Patterico's Pontifications

4/25/2014

Apparently Concerns About Federal Overreaching Are Now Racist

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:40 am

The ritual denouncement of comments made by Cliven Bundy has begun. Here’s how Adam Nagourney of the New York Times reported his comments:

Cliven Bundy stood by the Virgin River up the road from the armed checkpoint at the driveway of his ranch, signing autographs and posing for pictures. For 55 minutes, Mr. Bundy held forth to a clutch of supporters about his views on the troubled state of America — the overreaching federal government, the harassment of Western ranchers, the societal upheaval caused by abortion, even musing about whether slavery was so bad.

Here is partial video of what he said, focusing on the slavery comments. This is not a guy you want to hire as a spokesman for your ideals, but then, he makes it pretty clear that he’s not so good with words. Still, if you watch the whole thing, he’s clear that he’s not “pro-slavery” but rather musing on the sorry situation caused by our welfare state.

Inelegant? You betcha. Pro-slavery? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

Still, Nagourney has to portray it that way, in order to place complaints about “the overreaching federal government” in the same category as “musing about whether slavery was so bad.” Both, we are led to believe, are radical and unacceptable beliefs.

Still, we have on Yahoo! News the following: A List of Cliven Bundy’s Supporters, Now That We Know He’s a Pro-Slavery Racist. And on CNN we get: Cliven Bundy: Another conservative folk hero exposes racial nerve. And anyone who was foolish enough to overreact and embrace this guy without any reservation is now predictably overreacting and tiptoeing away backwards lest they get the stink on them.

Concerns about federal overreaching are not racist. I don’t know enough about the facts of this case to opine on the merits in detail, but the general thrust of the concern is clear: that the federal government does overreach, and that it’s not racist to say so.

I saw this on Hot Air and while I don’t know if I agree with every word here (because, again, I don’t know enough about the case or Bundy himself to opine on whether he’s a racist or a bigot or what have you), I sure do like this lady’s style. Watch all the way to the end, where she talks about Toure and Jesse Jackson and ringing the dinner bell. It’s great:

264 Responses to “Apparently Concerns About Federal Overreaching Are Now Racist”

  1. This is typical: make an issue about a flawed personality, to neutralize discussion about the issue.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Personally I’m glad that guilt by association is back as a legitimate political topic. If Harry Reid wants to talk about domestic terrorists, let’s talk about the guy who launched his political career in the living room of a real domestic terrorist in Chicago.

    Steve57 (013200)

  3. We need a list of BLM supporters, now that we know they’re sadistic piggy jack-booted fascists.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  4. I think conservatives should keep talking about federal overreach. And when he liberals try to link the topic back to racism we can say something like, “How was I to know Bundy was an unhinged hatemonger? It’s not like I sat in a pew and listened to him every Sunday for 20 years.” Or, “It’s not like I asked I knew him well enough to officiate at my wedding.”

    Steve57 (013200)

  5. I wish we could edit our posts.

    “It’s not like I asked I knew him well enough to officiate at my wedding.”

    I meant to delete those two words.

    Steve57 (013200)

  6. 1. Exactamente.

    The Capitive Media are on full frontal assault this AM wit de ‘Racist’ neutron bomb.

    This will bump ‘Da Plane, the Plane!’ for a day perhaps two until Neilsen is consulted.

    Sorry, you cannot undeluge the jokulhlaup.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  7. I know Mr. Bundy’s comments were taken out of context but I’m certain he was thinking only about those folks living in the White House.

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  8. The ‘Ballad of Cliven Bundy’ will not focus on a “flawed personality”–as the Left is at pains to paint Amerikkka’s wretched–but about opposition to a lawless government, outlaws from top to bottom.

    Rather than file a lien against Bundy’s property they just waded in, shot, rustled and hamstrung his livelihood. An court action against this government is ignored.

    Your days are numbered DC.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  9. I am so looking forward to Ted Cruz speaking from the Senate floor, joining Harry Reid in denouncing domestic terrorists, and those who would consort with them.

    “A domestic terrorist in not just some guy who lives in your neighborhood.”

    With a picture of Bill Ayers in the background.

    Steve57 (525198)

  10. The NY Times lies. There’s no other way to put it. The point of the comparison implies slavery is bad. He’s saying the current situation is worse that this other bad thing. The whole argument falls apart if slavery is a good thing. Great catch, Patrick. A great example of not following the herd.

    East Bay Jay (a5dac7)

  11. Just another insignificant indication of the aphorism ‘sh!t rolls downhill’.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/04/no-cuts-woman-pummeled-with-construction-light-after-cutting-in-line-at-pawn-shop/

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  12. Calling Carlitos!!!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  13. PatDollard.com has the full video of Bundy’s comments.

    Watch and THEN form your opinion. Don’t use the edited video.

    © Sponge (8110ec)

  14. Patterico is nice enough to call it “inelegant” instead of “being an idiot.” Ask any “Negro” whether he or she has more or less freedom as a welfare recipient than a slave, if you can stomach asking such a stupid question on behalf of such a stupid, stupid man.

    He may not be a racist, but we are all entitled to look with contempt on the rhetorical seppuku of morons.

    Leviticus (f9a067)

  15. Lear’s Fool:

    Let go thy hold when a great wheel runs down a hill, lest it break thy neck with following it.

    http://therightscoop.com/army-veteran-gets-great-applause-after-blasting-new-jersey-democrats-at-gun-control-hearing/

    Anyone really think a few hundred thousand SWAT team members can control this population?

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  16. 14 “we are all entitled to look with contempt on the rhetorical seppuku of morons”

    Out of the mouth of babes.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  17. Jonah Goldberg:

    I think we all know what Barack Obama’s foreign policy strategy coming into office was.

    Step 1: Be Barack Obama (and not George W. Bush).

    Step 2: ????

    Step 3: World peace!

    His problem, of course, is, was and will be, timing.

    Relying on capitalism to fund authoritarianism thru the sphincter of world conflagration is, to understate the matter, problematic.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  18. The BLM installed its snipers on high ground in a freaking desert and were disarmed without a shot.

    At which point the goons ran away.

    And these are the fatbutts tasked with taking down Texas Rangers?

    Pass the popcorn.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  19. Who is that woman in the video??
    Awesome!

    gramps, the original (3bbad3)

  20. This post makes an important point about people missing the point, and the woman’s video essay puts an exclamation point on it.

    elissa (9e7de1)

  21. Oh gary, that Japanese guy who is claiming that the Obamas are getting divorced is the same one who wrote a book publishing in Japan claiming that Obama’s birth certificate is fake. He’s just another angry, right-wing, white — uh, wait a minute.

    JVW (9946b6)

  22. 19, 21. Second. Ok, third?

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  23. 22. Fake but accurate.

    Thanx for the background, ima gonna look into these inscrutable Asian’s attitudes regarding comprehensive foreign policy FAIL.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  24. Bundy is an ignorant oldtimer. As was pointed out elsewhere, the defenders of the Alamo surely held some views and opinions that were way out-of-step with the modern day. But said abhorrent opinions should not detract from what was in play at their respective situations. Sending armed snipers and federal thugs to collect a tax bill is pretty effing far from okay.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  25. In Bundy’s case…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  26. ==He may not be a racist, but we are all entitled to look with contempt on the rhetorical seppuku of morons.==

    Yes we are, Leviticus. But we are also entitled duty bound to look with contempt upon the egregious over-reach of the BLM with regard to a civil matter, regardless of whether the person being wronged might be a moron.

    elissa (9e7de1)

  27. I really don’t get how possessing minority genitals is sufficient to establish the moral disposition of others.

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/antonin-scalia-faults-sonia-sotomayor-for-doubly-shameful-suggestion-that-michigan-voters-are-racist/article/2547564

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  28. Leviticus, he may be a stupid, stupid, man and a moron.

    But all he wanted was to be left more or less alone in the middle of nowhere where his family has been since the 1870s.

    Can you think of a better place for him?

    Steve57 (525198)

  29. @21– Even morons have rights. The fact that they may be a moron makes it more important that those rights be protected. They may not have what it takes to do so on their own.

    gramps, the original (3bbad3)

  30. 28. I really don’t get how possessing minority genitals is sufficient to establish the moral disposition of others.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/25/2014 @ 11:14 am

    Of course not. You have to be a wise Latina to get that.

    Steve57 (525198)

  31. 25. “Bundy is an ignorant oldtimer.”

    Unsophisticated and inartful would be more articulate.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  32. I can see Al Sharpton getting ticked off about Bundy’s remarks and leading a “million man march” to his ranch.

    And then they run into those mounted militia groups.

    And a remake of Blazing Saddles breaks out.

    Steve57 (525198)

  33. Patterico is nice enough to call it “inelegant” instead of “being an idiot.” Ask any “Negro” whether he or she has more or less freedom as a welfare recipient than a slave, if you can stomach asking such a stupid question on behalf of such a stupid, stupid man.

    He may not be a racist, but we are all entitled to look with contempt on the rhetorical seppuku of morons.

    Comment by Leviticus (f9a067) — 4/25/2014 @ 9:49 am

    Yeah, but when they were slaves, maybe they were “better off, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things.”

    You know, because “having a family life” was a cherished cornerstone of the peculiar institution, as practiced in the USA. :roll:

    Making this guy some kind of poster boy for anything is so moronic, it’s political suicide. Cut it out, already. He’s Joe the Plumber on steroids.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  34. If slavery is bad, why aren’t we at war with the Arabian Peninsula.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  35. I believe morons are a protected minority under ADA.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  36. 36- Well, that’s only a small part of the AP.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  37. 34. Cherry-picking one comment from your echo chamber as proving your libelous characterization of the Right’s push with this story is unseemly and frankly suggestive that you’ve not the intellectual wherewithal to make your case honestly.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  38. “I believe morons are a protected minority under ADA.”

    askeptic – Appalachians are so I have no reason to doubt you.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. I know that gary gulrud is big on non-sequiturs and off-topic rants, but libelous? What?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  40. Another example where concerned citizens step in where public servants care not to tread.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2014/04/25/feelgood-story-of-the-day-vets-bikers-chase-off-convicts-who-were-squatting-in-soldiers-home/

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  41. “Ask any “Negro” whether he or she has more or less freedom as a welfare recipient than a slave, if you can stomach asking such a stupid question on behalf of such a stupid, stupid man.”

    Leviticus – Life’s hard out there fo a pimp, let alone the ho’s.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. 41. “non-sequitirs”

    You do not want to go there, bud.

    The thrust of the post, that of the Kira Davis’ YouTube video and 95% of the comments here is that our issue involving Bundy has nothing to do with his worth, but everything to do with an Outlaw Federal thugacracy.

    My casting your assertion that we are somehow elevating this Mormon rancher to hero status is, on that basis, a non-sequitir, but more to the point agitprop.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  43. non-sequitur, Doh.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  44. we are somehow elevating this Mormon rancher to hero status

    You missed the links I posted in the other thread, eh? Where he was compared to Gandhi by National Review, lionized by Sean Hannity, given lead-story status on Fox 24/7? Where the god damn Idaho militia showed up with big guns to protect a guy who doesn’t believe that the federal government has a right to exist?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  45. I wish I knew why Carlitos and Leviticus separately both seem to be following this particular story so rabidly. Is Hairy Reid that lovable?

    Without knowing why it’s hard to even know how to respond.

    elissa (9e7de1)

  46. 17. It’s not only Baracvk Obama who has no Plan B.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  47. “Where he was compared to Gandhi by National Review, lionized by Sean Hannity, given lead-story status on Fox 24/7?”

    carlitos – Well, he wasn’t lionized for his moronic personal statements, so what’s your point?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  48. This excerpot in this post is not in fact pro-slavery.

    Bundy here says “in the south” and indicates he is talking about the time of segregation, when they were sharecroppers, before the big migration. At least that’s more reasonable.

    And what about the south now, not in 1916? (and in 1916, or even 1936, they didn’t have this in the north.)

    There has in fact been a big migration back there.

    That’s where some of the population of Detroit probably in fact did go.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  49. I wish I knew why Carlitos and Leviticus separately both seem to be following this particular story so rabidly.

    This particular news story is on cable news at the top and bottom of every hour. At lunch, I was at a bar watching with no sound, and it was on like 3 channels at once.

    Honestly, it pains me to see conservatives defend dickheads like Mr. Bundy. That’s the real reason. You can pretend that it’s all about federal overreach or whatever, but you have Patterico soiling his home page with this idiocy, and commenters like narciso posting youtube apologetics that blacks would be better off picking cotton was taken “out of context.” I like to think that nonsense like the sovereign citizens movement and questioning Barack Obama’s birth certificate are above the normal intellectual standards of my favorite blogs. I find it embarrassing.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  50. I think Cliven Bundy may have been revising and amending his remarks. He’s almost like a politician.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  51. 46. Where did you get this notion that ‘arguments from authority’, e.g., citing NRO or Hannity, presumably pillars of the Right, are somehow not fallacious, o logician thou?

    Deal from first principles using our words. Perhaps then we’ll accord you the status of regular.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  52. Why such an effort to distract from what should be the chief concern, Carlitos?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  53. 52. Yeah, revising one’s words, novel concept that.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  54. Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 4/25/2014 @ 12:33 pm Bundy saying blacks would be better off picking cotton was taken “out of context.”

    Cliven Bundy now wants to make clear now that he wasn’t talking about 1843, but 1943.

    Except that he was the one who mentioned slavery.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  55. “About two blocks south of Harbor Freeway, they were setting the world on fire,” Bundy said. “And who was setting it on fire? It wasn’t We the People. It was the Negro groups — people theirself were setting their own city on fire and raping their own city and stealing from their own city.”

    - Cliven Bundy, racist idiot.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  56. Why it’s almost as if you are one of the Army of Liberals who depend on conflict and a sense of victimhood to earn your living.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  57. 51. “This particular news story is on cable news at the top and bottom of every hour.”

    Stolen from SDA:

    If you hear the dog whistle, you are the dog.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  58. 57. Yeah, clearly you wrote the book on non-sequitur.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  59. “… people theirself were setting their own city on fire and raping their own city and stealing from their own city.”

    Yes, 1992 was a bad time in L.A’s history.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  60. ==You can pretend that it’s all about federal overreach or whatever==

    I get really really testy when people who do not know me try to assess what’s in my heart and brain in order to discount what I have actually said or put on paper. Please do not do that.

    elissa (9e7de1)

  61. 58. I think he’s righteously indignant Bundy is a Luddite who eschews the medicine he offers, branded SSRIs to be specific.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  62. gary and Colonel – carlitos is good people. JD, Karl and I have donned adult diapers (plus eating kilt for JD) and shared a meat feeding frenzy with him many moons ago. All survived.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. Why, the husband of one of my cousins had a co-worker who had his skull crushed at a traffic intersection by one of L.A.’s stalwart citizens. A very bad… some would say sad… time.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  64. 64. I’m cautioned, and am trying, I hope it shows.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  65. Deal from first principles using our words. Perhaps then we’ll accord you the status of regular.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/25/2014 @ 12:34 pm

    A regular? Again, I’ve been commenting on this site 8 or 10 years. What the hell?

    Using your words? Sure. Here’s gary gulrud cheerleading for an armed insurrection vs. the federal government.

    The ‘facts’ are open to dispute. The militias are ready and willing to take losses.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/15/2014 @ 11:23 am

    A lot of that Federal ammo stash is going to be captured I’d wager.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/15/2014 @ 7:49 pm

    The resort to the militia is our future, not the courts and certainly not the ballot box.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/16/2014 @ 9:00 am

    I know the Whigs among us think Chicken Little has to be right once in a Blood Moon.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-16/martin-armstrong-warns-american-civil-unrest-starting-right-schedule

    Well there’s a string of them over the next 18 months.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/16/2014 @ 11:49 pm

    Western Federal seizures will abrogated, delegated regulatory authority extended to bureaucrats will be rescinded, enforcement arms of those Federal departments that survive will be abolished and former employees will be prosecuted with extreme prejudice by militia courts.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/17/2014 @ 8:09 am

    It’s past time for a RESET.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/17/2014 @ 8:30 am

    If I am cheerleading it is for the militia, not Bundy. This is a position consistent with my position over many months, that the ballot box is no solution at all.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/17/2014 @ 7:38 pm

    Evidently this Clausewitz guy gets around:

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57836973-90/utah-lands-lawmakers-federal.html.csp

    Looks like an idea whose time has arrived.

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 4/19/2014 @ 8:14 pm

    So there are your own words. (dowdifications and emboldening are mine). Have at it.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  66. 67. Oh, dear. I’m outed. I am on Citalopram. Does that count for anything?

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  67. Thanks Mr. daleyrocks. That’s very kind of you.

    I’ll do my best to be more civil on my hot-button topics in the future. Apologies to mostly elissa and others.

    I don’t really like or agree with the dog-whistle thingie.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  68. carlitos also has a 1970s porn stache, so he has that going for him, which is nice.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  69. I blame Woody Guthrie for the whole mess.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  70. carlitos – We will also still not speak about what happened between Karl and the bar maid.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  71. 67. “Cheerleading”

    I have not attracted much attention to date.

    Guess I don’t have the elbows for it.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  72. ” I’ve been commenting on this site 8 or 10 years.”

    No one says you haven’t. OTOH, you’re not picking up the knack.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  73. Incorrect

    carlitos (e7c734)

  74. Mr. carlitos has not been commenting as often as he did in earlier years but he often comes bearing memorable gifts, such as the Kielbasa Queen.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  75. 46. …You missed the links I posted in the other thread, eh? Where he was compared to Gandhi by National Review, …

    Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 4/25/2014 @ 12:25 pm

    Do you know anything about the real Gandhi? He wasn’t all that admirable. In many ways Bundy is comparable to Gandhi. If Bundy was beyond doubt a racist, because Gandhi’s own letters and other writings remove all doubt of his racism.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irene-monroe/the-gandhi-none-of-us-kne_b_842941.html

    As with King, Gandhi, too, became an iconic image in The Movement. However, if King and others knew of Gandhi’s racist views of black South Africans, and knew why Gandhi never met with African American civil rights leaders, who were hungry to not only meet the man but to know more about his philosophy of “satyagraha,” Gandhi wouldn’t have been so highly profiled in his public sermons.

    But Gandhi was an unabashedly diehard supporter of India’s Hindu caste system, and would never mix with a lowly group or caste, and Lelyveld in Great Soul lays out Gandhi’s unedited views:

    “We were then marched off to a prison intended for Kaffirs [offensive term equivalent to the n-word],” Gandhi complained during one of his campaigns for the rights of Indians settled there. “We could understand not being classed with whites, but to be placed on the same level as the Natives seemed too much to put up with. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized — the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty and live like animals.”

    In an open letter to the legislature of South Africa’s Natal province, Gandhi wrote of how “the Indian is being dragged down to the position of the raw Kaffir” — someone, he later stated, “whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a number of cattle to buy a wife, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”

    On white Afrikaners and Indians, he wrote: “We believe as much in the purity of races as we think they do.”

    Bundy seems somewhat taken aback by the fact he has been tagged as a racist.

    http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/race-cliven-bundy-apology-nevada/2014/04/25/id/567741/?promo_code=1031D-1&utm_source=www.powerlineblog.com&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1

    While Bundy, 67, admitted that he might not be aware of “what I actually said,” he said that perhaps he had “sinned” and needed “to ask forgiveness.”

    He explained the message of King was for Parks to sit “anywhere in the bus and that nobody would say anything about it.” He then said he would want to sit next to her.

    “I thought about what Rev. Martin Luther King said. And, I thought about Rosa Parks taking her seat at the front of the bus.

    “Now, Rev. Martin Luther King did not want her to take her seat at the front of the bus. That wasn’t what he was talking about. He did not say go to the front of the bus and that’s where your seat was.

    “What Rev. King wanted was that she could sit anywhere in the bus, and that nobody would say anything about it. You and I can sit by her anywhere on the bus. That’s what he wanted. And that’s what I want,” Bundy said.

    Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/race-cliven-bundy-apology-nevada/2014/04/25/id/567741#ixzz2zvjb6900
    Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now!

    Gandhi, you see, wouldn’t sit by Rosa Parks on the bus. Or sit by anyone of a lower caste.

    He also had an absolute fascination with defacation. He’d often receive distinguished visitors while he was on the can. He had a troop of beautiful girls who were dedicated to his cause. It almost undid him politically because while he said he was sleeping nekkid with these beautiful young girls to test his will to keep his vow of celibacy, almost nobody believed him.

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gandhi%27s+girls.-a05167040

    His standard greeting to them in the morning was, “Good morning girls, have you had a good bowel movement?”

    He enjoyed giving them enemas, which he believed were essential for good health or something. They enjoyed giving him enemas in return. Apparently he enjoyed that, too.

    Gandhi had some really unsavory views on race and caste. As a matter of fact, in many ways he was he was a patriotic British subject and I believe had the British treated Indians as equal to whites he wouldn’t have taken up the Indian nationalist cause at all. And he would have been perfectly fine looking down on blacks in South Africa. Or the lower castes.

    In a lot of other ways he was just weird.

    Bundy actually comes out looking good in comparison.

    Point being the cause that Gandhi did take up was a separate issue from Gandhi the man. We remember Gandhi mostly for the cause, which overshadowed the very imperfect man.

    Bundy’s cause isn’t so great, so Bundy’s flaws seem larger in comparison. But they really aren’t.

    Steve57 (525198)

  76. 75. Righteous cut. There’s hope.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  77. then there’s this bit of foolishness,

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/JewsGandhi.html

    he comes off well in comparison to Subhanda Bose, the would be Vichy ruler of India,

    narciso (3fec35)

  78. 61. Yes, 1992 was a bad time in L.A’s history.

    This reminds me of something in the Waco search warrant:

    https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.affidavit.html

    ….. On December 7, 1992, I spoke with Special Agent Carlos Torres, BATF, Houston, Texas, who had been assisting me
    in a portion of this investigation. He related to me the results of his interview on December 4, 1992, with Joyce Sparks, Texas Department of Human Services, Waco, Texas….

    Ms. Sparks also said that on April 6, 1992, she visited the compound again. On this occasion she talked with David Koresh….

    …She said that during her conversation with Koresh, he told her that he was the “Messenger” from God, that the world was coming to an end, and that when he “reveals” himself the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to what was going to happen in Waco, Texas…..

    If this story is true, David Koresh really was a prophet!

    The Los Angeles rioting took place

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

    from April 29 to May 4, 1992 after the date of this alleged conversation with David Koresh, which is stated in the affidavit to have taken place on April 6!!

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  79. Now it is true that this wasn’t made public till sometime after the fire, but how is it that nobody noticed this but me?

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  80. 81. No clue.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  81. Carlitos predates almost everyone here.

    JD (5c1832)

  82. “What Rev. King wanted was that she could sit anywhere in the bus, and that nobody would say anything about it. You and I can sit by her anywhere on the bus. That’s what he wanted. And that’s what I want,” Bundy said.

    “I want her to be able to sit anywhere in the bus,” he continued. “And I want to be able to sit by her anywhere in that bus. And that’s what he wanted. He didn’t want this prejudiced thing like the media tried to put on me yesterday. And I’m not going to put up with that because that’s not what he wanted. And that’s not what I want.

    “I want to sit by her anywhere in that bus. And I want anybody to be able to do the same thing. That’s what he was after,” Bundy said.

    Bundy called the criticism of his words on race a form of prejudice.

    “We’re talking about not being able to exercise what we think in our feelings. We don’t have freedom to say what we want.

    “If I say Negro or black boy or slave, if those people cannot take those kinds of words and not be offensive, then Martin Luther King doesn’t have his job done yet,” he said.

    Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/race-cliven-bundy-apology-nevada/2014/04/25/id/567741#ixzz2zvqIxTXA
    Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now!

    Whatever he is, I think we can safely say Cliven Bundy is not a member of Toastmaster’s International.

    Steve57 (525198)

  83. More from the latest racist:

    http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/unedited-tape-bundy-emerges-sheds-light-racist-remarks

    One begins to suspect astroturfed reportage.

    I denounce myself, if insufficiently.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  84. My spidey sense were tingling from the first moment, and yet after American Bridge, after David Corn ‘excellent adventure, so many are fooled,

    narciso (3fec35)

  85. 87. It just goes to show, without out actual work by, e.g., our own Mr. 57, we’re likely to take the propaganda of various Ministry of Truth mouthpieces and run, half-cocked, amok.

    Like when our EBT card doesn’t work and the savant next door says she heard it was the GOP rejecting Obama’s gracious Farm Bill and whatnot.

    And we have to register our disenfranchised disenchantment by looting a TV and a bottle or three of Colt45.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  86. Works every time.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  87. Colt 45, that is.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  88. Comment by elissa (9e7de1) — 4/25/2014 @ 12:25 pm

    Stockholm Syndrome?

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  89. Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/25/2014 @ 12:34 pm

    SF, the term is: “To Revise and Extend”.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  90. Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 4/25/2014 @ 12:37 pm

    Having been here for both the Watts Riot, and the Rodney King “Rebellion”, the only fault I can find with that particular statement is the direction from the Harbor Frwy that it occurred since the freeway runs north-south.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  91. Not helpful:

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/04/24/Militia-to-BLM-We-are-prepared-to-use-Deadly-Force

    Better would be to blockade the counties’ Dunkin Donuts.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  92. Comment by Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be) — 4/25/2014 @ 1:19 pm

    SF, since it’s kind of hard to ask him, I’ll just assume that he was thinking about the Watts Riots (1965) when he made that statement.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  93. Having been here for both the Watts Riot, and the Rodney King “Rebellion”, the only fault I can find with that particular statement is the direction from the Harbor Frwy that it occurred since the freeway runs north-south.

    Comment by askeptic (8ecc78) — 4/25/2014 @ 2:26 pm

    So Negros aren’t “We The People?”

    carlitos (e7c734)

  94. I didn’t even know Bundy had bodyguards.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUHkw3UH3N4

    Bundy’s Black Bodyguard to CNN: ‘He Treats Me As His Own Family’

    The thing is Bundy doesn’t talk for a living. So, yes, he’s inarticulate. But I could never get a sense that he was pleased with what he saw in North Las Vegas. Or that he was trying to say he thought blacks were better off as slaves. More like having thrown off the bonds of slavery, and later Jim Crow, did they really get the better deal they were after?

    A racist, it seems to me, would be happy to see blacks living in squalor and filth because that would confirm their inferior status. They’re getting what they deserve because they’re no better than that. And Bundy didn’t sound like he was happy with what he sees in North Las Vegas.

    Steve57 (525198)

  95. Give it a rest, carlitos. It isn’t like Bundy is running for public office or is reading off a teleprompter like our dear Preezy. Who still manages to say some really stupid things anyway.

    You’re holding him to a higher standard than the press holds Joe Biden. Like at the anniversary of the Boston bombing when Biden said “it was worth it.” The let it go.

    And the thing is, all Joe Biden or Barack Obama do for a living is talk. And they still stick their feet in their mouths.

    Steve57 (525198)

  96. Pillaging, plundering and murder are acceptable ways of expressing dissatisfaction with things for some of we teh people.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  97. Bundy is racist…is he pro-slavery? I doubt it, but there are plenty of white people on welfare and I don’t hear him talking about them..no he is too concerned with the “negras”. In fact, Bundy himself has been getting free grazing courtesy the feds for 20 years. And then of course there is his buddy Sheriff Mack who wanted to use women as human shields because it would make the feds look bad if women were shot.

    Just because I am right of center does not mean I am going to make a hero out of every crack pot with a grievance against the government.

    Terrye C (475c42)

  98. “Pillaging, plundering and murder are acceptable ways of expressing dissatisfaction with things for some of we teh people.”

    Colonel – Are you speaking of the Administration supported Occupy Wall Street movement?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. Not specifically, daley, but if teh foo sh*ts, they can wear it.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  100. … and it’s better that they wear it, instead of decorating police cruisers with it.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  101. 81. 82. Too often, even the most public things don’t really get examined.

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  102. A racist, it seems to me, would be happy to see blacks living in squalor and filth because that would confirm their inferior status. They’re getting what they deserve because they’re no better than that. And Bundy didn’t sound like he was happy with what he sees in North Las Vegas.

    Comment by Steve57 (525198) — 4/25/2014 @ 2:46 pm”

    No, he certainly did not sound happy.

    “If I call — if I say negro or black boy or slave, I’m not — if those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offended, then Martin Luther King hasn’t got his job done then yet. They should be able to — I should be able to say those things and they shouldn’t offend anybody.”

    Hey, it’s not Bundy’s fault that the porch monkeys in the projects in North Las Vegas don’t have anything to do. They just never learned to pick cotton. Clearly, this is Obama’s fault.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  103. 85. So we learn here:

    1. It was the Endangered Species Act that got Bundy in trouble.

    2. The Bureau of Land Management tried to argue there were some real problems with Bundy’s cattle grazing there (as opposed to it just being violation of the law) and put up a web page, but it evidentaly contained lies or very problematical assertions and they have deleted it.

    Or perhaps the problem was that it cited several environmental groups as complaining, and on second thought, that doesn’t look so good, because not everybody considers them good guys.

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  104. yeah the whole porch monkey thing was unbelievable somebody should shoot all of this man’s moo cows just cause he’s such a disgusting loser

    then the cows can be sent to an incinerator and turned into electricities for so we can make pop tarts

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  105. Just because Bundy has expressed ignorant racist views, does not mean that he should be thrown to the wolves vis a vis the grazing dispute with the BLM.
    A person must not be a candidate for canonization in order to be supported when they are being wronged by the Feds.

    It’s kind of like the old expression, “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”
    In other words, it is possible that ‘they’ are out to get a paranoid person.
    Likewise, you can be a bit of an ignorant kook and the Feds can be wronging you at the same time.

    Rights, due process, and ethical treatment aren’t just to be applied to the angels and saints and the politically correct among us.
    Rather, rights, due process, and ethical treatment are also for flawed people, and kooks, too.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  106. Jaysus, carlitos, you stole the trophy away with what you just wrote.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  107. yeah I know a thing or two about a thing or two

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  108. The soft racism of low exhortations…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  109. the same Center for Bio Diversity, was also cited in the Nagourney piece, as authority,

    narciso (3fec35)

  110. In my experience, I’ve witnessed much more overt, and hostile racism on the part of Latinos against black folks than from any other group. The ignorant Bundy is a veritable saint compared to most of them.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  111. 86. Bundy:

    “Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know, I understand that they come over here against our Constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people — and I’ve worked side by side a lot of them.

    Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structures than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people. And we need to have those people join us and be with us not, not come to our party.”

    It sounds like the end of that is garbled or transcribed incorrectly. (should the word “not” them be “and”?) but it sounds like he agrees with George W. Bush and Rick Perry and Jeb Bush and John Boehner about amnesty.

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  112. Rights, due process, and ethical treatment aren’t just to be applied to the angels and saints and the politically correct among us.
    Rather, rights, due process, and ethical treatment are also for flawed people, and kooks, too.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 4/25/2014 @ 3:20 pm

    Jésucristo – What part of a 20 year legal battle did you miss? How much more due process does this a$$hole deserve?

    Is Mr. Bundy violating the law – yes or no?
    Should law enforcement officers enforce the law – yes or no?

    carlitos (e7c734)

  113. who handed grampa social justice the conch anyway?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  114. At this point I think it would be best if this whole situation ended with massive bloodshed all around and an extraordinarily large amount of property damage.

    Then the healing can start.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  115. Aw, go bake some cookies, feets.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  116. His comments weren’t the least bit racist. The press is just looking for a reason to cast a conservative as a racist.

    CrustyB (d4da92)

  117. It is striking how one can see the wholesale encroachment on long held customs, and yet see only squirrel,

    narciso (3fec35)

  118. Should the government send snipers and SWAT teams to collect an overdue tax bill, yes or no?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  119. 116. Comment by carlitos (e7c734) — 4/25/2014 @ 3:30 pm

    Should law enforcement officers enforce the law – yes or no?

    Bundy is at least consistent on this question.

    Sammy Finkelman (6ee5be)

  120. Did Carlitos commit an on-line hate crime with his excremental characterization of black people, yes or no? Should he be dragged from his keyboard at gunpoint, yes or no?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  121. carlitos danger,

    Bundy’s racially insensitive remarks are completely separate from his grazing dispute.
    However, in your comments in #51, it sure sounds like you believe that Bundy should not be defended in the grazing dispute due to his racially insensitive remarks.
    You even accused his defenders of “pretending that it’s about federal overreach.”

    No, friend, I’m sorry, nobody’s “pretending.”
    Sending the SWAT team to collect a bill is Federal Overreach, particularly when compared to the way that the Feds refuse to defend our soverign borders.

    The Bundy Grazing Case is indicative of The Obama Regime’s selective enforcement of Federal laws, as we’ve seen in numerous public examples during the past five and a half years.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  122. I made rice today. I’m learning how to make white rice still. My whole life I been a brown rice kinda pikachu. Then I researched brown rice and found out it ain’t no thang, not really.

    In my rice cooker so far I think using equal parts water to whit rice does the best job. This is for the wic rice.

    Once I master the wic rice I’m a tackle basmati for so I can make persian herb rice.

    http://sabrinaspassions.blogspot.com/2011/03/recipe-persian-herb-rice-sabzi-polow.html

    It’s challenging, all these new and different kinds of rices, but I’ll keep working at it even whilst the desert of Nevada is bestained red with the blood of patriots.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  123. equal parts water to *white* rice I mean

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  124. mister happyfeet, since you expressed a preference for white rice, we cannot defend you next time you get a wrongful traffic ticket.
    or something.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  125. Basmati and jasmine are the shizzle. Use vegetable chicken broth for extra schwerve.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  126. However, in your comments in #51, it sure sounds like you believe that Bundy should not be defended in the grazing dispute due to his racially insensitive remarks.
    You even accused his defenders of “pretending that it’s about federal overreach.”

    Defending this jerkoff for anything is stupid. He doesn’t believe in the federal government’s right to exist. He’s going to have a world of hurt descend on him, and he deserves every bit of it. This idiocy hurts the conservative brand. It makes conservatism a punchline. Please stop it.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  127. good tip I’m a try the broth thing next

    I don’t really have a preference for white rice but persian food is one of my new things

    they have this mole I’m kinda obsessed with

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  128. I used to prefer white rice, but more and more I use pilaf.

    narciso (3fec35)

  129. I’m big on pilaf too. Sautee some garlic, onions and whatever, add the rice for a bit and then broth, herbs and wine. Mmm.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  130. you all do realize that Bundy’s remarks were selectively edited to make him sound and look stupid/racist, right?

    nice to see that bit of character assassination was so successful.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  131. he doubled down on the whole porch monkey thing though

    who does that?

    no pilaf for you Mr. Bundy

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  132. Well it’s more important to be outraged rather than find out the facts, because that way the Democrats will never come after you,

    I don’t who I’m more dissapointed with, Hannity or Loesch, in not bothering to get Cliven’s side about this,

    narciso (3fec35)

  133. this had nothing to do with race

    the senile old coot should shut his stupid whore mouth

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  134. I think the point, he was trying to make, is urban life, devoid of work opportunities, often intact families, is in itself a time of servitude, as compared to the freedom he has on the range,

    narciso (3fec35)

  135. As far as I know “negroes” had not yet been mentioned when the feds arrived and snipers shot his prize bulls dead from a helicopter. Or when some of the calves died from being run while they were too young. Or when some other cattle were “euthanized” by as many as five gun shots and left to rot. And Bundy’s son was tazed and set upon by dogs. No, I’m not pretending it’s about government over-reach. This is government over-reach.

    Harry Reid’s BLM was losing the PR war about this and people were beginning to ask about all the land the government owns in the west and why, and who’s benefiting at who else’s detriment. Obviously the 24 hour cable media and the NYT could not allow that to happen.

    elissa (9e7de1)

  136. elissa just because this loser is a senile old race-baiting coot doesn’t mean the United States government isn’t an out of control fascist juggernaut (you know like the nazis)

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  137. carlitos… IMO, the derogatory term you used to describe our black brothers was more offensive than the ignorant, poor choice of words the old man used. What was your excuse for what you did there?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  138. Yes, fish gotta swim, Democrats have to lie, why does our side have to go along with it;

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/04/24/krauthammer_on_bundy_it_isnt_enough_to_say_i_dont_agree_with_what_he_said.html

    narciso (3fec35)

  139. Didn’t Reid basically telegraph what their strategy visavis Bundy would be? It was at Drudge early in the week and it couldn’t have been any clearer.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  140. that “derogatory term” was the exact trope Grandpa Bundy was employing Mr. Colonel

    he’s very old and muddleheaded, our Grandpa Bundy

    he says the darnedest things sometimes

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  141. Mr Feets @140–Kevin D. Williamson agrees with you. But he said it sorta more nicer, I think.


    There’s no explaining away Mr. Bundy’s remarks, and I abhor them, and am pleased that Rich Lowry and others have taken the time to address them.

    There’s no explaining away the lawlessness of the Obama administration or the crimes of the IRS, either. A nation can survive its cranks, but not a criminal government.

    elissa (9e7de1)

  142. Well some on the left, feel free to trade in the worst stereotypes of minorities, to make their case, Maher, Jackson, et al,

    narciso (3fec35)

  143. #144… not that I’ve seen or heard, feets. He didn’t use those words.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  144. yes Mr. Williamson nails it I think

    no he didn’t use those words Mr. Colonel but he employed the trope

    plus, cotton

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  145. So lets forget that Reid changed the qualifications on the BLM job, so his son could get a job,

    narciso (3fec35)

  146. no Mr. narciso let’s not forget Harry Reid is filthy and corrupt and let’s not forget his son is a dweeby p.o.s. loser

    similarly if you are going to the Nevada rangelands to stand with Grandpa Bundy in stalwart opposition to fascist tyranny, do not forget sunscreen

    and hydrate hydrate hydrate

    i can’t emphasize this enough

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  147. Ignorant, old Bundy is just a prawn of pioneer loins, feets. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  148. What Mr. Bundy knows is, he knows his moo cows gotta eat.

    And this is wisdom. It’s the key to unlocking the chinese puzzle box, but he’s going to have to bring a LOT more focus to the table.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  149. Maybe they will start selling turtles, roasted by the solar arrays,

    narciso (3fec35)

  150. Concur, elissa @145. I’m just not ready to throw this guy under the bus for wrongspeak.

    But even if he’s completely unlikeable with no redeeming characteristics, so what?

    If he’s dead tomorrow the Obama administration will still be in the hole.

    Steve57 (525198)

  151. and you shall know them by their fruits Mr. narciso

    figs and thistles indeed

    it’s after five

    you want you can make a martini

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  152. if you strike Grandpa Bundy down Mr. Steve he will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

    and yes the US government *is* that stupid

    Yet to this very day the screams of the burning children of Waco echo faintly yet plaintively across the vast and lonely expanse of the American West. Screams born of a fire what immolated much of the moral authority the United States government once possessed.

    We should all learn to play the harmonica.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  153. mr feets did you know they make a drinker’s clock what tells you where it’s five o’clock somewhere in the world for every hour of the day and night in case you wanna pretend you’re there and have a martini?

    elissa (9e7de1)

  154. Mr. Feets – I’m going to wash that man, that Mr. Bundy, right out of my hair, but keep on talking about fascist government overreach.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  155. show tunes, daleyrocks? that may have been a mistake iykwimaityd

    *raises one eyebrow*

    elissa (9e7de1)

  156. what I’m a make goes sorta like this

    2 shots cachaça

    1 shot sweet n sour

    1 shot rose’s lime

    shake it up with ice

    shake it like it did you dirty

    then enjoy it in a martini glass and pause pensively for a moment as you mourn the lost honor of a once-great country

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  157. elissa – A lot of philistines here.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  158. Mr. daley I think that’s a wise course of action

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  159. Mr. Feets – Porgy and Bess?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  160. Sorry, you meant the washing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  161. For those of you not up on the history of southern Nevada, there’s this:

    On May 5, 1866, the United States Congress approved legislation transferring the portions of [Arizona Territory]Pah-Ute and Mohave counties west of the Colorado River and west of 114 degrees west longitude to the state of Nevada. The assignment took effect on January 18, 1867.

    Since then, various federal agencies have been created to administer public land but in southern Nevada,they don’t “own” it. The U.S. Congress gave the land to the state government after Nevada became a state. Ceding this land to federal ownership was never part of the statehood arrangement. This is why Cliven Bundy takes exception to the feds acting like he’s just a squatter and also why he gave his improvement money to the state of Nevada instead of the BLM.

    Cliven Bundy may need a wordsmith to succinctly express his position, but the BLM and their hired goons are clearly in the wrong here.

    PPs43 (6fdef4)

  162. the attorney for these lads, was Greenwald’s law partner for a while, if memory serves;

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/04/three-occupy-domestic-terrorists-get-prison-terms-for-5-8-years/

    narciso (3fec35)

  163. I do think those who resolutely defend this government, and are coincidentally urban denizens, will, along with unwitting neighbors, get their opportunity of martyrdom.

    Will it be rolling brownouts crashing the powergrid, a botched software upgrade to the EBT system, a butchered alleged teen offender, empty grocery shelves,…

    1965 will be reprised.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  164. 167. Thanx for the clarification, not that some bother to read.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  165. So… Other than Fox News, nobody else was covering this Bundy Ranch/BLM story. But as soon as it can be tagged as a “race” deal, all the networks cover it. Imagine that.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  166. Honestly, it pains me to see conservatives defend dickheads like Mr. Bundy. That’s the real reason. You can pretend that it’s all about federal overreach or whatever, but you have Patterico soiling his home page with this idiocy, and commenters like narciso posting youtube apologetics that blacks would be better off picking cotton was taken “out of context.” I like to think that nonsense like the sovereign citizens movement and questioning Barack Obama’s birth certificate are above the normal intellectual standards of my favorite blogs. I find it embarrassing.

    Hey carlitos. Nice to see you. To everyone: carlitos is an old-timer here. Be nice.

    So:

    carlitos, how am I “soiling my home page” with this? First, the topic is an interesting topic that many people want to comment on. It’s natural for me to post on it. I assume your problem is not with the fact that I am posting on the story, but with the fact that you want to me to engage in the ritualistic denunciation of this guy.

    But please tell me: what, specifically, is it that I wrote that you object to?

    Again, I’d like something specific, because generalized complaints that I am “defending Bundy” or some such aren’t going to be very convincing. You’d have to show that my defense is inaccurate, or otherwise a bad argument.

    I’m here and happy to discuss it. But can you be specific?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  167. I’m not holding out the guy as a poster child of anything, by the way. But I would like the focus to remain on the right topic, and I would also like that his comments not be distorted in the mad rush to tar anyone who has supported him in the past few days.

    If you view his comments in their full context and with charity, are they “pro-slavery”? No. Many have argued that the living conditions of slaves, as distinct from their state of bondage, were often no more horrific than that of poor whites at the time. (People who argue that are often branded as pro-slavery racist Neo-confederates, but slinging those terms around does not render their arguments invalid.) If they have a point, then it is the state of bondage, and not the living conditions themselves, that constituted the true outrage of slavery. And I believe Bundy agrees.

    Is the comparison to the welfare state one that I would make? No. Is it one I am eager to defend? Not really. Does that make every concern about federal overreaching therefore illegitimate and equivalent to (or at least as repugnant as) a love of slavery? I say no.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  168. So posting the actual video of his remarks, are apologetics, of course you probably bought the notion, that Reverend Wright’s remarks were out
    of context, although they were in keeping with the 20 years of influence he had over Obama,

    narciso (3fec35)

  169. Everything this administration does, destroys the future of millions, maybe Bundy didn’t start out this way, but seeing as there is no justice, no accountability for anything in this administration, that he regards foreign foes then certain Americans
    that might jaundice your world view,

    narciso (3fec35)

  170. there’s no upside in this whole Bundy thing anymore

    not really

    but the fascist BLM whores are the gift what will keep on giving

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  171. no, pikachu, it’s a ‘teachable moment’ Bundy’s figured after 20 years, ‘there’s nothing left to lose’, where as many of the top men, seem willing to feed the crocodile, in hopes they will be eaten last,

    narciso (3fec35)

  172. he’s a racist hick Mr. narciso

    I can’t work like this.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  173. I don’t get this habit where pointing out that the BLM engaged in awful practices makes Our hero, or representative of the conservative brand. People did the same thing with Zimmerman. If you pointed out the facts that were in his favor, suddenly he became your hero. I simply do not get it.

    What I do know is that the Left is in a lather over this. MediaMutterz probably had 10 links to Bundy stories on their main page yesterday.

    JD (5c1832)

  174. Well the left has their two minute, sometimes two year hate, and they will not allow Emmanuel Goldstein, to get out of the rifle scope,

    narciso (3fec35)

  175. The approbation of men is an illusory possession.

    It can be retracted in an instant, and its worth depends on their worth.

    The charge of racism today, hurled by the most unscrupulous of racists may not be a badge of courage but it invariably tars those who employ it as too indolent to use words conveying a meaning.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  176. People that can’t see the forest for the trees re: this story suck, and they suck hard.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  177. This thing has the maggoty stink of Harry Reid all over it. That asshole is corrupt to his very core.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  178. the key thing we’ve learned is that the BLM is innately deeply ardently fascist, enthusiastically disdainful of freedom, and fundamentally anti-american

    and we’ve learned there’s a lot of Americans ready and willing to pop a cap in their fascist asses

    I think that’s a win.

    Bundy can go do whatever geriatric hick racists do.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  179. the BLM like their counterparts at the GRU, have their eyes on 90,000 acres of lands in Texas, they say date back to 1803, when it was still a Spanish territory,

    narciso (3fec35)

  180. 183. Yeah, I don’t live in fear of being labeled a racist.

    But I would take very seriously being labeled, in actuality, a c*cksucker.

    I’ll sleep well tonight supposing that a distinction between me and ibn Dunham.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  181. Meanwhile, elsewhere in Nevada, they are holding the Hillary-shoe-thrower lady without bail on two misdemeanor charges.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SHOE_THROWER_HILLARY_CLINTON

    Kevin M (b11279)

  182. american justice system lol

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  183. 188. Ironic how they treat the black sheep from the fold.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  184. here’s my “gosh I’m not really at all comfortable with how fascist this crappy joke of a country has become” song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z8OP8LIHho

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  185. I wondered what the reference to the Watt’s riots, were all about,

    narciso (3fec35)

  186. I don’t see the overreaching. Bundy is not amenable to court orders. The BLM has no other remedy besides self-help. Bundy was not going to round up his cattle off the federal land — the BLM had to do it. It was a job for half cowboy-half U.S. Marshal but I don’t know that such ever existed outside of Hollywood. The BLM’s personnel were clumsy at it. I have yet to see that anything they did was illegal, though.

    nk (dbc370)

  187. I guess being free men doesn’t mean we shouldn’t correct their thinking:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/04/black-bundy-bodyguard-hes-not-a-racist-i-would-take-a-bullet-for-that-man-video/

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  188. there’s no really good reason for the BLM whores to exist unless they wanna pass out free blowjobs and cupcakes out back the Bob’s Big Boy in Burbank

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  189. say around ten-ish

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  190. 193. Even if all the questions of technical legality fell with the government, that will not end the issue in their favor.

    We’ve entered a period of chronic civil disobedience from every corner until a suitable resolution is reached.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  191. It does seem the whole government’s role is to facilitate a Soros tentacle, whether it’s the EPA, shutting down the PebbleMine for EarthJustice, the BLM putting huge swaths of land off limits, for the Center for Biological Diversity, the Senate intelligence committee serving as star chamber for Human Rights Watch,

    narciso (3fec35)

  192. What else I don’t see are the federal crimes the Hillary shoe-thrower is accused of. Is the Mandalay Resort a federal reservation too? (Serious question, given what’s been revealed about federal/state ownership of Nevada.)

    nk (dbc370)

  193. 198. And the government and the wise guys are fist in glove.

    The last of those who do the right thing because it is right are octogenarians.

    Everyone else follows the law only because they fear its power to ruin their lives.

    But despite their power and technology, their reach is limited by their resources which are contracting inexorably.

    Providing legislated services has become impracticable. Maintaining government itself is next.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  194. One of the federal counts against the shoe thrower is trespass. Maybe Mandalay Bay is federal land. And she is being held in a prison for profit under contract with the Bureau of Prisons. Maybe the BLM should have given the Bundy job to Blackwater. How did Harry Reid become so rich? But then again, how did Neill Bush? The Universe is full of unanswerable questions.

    nk (dbc370)

  195. Our empire has begun to collapse. It is not cheerleading to bear witness to that fact.

    When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19″Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.

    Pray for the Will of God and your prayers will surely be answered.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  196. america lol

    it’s a superpower don’tcha know

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  197. I’ve been through there, if it’s federal land, I’d be greatly surprised, as to the other question, Neil has been hawking software for NCLB testing regimes,

    narciso (3fec35)

  198. 204. The bummer is self-interest, the signal attribute of human life, that losing it leads to the individual’s death, is injurious to domestic concord and good order.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-25/furious-russia-downgraded-just-above-junk-sp-proposes-scorched-earth-retaliation-aga

    Maybe the US and the former USSR will survive a financial war, without its leading to worse, but don’t count on it.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  199. Well that’s probably overratetedd, however self inflicted wounds seem to be a pattern;

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/25/russian-official-under-us-sanction-plays-key-role-in-pentagon-space-program/

    narciso (3fec35)

  200. So, have we answered the central question, is Cliven Bundy racist.?

    It seems to me that just a few days ago the central question was different. Is the federal government out of control. My aren’t we easily manipulated?

    This isn’t a matter for just a bunch of cowboys. Suppose, as in the Kelo case, a city has marked a neighborhood for death. Should an imminent domain case hinge on every single person contending the issue saying exactly the right thing at the right time? One shipyard worker comes home and says something that can be construed as racist. Should that blow it for everyone?

    Steve57 (525198)

  201. Hard currency was a chronic problem with the USSR, it worked around it, and that guy quoted in the article you linked seems to be on the ball. And there will always be Armand Hammers.

    nk (dbc370)

  202. If there were any real reporters left it’d be interesting to know how much the armed incursion at Bundy’s cost the government in order to collect a debt– which has been called as high as a million dollars and as low as 250,000 dollars. Let’s just say all those snipers, helicopters, armed feds, horses, communications gear, trucks, pens, jeeps, dogs, etc. over several days were not cheap. It almost makes one wonder if there was another motive in play other than just collecting a debt.

    elissa (2a9d77)

  203. those are doubleunplusgood questions, possibly crimethink, some are easily distracted,

    narciso (3fec35)

  204. 207. Yes, there’s that, there’s also death by a thousand cuts.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  205. Why do you say collecting a debt, elissa? It seems to me like a forcible entry and detainer type action — eviction of Bundy’s cattle from the federal land. Was there a levy against Bundy and his assets being seized for sheriff’s auction to satisfy a judgment for the unpaid fees? Because, yes, that does involve a forcible taking.

    nk (dbc370)

  206. Way I look at it Michelle owes taxpayers like me way more than a million dollars.

    elissa (2a9d77)

  207. And the seizure would have been by federal marshals or the sheriff, not by the BLM I don’t think.

    Anybody do colection work? Do the federal courts enforce levies or do you have to file the judgment in a state court (like a foreign judgment) and get the local sheriff to do it?

    nk (dbc370)

  208. Let me say this about that, admittedly not reading all of the posts just looking at my computer now for the first time today.

    Some years ago when we lived in “The Badlands”, some little girls hanging out on the front porch of our row-home asked my wife, “Who lives here with you?” When she answered, “My husband and my 2 children” they said with amazement, “Your husband!? You’re married!?” When she assured them it was actually true, they asked, “Where is he?” Ditto the amazement when she said, “He’s at work.”
    “He has a job!?!”

    Those kids would not have been better off in slavery with a mean slave owner breaking up families and selling off whoever,
    but maybe they would have been better off being the children of a share-cropper picking cotton. At least they would have learned about work, responsibility, and having goals in life. The odds are probably pretty good that those girls will also end up unmarried with kids and no one working, being warehoused in a slum so they can vote Democrat. Probably most children of share-croppers (or old-style coal miners) ended up doing something better with their lives when they got the chance.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  209. IANAL and I have not seen the court findings or orders,nk, so I probably incorrectly used a legal term. — I initially assumed based on the media’s talking points that the feds wanted the cattle off the land to reclaim it for Harry and secondarily planned to pen and sell the herd to satisfy the owed grazing fees. They did pen about 250-300 of them. But when they started killing (excuse me euthanizing) cattle instead of putting them up for sale (probably knowing no self respecting rancher would buy them) it appeared that the “mission” changed and became even more evil.

    elissa (2a9d77)

  210. carlitos,

    You must be joking, dude.
    While Bundy is no saint, and he’s got some of that ignorant foot-in-mouth disease, that’s still no justification for the Feds doing what they’re doing to him.

    I think a lot of Americans feel that it is a little queer that the Feds are enforcing laws about “trespassing” when it comes to hungry cattle out in the middle of nowwhere Nevada, but when it comes to sovereign national borders, there’s no enforcement, and no boot-stomping letter of the law that you are pontificating about.

    Seriously, bro.
    Let’s get some perspective about it all.

    Elephant Stone (77e955)

  211. And learned about scurvy, pellagra and Wernicke’s firsthand, too?

    nk (dbc370)

  212. JD makes an excellent point in comment #180.
    He says that just because we point out the facts are in favor of Zimmerman or Bundy, et al,it doesn’t mean that we are necessarily canonizing that person as a saint or emblazening him as a folk hero.
    Rather, it just means we are calling it like we see it—and the facts happen to point in the direction of supporting that individual.

    It’s so funny how the Left creates this paradigm where right wingers must by default support every moment or action by a person they support, whereas Lefties are licensed to make tons of compromises and compartmentalizations when it comes to their “heroes.”

    Effing Senator Ted Kennedy left a woman to drown, didn’t report it to authorities until lunchtime the following day, and then eleven years later, he nearly upended a SITTING DEMOCRAT PRESIDENT in the 1980 Primaries.

    Unbelievable the double standard.
    But that’s the thing about Lefties…there’s a total lack of self-awareness. And logic.

    Elephant Stone (77e955)

  213. You can’t round up cattle without snipers these days, just ask the BLM.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  214. Me, in case anybody was wondering, I was very concerned with the story about five Buffalo Bills cheerleaders today suing the team and one of them describing the “jiggle test” they had to undergo every week in front of their female coach. Ermagawd, talk about a waronwymyn and objectification!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. The Alice in Wonderland approach to governance and the excuse-making for armed oppression of American citizens does not inspire confidence .

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  216. does not inspire confidence .

    … unless you are a 3 percenter.

    Molon Labe.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  217. 223. I’m conflicted, but they should receive a living wage.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  218. gary – I wanted to administer and improve the test.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  219. “I get really really testy when people who do not know me try to assess what’s in my heart and brain in order to discount what I have actually said or put on paper. Please do not do that.”

    - elissa

    You don’t say. I make one comment on the subject and you accuse me of following this story “rabidly.” What? What about *my* heart and brain?!

    Please don’t do that.

    Leviticus (79e069)

  220. the left acts as if it’s till the era of Mad Men, when the world has infinitely more opportunity for African Americans, Latinos, et al, yet it is in their interest, to keep that narrative alive, with Zimmerman, with Bundy, with Dorner,

    narciso (3fec35)

  221. #FoamingAtTehMouth

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  222. Why do they always have to concede the opposition’s arguments, when there is no need;

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2014/04/26/george-zimmerman-cliven-bundy-and-the-importance-of-separating-principles-from-people/

    narciso (3fec35)

  223. i don’t even know what era the crusty racist geezer is acting like we’re in

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  224. If he grew up in California, he knows what the 50s and 60s were like,

    narciso (3fec35)

  225. some years the cows eated real real good

    but some years the cows didn’t eat so good

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  226. I am soooo tired of the left/Democrats (and their willing accomplices) beating up on people on the right (and only on the right) for them saying something racist, homophobic, sexist whatever when they didn’t say it.

    When do we start saying ENOUGH to the lying bastard drama queens on the left?

    When do those who are supposed to be on the right start fighting back?

    Hannity couldn’t kick Bundy to the curb fast enough. But Sean always been a weather vane. A prime example of being oversensitive to the left’s hissy fits.

    I’m soo tired of the lies.

    jakee308 (f1b953)

  227. When?
    When the Right has a megaphone as big as the Left’s.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  228. sometimes the best way to fight back is to not grab a microphone and talk about cotton-picking porch monkeys for an hour

    it’s one of the finer points of strategy

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  229. Speaking of drama queens and there’s Happy Foot-In-Mouth.

    You know he said nothing like that. (or maybe you don’t as you have always struck me as being cast in the mold of the latter day lefties who criticize and castigate those who said something they didn’t like but strangely they never listened to what the person said.)

    It’s crap like what you just spewed on the screen that I’m tired of. Distortion of what was said, putting words in the persons mouth and/or out right lying about it to make some non existent point.

    No one said boo when Harry Reid spoke about the well spoken Negro, Mr. Obama.
    No one had a problem with a Grand KLeagle being a US Senator.
    You don’t hear any wailing and gnashing of teeth over LBJ’s N***** comments.

    LYING, DISTORTING, STRAW MEN:

    It’s the LEFT’S finer points of strategy.

    OH and P.S. your usual cutesy prancing around trying to distract and hijack the conversation is also wearing real, real thin.

    jakee308 (f1b953)

  230. pickles

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  231. He seems to be trying for the inanity of the New Yorker’s Amy Davidson, who previously had a bout of trig denial fever, or Gail Collins, in the Times,

    narciso (3fec35)

  232. You’re right, Leviticus. That’s a fair criticism. You got me.

    elissa (2a9d77)

  233. I think some might call this particular fee, ‘the jizdah

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2014/04/26/how-now-white-cowman/

    narciso (3fec35)

  234. Defending this jerkoff for anything is stupid. He doesn’t believe in the federal government’s right to exist. He’s going to have a world of hurt descend on him, and he deserves every bit of it. This idiocy hurts the conservative brand. It makes conservatism a punchline. Please stop it.

    Too much squish-squish on your part, Carlitos.

    I’d buy where you were coming from (IOW, I wouldn’t think you were reflecting a case of the modern-day idiocy running rampant throughout society, otherwise known as compassion for compassion’s sake—aka Nidal-Hasan-ism) if you also didn’t philosophically overreach regarding Cliven Bundy’s description of the riots in LA, be it 1965 or certainly 1992, or his characterization of the effects of liberalism-gone-berserk on modern-day culture.

    While the use by Bundy of the word “Negro” is archaic and in today’s era sounds derogatory, placing it in the overall context of his citing the origins of the sloppy liberalism of the “Great Society” (ie, the 1960s, when “Negro” was the favored term), and the continuing social-economic breakdown and anomie of black America (but also the US in general) means that only phony-baloney liberals — who don’t flinch at all towards the outright bigotry of their beloved icons of the left — will make hay of it or be offended.

    In particular, not one detail of what Bundy said about the riots in Los Angeles was incorrect or inapplicable. Only point I’d want to insert into his observation is that he could have been more emphatic about the crux of the problem being decades of loony liberalism, allowing that to hang over the reality like a thick blanket of crud more than just the specifics of race or ethnicity.

    Meanwhile…

    (RealClearPolitics) CNN REPORTER: You’re protecting this man and he’s wondering whether African-Americans would be better off as slaves. How does that strike you?

    JASON BULLOCK, BODYGUARD FOR CLIVEN BUNDY: It doesn’t strike me any kind of way. This is still the same old Mr. Bundy I met from the first day of all this happening.

    CNN REPORTER: But aren’t those offensive comments to you

    BULLOCK: Not at all.

    CNN REPORTER: Not offensive?

    BULLOCK: Because Mr. Bundy is not a racist. Ever since I’ve been here he’s treated me with nothing but hospitality. He’s pretty much treated me like his own family.

    Mark (59e5be)

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  236. Again, I’d like something specific, because generalized complaints that I am “defending Bundy” or some such aren’t going to be very convincing. You’d have to show that my defense is inaccurate, or otherwise a bad argument.

    I’m here and happy to discuss it. But can you be specific?

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 4/25/2014 @ 5:56 pm

    Could you clarify specifically what the federal overreach is? You have a rancher refusing to pay grazing fees for … 20 years? You have a rancher stating that he doesn’t recognize the federal government’s right to exist. (I’m not sure if you’ve dealt with any of these “sovereign citizens” or “free men on the land,” but they are not friends of the courts or the federal government. Maybe you remember Wesley Snipes going to jail for tax evasion – he made similar arguments.

    Bundy’s in clear violation of the law. The relevant law enforcement agency is the BLM. What would you have them do? What actions could the feds take that would not be “overreach” but achieve compliance with the rulings? Especially when faced with armed militia members from Idaho? His cattle are the equivalent of vermin; the feds could just shoot them all and be done with it. Or round them up and sell them to pay outstanding fees / taxes / debt.

    To be clear, I was using a little hyperbole with “soiling your home page,” and my frustration is more with the commentariat than with you. So I apologize for that remark. Obviously it’s a story of interest, as I noted above it’s all over cable news.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  237. 69. On careful review, ‘dog whistle’ is iconic and metaphorically apropos.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  238. 245. “Bundy’s in clear violation of the law. The relevant law enforcement agency is the BLM. What would you have them do?”

    Nothing you’ve presented establishes this as fact.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  239. 247. We accept that the BLM has been given an ‘office’ of Manager over NV land adjacent to Federally seized land, nothing more.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  240. 247. The charge of ‘racist’ applied to Bundy has not, certainly not by one carlitos, been established to any extent whatever.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  241. 247. May I respectfully suggest that you read the following, linked by mg an narciso on a subsequent thread, before proceeding.

    http://americanthinker.com/2014/04/cliven_bundy_delenda_est.html

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  242. If anyone is interested, the claim that Harry Reid is using the BLM for political gain is rated “pants on fire” here.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  243. I used to read the american thinker, and now I stay clear. They don’t even bother with the dog whistles anymore; the racism is straight up and direct. They actually interviewed Jared Taylor this month.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  244. 251. Here we go.

    The government had no interest in Bundy’s property. It wanted his cattle off government land.

    And moved the Desert Tortoise onto his land as a pretext.

    Reid’s son had represented a Chinese firm that had been interested in developing a solar energy array, but the deal involved land far from the Bundy property and collapsed a year ago.

    Which does not explain his retainer.

    The Bureau of Land Management has identified a desert area for solar power development, but it is about 50 miles away from both the Bundy ranch and the federal land where he likes to graze his cattle.

    Could we actually verify this?

    The habitat protections on the land Bundy wants to use were put in place in 1994, long before there was any hint of Chinese interest.

    See rebuttal at top.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  245. 252. Clarice Feldman, you think she’s a racist too?

    You are not a serious adversary. I’m done with you. Get lost.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  246. “I used to read the american thinker, and now I stay clear. They don’t even bother with the dog whistles anymore; the racism is straight up and direct.”

    carlitos – A lot of different authors contribute to American Thinker. Are you saying they are all racist?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  247. No, I’m just saying that I’m not going to visit a site that hosts white nationalists like Jared Taylor. I don’t visit vdare anymore, either. Also, some of the libertarian opinion and anti-gay stuff there is kind of loopy.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  248. I’m starting the honey-do list now, so no comments for a while. A beautiful sunday to you all.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  249. What would you have them do?

    The ruling hierarchy should treat Bundy and his access to federal land the same way it is now treating the southern border: As something very flexible and porous, open to the sort of ad-hoc interpretation that gives wide latitude to those bureaucrats who’d rather sit at their desks all day surfing (perhaps for porn sites) the internet.

    Quite seriously, controversies like this or the ones pertaining to same-sex marriage, or global warming, or Trayvon Martin vs George Zimmerman, or New Jersey bridge closures, etc, etc, exemplify how anyone one of us can fall for the squish-squish of cheap compassion for compassion’s sake, which is exploited for all its worth by the media and its sycophants in Hollywood, academia, true-blue government agencies, etc.

    Mark (59e5be)

  250. 80.81. 82. 105.

    Part of the reason Howell/Koresh’s “prophecy”, that invoked the LA riots before they happened, was not noticed is that right after the fire, several different versions of the Waco warrant were circulating online. One of them was a “cut” version.

    I downloaded a few files.

    WARRANT TXT 56,016 05-03-93 3:43a

    (downloaded from Linda Thompson’s BBS in Indianapolis. It had the word “schwa”in it, which she evidentaly put in to protect her copyright, or to trace where it went.)

    WARRANT CUT 42,207 05-18-93 5:06p
    (cut version)

    WARRANT JP 59,392 07-30-93 1:15p

    I think this one had attachments.

    The standard one now was prepared by Scott Ostrander.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  251. at the very beginning of 1993, Friend of Bill (see Mar 9, 1993 Wall Street Journal) Jay William Buford, head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in Little Rock, Arkansas, and one of the 3 leaders of the raid (his team was misleadingly labeled “New Orleans”) set out to “improve” the Waco warrant affidavit:

    On January 1 and January 3, 1993, Mrs. Poia Vaega, of Mangere, Auckland, New Zealand, was interviewed telephonically by Resident Agent in Charge Bill Buford, BATF, Little Rock Arkansas, who also is assisting me in this investigation.

    The results of Special Agent Buford’s interview on January 1, 1993, was reduced to writing and furnished to me.

    Special Agent Buford’s interview on January 3, 1993, was tape recorded with the permission of
    Poia Vaega and has since been transcribed and typewritten.

    Both the tape recording and the transcription was furnished to me by Special Agent Buford. Both interviews with Poia Vaega revealed a false imprisonment for a term of three and a half months which began in June of 1991 and physical and sexual abuse of one of Mrs. Vaega’s sisters, Doreen Saipaia.

    This was while she was a member of the Branch Davidian at the Mt. Carmel Center, Waco, Texas. The physical and sexual abuse was done by Vernon Wayne Howell and Stanley Sylvia, a close follower of Howell, on several occasions.

    It was learned From Mrs. Vaega that she and her husband Leslie were also members of Howell’s group in Waco for a short period of time in March, 1990. Upon their arrival at Mt. Carmel Center, she and her husband were separated and
    not allowed to sleep together or have any sexual contact.

    According to Mrs. Vaega, all the girls and women at the compound were exclusively reserved for Howell. She stated that Howell would preach his philosophy, which did not always coincide with the bible, for hours at a time. She and her husband left the compound after ten days because her husband did not agree with Howell’s doctrine but that her two sisters stayed behind.

    Mrs. Vaega also related that she was present at one of the study periods held by Howell when Howell passed his personal AK-47 machine gun around for the group to handle and look over.

    Notice that the first call is not tape recorded,meaning it could have gone completely different than what he says.

    On January 1 and 3, 1993, Bill Clinton was still in Little Rock.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  252. carlitos,

    Could you clarify specifically what the federal overreach is?

    If the actions described in this comment are accurate — and again I do not consider myself an expert on the facts — that sounds like overreach to me.

    Note that I did not say in the post that federal overreach had occurred here. Again, I don’t know enough to opine. But I think possible federal overreach is the issue — and I think the race comments are a distraction from that issue.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  253. It’s funny. I’ve never met him, but Carlitos via his comments has always before seemed like kind of a practical free spirit, and a hard-to-categorize irreverent soul, and a politically open thinker. On this issue what appears to be his unquestioning belief in, trust in (and willing uncritical reliance upon) the BLM and other politicized government agencies such as the EPA to “manage” these federal lands in a righteous way and in a lawful manner just seems set. I don’t think this far down on the thread anyone’s going to convince him otherwise or convince him to look deeper even though myriad examples of government over-reach and failure to evenly enforce the law abound when it comes to land rights and land use.

    elissa (7bf732)

  254. An interesting summary of the events in Bunkerville.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  255. I don’t know if their management is righteous or not. I just don’t think that sending in an armed militia to meet the feds is a bright approach. Ditto for not paying grazing fees for 20 years.

    The militia have apparently set up checkpoints. That is not going to end well.

    LAS VEGAS — Concerns are growing about members of the militia surrounding rancher Cliven Bundy.

    Democratic Rep. Steven Horsford, sent a letter to Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie about the safety of residents in the Bunkerville area. Horsford says his constituents have “expressed concern” over the presence of armed militia groups from out of state.

    According to Horsford, his constituents say the militia have set up checkpoints where residents must prove they live in the area before they are allowed to pass and have set up a “persistent presence” along federal highways, and state and county roads. They also claim some have established an armed presence in the community.

    Horsford told the sheriff that the militia are making people feel unsafe

    .

    I’m telling you, this isn’t about states rights or grazing management. He’s a fringe kook who doesn’t recognize the US government, he thinks that revelations from God are telling him and his supporters to confiscate the government agents’ guns and drive them off of “his” land.

    carlitos (df426e)


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