Mayor De Blasio: Fanning The Flames
[guest post by Dana]
Instead of working to close the widening rift with NYC police officers, as well as not heeding the president’s admonition after the two police officers were killed: “…officers who serve and protect our communities risk their own safety for ours every single day…deserve our respect and gratitude every single day…. reject violence and words that harm, and turn to words that heal”, Mayor DeBlasio’s office fanned the flames by lashing out at police officers for symbolically turning their backs on the mayor before his press conference Saturday night:
“It’s unfortunate that in a time of great tragedy, some would resort to irresponsible, overheated rhetoric that angers and divides people,” de Blasio spokesman Marti Adams said in a statement following the union leaders’ remarks.
Mayor De Blasio is scheduled to speak at the Police Athletic League Luncheon this afternoon. The subject he will be addressing is strengthening the bonds between police and community.
–Dana
Update: Mayor De Blasio’s comments from today’s luncheon included requesting protesters to suspend protests as two families are preparing for funerals, and that the “attack” on the two officers was “an attack on our democracy, it was an attack on our values – it was an attack on every single New Yorker, and we have to see it as such.”
People are always struggling in a democracy to understand how they can contribute to making things better. So, I can tell you – show great respect for these two families. Show respect and support for our police. Remind people that we as citizens have an obligation to join in protecting our police just as they protect us. We’ve seen instances where there was information that might have saved lives. And I said this several days ago, before this tragedy – I said to those who are protesting, to people who are peaceful, and believe in a democratic society, people of good will – if they saw any in their midst who intended to do violence against police, against their fellow citizens, against property, the protesters should be the first to turn in those bad actors to the police. The protestors should join with the police in solidarity to keep the peace and uphold the values of our democracy. Well I say equally, if anyone of bad intent threatens a police officer – on the internet or anywhere else – anyone who hears such a threat must deliver that information immediately to the NYPD, must turn that individual in. It is all of our obligation, to take the information we have and use it, and ensure there aren’t future tragedies.
We will find a way to come together. We have before, under very trying circumstances. We, together, will find a way.
Hello.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:33 ami’m not picking sides
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:36 amDana –
DeBlasio was talking about Pat Lynch’s comments, not about the cops turning their back on DeBlasio as he walked by.
Penfold (d6b1bc) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:37 amteh De Basio’s
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:43 ama baby-rapin’ bomb thrower
what Yew Nork deserves
This would be an appropriate occasion for De Blasio to submit his resignation. Provided it was accompanied with an apology. De Blasio used the families of the policemen just as Hillary used the families of the Benghazi State Department victims. Crocodile tears. It is disgusting. I’m reminded of my favorite Paul Newman movie, “The Verdict”. Have these people no shame.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:44 amIf politics was a profession akin to medicine, it would do well to adopt as a guiding principle “First do no harm.” This would save the world a lot of misery. Instead, it is run on the basis that you can fool most of the people some of the time, and that is sufficient to get reelected.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:52 amSaid completely without irony. The lack of self-awareness is staggering.
Chuck Bartowski (3e0e89) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:56 amtall marxist white guy
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:56 ama walking infamia
teh groundhog killah
I would call this irresponsible and overheated rhetoric, too. It’s in the Daily Caller link, in Dana’s post; two quotes (it’s possible an earlier version had omitted them):
“Mayor de Blasio, the blood of these two officers is clearly on your hands,” said Sergeants Benevolent Association police union president Edward Mullins.
“That blood on their hands starts on the steps of City Hall in the office of the mayor,” said Pat Lynch, president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association.
nk (dbc370) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:08 amhe washes his hands
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:12 amsoaks ’em like Madge it don’t work
blood on the saddle
That’s different, nk!
Mr. Mullins is an officer of the law! Or a union guy. One of the two, probably.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:15 amsince August, they’ve been stacking cordwood, and pouring kerosene, and they didn’t stop at any time,
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:17 amThe police should attend his talk in force, and once he starts talking and the cameras are rolling, and orderly recession should occur.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:22 am*an
Kevin M (25bbee) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:23 amdGreetings:
Hizzoner, he won.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:30 amBill De Blasio after Michael Brown gets shot: “The racist cops acted stupidly.”
Bill De Blasion after Eric Garner dies of complications of asthma while being taken into police custody: “The racist cops acted stupidly.”
Bill De Blasio when cops turn their backs on him after some black radical killed two cops in revenge for being racist and stupid: “The racist cops acted stupidly.”
Steve57 (98542d) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:39 amit’s too subtle a pattern for some, Steve.
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:42 amDid any of the news shows that sided with De Blasio mention the “overheated rhetoric” of the protestors and their “dead cops” chant?
Crickets.
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:45 amde Blovio has one path, and one only, to saving his Mayoralty, apologize, abjectly, without reservation.
Of course, he could resign too but a sniveling coward he won’t do either.
DNF (1f3f17) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:46 amThe police officers’ union reps represent the police. It’s their job to advocate for the police, and seeing the Mayor take the side of protesters against the police is a valid cause for police concern. The Mayor could blame (but chooses not to, because they give him campaign donations) the legislators and councilpersons who make the laws, and the prosecutors and courts who punish police misconduct. Instead, he finds it politicialy expedient to blame the police who are charged with enforcing the “broken windows” laws the protesters find objectionable.
It’s de Blasio’s job as Mayor to represent all New Yorkers, perhaps especially the men and women who work for him in public safety, and not just the protesters who say things he likes. If he has a problem with the police, he has the power as Mayor to make changes. It’s pathetic to try to alienate the police from society. That approach can lead some people to act out against the police — people like Ismaayil Brimsley.
Furthermore, like Obama, de Blasio has a habit of personalizing the debate — bringing his son’s ethnicity into ta debate about the police is an emotional way to further fan the flames. Shame on him.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:47 amFWIW, I think de Blasio brought his son’s name into the debate because he wanted to share that Obama said de Blasio’s son reminded him of himself as a young man — a comparison that obviously pleased de Blasio. By the way, I bet Obama says that to every young black or multi-race young man who supports Obama. It’s as natural for him as a politician kissing babies.
De Blasio seems to think it’s police misconduct to stop black/bi-racial young men like his son. I doubt he worries about white young men getting stopped, even though that happens, too. Now does he mention how flawed the data about police shootings is. De Blasio is using this as a political tool to score points and, like most politicians, he hates when there’s blowback. This time the blowback is more than politicial. It cost two men their lives.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/22/2014 @ 8:58 am9. Sorry, Commissioner Bratton has filled the level-headed, public service role on this one.
The PBA is well within their rights to out Obama, Holder and de Blasio and in no credible sense are fanning the flames of anarchy which the Bolsheviks have eagerly pursued.
Pushback against racism and mob rule seeking martial law is thoroughly commendable.
DNF (1f3f17) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:01 am#9: nk, Pointing out what De Blasio did is only irresponsible if the goal is to quietly forget the whole thing. I think this is what Obola was talking about when he used the term “words that harm”. This concern over words is very asymmetric. It’s OK for politicians to use the police as scapegoats if that is politically expedient, say energizing their base. But when things go south, it’s time to hush up those who dare to remember how we got here in the first place.
Both Obola and De Blasio are in positions of leadership, but they routinely abdicate all responsibility for events. Obola’s favorite excuse is that he just learned about it in the news, if you need to be reminded. Then they launch on the need for reform and “words that heal” as though this will preempt any criticism. It is mind boggling.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:03 amDOJ Report on the Albuquerque Police Department
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:03 amChoice quote:
“Albuquerque police officers too often use deadly force in an unconstitutional manner in the use of their firearms. To illustrate, of the 20 officer-involved shootings resulting in fatalities from 2009 to 2012, we concluded that a majority of these shootings were unconstitutional. Albuquerque police officers often use deadly force in circumstances where there is no imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to officers or others.”
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:08 amGoing forward anyone who has a kind, agreeable word to say for the Lord of flies, his motivations, words or policies, e.g., Ra Paul on Cuba, is worse than a useful idiot, they have throne in their lot with the enemy, and are providing aid and comfort.
Obama and his minions mean us only harm in everything they say or do.
DNF (1f3f17) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:10 amShame on you, DRJ! The children of (Democratic) politicians are off limit. Any discussion of a Democrat’s use of his/her children to score political points is cheap, below the belt politicking.
Now that we’ve got the rules of etiquette out of the way, do you want to hear the latest joke about Mitt Romney’s black grandchild currently making the rounds at MSNBC? Or maybe you missed the Letterman joke about Willow Palin and statutory rape in the stands at Yankee stadium. That’s a real knee slapper; it was a huge hit at the DNC convention in 2012.
But for the love of all that is holy, don’t talk about Mayor De Blasio’s son! Children of politicians are not a fit topic for public discussion. They are a private family matter, and never more private then when a Democrat puts them on center stage.
Steve57 (98542d) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:10 am25. Consider the source, Sprout.
DNF (1f3f17) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:11 amThe Albuquerque police department overhauled its procedures following the DOJ’s investigation. Among other items, the department agreed not to use chokeholds, something even my little city’s police force did a decade ago. I’m glad to see Albuquerque make these changes.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:15 amTo clarify, my police department stopped using chokeholds at least a decade ago (maybe longer). New York City banned them in 1993.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:18 amLeviticus, has it ever ocurred to you that New Mexico may be an outlier? I recall reading about a guy who ran a red light and ended up having multiple cavity searches that stretched over many hours. The ordeal was capped by an early morning colonscopy for which the victim was billed $5,000. But he has sued and last I heard he’d recieved $1M from the county, IIRC. This still leaves the fate of the hospital and “doctor” who performed these “searches”, all without his permission, and together they might have much deeper pockets than the county.
I have decided to avoid New Mexico in my future travel plans. Ditto New York, D. C., and Maryland.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:23 am30. Have they updated their mission statement?
Police departments are an arm of local government. Unlike elected county Shreiffs they are largely in place to support and maintain the power of that government.
Reworking their published procedures, their boilerplate does not change their raison de etre, or their function: to maintain public order for their government.
Insofar as this benefits the public, it is a good.
DNF (1f3f17) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:27 amOf course, the fact that the current Republican Governor in Santa Fe is an outlier, is also not mentioned by Leviticus.
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:36 amNew Mexico has been a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democrat Party for generations, and the policies and procedures found there are theirs.
A cynic could say that the Democrat Party just changed the uniforms of their enforcers from white to blue.
Nothing convinces me that a police department is operating unconstitutionally more than repeating the word “unconstitutional” as many times as possible.
And just how is the DoJ defining the words “imminent threat” today, Leviticus? When it came to justifying Prom Queen’s policy of using drone strikes to kill US citizens, Eric Holder’s DoJ proved it can be more flexible than a Chinese gymnast. Then, Holder’s DoJ went with a “broader concept of imminence” and actually defined an “imminent threat” as “one that the US government may not be aware of” and “thus cannot be confident that none is about to occur.” As the saying goes, I s*** you not.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf
Interesting, no? According to the DoJ an “imminent threat” is a threat you have no evidence of and isn’t going to take place in the immediate future. An “imminent threat” is something you must eliminate because you just never know, so what the h3ll!
If your name is Barack Hussein Obama, that is. When it comes to reviewing the actions of police officers, the DoJ defines an “imminent threat” as one that already put you in the morgue. Since the cop didn’t get stabbed or shot, there’s no evidence of an imminent threat.
And eliminating a threat without that evidence is unconstitutional, apparently. If your name isn’t Barack Hussein Obama.
Steve57 (98542d) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:37 amon the upside, New Mexico’s police won’t go upside your head. On the downside…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:44 am“A cynic could say that the Democrat Party just changed the uniforms of their enforcers from white to blue.”
– askeptic
You said it, not me.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:46 am36- “A man is known by the company he keeps.”
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:56 am24. Albuquerque is a whole story. But there’s no too much racial here.
The constrained view pays attetion to incentives.
And we’ve got that there – the wrong way:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/payments-to-albuquerque-officers-involved-in-shootings-called-bounty-system.html?pagewanted=all
The Albuquerque policeman’s union gives 90% of all the police officers who shoot someone money – usually $500, but could be $300, $800 or $1,000. The $500 is supposedly to cover the costs of out-of-town trips for officers and their families after stressful episodes, and they can get more for other union-related matters.
Albuquerque had about 1/32 the number of policemen as New York (which is not only bog but has just about the best record on shootings) but the same number of shootings.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/22/2014 @ 10:10 amR.I.P. Joe Cocker
Icy (262fb7) — 12/22/2014 @ 10:33 amThere is a clash of cultures. Red as in Communist culture versus Blue as in police culture.
De Blasio is not worth upsetting my friends over.
The NYPD is not worth upsetting my friends over.
I’m going to see if I can find “Fail Safe” to watch. It’s my favorite movie ending.
nk (dbc370) — 12/22/2014 @ 10:42 amnk, I thought you would appreciate “Dr. Strangelove” more? Slim’s Wild Ride!
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:09 amBut, I can see the attraction of returning NYC to it’s natural (but burned) state.
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:10 amLeviticus,
If you were De Blasio, how would you have handled the situation? What would be the main focus of your comments on both the Garner outcome and the murder of the two police officers?
And, if given the opportunity and you were in De Blasio’s predicament today, what words would you have chosen to stem the tide of discord and narrow the gulf between you and those who serve to protect you and residents of the city?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:13 amLeviticus @ 24… I’m curious, was the DeBlasio topic not going the way you wanted?
Any idea how many prosecutions are pending for all these “unconstitutional” actions? Any actual facts released to support the allegations? APD may be bad, but I doubt if it’s as bad as that report says. Of course that could be because I don’t trust the Feebs or DOJ.
labcatcher (61737c) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:20 amnk,
My mentor and good friend was a prosecutor and then a defense attorney. He said all the things you say.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:25 amteh matador!… teh MATADOR!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:28 amdefinitely see the inspiration for Pong and Space Invaders in that one, nk.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:31 amPat Lynch apparenly seems to think that “broken windows” applies to demonstrations – if you let people go further, eventually they’ll graduate to murder. But he may be just trying to be very “pro-police” because he needs to get votes to remain a union leader, and maybe the new contract won’t be as good as he’s promising. Or he may hope de Blasio calms him down by offering more money.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:36 am“If you were De Blasio, how would you have handled the situation? What would be the main focus of your comments on both the Garner outcome and the murder of the two police officers?”
– Dana
I’m not DiBlasio, but if I was DiBlasio the main focus of my comments would be that it is a tragedy that the police and the citizenry are essentially at war with one another, that I grieve for the families and friends of the dead, and that civil society needs to open and maintain a space for effective dialogue aimed at better understanding people from the Other Side. Patterico Rules: take the time and invest the energy to state the other side’s position in a way that they agree is accurate.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:57 amYeah, but what do you say when people are chucking cobblestones at your head?
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:04 pmNo one’s chucking cobblestones at my head, so I dunno.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:08 pmLeviticus,
The reason I inquired was to see what exactly it is that you would do differently (if anything) and to understand before reacting.
With that:
It strikes me that the language is not only inflammatory, but would also encourage an already angry faction that is behaving outside of acceptable protest, to increase their efforts. Doesn’t it validate their position? Do you believe the NYC police have viewed themselves at “war” with the citizenry until recently?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:10 pmLeviticus – Thank you for making it clear you are not DiBlasio. None of us were confused. 🙂
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:16 pmfellow traveler
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:26 pmobvious vulcan mindmeld
and he’s not Lisa
“Do you believe the NYC police have viewed themselves at “war” with the citizenry until recently?”
– Dana
I don’t know about New York, which is why I am reluctant to try to speak as DiBlasio. I believe the Albuquerque police department often views things that way, as indicated by the words and actions of its officers.
And, as one of Patterico’s recent questions highlighted, I believe that the intent of the speaker is not automatically all-important where significant portions of the audience hear a different message. The police can stubbornly insist that they do not intend to wage war on the citizenry; if significant portions of the citizenry nonetheless feel that war is being waged upon them by the police, then the police have some responsibility to modify the way that they are communicating their message.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:36 pm== it is a tragedy that the police and the citizenry are essentially at war with one another==
Man, talk about hyperventilating overstatement! Even with all that’s been going on I am quite certain that not “significant portions of the citizenry nonetheless feel that war is being waged upon them by the police”. Is this really the worldview under which you are operating ?
elissa (0fae53) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:52 pmI’ve updated the post with Mayor De Blasio’s comments delivered today at the Police Athletic League Luncheon.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:54 pm55. Its fine to bring up the backwater of Albuquerque as a locale within these formerly United States where the sophistication of civilization has not yet extended.
Our point is that it’s a little late to hold out hope for civilization.
Your police force is your government. Your government is losing. WTF do you expect, Pollyanna?
Your life will be an experience of societal decline.
DNF (1f3f17) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:57 pm“Man, talk about hyperventilating overstatement! Even with all that’s been going on I am quite certain that not “significant portions of the citizenry nonetheless feel that war is being waged upon them by the police”. Is this really the worldview under which you are operating ?”
– elissa
A) I suppose it depends on which portions of the citizenry you ask (or which portions you deem significant).
B) “Albuquerque police officers too often use deadly force in an unconstitutional manner in the use of their firearms. To illustrate, of the 20 officer-involved shootings resulting in fatalities from 2009 to 2012, we concluded that a majority of these shootings were unconstitutional. Albuquerque police officers often use deadly force in circumstances where there is no imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to officers or others.”
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 12:57 pmIf the police often use deadly force unconstitutionally and unnecessarily, and are almost never prosecuted for it, and persistently violate the Fourth Amendment, and respond to calls for increased dialogue by militarizing at an alarming rate and to an alarming extent, what word would you propose to describe the relationship between the police and the citizenry?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:00 pm“55. Its fine to bring up the backwater of Albuquerque as a locale within these formerly United States where the sophistication of civilization has not yet extended.
Our point is that it’s a little late to hold out hope for civilization.”
– DNF
Pretty sure that the closest person sharing “our” point is me, not elissa or Dana or anyone else on this thread.
But to help you out, I’ll state plainly that I agree with you that my life will be an experience of societal decline.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:04 pmLost.
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:09 pmIf the Department of Justice, in all of its majesty,
declared “that a majority of these shootings were unconstitutional’,
they must then be asked why they did not pursue civil-rights charges against the officers in question.
To do less would seem to be a shirking of their duty to the Country and the Constitution.
Or, did they not pursue them because perhaps the shootings were mostly ‘brown on brown’?
Did the report individually identify these civil-rights violators?
“…I agree with you that my life will be an experience of societal decline.”
Well, there’s always Texas!
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:10 pmI’ll stick to New Mexico, thanks.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:13 pmWhile there is an email being circulated amongst the rank and file of the NYPD, citing the use of “wartime” policing tactics, is that in part, what you are using to establish your assessment of being at “war”, Leviticus?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:14 pmNo, but it helps.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:18 pmI will agree that cops (and other large bureaucracies) can be their own worst enemies.
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:21 pmReason has chimed in….
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:23 pmProbably the smartest thing that Reason has said lately:
“…It’s time for the residents of New York to own up to their share of responsibility in this situation for demanding and supporting an increasing number of laws police are then told to go enforce on the poorest and most marginalized residents of New York City…”
Voters do tend to get the government that they ask for, sometimes “good and hard”.
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:26 pmI don’t like it when the police shoot family dogs which are annoying them or when cops mistakenly enter the wrong house with a swat team and knock innocent people around because they read the drug dealer’s address wrong. I don’t like it when evidence is planted or when cops cover for bad cops with a code of silence. I don’t like it when a police bullet or a stun gun or bean bag or chokehold kills a mentally ill or elderly or special needs person who doesn’t or can’t obey a police command.
I also don’t like it when a police officer gets popped coming through the door for a 911 call when he’s trying to rescue a woman or child from being abused, and I don’t like it when an officer is accused of actions he or she did not take, or when blatant lies are told about a criminal’s background and actions which prompted a lethal police response. I don’t like it when some American High Schools and even Jr. Highs are populated with so many dangerous teen age criminals that full time police presence is required both on the school grounds and inside classes to assure the safety of innocents including students, faculty, and staff. I don’t like it when officers are executed on duty while protecting residents of a bad neighborhood from local neighborhood thugs
elissa (0fae53) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:28 pmlikes are include cake pops and rpat movies
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:40 pmCongressman Rangel confronted on air with video of New York marchers chanting “what do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!” after claiming such chants never happened.
http://weaselzippers.us/208859-instant-classic-rangel-stumped-after-insisting-protesters-never-chanted-they-want-dead-cops-then-shown-video-of-them-saying-it/
elissa (0fae53) — 12/22/2014 @ 1:51 pmCharley was probably distracted by thoughts of his Caribbean real-estate – and another two years in the minority.
askeptic (efcf22) — 12/22/2014 @ 2:29 pmThere is the claim, made by Ron Kuby, that the New York Post looked for the worst protesters and publicized them.
On the other hand, the people sponsering the demonstration should of course try to do something about that, say they are not cpvered by their permit, of there is one.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/22/2014 @ 2:43 pm“the “attack” on the two officers was “an attack on our democracy, it was an attack on our values – it was an attack on every single New Yorker, and we have to see it as such.”
No, it wasn’t.
Just A Guy (08458e) — 12/22/2014 @ 2:55 pmit’s getting kinda difficult to take this situation seriously
it’s raining outside to where the streets glisten with christmas lights and all the buildings are shrouded in soft cloud and there’s a candy store but not today not for me cause I need to get on the train with my christmas cookies I’m a take to my friend d cause it’s christmas
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/22/2014 @ 3:38 pmdeBlasio didn’t bring up his secret meeting with the protestors did he?
seeRpea (7ce5fe) — 12/22/2014 @ 3:38 pmdoesn’t seemed to have addressed the actual goings on at the bigger protests nor his *actual* statements at the times of the protests.
i found it hard to actually believe that it represents his thoughts,
seeRpea (7ce5fe) — 12/22/2014 @ 3:39 pmbut Sharptons condemnation was far better than what the POTUS and deBlasio had to say.
I thought his comments at the PAL were reasonably good, if a little late.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/22/2014 @ 5:31 pmDe Blasio has now echoed what Brooklyn Boro President (since 2013) Eric Adams (a former policeman, who while a policemen headed an organization of black policemen) has said: he protestst should stop until after the funerals of the two policemen.
That would be after next weekend.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/22/2014 @ 5:36 pm61. Being for more laws and government is an unconventional beginning at agreement.
I don’t believe you can manage the contortions.
DNF (86c7f8) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:11 pmVoters do tend to get the government that they ask for, sometimes “good and hard”.
As bad as things may be, or may become, in the US, always look to countries like Mexico or Venezuela, or any of the perennially tragic societies of Africa, etc — and then shudder — to remember and realize just how truly (truly!) bad things can get.
Mark (c160ec) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:24 pm#82: Mark, I’ll throw in all of Europe (excluding the UK) and China to your list if only to honor the hundreds of millions who have died as a result of their wars over the last 200 years. And with that addition, I suggest that this is a constrained version of our exceptionalism. The best of a large number of awful choices. And yet we are supposed to think Europe has the answers?
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/22/2014 @ 7:58 pmProtesters disrupt the memorial for the slain officers by yelling at police officers paying their respects.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:02 pmI am still trying to comprehend how it could be viewed as though the food are waging war on the citizenry.
And the idea that the Holder DOJ would honestly define imminent or unconstitutional is laughable.
JD (86a5eb) — 12/22/2014 @ 9:15 pm#82: Mark, I’ll throw in all of Europe (excluding the UK) and China to your list if only to honor the hundreds of millions
bobathome, at the core of so many crummy nations, crummy places, crummy situations, is the ideological failings of so many people, time and time again. Common sense really isn’t all that common, and neither is logic, which is why the human condition and human nature can be quite pathetic, if not outright contemptible.
Mark (c160ec) — 12/22/2014 @ 11:07 pm85. I don’t accept the Leftist premise that local law-abiding communities are at odds with their local governments, and the corollary that the Feds can step in and improve the situation.
It is a lie.
DNF (072c7c) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:22 amAl Sharpton says he’s not going to stop the protests.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/rev-al-sharpton-vows-press-police-reforms-blog-entry-1.2053741
He says Brinsley was not part of his movement. He also says
The only problem with that is that bad police are held accountable now. At least in those cases that Al Sharpton takes up.
That they are not is the big lie here.
The New York Times in an editorial has something today about “lies and distrust” but they don’t seem to have any accusations against the police in mind. What they seem to have in mind as lies is blaming the tragedy on the demonstrations.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:37 amFood for thought:
If I am correct, black distrust of police is higher now than it was in 2009.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/386336/poll-african-americans-think-race-relations-have-gotten-worse-2009-ryan-lovelace
Now that cannot be based on personal experience. Actual unfairness should have stayed the same or gotten better. I mean, after all, the president and the Attorney General are African American and they can sue police departments.
This is then, therefore, based on lies and propaganda, mostly since 2012.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:44 amHere it is:
http://c2.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/8-25-14-Police-and-Race-Release.pdf
So some of those blacks whose opinion of their local police was a little bad in 2009, now think it is a lot bad. The movement has been mostly from neutral or some lack of confidence (whatever words they used in the poll) to “very little” confidence. That has not been because the police have gotten worse, it goes without saying. But those somewhat diusposed to distrust the police, now have lies to believe – about Trayvon Martin, about Michael Brown, and what happened to Eric Garner, and some incidents which may actually be bad, but are nothing new.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:53 amNo, Sammy. They thought that having Obama and Holder would be a license to steal and get out of jail free card; and the cops are disappointing them. If they’re thinking of anything besides how to convert their EBT into cash to buy crack with, it could possibly be that the cops are disobeying the Magical Mau Mau.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:53 am89. “If I am correct”
In what space-time continuum?
DNF (072c7c) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:03 amI think many people have bought into the idea that all opposition to Obama is racist, and the reason Obama’s administration hasn’t been a glowing success is that the evil white republicans block all of his good ideas. I know people who I thought were otherwise pretty intelligent believe that with all their heart and mind, probably in that order.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:06 amFWIW, my son the detective says things with police have improved greatly over the last 20 years or so, if even 1/2 of the stories of the “old timers” are true.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:08 amThe change in the answers to the poll between 2009 and now are confined mostly to African Americans who otherwise anyway already had a not so high opinion of the police – which makes sense. That’s the sort of person who believe lies. This change of opinion an only come from lies and propaganda about police.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:18 am#93: Doc, the people you refer to fall into Sowell’s unconstrained category. One simple way to avoid congnitive dissonance is to attribute perceived problems to those who disagree with you. This is a form of magical thinking, but it is comforting to the true believers. Unfortunately, it masks the need for introspection. It also leads almost directly into the death camps of Cambodia, or the reeducation camps of Mao’s China, or Hitler’s “work will set you free” camps. The logic is simple: the world isn’t perfect; someone disagrees with a true believer, say a progressive, about the solution; the first step to a solution therefore becomes the extermination of those who disagree with the true beliver. If the slaughtered had possessions, this solution can pay for itself. But it only works once.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:41 am“And the idea that the Holder DOJ would honestly define imminent or unconstitutional is laughable.”
– JD
Wait… are you saying that you don’t trust law enforcement?!
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:43 amYou confuse “trust” and “law enforcement” with “Holder DOJ”. The “Holder DOJ” is predictable, but that has nothing to do with the trust that our system of government has regrettably placed upon them.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:17 amI think it is pretty undisputed that the DOJ has swung to an anti-police posture under Holder.
Wicked Mobs, Cop Killers, and the Attorney General – RTWT
http://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2014/12/21/4745/
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:19 amHeather MacDonald has a piece out on the subject.
The Big Lie of the Anti-Cop Left Turns Lethal:
http://www.city-journal.org/2014/eon1222hm.html
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:24 amwrenching attack on civilization oh please
this is a new york city thing not a “civilization” because they’re dysfunctional in their own special way
the rest of america has for real issues to deal with not silly al sharpton de blasio thuggy thuggy union trash popo issues
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:37 amnot a civilization thing I mean
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:39 amwhere al sharpton trods
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:41 amdeath will soon surely follow
it be his thang y’all
The DOJ is in charge of most federal law enforcement agencies. If someone were to defend the integrity of US law enforcement agencies by slagging off the DOJ, I would find that to be an ironic position.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:46 amunshaven women
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:54 amironic position bound
in New Mexico
teh DOJ meh
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:56 ambut they’re ROBOT OVERLORDS
to whelp counselor
de Blasio:
Someone did. But it wasn’t enough.
They are now trying to find out if someone in New York didn’t.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:59 amin new mexico
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:00 aminsult cops and soon they be
upside uranus
the only good thang
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:02 ampimp sharpton ever did was
carry james brown’s cape
mama come here quick
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:04 amque pasa peeps que pasa
jump back kiss myself
“The DOJ is in charge of most federal law enforcement agencies. If someone were to defend the integrity of US law enforcement agencies by slagging off the DOJ, I would find that to be an ironic position.”
Leviticus – What is ironic about a former DOJ employee criticizing the biased policies of the current DOJ. What am I missing?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:04 am“If someone were to defend the integrity of US law enforcement agencies by slagging off the DOJ, I would find that to be an ironic position.”
Leviticus – Nevermind. I found it. Who is doing the above?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:06 am“Who is doing the above?”
– daleyrocks
No one, hopefully.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:15 amLeviticus – Why did you raise it if nobody was doing it? Ironic?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:18 amI believe in incentives. And disincentives.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:19 amLike, disincentivizing that position by framing it as a logically tenuous position
is why I raised it
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:21 amAlthough now that I think about it, I’m in the same position. How can I trust the DOJ report if law enforcement agencies lie all the time?!
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:25 amAnyway, I’ll take a step back and focus on the pile of unarmed dead people.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:26 amIn the Third Book of Moses, it was written:
As you should:
There are your piles of unarmed dead people, most of whom were black men, and most of whom were killed by other black men.
The Dana with a sense of perspective (f6a568) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:47 amThat was beneath you, Leviticus.
JD (7eac2b) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:48 amUnarmed is an attempt to grossly minimize the threat. Mike Brown was unarmed, but clearly a threat.
JD (7eac2b) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:49 am“In another incident, in October 2009, an officer shot and killed Dominic Smith, who was unarmed and fleeing the scene of a robbery on foot. Smith did not pose a threat of death or serious bodily injury to officers or others. Smith used a threatening note to rob a pharmacy for drugs before fleeing on foot. No one at the pharmacy saw Smith with any kind of a weapon and he did not commit acts of violence during the alleged robbery. An officer apprehended Smith just minutes later across the street from the pharmacy and stated that Smith appeared heavily intoxicated. The officer stated that he saw no weapons. The officer, with his gun drawn, ordered Smith to stop, but Smith continued walking away from the officer. The officer returned to his car, retrieved an assault rifle, and again confronted Smith, who continued to disregard the officer’s orders. With Smith just a few feet away, the officer claimed that Smith motioned near his waist, which the officer believed to indicate that Smith was reaching for a gun. The officer shot and killed Smith. Smith did not have a gun. A reasonable officer confronting Smith as he fled from the pharmacy thus would not have believed that Smith posed an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm. As the Supreme Court stated in Garner, “A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead.” Id. at 11.”
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:55 amLeviticus:
We all have biases. I want to believe in the police and I’m fortunate to have a police force that largely justifies my belief. You come from the opposite position, but we can meet in the middle through reason.
I read the DOJ’s Albuquerque police department report and it used facts to convince me there was merit to the complaints. I also looked some of the stories up online and while I don’t think it’s clear every officer was wrong, the sheer volume of complaints gives me pause. Similarly, I think you can look at the sheer volume of police action in America and compare that to the complaints/death statistics, and see that police misconduct isn’t the rule. The Michael Brown case is a good example of the fact that events can be portrayed in an emotional way that doesn’t match the facts. Unfortunately, some people remember the emotional portrayal, not the reason or facts. Fortunately, the folks at Patterico.com aren’t some people.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:57 amSorry to disappoint you, JD. But I don’t believe it is either inaccurate or unwarranted to point out that unarmed people continue to be unnecessarily killed by police officers.
This is a particularly sensitive issue in Albuquerque, so you can take my comments with a grain of salt I suppose.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:58 amThe officer returned to his car, retrieved an assault rifle, and again confronted Smith, who continued to disregard the officer’s orders. With Smith just a few feet away, the officer claimed that Smith motioned near his waist, which the officer believed to indicate that Smith was reaching for a gun. The officer shot and killed Smith.
Leviticus – Key bits highlighted. What matters is what officer thought, not people in store.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:01 amDominic Smith’s death is unfortunate, too, but do you expect a police officer to risk his life that Smith didn’t have a gun — I instead of the phone he was probably retrieving from his waistband? The police reasonably believe in those situations that it’s “us vs them.” It is the officer’s life on the line. He made the wrong decision but it wasn’t a bad decision, but if Smith had a gun — and remember, Smith had already committed a robbery using a threatening note — then it could have been a very bad decision. You are far too hard on the police but they aren’t mind-readers and they can only deal with the events they face, events in which they only have seconds to react.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:03 amThe Bernalillo grand jury found Dominic Smith’s shooting was justified. Why aren’t you condemning these Albuquerque residents, as well as the police?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:06 amThere’s a certain inefficiency in attempting to gain our sympathy — or my sympathy, at any rate — for someone killed by a police officer when he was a criminal leaving the scene of a crime he had just committed.
The Dana who separates the wheat from the chaff (f6a568) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:18 am#104: I used the word regrettable which is very different from ironic. It is also the case that our law enforcement is a localized responsibility, at least in a constitutional view of our republic. It is regrettable that almost all levels of the Federal beaucracy from the EPA to the DOJ can behave so irresponsibly. It is predictable. It is the reason I support the form of government we had until 2009. It is not ironic.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:18 amI’m not “condemning” anyone, I don’t think, but I do believe that those Albuquerque residents are part of this problem.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:19 amI guess that what we need to do is replace all white police officers with black police officers; if all of our police are blacks, when one of them shoots a suspect, whether justifiably or not, our good friends on the left won’t care and won’t make a fuss about it.
The Dana with the solution (f6a568) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:20 amABQ police
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:22 amcavity search or gun shot
quick on teh trigger
And while we’re on the subject of police assinations, four police officers were murdered in a cafe in Nov. 2009 in Lakewood, a suburban community southeast of Tacoma. The killer had a resume that was similar to the NYC killer. He was finally killed by a Seattle policeman after several days during which he received help from family members. Just another anecdote?
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:23 amThe Dana who separates the wheat from the chaff,
I am not comfortable with cops being judge, jury, and executioner. Was Smith convicted of a crime? Was there a death sentence for that crime?
DRJ,
The report expressly states that “a reasonable officer confronting Smith as he fled from the pharmacy thus would not have believed that Smith posed an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm.” Certainly, you can disagree with that assessment, but it will go to show how there is great divergence in what people deem to be “reasonable” in the peculiar context of police shootings.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:23 amBen Dover and cough
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:24 amclear view into the New Year
what tomorrow brings
By the way, DRJ, I should state that I agree with your comment at 123.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:25 amc’mon, bobathome! where’s yer family values? teh family that slays together, stays together.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:25 am“You are far too hard on the police but they aren’t mind-readers and they can only deal with the events they face, events in which they only have seconds to react.”
DRJ – The mind readers are the agenda driven hindsight heroes hired by Holder’s DOJ second guessing split second decisions they themselves have never been forced to make.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:27 am“What matters is what officer thought, not people in store.”
– daleyrocks
What the officer thought matters, but its certainly not all that matters. Other things matter too – like the fact that the officer was mistaken, and that someone died as a result.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:27 amColonel, I heard that one of the rioters detained by the NYC police for throwing a 40 pound trash can was a white Professor of Poetry at Rutgers. This sort of behavior must surely result in the need for Rutgers to hire a replacement? Burnish your resume.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:29 amthere’s a lot of that going around:
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/12/22/four-gitmo-afghans-repatriated-one-a-taliban-arms-supplier-believed-to-be-peddling-uranium/
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:34 am“I guess that what we need to do is replace all white police officers with black police officers; if all of our police are blacks, when one of them shoots a suspect, whether justifiably or not, our good friends on the left won’t care and won’t make a fuss about it.”
The Dana with the solution – Oh, I think the unspoken racist premise on the LIV racist left is that black police officers will enforce the law against bruthahs as enthusiastically as white police.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:40 am“What the officer thought matters, but its certainly not all that matters.”
Leviticus – Cerainly. For example I am still conflicted about the fake moon landing and whether you are in fact Bill DeBlasio.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:46 amLeviticus – Is the number of annual police shooting of unarmed shootings bigger or smaller than the college rape culture?
Asking for a friend.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:48 amyes, that was Huckabee’s good deed gone awry,
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:53 am“Leviticus – Cerainly. For example I am still conflicted about the fake moon landing and whether you are in fact Bill DeBlasio.”
– daleyrocks
Or like, for instance, it matters whether or not I think it’s worth my time talking to you. But it’s certainly not all that matters!
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:57 amLeviticus,
Back to your comment: it is a tragedy that the police and the citizenry are essentially at war with one another, what came first, the criminal or the officer found at a fault? IOW, was there a particular case that caused you to now deem there is a “war” going on?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 11:05 am122. Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:55 am
Does this mean that he had pretended to have a gun…
If so, did the policeman know he had claimed to have a gun?
Who was approaching whom?
What does he mean? That might be interpreted as claiming he had a gun, and would use it if the policeman didn’t go away, but not that he was actually was reaching for one.
Smith was also drunk, which would give the policeman an added margin of safety.
Not faster than the policeman could react.
”
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 11:09 am“Or like, for instance, it matters whether or not I think it’s worth my time talking to you.”
Leviticus – Sort of like you dropping nonsequiturs such as ” If someone were to defend the integrity of US law enforcement agencies by slagging off the DOJ, I would find that to be an ironic position.” in the middle of a conversation and disingenuously making superfluous claims about other things people were not saying make you an increasing waste of my time. Ironic.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 11:42 amLeviticus – Have you ever rolled a 300 in basketball?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/23/2014 @ 11:44 am“Back to your comment – “it is a tragedy that the police and the citizenry are essentially at war with one another” – what came first, the criminal or the officer found at a fault? IOW, was there a particular case that caused you to now deem there is a “war” going on?”
– Dana
The James Boyd case in Albuquerque was a big one, for me (and a lot of people around here). If you are interested, here’s the video.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 12:03 pmDo people here think that “unarmed” simply connotes a person not having a gun, or not showing/brandishing a gun, or does unarmed/armed mean different things such as various weapons/size or learned skills to different people? On the Cuba thread is a discussion of Cop killer Joanne Chesamard/ Assata Shakur. Here is what happened:
It sure seems that armed people don’t always let on they are armed until it is too late and they have harmed or even killed someone. It appears that a person who is armed (the officer with his service revolver in this case ) can become someone who is “unarmed” in a hurry and unable to protect himself. Although it’s not what happened in this N.J. case, it’s clear that an initially unarmed person intent on doing harm can become an armed person in a hurry if they are strong enough to overpower someone with a gun or knife.
What I am getting at here is that for the people who demand that things MUST be clean and clearcut, I’m sorry but street and crime scene interactions between police and perpetrators will NEVER be clean and clearcut. The second guessing after the fact and omission of other also salient details make the narrative and distinction of who is “armed” and who is “unarmed” far from certain in many, any cases that require split second decisions.
Michael Brown may have been “unarmed” in the sense he did not have/show a weapon in the convenience store he robbed. But Brown overpowered the clerk. It seems there is evidence and testimony presented by witnesses that points to the fact that upon encountering officer Darren Wilson, Brown wanted to be armed, reached inside the car, and assaulted the cop with the intent of going after the officer’s weapon.
elissa (4d84c9) — 12/23/2014 @ 12:07 pmNarcisco, this was indeed a bit of misplaced compassion. It all stems from the notion that our prisons are departments of correction. Given they have recitivism rates in the 60% to 70% range, and the ones who don’t return are like Conrad Black, which is to say political targets of opportunity, so-called conservatives who balance their state budgets by releasing violent hoodlums, or declining to return them to jail, are best retired at an early age, especiallly if said conservatives can earn a living strumming on a bass guitar.
There is a pattern. We let a lot functionally illerates graduate from our public schools, and yet we treat them as schools nevertheless. Schools that don’t educate and prisons that don’t incarcerate will be a fitting epitaph for our civilization.
bobathome (348c8a) — 12/23/2014 @ 12:13 pmI believe the last police officer in Philly was killed when shot by a weapon held inside a coat pocket. He was approaching a suspect from some altercation on a bus when he was gunned down.
There was no mention of a weapon, no obvious evidence of a weapon, but too much time given by the police officer for the suspect to take his hands out of his pocket.
Leviticus, start approaching work every morning thinking that some morning your office desk will be booby-trapped and will explode and kill you if you do not take the proper precautions.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 12:23 pmBetter yet, tell one of your office mates to sometime in the next two years plant some little device that goes off harmlessly when triggered, and you’ll pay them $1,000 if you don’t catch it and consider it a cheap life lesson compared to the dead cop on North Broad Street.
Leviticus,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 12:32 pmfrom what I saw, the incident had begun long before that clip. I have little idea what really happened there, accept that the police were legitimately scared of the suspect. Perhaps they made a mistake in judgment, but they were not under the impression that they were shooting a harmless unarmed man for fun.
I guess that what we need to do is replace all white police officers with black police officers;
Meh. The police culture will not change. Cops are not black or white among themselves, they’re blue. And everybody else is just a different shade of not-blue. We saw it with the Louis Gates Cambridge kerfuffle when the black lady cop berated Obama for taking sides against the police.
The ancient Athenian police were slave Scythian archers, BTW. You heard right. Slaves. Public property. Good policy. It made as much sense to resent them as it did to resent the Parthenon. The citizens took it out on the elected rulers. In that regard, De Blasio is a weasel for not saying “my cops, my watch, my fault if any”.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:11 pm“Leviticus, start approaching work every morning thinking that some morning your office desk will be booby-trapped and will explode and kill you if you do not take the proper precautions.
Better yet, tell one of your office mates to sometime in the next two years plant some little device that goes off harmlessly when triggered, and you’ll pay them $1,000 if you don’t catch it and consider it a cheap life lesson compared to the dead cop on North Broad Street.”
– MD in Philly
Does my new approach to work come with permission to shoot anyone I think appears to maybe be holding or reaching for (or concealing) a bomb-making gizmo, without fear of repercussion?
Because that’s the other half of the analogy.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:16 pmIn seeking common ground in this discussion, do we all agree that cops who kill a person that happens to be unarmed should not be cops anymore?
Should we at least require cops to bet their job on pulling a trigger?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:18 pmAbsolutely, cops will be put in difficult positions and will sometimes make mistakes in those positions. I’m talking about structural incentives for caution.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:19 pmIn seeking common ground in this discussion, do we all agree that cops who kill a person that happens to be unarmed should not be cops anymore?
No
JD (86a5eb) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:23 pmNo.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:41 pmNo. This assumes by default that the police officer acted inappropriately and that is not always the case. At times, in that split-second decision making moment, and given distinct possibility that the culprit might be withdrawing a weapon or going to use bodily force on the officer or an innocent bystander, to fire at the perpetrator may be the most prudent decision made. What if that decision to shoot and kill saves innocent lives?
Dana (8a69ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:47 pmMy daughter’s best friend’s father is a cop. In a decent Chicago suburb that borders a not so decent one. I don’t want him betting his life against his ability to provide for his little girl any more than he already does.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:51 pmOk, so then what do you guys propose in terms of structural incentives for caution?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 1:54 pmThe same as for private citizens, with the addition of care in recruitment and training. Cops 6’6″ and 300 lbs who don’t need guns because they can insert the bullets manually, and their mere presence de-escalates a situation. Being trained when to withdraw from the threat of force, which as a general rule they are not permitted to now, and call for backup and negotiators.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:02 pmForgot the question mark. ?
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:03 pm“What if that decision to shoot and kill saves innocent lives?”
– Dana
What if it costs innocent lives? With Garner and Boyd and Tamir Rice and others, that was the case, and that’s what people are angry about. (I’ll stipulate to Brown’s non-innocence, for purposes of this discussion).
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:04 pmNo. There are repercussions for police officers who abuse or exceed their authority. We can make rules and procedures for the police to follow, but it’s neither fair nor practical to micromanage the results from hindsight. Your approach means the police must guarantee they will never mistake a phone for a gun or knife, a standard that is unreasonable.
The bargain we make in our society is that we give the police authority to detain and question us, and we have to submit in a non-aggressive, non-threatening manner. In return, they submit to having their decisions second-guessed, with the possibility of job and civil sanctions for mistakes (like the rest of us face if we make mistakes), as well as criminal punishment. I think the issue many protesters don’t get is that once someone fails to submit or obey police orders, the rules change for the police. That person becomes a potential threat and resistance makes the situation escalate.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:10 pmGarner wasn’t innocent. His crime was minor but that wasn’t his mistake. His mistake was resisting, compounded by poor judgment because his physical condition made resisting dangerous.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:12 pmI agree with news #65.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:14 pmAutocorrect is not my friend. I agree with Nk #65.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:15 pmWhat about Tamir Rice? What was his crime?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:15 pmWhat I don’t understand, Leviticus, is why you are reluctant to hold a suspect responsible that has repeatedly disobeyed an order to surrender, to lay face down, to raise their arms, to put their hands up in full sight, to stop in their tracks, whatever the command might be from the police officer, and instead they choose to exacerbate and escalate the situation. This is now a much different situation, and one that clearly puts the officer at risk – as well as the suspect disobeying a direct order. Shouldn’t that make a difference in your assessment?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:15 pmAaarrgh. Nk #165.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:16 pmTamir Rice was a tragedy and I suspect the officer will be punished and possibly jailed. It’s very sad but you know as well as I do that our system of justice can’t stop all bad things from happening. In that case, however, I think the police department’s screening may have also been at fault. That’s why nk’s 165 is relevant. It’s not just the officer’s judgment that matters. It’s also about who they employ and how they train them.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:20 pmI take arguments about “resisting” with a grain of salt.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:21 pmThank you, DRJ. The size part cannot happen, I was half-joking. What can happen is selection of people who go with professional motives — job security in civil service, good pay, good benefits — with their heads on straight. No “Harry Callahans”, no “Bad Lieutenants”.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:25 pmLeviticus at 172,
In the Rice case, from all that we’ve learned, it’s very questionable why the young officer who shot Rice was even on the force. Clearly, he had emotional issues and was unstable. IIRC, the other officer had some anger issues or charges of excessive force against him at one point. I think this case cannot be lumped in with Garner or Brown’s. They are not similar in that Rice was not committing a crime as the other two were, nor was he resisting in any way. It’s horrible all the way around.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:25 pm“Tamir Rice was a tragedy and I suspect the officer will be punished and possibly jailed.”
– DRJ
I’m not trying to be a jerk, but why the different treatment of Rice? If it is unreasonable to expect cops to be able to differentiate a phone (or a plastic spoon) from a gun or knife, isn’t it unreasonable to expect cops to be able to differentiate a fake gun from a real gun?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:27 pmAlso, do you change the policy based on a tragedy like Tamir Rice or do you keep the policies intact because of situations like Garner and Brown, where clear orders were given by the officers involved and clear refusals to obey were made by the suspects?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:28 pmAnd the Rice case involved in imperfect info from dispatch.
JD (c26b38) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:29 pmThis nonsense about unarmed is nonsense.
JD (c26b38) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:30 pmIn the Rice case, and based solely on what I’ve read so it could be wrong, it appears the officer started shooting immediately and without time to assess the situation. But I also read the officer may have been given conflicting information by the dispatcher, so I’m willing to be corrected.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:31 pmWell, about Tamir Rice … 40 seconds, language, violence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t105tG1Jpd8
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:32 pmI thought there was a question of whether the dispatcher had informed the officers that the 911 caller said a few times that they were sure the gun was fake…
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:33 pmYes, it is unreasonable of me to treat those situations differently, Leviticus. Thank you for pointing that out. I retract my earlier statements about the Rice case, other than to say it is a tragedy.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:34 pmYou take everything about authority with a grain of salt, right?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:36 pmNo, you should not retract your statement about Rice, DRJ. Everything you said before is correct. The cop was not a reasonable person to begin with. And it was a kid. They should have tried ducking and running first; not come out like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:38 pmI blame Dana’s new Interview post for all the movie references. 😉
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:40 pmthis is such a grim thread. I’d like to help lighten the mood, if I may?
https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/k1bG2EPGmI0?autoplay=1&vq=hd720&rel=0&showinfo=0&start=82&end=321
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:40 pmI think all cops should have to wait until they see a gun, and have a shot fired, before they can reasonably assume that a threat is present. An unarmed person, by definition, can never pose any threat whatsoever. Only if the cop is able to dodge the initial shot, should they be able to respond, and then, only in the same manner, a single shot that doesn’t hit the target. Only after doing that, they may then fire to injure, like winging them, or in the hand.
JD (c26b38) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:50 pmtazers are always a thoughtful choice as well
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/23/2014 @ 2:51 pmEven then, leviticus thinks they should be fired, right? Did I misread his ‘structural incentive’? Michael Brown kept goading the officer that he didn’t have the courage to defend himself… imagine if Leviticus’s incredibly hostile policy were in place… imagine how much more aggressive Brown’s robberies and assaults would be with that in mind.
happyfeet, I agree that a taser in the garner case would have been extremely better than a chokehold. Garner had a habit of resisting and was a huge man, as well as very unhealthy, and that’s like being a habitual drunk driver. It caught up with him. But a taser would have saved him for another day (of doing the same stuff).
The video of the rice case is really interesting to me. The car stops so close, and the driver isn’t the man who fired. The other officer exits the car so close to the boy with the very realistic toy gun, and I think that is an impossible situation to be placed in, all but assuring a panicked decision by the officer. I do not know why the car stopped so close… maybe they were getting between the kid and bystanders to protect them. But I think that was part of the issue.
I also think the dispatchers were not on the scene and couldn’t know if the gun was real or not, even if they were told maybe it wasn’t real. Letting the officer make the determination makes sense. The real problem in that instance was that the boy was using something that looked like a gun to threaten people.
I am baffled by Leviticus’s attitude. He wants officers who defend themselves punished, whether they were justified or not. They are guilty automatically. He deems proven criminals innocent, even if they are on video being criminals. This isn’t about justice. It’s about prejudice.
Dustin (2a8be7) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:04 pmIf the dispatcher had passed along the information that the caller said twice on the 911 call that they believed the gun was fake, it would seem that should have given the officers more reason to pause and assess before shooting Rice.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:10 pmLeviticus,
You seem to do a very good job at putting yourself in the shoes of a law abiding unarmed citizen, or nothing worse than a petty thief who would rather run away that shoot spit-balls
but you have shown zero ability to put yourself in the shoes of a police officer.
My son made at least two split second life and death judgment calls in his few years on patrol. He hesitated both times. One time it would have cost him his life, but the hostage (though unclear at the time) yelled “he has a gun” before he shot my son and took evasive maneuvers. His hesitation as a young officer who had never had to shot somebody before could have cost him his life that day; that it didn’t had nothing to do with my son’s judgment, which was lacking. (The individual involved, who was not known to be other than an honest person answering the door, hid the right side of his body behind the door jam despite my son’s ordering him to step into the clear. When he reached to pull his gun from his right side, the hostage yelled and the fellow instead bull rushed my son, knocking him out of the way.
The other situation his hesitation (and that of his partner) saved an innocent person’s life who was setup to be “murdered by cop”. A call went to 911 about a fellow who had just pulled a robbery with a hand gun and a description was given. My son and his partner spotted the guy walking along the sidewalk, got out with guns drawn and ordered him to hold up his hands (which were in his pockets). He did not. At which point they ordered him again, and he did before they shot him. I believe this was not too long after an officer in Philly was killed by a shot through the coat pocket. As it turns out the fellow had just had an argument with someone in the neighborhood who had made the “prank” call. The fellow also had a sister in the police and realized how close he came to being shot, and given the situation, they would have been justified.
Now those two situations are from the life of one cop with about 3 years on patrol. No one hears about the hundreds if not thousands of close calls that happened through out the year where no tragedy occurred.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:16 pm“I think all cops should have to wait until they see a gun, and have a shot fired, before they can reasonably assume that a threat is present. An unarmed person, by definition, can never pose any threat whatsoever. Only if the cop is able to dodge the initial shot, should they be able to respond, and then, only in the same manner, a single shot that doesn’t hit the target. Only after doing that, they may then fire to injure, like winging them, or in the hand.”
– JD
I think cops shouldn’t engage in the unnecessary use of force, as they clearly did in the cases of James Boyd, Jeremy Martin, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, and others.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:18 pma taser in the garner case would have been extremely better than a chokehold
It wasn’t really a chokehold,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:19 pmand I think a tazer may have resulted in his death just as well.
From his medical history, he should have been in the ER instead of selling loosies to begin with.
“You take everything about authority with a grain of salt, right?”
– DRJ
What’s the alternative?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:19 pmLeviticus, my last comment to you. Maybe you answered this before, but I did not see it.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:21 pmLet me know when you post on YouTube how to take into custody a 350+ person who doesn’t want to have hand cuffs put on.
Show me.
“Did I misread his ‘structural incentive’?”
– Dustin
I think so. My structural incentive was, if a cop kills someone, and the person turns out to be unarmed, that cop shouldn’t be a cop anymore.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:22 pmThere are laws and regulations against them using unnecessary force.
JD (726aba) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:23 pmMD in Philly,
How about a guy toting a shotgun?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:28 pmWhy do you persist in this “unarmed” nonsense?
JD (36111f) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:34 pmWhat “unarmed” nonsense?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:35 pmThe idea that an unarmed person can pose no threat to an officer is absolute nonsense.
JD (7059cc) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:36 pmnothing to see here:
http://dailysignal.com/2014/12/22/exclusive-taxpayers-fund-legal-group-role-rap-video-killing-police-officers/
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:36 pm“The idea that an unarmed person can pose no threat to an officer is absolute nonsense.”
– JD
Good point. I never said that, though.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:38 pmThen why do you keep using that as your hindsight metric?
JD (7059cc) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:41 pmThat’s what I thought you meant. So a cop is punished, harshly, with a loss of her career, if a cop defends themselves justifiably. Guilty no matter what actually happened.
Dustin (2a8be7) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:43 pmThe sad Tamir Rice story has this added important detail to consider but it is seldom explained properly in the media. He had an airsoft gun. Airsoft guns have (are manufactured with) an orange or dayglow safety cap on them so they can be readily identified by anyone, even from a considerable distance as a sport gun and not a weapon to hurt people.
I do not know how Tamir acquired the airsoft gun or if he was the one who removed the cap or if someone else did. If the bright orange cap had been in its proper place it’s a very good bet that Tamir would be alive today. Without the orange cap the police officer was looking down the barrel of a gun that looked real. And I am going to assume that the individual who removed the safety feature wanted that airsoft gun to look real. Sooo, was Tamir armed or unarmed?
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/tamir_rice_shooting_what_is_an.html
elissa (4d84c9) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:44 pmIn the Third Book of Moses, comment 134, it was written:
If you are a robber, sometimes the consequences of your crimes don’t exactly follow the genteel script.
The practical Dana (1b79fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:44 pmI keep using it as a hindsight metric because it seems illustrate a common theme: cop kills someone; cop says he thought the guy was armed; guy was not armed; Grand Jury shrugs; nothing happens.
My foresight metric is “if a cop engages in the unnecessary use of force, that cop shouldn’t be a cop anymore.”
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:46 pmThere’s more I could go into, for example officers not having perfect knowledge about whether someone is actually armed, in the moment (or the dark). Or officers being disarmed if they do not stop an attacker. Or an officer’s responsibility in many cases to arrest someone who isn’t ‘armed’ (I take it leviticus is saying your fists aren’t weapons).
Regardless, I just think uses of force should be investigated and justice brought. You know, after we know if the officer was reasonable or criminal or whatever.
Dustin (2a8be7) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:50 pm“That’s what I thought you meant. So a cop is punished, harshly, with a loss of her career, if a cop defends themselves justifiably. Guilty no matter what actually happened.”
– Dustin
You are the one adding the word “justifiably” into that sentence; doesn’t that beg the question a bit? As JD points out, there may be times where a cop fears serious bodily injury from an unarmed individual (e.g. Michael Brown); there may also be times where a cop shoots a fleeing suspect in the back then says (after the fact) “I thought he had a gun.” One may illustrate a justifiable use of force, the other may illustrate an unjustifiable use of force.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:51 pmIn seeking common ground in this discussion, do we all agree that cops who engage in the unnecessary use of force should not be cops anymore?
Or that cops who are found to have engaged in the unnecessary use of force should not be cops anymore?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:53 pmIn the Third Book of Moses, it was asked:
Brandishing a firearm. Yeah, he was just a kid, and yeah, he was just playing around, but it was reported as a man with a gun, and the police responded to that call. You won’t like this answer at all, but young Mr Rice was killed by his own stupidity.
The coldly realistic Dana (1b79fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:57 pm“What if that decision to shoot and kill saves innocent lives?”
– Dana
What if it costs innocent lives? With Garner and Boyd and Tamir Rice and others, that was the case, and that’s what people are angry about. (I’ll stipulate to Brown’s non-innocence, for purposes of this discussion).
Leviticus, while the Rice case was horrible, I believe it is different than the Brown or Garner case as they both willfully disobeyed the orders of the police officers. Shouldn’t that decision that they made play into your thought that if an unarmed suspect is shot and killed by a police officer, that officer should not be able to be a policeman? Doesn’t the culpability of the suspect factor into your assessment at all? Because from here, it appears you believe – by default – every policeman that kills an unarmed suspect is guilty of an intent to kill as if they willfully chose to do that instead of choosing another option. Except that at times, because of what visual information there is available in that moment, there isn’t another option to choose from.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:02 pmAn Airsoft is not a firearm, it’s a toy gun. And he was a kid. A kid playing with a toy gun. And the cop who killed him is not worth so much more than the kid was, far as I’m concerned and as far as any decent person should be concerned, that we should elevate his cowardice and callousness to justification.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:04 pm“You won’t like this answer at all, but young Mr Rice was killed by his own stupidity.”
– The coldly realistic Dana
You’re right. I don’t like that answer at all.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:07 pmelissa @ 210,
According to this, a friend lent Tamir a black toy pistol used to fire plastic pellets. It was because Tamir was walking through the park, waving it around that a citizen made the 911 call.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:08 pmI had a lot of toy guns as a kid, and I played with them outside. So did my brother, and our friends. Call me biased, but I don’t think a cop would have been justified in killing us for the crime of brandishing a firearm.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:09 pmnk, I don’t think anyone has attempted to justify the shooting of young Tamir. How could it be? However, elissa makes the point that the air soft gun *looked* like a real gun especially as the orange cap was removed. And as 220 points out, he was waving it around like a real pistol. I can see where it could be misleading. But again, if the 911 dispatch operator had informed the officers that the caller said several times that she thought it might be a toy gun, shouldn’t that have given them pause before reacting?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:11 pmAgain, who is justifying the shooting of Tamir?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:12 pm“Leviticus, while the Rice case was horrible, I believe it is different than the Brown or Garner case as they both willfully disobeyed the orders of the police officers. Shouldn’t that decision that they made play into your thought that if an unarmed suspect is shot and killed by a police officer, that officer should not be able to be a policeman? Doesn’t the culpability of the suspect factor into your assessment at all? Because from here, it appears you believe – by default – every policeman that kills an unarmed suspect is guilty of an intent to kill as if they willfully chose to do that instead of choosing another option.”
– Dana
I’m not making any assumption about a police officer’s intent or desire to kill based upon the fact that they kill someone. Intent is a question for criminal courts; if a police officer is found to have committed an intentional unjustified homicide, that police officer should be prosecuted under the same laws as anyone else.
What I am talking about is an administrative decision to terminate the employment of police officers who utilize force that in hindsight (yes, in hindsight) proves to have been unnecessary. It’s not personal. It’s just a business decision. We want people to trust the judgment of police? Don’t employ police who demonstrate fatally poor judgment. We want police officers to carefully consider the use of deadly force? Incentivize careful consideration.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:16 pmJD sarcastically wrote:
In one of the funniest movies ever, Rustler’s Rhapsody, Tom Berenger plays Rex O’Herlihan, a singing cowboy and certified Good Guy. As a Good Guy, when he had to use his weapons, he always aimed to shoot the guns out of the Bad Guys’ hands. There’s a scene in which he’s practicing with wooden targets of hands holding six-shooters.
Well, the real Bad Guys hire “Wrangler” Bob Barber, played by John Wayne’s son Patrick, purportedly another Good Guy, but in their final shootout, it is revealed that Mr Barber isn’t such a good guy:
Rex: “You’re not a good guy at all!”
Bob: “I’m a lawyer, you idiot!” And Mr Barber takes dead aim on Mr O’Herlihan’s pumpkin head. Rex fires first, and Bob goes down. Peter, the former town drunk and now Rex’s sidekick rushes up, looks at Bob laying there, and exclaims, “Rex, Rex, you shot him in the head! How do you feel about that?”
The movie fan Dana (1b79fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:16 pmBob: “I missed his hand.”
Again, does anyone agree that cops who engage in the unnecessary use of force should not be cops anymore?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:17 pmIn the Third Book of Moses it was written:
The problem is that, whether you like it or I like it, it is true nevertheless.
I regret that the incident happened, and the officer who killed Mr Rice was apparently not the best policeman around, but the facts which presented themselves to the police were that a young man with a gun had been brandishing it, and when ordered to halt and put his hands up, young Mr Rice reached instead for his waistband, supposedly moving it toward the toy gun. You can call that the inexperience of youth, or a kid who thought he was still playing, but it winds up being just plain stupidity.
This has all been captured on surveillance video, corroborating the officers’ story:
The brutally honest Dana (1b79fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:28 pmIt was asked in the Third Book of Moses:
Not as a blanket statement, no; “unnecessary use of force” needs to be more narrowly defined, because it can be something minor rather than something major. Further, due process in both the police department’s internal procedures and in the law must be followed.
When I look at the Eric Garner case, I see a situation where it was necessary to use force to attempt to arrest a resisting suspect, but that the force used may possibly have included a technique banned by NYPD procedure. Sometimes a justifiable action has unintended bad consequences.
The Dana answering directly (1b79fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:35 pmAgain, who is justifying the shooting of Tamir?
The multi-faceted Dana:
What about Tamir Rice? What was his crime?
Brandishing a firearm. Yeah, he was just a kid, and yeah, he was just playing around, but it was reported as a man with a gun, and the police responded to that call. You won’t like this answer at all, but young Mr Rice was killed by his own stupidity.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:38 pmThe coldly realistic Dana (1b79fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:57 pm
I think cops who habitually use unnecessary force should not be cops anymore. If it’s an isolated incident, a lesser punishment should be called for. Anybody can lose control some time. But I agree, bullies should not be cops.
The thing is that other cops will weed them out. They don’t like bullies and triggerhappy chicken***ts, either, because 1) they’re decent people too, and 2) they pay for the resentments bad cops create.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:45 pmThanks, nk, I didn’t see that.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:49 pm==I had a lot of toy guns as a kid, and I played with them outside. So did my brother, and our friends. Call me biased, but I don’t think a cop would have been justified in killing us for the crime of brandishing a firearm.==
I do not want to belabor the point but I am guessing that the ones here who are poo-pooing and minimizing the perception of a threat by calling Tamir’s weapon “a toy gun” have never actually seen airsoft or held one in their hand. I have. My best and oldest friend’s son has been attending airsoft camps and participating in airsoft “war game” weekends throughout high school and college with the full support of his parents. They also learn how to survive/track/forage in the woods, how to dress for various temps and weather conditions, how to build shelter, how to cook over a campfire, and how to perform first aid and CPR. The airsoft guns are checked and verified for the safety cap daily. If your weapon doesn’t have it you can’t play and you go home.
This airsoft is not a toy gun from Woolworths like your gramma got you for Christmas or a Lone Ranger model silver pistol cap gun with embossed stars on it.
elissa (4d84c9) — 12/23/2014 @ 4:54 pmI think the best way to incentivize professional behavior by the police is to choose them based on reasonable (by that I mean not PC) standards, assure them of regular professional training, provide them with high-quality car and lapel cameras, and make sure the police department has their backs unless and until it is proven they did something that violates the standard of care.
As for how I view authority, I think people in positions of authority are entitled to respect until it is shown to be incompetent or corrupt. I feel this way about citizens’ behavior toward federal, state and local leaders and police, and about children’s behavior with principals, teachers, adults, and parents. That’s why I tried to always say “President Obama” after the 2008 election, and why I call him “Obama” now.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:05 pmAPD has lapel cameras. That’s how this video was captured.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:11 pmI fail to see your point, although I’m increasingly of the opinion that your point is we should never trust the police. If so, it reminds me of the ’60’s.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:21 pmMy point is video isn’t the only answer but it helps us know what happened. That’s the goal, isn’t it?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:22 pmMy point is that lapel cams didn’t stop that cop from shooting a fleeing homeless guy in the back.
My point is not that we should never trust the police. My point is that we should hold them to an extremely high standard.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:23 pmSorry, we cross-posted. I agree with your point that lapel cams help us understand how these things happen, and are a good thing.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:25 pmIt truly depends. I think generalizing to the extreme degree you are now, to claim that the officers did no more than kill someone for playing with toys, is not very fair.
A kid was pointing a very realistic looking prop gun at people. He wasn’t really playing cowboys and indians. When cops arrived, he reached for the airsoft gun. That’s a lot different than two kids playing with super soakers. Why do you fail to make the distinction?
Dustin (9b8eed) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:26 pmCameras alone won’t instill professionalism, in police or in lawyers. And let’s hold them both to extremely high standards, but they should be fair standards. That means we should listen and try to understand when lawyers explain why they do what they do, and ditto for police officers.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:26 pmBecause it was a 12 year old kid!
Let’s pretend the kid had a real gun. Everything else unfolds in identical fashion. Justified shooting?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:29 pmhey stop fanning the flames
happyfeet (831175) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:30 pm(Last comment was in response to Dustin)
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:30 pmTo piggyback on Dustin’s comment, the park that he was waving the air soft gun around in was notorious for crime, gangs and fights. So much so that families were no longer permitting their children to go there. Given that, the officers may have been more geared up in anticipation of the worse, and especially if the dispatch message hadn’t reached them.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:32 pmHave you considered going into law enforcement, Leviticus? Perhaps you could make a difference from the inside or at the very least might acquire useful new insights about policing. I personally know two attorneys who went to law school in their mid 30’s. One after being a beat cop and one after being a detective. They both say they feel they understand their clients and juries better than many of their peers as a result of this two-stage career journey.
elissa (4d84c9) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:33 pm“Have you considered going into law enforcement, Leviticus?”
– elissa
No, I haven’t.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:36 pmooh look it’s a picture of leviticus
happyfeet (831175) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:40 pmI don’t know that it would have been a justified shooting but it’s hard to know the truth based on initial media reports. Hypothetically, though:
1. The 911 dispatcher story doesn’t bother me because it’s the officer’s duty to assess the situation when he arrives at the scene. It’s helpful to have the dispatcher’s information and even better that it’s accurate, but the people who call 911 aren’t always accurate so, to me, the dispatcher issue is largely a red herring. It does, however, tell us something about the officer’s state of mind. In this case, the officer thought he was arriving at the scene of a potential active shooter.
2. However, like nk, if it’s true that the officer started shooting within seconds after arriving at the scene, I’d like to know why. Did it appear someone was going to be hurt if he didn’t act? If not, was there a place to take cover, such as behind the police car’s doors? It looks like the officer shot first, without really knowing what the situation was. That seems like a violation of police standards, and that concerns me.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:41 pmHahahaha… man, I look pretty beat up in that picture
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:42 pmAs the son of a firefighter, I grew up around police officers. Some are good, and some are bad. Just like anyone else. My father taught me to always watch my Ps and Qs around people with guns. That’s just good sense.
I do think that people who feel strongly about this sort of thing should do some ride-alongs, to see what it is actually like out there. Fact is, police officers can take their lives into their hands on any given traffic stop. It’s cheap and easy to label without knowledge. Especially with a Clerisy Class who push a particular meme mercilessly.
For example, I am far, far more concerned with Blacks killing Blacks than police killing Blacks. Look at the statistics. I think we should spend all this emotion and time and national angst on the former.
But that doesn’t fit the meme so well, I’m afraid.
Are there bad cops? Sure. Are their bad pundits who lie and exaggerate for personal gain…sometimes costing lives? Yep. And far more people die from the latter than the former, I believe.
Just ask Al Sharpton.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:42 pm🙂
happyfeet (831175) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:42 pmLet’s pretend the kid had a real gun. Everything else unfolds in identical fashion. Justified shooting?
No. Voluntary manslaughter; official misconduct. He was too quick on the trigger from my view of the video. It was a twelve-year old kid!
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:45 pmWe cross-posted, DRJ.
I don’t think Leviticus is bellowing, happyfeet. The discussion is academic, even if it does use real-life examples.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:49 pm“My father taught me to always watch my Ps and Qs around people with guns. That’s just good sense.”
– Simon Jester
That is my position as well. That, and not disobeying or insulting police officers. But it’s not out of respect, it’s out of fear and distrust, and that is a disturbing realization.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:49 pmThe person who phoned in the report in Cleveland said he thought it might not be a real gun.
I don’t know why he thought so, but it maybe was because he was waving it around for a long time and never fired it. Maybe somebody even knew.
The policemen who responded to the call did not get that detail. They arrived there, saw him waving around a gun, ordered him to do something, and when he didn’t immediately do it, shot him within two seconds after they got there.
He’d been doing that for many minutes, but they treated this like he had just started. Or one policeman did.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:50 pmI agree with your assessment of the Tamir Rice shooting, nk.
Also, I think happyfeet is being sarcastic.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:51 pmIt seems Leciticus’ hypothetical has evolved.
JD (7376b7) — 12/23/2014 @ 5:57 pmSimon, I worked for the Chicago Crime Commission in the six months before entering law school. I’ve been on a ride-along in Cabrini Green in 1979. I also monitored the police and the criminal courts day to day. I am also a Chicago Police Academy dropout (a man’s got to know his limitations) (not a washout, they tried to talk me out of it). As a lawyer, I dealt with the police all the time. They would call me to tell me they had a warrant for my client and could I bring him in or send him in, sometimes. One time, I was lent two detectives and I went on a ride-along with them to recover a six-year old girl child-napped by the father, pursuant to a protective order I had gotten. And one of my undergrad majors was Criminal Justice.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:00 pmHow many people lost their lives at the hands of the police in 2014?
JD (7376b7) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:01 pmre #225: that doesn’t look correct.
seeRpea (0fd3b6) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:06 pmI remember your background, nk. Remember, I get to hear um, simplistic memes being repeated pretty much every day on campus. And from people who consider themselves wise and well informed. Here is a true story.
I was on a committee that tried to monitor “hate speech” on campus. It caused me all kinds of intestinal distress…people who were very very sensitive on some issues, but all Thugs and Money in others. Sheesh.
Anyway, one meeting a faculty member brought up that someone had scrawled “hate speech” on a blackboard in the library. We tend to some of that distasteful nonsense from time to time, like most places.
The hate speech? Someone had written “Freedom is Slavery.”
I laughed out loud. Everyone looked at me. They didn’t know the source. I convinced them it was attempt to make the committee look silly if they responded.
The meme is strong.
Getting back to police officers, I think that very few people who don’t have family members in that profession understand the risks. I constantly hear silliness like “shoot to wound,” etc.
Again, folks who feel strongly about this should gain the experience you have, and I have described. Otherwise it is just more meme-ish nonsense. Which is common, clear up to the Oval Office.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:07 pmJD, that is my point. It’s funny. People would be all ashamed and nervous to say that they felt afraid around Black people in the inner city…but being afraid around cops? That’s okay.
Despite the statistics.
Let me be clear: it’s always wrong to stereotype anyone according to group. Yet we all seem to do it.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:09 pmHow many police people lost their lives at the hands of civilians in 2014?
JD (a1193c) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:27 pmI don’t know. Do you?
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:29 pmHere’s some information on the subject. Link.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:31 pmI’m not necessarily vouching for the quality of the sources.
Leviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:31 pmLet me Google that for you.
2014 is not over, settle for 2013? 320
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_2013
14,196 murders/non-negligent homicides per the FBI.
nk (dbc370) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:33 pmhttp://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/4tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_4_crime_in_the_united_states_by_region_geographic_division_and_state_2012-2013.xls
Simon- You have my admiration and respect. I’d go absolutely bat bonkers if I had to put up with the campus political nonsense you do just because you happen to think young people should learn science and you want to teach it to them. What a shame it is that such levels of extraneous silliness and pearl clutching accompany collegiate academics anymore, and seem to take up so much valuable time and energy that could be better spent..
elissa (4d84c9) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:33 pmDRJ-
Car doors provide concealment, not cover. Even pistol rounds can go through at least one car door, if not two.
Roy in Nipomo (8c3b61) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:42 pmhttp://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-3-pistols-and-car-doors/
That is a revealing question. Obviously if the officer knows there is no actual threat they should not use deadly force. I think every reasonable person feels that way.
Whether the object the kid reaches for looks like the left or the right one in this picture is not relevant to the officer’s decisions being justifiable. You are asserting that information the officer cannot possibly know will determine whether her actions were ultimately “necessary”, and that if the officer’s reasonable decisions, based on a need to protect the public from a person waving an apparent real gun around, failed to take into account information that was impossible to have, that officer is guilty and must be punished.
That’s just great.
Dustin (9b8eed) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:50 pmLeviticus (9382da) — 12/23/2014 @ 3:28 pm
Note, in polite English these days I do not know how to express the degree of outrage that others would express with a list of cussing,
so, I will just say, what in “the world” does an article about police talking a suicidal guy into coming out of an apartment without his weapon have to do with an armed robber holding two hostages hiding behind a door jam 1 second from murdering my son?
You are smarter than this, I don’t know what is blinding you, and I’m not going to try to find out.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:16 pmThe officer did not know that the kid – whose age, I think, he estimated as 20 when he shot him – or at least he said so later – had been waving around that gun for a good number of minutes without firing it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/12-year-old-tamir-rice-shot-cleveland-autopsy-article-1.2043229
(George Zimmerman also raised his estimate of Trayvon Martin’s age from his earlier correct estimate after he’d been attacked.) Being threatening does that kind of thing.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:16 pmRoy,
That makes sense and I believe you, but I still think a car door would provide some protection for the officer to assess the situation. In addition, it’s interesting that virtually every campus in America provides information on how to respond to an active shooter. One of the instructions is that if you can’t evacuate, you should take cover behind items “such as brick walls, large trees, retaining walls, parked vehicles or …”
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:18 pmDRJ, the only thing that would stop a bullet on most vehicles would be the engine block.
Gazzer (ae5179) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:21 pmIf a police officer panics and shoots someone with a replica gun that has been altered to remove the identification of it being a replica,
it is a terrible tragedy, maybe the fellow wasn’t meant to be a cop and should be removed or given a position in the bureaucracy of things,
but that has zero bearing on the norm of tens of thousands of cops walking around the nation each day.
If Brown is the “best” you have for a so-called unnecessary shooting by police, and Garner is the “best” you have of unnecessary force, in all of the millions of encounters between police and the public you should consider our nation to be blessed.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:26 pmAccording to the apparent best info we have, what happened to Brown was not a tragedy, though it is sad; what happened to Garner was very said, maybe even tragic, but other than not sitting him up the police acted reasonably; what happened to the child was truly tragic, and maybe that fellow should be off the force, but it too was not an act of willful disregard of human life, as if “black lives don’t matter”.
I’m not disagreeing, Gazzer, although I guess it sounded like I was. My point is that every college student is told one option is to hide behind a vehicle in an active shooter situation. On the one hand, it’s probably better than nothing but, on the other, maybe they shouldn’t say it if it isn’t a good idea. I don’t know.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:28 pmTamir was 5 feet 7 and weighed 195 pounds…
Never let inconvenient facts interfere with a narrative. I don’t think he appeared to be the average 12 yo child.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:29 pmWell, hiding behind a vehicle is different than hiding behind an open car door. First, you may not be seen, second, even if a bullet is not stopped by the engine block it may be deflected and/or lose energy passing through a couple of layers of sheet metal, metal framing, rigid plastic, seats, etc.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:32 pmBut a big tree would be better.
The aim of taking cover is probably not to impede bullets, but to keep out of the shooter’s sight, so he can not directly aim at you. The downside is of course that if his view of you is obstructed, then most likely so is your view of him.
kishnevi (294553) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:34 pm263. JD (a1193c) — 12/23/2014 @ 6:27 pm
I read something to the effect that FBI statistics on this are not complete, but here is something for this year: Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2014 Jan. 12 – Dec. 21
Total 114.
26 were in automobile accidents, 15 heart attacks, 3 motorcycle accidents, 3 struck by vehicles, 2 accidental gunfire, 1 fire, 1 drowned, which looks like 51 non-criminal.
46 by gunfire, 10 vehicular assault, 5 during vehicular pursuit, 2 assault, or 63. I don’t know if any of these incidents involved other policemen, and the 5 killed during vehicular pursuit might belong to the accidental category really.
Also 19 dogs, 5 by gunfire, and 2 stabbed. The rest look accidental or medical.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:37 pmDRJ I was making the point that standing behind a door is not the best possible option.
Gazzer (ae5179) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:38 pmI also wonder how many encounters there are annually between local, county, state, and federal law enforcement – is traffic stops, cops on the beat, bike cops, arrests, etc …. If we accept the numbers at 538 there could be up to 1200 deaths at the hands of the police annually, no distinction between justified and unjustified. That is around 2 per month per state. In comparison to the number of encounters, that seems like it is likely a vanishingly small percentage.
JD (a1193c) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:43 pmMD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:26 pm
It’s not the “best”, but it’s the “best” case that, no matter how many protests Al Sharpton stages, is not very likely to be prosecuted!!
He needs cases where there is no grand jury indictment or even a reprimand for violating regulations. At least at first.
It’s the “best” because the person who died didn’t have a gun. Also, was black, of course..
Also, was killed by a white person or a policeman, preferably both.
Also, there was no warrant out for his arrest, so it can be claimed this is an ordinary innocent person.
Also, he has the family’s backing.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:48 pmAl Sharpton needs resistant local law enforcement.
If he had a real case where it was just to indict…
…at best, he’d have to contrive to prevent an indictmenbt by getting witnesses not to co-operate.
He needs faulty cases.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:53 pmFor some perspective, between Jan. 1, 2014 and today, Dec 23rd, there are 2,500 gunshot victims in the city of Chicago…
http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:58 pmThis is very good:
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:58 pmRoy and Gazzer,
What should the police officer do if he arrives at a scene and finds himself closer to an armed suspect that he intended? I assumed that taking cover — even if only behind the car door — and assessing the situation would be better than shooting at the suspect, but maybe I’m wrong.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/23/2014 @ 7:59 pmDRJ – I suspect that my first instinct, upon arriving on scene at a gang-infested park with reports of someone brandishing a weapon would be to take cover behind anything that might afford even a modicum of protection, including a car door.
JD (a1193c) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:13 pmI’m noticing this has been a particularly good and interesting thread with participation and interaction from a lot of different people who’ve submitted their thoughts, observations and links. It’s felt like a real conversation among real people.
elissa (4d84c9) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:14 pmIt is not necessarily inconsistent to be behind the door and have the engine block also shielding the officer. I am sure that’s what they try to achieve. But it’s just my guess.
Gazzer (ae5179) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:25 pmDRJ, I wasn’t a sworn officer, but ended up seeing a lot of their training material. If they are in their vehicle and too close to an armed suspect, they should try to back away (that way they can still see the subject while driving. If a firearm (or something that looks like one) is pointed at or near them, their training is rarely to observe, cogitate and consider alternatives. If they wait for a “bang” before doing anything, the department chaplain will probably be getting a call-out for their next of kin. Situations can go to slime very quickly.
Hiding behind a car (concealment) is better than just standing there, but behind trees, heavy walls or engine blocks and tire rims(cover) is better.
Roy in Nipomo (8c3b61) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:32 pmThere are your piles of unarmed dead people, most of whom were black men, and most of whom were killed by other black men.
Liberals like Leviticus really — truly — irritate me if they’re, at the same time, residing in some little socio-economic/sociological bubble, particularly in a mostly white suburb or some very gentrified urban community where the local major street isn’t likely to be named in honor of Martin Luther King Jr.
When “black” or “African-American” is cited, some people immediately think of race or racial differences. In my case, when those 2 words or phrases are cited, I immediately think of liberalism or leftism, since surveys indicate that 90-plus percent of black America is of the left. Then I’m reminded why such monolithic ideology — but particularly when it’s of the left — is neither healthy nor sane.
BTW, I wouldn’t think it necessarily a good thing if 90-plus percent of black America, or any other large demographic enclave in the US, for that matter, were rightwing Republican, but certainly if such a populace also were full of dysfunction.
Mark (c160ec) — 12/23/2014 @ 8:35 pm“Liberals like Leviticus really — truly — irritate me if they’re, at the same time, residing in some little socio-economic/sociological bubble, particularly in a mostly white suburb or some very gentrified urban community where the local major street isn’t likely to be named in honor of Martin Luther King Jr.”
– Mark
I actually live one block from Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd. in Albuquerque!
That’s obviously completely irrelevant to anything, at all, but you’re Mark, so I guess YMMV.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:10 pm“I’m noticing this has been a particularly good and interesting thread with participation and interaction from a lot of different people who’ve submitted their thoughts, observations and links. It’s felt like a real conversation among real people.”
– elissa
I definitely agree. I know I just made a grouchy irrational anti-Mark comment that I shouldn’t have made, but I still definitely agree.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:12 pmAnd (on that note) I definitely don’t mean to insult MD’s son by making the points I’m making. His opinions are clearly influenced by his son’s service, as they should be; mine are clearly influenced by living in Albuquerque, with a retrograde police department. I don’t mean to insult his son.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:14 pmLeviticus, what’s your take on 286?
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:17 pmTo clarify, I don’t think you insulted my son, I just don’t think you came anywhere near to a valid point with the article you linked.
And I’m still awaiting your training video on how to gently and politely arrest someone weighing 350+ who refuses to be hand-cuffed.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/23/2014 @ 9:25 pmI actually live one block from Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd. in Albuquerque!
Well, good for you, Leviticus. But, quite seriously, what percentage of your neighbors are black? 5%, 30%, 60%, 90%? FYI, I used to live in a predominantly black community. And have you ever attended a public school that contained a high proportion of black students? FYI, I have.
Mark (c160ec) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:00 pmIn a nation of 340 million the cops killed a grand total of 600.
Someone needs potty training.
http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012/01/police-involved-shootings-2011-annual.html
DNF (d1422a) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:14 pmre #261: why would anyone think “Freedom is Slavery” is hate speech???
seeRpea (0fd3b6) — 12/23/2014 @ 10:45 pm“And I’m still awaiting your training video on how to gently and politely arrest someone weighing 350+ who refuses to be hand-cuffed.”
– MD in Philly
The point I was trying to make with that link was that there are plenty of examples of great policing out there: where cops are patient, and intelligent, and take the time to talk – just talk – a potentially dangerous person out of a potentially dangerous situation.
That is something that could have happened with Eric Garner. That was a frustrated, potentially dangerous guy. Those cops could have talked him down, waited him out. Resolved the situation peacefully. They didn’t need to choke him out. That was unnecessary.
There are plenty of examples of good, patient, communicative policing out there. All I’m trying to do is figure out how we incentivize that patience, that good policing, instead of allowing unnecessary violence that rolls off the backs of indifferent grand juries.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:31 amLeviticus , you are writing as if no one else was there at the Gardener tragedy. Not only were there two superior ranking officers there, there was someone video’ing the encounter – and the cops knew they were being watched. That there were so many other people already there should make one realize that this wasn’t the whole episode. Somethings were going on before this.
seeRpea (0fd3b6) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:48 am301. I know you mean well Son but I just wrapped up 14 years with a vicious, abusive, disturbed academic with a borderline personality whose SSRI was contraindicated by progressive liver damage.
Fourteen inexpressibly long years of forgetting yesterday and starting anew.
The gift you may have witnessed is far rarer than the affliction.
DNF (d37406) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:58 amLeviticus @301
Do you think the video captured the beginning of the contact with Garner? How long were they talking with him? You don’t know and the grand jury did know. They could have been there for an hour. At some point talking has to stop and you have to move on. He was obviously not going to go along and mad his choice, which ultimately killed him. His choice, not the officers.
You said “They didn’t need to choke him out. That was unnecessary.” Well, apparently you were correct about it not being necessary, they didn’t choke him out. The Officer never was in a position to either cut his airway or restrict his carotid and you can’t very well choke someone out with one arm. Not only did he not get into a choke position but I doubt if the Officer was big enough to get his arm around Garners’ neck into a choke hold. His arm only was in the neck area for 13 to 14 seconds. That is not long enough to render someone unconscious, much less kill them.
FYI, cops don’t say, “I got to fight someone today” or “I got to shoot/kill someone today”. It’s always “I had to fight him” or “I had to shoot”. It’s never done lightly and it’s never something they want to do. Even if the cop is as cold and trigger happy as you seem to think the cops are, it’s a pain in the a55 and is best avoided.
You never did answer MD’s question. How would you take someone his size to jail who didn’t want to go to jail? Garner is responsible for his death, not the cops.
labcatcher (61737c) — 12/24/2014 @ 6:10 amlabcatcher (61737c) — 12/24/2014 @ 6:10 am You don’t know and the grand jury did know. They could have been there for an hour. They were there long enough to call in reinforcements. That’s why there were so many policemen there.
It was a very abrupt, and wrong move. It didn’t make things easier.
He said “I can’t breathe.”
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/24/2014 @ 6:17 am11 times. That’s something other than being choked into unconsciousness.
You are condemning people for their decisions, Leviticus. You describe the police as engaging in “unnecessary violence”and grand juries who judge them as “indifferent.” You clearly assume your knowledge is superior to their’s, even though you’ve admitted you have no experience with law enforcement. It also suggests you are exactly what Mark said — a elitist, mentally if not physically.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:02 amDitto to what has been said. Time had been spent talking to Garner for awhile, as at least 4 officers and a sergeant (and another higher rank?) were on the scene. What we saw was the part that got ugly after everything else had failed. He had been arrested 30 times before. He wasn’t getting the hint to stop doing what he was doing.
It is a fine thing to point out examples of excellent police work. But you can’t expect thousands of humans every day to be at their best all of the time, it doesn’t happen. And even if one day every cop was exemplary with every interaction, that would not guarantee that every interaction had a good outcome.
God was the perfect father, and his kids rebelled. Bad outcomes do not necessarily mean bad procedure, and good outcomes are often more luck than skill. My son is alive at least as much because of “luck” than skill in the one incident (though I would say it was God’s providence, not luck; but the point is the same, with the experience he had and the degree of skill he was able to employ, he could have gotten himself and others killed by hesitating).
Are there some police that should be disciplined, some that should be given a desk job if not removed from the force, some that should go to jail? Sure, just like doctors, lawyers, and engineers. But the way to constructively deal with the problem is dealing with the bad examples, not looking for false narratives to throw suspicion on the legitimacy of the whole class. Much if not most of the protests are fomented by and are for the good of anarchists and those looking for a grieved power base.
Instead of citing/using Garner and Brown as examples of how terrible the police are, it could be pointed out how difficult the job of a cop is and for everyone’s sake it is usually better to cooperate with them than resist them and claim you have a right to. If there is misconduct it is better to deal with it after the fact when heads are cooler anyway.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:12 amHe said “I can’t breathe.”
11 times. That’s something other than being choked into unconsciousness.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/24/2014 @ 6:17 am
You are right about that, Sammy. It was severe untreated asthma with perhaps positional factors thrown in as our friend Jack Dunphy pointed out. I think the main reason he did not get more help was that the police were more perplexed than anything. They knew they had done nothing to cause him to not breathe and apparently thought he was faking more than recognizing a medical emergency. If he would have said, “My inhaler, my inhaler…” instead perhaps they would have caught on quick enough. His death is tragic, yes, but not an example of police using too much force, but police and EMS not recognizing a medical emergency.
One saying in medicine is that if the true diagnosis in a situation is not on the initial list of possibilities, it will be difficult to arrive at it. The police, and EMS as well, were not in the mindset of thinking about medical problems Garner might have had, they were in the mindset of “We didn’t do anything to harm this guy, what’s he complaining about?”
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:22 amIt was a very abrupt,
Sammy, what did you want them to do, make an announcement,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:31 am“OK, Mr. Garner, we’ve been talking for 10minutes and you’re still not cooperating with a simple arrest. On the count of three we are going to need to use force to take you down, one, two,” … scuffle from the would-be prisoner getting a jump on the police.
You and Leviticus and a whole bunch of others, probably including the police involved would have liked that to happen and him say, “OK, all right” and hold out his hands to be cuffed before the count of three. The difference between the cops involved and you and Leviticus is that they knew they could not assume (from their past experience) Garner would react that way, and if/when he didn’t, the situation would then be even worse, including worse for Garner (if not for his asthma) because it would have taken even more force to subdue him then..
I’m sure Deblasio would say he’s understood or something:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/12/u-s-offers-reward-ex-gitmo-poet.php
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:35 amMD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:12 am
Just the oppposite, in fact.
He said “This stops now” and essentially therefore, was declaring that he was engaging in an act of civil disobedience.
The type where they offer no co-operation, and sometimes passively resist by playing dead, and force the police to drag them away.
Only his body couldn’t tolerate that.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:37 amSammy, if that’s what he wanted to do, he would have sat down, “This stops now” means, “I’m not going to put up with this sh*t anymore” as he begins to put up a fight.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:43 amThe New York Post just found out that tThere was in fact an anarchist editorial in a CUNY graduate student newspaper on December 3. It’s very jargon heavy and 1,861-words long. CUNY newspaper editorial calls for violent protests
It said that protesters should emulate the Black Panthers and Malcolm X, not Martin Luther King. Jr. and they should be armed but they should not attack store owners, but symbols of authority instead.
“What is needed now is to take the next step from indiscriminate attacks to ones directly pointed at state power as well as at the lackeys and apologists who allow it to prosper” is one thing it said.
It contained a disclaimer at the end of the piece, saying the views are those of Gordon Barnes, the editor-in-chief, alone, and not those of the paper.
The online version had a circled, capital A that symbolizes anarchy.
Barnes, a doctoral student in history, previously studied at the Instituto de Filosofía de Cuba and is a graduate of the Valley Forge Military Academy and Temple and Rutgers universities.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:45 amSammy at 305
I am going to guess that you think the first move was the officer taking him down from the back because you said, “It was a very abrupt, and wrong move. It didn’t make things easier.” If that’s what you meant, you are incorrect. Sammy, the first physical move was the officer facing him reaching out to take Garners’ wrist preparing to handcuff him. The second move was Garner slapping the hand away and pulling back (resisting). The third move was Panatelo initiating the take down and then the ugly take down.
None of us know how long the Officers were there, if the violation was an infraction or misdemeanor or even if Garner had been issued a citation and refused to sign, what knowledge the Officers had of his priors, what Garner said prior to the camera rolling or even if the Sgt on the scene was the one who made the decision to go with an arrest. What happened was ugly and there is much we don’t know, but Garner is the one responsible for his death. Comply and he would be alive today.
Leviticus at 301 said, “There are plenty of examples of good, patient, communicative policing out there.” Leviticus, this may have been one of them. Sometimes stuff happens and people just don’t want to do it the easy or correct way. We don’t know. Perhaps the testimony from the grand jury should be released to answer questions although it didn’t seem to sway the idiots in Ferguson.
labcatcher (61737c) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:51 am“You clearly assume your knowledge is superior to their’s, even though you’ve admitted you have no experience with law enforcement. It also suggests you are exactly what Mark said — a elitist, mentally if not physically.”
– DRJ at 306
My persistent jumping-off point in this discussion has been an extensive DOJ report that found systematic problems with the unnecessary use of force by my hometown police department – often resulting in death. You yourself said, not twelve hours ago, that “[you] read the DOJ’s Albuquerque police department report and it used facts to convince [you] there was merit to the complaints.” You also stated in that same comment that “[you] also looked some of the stories up online and while I don’t think it’s clear every officer was wrong, the sheer volume of complaints gives [you] pause.”
So, if I hold an opinion rooted in one set of data, parts of which you admit to be compelling, how does that make me an “elitist”? Or, if you have since decided that you don’t trust the DOJ report I’ve been talking about, are you “clearly assuming that your knowledge is superior to their’s,” even though they are professional law enforcement types? Does that make you an “elitist” in the same way?
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:22 amMD in Philly and labcatcher,
Garner had barely given them any reason to react like that. It’s as if your child temporarily questioned an order for a moment, and you turned the child upside down and paddled the child with a large wooden board about 60 times. The response is WAAAAY out of proportion to the provocation.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:26 amGarner barely, barely resisted. He didn’t have a chance.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:26 amOn how many instance, Fast and Furious, the Panther pardons, the bogus indictments of Stevens, the railroading of that hacker, who killed himself, the tapping of James Rosen, do you have to see, to doubt the veracity of the Justice Department?
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:27 amYou see how a partner at Covington and Burling, was one who insisted that Rubbaish was not a threat,
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:31 amwell it turns out he was tragically wrong, this is the overseas angle of the Sharpton con,
Leviticus, I don’t know if you’ve read what we’ve said. If you have, you apparently think the facts of the case are different from our view of the facts of the case. As long as we do not agree with the facts of the matter, there is no reason to bother discussing perceptions or opinions on it.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:33 am318. Stevens was done by the career people. But they could be a problem.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:38 amyet Welch and Morrow, we put back on the case, to go after the Merlin leak and politicians in Alabama,
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:43 amWe ought to give the Third Book of Moses a break here: he is really upset with the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner and Tamir Rice, and what he sees as policemen too quick to resort to physical force, but he has been forced into silly positions because he really has no case here: the people who died in these incidents — and now we can add Antonio Martin — all took actions which contributed to their own deaths.
What Leviticus needs here to make his case is an incident in which an unarmed black kid was gunned down by a white police officer for absolutely no reason at all, and it would help if he could find a link which said that the police officer was a registered Republican and Assistant Grand Poobah of the local Ku Klux Klan chapter. Unfortunately for Leviticus, and the left in general, we don’t seem to be seeing those cases.
Leviticus is like the public defender trying to represent an obviously guilty perpetrator; all of the evidence is against him, and he has no case, but he’s gamely plowing straight ahead, because he just can’t quit.
The forgiving Dana (1b79fa) — 12/24/2014 @ 8:55 am“What Leviticus needs here to make his case is an incident in which an unarmed black kid was gunned down by a white police officer for absolutely no reason at all.”
– The forgiving Dana
Man, if only I could find a case like that…
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/24/2014 @ 9:02 amDo you have one?
Patterico (fcf49b) — 12/24/2014 @ 9:11 amGarner barely, barely resisted. He didn’t have a chance.
But he did have a chance in that he had been warned how many times not to sell the “loosies”. He had many chances in spite of having been arrested by the NYPD “thirty times since 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, and grand larceny.” These were all choices he made on how to live his life. These were all chances he chose to take, resulting in a life which set him against abiding by the law. Why, on that fateful day, was he still resisting arrest in any way, to any degree? Why not just completely surrender and submit himself to the orders of the police officers at that instant? He did have a chance. Unless you believe that the intent of the officers was to end his life.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/24/2014 @ 9:30 am“Do you have one?”
– Patterico
Nope!
Leviticus (c1d138) — 12/24/2014 @ 9:41 amnot even one, how can that be?
narciso (ee1f88) — 12/24/2014 @ 9:51 amLeviticus, Here’s something that you might try to help you understand how difficult it is to arrest a resisting suspect. In the Academy it was called the 2 on 1 drill.
Get two friends. Have the smaller one be the suspect male/female no matter. Tell the suspect that he or she is to passively resist being arrested, folding arms, twisting, turning pulling away etc. You and your 2nd friend “arrest” the resister and tie or otherwise restrain the “Suspect”. You can’t hurt the suspect, no strikes and no pain or neck holds. Let me know how that works for you. I guarantee that Garner was cuffed up in less time than it will take you to arrest your friend.
I think you will be amazed at how long it will take you to get him or her restrained. I know I was when they had the two largest in our class try to cuff the smallest in the class. It was not easy. Overwhelming force applied quickly is much, much safer for both officers and suspects. This is not speculation, this is experience. Once Garner pulled away, the arrest was on. He was not injured, he died from his existing conditions.
labcatcher (61737c) — 12/24/2014 @ 9:59 amHe didn’t have a chance. Really? So what? I can’t believe you said that. There wasn’t a referee either. Grow up, this is not a contest, bad guys are not supposed to have a chance when it comes to a fight. He chose to fight the cops chose to do what was necessary to keep anyone from getting hurt. He didn’t get hurt from fighting he died from health issues.
If he wants a chance, he should do what Dana said and take his chance in court.
labcatcher (61737c) — 12/24/2014 @ 10:07 amSeveral people have commented on the polite discussion and it was polite, which is always nice, but I think it’s been a waste of time. It’s also stupid to waste time in a useless effort, so my New Year’s resolution is not to waste time like this again.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/24/2014 @ 10:45 amI didn’t see labcatcher’s comment 330 — responding to Leviticus’ comment 317 — before I posted my last comment, but I agree with labcatcher. Leviticus’ inability to see that simple fact is why I’m giving up on this conversation and other’s like it.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/24/2014 @ 10:49 amThe comment that drew labcatcher’s “grow up” was a direct quote of Patterico, for the record.
Leviticus (8818d2) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:00 amThis war on civilians by the cops, it accounts for fatalities in around 1/2 of 1%, or less, of all police-civilian interactions.
JD (86a5eb) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:04 amLeviticus, What is getting in some people’s craw I think it is your reliance on the DOJ report about your hometown LE coupled with your apparent unquestioning buy- in of incomplete or misleading media reports about recent events that then seem to inform all your beliefs and all your assumptions about police interactions and policing quality everywhere in the country. Just because some towns are proven to have a poor police culture, or a few cities elect a crooked mayor, or a person has a bad doctor who misdiagnoses her doesn’t mean that that transference logically works across the board with all police departments or mayors or doctors in the country. If you’ve got a problem in NM by all means work to understand it and fix it.
Your use throughout the thread of the phrase “find a way to incentivize better cop behavior” smacks more of the type of process for training dogs or husbands to do what you want, than staffing and operating a professional police force where the officers often need to make spit-second life and death decisions without pulling out a checklist. .
elissa (6762bc) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:16 amWhat is the edit in the Garner video right before he is taken down? What took place right beforehand that we do not see? Did the grand jury see it?
I was disturbed when I first saw this video, and it’s still disturbing to watch, but I think we have to trust the process. There are things I learned since I first watched it — the officer no longer has his arm around Garner’s neck when he says he can’t breathe (pointed out to me by someone here); there is dispute about whether the tactic used was actually a chokehold that is prohibited by the department; Garner had a record including violence (assault and resisting arrest) . . . and I’m just inclined to trust the grand jury’s decision.
Patterico (227090) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:20 amchristmas hugs is how we gonna put out those flames
lots of christmas hugs
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:21 amnext year is gonna be better i promise
I can’t remember the last time I turned over a 350lb. child and paddled him with a large wood board. I’m wracking my brain.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:28 ammaybe it was at furrycon last year?
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:31 amAgain, the issue here is from people who don’t have experience on the street (not you, nk). Believe me, I see students talk all tough about police officers in class and on the Internet all the time. Few of them act that way when they interact with police. Nor should they. It’s like the internet, I guess.
The problem as always is the creation of a meme which is, despite the sound of this, ignorant. I think that every person who is very concerned about police brutality go work the streets with police for a couple of weeks. Personally. You would not be allowed to do so, because it isn’t safe.
Let me repeat: it’s not safe. Unlike holding forth on campus, or on the internet.
Are there bad cops? Sure. What percentage? The same people talking this way about police would be aghast at using the same approach discussing, for example, Black people as criminals. It’s progressive meme nonsense.
Finally, and it makes me so sad to recall this, all the energy and effort expended on all this protest nonsense is not devoted to Black on Black violence. I mean, if we are going to think statistically.
That’s because the latter does not serve a progressive political meme. And that is all that is important to the Left at present.
Lenin put it best long ago.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:34 amBut yes, that was my initial impression: he really didn’t have much chance to comply. Indeed, when I read over the thread and saw Leviticus’s comment, it looked familiar.
Now I am noticing the break in the video and wonder what I am not being told.
To be fair, I have always cautioned we don’t know what the grand jury was told that we weren’t. It’s just that, as time goes on, I am noticing and learning more of what that might have been.
And I frankly still don’t like what I see on the video. I’m not sure it’s criminal, but I don’t like it.
Patterico (227090) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:37 amWhen I worked at USC many years ago, there was some street person who wandered onto campus trying to harass the rich boys and girls. Campus security showed up in a hurry (those tuition dollars are important!).
Even though they had firearms, they didn’t draw them. Not even when the street person produced a butcher knife and started mock-slashing at people.
After many attempts to get the guy to settle down, the security dude produced his baton, and knocked the knife out of the guy’s hand. In doing so, he damaged the fellow’s wrist.
The next day, the Usual Social Justice Warriors were all up in arms about the police brutality.
They weren’t there, of course.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:39 amHow can you yell when you cannot breathe?
JD (86a5eb) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:41 amPatterico, I think we could all benefit from a re-showing of Rashomon.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:42 amI hope you’ll stick around on all the threads, DRJ. I don’t know how to put it, it’s kind of like my Arkansas stone that was all pretty and shiny from the diamond saw and smelling nice from the cedar, and it got better when it started to give that arm-hair shaving edge after I had run five or six blades across it and roughed up the surface and rounded off the corners a little and built a nice black slurry from the oil and the microscopic bits of steel and rock on it.
nk (dbc370) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:48 amI’m so very fond of DRJ. In particular, I appreciate her civility and kindness.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:55 amIn other words, ma’am: you class the joint up.
Simon Jester (5117bd) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:55 amkind of like how j.r. ewing’s mom did for the show
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:00 pmspeaking of fanning the flames you know what smells like christmas? burning q-tips! for reals you should try it all you need is two things a strike-anywhere match and a q-tip
strike the match (anywhere you like) and hold it under one end of the q-tip until the flame of the match has transferred itself to the q-tip and the q-tip is burning merrily
then blow out the q-tip
smells like christmas huh
there’s lots of other stuff you can burn this christmas but i recommend q-tips if you’re going for that authentic christmas smell
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:11 pm317. A version of the facts I find preposterous.
The ‘dialogue’ is arrested at an unbridgeable impasse.
DNF (02d195) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:12 pmoh. you can also blow out the match now
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:12 pmDammit! Too late. I burnt my fingers. You must be more careful wif the instructions, hf.
Gazzer (c44509) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:14 pmThe comment that drew labcatcher’s “grow up” was a direct quote of Patterico, for the record.
Leviticus (8818d2) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:00 am
NO it wasn’t, it was in response to your “he didn’t have a chance”.
labcatcher (61737c) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:15 pmJD (86a5eb) — 12/24/2014 @ 11:41 am
I seem to recall this is one of the things they drill into you when you’re taking CPR — if the subject can still cough or speak, then they aren’t actually choking.
PCachu (e072b7) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:27 pmelissa @ 335,
What you said, but also what’s frustrating is the reluctance to assign responsibility for the chances Garner had to prevent such a fateful moment from happening: immediate compliance. This does not excuse the rotten apples and they must be excised. However, in this case as in the Brown case, the suspects had every opportunity to comply with the order given. And they chose not to. Further, they had many opportunities way before it even culminated into the tragedies by choosing not to live outside of the law in the first place. Putting the blame on the police officers simultaneously removes the responsibility the individuals had for their choices made and their chances squandered.
Dana (8e74ce) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:29 pm315. “Persistent jumping off point”
A goodly number of those present have rejected your fallacious appeal to authority and yet you persist obstinately.
What does that say about you?
DNF (02d195) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:38 pmGarner barely, barely resisted. He didn’t have a chance.
Really?!
JD (3fc464) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:43 pm==…. I think it’s been a waste of time. It’s also stupid to waste time in a useless effort, so my New Year’s resolution is not to waste time like this again. DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/24/2014 @ 10:45 am=
What are we? Chopped liver? I’m afraid I don’t fully understand your comment in terms of the community aspects of this blog. Just because you didn’t make headway with Leviticus, (nobody did) do you genuinely feel the bulk of the conversation on this entire thread was a waste of your time? If so, that is really too bad. I read lots of interesting comments and forthright opinions and links posted here from thoughtful, smart, folks whom I respect a great deal. And that certainly includes your comments. I spent a lot of time on this thread and certainly do not view it as a waste of time at all. Maybe some are just allowing one person–Leviticus– way too much power or influence over the trajectory of the thread?
elissa (6762bc) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:51 pmGotta step away from the conversation for a bit. Family time. Merry Christmas, everybody.
Leviticus (8818d2) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:51 pmMerry Christmas, Leviticus.
nk (dbc370) — 12/24/2014 @ 12:56 pm“there’s lots of other stuff you can burn this christmas but i recommend q-tips if you’re going for that authentic christmas smell”
Mr. Feets – Putting foil wrapped colorful chockits in your microwave is a great Christmas tradition. Trust me on this.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:12 pmYes, some people have learned things, but nobody’s opinion has been changed, in fact after all is said and done we cannot agree on the facts of the case on which to base opinion.
We may not know exactly what happened before the start of the Garner video, but we know it was not walking up to a guy and taking him down, but happened to someone who was refusing to comply with police for a period of time, long enough for multiple teams to arrive, who physically resisted being handcuffed, and had a history of 30 prior arrests.
As I said before, do you want the police officer to tell the bad man that he better come along before the count of 3 or he’ll have to get mean? What are the odds that will help vs. tip the guy off when to resist with force? When that happens, then people are really going to get hurt (from the action itself, not preexisting medical conditions).
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:21 pmFor a fragrant xmas
mg (31009b) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:23 pmhttp://www.aloraambiance.com/
Maybe in the future some of us can sometimes make one post with a complete thought, and every time it seems a new comment is unaware of the previous thought, just refer back to it. It will save typing time,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 1:26 pmi’m all in on the pino that’s very pricy though but you can’t put a price on good pino
happyfeet (831175) — 12/24/2014 @ 2:08 pmLeviticus,
It doesn’t bother me that I disagree with both you and Patterico about this. It’s true I agree with Patterico 99% of the time, so this is that 1%. In addition, there’s hope he will change his mind since the person who filmed Garner’s arrest may have had a motive to edit out the initial part of the film and try to make the police look bad.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/24/2014 @ 2:47 pmelissa:
I’m glad you enjoyed yourself but it’s not my cup of tea.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/24/2014 @ 2:51 pmDRJ, I meant what I write about you, even (maybe especially) when I don’t agree.
In this case, I’m with you.
All of us need to be careful of falling prey to “narrativism,” where the take home lesson is larger or more important than context or facts. It’s a human thing.
Maybe we need “Fair Witnesses,” as R.A. Heinlein wrote of in “Stranger in a Strange Land”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fair%20Witness
Merry Christmas, ma’am.
Simon Jester (fe6d7b) — 12/24/2014 @ 3:17 pmyou can only have so much eggnog in your fridge before you’re like omg what am i gonna do with all this effing eggnog
happyfeet (831175) — 12/24/2014 @ 3:58 pmIt’s Chicago, feets, you can leave it on the stoop.
Gazzer (c44509) — 12/24/2014 @ 4:13 pmOK, I’ll shut up now. There is apparently an undercurrent of some kind going on here of which I am oblivious. Have a nice Christmas Eve and Merry Christmas everybody.
elissa (89285c) — 12/24/2014 @ 4:19 pmmerry christmas!
all is calm here and also all is bright but that’s cause of the turtles are basking
basking in heavenly peace
omg speaking of peace
this is the first christmas for the obama girls after their vicious savaging at the hands of rogue gop operative elizabeth lauten
i think a moment of silence and heartfelt wishes for christmas cheer and healing is in order
happyfeet (831175) — 12/24/2014 @ 4:55 pmok done
happyfeet (831175) — 12/24/2014 @ 4:56 pmDon’t forget the baby orphan kangaroos. They should enjoy a nice Christmas, too, before they’re turned into leather. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/orphan-kangaroos-spend-christmas-parentless-this-christmas-9944436.html Is there a Kanga Klaus? A Santa Roo?
nk (dbc370) — 12/24/2014 @ 5:29 pmoh you better believe there’s a santa roo
happyfeet (831175) — 12/24/2014 @ 5:42 pm369.you can only have so much eggnog in your fridge
Never had that problem, feets, I don’t understand the concept of “too much” eggnog.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/24/2014 @ 7:12 pmIt is true that Leviticus has been quoting my initial reaction to this. However, DRJ says:
The more I think about it, the more irritated I am with myself that I either missed or discounted the footage missing before they go to handcuff him. I think the shock of seeing him on the ground, hand up with fingers splayed, pathetically saying he can’t breathe, caused me to miss what should have been a blindingly obvious tell like that edit. It colors my view of how much of a chance he was given to comply, very much.
Patterico (227090) — 12/24/2014 @ 10:06 pmIt’s all about Teh Narrative, Patterico. The conspiracy theories are flying, and the “all cops are evil” meme is strong on social media. Again, it is so ironic: the same level of lumping together would not be permissible based on race. But some groupings are more equal than others.
Simon Jester (fe6d7b) — 12/24/2014 @ 10:14 pmThe two murdered policemen were both promoted to detectives (so that there would be a higher pension) as has happened with every policeman who died in the line of duty since 2001.
Officer Rafael Ramos, who had just passed the course to qualify him, was also made an honorary chaplain.
Some policemen turned their backs when de Blasio spoke.
On the Sunday shows, a black man who works for the Wall Street Journal made some very policticallt incorrect I wold say comments on Fox News Sunday (he repeatedly referred to the fact that the black crime rate was higher)
Former Mayor Rudolph Giiliani made some comments on Face the Nation that were pretty good, in reply to a claim by the washington Post that it had fact checked him. It could have been better if he had said it wasn’t what President Pbama said, it what he didn’t say.
He said associating with Al Sharpton said more than anything else.
Sammy Finkelman (1b38fa) — 12/28/2014 @ 12:31 pm