Patterico's Pontifications

12/24/2014

Another Police Shooting In Missouri

Filed under: General — Dana @ 7:25 am



[guest post by Dana]

When a suspect pulled out a gun and pointed it at him, a Berkeley police officer fired at least three shots in return killing the 18-yeard old black male named Antonio Martin. This just two miles from Ferguson:

Police Chief Jon Belmar said the officer was doing a business check at a Mobil on the run station about 11:15 p.m. Tuesday when the shooting happened.

The officer saw two people on the parking lot in the 6800 block of North Hanley Road and began talking with them.

Belmar said one of the people approached the driver’s side of the vehicle.

One of the individuals “produced a pistol with his arm straight out, pointing it straight at the officer kind of from across the hood,” Belmar said.

At that point, the chief said, the officer got his service revolver “and fired what we think is three shots.”

The officer, who is 34 and white, is a 6-year veteran of the department, Belmar said. He was placed on investigative leave, which is standard.

Belmar said one round struck the suspect, an 18-year-old black male, and one struck a tire of the police car. Police said they did not immediately know where the third round went.

The suspect was known to police and had a lengthy record, including multiple charges of assault, armed robbery, armed criminal action and multiple uses of weapons since he was 17.

Further, according to Belmar:

“He also said the 9 mm gun found on the suspect had five rounds in the chamber and one round in the magazine. He also said the gun’s serial number had been filed off.”

A crowd of 200-300 protesters quickly gathered and began yelling at police, throwing bricks at them, and setting off fire works. Several protesters were handcuffed and led away.

Belmar also addressed the officer’s decision to use his service revolver:

As to suggestions that the officer should have used a Taser instead of his gun, Belmar said: “Frankly that’s unreasonable.”

The suspect could have complied with the officer, but “bad choices were made” by him instead, Belmar said.

It should be noted that the officer was not wearing his department issued body camera and the car’s dash-camera was not turned on.

Protesters are claiming that a “throw down weapon” was conveniently placed at the scene.

Video of Martin drawing his gun and pointing it:

–Dana

120 Responses to “Another Police Shooting In Missouri”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  2. Boy, that was some gun with a five round chamber. Ignorant reporters again.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  3. Hopefully there is a security camera that catches it, or/and some witnesses that will discreetly go to the police and tell the truth.
    I wonder if he thought the police officer would be hesitant to use his gun, or that in the event he shot the officer the argument would be made he did it in self defense, knowing how the police shoot down innocent black men (I’m not saying that it is an argument with legal merit, but one that would get support from some quarters, maybe even from Holder and Obama.)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  4. Was that video there from the beginning and I missed it, or was it added?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  5. I added it. It didn’t “take” when I first posted.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  6. This case is no good for Al Sharpton or the protesters – the person killed had a (real) gun, and there’s usually no attempt to deny that when that is the case.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  7. maybe this has something to do with it:

    http://dailysignal.com/2014/12/22/exclusive-taxpayers-fund-legal-group-role-rap-video-killing-police-officers/

    when the government is actually funding the incitement against police officers,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  8. 3
    Pointing a gun at an LEO suggests a lack of forethought to a degree precluding the ability to think up the sort of excuse you suggest.
    No doubt the claim about the gun comes from two things: the only way this can be made to come out against the police is to prove an outright lie by the officer, and a recent instance in NYC in which two NYPDs apparently planted guns to justify fraudulent arrests.

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  9. I heard on the radio and read a news report with Brown’s mother claimingthat her son was was with his girlfriend at the convenience store. She accuses the police: “They started shooting.” She (and protesters) claim her son did not have a gun. One protester shouted: “You drop four bodies, I’m giving you four seasons of protest,” a woman was heard shouting at a police officer.”

    Dana (8e74ce)

  10. “Service revolver”? “five rounds in the chamber and one round in the magazine”? Either chief Belmar is insane or he’s grossly misquoted.

    Bob (967659)

  11. it’s kind of amusing how Volodya’s Wurlitzer picks up the story

    narciso (ee1f88)

  12. Advocating the killing of police officers now:

    RbG BlackRebels
    ‏@RbGBlackRebels2
    For every one of us they take out we gotta take one of them out.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  13. “Service revolver”? “five rounds in the chamber and one round in the magazine”? Either chief Belmar is insane or he’s grossly misquoted.

    Bob (967659) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:54 am

    Reporters not having a clue about the subject about which they are reporting on? Bite your tongue.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  14. They said in 2012 if I didn’t vote for BO, that I would see race riots in this country. They were right.

    Overuse of the meme aside, this is pretty unpleasant folks. Wonder if my parents thought the same during the Vietnam protest era? At least that wasn’t (or didn’t seem to me to be) racially or anarchy-motivated. Feels like the whole Occupy movement was just a precursor, and whoever orchestrated that (getting a bunch of dumb impressionable over-educated under-practical kids involved) is doing the same thing to the whole ‘civil rights’ movement, spinning up yet another army of useful idiots with grievances to do their bidding.

    I now denounce myself. Surely I’m just as ‘useful’ an ‘idiot’ but for a totally different master. Sigh.

    rtrski (2e2489)

  15. 18 year old black male, with a previous rap sheet, pulls a gun on a police officer, and things go badly for him.

    His mother is distraught, of course, that he innocent baby boy, was killed by a police officer on whom he had pointed a gun! Maybe, just maybe, if she had bought him up properly, he wouldn’t have a prior record, and maybe he wouldn’t have pointed a gun at a police officer, and maybe he’d be at home for Christmas.

    You have no idea just how little sympathy I have for grieving parents whose kids are dead because the parents did a rotten job of child rearing.

    The cold-hearted Dana (1b79fa)

  16. The suspect was an 18-year old black male named Antonio Martin who was known to police and had a lengthy record, including multiple charges of assault, armed robbery, armed criminal action and multiple uses of weapons since he was 17.

    That’s quite an extensive record of crimes involving guns, what happened to 3 strikes and you’re out?

    ropelight (af10b4)

  17. How in the world are the Berkeley stories being written without the word “teen” appearing over and over and over?

    Bob (967659)

  18. rtrski- Actually, a lot of the core of the anti-war movement were anarchists who managed to drum up a lot of sympathy from “make love not war college types” who might have felt guilty about avoiding the draft.
    There is a documentary called The War at Home about Madison Wisconsin during that period (a documentary made in the late 70’s, not one of a few other movies or tv shows by that name).
    After the bombing on the Madison campus in 1970 the hard cores were all excited, thinking that the time for revolution had come. They felt betrayed when the crowds stopped coming out, because the crowds were into “making love, not war”, and not into committing violence themselves.
    I think that experience was part of the backdrop for Rules for Radicals.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  19. There is a lot of bad parenting out there. On occasion (hopefully infrequently) I’ve done some myself.

    But I’m sure there are some loving parents who have tried very hard, even if it was only one, or a grandparent, who grieve at what has happened that they fought against for years.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  20. Dana (8e74ce) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:53 am

    She (and protesters) claim her son did not have a gun.

    I stand corrected, somewhat.

    The denial won’t fly, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  21. Dana,

    In your video who is the guy on the left of the police car pointing the gun?
    Is that the cop or the dead guy?

    steveg (794291)

  22. Greetings:

    That must have been a pretty gunsmithy perp. To get five rounds into the chamber is no easy task. Usually, at least on my planet, one round is all a chamber will take. As to the Police Chief, well, he doesn’t really to know too much about guns, right ???

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  23. I think the fellow to the left of the police car lifting his arm and pointing a firearm is the dead guy.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  24. My son’s comment was, “that’s a pretty awesome weapon”.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  25. Several commenters here have correctly mentioned the absurdity of “5 rounds in the chamber”. If any reporters are reading and desire an accessible analogy, “5 rounds in the chamber” is roughly equivalent to 5 drivers in the driver’s seat and one passenger.

    LTMG (b07228)

  26. The light at the end of his rope wrote:

    That’s quite an extensive record of crimes involving guns, what happened to 3 strikes and you’re out?

    Oh, we’ll find out, soon enough, that he had charged dismissed or was allowed to plead down to petty crimes and get off with an unpaid fine or “community service” or some other Philadelphia-style catch-and-release law enforcement.

    Or it could be that “three strikes and you’re out” really means three strikes and you’re still out on the streets. :(

    What the oh-so-kind-hearted left don’t understand, refuse to understand, is that by being so kind and forgiving, they helped kill Antonio Martin! If he had been where he should have been, sitting in jail, he’d still miss Christmas at home, but he’d also be alive on Christmas.

    The unforgiving Dana (1b79fa)

  27. The mayor of Berkely commented on the shooting and said it’s unfair to compare this shooting to Ferguson:

    He noted that surveillance footage shows the Berkeley 18-year-old pointed a gun at the officer who shot him. Also, Ferguson has a largely white police force, but the majority of police officers in Berkeley are black.


    His latter justification is troubling. It seems to assume that because the police force in Ferguson is predominantly white that the negative accusations then must be true, but that in the Berkeley case, because the force is predominantly black – and albeit, the officer involved in this shooting is white – that it then would indicate that things without a possibility of racism. Either assumption does a disservice to those officers who simply do their jobs the best they can without color being an issue in their decision making.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  28. I saw a clip from one of the New York City protests, with a professionally printed sign demanding the end to “Broken Windows” policing.

    And that is what the protesters really want: a law enforcement regime which ignores the petty crimes, and doesn’t really take notice of the thugs until they become big-time thugs.

    Rudi Giuliani helped to clean up New York City with a broken windows policy, with one which was tough on the small-time punks before they became big-time felons, and the protesters apparently think that’s a bad thing. I guess that they’d rather have NYC become Chicago or Philadelphia, or revert back to what it was in the 1970s.

    The Dana who lives in the real world (1b79fa)

  29. I’m confused. Brown = Martin?

    SarahW (267b14)

  30. “Video of Brown drawing his gun and pointing it” should read “Video of Martin drawing his gun and pointing it”

    Jeff Hall (4e23a4)

  31. Thanks, SarahW and Jeff Hall, correction made.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  32. why doesn’t the quote marks re Belmar, start from the beginning, it makes one thinking they are paraphrasing

    narciso (ee1f88)

  33. “He also said the 9 mm gun found on the suspect had five rounds in the chamber and one round in the magazine. He also said the gun’s serial number had been filed off.”

    Um, there isn’t room for five rounds in the chamber… Maybe 5 rounds in the magazine and one in th chamber?

    Steven Den Beste (99cfa1)

  34. Here is St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar at the press conference. Scroll down to the bottom.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  35. Maybe 5 rounds in the room (chamber) and one in a periodical he was reading. Just trying to help…

    Gazzer (c44509)

  36. i’m a eat dylan’s ny cheesecake milk chockit bark in protest

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  37. Walking down the road
    With a pistol in your waist
    Johnny you’re too bad
    Walking down the road
    With your ratchet in your waist
    Johnny you’re too bad
    You’re just robbing and you’re stabbing and you’re looting and you’re shooting
    Ya know you’re too bad
    You’re just robbing and you’re stabbing and you’re looting and you’re shooting
    And now you’re too dead

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. Johnny needs to clean up his act

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  39. What’s wrong with “fully loaded weapon”?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  40. Another racist murderous cop
    #AllLivesMatter

    JD (86a5eb)

  41. just in time for your last minuted holiday looting!

    Kwanza gifts for everyone in the hood!

    redc1c4 (589173)

  42. “The suspect was known to police and had a lengthy record, including multiple charges of assault, armed robbery, armed criminal action and multiple uses of weapons since he was 17.”

    There was a time when such a list of crimes would have already earned him the death penalty. Now, in our Kinder and Gentler Progressive Era, a thug becomes a martyr.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  43. Black community should form black armed militia(militias are in the constitution 2 amendment) to follow white police officers in their cars to protect black children from being shot. 54% of blacks now support buy guns up from 24% in latest poll.

    shoot back (a106ba)

  44. “She (and protesters) claim her son did not have a gun.”

    He din do nuffin.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  45. Black community should form black armed militia
    They already have. ‘Cept, they are shooting each other.

    Gazzer (c44509)

  46. How exactly, did hundreds of protesters suddenly show up right after this happened?

    Sounds like a setup … get a cop there to kill. Only it backfired.

    darwin (2a33b8)

  47. Law enforcement isn’t the problem in black communities. It’s the criminal behavior of some members of the community and liberals that are the problem.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  48. Perry is letting his racisms out.

    JD (86a5eb)

  49. “Black community should form black armed militia…(to follow white police officers in their cars to protect black children from being shot.”

    All those “children” who rob, rape and murder. Because it’s racist to try to stop black thugs from being thugs.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  50. Can’t buy guns with EBT cards, Perry. They’d have to get jobs first. But you know that, don’t you, you racist? You want to force black people to work for the Man like it was the plantation days. We can see through your racist plan, you racist bigot.

    nk (dbc370)

  51. po’ perry: militas are only referenced in the 2nd Amendment, because you can’t raise a militia unless the population already OWNS militarily useful weapons.

    what the 2nd Amendment does is codify an individual’s right to keep and bear arms, whether for personal defense, such as when you home or business is attacked by a mob of thugs, or for the defense of liberty, when it is attacked by a mob of thugs.

    HTH!

    redc1c4 (dab236)

  52. Our Windy City barrister wrote:

    Can’t buy guns with EBT cards, Perry. They’d have to get jobs first. But you know that, don’t you, you racist? You want to force black people to work for the Man like it was the plantation days. We can see through your racist plan, you racist bigot.

    Young Mr Martin — doubtlessly a distant relative of Trayvon Martin — had a handgun with the serial number filed off. The obvious questions are: from whom did he buy it, and where did he get the money to pay for it? Or would it be raaaaacist to go looking, in case the seller is not white?

    The Dana who wonders if anyone will look (1b79fa)

  53. Read it all, Heather M. nails it… http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon1222hm.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  54. Speaking of protests…. I Protest!! It is grossly unfair to post something regarding a handgun with “5 rounds in the chamber and one in the magazine” at a time that I must be outside feeding the hayburners. Unfair! I say…

    I will offer some help however: Cops are notoriously cheap (note how they will drive all over town for a half-price meal or free coffee) and to use a functioning 9mm pistol — regardless of where the ammunition is located — as a “throw-down” goes against all logic. Also, please let Berkeley, MO know that it is 2014, almost 2015, and sending a cop out with a “service revolver” borders on negligent. Hopefully this is just more of the reporter’s lack of knowledge…. If it really was a revolver there would be no question as to how many shots the officer fired.

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  55. “She (and protesters) claim her son did not have a gun.”

    There is no higher form of patriotism than lying in the name of your racial identity.

    Craig Mc (299f38)

  56. This is more of a militia than any tea party group is:

    https://twitter.com/hueygunclub

    steveg (794291)

  57. Mr Mc wrote:

    “She (and protesters) claim her son did not have a gun.”

    There is no higher form of patriotism than lying in the name of your racial identity.

    Perhaps she didn’t know that her son had a weapon, though one would think that she’d have been aware of his past rap sheet, and not have been surprised about this. Of course, had she bought him up right, he wouldn’t have had a gun, wouldn’t have pointed it at a police officer, and wouldn’t be stone-cold graveyard dead right now.

    You show me a rotten kid, and I’ll show you a lousy parent.

    The very unsympathetic Dana (1b79fa)

  58. 60
    What is striking is that he had multiple charges of robbery, vetc. since he was 17. At the time of his death, he was eighteen. Meaning all that transpired in the last twelve or twentyfour months, or less…depending on whether “since he was 17″ refers to his 17th or 18th birthday…and when that birthday was. He was probably still awaiting trial on some of them (or possibly escaped because witnesses decided not to “snitch”).

    kishnevi (294553)

  59. “She (and protesters) claim her son did not have a gun.”

    Now I understand what the point is about no body camera. The policeman was one of those who had been given one on a tryout basis, but he didn’t put it on – it was in his car – nor had he activated the dashboard camera.

    There was surveillance video, as there tends to be these days around places of business, but it seems like only the back of the decedent was photographed and it is impossible to tell what, if anything, he had in his hand. There is other video, but none (that we know of at this point) show the front of Antonio Martin’s hand.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  60. #31

    Thanks

    I knew I was confused for a reason.
    Really
    This time anyway

    steveg (794291)

  61. It was impossible to tell exactly what he pointed at the officer.
    But if my cell phone does not have coverage, I do not point it in a fashion that looks like I have a gun. Arm outstretched, something at the end that points at the cop. And then there is the actual gun found on the scene.. Oh, it was “throwdown gun” Jesus, has Al Sharpton infected us all with the spirit of lying assed liar Dorian Johnson. Everyone on scene starts lying lying lying
    Any idiot that handles an object this way at night in front of a cop gets shot. Taser? Please.
    That is dumb

    steveg (794291)

  62. steveg – The immediate conspiracy theories have been nothing short of astounding.

    JD (86a5eb)

  63. We need to have a National Dialogue on this!! Hahahahahahahahahaha.

    Gus (7cc192)

  64. Sammy!! Maybe it was SILLY STRING!!

    Gus (7cc192)

  65. Trying to justifying Martin’s possession of a gun: “Following cop murder of #MikeBrown, one might argue #AntonioMartin would be risking life by not having one”.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  66. The national dialogue should be either run away as fast as possible to get away from trouble that is none of your making, or default to “hands up don’t shoot”
    I mean the for real “hands up don’t shoot” where you put you hands up high and then do whatever the cops say. If they are shouting conflicting commands, just get down on the ground with hands way out away from your body. Give you hands to them so they can put the cuffs on. Doesn’t mean they are right, or not assholes, but it means you get to live another day.

    steveg (794291)

  67. My default was to vacate the premises, but I lived in a very rural semi rural area

    steveg (794291)

  68. steveg @ 69. I had pretty much that conversation with my oldest. Do basically whatever the police request, even if you did nothing wrong. We will sort that part out later. At the time, just do what you are supposed to do, cooperate, and get home.

    JD (86a5eb)

  69. JD good work. The COPS are not the DANGER that your “oldest” faces. What do you tell your “oldest” about his/her INTERACTIONS with “AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES”???? Seriously. Who is more likely to HARM….your “oldest”? Cops OR Losers?? Get a grip.

    Gus (7cc192)

  70. This Country has willfully become STUPID. Not me.

    Gus (7cc192)

  71. The mayor is as ignorant about sidearms as the media.

    Funeral Guy (afbf7b)

  72. Sorry. I meant the police chief. It’s late.

    Funeral Guy (afbf7b)

  73. 55. The Dana who wonders if anyone will look (1b79fa) — 12/24/2014 @ 2:04 pm

    Young Mr Martin — doubtlessly a distant relative of Trayvon Martin

    Not an impossibility at all. You may be on to something, without realizing it. The Trayvon Martin family has relatives in Missouri – that was, in fact, the way in which the Michael Brown family is supposed to hav acquired the same lawyer.

    — had a handgun with the serial number filed off. The obvious questions are: from whom did he buy it, and where did he get the money to pay for it? Or would it be raaaaacist to go looking, in case the seller is not white?

    We’re dealing with gangs here.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  74. There was a case in New York, where someone who had attacked a police,man was killed, but there were claims that the policeman had attacked the person killed, and there were false witnesses who claimed that, and some rioting (this year we haven’t heard the word riot at all anywhere) and then-Mayor David Dinkins accepted that version of events and the city paid for the funeraal of the person killed. Maybe the whole thing quieted down because it was so obviously wrong and the people who told the false version didn’t want too much of an investigation.

    Here is one account: (published in 1999)

    http://nypost.com/1999/04/04/unlimited-cop-bashing-has-a-price/

    “We have a right to demand more respect from the citizens of the city for the police officers of the city of New York,” Giuliani said. And he’s right – for the incendiary rhetoric recalls the way a very different mayor acted in the 1992 case of Jose “Kiko” Garcia.

    Garcia, recall, was killed by an undercover cop as they struggled for the suspect’s illegal gun. But two dubious “eyewitnesses” rushed forward to claim they saw the officer beat Garcia senseless with his radio, then deliberately fire three shots into the prostrate body.

    City Hall didn’t back the accused cop. Instead, the mayor flew the dead man’s family here from the Dominican Republic and met with them – and then had the city pay for Garcia’s funeral. The city medical examiner declared the death a homicide; elected officials marched in the streets, demanding “justice for Kiko”; local residents turned Washington Heights into a war zone for four days.

    But the cop wasn’t indicted – because every detail of the so-called witnesses’ story was contradicted by physical evidence. And, it turned out, Kiko Garcia was a “steerer” who directed customers to a local drug den, run by the son of one “witness.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  75. It was a spoonerism. Like “let’s not throw out the bathwater with the baby”. The chief just mixed up his words. That’s what you guys are focusing on?

    What about the filed serial number? You don’t do that with a stolen gun. You do it with one that can be traced to you. For example, one you took off of someone you detained and frisked, and instead of turning it in you kept as a drop gun. Or a resale from a straw purchase, also very likely.

    I hope they send this gun to the FBI lab. Filed serial numbers can sometimes be recovered, unless they’re drilled all the way through, because the punch distorts the metal deep under the surface. It would be important to talk to whomever it was sold to last, for several reasons.

    nk (dbc370)

  76. This is all crazy.
    People hollering about how the coroner ruled Mr. Garner’s death to be “homicide” and then start screaming murder.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but in this context isn’t a ruling of homicide given as a matter of course when humans have a negative interaction where one or more dies at the hands of another human?

    human on human, death occurs. ruling is going to be homicide. It is up to the judicial system to determine if the homicide was criminal and the medical examiner or coroner is not the one who makes that judgement?

    steveg (794291)

  77. It has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, at the defendant’s trial, but the coroner’s assessment starts the ball rolling. Coroners are a weird hybrid between sheriff and judge, and their opinion is probable cause that a crime was committed and it was not misadventure or visitation of God.

    nk (dbc370)

  78. I don’t understand why the good Lord can’t just give each of us a handful of mulligans.

    Oh, wait..

    DNF (d0b456)

  79. Every breath we take is a second chance. But no matter how many swings you allow a duffer, he’s still a duffer.

    nk (dbc370)

  80. Thanks nk
    Can one plead down to a “misadventure”?
    It looks like the grand jury in the Garner episode ruled it was all a misunderstanding that led to misadventure.

    On another note, in Louisiana a 25 y/o black male, executed a 24 y/o black male in the Foot Locker coming up behind his victim and shooting him 3 times in the head for 3-4 feet away.
    The two men have/had extensive criminal history:

    “François has a prior criminal history with arrests for aggravated battery, resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, simple criminal damage, simple battery, numerous counts of unruly and uncontrollable along with a number of traffic attachments,” Fortunato said. “Vaughn has a prior criminal history with arrests for numerous counts of parole violation, illegal carrying a concealed weapon, being a felon in possession of a firearm, possession of cocaine, aggravated battery, resisting arrest, simple assault, aggravated criminal damage, simple battery, theft and numerous counts of contempt of court.”

    Vaughn is the deceased.

    These two should have had the monikers “crime wave” and crime spree”

    I think that these two guys have probably made life in their neighborhood difficult for decent, hardworking black males 16-40. for the last 8 years.

    steveg (794291)

  81. “On the inquest it was shown that Buck Fanshaw, in the delirium of a wasting typhoid fever, had taken arsenic, shot himself through the body, cut his throat, and jumped out of a four-story window and broken his neck—and after due deliberation, the jury, sad and tearful, but with intelligence unblinded by its sorrow, brought in a verdict of death “by the visitation of God.” What could the world do without juries?”

    Buck Fanshaw’s Funeral, Mark Twain

    nk (dbc370)

  82. 78. nk (dbc370) — 12/25/2014 @ 4:33 am

    It was a spoonerism. Like “let’s not throw out the bathwater with the baby”. The chief just mixed up his words. That’s what you guys are focusing on?

    The New York Post has

    http://nypost.com/2014/12/25/protesters-rally-for-2nd-straight-night-in-berkeley/

    About 90 seconds later, one appears to raise his arm, though it’s difficult to see what he’s holding because they were several feet from the camera. Belmar said it was a 9mm handgun with one round in the chamber and five more in the magazine.

    Police were searching Wednesday for the other man, who ran away.

    Also, a story in the papere this morning, based on “Post Wire Services” written by Yaron Steinbuch, has: “His handgun – which had an earsed serial number – still had five rounds in the magazine and oine in teh chamber, police said:

    There is no penalty for the policeman not putting on his body camera, since they were still new, ad Belmar said the dash-cam was not activated because its emergency lights were not on.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  83. No, I heard the chief himself (press conference) on the radio. He said it, and the media is quoting him. Or was. I guess some are now saying what he meant to say.

    nk (dbc370)

  84. there are four kinds of homicide:
    felonious: aka “murder”
    actionable: aka “manslaughter”
    justifiable: aka “self defense”
    praiseworthy: he or she needed shooting

    😎

    redc1c4 (cf3b04)

  85. re. @80 (and related)…. The coroner determines the circumstances of the death (disease, accident, suicide, homicide, undetermined) according to the laws of the particular state; they are relatively similar only the nomenclature might vary. If the coroner decides homicide then it is up to the prosecution (police and DA usually) to evaluate the circumstances and decide if the homicide is of a criminal nature and whether a prosecution should ensue. The DA may make that determination alone, or may call a grand jury to evaluate the evidence as to whether a prosecution should happen. Either way (grand jury or DA) a criminal complaint requires there be cause to prosecute and evidence sufficient to support charges. Without the coroner saying that a homicide occurred, this won’t happen.

    Guilt or innocence is determined in the trial court, not the grand jury room or coroner’s office.

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  86. The gun used in the New York shooting was traced to a sale made at the Arrowhead Pawn Shop (est. 1989, rebuilt 4 x the size after a fire, 2007) in Jonesboro, Georgia, just south of Atlanta

    …in 1996.

    The person it was sold to is described as Asian. He said he gave it to a cousin. Investigators are trying to follow up the history of that gun. (but it seems to have stayed in or around Atlanta for 18 years.)

    Although the federal dataase as to which gun dealers turn up most frequently in guns linked to crime is closely protected undr a 2003 law, the Washington Post obtained 4 years of data in 2010 aand found Arrowhead was the 5th largest source. In 2010, it wa sthe leadig out-of-state source of guns recovered by New York City police. But it was not among the 27 gun dealers suded by Maor Bloomberg in 2006. So most of that is probably recent.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  87. nk

    Obviously God sure knows how to make an entrance when He decides to visit Mr. Buck Fanshaw.
    Not sure about the arsenic, but the rest sounds OK to me

    steveg (794291)

  88. @89. Sammy, its not nice to post stuff like this without attribution. I recall reading this several days ago, word for word, and when I get the chance I will dig through my traffic to find where I read it and post it here…. unless you want to do the right thing prior. I’ve got some animals to tend to as we are expecting a freeze tonight, so you have some time for reflection.

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  89. 91
    Not only that, it is confusing. Which New York shooting? Not the one discussed up thread, since that happened before 1996.

    kishnevi (3719b7)

  90. if it’s confusing maybe someone should ask piers morgan to give us the 411 on the sitch

    then we can talk about next steps

    happyfeet (831175)

  91. none of my firearms have ever committed a crime:

    not even the one’s i own that came from a police evidence room.

    only the human holding the tool is responsible for the acts committed with it.

    redc1c4 (cf3b04)

  92. nevertheless it don’t hurt to file off the serial numbers mr. red

    not if you got some tasty eggernog a file and an evening to kill

    happyfeet (831175)

  93. #95
    A Dremel tool might be better… punch “dremel” into the Amazon link on this page and “Buy Now!”

    steveg (794291)

  94. ooh thanks for the tip Mr. g

    DO try this at home kids

    happyfeet (831175)

  95. Always fun to help someone else with a felony… but lets bail out on the dremel and go have breakfast and some french toast intead

    steveg (794291)

  96. made waffles with “ronpope” and a wee wee bit of cornstarch to crisp them up.
    I could eat them all day and then waddle off to my bed to dream about more.
    Use ” ronpope” which is mexican spiked eggnog instead of pedestrian eggnog and you will reap the glory
    http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/11/melba-wilsons-southern-fried-chicken-and-eggnog-waffles-recipe.html

    steveg (794291)

  97. yes yes yes i’ve had me the ronpope it’s egged up times 1000

    but here is my addition to the festive treats and one i have yet to do this year

    get you some of this

    and use it as the base for a kind of 10 pm french toast – however you make french toast, just use this as the bread

    it’s the best thing ever

    so say we all

    happyfeet (831175)

  98. Sammy’s post @89 appears to come from the NYT article about the pistol used to kill the 2 NYPD cops. Here’s a link of you want to see the whole thing–

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/nyregion/tracing-the-gun-used-to-kill-2-new-york-city-police-officers.html?_r=0

    It has little to do with the Berkeley, MO, shooting, other than that a gun was involved and was used by someone who would have been barred from obtaining one lawfully. It does say volumes about the effect that these gun laws have on public safety, however.

    Re the obliterated serial numbers: the idea is to somehow keep the police from tying the gun to a particular owner, or from determining that it is stolen. Not that good of an idea however, since modern scientific analysis can restore many “obliterated” numbers, and in most states, maybe also nationally, it is a separate crime to possess a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number. Remember, many of these crooks are not the brightest bulbs.

    Interesting that just this week arrests were made in a case where airline employees were instrumental in the moving of guns from the Atlanta, GA, area into NY using their unrestricted access to internal areas of the airport and the flight line. Here we have a pistol sold by a store near Atlanta showing up many years later in a NYC murder,

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  99. 101. Gramps, the original (9e1415) — 12/25/2014 @ 10:42 pm

    Sammy’s post @89 appears to come from the NYT article about the pistol used to kill the 2 NYPD cops. Here’s a link of you want to see the whole thing–

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/nyregion/tracing-the-gun-used-to-kill-2-new-york-city-police-officers.html?_r=0

    That’s correct.

    But if you read it carefully, this gun was last sold by this pawn shop long before it became an important source of illegally obtained guns. It has to do with the shooting of the two policemen in New York. In the Missouri case they so far can’t trace it at all.

    it is a separate crime to possess a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number. Remember, many of these crooks are not the brightest bulbs.

    If it is illegal for someone to possess a gun in the first place, that would not be a disincentive.

    Interesting that just this week arrests were made in a case where airline employees were instrumental in the moving of guns from the Atlanta, GA, area into NY using their unrestricted access to internal areas of the airport and the flight line. Here we have a pistol sold by a store near Atlanta showing up many years later in a NYC murder,

    Except that this person was living right now in Atlanta, and had it with him in Maryland when he shot his on and off again or ex-girlfriend, so he probably obtained it in Atlanta. That should be ex. He wasn’t supposed to have a key to her apartment.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  100. Both Michael Brown and Antonio Martin were 18 years old, engaged in criminal activity, and had someone (older?) with them when they attacked or attempted to attack a policeman.

    This might be relate.

    Maybe a gang is trying to create victims, so as to reduce police pressure. Thye point about being 18 years old is that the atatcker wass inexperienced and miht have bene motivated to do so by telling him taht there are policemen around who want to assassinate criminals, and his only option for staying alive is to finish off the policeman first. It might not be acoincidence that there is someone else there – perhaps he tells the 18-year old, you have to do this now, there’s no choice.

    F anything like that is going on, there should be some near misses, where someone was being goaded into attacking a policeman by his companion but didn’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa)

  101. there’s a lot of that going around:

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/no_threat_to_the_dead/#206753

    denials of the facts on the ground.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  102. Actually NK, that is true, the ONLY reason to remove a serial number from a weapon is if it can be traced to you, such as if the gun is reported stolen and you are later found with it, then you have to explain how you happen to be in posession of a stolen gun….

    rorschach256 (61bf43)

  103. Possession of stolen property is one to three (if that) and the government has to prove you knew it was stolen; mere possession of a firearm with a defaced serial number is three to seven, up here. But who says criminals are smart?

    nk (dbc370)

  104. What defaced serial numbers you need to look out more for is on cars. Not necessarily stolen, totaleds and parts cars sold as originals, especially vintage ones with a Pep Boys engine and such.

    nk (dbc370)

  105. Those charges are merely to hold you and threaten you with in order to get you to agree to a plea in order to obtain more information, but if multiple crimes can be tied ballistically to that stolen weapon, then you are also on the hook for all of those too unless you can hand them something jucier on a silver platter wrapped in a big red bow.

    rorschach256 (61bf43)

  106. Belmar said one round struck the suspect, an 18-year-old black male

    The media has a bad habit (inadvertent, I’m sure) of never mentioning the race or ethnicity of a suspect in a crime story, but apparently makes an exception when, for example, a white cop shoots a black male.

    Mark (c160ec)

  107. Oh, yeah. “Armed white man kills black youth” is now a meme.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. 109
    In my experience, that is not so, at least in my area, although it may be buried several paragraphs down. Not to mention that often the news report has an accompanying photo of the suspect. But they do seem to avoid mention of the LEO’s background except in cases like this.
    Tangent: only one bullet hit Martin? As I understand it, the officer fired three bullets, one hit his own car (tire rim) and the other went so wild it was not recovered immediately. Obviously the Berkeley police force needs more practice with target shooting.

    kishnevi (294553)

  109. The New York Post recounts a 1962 attack on a policeman (he survived, but his gun was stolen)

    http://nypost.com/2014/12/26/officers-murders-an-echo-of-the-past-for-my-ex-cop-grandfather/

    He was in regular clothes headed to the subway after a routine 4 p.m.-to-midnight shift at the 9th Precinct when he followed the sound of a woman’s cry for help near East 14th Street and First Avenue.

    “Not far from a restaurant, Horn & Hardart,” which he frequented, said my grandfather, now 80.

    What he thought was an ­assault or rape was a set-up.

    He was confronted by four or five thugs and a woman who turned out to be an accomplice.

    My grandfather immediately identified himself as a police ­officer — and the group pummeled him to a bloody pulp and pumped a bullet into his shoulder. Then they punched and kicked him some more….

    …He suffered a broken arm, the gunshot wound to the shoulder, cuts and bruises.

    They fled with his .38-caliber revolver.

    A passer-by flagged down a patrol car, and my grandfather was rushed to Bellevue Hospital. Luckily, his injuries were not life-threatening.

    “I remember the mayor at the time, Robert Wagner. He came to visit me in the hospital. He asked me how I was doing, if I was OK,” he recalled.

    “He was a good mayor. He stuck by us. Served three terms,” he said.

    My grandfather believes that Mb> today’s war on cops has been brewing for decades, and current events closely mirror the times he faced on the same streets as Officers Ramos and Liu, who were assassinated in Brooklyn Saturday.

    1962 is really early.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  110. Black man shot while teaching his 5 y/o boy how to ride a bike on Christmas Eve, dies on Christmas day…
    http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2014/12/26/man-fatally-shot-while-teaching-son-to-ride-his-bike.html

    But the problem is the police.
    I have no doubt that if San Antonio PD shot the killer tomorrow at the liquor store, there’d be protest and wailing, maybe a fire or two set by the professional rioters who have driven down from Ferguson.
    The “He was a good boy, turning his life around, going to go to junior college someday, played with his niece just before he was shot, didn’t have a gun, shot down like an animal, too many bullets shot into him, can’t understand why they didn’t taser him…”

    Save it for if/when it is some idiot cop who sees Joe Black Good Citizen with his son on the bike in the street and brusquely chases them off. Then when the cop sees in his rear view he’s been ignored, heads back and escalates authority and force until dad dies. Then the Grand Jury declines to indict. Burn a few police cars and call for the DOJ. (They are probably already gonna be there and yeah, you just burned their car)

    steveg (794291)

  111. There was a 29-year old woman in Idaho shot by her 2-year old son. He pulled a gun out of her purse, and, well, played with it. This made the evening news on TV.

    Sammy Finkelman (b47846)

  112. Well the son is only 2 and managed to shoot his mom. So it’s mildly interesting (unless you are the Mom)
    Hayden used to be called Hayden Lake and there was a Nazi group who lived there. Hayden bacame a suburb of Cour d Alene as both grew. The lake is a great place to waterski because it is shallow enough to warm up in the summer. I spent a week there back at Matthew Haydens original cabin at the back of the lake using a jet ski for transportation.

    steveg (794291)

  113. The only way a 2-year old can fire a pistol is if it’s a cocked single action. The whole story stinks and not just because the setting is a Walmart.

    nk (dbc370)

  114. Yes, I was wondering about that, nk.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  115. The mom was not only shot, but killed.

    Meanwhile, in Canada…

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/12/30/9-dead-in-canadian-rampage.html

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  116. 116. 117. I assumed that a more detailed report would explain how the toddler managed to do this.

    If you say this is virtually impossible, I’m inclined to go along. I should have remembered that something is often wrong with a story that appears in the media, and the lacunae may indicate that the whole story actually could be wrong. Sometimes that’s the correct answer to mysteries.

    This report by KHQ-TV appears to be the locus classicus:

    http://www.khq.com/story/27730567/kootenai-county-sheriffs-office-deputies-responding-to-shooting-at-walmart

    I don’t know that any of the stories say anything more than he reached into the woman’s (presumably open) purse and discharged a concealed weapon.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  117. Here is a followup story: http://www.khq.com/story/27734587/gun-safety-experts-say-hayden-walmart-shooting-was-tragic-but-preventable

    It’s unclea at his point if the gun’s safety was on..

    That means nobody reporting this has close contact with the incident. The woman’s identity is unknown.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.5959 secs.