Patterico's Pontifications

9/17/2014

House Votes to Arm Syrian Rebels

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:00 pm



Generally, arming people is a good idea because it’s rare that they end up fighting you with your own weapons later.

Almost never happens. Right?

Hey, remember Justin Amash? He’s the Tea-Partying Congressman who explains all his votes on Facebook. Here is an excerpt from his explanation of his vote today against arming the rebels:

If the Syrian groups that are “appropriately vetted” (the amendment’s language) succeed and oust Assad, what would result? Would the groups assemble a coalition government of anti-Assad fighters, and would that coalition include ISIS? What would happen to the Alawites and Christians who stood with Assad? To what extent would the U.S. government be obligated to occupy Syria to rebuild the government? If each of the groups went its own way, would Syria’s territory be broken apart, and if so, would ISIS control one of the resulting countries?

If the Syrian groups that we support begin to lose, would we let them be defeated? If not, is there any limit to American involvement in the war?

Perhaps some in the administration or Congress have answers to these questions. But the amendment we’ll vote on today contains none of them.

Above all, when Congress considers serious actions—especially war—we must be humble about what we think we know. We don’t know very much about the groups we propose to support or even how we intend to vet those groups. Reports in the last week suggest that some of the “appropriately vetted” groups have struck deals with ISIS, although the groups dispute the claim.

Yes, we must be humble about what we think we know — and also about our ability to foresee unintended consequences from military missions we have not thought through. Government action almost always results in some kind of unintended consequences. When that action is military action, and the people in charge have not thought about the answers to the tough questions, those unintended consequences can be harsh indeed.

I stand with Ted Cruz and Justin Amash in opposing this action. But not, apparently, with most Republicans.

99 Responses to “House Votes to Arm Syrian Rebels”

  1. Tell me again, what has Bashar al-Assad done to us?

    nk (dbc370)

  2. the Boehnerwhores whipped the vote aggressively

    this was not something you could trust Rs to vote their consciences on

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  3. What the heck, why not? Toss the President a bone as if it matters. He’s not going to do anything anyway.

    The GOP should start talking about domestic matters. The inept President will take care of the rest.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  4. Syria is a very good example of where a principled, practical embrace of American isolationism (or certainly selective US isolationism) makes the most sense.

    Mark (c160ec)

  5. Plan: that list of goals unmet and things not done once the first shot is fired.

    htom (412a17)

  6. I’ve never been that comfortable that we can discern the good guys from the bad guys in Syria, so I’m still of the opinion that we should avoid arming anyone.

    AZ_Langer (a65cb5)

  7. Hey, if it brings forward the day DC burns, why not?

    They called today for stateside members to hunt us down in our homes, servicemen first.

    What part of ‘enemy’ do you not understand?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  8. I think there is a degree of sublime brilliance to this plan. In combat planning, there are distinct differences between degrade and destroy. Destroy, in doctrinal terms, means render operationally ineffective. It does not mean kill every last one of them. It merely means make them incapable of threatening you.

    We are not going to arm these rebels with laser-guided bombs, Apache gun ships or M1A1 tanks. At best they’ll get light artillery, maybe anti-armor weapons like RPGs and AT4s. If the rebels don’t IMMEDIATELY join ISIS or Assad and turn them on us, they will have just enough fire power to get into a long, protracted, bloody, nasty fight that will render BOTH operationally ineffective. And, if it does not, what ever power they have left will only be unleashed on Asad, grinding the rebels even further while degrading that evil guy. So, to this extent, the problem kind of solves itself.

    There are two problems with it, however. 1) They might turn on us immediately, and then we’ll have American Soldiers facing American hardware. And that would be very, very bad (I’ve been overseas three times, so, yes, I do understand just how bad). 2) The real problem with ISIS is that we do have to kill them in detail. Rendering them operationally ineffective for holding large swaths of Iraq and Syria does not prevent a four-man kill team from sneaking over he border and setting off home-made grenades in a mall in Kanasas (which is exactly what I would do if I were them and it stuns me that they never have). In fact, it probably makes that easier and more likely for ISIS to pull off.

    Perhaps the most important aspect of this plan is that it is SOMETHING without putting Americans on the ground (well, many Americans… there are SPEC ops guys all over the battle field, no doubt… somebody is putting the lasers on targets to blow them up). This is the least unpleasant option of a plethora of bad ones. We will likely end up with formations of Americans on the ground to do the detailed clean up and fix/repair work. But, for now, Middle Eastern boys can do the job Middle Eastern boys should be doing themselves,” to channel a bit of LBJ and bring the Vietnam concept one step closer to reality.

    Robert C. J. Parry (cdd6a8)

  9. ummm, we’re already giving some of them TOW missiles, which, last time i looked, had a max effective range of 3,750 meters, and which can defeat the armor on all but the most modern Western tanks. i see that many of the tanks you see there apparently have reactive armor added on, but since the boxes are still intact on burned out ones i have seen, i wouldn’t be surprised if the Soviets simply put hollow boxes on their tanks, so we would assume they had reactive armor, and spend a boat load of money coming up with ways to defeat their defense.

    my personl stance is the ONLY people we should be giving/selling arms to in the region are the Israelis, since they are the ONLY country in that entire area that shares our cultural viewpoints and morality.

    arming “moderate” mooseslimes just means better armed jihadis in the long run

    redc1c4, 11H10 (abd49e)

  10. Don’t ever give our weapons to sand dune losers.
    Don’t send our soldiers to battle when you can daisy cut these muzzies.
    Isolation baby, screw the rest of the world, they have been orgasming on us for too damn long.
    Lock and Load
    repeat
    repeat
    repeat

    mg (31009b)

  11. American military action in Syria and/or Iraq is doomed to failure as long as Barack Obama occupies the White House. There’s just no 2 ways about it. Obama’s duplicity in Islamic terrorism from the Underpants Bomber, to Fort Hood, to Benghazi, to releasing top level terrorist leaders from GITMO, prove he isn’t fit for command. He’s a miserable failure as a president and a national disgrace as the Commander-in-Chief. As a loyal American who swore to uphold the US Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic, I say our fight is right here at home.

    ropelight (6f2730)

  12. Where do I start? I’ll start with redc1c4.

    my personl stance is the ONLY people we should be giving/selling arms to in the region are the Israelis, since they are the ONLY country in that entire area that shares our cultural viewpoints and morality.

    Red, that is the ONLY Middle East policy I’ve ever agreed with. Thank you.

    Now to mg:

    10.Don’t ever give our weapons to sand dune losers.
    Don’t send our soldiers to battle when you can daisy cut these muzzies.
    Isolation baby, screw the rest of the world, they have been orgasming on us for too damn long.

    mg is right. Never send troops where bombs will do. Never give or sell weapons to any Moslems. The world has gotten off almost scott free riding on our military, our money to buy ships, planes and missiles and our technology. I say send them a bill or let them do it themselves. I’m not an isolationist but I’m also not an interventionist.

    Now my friend ropelight. Yeah, everything you wrote, as usual! Thanks.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  13. It seems to me that somewhere between letting ISIS terrorize Christians and other minorities in Iraq and threaten to overrun the Kurds with captured military equipment on one hand, and arming Syrian rebels on the other, there was a more reasonable approach that we could have taken had we wanted to.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  14. For Sale: First class American military weapons formerly issued by United States Iraqi Armed Forces. Prime condition; never fired; dropped in sand once.

    nk (dbc370)

  15. #13, MD, it wasn’t we who had the reasonable option, it was Barack Obama and he made the decision to withdraw American troops without leaving a residual force in-place to prevent the inevitable rise of a renewed terrorist threat. George W Bush and virtually all our top military leaders predicted the consequences of a complete American withdrawal, but Obama refused. He insisted he knew better. Well, he got his way, and we’re left with a problem now many times greater than would otherwise been the case.

    ropelight (6f2730)

  16. I don’t understand this administration nor do I understand the leftist mentality. Arming Syrian rebels to me is Newspeak for “giving Moslems weapons”, is it not? Why on earth would we give Moslems weapons of any sort? Do you recall Roosevelt arming the moderate Germans? Of course not so what makes Obama think there’s a difference now?

    And what idiot C in C sends troops to fight ebola? Send all those wonderful leftist Doctors Without Borders but not our troops.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  17. Hoagie: Do you recall Roosevelt arming the moderate Germans

    He probably would have armed them, had any armed rebels existed. Of course they’d have had to denounce Nazi ideology and so on.

    On the other hand, he demanded unconditional surrender. Both with Germany and Japan.

    With Italy, it was enough for the new government to declare war on Germany, but the surrender was botched. And they actually enlisted the Mafia, although that was more to the Mafia’s advantage than to the Allied cause. The Mafia people lied, you know, about dangers they would prevent.

    It was viewed as a mistake to leave a German government in place in 1918, and in this case also, there was no halfway legitimate German government possible, and punishment of individuals needed to be done.

    We are trying for the opposite of unconditional surrender in Syria (except for ISIS).

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  18. FDR definitely would have armed the moderate Fascists. They were the ones who had overthrown Mussolini.

    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mussolini-falls-from-power

    During the evening of July 24 and the early hours of the 25th, the Grand Council of the fascist government met to discuss the immediate future of Italy. While all in attendance were jittery about countermanding their leader, Mussolini was sick, tired, and overwhelmed by the military reverses suffered by the Italian military. He seemed to be looking for a way out of power. One of the more reasonable within the Council, Dino Grandi, argued that the dictatorship had brought Italy to the brink of military disaster, elevated incompetents to levels of power, and alienated large portions of the population. He proposed a vote to transfer some of the leader’s power to the king. The motion was passed, with Mussolini barely reacting. While some extremists balked, and would later try to convince Mussolini to have those who voted with Grandi arrested, Il Duce was simply paralyzed, unable to choose any course of action.

    Shortly after the Grand Council vote, Mussolini, groggy and unshaven, kept his routine 20-minute meeting with the king, during which he normally updated Victor Emanuele on the current state of affairs. This morning, the king informed Mussolini that General Pietro Badoglio would assume the powers of prime minister and that the war was all but lost for the Italians. Mussolini offered no objection. Upon leaving the meeting, he was arrested by the police, who had been secretly planning a pretext to remove the leader for quite some time. They now had the Council vote of “no confidence” as their formal rationale. Assured of his personal safety, Mussolini acquiesced to this too, as he had to everything else leading up to this pitiful denouement. When news of Mussolini’s arrest was made public, relief seemed to be the prevailing mood…

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  19. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/italian-surrender-is-announced

    With Mussolini deposed from power and the earlier collapse of the fascist government in July, Gen. Pietro Badoglio, the man who had assumed power in Mussolini’s stead by request of King Victor Emanuel, began negotiating with Gen. Eisenhower for weeks. Weeks later, Badoglio finally approved a conditional surrender, allowing the Allies to land in southern Italy and begin beating the Germans back up the peninsula. Operation Avalanche, the Allied invasion of Italy, was given the go-ahead, and the next day would see Allied troops land in Salerno.

    The Germans too snapped into action…

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  20. Justin Amash:

    Would the groups assemble a coalition government of anti-Assad fighters, and would that coalition include ISIS

    That’s largely up to ISIS, and everybody knows now also not to trust ISIS.

    A peace agreement between Assad and ISIS is more likely ISIS than a peace agreement between the other Syrian rebels and Assad, but Obama’s policy seems based on the idea that that will happen.

    Yes, the weapons could wind up in the hands of ISIS, and there are two ways that could happen: by agreement, or by being captured * ; but that would only happen with mistakes on the part of the military and the commander in chief, and they can make worse ones, too.

    If you want to hope for a good outcome, this is the way to go, or as start, and if things go wrong they won’t go much more wrong than they would have if you hadn’t armed the rebels.

    Staying out altogether is also a mistake.

    So, it’s a no-brainer. Saying no does not make more sense.

    As a matter of fact the problem is, too many of the rebels are being vetted. You don’t need each individual soldier.

    * And some U.S. weapons already did, both in Iraq and in Syria, although some of the weapons got returned by al Nusra – Original al Qaeda ®, which has taken the advice Barack Obama mused
    about giving to ISIS/ISIL?IS?DAESH/Whatchamacallit, and released risoners, both U.S. and UN, without conditions.

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  21. the latest leader of Ahram Shams, started out his career in the Free Syrian Army’s Fajr battalion, previously he had been detained at Sednaya prison, which was where the regime put it’s Salafis

    narciso (ee1f88)

  22. It’s going to be very hard to avoid an at least temporary working alliance with Original al Qaeda ® ™, or at least the JV team which took their name. Especially since that is probably what some of the “Arab allies” want. And they are willing to lie, too.

    Now maybe the actual people armed and trained by the U.S. will not quite be that way, but it’s not like there’s a big reason to have confidence in the judgement of the administration.

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  23. 21.Justin Amash:

    would Syria’s territory be broken apart, and if so, would ISIS control one of the resulting countries?

    That’s exactly what the situation is now.

    Barack Obama’s policy is to continue that for the next two or three years, until the rebels he equips and trains can…

    Do what?

    Constrict the territory held by ISIS, in places where that does not help Assad? (Obama says Assad is just not in the picture near ISIS controlled territory. That’s his story, and he’s sticking to it)

    Destroy ISIS, before destroying Assad???

    The rebels say that Assad’s the bigger military problem for them.

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  24. 7. Link:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/17/law-enforcement-bulletin-warned-isis-urging-jihad-attacks-on-us-soil/

    Remember, the GOP is just trying to topple the MFM “Party of No” moniker.

    Work with us people.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  25. Israel’s our ally in the region. The rest are not to be trusted, as they can’t be trusted. They have earned our distrust.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  26. Justin Amash:

    If the Syrian groups that we support begin to lose, would we let them be defeated?

    The whole problem is that we’ve been letting them be defeated till now, especially by ISIS, and if we don’t help soon with a lot more, by bombing around Aleppo, their last major stronghold, where either Assad or ISIS might take over territory, there might not be much any remaining rebels we like can do.

    And there’s no sign Barack Obama is prepared to do anything directly to help the rebels, apoint that seems to be getting lost on some people.

    If not, is there any limit to American involvement in the war?

    No, and there’s no limit now, of course.

    Airstrikes plus a few officers and special forces, can do a lot to stave off disaster, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  27. Robert C. J. Parry (cdd6a8) — 9/18/2014 @ 12:29 am

    2) The real problem with ISIS is that we do have to kill them in detail. Rendering them operationally ineffective for holding large swaths of Iraq and Syria does not prevent a four-man kill team from sneaking over he border and setting off home-made grenades in a mall in Kanasas

    But other things do:

    A) One or more members of the 4-man kill team can have trouble navigating his way in the United States or may try to defect. In fact, that’s the kind of person who might volunteer for this.

    B) You have to get to U.S. border, too. It’s not like the Mexican government, or anytone else whose help they would need, will help them. They have to get to the Atlantic Ocean and across the Atlantic Ocean too!

    C) Most people who try to build explosives, fail, either making explosives that explode too soon, or hardly ever. This requires special training. It can not be learned long distance.

    D) The people who committed the September 11, 2001 attacks did not take anything with them across the border. The millinium bomber, or one of them, wa scaught by Customs at the Canadian borerm because he looked too nervous. And also there was a cell already in Montreal.

    E) Assuming that somehow a team of 4 gets to the U.S. Mexican border intact, and with grenades,
    it is not really possible for amateurs to sneak across the U.S. border. This would probably require the co-operation of Mexican coyotes, and the last thing they would want to do is assist in a terrorist attack, and they are more observant and “street smart” than your typical State Department employee, and would spend more time with them.

    (which is exactly what I would do if I were them

    Are you also, like President Obama, becoming an adviser to ISIS/ISIL/IS?DEASH/WHATCHAMACALLIT?

    That’s exactly what they would not do! If they don’t want the full force and weight of the United States coming at them – and whatever we might be doing, there can always be more.

    and it stuns me that they never have).

    Too many people are confusing deterrence with security. Deterrence is a reason, I think, that there haven’t been more terrorist attacks in the United States.

    Difficulty is a factor, too, and that increases the power of deterrence.

    In fact, it [arming the rebels] probably makes that easier and more likely for ISIS to pull off.

    Not easier to pull off, but more likely to be attempted.

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  28. 29.Robert C. J. Parry:

    But, for now, Middle Eastern boys can do the job Middle Eastern boys should be doing themselves,” to channel a bit of LBJ and bring the Vietnam concept one step closer to reality.

    I think you mean Nixon. Nixon’s policy was Vietnamization.

    Obama is channelling LBJ in Syria, though:

    Front Page of today’s Wall Street Journal:

    I saw today’s Wall Street Street Journal front page.

    Obama Tightens Grip on Strikes.

    In Syria, President Plans to Exert Personal Control Over Air Attacks on Islamic State

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  29. ropelight (6f2730) — 9/18/2014 @ 6:25 am
    Certainly true.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  30. As long as these weapons go to the good Muslims everything will be fine.

    /s

    highpockets (f65e70)

  31. He probably would have armed them, had any armed rebels existed.

    Well, some did Sammy, they called it Warsaw. And FDR helped them so much they were eradicated to the last man, woman and child.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  32. SF: “He probably would have armed them, had any armed rebels existed.”

    Hoagie (4dfb34) — 9/18/2014 @ 11:12 am

    Well, some did Sammy, they called it Warsaw. And FDR helped them so much they were eradicated to the last man, woman and child.

    That was in Poland. Stalin actually encouraged it, then let them get killed. They themselves had watched the Jewish revolt.

    I was thinking of the French resistance.

    Perhaps it is more acccurate to say the British would have helped, because they were the ones doing it.

    Maybe not Germans.

    Allen Dulles was trying some kind of negotiations in Switzerland

    http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=1548

    As evinced by the selections chosen and edited by Neal H. Petersen (Deputy Historian in the U.S Department of State), Dulles’s Bern mission engaged in intelligence-gathering, psychological operations, counter-intelligence, covert actions, extensive funding of resistance groups, and–although here Dulles as an intermediary stayed on the right side of a fine line–near negotiations with the German military…

    … Dulles was adept at obtaining monies from government sources and private individuals to support resistance groups, clandestine presses, labor organizations, and various destabilizing projects, often managing to get money to Reich opponents who would have rejected open funding from a Western source….

    ….Among Dulles’s successes were the recruiting of Fritz Kolbe, a German Foreign Ministry officer who had access to key military and diplomatic documents, some revealing Cicero, the German spy who served as valet to the British Ambassador to Turkey, and the “Breakers” contacts which enabled Dulles accurately to describe the members and growing determination of the circles involved in the 20 July 1944 assassination attempt. Dulles’s precise memorandums about the plot marked the true ascendancy of his reputation in Washington and were revelant when passed, only after the fact, to the British cousins with whom a wary Dulles was often at odds. Intelligence that the Americans in Bern had had contact with German plotters who hoped to deal with the West thus went to Philby and no doubt to Moscow where presumably it helped fuel Russian fears about the solidity of the Coalition….

    …A major, curious, disturbing, and certainly deliberate omission in Dulles’s Bern reports is the virtual lack of any material relating to the fate of Jews in Nazi Europe and of the mechanisms of Nazi genocide…

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  33. He must have been dealing with guilty people, or people who did not want any occupation.

    Sammy Finkelman (6d2ca9)

  34. ISIS/ISIL was apparently planning an operation in Australia – not very effectively.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/australian-officials-isis-plot-to-behead-random-person-in-sydney-thwarted/

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/australian-leader-warns-planned-random-attack-25585654

    Nothing as technically advanced as bombs or grenades.

    They were trying to get people loyal to them – which maybe they had a problem finding anyway – to behead one or more people.

    (beheading being their signature)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  35. 30. Here’s the link, for those who can access it: (the online version of the article has a slightly different headline and an even more different URL title)

    Obama Plans to Tightly Control Strikes on Syria

    Requirements Will Be More Stringent Than Those for Attacks on Islamic State in Iraq

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  36. ISIS apparently has a British journalist, who apaprently successfully bargained for his life:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/british-journalist-appears-in-new-isis-propaganda-video

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  37. He will host a series of videos supposedly revealing the truth about Islamic State and why fighting agasinst it is wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  38. it’s so undignified how Meghan’s coward daddy goes all Al Haig whenever America does something even tentatively and unseriously aggressive somewheres in the middle east

    #theydidsomethingtohisbrain

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  39. oh.

    We’re flushing 5 BILLION dollars down the toilet?

    I thought food stamp only asked for $500 million for arming and training in his little speech

    wtf happened?

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  40. Happy feet – mission creep before they ever start.

    JD (fe9d30)

  41. i’m kind of alarmed

    this is beyond silly now

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  42. giving five billion dollars to a filthy band of hyper-violent jew-haters is NOT a stroke of genius

    these aren’t pets these are wild animals

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  43. JD (fe9d30) — 9/18/2014 @ 3:28 pm

    mission creep before they ever start.

    This thing won’t work without mission creep!!

    The mission (in Syria) is too modest.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  44. mission creep? That creep is John Francois Kerry.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  45. I hereby declare a chubwa on Heather Nauert! Inshallicious!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  46. From he Lomg War Journal link @49

    The SRF, which is supplied and backed by the United States, continues to fight alongside the Al Nusrah Front, al Qaeda’s official branch in Syria.

    While it is unclear whether they share the same ideology, it is still worth noting that a Western-backed force works in conjunction with al Qaeda. The Long War Journal has previously noted that the leader of the SRF, Jamal Maarouf, has stated that he has no problem with al Qaeda and that they have shared weapons in the past.

    Of course, that’s Original al Qaeda ® ™ , not ISIS.

    Original al Qaeda ® ™ apparently took Barack Obama’s advice, because he may actually have communicated this advice, to wit, that the way to get the United States NOT to go to war with you is to free U.S. prisoners, because they released the American prisoner they were holding, and he crossed the border over into Israel, and returned on a plane from Tel Aviv.

    Hamas may even have finally (or is it temporarily?), stopped the Gaza war for his sake. (on Qatar’s orders of course – Qatar arranged this release.)

    Qatar had also earlier ordered them to resume it.

    Now they are so anxious to maintain the ceasefire, at least till next week, that they even arrested someone they said had fired a mortar, after Israel had warned them they’d better do that if they didn’t want some more bombing because only that would show they meant to keep the ceasefire. Now the questions are, did they know in advance, or was that the guilty party, and how long will they arrested?

    al Nusra, an affiliate of Original al Qaeda ® ™ – or at least a JV team that took its name, and is in communication with core al Qaeda – also released the 45 UN peacekeepers they were holding without any conditions, giving up whatever demands they had been making.

    They were said to want to get off the terrorism list – the affiliate that is, not core al Qaeda – and get some money – not ransom, but compensation for 3 soldiers killed by the UN when they attacked the UN peacekeepers – and to have the UN force the Assad government to let some humanitarian aid go to areas not controlled by him in or near Damascus. But they gave that all up.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  47. I’m really sorry to have to say this, Sam, but your roving analysis isn’t even intelligible, let alone coherent, not to say cohesive.

    There is no organizing, over-arching sapience to your stream of consciousness. You have totally lost your audience and are just obstructing any social intercourse.

    Is that really enough Sammy, m’boy?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  48. I hereby declare a chubwa on Heather Nauert! Inshallicious!

    i’m calling rape culture on this one, just in case

    happyfeet (a785d5)

  49. gary gulrud (46ca75) — 9/18/2014 @ 6:33 pm

    There is no organizing, over-arching sapience to your stream of consciousness. You have totally lost your audience and are just obstructing any social intercourse.

    It’s just over your head – maybe a lot of people’s heads – that’s all.

    But if you were following this in more detail, you’d understand.

    I just threw in too many things in – for instance, Hamas stopping the Gaza war on Qatar’s orders in order to make sure nothing would happen to freed Original al Qaeda ® ™ prisoner Peter Theo Curtis when he left Israel from Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv. Which is what I suspect happened.

    I said that Original al Qaeda ® ™, unlike ISIS, had followed the counsel of Barack Obama.

    Here’s a little background:

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.612304

    U.S. journalist freed by Al-Qaida-linked group is safe in Israel, source says

    Nusra Front in Syria frees Peter Theo Curtis one week after Islamic State executes James Foley…

    …White House national security adviser Susan Rice said Curtis is now safe outside of Syria.

    A senior administration official said Curtis was released in the Golan Heights, where he was met by U.S. government personnel who were transporting him to Tel Aviv. The official was not authorized to speak by name and discussed the release on the condition of anonymity…

    …Qatar’s Foreign Ministry confirmed late Sunday that the Gulf emirate succeeded in gaining Curtis’ release…

    ….In March, the Qataris helped negotiate the release of more than a dozen Greek Orthodox nuns held by the Nusra Front. Late last year, Qatar also helped broker a deal that saw nine Lebanese pilgrims held in Syria by rebels go free in exchange for the release of two Turkish pilots held hostage in Lebanon…

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  50. 56. We’re talking about the United States ambassador to Egypt, Anne Patterson. She tried to stop protests against Morsi. She had also met with Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood leader Mohammed Badie.

    She even got accused of conspiring with the Moslem Brotherhood.

    Who knows how much of this stuff circulating about her is Putin’s disinformation? She was only supporting constitutionality, and Obama’s instructions. Well, Hillary Clinton’s too.

    It’s her embassy that issued taht tweet about not being responsible for the video.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  51. Probably the biggest hindrance to us aiding al-Nusra and al-Sham is that they aren’t interested in any outsiders getting involved. I suspect that somewhere along the line, they’ll be turning us down when we go ahead and offer to help.
    Siding with happyfeet on the wisdom of the Syrian strategy. It would probably be more sensible to arm the PKK than the “moderates” (not that that’s a good idea).

    Now, as to ISIS: From what I’ve read, they have a big-picture plan that goes more-or-less:
    -take over Iraq, the Levant, and Arabia (Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem)
    -take over the Caucasus
    -take over, in what order I’m not sure,
    – the more eastern parts of the Muslim world (Iran, the -stans, Northwestern China, Mongolia, parts of Siberia)
    – North Africa
    – Turkey, the Balkans, and Greece
    – Spain
    (Those constitute most of the regions which were once subject to “Islamic” governments.)
    -take over Italy (to “fly the Jihadist flag over Rome”)
    -In no particular order, settle scores with foes and invade Muslim and Muslim-minority countries

    Ibidem (e49d43)

  52. Who knows how much of this stuff circulating about her is Putin’s disinformation?

    Sammy, you should know full well that if one is dealing with the mind of a liberal, something truly idiotic probably is aligned with or connected to it. Vladimir Putin or some other third party doesn’t have to lift a finger to make the left throughout the Western World, and particularly in Obama’s America, look or sound (or behave) like nitwits and fools.

    Mark (c160ec)

  53. this was her statement in Doha, the hive of Salafi influence from South Asia to Western Europe

    “I believe we can do much together to contain and roll back the threat posed by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant’s aspirations to create a terrorist state in western Iraq and eastern Syria. ISIL draws on the widespread anger in the region and beyond over the Assad regime’s brutal repression of its people — repression supported by Hezbollah and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. To defeat ISIL, the United States and the countries of the region need to work in concert — and overcome some differences — to develop effective policies and durable solutions to this dangerous threat,” Patterson said.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  54. 61. What does this mean?

    She starts saying that ISIL is taking advantage of widespread anger the Assad regime. She takes time out to remind us that Hezbollah and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard support Assad = we should not ally ourselves with Iran.

    And them, to defeat ISIL we need to…do what? Develop something effective? I suppose so.

    I think that means that when she said that, we didn’t have a strategy for defeating ISIL.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  55. “Who knows how much of this stuff circulating about her is Putin’s disinformation?”

    Mark (c160ec) — 9/18/2014 @ 8:33 pm

    Sammy, you should know full well that if one is dealing with the mind of a liberal, something truly idiotic probably is aligned with or connected to it.

    I wasn’t talking about anything that she actually did, but what was being said about what she did. That could be Putin’s dsinformation (intended for the new government of Egypt and its supporters)

    To have them think that the United States really supported, or wanted he Moslem Brotherhood in power.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  56. 59. Ibidem (e49d43) — 9/18/2014 @ 8:31 pm

    Probably the biggest hindrance to us aiding al-Nusra and al-Sham is that they aren’t interested in any outsiders getting involved.

    Well, that’s a good thing.

    Right now, it’s the only al Qaeda affiliate I think that we are not “at war” with.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  57. the Abdullah Azzam Brigades, fielded by guess which party, have been effective against Hezbollah, but that’s a monster of a different nature,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  58. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-18/scots-independence-voting-ends-as-u-k-hangs-in-balance.html

    At midnight (online) with about half the vote in, No is the low 50s and yes in the high 40s.

    Yes 44.7%
    No 55.3%

    That’s really 55% to 45%

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  59. narciso in wrong thread:

    The Abdullah Azzam Brigades, fielded by guess which party,

    Abdullah Azzam was Osama bin Laden’s predecessor, or was treated that way by al Qaeda

    have been effective against Hezbollah, but that’s a monster of a different nature,

    It’s not ISIS.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  60. Try again: narciso:

    The Abdullah Azzam Brigades, fielded by guess which party,

    Abdullah Azzam was Osama bin Laden’s predecessor, or was treated that way by al Qaeda. He was assassinated.

    have been effective against Hezbollah, but that’s a monster of a different nature,

    It’s not ISIS.

    Obama doesn’t seem interterested in defeating Assad. He still wants a negotiated solution.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  61. Oh, my post about the vote totals was in the wrong thread.

    Sammy Finkelman (96f386)

  62. Are these the same moderate rebels that just a couple months ago, Obama said it would be a fantasy for them to fight successfully, because they were doctors and dentists etc ?

    JD (b77384)

  63. yes, that was last month, the head of the Free Syrian army, is an electrical engineering professor,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  64. FWIW, like we needed convincing:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-18/when-war-erupts-patriots-will-be-accused-aiding-enemy

    No more front lines.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  65. “It’s just over your head – maybe a lot of people’s heads – that’s all.”

    Eureka! Sammy’s striking a blow for misunderestimated genius. Pffft.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  66. 68. ” Try again: narciso:”

    Good terrorist, bad terrorist, the means by which terrorists are rehabilitated as freedom fighters, revolutionary heros, and we sail in like Rochambeau fighting arm in arm with Hizb’allah and Al Qaeda.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  67. 70. JD (b77384) — 9/18/2014 @ 9:46 pm

    Are these the same moderate rebels that just a couple months ago, Obama said it would be a fantasy for them to fight successfully, because they were doctors and dentists etc ?

    I think the ones he wants to train are. He was saying they couldn’t have defeated Assad.

    Maybe he thinks they’re more equal to ISIS.

    Or that, they couldn’t do it in a short time, but now that he’s going to take 1 to 2 years training them, it might work.

    But anyway, he’s not interested in helping them go on offense against Assad, only ISIS. (With Assad, he wants a negotiated settlement)

    I know that sounds crazy. It is crazy.

    The whole Syrian policy has got some very obvious flaws.

    He’s got a military plan for Iraq that might work, but not for Syria, and 2/3 of ISIS/ISIL/IS/DAESH/WHATCHMACALLIT, as well as its headquarters, is in Syria.

    Obama knows that a policy has to include both, and that he can’t really accomplish anything not reversible, or completely, if there are sanctuaries, but his plan to train a syrian rebel army seems to be the best thing the military can come up with, given the limitations he is placing.

    I think Obama really wants some Arab army to invade Syria, but nobody’s volunteering. I think he only wants them to go into the ISIS or Sunni areas. I’m guessing and trying to read between the lines.

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)

  68. Lebanon has a government that rules different sects, but everything else is either Shitte or Sunni.

    It’s got to be Lebanon that invades and occupies Syria. It’s the only thing that can work – once Hezbollah disappears, I suppose, or once they get into a civil war in Lebanon.

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)

  69. Obama needs the ME kabuki theatre to continue while transforming Amerikkka.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/11102943/Barack-Obama-silences-generals-on-US-ground-troops-in-Iraq.html

    Apart from war the world’s respect for his orifice has evaporated and he needs full civilian control of the military to continue his plan, such as it is.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  70. Correct my spelling of Shiite – a typo threw my previous comment into moderation.

    The thing about Lebanon invading and occupying Syria is, not only does it make more strategic and practical sense than relying on a U.S. trained Syrian rebel army which will be ready to go on offense in about two years, but it is fully legal, and requires no United Nations Security Council resolution, or act of aggression, or incipient genocide.

    Syria and Lebanon signed a treaty many years ago that allowed Syrian peacekeeping troops to enter into and occupy parts of Lebanon, and vice versa.

    It would only be fair to have Lebanese peacekeeping troops in Damascus, the way Syrian peacekeeping troops were once in Beirut. The Ba’ath regime could hardly object. Poetic justice.

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)

  71. 79. “I’m guessing and trying to read between the lines.”

    Translation: I’m flinging sh!t against the wall to see whether any of it sticks.

    Are you paid for your work here or just on disability?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  72. remember when they made such a fuss over Shinseki, the only officer, they could fill after Wesley Clark, proved unpalatable, if Mattis and Petraeus are against, this is ‘Norwegian Blue’

    narciso (ee1f88)

  73. From an approved source:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/rift-widens-between-obama-us-military-over-strategy-to-fight-islamic-state/2014/09/18/ebdb422e-3f5c-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html

    The Catalist developed strategy, keeping the Dhimmi base intact, demands ‘no boots on the ground’.

    So to get everyone on board let’s spend big money.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  74. Remedial education:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2014/09/18/congressman-the-cia-thinks-obamas-strategy-of-arming-syrian-moderates-is-doomed-to-failure/

    Denial today from CIA will be corrected some Friday evening after Nov.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  75. Hot air:

    Who believes a war that’s been raging for three and a half years, with hundreds of thousands of people dead, between every degenerate Sunni and Shiite jihadi outfit in the Middle East is going to be won by a few thousand amateurs who’ve had a couple months of training from Uncle Sam?

    Not even Obama.

    This strategy is what you get when you have ruled out everything else and I also think he’s looking for some Arab army to come in.

    Now, if the idea was that good half of the Iraqi army, and the Iraqi (Peshmerga) Kurds, after chasing ISIS/ISIL/IS>DAESH/WHATCHAMACALLIT out of Iraq continued into Syria, maybe that might make sense.

    And you could enlist the Syrian Kurds, as soon they completed a few purges.

    And what about the Lebanese army?

    Or maybe the problem will be solved for Obama if ISIS invades Jordan. T

    Incidentally, who said anything about a few months?

    Hot Air is not paying attention (and the Obama Adminsitration is not trying to get too much attention paid to this) but Obama’s plan calls for that Syrian rebel army to start really doing things in two or three years. It’s kind of sotte voce, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  76. 41. Of course. And last year the idea was that they should fight Assad.

    Hot Air:

    We’re giving them $5 billion to stop ISIS. Aren’t we?

    Honestly, I’m so confused by White House policy towards Syria at this point that I’m not sure whether O will consider this a bug or a feature of his strategy.

    Well, you see already the rebels are saying:

    “We will be unable to finish off ‘Islamic State’ without also acting to stop Assad’s barbaric assaults.

    I think the Catholics call this the principle of “double effect”

    Obama is giving them weapons and training to fight ISIL, but he doesn’t mind if they also fight Assad – up to a point, and that most of the U.S. help goes to fighting ISIL.

    I think actually though the startegy is based on the idea they are two, separate, disconnected wars.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  77. Flight Ban Instituted After Islamists Clash in Yemen Shiites protesting the withdrawal of price subsidies in the north, Al Qaeda in the south.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  78. France Joins U.S. in Launching Airstrikes on ISIS Targets Only in Iraq.

    Nothing in Syria, so far.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  79. 87. I think this is what they call craniorectal infarction.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  80. Mike Rogers, the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and Dianne Feinstein, the Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee will both be on Face the Nation this Sunday, and he was trying to get more. I heard that this morning on the radio and learned that the show is also broadcast on WCBS AM radio 880 in New York.

    I don’t know how much either will pick apart Obama’s forlorn Syrian strategy.

    Sammy Finkelman (cb098f)

  81. 93. Months? A year or a year and a half.

    Something will change before that time.

    Sammy Finkelman (cb098f)

  82. Anyone hear an ISIS spox proclaiming they won’t send ground troops to the US? Or, announcing they’ll build an coalition of Islamic states to oppose US intervention? Just askin’

    ropelight (6577a4)

  83. 92. The appearance of doing something helpful when in fact aiding and abetting the enemy.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  84. I heard the Syrians will be “trained” for a year. Sounds like we are trying to remove them from the battle, not train them.

    Three-dimensional diplomatic chess or just incompetence?

    Patricia (5fc097)

  85. Some guy with the Old Grey Whore:

    If our failure to build an army capable of stabilizing Iraq after our departure looks like a pure tragedy, then the arm-the-rebels gambit in Syria has more than a whiff of farce.

    The GOP is willingly being played.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)


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