Patterico's Pontifications

2/28/2014

Hey President Obama – Russia Crossed That Line/Border

Filed under: General — JD @ 7:25 pm

[guest post by JD]

While Obama was toasting his announcement that it was officially Happy Hour at the DNC meeting, Russia was engaged in a non-kinetic military action and uncontested arrival in Ukraine.

The only people he will stand up to are those that dare disagree with his domestic political agenda.

—JD

264 Responses to “Hey President Obama – Russia Crossed That Line/Border”

  1. He is just awful

    JD (4ebc00)

  2. That is way too generous, JD. The man has been an incompetent disaster.

    Colonel Haiku (eaeaae)

  3. Au contrare, he is expertly accomplishing his transformation of the US, confirming Sec. Hagel’s comment that US superiority over anything can no longer be assumed.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  4. International affairs are not the kind of things that can be left to fend for themselves until they break, and then fixed good as new by bringing in a handyman. They need constant attention and ongoing maintenance, by competent and conscientious professionals. Chicago ward heelers, ambitious political wives, and gigolos whose main talent is marrying rich heiresses are not the best people for the job.

    nk (dbc370)

  5. He was told that there were some hot Ruski’s visiting the DNC,
    and that was the kind of foreign affair he wanted to get involved in.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  6. Can’t a fella eat his olive? Bartender, pour one for the cigarette boi, on Jack Lew’s tab.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  7. My grandpappy used to have a toothless old hound.

    Colonel Haiku (eaeaae)

  8. Ya know why Jesus wasn’t born in Russia?

    Colonel Haiku (eaeaae)

  9. Now would be a very good time for the Chechen’s to wake up.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  10. 8. No, no clue.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  11. So, who learned from whom about executive edicts?

    Putin from BHO, or BHO from Putin?

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  12. 8. The trip to Bethlehem and the Egypt was to far by burro?

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  13. The only way to get Obama to go after Russia is to tell him that Putin is a Tea Partier clinging to his guns and religion.

    Craig Pirrong (40b798)

  14. So, who learned from whom about executive edicts?

    Putin from BHO, or BHO from Putin?

    Comment by Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 2/28/2014 @ 8:16 pm

    Ukase — an edict with the force of law issued by the Czar, the Patriarch, or high-ranking noble.

    nk (dbc370)

  15. We drew the line back in 1994 when we signed a Treaty to provide Ukraine protection from invasion in exchange for them giving up their nukes.

    kaf (81bcc7)

  16. 12, no it was because they could not find three wise men and one virgin.

    Colonel Haiku (eaeaae)

  17. That’s Poland, Haiku.

    nk (dbc370)

  18. kaf @ 15,

    That’s an interesting read. Makes one wonder if the President is aware of it…

    Dana (9a8f57)

  19. A Communist died and since he was an honest man albeit atheist, he was sentenced to rotate spending one year in Hell and one year in Heaven. One year passed and Satan said to God : “Take this man as fast as possible, because he turned all my young demons into Young Pioneers, I have to restore some order.” Another year passed, Satan meets God again and tells him : “Lord God, it’s my turn now.” God replied : “First of all, don’t call me Lord God, but instead Comrade God; second, there is no God; and one more thing – don’t distract me or I’ll be late to the Party meeting.”

    nk (dbc370)

  20. I wish we could do something about the plague of slutty flight attendants on our destitute banana republic.

    http://patterico.com/2014/02/28/hey-president-obama-russia-crossed-that-lineborder/comment-page-1/#comment-1466335

    That and the prickly heat.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  21. Clinton (and Yeltsin) sold Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons as a great coup. Kuchma was painted a hard-line, Soviet-style, Stalinist Communist, and Ukraine a potential rogue nation that could start WWIII. They might not have been wrong. In many respects, Yanukovych vs. Tymoshenko resembles Al Capone vs. Bugs Moran.

    nk (dbc370)

  22. 21. And it is certainly true that Russia is in big financial trouble. It does have large foreign currencies banked, so it can survive the EM currency wars but the crash in natural gas prices is crippling.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  23. 17… Some think that, nk, but they are wrong.

    Colonel Haiku (eaeaae)

  24. R.I.P. Paco de Lucia, tremendous Spanish guitarist

    Icy (f8442d)

  25. Hey, since in Corado and all, so what the ssihit sndie youk nwo what it Obama! aeiah culk aevery all. Baddie dad an wholly wahat the ukarany shti. Hey ehey pres so wha dam rthe. mitchele on the radi o aso ssh snizlle god oo godd good. Fele me danm rite.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  26. It’d be a shame if any of them gain the upper hand.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/28/governmentbuilt_malware_running_out_of_control_fsecure_tells_trustycon/?

    Mutually assured destruction, we can only hope.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  27. Long but the sort of thing narciso laps up. Have at it:

    http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Vladimir-Putin-The-World-s-Greatest-Fool

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  28. This is a quite good article written by an American who has lived in Ukraine. It added some pieces to the puzzle and I learned some stuff.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/seven-wonders-ukraine-s-revolution_783636.html?page=1

    elissa (06f6f8)

  29. Obama drew a line, a hard line…

    In the water.

    John Moore (3f1a01)

  30. “After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama’s reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia’s Putin to invade Ukraine next.” — Sarah Palin, 2008

    Icy (f8442d)

  31. someone take away AG80′s keyboard until he s*bers up…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  32. 32. It’s some sort of pig latin but I’m hopeless as cryptographer.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  33. Hey President Obama – Russia Crossed That Line/Border

    What difference, at this point, does it make? just hit the “reset” button and we’re all friends again… right? 8-)

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  34. too bad all those MANPADS Ambassador Stevens was murdered over wound up with AlQ…

    the Ukrainians could sure use a few thousand of them right about now… and a boat load of RPGs too.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  35. The only thing worse than obama-
    The ignorants that voted for him.
    once or twice.

    mg (31009b)

  36. Write Obama’s words in sand and running water.

    (My apologies to the poet.)

    ropelight (6b92cb)

  37. The Charge Of The Lightweight Brigade

    Someone had duffed on the ninth tee.
    Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to order Wagyu and Beluga for the White House table.
    Obamacare to the left of them, Obamaphones to the right of them, for food stamps lined up the 47%.

    Seriously, will this affect the price of Beluga caviar? Some of it comes from the Black Sea. Will we have to serve Hollande Iranian caviar the next time he comes over? The shame of it.

    TIL, Beluga sturgeon weigh up to 2,000 lbs.

    nk (dbc370)

  38. What is worse is that Clinton convinced the Ukrainians that the US would stand besides them if Russia invaded, if they got rid of their nuclear weapons. Now those weapons are gone, and another lying democrat has to use Orwellian language to avoid treaty commitments. By no means do I think we should fight a war with the Russians over Ukraine. But Clinton and his demon-crat minions disarmed those people. The least we can do is say what happened, and not try to push a line that is a lie.

    The lesson is the same as always. Stay strong, don’t disarm.

    Nick (af207e)

  39. we’ll stand beside them
    and guide their short journey down
    Road to Perdition

    Colonel Haiku (3add38)

  40. Devastating link from elissa’s link above,

    The fifth wonder is how inept the response from Washington was in this crisis. When the first attacks on the barricades on Kiev occurred in early December the Obama White House was busy making plans to attend former South African President Nelson Mandela’s funeral. The job of dealing with Yanukovych was outsourced to Joe Biden, which telegraphed that the situation in Ukraine was a secondary priority at best. Ukrainian friends and colleagues were beyond furious at the “above the fray” aloofness of Obama. “Ronald Reagan would have known how to deal with Yanukovych,” said one close friend, “he would have had him by the balls and screaming for mercy. What do we get out of this White House—one milquetoast declaration after another that the Administration ‘is against violence—kumbaya.’ But not a word about what they are prepared to do to stand up for these people dying on the barricades.”

    Sounds familiar,

    In September 2012, the New York Times wrote an article looking back at how Obama handled the Arab Spring: “…as large street protests broke out in Iran after disputed presidential elections, Mr. Obama followed a low-key script, criticizing violence but saying he did not want to be seen as meddling in Iranian domestic politics. Months later, administration officials said, Mr. Obama expressed regret about his muted stance on Iran. ‘There was a feeling of “we ain’t gonna be behind the curve on this again,” ‘ one senior administration official said, who spoke to the New York Times on condition of anonymity.”

    Dana (9a8f57)

  41. Years ago, I wondered whether Ukraine ought to be invited into NATO and whether Germans, and French and Englishmen would would be willing to wage war in defense of Ukraine.

    I expect I am about to get my answer…

    WarEagle82 (b18ccf)

  42. Keeping the faith in regards to a treaty insuring national defense?
    So 1970′s what-was-once-SouthVietnam been there done that
    Repeated by Iraq 1990′s been there done that…
    yet once again 2012 or so Iraq been there done that…

    I don’t know whether or not to have hoped that Ukraine kept a few nukes in somebody’s basement.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  43. I never thought the Ukraine should get rid of all their nukes. I’m sure many of them think that today too.

    Trusting the United States? In a Treaty? Madness.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  44. “As an observer, this is like watching Russia beat up its old girlfriend, and one wonders, why didn’t she just get away years ago?”

    Colonel Haiku (3add38)

  45. Vladimir Putin
    a “Jeffersonian Dem”?
    is good, comrade, no?

    Colonel Haiku (3add38)

  46. Can we invite Putin to become President of the United States? After all, if we are going to have a Communist with no allegiance to the United States for President, shouldn’t we have a strong one?

    nk (dbc370)

  47. I would like to know from commentators here, what do you think the United States’ role should be in this if it escalates and Putin pushes forward with his military might (not withstanding any treaty obligations – if indeed there is an actual treaty that was submitted to Congress (which I see Ace is questioning)?

    Dana (9a8f57)

  48. ship the Ukrainians a metric buttload of MANPADS, RPGs and other ATGMs.

    the problem will solve itself.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  49. Economic sanctions, worldwide. “If you do business with Russia or its captive Republics, you don’t do business with America.” It’s about all we can do. War is out of the question. “Diplomacy” is to laugh. But then, where will Tyson Foods sell its pig intestines? It was American agribusiness who turned against Carter when he imposed a wheat embargo on the USSR when it invaded Afghanistan. And because it was so limited, it did not preclude other nations from doing business with the USSR so it bought grain elsewhere, it was meaningless.

    nk (dbc370)

  50. We should offer a bare-chested Putin the opportunity of riding Obama bareback. Then we should all sit down and write snearingly nasty letters to the UN Security Council, demanding a resolution that condemns the Russian actions in the Ukraine

    Colonel Haiku (3add38)

  51. And what do we do when Russia sinks the ship carrying them, red? You don’t think Russia is capable of imposing an effective blockade on weaponry to Ukraine?

    nk (dbc370)

  52. Mangina Kerry
    This is your Moment In Teh Sun
    man up Mangina!

    Colonel Haiku (3add38)

  53. We should offer a bare-chested Putin the opportunity of riding Obama bareback.

    Colonel, please don’t get Obama too excited with such imagery.

    Actually, to his credit, he may be a wee bit more pissed off at Putin than he’d otherwise be — and therefore won’t be quite such a pushover when it comes to Russia — because of Putin’s anti-GLBT sentiments. For Obama, those are fighting words, a strike way too close to home, a personal insult.

    Mark (c04b2c)

  54. Not the best time to have a security agreement with the USA.

    Colonel Haiku (3add38)

  55. why would we ship using SLOC through several narrow choke points when the Ukraine has such large land borders to the west & north?

    just because Obumbles is a moron doesn’t mean everyone is.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  56. BTW: wanna know how we’ll know Ear Leader is taking this problem seriously?

    https://twitter.com/exjon/status/439591553502162944

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  57. as large street protests broke out in Iran after disputed presidential elections, Mr. Obama followed a low-key script,

    The lunacy of Obama — both ideologically and tactically — was best summed up to me when in his State of the Union address several weeks ago he loudly, proudly told Congress (and the world watching at home) that he’d veto any attempt by them to impose new sanctions on Iran.

    Mark (c04b2c)

  58. meanwhile, Contains Nothing Newsworthy stands up for President Mom Jeans…. “don’t you dare pick on our Barry, you meanie!”

    http://twitter.com/#!/NolteNC/status/439795661777932288

    this is so far past parody as to be surreal.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  59. that’s okay: i’m still waiting for Mittens to apologize to half the country for not even pretending to try and win the election.

    this whole mess is as much his fault as Oblunder’s.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  60. Honestly, red, I think it’s a game they are playing;

    http://www.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2014/02/28/red-lines-in-crimea/

    narciso (3fec35)

  61. Good link Narciso. I’d say Walter Russell Mead has a pretty good (and sobering) handle on the situation with Putin and Obama.

    elissa (a65f5a)

  62. The headlines at Drudge are not reassuring either.

    elissa (a65f5a)

  63. Comment by Nick (af207e) — 3/1/2014 @ 7:22 am

    BillyJeff will say anything to get in your pants.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  64. Then there was this, this week from Reuters. Connection or coincidence? 360 million newly stolen credentials on black market: cybersecurity firm

    Alex Holden, chief information security officer of Hold Security LLC, said in an interview that his firm obtained the data over the past three weeks, meaning an unprecedented amount of stolen credentials is available for sale underground.
    “The sheer volume is overwhelming,” said Holden, whose firm last year helped uncover a major data breach at Adobe Systems Inc in which tens of millions of records were stolen.
    Holden said he believes the 360 million records were obtained in separate attacks, including one that yielded some 105 million records, which would make it the largest single credential breaches known to date.
    He said he believes the credentials were stolen in breaches that have yet to be publicly reported. The companies attacked may remain unaware until they are notified by third parties who find evidence of the hacking, he said.

    elissa (a65f5a)

  65. Comment by Colonel Haiku (3add38) — 3/1/2014 @ 8:56 am

    See PowerLine: The Week In Pictures.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  66. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 3/1/2014 @ 8:57 am

    Can they blockade the air and land routes from Poland?
    Starting to sound like Berlin, circa 1948.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  67. Comment by elissa (a65f5a) — 3/1/2014 @ 11:04 am

    Put those credit/debit cards away, and pay with cash (or checks if cash is inconvenient).
    Hard to steal your identity when your “photo ID” is Andrew Jackson.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  68. Fortune favors the brave.
    He who dares wins.
    God hates a coward.

    Putin’s doing something and he might get something. Obama will do nothing and get nothing.

    The comparison to Napoleon is stupid, BTW. Putin is not going to invade Russia with infantry on foot in winter.

    nk (dbc370)

  69. Putin is not going to invade Russia?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  70. We don’t have to invade Russia, the Chinese will do it for us adding another lost piece to the Middle Kingdom.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  71. askeptic, that’s good advice, but unfortunately, there is no assurance that banks, brokerages, credit unions and other non credit card financial entities aren’t also at risk from these increasingly sophisticated international hackers and thieves.

    elissa (a65f5a)

  72. Yes, askeptic, that’s what I said. Unlike Napoleon, Putin (sic) is not going to invade Russia (sic) with foot infantry marching on foot in winter.

    (Russell Mead compared Putin to Napoleon.)

    nk (dbc370)

  73. Since Putin considers the Crimea as part of Mother Russia, I will concede that he won’t send an invasion on-foot….he used choppers.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  74. Oh, and WRM voted for Obama – twice!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  75. Obama and Joe are HANDLING it!

    http://bennyhillifier.com/?id=Z7Z4rGQi2cQ

    SarahW (267b14)

  76. Russia wants to redistribute Ukraine’s wealth.
    And Ukraine, too.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  77. Well yes, but compared to most analysts, he’s relatively sharp,

    narciso (3fec35)

  78. it just keeps getting better: our #SCOAMF skipped the intel meeting on the Ukraine today, because “priorities”, apparently.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-skips-national-security-team-meeting-russia-ukraine_783659.html#.UxJQCUiKLIM.email

    we are in the VERY best of hands…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  79. Valerie gave him a Hall Pass.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  80. part of the brilliant brainstorming we’re missing captured here:

    http://hopenchangecartoons.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/saturday-special-edition.html

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  81. Very Good, red; you may have a cookie.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  82. i want carnitas tacos!

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  83. i almost feel sorry for Vlad…

    i mean really: can you imagine the aggravation of having to talk with JEFH for 90 minutes?

    you’d need hearing protection so that the whining didn’t destroy your hearing.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-01/obama-and-putin-held-phone-conversation

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  84. Hey, Putin, nice little island your friend Castro has over here. Wouldn’t want something bad to happen to it, would’ya?

    Kevin M (dbcba4)

  85. Biden will shortly call for Ukraine to be split into three countries, two of which are Russia.

    Kevin M (dbcba4)

  86. write snarling letter
    show him how cow eats cabbage
    c’mon Obambi

    Colonel Haiku (fce587)

  87. Part of the problem is that “the free world” really does not have a leader.

    elissa (a65f5a)

  88. Ultimately, the US isn’t going to start a shooting war over the Crimea. I’m not even convinced having the ethnically-Russian Crimea returned to Russia is really a bad thing for anyone. But it’s devastating to have America look — quite accurately — like it won’t do a damn thing to defend European nations to which it has given commitments.

    At a minimum, the US should send the two frigates into the black sea they’re entitled to; hold a prominent strategic exercise, but also downplay it; and kick Russia out of the WTO.

    This will, on the heels of Sochi with the awful anti-gay and government quasi-militia thuggery news coverage leading up to it, combined with the invasion of campaign, turn Putin from his desired “International Man About Town” schtick, to widely perceived pariah.

    How much that will hurt him in Russia is debatable, but it should sap a lot of the external support he’s gotten on the basis of his perceived strong, charismatic personality. Many of us here have even been guilty of that, from time to time, yours truly not excepted.

    But it’s time for that crap to end, and a clear moral line to be drawn.

    But, Obama. So yeah.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  89. Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 3/1/2014 @ 2:45 pm

    Reagan — Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

    Obama — Vovochka, rip off my panties!
    (I wonder what their safe word is.)

    nk (dbc370)

  90. *invasion of the Ukraine

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  91. No it won’t,

    narciso (3fec35)

  92. A lot of Putin’s appeal is his image of strength. Suddenly pointing out that there is another, bigger dog will sap that portion of his appeal with many.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  93. If trade sanctions against Russia could be imposed, and enforced, what would Vlad do with all that oil and gas he needs to sell to keep his corruptocracy afloat?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  94. what bigger dog?

    Obumbles isn’t even a dog, but more of an attack gerbil.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  95. Yes, I do acknowledge that is the flaw in my plan.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  96. what would a gerbil attack?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  97. what would a gerbil attack?

    Drone strikes against wedding parties. Then brag about it.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  98. Been there, done that….
    We call it a Pre-Coital Abortion.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  99. Well take this example;

    http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2014/02/american_jihadist_in_pakistan.php

    they know next to nothing about the target, which really inspires confidence, sarc,

    narciso (3fec35)

  100. Re: #91…”ca-cao”, nk… “ca-cao”.

    Colonel Haiku (fce587)

  101. People who keep writing comments about not going to war “over Crimea” don’t seem to have a single clue.

    Putin can’t just take over Crimea and stop. Russia’s entire natural gas export business goes through pipelines in the Ukraine. He can’t allow those pipelines to be controlled by a hostile UKR government. They can be shut down by Ukraine whenever UKR wishes to pressure him economically. They already went through a series of bluff and counterbluff on this topic a few years ago. Putin will be moving on Kiev in a matter of days.

    SPQR (768505)

  102. I hope you’re wrong, SPQR, especially with there being someone I care about (not a personal relationship, a philosopher I’ve corresponded with a tiny bit, including today) in Kiev.

    But certainly Russia has the capabilities, and if they’re going to do it, it’ll be sooner and later. And Obama is doing sh*t all to dissuade.

    Looking at it the other way, though:

    “They can be shut down by Ukraine whenever UKR wishes to pressure him economically.”

    I think those are always going to be just bluffs. The Ukraine wouldn’t dare.

    At any rate, I hope partition of the ethnically-Russian lands is the worst of it. Fingers crossed, and thanks for your well-considered, if chilling, comment.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  103. *sooner than later

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  104. FC – The Ukraine would not dare? Seriously? How can you write something so silly when Russia already has thousands of troops in Ukraine? When Kharkov and other cities, that are not in the Crimea you foolishly think is the extent of Russian ambition, are raising Russian flag today? And beating up Maiden protestors in the public squares?

    The Ukrainians know that they are facing an existential threat to their independence, and they know that they have no other strategic threat to Russia other than those gas pipelines since the US helped talk them out of keeping the nuclear weapons two decades ago.

    SPQR (768505)

  105. narciso, rare for New Republic to print something so rational and rooted in reality.

    SPQR (768505)

  106. SPQR, let me clarify.

    With their back to the wall now, Russian troops in the country, they may well dare cut off Russian energy as part of a war plan.

    But if the two nations were at putative peace, they wouldn’t cut off Russia’s energy, forcing them to invade. That’s my thesis, anyway.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  107. FC – then it should be obvious to you that Putin has to control all of UKR – not merely Crimea.

    SPQR (768505)

  108. I think we can expect several “terrorist events” to happen in Ukraine that will give Putin an excuse to intervene and protect the Ukrainian people. It will be a coincidence, I’m sure, if the targeted Ukrainians are also protesters.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  109. Once someone like Putin starts this kind of move, he can’t back down in the face of minor noise like Obama’s. He’d be deposed himself. He’ll have to keep doubling down.

    This is why having a flaming moron like Obama is so dangerous.

    SPQR (768505)

  110. Not really, SPQR.

    Putin could decide not to take the entire country, but claim the moral high ground by claiming to be there to protect ethnic Russian interests, like Hitler did at Danzig. The allies refused this, not without reason, and war ensued.

    But if Putin wants to have a win with his own people and come out looking OKish, that’s what he would do. He would force the Ukrainians to accept that state of affairs, with the implication being, “We’ll buy the gas, but better not shut it off.” Because if the Ukraine did so, that would provide even less cover for European and American politicians to justify military assistance for the Ukraine.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  111. 87. Comment by Kevin M (dbcba4) — 3/1/2014 @ 3:59 pm

    Biden will shortly call for Ukraine to be split into three countries, two of which are Russia.

    You know he really might in a few days, and I can even show you the borders.

    Maps of Ukraine:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/27/world/europe/ukraine-divisions-crimea.html

    One shows the Russian and Ukrainian speaking areas (and the degrees they speak it) along with areas won by Yanokovych and the opposition in the 2010 presidential election, with a border drawn between them, and a separation shown by by color between the grey and the blue (nearly 100% Russian speaking) areas.

    The other one shows where the gas pipelines are.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  112. And Hitler only took part of Czechoslovakia in 1938, the part containing the Germans he was so concerned about – the first week.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  113. If Obama at least were a principled isolationist instead of a dumb do-gooder leftwinger, I’d have more confidence in his ability to deal with the international scene, including a Russia, Syria or Iran.

    The likelihood that he feels more angst about Russia’s recent bout to discourage the GLBT agenda, while looking the other way when it comes to the far more draconian social-political attitudes and policies emanating from the Islamic world, including the renegades he (and other EU leaders) want to side with in Syria, or his sympathies for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, illustrates the idiocy of modern-day liberals like Obama.

    Mark (71f7cb)

  114. nk @22 and 70/74

    In many respects, Yanukovych vs. Tymoshenko resembles Al Capone vs. Bugs Moran.

    You gotta side with Bugs Moran, no question about it. But anyway Yulia Tymoshenko may not really come back.

    The comparison to Napoleon is stupid, BTW…(Russell Mead compared Putin to Napoleon.)

    The comparison was to Napoleon in 1814, not 1812. (And not 1815 either)

    200 years ago,
    Which means 1814, not 1812, which was 202 years ago. Just in case this might be an approximation and he doesn’t mean precisely 200 years ago (2014 – 200 years = 814) he continues:
    Napoleon was fighting one of his most brilliant campaigns against the allied armies invading Paris.

    When were the allied armies invading Paris? I think 1814.

    Napoleon was defeated and exiled to Elba.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  115. Christoph, your kind of wishful thinking is what led Obama’s twerps to tell us on Thursday that Russia wasn’t going to invade at all.

    SPQR (768505)

  116. It might be a temporary occupation then, until Gazprom completes the Black Sea pipeline. The other corollary is that it does not place Ukraine in a good position with the rest of Europe, which would not want Ukraine’s feuding with Russia to endanger its fuel deliveries. Poor Cossacks.

    nk (dbc370)

  117. But to be honest, I had not even considered the modern reality of of energy needs — just Russia’s historic paranoia to have buffers against invasion.

    nk (dbc370)

  118. 48. Comment by Dana (9a8f57) — 3/1/2014 @ 8:42 am

    I would like to know from commentators here, what do you think the United States’ role should be in this if it escalates and Putin pushes forward with his military might

    Difficult to say, but if there is some worry Putin might try to take over moree of the Ulraine, maybe NATO troops shold be moved into to occupy all areas not already occupied by Putin, particularly securing airports, and communication links, and priority for the western Ukraine.

    They don’t have to be American – they can be mainly Polish and French (foreign legion.) But American help and encouragement may be necesary to get NATO to authorize this.

    50. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 3/1/2014 @ 8:53 am

    Economic sanctions, worldwide. “If you do business with Russia or its captive Republics, you don’t do business with America.” It’s about all we can do.

    Putin is probably really afraid of being cut off economically. Of course, he would shut off the gas to Europe, and it would take some time for it to be replaced. But winter’s almost over.

    Mikhail Saakashvili told the Wall Street Journal:

    The last time I was in Miami, it was full of rich Russians. If you tell them you can no longer come here and you have to freeze in Moscow, then they will turn on Putin…[Western governments have] much more leverage than they realize. They just need to apply it.

    He says it would be the same thing that happened in Ukraine. But in Ukraine, the oligarchs were still independent and afraid of coming under the rule of Putin – in Russia they already are tamed.

    Still, that’s the sort of thing Putin really does not like. Some people have already been excluded, and he retaliated by stopping adoptions of Russian babies.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  119. SPQR-

    Thanks for the edumacation. It did occur to me some where in the dim recesses of my memory that there was something about Russia, The Ukraine, and gas pipelines that went together, and that Russia taking a bite out of Russian dominated Crimea was not going to be the end of it.
    It my foreign affairs naivete’, I said years ago that the US needed to send some F-22′s to sterilize the skies of Georgia.

    Perhaps the President was at the same place this morning as he was the night of Benghazi, where ever that was; if he doesn’t hear about it until it is one the news he can’t have any responsibility for it, now can he…sort of.

    I haven’t read Mark Steyn’s After America, but I guess this is it.

    Does the Ukraine have anything resembling an army to put up a fight?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  120. Now other accounts say it’s their private contracting branch;

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-28/officers-76th-russian-shock-troops-division-operating-ukraine

    narciso (3fec35)

  121. It is an uneven contest, but by no means not a predetermined result;

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-military-russia-crimea

    narciso (3fec35)

  122. At this point, what are the choices for US involvement? The US’s role was to maintain a strong military with a CIC that was known to defend freedom to prevent the terrible from happening.

    I’m not sure I would trust Obama getting involved at all even if he wanted to.
    NATO? You mean the folk who wouldn’t shoot at terrorists in Afghanistan, you mean the folk of which Britain was strongest before they did the fast track on letting their military fall apart?

    The Ukraine’s best bet is to make a deal with China, or ask help from Israel.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  123. Britain.
    Someone made the point recently that the fleet that Maggie sent to the Falklands was larger than the entire Royal Navy today.
    Perhaps they could send the Coldstream Guards?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  124. Christoph, your kind of wishful thinking is what led Obama’s twerps to tell us on Thursday that Russia wasn’t going to invade at all.

    The ironic thing is I am far less into wishful thinking on foreign affairs than most people, so I am considering your ideas very carefully.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  125. Everyone except China, Russia, Iran, and Israel have depended on the US to be the good guy in town (even while resenting it) for the last many decades. Tony Blair was the last person in Britain who thought that having a military was important.

    Thanks narciso for the info. I guess there is some deterrent.

    The Ukraine would be best off looking to hire mercenaries, if they had the funds.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  126. Going off the topic of my head, I think the British could field a division if they had to, two if they mobilised reserves. Not a good situation to face Russia with!

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  127. I personally don’t think the US should get involved in the tussle between Russia and Ukraine and have a hard time getting worked up about the situation there. The political dynamics in that part of the world are murky, and not much more clearly defined between good and bad than what’s true of the situation in Syria.

    The only countries in the world today that I have concern for would be Israel — vis-a-vis Iran, of course — South Korea — vis-a-vis North Korea, of course — and Japan and Phillipines, vis-a-vis the saber rattling of the PRC.

    Whether of the left, center or right, I’d think more Americans today than before are weary of intervening in foreign “adventures” unless it’s absolutely, totally, indisputably essential.

    Mark (71f7cb)

  128. Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/1/2014 @ 5:59 pm

    Perhaps the President was at the same place this morning as he was the night of Benghazi,

    Yes.

    where ever that was;

    Preparing for a speech to be delivered at a fundraiser, I think, and getting briefed by one or two people.

    Does the Ukraine have anything resembling an army to put up a fight?

    It does, and Russia doesn’t have much an army, too but it would be better to send in Polish and French and other NATO troops – then there won’t be any fight.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  129. Well Ukraine was part of the coalition in Iraq, i’m sure certain arrangements could be made among like minded persons,

    narciso (3fec35)

  130. They don’t have to be American – they can be mainly Polish and French (foreign legion.) But American help and encouragement may be necesary to get NATO to authorize this.

    Oh yeah, I’m sure the Polish and French will be totally eager to trust the military resolve of America — led by Barack Obama — along the Russia border.

    I don’t mean to be overly critical. Your plan suffers from the same weakness my plan does: Obama.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  131. 126. Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/1/2014 @ 6:05 pm

    The Ukraine’s best bet is to make a deal with China,

    ?? No, that’s not a good idea. And what woud China do?

    or ask help from Israel.

    Maybe some help in preventing acts of terrorism, in exchange for more involvement in protecting Jewish sites, plus shipments of natural gas when they are ready.

    The U.S. can also export gas. We are on the road to achieveing energy indepedence, thanks to shale oil, and natural gas fracking, and Obama will take credit for it when it happens, or gets close.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1112/US-predicted-to-be-world-s-largest-oil-producer-by-2017

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/100450133

    And gas can be diverted from other places on the international market. of course if Russia stops or diminishes the gas, he loses too.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  132. the famous Crimean war, claimed 220,000 lives, curiously only 80,000 combat deaths, the largest share was disease, 100,000,

    narciso (3fec35)

  133. Actually, come to think of it, Poland might be one country with the ability and the desire to do something. They know what the Soviets will do if allowed and want no part of it.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  134. the famous Crimean war, claimed 220,000 lives, curiously only 80,000 combat deaths, the largest share was disease, 100,000,

    That’s kind of normal (for war, which is awful), isn’t it?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  135. The Ukraine’s best bet is to make a deal with China,
    ?? No, that’s not a good idea. And what would China do?

    It wasn’t so much a serious idea as pointing out the paucity of options in a world where the US is no longer a player.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  136. Actually, come to think of it, Poland might be one country with the ability and the desire to do something. They know what the Soviets will do if allowed and want no part of it.

    Could be, MD, but they’d better get some major god-damn assurances. Poles and Ukrainians are people whom I respect a lot, and I don’t want to see them hung out to dry as were the Kurds (another great, modern people) and so many others.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  137. I personally don’t think the US should get involved in the tussle between Russia and Ukraine and have a hard time getting worked up about the situation there.

    You might have noticed that the Ukraine is attached to the rest of Europe, and America has given assurances to them also. While I don’t think America should “go it alone”, giving assurances to the Ukraine in return for them doing something huge, disarming their protective nuclear forces, and then letting them be conquered and pillaged (their gas) by the Russians, is not a real prestige and confidence booster for America to the other European nations, including staunch allies like the aforementioned Poland.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  138. Comment by Mark (71f7cb) — 3/1/2014 @ 6:26 pm

    If we didn’t want to get involved, we should have never signed the Bucharest Agreement.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  139. Sikorski did warn the opposition, what would happen, historically Poland has gotten the worst part of the deal, since the days of Catherine the Great,

    narciso (3fec35)

  140. And what woud(sic) China do?

    Isolate Vladivostok.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  141. That’s kind of normal (for war, which is awful), isn’t it?

    It was before the advent of antibiotics.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  142. “Catherine waren’t so Great”

    - Mister Ed

    Colonel Haiku (fce587)

  143. Senator Marco Rubios’s grab bag of proposals:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/rubio-proposes-steps-us-should-take-with-russia.html?
    (and Politico)

    1) Obama should acknowledge the reset is dead, call this a military invasion, and end or suspend all negotiations and discussions wih Russia on other matters like trade.

    2) Send Kerry and Hagel to Kiev.

    3) Send delegations to other countries in Central and Eastern Europe.

    4) Convene an emergency meeting of NATO.

    5) Force Russia to veto a United Nations Security Council resolution, so their hypocrisy can be highlighted.

    6) Expel Russia from the Group of 8 industrialized nations, and not take part in June 8 G-8 summit in Sochi.

    7) Renew push for NATO membership by the Republic of Georgia, and provide Georgia with soem of the weapons they have been requesting since 2008.

    8) Add more Russians to the Magnitsky list, especially government officials or allies whose wealth stems from allegiance to Putin.

    And also: Majority Leader Harry Reid should allow a Senate vote next week on the nomination of Rose Gottemoeller to be under secretary of state for arms control and international security, so she can be voted down.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  144. 137. Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/1/2014 @ 6:37 pm

    They know what the Soviets will do if allowed and want no part of it.

    People keep finding themselves saying “Soviet” when they mean Russia (because they always used it when they neant Russia.)

    The Soviet Union dissolved on December 25, 1991, by all its parts seceding from it. Gorbachev was then president of nothing.

    It’s now maybe the C.I.S.

    I suspect also people will be referring to “Saudi” Arabia after the ibn-Saud family is out of power.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  145. that is an apocryphal tale, Colonel, interestingly Sebastopol, was named after her, ‘August Empress;

    there are some valid propositions there, could we assure Putin would keep them, the Magnitsky list looks promising,

    narciso (3fec35)

  146. Reports of Russian troops on northen Ukrainian border at closest point for a move to Kiev. No where near Russian ethnic region.

    SPQR (768505)

  147. Saudi Arabia only constitutes a part of Arabia, that not taken by Yemen, Oman, the Gulf Emirates, Kuwait, and the southern portions of Iraq and Jordan. I’m sure they’ll consider changing the name once they run out of Princes in line for the thrown.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  148. That’s kind of normal (for war, which is awful), isn’t it?

    It was before the advent of antibiotics.

    more inportantly, it was before water sanitation, commercial food supply and insecticides, and proper waste handling, not to mention bathing and laundry services being a military “thing”…

    IIRC, Big Mistake #2 was the first US war where we lost more people in combat & training accidents than we did to disease.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  149. A report on the UN meeting is available at PowerLine.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  150. meanwhile, the UN bravely held a meeting

    Isn’t that more than America did? Obama skipped his Ukraine security briefing.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  151. when Soviets like Putin stop acting like the USSR, then people may stop using the term interchangeably with the word “russian”

    until then, it’s pretty much protected under “truth in advertising” laws.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  152. New York Times articles:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukraine.html?hp&_r=0

    Russian troops stripped of identifying insignia but using military vehicles bearing the license plates of Russia’s Black Sea force swarmed the major thoroughfares of Crimea, encircled government buildings, closed the main airport and seized communication hubs, solidifying what began on Friday as a covert effort to control the largely pro-Russian region…

    Mr. Obama accused Russia on Saturday of a “breach of international law” and condemned the country’s military intervention, calling it a “clear violation” of Ukrainian sovereignty.

    In Crimea, scores of heavily armed soldiers fanned out across the center of the regional capital, Simferopol. They wore green camouflage uniforms with no identifying marks, but spoke Russian and were clearly part of a Russian mobilization. In Balaklava, a district of Sevastopol, a long column of military vehicles blocking the road to a border post bore Russian plates.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukraine-finds-its-forces-are-ill-equipped-to-take-crimea-back-from-russia.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/russia-to-pay-not-so-simple.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/tensions-rise-in-crimean-capital-as-armed-men-continue-to-take-up-posts.html

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  153. You can take the boy out of the KGB,
    but you can’t take the KGB out of the boy.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  154. President McStompyfootMomJeans to send stern letter.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  155. Reports of Russian troops on northen Ukrainian border at closest point for a move to Kiev. No where near Russian ethnic region.

    They’d want to threaten it even if they weren’t going to do it to put pressure on the Ukraine, but I lean toward they intend to do it before the west can rally up a response.

    Which it probably wasn’t going to do anyway.

    Now the Ukrainian military may be a formidable force, but a major part of it has to be ethnically Russian, until recently, it was supporting the other side, and the Russians are moving with a unified purpose the Ukrainians may find hard to match.

    Damn.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  156. 159- I forgot to add:

    Pathetic!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  157. Putin, is not Soviet, he’s Greater Russia, part of the Oprichniki class, that in various forms was the the Third Section, the Okrana, and the Cheka.

    narciso (3fec35)

  158. I loved Eisenstein’s version, especially the walleyed hunchback (hey, that’s how I remember him) with the executioner’s sword and blood up to his elbows being scolded (only scolded) by Ivan for having just beheaded some of Ivan’s relatives in the palace courtyard.

    nk (dbc370)

  159. At the end of the day, I still think a de facto (which has already happened) and eventually de jure partition of the Ukraine is likely.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukraine-finds-its-forces-are-ill-equipped-to-take-crimea-back-from-russia.html

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  160. Bottom image.

    nk (dbc370)

  161. Preezy is taking my advice, askeptic? A scalding, snarling, take no prisoners letter?

    Colonel Haiku (fce587)

  162. Putin, is not Soviet, he’s Greater Russia, part of the Oprichniki class, that in various forms was the the Third Section, the Okrana, and the Cheka.

    as if changing the name of a scumbag suddenly makes them something other than a scumbag.

    i went into the Infantry in 1982: Vlad’s a fing Soviet target, and that’s all he’ll ever be in my book.

    it’s just too bad i’ll never get a TOW shot at a T-90 with his a55 on board… 8-)

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  163. retaking the Crimea would be hard for the Ukrainians, but they don’t need to do that to win: all their forces have to do is bleed the Soviet Army white if they attack the non-Russian part of the country.

    that is certainly more doable than a major offensive against an entrenched enemy.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  164. If America doesn’t honor its treaty commitment in the Ukraine, imagine what the Chinese will do to Taiwan.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  165. retaking the Crimea would be hard for the Ukrainians, but they don’t need to do that to win: all their forces have to do is bleed the Soviet Army white if they attack the non-Russian part of the country.

    Yeah.

    Pessimistically, though, Russia has a real advantage in air power, not least of which is more airfields, less easily taken out, to launch strikes from.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  166. 172: for the Soviet air power to be effective, they would have to fly inside the MANPADS envelope, and their A/C are for guavno when it comes to CAS anyway…

    keep them up where ordnance is sent “to whom it may concern” rather than on target, and there’s much less advantage and a lot more downside.

    after all, it wasn’t until the vlasti’s boys started coming home in a box, or not at all, from the ‘stan, because of MANPADS that public opinion really turned against their adventure there.

    it’s one thing to kill 100s or 1000s of the narod, but when it starts being the young princes of the regime, pressure tends to build.

    too bad Shrillery and Ear Leader let AlQ have all those missiles in Libya, eh? they’d sure be handy now…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  167. and now, for a palate cleanser, have some tasty, tasty, leftard butthurt over the truth.

    http://twitchy.com/2014/03/01/lefties-go-full-meltdown-over-time-journos-side-by-side-image-of-obama-and-putin-pic/

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  168. Funny stuff, red!

    Colonel Haiku (fce587)

  169. If we didn’t want to get involved, we should have never signed the Bucharest Agreement.

    You’re joking, right?

    Quite seriously, Russia vs Ukraine is too obscure and esoteric — and very ambiguous — to really give a flying flip about. That’s why we’d be damn lucky if that part of the globe represents the most fractious hot spot in international affairs over the next few years.

    Mark (71f7cb)

  170. and now, for a palate cleanser

    Part of the thread under that blog entry has a photo that’s hilarious. But the responses to that posted photo are even more hilarious…

    Doc Farmer: Cripes, that photo is SO faked! Obama’s not riding side-saddle…

    Bill Phillips: Maybe there’s a reason …I’m not gonna go there …I’m not gonna go there …I’m not gonna go there!

    Mark (71f7cb)

  171. Quite seriously, Russia vs Ukraine is too obscure and esoteric — and very ambiguous — to really give a flying flip about.

    You and Neville Chamberlain would have been tight.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  172. Our perfidy aside, getting Ukraine to give up its nukes was a very, very, very, good thing.

    nk (dbc370)

  173. that’s what Qadaffi though too, I think the lesson is somewhat different,

    narciso (3fec35)

  174. Show of hands— how many here think President Obama or JF Kerry even know there was a Bucharest summit and a signed agreement?

    elissa (a65f5a)

  175. I meant for the world. For Ukraine, it was a bad deal. I agree with A.E. Van Vogt. Weapons equal freedom, for nations and for individuals.

    nk (dbc370)

  176. Well they do now, elissa. Obama probably didn’t know and Kerry probably did.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  177. They could not not have known, elissa. What I picture is Obama, Axelrod and Jarrett meeting in the Oval Office to discuss the political fallout from ignoring it. Not the international standing fallout. Not the national security fallout. The unicorn farting rainbows fallout.

    nk (dbc370)

  178. well there was a link to the Inagist, that said he was using ‘Budapest’ language, although TOTUS, might have been punking him;

    http://inagist.com/all/439902319069896705/

    narciso (3fec35)

  179. WWRD?

    1. This never would have happened because the Russians would be asking themselves that.

    2. If it did, there would not be a Russian good sold a week later in the western world.

    3. A short while later, Cuba would be invaded and reclaimed as US territory, at least until the Russians backed down. Of course, by that time the Cuban people might have had a go at the checkists.

    4. Then we’d strangle their economy.

    But our President today, having lost a won war in Iraq, is not looking for ways to lose the Cold War, too. Reagan he is not.

    But is he Quisling?

    Kevin M (dbcba4)

  180. not now

    Kevin M (dbcba4)

  181. People keep finding themselves saying “Soviet” when they mean Russia (because they always used it when they neant Russia.)

    I understand your point, but let me explain my point. I meant to say Soviet, not Russia, because they are acting like a resurrection of the Soviets that invaded neighbors and wanted conquest, as opposed to being happy taking care of the needs of “Mother Russia”.

    Now, narciso points out that even the non-Soviet Russians had a penchant for expansion, and the use of Soviet may be unwarranted.

    Maybe true, but some of us have enough trouble being clear on history from WWII and beyond.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  182. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 3/1/2014 @ 9:11 pm

    Hmm, it would be interesting primarily to know what Putin’s response was. Possibilities include:
    1) laughing
    2) rolling his eyes and asking a comrade how slow on the take our president is
    3) saying that he will respect the UN charter and international law just as soon as the President begins respecting the US Constitution and US law

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  183. 3:00 a.m. in Moscow. Putin’s bedroom. Phone rings:
    Putin: Da. Oh, Hello, Mr. President. Yes … yes … you’re correct … yes … yes … I agree with everything you say … yes … yes …
    (90 minutes later) It’s always nice talking to you too. Yes, it was a constructive discussion. Thank you, I will tell her. Please give my regards to Mrs. Obama, too.
    (Hangs up phone)
    Alina: Who was that, Vovochka?
    Putin: Obama. He sends you his regards.
    Alina: That’s nice. But why can’t you stop laughing?
    Putin: He told me, ha,ha,ha, he told me (snort, giggle) ha, ha, he told me I was violating international law, ha,ha,ha,ha, ha, ha,ha,ha, Ahh (sigh, snort, giggle) … Alinka, my sparrow, if I don’t stop laughing in an hour, ha,ha,ha, please call a doctor, … ha,ha,ha,ha ….

    nk (dbc370)

  184. Putin was pumping President Obama for information.

    Because there is something he is afraidf he might do. He has to determine whther the idea is Obama’s mind or not.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  185. Can American ambassadors refrain from using the word “nervous” during a standoff?

    I realize it probably isn’t going to make a tangible difference, but could they try to pretend to project some strength and confidence and used “concerned” or “paying close attention to the situation” instead?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  186. 179. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 3/1/2014 @ 8:38 pm

    Our perfidy aside, getting Ukraine to give up its nukes was a very, very, very, good thing

    The only thing is, Ukraine probably never really had nukes, because they didn’t have the codes, and it would have bene some work to extract the radioacvtove material and reassemble the bombs.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  187. You and Neville Chamberlain would have been tight.

    FC, since the very essence of your screen name, “Former Conservative” apparently refers to your moving from the right to the left as you’ve grown older — or just the opposite of what happens to various sensible, thoughtful people — I don’t have a ton of confidence in the way you perceive people and situations.

    Liberal biases notoriously make one prone to using moral relativism. So your inserting the specter of Neville Chamberlain in the context of Russia and the Ukraine, and even more so applying that notorious British figurehead to a situation in the context of the USA, Russia and the Ukraine, is full of the clumsiness and clunkiness of moral equivalency.

    Mark (71f7cb)

  188. after the uproar over a Svoboda member in the cabinet, crickets,

    http://inagist.com/all/440166260970500096/?utm_source=inagist&utm_medium=rss

    narciso (3fec35)

  189. 195. I’ve got an ATM in the garage and a cutting torch and you say I need codes?

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  190. ‘Follow the money’ explains part of this;

    http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

    narciso (3fec35)

  191. 197. It’s a summary post, with video, written February 21, and updated since in the comments.

    The last thing she added was the February 27, 2014 Branco cartoon from Legal Insurrection.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/tag/a-f-branco/

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  192. She also added a great video recently, about a half hour long.

    My point is she has a good understanding and perspective of the lead-up, not that she’s CNN.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  193. 195 199. Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/2/2014 @ 9:55 am

    I’ve got an ATM in the garage and a cutting torch and you say I need codes?

    Ukraine didn’t really have a “cutting torch” – this is extremely dangerous radioactive material, designed not to be easily used by strange people.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  194. 203. Sammy, I’ve worked with engineers from Belarus, Sevastopol, Ossetia, Volgagrad, etc.

    I’m pretty sure we could muddle through.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  195. Handing over the nukes to the West for De-Milling was crucial to the Ukraine (and Kazakhstan) as it probably financed much of their first years out from under the heel of Moscow, and did the Kremlin a favor as they did not have the funds to deal with the down-sizing of their nuclear forces – they needed us to finance it, which WJC was more than willing to do from the Peace Dividend.

    BTW, where are the words of BillyJeff in denouncing Putin for his violation of the agreement that Russia signed in 1994?
    Where is the outrage of Madeleine Half-Bright?
    (I mispoke earlier in calling the agreement the Bucharest Agreement – which ended the Balkan Wars in 1913, it is the Budepest Memorandum on Security Assurances)

    askeptic (2bb434)

  196. 205. We are getting on when we confuse brunettes with blonds.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  197. Oh, gary, i “got on” long ago.
    When asked “Do you prefer blondes or brunettes?” my answer is “Yes!”

    askeptic (2bb434)

  198. Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 3/2/2014 @ 10:44 am

    Where is the outrage of Madeleine Half-Bright?

    Here is the link:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_freevideo+%28RSS%3A+Video%29#/video/bestoftv/2014/03/02/exp-gps-albright-sot-ukraine-kosovo.cnn

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  199. Kunming is the most populous metropolis on Earth:

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/28-dead-in-terrorist-attack-at-southwest-china-train-station/

    Plenty of collateral.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  200. Saturday’s phone conversation between Obama and Putin (as reported by a commenter at the WaTimes -

    Obama: I have concerns about your occupation of the Crimea.

    Putin: So what you going to do about it, Nancy boy?

    Obama: Well… it’s… umm… really DEEP concern.

    Putin: Is that so? Is it deeper than your “concern” over Syria?

    Obama: Umm… Err… No, not really.

    Putin: Good. Now go cry like little girl, and stop bothering me.

    Obama: Umm… Well… Okay, bye.
    ………………………………………

    It would really be nice if someone could teach this “man” how to be photographed standing on two feet, perhaps to demonstrate how resolute he is.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  201. President Obama’s foreign policy comes into question from a surprising source, the…NYT.

    Now Ukraine has emerged as a test of Obama’s argument that, far from weakening American power, he has enhanced it through smarter diplomacy, stronger alliances and a realism untainted by the ideology that guided his predecessor.

    It will be a hard argument for him to make, analysts say.

    A president who has made clear to the American public that the “tide of war is receding” has also made clear to foreign leaders, including opportunists in Russia, that he has no appetite for a new one. What is left is a vacuum once filled, at least in part, by the possibility of American force.

    “If you are effectively taking the stick option off the table, then what are you left with?” said Andrew C. Kuchins, who heads the Russia and Eurasia Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. “I don’t think that Obama and his people really understand how others in the world are viewing his policies.”

    Rarely has a threat from a U.S. president been dismissed as quickly — and comprehensively — as Obama’s warning Friday night to Russian President Vladi­mir Putin.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ukraine-crisis-tests-obamas-foreign-policy-focus-on-diplomacy-over-military-force/2014/03/01/c83ec62c-a157-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html

    Dana (9a8f57)

  202. 208- Oh, it’s on CNN? No wonder no one knows about it.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  203. I wonder if Vladimir Putin secretly snuck into America and voted for Obama in the last election.

    He’s ex-KGB, so I’d say, “Probably.”

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  204. “Moles for Obama”…that was the margin.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  205. 210. LOL. Impotent Soft-Bottom couldn’t even incite the Chechens into ruining the homophobes’ May Day parade.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  206. AgoSolvo • 21 hours ago

    Comment by gary gulrud (e2cef3) — 3/2/2014 @ 11:05 am

    From a comment at the link:
    … I had to get the facts from an Indian media outlet. This was a muslim terror attack and the US MSM refuses to call it what it is. I’m surprised they didn’t go with the old standby “students”.

    Hmmm, I wonder how long it will be before a US news outlet reports the attackers were Islamic terrorists, assuming this comment is true.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  207. “I don’t think that Obama and his people really understand how others in the world are viewing his policies.”
    Comment by Dana (9a8f57) — 3/2/2014 @ 11:13 am

    Somebody with skills needs to put that in the mouth of the Spaniard swordsman, Inego Montoya (sp?).

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  208. Dana, why would they have any comprehension of how foreigners think of us, when they have no comprehension of how those in fly-over country think of them.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  209. 216. Uighurs from Guantanamo doubtless.

    Pretty soon foreign governments will be treating Barry Joe Btfsplk like a leper.

    Oh, wait,..

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  210. He just likes her spunk.

    howard-dean-obamacare-ipab-a-problem-its-a-health-care-rationing-body-chomsky-admires-palin

    And maybe another quality or two.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  211. Well possibly gary, but they could those ‘peaceful’ Rohinika (sic) from Burma,

    narciso (3fec35)

  212. 205. Handing over the nukes to the West for De-Milling was crucial to the Ukraine (and Kazakhstan) as it probably financed much of their first years out from under the heel of Moscow, and did the Kremlin a favor as they did not have the funds to deal with the down-sizing of their nuclear forces – they needed us to finance it, which WJC was more than willing to do from the Peace Dividend.

    We also bought uranium from decommissioned nuclear bombs from Russia, and it was used to fuel nuclear reactors.

    http://www.npr.org/2013/12/11/250007526/megatons-to-megawatts-russian-warheads-fuel-u-s-power-plants

    Here’s a remarkable fact: For the past two decades, 10 percent of all the electricity consumed in the United States has come from Russian nuclear warheads. …The Russians made around $17 billion. Sewell’s government office was spun off into a private company — the United States Enrichment Corporation — and made money from the deal too. And the U.S. power plants got the uranium at a good price….The last shipment arrives today [Dec. 11, 2013] at a US storage facility. It will be sold off to utilities in coming years

    Putin, it seems, would rather now have the nuclear bombs, although it was being portrayed as simply the contract running out.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  213. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/ukraine.html?hp

    Ukraine Puts Troops on High Alert, Threatening War

    …. As Ukrainians gathered in central Kiev for a large patriotic rally, Russian troops without badges and pro-Russian “self-defense” forces surrounded some Ukrainian military bases in Crimea, urging the soldiers and sailors to defect to the new authorities not recognized by Kiev. There was tension and discussion, but no violence from either side. …

    …Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday called Russia’s action as “an act of aggression that is completely trumped up,” suggesting that Russia was “possibly trying to annex Crimea.”

    But while saying that Russia was “in direct, overt violation of international law,” Mr. Kerry, in an appearance on the NBC program “Meet the Press,” tempered his vigorous denunciation by saying that “the last thing anybody wants is a military option in this kind of a situation.”

    Russia, Mr. Kerry said in one of three Sunday television appearances on the crisis, could pay “a huge price” for its behavior, including the possible cancellation of the Group of Eight meeting slated for June in Sochi. If this continues, he said, Mr. Putin “is not going to have a Sochi G8, he may not even remain in the G8.”

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  214. William Kristol’s take on the conversation yesterday between Obama and Putin…

    askeptic (2bb434)

  215. 222. Do you sleep? Like weekly?

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  216. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 3/2/2014 @ 12:06 pm

    , but they could those ‘peaceful’ Rohinika (sic) from Burma,

    What happened in China, of course, looks very much like Islamic terorism – incidentally what did that city used to be called? – but sometimes you need to think Buddhist, not Moslem:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/asia/rise-in-bigotry-fuels-massacre-inside-myanmar.html

    The villagers’ accounts back up a United Nations investigation, which concluded that the attack on Du Chee Yar Tan that night resulted in the deaths of at least 40 men, women and children, one of the worst instances of violence against the country’s long-persecuted Rohingya Muslims. They were killed, the United Nations says, by local security forces and civilians of the rival Rakhine ethnic group, many of them adherents of an extreme Buddhist ideology who were angered by the kidnapping of a Rakhine policeman by some Rohingya men….

    ….The killings are a test for Myanmar’s government, which has done little to rein in radical Buddhists, even as it pursues broad economic and political reforms of policies created by its former military leaders. The government has backed severe restrictions imposed by local authorities on Muslims’ freedom of movement and deprivation of basic services in Rakhine State, where most Rohingya live.

    These people are considered illegal aliens, although they apparently broke no law in coming there, in British times. There is no 14th amendment citizenship clause in Burma.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  217. 226. He’s taking it well, don’t you think.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  218. 226. That conversation with Putin was one of the more stupid things Obama has done, although he probably got strong advice to do so.

    He threatens something vague on Friday, meaning he wants to maximize uncertainty on the part of Putin.

    Then, on Saturday, he has a long conversation with Putin, which reduces uncertainy!

    He should have refused to talk to him!

    What was important was not what Obama said, but what he didn’t say, and they talked long enough for Putin to be pretty sure Obama was not going to do certain things.

    Putin probably also listened to see if there was a tone of confidence, or perhaps instead, a tone of begging.

    He listened to see if Obama felt he had an ace in the hole, or he didn’t. This is not chess, but poker.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  219. @ askeptic,

    Dana, why would they have any comprehension of how foreigners think of us, when they have no comprehension of how those in fly-over country think of them.

    You certainly make a solid point.

    Dana (9a8f57)

  220. could pay “a huge price” for its behavior, including the possible cancellation of the Group of Eight meeting slated for June in Sochi.

    That calls to mind my watching a video a few years ago of an old episode of “Saturday Night Live” from around the time when Jimmy Carter was in the White House. The Soviet Union had just invaded Afghanistan and the “newscaster” on the “Weekend Update” segment reported that Carter said the US would have no choice but to boycott the Miss Universe pageant.

    Mark (71f7cb)

  221. 226. (White House press release quoted and annotated)

    It looks like that, by Saturday, at least, Obama did know about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

    And he didn’t forget to mention the 1975 Helsinki agreement (no change in the boundaries of European countries)

    Of course who would have thunk then that one day Ukraine would be an independent country!

    Brezhnev was so anxious to get that signed, he even consented to a human rights addendum – which turned out to be the only thing that mattered then. Brezhnev had somehow worried that somebody would want to undo the Nazi-Soviet pact, or the treaty with Finland or maybe some other border changes ratified at Yalta. Nobody was thinking about that.

    President Gerald Ford kind of got lost in the thickets of a sentence in the 1976 Presidential debates and never fought his way out.

    I felt sure he wanted to say that the Soviet Union didn’t dominate Eastern Europe because of the Helsinki agreement.

    But he ended the sentence wrong, on anote of high rhetori, and then when given an opportunity by Max frankel to take it back, Ford doubled down and tried to justify what he had said. Well, there was Yugoslavia. And there was Romania. Um, you need a third country. Henry Kissinger had just visited 3 countries in Eastern Europe. Poland!

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  222. 230-
    I think Bill is low-balling this to emphasize his previous criticisms of this President, and that we have entered Fool’s Territory behind a phalanx of clowns.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  223. 229. Putin is not playing chess – he’s playing poker.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  224. Obama should not have had that conversdation with Putin.

    That would have caused Putin to think it over some more.

    Putin was calling all over. Angela Merkel, British Prime Minister David Cameron, United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki Moon.

    The chances that Obama would know exactly what to say to Putin were very small. All that he could do was relieve anxiety on the part of Putin.

    Sammy Finkelman (7072ea)

  225. Obama has spent 5 years being Obama. It didn’t matter what he said to Putin or what he didn’t say to Putin, he had already said more than enough.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  226. Told Yah So

    “…Palin, on her Facebook page this weekend, said that when she was campaigning in 2008 as Republican presidential candidate John McCain’s running mate, she was “derided” for predicting that the Ukraine would be invaded should then-Sen. Barack Obama be elected…”

    askeptic (2bb434)

  227. In the District Court of the United States of America,
    District of Columbia

    Barack Hussein Obama,
    Plaintiff,
    vs.
    Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin,
    Defendant.

    PRELIMINARY INJUCTION

    This cause coming to be heard on Plaintiff’s Complaint for Injunctive, Declaratory and Other Relief, for Racial Discrimination under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and under The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990, the Plaintiff appearing through his attorney, Eric Himpton Holder, Jr., and moving ex parte for a temporary injunction against the Defendant, the Court finds and orders:

    1. Plaintiff alleges that Defendant has willfully and intentionally refused to apply a racially preferential standard to Plaintiff, in the same manner as 47% of the American electorate, resulting in disparate treatment of Plaintiff as contrasted with the treatment afforded him by the aforementioned 47%, in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964;

    2. Plaintiff further alleges that Defendant has willfully and intentionally failed to make reasonable accommodation for Plaintiff’s disabilities in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act;

    3. The Court finds that for purposes of this preliminary injunction it is not necessary to address the Civil Rights Act allegation because the claim under the Americans With Disabilities Act is dispositive and that Plaintiff has a certainty of prevailing at trial on the merits of that claim;

    4. The Court finds that the Plaintiff has proved, with clear and convincing evidence, that he is indeed a Stuttering Clusterf*** of a Miserable Failure. The Plaintiff has further proved, beyond any doubt, that he is a Jug Eared Fool;

    5. Wherefore, the Defendant is temporarily enjoined and ordered to
    1) Immediately cease and desist from bullying the Plaintiff;
    2) Immediately cease and desist from laughing in the Plaintiff’s face and making insulting hand gestures in reference to the Plaintiff, including but not limited to extending his middle finger or moving his arm with a semi-closed fist in an up and down pumping motion;
    3) Immediately provide Plaintiff with reasonable accommodation of his disability such as refraining from the invasion of other countries while the Plaintiff is playing golf, enjoying wagyu beef with aragula, or watching professional basketball on ESPN.

    This cause is continued to ten days from this date provided the Court has not been incinerated by a nuclear blast.

    SO ORDERED:

    I. Weepforourcountry,
    Judge

    nk (dbc370)

  228. ROTFLMFAO!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  229. 238. Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 3/2/2014 @ 1:16 pm

    Obama has spent 5 years being Obama. It didn’t matter what he said to Putin or what he didn’t say to Putin, he had already said more than enough.

    If that were the case, would Putin have spent 90 minutes on the phone with Obama? Putin had to reassure himself.

    In any case, it was undermining Obama’s policy of bluff and uncertainty.

    Sammy Finkelman (081278)

  230. A satirical moment with Steven Hayward at Powerline.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  231. Like I said above, following the heads up by SPQR, Western Europe needs its Russian gas and they’re going to let Ukraine hang.

    nk (dbc370)

  232. I agree with 244. There is no way Western Europe would risk being cut off from their supply – and clearly Putin knows this. And,if Western Europe isn’t willing to make the move to quell the unrest in the Ukraine, why should/would we?

    However, what I would like to know is, if the Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, but rather a diplomatic document, wherein signatories promised the following, is the U.S. legally bound in any way to use intervention in the Ukraine?

    that none of them would ever threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine. They also pledged that none of them would ever use economic coercion to subordinate Ukraine to their own interest.

    They specifically pledged they would refrain from making each other’s territory the object of military occupation or engage in other uses of force in violation of international law.

    All sides agreed that no such occupation or acquisition will be recognized as legal and that the signatories would “consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.”

    Dana (9a8f57)

  233. It’s a useless piece of paper, by which ukraine gave up it’s nukes,

    narciso (3fec35)

  234. Comment by Dana (9a8f57) — 3/2/2014 @ 2:20 pm

    if the Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty, but rather a diplomatic document, wherein signatories promised the following, is the U.S. legally bound in any way to use intervention in the Ukraine?

    No, and nobody pledged to intervene, just not to recognize any such annexation. That could always be revoked by a future president, or European governments, but Obama and Merkel and Cameron have no reason to do so, so they won’t recognize any kind of annexation, and the Crimea (if it stops there) will be just like 4 or 5 other territories in the former Soviet Union, a haven for hackers and other criminal activity.

    Sammy Finkelman (081278)

  235. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 3/2/2014 @ 2:02 pm

    Western Europe needs its Russian gas and they’re going to let Ukraine hang.

    they could get their gas from the United states, if the Obama Administration was willing:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/10/15/natural-gas-exports-the-obama-administration-dithers-while-a-global-market-waits/

    https://api.maps.arcgis.com/apps/StorytellingTextLegend/index.html?appid=aa7b306e4769400fbc69989d9cbcbea4

    Sammy Finkelman (081278)

  236. 239. The argument was:

    given how Russia has been able to unsettle Ukraine’s pro-Western government without firing a shot, I don’t see why violence would be necessary to bring Kiev to heel

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/sarah-palin-predicted-ukraine-russia/2014/03/02/id/555549?ns_mail_uid=690688&ns_mail_job=1558339_03022014&promo_code=16A2A-1

    Sammy Finkelman (081278)

  237. Russia/USSR….
    A great discombobulation in watching the Sochi Olympics was the 12-hr time difference between Sochi and the West Coast. All of my adult life I had operated on an 11-hour difference (the universal time for the Soviet Union was “Moscow Time”, and Moscow was Z+3, while the Left Coast is Z-8), and now it seems that Russia, from Belarus East to the Urals, is now operating on Z+4, and yet Sochi is due South from Moscow.
    Very confusing.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  238. Well, pieces of paper are only as good as the ability for some party to enforce them, such as our Constitution and its separation of powers.

    Well, maybe much of Western Europe is willing to see Ukraine hang for the sake of getting its Russian gas, but maybe the Ukraine is willing to let Western Europe hang without Russian natural gas rather than hanging by themselves. That’s lots of pipeline to protect from saboteurs, should they be so inclined.
    Anybody see the 1982 movie “World War III”?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  239. 251. Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 3/2/2014 @ 4:20 pm

    and now it seems that Russia, from Belarus East to the Urals, is now operating on Z+4, and yet Sochi is due South from Moscow.

    Very confusing.

    On February 8, 2011, Dmitry Medvedev, then President of Russia, announced the abolition of Daylight Savings Time. What he did was advance the clock one hour, as usual on March 27, 2011, bit not go back, so most of European Russia is permanently on UTC+4.

    That’s a 12-hour time difference during the winter, from the U.S. West Coast, and 11-hours during Daylight Savings Time.

    Medvedev had earlier reduced the number of time zones from 11 to 9 and had already talked of eliminating the switch back and forth.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia

    China has got only one time zone since 1949, although in Tobet and Sinkiang (Xinjiang) they unofficially use time two hours earlier.

    Sammy Finkelman (081278)

  240. Well, we’ve done Stupid with time-zones too.
    When I was in Alaska in the early-60′s, Anchorage and Honolulu shared the same time (Z-10).
    But, the Capitol, Juneau, was in Z-9 and an hour ahead of the two major population centers of the state, Anchorage and Fairbanks.
    So, to molify the business/political community, they placed all of Alaska, except part of the Aleutians, on Z-9.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  241. SPQR, I appreciate your pessimism. Believe me, I’m a real fan of pessimism.

    However, having thought the matter through, Putin isn’t going to try to seize Kiev and the Ukrainian heartland.

    Why?

    Too much cost, not enough benefit. The Russian military could do it, but at great cost, especially with an occupation bleeding them. Occupying, for now anyway, the Crimea and East Ukraine is enough to demonstrate their resolve to protect their bases, the self-determination of their ethnically-Russian people, and to dissuade the Ukraine from getting too tight with the EU, and in particular, with any thoughts of placing ABM missiles on their territory for the benefit of Europe and America.

    It wasn’t an ideal situation, since it earns Russia hatred by the Ukrainians, but it’s much better from his perspective than simply losing Ukraine to the west.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  242. Azz Lapper in Chief is trying not to look desperate, hoping someone, anyone will attend to his words for the cameras.

    Caroline Glick:

    “More than three quarters of the Jews of Israel believe in incorporating all or parts of the West Bank into Israel on a permanent basis,” she added. “We know the two-state peace plan is a lie. We know the PLO wants to destroy Israel more than it wants a Palestinian state. And we know that we will not lose our Jewish majority if we incorporate the West Bank into Israel.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  243. Wondering, will the USN George H. W. Bush proceed through the Bosporus?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-03/russian-fleet-gives-ukrainian-crimea-forces-ultimatum-surrender-or-face-storm-ukrain

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  244. Stolen (kind of) from the comments there: The situation is under control, Obama has a pen.

    nk (dbc370)

  245. Gary, the Turks won’t permit the transit of a CVBG and the Black Sea is pretty much a Russian lake – dumb place to operate a CVBG

    SPQR (768505)

  246. There’s a treaty that lets the US operate two frigates in the Black Sea. You can do that. It’s symbolic and they’re essentially a tripwire.

    They sail around a bit, maybe visit a port, wave the flag, in essence.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  247. They’d be sunk very quickly if there was a conflict, probably without them doing any damage, but not necessarily. They could lob a few nuclear cruise missiles in Russia’s direction from right by Russia.

    Won’t happen, but they theoretically could, and Russia’s aware of this.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  248. Guys, you look to have good intentions and principles, but read a little bit about history of those places:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
    PS: I’m not Polish, but I had once a polish girlfriend :)

    Daniel (a6feb8)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.7308 secs.