Patterico's Pontifications

8/9/2014

Denying A Young Woman The Right to Effectively Defend Herself

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:09 pm

[guest post by Dana]

Untitled-1
(photo via Fox News)

Private Ivy League school Dartmouth College made the news recently when they denied student Taylor Woolrich’s request to carry a gun on campus to defend herself against a stalker:

Woolrich was 16 years old and working in a San Diego café when she says a man came in to buy coffee and then kept returning throughout the day, staring at her for long periods of time and trying to flirt with her. The man, 67-year-old Richard Bennett, kept this up for days, she says, even sitting outside the store for an entire day and then following her home, demanding that she talk to him and saying he was “trying to protect her.”

She filed a restraining order, but it did little to keep Bennett away. Woolrich says he constantly harassed her during her first two years at Dartmouth, stalking her on social media and sending messages in which he “promised” to fly across the country to see her at college.

“I thought they were empty threats, but when I came home from school last summer, he was at my front door within eight hours of my plane landing,” she said. “That’s when I realized how serious it was.”

Woolrich and her family called the police, and Bennett was arrested. A search of his car uncovered a slip noose, a knife, gloves and other items.

Bennett is currently in jail in San Diego County, accused of violating the restraining order and felony stalking, as well as other charges. His next court date is Aug. 20. If convicted, his maximum sentence would be four years.

While speaking at a Students for Concealed Carry conference in Washington D.C. recently, Woolrich revealed more details of her story:

“When he was arrested by police they found a so called Rape Kit in the back of his car,” said Taylor. “It consisted of a duct tape, a rope tied into a slip noose, and various other items.

Woolrich said Bennett has even attacked her boyfriend.

“He threw coffee on him and said he’s never to speak to me again,” said Taylor. “I then got an emergency restraining order. When I returned to work the next morning, he was standing there.”

“He [Bennett] found me at Dartmouth. He found my sorority.”

Woolrich, who is 20 years old, made inquiry while still in California about a concealed carry license and was told that she must be 21 in order to get one. However, the Sheriff’s Licensing Division informed her that exceptions can be made due to extenuating circumstances – both in California and New Hampshire.

Woolrich subsequently made known her extenuating circumstances to Dartmouth officials, but her request was still denied:

It’s [carrying a gun] strictly prohibited and we are not in the habit of making exceptions,” spokesman Justin Anderson told FoxNews.com. “But we certainly do everything we possibly can to make all our students feel safe.”

“We feel that it is a top priority,” he added. “We are equipped and committed to providing the best safety possible for all our students.”

So, what did Darmouth do to help keep Woolrich safe and how did that option work out?

Dartmouth’s Department of Safety and Security told her that instead of carrying a gun, she should call campus security and arrange for an escort if she felt unsafe after dark. But she says she was often asked to justify her requests when she called, and security officers gave her a hard time for calling often.

“What they don’t understand is that it’s not enough,” she says. “Stalkers just don’t only show up after dark. Unless they have an armed guard in front of my dorm room, I’m not sure how safe I will be. I don’t think there’s much an unarmed guard can do.”

Ironically, New Hampshire gun laws are fairly liberal:

It is unlawful to carry a loaded handgun in any vehicle or concealed about one’s person without a license. Exceptions to the above prohibition are: carrying in one’s dwelling, house or place of business; law enforcement and military personnel when on duty; organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive firearms.

A person may carry a handgun openly upon his person or unloaded and exposed or locked up in a vehicle without a license to carry. To obtain a license to carry, a person must apply to the selectmen or mayor or chief of police of the town where he is a resident. The selectmen or mayor or chief of police shall issue a license to the applicant authorizing him to carry a handgun if he is a suitable person to be licensed and has good reason to fear an injury to his person or property or has any other “proper purpose.” Hunting, target shooting or self-defense shall be considered proper purposes. The license shall be valid for all allowable purposes regardless of the purpose for which it was originally issued.

So, what do you do when a viable option to solve a problem is not only as plain as the nose on your face, but unfortunately said viable option has been made into as much of an anathema as the original problem it seeks to solve – and by the same group of people?

Dartmouth shames itself, especially in light of the college hosting this event last month, as well as very recently finding itself facing a federal investigation for possibly violating the Title IX federal gender equity law requiring universities to ensure and maintain a safe learning environment for all students.

This week, Woolrich wrote an open letter to Darmouth. In part:

I feel that I have no control over my life. My family was forced to move. I have had stay indoors, keep drapes closed, avoid posting on social media sites, and even change my car. It’s almost like being held hostage.

Should myself and other female victims just have to put up with this? The answer, hopefully, is “no.” Women must be able to defend themselves. The most effective way of doing this is by using a gun. When police arrive to enforce a restraining order, it is usually too late.

One option Woolrich is considering is to leave Dartmouth and transfer to another campus.

Whatever you do, Dartmouth, don’t let a young ballsy independent woman assume the responsibility to defend herself in a way that she, at the very least, would feel safe. Keep her depending on you to do the job instead (no matter how woeful those efforts might be). Because patriarchy.

Note: You can read the pro-gun rights Crime Prevention Research Center’s study here which reports “[T]here have been no reported problems or issues with college-age permit holders on campuses in the nine states – Colorado, Florida,Wisconsin, Utah, Pennsylvania,Oregon, Mississippi, Kansas and Idaho – whose laws mandate that students and others be permitted to carry concealed handguns on public college grounds.”

–Dana

126 Responses to “Denying A Young Woman The Right to Effectively Defend Herself”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  2. Dartmouth for some reason is pro-stalker and wants to let stalkers all over America know that the Dartmouth campus is festooned with undefended rape-candy.

    This is a choice Dartmouth is making.

    And the rape-candy is paying them lots of good monies to make this choice!

    It’s all very perplexing from a policy perspective, but there’s just no accounting for any of these people.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  3. How many movie stars are being stalked right now? Why aren’t they speaking up about this and coming to her aid? Oh, right, guns!

    felipe (40f0f0)

  4. What is the DoJ’s take on this?

    did they not start a campaign against rape on college campuses?

    Michael Ejercito (becea5)

  5. She should transfer to a college/university in FL. As a CA resident,
    she can get a FL CCW issued to her CA residence that will allow her to carry in FL,
    and about 35 other states (but not in CA – which honors no other state’s CCW’s,
    and neither do other states honor CA’s very rare CCW’s).
    But, with that history of a stalker, she should pursue (if she hasn’t already) applying
    for a CCW with the San Diego authorities, just because.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  6. She seems smart so why pay good money to an institution that violates your constitutional rights? Sheesh, people we have other choices.

    Gazzer (e04ef7)

  7. She needs to transfer. Make noise leaving, quietly arrive.

    Or put five rounds, center of mass, into the goblin. Transferring is cheaper and easier on the psyche.

    Shooting the administrators is not recommended (unless they also become stalkers.)

    htom (412a17)

  8. The real solution for Miss Woolrich is to get an apartment across the river in VT (not even 3 miles from campus). She can carry to her heart’s content on our side of the Connecticut.

    For those who might not be aware, Vermont’s “gun laws” reduce to this:

    Don’t carry in a gov’t building
    Don’t carry in a school
    Don’t carry loaded in a car
    Don’t carry with the intent to breach the peace

    That’s it. Follow those 4 simple rules and your M1911A1 can ride proud on your hip or it can live inside your jacket and you’re square with the law. No permits, no gov’t entanglements, no nothing.

    Captain Ned (ff2d65)

  9. She should be carrying in school, though.

    SarahW (267b14)

  10. She should be carrying everywhere she goes.

    SarahW (267b14)

  11. That third item above is problematic.
    Vermont is quirky.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  12. we should all be able to carry, anywhere we choose, as long as we do so responsibly…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  13. Once again, I agree with red. And I do, BTW.

    Gazzer (e04ef7)

  14. In every age and culture there have been groups of people who devoutly believed that they were put upon Earth by Divine Providence to tell the rest of us what to do. While such groups have included the odd true Statesman, or genuine Leader, they are, on average, vicious, stupid, arrogant little twits.

    We complain a lot about the Western Lefty Intellectuals here, and we should, but they are the current group of self-selected Anointed, and annoying as they are they are sooooooo much weaker than most of their predecessors. It is historically normal for the Self Selected Elite to have firm control of the Military (when they don’t they are usually the LATE self-selected elite). Far from controlling the Military, the Lefties despise it, do not understand it, don’t know how to use it, and are broadly distrusted by it. It is also historically normal for the self-selected elite to disarm the common folk, and to do so to such effect that some very peculiar Martial disciplines have grown up around using farm tools as weapons. And this bunch would LOVE to get the guns out of our hands … and they just can’t seem to manage it. Gods, that must make them frantic.

    C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801)

  15. Getting a CCW in NH is very simple.

    1. Fill out a 1 page form.

    2. Go to city hall or the police station. (Varies per local)

    3. Pay fee of $10.

    Within 2 weeks you will have your CCW. No pictures or prints required. CCW is good for 4 years. Remember, no reciprocity with pretty much any Libtard run state with the exception of Vermont.

    I wrote about this last week.

    If she lives off campus, she can carry with no issue. As for Dartmouth? Time for a lawsuit. If that scumbag gets out and murders her on campus, then the entire administration, (those making the policies), need to be criminally charged with aiding and abetting murder.
    (Yeah, I’m not a lawyer. So ignore me!)

    angry webmaster (c2a001)

  16. Since almost no colleges allow carry even if the state does, her best but very expensive option is to hire perfessional security, they can carry a gun.

    She should also read “The Gift of Fear.”

    Fredlike (d1e6d5)

  17. she’s not being very responsible about her safety, staying at Dartmouth

    if i were her daddy I’d put my foot down and say now look here sweet princess

    we gotta get you somewhere you gonna be safe

    now go make daddy some fishsticks

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  18. and don’t skimp on the tarty sauce

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  19. You would think Dartmouth would be a little more sensitive to threats like this after the “Dartmouth Murders” in 2001.

    Bill C (8ae564)

  20. Fredlike (d1e6d5) — 8/9/2014 @ 5:20 pm

    CO and UT allow CCW’s to carry on state campus’.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  21. 15- But, do students at Darmouth qualify as NH residents for the purpose of CCW issuance.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  22. She should still carry a pistol. As they say, better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6.

    Worc1 (e18095)

  23. If this young woman is hurt, or some other, as a result of these uni administrators taking these foolish positions, the likelihood of murderous revenge by fathers, uncles, brothers increases with the ongoing collapse of morality and responsibility in the upper and intellectual classes.

    We have reached the appalling state that a father knows that if his daughter were hurt by the madman, and could not defend herself by reason of this insane fiat from Dartmouth, neither he nor his girl would receive justice. Many fathers would and will run amok.

    Ah well, tree of liberty, necessary blood and so on, but sad, even so.

    Fred Z (ee968d)

  24. I would have reservations about enacting legislation requiring all colleges to permit the carrying of firearms by students.

    I would be amenable to legislation requiring colleges to have minimum personal security measures, such as a fortified perimeter, armed guards manning the gates and towers, armed security details for all students- while allowing for exemptions from this policy if the school permitted its students to carry arms without restriction.

    Michael Ejercito (becea5)

  25. the carrying of firearms by students at colleges and universities is a civil right, a human right

    just as it is most everywhere else

    especially as sad sad failmerica becomes increasing fascist brutal and arbitrary by its very nature

    to say nothing of seung-hui cho

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  26. Angry webmaster, does New Hampshire have a “No Guns” sign law? If it does, then she commits a crime, possibly a felony, if she carries on posted premises like Dartmouth.

    I think it’s pretty cavalier to tell a young girl, looking to get an education and make something of herself and her life, to possibly throw away her future by carrying a gun illegally. She shouldn’t need to live like a food stamp in Chicago’s South Side. For that matter, food stamps in Chicago’s South Side shouldn’t have to live like food stamps in Chicago’s South Side in America.

    nk (dbc370)

  27. i’m thinking of moving to chicago, but for sure not the “South Side”

    mostly cause of the putative “crime problem” they got down there

    also cause i hate commuting

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  28. when she’s gone

    when she’s gone

    dartmouth will miss her when she’s gone

    dartmouth will miss her by her hair

    dartmouth will miss her everywhere

    or not

    dartmouth is something of an enigma

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  29. Men can often defend themselves physically from another’s attack. Women are less able, so according to liberal legal theory it is discriminatory as it affects women disproportionately.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  30. If you let them have guns they will no longer want to work in the kitchen and you will have to buy them shoes.

    highpockets (d74597)

  31. Come to Addison and Pulaski, on the Northwest Side. It’s a nice neighborhood with a pan-Asian & sushi restaurant, an Italian restaurant, a Colombian restaurant, a 7-11, two taverns, nice apartments as affordable as any in Chicago, lots of buses and within walking distance of two L-stations 20 minutes from downtown (and two Metra train stations if you work in the suburbs), a fresh market, and only two half-way houses (and one of those is a women’s). Here’s a google view. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.946184,-87.727379,3a,90y,304h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWNCwIVjBvHkZEf7ULKcGjw!2e0!6m1!1e1

    nk (dbc370)

  32. i’ll for sure bookmark that

    20 minutes isn’t bad as long as none of those ebola people are on the train

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  33. omg that looks like real america

    i’m sold

    i just need a place there with a sunny balcony for the watermonkeys

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  34. funny thing was

    i love hiking so i googled “chicago hills”

    i got back stuff like

    “i think there’s this sort of knoll over by the lake at this one park”

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  35. There will be Cubs fans going to Wrigley Field when the weather is nice but you’ll be fine as long as you don’t make eye contact.

    nk (dbc370)

  36. there’s a lot of tagging there but

    let’s be real

    they tagged my alley here just last weekend

    that’s just what america is anymore

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  37. i never been to wrigley field my whole life, not even driving by

    for some reason i thought they demolished it

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  38. The second amendment should be what all elections are about. The republicans seem stubborn not to make it “The Issue”.

    mg (31009b)

  39. Getting back to the young lady’s problem, I would let John Travolta/Nicolas Cage educate her:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klCemtBU1cg

    Simon Jester (cc57df)

  40. for some reason i thought they demolished it

    I think the Cubs keep it for luck.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  41. The second amendment should be what all elections are about. The republicans seem stubborn not to make it “The Issue”.

    But it isn’t. Elections are about the economy and foreign affairs, with each party saying why they will do a better job.

    I would like, however, to see each candidate for president asked what they think about the 2nd Amendment, and in particular if the RKBA includes self-defense outside the home. I would hope that no GOP candidate who flunks that could be nominated (looking at you Do-nut Boy).

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  42. omg this is like the best neighborhood ever

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  43. except i suppose that’s three units
    but still
    it’s super-america

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  44. …to make all our students feel safe.

    Note that it’s not to actually be safe but to feel safe. Because to be safe one would have to admit there is evil in the world. And that flies in the face of Peace Studies 101.

    Like the security ambassadors (unarmed security guards) around USC. Ambassadors. Three dead Chinese students and counting.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  45. I would be amenable to legislation requiring colleges to have minimum personal security measures, such as a fortified perimeter, armed guards manning the gates and towers, armed security details for all students- while allowing for exemptions from this policy if the school permitted its students to carry arms without restriction.
    Michael Ejercito (becea5) — 8/9/2014 @ 6:17 pm

    Cos that worked so well at Fort Hood?

    Gazzer (e04ef7)

  46. Good point, Patricia.

    Dana (4dbf62)

  47. Kevin M (b357ee) — 8/9/2014 @ 6:53 pm

    Mr. Jefferson proclaimed that “all Men are created equal”,
    Mr. Colt smoothed out the disparities of Mother Nature.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  48. Captain Ned,

    Uhm, your list is correct except for the third item.
    It should read, ” Do not carry a loaded RIFLE in your vehicle. ”
    You can carry your handgun any way you want to, here in Vermont. Why rifles? You know, deer jacking, and all.

    cap'n john's nephew (f675d5)

  49. Captain Ned,

    Your list is correct, except fir the third item. It should read “Don’t carry a loaded RIFLE in your vehicle”. You can carry your handgun any way you want to in Vermont, except Burlington ( for the moment).

    Why not your rifle? You know, deer-jacking and all.

    cap'n john's nephew (f675d5)

  50. Sorry for the double post.

    cap'n john's nephew (f675d5)

  51. happyfeet, if you do move to Chicago, let me know and I will be “happy” to show you around. The area in the 3100 block of Lawndale is very nice as you noticed. As for the southside, actually there are a number of neighborhoods that are very beautiful, some mixed race and some all black. I hate the democrats here but the city is actually a pretty cool place. Peace.

    Ipso Fatso (10964d)

  52. We let those brave teachers at Sandy Hook get slaughtered because their FUNDAMENTAL right of self defense was infringed upon. I think everyone should have the right to carry at least a minimum gun – a 38 revolver – without restriction.

    EPWJ (db4127)

  53. This is not a question of Taylor Woolrich defending herself, it’s question of her feeling psychologically comfortable.

    Her stalker is in jail, and how does she know she would get the drop on him? (or does she fear only him announcing himself and only attacking her if she refuses to do somethinbg?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  54. Sammy

    The constitutional right for self defense – there must have been a reason why its the 2nd amendment.

    EPWJ (fa0e23)

  55. There was a New Jersey cop in the news recently for scoffing at a person who claimed his rights were being abridged by saying to him that since the president ignores the Constitution, so can he.

    Get with the program, Taylor Woolrich.

    Mark (1c4a55)

  56. There is no constitutional right to self-defense. It’s by common law, statute, custom and usage. Unless you want to imply it in the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth or mine it in the Ninth.

    Sammy, Sammy, Sammy. How the girl chooses to protect her peace of mind, her person, and her property is her business. “Psychologically comfortable”! You should blush!

    nk (dbc370)

  57. As for the southside, actually there are a number of neighborhoods that are very beautiful, some mixed race and some all black.

    The city in question apparently has a new nickname.

    Topix.com, November 2012: I call it Chicongo and I’m black. I’m sick of black thugs giving these redneck racist ammunition. I have no sympathy for black thugs. I say build more prisons. I blame thugs for all of the problems in the black community. I’m not ashame to say I hope they knock each other off, but not at the expense of innocent people.

    90-plus percent of black America leans left or favors and votes for liberals/Democrats.

    People who buy into the idea that liberalism, unlike conservatism, makes for a kinder, gentler America should always keep that statistic in mind.

    Mark (1c4a55)

  58. nk

    I would respectfully disagree – the militia was for self defense at the time of the constitution

    EPWJ (9dacda)

  59. There is no constitutional right to self-defense. It’s by common law, statute, custom and usage. Unless you want to imply it in the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth or mine it in the Ninth.

    Under a Glucksberg analysis, it is thus deeply rooted in our nation’s history and tradition.

    Michael Ejercito (becea5)

  60. nk, the right of self defense, at least in one’s home is clearly held to b a Const right in Heller and McDonald. The Ninth and Seventh Circuits and a District Court in DC have extended that to outside the home.

    SPQR (c4e119)

  61. #60,

    I’m pretty sure they had self-defense in mind when they wrote the 14th, at least its extension to the freedmen.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  62. nk (dbc370) — 8/10/2014 @ 7:22 am

    The Right to Self-Defense is grounded in the “unalienable Rights” documented by Mr. Jefferson in his Declaration – Rights “endowed by (our) Creator” such as “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”.
    If we have a God-given Right to Life, then we are presumed to have the Right to defend that Life.

    Though I have not read Heller in its entirety, I would think that J. Scalia would have been remiss in not referencing these words of Mr. Jefferson in his opinion. Absent evidence to the contrary, I believe that J. Scalia would have made such a reference.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  63. EPWJ (9dacda) — 8/10/2014 @ 7:49 am

    the militia was for self defense at the time of the constitution

    The lobbying of the National Guard Association, whose president, Charles Dick, was a Congressman from Ohio, Chairman of the Militia Committee, and the chief proponent of the Militia Act of 1903, completely confused the meaning and the history of the word “militia. They had successfully in the previous 3 decades got just about every state to change the name of the militia to “National Guard.”

    The militia was an organized body of men. There was and is no such thing as the “unorganized militia”

    What I like is the idea of a right to take medicines that might be cures, and certainly to discuss this freely.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  64. nk (dbc370) — 8/10/2014 @ 7:22 am

    Sammy, Sammy, Sammy. How the girl chooses to protect her peace of mind, her person, and her property is her business. “Psychologically comfortable”! You should blush!

    It’s true, she may have a right, especially if it causes no harm. But it is not really defense, it’s her peace of mind.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  65. Dartmouth has pretty much capsized to the left in recent years. Too bad. It’s a nice place. When I was there 20 years ago, we used to go shooting at an old sand quarry right near the campus. She needs a small auto to carry in a purse. Walther PPK is a nice one.

    Mike K (b5c01a)

  66. Sam the Sham needs to get out more.

    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    of course, as currently written 10 U.S. Code § 311, is discriminatory, since it only references males, but it still, unexpectedly, proves our resident expert wrong.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  67. Being wrong is what Sammy lives for.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  68. I sense a “sammalanche” Look out below!

    felipe (40f0f0)

  69. It’s true, she may have a right…,

    … how white of you. she “may have a right”.

    you will forgive me, but i’m drawing a blank on where the DoI & Constitution prevaricated on the subject of individual human rights.

    fascist much?

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  70. thanks mr. Fatso I’m hoping to know by end of next week

    happyfeet (8ce051)


  71. The militia was an organized body of men. There was and is no such thing as the “unorganized militia”

    What I like is the idea of a right to take medicines that might be cures, and certainly to discuss this freely.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 8/10/2014 @ 10:46 am

    Well, the Supreme Court disagrees with you. Refer to red’s comment. Your statement is wrong, very wrong.

    Bennett is currently in jail in San Diego County, accused of violating the restraining order and felony stalking, as well as other charges. His next court date is Aug. 20. If convicted, his maximum sentence would be four years.

    Reread the post Sammy. While Bennett is currently in jail, that doesn’t mean he will stay in jail. If convicted his sentence could me the maximum of 4 years, but if convicted, that doesn’t mean he will get the maximum. They could say, time served and probation by going to a psychologist.

    Tanny O'Haley (87b2aa)

  72. 67. of course, as currently written 10 U.S. Code § 311, is discriminatory, since it only references males, but it still, unexpectedly, proves our resident expert wrong.
    redc1c4 (abd49e)

    “Unintended consequences” aside on that:

    Back in 1981, there was a decision in Rostker v. Goldberg regarding the Selective Service Act.
    It was challenged as discriminatory because women didn’t have to register.
    The Supreme Court decision, written by Rehnquist, was that such was acceptable because women couldn’t serve in combat roles.
    Now of course women can serve in combat roles. Sort of. Kind of. (Well, they said so.)

    That would seem to suggest that Selective Service Act is now effectively officially discriminatory.
    Whether that would extend to the Militia Act of 1903 (as subsequently amended) making only men members of the unorganized militia would be an additional issue.

    Of course I haven’t heard anyone lining up to file challenges, but I’m sure they will come out of the woodwork if a non-”progressive” ever becomes President.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  73. #5

    But, with that history of a stalker, she should pursue (if she hasn’t already) applying
    for a CCW with the San Diego authorities, just because.
    askeptic (efcf22) — 8/9/2014 @ 2:45 pm

    This would be futile as the San Diego Sheriff, William Gore of Ruby Ridge fame, is still not issuing permits even though he lost at the 9th Circuit in Peruta v. Gore. He is waiting to find out if Commie Harris is going to be allowed to intervene in an appeal even though she argued against being included in the original lawsuit.

    For all the lawyers in the room, just how long after a court ruling do you have to wait before you can sue the looser personally for not complying with court orders? What I mean is how long before the Sheriff is personally responsible for violating the rights of citizens by refusing to follow a very clear directive from the Court of Appeals? When does the unlimited immunity for his actions evaporate?

    Easy Target (3e5d1d)

  74. “[T]here have been no reported problems or issues with college-age permit holders on campuses

    You can damned sure bet that the instance there is, there will be much caterwauling, wailing, and gnashing of teeth as a result.

    Smock Puppet, "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." (225d0d)

  75. You can damned sure bet that the instance there is

    “Instant”… DOH!!

    Smock Puppet, "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." (225d0d)

  76. ET, she was told by SD authorities that an exception could be made on a case-by-case basis because of the stalker. She should at least find out, by applying, whether they will or will not issue her a CCW (and I, as an FFL in SoCal, am quite familiar with Sheriff Gore’s position, and the Peruta case).

    askeptic (efcf22)

  77. “The militia was an organized body of men. There was and is no such thing as the “unorganized militia”

    72. Tanny O’Haley (87b2aa) — 8/10/2014 @ 2:44 pm

    Well, the Supreme Court disagrees with you.

    That’s true. It was taken in. Nobody alerted them that this about what the militia meant was all wrong, and nonsense. Legal opinions are not all that good a source of history. I am sometimes surprised by how careless the Supreme Court is on things.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  78. Bennett is currently in jail in San Diego County, accused of violating the restraining order and felony stalking, as well as other charges. His next court date is Aug. 20. If convicted, his maximum sentence would be four years.

    Tanny O’Haley (87b2aa) — 8/10/2014 @ 2:44 pm

    While Bennett is currently in jail, that doesn’t mean he will stay in jail. If convicted his sentence could me the maximum of 4 years, but if convicted, that doesn’t mean he will get the maximum. They could say, time served and probation by going to a psychologist.

    He’s likely to stay in jail for a while – let’s say half a year to a year and a half. It is not a problem for now. You could say maybe she needs to get a permit now because there won’t be a possibility of doing this quickly later.

    If he goes on probabtion, doing anything to contact her could put him right back in jail.

    She’s all the way across the country from him, and he didn’t follow her although he said he would. She only had a problem in California. Even there he didn’t go beyond talk. Now he’s in trouble with the law so should be more careful. And he’s 67.

    I suppose you could argue telling him she has a gun would stop him if the law doesn’t.

    Does she also want to carry a gun on a plane?? (since the main problem is in California)

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  79. For all the lawyers in the room, just how long after a court ruling do you have to wait before you can sue the looser personally for not complying with court orders?

    The Ninth circuit had not issued its mandate yet.

    Michael Ejercito (becea5)

  80. Sammy,

    He’s likely to stay in jail for a while – let’s say half a year to a year and a half. It is not a problem for now. You could say maybe she needs to get a permit now because there won’t be a possibility of doing this quickly later.

    You don’t know that. There’s every reason with our justice system and the history of some judges that he could be let go after his hearing.

    If he goes on probabtion, doing anything to contact her could put him right back in jail.

    The threat of the restraining order didn’t stop him, why would probation? Can you be absolutely sure?

    She’s all the way across the country from him, and he didn’t follow her although he said he would. She only had a problem in California. Even there he didn’t go beyond talk. Now he’s in trouble with the law so should be more careful. And he’s 67.

    Rape kit in car.

    I suppose you could argue telling him she has a gun would stop him if the law doesn’t.

    A gun may not scare him, but would stop him from raping her.

    Does she also want to carry a gun on a plane?? (since the main problem is in California)

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 8/11/2014 @ 1:06 am

    Irrelevant.

    Tanny O'Haley (87b2aa)

  81. Statistically, permit holders as a category are less likely to commit crime than the general population. As has been demonstrated in every state that has passed a permit law.

    Loren (1e34f2)

  82. 78. That’s true. It was taken in. Nobody alerted them that this about what the militia meant was all wrong, and nonsense. Legal opinions are not all that good a source of history. I am sometimes surprised by how careless the Supreme Court is on things.
    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

    Well first, the redefinition of the militia and the creation of the unorganized militia is a legislative rather than a judicial function.

    Second, on the legal end, it is both absolutely derived from history and serves a very direct function.
    Historically, while people claimed to love the concept of the militia and the militia itself, they absolutely hated the training requirements and had less use for the equipment requirements. The active service requirements were right out. As a result, by the time of the Civil War you needed federal armories to equip the militia and had to suppress riots to call them up; by the Spanish-American War they were more trouble than they were worth to employ.
    And so the militia was changed.
    The militia was split up: those who actually wanted to serve became the National Guard; those who didn’t became the unorganized militia. Note however that while unorganized they were still the militia, and thus according to the Constitution subject to being called up for service.
    Of course there were still issues with employing the National Guard overseas, so further amendments were needed to resolve that.

    You might want to review that history part before declaring others are careless of it.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  83. in the meantime she should learn karate and that thing where you crouch down and then jump up and kind of swivel while you lash out with your foot to where you put some hurt on a bad boy

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  84. in the meantime she should learn karate and that thing where you crouch down and then jump up and kind of swivel while you lash out with your foot to where you put some hurt on a bad boy

    happyfeet (8ce051) — 8/11/2014 @ 7:29 pm

    A gun is easier, doesn’t require much strength and is an equalizer for those who are physically less strong. While a gun does require practice, it does not nearly as much practice time as martial art (karate).

    Tanny O'Haley (87b2aa)

  85. With a good instructor, one can learn some self defense moves, FWIW, that doesn’t require extensive training.
    Though I don’t know enough to know how to tell a good instructor.
    But that is alongside the reasonability of having a gun,
    being safe trumps feeling safe.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  86. When seconds count the police are minutes away.

    Tanny O'Haley (85d561)

  87. True, which is also why it might be important to know what to do if jumped with your gun in your purse. A few practiced movements to give yourself a few seconds of separation from the attacker may be necessary to use the gun.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  88. There are some self defense moves that can be learned without extensive physical training.
    They still require significant mental training that is regularly glossed over.
    And of course the moves that require little physical training are rarely the ones showcased in the media as opposed to moves that require 10 years just to be sucky at.

    As for how to tell a good instructor, it is usually easier to list elements of a bad instructor:
    1. Won’t let people watch because his material is “private”. (This is multiplied by several powers of 10 if he won’t let parents watch him teach their children.)

    2. Has “secrets”. (Multiplied by the number of “secrets” he knows.)

    3. Teaches the “best” system. (Multiplied by how much “better” it is than other systems.)

    4. Teaches everyone the same techniques in the same manner to be used against all opponents in all circumstances. (Strongly related to the previous point.)

    5. Has any “special” abilities to hurt people without touching them. (Multiplied by the number of students he “demonstrates” such abilities on.)

    6. Hurts the people he demonstrates on.

    7. Hurts anyone who “scores” on him during free sparring.

    8. Doesn’t expect any student to ever be better than he is.

    9. Charges more than a car payment up front and more than a mortgage payment for “special” events and promotions. (Multiplied by extensive contract lengths. Multiplied again with any “pressure” or worse if anyone wants to quit.)

    If those sound similar to cult warning signs . . . then you understand them.

    - 24 years training, 22 years teaching

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  89. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

    ropelight (2a9e05)

  90. The 2nd Amendment is headed for permanent clarification.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  91. What “clarification” is required for …”the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  92. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Everybody keeps flapping around “militia” and ignores the plain words “the security of a free state”. You have to be armed to protect your state. And it better be a free state. Citizens of slave states need not apply. And not residents of possessions, territories, and Indian lands, neither. No word in there about the security of a person, free or not. Persons can use their teeth and nails for their defense as far as the Constitution is concerned. And don’t tell me the Founders didn’t know when to say “state” and when to say “person” in the Constitution. But going along with the principle that “along with the flower the dirt gets rained on too”, I suppose we can’t keep you from using those guns for your purposes too since you’ve got to have them around anyway. What do you word-torturers think of that?

    nk (dbc370)

  93. . . .
    What do you word-torturers think of that?
    nk (dbc370)

    “Show on the parchment where the bad man redacted you.”

    “BAD TOUCH! BAD TOUCH!”

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  94. nk (dbc370) — 8/12/2014 @ 11:28 am

    Everybody keeps flapping around “militia” and ignores the plain words “the security of a free state”. You have to be armed to protect your state.

    A lot of good that did to the Kurds in 1991 – and now also.

    If you want to defend yourself, you need an air force

    And don’t tell me the Founders didn’t know when to say “state” and when to say “person” in the Constitution.

    They couldn’t say state, because they had to include Vermont. And some territories, like Tennessee.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eebb9)

  95. The Constitution says “state” and “person” all the time, Sammy. But good point. No guns for the Commonwealths of Massachusetts or Virginia, either.

    You do know I’m kidding right? I’m ribbing the “it means a National Guard” boys.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Sam (e8f1ad)

    Sound like you do know a bit about it, do you have your own dojo/club, and are you near Philly?
    They still require significant mental training that is regularly glossed over.
    yes, there is a mindset (not that I need to tell you).
    I had a patient once that was a veteran of Korea. He had a story about once being jumped by a NK, and quickly came to the realization that either he was going to die or the NK was, it was a different mindset to be in.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  97. Sammy, how comforting it is to know that everytime I return to a thread, you will be there – getting everything utterly confused and backwards.

    SPQR (c4e119)

  98. 97.Sam (e8f1ad)

    Sound like you do know a bit about it, do you have your own dojo/club, and are you near Philly?

    No, I help out a friend. (Long story involving me being happy not to be in charge combined with an absurdly serendipitous introduction and subsequent meetings on the subway followed by his opening the school.)
    His school is in the Bronx, Pelham Bay area.

    yes, there is a mindset (not that I need to tell you).
    I had a patient once that was a veteran of Korea. He had a story about once being jumped by a NK, and quickly came to the realization that either he was going to die or the NK was, it was a different mindset to be in.
    MD in Philly (f9371b)

    Well, never having been in combat, or the service, or law enforcement or anything, I don’t present myself as a qualified expert on that part. I have however done my best to confer with people with such experience so I believe I have a useful outsider’s grasp of what is involved.

    Even below the “kill or be killed” level, there is a certain . . . well, “ivory tower” . . . attitude among many instructors as to just what we are teaching.

    Telling some ordinary person just in off the street to use a “spear hand to the eyes” (poking someone eyes out) is real easy to do. Functionally? Have you ever actually touched an eyeball? Especially someone else’s? Or thought about making it pop out of their head? “EWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!” barely covers the basic response.
    Break this, destroy that, tear off the other thing . . .
    Really, no. It isn’t happening, particularly with people who, as I said, watch the media where women disable men twice their size with cute throws that flip them about and kicks with hard-soled shoes that don’t tear skin apart.

    Of course I “could” teach those moves without explaining their potential destructiveness, but that is sort of like teaching someone to shoot without mentioning that bullets kill, unlike in cartoons, and I have morals or something.

    And what to do with children? “This is how we disembowel people Billy!” “YAY!”

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  99. MD, if you’re seriouly looking to take up some kind of martial arts training in the Philly area, and want guidance about what would suit you, you could do a lot worse than to ask Eric Raymond for advice. Tell him I sent you.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  100. NK, you’re exactly right that the purpose of the second amendment was not self-defense. Its purpose was to prevent a would-be tyrannical government from disarming the whole population, in preparation for imposing measures that it fears the militia might rise against. But what the amendment does to achieve that purpose is to forbid the government from disarming people for any reason. Since the militia is the armed populace, if the populace remains armed then the militia remains a force tyrants need to reckon with, and it doesn’t matter why they choose to be armed.

    It would never occur to a tyrant in those days to want his subjects to be defenseless against criminals — that would merely be the unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of preventing them from revolting — so there was no need for the constitution to protect that right. As you say, when you water the flowers the dirt gets wet too, so also when you put up an umbrella to protect the flowers the dirt is protected too.

    Milhouse (9d71c3)

  101. R.I.P. Lauren Bacall

    This week has officially been shot to hell.

    Icy (a124db)

  102. Thanks Sam and milhouse for your responses.
    I asked for interest and will keep your friend in mind, millhouse,
    though there is a dojo here in Philly that teaches a form of Okinawan karate that was highly recommended by someone I respect, and if I get the money and inclination to start (not necessarily in that order), that is where I’ll go first.

    yes, TV…
    though I did see Jack once on “24″ engage and disarm an attacker with a knife the same way I saw it demonstrated in a class once,
    of course, what happened next on “24″ was not in the class.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  103. I teach Okinawan karate – Isshin Ryu.

    Knife defense is a perfect example of the range in teaching and television.
    Most people teach to defend only against the worst type of incompetent.
    Against a real knife fighter, which is rather rare, you won’t even see their blade until you are bleeding out.
    Not many instructors will admit there is something they can’t teach you to defend against.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  104. For knife defense, what you want to practice is your 100-yard dash. Maybe hurdles, too. Run, Forrest, run!

    nk (dbc370)

  105. Sam,
    The Sensai where my daughter once took classes (not in Philly), where my observation is where I learned what little I know, always said that it was always best to avoid a fight, and told of the time he once took a knife as a bouncer in a bar, working his way through college.
    I guess there is something to be said that most of the time when approached by a thug with a knife he knows nothing more than a bit of nonsense on TV, of course, one can never assume that, hence rule #1 always avoid a fight if you can.

    I believe the version I watched was some version of Gojo-Ryu, and we were told that if we wanted to continue here in Philly to try out a place that does Uechi Ryu, which he said was similar.
    But as you can tell, I’m in over my head to continue the discussion.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  106. Gojou-Ryu,
    But as you can tell, I’m in over my head to continue the discussion

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  107. Not Gojou-Ryu, Goju-Ryu (the strike function didn’t work)
    I’m stopping now.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  108. The strike functions works, but you have to use /strike/ not /strikeout/ as before.

    You type a a greater than sign and a lesser than sign with the word strike in the middle to strike out what follows, and the samething except that before the word strike you type a slash / to end the strikeouts.

    You can preview it now to see if you got it right.

    Gojou-Ryu, Goju-Ryu

    Sammy Finkelman (b0c537)

  109. Thanks, Sammy
    what I tried, and what I thought had worked before, was to do the italics function, then substitute “str” for “em”, so you’re saying I needed to write out strike completely rather than just str
    Blah-blah-blah

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  110. Isshin Ryu is a Shorin Ryu daughter with some Goju Ryu additions.
    I don’t know the system but I do know of the system, and I’ve worked out with several Goju Ryu senior instructors.
    Uechi Ryu is, IIRC, an offshoot from Goju Ryu as Isshin Ryu essentially is from Shorin Ryu.
    (Think of it like “The U.S. is an offshoot of Great Britain but the Irish neighborhoods are offshoots of Ireland.”)

    And:

    105.For knife defense, what you want to practice is your 100-yard dash. Maybe hurdles, too. Run, Forrest, run!
    nk (dbc370)

    Basically . . . yes.
    That or:
    Knife-wielding Thug: Gimme your money!
    Person: Here you go. Want my watch too? Don’t forget my car keys. And my jewelry.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  111. No. Acquiescence will get you raped, tortured, maimed, and maybe eventually killed. Most criminals are punks and can only prey on those whom they perceive as weak. They’re also sadists and will enjoy toying with you. You have a better chance by raising the stakes than by folding your hand. Running, fighting, screaming, vomiting on the criminal, increase your chances of survival.

    nk (dbc370)

  112. Don’t forget the all time greatest advise – pee on them.

    JD (43a15e)

  113. i was always terrified at padre island cause of dad said if you get stung by a jellyfish the only way to make it better is for someone to pee on you

    i was a VERY vigilant beachgoer

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  114. Or a scorpion. When my younger brother was stung by a scorpion, my mother treated it by putting the baby’s diaper on it. I use Windex for wasp stings.

    nk (dbc370)

  115. there’s scorpions where i grew up but

    never ever ever heard of anyone getting stung

    i know of more copperhead bites than scorpion stings

    Texas is very australia with all the fun ways you can get bit up

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  116. brown recluse spiders are a bonus

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  117. Ann Barnhardt:

    2. Just as a reminder, as you watch the world descend into war and pestilence, remember, this has all been done intentionally. The Obama regime is the explicit, conscious, declared enemy of western civilization, and really ALL civilization, and EVERYTHING that the still-braindead pundit class is desperately trying to blame on mere incompetence is no such thing. All of this, from the implosion of the economy and the healthcare delivery matrix, to the dissolving of the Mexican border and the attendant invasion of disease-ridden welfare recipients/”voters”, mercenaries and terrorists, to the reformation of the islamic caliphate and genocide of Christians (using U.S. weaponry supplied directly and consciously to the Musloid Brotherhood/al Qaeda/ISIS via the Benghazi beachhead and arms supply depot), to the surrender of Europe to Moscow, is all completely, totally, maliciously INTENTIONAL. If you operate or base an argument from any other premise that this one-and-only TRUE premise, then you are a deluded fool who is wasting everyone’s time with your imbecilic mental masturbation.

    Please wash with soap and hot water.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  118. Ann Barnhardt was really good as Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate.

    nk (dbc370)

  119. 112.No. Acquiescence will get you raped, tortured, maimed, and maybe eventually killed. Most criminals are punks and can only prey on those whom they perceive as weak. They’re also sadists and will enjoy toying with you. You have a better chance by raising the stakes than by folding your hand. Running, fighting, screaming, vomiting on the criminal, increase your chances of survival.
    nk (dbc370)

    Well, no.
    A mugger wants your money. That’s his job.
    Rape and torture are not his jobs.
    Wasting time with those means he isn’t getting money from people.
    It also means taking a chance the victim will escalate when asked for more.
    Escalation means a chance of getting hurt, which means losing the ability to work.
    Preying on the weak also means they are cowards, and cowards are not interested in fights.

    Running, fighting, screaming, vomiting might increase your chances your chances of survival.
    They might also increase your chances of making the criminal mad and escalating his response to “punish” you. (Not to mention vomiting might incapacitate you just as easily.)
    Fighting back against an armed attacker when unarmed is a great way to wind up dead instead of merely out some money and perhaps some mementos.

    It also means possibly having to kill the attacker which brings with it potential criminal charges.
    Or it means failing to be able to kill the attacker and having to deal with a now enraged attacker. That is one of the key mental issues I mentioned – are you prepared to be more brutal than your assailant? If not, you can just as likely enrage him rather than frighten him.

    If you must then you must.
    But if it is not absolutely essential to prevent imminent murder, rape, or kidnapping, then acquiescence is best. Indeed if forced to escalate, previous cooperation is more likely to put the attacker at ease and make subsequent resistance easier.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  120. Sam at #89 and #99 has provided a great resource.

    What you want is a hand-to-hand combat system that your opponent does not know. You want him thinking “WTF?” as he continuously misses with every move he makes until you’re victorious. Preferably, he damages himself with each of those moves. Realistically, this means you learn several (if not many) systems, and to move from one to another in mid-move.

    It also means you learn Gun-Fu (even if it’s illegal to practice it on the street, because the goblin won’t hesitate to use it) and Run-Fu, one of the very best escape techniques. You can’t outrun a bullet, however, so other techniques are useful.

    The Sage says, “It is best … not to be attacked; avoid being a target.”

    htom (412a17)

  121. I know criminals, Sam. Mostly by defending them, but also by investigating them from the other side. They are not professional businessmen. They are punk losers who will take advantage of any weakness they see. They will hurt you for the fun of it, because it’s the only time in their worthless lives they are superior to any other person. They are coyotes who will gnaw off every shred of meat, crack the bone, and suck out the marrow. They are weasels who will kill every chicken in the coop even though they can only eat one. “Take what you want, just don’t hurt me” gets you what I said above.

    nk (dbc370)

  122. And having said all that, people under threat will react as their essential nature dictates. Some will be passive, some will run, some will fight. That’s how criminals win some and lose some.

    nk (dbc370)

  123. Beggars aren’t professional businessmen either.
    And yet they have a “job” that they do well because they make money doing it.

    Yes, there are criminals who are out on a power trip.
    Yes, I expect you defend many of them, mostly because being on a power trip is a great way to attract attention that winds up getting you arrested.
    It also happens to be a great way to get hurt or worse in a fight, which is why fighting back against them works.

    The thing is, just how many ordinary muggings end in injury?
    How many muggings compared to assaults end in arrest?
    Might there be some connection between not hurting people just because you can and not getting arrested?
    Might that not mean that not fighting back unless the criminal escalates the confrontation is safer, especially if the criminal is armed, especially if you are untrained?

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  124. 121.Sam at #89 and #99 has provided a great resource.
    . . .

    The Sage says, “It is best … not to be attacked; avoid being a target.”
    htom (412a17)

    Thank you.

    And yes, that is the supreme self defense technique.

    Sam (e8f1ad)

  125. I use Windex for wasp stings.
    nk (dbc370) — 8/13/2014 @ 7:15 pm

    Sounds like a stereotype from a movie.

    I think we agree on avoiding a fight if you can, if you can’t then be prepared, mentally more than physically, to fight really as your life depended on it, not just “putting up a struggle”.
    Which means for someone trained, I guess, it is good if you have evidence to support why you just crippled a person.

    I once had a patient that was 6’8″ or so and 275 fighting weight in kickboxing, but it only took one illegal blow to his kneecap to destroy his knee and end his career. And again, from what very little I know, if you really fear for your life, it is the “illegal” blows you want to make,
    hence as said before, you don’t want to train just anybody off the street to seriously defend themselves.

    In the incidents each of my boys encountered, there was no polite “give me your money”, it was like clobbered over the head and in a tussle without knowing what was happening. I guess the moral of that story is be aware of your surroundings.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)


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