Patterico's Pontifications

12/30/2014

New York Times On The NYPD

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:14 am

[guest post by Dana]

The New York Times Editorial Board takes the NYPD to task citing officers’ acts of “passive-aggressive contempt”. The editorial condemns these acts, which include the two back-turning episodes, the heckling of the mayor while he spoke at an academy graduation Monday and the “Our backs have turned to you” banner that flew over the city:

Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect. They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramos’s widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family.

These are disgraceful acts, which will be compounded if anyone repeats the stunt at Officer Liu’s funeral on Sunday.

The New York Police Department is going through a terrible time, and the assassinations of those officers only underscore the dreadful dangers that rank-and-file cops face every day. And, in truth, there is some thanklessness to being a cop. Officers often feel beleaguered, jerked around by supervisors and politicians, obligated to follow rules and policies that can be misguided, held responsible for their mistakes in ways that the public is not, exposed to frequent ridicule and hostility from the people they are sworn to serve. It has always been that way with cops.

But none of those grievances can justify the snarling sense of victimhood that seems to be motivating the anti-de Blasio campaign — the belief that the department is never wrong, that it never needs redirection or reform, only reverence. This is the view peddled by union officials like Patrick Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association — that cops are an ethically impeccable force with their own priorities and codes of behavior, accountable only to themselves, and whose reflexive defiance in the face of valid criticism is somehow normal.

In the meantime, fallout from both the assassination of Liu and Ramos and what is regarded as the mayor’s betrayal can now be seen as NYPD traffic tickets and summonses for minor offenses have dropped off by a staggering 94 percent:

[O]verall arrests down 66 percent for the week starting Dec. 22 compared with the same period in 2013, stats show.

Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.
Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.

Officers explain:

“I’m not writing any summonses. Do you think I’m going to stand there so someone can shoot me or hit me in the head with an ax?” One cop said Sunday, referring to the Dec. 20 slayings and another recent attack on the NYPD.

“I’m concerned about my safety,” the cop added. “I want to go to home to my wife and kids.”

An NYPD supervisor noted, “My guys are writing almost no summonses, and probably only making arrests when they have to — like when a store catches a shoplifter.”

The NYT believes that healing can be found in the words spoken by de Blasio supporter Commissioner William Bratton at the funeral of Officer Ramos:

“The police, the people who are angry at the police, the people who support us but want us to be better, even a madman who assassinated two men because all he could see was two uniforms, even though they were so much more. We don’t see each other. If we can learn to see each other, to see that our cops are people like Officer Ramos and Officer Liu, to see that our communities are filled with people just like them, too. If we can learn to see each other, then when we see each other, we’ll heal. We’ll heal as a department. We’ll heal as a city. We’ll heal as a country.”

No mention from the NYT about the seeming open season on police officers across the country since the deaths of Liu and Ramos.

Mayor de Blasio is scheduled to meet with police union heads today in an effort to work on closing the rift.

–Dana

Update: Mayor de Blasio met with the heads of NYPD’s five unions today for two hours. According to PBA president Pat Lynch:

There were a number of discussions, especially about the safety issues members face. There was no resolve.

And our thought here today is that actions speak louder than words and time will tell.

Mayor de Blasio, who arrived late to the meeting, said in a statement:

Today’s meeting focused on building a productive dialogue and identifying ways to move forward together. The Mayor and Police Commissioner remain committed to keeping crime in New York City at historically low levels, supporting the brave men and women in uniform who protect us every day, and finding ways to bring police and the community closer together.

No specifics were given.

354 Responses to “New York Times On The NYPD”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  2. Hello, Dana. The NYT’s assessment sounds about right. Especially the part about the attitude that the police should only be revered.

    The cutting back on issuing tickets and summonses, that’s a strike. Pure and simple. Blue flu. Work slowdown. It’s purpose is economic. It’s to hurt the city’s revenues by the absence of those fines. The fear for safety is BS. Some cops need to be charged with dereliction of duty and fired, I’d say one in ten, to send them a message back.

    nk (dbc370)

  3. One thing: If these attacks on police, or talk of attacks, are taking place, across the country, then Bill de Blasio can’t be blamed, because it’s a national phenomena and PBA head Pat Lynch was wrong to accuse him.

    And the killer spent relatively little time the last couple of months in New York City.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  4. The person who maybe had the power to stop all of this, and didn’t was Barack Obama.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  5. Passive aggressive behavior is much better than aggressive aggressive behavior, which is probably what they would prefer.

    When holder, obama, sharpton, de blasio put targets on the on the the police who can blame them for wanting a low profile? Well, other than nk that is.

    Jim (2976d8)

  6. But he would have to use up some of his political capital – and he hasn’t got too much of it, anyway.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  7. The NYT doesn’t notice the biggest difference in the two sides to this falling out. Cops are being killed, while politicians are getting their feelings hurt.

    The cops are supposed to just take it when politicians and hustlers gin up anger and hatred for them to score political points or plain old money. After all, isn’t getting killed part of the job?

    Maybe the cops are snarling but the left is, as usual, sneering.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  8. I wouldn’t call it “passive aggressive contempt”. I’d call it actual contempt–and DeBlasio earned and deserves that contempt. As for “Blue flu” and a “strike”? I’ll out my lefty San Francisco sister’s standard line ‘Oh please!”

    Sammy says these attacks are happening across the country and therefore DeBlasio can’t be blamed. Well hell if Holder and Obama and Sharpton showed up, the NYPD would turn their backs on those clowns as well. “Gee Mom, I was only one of the five guys that robbed the bank together, so it’s not my fault!” That wouldn’t wash for a three year old.

    Skeptical Voter (12e67d)

  9. nk,

    I don’t disagree with most of your comment. Of course the question becomes, at what point do the police officers in their attempts to send a message and protect themselves put others at risk? The very ones that they are charged with protecting? (Actually, I think I read where delays in responding to emergency calls are already occurring)…

    Also, if the mayor acts aggressively and has officers penalized in some way for their selectivity in calls they respond to, he will be castigated. But if he does nothing, the dissension in the ranks is then tacitly accepted and that can’t be allowed.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  10. Sharpton is not putting targets on the police. (although I can’t say he had nothing to do with this book, and the movie script it is a novelization of, and the upcoming movie)

    http://www.amazon.com/Gentrifier-Clifford-Pulliam/dp/1499077890(spoiler alert: the police are killing people they think are criminals, and a gangster stops it)

    Al Sharpton doesn’t want to hurt the police. That’s not his goal.

    What he wants is exactly what’s happening right now.

    And he’s been open about it.

    http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/city-hall/2014/12/8559008/sharpton-donate-families-slain-officers

    Sharpton said that his disagreement over policing policies was in no way condoning violence, particularly against the police.

    “I disagree with policies. I disagree with Broken Windows,” he said, referring to a policy of strictly enforcing low-level quality-of-life crimes in order to prevent bigger comes.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  11. Oh, he has to do something, even if it is unpopular, otherwise he does not have a police force. But my assessment of him is even less kind than my assessment of the NYPD. He is, basically, an incompetent weasel who got the mayorship only because NYC is such a dysfunctional cesspool.

    nk (dbc370)

  12. *De Blasio* has to do something

    nk (dbc370)

  13. The part of the NYT editorial that I so dislike (and what I note in agreeing with *most* of nk’s comment) is the willful absence and ignorance of the full picture. Patricia at 7 clearly articulates it as far as I’m concerned:

    The NYT doesn’t notice the biggest difference in the two sides to this falling out. Cops are being killed, while politicians are getting their feelings hurt.

    The cops are supposed to just take it when politicians and hustlers gin up anger and hatred for them to score political points or plain old money. After all, isn’t getting killed part of the job?

    Dana (8e74ce)

  14. He is, basically, an incompetent weasel who got the mayorship only because NYC is such a dysfunctional cesspool.
    Basically, we could end the thread right there. And I say this a previous 10 year NYC resident who would not return, even for a visit. They elected Bloomie 3 times, each as a different party, ferchrisakes!

    Gazzer (c44509)

  15. Skeptical Voter (12e67d) — 12/30/2014 @ 10:37 am

    Sammy says these attacks are happening across the country and therefore DeBlasio can’t be blamed. Well hell if Holder and Obama and Sharpton showed up, the NYPD would turn their backs on those clowns as well. “Gee Mom, I was only one of the five guys that robbed the bank together, so it’s not my fault!” That wouldn’t wash for a three year old.

    Bill de Blasio didn’t start it, and de Blasio can’t stop it, and the killer hardly epent any time in New York, so it’s not the New York City demonstrations that did anything, but what’s been going on nationwide. (But that would mean taking on somebody they don’t want to take on: Obama.

    The point is, Barack Obama knows all these complaints against the police are a fraud,* and while never endorsing them, and he has bene careful never to endorse them, he refuses to rebut them, and refuses to rebuke Al Sharoton or any of that gang.)

    * at least the idea that nobody cares. There can always be real instances of doing something that at least went wrong, like shooting that man in the gun store in Cleveland.
    And then there’s maybe that book, I don’t know.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  16. I think Bloomberg all 3 times had the Republican nomination (plus maybe some other parties)

    He was not a registered Republican all 3 times. I think he later became an independent.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  17. Giuliani said that Al Sharpton visited the White House since Obama has been president 80 to 85 times.

    Somebody attempted to fact check it:

    (Spoiler alert: despite a valiant effort, there wasn’t really anything wrong with that claim)

    http://www.freenewspos.com/en/latest-news-article/c/2283345/giuliani-re/giuliani-8217-s-claim-the-white-house-invited-al-sharpton-up-to-85-times

    It turns out that there is a list of White House visitors that goes back only to Sept 2009, and Giuliani was probably basing his claim on that.

    So it could be more than what’s on the list, but Al Sharpton’s name is listed 82 times.

    But 10 of them are duplicates or cancelled appointments. (duplicates identified by two meetings having the same start time)

    So that’s 72.

    But about 50 of them were large events with many guests.

    To recap, of Sharpton’s 72 meetings:

    One-on-one meetings: 5 (7 percent)

    Meetings with staff members or senior advisers, with more than one guest: 20 (27 percent)

    Events with more than 90 people: 16 (22 percent)

    Miscellaneous meetings or events, ranging from 3 to 700 guests: 31 (43 percent)

    The author notes they included a tax bill signing event, Supreme Court reception, Superbowl party, Music of the Civil Rights concert, holiday reception and the official arrival ceremony for Mexican President Felipe Calderon.

    But of course I don’t think anyone would think Al Sharpton was his closest adviser. All of that is plenty indicating that he doesn’t want to be on the wrong side of Al Sharpton, or possibly he or his aides are trying to work with Al Sharpton.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  18. NYC politics is dysfunctional, and de Blasio owes the mayoralty a little bit to Al Sharptpon (who did not endorse the black candidate whom a lot of people did not know was black) and Bill Clinton – who is actually pretty close to Al Sharpton, although there probably weren’t anything like the number of meetings that he had with Al Sharpton that Obama had with him.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  19. NYC hunger for revenue led to the NYPD shouldering the blame for Eric Garner’s death and led to the assassination of two NYPD police officers…its fitting that the NYPD are taking a crack at the NYC police force revenue machine.

    Its the only message politicians like De Blasio can hear.

    Dejectedhead (ec3741)

  20. nk, while some of it may be economic and blue flu, there is a lot of truth to it, unless my son is lying to me

    What is the big beef everyone has? “How can asking an unarmed kid to get out of the road turn into a justifiable homicide?” “Why did someone die over selling loosies?”

    Obviously a significant part of the public and large parts of the press and many politicians do not accept the cops’ answers and just want kinder and gentler policing.
    The majority of cops with good reason are going to say “to h*ll with that” because there is no substantial evidence that shows that anything other than that was already done.
    So the police say, “You don’t want nuisance stops to turn into deaths? The only thing we can do to make sure that doesn’t happen is to make no nuisance stops.”

    I already said on another thread that this was going to happen, that many police were going to start sitting in their car (and looking through their rear view mirror) and wait for major 911’s to respond to and let the obvious violations of “little things” slide.
    The thing is, while some cops (especially “meter-maids”) hand out tickets to meet a quota, others simply observe that people who “drive like they don’t care about anything or anyone else” often don’t, and are more likely to include more advanced criminality on their resume.

    Would you want to risk getting shot over some chickensh*t when so many people apparently don’t give a d*mn?

    Now, it is certainly true many officers, at least in most places, will rise above such reasoning, it is not because they are doing what the expected merely human response would be, but because they are adhering to higher principles than the public and their elected official bosses.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  21. People get the government they deserve which gets them the laws they deserve. Remember, no lesser ranked official than the highest ranked uniformed officer ordered that sellers of loosies be targeted.As ever, follow the money.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  22. Come on Coppers, gun deaths in the line of duty up a measly 56% to mid-nineties levels or just 40% those of blacks offed in the same course of duty.

    Whiners, where’s your sense of sportsmanship?

    DNF (d3065a)

  23. I like and admire cops for the most part. But let’s be honest: the police unions are no different than teachers’ unions. They both exist to maximize the compensation for their members while at the same time minimizing their accountability to the public. And what’s going to happen if they continue to ignore parking tickets and traffic violations? NYC apparently collects about a half billion dollars in traffic tickets each year. That’s a lot of cops that could be laid off if revenues drop substantially. Of course, the unions could be counting on de Blasio not having the guts to risk public safety by laying off cops. This may be a very interesting story to keep track of, but I think the police unions may be in a stronger position than the mayor’s office.

    JVW (60ca93)

  24. Interestingly, about the meeting today:

    The meeting is distinct from labor discussions with the unions. Three of the five police unions have already reached tentative agreements with the administration; the city is approaching arbitration proceedings with the largest — and the most vocal since the shooting — the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association

    Dana (8e74ce)

  25. why on earth would anyone take anything printed in the NYT seriously, unless it was an ad or a sports score?

    redc1c4 (269d8e)

  26. 23. Just a hunch but despite a lower arrest total per officer in our near future the hue and cry will be for more flat feet.

    DNF (d3065a)

  27. I don’t understand why anyone would want to be a police officer in this day and age. What did the politicians think would happen when they directed the police to enforce the broken windows policy?
    I’m assuming that nothing will improve until crime starts to affect all of the liberals ensconced in their mansions and gated communities or security buildings.

    rochf (f3fbb0)

  28. Boy both Police and Military morale is just awesome these days. I feel really secure now. Good thing the NYTimes wrote an editorial about back turning – the effectiveness of soft power. I’m sure that will convince the NYPD to make nice and forget the murder of two of their brothers and the City’s sponsorship of the “peaceful protests”.

    dnice (ab98c0)

  29. Don’t worry, DeBlasio will throw a massive pay increase at the Union and it will behave once again.

    Sadly, neither side is really principled in any way I would consider labeling good.

    Cops, for that matter, need to either do their jobs or quit. What they are doing is 100% WRONG and they should have their contracts terminated.

    DeBlasio and Re Al and Obola are disgusting vile dogs but that is what the people elected. So Cops have one of two choices — keep working or quit. This work stoppage is UNACCEPTABLE.

    Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a)

  30. And the NYT? Really?

    Cops should issue a press release they are not responding to any crimes there are anywhere on the Upper East side.

    Let the criminals prey on that vile crap because that is what those folks are.

    They deserve what they git.

    Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a)

  31. 8. I wouldn’t call it “passive aggressive contempt”. I’d call it actual contempt…

    Skeptical Voter (12e67d) — 12/30/2014 @ 10:37 am

    Nobody who understands the meaning of the term “passive-aggressive” would apply it to the police actions. They’d apply it to De Blasio’s. When he showed up late for Ramos’ wake, that was classic passive-aggressive behavior. (Just like Obama is always late for his pressers, and pretends to just be casually scratching his head and not flipping everyone the bird with his middle finger, despite only using that gesture with people he doesn’t like.)

    There’s always an element of plausible deniability to passive-aggressive behavior. Either the person isn’t being honest with themselves, or the don’t have the guts to take responsibility for their behavior.

    The police showed their open contempt for De Blasio. You couldn’t mistake their hostility for anything else. That was honest.

    De Blasio on the other hand really does hate the cops. He just doesn’t have the stones to admit it.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  32. Apologize, say you were wrong, make amends, change your ways for the future.

    De Blasio might be able to do one and two, but he can’t do three and four.

    I doubt he has money to pay to the police to make amends, and he is who he is and can’t change.

    luagha (e5bf64)

  33. one policeman states:“I’m not writing any summonses. Do you think I’m going to stand there so someone can shoot me or hit me in the head with an ax?” One cop said Sunday, referring to the Dec. 20 slayings and another recent attack on the NYPD.”

    But the staggering drops in the stats show that the police must be doing very little in every district… even low crime areas, since I am assuming people in low crime areas commit parking and traffic violations too:

    “Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.
    Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.
    Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.”
    So the numbers seem to say that either 90% of NYC is a deathtrap for cops, or the cops are dropping the revenue hammer (traffic and parking) on the city

    I do think the police brass need to review their procedures on sending squads of officers to corral people selling “loosies” and also review department protocols on escalation of force.
    The cops say they went by the book on escalation of force in Eric Garners case and besides he died due to preexisting health conditions.
    Maybe the book needs to let officers know that any stop for a crime like selling “loosies” where force is escalated to a point where the citizen winds up dead, is not OK and to apply tools and strategies found in the book to de-escalate the situation instead.

    The cops seem perfectly able to exercise discernment and restraint on not sweating the small stuff now when their own safety is at risk, but they also need to safeguard the health and safety of citizens being contacted for the pettiest of the petty crimes.
    On a populist level, the public wants their health and safety at the hands of the police to be equal to the way the police treat themselves, or at least not be sacrificed to a “greater good” called law and order over what on the surface looks like a cigarette crime.

    It is also true that in Garners case “this is not worth dying over” involved the two parties and each made their choices not knowing that the Grim Reaper was already standing with one hand on Garner’s heart.

    steveg (794291)

  34. Thanks for the compliment, Dana.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  35. I don’t think police unions and pay are the biggest issues.
    The police are really upset, they try to do their job and bad things happen some not at all their fault and some mistakes but not evidence on “open season on black men” and that meme is not challenged by Obama, Holder, and DeBlasio. Two NYPD killed with the gunman directly linking the events and multiple other examples of “open season on pigs” across the nation.
    Money is not the issue, unless you are talking about enough to retire after a year and go live in Montana or Wyoming or Texas.

    Actions speak louder than words. DeBlasio has acted, his words will mean little, and the NYT can do all of the moralizing they want.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  36. steveg-
    They would argue that the point is not just whether they choose to do their jobs or not, but that under current conditions they CAN’T do their jobs.

    In Garner’s case the escalation of force had very little to do with his death. The escalation of force in that case was standard, the only mistake was not sitting him up and not realizing he had a medical emergency that was not directly caused by their actions.

    The fact that you and others still want some kind of magical way for every cop to diffuse every situation is simply an untenable position, and if you want the police to avoid such conflicts at all cost, the only way is to not give the opportunity. Had Garner not died of an acute asthma exacerbation no one would have heard about this case. But this has already been discussed ad nauseum, and I’m going to assume you’ve read previous comments that highlight why the level of force was appropriate. If you haven’t, at your request I would offer them again if requested.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  37. Maybe the book needs to let officers know that any stop for a crime like selling “loosies” where force is escalated to a point where the citizen winds up dead, is not OK and to apply tools and strategies found in the book to de-escalate the situation instead.

    OK, but to play Devil’s Advocate, doesn’t this just encourage people who are apprehended while committing “minor” crimes to become belligerent and uncooperative, knowing that the cops will ultimately decide that it isn’t worth the risk to their careers to escalate the situation? I mean if I am drinking a beer on the public sidewalk and a cop comes up to me and says, “Hey, you can’t do that and I am going to write up a citation. Now show me some ID, sir.” My best response would be to fly off the handle and refuse to cooperate and just assume that the cop is going to think to himself that it’s not worth having another Eric Gardner scene and let me go on my merry way. Pretty soon we are back to the pre-broken windows day when “minor crime” was considered to be something that wasn’t worth worrying about, which just made major crime in certain neighborhoods all the more likely.

    JVW (60ca93)

  38. “Maybe the book needs to let officers know that any stop for a crime like selling “loosies” where force is escalated to a point where the citizen winds up dead, is not OK and to apply tools and strategies found in the book to de-escalate the situation instead.

    The cops seem perfectly able to exercise discernment and restraint on not sweating the small stuff now when their own safety is at risk.”

    – steveg

    I think those are good points.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  39. As far as what section of NYC is involved, the assassin came from out of state to kill his victims, I don’t think he picked an area based on the typical crime rates, he likely based it on whatever part of the city he was familiar with.

    Besides, go ahead and fire all of the cops you want. How many good candidates are there just “dying” to get in??

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  40. JVW,

    Wouldn’t that argument apply equally for denying prosecutorial discretion at the level of Assistant District Attorneys? That is, does the existence of prosecutorial discretion (as a general phenomenon) encourage people to commit minor crimes in the first instance?

    Also, it doesn’t seem to me that a policy like the one steveg is talking about prevents sanction. As your own comment indicates, the police could give Hypothetical JVW a citation, and be on their way. No cooperation necessary, so no value in or incentive to fly off the handle.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  41. MD in Philly, I see this nonesense like “open season on black men” the same as “What do we want? Dead Cops! When do we want them? Now!” mentality. It’s a mentality and rhetoric encouraged, supported and designed by leftist thugs to cause civil unrest. And when all the liberal assholes fall in line with it and start promoting it dead cops and I imagine dead civilians too. 73% of the voters in NYC voted DeBlasio in. If the people of that city are so deranged as to vote in an American commie who had one of his first priorities to eliminate carraige rides in Central Park they deserve the idiot. NYC will return to the cesspool it was under Dinkins within three years.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  42. Leviticus, did you catch this previous comment:
    http://patterico.com/2014/12/27/good-riddance-2014/#comment-1724120

    Perhaps the police officer should have made a show of solidarity and raised his hands and say, “Don’t shoot”.
    Perhaps he didn’t use his kinder/gentler approach soon enough to indicate just what kind of police officer he was.
    I guess if you want eye for an eye and you include Trayvon Martin, then 3 police needed to die and he should have let them shoot him.

    As I already said, I think they are points that do not address the issues, actually.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  43. Hoagie,
    Indeed, some of the people pushing the protests are from the Communist Revolutionary Party. they would like nothing more than for total anarchy to break out to allow a leftist dictator to take over.

    the police could give Hypothetical JVW a citation, and be on their way. No cooperation necessary, so no value in or incentive to fly off the handle.
    What in the world do you mean “no cooperation necessary”?
    The person needs to agree to show ID or the citation will be issued to John Doe or Jane Smith,
    and then the person has to agree to take it in their hand
    and then they need to do something about the citation once they get it

    3 ways (at least) where cooperation is needed for the officer not to be wasting everybody’s time.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  44. “The person needs to agree to show ID or the citation will be issued to John Doe or Jane Smith.”

    – MD in Philly

    That’s a fair point. Did Garner refuse to show his ID?

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  45. Given his attitude, I doubt he would have accepted taking the ticket, forcing the officer to try to forcibly stick it into a pocket, provoking an incident, or letting it fall to the ground.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  46. Here’s the comment MD in Philly is linking to on the other thread, from elissa:

    “Last week on a particular now dead thread there was quite a heated discussion among commenters about getting cops to “talk” to suspects–reason with them even without knowing if they’re armed or dangerous or crazy– and trying to find ways to “incentivize” cops to be just over all nicer and more trusting and less gun-happy and less brutal during encounters. Weeeel- This is for MDinPhilly and Leviticus and DRJ and Dana among others.

    Less than a week after two New York City policemen were executed as they sat in their patrol car by a black man seeking revenge for the recent deaths of Black criminals who were resisting arrest, a Durham, North Carolina policeman is lucky to be alive after six shots were fired at him on Christmas night. The officer was shot as he got out of his patrol car to speak to two black men approaching his car from the rear.
    Officer J.T. West was said by police to be working on a report in his patrol car around 10 p.m. when he saw two Black men walking up behind him from an abandoned apartment building he was patrolling. As he got out to speak to the men one of them pulled out a gun from his waistband and opened fire on the officer. All six shots fired by the gunman missed the officer with one hitting the driver’s side door of the patrol car.

    No words were exchanged with any of the three men.

    The officer squeezed off two shots at the men while taking cover. The gunman and his accomplice ran off. It is not known if either was wounded.”

    I’m not trying to be a jerk, but I don’t understand what point is being made here. Is the point that being a police officer can be deadly? I understand that. Is this an argument that police should NOT “talk” to suspects, or to reason with them? I doubt it. Is this an argument that we shouldn’t try to “incentivize” cops to be just over all nicer and trusting and less gun-happy and less brutal during encounters?

    Maybe, to that last one, but that is still the argument that I’ve been trying to make, and the argument that I’ll continue to make here (since people are interested!). I know that elissa took issue with my language about “incentivizing” certain behavior in police instead of viewing them as trained professionals called upon to exercise split-second discretion in dangerous situations, but I don’t think the two things are even close to mutually exclusive and I really believe in the power of incentives (and disincentives) to shape conduct. Patterico has been excited about Sowell’s incentive-based, “constrained method” theories. You all scored pretty highly on that scale, right? I think this is probably an interesting topic on which to either apply those theories or show some major flaws in the theory (or the diagnostic).

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  47. And if Garner did take the ticket, you would need to either accept him not paying it or send someone after him provoking an incident then.

    And if you really want to avoid a confrontation, how do you intend to get the person to stop the illegal activity, ask them nicely?

    O: Here’s your ticket for selling loosies.
    G: (lets ticket drop to ground, gives 5 loosies to a customer and takes a five dollar bill)
    O: I told you to stop.
    G: What are you going to do? Give me another ticket? Ask pretty please? Yell at me like Yosemite Sam and stomp your feet?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  48. Also, since Simon thinks that experience with or in policing is a prerequisite to complaining about police conduct, I submit that he is no longer allowed to complain about President Obama or any of his policies. Get some Presiding under your belt, first – amirite?

    After all, I have always found that people who seem to know all about what something is like without having done it (i) have a political axe to grind, and (ii) have lived quite privileged lives.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  49. The point is that in a setting where officials like Obama have tacitly agreed that the police are evil and the public has reason to be mad, the psychological restraint against such activity has been lowered, and in the end all you really have to keep order after all is the willingness of people to not do the evil they would otherwise do.

    If there was a way to incentivize good behavior that prevented the need for force ever to be used in the universe we live in, either God would have thought of it first or He is evil for withholding it.

    I don’t care how much you want to incentivize whatever you want by whoever you want, unless one realizes that Brown earned his fate I don’t know what the point of discussion is.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  50. The deBlasio regime has ushered in a new era of low-crime in NYC, if the numbers of arrests, summonses, and traffic tickets are any indication.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    I guess the City will now crack down even harder on the sale of “loosies”, because of taxes.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  51. Leviticus, sometimes people display an ability to take into consideration an issue from an opposing point of view. I think Simon can do that, very often I do not see it in you. You seem to have very little ability to understand the amount of meanness people can show just because.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  52. MD

    First I’d like to say I do not think Brown’s case was a nuisance stop gone awry because Brown was a very large, bad young man with a little lying friend… a little lying friend that for all Off. Wilson knew had a weapon.

    Second, in Garners case it seems the cops were specifically sent to do nuisance patrol and without being given the tools, strategies to defuse the situation with Garner. I did not see the whole contact obviously and don’t know the back story, but that is what it looks like.

    Also the public is generally down on what looks like overly aggressive force and what looks like excessive force.
    Here locally a parolee ran from the police, they caught up with the tall, strong parolee who in his previous crime had been shot in the side of the neck out in Las Vegas and now was tackled 2 doors down from his moms house which is in a very quiet (quiet when he is in prison anyway) quiet neighborhood 4 blocks from the beach. The two cops who caught him were undersized anyway, but they proceeded to hit him over 100 times with hand tools, and maybe they tased him… I don’t like the parolee and about 2 mos. before that had had a scrap with him… so as far as I was concerned they coulda beat him another 100 or two times, but in the end he won a $1M judgement!! (and a bus trip back to prison)
    Solid citizens, some of whom despised the parolee, who witnessed the beat down were seriously disturbed at the scope of the beating.
    In another case a career drunk driver won a small award and had charges dropped because eye witnesses in the parking lot… some just a car width away were shocked at the swift choice of violence as remedy, and by both the power and duration of the beating. These eyewitnesses again were solid citizens patronizing a grocery store in a middle class to upper class neighborhood.

    My point is that I don’t think people want nusiance arrests to default to violence… they don’t even like it when parolees get more than a bit of baton, or when a sober looking drunk driver gets bounced around on the pavement.
    The public does want to be kept safe, and can be convinced (if the judge allows all the evidence) that a career drunk driver who did not immediately comply, or a fleeing felon, sometimes need to be subdued forcefully.
    But they don’t want cops hurt or bootleg cigarette dealers hurt. Support for police erodes when they apply violent force to very petty criminals… in fact I’ll bet that on a scale of 1-100 with 1 being highest, people in NYC see single bootleg cigarette dealing as around #150.

    I really don’t know how to have cops tread light on nusiance crime and still be effective, but that is part of what we the public think we are paying for. We don’t want the hammer on these types of crimes. We want the velvet glove until ID says it is a career violent criminal who is selling the singles anyway

    steveg (794291)

  53. @33, Cops don’t always have discretion about “not sweating the small stuff,” if they want to keep their jobs. NYPD Patrol Officer Adrian Schoolcraft was so concerned about the NYPD’s policy of requiring officers to meet quotas for the “small stuff,” while fudging the statistics to make it appear the big stuff was on the decline (including intimidating witnesses and crime victims into just going away) that he began to record police roll calls and other station house conversations. Then he went to the chain of command/Internal Affairs with his evidence.

    http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/2774108-Cop-who-made-tapes-accuses-NYPD-of-false-arrest/

    …Schoolcraft’s account of the messy episode that unfolded next bumps against the NYPD’s carefully crafted image as a fine-tuned crime fighting machine.

    His description of being taken in handcuffs to a psychiatric ward that night suggests the nation’s largest police force could have a vindictive underbelly. He claims that cops risk retribution when they try, as he did, to blow the whistle on supervisors’ faking of crime statistics to make the stats look better….

    Then he went to the press.

    http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-15/news/adrian-school-craft-nypd-tapes-whistleblower/

    NYPD Tapes 4: The WhistleBlower, Adrian Schoolcraft

    He wanted his bosses to know about NYPD misconduct. So they put him in a mental ward

    …In October 2006, an ambitious captain named Steven Mauriello arrived at the precinct. Mauriello, later the precinct commander, was focused on making cops hit their productivity numbers, a philosophy that clashed with Schoolcraft’s views.

    “Be a cop, do your job,” Mauriello is heard saying on a tape from January 27, 2009. “You got a problem with how I roll? My style? Too f***ing bad.”

    Schoolcraft believed more in a “community” model of policing: “You pull someone over for a seat-belt violation, they have their ID, all their papers, you don’t need to give them a ticket,” he says. “Just ‘warn and admonish.’ You don’t need to hammer the regular people.”

    He came to believe that the NYPD’s obsession with statistics was driving a wedge between police officers and the community: “Why not look at the quality of the service we’re providing?” he asks.

    …On January 13, 2009, Schoolcraft met with Lieutenant Rafael Mascol, who told him to pick up his activity, or his shift would be changed.

    On January 29, he received a poor work evaluation, which he appealed.

    The following day, a flier appeared on his locker, which read, “If you don’t like your job, maybe you should get another job.”

    Schoolcraft decided not to complain: “I could have called Internal Affairs and made a big stink, but I didn’t want to take it outside the precinct,” he says.

    On February 20, Schoolcraft met with Mascol again, and secretly taped the conversation. On the recording, Mascol makes a series of unguarded remarks about how the NYPD rates officers.

    On a ranking system of 1 to 5, Mascol says that no one ever gets a 5, or even a 4.5: “Most police officers are just basically meeting standards,” he says. “They are basically doing what they’re told to do. Very few police officers are actually going above and beyond the recommended minimum of accomplishment, you know?’

    Mascol describes the NYPD evaluation system as a popularity contest. “Unfortunately, if we like you, you get a certain thing,” he says. “If we don’t like you, you get a certain thing, as opposed to what the performance standards of the—uh, you know—what the department requires. I have no time to change the entire department mind, unfortunately.”

    Mascol told Schoolcraft to raise his numbers. But Schoolcraft was convinced that precinct supervisors wanted him out. He had already started documenting what he saw as retaliation in his activity book.

    I occupy a middle ground on the issue. I don’t think the cops were blameless in Garner’s death. But I also don’t think there was any way a Grand Jury could have hung the blame on just one of the half dozen or so cops involved. It was a group effort, and if anyone was responsible it would have been the on-scene supervisor. Who, inconveniently, was a black female.

    Frankly, the NYPD is one of the reasons I wouldn’t want to live in NYC. They don’t exercise discretion, it is true, in what they overlook and what they don’t unless (as is now the case) they’re rebelling against the city administration. They grumble about not having a choice, but their current rebellion shows clearly they do. Normally they don’t have a problem with it. In fact, normally they seem enthusiastic about it. I don’t see any way to spin the Garner case as racially motivated. But I do think it shows a certain indifference to the lives and safety of those they’re enforcing the law against. It’s amazing, isn’t it, how the need to meet quotas goes out the window when its their own lives and safety they’re concerned about.

    Still, those quotas are stupid and it isn’t the cops who came up with them. They’re the product of the kind of warped politics that leads to De Blasio being mayor. Of course a socialist like him isn’t going to let someone like Garner “rob” the city of tax revenue. And of course he’s going to pressure the cops to make that a priority.

    If only De Blasio wasn’t so conflicted about backing up the normally enthusiastic enforcers of his warped priorities, all would be sweetness and light in NYC as far as the cops are concerned.

    Which is, again, why I wouldn’t live there.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  54. I scored a 50 on a cursory examination of the test, realizing every question had an “It depends” for me, so adding 0 and 100 and dividing by 2 gives a 50, though I’m not sure what that meant.

    Our host said to take the test without thinking too deeply about it.
    That’s like asking Sammy to keep to the main point.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  55. If the issue is whether police sometimes are over aggressive and need to be disciplined I agree with that.
    If the issue is whether the NYPD and EMT’s made an error Garner’s case and need some discipline and the city pay a settlement, I agree with that.

    But those have not been the questions before the public. The charge before the public, NOT contradicted by Obama or DeBlasio, was that there was a racist war by police across the nation and that “being a black man” was a reason to fear assassination by police, and brown and garner were both examples of uncalled for police brutality fueled by racism.

    Even if one thinks there was an overuse of force with Garner, the officers involved should indicate there was no significant racial component to it.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  56. the police could give Hypothetical JVW a citation, and be on their way. No cooperation necessary, so no value in or incentive to fly off the handle.

    While obviously there has to be some level of cooperation, why shouldn’t cooperation be considered an expectation and part of the contract we have with law enforcement? To avoid escalation of a situation by negating the need for cooperation opens up a whole other door of problems. What happens when criminals – or law breakers (large or small) – get to pick and choose what interaction with the police demands cooperation? What if officers, in their discretion, decide that a suspect needs to cooperate and suspect doesn’t feel the same? (Oh. We’ve already seen what happens). How does this premise not give a law breaker the upper hand? Is that what we want?

    Dana (8e74ce)

  57. “The point is that in a setting where officials like Obama have tacitly agreed that the police are evil and the public has reason to be mad”

    MD in Philly – Tacit is the wrong word. Obama and Holder explicitly believe our justice system is racially biased against people of color. Some of the only bills Obama actually sponsored in the Illinois legislature related reforming what he viewed as bias in policing, wildly unpopular population quota-based policing based on race and other progressive vodoo crap Bill Ayers helped him to develop.

    Based on Obama’s beliefs, police nationwide need to undergo training in subconscious racism detection and nonviolent conflict resolution based upon a curriculum developed by former terrorist Ayers.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  58. Google ” NYPD throws dancing man to the ground”. A clear and unmistakable sign that the NYPD has no regard for the law or for the average citizen, regardless of color.

    CallousD (cdc72e)

  59. The obvious yet not so obvious issue with garner is that there were (I believe) 4 officers on patrol and 2 supervisors, including a sergeant, on the scene. For there to be that many police for such a small crime I assume that the episode had been going on for awhile and that back-up was called because of his size.

    The police had 3 options:
    1) give up and leave
    2) tell him that on the count of 3 they would get mean if he didn’t cooperate
    3) decide it had been enough, put the handcuffs on, and when he resisted the handcuffing (which he did) to immediately take him down

    You need to realize that any amount of half-hearted force, such as giving him an opportunity to brace himself, may likely lead to the need to use even greater force and the injury of the suspect or officers or both.

    As I said, I do not claim that all police action is justified, but probably every arrest made of an uncooperative suspect will appear to be too much force for the average person who can’t remember the last time theyu had a scuffle.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  60. daley, I agree with your point. I was limiting my comments based on their explicit statements regarding these incidents. I don’t think they came out and directly said, “Yes, the murderous cops got away with it again”.
    Very, very, faint praise.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  61. Does anybody remember what position the New York Times took concerning the large NYPD protests over Mayor Dinkins criminal coddling in 1992?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  62. “Google ” NYPD throws dancing man to the ground”. A clear and unmistakable sign that the NYPD has no regard for the law or for the average citizen, regardless of color.”

    CallousD – Sure, every single one of the NYPD based on that incident.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. Those w*ankers in London renamed The Metropolitan Police Force to Metropolitan Police Service because they thought it was too aggressive. They also cook the crime stat books monstrously to make it look like crime is down. For example, if a burglar raids 25 units in an apartment complex, they put that down as one crime.
    Police Chiefs regularly tell cops not t0 report crimes in the final quarter because it adversely affects their bonuses.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  64. “Either one realizes that Brown earned his fate I don’t know what the point of discussion is.”

    – MD in Philly

    I do believe that Brown earned his fate. But I believe that by the same token, there is little point discussing this issue with someone who doesn’t realize that Eric Garner and Tamir Rice did not earn their respective fates.

    Leviticus (c1d138)

  65. Eric Garner, as best I can remember, was known to the officers who attempted to apprehend him.
    They knew he was “on bail” from a previous arrest.
    It would make no sense to give him another ticket.
    Plus, the usual response to failure to provide an ID is a trip to booking, and let those guys sort out your identity.

    As for Hiz Honor:
    He campaigned against Stop & Frisk (Yes, I know “question” is also part of the equation), and said he was going to stop it. That right there put him on the opposite side of the table from the cops who had found S&F to be a valuable tool in holding down ‘street crime’ and the numbers of meaningless shootings that were de-rigueur in NYC prior to institution of “Broken Windows” and “Stop & Frisk”.
    So, right off the bat he had a steep hill to climb at 1PP. He attempted to ease that climb by bringing Bratten back, but the rank & file was wary. The proper procedure today would be to task The Commish with getting his troops back in line, and canning him if he failed to do so.
    But, who would be the new Commish?
    What idiot would take the job when a state of open rebellion exists in every precinct-house in the City?
    Plus, you can’t fire the entire PD – who would replace them?
    DeBlasio is between a rock and a hard place that he himself created by his runaway mouth over a campaign and his initial tenure at City Hall – remember, Hiz Honor told The Commish to crack down on tax-scofflaws such as Eric Garner because it was costing The City too much lost revenue.
    The question as someone said above, is can he change his behavior enough to get the beat-cops back – if not on his side, at least not in open opposition to him and his Leftism?
    Because, it is that Leftism that is the basis for the disagreement.
    I for one am not optimistic in his ability to do so.
    If Hiz Honor can’t discard some of his beliefs that are causing this grief, the City is going to devolve into anarchy. A situation that the thugs and anarcho-libertarians will rejoice in – but very few of those who believed in deBlasio will find pleasant.
    New York is in for some Interesting Times.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  66. I remember the epic violence perpetrated against the mostly peaceful public poopers, masturbators, and rape tent occupiers of the We Are The Unemployed Victim Movement With Nothing Better To Do.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  67. I see that I missed your comment at 55, which I think is a reasonable one.

    Leviticus (c1d138)

  68. If Obama et al believe that the police are on a pogrom against Black Men – regardless of their criminality – and that society must be overturned once again to attain Social Justice (how’s that BarryCare working out for you in the SJ area?), then we have two ends of a dilemma:
    Either we have an America without police, or an America without Black Men, or both.
    Somewhere between those two extremes there has to be a solution, or this experiment is over.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  69. The government and the law clearly use policies to incentivize individual behavior. For example, giving people tax credits for specific behavior acts as an incentive.

    But it seems to me that professional behavior (e.g., the police, lawyers, nurses, accountants, etc.) should be governed by professional standards. There may be some variance between jurisdictions because not every state/town is the same, but isn’t that how to get the best, most predictable, and most accountable results?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  70. Agreed, DRJ, but the question is always gonna be “what incentives/disincentives are built into professional standards?” If, for instance, a set of professional standards contains aspirational goals without associated penalties, the incentive to attain those aspirational goals might not be particularly high. If, on the other hand, a set of professional standards states that no one without a particular credential may be part of the profession, the incentive to attain that credential might be very high.

    Perhaps you are drawing a distinction between incentives and professional standards that I am overlooking.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  71. One of the biggest problems with all popo forces is the lack of accountability. They police them selves and because of the unions, are rarely held responsible for their actions. And I mean financially as well. They come shoot your dog and the city, which really is us the taxpayers, get to bail them out.
    Also, NYPD was in an uproar, I think, because someone proposed a civilian review board which the unions and rank and file are outraged about. But that’s what is needed.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  72. I saw this colum in the New York Post today. Here is a link through another source: Thomas Sowell: Are Facts Obsolete to the Liberal Media?

    ncidentally, did you know that, during this same period when riots, looting and arson have been raging, a black policeman in Alabama shot and killed an unarmed white teenager — and was cleared by a grand jury? Probably not, if you depend on the mainstream media for your news.

    This is the first I heard about that.

    Some caveats: Sowell is not all that familiar with the details, although he has the famous lies about Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown (Ferguson) down right.

    On the white teenager, it turns out, Sowell is wrong about the timing. It was reported recently.

    http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/11/29/white-teen-killed-black-police-officer-alabama-mirrors-ferguson

    But the incident – and even the grand jury decision – happened long before. (Oct 6, 2012 and the grand jury decision probably early in 2013)

    Sowell also misses the asthma of Eric Garner, which I think is very important, possibly because the medical examiner barely mentioned it but what killed him had to be asthma, not some unrelated heart attack.

    And I thought everybody understood that the police had chased Rodney King for miles and the videotape shows only the conclusion of the arrest. The point is, the beating happened after he was subdued. Everybody understood the cops were probably angry. But they are not supposed to take it personally and get angry, or administer their own punishments. But he’s right, it might have gotten lost that Rodney King had passengers who weren’t beaten, or even arrested, I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  73. Police should do their duty. This includes full and thorough investigation of all official corruption.

    ras (2067f2)

  74. 73- In NYC, and DC, that would be a full-time job requiring a second police force.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  75. The person who maybe had the power to stop all of this, and didn’t was Barack Obama.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2) — 12/30/2014 @ 10:32 am

    I never thought I’d be writing that Sammy is spot on, while Nk is off-base with his #2 post, but here I am…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  76. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/30/2014 @ 1:52 pm

    Even if one thinks there was an overuse of force with Garner, the officers involved should indicate there was no significant racial component to it.

    Garner’s widow said that, on Meet the Press.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-december-7-2014-n263416

    ESAW SNIPES-GARNER:

    I feel that he was murdered unjustly. I don’t even feel like it’s a black and white thing, honestly, you know, in my opinion. I really don’t feel like it’s a black and white thing. I feel like it’s just something that he continued to do and the police knew. You know, they knew. It wasn’t like it was a shock. They knew. You know? They knew him by name.

    They harassed us. They said things to us. We would go shopping. You know? They, “Hi Cigarette Man. Hey Cigarette Man Wife.” You know? Stuff like that.

    And I would just say, “Eric, just keep walking. Don’t say anything. Don’t respond. You know? Don’t give them a reason to do anything to you.”

    And he just felt like, “But baby, they keep harassing me.” And I said, “Just ignore them, Eric.” And he said, “But how much can I ignore them?” And I would say, “Just stay away from the block. You know? Just find something else to do.”

    And he’s like, “What else can I do? I keep getting sick.” He tried working with the Parks Department. But he had asthma. You know? He had issues. You know? Heavy guy.

    And he was very lazy. You know? He didn’t like to do anything. He wasn’t used to it, so,

    CHUCK TODD:

    You say he was murdered.

    ESAW SNIPES-GARNER:

    Yeah. I feel like that. I feel like he was murdered.

    (But Sharpton maybe has her under control so we are not hearing much about this had nothing much to do with race.)

    The problem is, she thinks it was murder. Now the thing is, this wasn’t murder. He died from his asthma and stress. And the police there, and the EMS they called, really didn’t understand what was happening. But who’s telling her that?

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  77. The NYT and several other major newspapers across the country also bear responsibility for not addressing the lack of leadership shown by the Obama administration and the DOJ, as well as they’re not highlighting/identifying the sort of people and radical organizations that are behind most of these riots and “demonstrations”.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  78. As your own comment indicates, the police could give Hypothetical JVW a citation, and be on their way. No cooperation necessary, so no value in or incentive to fly off the handle.

    Yeah, but the police can only give me an effective citation if they know who I am. If I refuse to give them my ID and tell them my name is “Pudding Tane” and my address is “123 Main Street” then all they can really do is write that up knowing that it’s a lie and that I will never have to pay my fine. NYC already dealt with this issue a few years back when it was decided that they needed to crack-down on unlicensed and untagged dogs in the city, but that the police could not ask the dog owners for their IDs when they were stopped. Naturally, after word got out, everyone the cops stopped just gave them a phony name and address and ignored the $50 fine. Why couldn’t future Eric Garners just adopt the same tactic? My point being that people who are scofflaws will soon figure out all of the loopholes that allow them to get away with it.

    JVW (60ca93)

  79. And where is the NYT when the subject of ridiculous laws enacted by an out-of-control, over-reaching state is mentioned as a contributor to this nonsense? Nowhere to be found, because they’ve thrown in with those who want to overtax and manipulate American citizens

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  80. “Naturally, after word got out, everyone the cops stopped just gave them a phony name and address and ignored the $50 fine. Why couldn’t future Eric Garners just adopt the same tactic? My point being that people who are scofflaws will soon figure out all of the loopholes that allow them to get away with it.”

    – JVW

    Yeah, you and MD are correct on this point. I spoke too hastily.

    I think your argument really does cast the two sides of the debate in sharper contrast: I think both sides are looking at your hypothetical and conducting cost-benefit analyses, and reaching opposite conclusions.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  81. Leviticus– how do you think the Tamir Rice situation should have been handled? In other words had you been the responding officer to the scene where a young man (not a little child) was waving a real looking gun in that apparently crowded and known crime-ridden park (as the situation was set up and linked by Dana on the other thread) what do you believe you would have done? Not what would you have done now that we all have the blessed power of hindsight. This is not meant as a “got-cha” question. But I think it’s a fair question though, and one that each of us who commented there and again here should try to answer for ourselves honestly.

    elissa (8fed26)

  82. Earthquake (minor) in SE LACo.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  83. The person who maybe had the power to stop all of this, and didn’t was Barack Obama.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2) — 12/30/2014 @ 10:32 am

    I never thought I’d be writing that Sammy is spot on, while Nk is off-base with his #2 post, but here I am…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/30/2014 @ 3:09 pm

    While that may be true, it is de Blasio who is the mayor and he has to do something to get this under control. What?

    Dana (8e74ce)

  84. The thing wrong with nk@2 is that I think this is not “blue flu” but the orders to police to be very careful came from police headquarters. I read something like that when it started. But I can’t find it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  85. I would add to my comment at 56 that the vast majority of people who are not breaking the law will have no problem with compliance. It’s those who *are* breaking the law (no matter how big of small) that will be resist. Why on earth give that particular group any power in the situation? De-escalating an intense situation and sill being the one in control are not mutually exclusive.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  86. O/T, but maybe not.
    Fighting back against government over-reach:
    It was announced that enough signatures have been gathered to put a referendum on the ballot in CA regarding the ban on ‘single use’ plastic bags in stores.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  87. “Leviticus– how do you think the Tamir Rice situation should have been handled?”

    – elissa

    The car should have been stopped much further away, and the boy should have been told to (and given a chance to) put his gun down.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  88. “De-escalating an intense situation and sill being the one in control are not mutually exclusive.”

    – Dana

    Exactly. It’s not like Eric Garner was going to outrun anybody.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  89. But that brings up the actions of the cops in that Walmart who gunned down a guy holding a paintball gun that he’d picked up off the shelf at that Walmart.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  90. I agree BTW with those who point out that the police union thing complicates matters considerably. Unions always complicate both change and discipline. I disagree though that it is “just like the teachers’ union”. Individual teachers often do not know a great deal about the skills, effectiveness and personal issues of other teachers within their districts or within their school. Most experienced cops have a very good handle on who the dirty cops are, or who the lazy cops are, or who the cops with drinking problems are, and who they would not want or trust as a partner. Large city police forces I believe have much better success in drumming out the bad apples from the inside (despite the union) than teachers do.

    elissa (8fed26)

  91. Teachers and Cops operate from different incentives in “Policing” their own:
    Damn few teachers face a situation that might be created by one of their co-workers that could result in their individual demise.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  92. U – Da – Man, Sammy

    mg (31009b)

  93. Leviticus,

    Garner certainly may have not outrun anyone, but you also neglect to acknowledge that his choice of non-compliance ratcheted up the confrontation with officer (Panatelo?). The choice to not escalate a situation started with him. As I said, those who are not breaking the law will typically not have an issue with compliance. Rather those who are breaking the law or have something to worry about, will choice non-compliance and by default, escalate the situation.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  94. If I recall correctly, the police officer reached out to grab Garner’s hands – and Garner pulled them away. Just as a simple factual matter, I really don’t see how that’s Garner choosing to escalate the confrontation, and not the police officer.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  95. While that may be true, it is de Blasio who is the mayor and he has to do something to get this under control. What?

    Dana (8e74ce) — 12/30/2014 @ 3:27 pm

    I expect only what should be an expected action or utterance from a stone Marxist sh*theel, Dana. Exactly nuthin’. The guy is a total waste of space and the people of NYC got what they elected.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  96. Individual teachers often do not know a great deal about the skills, effectiveness and personal issues of other teachers within their districts or within their school. Most experienced cops have a very good handle on who the dirty cops are, or who the lazy cops are, or who the cops with drinking problems are, and who they would not want or trust as a partner.

    I’m not sure I agree with you, elissa. In my experience, all of my good teachers knew exactly who the deadweight was both within my school (from first-hand experience) and largely within my district (mostly by reputation; teachers can be big-time gossips). But there is unfortunately a “don’t rock the boat mentality” within teaching in much the same way that there is within other professions, law enforcement included. I think my 10th grade social studies teacher, who was pretty good, knew that my 9th grade social studies teacher was an idiot (I mean she must have, she had to deal with so many of his unprepared students), but she wasn’t about to lodge a complaint to the principal about him.

    JVW (60ca93)

  97. JVW,

    While there is the “don’t rock the boat” mentality, there is also the sure knowledge that their union will work hard to protect the bad apples under the cloak of “due process” and thus stretching out any hearings and appeals for years and years as the bad apples continue in the classroom or in an office somewhere all the while receive full compensation. Good teachers and principals know that districts are basically at the mercy of how powerful their teachers’ unions are and act accordingly. Why start the process to remove a bad teacher when the odds of that happening are nearly nil?

    Dana (8e74ce)

  98. “Sowell is not all that familiar with the details, although he has the famous lies about Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown (Ferguson) down right.”

    Is there any reason for me to pay serious attention to Sammy?

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  99. I’ve updated the post with Pat Lynch and Mayor de Blasio’s comments regarding their two hour meeting today.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  100. That’s a fair point, Dana, but I think it is also exacerbated by a general unwillingness to create a situation where there might be divisions and rivalries on a teaching faculty. What was so appalling to me was the case of the LAUSD teacher who was blindfolding young kids and feeding them his semen and putting insects on their faces. When it first came out some teachers at that school told the media that they had always thought the guy was kind of creepy, what with his closing the blinds on his windows and keeping students in his classroom during recess and lunch, but then the union came in and told them to shut their damn mouths lest they give the impression that they could have stopped this guy earlier if they had spoken up. Not only does this highlight the union’s “mind your own business” mentality, but it also speaks to the degree to which teachers are reluctant to speak up against a colleague even if they don’t think something is right. The timidness of the teachers makes it bad; the all-for-one attitude of the union ensures that it is even worse.

    JVW (60ca93)

  101. If we can learn to see each other, then when we see each other, we’ll heal.

    yes yes yes

    and how we can learn to see each other is through regular therapy dog sessions

    we get those pups to town and a glorious tsunami of healing will swamp the five boroughs

    and just in time for new years

    happyfeet (831175)

  102. Mayor de Blasio, who arrived late to the meeting, said in a statement:

    Goddam, of all of the meetings for de Blasio to arrive late. He just has no class, does he?

    But as we all have suspected from the beginning, de Blasio will almost certainly try to paper this over by offering money to the cops, whether in one-time bonuses (if the city is financially strapped), generous pay raises (if he thinks the longterm fiscal prognosis is good), or increased pension benefits (if he wants to pass the costs on to future mayors). If he is really feels as if his back is to the wall, he may offer two or even all three of the above. But you know as a number of us have said, NYC deserves this mess for having elected this clown in the first place.

    JVW (60ca93)

  103. we get those pups to town and a glorious tsunami of healing will swamp the five boroughs

    Dammit, happyfeet, those dogs better be licensed and tagged or there’s gonna be some fines! You can’t have unregistered dogs in New York City.

    JVW (60ca93)

  104. oh dear

    happyfeet (831175)

  105. JVW,

    It speaks to the power of the union. They often run the school districts with the district answering to them.

    de Blasio’s tardiness may speak to his need to exert power, too, no matter how foolish it might look. After all, the meeting that *he* called couldn’t start without him.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  106. “Five minutes early is ten minutes late.” — Dad, and a pile of others.

    htom (4ca1fa)

  107. Leviticus,

    Garner chose to pull his hands away instead of compliantly holding them out for the police to cuff. It doesn’t get much easier to prevent a situation than that.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  108. htom,

    It wasn’t a dinner party and he arrived fashionably late.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  109. Garner escalated by saying “This ends here,” or words to that effect, to indicate he wasn’t going to be arrested without a fight — as he apparently had been 17 times before. He was mad they were arresting him for a petty crime, and I think that’s what upsets many people about this case. It makes it easier to get upset if you view this as an interaction between people: Why couldn’t the police officers find a way to get Garner to comply peacefully?

    But these aren’t interactions between two people. These are interactions between a police officer and a suspect and, under our system, individuals are required to obey lawful police authority (i.e., exercised according to the law and professional standards). Failure to comply has consequences. Fortunately most consequences aren’t like the Garner case … but who had the most knowledge about fragile Garner’s medical condition? Garner, not the police.

    Furthermore, we need to separate the validity of the laws from the officer’s right/duty to enforce the laws. If a police department has made a policy decision to arrest people suspected of misdemeanor offenses, the methods used to enforce those laws shouldn’t be second-guessed if they comply with state law and applicable professional standards. A departmental policy decision that enforcing the laws — even petty crimes — are worth the consequences is not a matter for incentives to get police officers to refuse to do what their employer/job expects them to do or to do it in a more PC manner. If the standards need to be changed then public pressure should be applied to the Police Commissioner, not the police officers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  110. A man was shot and killed in Philadelphia today. The report says he refused to comply with a police order to exit his vehicle and allegedly tried to run over the officers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  111. There’s more to the story, including that he was going to be arrested for making threats against LEOs.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  112. Again, a suspect has a chance to comply and by choosing not to, escalates the situation into a tragedy:

    After trailing him from Clifton Heights, officers pulled over Pacini’s vehicle near the intersection of Garrett Road and Shadeland Avenue around 4:15 p.m. and ordered him from the car. Instead, Chitwood said, the suspect shifted his vehicle into reverse and struck the side of the marked police car.

    Five officers then opened fire.

    “The officers were in fear of their lives and did what they had to do,” Chitwood said.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  113. The point is, the beating happened after he was subdued. Everybody understood the cops were probably angry. But they are not supposed to take it personally and get angry, or administer their own punishments.

    I happen to know quite a bit about the Rodney King episode. Those cops who took him down with batons were denied the use of a “chokehold” which had been banned by LA. Second, they saved his life. Melanie Singer, the CHP officer who had been chasing him and pulled him over, had her gun out and was about to shoot him because he would not give in to her instructions. He was prancing around and shaking his fanny at her.

    The injuries from the batons were minor and not life threatening.

    She testified against the LAPD cops and then retired on strew disability.

    I sent money to Stacey Koon’s family while he was in prison. He got the rawest deal of all.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  114. five against one?

    that’s so unfair

    happyfeet (831175)

  115. “Leviticus– how do you think the Tamir Rice situation should have been handled?”

    – elissa

    87.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/30/2014 @ 3:34 pm

    A newspaper article version of what those two policemen said was that they did indeed intend to stop further away, but they misjudged where they come to a stop. (?) They said they had discussed what to do, and their plan was to shoo him away. (and let him keep the gun?)

    Now, one thing, even though it didn’t get communicated to them how long this had been going on, or of the 911 caller’s suspicion that the gun was fake, still several minutes had elapsed till they got there, and no bullets had been fired. So you were dealing with a possibly very dangerous situation, but it wasn’t necessarily that critical.

    Telling him abruptly to drop the gun, which it sounds like is what happened, and then shooting him two seconds later because he didn’t do it right away, was not the way to go.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  116. JVW (60ca93) — 12/30/2014 @ 4:26 pm

    Goddam, of all of the meetings for de Blasio to arrive late. He just has no class, does he?

    I think he said it would be his New Year’s resolution to start arriving in time.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mayor-de-blasio-talks-reforms-crisis-filled-article-1.2050635

    And, on a personal note, he pledged a New Year’s resolution to be on time.

    But it’s still December 30 right now!

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  117. But as we all have suspected from the beginning, de Blasio will almost certainly try to paper this over by offering money to the cops, whether in one-time bonuses (if the city is financially strapped), generous pay raises (if he thinks the longterm fiscal prognosis is good), or increased pension benefits (if he wants to pass the costs on to future mayors).

    With the teachers he did retroactive pay that they only get if they don’t quit.

    Pensions cannot legally be a part of negotiations. Any change requires an act of the state legislature. Albeit historically the state legislature has followed the recommendations of the city I think, but 1) everybody is now trying to cut pension promises, 2) Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver is under federal investigation (a legacy of the terminated Moreland commission – the problem is his getting money as a lawyer from some company, the question being what did he do for them that’s not part of his official duties) and 3) the state Senate is now going to be under the control of the Republicans for a while, and furthermore 4) Governor Cuomo doesn’t really like him anyway.

    So de Blasio can’t increase pensions, by himself anyway.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  118. The thing wrong with nk@2 is that I think this is not “blue flu” but the orders to police to be very careful came from police headquarters. I read something like that when it started. But I can’t find it.

    I found it, Sammy. It’s Sgt. Phil Esterhaus of the Hill Street station. He ends every roll call with “Be careful out there”.

    nk (dbc370)

  119. Here is my take on police unions.
    The police in general feel that the elected city officials will be quick to offer up officers as a sacrifice to public pressure, whether warranted or not.
    So, in general the union is there to counteract the elected officials, and even when an officer is disciplined by the mayor and the mayor’s chief, the union will fight to reinstate the officer unless other officers agree that the person needs to go. This is not an inside scoop, just an observation.

    My biggest issue has been and will be the reality that too many in the public eye push their narrative instead of trying to get to the truth. Up above Brown, Garner, and Tamir Rice are mentioned together. They have 2 things in common, they are all now dead, and they are/were all black. If people want to push that narrative, they do, but after those two similarities everything is different.

    1) Brown was killed in justifiable self-defense according to the best information available. He wasn’t some angelic kid on the way to grandma’s house who was shot for no reason with his hands up, he was a big man who had just committed a strong arm robbery and had assaulted a police officer.
    There really should have been no controversy about this, except the press and public jumped to believe the lies of an accomplice to the robbery.
    2) Garner died from severe asthma in the midst of an arrest that he escalated. There had been a passage of time, a total of 6 police present, and he physically resisted being handcuffed. his death was tragic, and the police and EMS are probably liable for not realizing the severity of his medical condition, but the only options people give is to assume there must have been some way to diffuse the situation if only the police were better trained.
    Actually, it probably would not have made a difference, but the more reasonable scenario is for the officers to have been physically bigger, stronger, and better trained in control holds so they could have forcibly taken him into custody-which is the option he had chosen- without taking him to the ground. But that probably would have looked too rough for some as well, and might just as well have triggered an exacerbation of his asthma and caused his death, and would be a problem for recruiting and training officers capable of such things.
    3) Rice was likely a mistake that will have consequences, but even with this, the facts are lacking. This “child” weighed 190 pounds, it wasn’t some scrawny 3rd grade, and the orange tip that was supposed to be on the “toy” to prevent such tragedies had been removed. By all accounts a tragic situation, but no evidence of some white police are killing all the young black men so kill the cops and set fires”.

    No reason for all of the agitation except some politically and/or financially profit from it, all it does is make things worse for those trying to obey the law and those trying to keep the peace.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  120. DRJ, I think I noted earlier that Garner was known to these officers, was known to be on bail from a previous arrest, and that was why they were going to process him.
    As some have said: The process is the punishment (in many cases).
    Plus, they had merchant complaints about him in the neighborhood, and leaving him on the street would not have sat well with those merchants.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  121. Consequences:
    The EMT’s involved with Garner, according to earlier reports, were not City employees, but contractors. All were either reassigned to other duties without public contact, or terminated by the contractor following the release of the autopsy of Garner.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  122. If the issue is whether the NYPD and EMT’s made an error Garner’s case and need some discipline and the city pay a settlement, I agree with that.

    But those have not been the questions before the public. The charge before the public, NOT contradicted by Obama or DeBlasio, was that there was a racist war by police across the nation and that “being a black man” was a reason to fear assassination by police, and brown and garner were both examples of uncalled for police brutality fueled by racism.

    Even if one thinks there was an overuse of force with Garner, the officers involved should indicate there was no significant racial component to it.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/30/2014 @ 1:52 pm

    Exactly. There’s hundreds of decisions made by police each year which could be second guessed, but the point of this “I can’t breath” stuff isn’t that they made an error. After-the-fact Monday morning quarterbacking of how the police could have done this or that differently could be somewhat useful at times, but it has zippo to do with why these cases are in the headlines.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  123. Dana wrote:

    93. Leviticus,

    Garner certainly may have not outrun anyone, but you also neglect to acknowledge that his choice of non-compliance ratcheted up the confrontation with officer (Panatelo?). The choice to not escalate a situation started with him…

    Dana (8e74ce) — 12/30/2014 @ 3:47 pm

    Leviticus responded:

    94. If I recall correctly, the police officer reached out to grab Garner’s hands – and Garner pulled them away. Just as a simple factual matter, I really don’t see how that’s Garner choosing to escalate the confrontation, and not the police officer.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/30/2014 @ 3:54 pm

    Dana correctly asserts that a suspect’s act of non-compliance escalates the situation. Leviticus chooses not to see how the suspect’s act of non-compliance escalates the situation.

    Telling.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  124. When the USN conducts Visit, Board, Search and Seizure operations we rank them into three categories. Compliant, non-compliant, and hostile or opposed.

    Non-compliant simply means the crew refuses to cooperate. They aren’t actively resisting. Yet.

    Non-compliance definitely escalates the situation, Leviticus. That’s why it gets its own category.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  125. Worth remembering here is that before DeBlasio or whatever his name is surfaced the good folks of NY were all set to elect serial digital flasher Anthony Weiner Mayor. Until his rehab went South and he reflashed. Tells you all you need to know about The people of NY.

    f1guyus (9cbd15)

  126. Civilian police departments should not follow military ROEs. S-h-o-u-l-d n-o-t. Laying down covering fire and radioing for an artillery salvo is not always appropriate in Midtown Manhattan.

    nk (dbc370)

  127. Umm, nk, you apparently don’t know that during compliant and non-compliant VBSS operations the Navy for all practical purposes follows law enforcement “ROE.”

    http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=23745

    ABOARD USS UNDERWOOD (NNS) — Members from Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachment (LEDET) 403 embarked aboard USS Underwood (FFG 36) during “Partnership of the Americas” during the months of April and May to train the ship’s visit, board, search and seizure (VBSS) team and conduct law enforcement operations…

    Shipboard VBSS teams aren’t assault teams. Which is why they don’t train nor do the conduct hostile or opposed VBSS (although the do train to fight their way out if a non-compliant VBSS turns hostile).

    When those are required, and authorized, then USMC Special Operations Capable units or the SEALs handle it.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  128. Laying down covering fire and radioing for an artillery salvo is not always appropriate in Midtown Manhattan.

    Since when?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  129. All his name changes and name permutations really do seem a bit…. strange. It’s his life, of course. But it does suggest the mayor is someone who has struggled with his identity and with being comfortable in his skin throughout much of his life.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/election/de-blasio-names-de-blasio-article-1.1463591

    elissa (8fed26)

  130. “When the USN conducts Visit, Board, Search and Seizure operations we rank them into three categories. Compliant, non-compliant, and hostile or opposed.”

    – Steve57

    Steve57 fails to distinguish police officers from soldiers dealing with enemies. Telling.

    Leviticus (7d10dd)

  131. Heh! I agree with the general sentiment, but it should be designated a free-fire zone first to give warning to innocent visitors to stay out.

    We’ve gone far astray. De Blasio should have taken responsibility for his police force and not taken sides with the mob against them. He should have said, “You all calm yourselves down. These boys work for me and if they’ve done something wrong we’ve got ways to deal with it.” Not thrown them to the wolves. He’s a weasel. The police, too, should rise above De Blasio. Fulfill their duty. Professionally. Not take their pique out on the city.

    In a long ago thread, I was laughed at for saying public employee unions are a defense against governmental tyranny. That it is a good thing, in that particular respect as a preventative of governmental tyranny, for government employees to have an identity and loyalty to an organization other than the government. Some of you said I was dreaming. Public employees will always side with the government. Well, ….

    nk (dbc370)

  132. 129.
    I almost did the same thing, for essentially the same reason, in my early twenties,and did not solely because I did not want the hassle of paperwork that would ensue. Thirty years later, I have a much better relation with my father, and it is fortunate I kept my birth name. The mayor presumably never mended his relationship with his father.
    I must admit, though, that there are times I feel I should have done it, simply because my name is so utterly boring and commonplace (Smith).

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  133. Steve57 fails to distinguish police officers from soldiers dealing with enemies. Telling.
    Leviticus (7d10dd) — 12/30/2014 @ 7:02 pm

    From my continued reading, it seemed that he went on to say that indeed Coast Guard search and seizure operations are just like police work, and when a known hostile situation is a foot that’s when the military (marines and Seals) gets involved. Like when a police action turns into a situation with heavily armed bad guys that means the SWAT team responds (for a legitimate call).

    But, yeah, nk, that’s it.

    The only point for discussion is whether the police are merely taking their vengeance out on the city, or whether they are trying to make a strong statement that their effectiveness has been compromised by DeBlasio and that a few words and a NYT editorial means less than the paper it was printed on. I’m guessing you can find police who deeply feel one way or the other, and some a mix.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  134. Forgive me if I believe it’s more likely that he was hiding out under his unofficial aliases until statutes of limitations expired, debts were classified as un-collectible, and files on him were shredded.

    nk (dbc370)

  135. Thanks, doc. I did make a point of emphasizing that compliant and non-compliant boardings do not involve known hostiles. Just civilian mariners, who may be friendly or unfriendly. But that doesnt turn them into combatants. I guess once again the entire point is what Leviticus deliberately “fails to see.”

    Steve57 (f603a5)

  136. So, if he didn’t legally change his name to deBlasio until 2002 does that mean his kids have his old hyphenated name, or did they have to change their names, too, when he changed his the second time, or are they just makin’ it up as they go along as he apparently did for much of his life? Sounds like a project for……Sammy!

    elissa (b1f70c)

  137. I’m afraid I don’ t really get the motivation on the Left to protect the lives of its lawless cannon fodder beyond keeping them submissive given the inefficiencies.

    Holding the local government liable when cashing a Federal check seems problematic, endangering cooperation of a second enforcement arm extending its power, the first being the military.

    I don’t see this initiative going anywhere but to goose collapse.

    DNF (d3065a)

  138. Elissa,

    As your link says, a “dizzying tangle” indeed.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  139. 136
    As a proper progressive family, it is probably McCray-DiBlasio

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  140. The kids can just go with whatever their name is on their birth certificates. It’s his problem to establish his connection to them when a parent’s signature is required. Most people satisfy that with the parents’ names on the birth certificate but that’s just a convenience not an absolute requirement. When he dies, it will be the kids’ problem to claim inheritance I suppose, but paternity can be proven by all kinds of evidence including reputation and hearsay and Christmas cards saying “Son” and “Daddy”.

    nk (dbc370)

  141. Steve57 fails to distinguish police officers from soldiers dealing with enemies. Telling.

    Leviticus (7d10dd) — 12/30/2014 @ 7:02 pm

    False premise. Telling.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  142. 130. I rather doubt that you can give your insinuation sense. Isn’t an analogy a limited acknowledgement of similarity?

    When we use a relation, this is like that, are we really opening ourselves up to the Goldbach conjecture?

    You are really a shameless little dink are you not?

    DNF (d3065a)

  143. Good point about “boardings”.
    Leviticus may not be aware that the Coast Guard is assigned to enforce civil laws in the Maritime Environment, and operates under the same basic ROE’s that guide cops and other Federal LE – until the situation turns to s..t, then they can cut loose the .50’s and big stuff. They are their own SWAT.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  144. Analyzing these incidents to death is, again, missing the big picture – that this isn’t about whether the police could have done something different with 20-20 hindsight. It’s race politics. The incident with the black Harvard Prof. in 2009 was a foretaste of what Obama and his ilk are doing to the country. It’s a reasonable argument that the cop didn’t need to arrest him, but so what? That wasn’t why Obama and the media inappropriately brought it to everyone’s attention.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  145. But it does suggest the mayor is someone who has struggled with his identity and with being comfortable in his skin throughout much of his life.

    You ever notice how progressives who have, shall we say, unresolved issues from their childhoods have a penchant for seeking elective office so that we can provide some sort of rehabilitative therapy for them? Maybe they think they can make up for their absent father hang-ups by making government into one giant daddy for all of us.

    JVW (60ca93)

  146. The cops are being tasked with all these little harassing taxes and local ordinances. That is what poisoned the well at Ferguson, MO and in New York. Squeegee men were not selling untaxed cigarettes. They were committing a low grade assault on motorists. Send a separate tax collector officer for the collections that alienate people so much. Reserve the sworn officers for real lawbreakers.

    I would not surprised if the EMTs were part of the problem with Garner. I have seen a few incidents with EMTs. Not all are angels of mercy.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  147. heh, JVW. Why yes, now that you mention it I can think of a few examples right off the bat. A couple of these damaged prog guys have even sat in the oval office.

    elissa (3e3a70)

  148. 142. Goldbach–uh, you know, the mean duration of political discussion before someone hollers ‘Nazi’.

    A little help?

    DNF (d3065a)

  149. The police have it put upon them to figure it out on how to perform the tasks these “these little harassing taxes and local ordinances” entail.
    The public can be a pain in the ass… but everyones “master” is a pain and every man has a master and can really only serve one well (at best). Police can’t take the easy way out and say: “I only have to answer to Jesus”, so they have to figure out how to show the public how sausage is made without ruining the meal

    steveg (794291)

  150. Godwin?

    nk (dbc370)

  151. Oh
    and godspeed to them all except those who need to be weeded out lest they poison the rest.

    steveg (794291)

  152. Goldbach according to Wiki
    And according to xkcd
    Not quite seeing the connection myself

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  153. Mayor de Blasio, who arrived late to the meeting,

    What’s with liberals and they’re lack of punctuality? Bill Clinton was, and is, notorious for being late to appointments and meetings, so is Obama, and most certainly so is de Blasio, who may be the most leftwing of the three and has taken a lot of flak for being a flake.

    As for a correlation of one with the other…

    suncoastnews.com, April 2014: Time magazine has published a synopsis of the results of a study of 220,000 people who answered an apolitical 12-question survey and then volunteered their political preferences. Relying on several sociological studies, Time determined a statistical correlation between a number of traits such as openness to new experiences — fusion cuisine — and higher levels of self-expression to those with a liberal bias, and things like conscientiousness, punctuality and self-control to conservatives.

    The fact New York City’s mayor couldn’t even be prompt to a meeting involving people who’ve recently put him in the hot seat, and who he certainly shouldn’t have wanted to offend by being his usual late-arriving self and looking even more cavalier and rude in the process, says a lot about “Leftwing People’s Time.”

    Speaking of which, there is another good example of the relationship between leftism and a lack of punctuality, since the most monolithically liberal demographic in America is known for the following:

    huffingtonpost.com, April 2010: Also known as “colored people’s time,” CP Time is an inside reference within the black community on the tendency of black folk to show up late for just about anything. Other ethnic groups have their own versions. I’ve heard of “India Standard Time” as well as the the more specific “Africa Time.”

    [T]here’s a lengthy explanation of CP Time in the December 1972 edition of Black World magazine. In an essay titled, “Ellison, Gordone and Tolson: Some Notes on the Blues, Style and Space,” Ronald Walcott opens with “The Prologue of [Ralph Ellison’s] Invisible Man is, among other things, a discourse on time and space; on, that is, the Black awareness of time as space.” Later in the essay, Walcott expands on the relation of art forms to the cultural climate of the day with this extended explanation of CP Time:

    Black people always seem to be late and, in fact, have been late so often and so predictably that they themselves have coined a term for it: CP Time, Colored People’s Time. CP time is usually spoken of in tones of the profoundest dismay (by Blacks who lament their brothers’ “irresponsibility that will hold us all back”) or of outraged complacency (by whites who see this habitual lateness as yet further instance of our don’t-give-a-damn-attitude, “but really, what can you expect?”) or of amused tolerance (by the rest of us who are so accustomed to it we hardly notice it.”

    Mark (c160ec)

  154. But I guess we need a new one now that Fermat’s conjecture has been proved.

    kishnevi (294553)

  155. From the original post, the Times says: “Mr. DeBlasio isn’t about to say it”…

    OK Times. Thanks for letting him speak through you instead of him doing it for himself in a “passive aggressive” fashion. Life is a lot easier when the NY Times carries your water.
    The NYPD needs to realize that the NY Times is not a friend even though they vote in lockstep.
    Backing DeBlasio will levy a high cost on the cop unions and on DeBlasio and in my opinion the cop unions will settle for more money and benefits… look at it this way, what is the easiest way for DeBlasio to appease the police? Overpay them using other peoples money… problem solved the benevolent dictator communist way

    steveg (794291)

  156. I remember a judge years ago who got into hot water after he complained an unpunctual black attorney was on Zimbabwe Time.

    kishnevi (a5d1b9)

  157. What’s with liberals and they’re lack of punctuality?

    In my experience it is more a matter of being self-centered than being on the left side of the political spectrum. Narcissists like Clinton, Obama, and de Blasio just naturally assume that whatever they are doing at any given moment is the most important thing in the world, so everything else and everyone else can wait. I think there have been stories about how Chris Christie has problems being on time for events too, and he’s certainly a guy who doesn’t suffer from self-esteem issues.

    JVW (60ca93)

  158. supporting the brave men and women in uniform who protect us every day

    Dana – The Mayor didn’t call them racist, homophobic, killbots? Babysteps.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  159. “You are really a shameless little dink are you not?”

    – DNF

    Kind of, I guess. No doubt our esteemed commentariat is Shocked and Appalled at your lack of civility, but you really call ’em like you see ’em, old timer. I can dig that.

    Leviticus (7d10dd)

  160. Why can’t my armed dudes just board your vessel without you escalating the situation by not actively cooperating?

    Whatever happened to that “Molon Labe” sassiness I was growing so fond of?

    Leviticus (7d10dd)

  161. People who ‘live’ on their boats take a particular type of umbrage about the fact that the USCG does not need a warrant to enter their home, but can do so on-demand, and that they do not necessarily arrive wearing footwear that is ‘non-marking’.
    That makes for uncooperative encounters.
    Also, many times they arrive in a skiff or other small boat dispatched from a larger vessel with crew-members standing-by ‘crew served’ weaponry.
    It is not even a velvet covered fist.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  162. In my experience it is more a matter of being self-centered than being on the left side of the political spectrum.

    Are many people in the black community therefore also self-centered, since a lack of punctuality apparently is quite high among a good percentage of them—and a black guy spoke with me about this very subject a few years ago and affirmed its existence. But, yes, while being self-centered or narcissistic may be contributing factors to “Leftwing People’s Time,” I still suspect a lot of what’s behind that behavior can be traced to the sloppiness and immaturity of liberal biases in general.

    Mark (c160ec)

  163. Perhaps not self-centered, but with a high degree of disregard for the concerns of others and a great feeling of being “owed” and that this is all “payback” for what unknown ancestors had to submit to.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  164. but with a high degree of disregard for the concerns of others

    I’ve observed some extremely and excessively obnoxious, rude and unkind (or rowdy) behavior and speech patterns among people who happen to be black through the years, and have long wondered how much of that is a by-product of the pervasive liberalism throughout black America. Since surveys have shown that left-leaning biases can ironically enough make people just the opposite of what they most fancy about themselves or those they tend to admire politically, it stands to reason that the most monolithically leftwing enclave in the US should have no shortage of traits that are anything but kind-hearted, decent, compassionate and humane.

    Mark (c160ec)

  165. Well, one of the interesting aspects of the whole focus on self-esteem in youth education is that according to surveys young black males score really high in terms of self-esteem despite having more academic difficulties and discipline issues than any other racial or gender designation. So I go back to my idea that it has to do with feelings of self-importance that allows you to believe you have license to inconvenience others.

    JVW (60ca93)

  166. 160. Why can’t my armed dudes just board your vessel without you escalating the situation by not actively cooperating?

    Whatever happened to that “Molon Labe” sassiness I was growing so fond of?

    Leviticus (7d10dd) — 12/30/2014 @ 10:01 pm

    You really have no idea what you’re talking about, and every desire to flaunt the fact you have no intention of ever finding out, don’t you, Leviticus?

    About the closest equivalent to VBSS most people are likely to see is a state trooper or Kali Highway Patrolman pulling a trucker over to enforce DOT regulations. Like the USN, and the USCG, it’s something these cops are not only entitled to but obligated to do.

    And at this stage of the evening Leviticus is doubling down on his stance that if the trucker is refusing to let the cop inspect his cargo, refusing to show the cop any paperwork for that cargo, and is refusing to show the cop his log he’s not escalating the situation.

    Bravo, Leviticus. I couldn’t have written a better parody of someone trying to make the point you attempted to make (that Garner didn’t escalate the situation when he became non-compliant) if I had tried.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  167. Apparently de Blasio is late for everything. This is the sign of an insecure jerk who thinks he’s executing a deft power play. He’s not. It’s something that an amateur pulls because he read it in some stupid “Top Strategies for Up and Coming Executives.” What a putz.

    Funeral Guy (afbf7b)

  168. 143. Good point about “boardings”.
    Leviticus may not be aware that the Coast Guard is assigned to enforce civil laws in the Maritime Environment, and operates under the same basic ROE’s that guide cops and other Federal LE – until the situation turns to s..t, then they can cut loose the .50′s and big stuff. They are their own SWAT.

    askeptic (efcf22) — 12/30/2014 @ 8:30 pm

    I found it amusing that after explaining the different categories of boardings, and how it’s essentially USCG law enforcement standards the USN operates under when conducting compliant and non-compliant VBSS, Leviticus turned around and accused me of not making the distinctions that those very categories exist to recognize!?!?

    Steve57 fails to distinguish police officers from soldiers dealing with enemies. Telling.

    And yes, you’re right about the USCG. They enforce federal maritime law, and they can board any US-flagged vessel anywhere in the world, any vessel in US waters, and any vessel whose flag nation gives the USCG permission to board anywhere in the world, to conduct customs, safety, and law enforcement inspections.

    I would say the USCG can also board stateless vessels anywhere in the world, but then anybody can board stateless vessels anywhere in the world.

    As far as the SWAT analogy goes, I guess the USCG is their own SWAT. But then when the SEALs and Marines conduct an opposed boarding they’re not acting as any sort of police SWAT team. They’re not there to effect an arrest. They’re there to take the ship.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  169. young black males score really high in terms of self-esteem despite having more academic difficulties and discipline issues than any other racial or gender designation.

    A common trait among many liberals, or that appears to be a result of liberalism, is being a poor judge of people and situations, or a lousy judge of good and bad human characteristics in particular, including in oneself. Moreover, the left is notorious for pushing the idea that kids do poorly in school because they lack self-esteem (versus a lack of self-discipline, self-control), because they’re not given enough big pats on the head. So, again, the leftism that roils black America — that percolates all around and through it — can manifest in any number of ways, in any number of shapes and forms.

    Mark (c160ec)

  170. [O]verall arrests down 66 percent for the week starting Dec. 22 compared with the same period in 2013, stats show.
    Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

    Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

    Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.
    Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.

    Wait, WHAT?

    Is any of this supposed to tick people off? On what planet?

    IGotBupkia,"Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." (155353)

  171. it’s like a tax cut

    happyfeet (831175)

  172. You guys are talking about two different things. Steve is talking about what makes the boarding party click their selector levers to full auto; Leviticus is talking about the boat owner’s freedom and dignity.

    The situation is already escalated as far as it can be escalated when a man with a gun tells you to do something under threat of using that gun. You can comply, or you can fight, or you can passively resist, or pray for a stroke of lightning, or call your lawyer, or bluster, or offer money, or take off your clothes and lie down with your legs spread, or jump overboard, or, or, or …. In the end, the guy with the gun decides the outcome even it it is to back off and leave you alone. If you’re the guy who gave him the gun and are paying his salary, make sure you picked him carefully, trained him properly, and put him under superiors who hold him on a tight leash.

    nk (dbc370)

  173. IGotBupkia,”Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.” (155353) — 12/31/2014 @ 2:45 am

    Is any of this supposed to tick people off? On what planet?

    Maybe not the reduction in parking violation citations by police (down 92% from a similar period last year) or even the traffic violations, (down 94%) except for what it signifies, but drug arrests by the NYPD Oraganized Crime Control Bureau dropped by 84% from 382 to 63 and overall arrests are down 66%)

    Come to think of it, this may not be all since the killings, but maybe has something to do with the demonstrations, with lots of police assigned to them.

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  174. 125. f1guyus (9cbd15) — 12/30/2014 @ 6:33 pm

    Worth remembering here is that before DeBlasio or whatever his name is surfaced the good folks of NY were all set to elect serial digital flasher Anthony Weiner Mayor. Until his rehab went South and he reflashed.

    That was not going to happen after 2011, although maybe Anthony Weiner hoped so. Weiner’s ceiling was too low.

    Bill de Blasio was simply the latest NOT-Christine Quinn when the bell rang. His totals in the polls shot up right before the election, and he barely passed the 40% threshhold for avoiding a primary runoff with Bill Thompson.

    As for the Republican Party, it doesn’t really exist in New York City. A candidate on the Republican line might as well be running as an independent. So Joe Lhota didn’t really get any traction, carrying only, I think, part of Staten Island; the Upper East side of Manhattan (because it is somewhat Republican and because of opposition to a garbage collection place, picked not to save money, but to geographically distribute the burden among boroughs while avoiding poor areas); and the more traditional Jewish areas of Brooklyn (in which I will includes arrivals from Russia after 1970.)

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  175. nk (dbc370) — 12/30/2014 @ 8:19 pm

    . When he dies, it will be the kids’ problem to claim inheritance I suppose,

    Only if he doesn’t leave a will.

    It might be a bigger problem to claim to be next of kin for medical decisions, but this is largely done on the honor system (What! there’s time to make a whole investigation?) and I think in New York State law, the criteria is someone in a position to know the wishes of the patient or the deceased.

    The biggest issue might be claiming the body. Sometimes who has a right to do so becomes an issue. Usually, I think, there is no dispute as to who people are, maybe because lawyers don’t get involved at the stage when relationship might be disputed or a claim of a closer relationship than reality might be made.

    The only disputes really are where someone has the legal authority to get the body, but other family members think they shouldn’t have, or where a person has more than one wife, and the question is who is the real wife.

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  176. Isn’t funny how the media positively loves this type of action or statement as long as its aimed at a Republican or conservative individual or ideal. In those cases its an important act of citizenship and exercise of free speech to voice ones displeasure, but when its a liberal you are protesting, not so much. It was fine for Democrats to make all manner of political hay out of dead American soldiers during the Bush Administration but it unbelievably tacky for the members of the NYPD to turn their backs on Mr. Mayor at a funeral.

    Mark Johnson (ea2309)

  177. Isn’t it funny how the media positively loves this type of action or statement as long as its aimed at a Republican or conservative individual or ideal. In those cases its an important act of citizenship and exercise of free speech to voice ones displeasure, but when its a liberal you are protesting, not so much. It was fine for Democrats to make all manner of political hay out of dead American soldiers during the Bush Administration but it unbelievably tacky for the members of the NYPD to turn their backs on Mr. Mayor at a funeral.

    (there…fixed it)

    Mark Johnson (ea2309)

  178. if you think this is bad wait til the dimbulb nypd thugs find out their unrealistic piggy pensions are unrealistic

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  179. 146. Mike K (90dfdc) — 12/30/2014 @ 8:40 pm

    The cops are being tasked with all these little harassing taxes and local ordinances.

    The city of Ferguson, Missouri cropped up in two different front page news stories I read on Friday that did not concern the Michael Brown incident or the protests.

    One was a New York Times story about how bad loans against cars that people already own are, (and how the government’s not doing anything about them.)

    http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/dipping-into-auto-equity-devastates-many-borrowers/?_r=0

    One of the people whose stories were told had moved out of Ferguson, Missouri “to a higher-priced suburb of St. Louis that promised better schools.” (but then she got divorced, and she took out a $3,461title loan against her 2002 Suburban but then one day last March it got repossessed and she couldn’t to run her day-care business.

    The other story was from the Wall Street Journal about the difficulty arrest records cause for people, even unjustified arrests.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/fighting-to-forget-long-after-arrests-records-live-on-1419564612

    One person whose story was told was from Ferguson, Missouri – and was a totally unwarranted arrest.

    Shannon Rene Joliff knows that efforts to clear a record, even an erroneous one, don’t necessarily mean it disappears.

    Ms. Joliff, 42, had a traffic stop in August 2009 in Ferguson, Mo., outside St. Louis. The officer saw what appeared to be an outstanding warrant for her on a felony drug charge and took her into custody.

    At the time, she went by her married name, Shannon Rene McNeal. The warrant named a Shannon Raquel McNeal and was issued for failure to make a court appearance.

    Shannon Raquel McNeal hadn’t appeared because two months before the court date, she was killed in a drive-by shooting. The attorney representing her at the time, Kristy Ridings, said she informed authorities of the death soon after.

    “It was still raw. I remember going in to tell the judge,” Ms. Ridings said.

    Though Ms. Joliff/McNeal differed from Shannon Raquel McNeal in middle name, age and fingerprints, she remained jailed after she was moved to St. Louis, where the warrant originated. Her bond was set at $20,000, according to a damage suit she later filed in federal court against local government and law-enforcement officials.

    Ms. Joliff was freed in a couple of days but after spending $4,000 for an attorney, she said. To raise money for legal expenses, “we had to sell living-room furniture, the washer, dryer, whatever we could.”

    In addition, she lost her job driving a city bus. Strapped for cash, she said, she moved in with friends.

    She was reinstated at her job months later, after a court sent the transportation agency a letter showing that she had never been the true defendant and included a judge’s order that demanded her immediate release.

    Ms. Joliff said she got her record cleared in the state court that sent that letter, the 22nd Circuit, covering the city of St. Louis.

    But court personnel told her she probably had a record elsewhere, she recalled, because Ferguson, where she was arrested and fingerprinted, is covered by the 21st Circuit. To have the record expunged in both jurisdictions at once, she would have to inform both when she filed, said Paul Fox, director of judicial administration for the circuit court that includes Ferguson.

    Ferguson police referred questions to the courts and city hall. At city hall, assistant city manager Pam Hylton didn’t say whether Ms. Joliff still had a record but said if a person didn’t include the city in an expungement request, it is possible the city would still have a record of an arrest.

    The Missouri file system contains no record linking Ms. Joliff to the drug charge, said a spokesman for the 22nd Circuit, Thom Gross.

    Still, a recent check with two online background services showed they connected Ms. Joliff to the drug case.

    BeenVerified Inc. and LexisNexis’s Accurint both showed Ms. Joliff as having been charged in the drug matter and listed the case as “not disposed.”

    A spokesman for BeenVerified wouldn’t comment on a specific case but said the firm would clear records if it received notice of an expungement either from the individual or from services that work to clear records online.

    LexisNexis also declined to comment on a specific case. A spokeswoman for the firm, a unit of Reed Elsevier PLC, said it wouldn’t report a record that had been sealed or expunged, once it became aware of this status. She said people can contact the firm directly if they have documents showing an expungement.

    Court files concerning Ms. Joliff’s lawsuit over her arrest show a tentative settlement was reached early this month. It calls for her to receive $5,000, according to Ms. Joliff and her lawyer, James Hacking III. St. Louis City Counselor Winston Calvert confirmed the amount of the settlement but wouldn’t comment further.

    Ms. Joliff said she didn’t have the money to pursue the record matter further, such as with background-search services.

    “St. Louis City admitted they made a mistake,” she said. “I should not have to pay a dime to clear my name. It should be cleared.”

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  180. “You guys are talking about two different things. Steve is talking about what makes the boarding party click their selector levers to full auto; Leviticus is talking about the boat owner’s freedom and dignity.

    The situation is already escalated as far as it can be escalated when a man with a gun tells you to do something under threat of using that gun. You can comply, or you can fight, or you can passively resist, or pray for a stroke of lightning, or call your lawyer, or bluster, or offer money, or take off your clothes and lie down with your legs spread, or jump overboard, or, or, or …. In the end, the guy with the gun decides the outcome even it it is to back off and leave you alone. If you’re the guy who gave him the gun and are paying his salary, make sure you picked him carefully, trained him properly, and put him under superiors who hold him on a tight leash.”

    – nk

    Bingo.

    It’s not about ROEs or boarding protocols or how many supervisors you have on hand to observe a chokehold. It’s about the self-conception of police officers. The problem isn’t when soldiers act like police officers; the problem is when police officers act like soldiers.

    Non-compliance may “escalate” a situation, which was the original point of this whole Coast Guard tangent (I think). But seeking to enforce compliance with the threat of violence definitely escalates it further.

    And, for anyone but a cop, meeting less-than-deadly force with deadly force usually gets you in trouble.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  181. Sammy, what do De Blasio and the NYPD have to do with 171% interest auto loans?

    nk (dbc370)

  182. young black males score really high in terms of self-esteem despite having more academic difficulties and discipline issues than any other racial or gender designation.

    Don’t ignore the effects of the MAOA Gene on black males, especially young ones. A lot of the violence and crime committed by them has a potential genetic component that will be difficult to modify. Self-esteem is part of this although the education system contributes a lot of it.

    An association between the 2R allele of the VNTR region of the gene and an increase in the likelihood of committing serious crime or violence has been found

    And The frequency distribution of variants of the MAO-A gene differs between ethnic groups. 59% of Black men, 54% of Chinese men, 56% of Maori men, and 34% of Caucasian men carry the 3R allele. 5.5% of Black men, 0.1% of Caucasian men, and 0.00067% of Asian men carry the 2R allele

    This may have a major effect on the differences between crime and aggressive behavior in black males vs white males.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  183. de Blasio’s staff making cold-calls for support before his meeting with union heads:

    While Mayor Bill de Blasio was personally coaxing the city’s police union presidents to meet with him, his top aides were on the phones with lawmakers urging them to blast PBA President Patrick Lynch and other officers for turning their backs on the mayor following the assassinations of two of New York’s Finest, DNA info New York has learned.

    As late as Monday afternoon — the same time de Blasio was speaking with police union leaders to set up Tuesday’s détente to possibly mend their fractured relationship — the mayor’s government affairs honchos were privately cold-calling the city’s Democratic delegation of city and state elected officials, asking them to publicly criticize Lynch and those officers who dissed the mayor.

    “City Hall wanted me to blast the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association for turning their backs on him,” a Big Apple legislator told “On The Inside.” “They called up Monday, said they were calling all of us, and that it was our obligation to stand up defending the mayor.”

    There was an expectation from City Hall that “because they were calling that we should do whatever they ask,” the lawmaker said.

    Another lawmaker, who also received a call from a top City Hall official, said he did not feel pressured to speak out, but thought it was “really inappropriate” to be asked even though he did not agree with the police protests.

    “I think the mayor should not find himself in that position, particularly on an issue that is so sensitive, asking elected officials to chime in on something like this,” he said. “It is not really appropriate and I felt badly that they had to do it.”

    He was already leaning toward making a public statement, but declined to say whether he actually did.

    A City Hall spokesman did not immediately return a call seeking comment. The heads of the city’s police unions were not immediately available as well.

    “The mayor’s people said that this had nothing to do with politics, so I said, ‘then what is the purpose of this call?’” one of the lawmakers added.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  184. Stalinist tactics. He’s asking loyal Party members to “denounce” the reactionaries. He’s a dweeb.

    nk (dbc370)

  185. hf

    True on the pension, and true on how thuggish some cops get when their union affiliation trumps that whole “protect and serve” nonsense. They’ll be on live TV assaulting people from FOX, vandalizing, and face zero reprecussions except maybe two weeks paid leave.

    I was serious earlier that deBlasio will give the unions more than they asked for, by giving them raise increase promises for future years that exceed what they originally were asking and in return deBlasio will get some meaningless concessions that turn out as a wash.

    steveg (794291)

  186. MikeK

    Are you really Larry Summers?

    Scientific inquiry = HATE SPEECH!!!!!!

    steveg (794291)

  187. It’s not about ROEs or boarding protocols or how many supervisors you have on hand to observe a chokehold. It’s about the self-conception of police officers. The problem isn’t when soldiers act like police officers; the problem is when police officers act like soldiers.

    Why shouldn’t they drive in armored cars and act like soldiers when people attack them like terrorists? It’s the reality of today’s terrorism-based world, and I see no reason to expect them to rely solely on words, batons and mace to defend themselves.

    Non-compliance may “escalate” a situation, which was the original point of this whole Coast Guard tangent (I think). But seeking to enforce compliance with the threat of violence definitely escalates it further. And, for anyone but a cop, meeting less-than-deadly force with deadly force usually gets you in trouble.

    Unlike us, the police have to show up when someone may have broken the law. Failure to obey a lawful police order can lead to violence.
    From the public’s standpoint, I can see preferring negotiation to violence — of course we citizens want the police to go above and beyond to protect us, even when we’re being noncompliant or stupid. But aren’t there also consequences to avoiding arrests, like far more time to handle routine calls and thus less police available to respond to other calls? Also, some people will feel free to do what they want, even if it’s illegal, if they believe they won’t be arrested.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  188. Re: the MAOA Gene: “High testosterone, maternal tobacco smoking during pregnancy, poor material living standards, dropping out of school, and low IQ can also trigger violent behavior in men with the low-activity alleles (which are overwhelmingly the 3R allele).[29][30]”

    “59% of Black men, 54% of Chinese men, 56% of Maori men, and 34% of Caucasian men carry the 3R allele.”

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  189. Again, as nk said, pick police well, give them clear guidelines, train them to respond, and then let them respond.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  190. “Why shouldn’t they drive in armored cars and act like soldiers when people attack them like terrorists?”

    – DRJ

    I think that’s a very difficult question to answer. Looking back, it’s difficult as a question of infinite regress. Looking forward, its disturbing as a self-fulfilling prophecy. In the present, its logic is pretty inescapable. Why not act like soldiers, if people treat you like enemy occupiers?

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  191. “Again, as nk said, pick police well, give them clear guidelines, train them to respond, and then let them respond.”

    – DRJ

    And if they make a mistake, even after all of that?

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  192. The way I see it – if you live around goons and thugs, one deserves what they serve.
    Deal with it – or better yet – move to the country.

    mg (31009b)

  193. It’s not a question of equipment. During the hatchet attack in New York, the police fired 19 shots at practically arm’s length range at the attacker and one of the misses hit an innocent bystander down the street. A woman, in the back. In Austin, a police sergeant holding the reins of two horses with one hand fired a single shot from 104 yards away and got the bad guy, armed with two rifles, in the heart. The New York cops were following military ROEs, laying down a barrage like they were in a combat zone. The Austin cop did what a civilian police officer should do in an urban environment — picked his target and placed his shot carefully. Temperament and the right kind of training.

    nk (dbc370)

  194. Of course the police will make mistakes — we’re all human. The remedies are sanctions and criminal prosecution, which police already face, the courts are available for civil judgments. The question you’re focusing on is how do we help police avoid misconduct, and I think the answer is the same thing that works with other professions.

    Try using lawyers instead of the police. How do we get better lawyers — by society micromanaging their incentives and behavior, or by law schools, bar associations, and employers providing better rules and training?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  195. I don’t know if this is true but this New York Times’ article says the NYPD provides brief, minimal firearms training for its officers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  196. If you want incentives, provide incentives and assistance to police departments that enhance realistic training for its officers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  197. It sounds reasonable, DRJ. The Illinois requirement was thirty hours for armed peace officers back in the mid-80s (it may be different now) and little of it was actually shooting at things. Shooting is an acquired skill and it needs to be maintained by regular practice.

    nk (dbc370)

  198. “Why not act like soldiers, if people treat you like enemy occupiers?”

    Do we have a chicken versus egg problem or is that a conversation we are not allowed to have?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  199. I think there is something to be said that police could/should be required to do more physical training and shooting practice than they do, but to tell them to do it during work hours means more staffing and a bigger budget, or adding an expectation on what they will do on their off hours.

    You know that Austin cop didn’t learn to shoot that way from police academy training.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  200. And if they make a mistake, even after all of that?
    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 8:32 am

    That’s what the Courts are for, to sift through the chaff to find the kernels of wheat.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  201. I imagine “back in the day” (I wonder how far back), the expectation was that most people would never choose to pick a gun battle with police, and just the presence of the uniform, badge, and “service revolver” was enough. Perhaps the times changed but the training requirement didn’t.
    IDK.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  202. nk (dbc370) — 12/31/2014 @ 8:43 am

    I would suggest then that we take away their Glocks (never did like them) and replace them with Colt Peacemakers.
    One, revolvers are inherently more accurate than semi’s; and with less capacity, they would concentrate more on developing and maintaining a level of proficient marksmanship.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  203. “The remedies are sanctions and criminal prosecution, which police already face, the courts are available for civil judgments. The question you’re focusing on is how do we help police avoid misconduct, and I think the answer is the same thing that works with other professions.

    Try using lawyers instead of the police. How do we get better lawyers — by society micromanaging their incentives and behavior, or by law schools, bar associations, and employers providing better rules and training?”

    – DRJ

    I agree with you that we should help police avoid misconduct using the same tools that work with other professions. I agree with you and nk that better screening and training on the front end should emphasized.

    But I do think there are two distinct goals: getting better professionals, and getting better outcomes. Certainly, working toward the first goal goes a long way toward obtaining the second (which is a valid point that you have made consistently). I continue to think there is value in considering the second goal in a vacuum, which is why I am so focused on incentives/disincentives in this context. After all, we may not get better lawyers (or police officers) by micromanaging their incentives and behavior; but we may certainly get better outcomes by micromanaging their incentives and behavior.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  204. Better Outcomes?
    How do you square that with the Disparate Impact settlements that have been forced down the throats of cities and PD’s across the nation by the DoJ?
    There is almost no standard except race allowed to be used in hiring today – if you don’t fit in the preconceived quota, you don’t get the job. If you do fit, it doesn’t matter that you’re a moron, as long as you’re breathing you get hired.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  205. We disbar lawyers who demonstrate sufficient incompetence, regardless of additional criminal or civil sanction. Same for many (if not most) professionals. Since we help avoid legal malpractice by disallowing sufficiently incompetent lawyers from practicing law, I think we would help avoid police malpractice by disallowing sufficiently incompetent police officers from policing (again, regardless of additional criminal or civil sanction).

    If we can agree on that, then it just becomes a question of what “sufficiently incompetent” means.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  206. 180.

    “You guys are talking about two different things. Steve is talking about what makes the boarding party click their selector levers to full auto; Leviticus is talking about the boat owner’s freedom and dignity.

    The situation is already escalated as far as it can be escalated when a man with a gun tells you to do something under threat of using that gun. You can comply, or you can fight, or you can passively resist, or pray for a stroke of lightning, or call your lawyer, or bluster, or offer money, or take off your clothes and lie down with your legs spread, or jump overboard, or, or, or …. In the end, the guy with the gun decides the outcome even it it is to back off and leave you alone. If you’re the guy who gave him the gun and are paying his salary, make sure you picked him carefully, trained him properly, and put him under superiors who hold him on a tight leash.”

    – nk

    Bingo.

    It’s not about ROEs or boarding protocols or how many supervisors you have on hand to observe a chokehold. It’s about the self-conception of police officers. The problem isn’t when soldiers act like police officers; the problem is when police officers act like soldiers.

    Non-compliance may “escalate” a situation, which was the original point of this whole Coast Guard tangent (I think). But seeking to enforce compliance with the threat of violence definitely escalates it further.

    And, for anyone but a cop, meeting less-than-deadly force with deadly force usually gets you in trouble.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 7:16 am

    You people are confusing yourselves.

    I should say, confusing yourselves further, because you guys started out confused apparently.

    Seriously, Leviticus, do you think you are being slippery or clever or lawyerly by being deliberately obtuse? It’s not impressive.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  207. 206. …If we can agree on that, then it just becomes a question of what “sufficiently incompetent” means.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:11 am

    Based upon our exchange so far, the answer to that question is beyond your ability to comprehend.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  208. Leviticus,
    I hope your incentive plan is heavy on incentivizing criminals to cooperate with the police, as that is the primary problem here (other than the rare but tragic situation of the 190 lb kid with a “toy”).
    Otherwise it seems like incentivizing doctors on getting better outcomes in lung cancer treatment in people who smoke. Sure, researchers would love to get famous, drug manufacturers (and their stockholders) like to make money, and practicing doctors like to feel good about saving lives, but the main way to improve lung cancer survival in smokers is for them not to smoke in the first place.

    Seeing what hell someone like Wilson (who has been cleared of wrongdoing) has gone through, as well as the others, how much more incentive do you think officers need to not get into such a situation?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  209. You wish bad things wouldn’t happen, and that is a good desire. Unfortunately, the universe we live in does not work that way.
    The closest thing we have to that is to love God with our all, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. (And that order is very important).
    The best that government can do about that is not get in the way and to discipline the more outrageous examples of “unloving” behavior.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  210. The “incentives” that have been offered to LE are all about making him hesitate while he scrolls through that DM chart of acceptable and non-acceptable outcomes, trying to pick the appropriate one in the micro-seconds available to him/her, before the knife strikes home, or the trigger is pulled by his/her assailant.
    And it is that hesitation that will kill him/her.
    Remember, in a ‘street fight’, the only rule is to not lose.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  211. MD in Philly,

    Do you agree that we can take the Brown situation and the Rice situation as two ends of a spectrum? The officer in Brown’s case legitimately defended himself; the officer in Rice’s case drove up within ten feet of a kid with a gun and shot him without giving him a chance to drop it.

    I’m trying to characterize the two cases in a way you can agree is accurate.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  212. One is reminded of the police force, in Demolition Man, I thought it a satire, but frankly it seems to be a goal,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  213. 160. Why can’t my armed dudes just board your vessel without you escalating the situation by not actively cooperating?

    Whatever happened to that “Molon Labe” sassiness I was growing so fond of?

    Leviticus (7d10dd) — 12/30/2014 @ 10:01 pm

    I just thought I’d dredge this up. You see, Leviticus, I realized the problem. You seem to think the reason the USN can conduct VBSS is that we showed up in a more pimped out, heavily armed yacht than the other guys. Which gives us a swelled head, and makes us think we have the right to go around hassling guys just minding their own business on their own boats.

    No, that’s not it. And neither are the police just another gang, just better organized and equipped.

    But that seems to be lost on you.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  214. 212. MD in Philly,

    Do you agree that we can take the Brown situation and the Rice situation as two ends of a spectrum? The officer in Brown’s case legitimately defended himself; the officer in Rice’s case drove up within ten feet of a kid with a gun and shot him without giving him a chance to drop it.

    I’m trying to characterize the two cases in a way you can agree is accurate.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:25 am

    And if he doesn’t drop it, cowboy, what’s your idea of a competent response? Wing him?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  215. nk (dbc370) — 12/31/2014 @ 8:43 am The Austin cop did what a civilian police officer should do in an urban environment — picked his target and placed his shot carefully.
    And to ensure that, they should, except for backup, be limited to 6 shot revolvers, and these guns that can fire many rounds quickly, either shouldn’t be manfactured or sold, or should carry a several hundred dollar tax.

    (An attacker who wants to kill a lot of people and doesn’t care who he shoots needs a weapon like that, but a defender does not, because he has to aim carefully, unless he is up against an group of armed people or there’s nobody else around nearby but the gunman.)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  216. askeptic, 202. Any S&W K, L, or N frame in .38 or punchier is fine with me.

    nk (dbc370)

  217. In the case of Tamir Rice, he should have first been asked to stop WAVING the gun AROUND, and only then to drop it. (of course being asked from a safe spot) That might have worked better.

    Asking him to drop it is too abrupt, and requires too much too quickly of him.

    If he didn’t stop waving it around, well, that escalates the probability of him being really dangerous.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  218. “Neither are the police just another gang, just better organized and equipped.”

    – Steve57

    What else does their organized abdication of duty in NYC demonstrate?

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  219. Questions developed from the Rice situation:
    What is worse,
    A thug removing the orange (whatever) muzzle attachment that signifies that the “weapon” is a toy; or,
    A thug painting an actual weapon to resemble its toy counterpart?

    And what does a cop do who “chooses poorly” in either case?

    askeptic (efcf22)

  220. red 215. Yes, a very good article, right on the money.

    nk (dbc370)

  221. nk (dbc370) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:32 am

    For those unwilling to develop the skill required for useful deployment of the “Hogleg”, I would recommend the Smith 625 in .45acp – those moon-clips make for speedy reloads.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  222. Police use of deadly force incidents against black suspects are down 75% since 1999. To me this suggests the current hullabaloo, much like the “epidemic” of rape on college campuses, is a false narrative unsupported by facts and created for political opportunism and fanned by the friendly media by those with an alternate agenda. That being said, I am not denying we should be concerned about inappropriate use of deadly force by police or sexual assault on college campuses.

    What I am saying is this follows a familiar pattern of thug government by the Obama Administration and its various allies to force change it wants to see. Foment public outrage, often with false or misleading narratives and then bludgeon or blackmail people into accepting changes you want to see.

    We saw this through the public shaming of Wall St. helping to pass the incredibly intrusive Dodd Frank Bill. We saw it with Obamacare, publicly shaming greedy doctors and insurance companies and then attempting to blackmail states into expanding Medicaid and setting up their own Obamacare exchanges. We have seen it in 2014 in reaction to threats to cut off funding under Title IX for colleges and universities if they don’t respond appropriately to the mythical rape culture. We see it with the DOJ community policing investigations in which cities get strong armed into agreements based on questionable findings from former anti-gun and anti-police activists now employed by the DOJ rather than fight the unlimited resources of the federal government. That’s a tactic perfected by the ACLU obtaining monetary settlements from individual school districts, a place where many of these DOJ hacks previously worked.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  223. Possibly true story by Taddeusz Borowski from “This Way For The Gas, Ladies And Gentlemen”:

    When the trains arrived at Auschwitz, the prisoners would be immediately sorted at the landing. Some for directly to the “showers”, some kept for later. SS officers would also be there to select women for their personal use. One girl fought her “suitor”, grabbed his gun, and shot him in the belly. The guards immediately gunned her down of course. As the Hasenpfefferesser was lying on the ground clutching his belly, he was screaming “My God, My God, what did I do to deserve this horrible fate?”

    Those are the really bad ones. The ones who don’t think they are doing anything wrong as long as they are acting under authority and follow the manual. Like the one in Atlanta who burned the baby’s face off with a flashbang. His chief defended him and his fellow officers who conducted the raid. “They followed procedure.”

    nk (dbc370)

  224. 220. “Neither are the police just another gang, just better organized and equipped.”

    – Steve57

    What else does their organized abdication of duty in NYC demonstrate?

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:33 am

    Dunno, Leviticus. What duties do you imagine we normally assign to street gangs?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  225. #224… true that, daley! Nothing but political manipulation of the minority and radical communities by a POTUS who has no regard for the USA or the citizenry not under his sway.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  226. 224. …What I am saying is this follows a familiar pattern of thug government by the Obama Administration and its various allies to force change it wants to see. Foment public outrage, often with false or misleading narratives and then bludgeon or blackmail people into accepting changes you want to see…

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:43 am

    As Obama told the bankers when he forced them to accept bailouts, he’s the only thing between them and the pitchforks.

    He’s a community organizer. He foments strife. Then he put on his “only adult in the room” act and plays peacemaker. But he needs pitchforks. In this case Al Sharpton is providing him with the pitchforks.

    That’s why Al Sharpton is Obama’s go-to man on race. And I think everyone’s missing the point about Al Sharpton appearing on stage with Obama (and DeBlasio). Obama isn’t being hypocritical when he talks peace when he stands next to a man with blood on his hands from Freddie’s Fashion Mart and Crown Heights, or claims “communities of color” aren’t making things up when he has the Tawana Brawley hoaxter standing next to him.

    He’s flipping the country the bird. They’re running a good cop/bad cop routine on the country and laughing at us as they do it.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  227. 228- Exactly!

    askeptic (efcf22)

  228. Clearly the NYC police have interests other than enforcing the rule of law. I don’t blame them, not at all. I also won’t pretend otherwise.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  229. 220. “Neither are the police just another gang, just better organized and equipped.”

    – Steve57

    What else does their organized abdication of duty in NYC demonstrate?

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:33 am

    Oh, I get it! NYC should just hire the Vice Lords or the Latin Kings to take over the NYPD’s duties. That’s what you’re driving at.

    I mean, one street gang is as good as another. And think how much the city would save hiring non-union labor.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  230. “Those are the really bad ones. The ones who don’t think they are doing anything wrong as long as they are acting under authority and follow the manual.”

    – nk

    Kathryn Johnston comes to mind. Do you think those officers would have been sentenced to prison terms if they had restricted themselves to shooting a 92 year old woman and not gone the extra mile to plant drugs in her house and falsify evidence?

    No knock warrant, she fired first… they should have just admitted that they messed up. Then they could have walked free!

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  231. 230. Clearly the NYC police have interests other than enforcing the rule of law…

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 10:01 am

    And in other late breaking news, doctors in West Africa have interests other than practicing medicine.

    Such as not dying of Ebola.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  232. Kathryn Johnston comes to mind.

    Actually, I was thinking of the boat owner who doesn’t drop his pants and bend over as soon as the nice sailors step on deck.

    nk (dbc370)

  233. 181. nk (dbc370) — 12/31/2014 @ 7:19 am

    Sammy, what do De Blasio and the NYPD have to do with 171% interest auto loans?

    Somebody who used to live in Ferguson, Missori (and moved out because of the bad schools) got one of those types of auto loans. It’s the last of 4 case histories in the article. The reporters had more han 36 to choose from that they could have feautured.

    So we learn or confirm something about Ferguson, Missouri, (that it has got bad schools) plus there’s the interesting fact that the rather unimportant town of Ferguson got mentioned in two different front page stories that had nothing whatsoever to do with Michael Brown or the protests in two major New York based broadsheet newspapers on Friday, December 6, 2014.

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  234. I believe it was discovered that the warrant used on the Johnston raid was not authorized properly, and was a major part of the prosecution of the officers for the subsequent events.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  235. 235- I think you’ll find the NY press doing all they can to divert attention away from what is going on in Metropolis.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  236. what i find amusing is that the same sort of politicians who benefited from unionizing government employees are now reaping unwanted results from their actions.

    who says there isn’t any justice in the world?

    redc1c4 (4db2c8)

  237. John Podhoretz writes today in the New York Post that there were only 3 people killed by New York City police in 2014 as a result of some kind of confrontation:

    1) Eric Garner, whom we all know about.

    2) Akai Gurley, the man killed in a housing project by a startled and frightened probationary police officer on a vertical stairway patrol when he opened a door to a stairwell and heard a noise coming from a completely dark place where the light bulb hadn’t been replaced in maybe months.

    Most of his family did not want anything to do with Al Sharpton, who had arranged with Gurley’s live-in girlfriend (but not wife, therefore someone with no legal authority over the body) to give the eulogy at a funeral that would have taken place before his mother arrived in New York from down south. And he wasn’t contrbuting any money for the funeral or travel or lodgings either. Gurley is occasionally alluded to in protestst but not too much.

    3) Ronald Singleton, who was high on PCP and perished after being forcibly restrained by police.

    This was just four days before Garner. He was 45 years old.

    He began acting erratically in a taxi, the cab driver called police, and police restrained him using a “protective body wrap” (which probably raised his stress level and his blood pressure tremendously) and he went into cardiac arrest and died while they tried to get the taxi to go to a hospital or something like that.

    But Akai Gurley wasn’t really a confrontation. It was a wild shot into the dark by a startled and scared policeman that ricocheted into him and killed him.

    So there’s that, and two people in their 40s put into a medical crisis that resulted in death by having their physical motions restrained by police. Out of mayhbe what – 25 million interactions a year by civilians in New York with police?

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  238. left unsaid by the NYT is what the NYPD are REALLY doing with this slowdown… sstarving the Beast: http://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-execution-of-two-cops/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  239. 237. Nobody called attention to the act Ferguson was mentioned – but I suppose any time Ferguson, Missouri comes up in any kind of story, the reporter puts it in his or her notebook, and it has amuch better than usual chance of making it into the story.

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  240. it’s Gotham, not Metropolis,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  241. I don’t think there’s a real slowdown by ordinary policemen. I think this is all coming from somebody in police hedquarters.

    The 66th precinct in Brooklyn, for instance, now has barricades. This was not a decision made by ordinary policemen. I think there’s real worry and caution.

    Last week, police were getting:

    1) Threats.

    2) False reports of threats by people trying to get other people in trouble.

    3) Disinformation from informers that some organized group was going to attack police.

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  242. Clearly the NYC police have interests other than enforcing the rule of law…

    Clearly some teachers have interests other than educating children……

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  243. “Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

    * Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

    * Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.

    * Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.”

    I dunno, Sammy, looks like a slowdown to me.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  244. I am very amused by the left and some on the right getting the vapors over the rank and file police turning their backs on Comrade Mayor. While I do not know the origin of this practice I know the first time I read about its use was from liberal college students and faculty expressing their displeasure over commencement speakers whom they did not approve.

    Now they get the commencement speakers disinvited in advance through petition campaigns, protests, ranting and raving in the media, etc., etc.

    There must be a long German word involving chickens and roosts that I can’t think of right now.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  245. It’s not a question of equipment. During the hatchet attack in New York, the police fired 19 shots at practically arm’s length range at the attacker and one of the misses hit an innocent bystander down the street. A woman, in the back. In Austin, a police sergeant holding the reins of two horses with one hand fired a single shot from 104 yards away and got the bad guy, armed with two rifles, in the heart. The New York cops were following military ROEs, laying down a barrage like they were in a combat zone. The Austin cop did what a civilian police officer should do in an urban environment — picked his target and placed his shot carefully. Temperament and the right kind of training.

    nk (dbc370) — 12/31/2014 @ 8:43 am

    NK Come on, several officers were reacting to a close range attack, draw and double tap(at least). They would have been acting individually, not in concert. Fear and adrenaline factor in to the close range attack.

    The Austin cop made a miraculous shot for any type of handgun. Personal opinion is that a 100 yd shot is a dumb shot to take unless he was some kind of high level competition shooter and had a solid background. The 25 yd line is difficult enough with a standard issue 4″ or even 6″ barrel revolver. Wonder how far over the suspects head he had to aim?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  246. narciso @242. it’s Gotham, not Metropolis,

    It’s both Gotham and Metropolis.

    Metropolis in the Superman comics (the Daily Planet building was modeled on the old headquaretrs of the New York Daily News on 42nd St) and Gotham City for Batman.

    Now “Gotham” gets used outside of a “Batman” context, I think.

    http://www.nypl.org/blog/2011/01/25/so-why-do-we-call-it-gotham-anyway

    It goes back to Washington Irving and had an earlier non-New York meaning

    Incidentally, I think there is a real city called Metropolis in Greece. Or used to be, back in the time of Socrates. Now not even Wikipedia remembers it.

    Oh it’s in what is now Turkey:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(Anatolia)

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  247. lower number of citations, parking violations and fines results in lower revenue amount.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  248. One problem is that the New York Post is comparing this year to last year, but police have probably been diverted to protest coverage for some time, not just since the murders on December 20.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  249. ==After all, we may not get better lawyers (or police officers) by micromanaging their incentives and behavior; but we may certainly get better outcomes by micromanaging their incentives and behavior.==

    Is “micromanaging” considered a good thing these days? And who is this “we” of whom you speak, Leviticus? Also, who will be doing the micromanagement you seem to crave?
    I ask these questions because in the real life business world which I inhabit, and as is taught in the better business schools, micromanagement is generally considered a highly negative influence and a supervisory practice to be eradicated– not encouraged. In short, micromanagement is a management style whereby a manager very closely observes or controls the work of subordinates or employees. Micromanagement generally has a quite negative connotation especially within a milieu where there is a more professional or licensed class of employee or in a job title with considerable need for independent or creative action (lawyers and police would fall into this category it would seem).

    In business management, micromanagement is an example of poor management where the manager over-manages people unnecessarily. Instead of giving people general instructions and then allowing them to do their job, the micromanager monitors and assesses every step. The manager may be motivated by concern for details. The effect, however, may be to de-motivate employees and create resentment.- en.wikipedia.org

    and,

    “Finally, this supervisor is holding himself back. By continuing to micromanage his staff, he is insuring that they don’t develop. In fact, what he’s doing is hurting the company.” -www.sideroad.com

    Some synonyms for micromanage are: interfere, intervene, nitpick, breathe down somebody’s neck, control, meddle.
    Hmmm. daleyrocks’ #224 suddenly comes to mind as a cautionary tale about micromanagement.

    elissa (afc74d)

  250. Is “micromanaging” considered a good thing these days? And who is this “we” of whom you speak, Leviticus? Also, who will be doing the micromanagement you seem to crave?

    – elissa

    “Micromanage” was DRJ’s word. I would have used a different word, but saw her point and didn’t want to argue about word choice.

    Leviticus (7d10dd)

  251. BTW: would those of you offering up learned suggestions in this thread on how police should be armed/trained kindly offer up your credentials on the matter, so that we might better weigh the value of said suggestions?

    redc1c4 (269d8e)

  252. 242- TowMayTow – TowMahTow!

    askeptic (efcf22)

  253. labcatcher (61737c) — 12/31/2014 @ 10:50 am

    I’m amazed they can hit anything (even the unintended civilian) using a pistol with a 12-lb trigger – though some wag at that link suggested that in the interest of civilian safety, the triggers should be reset to 500-lbs.

    But, holding high at long range?
    I’m sure he had to, but at least he knew how, and how high, which professes to a vital component of marksmanship:
    PRACTICE….PRACTICE….PRACTICE!

    askeptic (efcf22)

  254. redc1c4 (269d8e) — 12/31/2014 @ 11:17 am

    NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol and Rifle.
    NRA Certified Range Master
    USAF Expert Marksman (got the medal).

    askeptic (efcf22)

  255. I think you did not see her point. In fact your rephrase suggests you missed DRJ’s point. Leviticus. Here is what she said and how she used the word “micromanaging” with respect to society:

    “The remedies are sanctions and criminal prosecution, which police already face, the courts are available for civil judgments. The question you’re focusing on is how do we help police avoid misconduct, and I think the answer is the same thing that works with other professions.

    Try using lawyers instead of the police. How do we get better lawyers — by society micromanaging their incentives and behavior, or by law schools, bar associations, and employers providing better rules and training?”

    – DRJ

    Perhaps she’ll address this herself if she feels I misrepresented her comment in any way.

    elissa (afc74d)

  256. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:43 am
    True that, true exactly that.
    As I mentioned before, some of the current protestors are bearing signs that say Revcom(dot)us, the Revolutionary Communist Party

    FWIW, Leviticus, this is where I already spoke about the few similarities and many differences between the 3 cases:
    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/30/2014 @ 5:50 pm

    FWIW anyone, this is where I started discussing the decrease in citations:
    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/30/2014 @ 11:26 am
    (I did a few more posts in the next 12 or so comments after)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  257. 224. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/31/2014 @ 9:43 am

    Police use of deadly force incidents against black suspects are down 75% since 1999. To me this suggests the current hullabaloo, much like the “epidemic” of rape on college campuses, is a false narrative unsupported by facts and created for political opportunism and fanned by the friendly media by those with an alternate agenda. That being said, I am not denying we should be concerned about inappropriate use of deadly force by police or sexual assault on college campuses.

    I’m not sure what the motives are. It might be to save incumbent black politicians from demographic change, by getting the crime rate back up.

    The decline of deadly force incidents against black suspects of 75% since 1999 is probably due in some part to more professional policing, but it is also probablky do to the decline in black suspects.

    Sammy Finkelman (7cd5f4)

  258. “I think you did not see her point. In fact your rephrase suggests you missed DRJ’s point. Leviticus.”

    – elissa

    I would have used the word “structuring” [incentives and behavior] instead of the word “micromanaging” [incentives and behavior]. I think there’s a difference – which we could discuss. That said, I thought DRJ was making the point that we should focus our efforts on training better police officers, rather than focusing our efforts on controlling their behavior through structured incentives.

    If that was her point, I saw it (and pointed out that the two methods were not mutually exclusive). Perhaps it was not her point, in which case I did miss her point.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  259. I said micromanaging because that’s what you’re advocating, Leviticus, as elissa realized because she’s a careful reader. But let’s turn this around to see if your point stands up. How would you “structure” a police force in order to keep the Michael Browns of the world alive? More hot chocolate, perhaps?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  260. In other words, what specific incentives would solve the Michael Brown problem?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  261. I am never a fan of unions.

    That being said, I completely support the NYPD officers who have been thrown under the bus by idiot leftists like De Blasio, Holder, Obama and the elitist pseudointellectuals at the NYT. Like virtually all leftists, De Blasio wants to cry foul when the results of his fellating the PC crowd produces chaos and mayhem that anyone with more intelligence than a syphillitic jackass could have predicted.

    Furthermore, anyone who finds any measure of validity or worth to the despicable, lying, race-baiting, riot-(and murder) inducing, tax evading, huckster filth known as Al Sharpton should refrain from opening their mouths to reveal their ignorance. Any politician who would allow someone as inherently deceitful as Sharpton to be anything but shunned at great distance deserves no respect whatsoever.

    I hope the NYPD continues to stop the flow of additional dollars to NYC from fines and tickets until the socialist buffoon De Blasio resigns in the dripping disgrace he absolutely deserves.

    Pete (435606)

  262. Or if that problem is too tough, what specific incentives would solve the Eric Garner problem — a multiple offender who decides he won’t be arrested again? Hot chocolate might actually work there, but you’re going to need a lot more police officers and a bigger budget for incidentals.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  263. “How would you “structure” a police force in order to keep the Michael Browns of the world alive? More hot chocolate, perhaps?”

    – DRJ

    For starters, I would institute a policy that states, as a bright-line rule, that if you kill a person who isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, you can no longer be a police officer.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  264. So you want incentives to keep people from being police officers?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  265. Your incentive would have kept Michael Brown alive. What would it do for Darren Wilson?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  266. By the way, aren’t you simply adopting my policy of “pick police well, give them clear guidelines, train them to respond, and then let them respond” … except you primarily want to rely on the bolded portion?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  267. “Your incentive would have kept Michael Brown alive. What would it do for Darren Wilson?”

    – DRJ

    I don’t know. Did he have a Taser?

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  268. “By the way, aren’t you simply adopting my policy of “pick police well, give them clear guidelines, train them to respond, and then let them respond” … except you primarily want to rely on the bolded portion?”

    – DRJ

    Very possibly. I would say that clear guidelines, coupled with clear punishments for non-compliance and clear incentives for compliance, constitute an incentive structure.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  269. You’d let your officers use a taser against an unarmed man? Tasers kill people, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  270. So, you would not differentiate between Homicide, Manslaughter, and a common traffic accident, and all the gradients in between?
    That’s not being very lawyerly – more like the blanket condemnation of the Greeks by the President of UVa.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  271. Here’s a funny commentary on the situation in NYC.
    H/T Insty.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  272. I knew you were going to say that. I almost rephrased to “firearm” to save time, but didn’t. You’re right. Tasers do kill people, too.

    A) I can appreciate police officers at least attempting to use apparent non-lethal force on unarmed suspects, for starters.

    B) If Tasers are ineffective as a means of non-lethal incapacitation, lets get cracking on some more reliable non-lethal weapons. It’s a market economy; if we don’t have an effective non-lethal weapon, it’s because there is insufficient demand, which is a cultural indictment in and of itself.

    C) Given the well-documented abuse of Tasers by APD, I am ok with maintaining the bright-line rule for those deaths by Taser that occasionally result.

    D) I would also be okay with an exception to the bright-line rule where apparent non-lethal force (like a Taser) causes an unanticipated death.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  273. “So, you would not differentiate between Homicide, Manslaughter, and a common traffic accident, and all the gradients in between?”

    – askeptic

    Also a good point! For instance, a police officer in a high speed pursuit ends up in a car accident where an unarmed passenger dies.

    Let’s refine the rule further:

    “If a police officers uses a deadly weapon against a person, and kills the person, and the person isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, that police officer can no longer be a police officer.”

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  274. What I’m getting at, and what DRJ has pointed out, is that lack of clarity in departmental guidelines understandably disincentivizes compliance with those guidelines. There are pros and cons to vague guidelines and bright line rules. I’m arguing for a move away from fuzzy guidelines like “reasonable use of force” and toward bright line rules like “If a police officers uses a deadly weapon against a person, and kills the person, and the person isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, that police officer can no longer be a police officer.”

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  275. Some deaths are inevitable but the police will stop taking chances under your rules — so it will be like today’s NYPD all the time, all over the nation. Minimal enforcement makes libertarians happy and restricting revenue sources makes the Instapundit happy, but I’m not happy at the thought of police whose main interest is protecting themselves. We’ll have that kind of police with your incentives that won’t let them protect themselves unless they can prove, in advance, that there is a weapon pointed at them.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  276. But we can call them Bobbies and give them nice batons and hats. That could make us feel a little better.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  277. I pointed out lack of clarity in police guidelines? Please refresh my recollection because I don’t remember doing that. My point was that clear guidelines are important, and I suspect many police forces have clear guidelines. You just don’t like the guidelines they have.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  278. Also, they might not kill as many unarmed people. Let’s not forget about that.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  279. “I pointed out lack of clarity in police guidelines?”

    – DRJ

    No, you pointed out that my primary interest seemed to be in clear guidelines. Sorry, my phrasing was ambiguous.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  280. Do you really think police departments have never thought of the policies you are announcing? They deal with these issues all the time, and so do the various federal, state and local governments.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  281. Do you want to compare British and US crime statistics, DRJ? Since you have a low opinion of Bobbies?

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  282. 280.Also, they might not kill as many unarmed people. Let’s not forget about that.

    Yes, and more police might get killed. Let’s not forget about that, either. I understand your concern for innocent victims. What I don’t understand is your callousness toward the police.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  283. UK vs. US Crime Statistics.

    Of course, this starts another discussion that no one wants to have.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  284. I don’t have a low opinion of Bobbies. I have a low opinion of the government that refuses to arm them, but it’s part of their tradition and I also respect their right to do things the way they want.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  285. 265. For starters, I would institute a policy that states, as a bright-line rule, that if you kill a person who isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, you can no longer be a police officer.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 1:15 pm

    In other words you’d make your policies in willful ignorance of reality.

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls

    Murder Victims

    by Weapon, 2008–2012

    Rifles 380 351 367 332 322
    Shotguns 442 423 366 362 303

    Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1 875 817 769 751 678

    Every year between 2008 and 2012 more people were killed with the deadly weapons of hands, fist, feet, etc., than rifles and shotguns combined. Not “assault rifles” and “steetsweepers.” All types of rifles and shotguns.

    Did Eric Garner have hands, fists, and feet, Leviticus? Then he was armed with deadly weapons.

    It’s a good thing El Paso Police Officer Jonathan Molina didn’t shoot “unarmed teenager” Juan Antonio Gonzalez because in your world that would be a firing offense.

    But then Officer Molina doesn’t have to worry about getting a pink slip now.

    http://www.ktsm.com/news/court-dates-set-teen-accused-beating-officer-death

    El Paso — The teenager accused of beating an El Paso Police Officer to death will be in a district court in 2014.

    State and Defense attorneys met Thursday morning to set 17-year-old Juan Antonio Gonzalez’s court dates. Status Conferences will be scheduled every other month starting next year. Gonzalez’s jury selection is scheduled to take place in January 2014.

    Police say Gonzalez and Officer Jonathan Molina were involved in an altercation leading to the officer’s death in September of this year.

    Gonzalez is facing capital murder charges and if convicted, the teenage defendant could be in prison for a lifetime…

    So after Gonzalez got the jump on Molina, after he holstered his weapon, if Molina had managed to unholster his gun shortly before Gonzalez, armed with only the deadly weapons that murder more people than rifles and shotguns combined, put him in a coma you’d have fired him for saving his life?

    I am honestly sick and tired of know-nothings like you, who as I pointed out practically preen about your ignorance of the real world, think you should be setting the rules for anything except a pre-school class. And then only under the close supervision of a licensed professional.

    Again bravo, Leviticus. If I tried to write a parody of liberal speaking complete BS while convincing himself he’s speaking sense on this issue I couldn’t have done a better job.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  286. “Yes, and more police might get killed. Let’s not forget about that, either. I understand your concern for innocent victims. What I don’t understand is your callousness toward the police.”

    – DRJ

    I’m not trying to be callous toward the police.

    How about gun control? There’s a great way to reduce police deaths, without necessitating police shootings of citizens.

    I’m actually pretty far from a gun-control advocate; but I think conversation begs that question.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  287. “I am honestly sick and tired of know-nothings like you, who as I pointed out practically preen about your ignorance of the real world, think you should be setting the rules for anything except a pre-school class. And then only under the close supervision of a licensed professional.”

    – Steve57

    Don’t talk to me, if you don’t think it’s productive. I disagree with you – deal with it.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  288. I don’t want to have that discussion but feel free. However, I assume you realize that Great Britain has armed police that respond to incidents involving weapons and crimes. Perhaps the small scale of the British Isles makes that kind of specialization more feasible than here in the U.S.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  289. Nice of you to leave handguns off that list, by the way, Steve.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  290. No, you’re right. We disagree and it’s fruitless to keep talking. I’ll just deal with it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  291. For starters, I would institute a policy that states, as a bright-line rule, that if you kill a person who isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, you can no longer be a police officer.
    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 1:15 pm

    Exhibits A-ZZZ that this discussion has had zero impact on Leviticus.
    Second, I would have been against my son joining the police.

    I think it’s time that we enjoy furthering each others knowledge base as we desire, and not bother trying to have an intelligent discussion with (most) of those with dissenting views.

    Seriously, if after all that’s been said, Leviticus, you still think Wilson is not worthy of being a police officer, talking with you more than 10 minutes is a waste of my time.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  292. Oh, Gonzalez was convicted.

    You clearly didn’t learn anything in law school, Leviticus. Self defense law concerns itself with the lawful use of deadly force. It says nothing about being unarmed or armed.

    But, again, in your all-knowing inexperience that doesn’t matter to you, does it?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  293. I can easily deal with not wasting my time.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  294. 291. Nice of you to leave handguns off that list, by the way, Steve.

    Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/31/2014 @ 2:11 pm

    Yeah, I was trying to slip something by you, Leviticus. I also left knives off the list. That one got past you, though.

    Again, do you think you’re being clever by being so obviously and willfully obtuse?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  295. 295. I can easily deal with not wasting my time.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/31/2014 @ 2:14 pm

    I don’t think we wasted our time, doc. We’ve allowed Leviticus to demonstrate that the people who want to micromanage the police are the last people who should be allowed to micromanage anything.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  296. After seeing the times that Leviticus has requested going over old ground and cherry picking what he responds to, on reflection I’m thinking wasting my and our time and yanking chains is what he is about, not good-faith discussion.
    YMMV

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  297. Some people want to compete on the basketball court or the golf course, and lawyers like to compete with discussion. I like to do it, too, but it must be in good faith. That means being willing to understand the other person’s argument and restate it in a way that s/he could agree with. I don’t think Leviticus is interested in that kind of discussion.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  298. But we already knew that, Steve57.

    If I have learned anything it is that even someone who appears to be a liberal in search of good-faith discussion probably isn’t.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  299. Leviticus caught me red handed, leaving hand guns off my list. I confess.

    Here’s a list of the other weapons I attempted to conceal from the public, and would have gotten away with if Leviticus wasn’t playing three-dimensional chess while I was only playing checkers.

    Knives or cutting instruments
    Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.)
    Poison
    Explosives
    Fire
    Narcotics
    Drowning
    Strangulation
    Asphyxiation

    I thought I had covered my tracks. I mean, it’s not like I provided a link to a source or anything.

    How’d you do it, Leviticus? How’d you see through my ruse?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  300. it’s called New Mexican coyotesense, Esteban Cinquenta y siete!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  301. 300. But we already knew that, Steve57.

    If I have learned anything it is that even someone who appears to be a liberal in search of good-faith discussion probably isn’t.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/31/2014 @ 2:23 pm

    Some lessons, like skills, need to be maintained through periodic refresher training.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  302. I like to compete in discussion too, likewise if it is a good-faith dialogue trying to clarify points of agreement and disagreement and understanding the underlying reasoning.

    Leviticus, when you get to be mayor of your city with tickets for crimes and no force used against an unarmed person* please let us know and give us the location.

    * if you have a zero tolerance for situations escalating, you need to have no situations at all to begin with. Deal with it yourself.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  303. Gracias, coronello, por la informacion!

    Steve57 (98542d)

  304. “That means being willing to understand the other person’s argument and restate it in a way that s/he could agree with. I don’t think Leviticus is interested in that kind of discussion.”

    – Leviticus

    That is exactly the kind of discussion I’m interested in, with you. I can understand if you don’t believe me when I say that. But it is close to impossible to carry on three simultaneous conversations with three people with different opinions and different motives, and produce answers demonstrating an understanding of each other person’s argument stated in a what that he or she can agree with.

    Anyway, you have my email if you actually want to have that discussion on this topic.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  305. Well, Steve57, please remind me next time so my refresher course doesn’t take so long, thanks.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  306. MD, Steve, don’t pull a muscle patting yourselves on the back too hard.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  307. I can’t pat myself on the back, Leviticus, I’m holding a slice of sourdough with crab dip on it.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  308. But it’s celebratory crab dip, if that makes you feel better.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  309. Leviticus, I have a very hard time not believing that you aren’t either very dense or very dishonest. You are at your original point, thinking that there is no possible way that a police officer can justifiably shoot (with intention to stop an assailant, likely by death) an “unarmed” person. If you were really interested in an honest discussion you could have just told us that you were still of that position. No reason to even bring up Garner.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  310. I’m not patting myself on the back, I’m regretting how much time I spent responding to you, so this is the last.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  311. Our discussion, if we have one, should be online since it started that way. In my next comment, I will state your position the best I can. I hope you will try to state my position as your next comment.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  312. Leviticus’ position is: “If a police officers uses a deadly weapon against a person, and kills the person, and the person isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, that police officer can no longer be a police officer.”

    I think Leviticus believes the danger posed to citizens by police officers is too great to allow the police to respond with deadly force, unless the officer is faced with a person aiming a gun at the officer and there is no way to retreat or take cover. Instead, the police should look for other ways to deal with citizens — starting with no force (negotiation) and escalating as needed to the use of tasers. There should be clear policies requiring this approach by police officers, and it should be enforced consistently for the protection of all citizens.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  313. Prancing to teh tune of his Robotic Coyote Overlords…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  314. I request that you state my position on the issue presented in my last comment, i.e., Should police officer’s be able to use a deadly weapon against an unarmed person? MD in Philly has discussed this with you at length, so feel free to restate his argument instead. It might be easier since you and I went off on a few tangents from that issue.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  315. You’re doing better than me, Steve57. I am not celebrating. Right now –at this moment– I am doing emergency laundry. At about the time I read your post about your crab dip I was holding a crispy thin slice of french bread plastered with a healthy dose of fresh hot out of the oven Artichoke Parmesan spread. I wanted to “test it” to be sure it was good enough to serve guests tonight. Then, before it even got to my mouth the artichoke spread just slid right off the bread in a glob and down the front of both my shirt and pants. I hope this is not a sign about the upcoming year. If any lawyers are reading this do I need to post a warning to guests about the slippery dip? Or would that be micromanaging?

    elissa (afc74d)

  316. 315. Prancing to teh tune of his Robotic Coyote Overlords…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/31/2014 @ 2:58 pm

    Not me, coronello, I’ve transitioned to feasting on my tasty crustacean underlings.

    No, not Leviticus.

    I mean the crab dip. And later the seafood salad.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  317. I dunno if that would be micromanaging, elissa, but you better not point that Artichoke Parmesan spread at anyone unless they’re similarly armed.

    Not if you know what’s good for you.

    Steve57 (98542d)

  318. I shouldn’t do this because the point of this exercise is to make us look at other points of view, but I need to go do New Year’s Eve stuff. So I’ll leave you with my position:

    I believe the police should be able to respond to armed and unarmed threats with deadly force when, in the officer’s reasonable opinion, deadly force is necessary for their protection or the protection of others. (We’ll reserve whether it can be used for protect property for another time.) Police officers are trained to deal with threats from armed and unarmed citizens. Sometimes police make mistakes because they’re human. However, instead of a rule that requires officers to guess whether someone is armed, I think the better solution is to enhance training of police officers — especially in the use of firearms, firearm alternatives, and their use in realistic training situations.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  319. A warning would be fine or you could make aprons/bibs available for anyone who tastes the dip. Appropriately themed, of course.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  320. FACT: Unarmed suspects fleeing the police or resisting arrest never present any danger to themselves or others warranting the use of force of any kind.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  321. Unarmed suspects fleeing the police or resisting arrest never present any danger to themselves *unless* they’re eating treacherous artichoke parmesan spread.

    But you knew this Mr. daley, deep down.

    happyfeet (831175)

  322. FACT: Properly trained police officers are always able to discern whether a suspect fleeing police or resisting arrest is armed even if no deadly weapon is immediately visible and the suspect is making suspicious moves which indicate he/she could be reaching for a deadly weapon before making a split second decision to escalate the use of force.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  323. That artichoke parmesan spread puts the wind beneath my sheets Mr. Feets.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  324. I do cook a nice baked artichoke parmesan cherry tomato chicken you should try sometime Feets.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  325. that sounds advanced but I’ve gotten a lot more comfortable with chicken the past year or so

    happyfeet (831175)

  326. That’s exactly why I make it a point to never make artichoke parmesan anything.
    And no other reason.
    It has nothing to do with the fact that I leave the room when my wife and child get the Parmesan cheese out to put on the ‘sgetti.
    If I like my ‘sgetti without Parmesan, I can have my ‘sgetti without Parmesan.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  327. 321. A warning would be fine or you could make aprons/bibs available for anyone who tastes the dip. Appropriately themed, of course.

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/31/2014 @ 3:15 pm

    Howzabout if the protective apparel had, “Arty choked ‘I can’t breath!’ emblazoned on them?

    Steve57 (98542d)

  328. MD in Philly – I put shredded sharp cheddar on my sgetti mostly these days or meskin blend.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  329. daley, you blaspheme!

    Steve57 (98542d)

  330. Sometimes you people absolutely baffle me. And here I thought Leviticus would be the biggest mystery and challenge today.

    elissa (afc74d)

  331. I’ll remember the meskin blend, daley.

    elissa, you have no idea,
    that’s why our host refuses to do “open thread” anymore, he’s afraid it will be the last straw and they will slap an equal access rule onto bloggers.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  332. Unarmed suspects fleeing the police or resisting arrest never present any danger to themselves or others warranting the use of force of any kind.As a potential future innocent bystander, I seriously beg to differ. In that situation, I expect the police officers to operate on the assumption that the fleeing suspect – by virtue of his *choice* to run and by default, escalate the situation, is a danger to not only the police but those around, and act accordingly.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  333. When you post your warning to guests, elissa, I suggest wording other than “slippery dip” That just sounds, so, well you know.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  334. “Our discussion, if we have one, should be online since it started that way. In my next comment, I will state your position the best I can. I hope you will try to state my position as your next comment.”

    – DRJ

    I’m sorry I didn’t see this request before you stated your own position. I would have given it a shot.

    You stated my position accurately when you quoted me at 314, and stated your position clearly at 320.

    I appreciate both. Wherever you want to go next with this discussion, I will gladly participate – but it’ll have to be tomorrow morning. New Year’s activities are ratcheting up.

    And Happy New Year, on that note.

    Leviticus (7d10dd)

  335. Leviticus, first, Happy New Year, health and happiness.

    Second, the British? Dude, John Chisum would slap you (he never carried a gun, BTW). If we wanted to live like the vitamin-deficient denizens of that cold little island we’d be living on that cold little island.

    nk (dbc370)

  336. In other words, what specific incentives would solve the Michael Brown problem?

    telling young males that a life of crime and/or attacking police officers will like as not get them killed?

    or is that too obvious to e acceptable?

    redc1c4 (6d1848)

  337. Off topic, but hello and happy New Year to nk and daley and the colonel. If I had your e-mails, I would send you our “holiday card,” as I have for Patrick, JD, and MD. So please accept my very best wishes, despite the subject matter of the thread (I would never trivialize shootings).

    Simon Jester (0f95a2)

  338. Happy New Year, Simon. daleyrocks has my email. I’m leery to post it online having been hacked once.

    nk (dbc370)

  339. Oh, and I sent greetings to DRJ in an e-mail, and wish elissa and Dana the very best as well.

    Simon Jester (0f95a2)

  340. No big deal, nk. Best wishes.

    Simon Jester (0f95a2)

  341. Happy New Year Simon and all!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  342. Mayor de Blasio, who arrived late to the meeting, said in a statement:

    102. 106. 108 etc

    According to yesterday’s (Dec 31) New York Daily News, this is not correct. Mayor de Blasio arrived seven minutes early to that meeting with police union chiefs, but hey arrived even earlier than he did.

    He came alone, without aides or his wife, on advice of Police Commissioner Bill Bratton.

    He wanted to say how much he was for police, saying that anyone who attacked a policeman should be prosecuted, but he refused to apologize for what he said about the Garner case or his association with Al Sharpton.

    The meeting was dexcribed as occasionally confrontational, mostly businesslike but not collegial, and nobody said anytghing afterwards except for issuing a prepared statement by the mayor..

    Before the meeting was arranged, de Blasio had prepared to set up a meeting woth other unions.

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  343. Leviticus’ position is: “If a police officers uses a deadly weapon against a person, and kills the person, and the person isn’t armed with a deadly weapon, that police officer can no longer be a police officer.”

    I think Leviticus believes the danger posed to citizens by police officers is too great to allow the police to respond with deadly force, unless the officer is faced with a person aiming a gun at the officer and there is no way to retreat or take cover. Instead, the police should look for other ways to deal with citizens — starting with no force (negotiation) and escalating as needed to the use of tasers. There should be clear policies requiring this approach by police officers, and it should be enforced consistently for the protection of all citizens.

    DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/31/2014 @ 2:57 pm

    Since they weren’t trying to kill Garner, that has no relevance to this discussion.

    I think his general position is to concoct some ad hoc “rule” for each situation, which makes the police out to have been wrong. In this instance they were supposed to allow him to run away and then try and catch him again, rather than subdue him.

    His loony theory would require that if some huge man starts beating on the officer and trying to grab his gun when he’s trying to arrest him, the officer should run away, if I’m understanding it correctly. Thus huge men would be kind of exempt from arrest.

    Negotiate?? Negotiate what exactly?

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  344. 159. Re: the “Apalled”

    The ‘commentariat’ is well represented by those willing to patiently parent enduring disrespect and rebeiiious tantrums without losing their cool. Good for them, they bless us with their burden borne.

    Fewer in our number are those, e.g., askeptic and Mr. 57, who do so without sparing the rod.

    Everyone wants to be the good cop. If that is your gift and your commission you are a grateful servant to fulfill that role.

    God, in His inscrutable Wisdom has gifted me with discernment between spirits and I wear the mantle He has laid on me.

    QED, you suck.

    DNF (e46777)

  345. 317. Why emergency laundry?

    Is it

    A) If this is not done right away the shirt and pants will be spoiled.

    B) The shirt and pants will not be spoiled, but your heart was set on wearing them.

    C) It’s the quickest way of undoing the mistake, and undoing a mistake is very satisfying.

    D) There were no substitutes available at the location you were at.

    E) That was just about the last clean and washed clothing you had.

    F) There’s extra time, and why not spend it that way?

    Are there some other choices?

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  346. Leviticus,

    This is off-topic, but three cheers for the University of New Mexico!

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  347. 350. Nice catch. I used to frequent WUWT until Lord of the Flies’ accession.

    The oceans contain 50,000 times the CO2 that of the atmosphere, most of it carbonates of calcium and magnesium on the floor.

    Close inspection of the Mauna Loa “data” reveals atmospheric CO2 fluctuating 40ppm diurnally according to Hansen’s Law–the solubility of CO2 in water is inversely proportional to temperature.

    HS chemistry.

    DNF (1eebbb)

  348. 52. A fine example of adolescent, arrested moral development masquerading as persistent concern.

    Better than you.

    DNF (1eebbb)

  349. Ocean acidification is supposed to be damaging coral reefs.

    http://oceana.org/en/our-work/climate-energy/ocean-acidification/learn-act/effect-of-ocean-acidification-on-corals

    I see in this article there’s no statement that anybody actually related any shrinkage in coral reefs to carbon dioxide levels in the water – or measured them.

    It’s just:

    A recent study expressed a 14% decrease in coral growth in the Great Barrier Reef Australia since 1990, the most significant decrease in coral growth in the last 400 years.

    The key factor, according to this, is “aragonite saturation” which is nto explained.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  350. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/30/373985338/report-number-of-police-officers-killed-spikes-in-2014

    …reversing a long term declien (although this long term decliend reversed a couple of other times before)

    It is still about half of what it was in the year 2000, which also witnessed a spike.

    This is probably related to the general crime rate, but I wonder if any of these spikes are artifacts of changes in reporting. Or is that spike in 2001, and represents September 11th?

    This is the original source that NPR used:

    http://www.nleomf.org/facts/research-bulletins/

    http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/Preliminary-2014-Officer-Fatalities-Report.pdf

    There seems to be a spike starting in September, except that March and May were higher.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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