Patterico's Pontifications

10/27/2014

Christie Flip-Flops on Quarantine for Ebola-Exposed Nurse

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:29 am



Flip:

A nurse returning from West Africa is the first American forced into involuntary quarantine under a new policy imposed by New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie.

She’s furious about it and has even hired a lawyer to challenge the quarantine order, but Christie says he “absolutely has no second thoughts about it.”

“It was my conclusion we need to do this to protect the public health of people of New Jersey,” Christie told “Fox News Sunday.”

“I don’t believe when you’re dealing with something as serious as this that we can count on a voluntary system. This is government’s job. If anything else, the government job is to protect safety and health of our citizens. And so, we’ve taken this action, and I absolutely have no second thoughts about it.”

Flop:

No second thoughts? Third thoughts, then?

P.S. E.R. Nurse: Duncan Lied About Exposure to Ebola.

91 Responses to “Christie Flip-Flops on Quarantine for Ebola-Exposed Nurse”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Conditions weren’t good in the quarantine, could be improved. Quarantine protocols should be handled by the Feds, but they refuse to do it. Right move by the Governors given the danger of an outbreak and medical personnel should understand that this is a general public safety issue. Of course, I’d say it should be a quarantine for 30 days, but could be handled more like a house arrest situation w/ monitoring.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  3. Yeah weasally maybe –but she’s not being released in New Jersey NY metro area though!

    “The New Jersey Department of Health issued a statement this morning that Hickox has been “symptom free for the last 24 hours,” and that it decided to discharge her after consulting with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.After consulting with her, she has requested transport to Maine, and that transport will be arranged via a private carrier not via mass transit or commercial aircraft,” the department said.

    Senior officials in the Christie administration said she will be driven in a car and escorted by officials from the state and Doctors Without Borders, the agency the Hickox worked for in West Africa.

    “Health officials in Maine have been notified of her arrangements and will make a determination under their own laws on her treatment when she arrives,” the New Jersey statement said.

    According to ABC News she will be quarantined at home in Maine.

    elissa (984932)

  4. His lawyers probably told him he would lose on a state habeas corpus petition. I like this. I think people should be quarantined, but not at the absolute discretion of some government functionary. New Jersey is enough of a thug state as it is.

    nk (dbc370)

  5. Quarantine protocols should be handled by the Feds, but they refuse to do it.

    1. Federal statute gives the authority to the states and pre-empt intervention by the CDC. The CDC does not have the authority to “handle” it — only to make recommendations.
    2. The “C”s in CDC do not stand for Central Committee. The local governments are in a better position to judge the needs and vulnerabilities of their communities.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. So…, she’s going to be in some monitored isolation?

    I am not at all a fan of frivolous lawsuits,
    but if she gets sick and gives it to someone else,
    or even causes a significant outlaw of cash and resources to evaluate,

    I would not only sue her as fast as I could, but I would also sue the lawyer representing her to get out of quarantine.
    we certainly know of lawyers who get sued for much less cause.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  7. Throwing her out of the state under escort and making her Maine’s problem. Yup, that’s a pragmatic governor. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  8. #5. I would think the Feds should handle it as a function of the State Department. If you’re going to institute a quarantine for people coming from foreign soil, you should have controls in place at the portals of entry in the United States. When already on US soil, yeah, it makes sense to fall to the states. I was more referring to the lack of control from the Feds on travel from the Hotzones.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  9. Greetings:

    And meanwhile and not far away, Typhoid Mary lies a-spinning in her grave.

    11B40 (844d04)

  10. I’m glad they reversed the mandatory quarantine policy because she’s not contagious until she develops symptoms. Christie’s statement that he’ll do whatever to protect the citizens of his state suggests that everyone should be imprisoned so no harm will come to any of them, and I hope this willingness to imprison innocent people for the greater good is played up for all it’s worth during his presidential run.

    Chris (0ba377)

  11. She’ll probably get a $20,000 bill from the hospital for her 4 days in isolation.

    Chris (0ba377)

  12. I was more referring to the lack of control from the Feds on travel from the Hotzones.

    I agree with you on this. You know? They ask you if you’ve been to a farm if you’re coming back from overseas. Maybe they do have some cooperation arrangement where Borders and Customs alerts the locals?

    nk (dbc370)

  13. == she’s not contagious until she develops symptoms.==

    Chris, just out of curiosity what is your master plan for dealing with the returning medical workers from West Africa while we wait for them to “develop symptoms”?

    elissa (984932)

  14. The nurse was threatening to sue New Jersey.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/us-health-ebola-usa-nurse-idUSKBN0IF0VT20141027

    Norman Siegel, a civil rights lawyer, said Kaci Hickox’s isolation upon her return from West Africa raised “serious constitutional and civil liberties issues,” given that she shows no Ebola symptoms and has not tested positive for the disease.

    New Jersey would have lost.

    There is such a thing as the writ of habeus corpus.

    It certainly was not a consensus of medical opinion that this had to be done. Governor Christie could not go against the CDC, or Doctors without bordrsd, and 90%, if not 95% of all medical opinion. The courts would not uphold that.

    Even Governor Cuomo allowed people to be quarantines in their apaartment. New Jersey was not allowing people to leave the state.

    So now she was allowed to be transported to Maine, nd Maine will make its own decisions..

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  15. I hope this willingness to imprison innocent people for the greater good is played up for all it’s worth during his presidential run.

    He’ll lose the Ron Paul/hard-core libertarian voters. All three of them.

    nk (dbc370)

  16. #13 elissa, how about don’t go within 3-feet of anyone for the next 21 days? Home self-monitoring, and limited outings for the duration of the watch period.

    Chris (0ba377)

  17. #15 nk, fair enough. Playing up the “Shipping her out-of-state to be someone else’s problem” would work just as well.

    Chris (0ba377)

  18. Trust for 21 days, and limited outings that do not get the person within 3 feet of anyone worked so well with Dr. Spencer’s “isolation” in NYC, right, Chris? I can definitely see why you’d want that as a template for future returning healthcare workers from ebola hotspots.

    elissa (984932)

  19. There’s another possible ebola case in New York City: a 5-year-old boy from Guinea. The report says his ebola test results should be back early this afternoon.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  20. I consider Governor Christie something of an idiot for having done this in the first place. Idiot more than ignoramus, because he should have gotten enough information to decide what is what.

    Christie said he talked to Cuomo, and Cuomo showed he got it. [!!]

    What Cuomo showed is that he is also an ignoramus, but not as big an idiot as Christie, or perhaps he’s running scared in the election, although there is no reason for him to. But maybe he knows he doesn’t deserve to be Governor, so instinctively he is running scared.

    Cuomo is more in touch with facts, although he was late getting the word that Dr. Craig spencer’s temperature when he took it Thirsday morning was not 103 degrees, but 100.3 degrees, which was actually below the revised threshhold.)

    In New York, in the first place, people were not confined to the hospital. With the doctor’s live-in fiance (what is this business of getting married only next September?) they cleaned the apartment, threw out the food, and posted someone by the door, and nobody who delivers anything will hand anything to her. Much too much, but more reasonable. Christie wasn’t allowing her to leave quarantine for one second. To leave New Jersey.

    He drank the Kool-Aid, because this stupidity is Kool-Aid.

    This morning I heard Cuomo had backed down a bit. Evidentaly the argument being made to him, wa sif you do this, nobody will volunteer. So he agreed that the state would pay the salaries of anybody quarantined (maybe only the people who had been in Africa?) if their organization did not. (Doctors without Borders does continue eople on salary. They get about a quarter of what they would make in the United States or something like that. DWB also advised people not to return to work for 21 days – (but go sightseeing instead? I guess the idea is not to raise the anxiety among co-workers.)

    Christie showed his incompetence in more than one way. The other day when asked where she was, he said maybe she was at S’barro’s in the airport. That was not true at all. This shows he did not know at all what is going on, and what his kind of quarantine would mean..

    They say that governors should run for President because they have executive experience. That works both ways. It can show you also if someone is not a good executive, and Christie isn’t. We saw that also with the Port Authority bridge lane clsoings. (not so much because it hapepned but because he did not get down to the bottom of it, and tended to beleive what people told him)

    Christie does not have too good an ability to distinguish truth from falsehood. It shows up time and again. Sometimes when it comes to things like global warming. Sometimes when it comes to ebola.

    Note: He’s against cap and trade and other proposals, because they don’t make sense as a remedy, not because he doesn’t believe the alarmists. He’s against it since it would insiginifantly reduce CO2 in the atmosphere. At least he gets that.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  21. Like I said up above, different communities have different needs and vulnerabilities. What would not work in Manhattan might work in Maine. They still live in log cabins out in the woods, there, don’t they?

    nk (dbc370)

  22. Hey, DRJ.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. “Christie’s statement that he’ll do whatever to protect the citizens of his state suggests that everyone should be imprisoned so no harm will come to any of them,…”

    It suggests nothing of the sort.

    “Home self-monitoring, and limited outings for the duration of the watch period.”

    Which apparently includes going bowling, out to restaurants, riding public transportation, etc.

    JD (102e76)

  24. 16. Chris (0ba377) — 10/27/2014 @ 9:27 am

    don’t go within 3-feet of anyone for the next 21 days? Home self-monitoring, and limited outings for the duration of the watch period.

    The 21-day period is too long to begin with, and there’s no special reason to cut it off at 21 days if you are doing that.

    We have ebola virsus tests. All you have to do is believe in them, not wait for the FDA. I mean if a state is going to act independently of the federal government, it can act independently that way, too!

    And pay for the tests, too. You can probably also quickly determine what is the maximum length poof time someone could test negative and still develop a case of ebola. This kind of thing ought to be known after 38 years of off and on experience and research with ebola (and some things can be extrapolated from other virususes and from monkeys)

    The 3-feet business is for someone known to have a case of ebola.

    Obviously, doctors and nurses got infected in Africa in some unknown way, but it doesn’t make it super-contangious from asymptomatic people, or people just developing synmptoms. One possibility is contaminated material in or near an ebola clinic. People have been surprised when they carefully studied MRSA transmission.

    If this had continued, or even continues as modified, DWB will probably advis people to go take a tour in Europe before coming to the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  25. http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/221905-er-nurse-duncan-lied-about-exposure-to-ebola

    Rose said Duncan then told her that his family had suffered a loss in Liberia. Duncan added that his daughter, who had died in childbirth, did not have Ebola, however.

    Rose said Duncan later denied that story, about his travels and the death of his pregnant daughter, to Texas state health officials.

    So, at one point, to a nurse, not a doctor, he claimed that the person who had died was his daughter, which she was not.

    Embarrassment can cause people to lie. Furthermore, he probably didn’t want the nurse to be afraid of him. Duncan seems to have soon after denied that he told that story to the nurse, so the lie was for nurses, whom he felt apparently did not deserve the truth, being only nurses, and not diagnosticians who could help him.

    Also, he may not have believed it was ebola that this woman died of, and certainly did not know that for a fact, and he almost certainly did not think it was ebola at the time when he was near her, or he never would have exposed himself to her. She was the just about first case in the neighborhood.

    Sometimes the first major symptom of ebola in a pregnant woman is a miscarriage, and that miscarriage may give ebola to people around her. This seems to have happened in enough cases it ought to be prominently mentioned on any ebola web page. Of course this is only a worry where ebola is on the loose. Duncan claimed to his family that if he would have known he had ebola he never would have left Liberia.

    And also of course he may have been sort of afraid of prosecution, which woukld cause him to maintain he had not bene in contact with anyone with ebola until he was really sure he had ebola.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  26. As Obola has figured out, our military is not concerned with habeus corpus. Soldiers returning from Liberia are being quarantined in Italy for 21 days. No exceptions, no waivers, no doubt. Club Gitmo might be repurposed?

    And the NJ quarantine was being carried out in a tent. I think FEMA still has several thousand mobile homes that were never used following Katrina. Air them out, pressure wash the mildew, and they’d probably be better than a tent.

    bobathome (5ccbd8)

  27. Brilliant Sammy, just brilliant.

    bobathome (5ccbd8)

  28. Christie really had no choice in backing down, except that he didn’t wait for a court to decide.

    The front page headline of today’s New York Daily News goes: (white letters on a blurred background)

    PRISONER
    ZERO

    [next six lines underlined with white line]

    Nurse who
    tested NEGATIVE [negative in red capital letters]
    for EBOLA vows to [EBOLA also in red capital letters]
    sue Gov. Christie
    for being held
    in plastic tent

    Picture of Gov Christie to left, and the nurse to right. Small black letters in between:

    Hero nurse Kaci Hickox is being held
    prisoner in a plastic isolation tent by N.J.
    Gov. Chris Christie for the “crime” of treat-
    ing Ebola victims in West Africa. Hickox,
    who returned Friday and was immediately
    dragged into quarantine, tested negative
    fot the virus and has no symptoms. She
    is planning to sue for her freedom.

    I don’t know what test they used, but one test is supposed to have a 1 in several thousand false negative rate.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  29. #18 Elissa, was Dr. Spencer counseled on these self-monitoring recommendations? If he was, and still violated public trust by doing what he did, then fine. But until he’s advised of the state’s recommendations, he’s not particularly at fault for anything, or did somebody catch it from him at the bowling alley and I just haven’t heard about it yet?

    Chris (0ba377)

  30. 10. I’m glad they reversed the mandatory quarantine policy because she’s not contagious until she develops symptoms…

    Chris (0ba377) — 10/27/2014 @ 9:13 am

    This isn’t true. It’s one reason why medical professionals have ridiculed the CDC. The CDC pronounces things to be true as if they’re established fact, when they are not. It’s similar to their earlier pronouncements that someone had to have a fever of 101.5 dg or greater to be contagious.

    They simply don’t know these things to be true. As if there’s a precise moment when someone infected with the Ebola virus becomes contagious, and they at the CDC knows when that moment occurs.

    Ain’t true. No one knows enough about the disease to make those claims.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  31. Chris, you can’t be serious. Do you actually think a doctor like Spencer who has just returned from treating Ebola patients in West Africa is some babe in the woods, who can’t be held accountable unless and until he’s advised of state self-monitoring recommendations?

    Steve57 (e92787)

  32. #23, JD How does imprisoning someone who’s not contagious helping the general public? And in regards to Dr Spencer I’ll ask again, was he advised of the self-monitoring expectations when he arrived at his home? His behavior here is probably pretty consistent with the results of exposure to non-contagious people in general. Yes, it would make me a little edgy knowing he sat at a table the day before I eat at the same location, but what are the facts of transmission of this virus? What is the risk he deposited virus particles at that location in his condition at the time, what is the duration those virus particles survive exposed to air, etc. Are you going to let facts or fear determine what should be done?

    Chris (0ba377)

  33. #31 Steve, well he probably knows more about the virus’s transmissability than the state. How many people did his poorly-chosen actions infect?

    Chris (0ba377)

  34. Of all the people held aside for monitoring after potential exposure to the virus, how many have actually come down with the disease? Not even his family members caught it while living in tight quarters for 4-5 days after symptoms began. It’s pretty safe to say at this point that home self monitoring/ reporting and limited outings during the incubation period is more than sufficient to protect the general public.

    Chris (0ba377)

  35. #31 Steve, well he probably knows more about the virus’s transmissability than the state…

    Chris (0ba377) — 10/27/2014 @ 10:52 am

    Familiarity breeds contempt. That’s why he has the disease.

    It’s absurd to trust a guy who thought he knew enough about Ebola not to catch it in the first place to now assure me, now that he has it, that he knows enough about Ebola not to give it to anyone else.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  36. OK Steve. Did he give it to anyone else?

    Chris (0ba377)

  37. Chris – What’s Kaci doing next, going to Disney World because she doesn’t have symptoms, you know, because it’s unfair to quarantine people who have been directly exposed to ebola? If she develops symptoms while she’s there what happens?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  38. “OK Steve. Did he give it to anyone else?”

    Chris – Wrong question.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. How helpful is a care worker who doesn’t think she’s subject to quarantine protocols?

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  40. Daley, didn’t I say home self monitoring with limited outings during the incubation period?

    Chris (0ba377)

  41. all it took was one tearful phone call from Chrisie-poo’s crush to get him to fold…

    and people want his dumb a55 to run for President.

    redc1c4 (269d8e)

  42. It is always amusing to watch Chris run around with the goalposts, and try to create a Nareative.

    JD (102e76)

  43. Because one doctor failed to self monitor, but doesn’t appear to have infected anyone else, at this time, that is enough for the likes of Chris to claim that self monitoring is effective.

    JD (102e76)

  44. Steve’s remark about our inadequate understanding of ebola is certainly true. And our concern over the politicization of the science (meaning mainly statistics at this point) is well placed. One thing to watch in the near term are the WHO reports of confirmed deaths in Liberia. Looking at the previous months, it is apparent that Liberia was capable of processing a fairly limited number of blood samples per day. They basically confirmed between 15 and 20 ebola cases a day, but it isn’t stated how many tests result in confirming that a case was not ebola. So we don’t know the capacity of the system in terms of numbers of tests per day.

    Since the beginning of October they appear to have focused their resources on confirming deaths, not ongoing cases. And this suggests the capacity is closer to 20 tests a day, perhaps double the number if those dealing with fatalities are not very good at diagnosing the cause of death based on symptoms. With the arrival of the four military testing laboratories, the ability to perform these tests will increase by perhaps an order of magnitude. This would be expected to increase the number of confirmed cases, and deaths, over the next two weeks, while decreasing the number of “probable” and “suspected” cases and deaths. From a political standpoint, the increase of confirmed cases and deaths would be regarded as a negative given the Obola administration’s open borders policies, so look for this data to be hidden. Meanwhile, the decrease in probable and suspected case will be regarded as positive for the adiministration, so look for these numbers to dominate the discussion, despite the relative uselessness of the data.

    bobathome (5ccbd8)

  45. JD, self-monitoring has proven exactly as effective as the protocols Dr. Spencer put his faith in. These measures work. Until they prove insufficient.

    Just like the “enhanced” airport monitoring protocols will stop people infected with Ebola from entering the country. People like, err, Dr. Spencer.

    Whoops!

    Steve57 (bb7262)

  46. She’s a lefty looking for her 15 minutes of fame. Can’t be in the spotlight if you’re in quarantine. Typical Dem.

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  47. This Nation, sadly, deserves what it is getting.

    We have forgotten what it takes.

    Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a)

  48. Oh, I’m willing to cut her a lot of slack, Haiku. I wouldn’t want to be a prisoner in New Jersey, either. The hardest part of having Ebola in New Jersey is that are a dozen other things in the air, there, that make you choke and throw up. Two of them from Christie digesting his lunch, and three emanating from Snooki Polizzi.

    nk (dbc370)

  49. Cuomo and Christie: Twin Pillars of Salt on the Hudson.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  50. New Jersey is the garden state. You get past the urban decay of Camden, Atlantic City, Newark and parts of Joisy City and it is absolutely beautiful country. Leave New Jersey alone!!!

    elissa (984932)

  51. Agreed, elissa. NJ’s a very beautiful state, once past the eyesores.

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  52. These days it’s hard to know what’s what.

    Do returning medical workers need to be kept in some kind of stark holding cell for 21 days? No, and if that was what she was stuck in I can understand her complaining.
    But in the long run it will be best if everyone who returns is in some sort of monitored isolation for 21 days from their last potential Ebola exposure. I don’t think it needs to be solitary in a single room, but it needs to be limited from the public, so if the person does go from asymptomatic to symptomatic, the number of people who need to be then monitored are limited and known. I heard someone suggest electronic monitoring like someone on parole. Realistically, such people need to realize their colleagues have demonstrated that self-quarantine cannot be trusted.

    FWIW, I think it would be a reasonable thing for our government to ease the financial burden for those volunteering to go help. Yes, our government can’t do everything, but if US citizens with expertise are willing to voluntarily go over there and minimize the need for the US to send troops over, then 21 days of “unemployment pay” would be nice, or paying room and board for the period of isolation someplace.
    But it would be a lot easier if Gates or Buffet or someone said they would pick up the tab.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  53. Chris (0ba377) — 10/27/2014 @ 10:50 am

    And in regards to Dr Spencer I’ll ask again, was he advised of the self-monitoring expectations when he arrived at his home?

    He was probably told to check his temperature twice a day and be concerned when it goes above a certain level. (or he develops other symptoms)

    There seem to be widely varying unsourced statements as to how long the virus survives outside the body.

    The CDC seemed to say a few weeks ago, a matter of hours on a dry, and several days in water at room temeprature, but there is also the claim of three weeks on a cold surface. This is not what DWB and others seem to be going with and I don’t know where that 3 weeks came from. It might also depend on other factors, like temperature. I feel they have got to know something after so many years of studying ebola.

    I don’t know where they get 70 days in semen.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  54. Long live Nucky Thompson!

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  55. Hey, Haiku. What’s the dreariest part of living in New York?

    nk (dbc370)

  56. If a quaranetine was really necessary, you could set up a retreat, maybe use a bungalow colony, someplace and have people stay there for a few days, isolated from each other. they could wriote up their experiences, which would both keep them busy, and in case someopne comes down with ebola, figure out why. But that would be if it was necessary.

    Out in the street, the thing that that defeats is contact tracing, but contact tracing really may not be needed. Duncan didn’t infect anyone even though he came back to the hospiatl only later – and the two nurses he infected did not come on duty till some time later than that.

    Nurse Pham, the first one infected, was first on duty in the shift that included 4:40 Pm Monday, September 29, when Duncan was moved to a 24-bed intensive care unit after other patients were moved out. This was almost a day after explosive diarrhea and projectile vomiting was noted (9:40 pm Sunday) but before confirmation he had ebola came in. the nurses at that stage were wearing two gowns, shoe covers, surgical masks, gloves and faace shield, but not hazmat suits. Nurse Vinson first worked after the hazmat suits started – or was that during her shift? – the shift that included 8:15 PM but they didn’t wear respirator maks till 2:30 am Wednesday. At 8:45 am Wednesday they added triple show covers, triple gloves and aprons.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  57. Lord Preserve Me ! I am about to respond to a mini-Sammylanche …

    With the recent Ebola outbreak and comparatively recent advances in bio-science, many due to HIV and HepC research, we now have tools which allow us to find portions of disease-specific proteins in DNA and RNA … we cannot, however, necessarily tell if the proteins found are part of replication-competent virus or just portions of viral protein that cannot replicate … and, with HIV and HepC (and now Ebola), it is prudent to err on the side of caution …

    As I understand it, they have been able to consistently find some of these protein ‘markers’ in semen (and genital secretions) on the order of 30-70 days after infection (going from memory) … and the presenter frankly admitted that they do not know if the proteins found are from replication-competent Ebola virus or not … and this period is significantly *after* they can no longer find Ebola in the blood …

    (any errors in this are mine and my memory’s, not the presenters – I believe the gist of it to be accurate)

    Alastor (e7cb73)

  58. “Daley, didn’t I say home self monitoring with limited outings during the incubation period?”

    Chris – Didn’t I resist laughing out loud?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  59. Incidentally, when they set out to trace Dr. Spencer’s contacts for Wednesday and Tuesday (they idn’t go back further) they didn’t find the person whom I would consider to be the most in danger, but the New York Post did:

    http://nypost.com/2014/10/23/nyc-doctor-tests-positive-for-deadly-ebola-virus/

    On Wednesday his future wife took his laundry to the dry cleaner. So the person most in danger is the 60-year old man who washed those clothes.

    But he was among his wife’s fiance’s contacts, not his, so the authrorities never contacted him at least not before the New York Post did.

    Now the last of these clothes would be what he took off Tuesday night, or possibly Wednesday morning, and he didn’t begin vomiting till Thursday morning, and his temperature then was only 100.3, not 103 like it was first said, and the process of cleaning would probably kill the virus, and the washer’s hands probably wouldn’t gte into his mouth after contact with the clothes without getting detergent on it, so he is probably OK for several reasons, although the New York Post left his question hanging about whether he would be OK. But they missed him.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  60. Alastor (e7cb73) — 10/27/2014 @ 1:07 pm

    … and this period is significantly *after* they can no longer find Ebola in the blood …

    That’s because the blood is fairly rapidly cleared of “garbage” by the liver and kidneys but seminal fluid is not?

    Then what about the lymph nodes? The appendix?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  61. Maybe recovered ebola patients then should not have elective surgery? Or should that just BE assumed to be inactive, because if that was active virus, it would replicate?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  62. Here’s relevant news and something several of us have wondered about. Soldiers returning directly from service in Liberia are being put in 21 day isolation. This apparently includes the grunts plus a major general.

    A Pentagon spokesman calls it “enhanced monitoring.” The soldiers are confined to a building and unable to see their families, Martin reports. The decision made by the Army and applies only to soldiers returning from Liberia. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel will decide whether to make isolation apply to members of all services returning from Liberia.

    Martin reports that the soldiers in isolation are in a building that is used as a command headquarters. It has communications – secure communications – so that Gen. Williams and his staff can do work. It also has a gym.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ebola-outbreak-u-s-soldiers-returning-from-liberia-placed-in-isolation-in-italy/

    elissa (984932)

  63. And on a more characteristic note …

    “they get 70 days in semen”

    For those who no longer remember it (or never knew it), the origin of “quarantine” was the 40 days that ships from plague/disease areas were required to wait in harbour without discharging *anyone* – based on the knowledge that known plagues at that time would have run their course by the end of the 40 days, and anyone who survived would/could not spread a plague … (yeah, yeah, Typhoid Mary was an exception, fortunately a comparatively rare one) …

    So – even seamen only got 40 days …

    In current reality, the safest path is probably to require that the individual self-isolates with monitoring and logistical support … that being 21 days in a fixed place (bedroom/bathroom/study or entertainment or work room – probably at home) with logistical support such that stuff only arrives – nothing leaves until the 21 days is up …

    With current technology, while not necessarily being preferred, such a 21-day quarantine should be able to be comparatively painless – with the biggest challenge being the difficulty in holding down one’s full-time job while in such a quarantine … your average bus or taxi driver or nurse or store clerk can’t usually have a ‘remote’ day and work completely from home …

    Given the need to avoid an “Ebola Elsie” (reminiscent of Typhoid Mary), it would be prudent to have some civil defence plans in place, ready to deal with such a situation … if we are lucky and sufficiently careful, we will not have to activate such plans …

    Comments ? Thoughts ?

    Alastor (e7cb73)

  64. >> the returning medical workers

    We don’t have a statistic for what percentage of them develop ebola.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  65. Christie should be housed in an isolation unit for 21 days with enough Krispy Kreme donuts to feed an Army division.

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  66. 65. It figures because of her extreme rhetoric she was far left.

    Her confinement, also, however, was uncalled for.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  67. @Typhoid Mary. She was not always confined.

    She also was a non-sick carrier. We don;’t really have that with ebola.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  68. Hey, Haiku. What’s the dreariest part of living in New York?

    nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2014 @ 1:01 pm

    Thankfully, nk, I wouldn’t know. Nice place to visit, though.

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  69. The light at the end of the tunnel is New Jersey.

    Sorry, elissa.

    nk (dbc370)

  70. First time we (wife and I) were there was in ’88, a long flight from NorCal with 3 (count ’em) stops. She we got to the Marriott Marquis the fellow at the hotel took our luggage out of the cab put it on a cart and looked at me. I thanked him. He kept looking at me. I looked at him. He said, “I won’t be seeing you again, sir.” I responded “Promise?”…

    My wife gave me an elbow and I reluctantly reached for my wallet.

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  71. So we got to…

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  72. Next time we went for a biz conference where I had to present a research paper in Rye Brook Westchester County, we flew into JFK (I think) got a rental car for the drive (about 9 or 10PM) and soon drove past 3 or 4 burning pieces of old furniture on a road near the airport… Exciting!

    Colonel Haiku (c0421f)

  73. A 21-day quarantine isn’t like a 21-day jail sentence. It’s not punishment. It need not be uncomfortable, and indeed could be quite commodious. It certainly should be less of a hardship than those quarantined have already undergone while they were in Africa! And indeed, for returning health workers, quarantine could and should be something of a well-earned vacation. Yes, isolation for three whole weeks (gasp) is a personal hardship; but on the relative scale of hardships, isolation for 21 days is a trivial hardship — and those who complain about it in this context are whiners. (That’s true regardless of how unselfish they may have been, even very recently, in other contexts.)

    Submission to quarantine is an absolutely legitimate further sacrifice for society to demand, and insist upon through legal compulsion, of those who are within the quarantine’s specifications.

    Moreover, it is in the nature of such specifications that they must draw wide boundaries. They must err on the side of caution. Especially when the risks are so catastrophic, even comparatively tiny risks must still be identified and avoided.

    If there is one glaring lesson already apparent from this outbreak, it’s that we’re a long way away from knowing how to avoid all of the additional problems that keep emerging on a day-by-day basis. We should recognize that when it comes to this disease and how to contain it, we still have tons of both “known unknowns” and “unknown unknowns.” Skepticism doesn’t always lead to panic; hopefully it leads to education and improved future performance.

    The threatened “federal civil rights lawsuit” would have been so bogus as to be immediately sanctionable in my professional opinion. The general constitutionality of both the state and federal power to make and enforce quarantines is not remotely in doubt, and haven’t been for centuries. There are no open legal issues here, not even any close ones. The litigation threat is complete bull.

    I’m running out of patience in trying to listen respectfully to the people on the left who are in a “panic over how panicked we all are.” Arguing about whether the cool kids should get an voluntary personal opt-out privilege from quarantine is something upon which I’m disinclined to waste further time. It’s an idea only an idiot could even speak aloud.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  74. 75. …Skepticism doesn’t always lead to panic; hopefully it leads to education and improved future performance…

    What leads to skepticism, perhaps down the road panic, and in my case irritation and disgust, is the government’s attitude that the public would panic if they told the truth. So rather than being “safe than sorry,” their preferred mode of operation is that they’d rather be sorry than safe. Which they have been repeatedly, as their claims that they know how to stop Ebola in its tracks keep being proven false.

    And then as they are proven false time and again, they insist it’s a sign of panic to doubt them the next time around. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    …It’s an idea only an idiot could even speak aloud.

    Beldar (fa637a) — 10/27/2014 @ 2:55 pm

    Unlike common sense and ZMapp, as we are seeing from the administration’s level of emergency preparation and its subsequent ability to adapt and respond, idiots are not in short supply.

    Steve57 (e92787)

  75. A-freakin-men, Beldar.

    JD (102e76)

  76. Beldar (fa637a) — 10/27/2014 @ 2:55 pm

    I personally hope she pursues this, and finds some ambulance chaser to file fore her, and the court comes down with both feet (wearing track shoes) on both her and her lawyer.
    Even better would her becoming symptomatic and infecting her lawyer. Of course, then they’d sue Christie for letting her out of quarantine.
    Just another defenseless little flower trampled on by the GOP #WarOnWomen.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  77. The jersey pumpkin should do one thing- give Scott Walker some money from the R.G.A.
    This puke is helping the democrats by not giving Walker some cash for T.V. ads. Trying to kill off his presidential opponents, I guess.

    mg (31009b)

  78. Turns out that before they scrubbed the li’l special snowflake’s LinkedIn, peeps were able to determine that she’s a leftwing, Obama-supporting muffin with close ties to the CDC.

    Expect teh expected.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  79. Interesting article at The Atlantic-

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/21-days/381901/?single_page=true

    Short version, Dr. Steven Hatfill has some experience with Ebola, and is in the “Quarantine” camp.

    Sad to say, this nation’s “leaders” have turned their backs on one of their principal functions – to protect the nation’s citizens. They’ve perverted what should have been their “duty to the nation”, deciding to treat their jobs as a political game/ popularity contest.

    If they’re going to be so cavalier with the health and welfare of me and mine, and all of us, . . . well, let’s just say if some great evil befell the lot of them, I wouldn’t shed a tear.

    A_Nonny_Mouse (2f93f7)

  80. Wow. That’s an intriguing article, thank you for the link.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  81. What Beldar said. Thanks, A_Nonny_Mouse.

    Maybe Austin should consider getting rid of its bats.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  82. Some of the complaints in this and other threads about this “nurse”, who also happens to be an epidemiologist, being “released”, remind me of the hookers in LA County Jail complaining that Paris Hilton was receiving special treatment that they were not. What were the political connections of the Dallas dimwit who went on a cruise?

    Yes, any attorney who thought that a federal civil rights suit would be the right way to go would not only be barking up the tree — he would be baying at the moon. State habeas corpus, on the other head, is designed to have a prisoner, public or private, brought before a judge and have the causes of his captivity examined under due process*. The “nurse” very likely would have had an array of experts lined up to say she was not contagious, and there would be no basis for the judge to find just cause to hold her. The conditions of her quarantine would not have helped the state’s case. Of course, it is New Jersey, so there is no reason to believe that the judge would follow the law, but you block the lanes to that bridge when you get to it.

    nk (dbc370)

  83. barking up the *wrong* tree

    nk (dbc370)

  84. FWIW, I thought that was a good article as well.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  85. Hey, it’s Jonas Salk’s 100th birthday. He’s the guy who scared the pants off of the CDC and the March of Dimes by ending polio epidemics, making them (the CDC and the MofD) run around feverishly looking for new epidemics.

    nk (dbc370)

  86. Hey, nk: a Jonas Salk story for you. When I was taking epidemiology a long time ago, my professor told about having held a party in the late 1960s or early 1970s. My professor’s elderly mother was present. Albert Sabin was also present, and my professor’s elderly mother chirped at Sabin, “I just love your new institute in La Jolla!”

    Dead silence from the crowd. Sabin hated Salk.

    After a moment, Sabin replied, “I’m sorry, ma’am. Jonas Salk is the one with the edifice complex.”

    Simon Jester (7cc019)

  87. Heh! I get it. “The mother______”.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. 87. nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2014 @ 9:44 pm

    Hey, it’s Jonas Salk’s 100th birthday. He’s the guy who scared the pants off of the CDC and the March of Dimes by ending polio epidemics,

    This couldn’t be done today. Too much testing.

    And I say this even though there was a Cutter vaccine disaster in 1954, where children were given polio – because of poor manufacturing techniques. If that happened now, the vaccine would be postponed for 7 to 15 years.

    My family’s doctor, Dr. Julius Turkewitz, always stayed two years behind medical advances – maybe new drugs or vaccines. I don’t know if it was because of this. Of course, not everybody can do that or nothing would ever get started.

    making them (the CDC and the MofD) run around feverishly looking for new epidemics.

    Mostly the March of Dimes, which chose as a new cause something that could never go away, because it included everything: birth defects.

    The CDC has some genuine work.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  89. nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2014 @ 9:03 pm

    The “nurse” very likely would have had an array of experts lined up to say she was not contagious, and there would be no basis for the judge to find just cause to hold her. The conditions of her quarantine would not have helped the state’s case. Of course, it is New Jersey, so there is no reason to believe that the judge would follow the law, but you block the lanes to that bridge when you get to it.

    There seem to be contradictory things that the Governor of Maine is quoted as saying.

    In one version, he’ll seek something if she doesn’t stay away from people. In another version, he would settle for (another) blood ebola test. (She already had one in Newark)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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