Patterico's Pontifications

11/10/2014

A Defense Of The Christian Business Owner: “No One Should Be Forced To Do Something They Don’t Believe In”

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:31 am

[guest post by Dana]

Back in 2012, Blaine Adamson, owner of the T-shirt company Hands-On Originals, was approached by the Gay and Lesbian Services Organization of Lexington to make shirts for an upcoming Lexington Pride Festival. Citing religious beliefs, Adamson declined:

I decided to pass on the opportunity because, as a Christian owner, I cannot in good conscience endorse groups or events that run counter to my convictions.

“Due to the promotional nature of our products, it is the prerogative of the company to refuse any order that would endorse positions that conflict with the convictions of the ownership.”

Upon having a human rights complaint filed against Hands-On Originals by the GLSO, Adamson clarified:

To be very clear, Hands On Originals does not and never has discriminated against any individuals or groups. As my earlier statement clarifies, we both employ and do business with people from all walks of life.

My decision not to print the shirts requested of us has nothing to do with who was ordering the shirts; it had only to do with the message of the shirts no matter who was ordering them.

In this situation, the message is in disagreement with my values. My faith calls me to love all people regardless of whether they share my values or not.

Fast forward to October of this year when the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission found that Anderson and Hands-On Originals discriminated against Gay and Lesbian Services Organization by refusing to print the group’s T-shirts:

“The evidence of record shows that the respondent discriminated against GLSO because of its members’ actual or imputed sexual orientation by refusing to print and sell to them the official shirts for the 2012 Lexington Pride Festival.”

Munson wrote that the application of the Fairness Ordinance did not violate the T-shirt vendor’s right to free speech and the free exercise of religion. The Human Rights Commission found in 2012 that Hands On Originals violated the city’s fairness ordinance, which prohibits businesses open to the public from discriminating against people based on sexual orientation. Nonetheless, the hearing process continued over two more years.

Glenn Beck had an interesting interview last week with two cool free-market supporters who are small-business owners and understand the need to respect others’ personal beliefs. They also happen to be lesbians. They both came to Anderson’s defense:

“As a business owner, it struck a chord with me when I read the story, because I know how hard it is to build a business, and it’s very personal, you know? You put your blood and your sweat and your tears into every bit of it. You know, when I put myself in his place, I immediately felt like if that were to happen to us, you know, I couldn’t, you know, create or print anti-gay T-shirts, you know, for a group. I couldn’t do it,” Kathy explained.

“So when I put myself in his shoes, you know, I could see it from his side, and you know, I really felt for him. He’s got a great business, you know, and there’s a lot of us out there. There’s a lot of gay businesses that would love to do business with everybody,” she continued.

Diane added, “We feel this really isn’t a gay or straight issue. This is a human issue. No one really should be forced to do something against what they believe in. It’s as simple as that, and we feel likewise. If we were approached by an organization such as the Westboro Baptist Church, I highly doubt we would be doing business with them.”

“Everybody votes with their dollars, you know?” Kathy said. “People shop where they want to shop because they, you know, they’re comfortable with that retailer. And why you would want to go with somebody who doesn’t agree with you, you know, and there’s others who do agree with you, that’s who I want to do business with. I mean, that’s why we create what we create for our community, you know? These are our people, and we understand them, and this is what we do.”

I don’t know where these women stand on matters of faith, but it’s certainly clear they have great respect for individual rights and personal beliefs. A sensibility and reasonableness that one wishes would become pervasive in all communities, especially in those that aggressively seek to punish and drive businesses into the ground because their beliefs are different.

–Dana

208 Responses to “A Defense Of The Christian Business Owner: “No One Should Be Forced To Do Something They Don’t Believe In””

  1. Hello.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  2. Good morning. No shirt. No shoes. No same-sex weddings. No service.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  3. I’m pretty sure Kathy and her partner will have their “privileges” revoked by the lbgtq-lmnop community.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  4. Having this matter heard and “adjudicated” by the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission reminds one of the story about the sheep and the wolves deciding on what to have for dinner. The t-shirt guy didn’t stand a chance, right from jump-street.

    I will await the two ladies’ take on the matter to appear on the CBS Evening News…

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  5. Don’t hold your breath,Gramps. It will happen on Fox, prolly, but that doesn’t count because fox is not a “real news” outlet – or so we are told by our betters.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  6. It doesn’t matter. You know? There’s always a voice or two of sanity amid the shouting chaos of bedlam, you know? At this point you’re probably saying, No, I don’t know. Weird verbal tics aside, the LBGTbbb (blah-blah-blah) crowd will continue to engage in lawfare against businesses that don’t toe their rainbow line. Forget freedom of religion. It doesn’t have to be about religion. There’s another constitutional amendment against slavery. It’s called the 13th Amendment.

    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Forcing someone to do something against their will is the definition of involuntary servitude. As this evil force continues to spread, expect the pace of injustice and enslavement to quicken. We’re sliding down the slippery slope at a fast clip these days and don’t expect any deviation from the route towards the bottom. (no pun intended)

    Jack (ff1ca8)

  7. I think this is a good case for thinking about the issue. Some have argued that baking a wedding cake, taking photographs, and even renting out a venue for a SS wedding are not really acts that endorse the ceremony or the concept and the business owners qualms are illogical.

    This seems to push-back on that argument. The purpose of the T-shirts was explicitly to endorse something that was counter to the business owners opinion. Will people who disagreed with the baker and others and who supported sanctions against them continue that argument and say printing the shirts was just a business deal and not an endorsement of what was on them, or will they admit that forced participation was indeed a violation of their right to free speech and practice of religion? I am not surprised by the ruling of the Commission (as Gramps the o. pointed out), and I will not be surprised when many people agree with the Commission and think the T-shirt maker should be punished for being a hater.

    I’m guessing felipe is right, that this pair of business owners that are lesbians supporting the right to turn down business will get unfriended by more than a few people on facebook, and even snubbed face to face.

    Which actually is helpful. How we respond to circumstances before us is a forced opportunity to think about priorities and values and to see the same revealed for others.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  8. Always thought that forcing a provider against their will might ultimately have negative results. Dang, apparently the memory card I used was faulty and none of the beautiful pictures I took were saved. So sorry, but we had the cake all decorated and were just going to deliver it, when it fell over and was smashed into a pile of crumbs and frosting. Of course we will refund your money.

    Loren (1e34f2)

  9. This isn’t even about religion, it’s about speech – the t-shirt company is saying, we will not take your money in exchange for producing written works that advocate a particular position with which we disagree. It’s no different from a gay tshirt company owner refusing to print tshirts that advocate lifetime jail sentences for consensual sodomy.

    I don’t think we have a generally accepted rule that someone printing tshirts will print tshirts with *any* text, and absent that, I don’t think the customers have a case here.

    aphrael (b8e786)

  10. This is just fear-mongering hyperbole. No one will be forced to act contrary to their belief.

    They will simply be finedtaxed for antisocial inactive existence.

    DNF (945395)

  11. Cat on lap.

    DNF (945395)

  12. And if I want t-shirts advertising the next Ku Klux Klan meeting, the Lexington-Fayette Urban-County Human Rights Commission is going to hold that I was discriminated against if a vendor won’t produce those shirts, right?

    The Dana who used to live in Lexington (f6a568)

  13. Another issue is whether one governs by principle or by preference, according to the law/laws or according to the will of the one in power. No doubt many would say “of course you shouldn’t print shirts for the KKK” and at the same time “of course you should support gay rights and SS marriage”.

    I must say, though, that I still have problems with allowing Nazi holocaust-deniers the same free speech rights as Global Warming doomsayers. Being openly supportive of those found guilty of crimes against humanity is something I’m not sure should be protected, but it is a matter of knowing when to say something is or isn’t disallowed speech.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  14. The disgusting circumstance we again find herein is you put anyone on a quasi-governing body and get a neo-Nazi.

    The disingenuous resort to anti discrimination legislation already on the books does nothing for our neo-Juden.

    DNF (945395)

  15. This isn’t even about religion, it’s about speech – the t-shirt company is saying, we will not take your money in exchange for producing written works that advocate a particular position with which we disagree. It’s no different from a gay tshirt company owner refusing to print tshirts that advocate lifetime jail sentences for consensual sodomy.

    But aphrael, does your argument assume that the defendants would have a legitimate case if they weren’t asking for a product that contains speech? So if GLSO Lexington had asked them for a T-shirt which featured a rainbow on the front but nothing else and made it clear that these T-shirts would be worn in the parade, would it be OK to compel the company to print them? What if they had no printed message at all, they were just regular T-shirts, but for some reason GLSO wanted to purchase them from this particular vendor expressly to be worn at the parade? Could the vendor ask them to buy at Target instead?

    JVW (60ca93)

  16. I must say, though, that I still have problems with allowing Nazi holocaust-deniers the same free speech rights as Global Warming doomsayers. Being openly supportive of those found guilty of crimes against humanity is something I’m not sure should be protected, but it is a matter of knowing when to say something is or isn’t disallowed speech.

    I like allowing Nazis to have their say in public, because then you get to see who exactly is a member of that stupid little cult. To me, that’s far better than forcing them to meet in secret and never really knowing for sure if that weird guy who lives on your street loves Hitler, or is just really in to collecting German WWII memorabilia.

    JVW (60ca93)

  17. Ah, there you are, aphrael. I was thinking about you. You had talked about being depressed; then you said you would be in Mexico during the election; and then I saw this: http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-spends-week-doing-coke-and-banging-hookers-decides-to-keep-living/

    Smile!

    nk (dbc370)

  18. Let us say that there is a Christian pharmacy that won’t sell contraceptives as a matter of belief.

    If this is OK, let us say that the sole distributor of a good part of their drug supply decides not to sell anything to pharmacies that won’t sell contraceptives, an act that will put them out of business.

    Is this also OK?

    Kevin M (d91a9f)

  19. I’ve long believed that businesses like the t-shirt company have been targeted by the LGBT community in an effort to force their beliefs on those they disagree with. I wonder how many t-shirt companies owned by homosexuals exist in Louisville? Why weren’t they approached?

    PeterK (3e1527)

  20. Interesting post until you got to the part about Glenn beck having done something interesting. That man is an ass clown.

    Gil (fbd9d0)

  21. I hate to think it, but it seems like the people who go to Christian bakeries or t-shirt places are doing this on purpose, to cause a row and to make them serve as “an example to others”?

    Patricia (5fc097)

  22. And if I want t-shirts advertising the next Ku Klux Klan meeting, the Lexington-Fayette Urban-County Human Rights Commission is going to hold that I was discriminated against if a vendor won’t produce those shirts, right?

    The Dana who used to live in Lexington (f6a568) — 11/10/2014 @ 7:53 am

    Only if you were gay, since this is a non discrimination issue and you can still discriminate against thought, just look at any Ivy League college campus.

    JVW (60ca93) — 11/10/2014 @ 8:26 am

    If burning a flag is considered free speech, I’m sure a rainbow could be considered free speach too.

    This should not be a discrimination issue, like race. This is a religious issue which unlike homosexuality, is actually protected by the constitution.

    And for Happyfeet, why are these gay people being so mean to Christians? Why are they forcing Christians to do things against their belief? That seems the same as if the government forced homosexuals to have sex with the opposite sex to propagate the human race. Seems like hate to me. Why are they being such icky haters?

    Tanny O'Haley (c674c7)

  23. The laws here were formulated to deal with Jim Crow, where many businesses had to choose whether to serve whites or blacks, as social pressure made it nearly impossible for whites to go to a business that served blacks, and triple that for the other direction.

    We don’t have the same sort of endemic discrimination that occurred with Jim Crow, so applying the same level of government force on individual proprietors doesn’t make a lot of sense. Not that making sense is a necessary government function.

    Kevin M (d91a9f)

  24. I hate to think it, but it seems like the people who go to Christian bakeries or t-shirt places are doing this on purpose, to cause a row and to make them serve as “an example to others”?

    Of course they are. One gay does in and is turned away and tells a friend. Soon the activists show up for their pound of flesh.

    Kevin M (d91a9f)

  25. As a retired minister, if I were forced against my will to perform a
    gay wedding, they would receive the most loving, emotional call to Christ
    that is was possible to put into a wedding sermon. However, I am afraid
    that in such a case, I would have no other option of resigning my pulpit
    and keeping my faith in my Savior intact. The ladies interviewed above
    mention that they would not want to print t-shirts with anti gay slogans
    on them. Right! Unfortunately, the destruction of the disapproving religious
    values of the Christian Community comes before most everything else
    in the plans of the alternate lifestyle groupthink. At least it seems
    to do so in my somewhat humble opinion. One question: Do the complainers
    get any of the money from the fines?

    TimothyJ (a33d78)

  26. There ought to be a difference between individuals and businesses. A hotel might be forced to take in the Klan Konvention, but the employees cannot be assigned on the basis of race.

    Kevin M (d91a9f)

  27. OT: Oh Lord, thank you for not making me a Bears fan.

    DNF (cac01a)

  28. Well up in rural New York state a Christian couple runs a farm. They open the farm for various events, including weddings and receptions.

    A 31 year old lesbian couple phoned and asked to schedule their wedding at the farm. The farm owner’s wife courteously declined saying that it would violate her family’s values to host such an event. The lesbian couple recorded the phone conversation. Sounds like a set up, entrapment and all that right? Yes indeedy.

    They complained; some “human rights commission” or other social justice Gestapo has now fined the farm owners $10,000 and ordered that the farm pay each member of the lesbian couple $1,500 for their hurt feelings or something like that. The farm owner’s reaction? No more weddings will be held on the farm once the previously scheduled deck has been run through. They may host wedding receptions in future–but no weddings.

    There was no suggestion that the lesbian couple should pay for the “hurt feelings” of folks who might be compelled to perform an act that they found personally distasteful. “Tolerance” runs only one way in our current society.

    Frankly looking at the photos of the two fat lesbian heifers would gag your average male goat–but I suppose there is someone for everyone in this world.

    Skeptical Voter (12e67d)

  29. @timothy 25
    You mention groupthink and seem to refer to it as a bad thing. Yet I can think of no more extreme of such an example of groupthink as an ideology that passes information about reality through rote learning and faith to children who accept these claims based on trust of their parents.

    Gil (fbd9d0)

  30. “Yet I can think of no more extreme of such an example of groupthink as an ideology that passes information about reality through rote learning and faith to children”

    Gil – I agree that the public education system which forces liberal ideas into the heads of children five days a week and fails to teach them critical thinking skills is a much greater danger to this country than any religion. Thanks for bringing it up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  31. Change the word parents to teachers and you have the public education system, Gil.

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_ed_school.html

    The Ed Schools’ Latest—and Worst—Humbug
    Teaching for “social justice” is a cruel hoax on disadvantaged kids.

    Steve57 (c1c90e)

  32. Interesting post until you got to the part about Glenn beck having done something interesting. That man is an ass clown.

    Gil (fbd9d0) — 11/10/2014 @ 8:45 am

    I believe that by what is quoted in the post, it’s obvious to most that “interesting” refers to what the lesbians have to say, not Beck. That is the focus of my post. However, your statement then begs the question, why haven’t we seen these women interviewed on network night news programs that might be more

    Dana (a259c1)

  33. Oops. …palatable to people like yourself?

    Dana (a259c1)

  34. They complained; some “human rights commission” or other social justice Gestapo has now fined the farm owners $10,000

    So appeal to a real court.

    Kevin M (d91a9f)

  35. One time I’m happy Gil showed up. In an hour, I’ll be in a dentist’s chair and if the pain gets too much I’ll just remind myself that I could be reading his comments instead.

    nk (dbc370)

  36. JVW (60ca93) — 11/10/2014 @ 8:29 am
    That’s a point, too.

    TimothyJ (a33d78) — 11/10/2014 @ 8:56 am
    Thanks for that contribution.
    Though I suppose they could try to put you in more of a bind by demanding they approve all of the comments you were going to make, and then that would be a further complication.

    Skeptical voter, you may have missed it, but we once had a long discussion about that.

    From what the fellow said, I don’t think he would have trouble selling them blank T-shirts or even T-shirts with some non-gay supporting message on them. The rainbow would be an interesting question of conscience. In itself the rainbow is a symbol of God’s promise to never destroy the world in a flood again, but it’s current use, especially in the parade, would be problematic.

    nk, I hope your sense of humor and aphrael’s sense of humor are adequately overlapping today…

    BTW, I guess I’m just a rebellious person, since I was not raised a Christian but decided to become one after being told why I shouldn’t be in my classes at that bastion of prudish behavior, UW-Madison.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  37. nk, or try thinking of listening to an extended monologue of my best “jokes”…

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  38. JVW, if the state has an anti-discrimination ordinance, then the supplier can’t refuse the custom of the customer based just on a characteristic listed in the ordinance. So there’s *some* line where “it’s ok to say no” is true on one side and not the other. I don’t know per se where the line is – but this case is clearly on the “it’s ok to say no” side of the line.

    aphrael (b8e786)

  39. nk – hahahahahahahahaha.

    it had never even occurred to me that anyone would link that story with me. :)

    aphrael (b8e786)

  40. Glad the Venn diagram of humor worked out.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  41. @steve 31
    Public school does not involve blind faith and astronomical claims that are meant to be believed on insufficient evidence.

    Gil (a4f54e)

  42. “This isn’t even about religion, it’s about speech – the t-shirt company is saying, we will not take your money in exchange for producing written works that advocate a particular position with which we disagree. It’s no different from a gay tshirt company owner refusing to print tshirts that advocate lifetime jail sentences for consensual sodomy.”

    Well, there’s your answer. Start suing Gay businesses because they refuse to do things which are against their beliefs. Turnabout is fair play. Demand that they make a cake for a Muslim celebration, that shows two gays being hung.

    Mike Giles (b8b724)

  43. “Public school does not involve blind faith and astronomical claims that are meant to be believed on insufficient evidence.”

    Gil – Why do public school teach students about global warming then? They forced two of my three kids to watch that farce “An Inconvenient Truth.” Grow up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  44. your civil rights don’t include owning a business that is a privilege not a right that is why they issue business licenses!

    civil wrongs (cba9ee)

  45. Public school does not involve blind faith and astronomical claims that are meant to be believed on insufficient evidence.
    Gil (a4f54e) — 11/10/2014 @ 11:04 a

    You are quite mistaken, dude. Public stools, er, schools do this all the time. Students are routinely promoted as an act of blind faith.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  46. Gil– here is but an an example of your upstanding public school teachers and the fine education they offer students.

    http://weaselzippers.us/205018-black-texas-teacher-who-tweeted-dumb-duck-ass-crackas-should-kill-yourselves-suspended-pending-dismissal/

    elissa (407d58)

  47. why are these gay people being so mean to Christians?

    Good question. How does this tactic, this legal bullying, do anything to bring reconciliation between gays and straights or to promote peaceful coexistence in a unified society? I assume that is the goal. Or is it to destroy traditional American life? Or simply to indulge one’s moral vanity.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  48. 44- Conflict there with the holdings of the DofI and that whole “Pursuit of Happiness” thing.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  49. Patricia, choices B and C, as you already knew.

    But to be fair, they don’t see it that way; they are just following the Alinsky spirit where it leads, and more literally than they realize.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  50. Civil wrongs,

    You need to read the Declaration of Independence. Our rights do not come from the government. The right to own a business is the “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” and “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” parts.

    Tanny O'Haley (c95d36)

  51. Quien sabe, aphrael? Que sera, sera, amigo. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  52. @dana
    I don’t know why the media doesn’t interview more free maket advocates. I actually agree. I’m a big fan of Milton Friedman for example.

    @elissa I never said there weren’t bad teachers. What’s your point that the school system reacted quickly and suspended that bad one?

    @tanny sorry but the Declaration of Independence does not our governing document. Further just because the people believed those truths to be self evident does not mean they were right.

    Gil (fbd9d0)

  53. @21 Patricia has a good point. If one is interested in moving their cause along I would expect them to support businesses that share that interest. They would be “voting with their wallets” by taking their business to an LGBT t-shirt printer and thus give them some business (and money) to keep that business successful and at the same time deny dollars to the “hater” business, which some would call a win-win.

    I would not be surprised to find that a fair amount of research was done to find a t-shirt printer with a personal position, in this case religion, so that they could make a thing out of this…

    Gramps, the original (9e1415)

  54. You’re right Gil, the Declaration of Independence is not our governing document. It’s our founding document which sets forward the Ideals the Founders based the Constitution on.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  55. Gil–of course it’s good that the school system acted fast when this horrible teacher publicly outed herself on twitter. But I hope you’re not trying to insinuate that her anger and racsim has not come trough plenty of other times both in the classroom and in the faculty lounge. That was my point. We’ve been having a fairly active discussion on the public school system on another thread as well.

    elissa (d9a964)

  56. When this issue comes up, quote the professional victems a price they would never accept, like $1,000 per shirt or $10,000 per cake. End of problem.

    PerfectSense (18605b)

  57. BTW that interview with Glenn Beck and the lesbians (sounds like a weird band) is just wonderful. I love those women! People like them will lead the way out of this darkness.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  58. When I see something like this, I find myself tending towards the philosophy of “Give the person what they ask for … literally … rather than what they want …” … there is a reason why so many cultures on this planet have some equivalent of the saying “Be careful what you ask for …” …

    For a wedding cake, perhaps (with permission of the local priest/minister) have the water in it be Holy Water … perhaps have the decoration be Christian Crosses or Mogen Davids or the Om symbol or the Islamic equivalent – or all of them … perhaps have no salt and/or no sugar in it … just be sure to fulfil the letter of the contract …

    For a t-shirt, if they don’t specify the font, there are all sorts of creativity available … if they don’t specify the colour for the lettering, and even if they do specify red lettering, it is amazing how many different shades of red there can be – and all on the same shirt … again, fulfil the letter of the contract …

    Alastor (e7cb73)

  59. I hate to think it, but it seems like the people who go to Christian bakeries or t-shirt places are doing this on purpose, to cause a row and to make them serve as “an example to others”?

    Patricia (5fc097) — 11/10/2014 @ 8:45 am

    It isn’t a matter of seems, Patricia. The gays are choosing specific businesses in order to howl about just how “hateful, misogynist and discriminatory” straights are. Doesn’t matter that there are several other businesses who would accept the custom from the LBGQ community. Those with strong Christian faith are the target.

    As far as I care, until gays begin targeting Muslims for equal harassment, I see them as nothing more than unequal opportunity moral cowards.

    Bill H (f9e4cd)

  60. @elissa
    I think we are more in agreement than anything else. Yes the public school system needs improvement. I dont think it is fair though to take one example and insinuate that its all bad. My kids are in public school and we have had nothing but good teachers to this point. I didnt even mean to bring this up. But Steve tried to point out that teachers in public school are the same as parents teaching their kids to believe in their religion.

    @Hoagie
    Thats great. When I used to take math tests in school, if I made a mistake in my first few equations but came up with the right answer anyway, I still only got partial credit.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  61. Gil,

    “Interesting post until you got to the part about Glenn beck having done something interesting. That man is an ass clown.”

    And what, pray tell, is wrong with a Conservative/Right assclown? Why should we be limited to Liberal/Left assclowns like Dan “I got hoaxed, but it’s still true” Rather?

    C. S. P. Schofield (848299)

  62. Yes, but SCOTUS allegedly removed religion from the classroom back in the 60’s….they just forgot to specify that they were removing ALL religion, both mono & multi theist and the Paganism of Gaia, from that classroom.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  63. @daley #30
    Sure there is bias in schools. Are you serious though? Do you honestly think that public schools are on the same level of indoctrination as for example Joel Oesteen’s church? Have you seen the masses following him? Doesnt it make you a little sad inside? Think of the kids being zombified in there.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  64. “Are you serious though?”

    Gil – Absolutely. Do you ever consider how much time kids spend per week in the indoctrination factories of public schools versus what they may spend in church or in church related activities before spewing your anti-religious bigotry? Clearly this is a subject with which you have no familiarity.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  65. Gil’s bigotry and hatred and asshattery is so very unpleasant.

    JD (fa5d16)

  66. JD – I thought Gil claimed he was a live and let live type of atheist or agnostic or whatever he prefers to call himself today, yet whenever he stops by it seems his sole purpose is to heap scorn on Christianity. He has no interest in people peacefully enjoying their beliefs. Liar is what would call Gil.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  67. A question: I feel for all the people compelled to do things they oppose based on religious beliefs. But how far does this go in a business context? Do Muslim taxi drivers have to pick up people with dogs, or alcohol? This was an issue in Minnesota a few years back. Do we want a country where people in a business can decide who they wait on for religious reasons?

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (5e0a82)

  68. this idea that christianity is somehow inherently at odds with homosexuality is sheer bigotry and it’s the epitome of the most crude form of trailer park religion you ever gonna find you whole life unless you count those westboro people

    and the pope knows it

    happyfeet (831175)

  69. the arrogance alone of these t-shirt bigots is mind-bogglingly un-American

    that’s just not the way good people behave

    happyfeet (831175)

  70. this idea that christianity is somehow inherently at odds with homosexuality is sheer bigotry and it’s the epitome of the most crude form of trailer park religion you ever gonna find you whole life unless you count those westboro people

    happyfeet (831175) — 11/10/2014 @ 5:12 pm

    Based on this extremely consistent fact-free – it’s true cause I say so – theme of yours, you must think the Bible was written in a trailer park.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  71. Do we want a country where people in a business can decide who they wait on for religious reasons?

    Why yes, Harcourt, we do. That’s called Freedom. Like the song “Sometimes love don’t feel like it should…It hurts so good”. Sometimes one will take issue with another’s exercise of their Liberty. Well, too bad. But to force someone to do business with another is simply legalized slavery. No one can be forced into labor except for a crime. At least before PC came into being.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  72. happyfeet,

    Do you see any truth in what the women in the interview had to say?

    Dana (8e74ce)

  73. the arrogance alone of these t-shirt bigots is mind-bogglingly un-American

    that’s just not the way good people behave

    happyfeet (831175) — 11/10/2014 @ 5:15 pm

    Arrogant! There’s something extremely arrogant about constantly labeling everyone who disagrees with you as evil while also implying that Christians are just using the Bible as an excuse to justify their evilness. And just repeating it over and over and over. Or maybe psychotic.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  74. Dana I’ve never been on the team what says we should force people to do stuff (or fine them for not doping stuff)

    I just think these people are tacky and hateful and not very nice and that also they have a very very messed up idea of Christianity and also I think they are very very very arrogant

    happyfeet (831175)

  75. not *doing* stuff i mean

    happyfeet (831175)

  76. happyfeet,
    Do you see any truth in what the women in the interview had to say?

    Dana (8e74ce) — 11/10/2014 @ 5:20 pm

    I can answer for happyfeet:

    “This is about the truth of being nice to people and not being an ignorant not nice bigot what pretends to be a christian to justify their ignorant not nice bigotry”.

    We don’t need happyfeet on these threads. I can supply all his deep penetrating analysis.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  77. I was composing #76 while #74 was posted. I didn’t see it first. Compare the two.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  78. HF

    Go and find peace

    EPWJ (598909)

  79. hi welcome to t-shirt heaven I’m your t-shirt consultant happyfeet what can I do you for?

    oh ok so you want the shirt to say Lexington Pride Festival 2012 and have like a picture of two guys holding hands

    okeydoke if you already have the graphics we can turn this around in no time how many shirts did you want? There’s a break in the unit cost by the way for orders of over 100, 300, and 500…

    oh also by the way I love Jesus a lot ok so how many shirts would you guys like?

    ok so we’ll have 200 shirts for you on Friday we’re not open on Sunday cause of that’s the day of rest and plus we all go to church that day so there’s nobody here cause of we are all Christians oh hey I need you to pay in advance though cause of the custom work will mean if you don’t come get it we’d be stuck with the shirts so I can take all major credit cards but no checks cause of we had a bad experience with checks so we’re not taking checks anymore just cash and like I said all major credit cards

    okey doke let me run your amex and then I’ll just need a signature

    ok bye you guys have a great day we appreciate your business so much – see you Friday!

    happyfeet (831175)

  80. So according to you Gil Joel Osteen teaching kids about following a moral code is “zombified”? I don’t know where this fear of teaching good morals comes from. So it’s perfectly okay to teach about homosexuality, abortion, birth control and a hundred other morally and ethically questionable activities but trying to show children why “it’s better to give that to receive” or to “love thy neighbor” suddenly causes you the vapors. To me that indicates a questionable character.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  81. “you must think the Bible was written in a trailer park.”

    Gerald A – I think you can find the part about the homos in the gospel of Airstream. :)

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. daleyrocks you’ll find some mention of cheap bourbon and deep fired snickers in that gospel too.

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  83. Well Said, daley.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  84. deep *fried* snickers

    Gerald A (d65c67)

  85. It would be interesting to see what will happen if someone went to a business owned by a homosexual and wanted a message of “Why is homosexual behavior okay but incest not?” produced.

    seeRpea (d2c6e3)

  86. that would not be interesting

    happyfeet (831175)

  87. Why not?

    JD (285732)

  88. Tolerance is a one-way street

    JD (285732)

  89. it’s almost the holidays already

    it’s the most wonderful time of the year

    happyfeet (831175)

  90. Gerald A-
    I’m not sure it’s a good thing to be able to channel feets so well, take care with that, I’d suggest no more than once a week.

    If the same Jesus that was in the Bible who told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more ran a T-shirt shop and someone came in asking for shirts that promoted homosexual behavior
    if the past is a good predictor of the future
    Jesus would say, hey, I love you, but go and sin no more, and if I printed these shirts for you I would be tempting you to sin, and I already taught you to pray that I wouldn’t do that
    and I was there when the Bible was written and I know what it meant, whether you are a textualist or original intent person,
    and happyfeet wasn’t.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  91. 68. Maybe you shouldn’t push the idea then? Perhaps even grow beyond a Sunday School understanding of the subject?

    DNF (4c9418)

  92. i gotta sing my truth

    happyfeet (831175)

  93. “What is truth?”
    – P. Pilate

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  94. aphrael nailed. It’s First Amendment but the religious motive is irrelevant. The store owner could have refused to print “Eat A Healthy Diet And Get Plenty of Rest Combined With Moderate Exercise”.

    nk (dbc370)

  95. aphrael nailed *it*

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Is it Ok to exclude SSM partners from teaching in one’s community elementary schools?

    There is no compromise available.

    DNF (4c9418)

  97. Mr. Feets – You got turkey day plans?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  98. hi it looks like I’m a go see my brother in minnesota

    I haven’t seen their new house yet

    happyfeet (831175)

  99. Have fun. Dress warm. Just asking in case you needed a place to land.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. Gil’s bigotry and hatred and asshattery is so very unpleasant.

    JD (fa5d16) — 11/10/2014 @ 4:51 pm

    Wait a second just because I disagree you label me hate filled and a bigot? Isn’t this exactly what you complain Muslims do?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  101. Based on this extremely consistent fact-free – it’s true cause I say so – theme of yours, you must think the Bible was written in a trailer park.

    No it’s much worse. They had no idea about trailer parks back then. It was written by iron aged peasants who lived on dirt floors in their homes.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  102. Just seems like if the owners of Hands-on Originals can refuse to print a bunch of pro-abortion T-shirts without running afoul of some anti-discrimination ordinance the same reasoning should apply to his reasoning for refusing to print T-shirts supporting some pro-gay cause. He’s rejecting the message, not discriminating against the person ordering them.

    I’ve known T-shirt shops who have refused to print shirts if I’ve made a message too edgy (obscene). Can I sue them? Are they discriminating against me?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  103. Bless your heart, Gil.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  104. thanks so much

    i’m really loving it here so far btw

    just really nice people and such a great place

    happyfeet (831175)

  105. Muslims wipe with the left hand.

    DNF (4c9418)

  106. I don’t recall saying that. You wouldn’t be making things up, would you? My noting you are full of hate and a bigot is based on my observations of your obsessive compulsion to show your arse on these topics EVERY time they come up! and even when they don’t come up. It is data driven.

    JD (285732)

  107. @93 MD
    Truth is what comports to reality.
    What is faith?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  108. Then you are the anti-twoof, Gil

    JD (285732)

  109. happyfeet, if you can be bothered to drive to the Manee Thai Pan Asian Restaurant And Sushi on Addison and Pulaski, whenever you don’t feel like cooking dinner, I’m buying. You said maybe this Wednesday the last time I asked? Just so you know, I’m having a tooth extracted on Thursday so my schedule after that will be iffy for a few days. If you’d like to join us, daleyrocks, won’t you please be my guest too? We can do the big together whenever.

    nk (dbc370)

  110. @106

    Not in this thread. But a few weeks ago when Ben afflict claimed Sam harris and bill Mahr were islamphobes what was your opinion? We’re they bigots for claiming that Islam was “the mother load of bad ideas”?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  111. Lode, Load.

    DNF (4c9418)

  112. Gil, do you realize that was a reference to something?

    Faith is a belief based on evidence which involves both the cognition and the will. Like the belief that the material universe is all there is.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  113. So it’s perfectly okay to teach about homosexuality, abortion, birth control and a hundred other morally and ethically questionable activities

    Please clarify. Homosexuality as in 2 people consensually doing what they want is unethical because why? It’s immoral because why? Because a god who commands the slaughter of babies says so? Repeat that same question about birth control. And since when is teaching about something wrong?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  114. @md and what evidence do you base your faith on?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  115. Gil – it would be easier for you to admit you made that up, and then tried to attribute it to me.

    JD (285732)

  116. I have never in my life seen a live and let live agnostic so deeply and passionately invested in mocking and hating Christianity, and those that practice it.

    JD (285732)

  117. @JD 116

    So go ahead for the record lay it out. What did you think of Ben Affleck defending muslims to Sam Harris and Bill Maher by calling them out as bigotted islamaphobes? Was it reasonable to call them bigots because they disagreed with the ideology?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  118. Who said i was a live and let live agnostic?
    I am an atheist. I do not accept your claim that a god exists. Yes I ridicule your beliefs which are based on insufficient evidence. But I do not hate you. You are a human being and deserve everything that other human beings deserve. One thing that other human beings do not deserve is to have their false beliefs respected. Just like you dont respect anyone’s belief (for example) that global warming is a serious crisis. Does that mean you are biggotted against global warming believers? No it does not.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  119. Flying flaming squirrels of death!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  120. nk – Thank you for the invite. I have adult education scheduled Weds. and Thurs. evenings which I do not want to skip with the holidays at our throats.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  121. Gil, you have claimed to be various things at various times.
    As I said, belief has both cognitive and volitional aspects, your volitional choices have closed you mind to honest cognitive consideration of matters of evidence, which you have been dismissive of previously.
    If anyone else wishes to ask a question, I will check in the morning.
    Good night.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  122. What a ridiculous little twerp!

    nk (dbc370)

  123. @122

    How sad for you MD.
    Matters of evidence are clearly demonstrable and testable. Go ahead and run away. Im not the one avoiding questions. You are. You said faith was based on evidence – now you refuse to say what evidence that you base your faith on. Not only is that cowardly, its unchristian. You should be ready to defend your faith. Its in scripture.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  124. Go sniff a fire hydrant, Gil.

    nk (dbc370)

  125. Gil- Seriously, I don’t think anybody here gives a rat’s ass cares what you believe, or don’t believe or that they want to convert you to anything. But many of us are fascinated that you so frequently pop in here apparently just so you can tell people there’s no God and to argue. What’s that about? Why is it important to you if other people believe in a higher power? You’re an atheist. Fine. So what? There’s at least one other atheist who comments here. But it’s not his defining persona on every single topic and there’s mutual respect.

    elissa (3b4cf5)

  126. wednesday is perfect i should be home by 7 and can head out shortly after if that works

    happyfeet (831175)

  127. @elissa
    I care about whats True. So many people here base their opinions on things that they have no good reason to believe is true. For example railing against SSM based on their faith. When public policy is affected because of religion it is valid to get to the root of the problem.

    As for respect. I respect you. But I dont respect your beliefs. Or perhaps it is best to say – I respect you too much to think that you actually believe that a person lived inside a fish for 3 days.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  128. Go sniff a fire hydrant, Gil.

    Thanks for your valuable and thoughtful contribution nk.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  129. Yes. Great.

    nk (dbc370)

  130. Sweets to the sweet, Gil. Go wallow in your mud and leave us alone.

    nk (dbc370)

  131. I am bigoted against global warming alarmists. I am bigoted against people that lie so easily, and bastardize “science” for political ends.

    JD (285732)

  132. Gil’s religion is attacking other people’s religion.

    JD (285732)

  133. If there’s ever a future battle between the Sharia-Law Brigade and the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission (btw, where the hell are these banana-republic, tin-horn entities coming from?!), I’m going to root for both sides pulverizing one another. Actually, since the “Human Rights Commission” undoubtedly lives under the ridiculous delusion it’s a kind-hearted, sophisticated watchdog, I fear it more than I fear the kooks and crazies originating thousands of miles away in Islamo-land. So, okay, I’ll momentarily root for the Sharia-Law Wackos.

    Mark (c160ec)

  134. Gil’s religion tells him what other people have no good reason to believe and he is happy to share the good news of his religion with others because he is so tolerant of the beliefs of others.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  135. Gil said this:

    Sure there is bias in schools. Are you serious though? Do you honestly think that public schools are on the same level of indoctrination as for example Joel Oesteen’s church? Have you seen the masses following him? Doesnt it make you a little sad inside? Think of the kids being zombified in there.

    I don’t know much about Joel Oesteen’s church or his beliefs, although I do know who he is. Regardless, I do know that people who attend his church do it on their own free will. How those parents “indoctrinate” their children is their business. There are plenty examples of children who rebel against what they are taught.

    I also believe in public education because children should be educated. How the children are educated is indeed my business because I help pay for said education.

    One of these things is not like the other.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  136. For example railing against SSM based on their faith.

    Yea, I personally rail against SSM for the same reason that apparently is at the core of what triggered the attitudes of the famous ancient Greek philosopher Plato. After originally expressing a viewpoint that sounded oddly like that of a modern-day liberal about “GLBT” (or an ancient variation of such an acronym), he ended up strongly repudiating homosexuality, in truly harsh or mean terms.

    BTW, Plato predates Christianity.

    Mark (c160ec)

  137. There is one True God and his name is Gil.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. I don’t know who raised Gil, but they sure messed up his melon. His idea of respect seems a tad off. I’ll take the over on ten years of psych therapy. Gil doesn’t need god, he has a mirror

    hadoop (657247)

  139. It just wants attention. Mommy did not give it enough hugs when it came into the kitchen waving the warm, brown thing it had just made in its pull-up.

    nk (dbc370)

  140. Apparently Gil absolutely believes God does not exist. I absolutely believe God does exist. I see no way either of us could offer enough evidence to convince the other he is incorrect. So the main difference is that if I’m wrong there’s no problem. If Gil’s wrong he’s screwed for eternity. So basically, I win either way.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  141. Hoagie what if your wrong and a different religion is right?
    Pascal’s wager gets you nowhere.

    To clarify: I do not claim there is no god. I just do not accept your claim that there is one. These are 2 different things. For example if I flip a coin and hide it and ask you if you believe it is tails, then you say no, then it does not follow that you believe it is heads. In this example you do not have to provide evidence that it is not heads or tails. You are just withholding belief. This is the same for me. I make no claim. It is you who are claiming something so the burden of proof is on you.

    Gil (a4f54e)

  142. Nobody gives a s*** what you don’t believe, pigboy. Nobody is interested in proving anything to you. Nobody is interested in you. You are a nuisance. Can you believe that?

    nk (dbc370)

  143. Hi nk.
    As usually thanks for your reasoned analysis and calm polite discourse. Hoagie is discussing what I believe. So I think you will need to clarify what you mean by “no one”

    Gil (a4f54e)

  144. Faith in God and in the Son, that He paid my penalty and restored me to His house is something a self-cognizant person can appreciate and affirm down to an IQ of maybe 40?

    Pretty amazing when you think about what IQ minimum and maximum enables obsession with atheism.

    DNF (4c9418)

  145. The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t bother me. The Hare Krishnas don’t bother me. Even the tiny Falun Gong girl who stops by once in a while and passes out leaflets does not bother me. They’re all proselytizing to something. What kind of sick insect proselytizes to nothing?

    nk (dbc370)

  146. “What kind of sick insect proselytizes to nothing?”

    See Gahan Wilson cartoon “Is nothing sacred?”

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  147. “The Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t bother me….”

    In my experience the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unfailingly civil, gentle souls who simply want to bring me the Good News in the hope that I will see the truth to my great benefit. They don’t want to use violence to shut me up or force me to do or say anything.

    In contrast, many of the atheists I know–who are, by an inexplicable (wink) coincidence, leftists–very much want to force me to do, say, and think only what they approve of.

    Jesus told his followers “Go forth and preach the Good News to the entire world.”

    Karl Marx told his confreres “Kill all the class enemies.”

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  148. Gil: Speaking of reasoned analysis and calm polite discourse, what’s with the gratuitous bashing of Glenn Beck when the author of this post linked to an interview he did with two lesbians? You remind me of the eccentric woman who, whenever author A is quoted on a field in which he has expertise, tries to invalidate the argument by claiming that A was mean to her.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  149. It’s simply not good enough to allow their behavior. We all have to applaud and celebrate it as they march through our communities and seek out any who disagree for persecution.

    It must take tremendous energy for them to maintain their gender-denying fantasy as reality.

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  150. Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 11/10/2014 @ 9:29 pm

    Well said,sir.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  151. I make no claim. It is you who are claiming something so the burden of proof is on you.

    Come on Gil, don’t start that nonsense with me. I’ve seen several posts where you stated to not believe in God. Therefore, you did make a claim. The only thing I’m claiming is from what you’ve written you don’t believe in God and from what I’ve written I do. There’s no burden of proof, it’s just an observation. I need prove nothing to you. And I wouldn’t waste my time trying. I’ve been down that road before with atheists and it’s a fool’s errand. It’s like they say: for those who believe no proof is needed and for those who don’t no proof is enough.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  152. Love is a living contradiction of everything they preach and stand for, so it’s little wonder the Left must attack her, as well as her politics.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  153. “I am an atheist arsehole.”
    – Gil

    FIFYNS

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  154. i think if you’ve got your graphics ready it’s probably cheaper to get your t-shirts made online

    that’s what I would do cause of that’s just my general approach to the procurement of promotional items

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  155. nk, a troll is a troll is a troll.

    But I will say this (and I mean utterly no disrespect to the people of faith who post here)… I generally find that “aggressive atheists” (as opposed to agnostics) and “superfundamentalists” (as opposed to people of faith) have an ironic commonality:

    Neither can conceive of a Creator greater than they are.

    Deeply religious people I know are humble. So are many atheists I know.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  156. The continued, inexorable balkanization of our nation has only one outcome.

    The downstate Nazis threaten life and liberty in the livable regions of NY.

    At bottom these supremacists hate life beginning with their own.

    No equilibrium is possible, no live and let live benign neglect stasis.

    DNF (4c9418)

  157. Yeah. Protagoras, the “Man is the measure of all things” guy, explained elsewhere that the subject (the gods) is too complex and human life too short for understanding.

    nk (dbc370)

  158. Hoagie:
    I do not believe in god
    That is different from the unsupportable position “I believe there is no god”

    Go back to the flipped coin example. Just because I don’t believe it is tails does not mean I do believe it is heads. It is possible to withhold belief for both propositions.

    I believe things that I have good reason to believe. What is your reason to believ in god? What if I’m wrong is not a goods reason because it can be used for all faiths. For example what if you are wrong about Islam?

    Gil (c7c411)

  159. @psr

    I onced asked a Jehovah’s Witness the fate of Hindus that never heard “the good news” and he told me they are doomed to hell. I do admit though they were quite civil about it

    Gil (c7c411)

  160. Gil has successfully hijacked this thread from the original topic (fascists forcing people to do things that conflict with their faith) to whether or not there is a God.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  161. Weird verbal tics aside, the LBGTbbb (blah-blah-blah) crowd will continue to engage in lawfare against businesses that don’t toe their rainbow line.

    Well, they will keep going after CHRISTIAN businesses that don’t toe the line. Ever hear of anyone calling a kosher glatt bakery and asking them to make a gay wedding cake? They wouldn’t have the balls, and anyway, other religions are allowed to discriminate. Only Christians are not. No way would a kosher glatt bakery EVER bake a gay cake.

    Brian Geary (6af3a8)

  162. A busy morning, first chance to look:

    How sad for you MD.
    Matters of evidence are clearly demonstrable and testable. Go ahead and run away. Im not the one avoiding questions. You are. You said faith was based on evidence – now you refuse to say what evidence that you base your faith on. Not only is that cowardly, its unchristian. You should be ready to defend your faith. Its in scripture.

    Gil (ca1c4f) — 11/10/2014 @ 8:42 pm

    Gil, the Devil knows the Bible better than you and is disappointed by your lack of skills, maybe you should read it again to see what is in it and what isn’t, and take better notes on how to challenge and tempt people.

    It is also written to not throw pearls before swine, as has been pointed out before by another.

    Prove to me that you exist, or any individual person for that matter.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  163. 164. ” pearls before swine ”

    Indeed, the class of swine around here is deplorable.

    DNF (546553)

  164. The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters

    DNF (546553)

  165. some people are worthy of considering, and some are not:

    http://weaselzippers.us/205042-obama-passes-when-asked-if-he-supports-pro-demoracy-protesters-in-hong-kong-its-complicated/

    there’s a certain arrogance in the certainty that god doesn’t exist, the instinct to make us the determinant of all their is,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  166. At first I thought how cool. They have the right idea. But then I thought deeper. What if atheists refused to serve Christians or Jews? Or Jews refused to serve Christians? Or Christians to serve Jews? I’m kind of torn.

    Should we have a right to deny serving people who don’t accept Christ – or who do, for example? Any thoughts?

    Brian Geary (6af3a8)

  167. “At first I thought how cool. They have the right idea. But then I thought deeper.”

    Brian – According to the business owner what he objected to was the proposed message on the T-shirts, not the identity of people ordering the shirts. Click on the first link if you have not already. Newspapers reject advertisements all the time. Do they get sued for discrimination for it?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  168. Leftists love to use “disparate impact” as a rule to claim discrimination and rule laws unconstitutional. How about we hold them to their own rules and use the same claim since these acts only ever target Christians practicing their faith.

    njrob (756528)

  169. Go back to the flipped coin example. Just because I don’t believe it is tails does not mean I do believe it is heads. It is possible to withhold belief for both propositions.

    If it’s a real coin Gil, it has to be one or the other. Therefore, it’s just as logical to believe it is both heads and tails at the same time. But as I said, arguing the point with an atheist is a fools errand. How about we just drop it? To beleaguer this is ridiculous. Most of us believe in God and you don’t. Fine.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  170. Hoagie we are very close. It is not that I believe it is neither tails or heads. There is no evidence to believe that it is either tails or heads. Therefore I simply don’t believe either while I do know it must be one of the two. If a 3rd person walked up claiming that he knew it was heads the burden of proof would be on him to demonstrate that. We can drop it if you like. But let’s go back to your what if I’m wrong argument. Wwhat if your wrong and Islam is the true faith?

    Gil (c7c411)

  171. Are you muddy enough yet, Hoagie? I’ve got a nice clean towel ready for you, for when you are done pig-wrestling.

    felipe (40f0f0)

  172. S Q U I R R E L !!!!!!!!!

    JD (285732)

  173. “If a 3rd person walked up claiming that he knew it was heads the burden of proof would be on him to demonstrate that.”

    Gil – Guess what, you are that third person on this blog, you just refuse to see it. People here are happy to let you believe whatever you want. You refuse to let others peacefully enjoy their beliefs. It is an old, tired act and you are not the first hack to spin it here.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  174. Prove to me that you exist, or any individual person for that matter.

    That is quite simple. I interact with reality. My actions can be measured and tested. There are birth records and tax returns that can be used as supporting evidence. There are government ids. Regardless my existence has no bearing (I should hope) on why you accept outrageous claims on faith.
    Claiming that I am not worthy to hear what evidence you base your faith on is a cop out. What’s your best reason? Let’s see how good it is.

    Gil (c7c411)

  175. Sayeth Gil, the bigot “I interact with reality.” If there was ever an assertion without evidence ….

    JD (285732)

  176. Daley
    There is nothing wrong with challenging someone’s beliefs. It is a sad commentary on this blog when you say things like that. I’m the 3rd person because I disagree with you and point out what I think are mistakes on others’ behalf? You’d rather just talk amongst yourselves secure in your like minded groupthink. It is a pity.

    Gil (c7c411)

  177. Jd welcome back. Are you going to answer about whether Ben affleck was justified in implying bill maher and Sam harris were islamphobes because of their opinions on Islam yet? Or will you continue to dodge and hide your intellectual dishonesty and continue to call me bigot against Christians?

    Gil (c7c411)

  178. “There is nothing wrong with challenging someone’s beliefs.”

    Gil – There is when your questions have been answered in prior conversations and you just dishonestly seek to go down the same road all over again. Seriously, get a new game, you are boring.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  179. JD – Lather, rinse, repeat. Gil believes in the Truth (capital “T”). What you believe in is unreasonable. End of story.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  180. “It is a sad commentary on this blog when you say things like that. I’m the 3rd person because I disagree with you and point out what I think are mistakes on others’ behalf?”

    Gil – Actually your behavior is more a reflection on your insecurity and lack of conviction in your beliefs than any commentary on this blog. You have not pointed out any specific disagreements with folks here, only that you don’t believe in God. Big deal. You’ve said that in repeated trips here in the past without explaining why. That does not take any courage or evidence on your part. You have been repeatedly informed this is not a religion blog and that there are more appropriate forums if you want to discuss matters of faith yet you keep returning. You do not discuss matters in good faith, which you would dispute, but other commenters here would agree about since your SOP is to summarily dismiss arguments or evidence you do not like or deem “unreasonable.” Somebody who possessed the courage of their convictions would not return time after time seeking to validate those convictions in a place they have been told people are not interested in discussing it with them. That’s a sign of immaturity and insecurity.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  181. Daley – this is the person that once told us that he know better what we think than we do.

    JD (285732)

  182. JD – I remember very well. He believes he has skilz!

    DON’T U NO WHO GIL THINKS HE IZ?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  183. I reject your faulty premises and flawed analogy, Gil. I state you are a bigot against Christians based on your actions here. It is almost beyond dispute. Aflleck’s “analysis” was as deep as a thimble, and as insightful as the drivel you vomit out every time you come by.

    JD (285732)

  184. So Gil meets Descartes … and Gil disappears.

    nk (dbc370)

  185. Does “Gil” have any other monikers that I would recognize from years back, or is this a new one?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  186. All ur ghey animals are belong to Gil!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  187. 71 and 168: this is an issue that’s being side-stepped: to use one example: Can muslim cabdrivers refuse to pick up women with short skirts, unescorted women, people with alcohol and people with dogs? f so, where does this stop? Do catholic cab drivers get to refuse to pick up doctors at abortion clinics or refuse to rent to men and women who live together but aren’t married? Does a religious firefighter get to refuse to assist in dousing a fire at the House of seduction? How many businesses can “refuse” to do business with or assist someone for a religious reason? No. 71 says we have “freedom” here, but while we guarantee freedom of religion, we don’t normally allow religious practices to enter commerce as a basis to blacklist a customer.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (5e0a82)

  188. This is not freedom of religion, it’s freedom of speech. Westboro Baptist goes into a gay-owned print shop and wants 10,000 leaflets that say “God hates homosexuals”. The print shop has to print it, or it’s religious discrimination? How about a Jewish-owned print shop asked to print “Jews crucified Christ”?

    nk (dbc370)

  189. Harcourt, cab drivers refuse to pick up people all the time for all kinds of reasons. It’s their right. Firefighters, like police or even doctors take an oath to help people and are expected to keep that oath. That’s why a corrupt cop or arsonist fire fighter or abortion doctor are considered by most moral people as total pigs. Nobody dies Harcourt, if a cab driver opts for a different fare, or a baker chooses not to bake a cake or a photographer won’t take a gays damn picture.

    Just so you know, “businesses” don’t refuse to do business or assist someone for a religious reason, actual human beings do as is their right. And although we ” don’t normally allow religious practices to enter commerce as a basis to blacklist a customer” there is no reason not to especially taking into consideration freedom of speech, religion and not to be enslaved.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  190. BTW Harcourt, the notion that “we don’t normally allow religious practices to enter commerce” I find repulsive. “Normally allow”, what does that mean? Does that mean free people in a free society are forbidden from using their religious beliefs as a template for their business actions, decisions and philosophy? So Chick-Fil-A should be forced to open on Sundays because failing to do so reflects their diabolical belief in Christ? The local Kosher or Halal establishment should be forced to sell BLT sandwiches lest they “offend” a Presbyterian?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  191. We more than ”don’t normally allow religious practices to enter commerce as a basis to blacklist a customer”. It’s illegal under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Discrimination on the basis of race, religion, sex, or national origin is forbidden to any business whose activities affect interstate commerce.

    nk (dbc370)

  192. “Brian – According to the business owner what he objected to was the proposed message on the T-shirts, not the identity of people ordering the shirts….Newspapers reject advertisements all the time. Do they get sued for discrimination for it?”

    okay, but what about a Christian bakery that decides they don’t want to print “Mazel tov on your bar mitzvah” because they don’t believe in Judaism? or a Jewish-owned baker won’t make a cake that says “Happy Confirmation”. Just trying to gauge where our line is.

    Brian Geary (6af3a8)

  193. That should also be legal under First Amendment freedom of speech. You can make me say, “Yes, Mr. Netanyahu, of course we will rent you a room” but you cannot make me say “I love Israel”. Or even “I kind of like bagels”.

    nk (dbc370)

  194. That is quite simple. I interact with reality. My actions can be measured and tested. There are birth records and tax returns that can be used as supporting evidence. There are government ids. Regardless my existence has no bearing (I should hope) on why you accept outrageous claims on faith.
    Claiming that I am not worthy to hear what evidence you base your faith on is a cop out. What’s your best reason? Let’s see how good it is.

    Gil (c7c411) — 11/11/2014 @ 12:16 pm

    178.Sayeth Gil, the bigot “I interact with reality.” If there was ever an assertion without evidence ….
    JD (285732) — 11/11/2014 @ 12:19 pm

    187.So Gil meets Descartes … and Gil disappears.
    nk (dbc370) — 11/11/2014 @ 1:12 pm

    Not sure what comment you are referring to, nk, but that is sort of where I’m going.

    Actually, Gil, you have no proof that everything is a not really false stimulation by a an evil demon, or a far advanced neuroscientist that has virtual people as a hobby. Everything you think is “proof” is an assumption on your part.

    If you want to get to the fundamentals of what you know with certainty, it may be that there is “mind”, something that thinks and can think abstractly.
    But I am way over my head here, having only ever taken 3 courses of philosophy in college and a smattering of the thousands of books published. Professor Nagel and others are all over this.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  195. It’s not that you aren’t worthy to hear my evidence, Gil, it is that my time is better spent on other things than trying to explain something to a person who doesn’t want to consider the explanation. I owe you nothing.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  196. Descartes is the “I think therefore I am” guy.

    nk (dbc370)

  197. Actually, Gil, you have no proof that everything is a not really false stimulation by a an evil demon, or a far advanced neuroscientist that has virtual people as a hobby. Everything you think is “proof” is an assumption on your part. If you want to get to the fundamentals of what you know with certainty, it may be that there is “mind”, something that thinks and can think abstractly.

    This is a distraction.

    I dont need to know something to an absolute certainty in order to live my life. Do you know the sun will rise tomorrow morning to a 100% certainty? I dont. But I plan my activities as if it is going to because it has always risen in the morning and I dont have a good reason to think it wont. You are right I dont know if im just in a simulation but i have no reason to think that I am and am living my life regardless. Again whether or not I am absolutely certain of anything does not have any bearing on why you believe in a magical invisible man in the sky who loves us all but engineered the Hindu’s existence in absence of revelation so that they must all go to hell for eternity. A god that would punish someone infinitely for a finite crime of not believing. Hey can you even control what you believe? If I held a gun to your head and told you to believe that 2+2=5 could you do it?

    But I digress.

    It’s not that you aren’t worthy to hear my evidence, Gil,

    Youre right. It’s that you dont have any.

    I owe you nothing

    No you do not. You owe it to yourself.

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  198. I reject your faulty premises and flawed analogy, Gil. I state you are a bigot against Christians based on your actions here. It is almost beyond dispute. Aflleck’s “analysis” was as deep as a thimble, and as insightful as the drivel you vomit out every time you come by.

    Im a bigot for expressing views on Christianity. But Bill Maher and Sam Harris are not islamaphobes for expressing ideas on Islam.

    Special Pleading much?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  199. Gil, is your apostrophe in the same place as MD’s God?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  200. Again, I reject your mendoucheous premise.

    You just go on living your life. It is sad that your life is so heavily predicated on being a bigot towards Christians.

    JD (fb69bb)

  201. Like a dog to its vomit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  202. dalyrocks, it’s natural.

    nk (dbc370)

  203. mendoucheous

    JD are you trying to start a thing?

    Gil (ca1c4f)

  204. “Hey, a pig like that you don’t eat all at once.”

    Bet you nk knows the joke.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  205. No. A friend coined that wonderfully descriptive and elegantly simple term. It just fits so naturally for a certain type of person. Like you.

    JD (285732)


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