Patterico's Pontifications

2/18/2015

Critical Thinking, RIP

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:50 am



The Guardian:

Bryan Stevenson: If it’s not right to rape a rapist, how can it be OK to kill a killer?

I don’t know, Bry. If someone locks people in a small room for several years, what would you suggest as a punishment?

42 Responses to “Critical Thinking, RIP”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Where Great Britain used to be never was.

    nk (dbc370)

  3. i reject the premise

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  4. If it’s not right to take someone’s property without just compensation, how can it be ok to fine shoplifters?

    JVW (6adc73)

  5. “Killing a killer to show killing is wrong,” as they say. So by the same logic, incarcerating is holding someone against their will–kidnapping. So kidnapping a kidnapper to show that kidnapping is wrong.

    Jim (0b8056)

  6. I would not object to impalement for rapists. It was the form of execution for common criminals in Socrates’s Athens, even if Dracula is the one who made it famous.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. I’m opposed to the death penalty too, but I hate being lumped in with bleeding hearts like Bryan Cranston. Here’s a snippet from the article:

    This guard who I write about hadn’t thought about what it was going to be like to get the family members of this condemned man to basically walk away from him so he could be strapped in the electric chair. The intensity of the emotions of the family members – he had just been married and his wife grabbed him and would not let him go – sobbing and the intensity of that, was completely unnerving to these corrections guards who were being ordered by other people who were far enough away not to hear the sobbing – the pain of trying to pull these people away. [emphasis added]

    You know, here’s an idea: let’s put a eff’in end to allowing people on death row to marry. Are there any sane men or (mostly) women who marry a death row inmate? I think it is either some deep-seated emotional problem or a desire to exploit the circumstances when people marry someone serving a life sentence or on death row. Witness the recent Charles Manson situation.

    JVW (6adc73)

  8. If it’s not OK to spy on other people, how can it be OK be be a journalist?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  9. I’m with happy here. Why is it not OK to rape a rapist. Give the lady a broom handle and let her go to work.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  10. Bryan Cranston

    I think that was Bryan Stevenson. Heisenberg was not a bleeding heart.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  11. I think that was Bryan Stevenson. Heisenberg was not a bleeding heart.

    Huh. I don’t even watch that show and yet somehow his name was on my mind. Weird how popular culture can permeate in your subconscious even if you try to tune it out.

    JVW (887036)

  12. Vox needs to hire Bryan Stevenson.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  13. JVW,

    It’s a good show. Really it is. Perhaps the best TV show ever, taken as a whole. Better than The Wire. For a long time I thought I wouldn’t like it, as drugs are a topic I generally avoid. But it pulls you in and doesn’t let go.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  14. Patterico
    Bryan Stevenson would ask for credit for any time served in custody be it hours or days, and might agree to 1 year probation.

    Raping rapists isn’t the same as dealing the death penalty for only the most egregious examples such as murder/rape/torture, killing the entire family including the baby, executing the entire staff of a fast food place after raping the males and females.

    My biggest problem with all of the comments about it being OK to rape rapists is the epidemic of crazy college coeds accusing guys of rape when it turns out they are angry or jilted or delusional, or “raising awareness” or “defying the patriarchy”.

    steveg (794291)

  15. Critical thinking died a long time ago, obviously.

    I recall some anti-corporal punishment crusaders claiming on some talk show that if you spank your child then your kid will grow up thinking that if you’re bigger and stronger it’s OK to hit other people.

    When a parent asked what she should do, then, if her child was making a scene in a store they said to pick the kid up and go back to the car.

    OK. Got it.

    We don’t want the kid to grow up learning that aggravated assault is OK if you can get away with it.

    We want the kid to learn that kidnapping is OK if you’re big and strong enough to get away with it.

    There are arguments against spanking. That’s not one of them.

    Steve57 (6b5a38)

  16. steveg–

    I think that we here know what rape is, and differentiate it from “not calling her like you said you would.”

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  17. My only problem with the death penalty is that we take too long to implement it. Thirty years on death row getting fat is no deterrent. If it were immediately imposed, as it used to be, then maybe some folks would think twice.

    Gazzer (c2a866)

  18. It’s a good show. Really it is. Perhaps the best TV show ever, taken as a whole. Better than The Wire.

    I don’t doubt it, but I fundamentally refuse to make the commitment to watch a TV series. I know one hour per week isn’t much, but if you watch all of the good shows on the free channels and then go Netflix to get all the good shows on the premium channels, pretty soon that’s several hours of episodes per week. And I can’t have that kind of commitment during baseball season.

    But I did see an episode of the BBC’s reboot of Sherlock Holmes with Benedict Cumberbatch, and it is pretty freakin’ awesome.

    JVW (887036)

  19. I watched it for a while, commercial free on Netflix. It wore thin once its novelty did. Drugs are not romantic. Drug dealers are not romantic.

    nk (dbc370)

  20. I get almost all my entertainment for free from the local library. More people should use that resource.

    Gazzer (c2a866)

  21. Justified

    mg (31009b)

  22. Excellent show. Fave top two, Rockford Files apart, probably The Shield and Deadwood in no particular order.

    Gazzer (489ada)

  23. Don’t watch TV except football and Pawn Stars.

    Keeping my sanity better that way.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  24. Doc, the key is to not watch network rubbish. Basic cable is producing excellent work and has been for some time, particularly FX. As noted above, I get them from the library and watch them on my schedule.

    Gazzer (489ada)

  25. Almost everything that government does is an infringement on your liberty–if it weren’t, government wouldn’t need to do it, it would already be being done.

    We accept these infringements either because we are compelled to, or because we agree with them.

    In a democracy we have a third reason to accept them, that we were able to participate in the decision in some way, maybe only by our acceptance of the existence designees who may make these decisions.

    Stevenson’s argument against the death penalty is an argument against government. This is rather like arguing for the legality of abortion-on-demand by arguing for the legality of killing anyone on demand.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  26. Those that cannot abide by the restrictions involved in the Social Contract that his ruled (waxing and waning) mankind for millennia, need to be cast out of that society with extreme prejudice.
    This is one stark instance where the welfare of the many overrule any individual right – it is a matter of self-survival writ large.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  27. Gazzer, I have to find time with the to-read book stack. Life is too short for TV. I am thinking of rereading “The Collapse of the Third Republic “ which is in my book case. It has disturbing similarity to our present government.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  28. This is rather like arguing for the legality of abortion-on-demand by arguing for the legality of killing anyone on demand.

    That’s a great point. Years ago P.J. O’Rourke had a great thought on abortion and the death penalty. He said [paraphrasing] that it was understandable to be in favor of both or opposed to both; and you could make a religious or morality-based argument on permitting the death penalty but opposing abortion; but only a liberal could be in favor of killing an unborn infant but not a child rapist/murderer. He often used a version of the following line when arguing against feminists, “Hey, I’m in favor of abortion too! Especially if it’s retroactive.”

    JVW (887036)

  29. More corollary logic: “If it’s wrong to waterboard a terrorist, then it must be okay to kill him in the desert with a drone” or “since I myself am not a greedy billionaire like the evil Koch brothers (totally leaving aside George Soros, et al), whatever I say must hold unassailable moral weight” or “If a tree falls in the forest but does not take out a conservative in the process, is it still capable of bearing good fruit?” or “if the moral premise can be stated in the form of a pithy bumper sticker or tweet, then it’s worthy of ruling our lives”

    Wile E Coyote "SUUUPER"genius (513e4d)

  30. Fair point, Doc.

    Gazzer (4b106b)

  31. KevinM
    I know that you aren’t too dumb to know what is and what is not rape. Apologies if I left you with the impression that I think you are stupid.

    My main point is better put as a desire for some feminist college girls to spend a couple weeks in jail for false charges. Maybe have their reputations destroyed and be expelled from school.

    Somehow it doesn’t seem enough, because rape is such an awful awful crime. Being beaten and raped is a physical and emotional disaster, it destroys physical health, creates loss of self esteem and of any sense of security, creating a lifetime of fluctuating levels of PTSD and anger.
    When I read about the rapes ISIS members commit, I want their victims to have at them however they choose, and then burn those *bleepers* alive… a piece at a time for all I care.

    steveg (794291)

  32. Many if not most people who commit crimes do so without giving a lot of thought to the punishment they might receive because they think they are too smart to get caught. The catching and the resulting punishment were not part of their plan, providing there was a plan at all.

    One serious benefit to the death penalty is that the offender does not become a repeat offender. Since rape, real rape – not the collegiate version – is often done by repeat offenders, a return to the death penalty for such offense might bear reconsideration. I believe Carroll Chessman was the last in CA to get the fumes for rape unaccompanied by a murder.

    RE entertainment… Good shows on free TV? Verily ye jest. Breaking Bad was really something, but The Wire approached documentary status… Don’t forget Lonesome Dove.

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  33. “If it’s not OK to spy on other people, how can it be OK be be a journalist?”

    I’ll one-up you there:

    If it’s not OK to tell lies, how can it be OK be be a journalist?

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  34. If a rapist rapes a young child, it might be ok to kill a rapist. Not so sure about raping a murderer, though…

    neocon_1 (a253a4)

  35. What really annoys me the most about people like Bryan Stevenson is they believe their take on capital punishment originates from a humane, loving part of their heart. If they instead deemed their opinion as being triggered by pangs of ruthlessness and brutality (ie, towards the innocent human lives snuffed out by murderers, and lives such killers may possibly snuff out in the future), I’d have less problem with their idiocy.

    Mark (c160ec)

  36. the thing about Walter White, is his product was corroding his values, much like the toxic chemicals in it’s manufacture,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  37. Is it a coincidence that Stevenson’s outfit is a Open Society (Soros) project?

    narciso (ee1f88)

  38. And if someone sells heroin, the government should sell them heroin, mabe.

    David Pittelli (b77425)

  39. Raping a rapist will not prevent him raping again. Killing a killer bloody well DOES prevemt him from killing again. The question is not, do we kill a killer. The question is, how do we make sure we DON’T kill an innocent man.

    C. S. P. Schofield (002b7e)

  40. @39 The question is, how do we make sure we DON’T kill an innocent man.

    The flip side to that question is, how do we make sure the guilty person we didn’t kill doesn’t go on to kill more innocents?

    It’s cost-benefit on both sides. Reducing the risk of executing the innocent to zero necessarily implies that innocents will die because we don’t execute the guilty. Even if they stay in prison, they kill guards, each other, the connected ones order hits, they escape, or later judges or governors set them free to kill again (the state of Washington is looking at you, Mike Huckabee).

    Innocent people die all the time. That can’t paralyze us into inaction, that’s no better than saying “can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs”. We have to take the course that minimizes the overall harm to society, not that minimizes harm to defendants.

    Gabriel Hanna (a1cb3f)

  41. Because Raping a Raper will not prevent them from
    Raping Again, But if you Kill Killers you never have
    to worry about repeat offenders

    Dan Kauffman (11707a)

  42. Some more questions on the topic of critical thinking:

    How does letting in millions of illegal invaders protect the country?

    How does taking away the people’s right of self-defense protect them?

    Annie Moss (7aeb38)


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