Patterico's Pontifications

8/19/2014

Brown Autopsy: Shots From Front

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:54 am

So the autopsy is out and the shots came from the front — although one shot is arguably ambiguous.

Hot Air has video of the Brown family lawyer claiming that that shot, a shot to the head, was “back to front” — but that’s meaningless given the specific facts. It’s a shot that enters the top of the head and comes out the right eye socket. Unless the officer was standing directly over a kneeling Brown, which nobody has said to my knowledge, all it really means is that the top of Brown’s head was pointing towards the officer when the shot was fired. A head can move around quite a bit in a fluid situation. We really can’t know whether from the angle of the shot whether Brown was falling backward, or whether he had his head down and was facing forward.

444 Responses to “Brown Autopsy: Shots From Front”

  1. My understanding is that Dr Baden identified Brown’s (already embalmed body) right eye-socket as the site of an entry wound. He reported the bullet than passed down through Brown’s face and exited in the area of the lower right jaw. It then re-entered Brown’s body where the neck joins the upper torso and struck the right clavicle.

    The eye socket shot and the other head shot (which entered at the crown of Brown’s head and passed down into his body) are going to be difficult for Officer Wilson to explain. Why did he continue to shoot if Brown was already on his way down?

    ropelight (b5fb75)

  2. If Brown’s lawyers can define the eye socket wound as an exit wound then we have only 5 shots and not 6 with a plausible case for a single head shot back to front. Much will depend on the initial autopsy and on the number of rounds expended by Officer Wilson.

    ropelight (b5fb75)

  3. Why did he continue to shoot if Brown was already on his way down?

    Who says he was on his way down? He had his head down, which is consistent with him charging Wilson.

    In any case, “on his way down” is not “down”. Even if he was on his way down he would still have had forward momentum, and Wilson would have had to keep shooting to stop him.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  4. ropelight (b5fb75) — 8/19/2014 @ 8:08 am

    Why did he continue to shoot if Brown was already on his way down?

    Bear in mind, that the gun he had probably will fire off one round very quickly after
    the other – within a fraction of a second.

    It is reported there were two shots – and then there were about five shots in rapid succession.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  5. Ropelight

    Could those injuries be possible in a shooting of a charging suspect?

    EPWJ (0e7ed5)

  6. Sounds like the encounter with Brown was legal contact, but the way the officer used lethal force is suspect. Anyone know how far away Brown was when he turned around and got shot?

    Seems like there was a struggle at the car, Brown may have struck the officer and took off. The officer chased him while firing his gun. At which point Brown may have stopped and turned around to surrender, but was shot instead. Whether or not he bum rushed the cop is the only issue left as to whether the shooting was justified (If he was 10 yards away, that would be more of a threat than if he was 30 yards away).

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  7. The officer chased him while firing his gun

    There is no indication from the autopsy results that the officer fired his gun while Brown’s back was turned. They’d have to find credible witnesses or shell casings in certain loci.

    We really can’t know whether from the angle of the shot whether Brown was falling backward, or whether he had his head down and was facing forward.

    Re the photos of the aftermath. It is a reasonable inference that Brown fell forward. Dr. Baden has offered the opinion that the two head shots were the last.

    Hot Air has video of the Brown family lawyer claiming that that shot, a shot to the head, was “back to front” —

    The family lawyer is that malicious fraud, Ben Crump.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  8. Turned around and moved toward the officer, Dejectedhead. It would be truly tragic if the officer misinterpreted an approach that was meant to be surrender, as aggression.
    What is or isn’t reasonable force is going to be shaded by what happened before.

    SarahW (267b14)

  9. Breaking: Hamas breaks truce, which was extended for 24 hours yesterday. As usual, they broke it early (it expired at 5 pm)

    Hamas does not want to give up war, war crimes and terrorism, and Israel was insisting on that – not in so many words, but by insisting on no lifting of the blockade without Hamas agreeing to disarm itself of rockets and not build tunnels and some system set up to prevent that.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  10. Another issue is how badly was Officer Wilson hurt (if at all) during the struggle at the car (if, indeed, such occurred.)

    There have been reports that Wilson was treated at a hospital after the incident and that his face was swollen. Just wondering if he could have suffered a concussion, which may have affected his judgement.

    Mustang (2dd274)

  11. Dejectedhead,

    Brown’s body was 35 feet from the police car. So the fatal shots were fired at less than 35 feet if they ran and the officer pursued before Brown turned around.

    I have not seen where the shots while they were running away have been officially confirmed. They are problematic, but only as relates that Missouri law has not been altered to bring it into compliance with a 1985 SCOTUS decision on the use of deadly force to stop a fleeing individual. In any case, the shots did not cause Brown’s death, although one may have grazed his arm.

    JKB (29d359)

  12. Because if a big guy who punched you in the face before and/or struggled for your weapon and turned it on you is coming right at you, instead of halting, ones perception of hostility might take a reasonably suspicious turn.

    SarahW (267b14)

  13. Hamas claims somebody else fired the rockets, (Who? Islamic Jihad? They came out in favor fo atrucem nt havinbg the security of the bunker under Shifa Hospital.)

    Hamas blames Israel for breaking the truce, but doesn’t seem sad about it. It claims Israel wanted to influenmce Cairo talks and threatens Israel saying: If Netanyahu doesn’t understand diplomatic language, we will force him to understand.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  14. Brown’s body was 35 feet from the police car.

    I think that’s about four seconds away at a start-up running speed.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  15. Officer Wilson sustained a fracture of the bone around his eye, I would assume of a blow from Brown at the police car.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  16. #7. Eye witnesses report the officer firing while Brown was running. Though he likely missed those shots, so that there would be nothing indicated in the autopsy.

    #8. Moving toward the officer is not necessarily a “Bum rush” and if he was standing a significant distance from the officer when he moved toward him, there is no credible threat to the officer’s safety. (Hence why I asked about the distance, he was 35 feet from the patrol car, but don’t know the distance from the officer when he turned). The issue is…if you are being chased by police and the officer is ordering you to surrender/freeze. If you stop and turn to surrender, that isn’t grounds to be shot.

    I certainly think there are some self-serving narratives being developed, but most of the focus has been on the interactions with the cops prior to the shooting. If Brown fled and turned to surrender or was even a significant distance from the cop when the cop continued to fire, I can certainly understand why witnesses would feel like they witnessed a murder (whether or not the cop falls within the legal protections of use of lethal force).

    I just think this case has more to do with the actual shooting event than the encounter prior.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  17. Like maybe a head-down charging situation? Nah, unpossible…

    mojo (00b01f)

  18. 15. Patricia (5fc097) — 8/19/2014 @ 9:35 am

    Officer Wilson sustained a fracture of the bone around his eye, I would assume of a blow from Brown at the police car.

    That’s a pretty serious wound.

    I am not at all clear that it was it Brown who assaulted Officer Wilson in the car – it could have been Dorian Johnson.

    Be careful about that.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  19. BTW, ever hear the phrase “charge the gun, run from the knife”?

    mojo (00b01f)

  20. In our calmer moments we know not to trust initial reports.
    Unfortunately, too many people, even if they know it, fail to remember it;
    and the initial report is what sticks in people’s minds.

    As in Trevon Martin, the first report is biased and unreliable and now even falsified, it seems, by the autopsy report.

    What do we know for sure?
    That there was an incident between a police officer and someone who had just robbed a store, and the person who robbed the store is dead after being shot multiple times,
    and we have the autopsy report.
    Other than that, we have
    the testimony of the conspirator in the robbery, who said he was shot with his hands up for no reason, of course, for several days we did not know this witness was a participant with the deceased in a robbery (he probably didn’t know that we would know when he said it).

    I have seen some things claiming that there was a witness who said Brown was charging the officer when the shots were fired, and that witness is recorded on a cell phone video somewhere and posted online, but then taken down (at least at the original source).
    There were also comments I read about the officer being punched in the face (perhaps through the open car window when the officer asked Brown a question) and that Brown had verbally taunted the officer saying, “You won’t shoot!”
    I also saw a claim that there was a statement made by the officer after the event and that CNN had it.

    Sammy, since you like to research things, and I have other things to do, could you try to track down if there is backing to those claims I have seen.

    If somebody did have video on You Tube of a witness saying that Brown was charging, then took it down, I would love for that person to be charged with obstruction of justice and conspiracy in the riots-
    now, I know in no way is that a real possibility, and it may be that it was taken down out of fear of harm, and that I can understand,
    but any willful acts of dishonesty to help fuel the flames instead of clarify are deplorable.

    One last thought, we have been told he had marijuana in his system, I don’t know if that means all of the other tests were negative, or whether there is a quick test for pot that was positive and other tests, like PCP, are pending.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  21. 15.Officer Wilson sustained a fracture of the bone around his eye, I would assume of a blow from Brown at the police car.
    Patricia (5fc097) — 8/19/2014 @ 9:35 am

    That seems to be an important piece of information, not that it proves anything directly about the circumstances of the shooting.
    I don’t doubt you at all, Patricia, but where did you get that info?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  22. If I’m running toward you, my head is down, and I’m wincing from other gunshot wounds, it’s possible for a shot to enter the top of the head and exit the right eye.

    CrustyB (69f730)

  23. As another point, police are taught to back up and keep shooting as people advancing on them fall down and stop. They are only to stop shooting when the person stops and they realize it.

    Why? Several reasons. One, the attacker may just have tripped. Two, no guarantee any shot has really stopped the fight. And three, an ‘unconscious’ attacker can still attack, inflict damage, and even kill.

    If you want to be amused, look at the recent Rhonda Roussey vs. Alexis Davis fight. The fight’s over in 16 seconds, the ref stops and pulls Rhonda off.. but even unconscious Alexis Davis is still wrestling at the referee’s leg and trying to come back to consciousness and fight to win.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  24. I sure don’t want to live the 60′s riots all over again.
    sheesh.

    mg (31009b)

  25. Is there a distinction in these self-defense cases between an officer fearing for his safety and fearing for his life? I can imagine situations — in theory — where an officer faces danger of bodily harm but his life is not threatened. Being hit with a fist or some projectile hurled at him, maybe? Is he justified in then shooting, which, at close range, is likely to kill the suspect? Should he defend himself, but not with a deadly weapon? Didn’t police also use to be equipped with a good solid club? I started wondering about this question in all of the cases of police shooting dogs, no invidious comparison to Mr. Brown intended.

    Bud Norton (29550d)

  26. Google indicates to me:

    It seems to be:

    charge a gun and run from a knife

    the indefinite article.

    Here’s an example of this advice:

    http://exiledonline.com/mark-ames-presents-wisdom-for-the-ages-always-rush-a-gun-and-run-from-a-knife/

    This advice comes from organized crime via Jimmy Hoffa.

    Here again:

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/robert-farago/self-defense-tip-run-up-and-shoot-the-bad-guy/

    It’s not for nothing that Jimmy Hoffa lived by the rule “charge a gun, run from a knife.”

    I guess it didn’t work for Jimmy Hoffa in the end.

    Curtis Sliwa maybe had a better idea. Go out the car window, if you can.

    But this is a little like General Patton, who said run to enemy fire, not away. Either way they’ll miss.

    More:

    http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/12/19/should-you-ever-rush-a-gunman/

    It’s also what they teach us in the Marine Corps: If you’re ambushed, charge ‘em. If you don’t charge, you’re all dead. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it’s true.

    Or:

    http://tdatraining.blogspot.com/2006/06/rush-gun-run-from-knife.html

    Within reasonable range and assuming you are not similarly armed, you rush a gun simply because you have no chance of controlling it if you are within the range of the weapon, but outside arm’s reach. Since you cannot outrun a bullet, you might as well position yourself so you at least have a chance of controlling the weapon and possibly disarming your assailant.

    But who trained Michael Brown?

    Also, this was a policeman, not a member of a rival gang.

    But then, Michael Brown was maybe too young and inexperienced to understand the difference. A policeman, even if attacked, generally wants a person to surrender.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  27. MD in Philly – The info on Wilson’s fractured orbital socket is up on Gateway Pundit but sourced from elsewhere in St. Louis.

    As yet we have not seen Dorian Johnson’s official police statement, which may differ significantly from what he has been telling reporters. The same is true for other folks claiming to be witnesses. Statements to reporters may be different than what statements thay made to police and what they may be willing to swear to in court.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  28. 25. The source here is “two local St. Louis sources”

    Probability of being true: Maybe 75% to 90%. Especially if the truth will be released soon.

    Till now we only heard of a less serious injury.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  29. #7. Eye witnesses report the officer firing while Brown was runnin

    We know the principal ‘eyewitness’ was lying.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  30. 28. We know already, that when Dorian Johnson spoke to the FBI and St. Louis detectives, he acknowledged the robbery.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  31. “I sure don’t want to live the 60′s riots all over again.
    sheesh.”

    mg – I remember the Newark riots. No comparison. These are just peaceful protestors in Ferguson looting and burning businesses, throwing bottles and Molotov cocktails at and shooting at police. Law enforcement has no business dressing in riot gear to protect themselves and local businesses and residents from the peaceful protestors. It just incites them. LOL.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  32. The orbital fracture is an important piece of evidence too. If socked in the face and suffering from an eye injury, it would certainly seem to have pushed the officer into a reasonable fear category AND would have diminished his ability to assess any surrender type situation (if that happened).

    Now, the facial fracture seems to be at odds with the video shot by Piaget Crenshaw. In which she claims the officer is still there at the scene after the shooting. Maybe Crenshaw was mistaken and that wasn’t the same officer?

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  33. #30. I don’t doubt that people make up stories to support their version. Saw that happen with the Trayvon Martin case.

    That being said, when you have multiple sources stating the same series of events early on, those should be taken into account.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  34. There is this:

    http://danaloeschradio.com/alleged-friend-of-officer-darren-wilson-offers-his-side/

    This call happened Friday. CNN reported on it on Monday. (From “Josie” She says she learned it from his significant other on Sunday before the riots started, when it wass kind of a open discussion.)

    She begins at 1:15 and the actual interview ends about 2 minutes later. Recording goes on longer.

    She says they got to be about 35 feet away when they stopped..

    Michael says: “You’re not going to shoot me.”

    Then he starts coming closer.

    Final shot was on the forehead.

    Story is consistent with the autopsy results which had not been released. Josie is not all solid on thd details.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  35. 32. This is thw same Gatewqay Pundit story, attributed to two local St. Louis sources

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  36. Breaking: Eric Holder orders autopsy on Officer Darren Wilson.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  37. One of the autopsy photos show a shot to the palm of the hand. A palm faces backward if you are walking or running. It only faces forward if your hands are in the air. What sense would it make to be charging, head nearly parallel to the ground, and having your hands in the air? What about the possibility the palm shot happened as he was moving away from the officer?

    Another party (8e12a4)

  38. “That being said, when you have multiple sources stating the same series of events early on, those should be taken into account.”

    Dejectedhead – Meanwhile store which was robbed by Michael and Dorian claimed it did not want to report robbery because it has to operate in neighborhood. Has no snitching policy. Reported by 3rd party. Witnesses supposedly corroborating police version remain unidentified. Out of fear?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. Michael was running at the officer and wouldn’t stop even when he was firing his gun at him (according to Josie) after Wilson had said “Freeze” and they had stopped.

    Then Michael had said “Oh, Whaddya gonna do about it? You’re not gonna shoot me.”

    And he starts charging at him full speed like I suppose an NFL linebacker trying to make a tackle. Or maybe a running back? Track star? How fast can you run 10 yards?

    Wilson thinks he is on drugs.

    Wilson takes out his gun and fires. Michael Brown runs all the while while the officer is firing at him. He doesn’t stop.

    Michael fell about 2-3 feet away from him. He had gone from about 35 feet away. Dorian Johnson kept his distance.

    Earlier, Michael had struggled with him over the gun, and at one point got the gun nearly pointed at Darren Wilson’s hip, and he shoved it away. It went off.

    Then he started running away (and they stop when the officer says “Freeze”)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  40. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2014 @ 10:39 am

    store which was robbed by Michael and Dorian claimed it did not want to report robbery because it has to operate in neighborhood. Has no snitching policy. Reported by 3rd party. Witnesses supposedly corroborating police version remain unidentified. Out of fear? From the Wall Street Journal today: Of Ferguson and Fallujah

    Ferguson is hardly the most dangerous neighborhood in St. Louis County; rates of violent crime are just below the national median, and far below those of East St. Louis, probably the most violent neighborhood in America.

    But there is disorder in Ferguson. The city has 190 crimes per square mile, compared with a national median of 39.3. If you live in Ferguson, you are nearly twice as likely to have your car stolen, get mugged, or have your house broken into, than if you live in Averageville, U.S.A. Before last week, the biggest story out of Ferguson was the case of a woman who had opened a strip club/brothel in the basement of her home. Her 16-year-old son had the job of tending bar.

    This was the environment in which police officer Darren Wilson shot and killed teenager Michael Brown…

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  41. If Wilson’s orbital socket was fractured that wasn’t noticed till later.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  42. #40. Could be out of fear. From what I’ve read though “Corroborating” the officer’s version of events includes all actions up until the fatal shots.

    I have not heard of any witnesses claiming the officer was rushed. The closest I’ve seen was the audio of the guy saying “He kept coming toward him.”

    I just think it is a significant difference if the suspect turned and walked vs turned and ran toward the officer. It could have happened so quickly that it doesn’t make much of a difference, but given the “josie” account, there was time to taunt the officer too.

    Certainly, if the officer was punched by the suspect, that would practically justify lethal force given the suspect’s size. Which I don’t understand why the PD wouldn’t release that information early on. (They released vague info.)

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  43. Dejectedhead (a094a6) — 8/19/2014 @ 10:52 am

    I just think it is a significant difference if the suspect turned and walked vs turned and ran toward the officer. It could have happened so quickly that it doesn’t make much of a difference, but given the “josie” account, there was time to taunt the officer too.

    The officer’s version would seem to be when he says freeze, first they stop, then MB says you won’t shoot – then he rushes at him, and when he does shoot, he continues.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  44. #41. The only issue I have with the “Josie” account is that it seems entirely self-serving. An account given by a 3rd hand party, friend of the officer. Someone that would not be liable for giving a false narrative since they could always claim “It was what I was told.”

    Not saying it isn’t true…just saying it may be self-serving, like the original Dorian Johnson statements.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  45. #45. If Mike Brown rushed him like that it would most certainly be a justified shooting. I’m not concerned about the number of times he was shot.

    There should be witnesses to that rush though, since the incident was already well under way.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  46. “I have not heard of any witnesses claiming the officer was rushed.”

    Dejectedhead – That is exactly my point! All you hear is witnesses contradicting themselves about what they saw talking to reporters. We have seen no official statements. If as reported the police have a dozen witnesses supporting the police version of events and those witnesses lived in the area of Ferguson where the shooting took place do you believe they would want to be publicly identified or would be likely to be giving interviews to reporters with all the peaceful protesting going on?

    Seriously?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  47. One of the autopsy photos show a shot to the palm of the hand. A palm faces backward if you are walking or running

    The diagram show the entry wound being in the tissue to which the thumb is appended.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  48. 48. This is just a report (3 days later) of the most imnportant part of “Josie” call (omitting how he first spotted them and how she came to know it – from his significant other back on Sunday before the controversy started)

    What we get here that’s new is a transcript.

    It would seem like Darren Wilson spent some time just watching them in the street when they defied his instructions to get out of the middle of the street.

    He had called for backup and wasn’t going to do anything till the backup arrived.

    That certainly seems to argue 1-man police cars.

    …and then he gets the call in that there was a strong-arm robbery, and they give the description, and he’s looking at them, and they’ve got something in their hands that looks like it could be the cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them, tries to get out of his car,

    For jaywalking, you need backup, but when it’s apprendening someone who just committed a robbery, it’s immediate action!!

    This is so crazy, it has to be true.

    …[Police Officer Darren Wilson tries to get out of his car] they slam his door shut violently. He said Michael did.

    And then he opened his car again and tried to get out, and as he’s trying to stand up Michael just bum-rushes him, just shoves him back into the car, punching him in the face.

    Then Darren grabs for his gun, Michael grabs the gun. At one point he got the gun totally turned against his hip, and Darren shoves it away, and the gun goes off.

    Michael takes off with his friend. They get to be about 35 feet away, and Darren’s first protocol is to pursue, so he stands up and yells, “Freeze!”

    Michael and his friend turn around, and Michael starts taunting him, “Oh, what are you going to do about it? You’re not going to shoot me.”

    And then he says all the sudden he just started to bum rush him. He just started coming at him full speed, and so he just started shooting, and he just kept coming. So he really thinks he was on something, because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. And then so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two to three feet in front of the officer.

    You would think tyhat after saying: “”Oh, what are you going to do about it? You’re not going to shoot me,” Michael would start slowly walking away.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  49. #49. I do not believe those witnesses would want to be identified given the current situation.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  50. #51. That transcript just seems implausible to me. Bum rushed, punched, grabs for gun, gun goes off, runs away, turns and taunts (after grabbing the officer’s gun?), then bum rushes again.

    Seems so blunt about how justified the officer would be to have shot him that I find it suspect.

    Dejectedhead (a094a6)

  51. Was it mayor Daly who said shoot the looters?

    mg (31009b)

  52. here you go MD:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/

    narciso (ee1f88) — 8/19/2014 @ 10:07 am

    Gateway Pundit isn’t exactly known for fact-checking stories that fit their worldview. I’d wait until you hear from someone reputable before speculating further.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  53. #34… agreed.

    Breaking News! AGOTUS Eric Holder has ordered an autopsy on his own credibility.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  54. Thanks for the comments, it seems there are multiple sources about the orbital facture.
    I agree and was trying to say what daleyrocks said, that at the moment who knows what the story is.

    I heard the DOJ wanted to/did suppress the robbery film.

    Would the police deliberately not release their version, waiting for people who might have witnessed it give their versions first? Let all the versions be laid on the table and see which ones can be rejected as fallacious and which need to be considered?
    I give very little confidence in the “Josie” report, other than that seems to be all we have from the police side.

    Did you folks hear that members of the Oakland New Black Panther Party were there in Ferguson stirring things up? I bet crossing state lines to instigate a riot is some kind of fed offense,
    oh, wait, that would mean Eric Holder prosecuting NBBP, I guess that is not likely.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  55. Thanks for the comments, it seems there are multiple sources about the orbital facture.

    Do you have one source that doesn’t reference the Gateway Pundit? I looked before I posted my comment above, and that’s all I found.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  56. MD,

    ITs sad that the first instinct of the DOJ wasn’t to get to the truth, but to control the narrative.

    Unbelievable

    So many young black men murdered and all the attention on this? How many did we lose in the ten days of Ferguson? 50? a 100?

    EPWJ (598909)

  57. carlitos, I took the wealth of responses by various people, including people I have general confidence in, and did not myself take it farther than that,
    so if we turn out to be wrong, please let us know

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  58. Jim Hoft is the stupidest man on the internet, so hedge your bets. He’s the guy who posted a photo of a guy who wasn’t Michael Brown pointing a gun at a camera last Thursday. Anyway, I’ll keep up with this later and comment here.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  59. The reporter who contends her off-the-record sources have said twelve witnesses have confirmed aspects of Darren Wilson’s statement would be Christine Byers of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. That’s MSM, not starboard blogosphere.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  60. Gateway Pundit isn’t exactly known for fact-checking stories that fit their worldview.

    His stock-in-trade is commentary, not reporting. One of the problems with his site is the comment board. He attracts a lot of the slush pile for some reason.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  61. FYI, by our gracious host’s journalistic standards, Jim Hoft fails, because his original post does not contain a correction that the photo was removed. It went down the memory hole.

    Here’s the screencap from the original post.

    http://imgur.com/rk5n5n4

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  62. “Jim Hoft is the stupidest man on the internet, so hedge your bets.”

    carlitos – I disagree. Matty Yglesias beats him hands down.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. He attracts a lot of the slush pile for some reason.

    It couldn’t be the race-baiting things he writes, eh?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  64. The reporter who contends her off-the-record sources have said twelve witnesses have confirmed aspects of Darren Wilson’s statement would be Christine Byers of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. That’s MSM, not starboard blogosphere.

    Please find me Christine Byers saying the words “orbital fracture.” My google-fu is good, and I got nothing.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  65. “I’d wait until you hear from someone reputable before speculating further.”

    carlitos – ThinkProgress, Crooks n’ Liars, TMZ?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. “Please find me Christine Byers saying the words “orbital fracture.” My google-fu is good, and I got nothing.”

    carlitos – That did not come from her. You are confused.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  67. #5 EPWJ asked, Could those injuries be possible in a shooting of a charging suspect?

    (Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I left to accompany an old friend to a doctor’s appt.)

    To have a bullet enter the top of the head, exit the right eye socket, and continue on till it struck the right clavicle would, it seems to me, require Brown to have his head well below the horizontal with his chin on his chest and his nose practically scraping the roadbed.

    Without access to the results of the initial autopsy, such an extreme position seems so far fetched as to require suspension of the higher faculties or recourse to the mysteries of magic bullets. In order to define the eye socket wound as one of exit, Big Mike would have had to get his head below the level of Wilson’s knee. I see no reason to entertain the notion especially in the face of Dr Baden’s identification of the eye-socket wound as an entry wound.

    ropelight (b5fb75)

  68. So the video tape, belies what they

    narciso (ee1f88)

  69. told the New Yorker, much of what Bosman and Blinder of the Times reported initially (that tape, the first piece of evidence, was suppressed by the DOJ, the autopsy belies what much of the ‘narrative’ has been,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  70. Okay so far

    11.47am Brown chokes clerk steal cigars
    11.51am Call goes to 911
    11.53am Dispatcher sends out warning
    11.57am Wilson tells Brown to get out of street
    11.58am Dispatch send out BOLO on Brown
    11.59am Wilson responds to BOLO
    12.00PM Brown breaks Wilsons eye socket Wilson badly injured
    12.01pm Brown charges Wilson, Wilson fires six rounds killing Brown
    12.10pm – first lie reported to twitter

    EPWJ (598909)

  71. among other evidence, I would expect would be the tape of the call out to Wilson, and the interactions up unitl he gets out of the car

    narciso (ee1f88)

  72. Don’t expect any exculpatory evidence favorable to Officer Wilson to surface without a fight. The black art of stonewalling and withholding evidence has reached the level of SOP when it comes to anything the DoJ is involved in since Obama swore to faithfully execute the laws. The AG was held in contempt of Congress for that very same betrayal of his responsibilities, and Obama himself claimed Executive Privilege to evade responsibility for Fast-n-Furious. And we’re still waiting for the survivors of Benghazi to tell their stories in an open forum free from White House retaliation.

    In this case Missouri Democrat officials in cahoots with Eric Holder’s DoJ, are determined to withhold or suppress information favorable to Officer Wilson. Note how quickly Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson was shoved aside and replaced with the State Highway Patrol’s Ron Johnson, an official who reports to Democrat Governor Jay Nixon, immediately after Jackson refused to keep the robbery video hidden.

    Note too that St Louis prosecutor Robert McColloch denounced Governor Nixon’s interference calling it illegal and shameless. Immediately the calls for a special prosecutor erupted in an attempt to sideline McColloch because he wouldn’t roll over and play dirty.

    Where is the incident report? Where are the results from the initial autopsy. Why did it take so long to hear about the nature and extent of Wilson’s injury. Why haven’t we heard from Officer Wilson himself.

    The arrogant and hypocritical Eric Holder is demanding to know why information is being selectively released, when he’s the poster boy for that particular abuse of office.

    ropelight (b5fb75)

  73. the poor frightened boy was clearly running away backwards as fast as he could

    the evidence is pretty clear

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  74. In this case Missouri Democrat officials in cahoots with Eric Holder’s DoJ, are determined to withhold or suppress information favorable to Officer Wilson.

    The St. Louis County Democratic Party is currently suffering internal fissures. The county executive was recently knocked-off in a primary and is due to leave office at the end of the year; one of his vociferous opponents was Robert McCullough, the public prosecutor. McCullough has also slammed the governor for putting the state troopers in charge. The state attorney-general has been explicit that the local public prosecutor cannot be forcibly displaced by any other authority. Ben Crump and Eric Holder cannot have this case pitched to a special prosecutor in thrall to the grievance industry unless they can blackmail McCullough. Any attempt to suppress evidence has to evade obstacles that McCullough, the municipal police chief, and officials in the county police department with a back channel to McCullough and the newspapers put in their way. There are officers in the county police department with a pipeline to the Post-Dispatch crime beat reporter who’s on Twitter.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  75. Please find me Christine Byers saying the words “orbital fracture.”

    Different issue.

    It couldn’t be the race-baiting things he writes, eh?

    I’ve not noticed that. The alt-right commentariat is anti-semitic and racialist by default (with some exceptions), as well as disdainful of the military, the Republican Party, and the conventional right (operating under the illusion that they’re the smart kids in the room); Steve Sailer attracts a great many poisonous characters. Hoft does too, though he’s a fairly conventional Republican. You see a great deal less of that here and other loci of the conventional right…

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  76. Remember… MO Gov. Jay Nixon is a DEMOCRAT, a member of the party of Bull Conner.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. well Hoft does not suffer fools, and lord there are so many out there, given credibility they don’t deserve,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  78. shlt just got real… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFomUgbqUFc&sns=em

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  79. 77. Evidence is not being suppressed, but it is being kept from the public.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  80. ropelight (b5fb75) — 8/19/2014 @ 1:30 pm

    Why haven’t we heard from Officer Wilson himself.

    I suppose his lawyer told him not to say anything.

    It would be very easy for Eric Holder to insist that information not be released to the public. He’s conducting his own investigation too. This is SOP for investigations.
    .

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  81. 72. narciso (ee1f88) — 8/19/2014 @ 12:45 pm

    the autopsy belies what much of the ‘narrative’ has been,

    And Sharpton, Crump and company just go and say that the latest information proves they were right.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  82. When Hamas broke the ceasefire previously, they only used short range rockets or mortars.

    Now it’s back to full scale war crimes. (the firing of these rockets is not war, but a war crime)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  83. ropelight (b5fb75) — 8/19/2014 @ 1:30 pm

    Where is the incident report? Where are the results from the initial autopsy.

    We had problems getting things public in the George Zimmerman case, too. The Sanford police department even took down the 911 call.

    So I suppose people should save and copy and repost any official documents that become public.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  84. Hold teh sammich hold the lettuce Sammalanche it won’t upset us

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  85. I didn’t know this before, maybe others do; Gateway Pundit is based in St. Louis, so it is reasonable that he might have a local contact.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  86. I do find it interesting that everything that I can find on the Web (though my skills aren’t to be envied) cite the Gateway Pundit piece,
    though I did see a quote from a CNN report that the officer had a “swollen face” and had visited the ER.

    Of other note, I see this:
    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/65412
    tweets from the local reporter who said there were witnesses backing Wilson is now on leave from the paper

    Is it possible that the hospital and the police are refusing to confirm to other news people what was leaked, but wasn’t supposed to be?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  87. carlitos – That did not come from her. You are confused.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2014 @ 12:28 pm

    Thanks. My bad.

    Hoft does not suffer fools

    LOL

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  88. MD – St. Louis is “Gateway to the West” and the arch is the gateway arch.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  89. I guess I missed the obvious, carlitos.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  90. Me too, for a long time. When you click a page and it’s all about the jihad and what-not, it’s not so obvious to look for the tiny arch in their photo montage and think about the name.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  91. “Jim Hoft is the stupidest man on the internet”

    carlitos – When it’s Wonkette, Media Matterz and the bad Charles Johnson making those accusations, I think the finger must be pointing at yourself to actually believe them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  92. carlitos – Why not blame the Koch Brothers?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  93. So let me get this straight–sometimes people say stupid stuff on the internet? Get out!!!

    elissa (360489)

  94. what finger I don’t get it

    this is all premature anyway til we get next week’s autopsy and the one from the week after that

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  95. DOJ is keeping its own autopsy under wraps.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  96. Feel free to ignore reality, mr. daley. Hoft is a race-baiting, borderline conspiracy theorist. He wrote about birth certificates, he interprets photos to find secret hand gestures, he thinks that Obama’s a secret muslim or whatever, and he’s cited anti-semitic and white power websites before. He’s a tool. As with any tool, use it carefully.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  97. at the end we have to average all the autopsies together

    then we’ll know

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  98. I’m trying to figure out how to average an autopsy. Despite watching most of CSI Miami, I got nothin’.

    Maybe I take my sunglasses off and say – “No, it’s a mean.”

    For anyone interested, Pussy Riot is playing in Chicago on Aug. 12.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  99. Brown’s body was 35 feet from the police car.

    I think that’s about four seconds away at a start-up running speed.

    An athlete will run 40 yards in about 5 secs. 35feet, i.e. ~10 yards, will only take a sec or two.

    ras (835f53)

  100. aug 12 is past.

    elissa (360489)

  101. carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/19/2014 @ 4:06 pm
    Thanks for the kindness. Yes, I always look at the fellow holding up the bloody T-shirt and wonder if that is the notorious “green helmet guy”, and don’t bother to look further.

    elissa (360489) — 8/19/2014 @ 4:16 pm
    yes, I’ve read that Abraham Lincoln said that the only problem with quotes on the Internet is that they are not always true

    ras (835f53) — 8/19/2014 @ 4:29 pm
    I’m sure some know this better than me, but I guess police are taught that if you have your gun in your holster and a person with a knife is coming at you, there needs to be at least 21 feet of distance (some say 30?) between you or you will not get your shot off in time.
    In this instance, I don’t think we have any idea of where Wilson was supposed to be when he fired in relation to the police car.
    And I heard it pointed out, as I think has been mentioned, that however many bullet holes there are is not necessarily the same as how many bullets struck him. For example, if he was bull rushing Wilson and pumping his arms running, one bullet could have gone through his hand and then into the arm.
    I’ve heard several stories say that Wilson’s gun went off in the car at the initial tussle with Brown. I guess one can say Wilson did that as part of a cover up, otherwise a slug in the car fired from the hip would be good evidence of a struggle,
    but who knows.
    I’ve heard talk that this will add to the idea of having all officers have a body camera on.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  102. An athlete will run

    He’s was a big heavy guy and he wasn’t competing.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  103. Art Deco (ee8de5) — 8/19/2014 @ 4:52 pm
    Well, he may have been a big heavy guy, but he didn’t look too fat,
    and if he was charging a police office, that was sort of competing
    and if he was high on something in addition to marijuana, like PCP, then all bets are off.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  104. Hoft did fall for the birth certificate rubbish, though he hasn’t written about it in several years.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  105. I still do not know if Obama had something to hide or it was just a brilliant counter-counter intelligence move to let people think there was something, knowing the press would never make it a problem for him.
    There is still that thing about his publicist in the early 90′s putting out he was from Kenya in the build up to a book that never came out.
    I don’t know enough about Holt to have an opinion, so I officially have no opinion on his reliability.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  106. August 12th? That explains so much.

    on a side note, Missouri don’t show me shat.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  107. carlitos

    Calling Jim Hoft the dimmest (dumbest) guy on the internet is just a LGF (little green footballs daily stalker talking point post) given to you by the craziest guy on the internet (Charles Johnson).
    carlitos, don’t fall for the cesspool of hate (LGF) that pretends to be morally superior because they hope Dim Jim dies in a fire and other stuff, while badmouthing Him for comments left at his site. The irony of it all is rather ironic.

    I thought you were smarter than that carlitos?

    MSL (5f601f)

  108. Eric Raymond: This picture tells a shooting story

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  109. I have to say I agree with the demonstrators and lefty pundits who speak of a war on black men. There IS one and it’s being conducted by other black men.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  110. One last thought, we have been told he had marijuana in his system

    As far as I know there is no test that can distinguish between marijuana smoked twenty minutes ago and marijuana smoked twenty days ago.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  111. some act in good faith
    some act under the cover
    of darkness like rats

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  112. As yet we have not seen Dorian Johnson’s official police statement, which may differ significantly from what he has been telling reporters.

    Has he made one? Last I heard he was not making himself available to the police.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  113. they fool nobody
    ain’t nothin’ but a party
    a license to steal

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  114. One of the autopsy photos show a shot to the palm of the hand. A palm faces backward if you are walking or running. It only faces forward if your hands are in the air. What sense would it make to be charging, head nearly parallel to the ground, and having your hands in the air?

    Um, every sense in the world. He wasn’t running a race, he was charging Wilson, with the intention of hitting him. The most natural pose for this would be with his arms outstretched.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  115. That being said, when you have multiple sources stating the same series of events early on, those should be taken into account.

    That depends on whether they gave their accounts before or after hearing Brown’s accomplice Johnson give the party line.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  116. For anyone who wants tickets the PR concert’s Sept. 12.

    elissa (360489)

  117. For jaywalking, you need backup, but when it’s apprendening someone who just committed a robbery, it’s immediate action!!

    If a jaywalker gets away, big deal. He’s not going to put himself at risk over something like that. If they get away before backup comes, they get away. But if robbers are on the loose, it’s his duty to arrest them.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  118. I didn’t know this before, maybe others do; Gateway Pundit is based in St. Louis

    Hence the name.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  119. Hoft did fall for the birth certificate rubbish

    Fall for it, or wonder, as a lot of us did, what 0bama was hiding. There had to be a reason why he refused to let anyone see it for so long. I suspected his reason might be simply to mess with people’s heads, and that seems to have been true. But it was a fair question to ask.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  120. There is still that thing about his publicist in the early 90′s putting out he was from Kenya in the build up to a book that never came out.

    Blurbs are never reliable. They write whatever they think will sell better. Having a young writer be Kenyan made him more interesting, and thus more saleable. The only relevance of the blurb is to show that speculation about a possible Kenyan birth was not utterly without foundation, and wasn’t made up out of some sort of racism.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  121. Md the 21ft rule is invoked when you have to unholster your weapon and then fire. It seems like the cop already had his weapon drawn, which would shorten the response time. I googled it and found out it is called the Tueller Drill. I was taught in CCW that another reponse would be to back up as you draw so as to buy yourself some time.

    Gazzer (3584f6)

  122. Millhouse I read at the time that jacket blurbs are almost always sent to the author for approval. I think it suited TFG to appear more worldly than he actually was/is.

    Gazzer (3584f6)

  123. Governor Jay Nixon (D) asked today for a “vigorous prosecution” and “justice for the Brown family”. How about justice, period, and a vigorous investigation?!?!

    Irresponsible, dumbass Democrat.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  124. But it was a fair question to ask.

    He was contending that the long form eventually released was an obvious fake. He drank the Kool-Aid.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  125. I don’t know what it is, but every time I read the latest on this case and the comments I have this overwhelming urge to shout, “Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.”

    Impossible in this day and age of the 24-hour news cycle, but whatever happened to waiting for all the evidence to come out? Naive, I know. Sorry.

    Jeff Lebowski (5e0c1f)

  126. More advice for aspiring petty criminals: “If you make the police come get you, they bringin’ an ass-whuppin with them.”

    mojo (00b01f)

  127. Once a bullet enters the body, its path is haphazard due to all the variables:
    Entry speed, entry mass, how much mass it sheds and how fast it sheds it, what does it hit – bone or organs or both.
    Guys have been hit in the upper chest and had the bullet come out somewhere on their leg.
    Anybody who can predict, prior to impact, what the path of a bullet will be through a human body should take up alchemy, because they’re a wizard.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  128. askeptic, you see that sort of behavior in rifle cartridges like the .223 (5.56mm) more than you do in pistol cartridges like the 9mm or .45acp. The rifle bullets are longer, so they have greater propensity to tumble after they hit flesh & bone. Pistol bullets are much closer to a “square” construction (length equals width)so tumbling usually doesn’t produce the same sort of effects. Usually. The one certainty of ballistics is that there are no certainties, just likelihoods.

    I’m sure someone who has handled firearms for a living like Steve57 could enlighten us here, but that’s just my inexpert opinion.

    Russ from Winterset (830aac)

  129. Iif an object moving at the time of impact, this changes the trahector

    narciso (ee1f88)

  130. Ding!

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  131. “Hoft is a race-baiting, borderline conspiracy theorist. He wrote about birth certificates, he interprets photos to find secret hand gestures, he thinks that Obama’s a secret muslim or whatever, and he’s cited anti-semitic and white power websites before.”

    carlitos – Just because some of the more deranged lefty sites say it does not make it true. I’ve read the site for 10 years and call BS on that description. You have become way more patellar reflex in evaluating material based on its source rather than content lately, a very very progressive trait which is not good to see.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  132. I think Hoft is sometimes wound a little too tight but his heart is in the right place.

    Gazzer (3584f6)

  133. “Hoft did fall for the birth certificate rubbish”

    carlitos – You claim the entire right fell for the birth certificate rubbish if anybody asked a question. Open your good eye.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  134. You’ve confused ‘carlitos’ with me. Hoft should not have invested in the birth certificate discourse and he certainly should not have doubled-down when the long-form was released. It was an absolute waste of attention to fancy that two impecunious college students were going to engage in expensive and time-consuming international travel so Barack Obama, Sr. could introduce Ann Dunham to his wife (while persuading Stanley Dunham to put an ad in the Honolulu paper announcing the birth of his grandson at the Kapiolani Hospital).

    You have all these people making clowns of themselves clamoring for his birth certificate and they’re not asking for his academic transcripts (which I would imagine are embarrassing, as were Albert Gore’s and John Kerry’s) or his medical records. Richard Gephardt was so disgusted with how pushy the newspapers were for confidential files in 1988 that he attempted to form a cartel with the other candidates to send them a collective buzz off. Didn’t work well. Obama’s been able to get away with quite a bit and officials at the schools he attended have evidently signed out the michrofiches and locked them in a safe.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  135. At the end of the day, Ann Dunham was born in Kansas. That makes little Barack an America, no matter where he was hatched.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  136. Except no one has found a copy of said transcripts, or one of his thesis, or any of a dozen other documents, Maraniss certainly didn’t. the birth certificate thing was foolish, but then again there is practically no curiosity about what drives him, Charles Johnson, the good one found the tie to Derrick Bell, years after Jodi Cantor, broached the subject

    narciso (ee1f88)

  137. Millhouse I read at the time that jacket blurbs are almost always sent to the author for approval.

    That may be so, and he may have approved it, but so what? Blurbs should never be assumed to be true. It’s a medium where lying is considered acceptable, just as in poker.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  138. Marsh was, by my reckoning, just the ninth player to follow a century with a pair in the next Test of a series. He was, by anyone’s reckoning, the second to do so against South Africa this season, after Khurram Manzoor’s first Test hero to second Test zero zero effort for Pakistan in the UAE last October. The previous player to plummet from bat waggling three figure glory straight into a twin duck twofold debacle was Adam Gilchrist,ASME BPVC III NF 2010, who came in at 99 for 5 in Mumbai in 2001

    TIA-422 PDF (060678)

  139. Look, mate, that was six months ago. Clearly SOS has got some issues, but haven’t you got any more recent news to cover your spam?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  140. “Hoft should not have invested in the birth certificate discourse and he certainly should not have doubled-down when the long-form was released.”

    Art Deco – Printing what Donald Trump said about Obama when Trump was threatening to run for president in 2011 is not investing in either Trump or the birth certificate discourse. Trump is a loon but he was driving liberals nuts by saying crap others were unwilling to say and it actually got aired or printed because of his notoriety, which made the White House even more crazy. It was pure entertainment to see somebody smack Obama around publicly.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  141. Printing what Donald Trump said about Obama when Trump was threatening to run for president in 2011 is not investing in either Trump or the birth certificate discourse.

    Hoft was stating his own opinion.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  142. Except no one has found a copy of said transcripts,

    I’ll wager you that’s because deans and superordinate administrators made a point of signing out the hard copy and locking it away so work-study students and hourly employees could not get their hands on it; this precaution was not taken re the other candidates, so the media were able to get hold of the transcripts, perhaps with some checkbook journalism. The one distinction between Bush on the one hand and Kerry and Gore on the other might be the identity of the leaker. It would not surprise me in the least if it came from senior administrators in Bush’s case and from far down in the apparat in Kerry’s case and Gore’s case. Given that Kerry trusted the Boston Globe to rummage through his Navy personnel files, given that they published nothing on the contents, (and given the bogus arguments Tom Oliphant of the Globe offered to ignore the Swift Boat Veterans, I’m actually surprised that there were any news reports on his mediocre record at Yale and BC (except, of course, to spin what was being said in the New York Post or on Fox News).

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  143. or one of his thesis,

    Most undergraduates do not produce a senior thesis. I’ve never heard of such a thing re law schools. Mooch wrote a thesis. I think that thesis was salted away. The Los Angeles Times has also been sitting on videotapes of a talk given by Rashid Khalidi that Obama attended. Again, Democratic operatives with bylines.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  144. A simple maintenance run of one cycle of vinegar nike shoes followed by three runs of clear nike shoes every thirty days is all that’s required to keep your BrewStation brewed nike shoes tasting fresh. Seems my lessons always happened after the paying customers had disembarked and it I got in for my turn. It countains 96 of the world’s 109 peaks of over 7317 m (24,000 ft). Although you will need to look at how higher their software costs are, you will need to not thoroughly dwell on it. You can

    celine handbags outlet UK (4e0980)

  145. daleyrocks, I used to read Gateway Pundit too, maybe for 5 years. I stopped when I realized they were going a bit nutso on Obama and muslims, and using questionable sourcing. I certainly wasn’t quoting Charles Johnson; I read that bit about Hoft being the ‘dumbest guy on the internet’ at Gawker or Wonkette or someplace.

    He certainly went gung-ho about the birther stuff. If ‘just asking questions’ is a defense, then I guess you would defend 9/11 truthers and moon-landing deniers too.

    He certainly posted a photo of a murderer in Oregon and identified him as Michael Brown, then deleted it without a correction, after it went viral in the right-o-sphere. I haven’t seen anyone here comment on that.

    He cites the Daily Mail as a source, which is a fail for me.

    He’s a global warming denier.

    As for the race-baiting, have a look here and decide for yourself.

    Has anyone found a corroborating source for the “orbital fracture” on officer Wilson? It’s been fascinating for me to watch it go from Gateway Pundit to the blogosphere to the NY Post, but have any real news sources reported it? I note that the NY Post report also cites the Daily Mail, LOL. Hoft photoshopped the CT Scan of some jamoke at the University of Iowa and posted it so folks might think that it was actually officer Wilson.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  146. Carlitos, your link is to a four year old blog post which consists of a series of complaints that Jim Hoft linked to videos posted by people who had posted disagreeable material on other topics on other occasions. Pretty thin gruel.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  147. “He’s a global warming denier.”

    Jeez, I may have to start reading him.

    Mike_K (90dfdc)

  148. Carlitos if it’s not too intrusive, are you willing or able to contemplate any difference on the science spectrum between a global warming “denier” (however you are defining that) and any person who is a skeptic regarding the data being used for climate study; i.e., how and what data was collected, how the data is being trended and graphed, and who may be leery of some/all the conclusions and prognostications that are being pushed about the causes and “inevitable” results of AGW using said data?

    elissa (41e608)

  149. are you willing or able to contemplate any difference on the science spectrum between a global warming “denier” … and any person who is a skeptic regarding the data

    elissa, at this point I’m not. It’s too far gone for me to find that “just asking questions” is legitimate inquiry. The anti-science POV is being pushed by the same people who told us that cigarettes weren’t harmful to your health. It’s being funded by fossil-fuel interests and politicians being funded by them. I just can’t ignore that. If you look 4-5 years back on this site, you’ll find comments by me regarding “urban heat islands” and other nonsense. I was wrong. I think that the political “solutions” to AGW are a worthy topic of discussion, from Al Gore’s profit-grab on carbon exchanges to emission limits on emerging markets. We can argue about the solutions, but at this point, we can’t honestly argue about the problem.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  150. Also, thanks for reminding me that September 12 is not August 12. I’ll be at Riot Fest checking out some interesting acts.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  151. carlitos, AGW is based on theory and computer models; the data does not support it.
    In science, when experiments do not confirm a hypothesis, the hypothesis should be modified or dropped altogether.
    The natural experiment of observation over the last 15 years has not confirmed the computer models.
    I believe even the last IPCC report (the actual scientific part, not the policy maker summary) clearly stated that the observed warming has been significantly less than predicted.
    The American Physical Society appointed several “deniers”/”skeptics” to the panel that was to review and revise the organization’s position statement (including from MIT and UAB). I am looking forward to see what comes of it. (Perhaps this is in response to several prominent physicists, including at least 1 Nobel winner, withdrawing from the organization in protest to the last position statement).

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  152. Third time posting:

    He (Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit) certainly posted a photo of a murderer in Oregon and identified him as Michael Brown, then deleted it without a correction, after it went viral in the right-o-sphere. I haven’t seen anyone here comment on that.

    Will anyone who finds Mr. Hoft credible comment on this? Anyone? Bueller?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  153. And I believe that cigarettes are harmful and I own no stock in oil or coal companies.
    And I did do a senior thesis on organic synthesis and enzyme kinetics related to cancer research, FWIW.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  154. Thank you for your honest answer, Carlitos. Me? When I hear some supposed scientist utter the words “the science is settled”–then I immediately know that it’s not about science– at all. Because science is really never “settled”, is it? And in my view, smart and responsible people are perfectly in rights to argue that imposing “solutions” is suspect and potentially even dangerous when we, as part of a geopolitical world, a global economy, and inhabitants of the solar system, cannot possibly know what “the problem” will actually be 25-50-100-300 years down the road.

    elissa (41e608)

  155. the data does not support it…….

    I believe even the last IPCC report (the actual scientific part, not the policy maker summary) clearly stated that the observed warming has been significantly less than predicted.

    If you can elaborate and show your sources, I’ll try to reply later, MD.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  156. some supposed scientist

    Do you see what you did there? Why is a scientist a “supposed” scientist? This is called “poisoning the well.”

    As I said, I agree with you that we can argue about the solutions. For me, nuclear power is kind of a no-brainer. Einstein solved all of our energy needs for millenia 70 years ago. Thanks bro!

    I would disagree with you regarding 25-50 years, because we are going to lose a few islands and thousands of species in that time. But I’m happy to disagree, as long as we work towards a solution.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  157. I’ll look it up later, posts at PowerLine and WUWT displayed graphs using IPCC data (or same sources, I guess, as IPCC) clearly demonstrated this. I’ll try to get back to it tonight for your interest, I’ve got things I need to get to during daylight hours.

    I do find it curious that no other independent source has either confirmed or denied the Gateway Pundit article,
    as I also find it curious that the reporter who tweeted about witnesses confirming Wilson’s account is now on leave from the newspaper.

    With Holder involved and the Dem. governor of the state saying they will get justice for Brown it seems some are eager to not be “Treyvoned” this time around.

    It is a very, very sad comment on the state of affairs when high public officials are so eager to prostitute themselves for the sake of popularity and power. I guess there was a good reason that bearing false witness is on the same list with murder.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  158. 28. 116.

    As yet we have not seen Dorian Johnson’s official police statement, which may differ significantly from what he has been telling reporters…

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/19/2014 @ 5:42 pm

    Has he made one?

    He has, maybe only one time (both to the FBI and the St. Louis police)

    His lawyer, former St. Louis mayor, Freeman Bosley, Jr. has described his statement maybe more than once. (To MSNBC and it would also seem he talked to the New York Times.)

    The New York Times quotes his lawyer, and notes that this version of events is contrary to that of several witnesses.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us/shooting-accounts-differ-as-holder-schedules-visit.html

    A lawyer for Mr. Johnson said that his client was interviewed by the F.B.I. and the St. Louis County police last week for nearly four hours. In that interview, Mr. Johnson admitted that he and Mr. Brown had stolen cigarillos from the store, said the lawyer, Freeman R. Bosley Jr.

    Mr. Bosley said that the officer told the two to get off the street, adding that Mr. Johnson told the officer that he lived nearby. They got into a bit of a verbal dispute with the officer about whether walking in the street constituted a crime, Mr. Bosley said.

    Well, maybe if Mr. Bosley had already been his lawyer, and been standing there next to him, they might argued that way. I kind of doubt that they were that polite, and legalistic. His lawyer probably would have told him, he might have a defense against an accusation of jaywalking -hasps there was no ordinance against this, and if someone is just there for a short time they might be crossing the street, etc. but not against the policeman directing traffic.

    It’s all downhill from the admission of the robbery. The account get more in variance with reality as it continues:

    Contrary to what several witnesses have told law enforcement officials, Mr. Bosley said that the officer then reached out of the window with his left hand and grabbed Mr. Brown by the throat.

    He said Mr. Brown pushed him off, and the officer then grabbed Mr. Brown’s shirt.

    “My client sees the officer pull a gun and hears him say, ‘I’ll shoot you’ — then ‘pow!’ there was a shot,” Mr. Bosley said, referring to the one that apparently went off in the car. “He did not describe a scuffle. It was more of a scuffle for him to get away.”

    Asked if Mr. Brown had punched the officer, Mr. Bosley said that Mr. Johnson “did not observe that.”

    The New York Times then notes:

    However, law enforcement officials say witnesses and forensic analysis have shown that Officer Wilson did sustain an injury during the struggle in the car.

    Nothing about what kind of an injury in the New York Times.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  159. I would disagree with you regarding 25-50 years, because we are going to lose a few islands and thousands of species in that time.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/20/2014 @ 7:39 am

    But carlitos, that’s what they said 25 years ago.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  160. Thomas Friedman, got the Sabra and Shatila story wrong, Eichenwald misrepresented the diversity exercise to tar Texaco, Woodward, per Holland’s bio of Felt, misrepresented the Watergate grand jury,
    what the Dog Trainer gets right on any given day, is within one standard deviation,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  161. Here’s more:

    The F.B.I., Mr. Bosley said, pressed Mr. Johnson to say how high Mr. Brown’s hands were. Mr. Johnson said that his hands were not that high, and that one was lower than the other, because he appeared to be “favoring it,” the lawyer said.

    So Dorian Johnson was being vague in one or more places in his account. I guess he didn’t know what the autopsy would show.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  162. well i’m not surprised considering what Risen and Rosen have gone through, the whole witchhunt of the AP, with the Saudi double agent, similarly the leak inquiry into Stuixtnet, which tarnished General Cartright,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  163. But carlitos, that’s what they said 25 years ago.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 8/20/2014 @ 7:43 am

    Yes. And they were right.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  164. narciso needs an editor. Their writing is nearly imcomprehensible.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  165. Lol. incomprehensible.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  166. Johnson also claimed that Brown did not move toward the officer before the fatal shots were fired.

    The New York Times I think, is a bit biased or giving credibility in the wrong places. For instance. seems to think it established that Officer Wilson fired on them as they were running away.

    They talked to a few named sources.

    A man who lives nearby, Michael T. Brady, said in an interview that he saw the initial altercation in the patrol car, although he struggled to see exactly what was happening.

    “It was something strange,” said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. “Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can’t say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn’t look right.”

    Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.

    Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled.

    Now that is not quite consistent with what “Josie” related third hand, because if he had already fired, it would seem very illogical for Michael Brown to then say to Officer Wilson that he’s not going to fire at him. So, we have a little problem there.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  167. Another person who spoke on the record to the New York Times has this:

    James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown’s hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.

    “I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him,” Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. “The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.”

    Is that true?

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  168. 169. 170. narciso’s writing is shorthand. You either have to know a lot or use Google six or seven times to understand it.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  169. I have to say I agree with the demonstrators and lefty pundits who speak of a war on black men. There IS one and it’s being conducted by other black men.

    And notice how many of the race hustlers, poverty pimps, academic-ivory-tower liberals and the left in general sort of shrug that off, or are certainly far, far less indignant about that than about a few controversial incidents of a black perp or punk being shot by a cop, particularly a white one.

    Merely another indication that people who believe their compassion is pure and timeless are in reality just the opposite of that.

    Another thing: Black America is the most liberal, by far, of any sector of this society’s population. Is all that liberalism reflected in such a population’s kinder and gentler culture and truly humane socio-economic standing? Hmmm.

    Mark (14a4db)

  170. It’s the Crump team, all over again, Frances Robles was brought in, as this was the gig that got her
    Times deal, the CRS was active in obscuring the tape, Johnson’s part in the robbery, was hidden, the whole Journolist mocked Chief Jackson when he mentioned Wilson’s injuries,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  171. Just one example:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/james-risen-petition-press-freedom-groups_n_5681482.html

    now the fact that operation, uncovered a Clinton era snafu, that enabled the Iranian nuclear program

    you can add how Rosen and his family, were hounded by a leak inquiry, into a finding that was perfectly obvious, General Cartwright was singled out as the source for Sanger and Broad, when clearly
    other high administration officials were involved.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  172. Do you see what YOU did (and overlooked) there, Carlitos? I purposely used the word “supposed” with “scientist”, not to poison the well, but to highlight that no serious, competent, and open-minded-to-where-the-research-leads-scientist (including the research of others) would evah publicly or privately utter the words “the science is settled”.

    And speaking only for myself, I have never organized my day, or gained or firmed up my opinions, conclusions and beliefs from Jim Hoft’s blog, and in fact rarely read it, so don’t worry about me over that.

    elissa (41e608)

  173. Elissa, I try not to argue religion with people. That is what anything involving the environment has become.

    Simon Jester (e04c55)

  174. 169. “narciso needs an editor”

    And carlititos, a ghost author, among sundry other remedial necessities.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  175. Do you see what YOU did (and overlooked) there, Carlitos? I purposely used the word “supposed” with “scientist”, not to poison the well, but to highlight that no serious, competent, and open-minded-to-where-the-research-leads-scientist (including the research of others) would evah publicly or privately utter the words “the science is settled”.

    By your standard, the science wouldn’t be settled on gravity or evolution. They are just theories, after all. We can keep asking questions, but at some point, we might listen to the answers.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  176. 169. “narciso needs an editor”

    And carlititos, a ghost author, among sundry other remedial necessities.

    carlititos? Don’t throw any rocks in your glass house, bro.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  177. 178. I know, Simon. But I keep trying to communicate with Carlitos I think because I used to find his comments (even when I disagreed with him or thought he was missing a crucial fact) to be challenging and worth considering and thinking about. But as daleyrocks pointed out yesterday, Carlitos’ posts have seemed to change recently as far as their impact or depth of discussion. His comments seem more knee jerk, more personal, more accusatory, less nuanced and certainly less open to others’ views and why they might have them, than in the past. I miss the old Carlitos who in my opinion brought value and insight to this blog, rather than the new Carlitos who frequently denegrates it along with many of its commenters.

    elissa (41e608)

  178. the paucity of evidence, in this case, is really quite extraordinary, the video tape, was the first piece, the dispatch tape has to be next, recall Wilson was trying to clear the traffic, at the time,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  179. 180. “By your standard, the science wouldn’t be settled on gravity or evolution.”

    Uh, dumbazz, science is never settled. We assume, e.g., the graviton has a spin of two and is comprised of two antisymmetric components, but have yet to observe a first particle interaction, in part, because the strength of interaction is 10^-39 that of the electromagnetic interaction we are familiar with.

    Re: Evolution, we are still beating about the bushes for the genesis of DNA.

    Whatever you know of science was a universal distribution requirement satisfied by the end of the average grad’s sophomore year.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  180. Carlitos– yes the theory of evolution over millions of years is accepted by most. But the understanding of how, and where, and in what stages, and at what speed, and through what external forces (asteroids for example) that evolution occurred among plants and animals is constantly changing as new research is produced and new specimens are uncovered. Do you think the evolution knowledge of Charles Darwin was “settled”?

    elissa (41e608)

  181. Things are now at the point where all that Carlititos needs in order to see how badly he’s been had by the AGW crowd is a thermometer. A thermometer and either some ability to recall what was said a ten and twenty years ago, or a willingness to do the research via laptop or ipad. But I’m sure he’s comforted knowing that upstanding guys like Al Gore are looking after him. And the concern over AGW has been redirected into “climate change”, which can be anything. Again, very comforting for someone needing a mommie.

    bobathome (5ccbd8)

  182. I apologize for digressing so far from the autopsy results discussion.

    elissa (41e608)

  183. It seems like you want to quibble about the word “settled.” I don’t understand why.

    In a world where the dissemination of information was orders of magnitude slower than today, scientists largely accepted Darwin’s Origin of Species within months.

    http://www.aboutdarwin.com/timeline/time_07.html#0030

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  184. 182. As is her custom, ‘lissa is over-generous. Carlititos’ recent posts merely reveal an undeveloped intelligence unfettered by any sophistication of disciplined accomplishment.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  185. For those interested, I’m ignoring gary gulrud. Please don’t mistake my lack of response as acquiescence or agreement.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  186. 188. I gather by Evolution you mean some distillation, viz.:

    Darwin’s book introduced the scientific theory that populations evolve over the course of generations through a process of natural selection. It presented a body of evidence that the diversity of life arose by common descent through a branching pattern of evolution.

    Yes, it is possible, for Science, as a far-flung cooperative group of people to accept such a paradigmatic position over a matter of months.

    OTOH Al Gore had not invented the internet as yet and the first printing of “Origin” prolly ran to no more than 200 copies. It is a tome.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  187. 190. “Interested”

    You flatter yourself moby.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  188. Ian McAlmam’s previous book, Darwin’s armada, described how he secured consensus, in ways similar to Mann and Oppenheimer and the like,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  189. upstanding guys like Al Gore

    Al Gore has now sued Al Jazeera for cheating him out of money.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/business/media/al-gore-sues-al-jazeera-over-current-tv-deal.html?_r=0

    Mr. Gore and Mr. Hyatt filed the case in the Delaware Court of Chancery in Wilmington. Few other details are known, as the complaint has been sealed by the court, but Mr. Gore and the other selling shareholders have petitioned to make the case public.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  190. Well, the issue of evidence is interesting. I’m trained as a scientist, and have loved it all my life. What has happened, over and over again throughout history, is people using science to promote a particular point of view, political thought, ethical concept, etc. Think back to how eugenics was viewed (and in particular by the founder of Planned Parenthood, but that is a different discussion). Ideas involving evolution have been used by Marxists and free-market capitalists to support their points of view.

    But the three most important words in science are “I don’t know.” Borrowing from Mark Twain, people get in trouble not because of what they don’t know, but what they believe to be true that isn’t. And the universe is wide and deep, and filled with wonders much larger than our puny little brains…let alone our distasteful politics.

    With climate science, I have pretty much given up discussing it with people. As I have said, many many times, if the computer models that are used to predict dire future consequences are true, they should be “back predictable.” By which I mean, you should be able to plug in past carbon dioxide values, and get observed historical climate patterns.

    It does not work. More accurately, I have never seen anyone use the models in a back predictive fashion.

    When challenged, some climate scientists will reply that there are multipliers and “forcing events.” Maybe so, but why do they always, always work in the same direction: to agree with the initial conclusion?

    Freeman Dyson is awfully smart, and I trust his opinion. He doesn’t say that global warming isn’t happening. He says that the computer models don’t work, and people are really discussing politics. Sea levels have been higher than today, and lower than today. But that doesn’t matter. I think it comes back to the perceived evil of technical civilization. Of course, the people saying that are often listening to music on their iPhone, and bragging about their new Prius, and take vacations to Europe, and…well, you get the picture. Generally, folks want other people to change their ways, much like our political lords and masters.

    Me? I would rather use nuclear power than burn organic molecules to generate energy. But notice that fracking produces MUCH cleaner, more carbon neutral results than oil or coal. And yet—fracking is also eeevvviiiillll.

    No, this is a religion of sorts. I had a friend, an English professor, insist to me that “Rethuglicans” are “stupid” and “ignorant of science.” When I asked about his own science background, he had one class in high school many decades before. I asked him how he could say things like that, when he lacked the science background himself. He told me (and I’m not kidding) that he trusted NPR and the New York Times. I told him that really, these discussions were not about science, but politics. He no longer speaks to me, which is too bad.

    This all reminds me very much of the “Nuclear Winter” nonsense back in the 1980s. The climate models were screwy then, too (and guess who was involved in that one, too?). But if you opposed them, you were somehow in favor of nuclear war and anti-science. Sigh.

    Religion. This is a Golden Calf of the Left, to which all must bow or be called a heretic or worse. It’s something that many folks, Right and Left, fall into too easily.

    As for science, authority is the enemy of science. The key to science, as always, is the ability to make predictive models. That is the only way one can be sure of something. Not what one hopes for, but what one observes.

    Anyway, I don’t actually like fighting with people. Some folks like it. To each their own. Apologies for the sermon.

    Simon Jester (e04c55)

  191. Ian McAlmam’s previous book, Darwin’s armada, described how he secured consensus, in ways similar to Mann and Oppenheimer and the like,

    None of which speaks to whether Mr. Darwins’ ideas were right or wrong, it’s merely a thirdhand ad hominem argument by yourself.

    Do you ever read books that argue against your preconceived notions? Have you ever read Richard Dawkins’ The Greatest Show on Earth, for example?

    Also, why do you end your comments with commas? Just curious.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  192. Carlitos, Dawkins writes good books, but has gotten himself into quite a bit trouble recently with his cult of personality and inability to tolerate dissent. Which is too bad.

    Simon Jester (e04c55)

  193. “Do you ever read books that argue against your preconceived notions?”

    Hah, that’s a good one, orc. You are hilarious.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  194. Simon, thank you for taking the time to write that thoughtful comment.

    Gazzer (3584f6)

  195. Only briefly for now, will get back to carlitos’ request later.
    What Simon said.

    If one didn’t know better, one would think one could trust the NYT and NPR. Maybe there was a time one could, I don’t know. I mean, the NPR voices sound so earnest and reassuring.

    While the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect sometimes plagues me, it doesn’t when it comes to those two sources.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  196. “He certainly went gung-ho about the birther stuff. If ‘just asking questions’ is a defense, then I guess you would defend 9/11 truthers and moon-landing deniers too.”

    carlitos – Last night I searched Gateway Pundit to refresh my memory on what he did on the birth certificate stuff. I summarized it in my comment. I saw no indication in what he published in 2011 that he agreed with what Trump was saying on that issue although he would occasionally point out White House explanations were a bunch of double talk. As I said, I think the primary point was to enjoy somebody being a thorn in Obama’s side. If you have something specific to back your claim rather than something said by a lefty website, please provide it.

    I would not defend 9/11 Truthers and moon landing deniers and believe you have seen me debate with them on this site. Like global warming alarmists, they are true believers who refuse to look at hard evidence contrary to their preferred belief systems and typically of the intolerant left.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  197. Thank you, Gazzer and MD.

    Simon Jester (e04c55)

  198. If you have something specific to back your claim rather than something said by a lefty website, please provide it.

    I remember quite a bit, but I’m admittedly googling myself to refresh my memory of Gateway Pundit’s birther nonsense. It strikes a chord with me, in that it was one of the seminal events that made me lose faith in many conservative news sources. Like the Dan Rather / Bush TANG story made me lose faith in CBS, for example. The fact that he cites Pamela Geller (atlas shrugs) twice in the following links makes my stomach turn. She’s nutso.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2008/07/barack-obamas-certificate-of-live-birth/

    Atlas had tests performed on Barack Obama’s Birth Certificate that was posted at the Far Left Daily Kos blog and the Barack Obama Fight the Smears website.

    Atlas even included the dreaded RGB value heat maps test in her report.

    After an expert friend evaluated the tests, Atlas announced that the Obama certificate of live birth document posted at Daily Kos is a forgery.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2008/07/blogger-admits-obamas-birth-certificate/

    So, what is the Obama Campaign hiding?
    And, why are they promoting these forged documents?
    (This post was updated.)

    UPDATE: Pamela reports that there are new questions raised on Obama’s citizenship when he was born.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2009/06/its-has-begun-obamas-kenyan-birth/

    Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate was recently posted for sale on eBay.
    Unfortunately, the internet auction website deleted the item listing after it was posted.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  199. Simon Jester let me jump on the bandwagon, too, in saying how well I think your #195 comes across. It does not read sermon-y to me. It does read as an informed observation on a topic (science) in which you are both educated and experienced.

    elissa (41e608)

  200. Thank you, elissa. I don’t play well with others, I’m afraid, so I am glad that particular bit came across well for you. I’m very old fashioned, and our whole crude and reflexive society makes me ill quite often. But I am pleased to find folks who share values with me from time to time. Much appreciated.

    So much information seems reflexive these days, and relatively thought free—Teh Narrative and the snark seem most important to folks. Global warming is one such issue. Try discussing GMOs with folks on the Left, for another. Or vaccinations with many people.

    But thanks for listening, again.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  201. First,carlitos, there are two things wrong with the nat geo article:
    1) it includes the widely disproved polar bear saga
    2) like many, many, many other science articles, they start out with the assumption that there is global warming, and then whatever they find, they claim global warming caused it. Maybe it did, if there is, maybe it didn’t. Not long ago there was some article/claim about a glacier in Antarctica that was melting and sliding into the ocean, other info indicates that actually there is volcanic action under the ocean floor that is heating things up from below.

    Here is one link that shows the disparity between the predictions and the reality (note, the graph of observed data shows a rise through the last several years because the line is drawn from the starting date, even though there is no increase the last several years)
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/04/10/the-great-credibility-gap-yawns-ever-wider/#more-107311

    This article points out that no matter what the summary may say, the actual report itself decreased their estimates of possible temperature change:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/ipcc-silently-slashes-its-global-warming-predictions-in-the-ar5-final-draft/

    This article goes through several claims within the report and shows data that contradicts:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/03/the-2013-ipcc-ar5-report-facts-vs-fictions/#more-95072

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  202. well there’s that, MD, plus a real Irwin Allen type scenario that Nat Geo aired, armies of locusts,
    invading Europe, a scirocco sweeping Las Vegas away, it made the Day after Tomorrow, (based on an Art Bell script) tame by comparison,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  203. here’s a little thing,
    one can pick a discrete finding and easily slant it to “prove” global warming, but when examined it really doesn’t:
    http://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2014/05/21/lying-accelerates-at-the-nyt/

    This, along with the fact that regional weather changes don’t necessarily mean anything in the global picture, I don’t pay attention to claims about this glacier in the Himalayas or that ocean temperature there, etc.

    In a lab one can control variables and more clearly discern a cause-effect relationship. Observing a complicated and interrelated system it really is much harder to show a causal link, but that doesn’t keep people from claiming it.

    In my experience, docs who will scrutinize and doubt articles in the NEJM or JAMA will assume what the NYT or NPR says is true without question. (Need an emoticon for scratching one’s head).

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  204. People, even educated ones, are just increasingly intellectually lazy I think, Doc. It’s so much easier and quicker for them to read an article where someone else has supposedly done the thinking and drawn the conclusions for them. Ezra, Matty, and their Voxsplain videos are banking on this intellectual laziness on the part of others in order to sell their product.

    elissa (41e608)

  205. Has [Dorian Johnson] made one [a statement to the police]?

    He has, maybe only one time (both to the FBI and the St. Louis police)

    His lawyer, former St. Louis mayor, Freeman Bosley, Jr. has described his statement maybe more than once. (To MSNBC and it would also seem he talked to the New York Times.)

    And you put any credence in what he says? You are aware, aren’t you, that he’s halfway to being disbarred?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  206. I would disagree with you regarding 25-50 years, because we are going to lose a few islands and thousands of species in that time.

    Garbage. The sea level in the Pacific is not rising, and most of the islands in Tuvalu and Kiribati are growing rather than shrinking. And the figures on species extinction are completely bogus and always have been. There has never been any evidence for them at all.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  207. But carlitos, that’s what they said 25 years ago.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 8/20/2014 @ 7:43 am

    Yes. And they were right.

    Really? Which islands have we lost? The article you linked to about species supposedly in danger is garbage. Polar bear numbers are increasing. Not only are the penguins fine, but Antarctic ice is growing, not shrinking. And coral survived the Medieval Warm Period, which was warmer than now, so how can it be in trouble now?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  208. This article is mostly about Emperor penguins, but there is some information about Adélie penguins as well. It appears that their problem is not that the ice is shrinking but that it’s growing, and their colonies are now too far from the sea, so they’re abandoning them and moving closer to the sea.

    Adelies are much more nimble than Emperors and can easily clamber up rock slopes that Emperors can not. So Emperors breed almost always on flat fast-ice but Adelies nest later in the year when the land is likely free of snow. However unlike the Emperor marathoners, Adelies will abandon a colony if they are forced to walk over sea ice for more than 3 kilometers. Heavy ice years are detrimental.

    A heavy wind event compressed the sea ice against the peninsula’s coast and causing the greatest observed breeding failure as many Adelies abandon the site. Most interesting, is those same winds travelled up and over the peninsula causing a foehn storm on the eastern side associated with the collapse of the Larsen Ice Shelf.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  209. Has [Dorian Johnson] made one [a statement to the police]?

    He has, maybe only one time (both to the FBI and the St. Louis police)

    His lawyer, former St. Louis mayor, Freeman Bosley, Jr. has described his statement maybe more than once. (To MSNBC and it would also seem he talked to the New York Times.)

    210. Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/21/2014 @ 12:14 am

    And you put any credence in what he says?

    It’s probably correct that Dorian Johnson was interviewed (only one time) for four hours in ajoint interview by the St. Louis police and the FBI.

    Now do I put credence. Well, I don’t exactly think Dorian Johnson was arguing the law of jaywalking with Police Office Darren Wilson.

    I think the lawyer has to worry abouy his own cr3dibility (at least among reporters covering this case, and too many might have otehr sources, so the interview really did take place, and its probably approxomiately what he said, not taht what he said was the truth, or that the lawyer believes it was the truth.

    You are aware, aren’t you, that he’s halfway to being disbarred?

    No.

    Of course, that’s the sort of thing that would be omitted from ma wikipedia article about a living person. It does have:

    Bosley’s term was colored by corruption scandals. Crime increased throughout north St. Louis city and his popularity plummeted. He was defeated by Clarence Harmon in his bid for re-election in 1997. In 2001, when Bosley ran for mayor in the Democratic Primary, he was defeated again by a wide margin, this time by Francis Slay.

    So, everybody should know he’s not to be trusted. But we’d know taht anyway from the very fact hes representing Dorian Wilson/

    I think claiming an interview took place that didn’t would make the case for disbarment against him worse, even though that might not be against the code of “ethics” lawyers have, so he’s probably sticking to the facts there.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  210. Flagging carlitos,
    I replied at #206, 208

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  211. flagging carlitos
    time for tire change and re-fuel
    no time to run hot!

    Colonel Haiku (82c1e5)

  212. I remember quite a bit, but I’m admittedly googling myself to refresh my memory of Gateway Pundit’s birther nonsense. It strikes a chord with me, in that it was one of the seminal events that made me lose faith in many conservative news sources.

    But your pangs of respect for and confidence in AGW makes the reliability of your bulls*** antenna rather suspicious, if not laughable.

    At least those in doubt over Obama’s birthplace can point to the propaganda fueled by the person at the heart of the controversy itself, since the official biography of Obama — vetted by his literary agent in Chicago and presumably by himself too — described his place of birth as Kenya.

    Mark (14a4db)

  213. “Not only are the penguins fine”

    Dayum… that is one fine penguin!

    Colonel Haiku (82c1e5)

  214. You are aware, aren’t you, that he’s halfway to being disbarred?

    No.

    Of course, that’s the sort of thing that would be omitted from a wikipedia article about a living person.

    Indeed it would, but google him and you’ll find the current proceedings against him, which are missing from WP because of [[WP:BLP]].

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  215. the official biography of Obama — vetted by his literary agent in Chicago and presumably by himself too — described his place of birth as Kenya.

    A blurb is not an official biography by any stretch of the imagination. It is completely unreliable, and not expected to be reliable. It is perfectly acceptable in the industry to include deliberate lies in a blurb.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  216. Obama did not correct his literary agent’s bio of him until 2007.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  217. “The fact that he cites Pamela Geller (atlas shrugs) twice in the following links makes my stomach turn. She’s nutso.”

    carlitos – The fact that CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN and MSNBC rip and read so many talking points from outfits from Media Matters and ThinkProgress helped me lose faith with them. They’re nutso.

    The question is, whoever posted those BC’s is whether they were fakes? Valid questions. As your excerpts indicate, Geller hired experts to analyze them. It’s not Geller’s work so no use smearing her. As you recall, the behavior of the Obama campaign gave the distinct aroma of hiding things by not disclosing information.

    Birtherism is just one of your hot button issues, along with global warming, SSM and a few other. I don’t believe Hoft was providing any original analysis on the birther issue, merely reporting on the findings of others as you pointed out above. A minor player.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  218. It is completely unreliable, and not expected to be reliable. It is perfectly acceptable in the industry to include deliberate lies in a blurb.

    In a blurb or on the back flap of the dust jacket? And do you mean bald lies or salesman’s razzle-dazzle? News to me about industry standards.

    It would not surprise me to learn Obama was a yarn-puller in his youth, and put one over on the belly editor and the line editor (who had no incentive to check).

    At least those in doubt over Obama’s birthplace can point to the propaganda fueled by the person at the heart of the controversy itself, since the official biography of Obama — vetted by his literary agent in Chicago and presumably by himself too — described his place of birth as Kenya.

    Aye, they can. They can also remark that both parents were students at a provincial state school, that the father was on some foundation dole or institutional dole, that the mother was the daughter of a furniture salesman and a bank employee of no special distinction, that ordinary Americans hardly ever traveled outside of the United States and Canada in 1961 except in the course of military service, that Kezia Obama likely wasn’t itching to meet some shag of her husband’s (most especially one with whom he had an irregular and invalid marriage and a bastard child to boot), that Stanley Dunham and his wife unaccountably put an dd in the Honolulu paper the week of 4 August 1961 announcing the birth of their grandson at Kapiolani Hospital, and that no ruses would have been necessary because that child was due American citizenship according to the principal of jus sanguinis (as specified in a federal statute enacted in 1952, which was more restrictive than previous practice).

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  219. In a blurb or on the back flap of the dust jacket?

    They’re the same thing.

    And do you mean bald lies or salesman’s razzle-dazzle?

    Bald lies, if they will help sell the book. Nobody cares.

    News to me about industry standards.

    There is no official standard; this is just what everyone does, and therefore what everyone expects of others. Blurbs are not fact-checked, and are not expected to be accurate.

    Remember that the same blurb also claimed that his father was the Kenyan finance minister, which everyone agrees was a bald-faced lie.

    They can also remark …

    Tom Maguire, at the time this was going on, pointed out the sheer unlikelihood of a Kenyan birth, but at the same time wondered what he could possibly be covering up if not that, and why the grandparents would go to such lengths to fake a US birth if there wasn’t one. He came up with a plausible suggestion that would explain all of this: At the time of 0bama’s brith his mother was a student in Seattle. Suppose she went up to Canada, and unexpectedly gave birth there. That makes a lot more sense than Kenya. And why lie about it? Because they anticipated the possibility of a custody battle, and thought that if the baby was born in a Commonwealth country the father might be able to get the case heard in a Kenyan court rather than an American one, so they made sure he was reported as having been born in their home state.

    Of course this was all before he finally did release the birth certificate, and it turned out that there was nothing there to hide, he’d just been refusing to release it in order to mess with people’s heads.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  220. “In a blurb or on the back flap of the dust jacket?”

    My understanding is that was an author blurb, not a reviewer blurb. If there are any standards at all, author blurbs are supposed to bear some relationship to reality. Reviewer blurbs do not and do not even guaranty the reviewers have read the book.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  221. There are no standards, and author blurbs say whatever sounds good, just like reviewer blurbs.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  222. I’m pretty sure it was from his publicist associated with the publisher, and if that is supposed to have the veracity of an article in the NYT about a Republican presidential candidate, well, might as well ignore it. Might as well ignore a lot of things.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  223. So I could write a book and have an impressive jacket cover?
    I can see it now:
    MD wrestles alligators with his bare hand, one arm tied behind his back.
    Aristotle, Plato, Socrates? Mental midgets in comparison.
    Sword play? MD uses his left foot!
    Do not trifle with him!!!

    Uh. back to reality.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  224. Yep. And half the jacket covers you see bear about as much relation to reality as that.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  225. “There are no standards, and author blurbs say whatever sounds good, just like reviewer blurbs.”

    Milhouse – I bow before your unsubstantiated expertise.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  226. At the time of 0bama’s brith his mother was a student in Seattle

    No. She enrolled at the University of Washington at the end of the summer of 1961, and stayed one year (or two?). While we’re at it, what would she have been doing in Vancouver? It was strongly atypical for students to bring cars with them to school when I was in college twenty years after that. She had a child and her family was not well-heeled. Not plausible even in the absence of a long-form.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  227. Donald Trump produced his own original birth certificate from 1946 only to be told that’s not what matters, and in fact has no probative value any more.. (Obama’s family probably lost his)

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  228. Neil Abercrombie, who just lost a primary for re-election as Governor of Hawaii, and for years was a member of Congress, knew both of Obama’s parents personally. He didn’t witness his birth, but he came close. he had a hard time believing this was a serious issue.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  229. Art Deco (ee8de5) — 8/21/2014 @ 9:45 am

    Stanley Dunham and his wife unaccountably put an dd in the Honolulu paper the week of 4 August 1961 announcing the birth of their grandson at Kapiolani Hospital

    Actually, the state of Hawaii did that. They listed every birth in the state.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  230. It was strongly atypical for students to bring cars with them to school when I was in college twenty years after that. (1961)

    Depends on the college, some high school kids had cars in the early ’60s. I was one of them, ’57 chevy Bel Air, 2 door hard top, big engine, powerglide transmission, white over turquoise. Paid $1,400 and the dealer threw in a new set of tires. Gas was 29.9/gal and the girls thought I got taller and better looking overnight. Guys at subsequent class reunions remember the car even if they can’t recall me.

    ropelight (04f5fa)

  231. Milhouse – I bow before your unsubstantiated expertise.

    You can ask anyone in the publishing biz, they’ll tell you exactly what I did.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  232. “You can ask anyone in the publishing biz, they’ll tell you exactly what I did.”

    Milhouse – No thank you. I believe they are more likely to agree with me. Where is it written that there are no rules?

    Apart from obviously satirical works or potentially works written under a pseudonym, do you have any examples of author blurbs bearing no resemblance to reality?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  233. knew both of Obama’s parents personally.

    The two lived together as a couple for no more than seven months (some sources suggest < 2.5 months) and Ann Dunham was off to Seattle within weeks of that child's birth. I doubt one ever cared very much about the other. They were careless people, Tom and Daisy…

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  234. While we’re at it, what would she have been doing in Vancouver?

    Visiting friends, perhaps? Or just a weekend trip?

    It was strongly atypical for students to bring cars with them to school when I was in college twenty years after that.

    Now you’re really reaching. She could have traveled in her car, or in someone else’s, or taken a bus. Unlike flying to Kenya, which in those days was a major undertaking, driving to Canada would have been a trivial matter. And a Canada birth could have explained an attempt to cover it up, e.g. by registering a home birth in Hawaii. Of course we now know that the certificate says he was born at a hospital, but we didn’t know that then.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  235. Milhouse – No thank you. I believe they are more likely to agree with me. Where is it written that there are no rules?

    By definition the absence of rules would not be writen anywhere! If there were rules, they’d be written.

    Proof that this particular blurb was not fact-checked at all is right in front your eyes, in the form of the claim that Barack Sr was a Kenyan finance minister. Nobody claims that was true. So why would any of the rest of it be?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  236. Neil Abercrombie knew both of Obama’s parents personally.

    So he says. How closely does he claim to have known them? They weren’t together for very long, after all.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  237. No, I’m not reaching, and the ordinarily sensible Maguire was speculating. The Statute of Westminster rendered the four dominions sovereign in 1931, so the notion that BO Sr. could bring an action in a Kenyan court seems wild. That aside, he was in the United States until 1964 and did not contest Ann Dunham’s divorce action; again, Occam’s razor suggests he cared little about them. That aside, BOjr’s citizenship would have been unimpaired had he been born in a hospital in Vancouver. (And she wasn’t living in Seattle at the time in any case).

    While we are on the subject, in the little town in which I used to live, newspaper birth notices actually were reported by the local hospital (presented as such in the paper, but presumably routed through the county clerk).

    I would not doubt Abercrombie was in BO Sr’s circle of friends.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  238. “Proof that this particular blurb was not fact-checked at all is right in front your eyes, in the form of the claim that Barack Sr was a Kenyan finance minister. Nobody claims that was true.”

    Milhouse – Who supplied the blurb? Would not it be racist to question that person’s veracity? The reason why the blurb became a news item when it was discovered is exactly because of my position, that it is supposed to bear some relationship to reality, not because an author can make up whatever history they want about themselves sell books. Think about it.

    Are you seriously saying there are no such things as unwritten rules?

    I think you’re just blustering about blurbs and pulling stuff out of your butt again.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  239. Keep in mind that Barack Obama Sr. had an offer of a graduate fellowship at the New School for Social Research which would have included stipends to support his ‘wife’ and child. He turned it down.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  240. MD – thanks for the thoughtful replies. Busy work day, and busy social night. Another time, perhaps.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  241. busy social night. Another time, perhaps.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/21/2014 @ 3:31 pm

    Well, I see where I stand on your list of priorities!!!
    Hmmph!!
    ;-)

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  242. SF: Neil Abercrombie knew both of Obama’s parents personally.

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/21/2014 @ 2:58 pm

    So he says. How closely does he claim to have known them? They weren’t together for very long, after all.

    There was a group of (left-wing) students at the University of Hawaii of which all three of them were members.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ba0b7)

  243. carlitos @168, that article you linked to is insanely wrong. Here are two examples.

    Polar bear. The large predator’s story is well known: The Arctic sea ice on which the animals hunt is progressively disappearing during the summer. Sea ice is forming later in the fall and disappearing earlier in the spring. “As the Arctic sea ice retreats, polar bears have to exploit alternative food sources, such as on land,” the scientists said, and some hungry polar bears have turned to goose eggs. But it’s not the best alternative, Steven Amstrup, chief scientist for Polar Bears International, noted in a previous story. “Some media reports have suggested that this might mean polar bears could just come ashore and eat terrestrial foods and somehow do fine without the sea ice,” Amstrup said. “We have absolutely no evidence that they have the ability to do this.” (Read “On Thin Ice” in National Geographic magazine.)

    First off they don’t hunt on the ice during the Summer. Why? Because the sea mammals they depend on primarily pinnipeds such as walrus or seals aren’t there. They’re on islands or other land sancuaries, when they need to or want to get out of the water.

    http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/life/mammals7.htm

    Specifically the oceanography dept.

    Polar bears travel over the whole year within individual home ranges. Home range size depends on access to food, mates and dens. They also prefer to travel on sea ice; therefore, their ranges are limited by the amount of sea ice that forms in the winter.

    Sea ice always recedes in the Summer. Why would walrus or seals haul out on the receding sea ice where they’d be crowded together presumably for the polar bears’ shopping convenience when they could swim far out to sea and then use now exposed islands or other havens and get away from the polar bears?

    Similarly polar bears have been known to kill whales such as norwhal. During the winter, when the norwhal have to use the the few open breathing holes in the ice or drown. Then they are crowded together for the polar bears’ shopping convenience, because the bears know there are only a few places they can go to breath and if they stake out one of those places sooner or later the whales will show up. But during the summer the whales can breath anywhere because it’s open water.

    Pinnipeds and cetaceans make long-distance seasonal migrations to rookeries (breeding grounds) or warm-water birthing grounds. Reproduction and migration are often timed with seasonal changes in the availability of food for the adults and young. Many arctic pinnipeds migrate with the movement of food, but also with the seasonal movement of the ice pack.

    Again, why would seals and walruses that deliver young during the warm months stay on the receding pack ice where they’re easier for polar bears to find since there’s less of it.

    Two other points. The very idea that polar bears are in trouble is based upon even worse science than the bad science global warming was based on.

    http://polarbearscience.com/2014/05/30/iucn-polar-bear-specialist-group-says-its-global-population-estimate-was-a-qualified-guess/

    Last week (May 22), I received an unsolicited email from Dr. Dag Vongraven, the current chairman of the IUCN Polar Bear Specialist Group (PBSG).

    Consequently, there is either no, or only rudimentary, knowledge to support guesses about the possible abundance of polar bears in approximately half the areas they occupy. Thus, the range given for total global population should be viewed with great caution as it cannot be used to assess population trend over the long term.” [my bold]

    …So, the global estimates were “…simply a qualified guess given to satisfy public demand” and according to this statement, were never meant to be considered scientific estimates, despite what they were called, the scientific group that issued them, and how they were used (see footnote below).

    All this glosses over what I think is a critical point: none of these ‘global population estimates’ (from 2001 onward) came anywhere close to being estimates of the actual world population size of polar bears (regardless of how scientifically inaccurate they might have been) — rather, they were estimates of only the subpopulations that Arctic biologists have tried to count.

    …In other words, rather than assigning a “simple, qualified guess” for these subpopulations that have not been formally counted as well as those that have been counted (generating a total figure that is indeed a “global population estimate,” however inaccurate), the PBSG have been passing off their estimate of counted populations as a true global population estimate, with caveats seldom included.

    It is comical how bad the science that those suckers at NatGeo, who wrote the article you linked to, got sucked in by. But then, NatGeo is a notably unreliable source.

    Final point; the Arctic ice isn’t receding.

    http://www.isciencetimes.com/articles/6040/20130911/global-cooling-arctic-ice-cap-60-photo.htm

    Global Cooling: Arctic Ice Cap Grows 60 Percent In A Year [NASA PHOTO]

    …The evidence of global cooling and the expanding Arctic ice cap is causing climate uncertainty as many long standing beliefs on global warming have been refuted. The UN’s climate change body, the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was scheduled to begin publishing its Fifth Assessment Report, which is an extensive three-volume report on the Earth’s climate every six years. Now, the organization will hold a pre-summit in Stockholm to report later this month.

    According to leaked documents, the IPCC face a decision to make more than 1,500 changes to their assessment report…

    Melting ice in the Arctics has long been a visual indication of global warming. However, scientists are now studying mounting evidence that suggest Arctic ice levels are cyclical. According to climate historians, data indicated massive ice melts during the 1920s and 1930s, followed by a refreeze that only ended in 1979, which caused the IPCC to note that the artic ice had begun to melt. US climate expert Professor Judith Curry says the behaviour of Arctic ice over the next five years is crucial, both for understanding the climate and for future policy. “Arctic sea ice is the indicator to watch,” she said.

    Interestingly, YOUR NatGeo article contained this quote:

    “Some media reports have suggested that this might mean polar bears could just come ashore and eat terrestrial foods and somehow do fine without the sea ice,” Amstrup said. “We have absolutely no evidence that they have the ability to do this.”

    OMG, carlitos, do you know what this means? The polar bear must have already went extinct 80 or 90 years ago during those massive melts in the ’20s and ’30s because “we have absolutely no evidence they have the ability” to survive without that ice that wasn’t there back then.

    Moving on.

    • Adélie penguin. These Antarctic birds mostly live on tiny crustaceans called krill. Krill live on the undersides of ice sheets, where they find refuge and algae as food. But as Antarctic sea ice retreats, krill populations are falling—meaning that the penguins have to migrate farther to find food. Spending a lot more energy to find food makes penguins less successful at breeding and raising young, the scientists said.

    your article was from March of this year. This is what NatGeo had to say about the “retreating” Antarctic ice sheets exactly one year previously:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/130401-global-warming-antarctica-sea-ice-science-environment/

    But in Antarctica, where sea ice is more scattered and driven by wind and waves, there’s another story—ice is increasing in places.

    In September of last year, satellite data indicated that Antarctica was surrounded by the greatest area of sea ice ever recorded in the region: 7.51 million square miles (19.44 million square kilometers), according to the center.

    Is the Antarctic ice sheet retreating or is it growing. NatGeo doesn’t know, but naturally whichever way it’s going there must be a religious explanation for it so they turn to the global warming priesthood. Read the article if you must, carlitos, to bolster your faith.

    Has the Antarctic ice retreated since they were forced to admit it was growing last September? No. It was amusing when Prof. Chris Turney, climate alarmist/profiteer, of the University of New South Wales’s (Australia, for those of you from Ria Linda) Climate Research Center got stuck with his high-paying guests in the Antarctic sea ice in a boat woefully ill equipped to deal with ice just this past Antarctic summer, wasn’t it boys and girls? And why did Prof. Chris Turney, climate alarmist/profiteer charter a ship that couldn’t deal with that ice. Because as far as Prof. Chris Turney (climate alarist/profiteer) knew there wasn’t supposed to be that much ice.

    So naturally since the ice sheets aren’t shrinking but growing the climate alarmists have moved on to claim the possible collapse of the Ross ice shelf as well as large calving events are due to global warming.

    That’s not true, either.

    http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/ice-shelf-collapse-not-caused-global-warming

    As is de rigueur when such events occur, the proponents of manmade global warming will announce to all that this is a result of human CO2 emissions warming the planet. They will point out that, as the iceberg melts, it will inject millions of tons of freshwater into the southern ocean. Dust and rock fragments embedded in the glacial ice will alter the fragile marine environment when they fall into the ocean, possibly causing algal blooms. What’s more, the massive chunk of ice may block animals trying to get to their traditional feeding grounds. Surely this is yet another natural catastrophe caused by man’s poor stewardship of Earth. Or is it?

    Despite what many alarmists will say, humans had nothing to do with the PIG’s latest iceberg extravaganza. The events about to unfold on the bottom of the world are, in fact, all natural and have happened countless times before. You see, NASA researchers say this latest iceberg is part of a natural cycle seen every 10 years or so on this particular glacier.

    If you want to know why ice shelves collapse, talk to glaciologists and oceanographers. Don’t talk to climate hysterics.

    …And they were right.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/20/2014 @ 7:49 am

    No, they were wrong. Your NatGeo article isn’t just wrong it’s fiction, but I won’t keep going through it because that would take too much space. Why do you believe in fiction instead of science, carlitos?

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  244. carlitos, I responded to your post @168 with an extensive, heavily sourced (with links) fisking of two of the examples in your NatGeo article. Too extensive apparently as it’s stuck in the filter.

    Suffice it to say I was able to prove that two of those examples of species in trouble due to global warming were complete fiction.

    - the polar bear doesn’t depend on sea ice during the summer because it’s prey animals are in open water anyway.

    - the polar bear isn’t in trouble. The chairman of the International Union for the Conservation Union’s (IUCN) Polar Bear Specialist Group (PBSG) admitted in May this year that it’s global polar bear population estimates are complete garbage because they only produce estimates for areas for the portion of the bear’s range where scientists attempted to count bears. There are many more bears than thought because they never even attempted to count whole subpopulatins. The PBSG committed academic fraud because they’ve always passed off their estimates as global estimates. No caveats. Polar bear population estimates, we now know, are even more junk science than global warming.

    - The Arctic ice isn’t shrinking. It grew sixty percent in 2013 over the area it covered in 2012. The IPCC was forced to delay it’s global warming report because it had to fix 1500 errors, as reality contradicted its assumptions. The evidence is that Arctic ice shrinks and grows in cycles. And if polar bears can’t live without sea ice, they would have gone extinct back in in the 1920s and ’30s when there were massive melts.

    - The Adelaide penguin may be in trouble but it’s not due to “retreating” Antarctic ice sheets as your NatGeo article falsely asserts. In fact, when forced from their day job of writing fiction I was able to find a NatGeo article published within one year of the article you linked to with the title, “New Theory for Why Antarctic Sea Ice Is Growing.” (I’ll give you three guesses what this “new theory” is and the first two don’t count. Hint: the “new theory” explaining the expanding Antarctic ice sheets is the same theory they use to claim the same ice sheets are retreating.) Sometimes even NatGeo is forced to acknowledge reality.

    The article you linked to was garbage, carlitos.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  245. But we grew up thinking National Geographic was just as truthful as Walter Cronkite…,
    I remember the exciting theme song, watching Nat Geo specials in school even.
    What did they/do they teach in those schools anyway?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  246. I enjoyed your exchange with carlitos, Doc.

    169.

    But carlitos, that’s what they said 25 years ago.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 8/20/2014 @ 7:43 am

    Yes. And they were right.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 8/20/2014 @ 7:49 am

    I was amused to see he linked to National Geographic. An author who unfortunately passed on before his time lumped them in with what he called the “nature fakers.”

    And he was right.

    Not the “they” carlitos is referring to. “They” are wrong.

    Can you possible take a magazine that one day can write this?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/03/140331-global-warming-climate-change-ipcc-animals-science-environment/

    7 Species Hit Hard by Climate Change—Including One That’s Already Extinct

    But as Antarctic sea ice retreats, krill populations are falling—meaning that the penguins have to migrate farther to find food.

    And on another day write this?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/130401-global-warming-antarctica-sea-ice-science-environment/

    New Theory for Why Antarctic Sea Ice Is Growing

    …In September of last year, satellite data indicated that Antarctica was surrounded by the greatest area of sea ice ever recorded in the region

    And, again, there were no significant changes in the area of Antarctic sea ice between the time one article was written and the other.

    National Schizographic. Climate change is causing the Antarctic ice sheet to shrink! Climate change is causing the Antarctic ice sheet to grow! And both at the same time.

    There’s nothing climate change can’t do, if you read NatGeo. And are comfortable with cognitive dissonance. Or have amnesia, and can forget what you’re reading in NatGeo now directly contradicts what you read in NatGeo earlier.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  247. *Can you possible take a magazine seriously that one day can…

    You know what’s even funnier about this? The same author, Christine Dell’Amore, wrote both articles.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  248. Milhouse – Who supplied the blurb? Would not it be racist to question that person’s veracity? The reason why the blurb became a news item when it was discovered is exactly because of my position, that it is supposed to bear some relationship to reality, not because an author can make up whatever history they want about themselves sell books. Think about it.

    Are you seriously saying there are no such things as unwritten rules?

    Yes, I am saying exactly that. There are no rules, authors usually supply their own blurbs and write whatever they like, or else their agents/publicists make them up without checking with the author. I invite you to check with anyone in the publishing business. The blurb only became a “news item” on some right-wing sites of dubious rationality, because they mischaracterised it as some sort of official biography. They didn’t realise it was a blurb. As I said, the fact that it claims his father was a finance minister shows how unreliable it was.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  249. Obama’s birth certificate is as phony as a 3 dollar bill, and the controversy over his place of birth is a clever diversion to shift attention away from the identification of his father. (Look, Shiny rabbits!) Even then (and even more do now) the identity of the baby’s father had to remain concealed. It certainly isn’t the grad student from Kenya. Look at their pictures side by side, the ruse is laughable, it doesn’t begin to pass the eyeball test.

    Back then, Stanley Ann Dunham was in a fix, she was pregnant and needed a Black husband quick. There weren’t many suitable candidates in 1960 Honolulu to choose from so she struck a bargain with a foreign student she’s met at the university: if Barack Obama Sr would give his name to her baby the marriage would allow him to remain in the US and he’d be under no financial obligation to support either mother or child. Each would go their own way. They did, but subsequent events and the glare of national politics made the once tidy and inconsequential deception impossible to maintain, it had to be covered up even at the expense of an absurd fairy tale.

    So, Obama did what we’ve come to expect of him. He ignored it as long as he could, he ridiculed anyone who brought it up, he stonewalled demands for documentation, he reluctantly released an inadequate short form document, and he finally released a computerized facsimile of a birth certificate that’s an obvious forgery. The media refuses to examine it, the GOP is too cowardly to even mention the fraud, and anyone who brings it up is attacked as a racist or a nutcase.

    Yet, the questions keep coming, and one day the truth will come out.

    ropelight (236a2f)

  250. The person who has a problem about who his father is, and about his actual date of birth, is Bill Clinton. (His father got back to the United States so late that if he was born on the date he says he wsas born he would be premature, but sources he was a full term baby.

    Bill Clinton possibly changed his date of birth to escape the draft someone as close to the political machine that ran Hot Springs Arkansas in those days could have done it.

    He is the only politician in the 1980 Almanac of American Politics to have a year but no date.

    Did some people used to know a different birthday?

    Obams’s birth certificate is not phony. It’s just not an original copy dating from 1961. But such birth certificates are now legally useless.

    Sammy Finkelman (13370e)

  251. If Barack Obama’s relationship with Stanley Ann Dunham had not been real, it would have bene very starnge for him to visit her when Barack Obama Jr was 11 years old. (this was at atime when his relationships with other women had broken off and he wass trying to resume his relationshop with her, and persude her to go back with him to Kenya, which she declined to do.

    After leaving his family for Harvard, Barack Obama Sr. took up with another white American girl, and went back with her to Kenya, where she gave borth to two sons, neither of whom was Barack Obama Jr. Barack Obama Sr was sort of expelled from Harvard and did not collect his degree because of his bigamy or unconvincing stories.

    Sammy Finkelman (13370e)

  252. Simon Jester, #195 — Excellent.

    htom (412a17)

  253. Another issue with the birth certificate is that he was adopted.
    That suggests that the birth certificate on record lists Lolo Soetero as his father, and not Barack Obama, Sr.
    Clearly that would be excessively inconvenient for the narrative that he is half-African.
    And of course it would mean that birth certificate is absolutely not the “original”.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  254. @195– well done, sir.
    Re. the modelling has been run against history. Coyote has done it in the past (coyote.com,I think, but don’t quote me). IIRC, the models failed pretty consistently to predict today’s temperatures when historical data was plugged in.

    One would think that one of the first tests of the modelling would be to plug in the data from 50 or 100 years ago and see if it gave us what we are seeing today. Then again, maybe they did and got the result that Coyote did, and decided that they should keep quiet about it since their grants were up for renewal.

    Gramps, the original (d40b0b)

  255. “As I said, the fact that it claims his father was a finance minister shows how unreliable it was.”

    Milhouse – You are arguing against your own point. If what you say is true, why would anybody care if the blurb was not fact checked (your #226) or whether it was unreliable? Obviously people care. You are wrong.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  256. If you really want to talk about police murders, consider Brazil.

    I saw an article in the Wall Street Journal of Saturday/Sunday August 23/24 2014.

    In 2011, Sao Paolo, Brazil police killed one out of every 229 suspects. In Rio de janiero, the rate is even higher – four times as high. For comparison the rate in the United States, averaged over the entire country, is one out of every 31,575 peole

    Polls show people support the police – in Sao Paolo 53% agreed that a police officer committing a vigilante murder should get no jail time.

    This is probably a sign of a dysfunctional criminal justice system.

    The story was about four police officers who had just been acquitted by a jury in Sao Paolo.

    A suspected car thief was shot dead in 2012. This had been the subject of a front page Wall Street Journal story.

    This was caught by a cell phone camera. Officers were slapping and kicking 25-year old Paulo Nascimento when another police officer came and shot him at close range. Prosecutors later charged shot him again, maybe twice, while transporting him in a police cruiser to the hospital, where he died with fove billet wounds in his body.

    The defense was that the shooting caught on camera was an accidental misfire from a shoddy police weapon. And that the pther bullet wounds stemmed from a shootout with police while they were chasing him and two other people who were in a stolen Fiat, or maybe a scuffle that took place after the shooting caught on video.

    Sammy Finkelman (13370e)

  257. 211. Garbage. The sea level in the Pacific is not rising, and most of the islands in Tuvalu and Kiribati are growing rather than shrinking.

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/21/2014 @ 12:19 am

    Actually the sea level is rising. A few millimeters a year. But it’s been rising since the end of the last ice age, and it’s not rising at a faster rate since people started keeping track over a century ago. Which it should have, if the global warming alarmists had a point about man-made carbon dioxide ruining the world.

    As far as Tuvalu and Kiribati go, those island chains are made up primarily of coral atolls and coral islands. I would say exclusively, but some geologist might come along who is aware of some other type of island. Suffice it to say, there are a lot of coral islands and reefs in those chains.

    Most people, particularly global warming hysterics, aren’t aware of how coral atolls and islands work. Unlike other islands they’re living organisms. They’re always growing if the coral is healthy. They can get pretty big. Christmas Island, part of the island nation of Kiribati, has approximately 125 square miles of land area. They don’t get to high, though. Because there are forces working against the growth of coral islands, reefs, and atolls. Wind and waves.

    It is beyond amusing when global warming hysterics panic about these islands sinking because of sea rise. They can’t. As oceans rise, the coral grows taller. It can only grow so much higher over sea level because of the wind. So if the ocean level lowers, then wind knocks down what had been built up. I’ve never heard of a coral atoll or island where the highest point wasn’t anything but a mound at most just over 40 feet above sea level. It takes a pretty big coral island or atoll to have a “peak” that high. Most of the time when you pull into the lagoon and head ashore in landing craft you can see the surf breaking on the opposite side’s beach. They’re that low, and that narrow.

    Point being is that simple sea rise can’t “sink” coral islands or atolls. Their main enemies are erosion due to wind and waves. Which are always at work, whether the sea level is rising or lowering. As long as the coral is healthy, it keeps its head above water.

    What are the factors effecting coral health? Global warming alarmists are like dark age doctors who only have one prescription for everything; leeches. Which leads to ridiculous things being said. I surfed around to check a few facts before writing this, and apparently the minister for the environment in Kiribati is claiming that if the ocean temperature rises by one degree the coral will start to die. This is absurd since we know the ocean has in the past been warmer than today and it didn’t kill the coral. This is on par with global warming alarmists claiming the polar bear can’t survive if the Arctic ice cap shrinks (of course it can; it has in the past). But if what the minister is saying makes no sense scientifically it makes political sense as Kiribati is trying to develop. And by blaming other countries far away for killing coral through global warming, that shifts the focus from local factors that kill coral. Such as increased pollution and marine debris.

    Which leads me to head off another know-nothing global warming assertion at the pass. Saltwater in wells. The only source of fresh water on coral islands and atolls is a reservoir of rain water that has seeped through the soil and forms what’s called a “lens.” It floats on top of denser sea water that seeps in, obviously, from the ocean. On a lot of coral islands and reefs they’re running out of fresh water, and the water in their wells is increasingly brackish. So people, especially the islanders, blame this on leeches. Er, excuse me, global warming.

    Wrong. It’s that coral atolls and islands are poor places for development. They are fragile environments and can only support so much human activity. You’re ok with a few Polynesian settler families doing a bit of subsistence farming and fishing, along with raising some chickens and hogs. But if the population gets too large, they have too much livestock, their copra plantations get too big, people trade in their dugout canoes for outboard engines and john boats, fishing fleets start pulling in, fish processing and cold storage facilities get built, pretty soon you run out of fresh water as there’s only so much rain. And you can kill the coral.

    Even if anthropogenic global warming did exist it would have nothing to do with all of that.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  258. “Actually the sea level is rising. A few millimeters a year.”

    Steve57 – I condemn myself. I must confess that sometimes when I am swimming in the ocean I pee in the water so I contribute to rising levels.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  259. 256. …Yes, I am saying exactly that. There are no rules, authors usually supply their own blurbs and write whatever they like, or else their agents/publicists make them up without checking with the author. I invite you to check with anyone in the publishing business. The blurb only became a “news item” on some right-wing sites of dubious rationality, because they mischaracterised it as some sort of official biography. They didn’t realise it was a blurb.

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/23/2014 @ 10:38 pm

    Milhouse, I have checked with people in the publishing business. Plus several authors of all political stripes weighed in when Obama’s defenders claimed their precious didn’t know what was in his bio. Authors always know what’s in their bio. literary agents and publicists always run the bio through the author, if the author doesn’t write the bio themselves. If Obama didn’t know that his published bio said he was born in Kenya, then that means he wasn’t the author of his purported two autobiographical works. Which makes perfect sense. Barack Obama could not write a book. King Putt clearly does not have the discipline (I’m amazed that people who think he’s a brilliant writer haven’t drawn the obvious conclusion from his very public display of his complete lack of work ethic that he didn’t write those books).

    Getting back to the bio, while it’s possible a publicist or agent to write it, I do not know of a single author who doesn’t have their bio saved to a file, which they update as needed. Why? Because it’s vitally important. It isn’t just a “blurb” as you dismissively put it.

    The bio isn’t an afterthought. It is one of the critical selling points an author (particularly an unpublished author) pitches to a publisher. The strength or lack thereof of the author’s bio can determine, particularly when the manuscript is unsolicited, whether or not the book gets published at all. The real product the author is trying to sell is the author. The bio serves the same purpose for the publisher that a resume would for an employer. Everything in bio is carefully considered. Everything about the author that isn’t in the bio has been carefully weighed and measured before the author decided against including that detail in the bio. This is doubly true when the manuscript accompanying the author’s bio is purported to be the author’s autobiography. If the author’s short bio doesn’t grab the publisher’s attention and blow his or her mind, the publisher will not bother to read author’s long biography.

    Which is why your dismissive comments about it being just a “blurb” is absurdly ridiculous. I invite you to check with anyone in the business, because you clearly haven’t. As daley points out, obviously people care. As he further pointed out, you’ve demonstrated that fact yourself, Milhouse.

    If the author’s short bio was fictionalized, as was the case with Obama’s, it is fictionalized for a reason. Just as when people falsify their resumes they do so for a reason. To get the book published or to get the job. Obama was a nobody when what he passed off as his own autobiographies were published. Publishers aren’t in the business of publishing autobiographies about nobodies. Clearly by making Obama more exotic that made the book more attractive to the publisher, and the publisher thought that would make the book more attractive to the targeted book buying segment of the public. It is precisely because people do care that the author of Obama’s biography wrote that he was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.

    I was casually acquainted with an author years back in a state far away. He seemed like a decent guy over beers at the local watering hole. He wrote books about military topics. It wasn’t until afterwards when I talked to people he had interviewed that I learned he was a fraud. Many of those people wouldn’t have agreed to the interview but for the strength of his biography. They thought he handle the subject professionally. Naturally he fictionalized his biography so they along with the publisher he was pitching the manuscript to would think that. When authors falsify their biographies it is for just such a reason. The bio isn’t just a blurb, an afterthought.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  260. Barack Obama Sr was sort of expelled from Harvard and did not collect his degree because of his bigamy or unconvincing stories.

    Supposedly awarded an M.A. in 1964 and sent on his way. A certain number of doctoral candidates are ejected from the program at that point (for performance deficits &c). Judith Rich Harris (The Nurture Assumption) was ejected from the doctoral program in psychology at Harvard University in 1961 at the discretion of the department chairman (who said she ‘lacked originality’). Decades later, she was awarded an academic prize for her professional and trade writings. The letter ejecting her from the program was signed by the professor for whom the award was named. The newspaper columnist Paul Greenberg was also ejected from a doctoral program by the history faculty at Columbia University ca. 1960, after failing an oral examination. One of the examiners fell asleep during the examination and another was asking him politically loaded questions.

    if Barack Obama Sr would give his name to her baby the marriage would allow him to remain in the US

    He didn’t need a bogus marriage to Stanley Ann Dunham to remain in the United States. He had a student visa. He returned to Kenya voluntarily after 1964 even though his marriage to a different American woman would have allowed him to stay indefinitely.

    Look at their pictures side by side, the ruse is laughable, it doesn’t begin to pass the eyeball test.

    No, it does not pass muster with you because you’re bound and determined. The rest of us are not fools.

    There is no doubt that Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Sr. and Neil Abercrombie were all students at the University of Hawaii in the fall of 1960. That they met is unremarkable. That he knocked her up is less remarkable than the thesis that she was impregnated by a 55 year old on retainer at the longshoreman’s union. The birther boobs provide nothing which indicates that she or her father had ever met in the fall of 1960 (when they’d been in Hawaii a matter of months and her father was working sales at a furniture store).

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  261. “had ever met Frank Marshall Davis”.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  262. Which makes perfect sense. Barack Obama could not write a book.

    Oh for pity’s sake. What the man knows how to do is generate verbiage.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  263. “Which is why your dismissive comments about it being just a “blurb” is absurdly ridiculous.”

    Steve57 – Thanks for the second opinion. I’ve been involved in helping people get things published, editing books and actually soliciting jacket quotes in the past.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  264. So we have gone from gangster autopsies, to science, to global warming, and now to coral islands and urinating in the ocean. How did we skip volcanic islands?

    Wouldn’t the formation of the volcanic islands, essentially the same idea as putting rocks into a bucket of water cause the water level to rise by an equal volume. I recall that some Greek guy had something to say about that way back when. I had read that French Frigate Shoals and Midway are part of the Hawaiian archipelago and may have been as significant in size when they sat atop the vent that is now expanding “The Big Island” and as they rode the plate north the sea eroded them to their current size.. and will eventually swallow them. But I only know what I read in books. I wasn’t there.

    That said, what is the record for comments on a single post? As we see 300 on the horizon, would we consider that something to seriously take note of?

    Gramps, the original (d40b0b)

  265. 300 isn’t even close to a record, gramps.

    elissa (d3948b)

  266. Gramps, the original – I was merely confessing to my dastardly part in raising ocean temperatures and levels as part of the whole man-made theme.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  267. I was casually acquainted with an author years back in a state far away.

    This wouldn’t be the only author I’ve been acquainted with, if that’s not clear. I’ve been acquainted with others who’ve been published, and I’ve corresponded with more.

    I should also note that every author I’ve ever met or corresponded with stuck very close to the facts when writing their short bios, except for that one. This is particularly true for the academics who were writing within their field of expertise.

    This is an appropriate point to bring up proofing and editing. Most of the authors I’ve talked to try to get it written into the contract that all revisions to their manuscript must be subject to their approval. Even when they can’t get the contract to require that, they still proofread the publisher’s revisions for errors. Publisher’s will generally limit the amount of changes the author can make in pre-production before they’ll start charging a fee to reprint the book, the fee to be deducted from the author’s royalties. But there should be no fee for correcting any errors introduced by the publisher or the book designer themselves.

    Which, again, is why it’s impossible that Obama being born in Kenya was just some fact-checking error that slipped by everyone for 16 years. People do care. They may not care if it’s the truth, but they care very much what the bio says about the author because that sells books.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  268. that was very very interesting what you said Mr. 57 thanks for putting that together

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  269. about the islands

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  270. Gramps, I only discussed the coral atolls to observe how they are such poor candidates for economic development. And lack of economic development leads to poverty. And poverty leads to crime. And crime leads to autopsies.

    See the connection?

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  271. Steve57 (99bd31) — 8/24/2014 @ 12:56 pm

    If the author’s short bio was fictionalized, as was the case with Obama’s, it is fictionalized for a reason. Just as when people falsify their resumes they do so for a reason. To get the book published or to get the job.

    The book was originally supposed to be something about race relations. Obama, it seems, couldn’t write it, so he wrote this semi-fictionalized autobiography (Dreams of My Father) instead. That came out in 1995.

    I don’t think that business about being born in Kenya or his father having been finance minister in Kenya is in the book, but nobody was looking at his literary agent’s web site by that point.

    The publisher just wanted a book, I guess.

    Obama didn’t care about the truth, or about what people promoting him were saying.

    It is precisely because people do care that the author of Obama’s biography wrote that he was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.

    No, his literary agent did that. And she did not know the facts. Obama probably just didn’t care. Whatever works. Nobody later ever looked back and compared it to what was in the book. As I said, the book originally was not supposed to be about himself. By the time the book was published the publisher probably just wanted any book that was readable.

    The writer of that bio eventually became the head of the agency. The bio was not corrected till 2007.
    .

    Sammy Finkelman (34bf43)

  272. 271. Which makes perfect sense. Barack Obama could not write a book.

    Oh for pity’s sake. What the man knows how to do is generate verbiage.

    Art Deco (ee8de5) — 8/24/2014 @ 1:06 pm

    Precisely. Which is another way writing a book goes against Prom Queen’s nature. In addition to the obvious fact that President Endless Vacation doesn’t have the work ethic, he generates so much verbiage that he later has to generate more verbiage to explain away his previous verbiage. Like his promises about health care, and now the fact he called ISIS the J.V. team.

    He says what he needs to to get through the moment. And he knows it. He also knows he may have to say the exact opposite tomorrow to get through a different moment so he’ll have to disappear today’s verbiage.

    The last thing he wants to do is put it in writing.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  273. Steve57 (99bd31) — 8/24/2014 @ 1:21 pm

    Which, again, is why it’s impossible that Obama being born in Kenya was just some fact-checking error that slipped by everyone for 16 years.

    That was not a book blurb. That was on material the literary agent sent to publishers. There would be brief bios of all her authors. She never revised it. Which means maybe she never looked at it again, except that it got put on her website.

    It would have been strange to have that on the dust jacket when the book (which by then, was an autobiography) said nothing about it..

    Now I didn’t check to see what he says about where he was born, or what positions his father held in Kenya in the book.

    Sammy Finkelman (34bf43)

  274. One thing Barack Obama concealed (or lied about) in his 1995 book was that all of his girlfriends before Michelle were white. He invented a black one.

    Sammy Finkelman (34bf43)

  275. 281. …The book was originally supposed to be something about race relations.

    …The publisher just wanted a book, I guess.

    Sammy Finkelman (34bf43) — 8/24/2014 @ 1:39 pm

    The publisher wanted a book about race relations that people would buy. Not a book that would gather dust in warehouses. Which is exactly why it was important to falsify Obama’s bio. To convince a publisher that Obama had something to say about race relations. And being so multicultural was a selling point.

    To say nobody would know what was in Obama’s bio unless you went to his agent’s website is laughable. That’s like saying nobody would know what was in Obama’s cover letter unless you checked the agent’s website.

    Don’t you realize that the cover letter and bio always accompany the manuscript. At least initially, not after the author is under contract. But they do accompany the manuscript in order to get the contract. They are written to be read, and moreover they are written to seal the deal. They have to be compelling. Lying about being born in Kenya made Obama’s bio more compelling from the publisher’s perspective.

    It wasn’t an accident, Sammy, you’re just imagineering it was an accident.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  276. That said, what is the record for comments on a single post? As we see 300 on the horizon, would we consider that something to seriously take note of?

    Gramps,

    There were 3765 comments to this post. That is definitely our record.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  277. Publisher’s Weekly (as quoted on Amazo.com page about the book:

    Elected the first black president of the Harvard Law Review, Obama was offered a book contract, but the intellectual journey he planned to recount became instead this poignant, probing memoir of an unusual life. Born in 1961 to a white American woman and a black Kenyan student, Obama was reared in Hawaii by his mother and her parents, his father having left for further study and a return home to Africa.

    I think it avoids contradicting what his literary agent wrote.
    Publisher’s Weekly also notes he says virtually nothing about his mother.

    From Booklist:

    Obama argues with himself on almost every page of this lively autobiographical conversation. He gets you to agree with him, and then he brings in a counternarrative that seems just as convincing. Son of a white American mother and of a black Kenyan father whom he never knew, Obama grew up mainly in Hawaii. After college, he worked for three years as a community organizer on Chicago’s South Side. Then, finally, he went to Kenya, to find the world of his dead father, his “authentic” self. Will the truth set you free, Obama asks? Or will it disappoint? Both, it seems. His search for himself as a black American is rooted in the particulars of his daily life; it also reads like a wry commentary about all of us. He dismisses stereotypes of the “tragic mulatto” and then shows how much we are all caught between messy contradictions and disparate communities. He discovers that Kenya has 400 different tribes, each of them with stereotypes of the others. Obama is candid about racism and poverty and corruption, in Chicago and in Kenya. Yet he does find community and authenticity, not in any romantic cliche{‚}, but with “honest, decent men and women who have attainable ambitions and the determination to see them through.” Hazel Rochman

    Sammy Finkelman (34bf43)

  278. Incidentally, my swatting happened within hours of that post’s publication.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  279. Steve57 (99bd31) — 8/24/2014 @ 1:56 pm

    Don’t you realize that the cover letter and bio always accompany the manuscript. At least initially, not after the author is under contract. But they do accompany the manuscript in order to get the contract. They are written to be read, and moreover they are written to seal the deal.

    But only to be read by the publisher, or people in the publishing business.

    They have to be compelling. Lying about being born in Kenya made Obama’s bio more compelling from the publisher’s perspective.

    Yes.

    As Publisher’s Weekly wrote:

    Obama was offered a book contract, but the intellectual journey he planned to recount became instead this poignant, probing memoir of an unusual life.

    And I think the publisher became aware this was not consistent with the earlier bio, or at least that he didn’t expand on some of her interesting facts about him, and tried to finesse the issue. Some people maybe would know what had been – actually still was – in the literary agent’s bio.

    It wasn’t an accident, Sammy, you’re just imagineering it was an accident.

    I think the literary agent just made up “facts” that would help sell the book, or at least wrote what she thought could be the truth, maybe mixed up by Barack Obama.

    Sammy Finkelman (34bf43)

  280. “No, his literary agent did that.”

    Sammy – Think for a minute.

    Did Obama’s literary agent Google Barack Obama back then?

    No, that bio was assembled based in info supplied by Barack Obama.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  281. So, the literary agent just made it up, Sammy?

    Was his literary agent managing his 2008 campaign?

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2050983/posts

    (No longer available at The New Republic.)

    End of the Affair: Barack Obama and the Press Break Up
    July 24, 2008

    …Reporters who have covered Obama’s biography or his problems with certain voter blocs have been challenged the most aggressively. “They’re terrified of people poking around Obama’s life,” one reporter says. “The whole Obama narrative is built around this narrative that Obama and David Axelrod built, and, like all stories, it’s not entirely true. So they have to be protective of the crown jewels.” …

    Barack Obama’s public persona has always been carefully groomed and managed. And it’s always been not entirely true.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/06/young-barack-obama-in-love-david-maraniss

    Becoming Obama

    …But as the 22-year-old Columbia grad began to shape his future, he was also struggling with his identity: American or international? Black or white?

    …Obama was the central character in his letters, in a self-conscious way, with variations on the theme of his search for purpose and self-identity.

    …“Caught without a class, a structure, or tradition to support me, in a sense the choice to take a different path is made for me The only way to assuage my feelings of isolation are to absorb all the traditions [and] classes; make them mine, me theirs.”

    …But in a larger sense, in terms of his ambitions beyond family, he did not want to be constricted by narrow choices. The different path he saw for himself was to rise above the divisions of culture and society, politics and economics, and embrace something larger—embrace it all. To make a particular choice would be to limit him, he wrote in the letter to Alex, because “taken separately, they are unacceptable and untenable.”

    Here we get a sense of the perpetually juvenile President Bieber currently infesting the WH, as some things never change. He still remains the central character in every speech he makes. We see the army of straw men he deploys, rejecting not the narrow choices of culture, society, politics, and economics but the caricatures of what he imagines those to be as he knows nothing about them. These are all things that by his own admission he believes he is without. And consequently knowing nothing about them he rejects his uninformed caricatures as “unacceptable and untenable.”

    The 53 year old Prom Queen hasn’t matured one iota beyond the the 22 year old arrogant know-nothing know-it-all. When he’s not talking about the one subject he loves the most, himself, he is talking about things he knows nothing about. Healthcare, anybody? How about ISIS being the J.V. team? And he’s rejecting the arguments of anybody who disagrees with the self-styled smartest guy in the room as “unacceptable and untenable.” Even though President Ditherington SmartyMomPants can’t even understand those other arguments, as he demonstrates as he tries to talk about them but instead ends up rejecting what no one is saying as he swats away those straw men he creates before declaring his own idiotic ideas the only sane thing to do.

    But more relevant is the fact that we see the 22 y.o. BHO in the process of creating an identity for himself. That’s the one thing that never has changed. BHO’s public identity is a fable. It always has been. And like all fables, aren’t entirely true.

    And the one constant in the constantly changing fable that is BHO is BHO. Not literary agents or campaign managers.

    One of the facades he presented to the world as a young man was the international identity. As mentioned in the first paragraph of this Vanity Fair excerpt. And also as fleshed out more fully in his publisher’s bio.

    Why people can be convinced that BHO had nothing to do with that bio astounds me. BHO always had something to do with it every other time he’s changed his disguise.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  282. I am just devastated that I missed Slutwalk Chicago again yesterday because I spent the day driving son #3 to college. Now I will have to wait for next year.

    Mr. Feets, please to remind me ahead of time about this important not to miss event.

    Sigh

    kthx

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  283. it’s not to late to smash the rape culture Mr. daley you just have to find a slut and then not do any rapings on her

    I’m a do it later this afternoon for an hour or so

    baby steps

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  284. *too* late I mean

    it’s not *too* late to smash the rape culture

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  285. @275- Thanks, DR.. I was kinda thinking that…

    @274, 286… I’ll wait another 3400 comments before getting excited..

    @280- Mr57- that was informative and interesting, and the connection makes sense, if one subscribes the crime-poverty link. I tend to think that high crime rates (and ergo autopsies) are more a product of an excessive number of a$$holes in a given area. At least that has been my experience.

    Gramps, the original (d40b0b)

  286. Sad news, daley. You also missed the Asakusa Samba Carnival in Tokyo. It was yesterday.

    http://tokyocheapo.com/events/33rd-asakusa-samba-carnival/

    At Asakusa’s 33rd Asakusa Samba Carnival, you are guaranteed to see the most dazzling array of beautiful telephoto lenses that you have ever witnessed – the dancers are quite interesting too!…

    Indeed, they are interesting.

    They also aren’t humongous, rabidly angry, snarling feminists who really should put their clothes back on because despite holding up signs that say, “No, you make me a sandwich” don’t really need any more sandwiches because they’ve already shoved far too many of them down their pie holes.

    But that can be interesting, too, just in a different way.

    An opposite-end-of-the-spectrum-from-hot-chicks-in-thongs-dancing-in-the-street, train wreck, I-want-to-look-away-but-I-can’t, OMG-where’s-the-eye-bleach sort of way.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  287. 296. …@280- Mr57- that was informative and interesting, and the connection makes sense, if one subscribes the crime-poverty link.

    Gramps, the original (d40b0b) — 8/24/2014 @ 3:41 pm

    I expect that anyone who subscribes to the overly simplistic crime-poverty link probably believes in anthropogenic global warming as well.

    We have a prominent example of just such a simpleton in the WH.

    See, it’s all related! Even my discussion of Barack Obama’s false public persona. No doubt, Global Warming caused him to fabricate his biography. Which is fraud. And fraud can be a crime. And crime leads to autopsies.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  288. the patriarchy isn’t going to smash itself i don’t think mr. feets

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  289. No doubt Obama’s a yarn puller. So’s Joseph Biden. They are alike in that respect. (Come to think of it, so, intermittently, is Albert Gore).

    1. That does not mean he does not write his own copy. Produce verbiage and gaze at his navel are things he does well.

    2. The man’s 53 years old, has been married for 22 years, has raised two children, and has not generated any domestic scandals. The notion he has the mind and heart of an elderly adolescent is not serious. He has enough genuine vices for you to work with if you want to slice him up.

    3. His birth certificate is not fake; he was born in Honolulu.

    4. He was not sired by Frank Marshall Davis.

    I suspect his real problem as a late adolescent and young adult was that no one he cared to listen to could or would counsel him with prudent ideas about how to make a living and what a man with a true competence looks like, and circumstance took the two best examples away from him as his grandfather decayed in late middle age and as he was separated from his step-father. Instead, he fell into the hands of people who marketed him like a consumer product, and he was willing to be marketed. It’s amazing what you can sell. He was passed off successively as an insightful student of American social life (by various microbes in the publishing biz), as a law professor (by whichever administrators at the University of Chicago foisted him off on their law faculty), and as a public official cum political prophet (by Valerie Jarrett and David Plouffe). At the end of the day, the man’s a rusty rank-and-file lawyer with a landlord/tenant and labor practice who gives lots of gassy speeches.

    He has had a simulacrum of a vocational life rather than the real thing; same deal with Mooch, lapsed lawyer who was 17 years on the AA gravy train.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  290. …The notion he has the mind and heart of an elderly adolescent is not serious. He has enough genuine vices for you to work with if you want to slice him up.

    His rigid, ideological, and juvenile worldview is one of his very real vices. If you don’t think it is a serious allegation, then perhaps you haven’t been paying attention. It’s been on display plenty of times in the past. I will spare you the litany, since it’s on full display again. And plenty of people other than I have noticed what I’ve noticed.

    http://nypost.com/2014/08/24/obamas-golf-outing-after-foley-beheading-was-a-huge-mistake/

    Sometimes a round of golf is just a round of golf. And sometimes it reveals the ­essence of a man.

    President Obama’s decision to hit the links and yuk it up with pals immediately after speaking about the beheading of James ­Foley was no ordinary mistake. Nor was it a simple gaffe.

    The decision continues to cause an uproar because, like an X-ray, there is no escaping the image. It shows there is no there there.

    …Instead, Obama continued with his vacation and was photographed looking as if he didn’t have a care in the world. Suddenly, that megawatt smile that often charmed voters wasn’t so charming. It was vacuous.

    He looked like an empty-headed frat boy, numb to the world.

    Maybe that’s not just an appearance. Maybe it’s the truth. Maybe that’s all there is.

    There is a reason why I call the WH the freshman dorm. Although I disagree with the author to this extent; his head isn’t empty. It’s filled with the kind of nonsense you’d find in any gender, ethnic, or race studies classroom. Plus what he managed to pick up in Marxist econ courses.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  291. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbWEyRS6hL4

    Lowry: Obama’s ‘JV-Squad’ ISIS Comments ‘Not Just Flatly Wrong, but Juvenile’

    Rich Lowry has Obama’s number.

    Rich Lowry: Obama has proven he lacks any depth

    …It’s certainly true that the president is much further left than he’d ever admit, but the deepest truth about Obama is that there is no depth. He’s smart without being wise. He’s glib without being eloquent. He’s a celebrity without being interesting. He’s callow.

    It’s a trope on the right to say that Obama has quit, that he’s not interested in the job anymore. It isn’t true. If you are smug and unwilling to bend from your (erroneous) presumptions of how the world works, this is what presidential leadership looks like.

    …The notion that Obama might be a grand historical figure was always an illusion, although at the beginning his rousing words lent it some superficial support. Once the magic wore off, it became clear he’s not really an orator. His greatest rhetorical skill turns out to be mockery.

    …The president’s constant complaints about everyone else in Washington playing politics while he high-mindedly devotes himself to substance have all the maturity of Holden Caulfield’s plaints about “phonies.” Please, grow up.

    That’s spot on. But then, that was obvious before he gave those appallingly weak remarks about ISIS after Foley’s beheading. All you have to do is read the transcripts of his recent commencement address at West Point, his speech at the National Defense University, his Cairo speech, to pick just three, to realize we are dealing with a dangerously childish ignoramus with boundless unearned self-esteem that doesn’t border on arrogance. It hits that border at full throttle and continues on out the opposite side into whatever lies beyond arrogance.

    I love how he drones on about what history teaches us, then proceeds to pronounce things that history most definitely does not teach us. In his Foley remarks that moment came when he declared that history teaches us that people like ISIS ultimately fail.

    No it doesn’t. In fact, history is replete with examples of people far more brutal than ISIS succeeding to a huge extent, and for a very long time. I will give but one example. Muhammed himself, the man these ISIS characters model themselves upon (indeed all good Muslims are supposed to model themselves on Muhammed.

    http://quran.com/5/33

    Surat Al-Mā’idah

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

    Allah apparently was compelled to issue this verse because Muhhammed had indulged in far too much cruelty when executing some apostates who had killed a herder and attempted to steal camels. Cruelty that surpassed what ISIS did to Foley. When the apostates and murderers were caught, Muhammad had both hands and feet cut off, nails driven into their eyes, had them thrown off a high place down onto some rocks, though not high enough to kill them, and denied them water as they begged for it while they roasted to death under the Arabian sun.

    So Allah said that’s taking things too far. Here’s what you will limit your punishment to when dealing with such people in the future.

    Muhammad didn’t think he had ultimately failed. His companions didn’t think Muhammad had failed. His followers today don’t think Muhammad had failed. Only our childish Preezy could deliver such sweeping pronouncements about such people always ultimately fail, because they don’t. In fact, when they do fail it’s because they’ve been defeated in an all out war effort. But then our freshman dorm Preezy doesn’t believe in winning or losing wars.

    He thinks history teaches us that all wars just end! Not in defeat or victory, because of course when you’re sitting around smoking pot and BSing in the freshman dorm the height of wisdom is to sagely say that no one wins wars anyway.

    He imparted this tidbit of freshman dorm wisdom in his speech at the NDU. Accompanied by even more pot-fueled freshman dorm wisdom.

    Frankly, I think he likes to do so many speeches at colleges and universities because that’s his natural element.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  292. His rigid, ideological, and juvenile worldview is one of his very real vices. I

    I see no indication of any of this. I see a man who lives in a psychological bubble and has no engagement with any other worldview. That’s the default setting on the portside. You see it in journalists, even extensively educated journalists. I’ve seen it in philosophy professors.

    Your conflating the personal with the political o’er much. He has a mundane life like the next man. As for the optics, they’re the optics. Yes, he lacks a regard for appearances and I do not think that speaks well of him generally.

    Several thousand Americans die every day, just not as gruesomely as this fellow Foley. There likely was not much the military or the diplomatic corps could have done for him without making the situation worse (which may grate on the family, but it’s true).

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  293. His glib and utterly unstatesmanlike words calling ISIS the “junior varsity” (as others have mentioned upthread) unnecessarily taunted them and provoked them. I think it’s fair to say that Foley’s horrible death should be just a little more on the president’s conscience than the “several thousand Americans who die each day”. It would be nice if anyone could believe Mr. Obama has the slightest recognition of this but his actions suggest he does not.

    elissa (cf9943)

  294. I am not being personal when I say he’s juvenile. I am accurately describing him, and he’s immature.

    His remarks about ISIS being the J.V. team were, as Lowry correctly terms it, both flatly wrong and juvenile. But then, so were his remarks about Putin looking like the bored kid in the back of the class.

    Putin is a former KGB agent who preyed on people’s weaknesses and flaws in order to recruit spies; he recognizes this immaturity as a flaw in Obama’s character that he can exploit, and in fact has exploited. As have others.

    Governments all over the world have dossiers on foreign political and military leaders containing both biographical data as well as psychological profiles or assessments. Obama’s immaturity along with his legion other flaws and weaknesses are in his dossier at more than one capitol around the globe, you can bank on that. And that’s why I’m not being personal when I point it out.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  295. elissa, I fear Mr. Art Deco like our endlessly vacationing President doesn’t grasp the point. Foley’s death wasn’t just one of several thousands of American deaths that occur every day. To lump it in with all the others demonstrates a complete failure to grasp the enormity and urgency of the situation. That wasn’t just a death, that was a declaration of war.

    The issue isn’t whether or not anyone could have done anything to prevent that death. The issue is what does the President intend to do to prevent the next several thousand deaths. Apparently King Putt intends to play a few more rounds.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  296. There is neither ‘enormity’ nor ‘urgency’. He was an expatriate working in a dangerous part of the world. That’s regrettable. We have had the same problem in the Near East &c for more than a dozen years now. Yesterday, today, tomorrow. We need better strategy, persistence, and someone in the Oval Office who can persuade the public that you need to grind the enemy down until he is defeated.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  297. I am not being personal when I say he’s juvenile. I am accurately describing him, and he’s immature.

    No, you’re tossing insults all over the map. Pick your targets better.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  298. No urgency?
    Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer (Ret.):

    I’m hearing from my friends in the Pentagon, they are giving him every single option way ahead of time. And let me give you a little secret here: The reason that raid into Syria failed to get Foley and those guys was because the president drug his feet. He waited too long, the intel got stale, and by the time we actually gave the “go” word it failed because we just didn’t react quick enough.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/08/depends_on_the_meaning_of_isis.html#ixzz3BMsBqDsj

    elissa (cf9943)

  299. When General Crassus walled Spartacus in at Rhegium, Spartacus crucified a captured Roman soldier within sight of Crassus’ fortification in full view of the general and his army.

    Tens of thousands of Roman soldiers had already been killed trying to crush the slave revolt. That one death was not just one death among those thousands. That one death was different. Crassus (and Spartacus’ own men) got the message.

    It would have been lost on Obama, who would have decried senseless workplace violence.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  300. 308. …We have had the same problem in the Near East &c for more than a dozen years now.

    Art Deco (ee8de5) — 8/24/2014 @ 7:42 pm

    No, this is not the same problem that we’ve had for more than a dozen years. We have never had this problem before.

    The J.V. team has done what OBL could only dream of doing. And pinprick airstrikes won’t fix it.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  301. 309. …No, you’re tossing insults all over the map. Pick your targets better.

    Art Deco (ee8de5) — 8/24/2014 @ 7:43 pm

    You ought to read what’s in those files on foreign leaders. They’re brutally hones, not gratuitously insulting.

    But that would depend on your POV. I’m sure if anyone were to get their hands on their own dossier, they’d feel pretty insulted.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  302. Hillary will give ISIS the what-for

    she has breasts!

    hisTORical breasts

    TWO of them

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  303. Volodya has a limited skill set, there’s a reason they sent him to Dresden, his gifts were employed more effectively behind closed doors in St, Petersburg and Moscow, the Harnden piece in the other
    thread, shows the folly of delaying decisions

    narciso (ee1f88)

  304. …He waited too long, the intel got stale…

    No way, elissa! One of the most sophisticated consumers of intelligence on the planet, as his spokesweasel said when the fact that Obama rarely if ever attended his briefings, and he let the intel go stale?

    unbelievable.

    Actually, that little exchange was very revealing. Obama’s Baghdad Bob tried to reassure the press and the public that Obama is so soooper smart that all he needs to do is read the brief off his tablet. He doesn’t need if voxsplained to him by some idiot intel pogue.

    Reality is, as usual with this WH, exactly the opposite. Smart, sophisticated consumers of intel would not be satisfied with a written brief because they have a strategic vision and can poke holes in the brief, can torture the briefer with insightful questions that at some point the briefer can’t answer (the smarter and more sophisticated the consumer, the sooner you arrive at that point), forcing the briefer to come back with a follow-up when they find the answers to those questions.

    What this WH told the world is that Obama isn’t bright enough to come up with any questions about the intel he’s reading.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  305. 313. Art Deco is not a serious individual.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  306. we’ve seen this problem going back to the Son tay raid, fresh intelligence is actionable intelligence:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/mtv-to-air-ferguson-psas-during-video-music-awards-videos/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  307. Sort of autopsy related news out of Ferguson, MO, at least as it relates to possible future autopsies.

    http://soopermexican.com/2014/08/22/special-cbs-report-ferguson-residents-will-loot-and-destroy-businesses-until-businesses-give-them-jobs/

    Confronted with this level of stupidity, words nearly fail me. I suppose once they loot and destroy their way into a job, the next step will be to beat the customers until they start leaving bigger tips.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  308. no jobs no peace?

    this deck’s a wee lil bit stacked in food stamp america no?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  309. Obama’s birth certificate is as phony as a 3 dollar bill, [...] he finally released a computerized facsimile of a birth certificate that’s an obvious forgery.

    How so? What makes you think it’s not genuine?

    the controversy over his place of birth is a clever diversion to shift attention away from the identification of his father.

    Why? What difference could that possibly make?

    Back then, Stanley Ann Dunham was in a fix, she was pregnant and needed a Black husband quick. There weren’t many suitable candidates in 1960 Honolulu to choose from so she struck a bargain with a foreign student she’s met at the university: if Barack Obama Sr would give his name to her baby the marriage would allow him to remain in the US and he’d be under no financial obligation to support either mother or child. Each would go their own way. They did, but subsequent events and the glare of national politics made the once tidy and inconsequential deception impossible to maintain, it had to be covered up even at the expense of an absurd fairy tale.

    Your fantasy makes no sense. Suppose this happened exactly as you’ve described it; Barack Sr agrees to the proposition, marries Stanley (or purports to do so, since the marriage was legally void for bigamy), and his name appears on the baby’s birth certificate. Hip hip hooray. So why not release the real certificate? What exactly is being covered up by this alleged forgery?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  310. Another issue with the birth certificate is that he was adopted.
    That suggests that the birth certificate on record lists Lolo Soetero as his father, and not Barack Obama, Sr.

    Why would it do that? It was issued when he was born, before Stanley had ever heard the name Lolo Soetero.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  311. “As I said, the fact that it claims his father was a finance minister shows how unreliable it was.”

    Milhouse – You are arguing against your own point. If what you say is true, why would anybody care if the blurb was not fact checked (your #226) or whether it was unreliable? Obviously people care. You are wrong.

    Huh? What are you talking about? Nobody in the industry does care, or ever did. That’s how the publicist was able to get away with such a blatant lie; it never occurred to anyone to fact-check it, because there was no expectation that it should be true. This blurb was a complete non-issue until some right-wing bloggers decided that it was an official biography, and therefore must be true, or at least was intended to be true, and therefore they trumpeted its claim that he was born in Kenya. They were wrong.

    The claim of his Kenyan birth must be judged in exactly the same way as the claim about his father’s ministry; just as everybody agrees that the latter claim was put in just because it sounded good, with no attempt to verify it, so too the former claim.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  312. Garbage. The sea level in the Pacific is not rising, and most of the islands in Tuvalu and Kiribati are growing rather than shrinking.

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/21/2014 @ 12:19 am

    Actually the sea level is rising. A few millimeters a year. But it’s been rising since the end of the last ice age, and it’s not rising at a faster rate since people started keeping track over a century ago.

    Sea level is a funny thing. It can rise in some places and not in others. Overall, yes, the global sea level is still recovering from the last ice age, exactly as you say, but that doesn’t mean it’s doing so in all places. Finding accurate information about this is a bit difficult, but I recall reading that specifically in that region of the Pacific, no change in sea level has been detected for a long time. Here’s some information that might be helpful in this regard.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  313. Milhouse, I have checked with people in the publishing business. Plus several authors of all political stripes weighed in when Obama’s defenders claimed their precious didn’t know what was in his bio. Authors always know what’s in their bio. literary agents and publicists always run the bio through the author, if the author doesn’t write the bio themselves.

    So? What is this supposed to prove? That they read it and know what’s in it doesn’t mean they take care that it should be true. Its sole purpose is marketing, and if a fib sells better than the truth then they will happily countenance the fib.

    If Obama didn’t know that his published bio said he was born in Kenya, then that means he wasn’t the author of his purported two autobiographical works.

    Now you’re making no sense at all. First of all, this has no connection at all to either of those books. None. It did not appear in them, or in any publicity related to them.

    Second, even if this blurb had appeared on the jackets of those books, and 0bama for some reason didn’t read it or know about it, how could that possibly reflect on his authorship of the books? He is their author of record, his name appears on their covers, and he gets the royalties from them, so his interest in the “author bio” would be exactly the same no matter who actually wrote them. Supposing that he didn’t write them, how would that result in his not reading the blurbs on the jacket?

    Getting back to the bio, while it’s possible a publicist or agent to write it, I do not know of a single author who doesn’t have their bio saved to a file, which they update as needed.

    Professional authors. Not students who have yet to write anything publishable.

    Why? Because it’s vitally important. It isn’t just a “blurb” as you dismissively put it.

    Calling it a blurb is not dismissive; it’s what it’s called. But it is what it is; a short piece of writing intended for marketing rather than factual accuracy.

    The bio isn’t an afterthought.

    Who suggested that it was?

    It is one of the critical selling points an author (particularly an unpublished author) pitches to a publisher. The strength or lack thereof of the author’s bio can determine, particularly when the manuscript is unsolicited, whether or not the book gets published at all. The real product the author is trying to sell is the author. The bio serves the same purpose for the publisher that a resume would for an employer. Everything in bio is carefully considered. Everything about the author that isn’t in the bio has been carefully weighed and measured before the author decided against including that detail in the bio.

    Exactly. And that is why 0bama’s agent decided to give him an exotic background, claiming that he was born in Africa, to an anthropologist and a statesman. This would help sell a book by an unknown author with no particular expertise at anything.

    This is doubly true when the manuscript accompanying the author’s bio is purported to be the author’s autobiography.

    There was no manuscript, and the book he intended to write was originally going to be about voting rights, not an autobiography, though the proposed title was ambiguous.

    Which is why your dismissive comments about it being just a “blurb” is absurdly ridiculous. I invite you to check with anyone in the business, because you clearly haven’t. As daley points out, obviously people care. As he further pointed out, you’ve demonstrated that fact yourself, Milhouse.

    When did I ever suggest that nobody cares about a blurb? I wrote that nobody cares whether it bears any relation to the facts of the author’s life, and I stand by that assertion. As a source of facts, it’s worthless; as a marketing tool, it’s priceless. And it worked, in this case: it got him a contract and an advance, but when he didn’t produce the book he had to repay it.

    the author of Obama’s biography wrote that he was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.

    The author of 0bama’s biography (whoever that was) wrote no such thing. It was written by an employee of his agent. By the time his actual book came out, that long-ago blurb was surely forgotten.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  314. I should also note that every author I’ve ever met or corresponded with stuck very close to the facts when writing their short bios, except for that one. This is particularly true for the academics who were writing within their field of expertise.

    It has been firmly established that 0bama did not write the blurb. Further, he was not an academic, and had no particular expertise on the subject he thought he might write about.

    This is an appropriate point to bring up proofing and editing. Most of the authors I’ve talked to try to get it written into the contract that all revisions to their manuscript must be subject to their approval. Even when they can’t get the contract to require that, they still proofread the publisher’s revisions for errors. Publisher’s will generally limit the amount of changes the author can make in pre-production before they’ll start charging a fee to reprint the book, the fee to be deducted from the author’s royalties. But there should be no fee for correcting any errors introduced by the publisher or the book designer themselves.

    What has any of that got to do with the blurb the agent used to shop a proposed book to publishers? There was no manuscript. There never would be one. He never wrote the book, and he had to repay his advance. The blurb never got published on anything the general book-buying public would ever see. I’m sure he read it, because who wouldn’t, but if he had any qualms about the liberties it took with the facts he would have called the agent, who would have told him something along the lines of “your job is writing the book, my job is selling it, so why don’t you stick to your job and I’ll stick to mine”.

    Which, again, is why it’s impossible that Obama being born in Kenya was just some fact-checking error that slipped by everyone for 16 years.

    How does it show anything like that? It served its purpose at the time, and probably nobody ever looked at it again. If it had appeared in his actual published books, then you would have a point, but it didn’t.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  315. Don’t you realize that the cover letter and bio always accompany the manuscript. At least initially, not after the author is under contract. But they do accompany the manuscript in order to get the contract.

    There was no manuscript. The agent wrote the bio in order to get publishers to offer him a contract to write the manuscript. It worked, he got a contract and an advance, and then did nothing until the publisher lost patience and canceled the contract and asked for its money back.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  316. “No, his literary agent did that.”

    Sammy – Think for a minute.

    Did Obama’s literary agent Google Barack Obama back then?

    No, that bio was assembled based in info supplied by Barack Obama.

    Or she just made it up, because she knew it would sell.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  317. The man’s 53 years old, has been married for 22 years, has raised two children, and has not generated any domestic scandals. The notion he has the mind and heart of an elderly adolescent is not serious.

    Is it that he hasn’t generated any domestic scandals? Or is it that in the aftermath of the Lewinsky affair neither the Republicans nor Hillary Clinton thought it politically wise to make an issue of the plentiful material that exists for such a scandal, and that the MSM has until very recently stood four square behind him and would refuse to publish any such material?

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  318. …He waited too long, the intel got stale…

    But intel nevergets stale. When the CIA informed President Bush in August 2001 that Osama bin Laden had several years earlier formed the intention to one day stage some sort of attack on American soil, he should have acted on it immediately, and stopped that attack! And look what happened a month later, which was all Bush’s fault. That proves that this several-years-old intel was still as fresh as the day it came out of the oven. Which means intel contains an anti-staling ingredient, patent pending, so there’s no hurry to act on it. Unless your name is Bush.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  319. Smart, sophisticated consumers of intel would not be satisfied with a written brief because they have a strategic vision and can poke holes in the brief, can torture the briefer with insightful questions that at some point the briefer can’t answer (the smarter and more sophisticated the consumer, the sooner you arrive at that point), forcing the briefer to come back with a follow-up when they find the answers to those questions.

    Gee, I Wonder whom you could possiBly be thinking of there.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  320. When a child is adopted, or there is simply a name change including but not limited to taking the name of the stepfather, an amended birth certificate is issued. There may be three certificates, here. The original, the amended to Barry Soetoro, the amended back Barack Obama. That is my suspicion. From accounts by classmates that he was known as Barry Soetoro and that he was a foreign student. No biggie Constitution-wise, but another grain of sand in the Vaseline of the narrative.

    nk (dbc370)

  321. No, Milhouse, there was little actionable intelligence, that PDB was even less specific than the one in December 1998, which included the names of Mohammed Atef (soon to be deceased) and Seif al Adel
    (still kicking)

    narciso (ee1f88)

  322. I think that Milhouse was being sarcastic there.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  323. well I was rolling, besides ‘all our betters’ insisted for years, W had to act on three year old leads, ignoring that Clinton not only didn’t, but he went to war in Kosovo, another unneccesary conflict

    narciso (ee1f88)

  324. teh Wash Po ought to stick to what it does best: provide cover to this golf-bum president and his Democrat cohorts.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  325. Is it that he hasn’t generated any domestic scandals?

    No, he has not. If it pleases you to pretend he has and the media covered it up, go ahead.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  326. 329. Young, Spencer and Bland might differ had they the chance:

    http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/members_of_obama_s_church_kill.html

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  327. #321, Milhouse’s questions are in response to my comment #257:

    Question: How so? What makes you think it’s (Obama’s birth certificate) not genuine?

    There are dozens of detailed examinations of the fradulent birth certificate available on the web, as well as a number of videos featuring carefully prepared step-by-step demonstrations of exactly how the forgery was created using digital software. Here’s an excerpt from one such report from Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s Cold Case Posse: (World Trabune, 7/8/13, by Grace Vuoto) If Sheriff Joe isn’t your cup of tea, there are dozens of such examinations readily available. Type Barack Obama’s phony birth certificate into your search engine, pick one and see what you find.

    Forensic findings on Obama’s birth certificate: ‘A 100% forgery, no doubt about it’

    Those who defend Mr. Obama say inquiries into the president’s birth certificate are based on conspiracy theories; these are “birthers,” they insist, who simply refuse to accept the credible evidence presented by Mr. Obama.

    As a precaution against others misusing or manipulating Mr. Hayes’s report, Lt. Zullo has copyrighted it. (Hayes specializes in digital document forgeries and Zullo is Lead Investigator on Arpaio’s Cold Case Posse)

    Mr. Hayes’s report has provided yet another certification — among a resounding 1,200 computer software tests undertaken by Lt. Zullo’s team — that demonstrates, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the long-form birth certificate has been fabricated. Lt. Zullo appointed two reputable computer science professionals, working independently of one another, to examine the long-form birth certificate. Both experts confirmed the document is inauthentic.

    The evidence of forgery is overwhelming, all anyone with open eyes and the equivalent of a high school education needs to uncover the truth is an hour’s time, and the courage to recognize obvious deception and draw appropriate conclusions.

    Question: Why? What difference could that (the identity of Obama’s father) possibly make?…Suppose this happened exactly as you’ve described it; Barack Sr agrees to the proposition, marries Stanley (or purports to do so, since the marriage was legally void for bigamy), and his name appears on the baby’s birth certificate. Hip hip hooray. So why not release the real certificate? What exactly is being covered up by this alleged forgery?

    The answer is contained in my first paragraph:

    Obama’s birth certificate is as phony as a 3 dollar bill, and the controversy over his place of birth is a clever diversion to shift attention away from the identification of his father. (Look, Shiny rabbits!) Even then (and even more do now) the identity of the baby’s father had to remain concealed. It certainly isn’t the grad student from Kenya. Look at their pictures side by side, the ruse is laughable, it doesn’t begin to pass the eyeball test.

    Barack Obama Sr was presented in public as Stanley’s husband and as the baby’s father to conceal the identity of the real father: a black man who was already married, and who’s name appeared on the original birth certificate. That name is the reason behind the fraud.

    ropelight (09f907)

  328. ==Is it that he hasn’t generated any domestic scandals? No, he has not. If it pleases you to pretend he has and the media covered it up, go ahead.==

    Amazing. I’d be interested to know Deco’s operating definition of what constitutes a “domestic scandal”. There is domestic as in “domestic violence” and there is domestic as in “from all enemies foreign and domestic” In fact, I ‘d like to know his operating definition of “scandal” as well.

    elissa (288675)

  329. White House officials at Michal Brown funeral: 3

    White House officials at 2-Star General Harold Greene’s funeral: 0

    Colonel Haiku (43bfc3)

  330. No, his literary agent did that.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/24/2014 @ 2:26 pm

    Sammy – Think for a minute.

    Did Obama’s literary agent Google Barack Obama back then?

    No, that bio was assembled based in info supplied by Barack Obama.

    But the information might have been limited to knowing that his mother was an anthropologist, and
    his father was from Kenya, and had some kind of positions in the government there later, and they got divorced within a year or two of when Barack Obama was born.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  331. 292. Steve57 (99bd31) — 8/24/2014 @ 3:13 pm

    So, the literary agent just made it up, Sammy?

    I believe that’s what she said about a year or two ago.

    She didn’t have very many facts, and she made up what she didn’t know.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/05/17/obama-literary-agent-responds-to-born-in-kenya-bio-nothing-more-than-a-fact-checking-error/

    Miriam Goderich issued a statement to the Political Wire saying the future president never suggested “in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii”:
    “You’re undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me — an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.”

    More original source:

    http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/05/17/literary_agent_says_1991_booklet_was_a_mistake.html

    This was not corrected until 2007. This bio was one of 90 bios of authors represented by the literary agency of Acton & Dystel, included in a thirty-six page booklet printed using offset lithography that purported to celebrate the fifteenth anniversary of Acton & Dystel, which was founded in 1976, thus printed in 1991. The agency is now called Dystel & Goderich, and was founded in 1994.

    Other authors in the 199 booklet were Ralph Nader, Tip O’Neill and Mark Olshaker (authour of a
    biography of Edward Land and a few other books and also a filmmaker).

    Here in 1990, in a story written after an interview with Obama he says he was born in Hawaii.

    http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2012/03/14/obama-1990-interview-were-going-to-reshape-mean-spirited-america/

    He conceals the fact that his mother was only 18 years old when he was born AND NOT YET AN ANTHROPOLOGIST.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  332. Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/25/2014 @ 2:52 am

    When the CIA informed President Bush in August 2001 that Osama bin Laden had several years earlier formed the intention to one day stage some sort of attack on American soil, he should have acted on it immediately, and stopped that attack!

    What was he supposed to do?

    They only old him that anyway because he asked. He had been warned about an attack at a Group of * summit in Genoa, Italy and he asked what about attacks in the United States. And they came back after a while with a report, yes, he does plan to attack the United States, and we know this because he said so on TV, but we’re watching this.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  333. “his mother was an anthropologist”

    In fact, his mother was a micro-loan officer, like her mother, a banker.

    Its biological father, Franklin Marshall Davis, was her amateur porn photographer, editor of Communist rags in Chiraq and Atlanta, and common link in the Chicago politburo of Jarrett, Axelrod, Ayers, et alia.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  334. 305. elissa (cf9943) — 8/24/2014 @ 7:26 pm

    His glib and utterly unstatesmanlike words calling ISIS the “junior varsity” (as others have mentioned upthread) unnecessarily taunted them and provoked them.

    I don’t think it taunted them. It told them he wasn’t going to do anything about them. And I think they maybe picked the time for the execution of Foley to emphasize to all people that he was not going to do anything about them, because it seemed like he was pulling back already from what he had done the week before. They wanted the United States to look intimidated.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  335. @Ropelight

    The birth certificate contains words that nobody would think to invent in the 21st century.

    But it is not a document that was printed in 1961.

    It is an official certificate by the satet of Hawaii that is a somewaht manipulated photo (partially to prevent forgery) of what’s in their record books.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  336. 347. “I don’t think..”

    No you don’t. You type.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  337. 348. Pulled completely from your azz. Abercrombie admitted they had no record. The certificate, dated for a birth on the fourth, is numbered following those of twins born on the 8th, on and on and on.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  338. Amazing. I’d be interested to know Deco’s operating definition of what constitutes a “domestic scandal”.

    1. Divorce.
    2. Abortion
    3. Adulteries by either party, especially serial adultery.
    4. Domestic violence
    5. Alcoholism or street drugs in use
    6. Gross misbehavior of children.
    7. Chicanery in household finance.

    The first six he’s not done (as far as is known). You could make and argument for the 7th.

    Again, there is much to take them to task for regarding their vocational life. Mooch’s position as a hospital pseudo-administrator was (with scant doubt) contingent in important respects on having a husband on a crucial committee in the Illinois legislator. What Diplomad 2.0 has said about how political life is conducted in 3d world countries applies here: the function of the 1st lady is to launder the bribes.

    Most of our Presidents have been free of domestic scandal. The press covered up John Kennedy’s bizarre satyriasis. The public had an inkling that the Johnson’s business interests were not on the level, but they got away with that. LBJ’s dalliances, while no where near the Kennedy land speed record, were not reported.

    Judith Viorst and Woodward and Bernstein tried to trash Richard Nixon’s marriage, but the Nixon / Cox / Eisenhower clan is too manifestly untroubled for that to be credible. Richard Nixon’s brother has said he was irritated and disgusted with all the ‘psychobabble’ about his brother penned by journalists and academics who did not know him, but you do not hear much of it anymore.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  339. “they got divorced within a year or two of when Barack Obama was born”

    There is no record of the marriage, no wedding guests admit to witnessing, no presiding minister or judge, no record of divorce.

    You have nothing but the voices in your head for evidence.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  340. 331. …Gee, I Wonder whom you could possiBly be thinking of there.

    Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/25/2014 @ 2:55 am

    Actually, I wasn’t. I was thinking of some commanders I worked for (Navy and Marines) when I was in the service. There is a reason why practice briefs are called “murder boards;” these FO/GOs were brutal. Not just on intel. The ops or comms guys didn’t get off easy.

    I have no idea whether or not GWB sat there like a lump on a log, tore the intel apart like the COs I worked for, or fell somewhere in between. I wasn’t there. But I have worked for smart, sophisticated consumers of intel and the idea you can just read the brief and glean all you need to know is not smart and sophisticated. It’s laughably dumb.

    GWB was at least bright enough to know he had to personally take the brief. It was probably his business experience that taught him that. What’s more, no doubt he required certain key staff members to attend with him. Because even if he wasn’t that sophisticated a consumer of intel one of his staff members might have been. And that staff member might have asked a question that would have prompted to GWB to recognize a flaw or hole in the intel he otherwise wouldn’t have noticed. And produced follow-on questions from the CinC.

    This is another reason why you’re announcing to the world you aren’t bright enough to understand intelligence when you claim you can learn all you need to know just reading the brief on your own, in private. You’re depriving yourself of that opportunity to take advantage of other people’s insights into the intel. You’re announcing to the world you aren’t even aware you need to do that as the Commander in Chief. Something every commander, no matter how junior nor how small the unit, all over the world knows. By claiming you’re so sophisticated you don’t need to take the brief, you’re are instead demonstrating you aren’t even as sophisticated a consumer of intelligence as an O-4 in any decently trained military.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  341. 351. “Mooch’s position as a hospital pseudo-administrator was (with scant doubt) contingent in important respects on having a husband on a crucial committee in the Illinois legislator.”

    She was a ‘Jesse hire’, Jefferson and Jackson arranged the down low marriage, Obama was ridiculed as a State Senator for his nullity.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  342. Its biological father, Franklin Marshall Davis,

    You’re trafficking in the absurd.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  343. 351. How convenient for you and your answer to completely ignore the other common definition of “domestic” as was pointed out in 341, Art Deco. You are obviously equating personal scandal with domestic scandal to serve your purposes. When most people hear or use the words domestic scandal during a president’s term I don’t think the idea of satyriasis or divorce are among the first images that pop into mind. They think of things like the political IRS skullduggery or the Pigford payouts.

    elissa (288675)

  344. Steve57 (99bd31) — 8/25/2014 @ 9:28 am

    By claiming you’re so sophisticated you don’t need to take the brief, you’re are instead demonstrating you aren’t even as sophisticated a consumer of intelligence as an O-4 in any decently trained military.

    Barack Obama has, or had, a total lack of understanding that what he was being taught could be wrong. So it’s the same thing with intel.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  345. Barack Obama Sr was presented in public as Stanley’s husband and as the baby’s father to conceal the identity of the real father: a black man who was already married, and who’s name appeared on the original birth certificate. That name is the reason behind the fraud.

    Why would his name appear on the certificate? According to your own ridiculous fantasy, the whole point of the sham marriage was to create the story that Barack Sr was the father. So naturally his name would be on the certificate, and all would be well, and there’d be nothing to cover up.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  346. When the CIA informed President Bush in August 2001 that Osama bin Laden had several years earlier formed the intention to one day stage some sort of attack on American soil, he should have acted on it immediately, and stopped that attack!

    What was he supposed to do?

    Stop it, of course. I mean, how much more specific can you get than that? What was he waiting for, a rough date, general region, approximate method of attack, or some indication that bin Laden was still entertaining this idea?! Listen to yourself, man. He knew for a fact that an attack might be coming, some day, somewhere, in an unspecified manner, and he did nothing! (Well, no, he actually didn’t do nothing, he actually bumped up security at federal buildings in NYC, in case the attack was going to be a repeat of the WTC bombing. What a fool he was to think that.)

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  347. Peter Bergen raves over the Barbara Soude (sic) PDB, but it a remarkably blank document, all the FBI investigations didn’t turn up the two mecca boys, because the ‘Gorelick Wall’ blocked communication from the CIA, the report from Ken Williams in Phoenix, never made it into the brief, there could have been references to the Philipine Constabulary’s report, re targets that included the WTC as well as the CIA, or the DGSE after action report on the GIA attempt on the Eiffel Tower, hindsight is 20/20.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  348. 355. And you have discarded the mask, moby.

    My absurdities taken as a whole lead to a logical conclusion. Yours on the other hand are vaporous talking points.

    At least I begin with some factual information.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  349. getting back on topic, the whole premise of this sad kabuki, has been wrong, he wasn’t shot in the back, while innocently walking back while awaiting the college years, he foolishly confronted an officer, in the aftermath of a strong arm robbery and paid the price, but ‘the narrative’ is all that matters,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  350. . Abercrombie admitted they had no record.

    No, he didn’t.

    The certificate, dated for a birth on the fourth, is numbered following those of twins born on the 8th, on and on and on.

    So #$%^ what? Hospitals do not issue certificates in strict numerical order. They have a stack of the things, and issue whichever one comes to hand. Further, they don’t do them in strict order of birth. Not only might they do a batch of several days’ worth of births at once, but some certificates might be slightly delayed because the parents haven’t chosen a name yet. (Remember, back then hospitals didn’t shoo mothers out the door as fast as they could; nobody had yet heard of golden staph, and hospitals weren’t that expensive, so they would stay for 5-10 days.)

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  351. 362. And MO ain’t FL, and Wilson ain’t a self-appointed neighborhood watchman getting his melon opened on the sidewalk.

    The mutant assaulted the cop while he was seated in his patrol car!

    If this case even results in criminal charges against Wilson I’ll eat yesterday’s shorts.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  352. Well Frank Davis, was possibly the strongest early influence on his life, that can be affirmed without question.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  353. It shouldn’t, but you better carry your Scout knife and spork kit to be safe… and a canteen.

    Colonel Haiku (43bfc3)

  354. 363. There he goes again, ‘refuting’ facts with suppositions. The certificates I refer to were on microfiche, photo copies of which, along with the originals exist. Photos of the originals can be found on the web.

    Your possible, maybe, reality somewhat pales versus plausible reality. Or do you not see that?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  355. I am still chuckling over the conclusion Milhouse jumped to. That when I was talking about how smart, sophisticated consumers of intelligence operate I was thinking about GWB.

    No. There are lots of smart, sophisticated consumers of intel working for the USG. Almost none of them are in the Oval Office.

    There are only two Presidents since WWII that I don’t need to speculate about vis a vis intelligence.

    Eisenhower was a sophisticated consumer of intelligence. He couldn’t have pulled off Operation Overlord had it been otherwise. All contemporary reports confirm this. And he was a lifelong military officer. Literally. Five star rank is for life, so he was a General of the Army until the day he died (except for the 8 years he temporarily resigned his commission so he could be President). He had decades of practice digesting intelligence before ever becoming President.

    Then there’s Barack Obama, who characteristically demonstrated his amateurishness and intellectual laziness while ignorantly thinking he was demonstrating his brilliance.

    I have no idea if other Presidents were smart and sophisticated consumers of intel or complete dullards. I just know about these two. Barack Obama should have remembered the old adage; it is better to keep silent and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  356. gary gulrud (46ca75) — 8/25/2014 @ 9:26 am

    There is no record of the marriage, no wedding guests admit to witnessing, no presiding minister or judge, no record of divorce.

    They eloped, and both families opposed the marriage. Barack Obama Sr. seems to have told Stanley Ann Dunham’s parents that he was divorced, without going into further detail.

    The facts of when the marriage took place come from the divorce decree. Why some biographers were not able to obtain the marriage record, I don’t know.

    They married on February 2, 1961, in Wailuku, Hawaii, during the week long break between fnal exams and spring registration. Nobody from her family was there – nor was there a cake or a ring. They had a reception a couple of days later in Honolulu.

    The marriage seems to have bene treated as legal and valid.

    There’s a letter Obama’s mother wrote to Susan Botkin Blake, a classmate of hers from high school whom she kept on contact with that says:

    Big News! I married the African. I am now Mrs. Barack Obama and we are expecting a baby in the summer. My parents are dealing with it quite well.

    This letter was apparently still in her possession when she ws interviewed by Sally H. Jacobs when she was writing her book “The Other Barack: The Bold and reckless Life of President Obama’s Father (Public Affairs, 2011.)

    Barack Obama Sr. kept the marriage quiet, and also the baby.

    And where he couldn’t, well..

    Within two months of his marriage to Dunham, Obama told Sumi McCabe, UH’s foreign student adviser, that his wife wass making arrangements to give their unborn baby up for adoption. According to the INS memo concerning her April conversation with Dahling, the INS Administrator, “Subject [Obama] got his USC [United States citizen] wife ‘Hapai’ [pidgen for pregnant] and although they were married they do not live together and Miss Dunhan is making arrangements with the Salvation Army to give the baby away.”…

    …It is possible that Obama Sr., not always entirely beholden to the truth, simply lied about the matter. Salvation Army officials, who might have a record of any conversation they had with Dunham, if one had taken place, declined to discuss this matter, citing privacy regulations. In an interview, Robert Gibbs, White House Press Secretary at the time, said that President Obama had never heard that either of his parents considered putting him up for adoption, nor had he seen the INS memo. Obama declined to be interviewed on the subject “because of the very personal nature of the request,” according to a White House spokesman. McCabe, 89 and living in a retirement community in Honolulu, remembers Obama well. But she does not recall any conversation about his having a baby or about giving it up.

    – The Other Barack: The Bold and reckless Life of President Obama’s Father by Sally H. Jacobs (Public Affairs, 2011.) page 122-123.

    I think it’s possible, that the INS memo to file might have unintentionally made it sound like Sumi McCabe was the source of this information when it actually came directly from Barack Obama Sr. to the INS.

    Barack Obama Sr. might have made this claim in order to be able to more easily say he could support himself without working, because his visa needed to be extended. In other words he had no extra expenses because he didn’t live with (that is support) his wife and she was going to gove the baby up for adoption.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  357. Steve57 (99bd31) — 8/25/2014 @ 10:31 am

    Barack Obama should have remembered the old adage; it is better to keep silent and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    I thnk Calvin Coolidge (Silent Cal) used to quote that.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  358. I really do not see the value or purpose in 2014 in continuing to discuss the birth certificate.

    elissa (288675)

  359. Milhouse (9d71c3) — 8/25/2014 @ 9:48 am

    (Well, no, he actually didn’t do nothing, he actually bumped up security at federal buildings in NYC, in case the attack was going to be a repeat of the WTC bombing. What a fool he was to think that.)

    Well, some people thought that the last time they attacked from the bottom, and this time they would attack from the top.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  360. 369. ‘Eloped’, sure, that explains no certificate? And Ann returns to Washington for her calendar sophomore year. So she unilaterally ends the common law arrangement.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  361. 371. You are, of course, correct. Pointless. The same goes for the GOP I would hope?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  362. What I’d llke to see is the birth certifcate of Bill Clinton, or some kind of comtemporary (re-1969) record of his birthday.

    I think he may have changed his date of birth in 1969 to evade the draft. (after the draft lottery)

    Art Deco @ 276 – I don’t see what these links tell me.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  363. 366. Caveat: Denial of civil rights charges do not qualify as criminal charges.

    What dissolves cotton without dissolving mucosa?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  364. There are two New York times semi in depth bio stories today – one on Michael brown and one ofn Darren Wilson.

    Darren Wilson’s family was worse than that of Michael Brown’s. His first police department was dissolved but not because of anything he did.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  365. Amazing. I’d be interested to know Deco’s operating definition of what constitutes a “domestic scandal”.

    1. Divorce.
    2. Abortion
    3. Adulteries by either party, especially serial adultery.
    4. Domestic violence
    5. Alcoholism or street drugs in use
    6. Gross misbehavior of children.
    7. Chicanery in household finance.

    The first six he’s not done (as far as is known).

    Only because neither the press nor the Republicans have been willing to tell you about it. Exactly as you admit happened with JFK.

    Do the names Larry Sinclair and Vera Baker mean anything to you? If not, what does that tell you?

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  366. 377. !Oxymoron alert! “New York times semi in depth bio stories”

    Corrections page 26 section C, upside down in classifieds.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  367. “Darren Wilson’s family was worse than that of Michael Brown’s.”

    Their credit score was lower and they bred outside their genera.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  368. I have no idea whether or not GWB sat there like a lump on a log, tore the intel apart like the COs I worked for, or fell somewhere in between. I wasn’t there. But I have worked for smart, sophisticated consumers of intel and the idea you can just read the brief and glean all you need to know is not smart and sophisticated. It’s laughably dumb.

    His briefers have said that he was as you described.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  369. 363. There he goes again, ‘refuting’ facts with suppositions. The certificates I refer to were on microfiche, photo copies of which, along with the originals exist. Photos of the originals can be found on the web.

    And therefore? How does that bear on the numerical sequencing? How does it in any way imply that one should expect a baby born on one day to have a certificate with a sequence number earlier than one born on the next day?

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  370. “Darren Wilson’s family was worse than that of Michael Brown’s.”

    gary gulrud (46ca75) — 8/25/2014 @ 10:59 am

    Their credit score was lower and they bred outside their genera.

    Closer than you think, but no cigar.

    His mother was repeatedly divorced. But more important:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html

    He was the eldest of three children of Tonya Dee Durso, who, records show, carried out financial crimes, including against Sandra Lee Finney, who lived across the street and had believed they were friends….

    …After her bank informed her that it was freezing her accounts, Ms. Finney said she learned that numerous credit cards had been opened in her name, her mail was being stolen, her phones were secretly forwarded across the street, and the thief had managed to obtain her driver’s license and a copy of the key to her front door. Among the purchases: tens of thousands of dollars of candles; home decorations; furniture; clothes, including some from American Eagle Outfitters, which Ms. Finney says was Officer Wilson’s favorite store at the time; and hockey gear.

    “All the while, she’d come over and sit at my kitchen table to chat and say how she would help me with this terrible thing that was happening to us,” Ms. Finney said of Ms. Durso, whom she described as a thin, blonde woman who seemed upper-middle class. “What hurt me more than all of it was what she did to those kids.”

    Ms. Durso pleaded guilty and was sentenced to probation. Not long after, in 2002, when Officer Wilson was a sophomore in high school, Ms. Durso died at age 35 and one of his stepfathers was granted guardianship until he finished high school. An obituary cited natural causes.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  371. 382. Milhouse, you are complaining my evidence is not ironclad when I made no representation as such, e.g., at 361. The original, the microfiche do not exist, the number assigned is out of sequence, the name of the hospital is anachronistic, etc.

    The weight of the evidence with absolutely nothing to militate against it, is that the official certificate was manufactured out of whole cloth. Which fact in turn, leads one to wonder where and when little Barry was birthed.

    At home in Honolulu in the bathtub? Did a freaking Manchurian stork drop his azz, what?

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  372. The evidence of forgery is overwhelming,

    The evidence is nonexistent. Arpaio is a disreputable fraud, and “As a precaution against others misusing or manipulating Mr. Hayes’s report, Lt. Zullo has copyrighted it” is enough to disqualify it from any serious consideration.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  373. 385. Milhouse you are a loon, take a timeout or the next infraction gets a red card.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  374. The first police department he worked for was dissolved because of one or two problems.

    One of its 40 officers had chased a woman who was being stopped for traffic offense (as mitigation she had a child in the back and might have feared arrest) and shot at her. He got fired.

    More important maybe, the city had gotten grant money to pay for overtime for D.W.I checkpoints that never took place.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2ec36)

  375. Do the names Larry Sinclair and Vera Baker mean anything to you? If not, what does that tell you?

    It tells me nothing.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  376. . How convenient for you and your answer to completely ignore the other common definition of “domestic” as was pointed out in 341, Art Deco. You are obviously equating personal scandal with domestic scandal to serve your purposes. When most people hear or use the words domestic scandal during a president’s term I don’t think the idea of satyriasis or divorce are among the first images that pop into mind. They think of things like the political IRS skullduggery or the Pigford payouts.

    I cannot help it if the common-and-garden term ‘domestic’ fries your circuits.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  377. Art Deco @ 276 – I don’t see what these links tell me.

    That’s one of the elder William Blythe’s other (known) children. They have a sister as well named Sharon Pettijohn, of which AFAIK there is no image out there. William Blythe was married multiple times, and was quite possibly a bigamist. These two surfaced in 1993 (none since). I assume they themselves alerted the media when they discovered from news profiles the President’s parentage. The specs on Mrs. Pettijohn’s birth certificate were reported in the New York Times at the time. BC spent some fragments of time with Leon Ritzenthaler over the years, but as of 2001 had never met Sharon Pettijohn.

    The thesis that this man is BC’s older brother is plausible. There is enough correspondence with the facial features.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  378. 385. Milhouse you are a loon, take a timeout or the next infraction gets a red card.

    From whom, your buddy Arpaio?! There is no evidence or even reason to suspect that the birth certificate 0bama finally produced (after years of suspicious refusal) is anything but genuine. Until he produced it I was as suspicious as anyone; I never thought a Kenyan birth was plausible, but it seemed more likely that he was covering something up than that he was just playing head games with his enemies. I thought it was likely to be something as simple as his name having been recorded as Barry Dunham, which would have no serious consequences but would contradict his narrative; and of course once he’d put out the extract he was locked into it. But he finally did release the full certificate, and all credible sources accepted it as valid, so it appears that his earlier refusal to release it was just perversity. Each challenge since then has been more ridiculous than the one before it, and none have attracted any reputable support.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  379. Do the names Larry Sinclair and Vera Baker mean anything to you? If not, what does that tell you?

    It tells me nothing.

    Well, it should. Whether there turns out to be anything to these allegations or not, their names ought to be as familiar to you as that of Gennifer Flowers.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  380. I really do not see the value or purpose in 2014 in continuing to discuss the birth certificate.

    elissa (288675) — 8/25/2014 @ 10:37 am

    You could do so as an exercise in parody, so that liberal blogs can google and find those silly comments to help prove that conservatives are morons. But maybe that’s not a good idea.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  381. 382. Milhouse, you are complaining my evidence is not ironclad when I made no representation as such, e.g., at 361. The original, the microfiche do not exist

    Says who? Of course the microfiche exists, that’s where the printout came from. Reasoning that the printout must be a forgery because the microfiche doesn’t exist, and the microfiche can’t exist because the printout is a forgery, is so circular as to be ridiculous

    , the number assigned is out of sequence,

    Which means nothing at all, as I explained in detail earlier.

    the name of the hospital is anachronistic, etc.

    No, it isn’t. That alone shows what bulldust you have bought into. The hospital name is exactly correct for the time, and is exactly what appears on all other certificates it issued at the time. Those who claim otherwise only show themselves to be frauds.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  382. Ann Coulter offered several years ago that if you release the long-form certificate, the onanists pushing this mess would simply retreat to another set of contrived objections. Good call, Ann.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  383. Ann Coulter offered several years ago that if you release the long-form certificate, the onanists pushing this mess would simply retreat to another set of contrived objections. Good call, Ann.

    They would and did. The reasonable people, however, who constituted a clear majority of those demanding a look at the actual birth certificate rather than a mere extract, wouldn’t and didn’t.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  384. Reasonable people, sure. The same reasonable people that demanded long-form birth certificates from … zero presidential candidates except for the black guy.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  385. The same reasonable people that demanded long-form birth certificates from … zero presidential candidates except for the black guy.

    They asked for John McCain’s birth certificate as well. As far as I know, John McCain isn’t black.

    hadoop (f7d5ba)

  386. Actually an Alan Keyes guy demanded it of McCain, a 9/11 denialist, and serial litigant, Berg, (and a Hillary supporter) brought the movement to light,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  387. “The same reasonable people that demanded long-form birth certificates from … zero presidential candidates except for the black guy.”

    carlitos – Why did Hillary stir that stuff up?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  388. Great point, mr daleyrocks. Hillary! started it, and Jerome Corsi, Matt Drudge, Jim Geraghty, Andrew Breitbart, Donald Trump and Joseph Farah ran with it. It’s almost like conservative opinion leaders don’t have brains.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  389. It never occurred to anyone to ask previous presidential candidates for their birth certificates. I know I always assumed they had to submit them in order to get on the ballot. I was shocked when I learned that they didn’t, because now that we know this what’s to stop a Schwartzenegger or a Granholm, or a 34-year-old, from simply claiming to be eligible?

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  390. Hillary! started it, and Jerome Corsi, Matt Drudge, Jim Geraghty, Andrew Breitbart, Donald Trump and Joseph Farah ran with it.

    Once Hillary! had asked the question, it needed to be answered, and his adamant refusal to release his birth certificate, when it would have been so simple to do so, was enough to justify people asking why not. Any previous candidate would have had no problem producing one if asked.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  391. 391. Arpaio is irrelevant, and added nothing to the discussion, as neither do you.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  392. 391. Arpaio is irrelevant, and added nothing to the discussion, as neither do you.

    I’m not the one who raised Arpaio. He was the only source given for the forgery claim, so I had to address it.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  393. One can only imagine what the Ethnocentrist might suppose a credible authority.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  394. “Great point, mr daleyrocks. Hillary! started it, and Jerome Corsi, Matt Drudge, Jim Geraghty, Andrew Breitbart, Donald Trump and Joseph Farah ran with it.”

    carlitos – Zactly. And she did it because Obama was half black? LOL! Love the lefty race baiting memes. Having a foreign parent and cloudy circumstances surrounding his background obviously had nothing to do with it, something not shared by the other candidates. It was all teh raaaaacisms!!!!11ty!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  395. Typical white people.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  396. carlitos – Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are both black, right?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  397. It’s remarkable how many presidential candidates have been born outside the US – Romney, McCain, Cruz… It might be nice to clarify the qualifications for President at some point.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  398. One can only imagine what the Ethnocentrist might suppose a credible authority.

    What makes Arpaio credible? Which authority do you cite for the proposition that the certificate is forged, and what makes that authority credible? You are the one making a claim; substantiate it or withdraw it.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  399. Any previous candidate would have had no problem producing one if asked.

    Milhouse (7999ec) — 8/25/2014 @ 1:50 pm

    Can you name one please?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  400. Romney, McCain, Cruz…

    Romney was born in Detroit, McCain was born in the Canal Zone (sired by a naval officer on duty there) and Cruz is not a candidate. Otherwise accurate.

    Both McCain’s parents were American citizens and Cruz’s mother was, so they have citizenship via jus sanguinis.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  401. Any previous candidate would have had no problem producing one if asked.

    That’s how he rolls, and he gets away with it. People hunt this snark and they do not put in effort to obtain his transcripts, which might just be embarrassing (as were Albert Gore’s and John Kerry’s). He’s released less of his medical history than any candidate in the last forty years. (Close students of his chatter contend some of his jargon is characteristic of people who’ve had psychotherapy of the ‘cognitive’ sort). I’d wager there were referrals to psychiatrists remarked in Kerry’s personnel files, which is why only the Boston Globe were permitted to inspect them.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  402. 381. …His briefers have said that he was as you described.

    Milhouse (7999ec) — 8/25/2014 @ 11:03 am

    I tend not to rely primarily on what some briefers have to say when they decide to go public. You never know if they have an axe to grind.

    Which is why I don’t speculate about any of the other Presidents. There are simply two we can be sure about. To employ folksy sayings, with Eisenhower the proof was in the pudding. With Obama you were getting it from the horse’s mouth.

    All else falls into the category of RUMINT. Which in the case of Eisenhower I consider nice-to-have but unneeded confirmation of his sophisticated grasp of intel.

    Thinking about it, I have never worked for a FO/GO who wasn’t a sophisticated consumer of intel. Sometimes they had glaring blind spots though. I was in Central America working counter-narcotics for a USAF brigadier. He absolutely refused to believe certain aspects of the intel. He was convinced that the drug cartels were nothing more than Juan Valdez, trekking across the mountains with his trusty burro bringing his produce to market. Except instead of baskets full of coffee beans slung on the side of his donkey, the baskets were full of coca leaves. Nothing intel could tell him could convince him otherwise, despite the fact the cartels were awash in cash and could buy all the equipment they needed, and people with the expertise to work that equipment, to evade our efforts.

    But this was during Desert Storm One. He insisted on being briefed on that as well and there he proved to be a pretty sharp cookie (continuing with the folksy sayings). But then, Desert Storm One touched on his field of expertise while counter-narcotics didn’t. He had just been thrown into the job. Still, he should have kept an open mind.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  403. because he’s a protege, of Bell and De Unger and other like minds, his interest was pouring more gasoline in Ferguson, he wasn’t interest in Foley’s plight, apparently Qatar got Curtis out, however.

    narciso (ee1f88)

  404. what a wrong turn this thread has taken…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  405. birth certificates?
    for The Confessed Dog Eater
    and snorter of coke

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  406. Any previous candidate would have had no problem producing one if asked.

    Milhouse (7999ec) — 8/25/2014 @ 1:50 pm

    Can you name one please?

    Just go down the list of all previous presidential candidates, for the past century or so, ever since birth certificates were invented. None of them would have had a problem producing one if asked. If you think otherwise, name the ones you think would have had a problem with it, and explain why.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  407. whazzup carlitos
    you dog the conservatives
    ben dover for libs?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  408. Romney, McCain, Cruz…

    Romney was born in Detroit, McCain was born in the Canal Zone (sired by a naval officer on duty there) and Cruz is not a candidate. Otherwise accurate.

    Romney Sr. Who, in my opinion, was indeed ineligible. I also believe Cruz to be ineligible, and think he shouldn’t run, but should instead stay in the senate for a decade or so, and then get appointed to the Supreme Court. McCain is different, because he was born under US jurisdiction and under the protection of US law.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  409. Any previous candidate would have had no problem producing one if asked.

    That’s how he rolls, and he gets away with it.

    Indeed, but he did produce the birth certificate in the end, and that put an end to serious questions about that record. As you point out, he is still hiding so much more information.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  410. 418. what a wrong turn this thread has taken…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 8/25/2014 @ 4:21 pm

    Not nearly as wrong a turn as the country has taken, coronello.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  411. Steve57, here’s one account of how W Bush handled economic briefings. I’ve read the same about his intel briefings, but can’t find the reference just now.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  412. Milhouse, at#358, you ask: (edited for clarity)

    Why would (a name other than Barack Obama Sr appear) on the certificate? According to your own ridiculous fantasy, the whole point of the sham marriage was to create the story that Barack Sr was the father. So naturally his name (Barack Obama Sr) would be on the certificate, and all would be well, and there’d be nothing to cover up.

    Except that Stanley Ann Dunham was proud of her baby boy and wanted his real father’s name on the official record of his birth so he couldn’t be denied, so when he grew to be a man he’d be proud of himself and proud of her. She saw him as a child of destiny, the son of an important historical figure, and Stanley Ann was determined to preserve a link to his true identity. She owed her bastard son at least that much, any mother does. Remember, there were no DNA paternity tests in 1961.

    For public consumption Stanley Ann pretended Obama Sr was the baby’s father. But when it came to the official record of her son’s birth she couldn’t bring herself to betray the truth of his parentage. Caught on the horns of a dilemma, forced to live a lie, yet unwilling to deny the truth, she made sure an official record existed to verify the father’s identity while still pretending it was someone else.

    #340, I wrote: The evidence of forgery is overwhelming…

    At #385 you responded:

    The evidence is nonexistent. Arpaio is a disreputable fraud, and “As a precaution against others misusing or manipulating Mr. Hayes’s report, Lt. Zullo has copyrighted it” is enough to disqualify it from any serious consideration.

    Milhouse, you apparently didn’t follow my advice. Here’s the part you left out:

    The evidence of forgery is overwhelming, all anyone with open eyes and the equivalent of a high school education needs to uncover the truth is an hour’s time, and the courage to recognize obvious deception and draw appropriate conclusions.

    Since I know there was enough time (comments are time stamped), it’s apparent either your eyes are closed or you didn’t do your homework, or both. In any case, repeating uninformed opinions is silly and time wasting, and the inclusion of gratuitous insults (ridiculous fantasy) is childish. Don’t expect me to respond to your questions if you can’t at least be civil.

    Also at #385, you wrote: Arpaio is a disreputable fraud…

    Let me again refer you to my comment at #340:

    If Sheriff Joe isn’t your cup of tea, there are dozens of such examinations readily available. Type Barack Obama’s phony birth certificate into your search engine, pick one and see what you find.

    But, of course you didn’t do your homework. Instead you smeared a man many open minded Americans respect. Afraid of the message and too lazy to inform yourself, you smear the messenger. Then to top it off you make the absurd claim that copyrighting a report “…is enough to disqualify it from any serious consideration.” Now, that’s just plain stupid. I read your comments, you know better.

    Of course, there’s more, but this comment is already too long.

    ropelight (09f907)

  413. harry reid is not
    numbah one he’s numbah ten
    wild hare up his ass

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  414. if ISIS beheaded a number 3 wood on video, would that make Obama’s putter flutter?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  415. 426. Steve57, here’s one account of how W Bush handled economic briefings. I’ve read the same about his intel briefings, but can’t find the reference just now.

    Milhouse (7999ec) — 8/25/2014 @ 4:34 pm

    I recall reading that when it first came out. I tend to take such reports with a grain of salt, no matter which way they cut, to a President’s credit or to his detriment. But this:

    You think that me cold-calling you is nerve-wracking? Try defending a sentence you inserted into a draft speech, with President Bush pouncing on the slightest weakness in your argument or your word choice.

    This is how sophisticated consumers of intel operate. It’s why I mentioned that the practice brief is called a murder board. They have their doo-doo all in one nice neat little pile, and they require you to have yours together, too.

    I would be embarrassed if I were Preezy for my WH press secretary to tell the world I am sooo sophisticated I don’t need a brief. When in fact if I were Preezy and fancied myself a sophisticated consumer of intel not only would I attend the briefing, I’d make the briefer defend every word. I can’t imagine that Carney came up with that story without running it by the President. But suppose he had? I’d have corrected the record. The fact that Obama let his spokesman’s statement stand unchallenged makes it Obama’s statement. He didn’t see anything wrong with it.

    Of course I would have attended the briefings in the first place. So in Obama’s case there was no record to correct, as the record was accurate. And Obama was so clueless he didn’t know why anyone would have a problem with his disinterest in intel. But then, he’s displayed the same disinterest in other aspects of his job over the past few weeks of his endless vacation that is the Obama presidency.

    For future reference, if I talk about sophisticated consumers of intel or something along those lines, something that doesn’t touch exclusively on a presidential function but on executive functions in general, I am not being partisan. I know for a fact that some of those sophisticated consumers of intel that I knew personally were Democrats.

    Steve57 (99bd31)

  416. You note how the report of the PDB came out nine month later, the previous Clinton PDB, two years before was not referenced in most places,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  417. Except that Stanley Ann Dunham was proud of her baby boy and wanted his real father’s name on the official record of his birth so he couldn’t be denied, so when he grew to be a man he’d be proud of himself and proud of her. She saw him as a child of destiny, the son of an important historical figure, and Stanley Ann was determined to preserve a link to his true identity. She owed her bastard son at least that much, any mother does. Remember, there were no DNA paternity tests in 1961.

    For public consumption Stanley Ann pretended Obama Sr was the baby’s father. But when it came to the official record of her son’s birth she couldn’t bring herself to betray the truth of his parentage. Caught on the horns of a dilemma, forced to live a lie, yet unwilling to deny the truth, she made sure an official record existed to verify the father’s identity while still pretending it was someone else.

    Now you’re being even more ridiculous. Listen to yourself! Even if such an incredible story were true, how could you or anyone else possibly have come to know of it? It’s not just speculation, but speculation that no sane person could possibly take seriously.

    Explain, if you can, why young Stanley would attach such peculiar importance to “the official record of her son’s birth”. And why would any mother “owe” her child “to preserve a link” to his bastardy, while otherwise going to lengths to hide it? It makes no sense.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  418. Also at #385, you wrote: Arpaio is a disreputable fraud…

    Let me again refer you to my comment at #340:

    If Sheriff Joe isn’t your cup of tea, there are dozens of such examinations readily available. Type Barack Obama’s phony birth certificate into your search engine, pick one and see what you find.

    Every single source I will find is at least as disreputable.

    But, of course you didn’t do your homework. Instead you smeared a man many open minded Americans respect. Afraid of the message and too lazy to inform yourself, you smear the messenger. Then to top it off you make the absurd claim that copyrighting a report “…is enough to disqualify it from any serious consideration.” Now, that’s just plain stupid. I read your comments, you know better.

    Far from stupid, it’s the plain truth. Serious research is open to challenge; anyone who hides their so-called “research”, and purports (futilely) to prevent anyone from citing it to debunk it, shows that the research is not serious. Imagine if Michael Mann had done that; he’d be laughed out of town.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  419. Imagine if Michael Mann had done that; he’d be laughed out of town.
    Err, he was, anyway, and still is.

    Gazzer (b21aba)

  420. Violence never fixes anything… unless something needs a real ass whuppin’

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  421. Err, he was, anyway, and still is.

    Only by people who know the facts. His colleagues stand by him, because he appears to obey the forms they’ve come to expect. If he had tried to use the law to prevent anyone from even trying to debunk his work, he’d lose even that backing.

    Milhouse (7999ec)

  422. Tell that to Mark Steyn.

    Gazzer (b21aba)

  423. Romney Sr. Who, in my opinion, was indeed ineligible. I also believe Cruz to be ineligible

    Doesn’t matter. Jus sanguinis is the law.

    Art Deco (ee8de5)

  424. Milhouse… using one’s imagination to picture what different posters might look like is a lot of fun, though sometimes the mental picture is way off. I picture you wearing a top hat, monocle, white gloves, spats, and a cane… sort of like Mr. Peanut… am I in the ballpark?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  425. #433, Milhouse, that’s all covered up-thread.

    #434, You high handedly dismiss Sheriff Joe’s evidence out of hand, and you won’t look at the evidence others have collected because you claim Every single source I will find is at least as disreputable. Without even looking at it!

    You close your mind, you close your eyes, and you claim I’m being ridiculous. What nonsense, what absolute nonsense.

    Now, for your strawman: A copyright doesn’t hide research nor does it prevent anyone from citing it, pro or con. A copyright helps prevent dishonest writers from twisting the research to fit their preconceived conclusions. It’s intended to ensure the work will be correctly attributed to its actual author and that it will be cited accurately.

    PS: Interesting you mention Michael Mann – birds of a feather?

    ropelight (09f907)

  426. I won’t say Milhouse is the least serious what passes for thinking mammal around here, I seem to remember Rico complimenting him within the last month.

    But he is an incorrigible asshat.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  427. What a different teenager was up to, 70 years ago this month.

    http://research.archives.gov/description/299779

    Statement given by Staff Sergeant Norman Hollen, Company B, Fifteenth Infantry to First Lieutenant Abraham Weiner, Fifteenth Infantry, describing the actions Sergeant Audie L. Murphy took to singlehandedly clean out an entire enemy position on August 15, 1944., 12/1944

    Audie Murphy. Not a gentle giant. In all senses of the words. But in a good way. SGT Murphy was 19 here.

    Steve57 (99bd31)


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