Patterico's Pontifications

5/17/2014

International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:09 pm

[guest post by Dana]

From the White House press release (yesterday):

Tomorrow, as we commemorate the 10th annual International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia, we recommit ourselves to the fundamental belief that all people should be treated equally, that they should have the opportunity to reach their fullest potential, and that no one should face violence or discrimination — no matter who they are or whom they love.

This year, the United States celebrates the 60th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, the 50th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, and the 45th anniversary of the Stonewall riots. In doing so, we reflect on lessons learned from our own civil rights struggles and reaffirm our commitment to ensuring that the human rights of all people are universally protected.

At a time when, tragically, we are seeing increased efforts to criminalize or oppress LGBT persons, we call on partners everywhere to join us in defending the equal rights of our LGBT brothers and sisters, and in ensuring they are treated with the dignity and respect they deserve.

UPDATE: I have added a list of Ten Signs of Transphobia in our culture:

Denial that the problem exists in the first place.
Inability to distinguish between categories such as queer, gay, lesbian, and trans.
Lack of meaningful discussion in educational and workplace settings.
Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.
Crude jokes directed towards trans people or with trans-related content.
Refusal to accept trans people as one’s own teacher, doctor, politician, dentist, etc.
Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson.
Reducing trans to being merely and solely a psychiatric category.
Trivialization and media spectacles centred on trans-ness as an object of ‘fascination.’
Refusing the fundamental claims of transpeople as being genuinely mis-sexed.

I posted this list because I am (but really am not) surprised such a list existed. There are always those lists… And, at the risk of sounding like a old curmudgeon, it’s all become so damn complicated. I try to keep it simple: treat those around me with the same respect and courtesy that I would like in turn. If that isn’t enough, too bad. If that makes me bigoted, or insensitive, or whatever the new booga-booga flavor of the month Word is, so be it. Life is just too short to be mincing around on egg shells. Oh crap, did I offend someone?

–Dana

278 Responses to “International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia”

  1. Where in the US is GLBT and homosexuality being criminalized?

    JD (590a3f)

  2. ==At a time when, tragically, we are seeing increased efforts to criminalize or oppress LGBT persons…==

    If we had anything resembling a curious and competent press corps they’d ask the WH for specifics about your question, JD.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  3. Bruce and Dwayne are walking down a street when a very pretty young woman walks by. Dwayne sees Bruce checking her out. “Really, Brucie”, he says, “are you going through another identity crisis?” “No”, says Bruce, “but sometimes I wish I were a lesbian”.

    nk (dbc370)

  4. If we had anything resembling a curious and competent press corps they’d ask the WH for specifics about your question, JD.

    Comment by elissa (fcdf94) — 5/17/2014 @ 5:25 pm

    Elissa, if we had anything resembling a curious and competent press corps, the White House wouldn’t dare put out such drivel.

    Bill H (f9e4cd)

  5. I bet the tranny olympics would out draw the regular olympics.

    mg (31009b)

  6. I’ve gotta be somewhere, so in lieu of a specific reply to this thread, I’ll copy and paste what I wrote at Twitchy about the topic:

    The organizers of IDAHOT (formerly IDAHO) are considering updating their branding. “We are currently in our communications promoting May 17th as the ‘Global Day to Celebrate sexual and gender diversities,’ which we believe is the most inclusive formulation possible.”

    Really. “Sexual and Gender Diversities…the most inclusive formulation possible.”

    I’ll leave you alone to think about that for a moment, people. I’ll be right back.

    OK, I’m back. Did you also ponder what “sexual and gender diversities” practiced around the globe might be enveloped by the upcoming “inclusive formulation”?

    Some of you rolled your eyes or winced when you heard quotes from Justice Antonin Scalia’s opinion in Romer v. Evans (1996), or Rick Santorum’s off-the-cuff 2003 interview with an Associated Press reporter in which he, while making a federalist argument against activist jurists, uttered the unfortunate words “man on dog.” Well, now that we are living every day in the Brave New World that Scalia, Santorum, and the late Robert Bork warned was coming, you all better keep your winces to yourselves, lest the Gay-stapo catch you doing anything but nodding your head in approval of their brazen displays of newfound power.

    L.N. Smithee (6796fe)

  7. Just replace the words with “Republican” and see how it reads. Some forms of bigotry are acceptable!

    Simon Jester (a5a853)

  8. Tomorrow, as we commemorate the 10th annual International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia,

    Are you sure this isn’t actually parody from The Onion? If not, you could have fooled me.

    If the occupant of the Oval Office wants to strip out the homophobia in his own self, he should publicize to the world his days spent at bath houses in Chicago and his retreats with Reggie Love. In particular, the one during last year’s Presidents Day holiday weekend, where he ditched the wife and kids — sent them packing to Colorado — and headed over to Florida to spend time with Reggie.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  9. Wow.

    Simon Jester (a5a853)

  10. Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.

    I have no such anxiety. Which is why I P.O. the the trannies.

    “Dude, you have an X and a Y chromosome. You’re a guy. You will never get cancer of the uterus. Why? Because you don’t freakin’ have a uterus.”

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  11. trannies lol

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  12. ==Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson==

    Yeah, I think this might just be the “sign” that jumps the shark for me. WTF????

    elissa (fcdf94)

  13. The NY Times demands that the military allow the transgendered to serve.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/15/opinion/discrimination-in-the-military.html

    No slippery slope here.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  14. Let’s let Loretta explain this, then. [YouTube]

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  15. It’s still OK to discriminate against trans-fat, however.

    Tom (803b51)

  16. The definition of unworkable.

    3.4% of the US population identifies as LGBT.

    Over 70% of the US population identifies as Christian.

    Gays insist Christians can’t get bank accounts.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  17. Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.

    I can tell. It’s not hard.

    nk (dbc370)

  18. A friend of mine was a man and after a sex change she is now legally a woman. As a he, she was very hairy and subsequently spent many thousands of dollars getting body hair removed via laser treatment.

    Which got me to wondering about women who become men.

    Do they get transfurred?

    Tom (803b51)

  19. 16. Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.

    I can tell. It’s not hard.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 5/17/2014 @ 6:35 pm

    I resent the hell having to lie about it though. If you’re a woman who thinks you’re a man, why should I feel obligated to play along any more than if you think you’re Napoleon or Joan of Arc?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  20. An acquaintance of mine had quite a nice little business selling shoes on eBay–specifically extra large size high heel pumps and fashion flats. There are definitely tall women who have large feet–size 12 and up. But she estimated that 80% of her online sales were to men who dressed as women, needed sizes that Macy’s and Bergdorf’s didn’t regularly carry, and who also wanted to be discreet.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  21. I just put up a post expanding the discussion with Bradley Manning’s pending sex-change operation and the V.A. wait-time scandal.

    Dana (9a8f57)

  22. No slippery slope here.

    That incline is now covered in butter, Crisco and DW40, and slanted at an 85-degree angle.

    Watch out below!

    Mark (99b8fd)

  23. If you’re a woman who thinks you’re a man, why should I feel obligated to play along any more than if you think you’re Napoleon or Joan of Arc?

    That’s a very good analogy.

    But you didn’t get my joke.

    nk (dbc370)

  24. Yes, nk, I got your joke. It wasn’t hard.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  25. As to trannys(this is what they have been known as forever);was not long ago that Johnny Depp starred in a movie that mocked a crossdresser as a weirdo. And people msotly laughed. Not sure they could make “Ed Wood” today.

    I wish nobody ill.Nor should anyone cause these people more anxiety nor, it goes without saying, any violence nor harm.Yet let us state the obvious; anyone who would alter their plumbing is almost cetainly very messed up. And all the happytalk in the world is not going to change that. Ther Left and their pals in the MFM again think they can repeal nature and common sense.

    Bugg (f0dbc7)

  26. 24. …I wish nobody ill.Nor should anyone cause these people more anxiety nor, it goes without saying, any violence nor harm.Yet let us state the obvious; anyone who would alter their plumbing is almost cetainly very messed up. And all the happytalk in the world is not going to change that. Ther Left and their pals in the MFM again think they can repeal nature and common sense.

    Comment by Bugg (f0dbc7) — 5/17/2014 @ 7:40 pm

    Well said, sir. I’d be happy to consign the term “tranny” or “trannie” to the ash heap of history except as it pertains to the GM Powerglide or the Chrysler Torqueflite or the Tremec TKO 600 or such as that.

    But mostly because no one can ever really be transgendered. It is not possible. And via cosmetic surgery creating a reasonable physical facsimile of the the opposite gender doesn’t make it true.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  27. Whatevs. You cannot make me give a rip.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  28. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

    Holman

    nk (dbc370)

  29. Not Holman, King James.

    nk (dbc370)

  30. the 10th International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia,

    Is Obama trying to rope in Bush for this?

    This maybe the first year it was recognized by the U.S. government.

    In the Wikipedia page

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Day_Against_Homophobia,_Biphobia_and_Transphobia

    The United States is not listed as a country that gave it official recignition, but only the EU Parliament, Spain, Belgium, the UK, Mexico, Costa Rica, Croatia, the Netherlands, France, and Luxembourg as well as the province of Quebec and the city of Buenos Aires.

    Sammy Finkelman (18bea8)

  31. 1. 2.

    == At a time when, tragically, we are seeing increased efforts to criminalize or oppress LGBT persons…==

    They are not talking about the United States, but countries in Africa, India and Russia.

    Sammy Finkelman (18bea8)

  32. Perhaps they’ll start a hashtag campaign. Yeah. that oughta do it!

    Gazzer (7f8311)

  33. Geez I thought being trans was okay, really ,really I did. However my wife of some 50 years won’t let me date a trans person so I guess I flunk the test.

    Skeptical Voter (12e67d)

  34. I mostly skip over the “chicks with dicks” personal ads, but that’s just me.

    Don’t judge me.

    Don’t you dare judge me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  35. trannies are Outside Of The Mainstream i think

    they’re kinda like those people what buy creme fraiche at whole foods or gelson’s and then want to talk about it

    it’s just awkward

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  36. 33. LOL.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  37. It wasn’t hard.

    they have medication for that too!

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  38. just our of curiosity, did Bam-Bam, or anyone else at the White House go to the trouble of doing this much to remind people it was Armed Forces Day today as well?

    yeah, that’s what i thought.

    priorities are priorities…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  39. Tranma Joe’s sexual ambiguity confused and frightened the children.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  40. I think if a news article word count was done, we’d find that the majority of hate speech encompasses Conservaphobia, KOCHphobia or Christophobia.

    It never seems to be wrong for anyone to express hate (or even threats of bodily harm) against Christians, Conservatives (or even Republicans) or the Koch brothers.

    And have you also noticed that the largest groups screaming and wailing about bullying also contain the biggest most egregious bullies? (Dan Savage I’m looking at you.)

    jakee308 (f1b953)

  41. The NY Times demands that the military allow the transgendered to serve.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/15/opinion/discrimination-in-the-military.html

    No slippery slope here.

    Comment by Kevin M (b357ee) — 5/17/2014 @ 6:22 pm

    No, there really isn’t. You might not know this, but a truly great American, Col. James Pritzker, now self-identifies as Jennifer. I guess you could make fun of her if it makes you feel better.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  42. daley — “mostly?” :)

    carlitos (e7c734)

  43. Would you date Jennifer Pritzker, carlitos?

    nk (dbc370)

  44. No, but I can’t think of a good reason for the military to discriminate against people like her. Can you?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  45. Yes, carlitos, I can.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  46. Bradley Manning.

    nk (dbc370)

  47. “Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson”

    Really?? I have to change? I’m a straight male, how many lesbians dismiss the idea of ever dating me?

    Mike S (189787)

  48. …Transgender medical care “is no more specialized or difficult than other sophisticated medical care the military system routinely provides,” even in combat zones</blockquote

    The fact that the military can provide sophisticated medical care is irrelevant. This point was driven home to me when I discovered Navy medical doesn't routinely do prenatal care.

    Or, rather, since a really complicated pregnancy requires evaquation to someplace like Balboa, they don't look. Lest they find.

    I learned this during a rather heated discussion, in which the doctors at Yokosuka wanted to know where the h*** I got my medical degree. But in the face of the overwhelming evidence from the doctors at the Japanese hospital where I was forced to check my wife into, because the Navy docs just weren't doing the job, they backed down.

    And the Navy paid the bill, because they couldn't provide the care locally.

    So now, carlitos, you imagine I'm going to support the idea the military should be doing gender reassignment surgery when the Navy can't even provide basic medical care to servicemembers and their dependants?

    We have veterans who are dying because the wait to see a doctor at a VA hospital is already too long. Don't think so.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  49. Care to elaborate?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  50. @Steve57 – Whoops. I didn’t hit “refresh” before that last post. I’m not sure where I asked anyone to “support the idea the military should be doing gender reassignment surgery.” Maybe you could point that out in my posts above?

    But, since you brought it up, are you saying that, because the VA does a crappy job at triage and prioritization, a certain type of medical procedure should never be performed? I don’t see how that follows either.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  51. Piss on Bradley Manning, he was born male, enlisted in the Army as a male, and betrayed our country as a male. He can serve out his sentence as a male. After that, he’s on his own.

    ropelight (4695ee)

  52. carlitos, I’m saying that since miltary/naval medicine exists for the needs of the service, it’s on you to explain why supporting transgenders serves the needs of the service.

    Especially since, up until now, the military and naval services have been doing just fine without them.

    I have to say up front I doubt you can make the case.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  53. it’s on you to explain why supporting transgenders serves the needs of the service.

    I think that the military should support everyone who serves, regardless of gender.

    the military and naval services have been doing just fine without them.

    Except for Col. Pritzer and the countless people like her that served our country proudly? What makes you think that there haven’t been transpeople in the military?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  54. Pritzker, that is.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  55. triage and prioritization

    There’s a word for that. It gets a undeserved bad name.

    The word is “discrimination.”

    I discriminate all the time. Such as, between good food and bad. I admit, I have discriminating tastes.

    In the name of discrimination, I say that already thin resources should not be spread thinner.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  56. carlitos, the military wouldn’t have collapsed without Pritzker.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  57. 53. I think that the military should support everyone who serves, regardless of gender.

    Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 5/18/2014 @ 7:51 am

    This is a problem. The lack of focus on why the military exists.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  58. The military is not a welfare society, or a laboratory for social experimentation. It eats up half of our taxes and its job is to defend our country. Not to help freaks achieve self-actualization. It should hire the best persons for the job — the smartest, the fastest, the strongest, the healthiest, the youngest, the most psychologically stable, the most selfless, the most socially responsible. Not weird, little suicidal, self-destructive psychos (like Manning) who will sell out our anti-terrorist operations and get soldiers killed because they hate what they have between their legs. We already have too much low-hanging fruit that make it past the recruiters, we don’t need to pick the ones rotting on the ground.

    What I know about Pritzker is that he’s got daddy’s billions, and an army of lackeys to manage it for him and to buy him good press, and to safeguard him from reality, and nothing more. And I have known soldiers who were the real thing.
    So I don’t automatically believe this “great American” crap.

    And don’t tell me Manning is not representative. Trannies are not representative. I doubt that they are 1/10,000th of the population. That’s not normal by any definition.

    nk (dbc370)

  59. transwhatnots don’t belong under the same umbrellla as Ls and Gs and Bs

    it’s a whole different kettle of bisquick

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  60. *umbrella* i mean

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  61. I like the cut of your jib, nk.

    To use the nautical parlance.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  62. Gotta be a Monty Python skit here somewhere…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  63. If certain people have their way, coronello, the whole US military will be one big Monty Python skit.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  64. carlitos, the military wouldn’t have collapsed without Pritzker.

    Comment by Steve57 (c8cb20) — 5/18/2014 @ 7:53 am

    Another straw man argument. Care to address what I actually said?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  65. To the rear, march… left… left… left left left… left… left… left left left.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. “If our military beats the Islamsits, great.

    But if we lose, just as good. Then we get to denounce the Islamists as a bunch of big, mean homophobes, transphobes, and sexists.

    It’s win win.”

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  67. There is a Monty Python skit, Haiku. On all fours as we lawyers say. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOehDqygaj8

    nk (dbc370)

  68. carlitos @64, with all due respect you didn’t actually say anything. If you can offer something more than meaningless phrases like “I think that the military should support everyone who serves, regardless of gender” which have absolutely nothing to do with making the case why, all of a sudden the military needs transgenders, I’ll respond.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  69. Left, Left, your Left, Left Left.
    This is my rifle
    This was my gun
    This is for shootin’
    and they’re still buildin’ this one

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  70. “daley — “mostly?” :)”

    carlitos – Sometimes they’re pretty damn funny.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  71. Mama, Mama cant you see?
    O, what the Navy’s done to me…
    They sat me down in the chair,
    Then they cut me way down there

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  72. all of a sudden the military needs transgenders,

    Let me try again.

    What makes you think that there haven’t been transpeople in the military?

    You’ve intimated twice that there haven’t been transgendered people in the military. Do you have evidence of this? It reminds me of the people who pretended there weren’t gays in the military.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  73. America does not have classes of people who are entitled to take up arms and of people who are not. But no right is absolute, and there is no more important governmental interest than the defense of our country. We can refuse to enlist paraplegics in the infantry, blind men in the Air Force, and deaf persons in the Signals Corps. We can refuse people with contagious diseases. We can refuse criminals. We can refuse psychos. We can refuse morons. We can refuse mistakes of nature.

    nk (dbc370)

  74. Two old ladys lying in bed

    One rolled over and the other one said

    I want to live the life of danger.

    Build me a dick I’m an Airborn ranger

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  75. The only one I know, carlitos, is Bradley Manning. I don’t count Pritzker because his illness did not manifest until he was out of the military. And if you’re counting congenital testicular feminization syndrome as “transgender”, you’re wrong. Wrong about what testicular feminization is and disingenuous in your argument.

    nk (dbc370)

  76. “You might not know this, but a truly great American, Col. James Pritzker, now self-identifies as Jennifer.”

    carlitos – What makes James Pritzker a truly great American? His money?

    What gender did he claim when he was serving in the military and when he was married and having kids?

    How does what he claims now have any relevance to transgenders serving in the military?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  77. Do you know of any others?

    nk (dbc370)

  78. Back in 1775,
    my marine corps came alive.

    First comes the color blue,
    to show the world we are true.

    Next there comes the color red,
    to show the world the blood we shed.

    For some there comes the color pink
    He’s a girl don’t care what you think

    And finally comes the color green,
    to show the world we’re totally mean. Oooorah!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  79. But, since you brought it up, are you saying that, because the VA does a crappy job at triage and prioritization, a certain type of medical procedure should never be performed?

    Yes, one doesn’t follow the other. That’s why I think the US military’s medical system should also start performing the male enlargement surgical procedure, because I’m sure the psyche of some enlisted men requires that, needs that, will be boosted by that.

    BTW, when it comes to GLBT, the old is new again, before and after the story of Sodom and the biblical character of Lot, before and after the parameters of conservative Christianity. IOW, people should not assume that a disdain of the GLBT agenda is somehow unique to this particular era, is somehow dependent on one’s religion, is somehow associated with political-social trends of the recent past.

    Theguardian.com, November 2007

    Athens in the age of Plato. A big city. A solemn trial. A man accused of attempted murder. He begins to tell his side of the story, how he got into a fight with some worthless creature called Simon. “You see we both lusted after the boy Theodotus…” he explains to the august judges. They nod sympathetically, as if all is now clearer.

    The secret of Greek homosexuality has only ever been a secret to those who neglected to inquire. The Greeks themselves were hardly coy about it. Their descendants under the Roman empire were amazed to read what their ancestors had written centuries earlier, drooling in public over the thighs of boys, or putting words into the mouth of Achilles in a tragic drama, as he remembered the “kisses thick and fast” he had enjoyed with his beloved Patroclus.

    The Romans certainly noticed what they called the “Greek custom”, which they blamed on too much exercising with not enough clothes on. Christians mocked a people who worshipped gods who kidnapped handsome boys like Ganymede, or who, like Dionysus, promised a man his body in exchange for information about how to get into the underworld. Nor was it forgotten in the Middle Ages, when Greek Ganymede became a codeword for sodomitical vice.

    We hear of laws that punished men who “mixed with” or even “chatted” with boys. Xenophon, who knew Sparta better than anyone, says that the Spartan lawgiver had laid down that it was shameful even “to be seen to reach out to touch the body of a boy”. Slaves called “pedagogues” – paidagogoi – were employed by Athenians to protect their sons from unwanted attention, and by Plato’s time there were some people who had “the audacity to say” that homosexual sex was shameful in any circumstances.

    Indeed Plato himself eventually made so bold. At one time he had written that same-sex lovers were far more blessed than ordinary mortals… Now he seemed to contradict himself. In his ideal city, he says in his last, posthumously published work known as The Laws, homosexual sex will be treated the same way as incest. It is something contrary to nature, he insists, and although there won’t be laws against it, nevertheless a propaganda programme will encourage everyone to say that it is “utterly unholy, odious-to-the-gods and ugliest of ugly things”.

    For these and other reasons there has long been debate about the true nature of this Greek custom – what the Greeks called eros, a “passionate life-churning love”, or philia, “fond intimacy”. Was it essentially sublime or sodomitical? A source of anxiety or a cause for celebration? Sometimes the Greeks seemed to approve of it wholeheartedly, even to suggest that it was the highest and noblest form of love. And other times they seemed to condemn it.

    “Ancient Greece” was…a constellation of hundreds of rivalrous micro-states, with their own calendars, dialects and cults – and their own local versions of Greek homosexuality. These revealed very different attitudes and employed very different practices: “We Athenians consider these things utterly reprehensible, but for the Thebans and Eleans they are normal.” Part of the problem (for the Athenians) was that the men in these communities seem not only to have engaged in public “marriages” but that in these places same-sex couples fought together in battle and slept with each other afterwards, a clear reference to the famous “Sacred Band” or “Army of Lovers”.

    ^ The trends that trigger an increasingly debased culture and the trends that discourage such decadence apparently are innate to human nature. So the libertine aspects of ultra-blue San Francisco, as one example, and the traditional aspects of red-state America, as another example, are analogous to Thebans/Eleans versus the Athenians.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  80. carlitos – What makes James Pritzker a truly great American? His money?

    No, it could be his support of the idea that CO2 is causing global warming.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  81. “What makes you think that there haven’t been transpeople in the military?”

    carlitos – What makes you think there have been? Sure a few may have slipped by, but why are they talking about changing rules if it’s not an issue?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. And if you’re counting congenital testicular feminization syndrome as “transgender”, you’re wrong. Wrong about what testicular feminization is and disingenuous in your argument.

    There is another thing that I didn’t bring up. I don’t care about the reasons that someone self-identifies as a certain gender. It doesn’t make me call them freaks or ill. Historically, there has always been a spectrum of sexuality, and there haven’t always been just 2 genders. Unfortunately, most of us are products of our Calvinist forebears, so we like to stigmatize people that we don’t understand.

    carlitos – What makes James Pritzker a truly great American? His money?

    Are you really unaware of what Col. Pritzker has done for the military and our servicemen and women? Seriously?

    http://www.pritzkermilitary.org/

    carlitos (e7c734)

  83. carlitos, your attempt at a rational argument is truly bizarre.

    I have never said that there haven’t been people confused about their polarity who have served in the military.

    I have said the military didn’t need them.

    According to the NYT there are an “estimated” 15k transgenders in the armed forces. I have no confidence in those numbers for a variety of reasons. But let’s take them as given. And according to some brief research, since no one is truly transgendered but can only be a bad copy of the opposite gender, hormones can cost as little as $20 per month.

    That would be $3.6 million a year just to maintain these people at least.

    Why, in hell’s creation, should the military take on this additional burden? Make the case, if you can, carlitos.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  84. Can transgenders get pregnant or adopt kids? Wouldn’t want no discrimination there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  85. Life is just too short to be mincing around on egg shells. Oh crap, did I offend someone?

    The chickens out back are weeping. I think they are offended. :(

    Patricia (be0117)

  86. Unfortunately, most of us are products of our Calvinist forebears, so we like to stigmatize people that we don’t understand.

    I didn’t realize the ancient Greek philosopher Plato was a Christian/Calvinist. That’s news to me.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  87. Got a letter in the Mail, said go to war or go to jail.
    Go to war or go to jaaaiill, said go to war or go to jail.

    Mama mama can’t you see, what the Marine Corps done to me.
    Mama mama can’t you see, what the Marine Corps done to me.

    They sent me to teh Surgery, just to make a girl out of me.
    They sent me to teh Surgery, just to make a girl out of me.

    You should have seen the hole they made, then they gave me a grenade
    you should have seen the hole they made, then they gave me a grenade.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  88. This is not something a rational transgendered person would want to do while on active duty and no supervisory person should want them to do so either. The pre-treatment, surgery, recovery, and post-treatment are each too long and too complex.
    So the .mil medicine units should just recommend discharge because of physical unsuitability for continuing service.

    Whether the VA should then pick up the tab … there was a time I would have said yes (back when the VA did any and every medical treatment any and every vet needed or that was medically desirable — long, long ago that was), but since we’re having “wait until dead” lists, no. Not now.

    The discrimination this crowd faces can be horrid and horrible. Many humans seem to take more joy from abusing their fellow humans than they do from any other behavior. Those are the people who need to be “fixed”. But doing so leads us to the psychological gulags, so probably we shouldn’t do that to them, even though they richly deserve it.

    htom (412a17)

  89. 82. …Are you really unaware of what Col. Pritzker has done for the military and our servicemen and women? Seriously?

    http://www.pritzkermilitary.org/

    Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 5/18/2014 @ 8:43 am

    Not much, carlitos. No matter how much you try to inflate this, not much.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  90. If I die in Vietnam
    Send my body home to mom
    Fold my hands across my chest
    Tell my girl I’ll wear her dress

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. “Are you really unaware of what Col. Pritzker has done for the military and our servicemen and women? Seriously?”

    carlitos – So his money makes him a truly great American?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  92. “Unfortunately, most of us are products of our Calvinist forebears, so we like to stigmatize people that we don’t understand.”

    carlitos – Speak for yourself and spare me your anti-Christian bigotry. My ancestors were not Calvinists.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  93. For carlitos. The history of transgenders in the military.

    The Jeffersons – Once A Friend Part 1 of 3

    George’s Navy buddy has changed.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  94. I’ve never seen that one, nk, that’s good!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  95. As it stands, certain chronic medical conditions disqualify people from joining the military. These are the disqualifying conditions for men.

    Current absence of one or both testicles, either congenital (752.89) or undescended (752.51) is disqualifying.

    Current epispadias (752.62) or hypospadias (752.61), when accompanied by evidence of urinary tract infection, urethral stricture, or voiding dysfunction, is disqualifying.

    Current enlargement or mass of testicle or epididymis (608.9) is disqualifying.

    Current orchitis (604) or epididymitis (604.90) is disqualifying.

    History of penis amputation (878.0) is disqualifying.

    Current or history of genital infection or ulceration, including, but not limited to herpes genitalis (054.13) and condyloma acuminatum (078.11), if of sufficient severity to require frequent intervention or to interfere with normal function, is disqualifying.

    Current acute prostatitis (601.0) or chronic prostatitis (601.1) is disqualifying.

    (8) Current hydrocele (603.0), if large or symptomatic, is disqualifying..

    Left varicocele (456.4), if symptomatic, or associated with testicular atrophy, or vericocele larger than the testis is disqualifying.

    Any right varicocele (456.4) is disqualifying.

    Current or history of chronic scrotal pain or unspecified symptoms associated with male genital organs (608.9) are disqualifying.

    History of major abnormalities or defects of the genitalia, such as a change of sex (P64.5), hermaphroditism, pseudohermaphroditism, or pure gonadal dysgenesis (752.7) or dysfunctional residuals from surgical correction of these conditions is disqualifying.

    Derived from Department of Defense (DOD) Directive 6130.3, “Physical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, and Induction,” and DOD Instruction 6130.4, “Criteria and Procedure Requirements for Physical Standards for Appointment, Enlistment, or Induction in the Armed Forces.”

    I’m still waiting for you to explain to me how allowing certain people with chronic conditions to join the military will benefit the military, carlitios.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  96. I have never said that there haven’t been people confused about their polarity who have served in the military.
    I have said the military didn’t need them.
    ….Why, in hell’s creation, should the military take on this additional burden? Make the case, if you can, carlitos.

    Im very impressed with your intimate knowledge of our military’s workings. That you can come in and make a claim that we suddenly “don’t need” an estimated 15K members must mean you know that each one of those roles is unnecessary.

    They are already in the military and they are now already playing a role. When you say that they are not needed, it means that you have to make the case why the military should not spend the extra money – Not Carlitos.

    Gil (27c98f)

  97. When you say that they are not needed, it means that you have to make the case why the military should not spend the extra money – Not Carlitos.

    Says who? You? If you want to sell me something, you prove to me that it’s worth it or I’ll spend my national defense money elsewhere.

    nk (dbc370)

  98. Wrong, Gil. On so many levels, wrong.

    I don’t mind if you display your ignorance. I in fact welcome it.

    First of all, where does that 15k figure come from? I have no reason to believe it. Neither do you.

    I said:

    I have no confidence in those numbers for a variety of reasons.

    But if you’re going to bandy them about as authoritative, provide evidence.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  99. BTW, Steve was a career officer in the Navy. Lt. Cmdr., Steve?

    nk (dbc370)

  100. People who are serving who develop diabetes are forced out of the service. They’re already “playing a role.”

    Yet they’re not indispensable.

    And people with diabetes aren’t nearly as unstable as people with some form of gender identity disorder. People with diabetes, unlike people with gender identity disorder, don’t have a suicide rate 9 times the national average.

    The irrationality of the pro-transgender types is amazing.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  101. Yes, nk, Lieutenant Commander.

    But let’s all be quiet now so Gil can tell me my business.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  102. why do we have to fight the transphobia

    I don’t understand why we can’t just let it play out

    Nobody tells me anything

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  103. I thought I cc’d you on the email back in 2007, Mr. feets.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  104. my bad you’re right

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  105. I think Carlitos’ points about Col. Pritzker do bear some thought and Pritzker does not deserve quite the mocking he’s getting. The Pritzker Military Museum in Chicago is impressive and worth a visit. It is there and well maintained in a visible place in an historic building and is open to the public because of James Pritzker’s money and his interest in military history and his own long involvement in the military. He was married at the time and had children. When he served there were apparently times when he did some bizarre things like wear nail polish, etc. which raised eyebrows, and there may have been suspicions about him, or other minor “breaches” of code. But I’m not aware that he ever asked to be called ‘Jennifer’ in uniform or that he hit on fellow soldiers of any variety, or wanted to use the ladies’ bathroom. There is no indication at all (again that I have read about) where he ever put troops in danger or betrayed the United States. He did not become “Jennifer” or regularly dress fully as a woman or attend events as a woman until he retired from the Army. He has not expected the Army to pay for treatments, or ever expected them or the President of the United States or the DOD to “validate” him.

    So with all that being said, I hope it’s also clear that I think any attempt to compare Pritzker’s distinct pathology and his road to gender change (along with his contributions both to the military and society) to Manning’s in-your-face outright betrayal of this country’s secrets, is both poorly thought out and disingenuous. It is a strawman to suggest that there is anything similar about Pritzker and Manning, or that self identified transgenders pre-op or post-op are a logical good fit with the active or reserve military’s discipline, purpose, and goals. Trying to convince anyone that openly transgender people should be welcomed into the military and treated as pioneers does not work. As nk said above, the military is not supposed to be a social studies laboratory or a welfare society. Immaterial to any sympathy for his sexual confusion, which I believe is real, and his own desire for surgery and chemicals, Manning is a traitorous scumbag who has been convicted of serious crimes against our nation. (Hopefully) he/she will be kept in military hospitals and prisons for the full 35 years of his sentence. Unfortunately, all that time will be at the taxpayers’ expense. “Chelsea” does not deserve any more “consideration” than that from the military establishment or the citizens of the United States.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  106. Elissa – good point. It seems some believe the US military to be a large social engineering experiment.

    JD (9b6092)

  107. if i were a muslim terrorist and a regiment of armed american trannies attacked I’m pretty sure I’d piss myself

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  108. daley – apologies. Catholic maybe?

    I’m still waiting for you to explain to me how allowing certain people with chronic conditions to join the military will benefit the military, carlitios.

    Comment by Steve57 (c8cb20) — 5/18/2014 @ 9:24 am

    I still haven’t brought up chronic conditions. Why are you and nk bringing up chronic conditions?

    And, again, you are saying “join” the military, as if these folks aren’t already serving.

    People with diabetes, unlike people with gender identity disorder, don’t have a suicide rate 9 times the national average.

    The irrationality of the pro-transgender types is amazing.

    So people who are systematically bullied and discriminated against become suicidal, and it’s their fault? Wow. That is irrational.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  109. So with all that being said, I hope it’s also clear that I think any attempt to compare Pritzker’s distinct pathology and his road to gender change (along with his contributions both to the military and society) to Manning’s in-your-face outright betrayal of this country’s secrets, is both poorly thought out and disingenuous.

    Big applause. Thank you for saying this. I agree completely.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  110. Is Gil imdw?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  111. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_N._Pritzker#cite_note-MilitaryLibraryColonel-7

    The military service is supposed to be the highlight of Cousin It’s life, and all they talk about is service ribbons!

    That’s hysterical.

    Service ribbons are the military equivalent of … {struggling with how to say this without offending also rans of various stripe} …

    Ok. In the Special Olympics, and some Californian schools, if you show up you get a medal.
    You don’t have to play well. You don’t have to win a race or a contest. Just showing up = medal.

    Same same same as a service medal.

    LOL – the Putz-less Putz is bragging on a handful of “just showed up” medals.

    heh. This, when the obverse to “showing up” in the military is called AWAL, and is a criminal offense!

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  112. Cousin It

    Stay classy.

    Also, you didn’t read your own link, which lists about a dozen medals and only 3 or 4 service ribbons. And it’s spelled AWOL.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  113. carlitos, people with gender identity issues have issues. It comes with. No bullying or mocking required. They are, by definition, not happy with themselves.

    And as if people who develop diabetes aren’t already serving? Unless they falsified their enlistment, they develop the condition in the service and are not retained.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  114. “The Pritzker Military Museum in Chicago is impressive and worth a visit. It is there and well maintained in a visible place in an historic building and is open to the public because of James Pritzker’s money and his interest in military history and his own long involvement in the military.”

    elissa – He/she/it is a truly great American because he/she/it is a member of the lucky sperm club.

    What is this systematic bullying and discrimination of which people speak?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  115. Trying to convince anyone that openly transgender people should be welcomed into the military and treated as pioneers does not work. As nk said above, the military is not supposed to be a social studies laboratory or a welfare society.

    Good luck with that.

    And although they may not be the same branches of the federal government, both the CIA and FBI do host exhibit booths at Gay Pride events, at least the ones in DC, and, of course, there was the matter of the US military playing footsies with Nidal Hasan until it was too late.

    The absurdity of the slippery slope knows no limits in today’s era.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  116. More than four of five transgender youth (82%) reported that they felt unsafe at school because of who they were.
    Nearly nine out of ten reported experiencing transphobic or homophobic harassment from peers, and most reported that it happened “often” or “frequently.”
    A majority of transgender students said they had been shoved, pushed, or otherwise physically harassed at school in the last year. Nearly half (44%) of transgender students said they‟ve been punched, kicked, or injured with a weapon on at least one occasion in the last year.
    Three out of four (76%) reported that they had experienced unwanted sexual remarks or touching from peers.
    Large majorities reported both cyberbullying (62%) and the theft or destruction of their property (67%) by peers.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  117. ==he/she/it is a member of the lucky sperm club.=

    daleyrocks, I’d guess that nearly every person who regularly comments on this site is, comparatively speaking, a member of the “lucky sperm club” in many many ways– although certainly not necessarily related to family money. It’s what we as individuals do and accomplish with that whole serendipitous luck of the draw birth thing that matters in life. A lot of people do not recognize this adequately, I think.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  118. Yes, carlitos, I don’t doubt a certain amount of phobia comes with the condition. I don’t see how the fact that they have perceived that slights were committed against them qualifies them for military service.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  119. New post up.

    Dana (9a8f57)

  120. Carlitos, you’re all over the place. You brought up Pritzker. I countered that he was not “transgendered” while in the Army. Bradley Manning is the only one I know of. Got another one of those (snicker) 15,000 besides Manning you could show us? And, more basically, what do you call transgender? Because I don’t even ….

    nk (dbc370)

  121. Carlitos, comment 116. What’s the total number of “transgendered” surveyed there? Let’s start adding them up and see if we can reach 15,000 in the whole country.

    nk (dbc370)

  122. I’m going to log off the interwebs and clean out my garage before the Blackhawks game. In the meantime, here’s some perspective.

    From Dana’s opening post:

    I try to keep it simple: treat those around me with the same respect and courtesy that I would like in turn

    And from the comments:

    Gay-stapo

    no one can ever really be transgendered. It is not possible

    eunuchs

    freaks

    mistakes of nature

    an increasingly debased culture

    decadence

    Cousin It

    Putz-less Putz

    I’m glad that the commentariat here is so secure with themselves that they can mock others. Must be nice.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  123. Carlitos, comment 116. What’s the total number of “transgendered” surveyed there?

    n=295 6th through 12th graders surveyed.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  124. Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 5/18/2014 @ 10:32 am

    Stay classy.

    Since the bar is set at refrain from bragging on my good conduct medal as if I were the reincarnation of Audie Murphy, I think I can clear that hurdle.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  125. Yes. Finally getting to the crux of the matter, Carlitos and Steve57–The idea that we as members of a humane and law abiding society believe people should not be bullied on the street or in schools or at restaurants or at sports stadiums or in their business environments for how they look or who they are, or what they believe, is a completely different discussion than should openly transgender people be welcomed/encouraged into the military discipline (even while accepting that some transgenders certainly slip through and serve while still remaining closeted). Conflating these two disparate issues does not help.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  126. i wonder what a list of ten things trannies can do to make people like them more better would look like

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  127. I’d guess that nearly every person who regularly comments on this site is, comparatively speaking, a member of the “lucky sperm club” in many many ways– although certainly not necessarily related to family money. It’s what we as individuals do and accomplish with that whole serendipitous luck of the draw birth thing that matters in life. A lot of people do not recognize this adequately, I think.

    Comment by elissa (fcdf94) — 5/18/2014 @ 10:56 am

    elissa – yet more applause from me. Great point. When I was in grad school, I started to figure out that socio-economic class seemed to be loosely correlated with how many generations off the boat you were. Being born in the USA gives a lot of us a pretty big leg up on things, and for this we should be thankful.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  128. elissa, I don’t disagree with anything you say.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  129. Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 5/18/2014 @ 11:06 am

    no one can ever really be transgendered. It is not possible

    I claim ownership of this. How is this “hate speech?”

    It’s a declamation of a simple fact. You can change your appearance. You can’t change your gender.

    It’s only by agreement that we can pretend such a thing as “transgendered” exists. I don’t agree, but I admit in this culture I’m the minority voice. But if the agreement breaks down, then all we are left with is people who have mutilated and neutered themselves.

    How am I wrong?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  130. “I’m glad that the commentariat here is so secure with themselves that they can mock others. Must be nice.”

    carlitos – I’m glad you are so secure with yourself you can blame Christianity for people feeling odd about others who want to surgically alter their birth gender when there is no evidence religion has anything to do with such feelings.

    When I hear somebody refer to John Calvin I immediately think of the Dutch Reformed Church. It’s true he had a broader impact on Protestantism in general, but not all branches.

    Playing the religion card is just pure bigotry on your part when people people are questioning why someone would want to surgically alter their genitals and other parts of their body, especially somebody like Pritzker who apparently lived a lie for his whole life up to this point, but otherwise is a truly great American.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  131. How is it that homosexuality is the one, single, unalterable human characteristic. So much so that even counseling is outlawed.

    Yet biology 101 is up for grabs.

    Riddle me this.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  132. I claim ownership of this. How is this “hate speech?”

    Who are you quoting here?

    people who have mutilated and neutered themselves.

    How am I wrong?

    Are you aware that around 1 or 2 live births per thousand are so sexually ambiguous that they require a specialist doctor to figure things out? And that those doctors often “assign” a gender to that individual at birth? At the most conservative estimate, intersex people occur 1 in every 5,000, which in the USA would mean 60,000 people. And it’s probably more.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Prevalence

    carlitos (e7c734)

  133. in later years John Calvin was known as Jolene Calvin – this was just before she moved to Sedona where she created a really super duper cute line of custom jewelry and handbags

    but none of what Jolene accomplished in any way diminishes the contributions of John

    it’s all good, you see

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  134. daleyrocks – our country was founded by Puritans who were so uptight that they emigrated from Europe. If you think that this has nothing to do with the ick factor expressed here regarding sexual no-nos, I’m afraid that we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  135. “At the most conservative estimate, intersex people occur 1 in every 5,000, which in the USA would mean 60,000 people.”

    carlitos – Do all 60,000 want to join the military?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  136. Gee, carlitos, thanks for filling me in.

    One would think that the disqualifying characteristics I quoted for men seeking to join the military…

    History of major abnormalities or defects of the genitalia, such as a change of sex (P64.5), hermaphroditism, pseudohermaphroditism, or pure gonadal dysgenesis (752.7) or dysfunctional residuals from surgical correction of these conditions is disqualifying.

    …might have clued you in that I was at least aware of the subject.

    Guess not.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  137. My first experience with a transgendered person was seeing Renee Richards play tennis at the U.S. Open in the latter half of the 1970s. My reaction was what is that?

    She transitioned sexes at age 40 or 41 I believe although she began cross dressing in college.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. If you think that this has nothing to do with the ick factor expressed here regarding sexual no-nos, I’m afraid that we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    The “ick factor” appears to be intrinsic to human nature. It apparently transcends all sorts of boundaries. It transcends the world of religion and politics—and race, gender, ethnicity, hair color, restaurant preferences, style of clothing, height, shoe size, favorite sports, movies, genital size, shape of nose, color of eyeballs, favorite music. I hope I didn’t leave out some applicable human trait or preference. But one has to be all-inclusive in this age of beautiful, wonderful, touching political correctness.

    The “ick factor” at least dates back to the time of ancient Greece. It dates back to the reactions and attitudes of a famous intellectual of his time, sort of an ancient version of an urban liberal running around on today’s university campus. But an intellectual who appears to have had some new-found religion instilled in him later on in life. I guess he ended up watching too much of the Trinity Broadcasting Network.

    theguardian.com: At one time [Plato] had written that same-sex lovers were far more blessed than ordinary mortals… Now he seemed to contradict himself. In his ideal city, he says in his last, posthumously published work known as The Laws, homosexual sex will be treated the same way as incest. It is something contrary to nature, he insists, and although there won’t be laws against it, nevertheless a propaganda programme will encourage everyone to say that it is “utterly unholy, odious-to-the-gods and ugliest of ugly things”.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  139. I hesitate to mention what may or may not have been my first experience with a transgendered person.

    I didn’t stick around to make sure, once I got suspicious.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  140. Where does all this craziness come from, foundations from corporate donors, Soros being preeminent among them, in a whole host of areas,,
    Maurice Strong on the environment;

    http://americanthinker.com/2014/05/corporate_money_in_politics_whos_complaining.html

    narciso (3fec35)

  141. It’s not called transphobia, now.

    Warning: The Literary Canon Could Make Students Squirm

    “Be aware of racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, cissexism, ableism, and other issues of privilege and oppression,” the guide said.

    It’s cissexism.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae)

  142. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Prevalence

    yeah, because Wiki is such a unbiased and vetted source of accurate information.

    you might as well say “i made this guavno up.”

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  143. I hesitate to mention what may or may not have been my first experience with a transgendered person.

    Was it anything like what happened with Danny Bonaduce? :)

    I still like how, in Guadalajara, they call them “chicos-chicas.”

    Blackhawks won 3-1.

    One would think that the disqualifying characteristics I quoted for men seeking to join the military…

    The question is not whether the disqualifying characteristics exist in the first place.- are those disqualifying characterists right or not. There was a time when negros were disqualified, as well as gays. Please explain why some logistics clerk can’t be a tranny in this man’s army. It worked fine for Corporal Klinger.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  144. trannies need to get to where they’re accepted and embraced in more pedestrian everyday type jobs first before tackling the military I think Mr. carlitos

    you have to pace yourself, and they’re trying to glom onto the path what the gay people troddered, without paying their dues, and skip to the head of the line

    well i say hold it right there, tranny person

    you in some kinda hurry

    where’s the fire

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  145. Maybe they should sit in the back of the bus, eh? ;)

    carlitos (e7c734)

  146. nonono – but for reals they need to at least score a multi-episode story arc on Glee before we give them guns

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  147. ride, captain, ride
    upon your mystery ship
    be amazed, while others gaze
    Your dangle was unclipped

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  148. “Piss on Bradley Manning, he was born male, enlisted in the Army as a male, and betrayed our country as a male.”

    C’mon, ropelight, Manning would enjoy that, that’s no punishment!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  149. The much prettier Dana quoted an idiotic list:

    Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson.

    And her you find the ultimate in the tranny goal: to attempt to normalize the idea that a transsexual, whether pre-op or after “treatment” really is the sex he/she/it claims he/she/it is.

    Well, sorry, but no, if I were single again, I wouldn’t date a castrated male who had been pumped full of hormones and had artificial tits stuck on his chest. No matter how much someone like Bradley Manning says that he is female or wants to be female or even has treatment to become a faux-female, he will always be male. Of course, while he will always be male, he is not, was not, and never will be a man.

    The stone-cold sober Dana (af9ec3)

  150. Yet another winning strategy for Republicans – ridicule people who are different from yourself. This despite Millenials being the most diverse, inclusive cohort in the history of America. Great idea.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  151. Carlitos wrote:

    Except for Col. Pritzer and the countless people like her (sic) that served our country proudly? What makes you think that there haven’t been transpeople in the military?

    There certainly have been trannies in the military, just as there were homosexuals in the military even before don’t ask/don’t tell, but we could have done just as well without them. You wish to cite Mr Ptitzker, but I’d cite Mr Manning as the better example of the problems associated with allowing mentally ill people in the armed services.

    To use the feminine pronouns to refer to Mr Pritzker, as you did, is simply an error. No matter how much he wants to be “Jennifer,” even if he gets his name change and his genitals mutilated, he will always be male.

    The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3)

  152. Damn you, Col. Haiku, I’m cleaning the garage and I can’t get that song out of my head.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  153. Is there something that Dana fears about folks self-identifying by the gender that they prefer? Why the hostility?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  154. “Great idea,” said Mr. Carlitos, in a voice drenched with sarcasm and ennui. He’d decided to take a head-on approach in this debate – but he was taken aback at the venomous ridicule he’d encountered among commenters on the internet – venom not aimed at himself, but at the trannies of America, and on a day that had been expressly set aside for Americans to soberly reflect upon their plight.

    But Happyfeet was puzzled, and he said as much.

    “I’m puzzled,” said happyfeet. “You talk about Millennials and their inclusiveness, but isn’t Republican animosity towards gay people already sufficient to alienate this demographic? Are you suggesting that Republican enmity towards trannies will serve to alienate the Millennials even more worser?

    “I think that ship has sailed.”

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  155. And Carlitos tells us where he veered into the weeds:

    There is another thing that I didn’t bring up. I don’t care about the reasons that someone self-identifies as a certain gender. It doesn’t make me call them freaks or ill. Historically, there has always been a spectrum of sexuality, and there haven’t always been just 2 genders. Unfortunately, most of us are products of our Calvinist forebears, so we like to stigmatize people that we don’t understand.

    Other than your statement that you don’t care about the reasons, that statement is entirely false. Other than hermaphrodites, who have a birth defect, there really are only two sexes, male and female. There may be a range of sexual attractions, which allow for the small minority of homosexuals and bisexuals among us, but being homosexual does not make a person a different sex. And if a person truly believes that he is the wrong sex, that his body does not match his brain, then he is mentally ill, completely nuts, off his rocker, sick in the head.

    We can see it throughout the animal kingdom: there are males and there are females, and that is the natural order of things, which allows for the basic life function of reproduction. Why would humans somehow be different from other animals in that regard?

    We can have sympathy for people so unfortunately afflicted with that problem, but we do both them and ourselves a disservice if we lie to them, and ourselves, and pretend that transsexualism is not an illness, or that “sexual reassignment surgery” actually transforms a person from one sex to the other.

    The biologist Dana (af9ec3)

  156. God feets, but you are funny. Can I tell you a story about music? Quoting from my facebook:

    Carl: you know, I never used to listen to techno music, but you are awesome.

    Paul Oakenfold; I don’t play techno music.

    Carl: ( looks at his feet )

    carlitos (e7c734)

  157. Carlitos asked me:

    Is there something that Dana fears about folks self-identifying by the gender that they prefer? Why the hostility?

    It’s called lying, Carlitos. There is no honesty in lying, to others or to yourself.

    The brutally honest Dana (af9ec3)

  158. Comment by The biologist Dana (af9ec3) — 5/18/2014 @ 4:47 pm

    pretend that transsexualism is not an illness, or that “sexual reassignment surgery” actually transforms a person from one sex to the other

    Not to pretend so is now….cissexism (apparently the belief that a person always stays, or should stay, the same sex.)

    Here it the definition:

    http://angerisjustified.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/definitions-cissexism-and-binarism-for-google/

    A cis person is one for whom assigned sex, internal sense of sex, assigned gender and internal sense of gender all match up. So that would be a male-assigned & identified man, or a female-assigned & identified woman, since our culture doesn’t assign people outside the binary. A person may also be either cissexual or cisgender without necessarily being both, although often the two correlate. Cissexism is prejudice and discrimination against people who are not cis.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  159. And folks self-identifying with a gender affects you how, exactly?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  160. Mr. Oakenfold could be a lil more gracious I think.

    Here’s his thing with Brittany Murphy he did with her back before she died.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyTPfifzqjo

    She’s like seven kinds of adorable in this video.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  161. Let’s assume that Bradley Manning gets his wish, that he gets the drug and hormone treatments he desires, has beast implants, gets castrated and has a plastic surgeon construct something akin to a vagina in his loins. He will still have XY chromosomes, and his biochemistry will still be male rather than female. He will still have grown up a male, and all of his life experiences will have been as a male. He will not have the experiences that girls have growing up, he will not have developed in reaction to culture and society growing up, because males and females are treated differently. And after he dies, if some future anthropologists dig up his bones, when they examine the specimen, they’ll determine that the specimen was male.

    Being male or female is more than outward appearance, and it is more than just your genitals. A skilled butcher surgeon can mess with the outward appearance, but that’s about it.

    The brutally realistic Dana (af9ec3)

  162. Carlitos asked me again:

    And folks self-identifying with a gender affects you how, exactly?

    Because they are asking me to accept a lie as the truth, and I will not do that.

    The totally honest Dana (af9ec3)

  163. He will still have XY chromosomes,

    How do you know that? How do you know that he’s not a Klinefeller or XXY person?

    Seriously, why does this bother you?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  164. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    pretend that transsexualism is not an illness, or that “sexual reassignment surgery” actually transforms a person from one sex to the other

    Not to pretend so is now….cissexism (apparently the belief that a person always stays, or should stay, the same sex.)

    I am a proudly cisheteronormative patriarchist! Yes, of course a person always stays the sex he was born. It doesn’t matter if he thinks that he ought to be able to change it; he can’t.

    The cisheteronormative Dana (af9ec3)

  165. Carlitos asked me, yet again:

    He will still have XY chromosomes,

    How do you know that? How do you know that he’s not a Klinefeller or XXY person?

    Seriously, why does this bother you?

    No such claim has been made on Mr Manning’s behalf, and as such would be a genuine, genetic abnormality, I assume that, had such been the case, it would have been raised as an issue during his trial.

    And I told you why it “bothers” me: it is a lie, and I am unwilling to accept lies as the truth.

    Actually, I wonder why it doesn’t seem to bother you, to have to suspend honesty and common sense and all of the knowledge we have of biology just to arrive at a position which is politically correct. You are lying to yourself, Carlitos, and that ought to bother you.

    The cisheteronormative Dana (af9ec3)

  166. all of the knowledge we have of biology

    You missed the wikipedia link and the articles in the footnotes. Here it is again:

    Again, way to win Republicans. Jesus Christ. We aren’t ever going to get fiscal policy fixed because of you moral high ground Old Testament cavemen. The Libertarians are inept morons, the Democrats can’t spend my money fast enough, and purported Republicans only seem to care about what’s in my brain or between my legs. Get the hell out of the way, already.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  167. Carlitos wrote:

    Again, way to win Republicans. Jesus Christ. We aren’t ever going to get fiscal policy fixed because of you moral high ground Old Testament cavemen. The Libertarians are inept morons, the Democrats can’t spend my money fast enough, and purported Republicans only seem to care about what’s in my brain or between my legs. Get the hell out of the way, already.

    I don’t know what’s between your legs, and I don’t care. After all, we accept both men and women into the Republican Party! But when you lie to yourself, you automatically become a Democrat.

    The truthful Dana (af9ec3)

  168. As for your Wikipedia link, it, by itself, disproves your point, because it refers to physical abnormailites and birth defects, while you are arguing on behalf of persons with no stated physical defect, but who believe that they were born the wrong sex.

    The very truthful Dana (af9ec3)

  169. Sadly, it’s the same road we have been down with the gays. It starts out as “We just want to be left alone” and ends up with “If you disagree we will destroy you/force you to bake us a cake/send you out for re-education.”
    I used to just ignore those folks but now I am actively against them. Be careful what you wish for. Most Americans are very tolerant, but they won’t be bullied or threatened too easily.

    Gazzer (44425d)

  170. Be careful what you wish for…

    Gazzer (44425d)

  171. And this affects your life how? Seriously.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  172. Since Gazzer posted in between, let me clarify:

    persons with no stated physical defect, but who believe that they were born the wrong sex.

    This affects Dana because of _______________?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  173. From ‘Boy Meets Girl’ to ‘Orange Is the New Black’:

    Meet the new transgender faces of TV

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/from-boy-meets-girl-to-orange-is-the-new-black-meet-the-new-transgender-faces-of-tv-9392393.html

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  174. “I hesitate to mention what may or may not have been my first experience with a transgendered person.

    I didn’t stick around to make sure, once I got suspicious.”

    Comment by Steve57 (c8cb20) — 5/18/2014 @ 1:16 pm

    Oh, c’mon Steve! Was it her prominent Adam’s apple or teh Polska kielbasa?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  175. ut when you lie to yourself, you automatically become a Democrat.

    OK, never mind. I hadn’t realized that you were doing comedy. My bad. Let me reach out to Democrats who lied to themselves like Larry Craig, Ted Haggard, Jim West, Phil Hinkle, etc.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  176. People who have nose jobs are pretty much doing the same thing when you think about it.

    I think that some people who feel they are trapped in the wrong sex and are depressed and suicidal are actually “helped” by the surgery and the drugs which mute the more obvious secondary characteristics of their birth gender. It is their own belief that they are inferior and that fixing themselves will make them happier that actually does seem to make some of them happy afterwards. They feel that they have taken control over something in their lives that felt wrong and out of kilter and out of control. Good for them.

    And it’s fine if they want to be on Dancing With The Stars or work at the DMV. But, they do not belong in the U.S. Military.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  177. i just wish i could do more to help

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  178. And it’s fine if they want to be on Dancing With The Stars or work at the DMV. But, they do not belong in the U.S. Military.

    Comment by elissa (fcdf94) — 5/18/2014 @ 6:01 pm

    Could you please elucidate why the military should be different from other employers?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  179. Honestly who gives a farthing, the Administration sees a pirate raid, effectively an act of war, against civilization, and this is what they are focused on, the price of food and fuel, are spiraling out of control, there are no net jobs after five years of ‘recovery summer’ people have less care then they started with, five years ago,

    narciso (3fec35)

  180. narciso, I like how you end your comments with commas. It’s like there is more coming but what.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  181. what I’m hearing you say Mr. carlitos is that the military is big enough and has any number of jobs that a tranny american could perform ably and with no risk of going all chelsea manning on everybody

    I can go with that

    if I’m understanding you right

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  182. ==Could you please elucidate why the military should be different from other employers?==

    Steve57 has already done that quite well here, I think, Carlitos. The military has always had keen standards with respect to medical, physical, and mental fitness that do not, and never could apply to other industries and employers (flat feet, weight, vision, known diseases/conditions that require medication and monitoring which would be impossible on patrol). The mission and readiness needs of the military are considerably different than “most employers”. Surely you don’t think manning a desk 9-5 in an insurance agency is the same as being on night patrol in Kabul or testing for IEDs in Iraq?

    elissa (fcdf94)

  183. @ Steve:
    Sorry you don’t get it both ways. In post 83 you stipulated that we could take this number as given. By the way even it it is off by 50% you still have 7500 people. Are you telling me you know for a fact that all their functions are not needed? Lulz.

    @nk

    Says who? You? If you want to sell me something, you prove to me that it’s worth it or I’ll spend my national defense money elsewhere.

    Im not selling anything. There are transgenders in the military according to the NY times and stipulated to as “given” by Steve. The question being discussed here is are those roles needed or not. I don’t think anyone here is in the position to say they are not needed given that the military is using them.

    Weasel away all you like, dodge the question, attack me, tell me im wrong on so many levels. Its all irrelevant. In his first breath Steve says “ok fine lets just take that number as given” and in his next “we don’t need them”. That claim is what needs support. Make the case that we suddenly don’t need 15k (or whatever the number is) servicemen. Not the other way around.

    Gil (27c98f)

  184. @Dana

    Because they are asking me to accept a lie as the truth, and I will not do that.

    Oh boy. What will you accept as truth? Evidence based theories? Sincere delusions, Secondhand stories?

    Gil (27c98f)

  185. Mr Feets, already the military and many police forces have “desk duty” or “lite duty” assignments (usually temporary) for those colleagues who have been injured in combat or were mentally traumatized by an event or are recovering from an illness. I’m no expert, but I do not know of cases where they create jobs or assignments especially for people who could not meet the basic entrance standards from the get-go. Do you?

    elissa (fcdf94)

  186. how many people can we possibly be talking about

    trannies with military ambitions

    i’m pretty sure i could spend all day wandering around weho and not find a single one

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  187. oh. and “the military” and “police forces” I pray to Lutheran Jesus are in no way equivalents

    American police are piggy piggy ignant fascist thugtrash

    it’s very sad

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  188. “Make the case that we suddenly don’t need 15k (or whatever the number is) servicemen.”

    Gil – Obama is cutting the size of the military, you moron.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  189. Yet another winning strategy for Republicans – ridicule people who are different from yourself.

    Sheesh. Your take on issues like this and global warming fascinates me because while you’re not a flat-out liberal, you nonetheless have the compulsions that screw up the common sense of people from A to Z. The shoddy compulsions of, yep, compassion for compassion’s sake.

    So Mother Earth must be cried over, the GLBT must be cried over — and this is crucial since the US military isn’t currently being corrupted by leftists as much as it presumably is being corrupted by people whose ideological bent (“centrist-left” or squishy, or semi-conservative) is similar to yours — Nidal Hasan must be cried over.

    When out-and-out liberals spew silly do-gooder sentiments I roll my eyes but at least I’m not surprised. When people who should know better do the same thing, that’s when I know just about anyone of us is susceptible to making really bad decisions or perceiving things in a really dumb way (eg, my originally believing that liberals were a bit less likely to be bigoted and racist).

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/18/2014 @ 4:41 pm

    I knew it. In real life, you actually do talk and write like, say, a George F Will or (ugh) a Paul Krugman, or this blog’s very owner, Patterico himself. The jig is up. LOL.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  190. because of you moral high ground Old Testament cavemen.

    When I come across BS like that, I now happily cite the words and behavior of the famous Greek philosopher Plato, who lived about 400 years before the birth of Christ—and who originally sounded like a modern-day college-campus liberal about homosexuality but who eventually repudiated it, in surprisingly harsh terms.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  191. you gotta repudiate that homo shi*t

    at least before you die

    else you going to HELL and it ain’t nobody’s fault but you own wicked self

    republicans 2014 ftw

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  192. Mark–there really is no such thing as “compassion for compassion’s sake”. That is a nonsensical expression which nk explained to you rather thoroughly and convincingly, I thought, several weeks ago. Please think about and hone in on what exactly you are trying to articulate when you rely on, and use that phrase– and then come up with some other words to convey it that people can relate to. Thanks.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  193. elissa @182, thanks. You get it. Everything you say and more.

    I sometimes think it is a huge mistake to have an all volunteer military because then the public at large is divorced from certain realities. Such as, the military is not like any other employer.

    So then people can make a case for whatnot, and to a large segment of the public it seems to make sense, only because they’ve never been in.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  194. “Again, way to win Republicans. Jesus Christ. We aren’t ever going to get fiscal policy fixed because of you moral high ground Old Testament cavemen.”

    carlitos – I don’t see why you keep viewing this as either a political or religious issue. Look at radical feminists, mostly marxist lesbians if they’re doing it right. They have a problem with male to female trannies that’s certainly not political or religious. It’s more, sorry about your dick, you’re not part of our tribe. Or as Mr. Feets described it here previously, you’re a category error.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. I saw Godzilla and some TOFU monsters – Totally Outrageous F*ckin’ Unbelievable – stomp the livin’ sh*t out of San Francisco today. It. Was. Awesome!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  196. “Yet another winning strategy for Republicans – ridicule people who are different from yourself.”

    carlitos – You mean stooping to the level of Democrats?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  197. Coronello @174, no, I didn’t notice a prominent Adam’s apple. The bar was dark. Hong Kong is expensive. At first I appreciated the free drinks. But at a certain point you decide, if you’re anything like me, that this is the either the freakiest girl you’ve ever met or it’s a guy.

    And, no, you can’t “just see it.”

    Either way, it’s time to move on.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  198. You almost got Shanghai’d in Hong Kong, Steve. Close call.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  199. I think they are called MUTO, Colonel, I was wondering how they took a chunk of the statue of liberty, it turns out it was the one in Vegas,

    narciso (3fec35)

  200. that is liberalism, then there is stupidity, which knows no ideological parallel, this borders on a Python sketch, a cross between the lumberjack and
    the one about the New British Army,

    narciso (3fec35)

  201. They took chunks outta a lot of things, narciso… including the GG Bridge.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  202. Almost, coronello, counts only in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

    How is the X1/9?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  203. could the anti-semitic Associated Press propaganda sluts be more anti-semitic if they tried?

    Courting powerful Jewish donors for the second time in two months, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie called Sunday for a more aggressive foreign policy that defends American values abroad — even in “in some very messy, difficult places.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/christie-calls-more-aggressive-foreign-policy-005146068–election.html

    what kind of maleficent spawn of Satan courts “powerful Jewish donors” … “for the second time in two months”????!???

    god help us all

    they don’t call him His Corpulent Beelzebub just cause he’s obscenely disgustingly obese

    Chris Christie clearly has his own agenda

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  204. Mark–there really is no such thing as “compassion for compassion’s sake”.

    Elissa, it’s actually a variation of the following phrase:


    bleed·ing heart
    noun: bleeding heart; plural noun: bleeding hearts; modifier noun: bleeding-heart
    1.informal derogatory
    a person considered to be dangerously softhearted, typically someone considered too liberal in political beliefs.

    bleeding heart
    Feeling sorry for everything and everyone and giving in to emotions quickly.

    ^ It’s illustrated by, for example, nk waxing poetic the other day over Franklin D Roosevelt, in spite of details (which I’m sure nk is fully aware of) that illustrate what a crummy, two-faced person America’s 32nd president really was.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  205. when you have a taste for shoe leather, you have to do it as many times, so people forget you stood with Imam Rauf, and put a Hamas lawyer on the Superior Ct,

    meanwhile, the hashtag has had decidedly ‘mixed’ results,

    http://news.yahoo.com/blast-hits-bar-district-north-nigerian-city-kano-213717630.html

    narciso (3fec35)

  206. I reckon Boko has decidedly orthodox views on this issue, the kind involving stones,

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/05/guns-save-lives-armed-nigerian-villagers-defeat-boko-haram-over-200-terrorists-killed/

    narciso (3fec35)

  207. “Boko Haram” doesn’t exactly transliterate into “Western learning is forbidden” or “Western knowledge is sinful.”

    It’s more like “non-Islamic knowledge is sinful.”

    I am curious. Why do we whitewash this?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  208. My Hausa is a little week, actually nonexistent but Boko is just their stage name, as Hirsi Ali pointed out,

    narciso (3fec35)

  209. Sorry that url went nowhere,

    narciso (3fec35)

  210. Should we dignify Hausa by learning to speak it?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  211. not even a smattering like swahili,

    otoh, jibberish should be avoided at all costs:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/17/4121571/partisan-gap-even-extends-to-tragedy.html

    narciso (3fec35)

  212. The X1/9 runs like a scalded cat and the Abarth puts a grin on my face every time I drive it, Steve. Thanks for asking.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  213. Good to know,coronello.

    I somehow guessed you wouldn’t leave an engine bay unfilled.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  214. Gotta be a Monty Python skit here somewhere…

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/18/2014 @ 8:07 am

    Just for you, my fine fellow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Dfs7jqFI&index=1&list=RDol5Dfs7jqFI

    Bill H (f9e4cd)

  215. Gil – Obama is cutting the size of the military, you moron.

    Wait what? You completely ignore the point I made, answer a sentence that you thought up a disconnected response to, and Im the moron?

    Gil (27c98f)

  216. “Wait what? You completely ignore the point I made, answer a sentence that you thought up a disconnected response to, and Im the moron?”

    Gil – It directly addressed your moronic point, you moron.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  217. Great, carlitos, now you’re including babies with gonadal dysgenesis in along with the sickos whose problems are all in their heads. That’s like grouping Caster Semenya with Michael Jackson. What next? Tethered cord babies? They have plumbing problems too. Those people are not “queer”. They had a genuine physical birth defect and they’re trying to live with it as best as they possibly can.

    nk (dbc370)

  218. Wasn’t Bradley Manning’s reason for stealing and disclosing secrets due to the military’s don’t ask don’t tell policy?

    Shouldn’t our military be concerned with allowing people like this to serve? As other’s have pointed out, the military has a specific purpose and ask their members for personal sacrifice to serve that purpose. If your personal choices interfere with that purpose, then maybe the military is not for you.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  219. Carlitos gets silly:

    Could you please elucidate why the military should be different from other employers?

    Uhhh, how ’bout because the purpose of the military is to go out and kill people and destroy their countries?

    The highly amused Dana (3e4784)

  220. [set to the music of underdog]

    When trannies in this world appear,
    And break the laws of nature here,
    Brain bleach is needed when they see and hear,
    When the way they act is so queer!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  221. 218. Comment by Hadoop (f7d5ba) — 5/19/2014 @ 5:09 am

    Wasn’t Bradley Manning’s reason for stealing and disclosing secrets due to the military’s don’t ask don’t tell policy?

    No, it wasn’t, but it might have contributed to his disloyalty.

    He was loyal to people who befriended him, or seemed (in his mind) would accept him.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  222. 100. Steve57 (c8cb20) — 5/18/2014 @ 9:39 am

    People who are serving who develop diabetes are forced out of the service. They’re already “playing a role.”

    Yet they’re not indispensable.

    The logical reason would be that it iis much more hazardous to them and logistically difficult to deploy them. They may need special diets, or pills, reserved time for injections or for eating, and if injured will heal slower and not recover as fast or as well and have smaller chances of survival.
    .
    The interesting thing is that people injured in the line of duty are allowed to stay in the service – I guess for reasons of morale.

    And people with diabetes aren’t nearly as unstable as people with some form of gender identity disorder. People with diabetes, unlike people with gender identity disorder, don’t have a suicide rate 9 times the national average.

    The irrationality of the pro-transgender types is amazing.

    Comment by

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  223. And people with diabetes aren’t nearly as unstable as people with some form of gender identity disorder.

    I don’t think it has anything to do with their being unstable. Just unfit.

    People with diabetes, unlike people with gender identity disorder, don’t have a suicide rate 9 times the national average.

    When they say that, they are trying to imply that the suicide rate is because people regard them as having something wrong with them.

    But they’d be perfectly fine if everybody said to them: “you’re perfectly normal” and treated them that way. They wouldn’t feel out of place, then, or feel they had some kind of horrible, incurable condition.

    It’s probably not really like that, but that’s what they say. If they feel they have some kind of horrible, incurable condition, and they’re committing suicide, that’s not because of the opinions of the people they meet in the normal course of life.

    The irrationality of the pro-transgender types is amazing.

    It flows from assumptions (adopted, not because of logic, but because it is convenient, or at least hopeful for some, to believe.) Once you have the right postulates, the rest follows automatically, including complaining about people who do not accept a person’s new sex.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  224. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    It flows from assumptions (adopted, not because of logic, but because it is convenient, or at least hopeful for some, to believe.) Once you have the right postulates, the rest follows automatically, including complaining about people who do not accept a person’s new sex.

    That is absolutely true, though you are far kinder than I am. Were we to accept Carlitos’ assumptions that “sexual reassignment therapy” can actually change someone’s sex, could actually turn a male into a female, and vice versa, much of his argument follows.

    The problem is that no amount of drug or hormone or surgical ‘treatment’ can do what the transsexuals want it to do, hope it can do, wish it could do. Once you realize that point, then none of their arguments follow.

    The Dana amazed that he has actually agreed with Mr Finkelman on something (3e4784)

  225. No, it wasn’t, but it might have contributed to his disloyalty.

    A distinction without a difference.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  226. you’re including babies with gonadal dysgenesis in along with the sickos whose problems are all in their heads

    Carlitos’ assumptions that “sexual reassignment therapy” can actually change someone’s sex

    As always, feel free to make up arguments that I have not made, and argue against them. It’s very persuasive.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  227. What argument have you actually made, carlitos?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  228. That the armed forces should have to abide by the same rules that other employers follow. I thought that this was the conservative position – that the government should have to deal with the same regs that they apply to private enterprise?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  229. That the armed forces should have to abide by the same rules that other employers follow.

    So far, dumb legislators and dumb judges (virtually all of the left) haven’t yet required that employers do the Watusi in order to accommodate the transgendered employee, certainly in having to pay for his/her sex-change surgery. But with certain people out there thinking the way you do, it’s only a matter of time.

    BTW, a big shout out to Nidal Hasan!

    Mark (99b8fd)

  230. That is absolutely ridiculous, carlitos. And that was never the conservative position. The armed forces have been governed by an entirely separate legal code since this country’s inception. Formerly the Articles of War. Currently the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    Nothing, absolutely nothing, you are saying has any grounding in fact. In fact, you can only say what you are saying by misrepresenting reality. Including the “conservative position.”

    If you want to state that the non-military portions of the government should live by the same laws that the rest of us do, fine. I have no problem for instance with requiring Congressional staff members having to buy insurance on an Obamacare exchange. But neither I nor any conservative I’m aware of have ever said the same thing about a Staff Sergeant in the USAF.

    As far as I know, the “conservative position” dates back to at least Roman times. When a conscript or enlistee was no longer subject to civil law upon signing the contract.

    That’s pretty freakin’ conservative, wouldn’t you say?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  231. You are eliding “government” with “military.” This is sloppy thinking, at best, carlitos.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  232. @Steve57 – Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You obviously make a fair point about the UCMJ. I’m going to think about it.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  233. Are you aware that around 1 or 2 live births per thousand are so sexually ambiguous that they require a specialist doctor to figure things out? And that those doctors often “assign” a gender to that individual at birth? At the most conservative estimate, intersex people occur 1 in every 5,000, which in the USA would mean 60,000 people. And it’s probably more.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Prevalence

    Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 5/18/2014 @ 11:46 am

    You didn’t say that? Anyway.

    nk (dbc370)

  234. carlitos, just so you know. I am not trying to enforce any personal prejudice. I suppose that’s why I linked to The Jeffersons episode. If a friend of mine was having some sort of personal crisis, I’d still be a friend. But that doesn’t mean I would think it advisable for that friend of mine to join or retained by the military.

    I would say the same about myself, if for some reason my continued presence had become harmful to good order and discipline.

    Also, I disagree with your contention that transgendered people are unstable and more prone to suicide because of the larger society’s manifestations of bigotry.

    If there is a better example of “uncomfortable in your own skin” then an attempt to change genders, please provide it.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  235. nk – I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. It’s true that I don’t care why someone self-identifies with a gender – accident of birth, genetics, mental health issues, whatever. If you want to call them sickos, that’s OK too. I just don’t understand why you want to distinguish between them. What do you care? How does someone who just wants to be a different gender affect your life?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  236. carlitos @236, I don’t dare to speak for anyone else. But when it comes to my right to speak about reality as I perceive it I don’t compromise. Not even a little bit. I have the absolute right to say how things look to me.

    We are seeing some practical examples of what happens when one gives up that right in various and sundry school systems. Do you really want your child to be showering with someone of the opposite gender because they claim to “identify” with the other? We have passed the point where privacy rights trump imaginary rights.

    So, no, I don’t think I’ll go along with the lie. Especially not in the military, where going along with the lie leads to falling for ruses or stumbling into ambushes.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  237. You’ve got enough guys piling on you and kicking you, and I don’t want to be one anymore. ;)

    I discussed this with my daughter, age 12, and her questioon at first was “What difference does it make if they’re transgender?”, like yours. Then I said, “If you’re looking for a bodyguard, do you want Chuck Norris or Michael Jackson?” And she said, “Duh”. So, ….

    But like I said, I don’t want to play anymore.

    nk (dbc370)

  238. Steve57, I’ll defer to your expertise on the military, but I question your points on showering. For like 200,000 years, humans had a lot more intimate exposure to each other, and things worked OK. Abe Lincoln’s parents certainly conceived him in a cabin of less than 100 square feet with kids listening if they were awake. While I respect your beliefs, I don’t think that we should legislate based on ick factor.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  239. I think what carlitos was initially trying to bring up with his “ambiguous sex” comment is that it’s not always “in the person’s head”, (even though these extremely rare cases are barely relevant to this discussion about he WH shoutout). It’s fact that a few babies are born with versions of the outward structures for both a boy and a girl. In the not too distant past doctors and parents often decided to decide for the baby and amputated one or the other type of those structures to “lessen confusion” and spare the child from the freak factor later in life. Most often it was the male parts that went bye bye– and these children were raised in frilly dresses and given dolls to play with and housed in pink rooms. The parents often naively went to brutal hyper great lengths to discourage any and all “boy behavior” and sent them to psychologists when they attempted to act out as boys.

    There are several excellent books and documentaries about this phenomenon and practice, and how these now “girls” always knew they were boys and fought to be recognized as boys, even though they’d been surgically mutilated as babies. The kids thought it was all the other people around them that were crazy!

    I have compassion and empathy for the suffering of these poor people I’ve described above (compassion in the proper use of the word), because they had no control over what occurred either in utero or post birth as children. I do consider them to be victims. But throwing this horrible and rare example into the discussion as Carlitos did, does not bolster his other more prominent yet unconvincing “there’s a spectrum of human sexuality that we should be willing to embrace and celebrate, and why shouldn’t trans-sexuals be in the military?” argument.

    elissa (fcdf94)

  240. carlitos, I don’t have an “ick factor.” That’s Mark.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  241. elissa, is there something I’ve said that makes you think I lack compassion? Not that you have said that. I just want to be clear about things.

    I don’t see how stating transgendered people shouldn’t be in the military equates to transgenderd people have no place in society.

    I’m all for people being happy, as much as possible, as long as I don’t have to tread upon my integrity.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  242. Steve57–my comment was not addressed to you and upon re-reading it I have no idea whatsoever why you perceived that it was. It was meant generally to the larger audience on the thread. The “compassion” dig was meant specifically for Mark.

    elissa (164cf6)

  243. “Also, I disagree with your contention that transgendered people are unstable and more prone to suicide because of the larger society’s manifestations of bigotry.”

    Steve57 – C’mon, if society would just behave the way every special snowflake wants them to behave, everything would be great. How can you disagree with that? I felt the same way about my wife and everybody else in the world. The only problem is that I don’t control the behavior of everybody else, I can only control mine.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  244. That MP sketch I do remember, thanks, Bill H.!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  245. elissa @243, I didn’t feel especially singled out. But I did want to make sure.

    Thanks for making things crystal clear.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  246. This discussion is no less queer than whence begun.

    I blame Chimpy McHitlerburton.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  247. narciso – Obama loves the military so much he wants to slash the heck out of it. Plus, veterans tend overall to vote conservative so he’s doing himself a favor by saying or having others say he’s mad as hell and not actually addressing the problems.

    Targeted death panels anyone? Hell yeah!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  248. So it would seem, daley, but Jay Z, I mean Squirrel!!

    narciso (3fec35)

  249. gary, what can’t Chimpy not do?

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  250. narciso – Maybe the Dems can delay those overseas military ballots again this year. Suh-weet!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  251. Carlitos wrote:

    That the armed forces should have to abide by the same rules that other employers follow. I thought that this was the conservative position – that the government should have to deal with the same regs that they apply to private enterprise?

    Really? In civilian employment, if your boss gives you an assignment, and you do not wish to do it, you can quit; in the military, if your boss gives you and assignment, you don’t get to quit, and can wind up in the brig if you refuse to carry out the order. They are not the same thing.

    Civilian employers are required to institute safety protocols, to keep employees from harm and danger; the military’s first function is to send employees into situations in which some very bad men might shoot at them.

    And while conscription is in abeyance, it is still the law and could be reinstituted whenever necessary; what civilian employer has the authority to force you to take a job with him?

    The military is wholly different from civilian employment, so different that it approaches silliness to find them comparable.

    The Dana amazed that even Carlitos could write something that silly (3e4784)

  252. Carlitos wrote:

    I don’t think that we should legislate based on ick factor.

    Really? We have age of consent laws in which it is allowable for an 18 year old to copulate with a 16 year old — meaning: the 16 year old is considered mature enough to take a decision to have sexual intercourse — but it remains statutory rape for a 28 year old to fornicate with the same 16 year old. We have laws against public nudity, even though there is no demonstrable harm that anyone can show if he unwillingly sees someone else naked . . . assuming that the nude person isn’t nk, in which case demonstrable harm could be proved. :) We have laws which prohibit Mr Finkelman from copulating with a horse, even though such creates no demonstrable harm to the horse.

    We have many, many, many laws based on the “ick” factor, and they are part of a civilized society.

    The Dana who understands how society is organized (3e4784)

  253. Carlitos,

    Maybe you should ask for a ‘do-over.’

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  254. That the armed forces should have to abide by the same rules that other employers follow. I thought that this was the conservative position – that the government should have to deal with the same regs that they apply to private enterprise?

    The Dana who understands how society is organized – That was an incredibly sloppy error on the part of carlitos. It is in fact the liberals who are attempting to make the military a social experiment.

    Conservatives do want legislators and their staffs to live by the same laws they are inflicting on the rest of the country, such as Obamacare. There is a public sector pension and medical care time bomb ready to explode at the state and municipal levels due to overly generous benefits granted but not funded to public sector workers relative to the private sector. Trying to analogize that as a conservative argument about military enlistment is, however, completely dishonest.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  255. Why are we all worried about the debt crisis, our military readiness, and malfeasance and incompetency in our VA hospitals, when we should be focused on the real evils such as carbon emissions, large sugary sodas, and the fact that Karl Rove inquired about Hillary’s head injury.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  256. I did not receive an automatic weapon, side arm or grenades from my last civilian employer or proper instructions in their use.

    I think I’m gonna sue. That’s discrimination!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  257. The force of Dana’s logic compels me to reassess my prior statements. I was wrong. I do in fact have an “ick” factor.

    Kidnap 200 plus girls in Nigeria or for that matter one girl anywhere and you will discover the line.

    Boys too. It’s not like Boko Haram is innocent in that regard either.

    All in all, I find Boko Haram “icky.”

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  258. ES – I’m more worried about whether Michael Sam’s going to make the Rams. He’s going to need a lot more call of encouragement from Obama I think.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  259. No plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range either,

    narciso (3fec35)

  260. “All in all, I find Boko Haram “icky.””

    Steve57 – Deploy your hashtag!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  261. Daley,

    Barack Obama recently said that if he had a son, he wouldn’t want him to play tackle football due to the threat of head injuries. Yet Karl Rove demonstrates some concern for Hillary’s head injury, but he is pilloried for being insensitive to head injuries. Or women with stocky legs. Or something.
    Yet at the same time, Barack is rooting for Michael Sam to make the tackle football team in St. Louis.

    It all begs the question, if a train departs from Kansas City @ 2:35pm, how long will it take before it arrives in Denver if it is traveling at a rate of 50 mph ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  262. daley, I qualified on the M9, M11, 1911, S&W Chief’s Special, the M-16, the M-14, and the Mossberg 590.

    Somehow missed the hashtag.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  263. assuming that the nude person isn’t nk, in which case demonstrable harm could be proved.

    Only a severe inferiority complex among other men, Dana. It’s not my fault; I don’t even use Enzyte.

    nk (dbc370)

  264. I also could work the mighty, mighty AWG-9 radar. Can’t prove it, though. The only NATOPS records I have on hand show I went through SERE.

    Because that was one class I did not want to repeat.

    It’s like a theme with me. Once I discovered that the Navy would conveniently lose my records, I’d keep copies of s*** to prove I didn’t have to do something over. If it was a big deal to me. Like innoculations.

    Radar? What the hell, I’ll do that over.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  265. Mr 57 wrote:

    The force of Dana’s logic compels me to reassess my prior statements.

    [Puffing out chest in pride] That was really all you needed to say. :)

    The justly proud Dana (3e4784)

  266. Mr Rocks wrote:

    I’m more worried about whether Michael Sam’s going to make the Rams. He’s going to need a lot more call of encouragement from Obama I think.

    Both Mr Sam and the Rams are in a horrible position; unless he either performs brilliantly or does terribly during training camp and the exhibition games, any decision on cutting or retaining him is going to be viewed through the lens of his announced homosexuality. If you’re the man competing with him for that final roster spot, and it’s a close call, you might be screwed.

    The Oakland Raiders fan Dana (3e4784)

  267. Just when we thought it was a safe punchline to insinuate that Obama found out about the VA hospital scandals by watching the news, Baghdad Jay Carney drops this one on us.
    Because despite all the technology and hastags and stuff, the Obama Regime has yet to discover “the office memo.”
    Or something.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2014/05/19/video-anyone-want-to-guess-how-obama-allegedly-found-out-about-the-va-scandal/

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  268. Mr Stone tries to trick us:

    It all begs the question, if a train departs from Kansas City @ 2:35pm, how long will it take before it arrives in Denver if it is traveling at a rate of 50 mph ?

    Just as long as it takes if it leaves at any other time, assuming that track conditions remain the same. :)

    The mathematician Dana (3e4784)

  269. 183.@ Steve:
    Sorry you don’t get it both ways.

    He could if he were a tranny!

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  270. r.e. The Justly Proud Dana, all I can say is I am not worthy.

    Also, a cursory search of the walk-in closet failed to disclose any record of me going through SERE school. Which probably means it’s boxed up with the rest of the papers in the spare room.

    But I did find a machete, which has to count for something.

    Steve57 (c8cb20)

  271. Dana, Oakland Raiders fan;

    How can you be so spot-on in so many of your political and philosophical musings, yet root for the Raiders ?

    Is Daryl Lamonica your uncle, or something ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  272. The “compassion” dig was meant specifically for Mark.

    And, Elissa, the phrase of “bleeding heart” was raised and defined previously by me and cited as an alternative to the words of “compassion for compassion’s sake.” Personally, I think the latter is as accurate as the former.

    BTW, the “ick factor” probably is triggered in me more strongly by the peculiarities of male homosexuality, as such behavior involving more than one person, than by the oddness of transgenderism per se, meaning an individual in a non-social, non-public setting.

    However, I do admit that on one occasion several years ago I must have flinched in response to a transgendered person I encountered running the cash register of a store. Although I tried to be very nonchalant about him/her, I must have given off a negative vibe. That’s because I noticed that person’s face dropped or darkened, if you will, just around the exact moment when I suddenly realized I was looking at a transsexual (or transvestite). I felt kind of bad because I thought I was being very low-key and courteous at the time, but the look on my own face (of subtle surprise or alarm) apparently said otherwise.

    Mark (99b8fd)

  273. Are you aware that around 1 or 2 live births per thousand are so sexually ambiguous that they require a specialist doctor to figure things out? And that those doctors often “assign” a gender to that individual at birth? At the most conservative estimate, intersex people occur 1 in every 5,000, which in the USA would mean 60,000 people. And it’s probably more.

    Do not conflate intersex with trans issues. They are not the same.

    That, Carlitos, is appropriation of the most blatant and egregious kind and from what what I’ve read it is quite rightly resented by the intersexed community. You do not have permission to use the intersexed to advance your transphilic ideals.

    Chicago Refugee (a345fe)

  274. Mr Stone asked:

    How can you be so spot-on in so many of your political and philosophical musings, yet root for the Raiders ?

    Is Daryl Lamonica your uncle, or something ?

    Well, I am an alumnus of the University of Kentucky, from which George Blanda was graduated, but that’s not it. I’ve been a Raiders’ fan ever since I heard about them, back during the Mad Bomber’s playing days. The Raiders were the team of the 1970s, but, alas! Al Davis’ football genius was stuck in the 70s, and never kept up with the changes in the game.

    And I was born in Oakland, even though I haven’t lived in the Pyrite State (in Antioch) since the end of the second grade, in 1961.

    The very loyal Oakland Raiders fan Dana (af9ec3)

  275. At least it cannot be said about me that I am but a fair-weather fan. This year, the playoffs for sure! :)

    The extremely loyal Oakland Raiders fan Dana (af9ec3)


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