’s how the person described the situation with this pizza parlor, that the market was represented accurately by the threatening speech by a small minority who likely would never be within 50 miles of this place.

    I hate to say I told you so, and actually hate even more that I was right,
    but years ago I said that there was a fundamental logical inconsistency with solidifying into law that ssm was equivalent to heterosexual marriage and thinking that people who had religious convictions in disagreement to that would be allowed to voice or act on that conviction in public.

    First they came for the photographer, but I wasn’t a photographer,
    then the cam for the bakers, but I wasn’t a baker,
    then they came for the pizzerias, but I didn’t make pizza,

    then they stood outside my church and took pictures of our license plates and harassed us as they did prop 8 supporters
    and reported me to social services for teaching hate to my child
    and there was no one left to defend

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  51. ==Pence should have been wiser and more discerning than to fall into the media trap. His foolish naïveté got the ball rolling .==

    Dana, I agree. I am gobsmacked –not by the law itself– but by the naïveté of so many. He signed the law in a private ceremony so he must have had *some* inkling that it was going to be considered controversial. But the really stupid thing was the timing. Why sign it the week right before a huge national sporting event in your state when he and anyone on his staff should have known reporters and camera crews would be present in great numbers and be out trolling for spicy human interest stories about the event, fans, players, etc. There would have been a media storm over this law regardless. (Sun rising in the East) But the Final Four tourism and added publicity really has taken it to another whole level of horribleness.

    elissa (501dd9)

  52. The GoFundMe is closing in on $28,000 already. Ironically, like the whole Chick-Fil-A kerfuffle, this is going to redound to the benefit of the businessman who acted on principle.

    JVW (a1146f)

  53. I wouldn’t know about that, I am aware of how susceptible he is to certain issues, like that bogus gun control bill he worked on with Manchin,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  54. there was nothing wrong with the bill, but as with SB 1070, whose author Kobach, they tried to topple last year, it is a lesson to be taught, ‘crush your enemies, see them driven before you, (leave out the last part)

    narciso (ee1f88)

  55. I am GLAAD I have been away from Indy on vacation for much of this. Suffice it to say he hysteria and hypothetical parade of horribles running through my social media threads is amazing. And constant.

    I personally stopped following the Facebook feeds of three friends today. I actually support gay civil unions, and for all I care they can call them “marriages,” but this manufactured hysteria is just too damn much.

    And JD, one of the people who I stopped following on Facebook is a native of Indiana who lives in New York City now. He had been going on and on about how he is so ashamed to be a Hoosier and he hates how rednecky his Indiana friends are and blah blah blah. He had something like eight different posts about this matter up until the time I stopped following. Naturally, he’s straight and married with two children, though his politics are impeccably leftwing.

    JVW (a1146f)

  56. ==How many pizzerias does he propose to burn, just to prove his “anti-bigotry” stance is real?
    It’s kinda like a gang initiation. Steve57 (b69525) — 4/1/2015 @ 6:23 pm==

    Steve57, Sen Kirk has his faults. But he is not going to go out and torch pizzerias. Your credibility suffers in the same way the other side’s does when you spew crap.

    elissa (501dd9)

  57. elissa,
    you need to remember that there are people who are used to telling the truth and having their friends tell them the truth and do not have a hostile bone in their body
    Jesus said such people were at a disadvantage with the snakes of this world

    besides, if someone thinks that ssm is not God’s best out of His love, you are asking that person to act contrary to his faith, you are asking the person to not act in love

    it is a lie that the fellow told kelly, the most basic tenant of Christianity is NOT love your neighbor as you love yourself,
    but love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength,

    One who loves God and thinks loving God means to believe the historic apostolic Christian faith as written in the NT, including Romans, thinks it is loving to tell someone that SSM is against God’s intentions and that the person should ask God for help. To tell someone that is to love someone as one would love oneself, to tell the truth as they see it.

    A person can disagree with that all they want, but to say such a person is necessarily acting out of hateful bigotry is just not true,

    but the truth is close to the last thing these people care about.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  58. 52. … But the really stupid thing was the timing…

    elissa (501dd9) — 4/1/2015 @ 6:35 pm

    Because the key to exposing yourself as a hate-mongering homophobe is always timing.

    There is, believe it or not, an appropriate time.

    It’s kinda like real estate. Location! Location! Location! or Timing!

    Sorry, elissa, I couldn’t resist.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  59. So, should all of the naive people just shut up and stay in their holes??

    Save myself, let the world go to hell.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  60. Thomas Sowell has often noted in his column that many black people are not content with equality; they want revenge, too.

    Judging by their ongoing quest to destroy anyone who does not share their mindset, I think it’s safe to say that most members of “the gay community” are also out for blood.

    BTW, I just made a donation at the GoFundMe web site, and I encourage all of you do the same.

    Whitey Nisson (79e3a8)

  61. The question is how much does it cost for professional security in small town Indiana.

    Maybe that “Market speaking” will work after all, I hope Kelly has that guy back to be asked about that.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  62. 57. Steve57, Sen Kirk has his faults. But he is not going to go out and torch pizzerias. Your credibility suffers in the same way the other side’s does when you spew crap.
    elissa (501dd9) — 4/1/2015 @ 6:48 pm

    Sister, please. I never suggested any such thing.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  63. One nice thing about living in small town German Catholic America is it does not support well emotionally, mentally, spiritually ill lifestyles.

    I guess you could say it’s just not robust enough to offer LGBTs an adequate reflection of their unique sophistications.

    You wanna be sick? Go nuts, we is busy surviving.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  64. MD., I understand these people. We had a simple summer cottage on a lake in Indiana for many years. I love the kind and wholesome and proud people of Indiana. Most are the salt of the earth and honest to a fault. I guess I don’t quite know why you are addressing the rest of the comment to me, unless you think my suggesting a little white lie to get a bully reporter and cameraman out the door is a mortal sin.

    elissa (501dd9)

  65. I know that no matter what my friend thinks of gay marriage (and I doubt he supports it) he would be thinking, “Let’s see, 20 large pizzas at $14 per, plus garlic bread at $3 per order, five large salads at $12 per. . . . “
    JVW (a1146f) — 4/1/2015 @ 6:21 pm

    That’s exactly the point. Jesus said one cannot love both God and mammon, make a choice.
    If one has no problem with SSM then there is no conflict in this regard,
    if one is firmly convinced that SSM is not what God intends and one should “speak the truth in love”,
    then being quiet in order to make money is a problem.

    If one just doesn’t like the idea of SSM for whatever, then they can do whatever.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  66. 63. ==Sister, please. I never suggested any such thing.==

    Brother, please see comment#43. Did someone else submit that in your name or did you just forget?

    elissa (501dd9)

  67. That’s exactly the point. Jesus said one cannot love both God and mammon, make a choice.

    You mean the “cha-ching” that comes with the catering jobs?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  68. Elissa,
    what I’m saying is that those folk didn’t even know a “little white lie” was necessary
    which is why I addressed it to you

    I’m sorry, only the first two phrases were directed to you,
    what came later was just added on as part of the discussion.

    but if “they” want to make it so no one dares utter a word anytime anywhere against the idea that SSM is equal to hetero marriage,
    then “they” have won.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  69. 67. I was observing the difference between rhetoric and reality, elissa.

    And yes I am your brother, sister.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  70. I kinda think the prob with SSM advocates have with Xianity is they want its imprimatur of godliness on their chosen lifestyle.

    As such they are quintessentially Proverbial Fools.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  71. 71. I kinda think the prob with SSM advocates have with Xianity is they want its imprimatur of godliness on their chosen lifestyle.

    As such they are quintessentially Proverbial Fools.

    DNF (9ddaea) — 4/1/2015 @ 7:12 pm

    You’re not the first to notice.

    Genesis 19:9

    “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

    When people know they are lying, that’s when they are most totalitarian about people adhering to the lie.

    See Naziism, Staliniism, Maoism, etc.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  72. DNF (9ddaea) — 4/1/2015 @ 7:12 pm

    Bingo!

    felipe (56556d)

  73. Steve57 (b69525) — 4/1/2015 @ 7:19 pm

    You beat me to it, Steve57. Dang, you’re good!

    felipe (56556d)

  74. Is the pizzeria in French Lick?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  75. It used to be that all sorts of people did things I didn’t approve of. Sometimes I complained, sometimes I changed someone’s behavior (their feelings, I don’t know; I sometimes behave in ways I don’t feel like, or later wish I hadn’t.) I minded my own business and got on with my life, as did others.

    Then the government starting compelling people to behave in ways that some approved of and others didn’t. Things that were about being butt-hurt, or being butt-hurt about others.

    Now, the mob is doing so.

    Right and wrong are not opposites, they’re perpendicular axes on a plane, ranging from not-right to right, and not-wrong to wrong. Sometimes a thing is both right and wrong, sometimes it’s neither. Legal and illegal are the same. Those corners of the planes where not-wrong and right, and not-illegal and legal, all intersect, are called “freedom”.

    It’s disappearing, if not gone.

    I’m depressed and we’re doomed.

    htom (4ca1fa)

  76. I wouldn’t say I’m good felipe. Just that I don’t kid myself about what I’m reading. I was going to read the Bible. I set myself a goal. I’m up to the Letters of Paul in the New Testament, and Judges in the Old Testament.

    And, boy, do I have a lot of work to do on myself!

    Steve57 (b69525)

  77. ==what I’m saying is that those folk didn’t even know a “little white lie” was necessary==

    I think in our sincere support of home town Indiana folk we must also be careful not to infantilize them or look at them as innocent pets. I’m not saying you did, MD, just using that comment as a jumping off point. In my experience most Indiana natives are neither stupid or out of touch with the world. They also understand the concept of fighting fire with fire when the need arises.

    elissa (501dd9)

  78. powerful stuff, Steve, one realizes from Romans on, Paul does not let anyone off easy,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  79. the reporters would harangue them till they got the right answer,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  80. elissa,
    maybe I’m just infantilizing myself, elissa
    as I generally assume people simply say or ask what they mean, not with an ulterior motive

    I don’t look at them as innocent pets,
    I look at them as people who have not learned to first assume everyone is a snake until proven otherwise.

    maybe that sounds like hyperbole, but I bet 100:1 I would have answered the same way and thought I was doing a good job trying to point out I was not being hateful but I did have beliefs that were different and that they were important enough to me to act on them

    and I guess I would have gotten into a bigger mess than I would have dreamed of

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  81. besides,
    people assured me that things like this would never happen and supporting legal recognition of gay marriage was nothing but a good thing

    Some I knew were lying to me, (few here, I think)
    others were hoping for the best.
    maybe some really didn’t think it would come to stuff like this
    just like those pizza people never thought it would come to this
    who was more naive, the pizza people or lawyers and doctors and such?

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  82. You’re so honest and forthright, MD. And decent. In case you are looking for a second career you would not make a good White House press secretary, I think. :)

    elissa (501dd9)

  83. Update: the GoFundMe stands at $36,500 as of this moment, so there’s a great chance they are going to hit the $50,000 mark tonight.

    JVW (a1146f)

  84. 79. powerful stuff, Steve, one realizes from Romans on, Paul does not let anyone off easy,
    narciso (ee1f88) — 4/1/2015 @ 7:34 pm

    If only we had what Pat advocates. A general Freedom Restoration Act, without which it doesn’t matter much. That’s the choice. Freedom or Idols.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  85. I am looking for a second career, but you’re right, that would be like “Liar, Liar” meets the “West Wing” or something.

    Left to myself I am a cowardly self-centered mess, but God answers prayer and wants better for us than we want for ourselves.

    that gofund me has over $36,000 in 5 hours (though i don’t know much about how it works)

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  86. I once heard someone promise, that a certain election, would make it ‘impossible to stay uninvolved’

    http://weaselzippers.us/219301-final-four-coaches-issue-statement-condemning-indianas-religious-freedom-law/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  87. too bad I’m not a wealthy alumnus who could show my displeasure by withholding my donations

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  88. Do the final four coaches have anything to say about a hs coach that wants to burn down the pizza joint?

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  89. surprisingly it isn’t their greatest concern,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  90. pizza never had a chance

    mg (31009b)

  91. Interesting thing about Daniels. I guess the president of a university isn’t about to make an appeal for religious tolerance unless it is for a non-Christian minority.
    It seems that there is a full scale press not just against this pizzeria but against the state of Indiana. Whether other states and the feds have similar laws or not seems to be beside the point. Whether humanly planned or not, it seems that a lot of heavy hitters from companies to states to the NCAA is poised to try to financially and PR intimidate Indiana back into line.

    As stated above, being allowed to slide down the path of one’s making is the worst judgement of all.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  92. There will be business opportunities when Walmart decides to leave.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  93. I hope the gaystapo overlook the missing transgendered bathrooms at the pizza parlor.

    mg (31009b)

  94. one cannot be a ‘consciencious objector’ in the Kulturkampf.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  95. At least the coach who advocated arson has been suspended. maybe all is not lost yet.

    http://www.elkharttruth.com/news/schools/2015/04/01/Concord-High-School-coach-suspended-over-Tweet-about-arson.html

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  96. Goddam… when the teachers aren’t screwing the young chilluns in their charge, they’re ordering them to burn businesses to the ground.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  97. The local ABC station absolutely went trolling for a fundamentalist business owner in its ADI (TV market). It’s owned by Weigel, based in Chicago. Walkerton, IN is a quintessential small Indiana farming community, just Southwest of South Bend. There is a very significant Amish community just a few miles to its East.

    Tonight, that station ran a follow-up. I think the anchor’s button’s were all but on the brink of exploding with pride as he introduced their follow-up “reporting.” The big deal was that owners surrounding the pizza place were alllll about getting on camera saying they would sell to anyone who had money to spend. Of course, no questions testing that policy e.g. selling to a KKK gathering, were offered.

    The truly pathetic, albeit not unexpected development today, is this pusillanimous statement by the Catholic Bishops of Indiana. During Holy Week, of all weeks, they run from their faith commanding them to demand adherence to Jesus’ admonishments to behave in very specific ways. These functionaries have run from the fight to allow them unfettered speech. This is the speech they choose:

    Notre Dame just won a huge certiori fight at SCOTUS. It wants to discriminate against women who want expanded reproductive health care. Yet, its Bishop, Rhodes, signs off on this garbage. On Holy Week.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  98. A high school coach was asking on Twitter: “Who’s going to Walkerton, IN to burn down #memoriespizza with me?

    I wouldn’t be surprised one iota if that type of person were the one caught acting inappropriately in front of students in the locker room or being the troop leader molesting a pack of Boy Scouts.

    Sorry, but the dynamics of “methinks he doth protest too much” should be kept in mind when a person is way too upset that homosexuals aren’t being given red-carpet treatment throughout society, particularly involving obscure situations like the hypothetical of a small pizza parlor catering a wedding.

    Mark (2c9d51)

  99. Adding…

    The GoFundMe is right at $40K at this moment.

    Also, in a heartening and most unexpected twist, the Walkerton Police Department has spent the day pursuing all manner of investigations against those who have threatened the owners. One officer was quoted as saying they have enough to charge one individual, and they will. More to come. They have also increased patrols and staffing tonight to protect the owners.

    In uniform, mind you, one cop stated flatly that they were totally siding with the owners rights to conduct their lives and their business in peace. I can not remember the last time I saw and heard such a thing in a cause the lefty anarchists were pursuing. There was none of this unequivocal talk in Ferguson, eh?

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  100. welp, that was helpful, specially the first part ratifying the narrative, there would be no Cardinal Mindzentzy’s or for that matter Anacleto Flores, in this bunch,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  101. on this point, trevor noah and our Dear leader are in agremment, bitter clinger to their religion, yadda yadda,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  102. “That stroke he had? It was caused by an embolus in his carotid because he was playing the suffocation game — the one that killed David Carradine.”

    nk (dbc370) — 4/1/2015 @ 6:35 pm

    No, Senator! You’re supposed to choke THE CHICKEN!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  103. I’m still hoping someone will pop up to inform me the whole Obama thing, from 2008 on, was an elaborate practical joke, and none of it was real. “GOTCHA!” they will say.

    And we’ll have a drink and laugh and laugh . . .

    Estragon (ada867)

  104. I wonder if the pizzeria was specifically targeted. I guess their decor and likely their Facebook page made it pretty clear that they were confessing Christians.

    and fwiw, I think the coach was female, women’s golf and assistant to other women’s sports, i think.

    Bigot in Philly (a sockpuppet not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  105. And JD, one of the people who I stopped following on Facebook is a native of Indiana who lives in New York City now. He had been going on and on about how he is so ashamed to be a Hoosier and he hates how rednecky his Indiana friends are and blah blah blah. He had something like eight different posts about this matter up until the time I stopped following. Naturally, he’s straight and married with two children, though his politics are impeccably leftwing.

    I wonder if he’d be thrilled if his children — in this hypothetical scenario, both of them being teenage males — were flirting with guys in high school? Would he say, “I just saw my dear son hugging and kissing his longtime male friend and it didn’t phase me in the least! I admire his different approach to life!” If so, why? If not, doesn’t that prove there’s something intrinsically off-putting about “gay”?

    Mark (2c9d51)

  106. Hang down yer head, Jess Dooley
    Hang down yer head and cry
    Hang down yer head Jess Dooley
    Rotate yer hips, on the ball keep yer eye

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  107. and fwiw, I think the coach was female, women’s golf and assistant to other women’s sports, i think

    The stereotype of female gym coaches and their likely sexuality does exist for a reason. IOW, that teacher’s response was probably — probably — due to her taking the response of the pizzeria very personally.

    Mark (2c9d51)

  108. She also coaches softball.

    Another thing that came out is that the pizzeria’s website was not hacked. It did not have a website. Some pervs put up a fake one. It’s all lies and fraud with these AIDS factories. This is going to fizzle out to a big nothing with the pizzeria owners ending up smelling like roses. But the theater people will keep trying, like an opportunistic infection.

    nk (dbc370)

  109. Wonder why the TV station did not go to the Amish community down the road and ask them these type of questions. I hope the GoFund reaches its goal. Not so much for the business itself as to show the IN gov’t people that those who speak loudest and out of ignorance are not always representative of the populace. Really disappointed at the college coaches – hopefully they will follow up and cancel all their trips to Texas and Florida.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  110. re #111: thanks nk, i was wondering about the reports of a hacked website. just didn’t make sense.

    How happy can Yelp be about this? doesn’t this destroy their business model?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  111. “There would have been a media storm over this law regardless. ”

    Hogwash. There has never been an uproar about the federal version, or aprox 20 state versions previously. This was a social media lynch mob. You will be made to care.

    JD (1ed1ad)

  112. nk–if someone/law enforcement can identify the person who put up the false website purporting to be the O’Connors’ are there charges that can be brought do you think, or might the Memories Pizza people have any basis to sue if they chose to?

    elissa (501dd9)

  113. Now, I’m wondering about pizza at a gay wedding. Would both “genders” want the pepperoni unsliced? Would the lesbians want anchovies or just the opposite — absolutely no anchovies?

    nk (dbc370)

  114. I suppose by this time that everyone knows this whole controversy is not about this or that law or this or that pizza restaurant.

    If I have to explain, I will. Stop taking the bait and concentrate on the problems.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  115. Anchovies, most certainly. A fishy smell is their favorite scent.

    Mark (2c9d51)

  116. I’m not up to speed on this subject, elissa. Internet fraud or protected parody? Here is a roundup of federal statutes. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/computer_and_internet_fraud

    nk (dbc370)

  117. JD– yes. That’s exactly what I meant. The mob was lying in wait for this to be passed and they had their narratives in place and ready to execute. Like Benghazi, this firestorm was not a “spontaneous reaction to a video” situation. There was going to be a media storm this time. The only question was what date. There were plenty of clues that certain groups were watching it and opining on it before the signing.

    elissa (501dd9)

  118. Trademark law? Both federal and state laws provide for criminal and civil actions for trademark violations.

    nk (dbc370)

  119. UPDATE x2: After 7 hours, the gofundme stands at over $45,000. That’s a lot of 12-inch pepperoni pies. Well, I guess the Social Justice Warriors have won — if by “winning” you mean “cause a business to earn in 7 hours what it probably would have earned in a good month, if not more.”

    Patterico (15be32)

  120. RU kidding Patterico? This is a small town. That may well be a year’s income for them.

    elissa (501dd9)

  121. The entire issue has been manufactured outrage based on lies. None of these people can point to one instance where RFRA has allowed discrimination against gays anywhere. Not even in regards to wedding ceremonies. The entire thing is a giant lie. Then you get companies trying to buy cheap grace jumping in, like Apple who has no problem doing business in China or Saudi Arabia, now condemning IN for a law that doesn’t do what they claim it does, and even if it did, pales in comparison to others they choose to do business with. Local companies claiming to disinvest that are losing money left and right, begging for taxpayer dollars, now claiming IN is a hotbed of bigots when they have been based here for years, and presumably never ran into said bigotry. Now other states are banning non-essential travel to IN, states that have the same damn law on the books? Did they also boycott the US as a whole when Schumer introduced this Bill, and Clinton signed it? The entire episode is B effin S. Meanwhile, Hillary continues to lie, Lerner given a pass, Iran is making us their beeyotch, and the MFM wants to ask small town pizza makers about non existent hypothetical gay wedding receptions featuring pizza. They can all go to hell.

    JD (1ed1ad)

  122. RU kidding Patterico? This is a small town. That may well be a year’s income for them.

    Good point, looking at the money as pure profit rather than gross sales (which is how I was improperly looking at it). I just did a quick search and found this link:

    I recently learned that a profit margin of 7 percent is the average for the pizzeria industry. . . . I just could not come to terms with this figure. If this statistic holds true, it means that a typical pizzeria that is doing $10,000 in sales per week for $520,000 in annual sales will only generate $36,400 in profit.

    So, $45,000 might be close to gross sales for a month or more, which is what I was thinking. But if they make a 7% profit margin, then you’re right. It could easily equal or exceed a year’s profits.

    Wow.

    Patterico (15be32)

  123. JD,

    We got you monologuing!

    Patterico (15be32)

  124. I ranted, huh?

    JD (1ed1ad)

  125. That’s the most words in a row I have seen from you in recent memory.

    Patterico (15be32)

  126. UPDATE x3: If we’re talking profit? $45,000 could be a year’s worth of profit for a place like this. Thanks to elissa for challenging my assumptions on this.

    Patterico (15be32)

  127. As infuriated as I am over the success the anarchists are currently enjoying, I am quite pleased that a dyed-in-the-wool RINO’s dreams of being POTUS have been crushed, albeit for ironic reasons. Gov. Pence is displaying the linguine spine careful observers have observed for decades and can’t now credibly cobble together a rationale for entering the race, given the perfectly good alternatives already in – Walker especially.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  128. JD – Don’t forget that Josh Earnest claims President Expiration Date said such laws are unthinkable in the 21st century. Friggin’ douchenozzle!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  129. How happy can Yelp be about this? doesn’t this destroy their business model?

    Yelp can very easily go in and erase every single review and comment that came in after March 30. Whether or not they choose to is another story, but here’s hoping that they do. A local business in my community was targeted by cyber-bullies who got together and trashed its ratings because they supported a controversial city initiative, and Yelp fixed their reviews for them.

    JVW (a1146f)

  130. JD – Don’t forget that Josh Earnest claims President Expiration Date said such laws are unthinkable in the 21st century. Friggin’ douchenozzle!

    No hypocrisy there: Obama voted for the protection of religious freedoms act in the Illinois Senate in 1998, so he’s absolutely correct: those laws were fine and dandy in the 20th century but are unthinkable in the 21st.

    JVW (a1146f)

  131. JVW – Correct, but the future does not belong to those who slander the Prophet Mohammad.

    Plus, would the left have exploded the same way if the pizzeria owners had been black? Raaaaacists!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  132. How happy can Yelp be about this? doesn’t this destroy their business model?

    They probably don’t care. See here on Amazon, where a major company’s product is hammered by Eco-freaks and 4,000 bogus reviews are untouched. You would think that Pepsi has asked Amazon to deal with it, and yet…

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  133. The really funny thing is that gays have more more legal protection in Indiana than smokers do. IF a business actually wanted to discriminate against them, there could have done so BEFORE this law went into effect. That the law gives defenses against something not actionable in Indiana is kind of moot.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  134. $48,000+ and more impressively , $35 mean average donation.

    but get a load of the comments on the page. freakin’ unbelievable. well , i guess it is believable.

    after reading a few them i’m left wondering – which gets the push to acceptance next, bestiality or incest?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  135. “That lifestyle is something they choose. I choose to be heterosexual. They choose to be homosexual. Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?” says Kevin O’Connor.

    This.

    Yes yes yes.

    If only Mr. Governor Pence were as forthright and articulate.

    happyfeet (831175)

  136. Did bisexuals make a choice or were they born double jeopardy.

    mg (31009b)

  137. brb i’m a refer to my discussion guide

    happyfeet (831175)

  138. I bet the chamber of commerce has a guide – right next to the amnesty guide.

    mg (31009b)

  139. This firestorm all to distract from Hilarity and JarJar and –

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-01/its-official-fed-sees-00-gdp-growth-first-quarter

    Embrace the suck, drink it in.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  140. After 1920s USSR, 1920s Italy, 1930s Germany, 1950s China, this surprises anyone why?

    ErisGuy (76f8a7)

  141. DNF – They lie, it’s much worse!!

    mg (31009b)

  142. $54,863 in the last 14 hours to support a business that contributes to obesity in lesbians, and meantime there are gay men all over the world who have no Vaseline.

    nk the social justice wanker (dbc370)

  143. ‘Allo, I’m-a Giuseppe, I got-a something special-a for you, ready?

    Uno, duo, tre, quatro

    When I was a boy, just about the eighth-a grade, Mama used to say don’t stay out-a late with the gay-a boys, always shoot-a straight-a, Giuseppe going to flunk-a school.

    Boy, it make-a me sick, all the t’ing I gotta do I can’t-a get-a no kicks, always got to follow rules.

    Boy, it make-a me sick, just to make-a lousy bucks.

    Got to feel-a like a fool and-a mama used to say all-a time.

    What’s-a matter you? Hey! Gotta no respect.
    What-a you t’ink you do? Why you look-a so sad?
    Girl-a not so bad, gotta pretty face.

    Ah, shaddap-a you gays!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  144. A couple of questions for clarification:

    1) Do we think part of the purpose of this law was indeed to protect a business (especially a family owned small business) from legal action if they declined to provide service for a gay wedding?
    I would assume so. So I am not sure how to characterize the charges levied by the activists and the media. I know that these laws have not yet actually protected a business, but I think that is more up to the judge involved than the law, yes?
    So, I think the dishonesty is claiming that a small business owner has no freedom to act according to their own conscience in such matters and equating it to the KKK.

    2) Do we think that the powers would have made a big fuss over someone, if not this pizzeria then they would have found someone else?

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  145. And a couple of thoughts:

    1) It seems no one is contesting the equating of being black and being gay anymore in the public discussion.

    2) It seems that some of the legal roots to this go way back. I read somewhere the claim that “there is no such thing as private property anymore” the moment one interacts economically with society. One is free to be left to do your own thing as long as you live in a cave by yourself, but the moment you go into public or let a member of the public into your home, then you have to live by government sanctioned behavior. Is this a semi-accurate description?
    hence the post about a “Freedom Restoration Act”.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  146. It seems no one is contesting the equating of being black and being gay anymore in the public discussion.

    Black people are. The latest, the black Presbyterian churches who broke away from Presbyterian Church USA.

    nk the social justice wanker (dbc370)

  147. Well, that’s good to hear, nk, but until it substantially decreases the percentage of blacks that vote Dem it will make little difference.

    If a few people in the great expanse do an action that is never acknowledged, did it make any difference?
    Well, of course for some it did, even if only in the life to come.

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  148. When was Indiana founded? When was Amazon founded? How did Hoosiers get along without Amazon for two centuries? You know that Alinsky thingie, power is not only what you have but also what you are perceived to have? Well, heck, everybody poker player knows that and other people are learning it too and calling the interior decorators’ bluffs.

    nk (dbc370)

  149. Is poker homophobic, BTW? Should it be changed to pokethem?

    nk (dbc370)

  150. Thanks for the link happyfeet. I will no longer use Amazon as I will not patronize Anti Christian haters.

    BTW did you notice this tid-bit in the article?:

    Governors of New York, Connecticut and Washington said they would ban state-funded travel of state employees to Indiana. Mayors of New York, San Francisco and Seattle said the same of city-paid travel to Indy.

    Do these governors realize they have made a declaration of civil war against a fellow state? Now the mayors of NY, SF and Seattle are as usual no more than leftist Christian haters so I expect that. I encourage every fair minded person to boycott those cities.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  151. I’m sick and tired of myself and my fellow Christians being persecuted for our religious beliefs. Nobody makes Amish or Quakers fight wars or Jews and moslems serve pork but it’s all-out on Christians because they know we won’t fight back. We founded this country and by damned we’ll rip it apart if this crap continues. Civil war my be our only earthly salvation with these dumbass leftists at the helm.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  152. Speaking of teh ghey H8, where is Gay Perry?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  153. Colonel, Perry isn’t gay. His problem is his mother and father were sister and brother.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  154. i’m not boycotting nobody in particular right now

    except in general i’m trying not to go to fast food places cause of i feel with the minimum wage being so high they’re probably cutting lots of corners on food quality

    so i only go to chik fil a anymore cause of they seem real nice and clean

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  155. i need amazon today cause of I have to take another run at this umbrella purchasing thing

    turns out the drizzle duck is just too big

    only fat ladies have 60 inch umbrellas in downtown chicago

    and doormen

    fat ladies and doormen

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  156. Is that Walgreens still on the NE corner of State and Randolph? Just drop in there. They should have a bunch this being the season for them. My local Jewel-Osco has a nice display up too.

    nk (dbc370)

  157. I don’t think the answer for Christians (or anyone) is to tell a “little white lie.” Little lies matter, too.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  158. And the GOP undue is at $96,567.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  159. I meant GoFundMe. It’s GOP if you have Autocorrect, which is funny because the GOP couldn’t care less about these people.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  160. yes yes is there

    i just have such little time anymore what with the commute and long days here at office – I been using amazon a lot and they’ve gotten just ridiculously fast about stuff

    i ordered one of those for reals doctor’s office scales where you do the slidey slide with the weights early tuesday and got it wednesday

    it truly is an age of wonders

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  161. Did bisexuals make a choice or were they born double jeopardy.

    Well…

    people.com, June 2011: In many ways, Fran Drescher and her ex-husband, Peter Marc Jacobson, might as well still be married. “We are very tight,” says the former star of The Nanny. Adds Jacobson: “We work together. Go out to eat. Travel together. I feel like I still have a wife.” There’s just one hitch: Jacobson is gay – a fact he revealed to Drescher two years after their 21-year marriage ended in 1999. “He got in touch with his true orientation,” she says matter-of-factly of her high school sweetheart. “I can’t blame him for that.”

    Figuring out their relationship has taken work. Jacobson confessed he might be bisexual some years into their marriage, but “he wanted to be together,” Drescher says, “and I didn’t want to punish him for being honest about his feelings.” And given their seemingly strong relationship (“We always thought we had a much better sex life than all of our friends,” she boasts), she ignored any potential red flags.

    For Jacobson, suppressing his instincts seemed like the only option. “I grew up in Flushing, Queens. You married at 21, had a big wedding in Great Neck and lived happily ever after,” he says. When he felt an attraction to men, “I buried my feelings.”

    Should all the guys who are non-monogamous by nature (ie, a high percentage of males) also bury their feelings? I guess not, since today’s liberal ethos (certainly among the GLBTers) is that humans should never suppress their inner instincts, That is, people should always bow to nature over nurture, nature over nuture, nature over nurture.

    Mark (2c9d51)

  162. Heh, DRJ! I only saw it in passing on Al Gore’s internets, but Cruz did give a speech yesterday(?) in support of additional freedom of religion laws. I say “additional”, because as we saw in the Hobby Lobby case RFRAs give us more rights than the Supreme Court does under the First Amendment.

    nk (dbc370)

  163. People are outraged that a business may, based on their religious beliefs, choose to not participate in an event that runs counter to those beliefs. But those same people have no outrage that a business may, based on nothing but “feelings”, may choose to exclude from their business another citizen who merely chooses to be self responsible and exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. I refer, of course, to the “No Guns Allowed” businesses.

    Loren (1e34f2)

  164. I find it amusing that the leftist dogs, the media, the professional victims, those Governors and mayors mentioned above and so many others are more interested in putting sanctions on Indiana than on Iraq. This is truly the Loony Left in full court press.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  165. Sorry, that was supposed to be Iran.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  166. Then we have the usual lying leftist hypocrites like Chuck Schumer who bitches about Indiana when he sponsored a bill in 1993 which has the exact same wording and intent.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  167. Good point, Loren.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  168. The mob was lying in wait for this to be passed and they had their narratives in place and ready to execute. Like Benghazi, this firestorm was not a “spontaneous reaction to a video” situation. There was going to be a media storm this time. The only question was what date. There were plenty of clues that certain groups were watching it and opining on it before the signing.

    I agree, Elissa, but Pence should not have gone on with Stephanopolous and rolled over like he did. He, like any other Republican, should know by now it is *always* going to be a gotcha moment and this be prepared. That these idiots are apparently still clueless less about about major media works, is unforgivable. How many lessons in this do they need (see Palin … Again) ? How many R’s need to get publicly slapped down because they did not understand that by appearing on these shows and doing interviews was going to be another intent-to-smear-and-misrepresent? Why can’t R’s figure out once and for all how this game works???

    So utterly and ridiculously clueless! Stop giving the left the farm already!

    Dana (769669)

  169. There should be required “Understanding How the MSM Will Eat You For Breakfast And Spit You Out For Lunch” training sessions to be repeatedly taken until the R’s figure it out. They cannot they should be so naive and foolish about it.

    Dana (769669)

  170. I don’t mind the press being all nasty. I just want them to be nonpartisan about it.

    Like that Governor in Connecticut who went, um, a bit histrionic about the Indiana bill. Turns out his own state has a law that has a much lower burden of proof. He’s hemming and hawing on Twitter about it.

    A good journalist would simply ask him to explain the differences, on camera.

    But…it’s all either “Clown Nose On, Clown Nose Off” or “that’s different.” And always, always, “Because shut up.”

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  171. Absolutely right, Simon Jester. We need a vigilant press, but what we have is a press that thinks it only has to be vigilant with conservatives.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  172. the Journolist can consolidated the hive mind that was merely kultursmog, this is ultimately why Luna Federation rebelled in 2076

    narciso (ee1f88)

  173. not a huge user of Amazon and not really a believer of boycotting boycotters.
    but boycotting boycotters who claim their target is boycotting? especially when the boycotter has no problem in taking money from their target?
    hmm, got to think about this.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  174. we have to do something about these internet mob attacks

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  175. 127,000 and change, at last count,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  176. re #173: not just CT, check out New York State.

    re #171: simple Dana – ego.

    About the MSM – have any of them gone into Amish or Muslim neighborhoods yet inquiring about the new law and how they would do business?

    i was not pleased with the way the law was done, but at this point i would really like Indiana to stick to its guns (heh) and tell everyone to look for all the lost gov’t emails.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  177. re #179 – how is the comment section going?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  178. relatively saner than most newspaper comment sections, not really saying much there,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  179. Simon Jester,

    A “pressing” press is a good thing. But we have press complicit with the Dems to destroy the R’s. And we all know this – except for the R’s in office. Why is that? An incoherent marriage of Naïveté and Arrogance: They won’t eat me alive! I can manipulate them!

    Dana (769669)

  180. Ima boycott Astroglide.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  181. I would boycott Angie’s List, but frankly since I’m no longer a member, that is problematic,
    I don’t buy Nikes,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  182. I was on the Penn & Teller FB page defending the Indiana law but the mob is in a Frenzy and on full attack mode. Roughly 9 out of 10 simply call me vulgar names or straight-out lie about the law and have no facts in front of them. They want no discussion.
    They are easily manipulated as ignorance is rampant among Liberal thugs regarding this bill.

    K9Ranger (1bcf6e)

  183. There was that issue from Rush about how only 10 people on twitter made it look like thousands

    of course, putting money where one’s mouth is perhaps better than a flock of twitter tweets, but then again, the impression of numbers counts
    this is “participation democracy” for the virtual age, he who shouts loudest on social media wins the day

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  184. It is not funny at all and not meant to be snarky, but it is interesting and poetic that tomorrow is the day we remember the mob yelling “crucify him”.

    Of course, it really happens elsewhere without the benefit of the mob,
    but my goodness, what a mob

    I hate to see what’s next if Pence and company cave on this

    MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  185. There is no press any longer Dana. They are all bent out of shape over a Hypothetical situation where a pizza parlor won’t cater a gay wedding. IT NEVER OCCURED! Yet Hillary gets a pass on Benghazi and her “lost” emails, Lois Lerner and Susan Rice walk after continued and proven lies, nobody asks that idiot Harry Reid what really happened to his face. But they’re all fired up over a law meant to protect a persons religious freedom even tough the feds and dozens of states already have the same law! This whole thing is a set-up to harm Christians, Republicans and conservatives and to cover over Obamas mishandling of Iran and the economy. When you have Cronkite and Rather making up stuff and Candy Crowley screwing a candidate in a debate, the press is dead.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  186. HUNTSVILLE, Ala. — A newly revised tattoo policy that will remove the limit on the number and size of soldiers’ tattoos is coming very soon, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno said Wednesday.

    in failmerica

    we are still free 2 be trashy

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  187. I decided not to boycott Amazon. Rather I will Discriminate against them in favor of another purveyor. Now sue me.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  188. “we are still free 2 be trashy”

    Mr. Feets – I thought that was obvious by the manufactured outrage directed at a small family owned pizzeria over a purely hypothetical situation which has never occurred. You are not right in the head.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  189. the pizza bigots are gonna get buckets of money Mr. daley

    like three years of profits or something

    they have many many thank you notes to write

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  190. i think i saw where thank you notes were on sale on amazon

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  191. “the pizza bigots are gonna get buckets of money Mr. daley”

    Mr. Feets – Look Squirrel!

    BURN THE HERETICS AND PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS FOR THOUGHT CRIMES!!!!!!

    Bless your heart for getting the fascist, faliamerica you were seeking.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  192. well the pattern has been the same from Tucson to Sanford to Ferguson, Benghazi was the overseas chapter,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  193. I wonder how long the Amazon purchase buttons will remain on some websites?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  194. I think Mr. Feets is as incapable of shame as President Pitchforks and Torches.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. Mr. Feets would it be any different if they refused to cater a KKK event because they are morally opposed to bigotry and hate as taught by Christianity?

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  196. So, the haters and Christianophobes are victorious!;

    Facing death threats and pressure from the pro-”gay marriage” movement, a family-owned pizza business in Indiana was forced to close its doors.

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/04/death-threats-force-christian-pizzeria-to-close/#skEIbQl64OFIBXYl.99

    The “tolerant” left will put anyone who disagrees out of business. Killing Christians or “re-educating” them can’t be far away.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  197. Changing my name once again for feets, just to make things clear.

    I wonder how long the Amazon purchase buttons will remain on some websites?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/2/2015 @ 10:29 am

    That’s a point.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  198. CROWD: A pizzeria! A pizzeria! A pizzeria! We’ve got a pizzeria! A pizzeria!
    Golf Coach: We have found a pizzeria, might we burn it?
    CROWD: Burn it! Burn!
    HAPPYFEET: How do you know it’s a bigoted pizzeria?
    AMAZON SPOKESPERSON: It looks like one.
    HAPPYFEET: Let’s have a look..
    PIZZERIA OWNERS: We’re not a bigoted pizzeria. We have religious principles and the right to follow them..
    HAPPYFEET: But you won’t cater a gay wedding.
    PIZZERIA OWNERS: Doing that would be acting contrary to our religious principles.
    CROWD: But… but… BECAUSE NO CATERING AT A GAY WEDDING!
    PIZZERIA OWNERS: The participants would be welcome to visit our establishment and eat all the pizza they want.
    HAPPYFEET: Well?
    VILLAGER #1: Well… there IS supposed to be religious freedom in this nation…
    HAPPYFEET: Religious freedom?
    VILLAGER #2: And the pizza is delicious…
    CROWD: Burn it! bigoted pizzeria! burn the bigoted pizzeria! Burn it!
    .

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  199. I hate to see what’s next if Pence and company cave on this.

    The left, especially the Social Justice Warriors, have the attention span of kittens. All Indiana has to do is ride out a few days of negative publicity, and vast majority of Americans are going to move on to something else. All my friends who were in a tizzy over this on Facebook on Monday and Tuesday have now calmed the f*** down and gone back to discussing the Kardashians and House of Cards.

    And it looks like they may have found a way to keep the completely vapid Ashley Judd away from the Final Four, so let me take this opportunity to extend a hearty thank you to the people of the Hoosier state.

    JVW (a1146f)

  200. Over 200 K,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  201. this idea that delivering pizza to a wedding reception is some kind of religious experience

    it’s just goofy Mr. Colonel

    god bless america

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  202. The idea that answering a question is some sort of crime punishable by death is just goofy.

    felipe (56556d)

  203. I just dropped a few coins for the pizza crew. I find an odd similarity between this and at least one other ‘narrative’ campaign: I wasn’t for Geo. Zimmerman as much as I was against Al Sharpton and the gun grabbers. Similarly, the pizza people may be outright bigots – I don’t know – but I’d rather support an honest bigot than let the SJW cretins run amok.

    $205,460 as of now. And the fact that this total will make the moonbats go bonkers is all the thanks I need…

    Beasts of England (e61a11)

  204. 191. …in failmerica

    we are still free 2 be trashy

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 4/2/2015 @ 9:34 am

    How could we forget, with you to remind us.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  205. Of course when that is all you’re free to do, then you are no longer free.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  206. shouldn’t there be like an update or something

    looks like Mr. Governor Pence fixed the law to where everyone’s happy again

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  207. oh. Except Angie’s List is still really not at all happy.

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  208. UPDATE x4: At 12:09 p.m., less than 24 hours after the GoFundMe campaign started, the money stands at over $210,000. That’s probably years’ worth of profits for this business.

    It’s nice that people are standing up for freedom, but Mandy Nagy’s GoFundMe stands at about $31,000, and I think she did at least as much as this pizza place to stand up for freedom — and Mandy needs the help more. If you are looking to donate to freedom today, why not donate to Mandy?

    Patterico (15be32)

  209. The witching hour is tending toward peak stupidity. Look for mass demos of Darwinian inconsequence.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  210. JVW (a1146f) — 4/2/2015 @ 11:18 am

    The hard cores have a long memory and are very patient. It was before the 2004 election that SSM advocates were pushed back on laws across the nation and increased voter turnout helping Bush win.
    There were “Amish for Bush” groups in Ohio and PA mobilized largely because of the SSM issue.

    They don’t give up, they just morph their tactics as Billy Ayers will tell you.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  211. 210.this idea that delivering pizza to a wedding reception is some kind of religious experience it’s just goofy Mr. Colonel

    I don’t recall anyone, anywhere stating it was a religious experience, do you happyfeet? They stated it went against their religious beliefs. Pleases try and remember: IT NEVER HAPPENED. IT WAS HYPOTHETICAL!

    And unless you’re e.e.cummings or retarded it’s God bless America. That’s what those “Shift” keys are for.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  212. It’s nice that people are standing up for freedom, but Mandy Nagy’s GoFundMe stands at about $31,000, and I think she did at least as much as this pizza place to stand up for freedom — and Mandy needs the help more. If you are looking to donate to freedom today, why not donate to Mandy?

    And Mandy wrote me a very sweet thank-you note when I donated earlier, so she’s obviously a class act. I’ll kick in a few more bucks to her.

    By the way, I’m not too pleased with the rumors that Memories Pizza might close its doors and move out of town. I don’t ever want anyone to subject themselves to undue risk of harm, but after the outpouring of support (especially financial support) for the pizzeria I don’t think it’s entirely unfair to say that they have an obligation to stay where they are and fight the good fight. I would bet they have lots of support within the town too, so I think they need to carry on serving pizza and staying strong in their faith.

    JVW (a1146f)

  213. And Mandy wrote me a very sweet thank-you note when I donated earlier, so she’s obviously a class act. I’ll kick in a few more bucks to her.

    That might have been her mom.

    Patterico (15be32)

  214. I think if they used the money to relocate it would be reasonable, myself. The money is to support them, not the cause.
    The rumors about leaving town started before the GoFundMe project started. I can’t blame people for being disturbed by death threats.

    But we are at a distance too far to know details for sure.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  215. That might have been her mom.

    Yeah, you’re right: it probably was. Now that I think about it, I think it did thank me on behalf of Mandy.

    JVW (a1146f)

  216. I donated $50 and assumed it was to help them relocate and start a new business and life as far away from the anti Christian bigots they can get. They are under no obligation to stay in a town where they and their children are under death threats. It’s amusing that if a gay were treated like this the perps would be arrested for hate crimes, but do it to a Christian and it’s just fine. This country sucks any more with these self-righteous, promos a-holes on the left.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  217. I don’t ever want anyone to subject themselves to undue risk of harm, but after the outpouring of support (especially financial support) for the pizzeria I don’t think it’s entirely unfair to say that they have an obligation to stay where they are and fight the good fight.

    I think the pizzeria owners should feel free to stay or relocate. They’ve already stood up for what they believe. I think the outpouring of support was for what they’ve already endured, not to ask them to keep enduring it in the future.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  218. Monica Lewinsky is just now starting to get her life back

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  219. These poor people suffered more vitriol, hate , bullying and vulgarities than Zimmerman and they did NOTHING. It was all hypothetical. At least Zimmerman shot the guy. They should get far away from these hateful bigots before some fool fire bombs their pizzeria.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  220. 227. Monica Lewinsky is just now starting to get her life back

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 4/2/2015 @ 1:34 pm

    No thanks to you.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  221. Mr. Hoagie you know with some of that money they getting these pizza people can probably book dozens and dozens of therapy dog sessions to where the healing is gonna be really fast in this case

    and PTL I say

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  222. Jess remember when obliged to shoot don’t dink around, no survivors.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  223. Wow. Just wow.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  224. You ever been involved in a shooting, DNF?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  225. good question about the pizzeria. see the link above ,

    http://patterico.com/2015/04/01/internet-mob-attacks-indiana-pizza-place-for-saying-it-would-not-cater-a-gay-wedding/#comment-1753069

    should they stay where they are not wanted by their own Representative?

    seeRpea (181740)

  226. sweet mother of clotty-headed uselessness

    “I am confident from my conversation with Loretta Lynch that she will be a valuable partner in confronting the gang violence that is robbing families of their children every day in Chicago,” Kirk, a senator from Illinois, said in a statement.

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  227. sweet mother of clotty-headed uselessness

    Thanks. That pretty much sums up everything you say.

    Got a link you’d care to share?

    Didn’t think so.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  228. should they stay where they are not wanted by their own Representative?

    My God, would you let some low-rent state politician push you out of your business? The issue should be if the representative is wanted by his own citizens, not the other way around.

    JVW (a1146f)

  229. I think the pizzeria owners should feel free to stay or relocate. They’ve already stood up for what they believe. I think the outpouring of support was for what they’ve already endured, not to ask them to keep enduring it in the future.

    I guess that my problem is that if the pizzeria owners leave town, then the bullies will feel that they have won. Maybe it’s not a deserved victory, but it will be spun as one nevertheless: “Remember when we chased those horrible anti-gay pizza folks right out of town?” It will set a bad precedent.

    JVW (a1146f)

  230. i don’t always like linking stuff if it’s from an unsavory source like National Soros Radio or the Associated Press

    it just doesn’t feel good

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  231. I think the bigger issue is what the gov and others do, not this family.

    If the family stays but the state rewrites the bill so that no SS couple need ever fear being turned down for services, is that a win for proponents of freedom?

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  232. Mr. Dr. Team R just has to keep fighting until the gay people know they can’t just expect businesses to serve them

    it may not happen this year

    or next year

    or the year after that

    or for a really long time

    but maybe after a really long time the tide will turn

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  233. feets,
    your distortions and persistent feigned ignorance do not warrant any further response

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  234. I’ve been boycotting Macy’s for almost 10 years. Ever since they moved in and killed iconic Marshall Fields. Haven’t spent a penny there, since. The boycott is for me. I know it won’t make a whit of difference to Macy’s in terms of them feeling punishment or to their bottom line either, and I know now that Fields isn’t ever coming back. But it makes me feel good that I can perform this ongoing conscious little act of retaliation about a situation where I was, and still am, mad as hell but otherwise felt powerless and voiceless.

    In Indiana this week the big companies which are threatening “boycotts” or threatening to leave the state, are just pounding their chests to exert leverage and it’s working. But they’re not going to leave Indiana. The other state governors who say they are banning “non-essential” government travel (whatever that is) to Indiana? Meh. They are playing to their own constituents. For individuals who decide to boycott Apple or Amazon or Walmart or Angie’s list I say go for it. I guarantee it will make you feel better–like you are at least doing doing something tangible when it feels like we are losing control over so much in our lives that we always took for granted. But as you do it, be aware that the effect on the bottom lines of these companies will be zilch.

    elissa (acc2fe)

  235. the feigned ignorance i think is among the people who would have us believe the man what said this

    “That lifestyle is something they choose. I choose to be heterosexual. They choose to be homosexual. Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?”

    isn’t a filthy bigot

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  236. Call me Ignorant Bigot in Philly

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  237. The MSM really went nuclear on this. World war. My daughter just got back from Paris and it was one of the five stories repeated every ten minutes on the English-language news channel. The other four were … wait for it … the Iran talks, the Germanwings crash, the Nigerian election, and Greece. I don’t think it was just because she was staying at the Left Bank.

    And according to Rhodes radio, the Indiana legislature has already caved and emasculated the bill, and Spence will likely sign the new version. A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing in the end. On the other hand, you don’t lose what you never had in the first place.

    nk (dbc370)

  238. And according to Rhodes radio, the Indiana legislature has already caved and emasculated the bill, and Spence will likely sign the new version. A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing in the end.

    I’m not sure why you say that it signifies nothing. If they truly emasculated the bill so that the pizzeria in question can be made to serve at a SS wedding just for spite, then hasn’t meaningful religious freedom been lost?

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  239. No. Legislatures cannot take away religious freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment. They can only add to them. Indianans still have the same rights they had before this bill was a gleam in the respective legislators’ parents’ milkman’s eye.

    nk (dbc370)

  240. 243- elissa
    I truly respect you for personal boycotts.

    mg (31009b)

  241. Hot air has the language of the new legislation and a decent discussion:

    Lost in most of the bitter debate over the RFRA law was the fact that Indiana doesn’t have a statewide public-accommodation law that covers sexual orientation. Gabriel Malor has spent the past week pointing out that this is the problem in Indiana’s laws, not the RFRA law that was just passed. RFRA does not allow for broad discrimination, but the lack of a public-accommodation law might, if people were inclined to conduct that kind of broad discrimination.

    That puts the nonsensical rage over the RFRA bill in its proper perspective. No one in Indiana was pursuing that kind of discrimination before, during, or since the passage of the RFRA bill, even though it would have been legal in some parts of the state (some local jurisdictions have public-accommodation laws covering sexual orientation). No one was going to do it under RFRA either. RFRA, as has been exhaustively pointed out based on more than 20 years’ jurisprudence with these laws, doesn’t undo public-accommodation laws to excuse broad discrimination.

    This, however, isn’t quite a public accommodation law. The legislation will make clear that RFRA can’t undo public accommodation laws where they exist in Indiana, but … that’s it. And that would almost certainly have been the case in court anyway; courts have never allowed RFRA defenses for broad discrimination. The actual issue in Indiana remains, as Gabriel explained, in the lack of a statewide public accommodation law, not the protection of religious expression from state mandated actions.

    You may recall that I and others here have been talking about the fact that Public Accommodation legislation dealing with sexual orientation in many other states works tangentially with their RFRA to create “the law” and this is a main reason many of the other states were not getting the same heat and publicity. Indiana does not have a statewide public-accommodations act re: sexual orientation. The fix till does not give them one.

    The fix will satisfy some and already has not satisfied others. But what I guess I don’t completely get is, since unlike other states Indiana has been going for years and years without enacting a RFRA– and unlike some other states it has not enacted public-accommodations law around sexual orientation either–then what exactly was the reason or catalyst for them passing this legislation right now? What are they trying to do or undo? Can JD or anybody with knowledge of Indiana shed more light on this?

    http://hotair.com/archives/2015/04/02/indiana-rfra-fix-a-de-facto-public-accommodation-law/

    elissa (acc2fe)

  242. Home rule. Local communities, like say Aspen, Colorado or Sonoma, Arizona, could pass gay accommodation ordinances. A statewide RFRA which preempts local ordinances would provide a defense, whereas the Colorado constitutional amendment specifically forbidding such gay rights ordinances was struck down in Romer v. Evans.

    nk (dbc370)

  243. You ever been involved in a shooting, DNF?

    Steve57 (b69525) — 4/2/2015 @ 1:55 pm

    he shot his own mama daid…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  244. that’s a real headscratcher

    happyfeet (ce0337)

  245. nk and elissa,

    pardon my lack of legal nuance,
    it seems to me that the bottom line issue is clear:

    some people, even some of those more fair minded that are fine with SSW,
    think a small business should be able to decline to provide services for an event that is in conflict with their deeply held religious beliefs,
    and perhaps should not only be able to legally,
    but should not incur the wrath of whoever for doing so

    others think that such a stand is evil and wicked and akin to the klan
    and not only should it not be allowed legally,
    but even if it was allowed legally, people should be shamed and harassed into submission

    and no matter what this law would have allowed or not, if Indiana ends up doing something that says,
    “You’re right, those folks have no right to say no. Stomp, stomp on them I say”,
    it will communicate the message that yes, anyone who thinks they can say no to being involved in a ssw has no legal standing and they are terrible and no jurisdiction should even think of putting up with such people

    Alinsky success, demonized and marginalized for believing what was considered normal 7 years ago.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  246. If it was me, rather that bring up the point about no public accommodation law,
    I would assume it is only a matter of time before such a law is made or the demonization of those opposing it happens,
    so maybe the few like-minded bigots who would like Joe’s bakery not have to be forced to comply thought this was a way to try to protect Joe and his family of bigots in their business

    and everyone says, “NO, no, we will not let Joe and his family bigot bakery find a way to get away with their klan-like bigotry”, whether this law would actually change anything or not,

    and after we’ve made this mess, how do you think anyone would dare stand in the way of a SS accommodation law.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  247. From Twitchy:

    Not content with trying to destroy the family that owns Memories Pizza, the rabid left is also going after the man who started the GoFundMe account to benefit the family. Among other things, those super-tolerant supporters of “the gay community” have threatened the man and his family with violence.

    In the meantime, GoFundMe has raised $270,000 (and counting) for the family.

    Whitey Nisson (79e3a8)

  248. Mr. Dr. Team R just has to keep fighting until the gay people know they can’t just expect businesses to serve them…

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 4/2/2015 @ 2:35 pm

    It’s not about gay people. It’s about who is God/god.

    Obama is a jealous god. He will not permit you to have other gods before him.

    If you’re comfortable with that tyranny, then say so, feets. Quite hiding behind some Indiana pizzeria that never did nothing to nobody.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  249. 256. …Among other things, those super-tolerant supporters of “the gay community” have threatened the man and his family with violence…

    Whitey Nisson (79e3a8) — 4/2/2015 @ 4:22 pm

    This is good. Not for the family, obviously. But overall.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  250. Oregon etc. v. Smith started it all. Scalia wrote that the First Amendment Exercise Clause did not protect sacramental (some say “shamanistic”) peyote, illegal under federal and Oregon law. Congress responded with the federal RFRA. SCOTUS said the federal RFRA can limit the power of the federal government (like it did in the Hobby Lobby case) but not the Tenth Amendment powers of state governments — only the First Amendment as interpreted by SCOTUS can do that. Some states enacted their own RFRAs to limit their power over their citizens’ religious freedoms to a greater extent than the First Amendment, as interpreted by SCOTUS, says it can. So, if you’re arrested for using peyote in an RFRA state Manitou is a defense where Timothy Leary is not.

    Now, Indiana may not make it illegal to discriminate against gays statewide, but there may be communities who do under their home rule powers. (I believe Oak Park had a “human rights” ordinance before all of Illinois did, for example.) A business owner in one of those communities could be sued, fined or jailed for violating the ordinance. An RFRA would provide a defense if he said “it violates my religious beliefs” but not if he said “homosexuals turn my stomach”.

    Helps?

    nk (dbc370)

  251. 233. No, as I was unarmed I had to go quietly.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  252. . . . the rabid left is also going after the man who started the GoFundMe account to benefit the family. Among other things, those super-tolerant supporters of “the gay community” have threatened the man and his family with violence.

    I wonder how many of them are using the “Report This Campaign” button to accuse it of fraud.

    And from the looks of things, the guy who started this campaign is black. Could this be yet another manifestation of the phenomenon of RRAAAYY-cism among gays?

    JVW (a1146f)

  253. i don’t agree Mr. 57

    and i don’t believe in discriminating against people

    so these pizza people

    their problems are not my problems

    their problems are the kind of problems people have when they do prejudice on people

    an di got my own problems brother

    but we all in God’s hands

    he got the little bitty baby in his hands

    he got the grieving One Direction fans in his hands

    he got the Jews Iran’s about to nuke in his hands

    he got gay married people in his hands

    he got you and me brother in his hands

    he got the whole whirl in his hands

    happyfeet (831175)

  254. *and* i got my own problems I mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  255. MD–Of course they should not be “shamed and harassed into submission”. Your position is principled and most of us agree with it. But consider that how flying monkeys behave and fling poo is not usually directly countered by the law, or good citizenship as we once understood it, or the founding principles, or reason. I wonder if maybe you are overly-optimistic about what the effects of the Indiana RFRA law as it was signed last week could have been-and how much protection of religious freedom it offered once cases actually started hitting the courts.

    elissa (acc2fe)

  256. 263. *and* i got my own problems I mean
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/2/2015 @ 4:55 pm

    Obviously.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  257. that was trenchant, what you said Mr. 57

    happyfeet (831175)

  258. You have to admit that the rabid left, but I repeat myself, are very good at beating up on Christian folks but at the same time getting everyone to believe that they themselves are the victims of some diabolical evil. Very clever, and rather too easy with a willing press.

    Gazzer (0f428c)

  259. ==An RFRA would provide a defense if he said “it violates my religious beliefs” but not if he said “homosexuals turn my stomach”.==

    nk, Is it not more accurate to say “may provide a possible defense if he said ‘it violates my religious beliefs’….”? Playing that card is not a slam dunk, is it?

    elissa (acc2fe)

  260. I wasn’t necessarily optimistic at all about anything coming to the aid of Joe the baker who would like to decline being part of a SSW,
    but I, even I, have been surprised by the vehemence of the recent events such that mayors and governors and NCAA officials want to economically and socially marginalize Indiana as if turning down a request for a wedding cake (or pizza for a reception) is among the top 3 human rights violations in the world today.

    So for me it is really not about this specific law, it is about further marginalizing anybody who dares to say they believe what the Bible says and actually wants to live by it.
    Pity the poor child in a public high school that is not in complete agreement with the PC police, it will be far worse than wearing a Romney T-shirt in a “democratic” public high school in Philly.

    In some ways the big deal isn’t for historic apostolic Christians, as we’re told that the world would hate us,
    but the rest of the nation that thought we were civilized (if a civilized society could want live born children killed after a “failed” abortion) is going to have that myth exploded pretty soon.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  261. How about “can be pleaded as a defense”? Asserted? Raised? Argued? Claimed? Put forth? 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  262. re #259: ooh, do I remember when that decision came down. there was a lot of gnashing of teeth among lots of religious people. but iirc, the post over simplified a bit too much. There was something in the language of the ruling that made it clear that things like ceremonial drinking of wine by underage kids was not something that could be banned.
    this was one of those decisions that had opinion on the conservative side of the American political spectrum split a bit. As is, it should be noted, the whole idea of the RFRA on the Fed and State level.
    If Indiana cleaned up the language/ might it less ambiguous than good. Lets hope the pizza place owners and the person who started the goFund (i believe he is black , no? the irony of the left calling for a lynch mob of the guy) make it through the whole mess with life , liberty and integrity intact.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  263. you the lawyer, nk! :)

    elissa (acc2fe)

  264. Maybe a Christian bikers club with mean-looking ex cons with big mean tattoos will make them a favorite hangout.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  265. It’s not like we haven’t seen this movie before:

    http://christiancadre.org/member_contrib/cp_infanticide.html

    DNF (9ddaea)

  266. Maybe a Christian bikers club with mean-looking ex cons with big mean tattoos will make them a favorite hangout.

    Oooh, rough trade!

    the ironic nk (dbc370)

  267. “their problems are the kind of problems people have when they do prejudice on people”

    Mr. Feets – Praise Jesus we have the Thought Police to set people right when they stray in fascist, failamerica, home of intolerance and uniformity of opinion.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  268. Keep a super sharp eye out for the quick acceptance of this salve the Indiana legislature fashioned. There were a ton of advocates who shouted that the Indiana civil rights laws themselves needed alteration and that nothing short of that would be satisfactory.

    But, the NCAA, which saw what was coming and got right in front of it, realizes the no-win they are in and declared the “fix” suitable and has accepted it. This, despite the fact that the behavior outlined by the owner of the pizza place was not, in any way, proscribed. Remarkably, the other usual suspects in Indiana have decided to declare victory and move on. Why?

    I’ll tell you why. The worm was turning against them and they knew it. A slumbering giant of a silent majority was emerging from its collective hibernation. The NCAA was playing a pure PR game to fend off the anarchists and boy, were they smart to do so. The core agitators knew they were operating on thin gruel and are getting out while the getting is good.

    Thanks for nothing, Pence. Had you shown a pair, you could have led a major cultural victory. It might well have been a watershed. Coward.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  269. Not a rough trade, nk. Christians of the pizzeria variety get along real well with people who realize they were once mean sob’s who have had their lives changed.
    it’s those folk who go about preening because they “know” they are better than such ignorant simpletons that give us trouble

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  270. failmerica is failmerica precisely because it’s debased Mr. daley

    like how christians are debasing christianity by enshrining hatred as noble and showering it with internet fun money

    like how the military is debasing the armed services by enlisting a bunch of tatted up trash

    it’s debasement all the way around

    failmerica isn’t just a slogan it’s a way of life with you people

    happyfeet (831175)

  271. “But consider that how flying monkeys behave and fling poo is not usually directly countered by the law,…”

    Man, elissa, what did I miss!?!?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  272. It’s a diversion from the Iran deal announcements. Well played, Mr. Minus Touch. You’ll probably live to regret those.

    htom (4ca1fa)

  273. you people

    Heh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  274. yes you people

    you ones who think this is the hill now is the time

    and for the dumbest crap

    i need a lawn for so you can get off of it

    happyfeet (831175)

  275. feets,
    your distortions and persistent feigned ignorance do not warrant any further response

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/2/2015 @ 2:43 pm

    He’s good at that isn’t he? He’s in Obama’s class.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  276. bosh and pickles this world is a trip I don’t even know what’s going on these days I got this person over here talking about me, this person

    hey listen pickleheads lemme tell you something

    this is my prerogative I can do what I wanna do

    happyfeet (831175)

  277. no, YOU listen up, peckerhead. Enuf is enough.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  278. like how christians are debasing christianity by enshrining hatred as noble and showering it with internet fun money

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/2/2015 @ 5:35 pm

    “Showering” someone with $18k after they got their business shut down for answering a question honestly sure is debasing christianity says our little Orwell.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  279. omg are you pulling rank on me

    happyfeet (831175)

  280. i’m confuzzled about the 18k number

    happyfeet (831175)

  281. ==Man, elissa, what did I miss!?!?

    Uh, the last five days of gaystapo and their friends action in and about Indiana? I could have gone with a jackal or hyena theme but tonight I just kind of felt like the poo flinging monkey images were appropriate.

    elissa (acc2fe)

  282. 279. “Debasing Christianity by enshrining hatred”

    You might have buggered yourself right there, Lone Ranger.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  283. nttawwt

    happyfeet (831175)

  284. Yeah, it’s over $300,000 now. they have money to live, keep the business open, hire security

    I’ve seen scrolled at Fox that Indiana now has a law that explicitly says no one can use it to deny service at a gay wedding and that sexual orientation now is a protected class,
    in other words, what might have been the intent of the bill is now 180 degrees opposite

    I guess we’ll see if that is really what happened

    So it seems that there is a significant grassroots support yet the gov rolls over and sells out their constituents. That’s the way it seems anyway, until we see more.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  285. The whole of OT, the scripture used in the NT, maintains that a Holy God detests worship of other gods, and particularly so in His own house.

    You know nothing whereof you speak.

    DNF (9ddaea)

  286. Nice spine Mr Pence.

    Gazzer (0f428c)

  287. the worldly nk (dbc370) — 4/2/2015 @ 5:51 pm

    It took me quite a while to figure that out, nk.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  288. 291. … I could have gone with a jackal or hyena theme but tonight I just kind of felt like the poo flinging monkey images were appropriate.

    elissa (acc2fe) — 4/2/2015 @ 6:06 pm

    I was reflecting on the fact that you give me all sorts of respect that I certainly don’t deserve.

    This amply reminded me of it.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  289. happy feet,

    I’m disappointed in you and how much less for liberty you are than I thought.

    Dana (109251)

  290. “this is my prerogative I can do what I wanna do
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/2/2015 @ 5:59 pm”

    I advise you to never own a bakery in Indiana.

    kaf (f9e136)

  291. Sweet Jaysus, if he did, he’d be baking Thai tofu cupcakes or some such monstrosities…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  292. the feigned ignorance i think is among the people who would have us believe the man what said this

    “That lifestyle is something they choose. I choose to be heterosexual. They choose to be homosexual. Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?”

    isn’t a filthy bigot
    happyfeet (a037ad) — 4/2/2015 @ 2:51 pm

    Oh, spare us, happyfeet. Then again, the purposefully goofy way you often express yourself here means you don’t really expect or want to be taken seriously. So your shtick of impersonating (or being?) an outraged homosexual (or whatever Clive Davis is) has to be taken for what it’s worth—which (as is the case with any liberal loony) isn’t much.

    theguardian.com, February 2013: Clive Davis has come out as bisexual. The 80-year-old music mogul revealed his sexuality in a new memoir, saying that following half a century of relationships with women, he is now the long-term partner of another man.

    Although “coming-out” stories have become more common in the music business, Davis is noteworthy as one of the industry’s best-known executives – a quintessential old white guy. Davis has steered labels such as Columbia, Arista, BMG and Sony since the late 60s, signing artists such as Janis Joplin, Bruce Springsteen, Notorious BIG and Kelly Clarkson. He was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2000.

    In his new book, The Soundtrack of My Life, Davis recalls that his first time having sex with a man was during “the era of Studio 54″, when he was married to his second wife, Janet Adelberg. “On this night, after imbibing enough alcohol, I was open to responding to his sexual overtures,” Davis wrote. “Was I nervous? Absolutely. Did the heavens open up? No. But it was satisfying.” The experience prompted a period of “soul searching and self-analysis”, and after separating from Adelberg in 1985 Davis dated partners of both sexes. Since 1990, both of his long-term relationships have been with men.

    “You don’t have to be only one thing or another,” Davis said in an interview with US chat show host Katie Couric. “I opened myself up to the possibility that I could have a relationship with a man as well as the two that I had with a woman.” In another chat, with Nightline, Davis complained that bisexuality is “maligned and misunderstood”. “For over 50 years I never had sex with a male,” he said. “It wasn’t repressed. I had very good sexual relationships with women.”

    Mark (5a635c)

  293. Well, thank goodness Miley Cyrus has finally weighed in.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/politics/miley-cyrus-tom-cotton-arkansas-religious-freedom/index.html

    elissa (acc2fe)

  294. “He’s good at that isn’t he? He’s in Obama’s class.”

    Gerald A. – I think Mr. Feets is the person who puts the strawmen and false choices in President Empty Suit Lying Liar’s speeches, so you people are on notice.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  295. “you ones who think this is the hill now is the time”

    Mr. Feets – I thought that was the internet mob. As usual you have everything bass ackwards.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  296. You know, I had predicted that many of the posts and posters in this thread would be the way they turned out. Oh well.

    But this is Patterico’s “electronic party,” not mine, and we are all guests.

    For the most part, folks disagree respectfully with one another. Other folks like to mix it up. Still others just emit snark and move on. There is nothing wrong with the last two things, though they are not my cup of internet tea.

    But I really and truly appreciate the people who have politely advanced their own points of view in this thread. I have learned a lot from them, and I thank Patterico for providing a forum to see such posts by diverse people whom I have come to know electronically.

    It does get noisy at this party, sometimes, and even unpleasant. But there is much to be valued in the majority of the discussion. Thank you, all.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  297. Welcome to the Tehran Pizza Hut… http://t.co/ygQzkF5JgK

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  298. “You know, I had predicted that many of the posts and posters in this thread would be the way they turned out. Oh well.”

    Simon – We got misinformed media, governors and CEOs freaking out over hypothetical events but Mr. Feets blames Republicans.

    Do any liberals believe in freedom of religion anymore?

    Did I miss an amendment to the constitution some time in the past 20 years eliminating it?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  299. 301.
    Do not tempt him,Colonel!

    Meanwhile the ultimate absurdity seems to have escaped everyone.
    What couple, gay or straight, would be so tacky as to make their wedding reception a pizza party?

    kishnevi (adea75)

  300. Daley, I see stuff like this on campus all the time, of course. And my FB feed is horrifying.

    I know for a fact that most of the people spouting off about this don’t know a darned thing about the details of the law or the context of it in other states. It’s all posturing in front of a political mirror.

    But they want to feel superior to others. Wiser. More evolved. And the ironic part is that is it mostly reactive, bumpersticker, lazy thinking.

    Anyone at all who has studied history understands that the rules and ideas put into place can be used by others—and often in, um, alarming ways. So change should be slow.

    But that isn’t good enough for the Fashionista Intellectuals. They remain the Kardashians of our body politic (eeew). All appearance, and little substance. And changing all the time.

    The thing is, all of this isn’t about the law in Indiana. Nor really about the pizzeria. It is about how the people spouting off feel about the themselves while spouting off.

    Better than others. “Because shut up,” as Glenn Reynolds distills the Left philosophy.

    I’m very sad about it…because history has shown how these kinds of things work out.

    Not well.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  301. Patterico,
    We just had a big discussion on economics and from time to time you opined that we should all learn some.
    Now I see we are talking about a pizza place in a town of 3000 and you are talking about $210,000 being a years worth of profits for the business.

    [Edited by Patterico to note that this claim is completely, 100% false. If steveg tries to find a quote to prove it, he will learn how badly he has misstated things. — Patterico]

    Maybe you meant gross sales?
    Or gross profits?
    Certainly not net profit…
    I’ll bet in their best year they never had a net profit of over $25K (assuming they draw a salary) and I’d be shocked if they often had no net profit after paying themselves around $40-50K which is about the median household income for that area.
    To break it down, there are only 763 households in the Watertown area and GoFund me is sending them 210K which is pure net profit. That is $275 per household worth of net profit. Assuming pizza has a net profit of 10% after owner salary in line with median stats, every household in town would have to be buying $2750 of pizza a year and there is no way this pizza place has gross sales of $2,902,250
    Even if you say “no the greater Watertown area has 1526 households”, they still would have to all buy $1375 of pizza a year and gross sales would have to be the same $2,902,250 annually

    According to this website: http://www.pmq.com/December-2012/Pizza-Power-2013-State-of-the-Industry-Report/
    For the period ending September 2012, the average per-unit sales for all U.S. pizzerias (chains and independents combined) equaled $511,948. The Top 50 chains’ per-unit sales numbers decreased slightly, from $661,053 in 2010 to $653,859 in 2011.

    The gross sale avg. is $512K and paint me skeptical that Watertown Pizza is even average here and if you scroll down you see ” the average annual sales for independents for the period ending September 2012 was $380,111.”
    I doubt they were average there either because of the size of their market.

    $210K is likely very close to their gross annual sales and is likely equal to or greater than their gross salary for the last 4-5 years.

    steveg (794291)

  302. That is 4-5 years total gross salary. $210K divided by 4-5 years $42K-$52K annually

    steveg (794291)

  303. “The profit margin pizzerias generate is heavily influenced by the quality of the pizza they sell. In 2012, YCharts reported that Domino’s Pizza had a profit margin of approximately 7.47 percent while Papa John’s margin was 4.64 percent….. The margin for small pizzerias will vary given the costs of their ingredients and their marketing strategy.”

    steveg (794291)

  304. “Daley, I see stuff like this on campus all the time, of course. And my FB feed is horrifying.”

    Simon – I completely understand. Son #3 is still in college so I get feedback from him all the time plus son #2 works overseas for a pretty liberal NGO, but there may be hope because he recently emailed me links to articles about how out of control the PC culture is on campus. :)

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  305. “That is 4-5 years total gross salary. $210K divided by 4-5 years $42K-$52K annually”

    steveg – Problem is they’ll take a big tax hit on the $210k versus spreading over multiple people over multiple years.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  306. Really, 315 comments? If this is that important, maybe it’s time to do something. Says the stupid slob just like the rest of you.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  307. That is 4-5 years total gross salary. $210K divided by 4-5 years $42K-$52K annually

    Well that’s great, but I just checked and they are up to damn near $500,000 now, with donations coming in from almost 16,000 people.

    JVW (a1146f)

  308. JWV – Lotta bigots out there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  309. Maybe if she was nailed to a fence and set on fire like mathew shepherd was I would have more sympathy. Most fundo garbage are upset that the courts threw out the sodomy laws so they could put all the homos in jail like alan turing.

    truther (ecbcfb)

  310. It is unbelievable that guns and cops are involved because some winey gays can’t get a cake baked or a pizza delviered to a gay wedding. How un American these winey gays are. Grow a pair and bake your own fricking cake, you lazy self centered always complaining minority biotches.

    mg (31009b)

  311. whiney, oh yes.

    mg (31009b)

  312. Dana where did I say anyone should be forced to do anything?

    i never said that cause of i do not belieber it

    that said it’s totally unclear whether princess pizza bigot was ever in any danger of being forced to cater to a gay wedding in indiana if this law hadn’t been passed

    it’s totally legal to do the bigotry on gay people in nether tidestank indiana population 42

    freedom is the status quo already there

    happyfeet (831175)

  313. as marj steyn says: the Christians targeted in Kenya and the targeting of these Christians differ only by degree

    sd harms (c7dded)

  314. freedom is the status quo already there

    I would say it was before this. Before the jackanapes politicians tried to do something dramatic and didn’t have the guts to see it through. A bunch of sissies beat them by screaming shrilly and waving their Visa Platinums, and freedom was lost in the retreat. Or better, rout. With their tails between their legs. Or something else.

    the cynical nk (dbc370)

  315. Also when you consider that the state of Indiana’s pride and joy at this time was hosting the Final Four, where lots of people spend lots of time and money to see ten semi-naked, sweaty young men chasing each other around for a couple of hours ….

    the nk who sees the writing on the wall (dbc370)

  316. It is only April. But before dawn on June morning they fired up their engines. They suspected they were going to kill themselves. Most did. It wasn’t what they wanted. But the Navy gave them planes and they flew them.

    I hear, Chicago, that you have a mayor that wants to change the natural order of things.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  317. I hear, Chicago, that you have a mayor that wants to change the natural order of things.
    ?

    If you mean making the Chicago River flow backwards, we already did that.

    nk (dbc370)

  318. O’Hare. OK that wasn’t Midway. Which, Chicago, still.

    But He has no idea what that Wildcat is doing there?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  319. i went to bed early before Indiana Team R did more governance

    happyfeet (831175)

  320. nk, every once in a while I just check in to see Chicago is part of America. It’s always nice to get a pulse.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  321. 330. went to bed early before Indiana Team R did more governance
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 5:20 am

    Oh, well then.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  322. I see that plane all the time. You know it was not Butch’s, right. It’s a trainer, “similar” to the Wildcats Butch flew, that had crashed into, and was later recovered from, Lake Michigan. What does Rahm want to do with it? Nobody tells me anything.

    nk (dbc370)

  323. Something is on the way that’ll straighten this whole mess out.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  324. well Marino (that’s the reporterette) declaration of crimethink did it’s damage, the instinct for Turtlepence and tippy Bosma, to cower, should be a case study. unlike his predecessor thinks, there is no AWOL in the Culture War, for ‘you will be assimilated.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  325. in other news freedom-lovin indiana is urging congress to look at beefing up and expanding the FDA’s regulatory reach

    A group of 14 state attorneys general on Thursday asked the U.S. Congress to investigate the herbal supplements industry after a New York probe of the products turned up ingredients that were not listed on labels and raised safety concerns.

    […]

    The letter was signed by attorneys general from Connecticut, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Mississippi, New Hampshire, New York, Northern Mariana Islands, Pennsylvania and Rhode Island.

    The attorneys general asked the subcommittees to work with the FDA to see whether the agency should develop enhanced quality assurance programs and other safety requirements. Currently, the FDA regulates dietary supplements under a different set of rules than those covering drug products.

    happyfeet (831175)

  326. 333. I see that plane all the time. You know it was not Butch’s, right. It’s a trainer, “similar” to the Wildcats Butch flew, that had crashed into, and was later recovered from, Lake Michigan.

    I knew it wasn’t Butch’s exact plane.

    What does Rahm want to do with it? Nobody tells me anything.
    nk (dbc370) — 4/3/2015 @ 5:35 am

    Nobody had informed Rahm of that lil’ dustup in the 1940s. Once his aids had clued him well by gawd O’Hare and Midway airports weren’t being renamed for NOBODY!

    Steve57 (b69525)

  327. Rahm is investigating how WWII has escaped his notice until now.

    Also, the Mackinaw will be breaking up global warming until July.

    That is all.

    If you got ’em, smoke ’em.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  328. The smoking lamp is lit until somebody finds the lava lamp.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  329. At which point we are just going to have to renegotiate the nuclear weapons.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  330. Here’s a little beefcake of a very young Mayor Emanuel for your morning enjoyment.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/03/30/heres-shirtless-rahm-emanuel-protesting-neo-nazis-when-he-was-18/

    I think this is the quote Stev57 is referring to.

    “We have to, in some way, whether it’s President Obama or in the other case, Dr. Brazier, acknowledge people who have done significant things. We have an airport, two of them, named after, you know, Midway Airport, O’Hare Airport,” Emanuel said. “These are people who have been transformative in the city of Chicago. But we have airports named after battleships.”

    Yes, that was an amazingly clueless and insensitive comment. Later, Emanuel spokeswoman Kelley Quinn said the mayor has no plans to rename either airport.

    elissa (bd28e5)

  331. Heh! I looked it up. He initially said that he thought the airports were named after the ships O’Hare (destroyer) and Midway (aircraft carrier) — he called them “battleships”. This f***ing guy, he’s just like his butt-buddy O’Bama.

    nk (dbc370)

  332. Ok, elissa types faster.

    nk (dbc370)

  333. he’s a graduate of New Trier, and he doesn’t know this, facepalm,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  334. I’ll bet Chuy knows all about those WWII battles and who the airports are named after or supposed to honor!

    OK, yeah. I’m kidding there.

    elissa (bd28e5)

  335. ==Ok, elissa types faster.==

    Not really. I just didn’t have to go out for a smoke first, nk. :)

    elissa (bd28e5)

  336. Maybe if she was nailed to a fence and set on fire like mathew shepherd

    Another one of the martyrs of the left and GLBT leftists in particular who, upon closer inspection, didn’t deserve the mantle of having died due to his sexual orientation and because of “oh, those mean anti-gay bigots!” I recall the case being investigated by a writer who considers himself a staunch liberal but concluded the details were all distorted to make Shepherd look more sympathetic then he really was and, in turn, his murderers to look like anti-GLBT bullies, which they really weren’t.

    In general, whenever people of the left make either a hero or villain of person A, B or C, or situation A, B or C, immediately assume the descriptions as determined by the left are inaccurate or, most tellingly, ass backwards.

    what-every-civil-rights-movement-was-about-tammy-bruce

    Commentator Tammy Bruce, a gay woman who leans right, is a reminder that what fuels the GLBT agenda isn’t sexuality per se, or homo- or bi-sexuality in particular, but liberalism in general. That’s why when newsmakers and news stories are being analyzed and debated, issues of race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion, nationality should take a distant back seat to the matter of ideology or politics.

    Mark (5a635c)

  337. I know elissa, that was ‘like a hundred years’ no it’s about power, recall Emmanuel and the late Mumbles were also at arms over Chick a Fil, yet ok to take Quradawis’ calls,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  338. Midway is named after a BATTLE, my beloved s@#$heads.

    It could be named after an aircraft carrier.

    But only if the aircraft carrier was named in honor of something else Umm kay.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  339. Beefcake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT_PClBc8vE

    Vought-Sikorsky OS2U Kingfisher

    Work it, boys. You can’t let that oil pool in the bottom cylinders. Work that prop!

    Am I helping, girls?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  340. ==Midway is named after a BATTLE, my beloved s@#$heads.–

    Who are you calling “s@#$heads”? Did you see someone- anyone- here who doesn’t know that, or who you believe is disagreeing with you in any way that Rahm made an utterly moronic statement?

    elissa (bd28e5)

  341. Muslim bakery gay hate:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgWIhYAtan4

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  342. is that really where anti-gay christian bakers wanna set the bar though Mr. daley

    that’s so lame

    happyfeet (831175)

  343. and yet KAng is a better bet than Kodos, did the Times really get on Rahm for this, probably not,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  344. happyfeet, what the “tolerants” did to that pizzeria was just plain mean. Just like what they did to Brendan Eich was just plain mean. Just like that list they have of people who donated to Proposition 8 is just plain mean. They’re just plain mean those people, happyfeet. Shrill, whiny and bitchy, too. And mean.

    nk (dbc370)

  345. It’s more than “mean,” nk. Death threats, attempts to destroy businesses, etc.

    Let’s review: someone thinks someone else is a bigot. So they treat the other person in a bigoted fashion. The language alone shows that, let alone the histrionics.

    How much better for a calm tolerant person to speak reasonably with the other person, and show that we are all human beings, and try to find common ground?

    Except that doesn’t serve the politicians. Nor does it fit well on the Daily Show or Facebook.

    Snark and threats and name calling are so much more…cool.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  346. Another bit of “tolerance” from the leftist LGBT quarter:

    Gay bakeries asked to make cakes with pro-traditional marriage messages

    Sauce for the goose….

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  347. Most fundo garbage are upset that the courts threw out the sodomy laws so they could put all the homos in jail like alan turing.

    Alan Turing never spent a day inside a jail, US or otherwise.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  348. yes yes yes some of them do get very mean but surly yelp comments are a fairly benign form of expression I think

    also just not patronizing them is also pretty benign

    but threatening them that they’re going to burn down their pizza hut is really mean and I’m pretty sure it’s illegal

    i would think it’s at least a “terroristic threat” sort of dealio

    happyfeet (831175)

  349. Those are some tasty cakes, Chuck B.! Turn about IS fair play.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  350. “Maybe if she was nailed to a fence and set on fire like matthew shepherd.”

    I remember reading Shepherd was a crank dealer who got on the wrong side of the two miscreants who flambéed him.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  351. “is that really where anti-gay christian bakers wanna set the bar though Mr. daley”

    Mr. False Representation Feets – Which bakers are anti-gay? Two days ago you said you have never been in a bakery which asked people their sexual orientation before serving them. Why you gotta go back to that nonsense again now?

    This is about the Big Gay Hate Machine debasing religion through the force of the state to create protected classes of citizens. Don’t pretend it is anything else.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  352. Chuck Bartowski (11fb31) — 4/3/2015 @ 8:19 am

    It needs to be done face to face, and politely pointing out how it is equivalent to asking someone who is pro-traditional marriage to bake a cake for a ssw.

    But my guess is more often than not the argument will be, “but they are the bigots, not us”.

    Showing again the concern is not simply to “be able to be themselves”, but to demand that everyone else affirm them as well, not just as people, but their sexual behavior.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  353. Has anyone seen a good explanation and analysis of what Indiana and Arkansas have ended up doing?

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  354. One of the more regrettable aspects of this affair is the behavior of the ABC “reporters” who stirred up the whole thing. The snarky male anchor who introduces the segment, followed by the self righteous female who sequels to the lowly field reporter both build an atmosphere of distain and belittlement. Since they were only too happy to identify, isolate, and immobilize their victims in their little family store, perhaps these heroes of modern enlightenment would reciprocate by publishing their home addresses, where they park their cars, and details about their families. Fair’s fair?

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  355. “I remember reading Shepherd was a crank dealer who got on the wrong side of the two miscreants who flambéed him.”

    Colonel – It was not a gay hate crime, but certain people have an interest in perpetuating that myth.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  356. https://www.gofundme.com/memoriespizza

    It is now over $550,000,
    and there is an interview of them planning to reopen, it was at >$200,000 at the time of the interview.

    yeah free market!!! as that pro-SSM on Kelly said.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  357. Bigot in Philly – How can they reopen?

    Think about what a threat to the SSM movement they represent!

    In a town the size in which they are located you probably need two hands to count the number of gay people.

    If they all want to get married and have pizza served at their weddings this could be a catastrophe!

    This must not stand!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  358. Well, I don’t like to hear the people who own the pizza restaurants called bigots (because they are not).

    But a lot of people registered their opinions with money, rather than inexpensive, hateful, and intellectually lazy insults and snark—to the tune of 500,000 bucks.

    That’s an interesting take home lesson.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  359. great link, daley, it was encouraging. I need to watch that guy more often.

    Thinking about it, I would not be surprised if a lot of that money doesn’t go to legal fees when all sorts of folk come from out of town to order pizza for their SS wedding reception, or celebration, or what ever, just to continue to harass them.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  360. What bobathome said at 367. That is Kristallnacht level meanness. ABC-Chicago drew the yellow star on that pizzeria.

    nk (dbc370)

  361. there is clearly a broader discussion to be had here

    happyfeet (831175)

  362. Apres Memories Pizza, le deluge!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  363. 374. Both ABC57 and its “reporter” are based in South Bend. It is “the voice of Michiana.”. But certainly other ABC affiliates and its national news service were happy to pick it up and give it wide exposure.

    Alyssa, BTW, is a native of Connecticut and worked in Bismark before going to South Bend. Wonder if this will ultimately be a benefit or a detriment to her budding career. It could go either way, I think.

    elissa (bd28e5)

  364. “there is clearly a broader discussion to be had here”

    Mr. Feets – More importantly, there is an honest discussion to be had here. Unfortunately you have absented yourself from that dialogue.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  365. Now $600K

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  366. i honestly do not know why Team R wanted to pick this fight now of all moments

    their brand is already crappy hatey and intolerant enough

    the gay marriage ship has sailed and this sort of thing just makes Team R look like sore losers

    happyfeet (831175)

  367. OMG

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  368. OMG

    happyfeet (831175)

  369. The pizza people didn’t discriminate against gays. They clearly said they serve anyone. They said they would not cater a SSM. Person v. Activity. IINAL, but I am darned sure you cannot discriminate against an activity. Just people.

    With that, if gays are so upset about this seemingly widespread plague of discrimination, why have so very few been inspired to make their place in what could only be described as a niche market ready for the taking? Clearly, with the onslaught of SSM discrimination, there is a bundle to be made by SSM wedding planners, etc. I’d like to see more pro-active initiative and less foot-stamping by those screaming the misappropriately screaming the loudest.

    Dana (5fc867)

  370. Eh, “… By those screaming the loudest”

    Dana (5fc867)

  371. What bobathome said at 367. That is Kristallnacht level meanness. ABC-Chicago drew the yellow star on that pizzeria.
    nk (dbc370) — 4/3/2015 @ 9:27 am

    Succinct, unlike me.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  372. But it was ABC 57 like elissa said, not ABC-Chicago (Chicago is Channel 7). My mistake.

    nk (dbc370)

  373. “i honestly do not know why Team R wanted to pick this fight now of all moments”

    “Who” wanted to pick this fight???

    Dana (5fc867)

  374. “i honestly do not know why Team R wanted to pick this fight now of all moments”

    Complete Headscratcher for the intolerant.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  375. Somebody hand Mr. Feets a fire extinguisher to put out those blazing straw men.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  376. I’m tired, Dana. Thank you for keeping the situation as it was, instead of allowing things to be presented incorrectly to serve a narrative. Like those silly television parakeets.

    Cue Don Henley’s song, “Dirty Laundry.”

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  377. Ditto daley.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  378. Simon – Just more puerile pablum from the pickachu.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  379. feets whines “don’t rock teh boat, baby”…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  380. perspective on ms, Marino

    http://gotnews.com/breaking-reporter-in-memoriespizza-obsessed-with-gay-left-wing-issues-rfra

    maybe you can invite her to a nespresso, pikachu,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  381. there is clearly a broader discussion to be had here

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 9:34 am

    Yes… I like sausage, mushroom and olives on a thin crust… and you?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  382. pragmatic pikachus oppose prejudice, promote pervasive pizza provisionings!

    happyfeet (831175)

  383. failmerican reporters are just terrible people narciso

    it’s a known issue

    happyfeet (831175)

  384. teh anchovy rots at teh head…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  385. did teh ghey anchovy choose that “lifestyle”, or was it born that way?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  386. they got schools for that, you know…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  387. so as with Tucson, Sanford, et al, they run the ball, all the way to the endzone,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  388. steveg said:

    Patterico,
    We just had a big discussion on economics and from time to time you opined that we should all learn some.
    Now I see we are talking about a pizza place in a town of 3000 and you are talking about $210,000 being a years worth of profits for the business.

    Completely and utterly false, steveg.

    You could not have misstated my position more.

    Let’s review what I said in the post:

    UPDATE x2: After 7 hours, the GoFundMe stands at over $45,000. That’s a lot of 12-inch pepperoni pies. Well, I guess the Social Justice Warriors have won — if by “winning” you mean “cause a business to earn in 7 hours what it probably would have earned in a good month, if not more.”

    UPDATE x3: If we’re talking profit? $45,000 could be a year’s worth of profit for a place like this. Thanks to elissa for challenging my assumptions on this.

    In a comment above I explained what I meant:

    RU kidding Patterico? This is a small town. That may well be a year’s income for them.

    Good point, looking at the money as pure profit rather than gross sales (which is how I was improperly looking at it). I just did a quick search and found this link:

    I recently learned that a profit margin of 7 percent is the average for the pizzeria industry. . . . I just could not come to terms with this figure. If this statistic holds true, it means that a typical pizzeria that is doing $10,000 in sales per week for $520,000 in annual sales will only generate $36,400 in profit.

    So, $45,000 might be close to gross sales for a month or more, which is what I was thinking. But if they make a 7% profit margin, then you’re right. It could easily equal or exceed a year’s profits.

    Wow.

    I sloppily used the term “earned” in UPDATE x2 as shorthand for gross receipts, instead of “taken in” which is what I meant. I noted that, at a rate of profit of 7%, $45,000 could easily be seen as a year’s worth of profit.

    (Of course, these numbers are all speculative. But I was thinking of the business as taking in no more than a couple grand a day at most in gross receipts — making the number large to make the comparison fair.)

    The actual numbers you cite are not that very far off from the numbers I was using, as it happens.

    By the time you left your comment, this clarification had long since been made, and it utterly misstates my position for you to falsely claim that I said $210,000 would be a year’s worth of profits for the business.

    I can only guess that you came into the discussion when the GoFundMe sat at $210,000, and you paid no attention whatsoever to the actual numbers I had cited, paid no attention to either UPDATE x3 or my comment on the matter, and then proceeded to lecture me on my economic foolishness based on your agglomeration of careless mistakes and oversights.

    There may have been some people who read your comment and were fooled into thinking you had properly stated my position — it is always the case that some number of people will believe absolutely anything they read. In any event, I have taken the unusual step of editing your comment to interpolate my correction of your false accusation. I’d appreciate it if you went ahead and took it back.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  389. “there is clearly a broader discussion to be had here

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 9:34 am”

    There certainly is, but if it cannot be looked at honestly, then there’s really no point.

    Dana (5fc867)

  390. Patterico tried to make it into a discussion about a general right of liberty. But the gaiety took over.

    In his confirmation hearing, Roberts did say that he saw a general right of liberty in the 9th and 14th Amendments. If he’s shown it yet in his opinions, I haven’t seen it.

    nk (dbc370)

  391. Getting back to PP’s fave presidential candidate, there’s this over at Hotair.

    You know, with all that money rolling in, the O’Connor family could outfit an 18-wheeler as a mobile Pizzeria and attach themselves to the political campaign of their choice.
    I wonder what a Cruz Pizza tastes like?

    askeptic (efcf22)

  392. #405: askeptic, alas they’d have to spend more than they’ve been given just to buy the hundreds of local business licenses and to satisfy all the state and local food handling certification activities. But it would be fun to see them roll into a rally with an escort of brightly painted MRAP vehicles, bought at surplus from assorted university security forces, and a company of ex-seals for security.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  393. License, we don’t need no stinkin’ license!

    askeptic (efcf22)

  394. UPDATE x5: Less than 48 hours later, the GoFundMe for the pizza folks stands at over $725,000. (Mandy’s has taken in more than $250 after a week-long lull, which is also nice. Thanks to those of you who contributed.) I probably won’t do another update on this unless it exceeds $1M.

    This story clearly taps into a vein of anger out there. I hope these folks will channel that into something productive on the electoral front, like supporting Ted Cruz.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  395. this just in… http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mothers-who-eat-a-newborn-s-placenta-may-or-may-not-benefit/

    Hey… I thought Placenta was a small city in teh O.C.?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  396. This shows that the response to the attacks on Chick-fil-A was not a one-time thing.
    If that shop was still open, and wasn’t a four-day (or more) drive away, I’d go get a pie there.
    Now, the LGBT community needs to figure out how to put this shark back in its cage before they become quadriplegics.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  397. Col, eating newborns in Placentia, CA, is still illegal.

    bobathome (ef0d3a)

  398. Is that placenta prepared in garlic-lemon butter, or done BBQ?

    askeptic (efcf22)

  399. i honestly do not know why Team R wanted to pick this fight now of all moments

    You mean by enacting a state law that conforms with existing federal law? Wow, that’s some dangerous fight-picking.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  400. An aerial view of the Mike Pence Implosion.
    …courtesy of Jonah Goldberg….

    askeptic (efcf22)

  401. 412. Is that placenta prepared in garlic-lemon butter, or done BBQ?
    askeptic (efcf22) — 4/3/2015 @ 11:53 am

    Better!

    http://www.inquisitr.com/1970186/anglo-saxon-remedy-cures-mrsa-superbug/

    Not only does it go great with placenta, you’ll live forever.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  402. Where’s the Placenta?

    Clara Peller (31009b)

  403. The Anglo-Saxon MRSA remedy once used as an eye salve, calls for wine, Allium – garlic and leek or onion, wine, and oxgall – which is bile from the stomach of a cow. A brass pot is used to brew the superbug remedy. Once mixed together, the MRSA cure is strained in order to purify the concoction. After the medieval eye salve remedy has been left to sit for nine days, it is ready to use, according to the instructions found, and followed, by Dr. Lee.
    Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1970186/anglo-saxon-remedy-cures-mrsa-superbug/#ObAylw5Kpr0Ghe9w.99

    And it makes a great sandwich spread.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  404. nk – If it’s only 20 miles from South Bend, why don’t you and I and maybe elissa take Mr. Feets on a road trip to get a few pies?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  405. Easter Pizza anyone?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  406. Crunchy Christ bread sticks?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  407. let’s call first and see if they have fresh jalapenos and not the icky pickled kind out of a can

    happyfeet (831175)

  408. uh oh

    yelp says the pizza isn’t very good

    happyfeet (831175)

  409. Memories Pizza
    608 Roosevelt Rd, Walkerton, IN 46574
    (574) 586-7708
    Open 4:00 PM – 10:00 PM

    There you go, feets.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  410. Yelp is full of s***heads.

    But, yeah, teh pizza probably isn’t any good. It’s Indiana.

    Going to Indiana for pizza is like going to Kansas for pasta. Or Iowa for Sushi.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  411. Letter from home.

    “Dear Mom and Dad, the Dakotas are really nice. But the Thai food sucks. The guy who made us the Yum Pla Muk was some hippie who had maybe seen a picture of Thai food back in the sixties.

    Yeah.

    We went to Mickey D’s.

    Love & kisses,

    Steve57″

    Steve57 (b69525)

  412. Making Pizza is a non-transferable skill that I guess has not reached the Midwest, moron, and planes do not fly in fresh fish either.

    Mr. Feets, I will bring fresh jalapenos. Problem solved.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  413. We can stop at Chick-fil-A on the way home. Make it a twofer.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  414. i love chik fil a sooo much but mostly for breakfast but not lately cause I been pretty good since that day i tried all those paczki

    pizza i can for sure do i might even check the vestibule for coupons when i go feed my friend D’s kiki fuff

    happyfeet (831175)

  415. my friend D is just appalled at these Indiana people and their wacky laws

    but I don’t hold it against him

    you have to do tolerance on people and help them with their kitties when they go out of town for Easter

    that’s what Jesus wants us to do

    happyfeet (831175)

  416. Hypothetically choosing not to participate in a SSM ceremony is not discrimination no matter what the Big Gay Hate Machine says.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  417. 427. … planes do not fly in fresh fish either.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/3/2015 @ 3:05 pm

    Gonna have to differ with you there, boss. Kinda.

    The fish is fresh frozen. I mean, if the fish is sold in the fish market in Tokyo, and then put on a plane to Tennessee, and then on a truck in Des Moines, and no freezing was involved, who is going to want to eat the fish? Without lots o’ Tequila and Sriracha.

    I rest my case.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  418. Basically without the freezing it’s like eating out of a dumpster.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  419. Feets! It looks like they got a pizza just made fer you! http://t.co/04D9GDLJWO

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  420. Hypothetically choosing not to participate in a SSM ceremony is not discrimination no matter what the Big Gay Hate Machine says.

    you just don’t understand

    all our lives we knowed in our heads there’s stuff you just don’t say

    and these rare instances where people like this horrible indiana pizza girl with the stripper name imply that gay people are less than christian – well that’s one of those things you just don’t say no mores and you know what that’s fine

    it don’t change the price of nobody’s peabnut bubber

    and we’ll all float on alright

    happyfeet (831175)

  421. Mr. Colonel I’m all out for attacking filthy failmerican journalist trash

    they do not add value

    happyfeet (831175)

  422. I’m sorry. Did I miss something?

    I was busy inlating my pants during the drownproofing phase of the training.

    What?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  423. yes yes we’ll all float on alright

    happyfeet (831175)

  424. *inlating = inflating

    Steve57 (b69525)

  425. “The fish is fresh frozen. I mean, if the fish is sold in the fish market in Tokyo, and then put on a plane to Tennessee, and then on a truck in Des Moines, and no freezing was involved, who is going to want to eat the fish? Without lots o’ Tequila and Sriracha.”

    Steve57 – Are you going back to your retarded comment?

    First, why would the fish that was sold in Tokyo that came from Gloucester be flown back to the U.S.?

    I’m gonna have to differ with you there on your regional bigotries Admiral.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  426. I’m trying to paraphrase:

    If rescue is not imminent, remove your boots. You can not tread water forever while you still have your boots on, dumb@$$. But don’t throw them away or you’ll just cut your feet up on the coral reefs, s***ferbrains.

    Yes, I believe that is a faithful translation from the liturgy.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  427. happyfeet:

    and these rare instances where people like this horrible indiana pizza girl with the stripper name imply that gay people are less than christian – well that’s one of those things you just don’t say no mores and you know what that’s fine

    happyfeet has correctly identified the issue here. Christians aren’t allowed to believe or say what their religion teaches if it conflicts with what secular liberals believe. This is liberal religion trumping the beliefs of conservative religion.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  428. one lil edit

    believe or

    it’s a free country you know

    happyfeet (831175)

  429. 441. happyfeet has correctly identified the issue here…

    DRJ (e80d46) — 4/3/2015 @ 3:56 pm

    happyfeet often identifies the problem.

    It’s when he attempts to identify the solution he goes off the rails.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  430. I think this pizza place is telling me that if you have the courage to say that, you will not be alone and people might even give you a million dollars.

    nk (dbc370)

  431. 442. …it’s a free country you know

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 4:02 pm

    And we would like to keep it that way.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  432. Gays are definitely less than Buddhists. Buddhists are vegetarians.

    nk (dbc370)

  433. Hindus, too. Except the Kshatriyas. And even the Kshatriyas are not allowed to eat cows, so those obese lesbians might want to lose some weight.

    nk (dbc370)

  434. hey, the Bigot not in Philly is in NW Ohio, like almost in IN and MI, NW Ohio
    Don’t meet for pizza without letting me know
    but I’m not sure if I’ll be here still 10 days from now.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  435. I’m remiss. Unlike I our esteemed preezy I haven’t writ two autobiographies praising mine own divine self.

    Still working on it. Vote for a title.

    “Roadkill of my Mind; The Steve57 Story”

    Or

    “Of course I’m an @$$hole; The Steve57 Story”

    Those are your choices. Vote now. Vote early. Vote often.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  436. $836,446 as of 6:21 p.m.
    Raised by 28,916 people in 2 days

    Am I allowed to say that?

    nk (dbc370)

  437. Dunno, nk.

    But mebbe if the fly-over bitter clingers can’t make ‘za they can make other things.

    Like clay pots or flint tools or…

    http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1116

    …light attack aircraft.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  438. (Imitating Clint Eastwood)-
    nk, you just did.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  439. Sushi recommendations from the Monterey Bay Aquarium:

    http://www.seafoodwatch.org/-/m/sfw/pdf/guides/mba-seafoodwatch-sushi-guide.pdf?la=en

    Better alert Tokyo.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  440. You know, nk, whatever is within their primitive grasp and the capability or their stone tools.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  441. Since when to I take sushi recommendations from the Monterey Bay Aquarium?

    Let’s cut to the chase. What is it with you Chicago people? One wrong word an the garments are wrent and the Holy of Holies is violated.

    Deal with it.

    http://www.becketfund.org/morr-fitz/

    What’s wrong is wrong.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  442. re #359: is that video getting any traction (I’m presuming it is not a hoax)

    The goFundMe is way too much at this point. Can’t he stop it or put on a notice to go fund another link in honor of the pizzeria?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  443. What were you trying to prove, daley? The eye strain of getgting past “best choices,” “good alternatives,” and “avoid” utterly defeated me.

    Here I sit, a beaten man.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  444. MD,

    It is our faith that is the problem here, according to the NYT:

    THE drama in Indiana last week and the larger debate over so-called religious freedom laws in other states portray homosexuality and devout Christianity as forces in fierce collision.

    They’re not — at least not in several prominent denominations, which have come to a new understanding of what the Bible does and doesn’t decree, of what people can and cannot divine in regard to God’s will.

    And homosexuality and Christianity don’t have to be in conflict in any church anywhere.

    That many Christians regard them as incompatible is understandable, an example not so much of hatred’s pull as of tradition’s sway. Beliefs ossified over centuries aren’t easily shaken.

    But in the end, the continued view of gays, lesbians and bisexuals as sinners is a decision. It’s a choice. It prioritizes scattered passages of ancient texts over all that has been learned since — as if time had stood still, as if the advances of science and knowledge meant nothing.

    It disregards the degree to which all writings reflect the biases and blind spots of their authors, cultures and eras.

    It ignores the extent to which interpretation is subjective, debatable.

    And it elevates unthinking obeisance above intelligent observance, above the evidence in front of you, because to look honestly at gay, lesbian and bisexual people is to see that we’re the same magnificent riddles as everyone else: no more or less flawed, no more or less dignified.

    (That’s right, if I’m a miserable sinner fallen from Grace, so too is every gay, trans, etc. Equal-opportunity God, equal opportunity salvation. Everyone misses the mark and there are no special snowflakes.)

    IOW, it’s the traditional Christian belief which started this whole brouhaha. God changed His mind. Why haven’t you?!

    Dana (5fc867)

  445. what else is a choice are those nasty canned jalapeno pickles instead of fresh

    crystal i hope you’re reading this

    you have more than enough money now for fresh so repent of your mooshy slimy pickled jalapenos and walk with the lord

    happyfeet (831175)

  446. re #458:

    They’re not — at least not in several prominent denominations, which have come to a new understanding of what the Bible does and doesn’t decree, of what people can and cannot divine in regard to God’s will.


    just because you call yourself Christian doesn’t make you Christian.
    If some groups want to change the rules, fine , go ahead. But don’t claim baseball is rounders.
    reminds me of Hutchins (the atheist brother, passed away about a year ago?) telling someone who claimed to be Christian that she was not as she did not believe the Gospels.
    (think i got the story correct. if not, sorry)

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  447. seeing people using the bible to rationalize bigotry on the gays

    it’s really disturbing

    happyfeet (831175)

  448. I like it when the NYT is the recipient of divine revelation. Like God sends them the special memo because everyone else would just screw it up (as evidenced these past few thousand years).

    Dana (5fc867)

  449. seeing people using the bible to rationalize bigotry on the gays

    it’s really disturbing

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 5:56 pm

    I agree, Happyfeet. It’s right up there with the gays using it to rationalize their bigotry towards Christians.

    Dana (5fc867)

  450. Agreed, Dana. This is how cultural war works.

    Just remember that our betters know better than we do. We should just agree with them, right?

    Otherwise, we won’t be cool like they are.

    It’s just easier to agree, and call people names. And feel smug.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  451. 461. seeing people using the bible to rationalize bigotry on the gays

    it’s really disturbing
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 5:56 pm

    It just sucks, the way Christians quote the word of Christ.

    Care to have a big, steaming glass of Anglo-Saxon Superbug tea on the way out?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  452. now Kish has a point that all sexual immorality is regarded as sin, however we lost the battle on divorce, forty years ago,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  453. There is lots of good pizza in the Midwest.

    JD (1ed1ad)

  454. I really hated it when people used the Criminal Code to rationalize bigotry against murderers, rapists, robbers and burglars.

    nk (dbc370)

  455. there is pizza of which the angels sing on yonder plains

    happyfeet (831175)

  456. seeRpea- I believe it was a Unitarian.

    The NYT and feets can be bothered by whatever they want,

    Jesus said He and His father were a lot more bothered by people changing what was written in Scripture to suit there own ends
    It was that ZoNation guy that said Jesus was gonna be PO’ed when He returns
    (that is a paraphrase from the original Greek)

    But in the end, the continued view of gays, lesbians and bisexuals as sinners is a decision.
    The best lies have an amount of truth to them. That much is true, the nonsense that somehow we have learned something to prove that wrong is ridiculous.
    Besides, even if the person wanted to make that claim anywhere near historical Christianity, they would have said something about gay behavior being sinful or not, because all gays, lesbians, and bis are just as much sinners as any old hetero.
    It is also a decision to say sin doesn’t matter, or that God didn’t say what He said, or meant what He said.
    But I don’t look to the NYT for my theology (or much of anything else)

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  457. But, yeah, Dana, our faith is the problem to them.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  458. Rocky Rococo’s was the best, back in the day, with whole wheat crust.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  459. on christ the solid rock i stand all other ground is sinking sand

    so you wanna stand over here with me i’ll scooch over

    happyfeet (831175)

  460. oh my goodness Sarah Brady is dead

    happyfeet (831175)

  461. No harbor can hold me. My life, my love, and my lady is the sea, dammit. I am tired of hiding in the closet. That chick and all those kids in Indonesia, Thailand, Korea, and places to be named later, THAT’S ME!

    I will be respected. My therapist tells me so.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  462. Dana, I don’t know if you saw this, but considering all the description of bigotry:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/cbs-employee-goes-silent-after-making-baseless-fraud-charge-about-embattled-indiana-pizzeria/article/2562533?custom_click=rss

    But that’s the nice stuff. Check this out:

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/355934.php

    Yeah. Our media. That’s not at all bullying and mean spirited. It’s tolerant and cool. Not at all mindlessly bigoted and low class.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  463. The girl didn’t say “Don’t do it, you filthy homos, you’re going to Hell”. She said, “Don’t ask me to join in”.

    No?

    nk (dbc370)

  464. It’s just Teh Narrative, nk.

    And the part that breaks my heart is how little people read history…to remember that this is how awful, awful things begin.

    Once it is okay to mob and bully people for what they say, what is next? Well, it depends on who is in charge, doesn’t it?

    Robespierre finally understood, too late.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  465. Lady Za Za and The Sunnyside – two of the best pies ever.
    http://www.pizzerialola.com/menu/pizzas/

    Clara Peller (31009b)

  466. I’m glad they have had so much support and will be able to afford legal fees for a long, long time.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  467. i don’t see it that way mr. nk

    there’s no explanation for refusing to serve matrimonial homos unless you think they’re somehow less than other people in the eyes of the Lord our God

    and that’s just so blasphemous

    i’m a pray for crystal

    Dear god please to knock crystal upside her ignant head so she’s more nicer to people and she stops thinking she’s more better than other people, and for the love of pete let’s address this jalapeno situation. Also please stop Obama’s genocide on Israel while there’s still time.

    Amen.

    happyfeet (831175)

  468. 480. ..The girl didn’t say “Don’t do it, you filthy homos, you’re going to Hell”. She said, “Don’t ask me to join in”.

    No?
    nk (dbc370) — 4/3/2015 @ 6:38 pm

    I’m wondering. From my SPAM folder

    Steve57 (b69525)

  469. there’s no explanation for refusing to serve matrimonial homos unless you think they’re somehow less than other people in the eyes of the Lord our God

    You can see it anyway you want,
    that does not make it logically sound

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  470. happyfeet:

    After editing, this is what you say you agree with:

    Christians aren’t allowed to believe or say what their religion teaches if it conflicts with what secular liberals believe.

    That means you also should agree with the reverse of that statement:

    Secular liberals aren’t allowed to say what their beliefs are if they conflict with what Christians believe.

    I have a feeling you find that objectionable. If so, you are a hypocrite.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  471. oh my goodness you really have no idea how many things I don’t say

    that’s kind of sweet really if you turn it around just so and look at it in the right light

    happyfeet (831175)

  472. there’s no explanation for refusing to serve matrimonial homos unless you think they’re somehow less than other people in the eyes of the Lord our God

    That’s patently false. You can think that, in the eyes of the Lord, all people are equal, including gays, but still think that same-sex marriage is not equal in God’s eyes.

    I should say it’s amazing that you don’t understand the distinction, but this thread has proven you’re not being intellectually honest in your arguments on the subject.

    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89)

  473. Would you cater an Aryan nation wedding, Happyfeet?

    Dana (5fc867)

  474. 2016 challenge
    defusing the 3% + choice making transgendered and choice making bisexuals

    mg (31009b)

  475. seeing people using the bible to rationalize bigotry on the gays

    it’s really disturbing

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 5:56 pm

    We’ve seen this line of “argument” from feet over and over ad nauseum.

    One could infer that he believes that the bible doesn’t say what conservative Christians say it does or that they’re misapplying the verses, or that the bible is not the word of God. I assume he believes one of those, likely the last one. But he never actually advances any arguments in support of any of those.

    In the absence of arguing for any of the above claims, his continual narrative about “using” the bible implies either that conservative Christians are all a bunch of liars in claiming it violates their understanding of the bible, or that we all embraced the bible after we heard it validates our (presumably preexisting) bigotry.

    This is a fairly close parallel to the liberal mindset that just knows anyone who, say, opposes racial quotas in college admissions or thinks the cop in Ferguson wasn’t guilty is a flaming racist.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  476. but you not getting it DRJ

    even in failmerica

    there’s something you can vaguely call society

    it’s heavily-tatted and unbelievably food stampy, but nevertheless it’s ours

    and that society, just as a function of being a society, has mores

    and in failmerican society today, it’s transgressive to be as bigoty to gays as this small subset of christians feel like they have a license to be

    and that’s why you see these strong reactions

    and there’s nothing to be done about it

    it’s a toothpaste and tube thing

    happyfeet (831175)

  477. She didn’t refuse to serve homos.

    nk (dbc370)

  478. I’m on Team DRJ. How about you, Patterico? It’s your site. No one else’s.

    Simon Jester (478a70)

  479. yeah she’s kinda getting all the opprobrium when her husband clem kadiddlehopper is really the one what was way more snotty about the whole thing

    but these things don’t really play by rules of logic and fairness

    happyfeet (831175)

  480. Robespierre finally understood, too late.

    I was thinking the same thing earlier, Simon. The daughter flew back yesterday from Paris where, among other things, she saw Notre Dame Cathedral. The mob defaced it and looted it during the Revolution. Robespierre is dead, and Danton is dead, and the Church is holding services at a restored Notre Dame. Because the Church did not allow its Faith to be defaced.

    nk (dbc370)

  481. I’m on Team DRJ too

    cumbaya me reina eres tu mi antidoto y veneno!

    happyfeet (831175)

  482. how the gay patrol can run the country is beyond me.

    mg (31009b)

  483. That’s patently false. You can think that, in the eyes of the Lord, all people are equal, including gays, but still think that same-sex marriage is not equal in God’s eyes.

    I should say it’s amazing that you don’t understand the distinction, but this thread has proven you’re not being intellectually honest in your arguments on the subject.

    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89) — 4/3/2015 @ 7:05 pm

    As I said it’s the same logic-free fact-free narrative repeated over and over in a sort of nursery rhyme fashion every time another Christian comes under attack, sometimes just for thinking something as in this case. It doesn’t convince anyone here any more than calling someone a racist over and over for saying the Ferguson cop was innocent convinces anyone here. Yet he keeps doing it. It’s sort of a masturbatory thing.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  484. 487.
    I read Mr. Feets as being descriptive, not prescriptive, to borrow from grammar. It is prudent for a Christian to not speak their mind and choose their words carefully.
    Those that speak their mind should be prepared to accept the consequences.

    I think the pizza lady ought to cater a same sex wedding, as a matter of law. When you go into business to serve the public you at least partly waive your right of association.
    And bear in mind that if your argument against SSM is based only on “this I know because the Bible tells me so” then you are inherently demanding that others be forced to abide by your religious beliefs.
    BUT…
    In the actual case here we have nothing like that.
    An incident manufactured by members of the MSM
    A person merely giving her own personal opinion
    A feeding frenzy on social media that has no governmental involvement.
    So Memories Pizza deserves full respect.

    kishnevi (adea75)

  485. Your society may be different than mine, happyfeet. Apparently you don’t have a problem with telling my society to shut up.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  486. This reminds me of the supermarket that refused to bake a cake for a family’s 3-year-old because they named him Adolf Hitler. In that case, the government ultimately took Adolf and his similarly-named siblings away from the parents.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  487. kishnevi:

    When you go into business to serve the public you at least partly waive your right of association.

    You would force the supermarket to bake the cake for Adolf Hitler’s birthday party?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  488. i will tell to you a story from when i was a wee small pikachu

    mama pikachu and me were off to a doctor’s appointment, for I was a sickly lil guy, and we spent a lot of time together, me and mama pikachu, driving to see specialists in Houston and back

    and who comes on the radio but the Beatles, whose musics I knew a little cause of mom n dad were tight with the radio station people and they gave us all these really cool records

    so i says to mama I say mama I don’t like the Beatles

    and she said well that’s ok but we don’t say that in front of smart people

    I learned a lesson from mama pikachu that day, a lesson with a shockingly wide applicability.

    happyfeet (831175)

  489. Are there any limits on what public businesses have to do?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  490. hitler
    gays
    pizza
    happy times

    mg (31009b)

  491. And bear in mind that if your argument against SSM is based only on “this I know because the Bible tells me so” then you are inherently demanding that others be forced to abide by your religious beliefs.

    kishnevi (adea75) — 4/3/2015 @ 7:27 pm

    Totally preposterous.

    happyfeet’s Ed Schultz or this lunatic legislator.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  492. DRJ, yes, I would say the supermarket should bake the cake.
    If a customer wants to do something lawful, like carrying a gun on their person at all times, it is not the business’s right to tell them no, if the business is open to the public at large

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  493. who puts their kid’s last name on a birfday cake

    that’s just weird

    happyfeet (831175)

  494. Dang! I just can’t wait until a lesbian claims that the professional girls’ hoohahs in Reno, Nevada are “public accommodations”.

    nk (dbc370)

  495. What are the limits of that, kishnevi? What if a pedophile organization orders a cake with naked cherubs? I’m sure you can imagine other scenarios. Either you have a limit or you don’t. If there is something you think is too far, then why are you willing to enforce your limit but you won’t let other people enforce theirs?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  496. Nk gets it, as always. The Kardashians think their fashion opinions constitute natural law, and only dumb rubes disagree. They don’t consider how it will look later.

    Simon Jester (0b52df)

  497. It isn’t the same as carrying a gun. You are forcing the supermarket (or pizzeria or whatever) to do an action for a customer. I think that’s different.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  498. Fashion makes poor law. Just ask POTUS his opinion of SSM five years ago.

    But following fashion makes the follower feel fabulous and invited to all the right parties.

    Isn’t there a fable about that?

    Simon Jester (0b52df)

  499. 509.
    How?
    Christian. You should be against SSM marriage, because The Bible says marriage is etc.
    NonChristian. I don’t believe in the Bible. Have any other evidence?
    If the Christian has non religious arguments, then well and good. If not, then the Christian is simply demanding others conform to his beliefs.

    It is, as DRJ pointed out, really the reverse of the proponents of SSM demanding Memories Pizza conform to their belief about SSM.

    kishnevi (adea75)

  500. failmerica is a very gay-affirming country

    and me

    me i have way more important things about which to quarrel with failmerica

    what’s a pikachu got if he don’t got his priorities

    happyfeet (831175)

  501. To be honest, I enjoy the spectacle watching people explain DRJ’s faith to her. I hope it amuses DRJ, who is thoughtful and well read and kind.

    Simon Jester (0b52df)

  502. happyfeet,

    Please help me understand the lesson your mama taught you about smart people that has shockingly wide applicability. In your mother-inspired hierarchy of smart people, where do Christians and conservatives fall?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  503. Happyfeet,

    It’s not a one way street, this bigotry you speak of. Do you see that, at the least?

    Dana (5fc867)

  504. the lesson is that sometimes it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt

    and the thing is

    it costs you nothing

    happyfeet (831175)

  505. LOL

    Simon Jester (0b52df)

  506. DRJ, I said what the limit is…any thing that is lawful. A very objective limit that, and one decided on through objective processes that do not depend on individual beliefs.
    A person who wants a cake for Hitler’s birthday, or for a 65th wedding anniversary, or a person who carries a gun on them at all times, should get what they want because they are doibg what the law permits, and it is no business of the owner to say otherwise.

    kishnevi (9c4b9c)

  507. I do not see that in the least Dana

    happyfeet (831175)

  508. kishnevi,

    Don’t SSM advocates expect everyone to conform to their beliefs when they ask Christians to legally recognize SSM? That’s government recognition that carries the force of law. Expecting Christians to also personally cater (pun intended) to SSM advocates strikes me as different.

    I would express it like this: If a musician has a concert, he can’t ban gays from attending just because they are gay. But gays can’t force the musician to perform a concert at their wedding just because they like him. He gets to decide who he performs for and who he doesn’t.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  509. kishnevi,

    That’s circular, don’t you think? It’s lawful to compel someone to bake a cake if they don’t have a religious exemption. But if they have a religious exemption, it’s no longer lawful to compel them to do an act.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  510. happyfeet:

    522.the lesson is that sometimes it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt

    So your mama warned you not to say foolish things in front of smart people because they would realize you are a fool, but it’s fine to say foolish things in front of dumb people because they won’t realize how foolish you are? Is that the lesson?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  511. that’s pretty much it yeah

    happyfeet (831175)

  512. but the key thing is you get to make choices

    I get to make choices

    crystal gets to make choices

    happyfeet (831175)

  513. DRJ–I don’t think it’s entirely clear what religious “exemption” you mean above. Do you mean an objection which may be asserted as a defense under certain state’s RFRA or something different?

    elissa (b44fa6)

  514. What choice do you think Crystal has? Apparently you don’t think she gets to decide who her business can sell its pizza to.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  515. I am sure that gofundme.com is having to fend of frantic hacking attempts itself. The gay gang would dearly love to get hold of the donor list and put that online for some secondary death treat action.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  516. I do not see that in the least Dana

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/3/2015 @ 7:57 pm


    And why not?

    Dana (5fc867)

  517. crystal’s a moot point now

    she won the bigot lotto

    that’s like when you get BOTH showcase showdowns PLUS the ceramic dalmation

    happyfeet (831175)

  518. cause of the bigoty christians are a wee small minority

    they don’t represent real christians

    mostly they’re just having trouble adjusting to the modern whirl

    happyfeet (831175)

  519. elissa,

    It was a hypothetical exemption. kishnevi was discussing lawful actions, and I assume he would recognize religious exemptions — such as kosher delis shouldn’t have to provide non-kosher foods for customers. Maybe he doesn’t believe there should be any exemptions, but I think most people would agree there should be some limits.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  520. happyfeet,

    You are very entertaining but I think you do more harm than good for the issues you champion. Maybe you should revisit your mama’s advice.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  521. I really have trouble believing that anyone would insist that someone PARTICIPATE in an activity. Any activity. We don’t (can’t) insist that people stand during the national anthem. Their beliefs, even unstated, are sufficient to exempt them.

    Society should demand only that we are tolerant. That we accept that others may have different views of what constitutes matrimony before God. That we do not attempt to interfere. But it is a long, and abhorrent step to insist that people PARTICIPATE in other people’s religious ceremonies.

    I don’t even think you can make an atheist baker to make red and green cookies in December. Go find someone else.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  522. i will soon i promise cause i’m plum tuckered

    happyfeet (831175)

  523. No, kishnevi thinks that if the government labels you a public accommodation, you lose your consensual rights. And the discussion Patterico suggested was whether the government should have the power to do that. So that you don’t need a specific objection. “I’m free to love whomever I want and I’m free to refuse to cook for whomever I want.”

    nk (dbc370)

  524. OK, thanks for clarifying, DRJ. Since you had mentioned “cakes” in that sentence I assumed you were still talking about the subject at hand, but didn’t follow that since you were responding to Kishnevi you had moved on to Kosher delis!

    elissa (b44fa6)

  525. I agree with nk.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  526. DRJ, the difference is more basic.
    A kosher deli by definition does not have non kosher food to sell. A baker otoh is not physically limited to what he puts on his product.
    Therefore, the difference is between “I do not have it” and “I choose not to do this for you”.
    To combine them in one example, a Jewish baker should be concerned about the ingredients in his cake, not the words used to decorate it.

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  527. nk, you don’t quite get my point. It does not matter if the government labels you a public accommodation. You waive some of your rights simply by being open to the public.

    kishnevi (9c4b9c)

  528. Donations closed at 842,387. http://www.gofundme.com/MemoriesPizza

    nk (dbc370)

  529. You waive some of your rights simply by being open to the public.

    By what rule or reasoning? Or, in other words, sez who? I can understand that the sign OPEN and the door unlocked implies strongly that I will not charge you with trespassing. Beyond that?

    nk (dbc370)

  530. I always thought a better name for that site would be Gofundyourself.com.

    Gazzer (0f428c)

  531. With all due respect, happy, the Gospel According to Pikachu seems to be missing from most Bibles. However, far be it from me to attempt to explain what Jesus taught. Everyone from non-believing atheists to right-wing politicians seem to have that sown up. I can wait.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  532. It’s just a car.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qanlirrRWs

    That’s all it is.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  533. kishnevi,

    Under your analysis, if I wanted kosher food catered on Shabbat, then your kosher deli should have to provide it. Because it isn’t a question of whether the deli has the food, it’s a question of “I choose not to do this for you” on the day you want.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  534. Steve57, as a car guy still don’t “get” the whole drifting thing. If you wanna race, then go race…

    Gazzer (0f428c)

  535. elissa,

    I don’t agree with kishnevi’s analysis but I was trying to understand the limits (if any) of how his analysis works. It isn’t about cakes or delis, it’s about limits.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  536. mostly they’re just having trouble adjusting to the modern whirl

    Therefore, I post the snippet below as sort of a tribute to you, happyfeet.

    Your insistence that the GLBT community be given so much deference, so much benefit of the doubt, suggests you personally relate to people in that crowd, perhaps relate to folks like the former, now-deceased husband of the following celebrity. This should trigger the statement: “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.” (I’ll give you credit for at least never hauling out the overly imprecise if not flat-out wrong claim of it’s “not a matter of choice!”)

    abcnews.go.com, July 25, 2013

    Shirley Jones is best known for playing wholesome characters. The actress and singer stole America’s heart in the classic musicals “Oklahoma!” and “The Music Man,” and played one of the most beloved mothers in television history in the iconic 1970s sitcom “The Partridge Family.”

    But the Academy Award-winning actress is raising eyebrows with the revelations she makes in her autobiography, “Shirley Jones: A Memoir.” The memoir…delves into her affair with, and subsequent marriage to, actor Jack Cassidy, and also dishing on his sexual exploits.

    “Well Jack was…he did it with men and women,” said Jones, 79. “I mean he was, you know, he had an affair with Cole Porter and he told me about all this, by the way. I was very aware of all this. But he loved women!”

    She married Cassidy in 1956 and they had three sons.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  537. Christian. You should be against SSM marriage, because The Bible says marriage is etc.
    NonChristian. I don’t believe in the Bible. Have any other evidence?

    If the Christian has non religious arguments, then well and good. If not, then the Christian is simply demanding others conform to his beliefs.

    It is, as DRJ pointed out, really the reverse of the proponents of SSM demanding Memories Pizza conform to their belief about SSM.

    kishnevi (adea75) — 4/3/2015 @ 7:49 pm

    The false premise is that the Christian is telling the gay what they should do. That’s not what’s happening. This is not complicated.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  538. #556

    I should add that the ONLY person being told what to do is the Christian. Period.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  539. You waive some of your rights simply by being open to the public.

    Which rights and by which laws?

    Dana (5fc867)

  540. Gazzer, it wasn’t the drifting thing.

    It was the balls to the walls, 845hp, all wheels clawing the earth until it begged for mercy thing.

    I’ll try to be more unsubtle next time.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  541. Gotcha!

    Gazzer (0f428c)

  542. The Indiana and Arkansas RFRA fallout has, for all intents and purposes disappeared from the airwaves and the major media sites. Poof. As quick as the massive hysteria storm was made to blow, it has suddenly been subsided as if by an invisible hand and mutual agreement. I have never seen anything like it.

    elissa (b44fa6)

  543. Must be a big sale on gold heel shoes and mauve skinny jeans somewhere, elissa.

    nk (dbc370)

  544. When I link to these pictures…

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/19/video-undefined-19835E1700000578-836_636x358.jpg

    http://brightcove04.o.brightcove.com/77374810001/77374810001_700838940001_ari-origin29-arc-171-1291671345966.jpg?pubId=77374810001

    I am saying something about horsepower. A ship approaching 10k tons running flat out, haze gray and underway, with a bone in her teeth.

    No doubt the galley was serving up something delightful.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  545. The left got tired, elissa, or perhaps they saw the massive wave of push back and decided it wasn’t a win? Or maybe the gofundme numbers spoke loud and clear?

    Dana (5fc867)

  546. You waive some of your rights simply by being open to the public.

    Operative word: some. You have to treat all customers alike, so long as they don’t act like aholes, and so long as they pay. That does not mean you have to do all things. There may be words you will not put on top of a cake, or cookie patterns you won’t do, or maybe you just don’t like the color green. And maybe you just won’t serve OJ Simpson. So what?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  547. More likely not sitting ay their gubmint computers today cos of Good Friday or some reason equally lame. Kinda ironic in an Alanis Morrissette kind of way.

    Gazzer (0f428c)

  548. Bummers that Shakira went on to make this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmJHH026X0c

    Estoy aqui.

    All week.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  549. If the Christian has non religious arguments, then well and good. If not, then the Christian is simply demanding others conform to his beliefs.

    No, that’s not true. In fact, it’s the opposite.

    The Christian is not saying, “I don’t accept gay marriage, therefore you cannot get married.” What the Christian says is, “I don’t accept gay marriage, but you can go ahead and do it. Just don’t ask me to be any part of it.”

    What the non-Christian is saying is, “It doesn’t matter what your beliefs are. If you don’t conform to my beliefs, then you can’t be in business.”

    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89)

  550. #568.

    This. Why is this so hard to understand?

    The moment a single individual is forced to participate in a religious service he does not agree with, there is no religious freedom left whatsoever. Establishment of NOT-Religion is the same as establishing a religion.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  551. ABC57 is running scared now. They didn’t lead the 11 pm news with the situation and the only reporting they did was on the GoFundMe totals. This, despite the fact there was an LGBT choir who chose to sing in front of the pizzeria in an attempt to heal. The other three TV stations reported from the scene.

    My favorite reporting tonight was by WNDU. They, too, reported the massive success of the GoFundMe. But, being card-carrying members of the “context” and “fairness” media crowd, they had the reporter do a stand-up LIVE in the studio next to the anchor and they had a back and forth about how a different online fund raising effort in support of some LGBT cause was doing soooooo well! They were at, after two days, get this – EIGHT whole thousand dollars! I am sure you can all appreciate the equivalence.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  552. Menendez wishes he had friends like GoFundMe.

    mg (31009b)

  553. I got 1,297 upvotes at Reddit r/funny for this comment:
    Tripod-mounted crewed guns are the best guns to start kids with. Don’t need to worry about weight or recoil, the kids are strong enough to load them, aim them and fire them, and it teaches cooperation and teamwork.

    It was in response to this photo — a GI showing two *very* young Korean boys how to operate what looks to be an M2 Machine Gun. http://imgur.com/ULu3fDW

    nk (dbc370)

  554. looks like a no b.s. mom, nk.

    mg (31009b)

  555. Apparently, gay bakers are the absolute worst bakers in the world. I know this because gay couples refuse to use them for their wedding cakes.

    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89)

  556. And gay photographers can’t focus and gay pizzeria owners use frozen dough.

    Hoagie (58a3ec)

  557. nonono segregation is not the way we move forward

    but whatever we decide, nobody’s moving forward til the healing starts

    where dem pups

    happyfeet (831175)

  558. Evidently it is bigotry not to allow that stupid ideas are, in fact, profound.

    Everyone gets the same prize independent of effort, achievement, anything beyond fogging a glass.

    DNF (a644db)

  559. One time, I represented two lesbian ladies in a very difficult case. To make a long story short, we won and they were very happy with me. They wanted to give me a present besides my fee to show their appreciation. They said: “Mr. nk, we’re very happy with the work you did for us and we want to make you a present besides your fee to show our appreciation.”

    Well, there was something I wanted but I wasn’t sure I should ask. I said: “There is something I want but I’m not sure you’ll think it reasonable.”

    They said: “What? What? Tell us.”

    I looked down and mumbled: “I wanna watch.”

    They said: “What?”

    I said, more clearly: “I wanna watch.

    They broke into smiles, slapped me on the shoulder, and said: “That’s all after all you did for us? No problem.”

    It’s a Movado, I still have it.

    nk (dbc370)

  560. 575. Apparently, gay bakers are the absolute worst bakers in the world. I know this because gay couples refuse to use them for their wedding cakes.
    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89) — 4/4/2015 @ 6:12 am

    No, apparently they insist on them.

    O/T but the Navy is apparently awarding MA2 Mark Mayo the Navy and Marine Corps Medal. Posthumously.

    http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2015/03/fullbore-friday_20.html

    (the shooter) parked his tractor-trailer cab near Pier 1, was able to walk onto the pier and began heading up a ramp toward the USS Mahan when he was confronted by Navy security, said Mario Palomino, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service special agent in charge of the Norfolk field office.

    The man then got into an altercation with a female petty officer and disarmed her, Navy officials said. Palomino said Mayo stepped over the disarmed officer and fired his weapon at the assailant. He was serving on watch for the installation that night and came to help once he saw the civilian board the ship.

    Multiple pistol rounds were fired between the gunman and Navy security forces responding to the scene, Palomino said. The Navy has said previously that the truck driver fired the shot that killed Mayo.

    Rest your oar, Sailor. The man knows how to do his duty.

    The worst problem MA2 Mayo should have had to deal with that day in Norfolk should have been shipmates full of too much beer. Maybe a phone call from Security cuz a couple of deck apes booked a room at the Navy Lodge so they could smoke weed with a couple of high school girls (just go ahead and turn yourselves in, boys, if you’re that stupid).

    Everything changes. Things become clear; this day will not be like all those other days. What does Petty Officer Mayo do? His duty. The full measure of his duty.

    It seems appropriate to the topic because that really is what we’re talking about. Doing our duty, and not backing off.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  561. i think it’s seven kinds of admirable how you represented them lesbians Mr. nk

    very classy and professional

    happyfeet (831175)

  562. Thank you, happyfeet.

    Guys it’s not that they don’t want gay bakers or photographers. It’s that they want to convert straight bakers and photographers. In prison it’s called “turning the punk”. It starts with small contacts, intimidations and humiliations, and continues until total degradation has been achieved.

    nk (dbc370)

  563. 583. …It starts with small contacts, intimidations and humiliations, and continues until total degradation has been achieved.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/4/2015 @ 7:22 am

    Which is pretty much the plan the Obama administration has for America. Also known as the “fundamental transformation.”

    Steve57 (b69525)

  564. Speaking of total degradation, how’d those talks about Iranian nukes end up? I only ask because the Iranians haven’t released the cell phone videos of where they form a gauntlet and commit unnatural acts on Kerry and Obama.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  565. Marino and now Bryan, seem to ‘proselytizing’ their beliefs, which isn’t supposed to be their jobs, I compare them with Luciano and Gutman, at two different networks, who didn’t let the facts get in the way, of the Zimmerman witchhunt,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  566. All the while Kerry and Obama are begging for a deal. Any deal. Just sign a paper, Puhleaze!

    Steve57 (b69525)

  567. Kishnevi,

    since you believe that people give up their 1st Amendment rights when starting a business, does that mean that media companies must accept commercials that show abortions in all their glory or promote particular points of view that they disagree with and have declined to air?

    Where does the law state that opening a business repeals your constitutional rights? What rights are we permitted to keep and what rights do we forgo as subjects to the state?

    NJRob (d36337)

  568. Apparently, gay bakers are the absolute worst bakers in the world. I know this because gay couples refuse to use them for their wedding cakes.

    I know you’re being mainly sarcastic, but in light of gay males in particular being notorious for harboring lots of STDs, and male promiscuity in general (which is really off the scale when it comes to males amongst other males) coupled with the type of behavior where the concept of “cleanliness is next to Godliness” is flouted or sneered at, grimacing at the thought of one’s food being prepared by such people is not without foundation. Even more so if one is legally forcing gay bakers to accept one’s patronage. IOW, if the tables were turned, and conservative, Christian heterosexual activists wanted to mandate that liberal, secular homosexual bakers serve them, the right would be at a disadvantage even in that instance—and that doesn’t even include the specter of the baker sabotaging what he’s selling.

    I said, more clearly: “I wanna watch.

    They broke into smiles, slapped me on the shoulder, and said: “That’s all after all you did for us? No problem.”

    It’s a Movado, I still have it.

    LOL. But it illustrates just how much bilge exists in the “everything is the same, everything is equal” argument touted by the left, since even within the theoretical of “GLBT,” female homosexuality is less disturbing than male homosexuality.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  569. does that mean that media companies must accept commercials that show abortions in all their glory or promote particular points of view that they disagree with and have declined to air?

    Or does a bakery or restaurant have to cater to a group that practices wife-swapping? Or closer to the point, does a business have to cater to a wedding party hosted by a group of polygamists—which, btw, is not uncommon in the world of Islam?

    Mark (9e5f05)

  570. failmericans and their utter lack of comprehension of why they’re called “hospitality” industries probably helps a lot to explain the kooky enigma of why France is the number one tourist destination in the whirl

    hospitality is an ethos, not a sacrament you weirdos

    happyfeet (831175)

  571. France is very xenophobic, happyfeet. They invented the words “chauvinist” and “provincial”. Most people go there for the art and architecture not the people. Except the British. The British go there for something decent to eat and drink and to get out of the rain.

    nk (dbc370)

  572. i never been my whole life

    i’m not a little provincial myself truth be told

    i just get so excited when i get time to go see america i don’t even have a passport

    happyfeet (831175)

  573. don’t forget the 15-20% unemployment,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  574. Now, if you had said Greeks, you’d have been right on the money. “Stranger” and “guest” are synonyms in Greek. Literally. “I can’t go out tonight, I have strangers.”

    nk (dbc370)

  575. i’d love to go to greece so much one day

    it’s kind of daunting though

    there’s so freaking much to read before you go

    happyfeet (831175)

  576. 590. …Or closer to the point, does a business have to cater to a wedding party hosted by a group of polygamists—which, btw, is not uncommon in the world of Islam?

    Mark (9e5f05) — 4/4/2015 @ 7:45 am

    It’s not really about gay marriage. It’s never been about gay marriage.

    But then it was never about the Sudetenland.

    Also, I highly recommend the report on the shooting aboard the USS Mahan at the link. At least the Executive Summary. There are lessons in there that are useful no matter what line of work you’re in.

    At the very least if you’re skipping through life fat, dumb, and happy dreaming of unicorns and relying on security theater, it’ll bite you in the @$$ in the end.

    Petty Officer Mayo wasn’t the only one who was ready to stand his watch. Others didn’t pay with their lives, though. Perhaps because MA2 gave them the time.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  577. Not be get all Billy Jeff Clinton on you, but sometimes words do mean different things to different people. Take the word “secure.” What does “secure” mean?

    Well, if you tell some guy in the Army to “secure” a building he posts a sentry.

    If you tell somebody in the Navy to “secure” a building he tells everyone to leave and turns out the lights.

    If you tell a Marine to “secure” a building he levels it with artillery.

    And if you tell somebody in the Air Force to “secure” a building he takes out a lease with an option to buy.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  578. i’d love to go to greece so much one day

    Speaking of which…

    theguardian.com, November 2007: Athens in the age of Plato. A big city. A solemn trial. A man accused of attempted murder. He begins to tell his side of the story, how he got into a fight with some worthless creature called Simon. “You see we both lusted after the boy Theodotus…” he explains to the august judges. They nod sympathetically, as if all is now clearer.

    The secret of Greek homosexuality has only ever been a secret to those who neglected to inquire. The Greeks themselves were hardly coy about it. Their descendants under the Roman empire were amazed to read what their ancestors had written centuries earlier, drooling in public over the thighs of boys, or putting words into the mouth of Achilles in a tragic drama, as he remembered the “kisses thick and fast” he had enjoyed with his beloved Patroclus. The Romans certainly noticed what they called the “Greek custom”, which they blamed on too much exercising with not enough clothes on. Christians mocked a people who worshipped gods who kidnapped handsome boys like Ganymede, or who, like Dionysus, promised a man his body in exchange for information about how to get into the underworld. Nor was it forgotten in the Middle Ages, when Greek Ganymede became a codeword for sodomitical vice.

    And yet there was always another side to the story. We hear of laws that punished men who “mixed with” or even “chatted” with boys. Xenophon, who knew Sparta better than anyone, says that the Spartan lawgiver had laid down that it was shameful even “to be seen to reach out to touch the body of a boy”. Slaves called “pedagogues” – paidagogoi – were employed by Athenians to protect their sons from unwanted attention, and by Plato’s time there were some people who had “the audacity to say” that homosexual sex was shameful in any circumstances. Indeed Plato himself eventually made so bold.

    At one time he had written that same-sex lovers were far more blessed than ordinary mortals. He even gave them a headstart in the great race to get back to heaven, their mutual love refeathering their moulted wings. Now he seemed to contradict himself. In his ideal city, he says in his last, posthumously published work known as The Laws, homosexual sex will be treated the same way as incest. It is something contrary to nature, he insists, and although there won’t be laws against it, nevertheless a propaganda programme will encourage everyone to say that it is “utterly unholy, odious-to-the-gods and ugliest of ugly things”.

    What goes around, comes around.

    It’s not really about gay marriage. It’s never been about gay marriage

    In general, it’s about leftism or liberalism, and satisfying one’s ideological (and not sexual or necessarily social) urges or biases. It’s a phenomenon that, per the snippet above, predates our times, predates the US, predates the Bible, predates modern-day liberalism, predates modern-day conservatism.

    Nothing new under the sun, including foolishness—from the left.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  579. The Indiana and Arkansas RFRA fallout has, for all intents and purposes disappeared from the airwaves and the major media sites. Poof. As quick as the massive hysteria storm was made to blow, it has suddenly been subsided as if by an invisible hand and mutual agreement. I have never seen anything like it.

    the failmerican propaganda slut media disappeared ebola and bergdork the same way

    happyfeet (831175)

  580. they will still resurrect the meme, this weekend, along with the wonderful iran deal,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  581. The Indiana RFRA will probably make it into Obama’s next apology to the world about what an embarrassment America is.

    The horror! The humanity! Get off your high horse, Christians. You think ISIS is bad, burning downed pilots in cages, forcing Yazidi women into sexual slavery?

    Why, why…

    …people in Indiana think a pizza shop owner, all on his own, without the guiding hand of Lois Lerner or anybody qualified like that, should decide who’s wedding to cater.

    Happyfeet wants you to know if you are in favor of such anarchy you are worse than Hitler.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  582. maybe but you’d think they’d have the sense to wait til after easter

    happyfeet (831175)

  583. When will this scourge of Christians running rampant through the countryside, feeding the hungry without buying the nuns contraceptives, end?

    Obama: You think you’re a decent person, Christian? Look at that nun, who you have heartlessly exploited and left in danger of conception.

    Nun: Really, it’s OK.

    Obama: I’ve got your back. Don’t worry. I’m organizing the community to come to your rescue.

    Nun: No, really, I don’t want contraceptives. It’s against my religion.

    Obama: Dammit, what do you know, you primitive cultist. You should be thanking your bearded sky god I came along to save you from yourself.

    Nun: I took a vow of chastity. I really don’t need…

    Obama: Shut the #$$% up you bitter ^&&%$#%d clinger.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  584. Obama is such a nice guy, he doesn’t want anybody punished with a child. Not just his own daughters.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  585. If only he had felt that way about his parents.

    nk (dbc370)

  586. 504. maybe but you’d think they’d have the sense to wait til after easter
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 9:04 am

    Some of us will be shooting Somali pirates in the head on Easter.

    So it’s important not to wait.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  587. i thought the Indiana RFRA thingy was fixed Mr. 57

    thursday night I thought

    but for reals what annoys me most about the catering thing is that not even in bfe indiana does pizza deliver = catering, so these ignorant hateful hayseeds are just terribly confuzzled on first principles

    but also I thought crystal’s partner in christ Mr. clem kadiddlehopper’s comments were way more offensive than her own particular ill-considered slackjawed burblings

    “That lifestyle is something they choose. I choose to be heterosexual. They choose to be homosexual. Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?” says Kevin O’Connor.

    i think this is why this sort of thing provokes such a reaction

    almost nobody wants the Christian brand to stand for hateful ignant bigotry, especially most of us christians, which is a huge percentage of the audience here, so people don’t take it well when they see this sort of misalignement between the brand and their expectations

    it’s like what happened to starbucks with their weird race campaign

    happyfeet (831175)

  588. *misalignment* i mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  589. happyfeet, surely you’re not saying that 25% of convicted criminals in prison, and maybe as many as 40%, are naturally born gay who can’t help their gayness? Because that would be an interesting statistic — 3% of the population comprising 25%-40% of incarcerated criminals. It would also give credence to the mantra that gay is the new black.

    nk (dbc370)

  590. Maybe somebody can shorten those links?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  591. Yes, I know that that’s argument by ambush.

    nk (dbc370)

  592. i defer to Dr. Ben Carson on that issue Mr. nk

    he’s done his homework whereas I been playing video games and lollygagging aboot

    happyfeet (831175)

  593. Yes, but Dr. Carson focused on the gay and not the criminality. Are gays ten times more disposed to commit serious crimes than white heterosexuals?

    nk (dbc370)

  594. here you go daley,

    http://tinyurl.com/m4bj8gu

    narciso (ee1f88)

  595. Mr. feets, the Christian brand includes over a billion people.

    With that many people, eventually somebody is going to say something I disagree with. Perhaps even stupid.

    And you know what? If this is a theoretically free country you should be able to do that and own a pizza shop.

    Assuming what they serve resembles pizza; after the “Italian” place in Kansas tried to convince me the ketchup they put on my pasta was tomato sauce I can’t be sure what they’re passing off as pizza in Indiana.

    That wasn’t the worst; the worst was Austria, where some guy who had seen a picture of an enchilada opened a “Mexican” place in Salzburg. Stupidly, I went there. Pro tip: when in Austria, don’t go out for Mexican.

    All I can say is, thank the sweet Lord for Mickey D’s. No matter where you are in the world, you know what you’re getting.

    Except in India, where they don’t serve beef or the Hindus will riot. But if you can avoid India, and most do,…

    Steve57 (b69525)

  596. that wouldn’t be my first instinct, maybe strudel,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  597. happyfeet 609,

    If homosexuality is never a choice, then how was Buddy Fletcher a homosexual for 10 years and now he’s a heterosexual?

    DRJ (e80d46)

  598. sounds to me like Mr. buddy is a monogamous-minded bisexual

    i’m not gonna read the whole article cause of i don’t wanna get all up in his business

    but yeah this whole choice idea is silly

    but even if it were a choice the bigot pizza boy should make his stupid pizza for whoever calls the number and says hi I’m a need me some pizzas delivered

    oh and pro tip, pizza boy – it’s not real likely they’re ever gonna say and oh by the way this is for a gay wedding reception is there like a discount for that?

    yeah your job is to take the orders, make the pizzas, and hand off the pizza baton to your crack squad of pizza distribution professionals

    Neal Stephenson’s 1992 novel Snow Crash might could offer you some insight here pizza boy

    no there’s no movie yet you’d have to actually read it

    ok nevermind

    happyfeet (831175)

  599. 619. that wouldn’t be my first instinct, maybe strudel,
    narciso (ee1f88) — 4/4/2015 @ 9:33 am

    If you start the day with coffee and brotchen mit schlag and end it with gulaschzuppe and perhaps zwiebelrostbraten you’re pretty safe. In Austria.

    In my own defense, we weren’t there just for a weekend. I was driving around Europe, and after six weeks in the Alps the germanic thing was getting pretty old. So we were driving through Salzberg and we see this “Mexican” place and we think a change of pace would be nice.

    Actually, the worst was probably in Sienna. How does dust get on the inside of a wine bottle?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  600. To be fair, I’ve had some pretty bad Mexican food in Mexico.

    Actually, the worst Mexican food I’ve ever had was in Mexico. The Austrian dude would have to work a lot harder to equal it.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  601. Mr. 57 I’m not saying Clem can’t own a pizza shop

    I’m not saying Clem can’t discriminate on the gays til his lil heart bursts with the joy of it

    no pizza for you homos hahahahahaha

    no I’m just saying Clem is an an ignant bigot

    that’s all I’m saying

    people are imputing all kinds of stuff to my position here

    but it’s pretty simple really

    happyfeet (831175)

  602. an</strike

    happyfeet (831175)

  603. hmm.

    u know i mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  604. DRJ, Ellen Pao also just lost her discrimination lawsuit against Kleiner Perkins. I’m really not sure that there’s merit in using an article about these two people’s lives as examples of anything.

    elissa (ac90c9)

  605. feets, drop the fiction. “Clem” didn’t say:

    no pizza for you homos hahahahahaha

    In reality “Clem” said the exact opposite:

    The O’Connor family told ABC 57 news that if a gay couple or a couple belonging to another religion came in to the restaurant to eat, they would never deny them service.

    The LHMFM then spread a lie about them having a “no gays” policy because when ABC news barged into their lives and asked them, they said they wouldn’t cater a gay wedding.

    Which I’m sure is something they’ve never been asked to do.

    So why are you trafficking in a lie, Mr. feets?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  606. Clem is not comprehending the words what are coming out of his stripper-named wife’s mouth Mr. 57

    she says they would in fact deny service to gay people if they had just gotten married

    so this never deny them service thing just is not true

    happyfeet (831175)

  607. 624. that’s all I’m saying

    people are imputing all kinds of stuff to my position here

    but it’s pretty simple really

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 9:50 am

    Yes, it’s pretty simple. And you can’t get away with saying all you’re saying by denying the reality of it.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  608. If homosexuality is never a choice

    Fish. Barrel. Bazooka.

    Almost any statement that has “always” or “never” in it is trivial to disprove. There is always grey.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  609. u know i mean

    Still waiting for that EDIT button.

    Then again, what would Sammy do with an EDIT button? Maybe not such a good idea.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  610. 629. Clem is not comprehending the words what are coming out of his stripper-named wife’s mouth Mr. 57

    she says they would in fact deny service to gay people if they had just gotten married

    so this never deny them service thing just is not true
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 10:06 am

    More lies. Do the lies never end with you?

    They would not cater their wedding. They wouldn’t deny them service if they walked in the door.

    It’s the ceremony they have an issue with.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  611. So why are you trafficking in a lie, Mr. feets?

    A clumsy one at that. And he compounds it with spin.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  612. Yes, it’s pretty simple Mr. 57. I was raised up that it’s not up to us to decide who is and who is not worthy to enter the gates of heaven that we enter there by His Grace alone.

    It’s very arrogant for Clem and the pizza princess of the plains to make these judgements that these people over here are unworthy of pizza because of some hateful misunderstanding of how Jesus wants us to treat people.

    What they are advocating for is rank bigotry, and I will not accede to it. I will not condone it by my silence. I will not call it anything than what it is.

    THERE ARE FOUR FINGERS

    happyfeet (831175)

  613. hf, it’s like this. Suppose you suddenly found yourself face to face with Barack Obama (the secret service having utterly failed) and he put out his hand for you to shake. If you did not shake his hand, are you discriminating against black people? Or just an evil President who happens to be black? I could spin it either way.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  614. If homosexuality is never a choice, then how was Buddy Fletcher a homosexual for 10 years and now he’s a heterosexual?

    I recall Patterico saying a few years ago that one reason he was sympathetic with the concept of SSM was because (to paraphrase) sexuality was similar to, say, skin color and therefore wasn’t a matter of choice. To be precise, I believe he said that since he had always been attracted to women and never to men, that human sexuality therefore shouldn’t be treated like a case of free will, free choice. I was naive enough at that time to go, well, uh, maybe you’ve got a valid point there. IOW, I originally didn’t realize just how scientifically (not to mention socially and politically) valid and accurate a social conservative viewpoint was in regards to this controversy.

    Since then, coming upon further information such as that related to the history of Plato and ancient Greece (not to mention your link to the story about Fletcher) has made me even more respectful of so-called traditional, conservative thinking.

    BTW, the tale of two very talented, very smart people from Manhattan and Silicon Valey is so infused with the unstated liberalism that permeates those places — with the attendant amorality of bruised egos, suspicions of racism (real or imagined) and lawsuits galore — I found this detail about one of the two quite interesting:

    At a time when Harvard would not permit R.O.T.C. on its campus, Fletcher joined the Air Force R.O.T.C. at M.I.T. On a largely liberal campus, he was a staunch Reagan Republican. He was “a complicated guy,” recalls his former classmate Michael Meade. “There were a lot of competing forces there.”

    In the world of blue-berserk New York City, “staunch Reagan Republican” may mean merely a wealthy guy who didn’t want to pay “soak the rich” income taxes touted by most liberals/Democrats. Or a philosophy in general that’s squishy, squishy, squishy. It would be interesting to know the specifics of Fletcher’s politics, but I have my suspicions.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  615. == Clem is not comprehending the words what are coming out of his stripper-named wife’s mouth Mr. 57==

    Keven O’Connor is Crystal’s father, not her husband. Not that facts seem to make any difference around here anymore.

    elissa (ac90c9)

  616. Happyfeet is illustrating why I don’t judge people based upon what the press says about them.

    I know that they’ll interview somebody for six hours just to get the sound bite they want. five hours fifty nine minutes and thirty seconds ends up in the garbage just so they can get a quote from someone that’s embarrassing.

    Or, and a reporter told me this once, they’ll just make something up and put the words in your mouth. Thereby forcing a response.

    Ironically, happyfeet is complaining that people are doing that to him. While trafficking in a lie about the O’Connors.

    624. people are imputing all kinds of stuff to my position here

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 9:50 am

    629. she says they would in fact deny service to gay people if they had just gotten married

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 10:06 am

    The hypocrisy couldn’t be more glaring. I couldn’t even attempt it.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  617. Mr. 57 what does it mean to a cater a wedding if you’re a podunk pizza place

    it means after the ceremony you roll up and hand over some hot tasty pizza

    done and done

    it’s easy peasy puddin pie

    happyfeet (831175)

  618. no no no. You are not a dolt, why do you persist in this intentional misunderstanding?

    They don’t give a crap about who is gay or what they have recently done. They simply want to have NOTHING to do with what they consider blasphemy — a ceremony mocking God, as they see it.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  619. and for goodness sake the Republican Party needs to get more better hobbies than waving the flag for this newly fashionable cause of promoting this weirdo pseudo-christian bigotry and hate where we shower praise and monies on filthy bigots

    it’s obnoxious

    just hurry up and get it put of your system already

    happyfeet (831175)

  620. *out* of your system i mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  621. feets

    More simply since this hasn’t sunk in yet: “CATER” means going THERE, not THEM coming to you.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  622. feets, they’re not saying who does and does not get into heaven.

    They’re not even saying who does and does not get their pizza.

    They’re saying who does and does not get their pizza at a wedding.

    Hypothetically. There they were running a pizza (sic) place in East Bumb**** Indiana and all of a sudden ABC walks in and turns their life upside down.

    Then lies about them. To happyfeet’s joy. Because now he can mount his high horse about the dreaded judgemental midwestern pizza purveyors, the scourge of America’s heartland.

    This. Shall. Not. Stand!

    Nothing is more unamerican than the Bill of Rights. Why, the next thing you know these O’Connor freaks will think they can choose their own friends. Bigots.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  623. I like what Insty said the other day, about nothing the anti-gay-marriage crowd has said dissuading him from supporting SSM, but that the meanness of some of its supporters gave him pause.

    I find my self increasingly embarrassed to admit I favor SSM.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  624. What is wrong with being a bigot?

    Michael Ejercito (d9a893)

  625. and me I want to have NOTHING to do with what I consider bigotry Mr. M cause i believe Jesus calls on us to love our neighbors not treat them like how Mr. and Mrs. Kadiddlehopper do

    but i am not saying that they should be forced to do anything

    i’m just saying i think this couple is trashy and hateful and I’m not gonna give money to them for to reward them for their tacky hateful behaviours

    instead I used my bigot-rewarding monies to pre-order Jon Cryer’s new memoir

    that is MY choice

    happyfeet (831175)

  626. So much for being tolerant and forgiving. I guess your tolerance only extends to things you want ME to like.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  627. I find my self increasingly embarrassed to admit I favor SSM.

    this is Emma she’s a golden retriever she won’t judge you she likes it when you pat her head and she LOVES hugs

    happyfeet (831175)

  628. 632. and for goodness sake the Republican Party needs to get more better hobbies than waving the flag for this newly fashionable cause of promoting this weirdo pseudo-christian bigotry and hate where we shower praise and monies on filthy bigots

    it’s obnoxious

    just hurry up and get it put of your system already

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 10:21 am

    Why don’t you get a new hobby besides rooting out crimethink?

    Somewhere, somebody may be bitterly clinging to an unapproved opinion. But if they’re not, happyfeet will just say they are.

    There shall be no rest for the wicked. Or the merely silent. They will voice approval.

    Which is the point.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  629. Okay. This is Patterico’s blog. I am sick and tired of hearing a silly assed, intellectually lazy, and offensive bigot call other people a bigot.

    Period.

    Folks have a right to their opinion, but this is Patterico’s place.

    If he is okay with calling these folks in Indiana bigots, fabulous.

    But I am tired of hearing this kind of nonsense all the time.

    Your mileage may vary. But it really does make for an unpleasant party.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  630. why do you persist in this intentional misunderstanding?

    When it comes to happyfeet, it’s a case of “methinks he doth protest too much.”

    Even in today’s very libertine era, when standards and boundaries have been greatly loosened or totally shredded, how many people in general casually think that stating “I’m gay and here’s my husband!” is totally similar to saying “I’m a graduate of Harvard and here’s my Ferrari!”

    Simply put, even many liberals must sense that deepdown there’s something not all that impressive, all that laudable, all that commendable about homosexuality. Yet they love to insist or pretend otherwise, and demand everyone else act in a similar manner (ie, full of two-faced, phony-baloney tolerance, if not total hypocrisy).

    Mark (9e5f05)

  631. It’s very arrogant for Clem and the pizza princess of the plains to make these judgements that these people over here are unworthy of pizza because of some hateful misunderstanding of how Jesus wants us to treat people.

    This has been explained to you about a hundred times on this thread: the people at Memories Pizza were not saying anyone was unworthy of pizza. In fact, they said they would gladly serve anyone who came into the store. What they said was that they wouldn’t cater a same-sex wedding.

    It’s past the point where you’re merely obtuse on the issue. You are deliberately ignoring the facts, deliberately ignoring points against you, and deliberately lying.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  632. This reminds me of all the crap Billy Crystal caught when he made a comment about not wanting to watch too much gay sex on cable. He found out that was a hate crime.

    I don’t know where the hate lied. Was it not wanting to watch gay sex, or thinking that there is such a thing as too much of it?

    Eventually he was forced to apologize.

    To show my age, I recall how Bob Hope worked the fact Kali had legalized homosexuality into his act. He said he was leaving before they made it mandatory.

    Everyone thought he was joking.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  633. for goodness sake we’re like 99% in agreement

    we agree that people should be allowed to do bigotry on gay people

    we think the Kadiddlehoppers have every right to deny service to anyone they want on whatever whim they choose

    we just disagree as to whether or not this means they are good people

    and instead of taking the fashionable view that the Kadiddlehoppers are brave, nigh-holy stewards of Christ, I instead take the view that they are in fact tacky unchristian bigots

    which has been my position forever from the beginning

    happyfeet (831175)

  634. just briefly-
    perhaps we who are of the inclination, myself foremost,
    need to stop engaging feets in dialogue and pray for him, if we aren’t already

    he knows what the Bible says and thinks those who disagree with his revelation should change our minds so we can be correct,
    and if we won’t then shut up

    the advanced, scientific, nuanced, modern, enlightened view of the world which feets and others espouse has been proven true beyond even an unreasonable doubt,
    in some lab somewhere, maybe under the Swiss alps in a giant atom-smasher
    or maybe the Hubble telescope,
    or because every bit of DNA in any creature has a code that says,
    “We only look like we were designed, there is no god
    other than Richard Dawkins”

    and we are bigots even thought he says he isn’t calling us that

    and liberals get to tell us what we can and can’t say because they are right

    and yes, there are more important things than killing millions of babies and eroding the foundation of western civilization

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  635. Mr. Hope’s Toluca Lake estate is still on the market

    happyfeet (831175)

  636. Well, I know what kind of people insult others so easily, without bothering to get facts or thinking even a bit.

    But hey, I am always telling people what not to say—or so I am told.

    Which is better, I believe, than telling them what to think.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  637. 656. for goodness sake we’re like 99% in agreement

    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 10:38 am

    Except for the lying about people part.

    That’s kind of deal-breaker for me.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  638. Steve57, back in the day when Frank and Dean played Vegas, they would have a bar on stage. As he mixed a drink, Frank would ask, “How do you make a fruit cordial?” To which Dean would reply, “Well you could start by buying him a drink.”
    Simpler times.

    Gazzer (eae5fa)

  639. deliberately lying.

    He’d be an interesting case study of a person not admitting his own deeply held biases and embarrassment — even though his stated philosophy strongly promotes that everyone should behave just the opposite — if he’s had homosexual liaisons in the past or ongoing, but wouldn’t want to admit to that here in this forum.

    People who are excessively, irrationally, radically opposed to homosexuality have been portrayed as “closet cases,” and the opposite therefore should make as much sense and is no less applicable.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  640. hey Mark guess what’s in my pocket

    happyfeet (831175)

  641. Steve, it’s still more “clown nose on, clown nose off.”

    I don’t have to agree with the folks in Indiana to know that what happened to them was wrong.

    I don’t have to think much to understand the difference between selling a slice of pizza and catering an event.

    I don’t have to think much to have bothered to read about the facts in the situation, rather than lie about what other people believe, and what they have said.

    And I don’t have to think at all to keep from insulting people in some odd version of narcissistic self-regard…because I would have the courage to say what I have written above to the people involved.

    By the way, Steve, even when I don’t agree with you, I learn a great deal from your serious and thoughtful posts (as well as your funny ones). Which is the point of this blog, to me.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  642. you’re such a good person Mr. Jester I’m a be just like you when i grow up

    happyfeet (831175)

  643. You remain a jackass, sir. And I would indeed say that to your face.

    This is why I don’t care to interact with you. You lie about others, you add more to your lies, you insult people (including people I like and care about), and then claim you are a fine person with your silly juvenile act.

    You spit in Patterico’s punchbowl, who has been quite kind to you over the years.

    You should get your own blog and be a jackass there.

    But hey. That would take work.

    Me, I enjoy the folks here who try to discuss things with evidence, rationality, and kindness.

    Lots of folks don’t like me. I get it. Fine.

    But yes, I am a much better person than you, from what I can see. And I am not complimenting myself by saying so.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  644. Thank you for the kind words, Simon Jester.

    I learn a great deal on this blog, too. Often, from you, as you reveal the inner workings of academia. And life.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  645. oh my goodness that was vituperation, what you just did on my head

    happyfeet (831175)

  646. hey Mark guess what’s in my pocket

    Quite seriously, happyfeet, I have no doubt you wouldn’t hesitate to say — even in a non-anonymous forum (which this one isn’t) — that you have a girlfriend or wife. But would you be as similarly non-hesitant or equally nonchalant to say you have a boyfriend or husband, even in an anonymous forum like this one?

    Mark (9e5f05)

  647. for goodness sake we’re like 99% in agreement

    we agree that people should be allowed to do bigotry on gay people

    we think the Kadiddlehoppers have every right to deny service to anyone they want on whatever whim they choose

    we just disagree as to whether or not this means they are good people

    No, we are not in agreement. You are lying about the facts of the case, and deliberately misstating the arguments against you. The people in Indiana never denied service to anyone. Not once. All they said was they wouldn’t cater a same-sex wedding, but they said they’d serve anyone who came into the store. (Presumably, this means that the participants in a same-sex wedding can come pick the pizzas up, if that’s what they’re serving their guests.)

    You are deliberately ignoring the distinction between refusing to serve a person and refusing to perform a specific act.

    So, no, I am not in 99% agreement with you. Not even close.

    Patterico, I am done. Happyfeet chooses to lie and slander people, he ignores facts and rational arguments, all the while pretending to be interested in fair debate. I choose to no longer be a part of it.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  648. Mr. Mark I think we need to let things cool down here

    we can discuss this later on down the road

    happyfeet (831175)

  649. “Dr.” Mark, you’re not helping here and you probably don’t even realize it. Almost everybody else commenting on this thread is trying in some way or other to convey that they are not bigoted or prejudiced against homosexuals as individuals or couples per se, but that they are merely trying to distinguish between a pizza Friday night at Memories and a homosexual wedding celebration pizza catered *not* at Memories. Then, here you come again saying how icky it all is, and clucking about about Shirley Jones’ dead bi-husband, and the Greeks.

    Can’t you see that you are actually feeding the stereotype of intolerance that most others are attempting to quash –and so in effect you are negating their good arguments?

    elissa (ac90c9)

  650. I’m getting pretty tired of the subject of homosexuality. But again, that’s not really the issue.

    The issue is that leftists can not leave religious people alone. This is why, led by their grand master Obama, they have redefined to the First Amendment to substitute “freedom of worship” for the free exercise of religion. If you have the right to the free exercise of religion, then you have the right to your own conscience. Leftists believe they have a right to your conscience, not you.

    Which is really what’s upsetting happyfeet.

    Speaking of whom, the Bible actually says a bit more than lecturing Christians that they’re supposed to accept whatever happyfeet tells them to accept. There is actually quite a bit of wisdom in it.

    One of the thing it notes is that when people are doing something they know is wrong, they demand that others approve of it if not actually participate in it.

    I won’t note all the places where the Bible discusses the phenomenon.

    Romans 1:

    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Suppressing the truth means forcing people to tell lies. So all those thousands of years ago the Bible described the propagandists of every 20th/21st century totalitarian dictatorship.

    And liberal “tolerance.”

    Steve57 (b69525)

  651. and for all this, nature is never spent

    there lives the dearest freshness deep down things and though the last lights off the black west went

    oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs :)

    Because the Holy Ghost over the bent world broods

    with warm breast and with ah!

    bright wings!

    happyfeet (831175)

  652. As usual, I don’t agree with happyfeet and elissa, but I agree with Simon Jester and Chuck. Time to move on.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  653. DRJ–Whut!!!! I need you to explain that statement, please.

    elissa (ac90c9)

  654. Oh, and Amen MD 657. You test my faith but I will join your prayer for happyfeet.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  655. Almost everybody else commenting on this thread is trying in some way or other to convey that they are not bigoted or prejudiced against homosexuals as individuals or couples per se

    Elissa, that’s not my interest or intent. I’m pointing out the valid, rational reasons why homosexuality, but male homosexuality in particular, triggers a queasiness in many people, including among even various liberals or in a famous ancient philosopher like Plato (during his later years, after his youthful liberalism and naivete had abated). Reasons such as illness associated with gay behavior (ie, the notoriously high rates of STD), running in tandem with the extreme liberalism that infuses the GLBT community (but society in general) now more than ever before.

    I’m sick of and disgusted by all the political correctness run amok, and if not being politically correct is a sin (and sign) of intolerance, prejudice or bigotry, tell that to all the victims of Nidal Hassan, et al.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  656. i admire your manners, elegance with words, and compassion but you avoid questions intended to explore your positions. I think it’s because you don’t like to be challenged. I also think you tend to take positions based on perceptions, i.e., how politicians, Republicans, and commenters will be perceived. That is a short-term approach that I think will backfire in the long run.

    In addition, it shouldn’t matter whether we agree. The issue is the ideas, not the people espousing them. We are better off because of these discussions but only when our ideas are challenged, tested and explained.

    DRJ (e80d46)

  657. 672. “Dr.” Mark, you’re not helping here and you probably don’t even realize it…

    elissa (ac90c9) — 4/4/2015 @ 11:06 am

    I try not to encourage him.

    I don’t know if I’m making any of the good arguments that he’s negating, but it’s probably partially in response to him that I keep insisting that the issue isn’t gay marriage. On the other thread on the Indiana law I discussed the cases of the pharmacy regulations in Washington and Illinois, in which governors deliberately targeted Christian pharmacists with the goal of forcing them to violate their consciences or go out of business.

    What those case really highlighted that there just isn’t any compelling government interest that would allow government to substantially burden anyone’s religious beliefs. If there were to be such an instance, you’d have a better chance of finding one in the field of health care as opposed to catering.

    It just doesn’t exist. Yet, even though it doesn’t exist that won’t stop leftists from inventing one and insisting on it.

    I recall a case in New Jersey where some Catholic nurses had been fired because they refused to participate in abortions. They won a substantial settlement, because the law does say that health care professionals can not be forced to violate their consciences.

    It was interesting because it was revealing just how obsessed some people are about trying to find a way to force religious people to violate their beliefs (most are not as vocal about it as Blago, which as I commented on earlier really helped the case against his rules). The hospital kept trying to narrow the scope of what it meant to participate in an abortion until these nurses were forced to participate in just about every aspect of the procedure, from beginning to end, except for basically ripping the kid out of the uterus with their own two hands.

    The nurses insisted they wouldn’t help at all with anything. They were right; the law was on their side. But that didn’t stop the sickos in charge from trying to cook up a way to force their beliefs on these nurses at the expense of their own.

    That was also the interesting thing about the emails presented as evidence in the Washington state pharmacy case. The people there were consumed with trying to find a way to write a neutral appearing set of rules that mandated Christians to stock and dispense abortifacients. And the rule was neutral on its face. But as the judge noted, not in its application or its intent.

    The current cudgel the libs are beating on religious people is SSM. Other sticks include contraception and abortion. I don’t know what else is coming, but there no doubt will be something else. The left is imaginative and persistent. They will invent more rationales that allow them to track people down and force them to do things against their conscience. And if they resist having beliefs and practices imposed on them, the left will twist things around and say the judgemental god-botherers are forcing their morality on the poor gays or women or whomever the xtofascists will be victimizing next by just living their lives and trying to be left alone.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  658. i would shake his hand

    happyfeet (831175)

  659. Well said Mr Jester at 666, interestingly enough.

    Gazzer (eae5fa)

  660. I don’t know if I’m making any of the good arguments that he’s negating, but it’s probably partially in response to him that I keep insisting that the issue isn’t gay marriage.

    That’s a peculiar response because my angle is that the issue of SSM by itself doesn’t truly reflect the total, complete nature of the controversy of not just the government and legal contracts and laws, but the nature of homosexuality itself, and how THAT transcends the purely political and social.

    You seem to be instead implying that human sexuality shouldn’t be the center of the matter, which, if correct, means an alternative story of an owner of a pizza parlor in Indiana refusing to cater to a bunch of senior citizens (because they’re notorious for not tipping well) or members of the local college fraternity (because they’re notorious for becoming rowdy and drunk) should cause just as much ruckus — politically and publicity-wise — and make just as many people flinch — pro and con — for the EXACT SAME reasons.

    You’re also raising the matter of personal religious beliefs and how the government should or shouldn’t respect such beliefs. I’m saying that when it comes to “GLBT,” religiosity isn’t necessarily even the strongest or most compelling one affecting the issue of, for example, a small-town business (etc) and its private policies, since antipathy to GLBT extends beyond much of time and place.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  661. What can I say. I’m peculiar that way, and so are my responses.

    But no, SSM isn’t at the heart of the matter. Neither is homosexuality, nor the grand tapestry that is human sexuality in general.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  662. You’re also raising the matter of personal religious beliefs …

    Are there any other kind of religious beliefs?

    Steve57 (b69525)

  663. Steve57 (b69525) — 4/4/2015 @ 11:45 am

    They will, as history demonstrates, keep pushing until they run up against Rule-7.62!

    askeptic (efcf22)

  664. Oh, and Amen MD 657. You test my faith but I will join your prayer for happyfeet.
    DRJ (e80d46) — 4/4/2015 @ 11:22 am

    It’s also a reminder to challenge my own faith, irritation comes easy, loving behavior usually doesn’t.

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  665. Mr. Jester I’m a be just like you when i grow up
    happyfeet (831175) — 4/4/2015 @ 10:51 am

    may it happen soon…

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  666. Gay Newlywed: [ring ring] Hi pizza guy would you like to cater this wedding reception we’re at? We need like 20 pizzas please – sausage and jalapeno but not the mooshy pickled kind the fresh kind.

    Pizza Guy: Thanks so much for calling yes it would be our pleasure!

    Gay Newlywed: Ok you want my mastercard now we can go ahead and put a gratuity on there up front for the driver.

    Pizza Guy: Ok what’s the number and ex-date on that card?

    Gay Newlywed: It’s xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx and the ex-date is xx/xxxx.

    Pizza Guy: Ok got it see you in 45 minutes to an hour.

    Gay Newlywed: You’re awesome thank you SO much.

    Pizza Guy: No worries and tell you what I’m a send a guy over there right now with bread sticks so you have something to nosh on for the next lil bit.

    Gay Newlywed: Hey you guys he’s sending bread sticks! Thanks pizza guy!

    Pizza Guy: You’re totally welcome… and thanks again for calling!

    happyfeet (831175)

  667. @nk: Very clever use of ‘wanna’. In your situation, the contraction acceptable for ‘want a’ and ‘want to’ have very different outcomes. The first leaves you with only a Movado.

    Beasts of England (837c0b)

  668. ==In addition, it shouldn’t matter whether we agree. The issue is the ideas, not the people espousing them. We are better off because of these discussions but only when our ideas are challenged, tested and explained.==

    Exactly DRJ. That’s why your pronouncement at #675 stood out when you made it a point to say who you agree and disagree with without mentioning why or which particular posts (there are over 600 on this thread) you might be referring to. ==As usual, I don’t agree with happyfeet and elissa, but I agree with Simon Jester and Chuck.== Well gee.

    I am not buying your observation that I don’t explain things, or want to be challenged, or that I avoid questions designed to “explore” my positions. I will freely admit that I, as do most people I think, prefer reasonably civil conversational interactions rather than feel like I am being interrogated on the stand by a hostile prosecutor (as occasionally on other threads I’ve felt from your “questions”).

    I still don’t know what you “disagree” with me about, “as usual” but it’s not because I didn’t ask.

    elissa (171d46)

  669. Steve57@680 and 684–I appreciate that you apparently got the gist of the point I was trying to make in my comment to Mark.

    elissa (171d46)

  670. pickled jalapeños can be used in making adobo sauce, mixed with other fresh herbs the vinegar breaks down the meat allowing your herbs and spices to take hold. So back off on pickled jalapeños you pickled jalapeño hater.

    mg (31009b)

  671. i saw for the first time here at jewel where you can buy powdered jalapeno

    and it’s from some keeping-it-real line of spices not those one-percenter spices

    but I didn’t get it

    weirdly, i was looking for celery salt

    and NO DICE – they didn’t have none, unless maybe it was ensconced with them one-percenter spices (celery salt is a particularly chicago thing, but i like it for my micheladas not necessarily my dogs)

    i buy adobo in the can it’s kinda pricey and you have to be careful cause they have one that’s “medium” – who wants medium but it’ll sneak into your cart you not careful

    happyfeet (831175)

  672. one time when i was looking for spices this gay dude come up to me and he’s all hey I’m making lasagna for my big fat gay wedding what spices do you recommend?

    and I told him I’m so sorry but i cannot in good conscience recommend any spices for your lasagna

    and he was all like yeah my grandma’s like that with her lasagna recipe too – she’s gonna take her secrets to the grave!

    and we laughed

    happyfeet (831175)

  673. There’s a good article up at The American Conservative. It’s an interview about the hysteria on the left about this Indiana RFRA with a law professor at an elite university who’s deep in the closet about being a Christian.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-post-indiana-future-christian-religious-liberty-gay-rights/

    It’s not very cheerful. Neither am I, but I’m not even as pessimistic as this guy. But that’s probably because I don’t live inside the liberal bubble as one inevitably must if they are a professor at an elite university. It seems to me that the leftists have bitten off more than they can chew here. There will be a backlash.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  674. Are there any other kind of religious beliefs?

    well, there are the one’s the left wants to impose on all of us.

    green energy, global warming, gun control, “living wages”, SSM, etc…

    redc1c4 (b340a6)

  675. I saw that, too, Steve57 and I thought some of the attached comments to the piece were perhaps more insightful and thought provoking than the actual article. The contributor had some good ideas but his idea of increasingly bubbling Christian kids to protect them and close in the Evangelical culture (even maybe to the extent of arranged marriages) like the Amish or ultra Orthodox Jews do, seems pretty unrealistic to me. I hope Simon reads it and comments on it.

    elissa (171d46)

  676. But no, SSM isn’t at the heart of the matter. Neither is homosexuality, nor the grand tapestry that is human sexuality in general.

    So if the owner of the pizza parlor said he’d refuse to serve a wedding of polygamists (ie, 3 or 4 fully consenting adults residing in a totally stable setting), would you sympathize with, not sympathize with, or feel totally the same way towards the business owner as you do now?

    I have a hunch most people on the left would say (unlike the way they’re now responding) “sympathize with,” while many folks on the right would say “feel totally the same way.” Taking that one step further, certain observers on the right would also say the specter of a guy and two women insisting they be catered to at their wedding by the pizza parlor still would feel resentment towards them, but they (or at least me) also wouldn’t flinch quite as much towards them as I would towards two gay customers demanding the same thing. A small difference, but a difference nonetheless.

    Notice how such a difference in reaction is going to affect the way various jurists and politicians will judge who should get the benefit of the doubt, who shouldn’t. That’s why I think you’re being naive if you assume the issue of sexuality doesn’t enter the equation. And even if you mean “shouldn’t enter the equation,” you’re discounting the power of gut reactions. After all, “feelings, nothing more than feelings…” are more influential today (certainly among the left) than ever before.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  677. Mark, my position about the business owner would be exactly the same. When Christ talks about marriage he also provides a number.

    Matthew 19:6

    So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

    To focus on that icky gut feeling you have when it comes to teh gays, Mark, is to miss the point entirely. The left uses the issue of gay marriage because as far as they’re concerned their logic (or what passes for it) is unassailable.

    1) People are born gay.
    2) Therefore God made them gay.
    3) Christians are really going against God’s will when they refuse to get on board the gay marriage bandwagon.
    4) The only reason they won’t is clearly just bigotry and hatred and they don’t really love Jesus.
    5) So anybody who doesn’t drop their opposition to gay marriage and rewrite their Bible after Leftists beat them up with this ironclad logic is a moral monster and we can all h8 moral monsters and feel really good about ourselves.

    The left’s argument is based upon certain assumptions they make about sexuality and religion that they think is received wisdom. But the point is get to step 5, and the rewriting the Bible part.

    Step 6 isn’t up there. Step 6 would make quoting or belonging to a church that uses the unedited version of the Bible a hate crime.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  678. I haven’t read carefully and completely that linked article, but it may not so much be sheltering as allowing to thrive until the appropriate time.

    How many college freshman can deal with a philosophy class where the TA hands out an article “proving” there is no God?
    Few freshman will have had the background of a 500 level philos of religion class to call the TA on his/her intellectual dishonesty,
    and even if the freshman had the knowledge, is he/she going to engage the battle?

    Bigot in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84)

  679. @ DRJ,

    i admire your manners, elegance with words, and compassion but you avoid questions intended to explore your positions. I think it’s because you don’t like to be challenged. I also think you tend to take positions based on perceptions, i.e., how politicians, Republicans, and commenters will be perceived. That is a short-term approach that I think will backfire in the long run.

    To me, this is not a light statement to make about another commenter. Especially one has been thoughtful in her responses. I think it deserves an explanation: Did elissa avoid questions in this thread that reveal her willful avoidance of any challenge to expand on her positions? Where, if so? If you believe her to comment based on perceptions, please give an example. I can agree that I don’t always agree with her positions, but I can say, that I most assuredly re-think an issue to see why we might not agree. And I appreciate that intellectual stimulation.

    As elissa herself as inquired about your comment, DRJ, I think it would be polite and productive, and even positive for the blog to understand why you say this. Further, because I value both yours and elissa’s opinions and thoughts greatly, I would also like to grow from this.

    (Apologies for “talking” about you, elissa. I don’t like it when people do that on blogs, and here I’ve gone ahead and done just the very thing.)

    Dana (86e864)

  680. Today’s NYT gives the game away. (Via HotAir.)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-same-sex-sinners.html

    …But in the end, the continued view of gays, lesbians and bisexuals as sinners is a decision. It’s a choice. It prioritizes scattered passages of ancient texts over all that has been learned since — as if time had stood still, as if the advances of science and knowledge meant nothing.
    It disregards the degree to which all writings reflect the biases and blind spots of their authors, cultures and eras…

    SSM is not the goal. When you read the editorial you come to one inescapable conclusion. The goal is to say there is no God.

    Because if we know so much more than the authors of the Bible, then an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent Creator could not have had anything to do with it. Scripture is not God-breathed.

    That’s the paradox of the “Gay Christian” movement. Because what must a “Gay Christian” believe about Christ when he talked about marriage in Matthew 19?

    “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    Whatever it is, they can not believe Christ was who He said He was.

    I’ve read the liberal attempts to rewrite the Bible to make it “Gay friendly.” None of them make any sense. And it can’t be done. It isn’t just a matter of changing six measly verses, as the revisionists try to claim (by saying how few verses asctually condemn homosexual activity they’re attempt to diminish the issue). But it isn’t just those few verses. The whole thing is hostile to homosexuality, and is positive in its praise for heterosexuality (within marriage).

    Why? Because God created man and woman in His image. And when are man and woman more in God’s image then when they are in the act of creation themselves? And the act of creation produces more beings created in God’s image. The whole Bible teaches about the Creator’s relationship to creation, and marriage reflects that relationship. It’s not just a matter of changing or reinterpreting a few verses.

    More importantly, as I said, when Jesus spoke those words in Matthew He knew about gay people. And yet while he was on the subject of marriage and the Creator, he didn’t put in a positive word for gay marriage when he had the chance. And now the revisionists are claiming that’s because he just didn’t know any better.

    So he couldn’t have possibly been the God of creation. That’s the real objective; destroying faith, not SSM.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  681. Well, this thread was extremely productive on all fronts. 700 comments, and all we’ve learned is that everyone is angry with someone.

    Leviticus (95f6c5)

  682. DRJ, the difference is more basic.
    A kosher deli by definition does not have non kosher food to sell. A baker otoh is not physically limited to what he puts on his product.
    Therefore, the difference is between “I do not have it” and “I choose not to do this for you”.
    To combine them in one example, a Jewish baker should be concerned about the ingredients in his cake, not the words used to decorate it.

    I think this is symptomatic of what is wrong with our society.

    Again: as I said in the post:

    I have no. obligation. to. do. a. damned. thing. for. you.

    Period.

    I don’t care who you are. I don’t care what group you are a part of. If I have not made a contract with my employer, or with you, to do something with you, I should be able to tell you to get the hell out of my shop. Because you’re gay, or straight, or too tall, or too short, or because I don’t like the damned color of your shirt.

    Freedom.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  683. Well, this thread was extremely productive on all fronts. 700 comments, and all we’ve learned is that everyone is angry with someone.

    I had a thesis in the post. Care to agree or disagree?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  684. IOW, Leviticus, can you and I agree that the government has no business sending men with guns to point at people to force them to do anything for anyone? We are assuming here that there is no contractual obligation. Why does the government get to make anyone do anything for anyone, absent a contractual obligation???

    Patterico (9c670f)

  685. Patterico. Why do you hate STARVING BLACK CHILDREN???

    Gus (7cc192)

  686. We must force others to do as we see fit. Otherwise, we cannot control things.

    Gus (7cc192)

  687. 705. Well, this thread was extremely productive on all fronts. 700 comments, and all we’ve learned is that everyone is angry with someone.

    Leviticus (95f6c5) — 4/4/2015 @ 10:41 pm

    I’m not angry with anybody. Amused, perhaps. The Op-Ed by Frank Bruni in the NYT put a smile on my face. Because it’s so appallingly bad. I linked to an interview with a Christian law professor at an elite university in The American Conservative. I don’t agree with all of his views, but one area where he was spot on is that the elites can not comprehend religion.

    Frank Bruni’s Op-Ed provides the evidence. Nobody who had the barest grasp of Christianity could ever make the argument he’s making. He thinks he has a strong case. But in order to try and argue that the Bible must be reinterpreted to have a favorable view of homosexual relationships he has to attack the very notion of the divinity of Christ.

    Apparently Frank Bruni thinks its persuasive to undermine the very foundation of the Christian faith on his way to talking the bitter clingers out of their h8ey h8 and mindless bigotry. If Jesus was just some 1st century Jewish carpenter who carried with him all the baggage, blind spots, and biases of his culture and era then there’s no reason for anybody to have any faith in anything the Bible says.

    It seems to be an obvious point, but it escapes Mr. Bruni and the other revisionists who think we need to update the Bible based upon how much more we know about science and sexuality than that silly ill-informed Jesus fellow.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  688. Just an observation at a late hour:

    I’m afraid I have to side here with PP on this whole “I don’t owe you anything I haven’t previously agreed/contracted for”.
    As the sign says: The Management reserves the Right to refuse service to Anyone!
    Yes, it’s subjective – Deal with it.
    And there is that whole 13th-A “Involuntary Servitude” thing.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  689. To focus on that icky gut feeling you have when it comes to teh gays, Mark, is to miss the point entirely.

    Steve57, but in this era of political correctness gone berserk, the fundamentals of human nature — including what makes aspects of it “icky” (eg, the intrinsically ruthless, dishonest nature of various criminals—who are NOT necessarily that way because they didn’t get enough welfare or childcare when growing up) are often ignored or discounted. Moreover, when STDs, including HIV/AIDS, are known to be much more rampant among gays than straights, that of and by itself indicates the behavior in question — certainly since the left has turned health! into a form of devotion or religion — is potentially dangerous to one’s health.

    Another thing: Even quite a few “there’s no difference—we’re all equal!” type of liberals will hesitate to admit that, when it comes to their own children, particularly if they’re boys, they too will flinch at the notion of their young sons growing up to date and marry males instead of females.

    Mark (9e5f05)

  690. I don’t know how to get around a collective demand, enforced with the State’s guns, that a public accommodator must not refuse service based on DNA. As to behavior? Screw anyone who tells me that I can’t refuse service.

    A wedding is a behavior and it matters not the DNA of any participant. Period. You can’t rightly make me support said wedding with my goods or service.

    I would most welcome an outline as to how one can rightly, and separately, within the bounds of the constitution, refuse service due to skin pigment.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  691. Some historical input on religious freedom.

    http://pjmedia.com/eddriscoll/2015/04/03/building-the-hollow-men/

    DNF (a644db)

  692. I don’t know how to get around a collective demand, enforced with the State’s guns, that a public accommodator must not refuse service based on DNA. As to behavior? Screw anyone who tells me that I can’t refuse service.

    Simple. You “get around” it by not ordering it.

    Freedom.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  693. Mark @713, you’re losing sight of the forest for the trees. The Bible isn’t even as obsessed with homosexuality as you are. It only speaks about it six times, and then mostly in passing.

    There’s a reason for that. The Bible has a great deal to say about human relationships. In particular the nature of marriage. It doesn’t dwell negatively on aspects of human nature that must be resisted. All people experience desires that are harmful for them. I’d never suggest that the life of an active homosexual is anything but incredibly bad for you. From last summer:

    http://time.com/2975573/who-hiv-aids-gay-men-homosexual-epidemic-rise/

    WHO Says All Men Who Have Sex With Men Should Take Antiretroviral Drugs

    But all the desires the Bible warns people against are really bad for you physically, emotionally, and/or spiritually. But the Bible doesn’t dwell on the negative, as even the gay marriage/gay christian apologists will admit. In fact, they’re eager to tell you since as far as they’re concerned it’s a minor issue. But that ignores the many positive teachings in the Bible that are relevant to the issue. Which is why I brought up Matthew 19. Christianity isn’t just a dreary list of prohibitions and threats. Christianity also praises what is good. Very good, as God pronounced when he looked at creation. And as Jesus taught, marriage reflects God’s order of creation.

    This is what’s really under attack. There is no order of creation. There is no male and female. And most importantly there is no Creator. If you’re really worried about PC run amok focus on that. Because without a Creator who follows his own rules within creation (which is what made science possible within Christendom and no where else) there is no right and wrong. Then anything goes. Everything else you’re fixated on is secondary.

    Steve57 (b69525)

  694. 717. Good preachin’.

    DNF (a644db)

  695. 717 Cont.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/theology/secret-of-walking-with-god.html

    A religious minimalist, as I suppose Feets might fancy himself, is attentive to the events of his/her life in the context of their ongoing intercourse with God. People come into your life, events take a turn for reasons that become obvious as they recede in the rearview mirror.

    But this walk is best informed by consideration of relevant scripture and in review of earlier believers experience.

    It is crystal clear, despite ‘how he was raised’, that our moral betters are alone and unaccompanied.

    DNF (a644db)

  696. no, it does not, it does point out that sexual immorality, of all types, is a denial of god’s truth, they take it further in other faiths,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  697. #404
    Not going to argue with you. There is a lot about the economics of a small business that you do know or may not not know, but the way I put my post together had some words and phrases that were provocative in a negative way.
    I’m a better conversationalist one on one, in person, outdoors by the fire than I am on the keyboard and I appreciate the grace everyone here has shown.

    You likely don’t know as much about economics as you think you do… which is a good thing. For example how does one apply global free market principle to a particular small business in a highly regulated market? I don’t know. And if you do, good. If it turns out: “Hey, I thought I knew that but…” that is good too… something new to learn that fills in the gaps.

    The point is we all don’t know what we don’t know until someone or some circumstance points it out.
    I can’t presume you don’t know and then talk down to you on the basis of my presumption. It is an insulting way to converse, and if I think you don’t know something, I’ll try to lead you there and listen rather than presume you are a dumb shit that needs MY WISDOM!!!..

    steveg (794291)

  698. If the Christian has non religious arguments, then well and good. If not, then the Christian is simply demanding others conform to his beliefs.

    No, that’s not true. In fact, it’s the opposite.

    The Christian is not saying, “I don’t accept gay marriage, therefore you cannot get married.” What the Christian says is, “I don’t accept gay marriage, but you can go ahead and do it. Just don’t ask me to be any part of it.”

    What the non-Christian is saying is, “It doesn’t matter what your beliefs are. If you don’t conform to my beliefs, then you can’t be in business.”
    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89) — 4/3/2015 @ 10:45 pm

    Messianic Jew Michael Brown discusses B & H Photo and Video, a business owned by orthodox Jews. They are closed for all of Passover. Are they demanding others conform to their beliefs? According to Kishnevi’s logic they are, and I assume could be forced to remain open. He points out Hobby Lobby and Chick-fil-A are closed on Sundays. Are they forcing their views on people who want to buy their products on a Sunday?

    Gerald A (9d7d51)

  699. back when there were blue laws, the argument might have had currency,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  700. Gerald A@721
    they are forcing their beliefs on their employees.
    This goes for both B&H and Hobby Lobby.
    askeptic@712. Significant that they need to put up that sign. Because without it the law assumes they will provide service to anyone, no need to have public accommodation laws. Which was my original point…you provide service to the general public, you waive the right of association. Don’t want to waive that right? Find another line of business.

    kishnevi (9c4b9c)

  701. you provide service to the general public, you waive the right of association.

    So a bunch of, for example, Klanners enter a business you’re operating and “you waive the right of association.”

    Mark (9e5f05)

  702. “they are forcing their beliefs on their employees.”

    kishnevi – Unless Hobby Lobby only employs Christians and B&H only employs orthodox Jews, both of which would be discriminatory labor practices, I don’t understand you repeated use of this forcing logic.

    The employees do not make company policy. Owners and managers do. Employees are offered a package of compensation and benefits and depending on the company, a policy manual. Accepting a job is voluntary not mandatory. Your use of the word forcing is just stupid. People who choose to work at Hobby Lobby or B&H follow company policy as set by the owners, but working there is a choice.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  703. kishnevi – I also don’t understand how employees are being forced to believe the same things as the owners simply because a business closes on a Sunday or for all of Passover when they may not be may not share the same religion.

    Can you share some examples of beliefs being forced on employees?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  704. something positive

    back to the negative stuff:
    so Orthodox Jews are not allowed to own business since they will be closed every Saturday and at least the 7 Major Holidays?
    Amish and 7th Day Adventists are not allowed to own businesses since the will close every Sunday and on Christmas?

    yepp, this country is in a hand basket.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  705. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet, steveg. Watcha doing going to a KKK site, anyway?

    nk (dbc370)

  706. Gerald A@721
    they are forcing their beliefs on their employees.
    This goes for both B&H and Hobby Lobby.

    Are you kidding me? A company setting its business hours (B&H closing on Passover, Hobby Lobby closing on Sundays) is forcing its beliefs on the employees? By what logic? All closure on a particular day means is that employees stay at home. They don’t have to go to church or pray or tithe or anything.

    Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89)

  707. My parents were Teamsters and their contract included Good Friday and Martin Luther King’s birthday as days off or double pay. In the ’70s. No matter if you were a Buddhist or a Klansman.

    nk (dbc370)

  708. re #725: The story didn’t publish recently but about 2 years ago.
    http://tribuneherald.net/2013/08/23/kkk-wins-lawsuit-against-bakery-for-discrimination/

    and please not the sidebar:

    Tribune Herald is for satirical purposes only.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  709. re #731: actually it doesn’t make employees stay at home. employees can do what ever they want, just not come to the work place.

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  710. I think a good example of “reasonable accommodation of an employee’s religious beliefs” is in the movie Major League. The Haitian guy wants to sacrifice a chicken to his voodoo doll and the other players bring him a bucket of KFC.

    And when he tells the voodoo doll “I better not strike out today or you and I are through” (roughly), that would make a semester’s worth of Comparative Theology.

    nk (dbc370)

  711. And for those who want to help the cause of religious people being persecuted for not doing services that would violate their beliefs but think the pizza is more than big enough,
    referred friend and customer to other florists to provide for a same-sex wedding and got sued for it

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  712. “A company setting its business hours (B&H closing on Passover, Hobby Lobby closing on Sundays) is forcing its beliefs on the employees?”

    Chuck Bartowski – How would the owners of a business make sure its employees believed the way wanted to force them to believe? Periodic lie detector tests, other interrogation methods, loyalty oaths?

    Pure paranoid persecution complex crazy talk.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  713. There was no mail delivery last Friday. The U.S. Postal Service was forcing its beliefs on me!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  714. It’s not just the owners’ beliefs. It largely depends on the business, itself, too, doesn’t it? Just like it’s supposed to work–and why it is they are choosing to close on a holiday. Maybe they know from past years that there will be insufficient business or trade on Passover or Easter to warrant even keeping the heat and lights on at that time in that location. Or, maybe it’s respect for their employees—I saw several retail establishments in my area which would normally be open for business on Sunday had notices on their doors or in ads that they’d be closed on Easter Sunday so their employees could be with their families on Easter. Yet other establishments didn’t close, but like the lovely Italian place where we had brunch after church yesterday, was extra-staffed up on Easter to accommodate the hoards of noon time diners who came in with their multi-generation families all wearing their Easter finery. At the Walgreens I stopped at on the way to church, of the three cashiers on duty one was a Muslim woman in headscarf, one appeared to be an Indian man, and one was a young undetermined origin/faith-nofaith/creed/ whitish person. I imagine all three of these employees were pleased to be getting some sort of hourly bonus for working on a day when other employees were given the opportunity not to work.

    elissa (3a50fb)

  715. elissa – I’ve always found United Way campaigns the most intrusive ways management has tried to impose or force participation in endeavors on employees.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  716. i seem to be missing something here: how are United Way commercials intrusive?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  717. seeRpea – It’s not the commercials, it’s managers arm twisting employees to get 100% participation.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  718. re #742: What? okay, i’m really missing something here. What are you talking about?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  719. It’s not the commercials. It’s working at a company where employees are seriously leaned on by their superiors to contribute to United Way (“we don’t want our department to look chintzy compared to other departments, now do we?”) and then finding out later that the money you donated is being doled out to some charities you might not choose on your own, or that the officers’ salaries or overhead costs of that organization or charity are way out of kilter with the amounts of donations that actually ever get to help actual people.

    elissa (3a50fb)

  720. how would superiors know who you donated / gave charity to?

    seeRpea (c1462d)

  721. I think you need to read up and do some research on what corporate United Way is and how it works, seeRpea.

    elissa (3a50fb)

  722. http://www.unitedway.org/partners/corporate-partners/ ?
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Way_of_America ?

    I don’t see anything at either page.

    seeRpea (e6cc4b)

  723. Chuck Bartowski – How would the owners of a business make sure its employees believed the way wanted to force them to believe? Periodic lie detector tests, other interrogation methods, loyalty oaths?

    Context is everything, daleyrocks.

    I was not saying that Hobby Lobby was forcing its beliefs on its employees. I was questioning kishnevi’s assertion that it was doing so.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  724. hmmm …
    I searched for “how does corporate United Way work” and think i understand more.
    Companies match donations of the employees if the employee donates to a United Way charity.
    is this deducted from the pay check so that employer knows?

    seeRpea (e6cc4b)

  725. Sigh. When an employee uh “voluntarily” pledges his donation during a corporate United Way campaign at his company, the designated amount or percentage “pledged” is withheld from his weekly or monthly paycheck and put in the big United Fund pot along with all employees’ pledges. The employee never sees the money again and with only minor exceptions has no control or decision making influence over which charities the money is doled out to as part of the large combined donations which are announced with great fanfare by the company.

    Some people clearly appreciate the convenience of a bulk donation to charity and are not too concerned where the money goes as long as they get their tax deduction. Many of us, however, resent the pressure of a corporate United Way campaign and prefer to choose to decide for ourselves which charities and causes we want our money to support, and prefer to make individual donations.

    elissa (3a50fb)

  726. “I was not saying that Hobby Lobby was forcing its beliefs on its employees.”

    Chuck Bartowski – You and I are on the same page.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  727. daleyrocks, you are herewith assigned to address any further United Way issues since I am taking off early to go watch my team’s opening day game with fellow travelers at Buffalo Wild Wings.

    elissa (3a50fb)

  728. Gerald A@721
    they are forcing their beliefs on their employees.
    This goes for both B&H and Hobby Lobby.
    askeptic@712. Significant that they need to put up that sign. Because without it the law assumes they will provide service to anyone, no need to have public accommodation laws. Which was my original point…you provide service to the general public, you waive the right of association. Don’t want to waive that right? Find another line of business.

    kishnevi (9c4b9c) — 4/5/2015 @ 6:31 pm

    So therefore it should be illegal for them to close their business those days! And I suppose at least some orthodox Jewish employees have to be forced to work those days. In order for them not to be forcing their beliefs on anyone. How bizarre.

    Gerald A (6b504a)

  729. my cousin’s wife’s sister was forced to sew the tags into a sweater Scott Walker got at Kohl’s what he later left in some carryon luggage he accidentally forgot on a plane one time that was found by a gay dude what wore it to do a cake tasting for his wedding at a gay-friendly bakery

    where dem pups

    happyfeet (831175)

  730. #731

    Releasing my inner klansman…

    I guess I am enough of a dupe to believe that the ACLU could coerce a black bakery to bake a klansman cake. It is a cake with the brown frosting oppressed between layers of tasteless white cake

    steveg (794291)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 1.9879 secs.