Patterico's Pontifications

1/13/2015

Kurt Schlichter: There Are Decent and Brave Muslims Fighting With Us Against the Terrorists

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:24 am



Kurt Schlichter, the now-retired Army Colonel who writes columns for TownHall, is no pacifist. (He is also a great dinner companion, as I learned Sunday night when I had dinner with him, Ed Morrissey, Andrew Malcolm, Stephen Kruiser, Joel Pollak, and spouses.) His latest TownHall column advocates dealing with radical Islamic terrorists by killing each and every last one of them. The philosophy is simple: Carthago delenda est. Kurt hasn’t just flapped his gums about this, either. He’s been out there fighting the fight, in Desert Storm and other operations.

So Schlichter has some credibility when he says there are Muslims out there fighting on our side:

That leads to the second part of the pen/influencing effort, that of the Islamic world. While it is a lie to say that the terrorists have nothing to do with Islam, it is also untrue to say that all Islam supports the terrorists. All Muslims don’t believe in this jihadi idiocy. In fact, right now – as they have for years – decent, brave Muslims are fighting side by side with our troops against jihadi morons. To ignore that is not only a shameful betrayal of our allies but a foolish squandering of a valuable weapon against extremism.

And good Muslims are fighting back. We waited for years for reasonable, rational Muslim voices to make themselves heard, and it has happened. Egypt’s President al-Sisi – you know, the guy who screwed up President Obama’s plan to turn the most important country in the Middle East over to the Muslim Brotherhood – went in front of Islam’s most noted scholars and chewed them out. He called for a rethink and reexamination of Islam, pointing out that jihadi foolishness was turning the Muslim world into a pariah. That’s huge, but few know about it because of both the focus on the murders in Paris and the general cluelessness of our media.

I thought this was worth passing along, in an era when some people seem to argue that Islam itself is the problem, and that every Muslim on earth is the problem. They’re not.

296 Responses to “Kurt Schlichter: There Are Decent and Brave Muslims Fighting With Us Against the Terrorists”

  1. When you’re in a battle, use your allies.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. It may or may not be a difference in perspective or only the words that are used,
    but some would say “Islam” as an ideology/theology is a problem, and that inherent in it are elements that lead to the practices of “extremists”,
    but that Moslems, as people, are not necessarily a problem, because they do not believe all that some say the Koran and other writings of Islam teach about jihad, etc.

    This is why I’ve said that, as others have said, we do not have to commit “cultural suicide” by letting advocates of imposing sharia on us free reign to take over our society, but there are also many who consider themselves Muslim who are very happy living in the US and participating in maintaining a pluralistic country.

    I would never say that “Islam is a religion of peace” as even President Bush has said, but I would also never say that “all Muslims are our enemies”.

    If one argues that the Islamic texts and Christian texts are taken most “literally” in a wooden sense ignoring context (as opposed to “authoritatively”), you get adherents of Islam doing violent jihad and you get Christians who are homeless and pacifists to the point of no self defense or defense of innocents. That said, taking context into account you get Christians who do not make a priority of growing wealth and are against violence except in protecting innocent life, and I think you still get a number of Muslims believing in jihad, but not all who call themselves Muslims do.

    Freedom of religion is not absolute. On the extreme, we as a society would not condone human sacrifice (at least not for humans that have been born), or the forcible seizure of another’s property. Where some versions of the belief of Muslims condone such things, they should not be tolerated.
    I imagine the legal arguments would center around what is protected speech and what is inciting a riot.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  3. i like to team up with muslims to fight crime

    together we’re cleaning up the streets and taking back the city

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  4. == decent, brave Muslims are fighting side by side with our troops against jihadi morons. To ignore that is not only a shameful betrayal of our allies but a foolish squandering of a valuable weapon against extremism.==

    During the discussion, Patterico, (it sounds like you had a remarkable evening, BTW,) did Schlichter offer any thoughts on the handling and impact of the FT. Hood- Nadal Hassan deal? In my opinion, that single horrific deadly event, the later disclosures of how many warning signs there had been, and the ridiculous way the government handled the “workplace violence” business, makes it hard to believe that our front line troops of any faith or creed can be very confident of who has their backs and who is fighting bravely along side them, versus who is infiltrating them to deceive.

    If the army and the U.S. government and other governments wants to keep from squandering the services of brave allies both here and abroad they need to do a better job of vetting.

    elissa (e73263)

  5. Greetings:

    The referred to Muslim may well be fighting with us against the terrorists but are they fighting with us against the Islam ???

    Islam is the millstone. It is nothing more than the globalization of 7th Century A.D. (if I may) predatory Arab tribal culture under a thin veneer of religion. And if your plan doesn’t include constraining, undermining, or eradicating Islam you don’t have a plan. What you have is a hope.

    Root and branch, Islam needs to be attacked. It is the seedbed of the jihad.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  6. I thought this was worth passing along, in an era when some people seem to argue that Islam itself is the problem, and that every Muslim on earth is the problem. They’re not.

    You’re killing me, Patterico. If Islam isn’t the problem then why are we discussing Islam and not say, Presbyterianism? Why aren’t Hindus shooting up cartoonists? How come Mormons aren’t on the no-fly list? It’s plain denial to say Islam is not the problem. It damn sure is the problem. But in our country people who refuse to see it as the problem may be even a bigger problem as they will leave us open to Islam’s barbarism.

    In fact, right now – as they have for years – decent, brave Muslims are fighting side by side with our troops against jihadi morons. To ignore that is not only a shameful betrayal of our allies but a foolish squandering of a valuable weapon against extremism.

    Right, and in 1943 brave commies from Russia were fighting side by side with our troops against Nazi morons. So what? They were still lousy commies who, once our “common” enemy was defeated turned on us.

    And good Muslims are fighting back. We waited for years for reasonable, rational Muslim voices to make themselves heard, and it has happened. Egypt’s President al-Sisi – you know, the guy who screwed up President Obama’s plan to turn the most important country in the Middle East over to the Muslim Brotherhood – went in front of Islam’s most noted scholars and chewed them out.

    So one guy, one freekin’ guy this ai-Sisi clown (who is not “rational moslem voices he’s just one voice) went in front of “Islam’s most noted scholars” and chewed them out. Note the word “scholars”. So the most noted men in Islam agree, jihad good, Great Satan bad! So which more represents true Islam: ai-Sisi or their “most noted scholars”?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  7. Of course there are many good Muslims. I wonder through why our officialdom keeps supporting the bad ones, the self-appointed advocates? (The last time I saw the CAIR guy on TV, btw, he looked like he was approaching a nervous breakdown, which would not suprise me, given his politics.)

    Is it just that they speak the same language, the Multi-Culti Victim Theory of Life? Do they give money or other political support to politicians.

    Don’t get it.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  8. I see your al-Sisi and raise you a Maj, Hassan.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  9. “decent, brave Muslims are fighting side by side with our troops against jihadi morons. To ignore that is not only a shameful betrayal of our allies but a foolish squandering of a valuable weapon against extremism.”

    Patterico – Sounds like an Obama speech. Any idea who Kurt was suggesting was ignoring that?

    With respect to your conclusion, my view is that Islam itself is the problem but that not every Muslim is participating in the problem. We do ourselves a disservice by denying the extremists are not acting on what they believe are Islamic principles and that we have to alter our cultural norms to accede to the demands of more extreme or even moderate Muslims or face retribution. Sure, we have unique harmless rules for Amish and Mennonites that have stood the test of time, but those communities don’t go around killing non-believers when you mock them. We are talking about a quantum leap in special pleading for Muslims.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  10. daley, do you think that you and I are saying similar things but with different words and emphasis?
    I think “Islam” is the problem, but not all individual Muslims,
    though I don’t like to put it that way as it would be easy for any Muslim to think that I thought he/she was the problem.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  11. “I thought this was worth passing along, in an era when some people seem to argue that Islam itself is the problem, and that every Muslim on earth is the problem. They’re not.”

    “Islam is the problem” is not synonymous with “every Muslim is the problem”.

    There can be decent, tolerant Muslims even if Islamic scripture is intolerant–as is indeed the case.

    Someone once commented that it was even possible to find peaceful fascists, people who thought that fascism was the best way to organize society but who did not want to kill anyone. They were, of course, good people in spite of their fascist convictions, not because of them, although they may have mistakenly believed otherwise.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  12. even possible to find peaceful fascists, people who thought that fascism was the best way to organize society but who did not want to kill anyone

    That would be Mayor Daley.

    nk (dbc370)

  13. MD in Philly – I think we are saying close to the same thing. I’m not sure I would go as far as your deportation route unless treason or felonies were committed.

    I think one of the biggest problems has been the lack of testicular fortitude in our public leadership to accurately and publicly identify the issues. Democrats in Congress try to shut down any hearing involving Islamic terror by invoking the specter of Islamophobia. The MSA and other organizations on college campuses try to prevent viewpoints being heard contrary to their own.

    On this website we have people saying controversial cartoons should not be published due to the risk of offending somebody. I call BS to that. People get offended all the time over what seems to be the silliest stuff. The only groups I see regularly resorting to violence over offenses are pro-abortion groups, the Occupy Movement, and Muslims. If we are going to self-censor our speech, which is what people are fundamentally proposing, I think it is only fair that we compile a complete list of offensive topics that are off limits so as not to single out Muslims for special treatment.

    Plus, I do not believe we have any unique ability to determine who is or is not a moderate Muslim by looking at them, so how do you screen for them. The sponsor of the Muslim Victory Tower was considered moderate in the U.S., but he sang a completely different tune overseas. We have second generation Muslim youth going to Africa and Syria to join the jihad there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  14. “That would be Mayor Daley.”

    nk – He just had plausible deniability.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  15. To clarify my deportation suggestion, I would start with the worst offenders. I see no reason why we should let an Imam lead a mosque and run a school while preaching and teaching destruction to the US and Israel, and the only thing to prevent murdering this afternoon is that it is not to their tactical advantage.
    As I said before, I guess the legal question would be akin to what is free speech and what is materially inciting a riot. There should be some sort of due process, but I would allow recordings of what someone said in Arabic or Farsi (for example) in another country as evidence. If someone talks about infiltrating the “Great Satan” to bring down its destruction, I see no reason why that person should be allowed to stay here. Did we allow Germans to make speeches about how they would welcome Heir Hitler and his friends when they finally won the war?

    I think the vast majority of Muslims would be happy to be loyal US citizens and partake of our pluralistic society, as opposed to some here who would like to see any and all Muslims coerced into leaving.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  16. to the decent and brave muslims what are fighting with us against the terrorists i would like to say thank you very much

    I’m very very happy to have you guys on board

    keep up the good work

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  17. I think the vast majority of Muslims would be happy to be loyal US citizens and partake of our pluralistic society, as opposed to some here who would like to see any and all Muslims coerced into leaving.

    First of all MD in Philly, what evidence, experience, proof or reliable citations can you produce to back up a ridiculous claim like the “majority” of moslems would be happy “to be loyal US citizens”? Fact is they prove every day in every country they are loyal only to allah and mohammed. They will never “partake” in our pluralistic society because they do not believe in a pluralistic society.

    And If one would not like to see any and all moslems coerced into leaving. I want them thrown out pure and simple. Just as I would have wanted Nazis thrown out in 1940. They don’t belong here are you listening?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  18. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to have such a strong opinion. Allow me to clarify. I too am sure there are “good” moslems. First we have your jihadi/terrorist type moslem. Next the “good” moslem who works, goes to mosque and enables the first group with his donations and protestes of “Islamophobia” to deflect criticism. Finally we have our super-moslems fighting along side Americans and the other free people of the world. We see these super-moslems every day wiping out the jihadi/terrorist moslems wherever they try and hide. It is these super-moslems who raided the offices in Paris, tracked down the Boston bombers and brought the bad, bad moslems to their knees. Enough sarcasm yet?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  19. “to the decent and brave muslims what are fighting with us against the terrorists i would like to say thank you very much”

    Mr. Feets – So would I and I would not mock them the way you do the PTL and lifeydoodle Christian types but I hope you have interesting conversations with your Muslim friend M and the Islamic view of abortion and gay marriagings.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  20. the whole reason i got my job here in the city of broad shoulders is cause of my islamical bestie M who really fought really hard hard for me during a hiring freeze so we went and had super-old steaks what had been aged for many moons and we had mashed potatoes and roasted veggies that were very tasty

    we were kind of limited on sides cause of a lot of them had bacons in them but it was ok cause we started with caesars with the tasty lil fishes in them

    i had two manhattans and I loved the manhattans there cause they had a splash of vanilla stuff what makes them special but M just had diet coke because Allah

    then we had red velvet cake in a can which was tasty because cake

    just a great guy and he loves America and spider-man and he got a big kick out of the bean and I’m so glad he’s my friend

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  21. Here is a long but good video by David Wood explaining what he calls the three stages of jihad based upon Islamic religious text. He also proposes adding a fourth stage, Stage 0, for Western Muslims, who are largely clueless about Islamic religious doctrine and believe it is a religion of peace.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjdO4cfeEg#t=1408

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  22. oh hah we x-posted Mr. daley that’s really nice of you to remember M

    um

    me and M don’t talk a lot about politics and stuff that’s more me and my friend D

    me and D like to talk about billionaire Bruce Rauner and how he’s bad for seniors and bad for Illinois

    but me and M mostly talk about computers and spider-man and work gossip stuff and about super storm sandy which was really not a good thing for him

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  23. “I’m so glad he’s my friend”

    Mr. Feets – I’m glad he’s your friend too, but it seems sort of sooper dooper mega hypocritical to say do not criticize Muslims who you go out of your way to antagonize Christians on this site. Splain that Lucy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  24. well Quinn was like cinnamon raison bread, then,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  25. some people seem to argue that Islam itself is the problem, and that every Muslim on earth is the problem. They’re not.

    That meme is really being pushed. Variants. The Moslems who don’t support jihadism are not serious Moslems, but that’s the real Islam..

    It would be more accurate to call it an Islamic heresy. (that is growing)

    Things like that have appeared in the past – there were the Almohades.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_Caliphate

    At length, towards the end of Ramadan in late 1121, after a particularly moving sermon, reviewing his failure to persuade the Almoravids to reform by argument, Ibn Tumart ‘revealed’ himself as the true Mahdi, a divinely guided justicer, and was recognized as such by his audience.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1287-almohades

    Being consummate theologians and imbued with the spirit of uncompromising orthodoxy as taught by Al-Ghazzali, the Almohade rulers initiated a reaction of the most thoroughgoing kind. The new state of things was felt by the Jews as soon as ‘Abd al-Mu’min, the second Almohade prince, took Morocco in 1149, and not long afterward those of Mohammedan Spain were also made to feel the difference. It was only one of the consequences of the renewed rigidity of the law that non-Moslems should not be tolerated in the Almohade states. The Jews and Christians had to choose between conversion to Islam and emigration. Synagogues and churches were either destroyed or changed into mosques.

    The Barbary pirates also cited this kind of thing as judtification.

    Current jihadism has surpassed both of them in brutality and originality.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  26. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/13/2015 @ 9:36 am

    Plus, I do not believe we have any unique ability to determine who is or is not a moderate Muslim by looking at them, so how do you screen for them.

    Go after the teachers not the students.

    We are actually doing a half decent job in the United States. And all that is being done is looking for connections to terrorist groups or terrorist plots, with threats of prosecution
    and deportation, but especially prosecution. Also for making any kind of threat, and stealing. They can’t function without threatening people, stealing or taking bribes = money from terrorost supporting sources.

    That alone does a lot.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  27. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/13/2015 @ 12:20 pm

    Stage 0, for Western Muslims, who are largely clueless about Islamic religious doctrine and believe it is a religion of peace.

    That amounts to saying thatthe jihadists have the correct doctrine.

    Strange it wasn’t a big problem before circa 1980.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  28. Mr. daleyrocks, based on the historical evidence that is available I think it is probably not very realistic for you to expect cogency or consistency in either logic or argumentation from Mr. feets.

    Mr. happyfeet, topic to topic that might be something for you to consider working on, though.

    elissa (6a9829)

  29. Sammy,

    Islamic violence most definitely was a problem before 1980:

    The biggest push for this [Islamic] agenda came in 1928, with the founding of the Ikhwan al-Muslimun or Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. This organization became the cornerstone for most of today’s Islamist movements, advocating Islamic beliefs and values as expressed by the common Egyptian. The organization, founded by Hassan al-Banna (1906-1949), rejected western rule and England’s secular influence over Egypt. Without religious governance, al-Banna believed the Muslim world would be “a society of cultural mongrels and spiritual half-castes.”

    “Politics is part of religion,” he wrote. “Caesar and what belongs to Caesar is for God Almighty alone Islam commanded a unity of life; to impose upon Islam the Christian separation of loyalties [into church and state] is to deny it its essential meaning and very existence.”

    Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood soon developed armed cells that attacked the government and its supporters. Not surprisingly, the movement was soon outlawed. But this did not stop the group from continuing its activities. In an attempt to quell the movement, al-Banna was executed in Cairo in 1949.

    However, al-Banna’s death did not hinder the growth of Islamism. The Muslim Brotherhood found further inspiration in the 1950s and 1960s from Sayyid Qutb (1906-1966), a radical exegete who provided Koranic justifications for attacking secular Arab leaders that called themselves believers, but who did not run their governments according to the shari’a or Islamic law. In his most famous book, Milestones, he advocated jihad, or holy war, as a means to shake off the shackles of repressive secular regimes.

    This was followed by uprisings in other Middle Eastern and Northern African countries, including Libya, and ultimately the “earthquake” in Iran in 1979. Perhaps you focus on 1980 because Iran galvanized the Western world’s attention to what was happening, but radical Islamists started long before and are rooted in the decline of the Ottoman Empire, which dissolved in 1922.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  30. Islamic violence most definitely was a problem before 1980:

    http://www.meforum.org/168/at-war-with-whom

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/13/2015 @ 1:33 pm


    Middle East Forum
    Board of Governors
    Officers

    President: Daniel Pipes

    Jesus Christ. Seriously?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  31. If this continues apace it may come to this: “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.”

    Gordon Pasha (827167)

  32. Patterico’s post is about Muslims who are fighting radical Islam. Daniel Pipes provides another example of a Muslim leader who isn’t going that far (yet), but who is speaking in a way that Pipes believes is a good sign for the West:

    Prince Salman, 45 and widely acknowledged to be the Bahraini royal family’s principal reformer, opens his remarks by addressing the inaccuracy of the phrase, “War on Terror.” *** In perhaps the outstanding line of the speech, he states that “it is the ideology itself that must be combatted. It must be named, it must be shamed, it must be contained, and eventually it must be defeated.”
    ***
    I submit that Islamism is precisely the term he seeks for the enemy ideology; and we are engaged in a “War on Islamism.” Salman understands the problem well – the transformation of Islam into a totalitarian ideology. But he seeks refuge in the pretense that Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism all share this affliction. Better that he – and other forthright Muslims – accept the ineluctable reality that Islam alone contains a totalitarian temptation.

    On the positive side, Salman’s remarks fit into a growing trend among Muslim politicians directly to confront the Islamist danger. *** This new tendency has great importance. As I often say, radical Islam is the problem and moderate Islam is the solution. Now, we may add another influential leader, indeed a crown prince, to the ranks of those Muslims who wish to find a solution.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  33. carlitos,

    Recently, you seem to have a problem with my links. Is there something in that excerpt you think is historically wrong?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  34. carlitos,

    Recently, you seem to have a problem with my links. Is there something in that excerpt you think is historically wrong?

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/13/2015 @ 1:49 pm

    Daniel Pipes is an unapologetic bigot. He is also the President of the forum you cited. Yeah, I have a problem with that. I’m not even going to read the excerpt. You may as well tell me what Goebbels said about some Jewish cat.

    I used to read Pipes, and sites like Gates of Vienna, until I learned of their less-than-savory associations. Lots and lots of EU neo-fascists love this US support for their ideas, which they frame as anti-Islamic radical, but are really completely racist.

    If you took 10 minutes to visit Mr. Pipes’ associations with neo-fascist European parties like Geert Wilders’ “Party for Freedom,” you might know what I mean.

    Again, it’s incumbent upon you, and you alone, to screen these sources before you post them. My post-fact checking is just embarrassing after-the-fact idiocy.

    Here is one of Wilders’ most recent examples of racism:

    The charges stem from an incident in which Mr Wilders led an anti-Moroccan chant during a speech in March.

    The Dutch public prosecutor later received more than 6,400 complaints.

    Mr Wilders, who leads the Party for Freedom (PVV), has often expressed his distaste for Islam and mass immigration.

    In response to the prosecution, Mr Wilders described the charges in a statement as “a travesty”.

    “The public prosecutor would do better to devote his time to prosecuting jihadis instead of me,” he said.

    Mr Wilders made his comments during a political meeting in The Hague.

    Asking supporters in a cafe if they wanted fewer Moroccans in the country, some responded by chanting “Fewer! Fewer! Fewer!”

    The politician then replied: “I will fix it for you.”

    During a later television interview he referred to “Moroccan scum”, the Reuters news agency reports.

    The PVV is currently topping the opinions polls in the Netherlands.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  35. Please skip my comments in the future, carlitos.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  36. “Strange it wasn’t a big problem before circa 1980.”

    Sammy – A big problem where? Take a look at the video I linked in #22.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  37. carlitos is consistent, he is handling this conversation like he does global warming.

    Though I must say that any link to NPR or the Huffington Post I would look at with great skepticism, and maybe not at all unless linked by some people more than others.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  38. The charges stem from an incident in which Mr Wilders led an anti-Moroccan chant during a speech in March.

    The Dutch public prosecutor later received more than 6,400 complaints.

    BURN THE WITCH!

    He’s probably also a global warming denier.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. Hewitt raves about a book “The Looming Tower”, which I think largely deals with the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood, as essential reading to understand the threat.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  40. I can think of no valid reason people in some European are resistant to further Muslim or Arab immigration because existing immigrants have been so well integrated into their societies, with low school drop out rates, low unemployment, low crime rates, low rates of public assistance and the like. Anyone saying anything else is pure crazy talk based upon bigotry and xenophobia.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  41. Please skip my comments in the future, carlitos.

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/13/2015 @ 2:03 pm

    No, I will not, and I resent you asking me to do so. I will comment on them as I have always done. If Mr. Frey wants to ban me, then that’s his prerogative.

    Back before Charles Johnson lost his mind, he illuminated a lot of us as to the nexus between US extremists like Pat Buchanan and the Euro-fascists like Mr. Wilders and The Northern League.

    If you are too embarrassed to defend your position, I understand completely. I would be too.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  42. I look at the poorly assimilated mostly peaceful native Nigerian Muslims of Boko Haram slaughtering thousands of their countrymen and shake my damned head wondering where we failed them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  43. MD — The Looming Tower should be required reading in any Western Civ class.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  44. 2. ….That said, taking context into account you get Christians who do not make a priority of growing wealth and are against violence except in protecting innocent life, and I think you still get a number of Muslims believing in jihad, but not all who call themselves Muslims do…

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/13/2015 @ 7:52 am

    I wish al-Sissi well. And Zuhdi Jasser. But they’re going to have an uphill battle. Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam. Islam is, when you get down to it, a gang code.

    This isn’t to say there aren’t nice Muslims. It is to say that when you look at what ISIS is doing, for one example, they aren’t doing anything against the faith.

    Muhammad himself said Allah made him great through terror.

    I don’t know why people like carlitos and leviticus seem to believe it makes me happy to say this. It doesn’t. But the thing is anybody can read what I’ve read.

    http://www.sunnah.com/
    http://quran.com/
    http://www.qtafsir.com/

    The foregoing isn’t the be all and end all of Islamic holy scripture. It’s just a start. Explore to your heart’s content. But al-Baghdadi got a doctorate in in this s***. He got the same thing out of it I did.

    I know nice Muslims too. The Pact of Ummar demanded the dhimmis not to learn the Quran. In this, the Muslims were not deceiving the kufar. They don’t want Muslims learning the Quran either.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  45. carlitos – Back before he lost his mind Charles Johnson spent his time alerting us to the dangers of Islamic extremism. He lost his mind over people like Geert Wilders and it seems you followed him down that rabbit hole.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  46. carlitos,

    Okay then. Some of Wilders’ supporters disagreed with him about the Moroccan comments, and it appears he may be sued for hate speech as a result, but I don’t see how it’s relevant to this discussion. But you do because you think agreeing with Wilders about anything disqualifies someone from having a valid opinion or even from stating historical facts.

    Wilders, of course, has been charged with hate speech before and it’s true that Daniel Pipes defended him. Pipes also noted he doesn’t agree with Wilders on Islam:

    Wilders must also overcome his opponents’ dirty tactics. Most notably, they have finally, after 2½ years of preliminary skirmishes, succeeded in dragging him to court on charges of hate speech and incitement to hatred. The public prosecutor’s case against Wilders opens in Amsterdam on January 20; if convicted, Wilders faces a fine of up to US$14,000 or as many as 16 months in jail.

    Remember, he is his country’s leading politician. Plus, due to threats against his life, he always travels with bodyguards and incessantly changes safe houses. Who exactly, one wonders, is the victim of incitement?

    Although I disagree with Wilders about Islam (I respect the religion but fight Islamists with all I have), we stand shoulder-to-shoulder against the lawsuit. I reject the criminalization of political differences, particularly attempts to thwart a grassroots political movement via the courts.

    Again, Pipes disagrees with Wilders on some things and agrees with him on others. I fail to see how that makes Pipes a bigot.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  47. Further, my excerpt is from the ME Forum regarding historical facts. That you refuse to even read it because of the source is puzzling to me.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  48. Carlitos may have missed the comments of the mayor of Rotterdam which I linked on an earlier thread. Oh, did I mention the mayor is Muslim?

    http://weaselzippers.us/210872-muslim-mayor-of-rotterdam-on-live-tv-tells-muslims-who-turn-their-backs-on-freedom-to-pack-your-bags-and-fck-off/

    elissa (6a9829)

  49. 46. carlitos – Back before he lost his mind Charles Johnson spent his time alerting us to the dangers of Islamic extremism. He lost his mind over people like Geert Wilders and it seems you followed him down that rabbit hole.
    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/13/2015 @ 2:26 pm

    I take it you have a problem with my comments. I don’t know why.

    All I’m saying is that the Quran says what it says. It’s not a huge mystery.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  50. People in Northern European nations are getting tired of immigrants who refuse to assimilate.
    Islam as practiced by traditionalists forbids assimilation, allows for rape of non believers, allows a father to kill his daughters because they are assimilating etc. and you don’t see many good Muslims in those cities standing up in public and saying this is wrong. Why?
    Because it is blasphemy to speak against the Koran and then the f***ers want to kill you.

    There are Muslims fighting alongside our guys in Iraq (I mean our “unofficial” boots on the ground guys) and in Afghanistan as well. Understood. That said, the Afghan Army does not have the full confidence of their American advisers… the advisers have to be on guard and ready to shoot their own “allies” at all times.
    The Iraqi allies may well believe a nasty repressive strain of Islam, but they hate the other tribe and/or sect worse than they do Americans

    steveg (794291)

  51. 51. People in Northern European nations are getting tired of immigrants who refuse to assimilate. Islam as practiced by traditionalists forbids assimilation…

    steveg (794291) — 1/13/2015 @ 2:35 pm

    The Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs is basically the foreign relations arm of the Saudi government. It’s mission is to make sure Muslims do not assimilate. Otherwise, without an active effort, they would.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  52. The Quran says what it says, but the Old Testament doesn’t say what it says? Or what?

    Racist morons like Pipes and their neo-fascist network are not what today’s Republican party should be tied to. It makes us look like idiots.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  53. No, the Old Testament says what it says too.

    It says something different. Someone like you who makes it his mission in life not to know what you’re talking about wouldn’t know that.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  54. God didn’t destroy the Amalekites because they weren’t Jews.

    What’s your fallback position, carlitos? That the differences aren’t really differences?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  55. cool Steve 57, when I rape your daughter and get caught, I’ll just marry her and everything will be fine, like it says in Deutoronomy, right? That doesn’t sound anything at all like the Koran.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  56. Deuteronomy

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  57. You have to cherry pick your quotes from the Bible to draw your false equivalences.

    I don’t have to cherry pick a damned thing from the Quran. Context proves my point. That’s why I provide links. That’s why I beg people to do their own research.

    Al-Baghdadi didn’t just happen. Get around that.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  58. carlitos,

    In 2003, Jeff Jacoby at the Boston Globe (reprinted at Pipe’s website) addressed the claim that Pipes is a racist, and didn’t buy it:

    What Pipes offers the institute is a deep knowledge of Islam and the Middle East and the conviction that confronting Islamism – the radical, fundamentalist, and often violent ideology exemplified by Osama bin Laden and the Ayatollah Khomeini – is the key to resolving some of the world’s worst conflicts.

    To hear his critics tell it, Pipes is an “Islamophobe” and an anti-Muslim bigot whose ignorance about Islam is matched only by his hostility toward it. Their smears of him are poisonous. “Daniel Pipes has a problem – his obsessive hatred of all things Muslim,” writes James Zogby of the Arab American Institute. “Pipes is to Muslims what David Duke is to African-Americans.”

    But these are gross and vicious libels, as anyone who reads or listens to Pipes’s own words will quickly discover.
    ***
    Over the ensuing quarter-century, his “response” has comprised a great array of issues. But one theme has predominated: the menace of Islamism. “Militant Islam is the problem,” Pipes says. “Moderate Islam is the solution.”

    He has been forthright in his denunciation of Islamist extremism and relentless in calling attention to the threat posed by the likes of bin Laden and his adherents in the West. If Pipes’s admonitions had been heeded, there might never have been a 9/11.
    ***
    Tashbih Sayyed, the Muslim editor of Pakistan Today magazine, concurs. Pipes “does not bash Muslims,” he stresses. “What he attacks is a fascist interpretation of Islam. Daniel Pipes, to me, is the voice of reason.”

    The most effective champions of peace are frequently notable for their realism and refusal to succumb to political correctness. Those are precisely the hallmarks of Daniel Pipes’s career. The USIP will be enriched by his presence.

    I hope you will show me why you think Pipes is a moron and a racist.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  59. Did you read anything I linked to, carlitos?

    And I believe I acknowledged that what I linked to isn’t the be all and end all of Islamic holy text.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  60. Hypothetically, even if Pipes is everything you say, is there a mistake in my excerpt from his website (in comment 30) about the historical background of Muslim violence? Isn’t that the point here — is it factually correct, no matter what the source?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  61. i’m the most consistent one in almost all teh topics I explore the cake angle and it’s not my fault the religious right is different than muslims

    only one of these two groups of religious people have designs on the republican party really and it’s not the muslims cake be upon them

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  62. You have to cherry pick your quotes from the Bible to draw your false equivalences.

    I don’t have to cherry pick a damned thing from the Quran. Context proves my point. That’s why I provide links. That’s why I beg people to do their own research.

    Al-Baghdadi didn’t just happen. Get around that.

    Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/13/2015 @ 2:55 pm

    I didn’t even quote anything, let alone cherry-pick. I could have referred to Joshua or Numbers as well.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  63. Anybody who thinks that Indonesian Muslims are like Chinese Muslims are like Pakistani Muslims are like Afghan Muslims are like Saudi Muslims are like Syrian Muslims are like Kurd Muslims are like Iranian Muslims are like Lebanese Muslims are like Palestinian Muslims are like Turkish Muslims are like Kosovar Muslims are like Albanian Muslims are like Dutch Muslims are like American Muslims are like Cuban Muslims … is an INDISCRIMINATE CLOD.

    nk (dbc370)

  64. So you didn’t read anything.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  65. Here’s food for thought on Pipes vis a vis Obama”

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1207/The_Muslim_smear_version_20.html

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  66. nk, the Saudis are actively trying to make Indonesian Muslims like Saudi Muslims.

    I’m sorry. Should I speak more slowly?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  67. Ok. You read propaganda. Got it.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  68. And you don’t know the difference. Got that, too.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  69. Steve57,

    I don’t have a lot of time for nonsense that was written 1400 to 5000 years ago, as to how it should govern anything in my current life. You obviously differ. That’s cool, but when you make one set of nonsense out to be worse than another set of nonsense, you set off my spidey sense. It’s all bullshit.

    c

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  70. Explain Baghdadi, carlitos.

    He just came out of nowhere?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  71. yes indeed muslims are super similar to snowflakes Mr. nk

    and I love snowflakes a lot

    especially big fluffy lake effect snowflakes

    especially when they fall on my head when i’m on my way to magnolia bakery where they’re super proud of their banana pudding… i went there today for to get some cake for konichiwa but while i was there i got some banana pudding for konichiwa tomorrow

    i like having pudding to look forward to

    that’s a good way to know you’re living right, if you have pudding to look forward to

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  72. Ben Smith has always been the go-to-guy for spot-on analysis!

    at least in some quarters.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  73. If there is something wrong with Ben Smith’s analysis, please share. I’m obviously not up to speed.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  74. 59. …I hope you will show me why you think Pipes is a moron and a racist..
    DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/13/2015 @ 2:56 pm

    I can explain al Baghdadi. I can explain Nidal Hassan. I can explain Drummer Rigby’s killer.

    I know where they got their ideas.

    Does this make me a racist and a moron?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  75. 73. …I’m obviously not up to speed.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/13/2015 @ 3:22 pm

    No truer words.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  76. “President Barack Obama has a moral responsibility to push back on the nation’s journalism community when it is planning to publish anti-jihadi articles that might cause a jihadi attack against the nation’s defenses forces, the White House’s press secretary said Jan. 12.”

    In case there were doubts about which side of the issue this president is on…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. That’s an interesting 2007 Politico link, carlitos, and I won’t refuse to read it simply because of the source — as you’ve done with my links — even though Politico is banned by our host. But I don’t see how it shows Pipes is a racist and the author, Ben Smith, doesn’t even make that claim. Smith’s point is that Pipes implies Obama is a Muslim, and trying to use that to discredit Obama as a candidate.

    Of course, I say “implies” because what Pipes actually said is that Obama is not a Muslim and he (Pipes) believes Obama is not a Muslim. Pipes’ concern was that Muslims will view Obama as a man raised as a Muslim who is no longer Muslim, making him an apostate — someone Muslims will find unreliable, at best. Pipes sees that as a problem.

    I think that’s a reasonable concern. Why don’t you?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  78. articles not unlike youtubes can instigate ferocious attacks if the president of failmerica doesn’t push back using all the push back powers at his disposal

    we’ve seen it happen too too many times

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  79. I’m thinking of putting a Ford V8 into a Miata, Coronello. I know you’re a Fiat guy, but I thought you could appreciate that.

    http://monstermiata.com/

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  80. I already said radical Islam is Wahabism based in Saudi Arabia, protected by the reactionary Gulf family dynasties, financed by Gulf oil, and that its enemies include the diverse Islamic cultures, in this thread http://patterico.com/2015/01/10/moderate-muslims-criticize-the-charlie-hebdo-attacks/#comment-1728830 I don’t hear you or Hoagie saying that. I hear the second chapter of Mein Kampf (the first half of the second chapter to be precise, that’s as far as I read).

    nk (dbc370)

  81. nk, how many times do I need to say I know nice Muslims?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  82. DRJ – maybe you didn’t get email after email after email that Obama was a secret Muslim, but I did. I’m sure that you are smart enough not to think such a thing. Thankfully, you aren’t on my Godfather’s email list.

    No, I don’t think that it’s (Obama being a secret muslim) a reasonable concern, any more than I think that a US President being an anti-war Quaker, or a Catholic is a concern.

    FordV8 into a miata – thanks for sharing. Seriously.

    feets – where do you find yourself living?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  83. Or, if it makes you happier, not all Muslims are the same.

    But ISIS makes it it’s mission in life to eliminate Muslims who aren’t the same. This is important to understand.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  84. 83. FordV8 into a miata – thanks for sharing. Seriously.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/13/2015 @ 3:36 pm

    It’s sort of the new version of the Cobra or the Tiger II.

    I’m still waiting to hear what you think I’m getting about talking down Islam.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  85. Ok. But I also know some who are more Western liberal than I am. I married a Greek Orthodox and it was important to me; they married outside their religion, ethnicity, and parents’ language.

    nk (dbc370)

  86. I’m sorry you didn’t understand me, carlitos, so let me be more clear: Pipe’s “reasonable concern” is that Muslims would view Obama as an apostate, and that would impact how they reacted to him. Here’s a New York Times’ article that explains what Pipes and I are talking about (bolding is mine):

    BARACK OBAMA has emerged as a classic example of charismatic leadership — a figure upon whom others project their own hopes and desires. The resulting emotional intensity adds greatly to the more conventional strengths of the well-organized Obama campaign, and it has certainly sufficed to overcome the formidable initial advantages of Senator Hillary Clinton.

    One danger of such charisma, however, is that it can evoke unrealistic hopes of what a candidate could actually accomplish in office regardless of his own personal abilities. Case in point is the oft-made claim that an Obama presidency would be welcomed by the Muslim world.

    This idea often goes hand in hand with the altogether more plausible argument that Mr. Obama’s election would raise America’s esteem in Africa — indeed, he already arouses much enthusiasm in his father’s native Kenya and to a degree elsewhere on the continent.

    But it is a mistake to conflate his African identity with his Muslim heritage. Senator Obama is half African by birth and Africans can understandably identify with him. In Islam, however, there is no such thing as a half-Muslim. Like all monotheistic religions, Islam is an exclusive faith.

    As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.

    Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim. He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith is to him.

    His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is “irtidad” or “ridda,” usually translated from the Arabic as “apostasy,” but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive).

    With few exceptions, the jurists of all Sunni and Shiite schools prescribe execution for all adults who leave the faith not under duress; the recommended punishment is beheading at the hands of a cleric, although in recent years there have been both stonings and hangings. (Some may point to cases in which lesser punishments were ordered — as with some Egyptian intellectuals who have been punished for writings that were construed as apostasy — but those were really instances of supposed heresy, not explicitly declared apostasy as in Senator Obama’s case.)

    It is true that the criminal codes in most Muslim countries do not mandate execution for apostasy (although a law doing exactly that is pending before Iran’s Parliament and in two Malaysian states). But as a practical matter, in very few Islamic countries do the governments have sufficient authority to resist demands for the punishment of apostates at the hands of religious authorities.

    For example, in Iran in 1994 the intervention of Pope John Paul II and others won a Christian convert a last-minute reprieve, but the man was abducted and killed shortly after his release. Likewise, in 2006 in Afghanistan, a Christian convert had to be declared insane to prevent his execution, and he was still forced to flee to Italy.

    Because no government is likely to allow the prosecution of a President Obama — not even those of Iran and Saudi Arabia, the only two countries where Islamic religious courts dominate over secular law — another provision of Muslim law is perhaps more relevant: it prohibits punishment for any Muslim who kills any apostate, and effectively prohibits interference with such a killing.

    At the very least, that would complicate the security planning of state visits by President Obama to Muslim countries, because the very act of protecting him would be sinful for Islamic security guards. More broadly, most citizens of the Islamic world would be horrified by the fact of Senator Obama’s conversion to Christianity once it became widely known — as it would, no doubt, should he win the White House. This would compromise the ability of governments in Muslim nations to cooperate with the United States in the fight against terrorism, as well as American efforts to export democracy and human rights abroad.

    That an Obama presidency would cause such complications in our dealings with the Islamic world is not likely to be a major factor with American voters, and the implication is not that it should be. But of all the well-meaning desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively improve relations with the world’s Muslims is the least realistic.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  87. nk, what I’m trying to convey is that a plain reading of the text of the Quran will lead you to the understanding that al Baghddadi has arrived at. And further context, as provided by the Sunnah, will confirm it.

    I am NOT saying Muslims are automatically bad people. Or that they’re all the same.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  88. carlitos,

    Like you, I got hundreds of emails about the sins of Obama, Hillary, and Republicans, too, but I didn’t believe everything I read and I know you don’t either. As for Obama’s religion, I don’t believe he is a Muslim. I think he’s an atheist or agnostic, and has no interest in religion other than what it can do for him.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  89. I think the land shapes us. If we live in a different place, we are a different people. It could be that the place makes different demands on us, it could be that we have different neighbors, it could be different mind rays beamed by our reptilian overlords from their base on the moon.

    nk (dbc370)

  90. It could be we have different religions, nk.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  91. I hope I’m wrong in that last sentence.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  92. I am confuzzled. Some links and sources should be ignored outright, because Ben Smith didn’t accuse someone of accusing someone of being a Muslim because they actually said he wasn’t a Muslim. And therefore, Pipes is a frothing racist for not calling Obama a Muslim. Leave aside the abject nonsense of conflating Islam with a race, but when did Ben Freakin Smith at Politico become link worthy, but you dismiss others out of hand?

    JD (86a5eb)

  93. DRJ – some medieval morons believe a certain religious thing about the US president. So what? Would you care so much if the believers thought that a Mormon or Catholic were apostates? Seriously, why do you care what they think?

    Really, O-freaking-Bama is a cause for complications in our relations with the Muslim world? Are you serious? 100 years of colonialism, wars and arbitrary borders notwithstanding?

    He hasn’t been shot in several dozen visits to the Islamic world, so apparently the “Islamic” security guards are able to compartmentalize. :roll:

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  94. I think geography matters, too. Visiting one’s ancient homeland (in my case, Denmark) often reveals remarkable similarities of place and people that are hard to dismiss as coincidence.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  95. 94. …He hasn’t been shot in several dozen visits to the Islamic world, so apparently the “Islamic” security guards are able to compartmentalize. :roll:
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/13/2015 @ 3:56 pm

    Or he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  96. carlitos,

    How many of the 1.6 billion Muslims do you estimate are “medieval” and prone to violence?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  97. The Dutch anti-Muslim movement is no reason for friends to fight. It’s a weird conglomeration ranging from homosexuals who fear Islam’s strict mores, to embittered victims like Ayan Hirsi Ali, to outright race hustlers. And there is very little even about “mainstream” Netherlands to admire these days.

    nk (dbc370)

  98. “I can explain al Baghdadi. I can explain Nidal Hassan.”

    – Steve57

    And I can explain Fr. Sabine Griego, Fr. Jason Sigler, Fr. Art Perrault, and about 30 other Catholic pedophile priests who burned a swathe through northern New Mexico over the last 50 years, and used religion and religious text to justify everything they did.

    That doesn’t make Catholicism or Catholics a problem. I play soccer with a bunch of Catholics, and none of them have ever tried to rape me!

    Also, hypothetically, hating Islam or Muslims wouldn’t make you a racist, man. Islam is not a race. It would just hypothetically make you prejudiced.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  99. Or he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/13/2015 @ 3:59 pm

    If I recognized a “Lord,” I’d say that he’s got his priorities all backwards-assed.

    DRJ – the “medieval morons” I referred to above are nominal Christians, not Muslims.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  100. Also, carlitos, I read the article I linked to say we shouldn’t believe Obama will be able to heal our rifts with the Muslim world, something Obama believed he could do and tried to do beginning with his January 2009 speech in Cairo.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  101. So a Reuters reporter, full of hope and change, wrote something stupid. And?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  102. carlitos:

    some medieval morons believe a certain religious thing about the US president
    ***
    the “medieval morons” I referred to above are nominal Christians, not Muslims

    What Pipes and the New York Times’ article are saying is that Obama will be considered an apostate by the Muslim world, and they were concerned how that would impact foreign relations with Muslim countries. The New York Times’ article said Americans shouldn’t care about this, but we need to be aware of it so we don’t inflate our expectations of what Obama can accomplish.

    Why do you keep making this about redneck, moron Americans? Is it so you can refuse to even think about something you find offensive, or so you can dismiss everything that is said as moronic? I think it is, and that’s why I wish you wouldn’t bother to read my comments. You aren’t taking them seriously, as is evident by the fact you appear to be completely missing the point.

    It also appears you’ve given up on your claims that Pipes is a racist. I suspect that’s because you are so convinced you’re right that you aren’t even willing to discuss it further. If so, why bother to engage with me at all? It’s pointless, isn’t it?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  103. All this muslim talk has made me hungry for a BLT on Homemade Wheat Bread with a ghost-pepper mayonnaise.

    mg (31009b)

  104. “Visiting one’s ancient homeland (in my case, Denmark) often reveals remarkable similarities of place and people that are hard to dismiss as coincidence.”

    – DRJ

    Off topic, but have you read the Spectator Bird? It’s a really, really interesting novel on just that topic. I’m about halfway through it, but I got sidetracked by some other reading.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  105. It’s a really, really interesting novel *by Wallace Stegner.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  106. I think it’s fair to say Obama’s Cairo speech shows he believed he can heal a rift with Muslims:

    So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, those who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. And this cycle of suspicion and discord must end.

    I’ve come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles — principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.

    I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. I know there’s been a lot of publicity about this speech, but no single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have this afternoon all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly to each other the things we hold in our hearts and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, “Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.” (Applause.) That is what I will try to do today — to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart.

    It may have been a Reuter’s reporter who used the word “rift” but it fits.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  107. What Pipes and the New York Times’ article are saying is that Obama will be considered an apostate by the Muslim world

    Yes, you are quoting this silly argument, which isn’t helpful. Do you go to Islamic scholars for interpretation of the New Testament? If not, why do you go to Jewish journalists for your interpretation of Islamic law?

    Here is the guy, Edward Luttwak, who you quoted, in the New York Times:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Luttwak#Criticism

    He was dead wrong about the Iraq War, among other things. I don’t think that you really know about the authors whom you cite here.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  108. “I take it you have a problem with my comments. I don’t know why.”

    Steve57 – I responded directly to carlitos not anything you said. I have no idea what you are talking about.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  109. History is going to decide who was right or wrong about the conduct of the Iraq war.

    History is going to make the call on President Obama’s leadership and policies.

    History is going to be the judge about the actual threats or real effects of global warming.

    History is going to decide how the assimilation of immigrant populations in the 21st century both in the United States and in Europe turned out.

    Paradise? Hell? Perhaps some of us will know for sure someday.

    No matter how much we think we know, in the meantime as individuals we’re all pretty much just along for the ride.

    elissa (6a9829)

  110. If what I say is silly, then educate me, carlitos. Go back to my comment 30 and tell me where it is wrong.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  111. I haven’t read that Leviticus. I spend too much time online!

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  112. You’re right about one thing, carlitos. I’m not offering links because I think the authors are impeccable sources. I offer them because they say things I think are worth discussing. If you find a website that is always right and unimpeachable, please share it with me. Apparently for you it’s Wikipedia.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  113. “The Dutch anti-Muslim movement is no reason for friends to fight. It’s a weird conglomeration ranging from homosexuals who fear Islam’s strict mores, to embittered victims like Ayan Hirsi Ali, to outright race hustlers. And there is very little even about “mainstream” Netherlands to admire these days.”

    nk – With respect to the Moroccan-Dutch, they appear to be a largely craptacular species of interlopers so scum appears to be a pretty good adjective. Probably from another website which carlitos will categorically dismiss:

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-netherlands

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  114. It is literally a novel about how “visiting one’s ancient homeland [in the novel’s case, Denmark] often reveals remarkable similarities of place and people that are hard to dismiss as coincidence.”

    I imagine (now) that you and Wallace Stegner could have a very interesting conversation about the unique introspective qualities of Denmark. I’m nerdily jealous.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  115. You’ve piqued my interest, Leviticus. I need to read that book.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  116. 99. “I can explain al Baghdadi. I can explain Nidal Hassan.”

    – Steve57

    And I can explain Fr. Sabine Griego, Fr. Jason Sigler, Fr. Art Perrault, and about 30 other Catholic pedophile priests who burned a swathe through northern New Mexico over the last 50 years, and used religion and religious text to justify everything they did.

    That doesn’t make Catholicism or Catholics a problem. I play soccer with a bunch of Catholics, and none of them have ever tried to rape me!

    Also, hypothetically, hating Islam or Muslims wouldn’t make you a racist, man. Islam is not a race. It would just hypothetically make you prejudiced.
    Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/13/2015 @ 4:03 pm

    No, you can’t.

    Or rather, you can’t explain about how certain peeps got their religion wrong.

    I can explain how al-Baghdadi got a doctorate getting his right.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  117. Tell me what al-Baghdadi doesn’t understand about Islam, Leviticus.

    That’s the practical issue. Not who’s right on the internet.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  118. Everything Michael Adebolajo says in this vid is theologically correct.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNc5AJSRHEE

    ‘splain to me where I’m wrong.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  119. DRJ – you could have made your post #30 about the Zionist movement or any of several revolutions. I can’t respond further just now.

    I’d like to read Stegner. I’m Danish by descendancy and love the Scandi crime novels.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  120. 120. …I can’t respond further just now.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/13/2015 @ 5:05 pm

    No s*** you can’t.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  121. 118. Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/13/2015 @ 4:58 pm

    Tell me what al-Baghdadi doesn’t understand about Islam, Leviticus.

    He understands a lot.

    But he’s lying, and he’s not even adhering to his lies.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  122. Yes, carlitos, worldwide upheaval can cause violence in many areas. But Sammy said in comment 28 that he thought it was “Strange [Islamic violence] wasn’t a big problem before circa 1980.” I was responding to that when I listed incidents of Islamic violence prior to 1980 and tried to address the history of why they might have occurred.

    Are you upset about something? I can’t remember ever arguing with someone over historical facts, and it seems strange to do so with you.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  123. I liked the French ones when I was a kid. Inspector Maigret and Lemmy Caution. I liked French authors across the board, actually. Probably explains a lot about how I turned out.

    nk (dbc370)

  124. 123. … I was responding to that when I listed incidents of Islamic violence prior to 1980 and tried to address the history of why they might have occurred.

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/13/2015 @ 5:12 pm

    Al Andalus, anyone?

    Charles Martel. The world’s first Islamophobe.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  125. What kind of d*** tries to stop Muslims from taking over France?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  126. I’m pretty sure the Arabism of the mid-twentieth century was more ethnocentric and anti-colonial (and anti-Israel) than religious.

    nk (dbc370)

  127. Steve57,

    I wasn’t trying to recite the entire history. I was thinking about modern history, especially how the end of the Ottoman Empire may have triggered upheaval and violence.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  128. I said it was a BIG before circa 1980.

    There was a problem of terrorism from about 1964, but the terrorists weren’t Islamists.

    The Moslem Brotherhood goes back to about 1928, but it was just one kind of radical organization. It only existed where it existed. And Saudis or whoever funded secular pan-Arabs too.

    The roots go back even further than 1928 – to Imperial Germany, which was also responsible for inflicting Communism on the world.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  129. Mr. c i’m here in chicago in between ravenswood and lincoln square…. that bakery link is this neat bakery downtown … they opened just one here most of them are in nyc i think

    i love it here very much… it’s beautiful and i love the cold actually … i was waiting on saying that til this week cause i wanted to be 100% sure but yup i love the cold and the snow and getting to ride a choo choo train every morning and all of it

    happyfeet (831175)

  130. I liked Agatha Christie’s Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  131. They used to call it “Islamic Fundamentalism”

    Now tell me how far back discussion of that goes.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  132. DRJ, I wasn’t taking issue with anything you said.

    And oddly enough Sammy contributed beneficially to this thread.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  133. See, Charles Martel was where the Arabs went wrong. They attacked barbarians who were also expanding, the Franks (who also carried the cutest hatchets). They should have stopped at the still putrefying remnants of the Western Roman Empire along the Mediterranean.

    nk (dbc370)

  134. About the roots of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  135. @134, the Arabs were wrong long before Charles Martel. Who gave them the right?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  136. How do you define “BIG” terrorism, Sammy? Is the number of deaths the defining factor, or property damage, or the location, e.g., something in your city is BIG but something in my city isn’t?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  137. Besides Allah.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  138. Sammy, please clarify this for me because I don’t want to misunderstand what you say. Are you saying there was significant Islamic violence before 1980 or there wasn’t?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  139. a Miata with a V8 dropped in would be a ton o’ fun, Steve!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  140. DRJ, you are a lot nicer than me. I couldn’t do it.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  141. Patterico – Sounds like an Obama speech. Any idea who Kurt was suggesting was ignoring that?

    Ask him. He’s reachable.

    With respect to your conclusion, my view is that Islam itself is the problem but that not every Muslim is participating in the problem. We do ourselves a disservice by denying the extremists are not acting on what they believe are Islamic principles

    Who is suggesting that?

    and that we have to alter our cultural norms to accede to the demands of more extreme or even moderate Muslims or face retribution.

    Who is saying that?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  142. During the discussion, Patterico, (it sounds like you had a remarkable evening, BTW,) did Schlichter offer any thoughts on the handling and impact of the FT. Hood- Nadal Hassan deal? In my opinion, that single horrific deadly event, the later disclosures of how many warning signs there had been, and the ridiculous way the government handled the “workplace violence” business, makes it hard to believe that our front line troops of any faith or creed can be very confident of who has their backs and who is fighting bravely along side them, versus who is infiltrating them to deceive.

    It didn’t come up, no. And yes, it was a great evening.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  143. My bro’s got a ’65 Galaxy and a ’69 GTO. I don’t want to pay that kind of money.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  144. The Galaxy has a 390 and the GTO has a Ram Air 400.

    This could be important.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  145. My Morris Minor convertible has a Fiat twin Cam and is quite the sleeper.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  146. @134, the Arabs were wrong long before Charles Martel. Who gave them the right?

    Who gave Alaric the right to conquer the Evrotas valley (Sparta)? Because some Visigoths decided to stay there, my side of the mountain was the last place in Europe to have a Christian church they say.

    nk (dbc370)

  147. You’re killing me, Patterico. If Islam isn’t the problem then why are we discussing Islam and not say, Presbyterianism? Why aren’t Hindus shooting up cartoonists? How come Mormons aren’t on the no-fly list? It’s plain denial to say Islam is not the problem. It damn sure is the problem. But in our country people who refuse to see it as the problem may be even a bigger problem as they will leave us open to Islam’s barbarism.

    While I agree that the overwhelming problem with terrorism in the world is a problem with terrorists who are Islamic, and I also agree that the terrorists believe that their terroristic actions further the cause of Islam, I don’t think it logically follows that “Islam is the problem.”

    For example, if we had a rash of abortion clinic bombings, and it turned out that each and every bombing was committed by a fundamentalist Christian, I think we could say: a) the problem with the abortion clinic bombings is a problem with bombers who are Christian; and b) the bombers think that their actions further the cause of Christianity, but I would not conclude from those premises that c) “Christianity is the problem.”

    I think that’s a logical fallacy.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  148. they do seem to give too much leeway to takfiri like Hassan, Adebolajo, Kouachi, et al,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  149. There are few religions that have not, at one time or another, been used to justify violence. There might not be any. Blaming a religion, however, for the actions of the followers … that seems wrong-headed to me, unless there is something extreme about the texts of the religion itself. There’s little in the Koran that isn’t an echoing of things in the Old Testament (which is one of the more blood-thirsty texts in the world.)

    htom (4ca1fa)

  150. carlitos,

    You seem to have become a big fan of the “this person has icky associations” mode of thought. Are you aware that I speak on a semi-regular basis with Robert Stacy McCain, who Neal Rauhauser says has been described as a hate-talker by the Southern Poverty Law Center?*

    Are you sure you want to continue reading such an impure site as mine?

    *OK, the invocation of the dishonest Rauhauser is a clue that the accusation is not accurate, but these are the sorts of accusations that the “this person has icky associations” crowd typically take at face value — and the authority of the sacred SPLC is seen as the ultimate authority on matters of hate speech. Me, I have come to see the SPLC as . . . unreliable, and that’s putting it incredibly mildly because I am in a charitable mood right now.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  151. the Puffington Host has hired 9/11 denialists, NPR has hosted at least one cop killer, Mumia, so where precisely is this squirrel leading,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  152. 150. There are few religions that have not, at one time or another, been used to justify violence.
    htom (4ca1fa) — 1/13/2015 @ 5:55 pm

    This is true. What I don’t understand is why thiw excuses not knowing anything about the religion.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  153. Sammy:

    132.They used to call it “Islamic Fundamentalism”

    Now tell me how far back discussion of that goes.

    I’m not sure. Some people define this as Wahhabism, and I think that goes back to the 1700’s. I’m not clear on your point so it’s hard to respond.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  154. it seems that post ’67, did Salafism really turn to violence, there were exception the assassination of Nukraishi Pasha in ’49, Fatah had Ikwan leadership, notably Arafat, but they followed a secular nationalist model, the example of Black September inspired their organizational model,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  155. And I can explain Fr. Sabine Griego, Fr. Jason Sigler, Fr. Art Perrault, and about 30 other Catholic pedophile priests who burned a swathe through northern New Mexico over the last 50 years, and used religion and religious text to justify everything they did.

    That doesn’t make Catholicism or Catholics a problem. I play soccer with a bunch of Catholics, and none of them have ever tried to rape me!

    Yup, that’s pretty close to the point I just made, and I hadn’t even seen your comment yet.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  156. There was no bigger terrorist than Yasser Arafat and this is his wife. http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Suha+Arafat+Richard+Symons+2011+Dubai+International+fPEa_MCCxMHl.jpg I don’t think she conforms to “Islamic Fundamentalist/Wahabi” tenets.

    nk (dbc370)

  157. he was funded by the Kingdom and the Soviet GRU, but he wasn’t particularly Salafi, otherwise Hamas wouldn’t have been against him,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  158. “Who is suggesting that?”

    Patterico – Imam Howard Dean, Joe Biden, President Obama who say radical extremists are not part of Islam.

    Who is saying that? – The U.S. State Department taking out advertisements in Pakistan apologizing for a video by a private citizen after Benghazi, aiding and abetting the OIC in pushing through anti-blasphemy resolutions at the U.N.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  159. the difference between the Mutawakil and the Taliban, is of degree not kind

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/13/opinion/whitson-saudi-flogging/index.html

    narciso (ee1f88)

  160. My Morris Minor convertible has a Fiat twin Cam and is quite the sleeper.

    Gazzer (c44509) — 1/13/2015 @ 5:51 pm

    Suhweeeeeet! Pics or it doesn’t exist!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  161. narciso, I found out today that Pakistan has a caste system (actually called that) that includes Muslims in its “untouchables” (menial underclasses). It blew my mind because I believed that such a thing could not exist in Islam — that all Muslims are equal in the eyes of God.

    nk (dbc370)

  162. Pics at my website. Look foa tab that says “Like Cars”
    http://www.garizonaproperties.com

    Gazzer (c44509)

  163. nk,

    That’s news to me, too, but it may not just be Pakistan if this Wikipedia article is correct.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  164. Colonel pull down the More menu.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  165. Nice cars, Gazzer!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  166. Thank you.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  167. Hoagie, you probably don’t realize this, but almost everything you say about Moslems can be directly paralled by things said about the Jews in Nazi propaganda. I am normally wary of Godwinizing, but in this case it fits very exactly.
    Judaism covers a wide spread of people, from Barbra Streisand to the Satmer Rebbe, but no one disputes that their religion is Judaism, however different the practices. Christianity covers an even wider spectrum, but no one would dispute that Jack Chick and Pope Benedict are not Christians of some kind, or that Shakers and medieval Crusaders were both doing what they thought was true Christianity. So how hard is it to grok that Islam contains a wide spread of practice, raging from jihadis to truly peaceful?

    kishnevi (294553)

  168. While I agree that the overwhelming problem with terrorism in the world is a problem with terrorists who are Islamic, and I also agree that the terrorists believe that their terroristic actions further the cause of Islam, I don’t think it logically follows that “Islam is the problem.”

    How can it not logically follow that “Islam is the problem” if the terrorists believe they’re actions further the cause of Islam? Or do you somehow know better what furthers the cause of Islam than an actual moslem?

    For example, if we had a rash of abortion clinic bombings, and it turned out that each and every bombing was committed by a fundamentalist Christian, I think we could say: a) the problem with the abortion clinic bombings is a problem with bombers who are Christian; and b) the bombers think that their actions further the cause of Christianity, but I would not conclude from those premises that c) “Christianity is the problem.”

    That example is the fallacy. I would conclude Christians are against abortions and abortion clinics and therefore want to eliminate them. Just as moslems are against non moslems and want to eliminate them. BTW, I would also conclude that abortion clinics are the problem not c) “Christianity is the problem.”

    But we need not worry over that. If we keep allowing moslems to immigrate to the United States and stay here abortion clinic bombings will be the least of our problems. Think Sbarro, bar mitzva’s, weddings, malls, deli’s, stadiums, buildings and newspapers. They need to go. Now! They’re not here to assimilate…they’re here to infiltrate! Or has France, Britain and Boston taught us nothing?

    You can deny it all you want but as the saying goes: the truth is out there. Name a place where moslems settle where they don’t bring death and destruction. Germany? France? America? England? The Netherlands? Sudan? Indonesia? Palistine?

    Coming soon to a mall near you.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  169. If any of you have a friend (or friends) originally from India who have legally migrated (bonus points for them right there!) to America, ask them whether “Islam is the problem.” I do have them and I’ve been told almost to a person without hesitation when the subject of Islam arises that Islam is – in essence – a scourge on India… I’ve been told they build their mosques as fast as they can, wherever they can, have no respect for any other religion, customs, lifestyle or people and that people who underestimate their adverse impact do so at their own peril.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  170. I think it’s just being realistic, but if an opinion like that makes me a bigot, I can live with that.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  171. My friend at the Marathon who sells me gas and cigarettes is a Muslim from India. I found out the guy across the street who owns the liquor store is a Muslim from Syria. I told the Marathon guy. He shrugged and said, “I sell lottery tickets”. I guess gambling is a no-no in Islam too.

    Haiku, why must you never invite only one Baptist over to watch the ball game but should invite two or more?

    nk (dbc370)

  172. DRJ @154
    That is also my understanding as to the modern form. But it cropped intermittently before them. The most important instance was the alMohades, whom Sammy cited way earlier. But it should be noted that their Jewish victims seem to have preferred to escape to other Moslem countries and not Christian lands. The family of Maimonides (the most famous case) went from Cordoba to Fez and then to Cairo.
    There is one thing which may be of import. What may be thought of as the start of the decline of Islamic civilization, when it changed from being ahead of Christian society in technology and other aspects, came at about the same time that leadership of Islam started to pass into the hands of Turkic peoples, and ultimately the Ottomans. The process was aided by the depredations of the Mongols and their destruction of Baghdad and the last vestiges of the Arab Caliphate.

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  173. 168.Hoagie, you probably don’t realize this, but almost everything you say about Moslems can be directly paralled by things said about the Jews in Nazi propaganda. I am normally wary of Godwinizing, but in this case it fits very exactly.

    With one striking difference, kishnevi, what I’m saying is not propaganda but observable facts. They are not a religion of peace because wherever they go they bring war. They “give” nothing to any society but take as much as they can. They are not gracious nor generous people. They do not believe in free press, free religion or private property. They believe in theocracy and not a free republic. They don’t even believe in simple human rights for women, gays, Christians, Jews, apostates or children. Correct me where I’m wrong, kishnevi. Oh, and BTW, it is they who have more than once declared jihad (war) on us, not we on them.

    Do you think I enjoy calling 1.3 billion people our enemy? My enemy? Well, I don’t. But I’m also not the type to ignore the threat any more than I did in Nam. I also realize that “every moslem is not a terrorist” but until we can come up with a fool-proof way to determine who’s who they all need to go. I’m not willing to sacrifice my loved ones or even your loved ones on the altar of political correctness so as not to hurt the delicate moslem psyche.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  174. 172… Well, nk, it’s simple. One Baptist will drink all the beer, while two or more would stick to lemonade.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  175. 172
    Of course a Muslim should own a liquor store. After, alcohol is a word derived from Arabic.
    As are algebra, algorithm, chemistry, alkali, and admiral among others.

    kishnevi (a5d1b9)

  176. We had a Custom 500 with a 390 when I was a kid. It was the kind of car that if you know how reliable it was going to be, you would have bough another just to put it in the garage until the first one wore out.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  177. res (Spanish for beef) too, carlitos and I found out a while back. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  178. I also hope you’ve noticed I’m not calling for the genocide of moslems in the United States. I’m calling for their ouster, not their death. Can you claim the same about them when they chant “Death to America”?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  179. Aaarrggh ! Where to start ? (although some of you have approached the thorny subject)

    carlitos #35 – ” I’m not even going to read the excerpt. You may as well tell me what Goebbels said about some Jewish cat.”

    Those socialists who say that confirm that they follow Goebbels’ belief that people should not read disapproved writers, whether or not those writers had anything valid to say – they just confirm that their socialism might as well be national socialism !

    What kind of socialist are *you*, carlitos ?

    When one believes that the source of information is more important than the accuracy of information itself, then one becomes easy to manipulate by preventing access to the sources of information which refute the propaganda – and we get situations like the Cult of Anthropogenic Warming where the cult followers tell each other not to watch or read anywhere that doesn’t agree with the Cult’s beliefs … one gets folk burned at the stake as heretics … one gets Final Solution implemented by bureaucrats …

    When the source of information is more important than the accuracy of the information, we get “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor!” being believed even as more and more people experience how much a lie it was (and is) in their real life …

    OY !

    DRJ #48 – I suspect that you are puzzled because the accuracy of information is more important to you than the source … and I bet you trust, yet verify … I know that *I* do … and I suspect that part of that verification is watching to learn if the words match the actions …

    In colonial India, there was a problem with believing Hindus practising Suttee – and the British solution within the context of freedom of religion which worked was simple and along the lines of “Your religion requires that the widow of the Hindu believer be burned alive upon the funeral pyre whether she wants to or not – and you will make her do it. Our religion requires that the person who burns someone alive has committed murder, and you will hang for it.” – by about a generation later, Suttee was *very* rarely practised, if at all …

    Honour killings and other terrorist acts should be handled the same way …

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  180. Hoagie, the fact that you do not know you are recycling Der Sturmer does not mean that you are not recycling Der Sturmer.

    And almost everything you said in comment 174 is actually false.

    kishnevi (a5d1b9)

  181. First car I owned was a ’64 GTO that I bought in June of ’71 for $550. Owned it for about a year before selling it to buy something that got better than 9 to 10 mpg… a ’68 Ford Falcon! About a week after selling that Goat for $575, I read an article in a car mag that said muscle cars were going to start to appreciate at a fairly rapid rate. Dang it!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  182. Made me look up chemistry. It’s from alchemy, a combination of the Arabic Al (the) and the Greek Hemeia of uncertain Greek etymology. Just Grecum est.

    nk (dbc370)

  183. I am currently on the lookout for what will be my 72nd car. (Not all at once, however)

    Gazzer (c44509)

  184. Weird, a very innocuous comment went to moderation.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  185. GTO to Falcon to a ’68 Chevy Nova with a 307, bench seat and 4 speed manual, to my first new car purchase… a ’74 Fiat X1/9… then a new’78 Buick Turbo Regal (POS LTD)… last GM car I’ll ever buy.

    And on and on…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  186. 179
    Actually I think you are calling for genocide..or at least that is how it would work out in the real world. I think you attitude is precisely what Patterico is criticizing.

    (Patterico if you think these comments cross the line, then I have no rancor if you delete them. But I think what I said has to be said. I take “Never again!” seriously.)

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  187. I had a Nova with a 307. It just wasn’t that bad.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  188. nk…the usual explanation is that the “chem” derives from Khem, the Arab term for Egypt, based on Egypt’s supposed affinity for alchemy. Never heard your derivation before.

    Gazzer, the moderated comment was a little heated, so to speak. I will leave it to our host’s judgment.

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  189. As far as V8s went it wasn’t that good, either.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  190. Six in a row makes her go.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  191. 200 HP, Steve… Who knew that by 1975, that would be a big number!?!?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  192. Going from that Nova to a 2000 lb. car with 66.5 HP was an adjustment. But that’s when I learned how much more fun it is to drive a light, tossable, great handling sports car (mid-engined, too!) than to drive fast in a straight line.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  193. Kish, with all due respect it referred to the number of cars I have owned in a discussion with the Colonel.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  194. Guy I knew that owned a Tiger used to put about 150 lbs of bagged rock in the trunk to improve handling, it was so nose-heavy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  195. When I was stationed in Japan, driving the Nissan Bluebird with the 1.8 turbo was a revelation.

    Contrary to popular opinion I can learn new things.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  196. When that thing spooled up, Jeezus.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  197. I had a Tiger back in the nineties. Totally restored and modded. Handled like a dream with all sorts of custom suspension mods. My favorite of all the cars I have owned.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  198. A question for car folks to ponder: are we currently in the Golden Age of Automobiles? Or on the downhill slope?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  199. Downhill slope. Now, they’ll tell on you.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  200. http://www.chemist.gr/2010/01/2690/ There is debate about whether hemeia came from Black Land (Egypt) or heo archaic for “spill”, with Black Land winning. But there is no debate that it existed in classical and Byzantine Greek as the name for the practice of alchemy, the word alchemy then being unknown, as was the modern science of chemistry. The Arabs used the Arabic article Al but kept the Greek noun. With the coming of the science of chemistry after the Middle Ages, hemeia became a neologism for it while alchemy stayed alchemy.

    nk (dbc370)

  201. I don’t know about caste systems in the muslim world, but I do know that the rich muslim nations of the world hire muslim Bangladeshis to do all the menial labor. On construction sites there are a horrible injury and death rates. The laborers are held in fenced camps and paid a $1 or $2 a day even though they are literally building Dubai, Kuwait etc by hand.
    Black sub saharan african muslims are used as slaves by upper african whiter skinned muslims.
    Christianity for the most part moved beyond this centuries ago.

    There is also no doubt that the Old Testament is full of violence typical to it’s place in time… the real question to ask is “where is Christianity now?”

    Another iteresting thing is how the internet gives a connection back to the crazy iman’s who are all about nonsense like issuing fatwas over people building snowmen… the koran is so strict that it is considered idolatry to build a snow man… sure it is some crazy fool saying so, but muslims worldwide read the text and realize there is no New Testament in the Koran, no Jesus bringing freedom from the law. So yeah, the text calls for your head if you build a snowman and there is no other lens to view that through.

    Playing soccer with catholics is great and I’m glad no one got raped.. am I to assume the local priests were not invited?

    steveg (794291)

  202. Actually I think you are calling for genocide..or at least that is how it would work out in the real world. I think you attitude is precisely what Patterico is criticizing.

    I see, kashnevi, if I say I’m not for something you, since you know better what I’m for than I do, you decide to inform me of my beliefs. Thanks, spoken like a true leftist. How “it would work out in the real world” is moslems would stay where their institutions and political allies are and leave me, and you the hell alone. I do agree my attitude is precisely what Patterico is criticizing and I believe him, and you to be very, very wrong. However, I do appreciate Patterico allowing me to air my view here. But I do have an honest question for you and Patterico. The next time moslems kill a bunch of westerners or Jews or Americans or the next time boko harum slaughters a few hundred people, will you then consider that perhaps, just perhaps I’m right? Because honestly, if today they completely stop all their killing I am willing to admit you and Patterico were right.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  203. Hey Pat, maybe I shouldn’t continue being a reader of the site. I thought that I could help to improve it and enlighten a few folks here and there, but maybe that’s not the right mission for me right now.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  204. Colonel, I think cars today are clearly immensely more capable in every way than older cars. However, I don’t know how anyone will restore them in the future what with all the electrics, etc. If it is even allowed, that is.
    That said, all my fave cars are from the 50s thru 70s. When I lived in LA (10 tears ago) my newest car was 1969. My newest car today is a 96 Grand Marquis because we need AC here in AZ. But, for the most part, I can still fix pretty much anything on it.
    To your point with the X-19, I have always found it more fun to drive a slow car fast, rather than a fast car slow.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  205. The only way to defeat Wahabism is to have nuclear power plants and Hyundai-priced Teslas. Then we can bug out of the Middle East like they want us to, and they can overthrow the Golden Apes and take over the oil wells like they want to, but the oil wells won’t be oil wealth anymore and they won’t be able to finance their expansion into the West anymore. Or to the East, North or South.

    nk (dbc370)

  206. Gazzer, it looks like we both got sent to the penalty box. But mine was probably more deserved than yours.

    Hoagie, I am Jewish. G-d willing, I will eventually make aliyah before I die. And if I don’t, I will do so at the time the dead are resurrected.
    So I know there is a whole bunch of Muslims who want to kill me specifically. You they just want to kill on general principles. But I also know that there is a whole bunch more Moslems who have no such wish, for you or me. And that you in your ignorance, are doing everything in your power to make them decide they should cast their lot with the jihadis because all they see in you is someone who hates them.
    A parallel.. I am very unsympathetic to the Israeli right and the settler movement. But the BDS movement has turned me, several times, into someone who publicly defends them.
    You really want to defeat the jihadis? Help build up moderate Islam. It is there, if you actually bothered to look.

    kishnevi (294553)

  207. Thanks for the Gatestone Institute link at #114, daleyrocks. Those are stunning figures and the piece also details interesting information with respect to the causes/influencers of the crime epidemic in that particular population and the recent push back attempts by the Dutch government.

    elissa (d29595)

  208. Hey Pat, maybe I shouldn’t continue being a reader of the site. I thought that I could help to improve it and enlighten a few folks here and there, but maybe that’s not the right mission for me right now.

    Too icky for you? Afraid people will find out you read a site with such questionable connections?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  209. I am kidding, sort of — and harshly so, I know — but given my question at 151 and your response at 202, I am wondering if there is a grain of truth there . . . and the irritation you’re seeing is probably a product of the fact that I am wondering that.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  210. “168.Hoagie, you probably don’t realize this, but almost everything you say about Moslems can be directly paralled by things said about the Jews in Nazi propaganda.”

    kishnevi – I thought the analogy you would have made is that almost everything Moslems say about Jews can be directly paralleled by things said about the Jews by Nazis.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  211. “Thanks for the Gatestone Institute link at #114, daleyrocks. Those are stunning figures and the piece also details interesting information with respect to the causes/influencers of the crime epidemic in that particular population and the recent push back attempts by the Dutch government.”

    elissa – You are welcome. My guess is carlitos has no familiarity with such statistic or even that such government statistics are available before he goes into his name calling act.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  212. 198… too true re: GPS and recording, Steve. And Gazzer, you’re right about the systems, electronics and complexities of the modern auto. They’re so good and competent, these modern cars, but software based and you definitely need to know what you’re doing… Not as simple as fuel, air, spark anymore. I think it will always be a good idea to own at least one “old-school” car… reasonably reliable, easy to fix, parts readily available, etc.

    I enjoy cars with personality and, in my case, that means I’ll always own at least one Italian car. All other cars are just reliable transportation, lol.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  213. Daley, Moslem antisemitism is to great degree a rehash of Nazi antisemitism. The difference is that, unlije Hoagie, they know and intend that.
    But I am more concerned about Hoagie’s views because ultimately his attitude benefits the jihadis. Convince the nonviolent Muslims you hate them, and they will not mind if the jihadis kill you.

    kishnevi (a5d1b9)

  214. “Daley, Moslem antisemitism is to great degree a rehash of Nazi antisemitism. The difference is that, unlije Hoagie, they know and intend that.
    But I am more concerned about Hoagie’s views because ultimately his attitude benefits the jihadis. Convince the nonviolent Muslims you hate them, and they will not mind if the jihadis kill you.”

    kishnevi – That plays right into the three stages of jihad video I linked earlier in the thread and the constant concern by some over “Islamophobia” which never seems to materialize. I saw Angela Davis, now a professor of victimology at some UC campus, give a commencement address a few years back and the uplifting topic of her speech was that Islamophobia was the biggest problem in the world today. Where? Some twatwaffles never change.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. Again, Pipes disagrees with Wilders on some things and agrees with him on others. I fail to see how that makes Pipes a bigot.

    Carlitos is a perfect example of a quasi-centrist, squish-squish, borderline liberal who is the reason the lunacy of political correctness has infected no less than, for example, the US military. His mindset has cheapened the word “racist” and “bigot” to such a great degree through the decades that they’ve lost their original meaning and impact. Similarly, his form of bias has also cheapened the word “pollution,” so that comparatively innocuous CO2 is now equated with CO or SO2.

    Gawds, how I loathe left-leaning sentiment, certainly as it has mildewed and decomposed in the 21st century.

    Mark (c160ec)

  216. Convince the nonviolent Muslims you hate them, and they will not mind if the jihadis kill you.

    Your ethos is merely a variation of the sappiness of the Stockholm Syndrome, or the lunacy of being an enabler to the abusive spouse, or the rationalization that if a woman puts on a sexy outfit, she’s asking for it.

    Mark (c160ec)

  217. The violent extremists are merely vanilla scented eligible bachelor activist bundles of love with a warped view of Islam according to the newest spin by the White House.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  218. 132. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=islamic+fundamentalism&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cislamic%20fundamentalism%3B%2Cc0

    Use of the term started abruptly about 1978

    This shows you the decline after about 1995 and especially 1999.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=islamic+fundamentalism&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cislamic%20fundamentalism%3B%2Cc0

    With smoothing of 0: (which shows you it really started about 1982)

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=islamic+fundamentalism&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cislamic%20fundamentalism%3B%2Cc0

    Islamic fundamentalist is much more common than Islamic fundamentalism:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=islamic+fundamentalism%2C+Islamic+fundamentalist&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cislamic%20fundamentalism%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CIslamic%20fundamentalist%3B%2Cc0

    (Islamic fundamentalist started in the early 1960’s but picked up about 1979)

    Wahabism, up and down from about the year 1900:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Wahabism&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CWahabism%3B%2Cc0

    Wahabism has a lot more in books.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=islamic+fundamentalism%2CWahabism&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cislamic%20fundamentalism%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CWahabism%3B%2Cc0

    Wahabi was very big around 1820:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=islamic+fundamentalism%2CWahabi%2C&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cislamic%20fundamentalism%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CWahabi%3B%2Cc0

    Salafi really picked up after the year 2002:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=salafi&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Csalafi%3B%2Cc0

    Islamic fundamentalist is much more common than Wahabism

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Wahabism%2C+Islamic+fundamentalist&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CWahabism%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CIslamic%20fundamentalist%3B%2Cc0

    Or even Wahabi:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Wahabi%2CIslamic+fundamentalist&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CWahabi%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CIslamic%20fundamentalist%3B%2Cc0

    Islamic terrorist starts abruptly in 1976, shoots up for a peak about 1979, drops, and starts climbing again after 2001.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Islamic+terrorist&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CIslamic%20terrorist%3B%2Cc0

    Islamic terrorism shows about the same pattern:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Islamic+terrorism&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CIslamic%20terrorism%3B%2Cc0

    Islamist exists but is used litle prior to 1979, when it has a peak and drop, and has had a steady climb since about 1993:

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Islamist&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CIslamist%3B%2Cc0

    There was a little bit of Islamic violence circa 1955 to 1958 (what was that about?) and it had a little use again around 1979 to the early 1980,s and has bene steadily climbing since 1991, but dropped somewhat 2005 to 2008.

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Islamic+violence&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CIslamic%20violence%3B%2Cc0

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  219. Violent Muslims have existed since the late 1950s, but skyrocketed, suprassing all previous peaks, after 2001:

    Link

    When you smooth it out, the last climb began in 1985, and all previous peaks were surpassed in 1995:

    Link

    Not a big problem before circa 1979.

    This can’t be essential to Islam.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  220. 212. kishnevi (a5d1b9) — 1/13/2015 @ 8:50 pm

    Moslem antisemitism is to great degree a rehash of Nazi antisemitism.

    It’s plagiarism.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  221. The ew York Ti8mes noticed this:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/world/newspaper-in-israel-scrubs-women-from-a-photo-of-paris-unity-rally.html

    This is a new thing, last couple of years.

    These women are fully dressed!!

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  222. 207. …Too icky for you? Afraid people will find out you read a site with such questionable connections?
    Patterico (9c670f) — 1/13/2015 @ 8:33 pm

    My ears are burning.

    I asked a simple question. If I’m getting Islam wrong, I’m getting the same things wrong al-Baghdadi is.

    And lots of other people. The list is long.

    I don’t think I’m getting Islam wrong. But I think it’s legitimate to ask the people claiming I am where, exactly, I’m screwing up.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  223. Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/13/2015 @ 11:46 pm

    If I’m getting Islam wrong, I’m getting the same things wrong al-Baghdadi is.

    He’s getting things wrong on purpose.

    Ad I don’t think he – and people like him – are the only honest Moslems.

    But I think it’s legitimate to ask the people claiming I am where, exactly, I’m screwing up.

    The biggest place is that – when does all that about (offensive) jihad apply? When there’s a legitimate Moslem ruler of all the Moslems.

    If there is no Islamic state, and if there is no caliph (or Mahdi for Shiites) there can be no jihad.

    Now Baghdadi claims to be that person, and he seems to be claiming false ancestry to boost his case.

    The defensive jihad is also based on a pack of lies as to what’s happening.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  224. They’re not Protestants – Jihad is inextricably connected with an Islamic state and ruler of all Moslems.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  225. If it’s on purpose, Sammy, it’s an easy mistake to make.

    It’s in black and white.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  226. #215… I have to say Mark is close to nailing it there.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  227. oh jeez Mr. carlitos if you go away I’m a have to work twice as hard to put some understanding on these threads

    good thing i just stocked up on nespresso pods

    happyfeet (831175)

  228. “Scheherazade Needs A New Tale:”

    “I find myself increasingly repulsed by Muslim practices and beliefs. Middle Eastern, African, Asian, American, the country of origin makes no difference. Women and children treated as chattel, genital mutilation, child brides, honor killings, culturally accepted pedophilia, the black drapes and head coverings, no rights, no votes, little to non-existent educational opportunities, no voice, no choices, no recourse. Persecution of homosexuals. Imprisonment, stoning and whipping for morality crimes. Lack of free speech. The foul treatment of non-Muslims in Islamic countries. The demented hatred of Jews. Sharia Law. Wahhabism. Madrasas. Blind obedience to Mullahs.Praying towards Mecca – a place on the map few will ever see. Individuality is shut down, originality and freedom of the mind discouraged. Islam pisses on human talents that fall outside the dark walls of its faith. Hell, I even dislike their dislike of dogs….

    My lip curls at their love of theocracies, a willingness to subjugate themselves to the whims of dissolute rulers along side an ancient text they can’t even begin to comprehend, subsuming their divine individuality to a tide of dogmatic mandates. I have no use, or respect, for the people who follow this religion. I’m past tired of their bombing, shooting, acid throwing, coup d’etat loving, rioting asses and it looks like the rest of the world could stand a break from these murdering bastards, too.”

    – Daphne, 11/29/2008

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  229. 1.)Hoagie, I am Jewish. G-d willing, I will eventually make aliyah before I die. And if I don’t, I will do so at the time the dead are resurrected.
    So I know there is a whole bunch of Muslims who want to kill me specifically. You they just want to kill on general principles. 2.)But I also know that there is a whole bunch more Moslems who have no such wish, for you or me. 3.) And that you in your ignorance, are doing everything in your power to make them decide they should cast their lot with the jihadis because all they see in you is someone who hates them.
    4.)You really want to defeat the jihadis? Help build up moderate Islam. It is there, if you actually bothered to look.

    1.) Therefore kishnevi, we both agree they want to kill both of us!
    2.) No you don’t. You assume there are even as their doctrines repudiate that assumption.
    3.) “my ignorance”? First when I pointed out I am not for genocide you accused me of being for genocide. Now because I disagree I’m ignorant! Perfect! The entire leftist argument for everything in two statements. I’m not ignorant, keshnevi, I just have a different view. I’ve read moslem texts many times, know moslems and read the papers. I just disagree…live with it.
    4.) How am I, or you or America as non-believing outsiders going to help build up a moderate Islam? If they themselves can’t seem to accomplish that task over 1400 years what can we do about it?

    5)Daley, Moslem antisemitism is to great degree a rehash of Nazi antisemitism. The difference is that, unlije Hoagie, they know and intend that.
    6.)But I am more concerned about Hoagie’s views because ultimately his attitude benefits the jihadis. Convince the nonviolent Muslims you hate them, and they will not mind if the jihadis kill you.

    5.) What do you mean “unlike Hoagie they know and intend that”? Are you insinuating I’m a Nazi?
    6.) Don’t be concerned about my views or attitudes, kishnevi, it’s not I who suffers from Stockholm Syndrome. And once again you presume to know my heart and mind; where here have I stated I “hate” anyone? Just because I don’t trust them and don’t believe a word they say you assume I “hate” them. Well, keshnevi, I don’t hate one single soul on this earth. Not even those who have harmed me. You see, I’m Christian not moslem. Which also means I don’t want to kill you because you’re a Jew. Perhaps you should reconsider whose side your on and stop making excuses for moslems. Unless you want the kind of world where you can go to the soccer stadium on a Sunday afternoon, eat falafel and dates while you watch moslems blow the brains out of “adulteress'” with AK-47’s.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  230. carlitos-
    So, you don’t think I appreciate your “mission” to “enlighten” me?

    You’re right, I don’t, anymore than you would appreciate it if my attitude was that you need to be “enlightened”.
    I thought we were talking about topics and sharing facts and opinions.
    Yes, there are things that I think I’m right on and you’re wrong, and vice versa,
    but I never thought in terms of you needing to be enlightened by me.
    Maybe that is making too much of your wording,
    maybe it is exactly the point,
    IDK on that one.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  231. Enlighten? I thought we were all just talking here. I’m not sharing my three remaining 100 watt incandescent bulbs and that’s final. The local Home Depot only has 40 and 60 watt ones left.

    nk (dbc370)

  232. 229. carlitos-
    So, you don’t think I appreciate your “mission” to “enlighten” me?

    You’re right, I don’t…

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/14/2015 @ 6:17 am

    I don’t presume to speak for you, doc. And it is entirely likely you don’t like a word I’m saying.

    But the facts are the facts. Islam actually has rules about raping captive women. ISIS just published a booklet about why it’s cool for them to deal in Yazidi sex slaves. And the thing is, it’s black and white Islamic theology. It’s plain as day. When ISIS says they’re following their prophet’s example they’re not lying.

    http://quran.com/4/24

    Surat An-Nisā’ (The Women) 4:24

    And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

    Married women are not prohibited if you capture them in battle. This is just one of the rules Islam has for who can and who can not be your sex slave.

    Boko Haram, ISIS, they’re not getting their ideas from nowhere. And the dirty little secret is moderate Muslims don’t speak up more because they really don’t have a case to make. The so-called extremists have the better argument. Any Iranian Mullah or Saudi cleric can tell you that.

    Hate to deliver the bad news.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  233. nk, for you.

    http://www.zoro.com/i/G1613351/?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA

    Incandescent Lamp, Lamp Type A-Shape, Lamp Shape A19, Base Type Medium Screw (E26), 100/89 Watts, Initial Lumens 1624, Max. Overall Length 4-7/16 In., Lamp Dia. 2-3/8 In., Lamp Finish Inside Frost, Color Temp. 2700K, Average Life 2000/5400 hr., 130/120 Voltage, Lamp Designation 100A/RS/STG, Shatter-Resistant Yes, Meets 2012 Lighting Legislation Energy

    You can still get 100 watt bulbs. I’ll let you in on something; Congress in its infinite wisdom banned them from home use. But mercury bulbs are too dangerous for some industrial applications. They aren’t vibration-resistant.

    And nobody checks to see where you’re going to use them.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  234. That is actually a benefit conferred by the conqueror to the conquered. When the stronger people “contribute” their genetic material to the weaker, the offspring may be strong enough to resist another conquest (and to protect their women).

    nietzs ke (dbc370)

  235. Excuses. More excuses.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  236. Thanks, Steve. There’s also a halogen one disguised as an incandescent which I like even better as a reading light but it’s around three times the cost.

    nk (dbc370)

  237. Does anybody try to rationalize the codified rape of women for any other religion besides Islam?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  238. nietsz ke was being sarcastic, I’m pretty sure, Steve.

    nk (dbc370)

  239. nk, I haven’t bought from them. But the loophole about industrial incandescent bulbs exists. Apparently they’re made with an especially strong filament. And nothing else will do for heavy duty applications.

    I can’t vouch for my link. But if you check around you can find them.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  240. There are story(ies) in the Old Testament about the near-extermination of tribes (of Benjamin?) and forced marriages (which I kind of skimmed over).

    nk (dbc370)

  241. 237. nietsz ke was being sarcastic, I’m pretty sure, Steve.
    nk (dbc370) — 1/14/2015 @ 6:51 am

    You’re probably right. But it raises an important point. How many religions demand its followers avenge the prophet?

    I can only think of one.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  242. 239. There are story(ies) in the Old Testament about the near-extermination of tribes (of Benjamin?) and forced marriages (which I kind of skimmed over).

    nk (dbc370) — 1/14/2015 @ 6:54 am

    There’s a story in the Old Testament about God telling some guy to kill his son.

    You may have heard of it.

    The thing is, it wasn’t an instruction to go around killing your kids. It was a lesson about how the God of Israel wasn’t Moloch.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  243. Heh. The daughter’s first and last names can be found in the same notable triumvirate-Rome family so we joke about it. I told her how, under Roman law, the pater familias could kill his children or sell them into slavery. At any age. A fifty-year old Imperator if his father was still alive was still just a “son”.

    nk (dbc370)

  244. Sammy, I shortened your absurdly long links above. Please notice how I did it and do it that way in the future?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  245. Look nk if we’re going to drag Augustinian law into this discussion of religion we’re going to be at this all day and we’re not going to get anywhere.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  246. Actually the custom was older than Rome. Dating back at least to Aeneas carrying his father in his arms*. But Roman law is one of the pillars of western civilization. And we outgrew its more witchcraftery provisions. Including the death penalty for lese majeste, which was Augustinian.

    *Although a guy who got Aphrodite to be your mom should deserve some extra respect, right? 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  247. I know it was older than Rome, nk. My point is Christianity had something different to say about it.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  248. The church fathers come down as kill joys because they seemed to be objecting to sex in general. It wasn’t the case. It’s just that extramarital sex was widely accepted in the Roman world. And most extramarital sex was between free men and prostitutes. And most hookers were slaves. And it was the slavery bit they had a problem with. By definition a slave is not free to give her (or his) consent.

    Oddly enough I have the same problem.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  249. I’m trying to lighten up little, too.

    So … it’s a Roman legion encampment some place not Rome and the centurion hears a commotion from one of the sentry posts. He shouts, “Lucius, what’s going on?” And Lucius answers, “Sir, I’ve caught a Tartar”. The centurion says, “Well, bring him in, boy”. And Lucius says, “He won’t let me.”

    nk (dbc370)

  250. There’s a Roman centurion who’s name is unknown to us. But his nickname is; it was “Bring me another.”

    They had vine sticks, the forerunner of modern military swagger sticks.

    “Bring me another” kept breaking his while beating his troops.

    I believe the troops fragged him during one uprising or another.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  251. == maybe I shouldn’t continue being a reader of the site. I thought that I could help to improve it and enlighten a few folks here and there, but maybe that’s not the right mission for me right now. (carlitos)====

    Carlitos, now that you have shown your hand, so to speak, it explains a lot. So thank you for that. As both a long time participant and observer on this site I’ve observed that conversation which attempts to persuade and enlighten by primarily showing contempt and using insults rarely succeeds in its mission to get the open minded attention of others.

    elissa (757b3f)

  252. I like to talk to people online for entertainment and to learn, but mostly to learn. I state my views and others state their views, and it’s up to the readers to decide who has the better argument. So either I get the satisfaction of knowing I’ve made my case, or the other guy gets that satisfaction and I learn something. Win-Win.

    In other words, hang around, carlitos.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  253. Steve57
    Let me try to be clear (though I think quoting my comment to carlitos has little to do with the Islam subject).
    I think in the Koran and the other writings of Islam there is plenty to justify the “extremists” position (“when you find one hiding behind a tree, kill him”, or some such). I think this is generally quite different from the violence in the OT (though someone mentioned something that at least on the surface seemed more lasting, I didn’t look into it).
    (I also think Mohammed was a false prophet and that Islam is a false religion, but since we are talking about US government policy that is not a central concern).

    But, I’m guessing that the number of self-identified Muslims that can read, let alone read Arabic, is relatively few. So I do not think “I’m a Muslim” means “Let me kill some infidels”.
    As far as enabling goes these are my thoughts:
    it takes a degree of heroism to actively oppose, i.e., not passively enable, rampant evil when it is the norm. In fact, if one has responsibility for a family I’m not sure that even heroism would require it. I don’t think every farmer in Germany in WWII needed to standup in the gestapo’s face and say, “No, I’m not giving my food to you Nazi pigs”. Likewise, I am not sure I expect the “average Muslim on the street” to jump in front of a mob to protect a Christian.
    But I do think that the “average Muslim on the street of the Twin Cities” is more likely to resist a “radical” Imam, especially if society supported such behavior, rather than protecting the Imam as we do now. That is why I think in fact many “Muslims” would be happy to live here and be safe to have here, if we had a sensible policy about those who promote sharia.
    Sharia is not just religious conviction, and not even religious conviction that informs what one would champion for public policy, but it is a call for a legal system to supersede the one we have. I know you know that, I’m just saying it to give context for my thinking.
    I have read things from a couple of ex-Muslim now Christians who say that actually the rise of “fundamentalist” Islam has caused many Muslims, especially younger, to question what they believe. I think throwing those people in with jihadist Muslims and saying none of them can be trusted is not only illogical but alienating many people unnecessarily.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  254. Hey, nk, we have lots of oil and gas, for now and long into the future. You will be able to drive anything you want as long as a conservative wins the White House.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  255. But, DRJ, I’m not about offering a silly opinion. If we’re going to adopt the position that all opinions are equally valid then anything goes. So I can hold the opinion that the Sun rises in the South and nobody can gainsay me. Because it’s just an opinion.

    I guess it doesn’t matter that I offered chapter and verse, with links, and carlitos offers vague assertions with nothing.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  256. MD in Philly, we have no argument.

    The largest Muslim majority country in terms of population is Indonesia. How many speak Arabic?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  257. Muslim majority country in terms of population

    Could I be more redundant if I tried?

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  258. I’m not sure I understand your point, Steve57. I’m not saying all opinions are equal and have to be accepted. I’m saying everyone gets the chance to judge for themselves who they agree or disagree with.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  259. I also think we can learn from discussions, even ones where you think the other guy was vague or argumentative or downright contrary. I know it makes me work harder to have discussions like that, but I also know it isn’t a lot of fun.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  260. Maybe I don’t have a point. What I was trying to suggest is that some opinions are more valid because you can check them out and confirm them.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  261. The link at #114 is enlightening, thanks elissa for highlighting that. And the pointed arguments about the nature of muslim beliefs are spot on. It is also worth remembering that the Barbary War was not an aberration. The warlords along the southern coast of the Mediterranean had been pillaging far and wide for centuries. Red haired women from Irish coastal communities commanded an especially high premium in the slave markets of Barbary. Three lanteen-rigged ships and 150 pirates were more than enough to lay waste to any number of small fishing villages. These activities went on well into the 19th century, but they never really stopped. “Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead” deals with a situation that anyone under the age of 60 is likely to be unaware of as they have been brainwashed by our public “education” system. I’ll let carlitos do his own googling on that.

    The assimilation of immigrants is something that has been remarkable for our country. Japanese and Chinese workers came here to earn a living, and they stayed and raised families that integrated into our society. Gardeners in L. A. in the 1960s who had been placed in concentration camps by FDR would proudly talk about their sons and daughters who became Doctors out of UCLA and USC. I rather doubt the current crop of welfare clients wearing burkas are cut from the same clothe.

    bobathome (d4306f)

  262. Thanks, DRJ. Try as I could, I could not picture an electric motorcycle.

    No, Steve, that’s not a motorcycle.

    Yes, I know you were going to link the Army’s electric mini-bike.

    nk (dbc370)

  263. Working harder is what I try to do. I don’t think my opinions are correct because they’re mine. They’re mine because they check out. If they don’t check out, I change them.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  264. I knew you’d understand, nk.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  265. Mark (c160ec) — 1/13/2015 @ 9:35 pm

    Similarly, his form of bias has also cheapened the word “pollution,” so that comparatively innocuous CO2 is now equated with CO or SO2.

    No, lawyers did that, because everyone understands that is not what Congress or anyone else meant by pollution in 1970 when the Clean Air Act was passed, and to count that as pollution stretches the meaning of the word out of all rationality.

    It didn’t mean something that only mattered to the extent it affected the entire world (nobody cares that local CO2 goes up from 350 to 400 ppm for example) but affected the entire world nfinitesimally, so that regulation would change nothing, except in people’s imaginations.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  266. “Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead” deals with a situation that anyone under the age of 60 is likely to be unaware of as they have been brainwashed by our public “education” system.

    It was nothing like the movie. Mr. Perdicaris was an expatriate who had run off to Greece to avoid military service in the Civil War, and he looked nothing like Candace Bergen. Somewhere along the way, he had also run off with the wife and kids of an important American, some kind of electrical engineer. It was he and one of the kids who were kidnapped. Maybe Teddy used him as a pretext to practice a little gunboat diplomacy but it would have been only a pretext. The kid was important, I suppose. Ok.

    nk (dbc370)

  267. nk (dbc370) — 1/14/2015 @ 6:33 am

    I’m not sharing my three remaining 100 watt incandescent bulbs and that’s final. The local Home Depot only has 40 and 60 watt ones left.

    Home Depot? That’s a major chain.

    Try visiting a lamp store, or a 99 cent store. There might be some there.

    And like everything else that’s discontinued, that’s not illegal to sell across state lines, they are available on eBay.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-CASE-OF-NEW-24-FROSTED-Incandescent-LIGHT-BULBS-100-WATT-SYLVANIA-/251789894725?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item3a9fd8e445

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  268. Patterico (9c670f) — 1/14/2015 @ 7:14 am

    Sammy, I shortened your absurdly long links above. Please notice how I did it and do it that way in the future?

    What did you do?

    If you mean #218, which I was happy to see got posted in spite of the fact there are so many, they don’t look any shorter to me.

    With the New York Times, I can chop it off where it doesn’t matter (after html) but the ngram links I don’t understand very well. I still see here the %2B and %3C which probably can be replaced by the proper character.

    Tinyurl and such things could probably shorten them, although it would be time consuming; and it wouldn’t look so long if the link button was used – but that hides what is going, and, at least the first time, it should be seen, and also, depending on the browser, I can’t always use that.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  269. nk, so if the victim is on your undesirable list, the kidnapping is Ok? My point was that terror and pillaging has been a way of life for muslims for 1200 years, and nothing is going to change that until the profit motive is gone. TDR understood that.

    By the way, be careful if you’re driving thru West Oakland. If you should have the misfortune of being in an accident, the event will occasion a raid by the scum who control the city. The latest accident involved two Berkeley residents, one on a bike, the other in a pickup. The bicyclist is in critical condition and was robbed as he lay unconscious on the road. The 80 year old driver of the pickup was also relieved of his belongings, but happily he was “not injured in the crash, or the robbery.” So this worked out relatively well for West Oakland. Witnesses refused to give their names to the reporter. This seems to be a regular event in West Oakland. The story continues:

    Another witness told KPIX he wasn’t surprised by the crime, adding that thieves wait for accidents and then pounce on the victims. “[It happens] all the time. It doesn’t matter what happens on the street, it’s gonna happen,” he said.

    No response yet from the president. Probably waiting to see whether the bicyclist or the robbers look they could be his son. Happily, there is no mention of any police acitivies that might result in yet another opportunity to call in Rev. Al.

    bobathome (d4306f)

  270. Steve57,

    I guess I have a different view of what online discussions are about. I think people rarely change their minds in these discussions, whether they’re participants or readers, so it isn’t about who has the most links or the best sources. (Having said that, I try to provide links and reliable sources because it’s part of online courtesy, and is helpful and professional. But I don’t think readers are going to believe an argument solely because of the source. They have to already be open to the concept and ithe argument has to make sense to them.) The point for me is to think about topics in a more serious and in-depth way than I do in casual conversation.

    It’s much harder to defend our positions when we are being questioned than it is to make a blanket statement of what we believe. The Socratic process can be enlightening for everyone, but I think it is the target of the questions — the person who offered the idea and now has to defend it — who learns and benefits the most from being challenged. In other words, to me, these debates aren’t about enlightening other people, they are about enlightening and challenging myself.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  271. What carlitos fails to understand is if the U.S. hate the same hate speech and incitement laws as the Netherlands, half of Congressional Democrats would be called up in front of judges for calling Republicans racist or bigoted or more realistically the Democrats would have prerigged the game and used the preprinted complaint formed used against Wilders which were ready to go before he opened his mouth just because he was a big target.

    I hope we don’t get those government approved speech laws in this country, but that seems to be the Obama is moving. Maybe Carlitos will celebrate.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  272. I can’t find the words to express my outrage, bobathome.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  273. Plus, has anybody seen or heard the clip of Wilders calling the Moroccans scum? I have not found it, which makes me wonder whether it really exists.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  274. I’m worried about government speech codes, too. Did you see the Hot Air story that only 36% think we can blaspheme religion, daleyrocks? That makes me worry free speech is a concept not many people get.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  275. I would always go to a Menard’s first, if given the choice. They have 100, 150, 200,and even 300 W “Heavy Duty” Shop Bulbs. I try to stock up on them and other things when I’m in Ohio.
    I even have a T-shirt. (A gift).

    My comment to carlitos was in reference to the attitude he expressed, that we were not benefitting from his mission to enlighten some of us. I usually have better things to do than deal with someone who is condescending and isn’t about to listen to what I say anyway. It can be hard to even learn something if a person doesn’t seriously listen long enough to respond meaningfully.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  276. 256.Muslim majority country in terms of population
    Could I be more redundant if I tried?
    Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/14/2015 @ 8:25 am

    A Muslim majority country where the population is over 50% Muslim,
    and non-Muslims are less than 50%.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  277. More on Wilders’ statement here. I think he used the phrase “Moroccan scum” in a TV interview. What’s interesting to me is that, at the link, it says Wilders claims more than 3/4 of the Dutch citizens who have gone to Syria to fight are Moroccans. That’s stunning, if true.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  278. DRJ, if you have a recent vintage car, the progressive answer is be sure to press the lock button if it hasn’t activated automatically. And keep the window “rolled” up. The problem with that is you are still a sitting duck, and the window and the locked door are almost no protection against someone who really wants to get at you. The question at this point is when is “hit and run” the better part of valor?

    It is rather clever of these thugs to mug accident victims since they are already in a state of shock and not able to function at a high level. I’m sure the “humanities” side of the Berkeley faculty are appreciative of the progress made by their clients as evidenced by these enhanced pillaging skills. And, need it be said, it is further proof that we need to increase the doll yet again so that these poor victims of society won’t feel compelled to engage in such antisocial activities.

    bobathome (d4306f)

  279. “More on Wilders’ statement here.”

    DRJ – Thanks, I saw that article and had seen reference that the comment was made in an interview with a broadcaster. What I have not seen, as I said was the recording or clip, only claims that he used the word. There is no context. He could have been merely repeating something, a question, the broadcaster said first. I think it is pretty strange that if people are wee wee’d up about his use of the word scum, we don’t see prominent evidence of it.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  280. nk, I recently bought some 200w bulbs at Walmart to fend off a freeze in my yard and protect some of my foliage.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  281. I don’t speak Dutch but it’s similar to German so …

    I think they show the interview and Wilders discusses it here, but the problem is the interview was in Dutch so it’s hard to find and harder to understand the full context.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  282. 280. I think 200 watt bulbs, and even 150 watt bulbs, and certainly all 3-way bulbs, which work in regular outlets, but I am not sure at what strength, are specialty bulbs not covered by the ant-incandescent bulb law.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  283. DRJ – Thanks. I don’t speak Dutch either, but I did learn German. To me it sounded like he was reciting the crime, unemployment and public assistance statistics that he has used in other clips I have seen translated, but also making the point he does not want to deport all Dutch-Moroccans, only those with dual nationality with serious criminal issues.

    In this country we have Eric Holder accusing us of being a nation of cowards because we don’t want a national conversation on race. Eric Holder doesn’t want a national conversation on race, he wants a national lecture on race and anyone who brings up uncomfortable or inconvenient facts is branded a racist or accused of attempting to take us back to the days of Jim Crow. Just review Holder’s baseless hate mongering comments over voter ID as an example. Or look at La Raza on immigration.

    Instead Wilders is attempting to have one of those national conversations on race and immigration and gets hauled before prosecutors because of stupid euroweenie politically correct multi culti kumbaya laws to protect anybody from being offended by anything and he gets labeled a bigot by fuzzy headed thinkers like carlitos.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  284. I have a friend and neighbor who speaks some Dutch, do you want me to ask her to listen to it? (And French and Flemish and German and Danish, as well as English. That’s what growing up in Belgium gets you.)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  285. 114. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/13/2015 @ 4:49 pm

    With respect to the Moroccan-Dutch, they appear to be a largely craptacular species of interlopers so scum appears to be a pretty good adjective. Probably from another website which carlitos will categorically dismiss:

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-netherlands You notice here the problem is with the second generation.

    NOT the immigrants. The terrorists in France were also second generation.

    Most modern liberal western societies have a problem when, for whatever reason, from whatever nucleus, the crime rate starts to rise among a sub-group of the population.

    They don’t know how to handle it.

    Sammy Finkelman (be6791)

  286. “NOT the immigrants. The terrorists in France were also second generation.”

    Sammy – Yes, I noticed it. How does that help explain the poorly assimilated religious scholars of Boko Haram?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  287. I like how you stick to things, daleyrocks. Good work.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  288. MD,

    One of my family’s traditions — from an era long, long ago — is that young people were expected to travel to Europe during or after college. The idea was that young people need “finishing,” and going to Europe for 3-4 weeks was our middle-class way of getting finished. When it was my turn, I went with my Grandmother who liked to travel with a tour guide so she didn’t have to drive or park. Our tour guide was Belgian, and he spoke more languages than I can remember. What I do remember is that he learned them in school, and he said Belgians spoke several languages because his country was the crossroads for much of Europe. He was a very impressive man, and it left me with the impression that learning other languages is a valuable part of a well-rounded education.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  289. In case my earlier comments were too vague, I’m glad carlitos commented here because it forced me to research Daniel Pipes and Geert Wilders in greater depth. I was familiar with both of them before, but now I know a lot more than I did and I’m enlightened as a result. For instance, I realize Daniel Pipes consistently sounded the alarm about radical Islamists without becoming an Islamophobe. I also realize Geert Wilders and Holland face a real problem from Moroccan immigrant criminals/jihadists. Now I see why he’s popular in his country.

    Thus, carlitos did what he set out to do — he enlightened me. Granted, it wasn’t the enlightenment he wanted but I nevertheless learned from our conversation, and I think others did, too. That’s why I think discussions like this can be beneficial.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  290. Here’s a simple formula – a religion is defined by its adherents. Islam is what Muslims make it. ISIS members are Muslims, as Hezbollah members and Boko Haram members. However, Zuhdi Jasser, the Mayor of Rotterdam, the Kurds, the Kosovars, and others are Muslims as well. I’m not going to say which one is the official Islamic teaching, because I don’t care. Crush the Islamic Supremacists, welcome the noble and tolerant.

    OmegaPaladin (a0e77e)

  291. Thanks DRJ

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  292. OmegaPaladin (a0e77e) — 1/14/2015 @ 12:44 pm

    As usual, someone succeeds in saying what I was trying to in about 1/20th the time and space.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  293. 269. Steve57,

    I guess I have a different view of what online discussions are about…

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/14/2015 @ 9:17 am

    Maybe we don’t.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)

  294. If that was unfair of me, I’m sorry. My understanding of an internet conversation is the same as any other conversation. If it’s a conversation and not a lecture. It’s to arrive at understanding.

    But to do that you need to agree on facts. We can all talk around things for forever if facts are a tossup.

    Steve57 (be0b5f)


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