Patterico's Pontifications

10/29/2014

Nurse Refuses To Remain In Voluntary Quarantine

Filed under: General — Dana @ 7:12 am



[guest post by Dana]

A health care worker under voluntary quarantine refuses to remain under voluntary quarantine? That’s never happened before, right?

After being granted permission to return to Maine from a controversial quarantine in New Jersey, a defiant Kaci Hickox does not “plan on sticking to the guidelines” and is “appalled” by the home quarantine policies “forced” on her. Ironically, it appears Maine officials will have to go to court to make sure that Hickox complies with Maine’s “voluntary” 21-day quarantine period. The quarantine applies to all health care workers who have treated Ebola patients:

“I truly believe this policy is not scientifically nor constitutionally just, and so I’m not going to sit around and be bullied around by politicians and be forced to stay in my home when I am not a risk to the American public,” she said, saying she’s in “perfectly good health.”

Department of Health and Human Services Commissioner Mary Mayhew commented:

“We do not want to have to legally enforce in-home quarantine,” she said. “We’re confident that selfless health workers who were brave enough to care for Ebola patients in a foreign country will be willing to take reasonable steps to protect residents of their own country. However we are willing to pursue legal authority if necessary to ensure risk is minimized for Mainers.”

And if you’re still struggling or confused about Ebola protocols and procedures, don’t worry, so is the president.

–Dana

228 Responses to “Nurse Refuses To Remain In Voluntary Quarantine”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (8e74ce)

  2. Just moments before Dana posted this new nurse thread I posted the following comment on yesterdays ebola thread. It belongs here.
    While I thank them for their service in Africa I am not feeling the love or respect for the Doctors Without Borders “Heroes” that I really would like to. That’s because the two persons representing that organization who are most recently and notably in the news (Kaci and young Doctor Spencer) increasingly appear not to have their heads on straight and come across as holier than thou jerks who were comfortable with stretching the truth if it served their own purposes. I truly hope DWB did not tell Spencer to lie to police (supposedly he contacted DWB first when his ebola temperature rose) and Kaci of course was released into the custody of DWB who were supposedly going to oversee her isolation in Maine to which she is now saying FU.

    http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/ebola-doctor-lied-about-his-nyc-travels-police/

    elissa (65787f)

  3. If they grab her today, they don’t have to give her a hearing until Tuesday, unless Election Day is considered a holiday, in which case it’s not until Wednesday. It’s something. But if she does not have symptoms by then, I’m pretty sure they’ll have to let her go.

    nk (dbc370)

  4. From my window I think Kaci is further muddling the narrative and may be hurting Obama not helping him. What do you all think?

    elissa (65787f)

  5. Quarantines are for little people. Not for DWB or NBC’s Dr. Nancy Snyderman. Of course given their comfy relationship with the Obama Administration, NBC probably got one of those famous exemptions that BO hands out to his minions.

    Ipso Fatso (10964d)

  6. I feel sorry for her. I don’t think she’s any kind of hero or saint, but she is an American and she should not be bullied. I think if she does not get sick or spread the infection, it will hurt the agenda of those who want to make Ebola America’s problem and not just Africa’s problem. She may also become the poster child for tougher quarantine laws, alongside Craig Spencer. Him I don’t feel sorry for. And I think that everybody’s in a tizzy because nobody trusts Obama to handle this. Even his most fervent supporters are only HOPEing.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. To politicize this is past disgusting. Both of them, and their know-it-all lawyers (but I repeat myself)seem to believe that they know more than anyone else regarding the transmission of this disease.

    Anyone with an ounce of decency and character would isolate him or herself. (even if it’s just a tiny chance) Please cry me a river about how wonderful both of them are because of their great humanitarian “feelings”.

    If just one person (which is very likely) is infected because of their irresponsible acts, I believe both doc and nurse should be sued. I also think that the lawyers who are so knowledgable about how this disease is spread should also be sued.

    Their arrogance is absolutely beyond any understanding of any rational and compassionate person.

    Charlotte (fc15f6)

  8. Wasn’t Typhoid Mary in perfectly good health?

    They’re just treating her like a gun anyways, what’s the big deal?

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  9. Greetings:

    Back in the joy of my youth in the Bronx of the last ’50s and ’60s, my father spent a good bit of his time imparting his folk wisdom to me in order to smooth my way through the world. One of his gems went, “Never trust a man in patent leather shoes or a woman with painted eyebrows.”

    Last evening, I came across a picture of the most victimized nurse ever with painted eyebrows.

    11B40 (844d04)

  10. Dejectedhead, are there asymptomatic carriers of Ebola (like typhoid)? That is the entire conversation. So far, all the experts say no. I’m hoping that Amber and Nina are, and gave it to Obama, but that’s because I’m feeling a little cranky. I’ll get over it.

    BTW, Typhoid Mary was locked up for life in a New York asylum where she went insane from the confinement. People are correct to say we have a long history of quarantines. It’s not a nice one

    nk (dbc370)

  11. I truly hate to start sounding like a conspiracy nut …

    But why is it that Obama is actively trying to destroy states’ quarantine powers? I cannot come up with a rational explanation for what Obama and CDC is doing. Is this the ultimate Alinsky move to create an Ebola catastrophe in the United States?

    SPQR (1c89a2)

  12. SPQR-
    For starters, Obama can’t stand someone disagreeing with him and getting away with it.
    I am not ruling out anything else, but I think that by itself is an adequate explanation.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  13. SPQR… God help us! Either the Smartest Man To Have Ever Held The Office is really The Most Incompetent Man To Have Ever Held The Office or you’re on to something.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  14. Obama’s so thin-skinned he could probably be infected by a wayeard glance from a carrier.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  15. Considering what was done to finally beat Smallpox, it’s a damn good thing we did it when we did.

    Have Blue (e97630)

  16. #10. I do not know if Ebola has asymptomatic carriers and I do realize that it is a different conversation.

    Now, Typhoid Mary getting locked up for a lifelong quarantine is a little different than staying at home for 21 days too

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  17. Not a hero.
    “Selfless health care worker…” that’s the point where I spit my coffee.

    Here’s hoping that a government official with a badge, nightstick, and a temper on the shortish side, pays Daddy’s little princess a visit. I hope her false sense of righteousness gets the better of her judgement during the laying down of the law, and that he lets slip a few Nazi comparisons, minutes before a crew in spacesuits tackles her stupid ass to truss her up like Hannibal Lecter and trundle her off to spend the remainder of 21 days in a Cool Hand Luke style hot box.

    Hows that failure to communicate treating you now, baby!

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  18. If it were up to me, her passport would have been revoked so she’d be spending the rest of her days in Burkina Faso among her adopted people.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  19. papertiger – She’s an American and so am I and I don’t see any attempted bullying going on.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  20. This woman needs to be put down hard. She made the choice to hang with Ebola patients, she made the choice to come back here. She needs to accept the consequences of those choices. 21 days will not kill her. And on another note, we now learn the doctor who ‘self quarantined’ actually didn’t per the credit card receipts he was forced to turn over which showed he was out moving among the population. He needs to be put down hard as well. Possibly arrested.

    UncleDan (efea20)

  21. I’m detecting a trend regarding the character of self appointed American medical “heros” out adventuring to poor third world countries.

    It’s kind of a prevailing ugliness.

    You might have noticed it too.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  22. I just can’t imagine being that selfish.
    If she spends the winter in the Allagash it would cure her head.

    mg (31009b)

  23. Typhoid Mary was a sad, sad story. But she needed to be locked up; she
    was repeatedly told she was making people sick by taking food service jobs,
    and she kept skipping town, taking food service jobs, and getting people sick.

    matt d (7b78f2)

  24. Bet you $10 nurse Kaci Hickox read “health care worker” in the local paper, referring to hers truly , and took umbrage at the press using the generic term instead of her full medical title.

    Because she went to school for that title, and damn it she earned it!

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  25. If you look at the DWB protocols, don’t know whether they are still up, they tell they they can return to work and treat patients as long as they are asymptomatic. BFD. DWB does not set rules in the U.S., bunch of fwench surrender monkeys running the joint.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  26. Are there any photos of Kaci actually working with Ebola patients? We only have her word for her “selfless” work. I think she is a “plant” like the many fake insurance-denied people during Obama’s first campaign. The Left has no shame.

    Margaret McCarthy (b5205a)

  27. Fake eyebrows, too, Margaret. Don’t forget the fake eyebrows.

    nk (dbc370)

  28. Slap her butt into a ICU Jail Ward at the local hospital, under armed guard, and then bill her for the privilege.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  29. SPQR (1c89a2) — 10/29/2014 @ 9:48 am

    With the unrecorded dispersal of thousands of border-crosser’s throughout the USA, many with communicable diseases, he seems to be setting out to do just that.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  30. “We do not want to have to legally enforce in-home quarantine,” she said

    Why?

    This seems to imply that if they took it to court, they might lose the case, or they might get an opinion that would declare just exactly when they can do such a thing and when they cannot and they wouldn’t like that.

    And/or it would cost them money to maintain the quarantine.

    And/or their own medical workers oppose it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  31. “I truly believe this policy is not scientifically nor constitutionally just, and so I’m not going to sit around and be bullied around by politicians and be forced to stay in my home when I am not a risk to the American public,”

    She already had a negative ebola test, which reduces the probability that she has ebola from about 1 in 100 or 200 * (she might not have realized it was that high) to 1 in maybe 100,000.

    And if she had it, the chances she would infect anyone before finding out is even less.

    And the incubation period isn’t really as long as 21 days, either.

    * 1 in 100 to 200 is based on the fact that Dr. Thomas Frieden said about 5 such health care workers return to the United States every day. Ebola, or the number of people working in ebola wards, has been stable for about a month, so take Sept 15 to October 15 or so. There would be approximately 5 x 30 or 150 returnees in that period, maybe add a bit more, and there’s one diagnosed case.

    So 1 in 100 to 200 as a first approximation.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  32. elissa (65787f) — 10/29/2014 @ 7:20 am

    (supposedly he contacted DWB first when his ebola temperature rose)

    I read that too. Specifically that DWB told him to call them if he got a fever etc. DWB told the authorities – they didn’t tell him to tell anyone. They started the ball rolling themselves.

    He probably lied either to make himself out not to be bad, or, maybe a bit more likely, because he didn’t want anyone stopping people from going over there (because there was no requirement or request that he quarantine himself – just take his temperature and watch for symptoms)

    The New York Post says his movements were traced through his Metrocard.

    ….until cops looked at his MetroCard the sources said.

    “He told the authorities that he self-quarantined. Detectives then reviewed his credit-card statement and MetroCard..

    A metrocard wouldn’t even have to be tied to a specific individuaal, or it could be the wrong individual, but people have them, and use them for a while, it it records when anyone used it to use a bus or subway – and paid for it with the metrocard.

    It has the time (rounded down to the previous 3-minute interval I think) and the bus route and direction, or the subway station where somebody entered the system. This would be even for pay per ride cards. It’s proven useful in many police investigations, even though the whole recordkeeping is hit or miss. The outlines of the travels of a woman killed by anthrax in 2001, were traced through her Metrocard.

    They probably looked at the metrocard first, which is easier to do. They just have to ask the MTA, after asking him if he had a metrocard. Probably only afterward did they fill things out a bit with his credit card activities.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  33. #29.
    “Slap her butt…”
    -askeptic

    Now she’s so offended she HAS to be released. Thanks a lot askeptic!

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  34. Well, that settles it, SF has spoken…..
    Release the Kraken….err…..Kaci!
    What could go wrong?

    askeptic (efcf22)

  35. If we are worried about absolute numbers…

    What more people die from, they say, is flu.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/business/experts-oppose-ebola-travel-ban-saying-it-would-cut-off-worst-hit-countries.html

    Mr. Bhattacharji pointed out that after the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, all flights in the United States were grounded for days. That radical measure had an unexpected consequence: it delayed the flu season by two weeks. It was the only example he could point to where travel restrictions actually slowed down the spread of a disease.

    Of course flu is something where there is a relatively high risk (comparitively) of getting it, but a small chance (usually) of it being fatal.

    Someone has a much smaller chance of getting ebola, but the survival rate in an African clinic is something like 37%.

    The second one is more scary.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  36. Maine Governor sending State Police to enforce home quarantine on drama queen ebola nurse.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  37. For starters, Obama can’t stand someone disagreeing with him and getting away with it.
    I am not ruling out anything else, but I think that by itself is an adequate explanation.

    I think the fellow who described him as ‘an incredibly petty man’ has identified an architectural feature of his character. Most of the time, he just seems hollow (and mendacious). Little flakes of spite are what fills him.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  38. I feel bad for wanting her to get Ebola and to give it to her lawyer… Nina Pham type Ebola. No death, just some humbling experience.
    Not gonna happen though.
    I wonder if this woman has Sandra Flukes autograph next to her I Heart Elizabeth Warren sticker

    steveg (794291)

  39. Semi off topic: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/10/rise-generic-drug-prices-tragic-patients.html

    Not only are new drugs expensive, so now are old ones.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  40. So . . . this woman does not want the government to make her healthcare decisions for her.

    I wonder who she voted for.

    Icy (fec6f2)

  41. From my window I think Kaci is further muddling the narrative and may be hurting Obama not helping him. What do you all think?

    elissa @ #4

    It’s established Kaci and the NY DWB case are fundamentally selfish people. No controversy on that point.

    Why did they go to Ebola land? The credential isn’t in proportion to the risk and inconvenience.
    There’s another layer to these stories. How much does DWB pay to entice 200+ [selfish?] medical people daily, to hop on a plane?
    Could these Nightengale’s be laboring under the proverbial mountain of student loan debt?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  42. Apologies to descendents of Gogi Grant…

    Oh, the wayward nurse is a reckless nurse
    A reckless nurse who yearns to wander
    And she was known as Ebola Nurse
    if folks get sick, better call a hearse

    In a lonely shack by a railroad track
    The Main in Maine he said go live there
    And I guess the sound of the crunching bones
    Life’s sometimes fair, she got et by a bear

    [Chorus:]
    Oh, the wayward nurse is a reckless nurse
    A reckless nurse who yearns to wander
    And she was known as Ebola Nurse
    if folks get sick, better call a hearse

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  43. Colonel Haiku, that is spectacular!

    htom (9b625a)

  44. thanks, htom….

    I feel so ashamed
    a Google of Gogi Grant
    shows she’s still topside!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  45. You guys understand that this girl is neither a public official nor a public figure, right? She did not thrust herself into the limelight — two fat state governors shoved her there.

    nk (dbc370)

  46. so she was serving a fellowship with the CDC, in Southern Nevada, which is just the place, to be handling pandemics, re enterovirus,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  47. Watching this narcissistic ditz top the news in the final days before the election is mighty curious optics indeed. I am having a hard time understanding how keeping ebola in the headlines can possibly be what the Democrats want–especially the focus on her recalcitrance to isolation after Chuck Hagel ordered 21 days in seclusion for all returning from ebola hot zone GIs. Do they think young single women will relate to her (I don’t see how) or is she just a loose cannon that is flummoxing them and a person they don’t know what to do with (I hope)?

    Also, does anyone know if she is related to Debbie Poodleman? That hair!!!

    elissa (65787f)

  48. Oh, you better believe she thrust herself into the limelight, nk.

    elissa (65787f)

  49. “She did not thrust herself into the limelight — two fat state governors shoved her there.”

    PURE COMEDY GOLD

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. Better two fat state governors than to be sandwiched by Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  51. In a similar vein I get a kick how this clueless WH can’t grasp how Obama makes things worse by doubling down on the Pentagon’s enforced 21 day quarantine of military personnel while President Silky Terrier keeps yapping about how disrespectful it is to quarantine medical personnel.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_EBOLA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-29-16-06-46

    …Obama said doctors and nurses from the United States who have volunteered to fight Ebola in West Africa are American heroes who must be treated with dignity and respect…

    Just like capital gains taxes don’t exist to raise revenue, but to punish inequality, quarantines don’t exist to protect public safety but to show who we do and do not respect.

    They don’t get it.

    …Still, the Pentagon announced guidelines Wednesday that said U.S. troops returning from Ebola response missions in West Africa will be kept in supervised isolation for 21 days. Obama has said the military’s situation is different from that of civilians, in part because troops are not in West Africa by choice…

    They are in the military by choice. Apparently that’s not a choice we need to respect.

    …White House spokesman Josh Earnest rejected suggestions that the policies employed by the Pentagon and states that are stricter than guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention conveys a mixed message to the American public.

    “The fact of the matter is, those differences in application of the policy have not interfered with the ability of the federal

    Yes, Josh. When people find out if they, or their sons or daughters or sisters or brothers or friends, were stupid enough to join the military they don’t deserve the same respect Obama reserves for people who go into health care, their first concern is that the government isn’t being inconvenienced. I’m sure every soldier and sailor kept in isolation in Italy for three weeks will be pleased to know that they aren’t hindering the government’s ability to respond to Ebola. And neither are the doctors and nurses who get to go home to their families right away because to treat them like soldiers and sailors would be too disrespectful.

    Keep it up, Prom Queen & Co.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  52. PURE COMEDY GOLD
    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/29/2014 @ 3:57 pm

    Yes, dear.

    nk (dbc370)

  53. Kaci Hiccup does NOT have to be quarantined and monitored because SCIENCE! She isn’t sneezing… she exchanged no bodily fluids with anyone in Africa… she ate no bushmeat… except for that cute little monkey with the red ass… it IS cruel and unusual to ask that she follow the rules like all care workers who were there to specifically treat Ebola cases, y’all!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  54. Also, does anyone know if she is related to Debbie Poodleman? That hair!!!

    Meeeow!

    nk (dbc370)

  55. Fat governors!!! OMG!!! The horror, the horror!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  56. I know exactly what’s going to be the result of all this. Congress will give the CDC $3 billion for an Ebola vaccine, $2.9 billion of which it will spend on “conferences” in Tahiti, and it will say it was what all of you were clamoring for.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. Stop bullying the drama queen ebola nurse with fat thug governors and taking her clothes. Give her a few more shyster lawyers to threaten ludicrous litigation, please, please, please!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  58. Kaci is a drama queen ebola health care professional. She should not be quarantined like a mere soldier who has not been exposed to ebola.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  59. Considering that she went where a killer disease separates the men from the frightened old women; and considering that if she has Ebola she’ll be the first to die from it; I think that the drama queens are some other people.

    nk (dbc370)

  60. Also, does anyone know if she is related to Debbie Poodleman? That hair!!!

    Meeeow!

    nk (dbc370) — 10/29/2014 @ 4:21 pm

    Good point, nk. Saucer of milk for one, please,

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  61. If she does come down with it and has transmitted it to innocent people, may God have mercy on her soulI hate to think of all the babies, young children and old people that she would have put at risk… again, just how helpful is a person who volunteers to go to Africa to treat these unfortunate victims if that person will not follow the protocols and the rules upon their return to their home country? Not very.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  62. Clearly the biggest issue is the weight of the respective governors.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. That she should be under quarantine isn’t even debatable!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  64. She seems awfully darn cocksure that she can’t possibly get ebola. How can she be so positive she won’t when other caregivers have? I am starting to wonder if she ever treated, let alone even got near a sick ebola patient in Sierra Leone or if she had a different role to play. Something’s hinky with her.

    elissa (65787f)

  65. teh Ebola Nurse
    searches for teh camera
    Andy Warhol’s Curse

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. “Considering that she went where a killer disease separates the men from the frightened old women”

    nk – Do we have information on how the disease discriminates as you claim? I don’t think so.

    I think it’s great she went there to help, but I don’t think she should risk spreading the disease to people here upon returning. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  67. 50. “She did not thrust herself into the limelight — two fat state governors shoved her there.”

    PURE COMEDY GOLD

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/29/2014 @ 3:57 pm

    To go with the Ebola Shot (Amarula Cream Liqueur with a float of 190 proof Spirytus Delikatesowy [served in a double shot glass]) I’m working on a drink inspired by Kaci Hickox. I’m thinking of using 3 parts gin and two parts lemon juice with a dash or two of bitters in an old fashioned glass as a starting point.

    Just as long as I end up with something sour and bitter.

    I can’t decide if I should call it the Jersey Nurse or the Maine Martyr.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  68. “Something’s hinky with her.”

    She’s a goddam Obama supporter… helloooo!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  69. How can she be so positive she won’t when other caregivers have?

    negative test and no symptoms fror several days.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  70. call it the Wild Thrill Hickox.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  71. She’ll be negative until she isn’t Sammah

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  72. The Colon Cleanser, Steve!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  73. Clearly the biggest issue is the weight of the respective governors.

    Nah, it’s the hair and the painted eyebrows.

    nk (dbc370)

  74. *old fashioned glass = a glass for serving Old Fashioneds = a short tumbler

    It wasn’t clear from the context that I wasn’t talking about just some old-school glass.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  75. 71. call it the Wild Thrill Hickox.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/29/2014 @ 4:44 pm

    Yes, I’m stealing that.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  76. Add a serious dash of fast-acting laxative and an emetic, Steve. Give ’em the full “E” ticket ride!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. a little ground glass might induce bleeding, as well!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  78. =negative test and no symptoms for several days.=
    Sam obviously is not a follower of the official minimum 21 day ebola incubation school of science. Apparently there must be a fly by the seat of your pants on-line school of ebola diagnostics out there somewhere, though. You know, for those who prefer not to be inconvenienced.

    elissa (65787f)

  79. Coronello @77, I already thought of the emetic.

    You have to drink it while watching old Obama speeches on YouTube.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  80. This is what the Maine legislature requires:

    Upon the department’s submission of an affidavit showing by clear and convincing evidence that the person or property which is the subject of the petition requires immediate custody in order to avoid a clear and immediate public health threat, a judge of the District Court or justice of the Superior Court may grant temporary custody of the subject of the petition to the department and may order specific emergency care, treatment or evaluation. [1989, c. 487, §11 (NEW).]

    Link http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/22/title22sec810.html

    nk (dbc370)

  81. Simple solution:
    For those who refuse to accede to a 21-say quarantine upon returning to the USA, refuse to allow them to board the plane in Africa.

    You know, we never had this problem at Ellis Island:
    You went into quarantine, or were placed on the first ship back to your country of departure – and the ship-owner footed that bill or wasn’t allowed landing rights in the USA.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  82. that will have them vomiting on their knees, Steve!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  83. askeptic is exactly correct. If the nurse won’t submit to quarantine, send the bitch back to Africa. Case closed. BTW, send her friggin’ lawyer with her.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  84. SCOTUS has already ruled on the public safety taking precedence over the rights of the whiner.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  85. And in 1975 all you needed to re-enter the United States, if you had lost your passport, was your voters registration card as proof of citizenship; and you gave your three-foot souvenir sword, to stow in the odd-size carry-on compartment, to the stewardess as you boarded the aircraft. Ahh, the good old days.

    nk (dbc370)

  86. Looking at the about page from MSF {Medicins Sans Frontiers} I found the ah ha moment.

    Under the header Field Work/ Benefits and Opportunities, in the bullet points.

    – Letter of support for student loan deferment
    – Payment of interest on student loans after first field assignment and for six months thereafter
    – Psychological support before and after mission
    – Access to an Employee Assistance Program

    Is Obamacare imposing hiring restrictions on major healthcare providers such that it leaves people like Kaci Snodgrass with few options besides tending to primitives in festering swampish hell?

    The DWB’s are marketing specific to that type of desperate.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  87. That would make the original egola carrying Doc, the Christian, Obama’s henchman, allowed in due to the congruency of his personal narrative with the pr agenda Obama wants to push.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  88. “But why is it that Obama is actively trying to destroy states’ quarantine powers? I cannot come up with a rational explanation for what Obama and CDC is doing. Is this the ultimate Alinsky move to create an Ebola catastrophe in the United States?”

    I’ve read some dumb things on the Internet but this one is one of the better ones.

    This sort of hysteria hurts the response and promotes public idiocy to those who work or have anything to do with trying to aid the effort to stop Ebola.

    butlerj (8df702)

  89. It’s been going on since 1997, papertiger, and it was the AMA, the hospital administrators, both sides of the aisle in Congress, and Clinton. It would make several episodes on House of Cards how the new doctors and nurses got f***ed to protect the administrators and the old guard.

    nk (dbc370)

  90. The CDC’s standard for detention is more statist than Maine’s — it’s only reasonable belief. So if Obama is trying to preempt the states it would be to make it easier to quarantine people.

    nk (dbc370)

  91. Anything that disagrees with the science-y narrative is fear, panic, and hysteria.

    JD (285732)

  92. I just read the words ‘science-y narrative’ and I think I’m going nuts.

    The university that this nurse’s boyfriend goes to is talking about keeping him away for 21 days if he has an direct contact with her, and students are talking about boycotting classes if he does return. That’s the sort of thing going on and I get to read words like ‘science-y narrative.’

    butlerj (8df702)

  93. That train has obviously left the station and you’re already on it, butler.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  94. butlerj the operative phrase in that is “university students”.

    They go into life long debt for that quality of education.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  95. Oh the Ebola freakout ride left long ago true.

    butlerj (8df702)

  96. Yes, since we are not wearing lab coats and saying science we are full of fear, panic, and hysteria.

    Because, science.

    JD (285732)

  97. It is nice when someone comes along and proves a point we have been making.

    JD (285732)

  98. There’s no ‘full.’ It can be as casual as a silly online comment.

    butlerj (8df702)

  99. butlerj wants to tell other people how to live their lives because he/she knows best.

    elissa (65787f)

  100. Yes that’s why I’m calling for quarentine on silly.

    butlerj (8df702)

  101. Here is some great science-y narrative for you –

    American service men and women, who they claim are no no no not in contact with Ebola patients are under quarantine on another continent. Because haircuts, and they didn’t volunteer.

    Healthcare workers, who are in contact with active Evola patients should not be quarantined, should threaten to sue everyone in the country, take planes, trains, automobiles, eat soup, and otherwise be trusted to self quarantine and recognize the potential dangers.

    Because, science.

    JD (285732)

  102. If you are going to try to act all superior, learn how to spell.

    JD (285732)

  103. somewhere around the time of the 3,500 deaths including the 270 medical professionals,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  104. the consternation that butler willfully interprets as “fear” or “panic” is nothing more than an amazed concern that the Obama administration, federal government and others responsible for public safety and protection of the homeland are about as clueless, unprepared and inept as policymakers/enforcers could be.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  105. You can leave yor self-imposed quarantine in 21 days, butlerj

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  106. “If you are going to try to act all superior, learn how to spell.”

    “active Evola patients”

    Anyway. So is it wrong to order soldiers somewhere for 21 days? And yes, people do volunteer for military service.

    butlerj (8df702)

  107. ya Big Thilly!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  108. “the consternation that butler willfully interprets as “fear” or “panic” is nothing more than an amazed concern that the Obama administration, federal government and others responsible for public safety and protection of the homeland are about as clueless, unprepared and inept as policymakers/enforcers could be.”

    As opposed to… the governor of NJ.

    butlerj (8df702)

  109. I drove one of those Lotus Evolas once… okay, I lied.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  110. I am not the one acting superior, buttlerj.

    Please explain why it is science that people not exposed should be quarantined, but people exposed should not be. Because a doctor is volunteering and doing God’s work, and the service men and women are not. Is that your science-y reason?

    Explain how Christie is different than NY, IL, CT, as tomorrow, Maine? Science?

    You are funny, butttlerj. You amuse me.

    JD (285732)

  111. Yeah Maine is getting it wrong too, they’re just late to the game. Apparently Connecticut put some guy who did IT work in West africa under house arrest, and is getting away with it too.

    People not contagious should not be in quarantine decided on by politicians. Military people go where they are told to go.

    butlerj (8df702)

  112. Does Jerry Brown qualify as “fat governor”? Cause he’s issued a blanket 21 day quarantine for Docs from Liberia also.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  113. ==People not contagious should not be in quarantine decided on by politicians. ==

    Ah, but where is that elusive violet hour that falls between non-contagious and contagious? That’s really the important question that no one has the answer to, isn’t it?.

    elissa (65787f)

  114. well considering that mr. spencer took six days to become symptomatic, about as long as duncan, I wouldn’t take a chance, in releasing them in under a week at least,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  115. But you’re not contagious when you’re not symptomatic, and how contagious you are increases with your symptoms as the viral load in your fluids gets higher.

    Oh wait that’s more science-y narrative. Nevermind.

    butlerj (8df702)

  116. “Does Jerry Brown qualify as “fat governor”? Cause he’s issued a blanket 21 day quarantine for Docs from Liberia also.”

    Curious why his order only applies to direct contact that occurs in africa, not, say, Dallas.

    butlerj (8df702)

  117. You have an issue, butlerj, go complain on the internet. Otherwise have your mom send some hot chocolate down to the basement and get in your jammies.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. Interesting comment to put on a blog. Thanks.

    butlerj (8df702)

  119. If not politicians,(i.e. state executives and lawmakers as representatives of the people) who exactly should authorize quarantines, butlerj? And before you answer think hard about who actually has the legal authority that would be required.

    elissa (65787f)

  120. California’s Penal Code Section 1473 is habeas corpus. It’s fine. People can challenge their detention. It’s kind of a minimal standard, unlike Maine’s, but it’s not some government functionary exercising unfettered discretion. Beats the WWII Japanese internment camps for sure.

    nk (dbc370)

  121. Legal authority is one thing. Whether it’s a good idea is another.

    butlerj (8df702)

  122. It would be helpful for future reference to have daily blood draws for every returning HCW exposed to Ebola. One would not necessarily have to do the blood tests for Ebola in real time, but it would be interesting to run the tests for anyone who eventually became sick and see when there is enough virus in the blood to show up in relation to when symptoms began.
    Though the numbers will be small (in one way, hopefully none) and not conclusive of anything, it would be interesting data.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  123. Curious why his order only applies to direct contact that occurs in africa, not, say, Dallas.

    Err, does California have any kind of tourism industry? At all?

    nk (dbc370)

  124. ‘bola Haze all in my brain,
    Terrible things runnin’ out my drain
    feelin’ funny but I don’t know why
    ‘scuse me while I kiss this guy

    ‘bola Haze all around,
    don’t know if I can hold food down.
    Am I shartin’ or meltin’ out my ass
    Whatever it is, my doctor better get here fas’

    Help me
    Help me
    Oh no, oh

    Yeah, ‘bola Haze bleedin’ out my eyes,
    don’t know if it’s day or night,
    It’s got me blowin’, blowin’ my nose
    Ain’t got no Tide an’ I’m soilin’ all my clothes

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  125. And I just saw that Corpulent Christie had the girl in the tent for three days. That’s inexcusable. Even the first day was bad enough. They had time to isolate a proper room. No wonder she’s pissed.

    nk (dbc370)

  126. In one way this isn’t really hard. The issue is whether one likes to play Russian Roulette or not.
    The risk of any individual HCW coming down with Ebola upon reentry to the US is small, but not zero and not negligible. The potential consequences of someone with Ebola passing it on to others are significant. Even if there are no secondary cases there will need to be a significant effort made to identify and monitor contacts, and questions as to whether those people will need to be isolated in some way (like the Cleveland Clinic nurses told to stay home for 21 days after riding the same flight as Ms. Vinson).

    The one major difference is when one plays Russian Roulette they are putting only themselves at risk, walking around unsure of when you might come down with Ebola puts others at risk.

    If there was some certain way to monitor people to predict when they might be contagious then there would be no reason for any kind of isolation, but there isn’t; all we can do is say, “Oh, another hour has gone by without any symptoms, I guess everyone has been safe.”
    And the alternative is, “Well, I guess symptoms started about 30 minutes ago before their shift ended. Oops.”

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  127. therein lies the rub, MD, it doesn’t present itself in the blood, until it’s functionally too late, we saw what it wrought at Dallas Presbyterian, because of inane contradictory protocols, similar FDA rules that precluded more advanced testing equipment et al,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  128. #117

    But you’re not contagious when you’re not symptomatic

    False, they don’t know. Fact is they don’t know.

    how contagious you are increases with your symptoms as the viral load in your fluids gets higher.

    That is common knowledge but the statistics on “how contagious” is unknown. Just like one’s genetic make up may influence it. Or how one’s general health is or one’s immune system.

    So your snark is devoid of actual science just bull shit to justify your politics.

    Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a)

  129. As I’ve said before, I agree with you nk about the details in the manner this person was treated in NJ. Reason would have dictated appealing for/demanding better conditions, not fighting the general idea.

    Colonel, that is in the top 10 of your hit parade.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  130. It would be helpful for future reference to have daily blood draws for every returning HCW exposed to Ebola.

    ? And this would be legal medically ethical under what basis?

    nk (dbc370)

  131. Well thought out and well said, MD in Philly

    elissa (65787f)

  132. I was reading an article on Medscape earlier today that gave some specifics about the difference in Ebola care in Africa and here. In Africa, even if they have testing for Ebola, they may not have access to much of anything else, can’t even monitor potassium, sodium, calcium levels, kidney function, etc. Those very simple things make treatment meaningful in a modern hospital setting.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  133. Jimi would smile, Col.

    mg (31009b)

  134. Butlerj – your act is cute. Care to explain, get all science-y, when a person crosses over from being a symptomatic to symptomatic? Given the actions of the healthcare professionals, do you think they can be trusted to make that determination?

    You simply asserted that the military should do as they are ordered. You did not explain the science-y narrative behind it. I will refresh your memory – Obama swears they will not be working in contact with Ebola patients. Given the Narrative that it is almost impossible to catch unless you eat vomit or feces from a dying patient, why would we need to quarantine the military. Remembef, they are not at all in contact.

    But, people we know who have had direct contact, we should just let them go wherever they want. Self monitor. Trust.

    JD (285732)

  135. Naw, mg, he’d be trippin on eleven different herbs and spices.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  136. Sigh.

    I met her in a truck stop on I-84
    Where we each had a Big Mac and a Cola
    C-O-L-A, Cola
    I asked my doctor what it was I had caught
    And in a frightened voice he said Ebola
    E-B-O-L-A, Ebola
    Now I’m not smart but I can understand
    That I’ll spend all my days sitting on the can
    Now I’m not the world’s most physical guy
    But when I hurled it spread thirty feet wide
    Ebola, E-B-O-L-A, Ebola

    nk (dbc370)

  137. I didn’t say to order it to be done against their will, and I didn’t mean to imply that, though I can see how I was unclear.
    It would be ethical, assuming consent, in improving our knowledge of the disease and under what conditions it can be transmitted.
    If it was a common enough issue, I could see it become mandatory. You don’t have to agree to it, but you can’t come back to the country for 21 days either.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful, for example, if it was discovered that virus actually can’t be detected in the blood until 12 hours after the beginning of symptoms?
    And important to realize it if it shows up 2 days before any symptoms?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  138. LOL nk,
    dueling lyrics.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  139. Yeah, sorry, MD. We might get there with a home grown population yet. We just might.

    nk (dbc370)

  140. Me too, MD in Philly.

    mg (31009b)

  141. I like the concept and phrase “abundance of caution”.
    There’s no reason to freak, but we are going to be extra careful.

    Cue John Lennon:
    All we are saying,
    is don’t take a chance …

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  142. Thanks for the compliments,
    by God’s grace after much pontification I was able to express myself relatively clearly and concisely.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  143. “Care to explain, get all science-y, when a person crosses over from being a symptomatic to symptomatic?”

    Seems to me it would be continuum.

    “Given the actions of the healthcare professionals, do you think they can be trusted to make that determination? ”

    In fact I think they would be the ones best placed to do this. Doctors in CT were fine with being around that IT volunteer.

    I haven’t heard any science-y narrative at all behind the military order.

    When you use the term ‘direct contact,’ are you referring to medical professionals treating patients, while wearing protective gear? Should the staff at Bellevue be in 21 day quarantine? The folks who worked on those 2 Dallas nurses?

    butlerj (8df702)

  144. “And I just saw that Corpulent Christie had the girl in the tent for three days.”

    nk – What was wrong with that luxury tent? It was probably way better than she experienced in Africa, plus if it has a portable chemical toilet she had indoor plumbing, which she probably does not have in Maine.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  145. “Given the actions of the healthcare professionals, do you think they can be trusted to make that determination? ”
    In fact I think they would be the ones best placed to do this.

    I don’t think you understood the point.
    Two doctors who said they were going to maintain isolation did not, and one of them came down with Ebola.
    That is pretty obvious evidence to say they cannot be trusted making determination for themselves.
    All other HCW can blame them for the bad press.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  146. MD – points fly right past this clown.

    JD (285732)

  147. The folks who worked on those 2 Dallas nurses?
    butlerj (8df702) — 10/29/2014 @ 7:57 pm

    What do you think? How did they get it?
    If you want to make an argument that there is a difference in risk between someone unfamiliar with the protocols and people especially trained like the staff at Emory and NIH, that is a reasonable argument to make,
    but the fact is that more than one DWB professional volunteer has come down with it, clear evidence that first time volunteers are not doing as well as previous DWB personnel in staying free from the disease.
    What is so hard to understand about that?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  148. re; 122 California’s Penal Code Section 1473 is habeas corpus.
    nk

    Still, I’m liking Jerry’s style here sending out a politely worded message, reiterating already existing legislation, that his office will enforce if need be, and some doctors might not have borders, but the State of California does.
    Behave yourselves accordingly.

    That’s roughly the same message that Christy sent.

    Is it just the weight problem why it’s prudent and scientific from Jerry Brown?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  149. JD-
    I understand your perspective.
    Consider my comments aimed at impartial observers.
    Take care all.
    G’ night.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  150. “Two doctors who said they were going to maintain isolation did not, and one of them came down with Ebola.”

    Oh I see it wasn’t about setting policy.

    butlerj (8df702)

  151. Oh, it’s personal. I feel sorry for the girl and I think she got a bad break. She just wanted to go home. Calling Christie and LePage fat — well, they are.

    nk (dbc370)

  152. From a libertarian standpoint, Maine is looking better to me all the time. Clear and convincing evidence. Wow! I should have expected it from a state which allows convicts to vote from prison.

    nk (dbc370)

  153. Maine has an open and shut case that based upon the best available scientific and medical advice the U.S. Government has chosen to quarantine its own employees who have not even been (if we believe that) to ebola for 21 day to minimize the risk of them passing on the disease should they develop it to members of the public, making it a clear and convincing case that health care workers returning from West Africa should also be quarantined for an equivalent period of time out of an abundance of caution in order to reduce the risk of passing on a potentially fatal disease to the public.

    Because Science!!!!

    Thank me later.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  154. The standard for soldiers is “Go there, do that”. Nonetheless, thank you.

    nk (dbc370)

  155. Perfect science, Daley.

    JD (285732)

  156. Butttlerj is a science-denier.

    JD (285732)

  157. 155. The standard for soldiers is “Go there, do that”…

    nk (dbc370) — 10/29/2014 @ 8:44 pm

    Which makes them more likely to be infected with the Ebola virus than similarly situated non-military health care workers, thus requiring the military personnel to be quarantined while others need not be, how again?

    I didn’t know viruses had different standards for soldiers. Live and learn

    Steve57 (e92787)

  158. butlerj (8df702) — 10/29/2014 @ 8:13 pm

    I checked back.
    If you were interested in discussion and understanding, I’d be happy to interact further.
    But I don’t think you are.
    I think policy should be based on evidence and facts, don’t you?

    Why is this an issue? What is the agenda? Why not practice an “abundance of caution”?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  159. Commanders are under different standards for telling soldiers what to do, including going into quarantine; than civilian governments are under for telling private citizens what to do. Or should Kaci stand at attention and salute LePage, too?

    nk (dbc370)

  160. “The standard for soldiers is “Go there, do that”. Nonetheless, thank you.”

    nk – President’s own words said what I said. If government’s own employees follow best advice of best experts, who are we to dispute? Science does not change for non-government employees does it?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  161. “Commanders are under different standards for telling soldiers what to do, including going into quarantine; than civilian governments are under for telling private citizens what to do.”

    nk – Science remains the same for civilians or military. Dumb argument. What difference does status make. Government has ability to quarantine to protect public health, so does military.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  162. Seriously? F***ing seriously? Soldiers obey the same laws as f***ing civilians? The citizens of the state of Maine are under f***ing military law? State public health officers are generals and f***ing generals are state public health officers? What orders f***ing generals give are f***ing legal precedents in state courts?

    nk (dbc370)

  163. Government has ability to quarantine to protect public health, so does military.

    Military has ability to nuke Russia, so does Maine.

    nk (dbc370)

  164. You need to get over your Kaci crush, nk. It’s affecting your brain. And she’s not worth it. She’s a “type” that women everywhere recognize and dislike. :)

    elissa (193d7b)

  165. “Seriously? F***ing seriously? Soldiers obey the same laws as f***ing civilians?”

    nk – Please point out where I said that.

    What is the purpose of the quarantine statutes you moron? Think about it.

    Does the risk you pose to public health depend on whether you are employed by the government or are a civilian? Absolutely not. The science and conclusion should be absolutely the same.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  166. The science and conclusion should be absolutely the same.

    Says who? Been appointed to the Maine Supreme Court, have you? I say the other way around. The soldiers should bring the matter up with their union shop steward; file a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board for unfair labor practices; file for writ of habeas corpus for illegal detention; sue under OHSA for unsafe working conditions; sue under Section 1983 for violation of their civil rights arising from the conditions of their confinement; and furthermore demand a second opinion from their own doctors under Obama care. Since the science and conclusions are the same, and the same standards apply to them that apply to civilians in Maine state courts. If a=b then b=a, right?

    nk (dbc370)

  167. And now that I saw that they held her in that tent for three days, then I don’t think her lawyer was off the mark for threatening a federal civil rights suit. Section 1983 suits is the avenue prisoners use to challenge prison conditions. Among its other advantages, it provides for attorney’s fees, and they only have to prevail on one claim to get them.

    nk (dbc370)

  168. No crush, elissa. Dark-haired, sloe-eyed women are my weakness (Ah, Huma!), not rawboned redheads. BTW, it’s not true that redheads have no souls. Each freckle represents a soul they have consumed.

    nk (dbc370)

  169. Nk – this is not about the laws, it is about science. Explain to us why soldiers who have not been exposed should be quarantined, but healthcare workers who worked directly with Evola patients should not. Remember, this is all about the science. Does who employs them change the science? Their status as to how they went there has an effect on the science?

    JD (285732)

  170. “Maine has an open and shut case that based upon the best available scientific and medical advice the U.S. Government has chosen to quarantine its own employees who have not even been (if we believe that) to ebola for 21 day to minimize…”

    I don’t think we’ve heard much about the decision about soldiers being based on science. So this would likely be a hard case to make.

    “Commanders are under different standards for telling soldiers what to do, including going into quarantine; than civilian governments are under for telling private citizens what to do. Or should Kaci stand at attention and salute LePage, too?”

    Yeah it seems like people are missing this key fact here.

    butlerj (8df702)

  171. [If TL;DR, skip to end for short version.)

    The legal rule is that science is admissible only to the extent that it is helpful to the trier of fact to reach a decision on the ultimate issue. The ultimate issue, here, is whether Kaci should be deprived of her freedom.

    Science, or any other expert testimony, is not entitled to any more weight or credibility than any other admissible testimony. The trier of fact may consider it as little or as much as he wants. He may believe or disbelieve whichever parts he wants. It is not dispositive.

    It is much more helpful, for someone sincerely trying to discern the disparate treatment of soldiers and civilians, to look at the different natures, rights, duties, and obligations of, and laws governing, soldiers and civilians. Not “If it’s good enough for the Pentagon and soldiers, that’s the final word, it’s good enough for judges and civilians”.

    Short version: Just because the Pentagon is a bunch of dumbassses doesn’t mean state courts should be too.

    nk (dbc370)

  172. mg (31009b) — 10/30/2014 @ 3:46 am

    Hickox is an official CDC Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) officer who performed work for the CDC in recent months.

    Did you see that? Not just a “CDC Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) officer” but “an official CDC Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) officer”. Don’t mix her in with the unofficial officers.

    So she knows what she’s talking about? And her lawyer is no store-front ambulance chaser, and knows what he’s talking about?

    nk (dbc370)

  173. No crush, elissa. Dark-haired, sloe-eyed women are my weakness (Ah, Huma!), not rawboned redheads. BTW, it’s not true that redheads have no souls. Each freckle represents a soul they have consumed.

    nk (dbc370) — 10/30/2014 @ 3:05 am

    She’s a ginger and, goddamit, you will respect her.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  174. nk, as I said before, I agree that putting her in a tent (and taking her clothes? permanently?) was unnecessary and poor form
    but I don’t understand your reasoning beyond that.
    It seems to me that if the government has any legitimate role it is to protect the public safety,
    and as I said once before, I do not know what laws are state by state or what, but in PA it is well established you can put someone in a hospital bed under lock and key with active TB if they are not reliable in taking their medication, and I assume it could be done with other illnesses as necessary and appropriate.

    If the ultimate issue is whether or not she should be deprived of her freedom, it seems to me the issue is why, for what reason? It is not because she committed a crime. The only reason I can see is if she poses a threat to the public welfare.
    Science is behind that question as to what is the nature of the risk and how big a risk is it.
    Law I guess comes in at the judgment of how much risk is enough risk for the government to take action.
    I suppose one can say that the civilian and military calculations in allowing for how much risk may be different. The military is told where to be stationed anyway, so it seems easier to exercise an abundance of caution.

    But in calm and good faith reasoning, which is often lacking these days, it is obvious that a returning health care worker poses a real and significant risk. (MD in Philly (f9371b) — 10/29/2014 @ 7:21 pm) To not ask for an abundance of caution is to demand the public assume a degree of risk against their will.

    The cynic in me would say this is a win-win for lawyers. Lawyers get paid to get people out of quarantine; lawyers will get paid finding who to sue when a returning HCW comes down with Ebola, and lots of lawyers will get paid finding who to sue when there is a secondary case from a returning HCW.

    I am finding this a bit absurd. You have people thinking it is only a matter of time before there is some mass epidemic in the US, and other people acting as if there is no risk where there obviously is one.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  175. It’s a new day, butlerj, and I must regretfully inform you that I can no longer sanction your buffoonery.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  176. since this has become the argument clinic:

    narciso (ee1f88)

  177. Butttlerj – nobody is missing that point, it is irrelevant. Obama and his howler monkeys keep wrapping themselves in the magical cloak of science to justify their opposition to travel restrictions and quarantines. How does the science differ between these 2 groups. We all know you won’t answer, because you can’t.

    JD (f897a0)

  178. http://hotair.com/archives/2014/10/30/science-nobel-prize-winning-doctor-backs-christies-quarantine-plan/

    Because, science.

    Turns out that the doctor in CA that started quarantine yesterday gets it.

    JD (f897a0)

  179. ““I’m California’s most experienced Ebola physician. I won’t take a single chance,” said Dr. Bucks in a New York Times interview. “My wife is away, my dog is away — there’s no downside to a little personal convenience, 3 weeks will pass.”

    JD (f897a0)

  180. I sort of hope Kaci comes down with Ebola.

    Should I denounce myself?

    Patricia (5fc097)

  181. Anyone that has the courage to help ebola infected people, should have no issue with quarantine.

    mg (31009b)

  182. “The ultimate issue, here, is whether Kaci should be deprived of her freedom.”

    Yes, because she poses a threat to public health. The determination that she poses a threat to public health should be based on where she has been and what she has done, invoking the best available medical and scientific guidance. The process is no different for determining whether members of the military should be quarantined because they pose a potential risk to public health.

    “It is much more helpful, for someone sincerely trying to discern the disparate treatment of soldiers and civilians, to look at the different natures, rights, duties, and obligations of, and laws governing, soldiers and civilians.”

    The different rights, duties, and obligations of the military versus civilians have no place in determining whether an individual is a potential risk to public health. Believing such distinctions exist in reaching such determinations merely means one has swallowed the nonsensical pablum for pinheads being spewed by the Obama Administration.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  183. If the ultimate issue is whether or not she should be deprived of her freedom, it seems to me the issue is why, for what reason?

    Also “Why me?” The law has answered that. Maine’s is:

    Upon the department’s submission of an affidavit showing by clear and convincing evidence that the person or property which is the subject of the petition requires immediate custody in order to avoid a clear and immediate public health threat, a judge of the District Court or justice of the Superior Court may grant temporary custody of the subject of the petition to the department and may order specific emergency care, treatment or evaluation.

    The CDC’s seems to be “reasonable belief” under 42 USC 246. The Army does not need one — orders are not scrutinized under due process.

    Maine: Is the evidence clear and convincing that Kaci poses a clear and immediate public health danger? Confined.
    CDC: Is it reasonable to believe that Kaci is in a communicable stage of a disease, or in a precommunicable stage of a really scary disease which she will transmit to the general public? Confined.
    Pentagon: “That’s an order, soldier.” Confined.

    Anyway, she went on a bike ride today according to the internet. A judge will decide her fate soon.

    nk (dbc370)

  184. 42 usc 264

    nk (dbc370)

  185. In CA the fellow can leave his house to go jogging, as long as he does it alone and not where there are people.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  186. Nk – are you trying to miss the point?

    JD (c2c740)

  187. “The Army does not need one — orders are not scrutinized under due process.”

    nk – But they have provided one. For some reason the Obama Administration want people to believe that members of the military do not have families and communities they want to return to so that there is not equivalence to quarantining members of the military versus civilians, just because they can, which is a bunch of bull crap.

    If you want to advance an argument that our governments, state and federal, should have no right to protect members of the public against serious risks to the public health, please do so. So far all I have seen from you is a bunch of arm waving repeating the words thugs, Japanese internment, fat governors, and UCMJ, but no serious argument.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. “Nk – are you trying to miss the point?”

    JD – Consistently

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  189. I thought the redhead from the Ukraine would help, I guess not,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  190. I got the point, if the point is Obama talking out of both sides of his mouth. Good post, JD.

    nk (dbc370)

  191. Oh, this is Dana’s post. Yes, Dana, that redheaded harridan is a real b***h.

    nk (dbc370)

  192. President Obama met with some returnees from the ebola zone, soe of whom had been back less than 21 days.

    And it’s been less tahn 21 days since Amber Vincent had ebola.

    Nurses who treat Dr Craig Spencer in Bellevue are not being quarantined, and he has ebola now, not days ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  193. 163. Seriously? F***ing seriously? Soldiers obey the same laws as f***ing civilians?

    nk (dbc370) — 10/29/2014 @ 10:07 pm

    Seriously. F***ing seriously.

    The exact same laws that make it illegal for you to rob a 7-11 in downtown Chicago make it illegal for a soldier to rob that exact same 7-11.

    One good way (or bad way, depending on your POV) to get s***canned from the military is to get convicted of a crime in a civilian court and sent to a civilian prison.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  194. http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131030/NEWS06/310300018/Fort-Campbell-soldier-convicted-sex-abuse

    HOPKINSVILLE, KY. — A U.S. Army soldier based at Fort Campbell has been convicted of sexual abuse and sodomy with a child under 12-years-old

    …The child involved in the case, a 6-year-old girl, testified against Ruiz. The 10-woman, 2-man jury in Christian County Circuit Court, reviewed video of her testimony about the November 2012 crimes after deliberations started.

    US Army soldier + same laws as f***ing civilians = Seriously. F***ing seriously.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  195. You’ve convinced me, Steve. I’m getting together 200 guys, giving them machine guns and hand grenades, and ordering them to jump from an airplane hanging from a big umbrella, first thing in the morning.

    nk (dbc370)

  196. 160. Commanders are under different standards for telling soldiers what to do, including going into quarantine; than civilian governments are under for telling private citizens what to do. Or should Kaci stand at attention and salute LePage, too?

    nk (dbc370) — 10/29/2014 @ 9:50 pm

    Is there a point anywhere in this?

    Completely aside from the fact that governors do have the power to quarantine people President Silky Terrier has, all by his lonesome, made the issue of quarantining people all about dignity and respect.

    If we respect people and wish to treat them with dignity, we don’t just have a blanket rule saying we will willy nilly quarantine health care workers. Unless they used inadequate PPE, accidentally stabbed themselves with a needle through their glove, or otherwise have some extraordinary circumstance requiring special treatment, we must not quarantine them as a routine measure.

    Because … dignity and respect.

    On the other hand, we have just such a blanket rule for servicemembers who merely set foot in West Africa. There is no more scientific reason to do so then there is to have a blanket rule for civilian health care workers.

    So why do it? Because Obama can.

    Yes we can! Si se puede!

    And what can we do? We being Obama and Valerie Jarrett. We can treat servicemembers with the same blanket contempt that would horrify us if somebody treated some civilian of the order of the sacred lab coat the same way.

    For no other reason than one is in the military and one isn’t.

    And it isn’t as if a governor doesn’t have the authority to quarantine a returning civilian health care worker. It is just as much within the governor’s power to do so as it is within the CinC’s power to quarantine members of the military.

    It is just that, according to Tiger Beat’s own public statements, since the purpose of quarantining people isn’t to protect public health but to demonstrate how much the regime respects their dignity, Prom Queen has determined that one group of people needs to be sh@t upon at every opportunity even when they don’t have what they themselves would call a valid reason. They don’t need one to defecate on people in the military.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  197. Oh, sorry. 80% is old news. in New York it’s 82%.

    New Yorkers overwhelmingly support a 21-day quarantine for individuals who have come into contact with an Ebola patient, regardless of whether they are symptomatic, according to a Wall Street Journal/NBC 4 New York/Marist College poll.

    Eighty-two percent said they support such a quarantine, according to the poll, responding to a question that didn’t distinguish between people traveling from Ebola-stricken countries and individuals in New York—for example, hospital workers—who may have come into contact with the disease.

    The survey represents some of the freshest evidence that New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo was reflective of public sentiment on Ebola last week when he and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie announced mandatory quarantines for health-care workers and others traveling from African nations stricken by the disease.

    http://weaselzippers.us/204075-wsj-poll-82-of-new-yorkers-support-mandatory-21-day-ebola-quarantines/

    elissa (f5b3a0)

  198. You know what the progs call that, when you have 82% of the electorate agreeing?

    That’s a consensus.

    SCIENCE!

    She blinded me with it.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  199. so, 82% of the population is raycsss?

    😎

    Resident 3vil said this “nurse” came up in a meeting today, and the nurses in attendance, were, to put it mildly, disgusted by the whole thing.

    i’d quote what she said their comments were, but this poast would never see the light of day…

    and it’s not even a top line hospital, nor staffed with world class nurses, but they know BS when they see it.

    redc1c4 (589173)

  200. ==they know BS when they see it.==

    I think the ever speechifying president has been hoping for (and shooting for) a grand “the only thing we have to fear is—-fear itself” moment from his teleprompter and select WH photo ops. He needed this to mitigate the lack of preparedness, lack of coherent policy, and obvious incompetence of a U.S. government agency regarding ebola guidelines and restrictions. Instead, Nurse Kaci and her prickly multi-state protest sort of hogged the camera– and the doctor who bowls stepped all over his intended message on this one. And then the military made a big statement, too. A president with credibility and who had the trust of the American people could have managed this pr disaster, maybe. But not him. Not now.

    elissa (f06fcc)

  201. I’m not clear as to what the judge ruled:

    defied a quarantine for medical workers who’ve treated Ebola patients.

    Judge Charles C. LaVerdiere ruled Friday that Hickox should continue daily active monitoring and coordinate any travel with state officials. He noted that she is not showing symptoms and is therefore not infectious.

    Under the new order, she must agree to “direct active monitoring,” report any symptoms and coordinate her travel with health officials until a hearing takes place.

    LaVerdiere thanked Hickox, 33, for her service in Sierra Leone.

    “The court is fully aware of the misconceptions, misinformation, bad science and bad information being spread from shore to shore in our country with respect to Ebola,” he wrote. “The court is fully aware that people are acting out of fear and that this fear is not entirely rational.”

    Maine Gov. Paul LePage disagreed with the judge’s ruling, but said the “state will abide by the law.”

    “As governor, I have done everything I can to protect the health and safety of Mainers,” he said. “The judge has eased restrictions with this ruling and I believe it is unfortunate.”

    The latest legal salvo overrode a temporary order filed Thursday night that required Hickox to stay at least three feet away from others, avoid public places, not leave Fort Kent, agree to active monitoring and coordinate travels with health officials.

    Norman Siegel, Hickox’s civil-rights attorney hailed the judge’s ruling.

    “This sets a precedent that in America we won’t quarantine people unless they have symptoms,” he said Friday afternoon.

    He said that her monitoring calls for a state health worker to visit her daily.

    She has to co-ordinate her travel, but she can go anywhere?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  202. Maybe she can be drafted into the Army for the next ten days?

    nk (dbc370)

  203. She’d have to volunteer to join the army.

    Obama is now treating them like veterans but they are not in the army.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  204. http://www.grandhaventribune.com/article/1213236 (Campaigning in Maine, Obama avoids taking a position on the quarantine)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  205. In today NY Post there was a column that criticized Obama’s foreign policy. Part of it was that ebola has peaked in Liberia. I can’t find it online without the printed article in front of me.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  206. Nope. We still have a draft and medical personnel are at the top of the list. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/politics/19draft.html?_r=0

    nk (dbc370)

  207. Furthermore, the CDC is already one of the uniformed services. Remember C. Everett Koop and the Jocelyn Elders in their admirals’ uniforms?

    nk (dbc370)

  208. NHS

    nk (dbc370)

  209. “I’m not clear as to what the judge ruled”

    Sammy – You can actually find the ruling online even though it is not in the NY Times.

    The Chief of the Maine Centers of Disease Control and Prevention did not request a quarantine order, only a Direct Active Monitoring program in accordance with the new CDC protocols that were issued 10/27, but with restrictions on Kaci Drama Queen’s visits to public places and use of public transportation.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  210. Oh, she’s the property of the Department of Health and Human Services now, alright. She lost, or conceded, on the issue of public threat. Only the measures necessary are at issue. If she does not comply with the court’s order, as liberal as it is, then the next order will be that she be made to comply, confined in a facility.

    nk (dbc370)

  211. 216. Furthermore, the CDC is already one of the uniformed services. Remember C. Everett Koop and the Jocelyn Elders in their admirals’ uniforms?

    nk (dbc370) — 10/31/2014 @ 2:45 pm

    217. NHS

    nk (dbc370) — 10/31/2014 @ 2:46 pm

    You’re getting warmer.

    http://www.usphs.gov/

    There are seven uniformed services in the US. In addition to the five branches of the armed forces, NOAA and the USPHS each have a commissioned officer corps.

    Not everyone at CDC or NHS would be in it.

    Steve57 (ee8c38)

  212. *…Not everyone at CDC or NHS would be in it….

    Now you have me doing it, nk.

    Nobody at the NHS would be in the USPHS commissioned corps because the NHS is the UK’s National Health Service.

    *…Not everyone at CDC or NHS NIH would be in it….

    There. That’s better.

    Steve57 (ee8c38)

  213. May be nothing or may be something—

    An Oregon woman being monitored for possible Ebola infection has been hospitalized after registering a high temperature, state health officials said on Friday.

    The woman, who was being monitored after traveling to an Ebola-affected country, has been placed in isolation and is not a danger to the public, the Oregon Health Authority said.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-ebola-0141031-story.html#page=1

    elissa (a5ecea)

  214. Alphabet soup. http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/

    nk (dbc370)

  215. HHS may also have something called a service corps. But, like the peace corps, it’s not a commissioned corps and not one of the seven uniformed services.

    http://dcp.psc.gov/phscc/benefits.html

    The Commissioned Corps of the Public Health Service as one of the Seven Uniformed Services

    Just to really complicate matters, the USPHS belongs to HHS. So the people walking around the place in sailor suits belong to HHS, but they’re not in the HHS service corps.

    Steve57 (c1c90e)

  216. Steve: The nyt reported that a Navy Lieutenant was in charge of one of the four Ebola testing laboratories we are setting up in Liberia. Do you think this officer might have been in the USPHS and not the Navy? That would make a lot of sense if you assume the nyt reporter was mentally undernourished.

    bobathome (5ccbd8)

  217. No, the Navy has (like the Army and Air Force) it’s own Medical and Medical Service officers. The difference between them is Medical Corps officers are actually doctors and nurses. While Medical Service Corps officers have some scientific or professional qualification related to health care but aren’t doctors or nurses. Like a degree in health care administration. Or a masters degree in physiology, working in the Navy’s aerospace or diving programs. And the Navy provides medical support personnel to the Marines.

    The USCG isn’t part of DoD normally and doesn’t have much in its own way of medical personnel. I was curious and checked. For example, there are 13 field billets in the USCG for pharmacist officers. That’s not much. So unlike the other armed services the USCG does rely on USPHS corps officers, though.

    http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg1/cg11/cg_liaison.asp

    CG PHS Liaison

    Carlos Danger57 (c1c90e)

  218. I guess I should add it would be easier to send a Navy officer out to W. Africa to do Ebola testing because they’d be at the end of the same DoD supply chain supporting all the other DoD personnel.

    There are other reasons as well. Basically, there’s a big DoD wheel that the USPHS wouldn’t have to reinvent.

    Carlos Danger57 (c1c90e)

  219. Sorry. I forgot to change back from my Nom de Twitter.

    Steve57 (c1c90e)


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