Patterico's Pontifications

2/26/2014

Does This Seem Somehow Familiar?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:08 am

Andrew Branca at Legal Insurrection:

For a dramatic example of how quickly a fight can go bad even for a trained, experienced, and armed police officer against an unarmed aggressor — an example with eerie parallels to George Zimmerman’s defensive shooting of Trayvon Martin — see this bit of cellphone video.

It captures a Kansas City Police Officer having to go for his gun after an unarmed suspect he was attempting to arrest got the upper hand and started beating the police officer’s head into the sidewalk. The officer fired twice, with one of those rounds tearing through the attacker’s diaphragm, liver, and heart, and killing him.

Although these events took place last December 1, the video was only just released when the grand jury empaneled to review the shooting returned a “no bill” against Police Officer Donald Hubbard, meaning no criminal action will be taken against him for the shooting death of the attacker, 26-year-old Anthony Bruno. Bruno was himself an off-duty firefighter.

Bruno had been celebrating his marriage that evening when he got into an argument with a taxi driver outside the Kansas City Marriott Downtown and began to beat the driver. Officer Hubbard was working off-duty security at the hotel, wearing his uniform, and responded to the conflict, catching up with the departing Bruno some distance down the street.

Hubbard attempted to arrest Bruno, who was non-compliant. Soon the men were wrestling on the ground, where it appeared that Hubbard had the upper hand. In an instant, however, Bruno had flipped Hubbard onto his back on the sidewalk, and begun raining down vicious blows that caught Hubbard’s skull between Bruno’s fist driving down from above and the concrete below. Hubbard’s injuries would include a broken eye socket and a fractured cheekbone, although it appears that Bruno had only time for less than a handful of blows.

Sensing the loss of consciousness and fearing he would be beaten to death, Hubbard drew his service pistol and fired twice into Bruno’s chest.

Here’s the video. It goes without saying that if you are disturbed by violence you should not watch it:

Note also the idiot commentary of the onlookers.

Thanks to redc1c4 for bringing this to my attention.

123 Responses to “Does This Seem Somehow Familiar?”

  1. The guy shooting the video and his girl make some dumb comments. Thankfully, they provided the video.

    AZ Bob (533fbc)

  2. I dunnot, “Don’t fight the cop!” isn’t really that dumb of a thing to say. The guy even looks up, acknowledging the onlookers shouted warning, and then begins to pound the police officer in the head with his fist.

    Xmas (f65ded)

  3. I’m going by the article, not the video.

    First impression:

    For some reason off-duty firefighter Anthony Bruno had gotten into an argument with a taxi driver, and assaulted him. (was it the fare? A clam he was cheating him? Or he didn’t want to pick him up? Words he used?)

    Off duty police officer Donald Hubbard, who was working as a security guard at the hotel where the taxi had stopped, saw this and apparently attempted to intervene.

    It sounds like maybe when Anthomy Bruno saw him coming to the aid of the taxi driver, he started running away.

    By the time Officer Hubbard reached him, he was leaving. It had stopped.

    Hubbard, it says, was working off-duty as a security guard “wearing his uniform” (Security guard uniform? Police Department uniform? What kind of a uniform is that?)

    Anyway, he attempted to detain him.

    Anthony Bruno did not like being detained, and he may even have felt he didn’t deserve to get arrested for that. Or maybe he just didn’t want to be detained for the authorities.

    Firefighter Anthony Bruno may have been worried about losing his city job. I don’t know what the policy might be there.

    There was a certain right to do that on the part of any citizen. In any case, this was probably clearly not a malicious, causeless, assault, and Bruno knew what this was all about.

    Anthony Bruno then started to beat up Donald Hubbard, (whom he may not have realized was more than a just a security guard, and whom he may not have realized was armed with a gun, and was a full fledged honest to goodness police officer!) and attempted to attack him.

    This was possibly just in order to escape. He couldn’t out-run him, so he wanted to knock him out or worse.

    This went on long enough for someone to pull out his cellphone camera.

    Bruno was starting to win the fight when the police officer pulled out his gun, and shot him twice.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  4. 2. That would seem to indicate that Anthony Bruno understood he was in the wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  5. Thus is the plight of the street cop… Note that no one closed on the encounter to assist, they just stood there and took video and yelled. And someone died.
    @ Sammy– many agencies allow their officers to work security gigs in uniform. Maybe not that good of an idea sometimes, but it is sanctioned by the agency.
    @ Pat/Andrew– today’s officer is taught to soft-pedal contacts and to cautiously escalate the use of force. Those who take the time to keep fit and maintain their fighting skills are often criticized and also find those facts mentioned in legal proceedings against them should they put it to use. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    And trying to get those officers who do not have the dedication to fitness to stay in some semblance of good condition is the bane of the police supervisor’s existence.

    gramps, the original (b18bfc)

  6. Yet another case of “terminal stupidity”

    Neo (d1c681)

  7. Initial impression on first viewing: Bruno was resisting the cop’s efforts to handcuff him. The cop escalated attempts to control Bruno by kneeling on his head which infuriated Bruno, who immediately went on the attack, succeeded in gaining a dominant position and against advise of on-lookers began punching the cop in the face.

    Had the on-lookers offered to assist the cop, Bruno might still be alive, in jail, but alive.

    ropelight (8efa99)

  8. I know there’s a sense the power of the cop is disproportionate in this pursuit.

    I sense that prevalence will not long prevail.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  9. Sanny, I don’t normally read any of your comments and this one is a prime example of why I don’t. Maybe, possibly, speculation, and assumptions.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  10. “That cop is taking a very aggressive stance!”

    You’re dealing with a violent drunk and you’re taking an aggressive stance. No shit, Sherlock. And you got it on video. Whooopee. Typical liberals, no civilian is responsible for their own actions.

    I saw this in Chicago years ago. A man and a woman were yelling at each other in the street during rush hour. Big crowd around them. Cops separated them, questioned them. Suddenly the man shoved two police officers out of his way and charged the woman. The cops grabbed him, wrestled him to the ground and certain people in the crowd started yelling “He didn’t do nothing! He didn’t do nothing!” even though he was CLEARLY assaulting someone. That was a real eye-opener for me.

    CrustyB (5a646c)

  11. Looks like the fireman knew how to grapple and the cop didn’t. If the cop would have had some basic bjj training, it never would have escalated to that point.

    BradnSA (43f425)

  12. “Had the on-lookers offered to assist the cop, Bruno might still be alive, in jail, but alive.”

    Or they might have got shot by the cop or the suspect or injured or sued or even assisted in an arrest that was immoral (I don’t know how much they knew about the facts leading up to it).

    There was a time I would have assisted without hesitation, seeing it as my duty. That time was before the US and other western nations, but especially the US, turned into militarized police states and mass surveillance societies.

    As far as the one minute covered by this video, while perhaps the cop could have avoided enraging the guy by kneeling on his head, it was within the context of trying to make an arrest, who knows if it was deliberate, and by the time the guy was pounding on him, he had to pull his gun and shoot to avoid brain damage.

    Speaking of which, being kneeled on the head isn’t so great for the suspect’s brain or the thin areas of his skull around his temple, so it could be argued he was defending his life at that point. Therefore, I can’t morally condemn his attempt to defeat the cop in combat after that.

    Although it was a bad idea. Submitting to the arrest would have been pragmatic.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  13. “kneeling on his head?” The cop changed positions and his knee brushed his head before landing on the ground. Where do you get that he was “kneeling on his head?”

    CrustyB (5a646c)

  14. Note that no one closed on the encounter to assist, they just stood there and took video and yelled. And someone died.

    gramps, do cops in this day and age really want help from onlookers? I have limited experience with this sort of thing, but when I have been near an arrest in progress, even by a solo cop, I am used to hearing the cop yell to onlookers to stay back.

    So it’s the guy’s wedding night, he gets into a fight with a cabbie, and then ends up in a tussle with a cop that costs him his life. What do you want to bet that alcohol played a pretty prominent role in all of this?

    JVW (709bc7)

  15. Pin on this Smith & Wesson http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.aspx/productId/12061/Smith-Wesson-Concealable-Video-Camera-For-Training-and-Fire-Investigation/?gclid=CNCJp_qj6rwCFUVo7AodgAIABw before you strap on the other one. It costs about as much as you’d pay for half an hour of a lawyer’s time. If only Zimmerman had had one. Nah, those rabid sows, Biondi and Corey, and their pimp Walker, would still have gone ahead with the political persecution.

    nk who is Beldar's friend (dbc370)

  16. The more I watch that video, the more it looks like the cop pretty aggressively knees the other guy in the head. Whether he did that on purpose or was just changing positions, the other guy’s head probably hit the concrete before the cop’s leg quickly slid off. That’s when the whole nature of the fight changed.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  17. I hope the cop is investigated for using excessive force — not for the shots, for the knee.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  18. Greetings:

    A small point perhaps, but I never liked the idea of police office working as private security, especially in uniform.

    11B40 (b5ff1f)

  19. That’s just about every cop, 11B40. What else can they do half as well? More than that. In Chicago, armed security guards are Special Police, trained and licensed by the police department, and I don’t imagine Chicago is the only place that does that. Why not moonlighting real police? On the point of him wearing his police uniform — that’s common too but without the badge and the security firm’s sleeve patch velcroed over the city patch.

    nk (dbc370)

  20. Former Consertvative, You really believe that an offer of assistance would have gotten them shot? Not assisting because the arrest may have been “immoral”? Militarized police state? Get real. You want to see a police state? I refer you to Rubio’s speech in the senate.

    Avoided enraging the guy by not kneeling on his head? 1) He didn’t and 2) Bruno was resisting arrest.

    You really believe that this guy who just beat on a taxi driver can’t be morally condemned for beating on the cop because he was defending his life? How about moral condemnation for resisting arrest? How is it you came to hate the police so much?

    Submitting to arrest is not only pragmatic, it’s required. That’s why resisting arrest is against the law.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  21. The more I watch that video, the more it looks like the cop pretty aggressively knees the other guy in the head. Whether he did that on purpose or was just changing positions, the other guy’s head probably hit the concrete before the cop’s leg quickly slid off. That’s when the whole nature of the fight changed.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 2/26/2014 @ 9:17 am

    Make up your mind, did he knee him aggressively or did it happen while changing positions? If you think it was an aggressive move then that pretty much lets out an incidental contact. I didn’t see any aggressive kneeing, but then I don’t hate the police.

    JVW, If you’re losing the fight, yes help from onlookers would be welcome. As to the alcohol, no bet. It’s a near certainty.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  22. Labcatcher, I believe the United States has become predominantly evil during my lifetime.

    25% of the world’s prisoners, 5% of the world’s population. A five-fold increase in those jailed or imprisoned in my lifetime, the vast majority for doing nothing immoral whatsoever, or for being driven to crime due to the government’s attempts to ban voluntary trade.

    And yes, militarized police force with SWAT teams and no-knock warrants galore. Where have you been?

    Also, out-of-control domestic spying. And so on.

    Police enforce these evil laws. I certainly don’t grant them any special moral authority beyond that of an average person. They have guns and radios. Raw power is it.

    Incidentally the odd police officer will do something good from time to time, but they do that in Russia also — without randomly killing or beating so many people or imprisoning ungodly numbers of them.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  23. So far, all the comments seem familiar as well.

    felipe (6100bc)

  24. Greetings, nk:

    @ Comment by nk (dbc370) — 2/26/2014 @ 9:32 am

    I didn’t realize that there was that degree of prevalence. While there would certainly be significant skill set overlap, as you pointed out, I’m kind off hung up on the “mercenary” and “No man can serve two masters” issues.

    11B40 (b5ff1f)

  25. On second viewing (see #7 for initial view) the cop uses his knees first on Bruno’s left side to help hold him down, and then rather violently the second time on or near Bruno’s head. Prior to the knee drop, Bruno had already beat a taxi driver, and was now actively resisting being handcuffed, but not actually fighting back.

    It was the knee drop that precipitated Bruno’s violent reaction whether it landed on Bruno’s head or not and drove the conflict from one of moderately resisting to overt grappling to violent blows.

    I’ve seen the technique before, control the head and the body follows. You can’t watch Cops on TV without seeing it used in very similar resistance situations.

    Notice also, it’s when the female on-looker shouts at the cop What did he do? distracting him for a few seconds that Bruno is able to roll the cop over, reverse position, and begin to land blows to the cop’s head and face.

    I can’t fault the cop for shooting Bruno. But I do fault the on-lookers for failing to offer assistance to the cop and for distracting him.

    ropelight (8efa99)

  26. Former @21, quite a rant.

    If you truly believe that america is predominantly evil, why are you still here? Canada would be a close by option for you with no language problems.

    I just realized that you are one of those that want no government interference with your precious drugs and that drives your view of everything having to do with the police. You are in the minority, I doubt you would like Canada much better except for the shorter jail terms.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  27. FWIW I have helped a uniformed police officer subdue a suspect – I saw the altercation, both suspect and officer wrestling on the ground. The officer had used his mace but had it knocked from his hand. I approached and shouted to the officer if I could help and he responded YES! Once I got on the suspect’s legs, he pretty much gave up. Only when things were calm and we stood up did I notice a knife on the ground a few feet away. My intervention may have prevented this altercation from being being fatal for either the officer or suspect regardless of who was “at fault”. Bottom line for me is “don’t resist and live to make your case to the arresting officer or judge”.

    Mike S. (f5d617)

  28. I just turned the volume way up. After the gal asks what did he do, the cop looked up and said what sounded to me like, —- some help here. Anyone else with better hearing?

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  29. Thus is the plight of the street cop… Note that no one closed on the encounter to assist, they just stood there and took video and yelled. And someone died.

    Gramps, that’s true.

    Former Christoph notes that there are risks when you help others.

    This is also true.

    I think boasts online are pathetic, but I will note that my nose is still just slightly crooked because I stepped in once. I can revisit the decision every time I look at a mirror, but I don’t need to. When you do the right thing, the consequences feel more like a fact of life than a mistake.

    A few years ago someone attempted to mug my wife at a bus stop. They did not succeed because I have an awesome wife, but she still gets upset to be reminded of the event because there were several other people there, including some men, and they did not attempt to help her. They just kinda stood there, cowardly. This was in Texas too, where the stereotype is chivalry and macho men, but it was at a conference in Austin and that may be an exception. I won’t be that guy who doesn’t help, and I implore others not to be that guy. Even if the person who needs help is a police officer, or someone you don’t like, or you are wise to the potential harm of doing the right thing.

    It used to be that society didn’t even need police officers. Sadly we do, thanks largely to cowards. And yes, thanks partly to abuse of the legal system. I’ll give Former Christoph that much. If you help someone, you might end up in pain, with a little honor. There are worse things.

    When you refuse to do so out of self interest, the word is cowardice. Remember that word next time you see someone who needs help.

    Speaking of which, being kneeled on the head isn’t so great for the suspect’s brain or the thin areas of his skull around his temple, so it could be argued he was defending his life at that point. Therefore, I can’t morally condemn his attempt to defeat the cop in combat after that.

    The officer was making a completely lawful stop, and this man resisted with force. But because the consequences of that force were potentially deadly to your view (oddly), you can’t condemn potentially deadly attacks on the officer, who was trying to stop a criminal. Wow.

    “Incidentally the odd police officer will do something good from time to time”

    One wonders how much time you spend in the United States with such a bizarre view of the country.

    The bad apples and abuses of power are absolutely intolerable and deserve the public’s attention and a strong penalty, however, to say these are the majority of what police do, and helping people is unusual, is simply untrue and unfair.

    A lot of people see violence directed at an officer and smirk that this is part of their job description, so who cares? Or they talk about some law they disagree with, in Christoph’s case in a country he isn’t eligible to vote in or a citizen of. How does a street cop enforce the NSA’s domestic spy program? I find this kind of idiocy pretty irritating.

    Dustin (303dca)

  30. I am in Canada, and Canada’s becoming pretty evil too in much the same ways, following your lead.

    Britain may be slightly ahead of each of us. Liberty is falling in the west.

    I used to be a huge pro-America booster, pro-military booster, pro-police booster, etc., so it isn’t a cultural objection. It just isn’t the same sort of place I grew up in as a kid.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  31. If you truly believe that america is predominantly evil, why are you still here? Canada would be a close by option for you with no language problems.

    Labacatcher, Christoph is in Canada, actually. He smugs out of ignorance and prejudice.

    I’m not sure why he’s around after being banned for calling the nicest former blogger here the C word. I think there was some kind of global ban amnesty at some point.

    Dustin (303dca)

  32. Thanks Dustin, I now know not to respond to him.

    As to your comments at 28, Bill Whittle’s tribes pretty much sums up why you did what you did. Good job.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  33. Listen carefully in the beginning- doesn’t the female bystander says something about her “being a nurse and from her experience cops are dicks.” She doesn’t even have all the facts and makes that accusation. Both of these bystanders take the position that there was an excessive use of force. Do they even know what the law is regarding the level of force that is permissible much less what the facts were in this case? Also, right at the critical point, they panic and the male loses focus with his phone camera. There is a reflection in the glass window though. Without all of the facts, they should reserve judgment. Another webcite reported that a grand jury rejected charges against the officer.

    LT (069c13)

  34. In a weird way, though, Dustin the kids who filmed the encounter provided a very valuable service to the cop, maybe even more than if they had intervened. Yes, had they come to the cop’s aid in subduing the fireman it is probably less likely there would have been a fatality, but we don’t know for 100% certainty that this would be the case. By filming the encounter, however, they helped the cop establish his defense that he feared for his life and had to use lethal force. Otherwise it all up to people’s individual testimony as to what took place at the scene, and observation and memory isn’t always 100% reliable.

    JVW (709bc7)

  35. Knee to head is a decent control technique if done correctly.

    I also don’t have a problem if the cop would have kneed the head. Once you start resisting, the gloves are off and it’s a fight.

    BradnSA (69f417)

  36. The kids are callow idiots, LT, but in their defense when gunshots ring out the smart person ducks for cover, so I don’t blame the camera-operator for losing the picture at that moment.

    JVW (709bc7)

  37. her “being a nurse and from her experience cops are dicks.” She doesn’t even have all the facts and makes that accusation.

    I missed this, but I defer to her judgement. I suspect she knows of what she speaks, in a general sense. Doesn’t mean this cop is a jerk, knee to the guy’s head notwithstanding.

    But I’m sure she has some basis for her feeling. Lord knows I’ve been swayed in that direction! … and I was very solidly in the other camp for years.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  38. In a weird way, though, Dustin the kids who filmed the encounter provided a very valuable service to the cop

    Thank God for that, JVW.

    I do think the officer’s injuries were some help with his defense.

    In my opinion, officers should indeed wear a chest camera at all times (though I’m not sure this would have helped in this incident if the officer was working security). Personally I think such assignments should be arranged through a police department, which assigns an officer and bills for the assignment, and thus there is no ambiguity as to whether the officer is on duty.

    her “being a nurse and from her experience cops are dicks.” She doesn’t even have all the facts and makes that accusation. Both of these bystanders take the position that there was an excessive use of force.

    It is very fashionable to speak with contempt for the police these days. I think there is something healthy about being skeptical of those in power, but sometimes it comes across as simple unfairness. And the facts bear out that this officer was not being a “dick”, but rather was risking his life to stop someone who obviously needed to be stopped.

    Dustin (303dca)

  39. Actually, those kids with the camera probably had the effect of egging on the idiot who started punching the cop. They think carefully about that.

    Dustin (303dca)

  40. I’ve supported police recently in some use of force cases; this one I’m unsure about. Unsure has to resound in his favor, I guess.

    I do think, however, from the guy on the ground’s perspective, he thought he was being intentionally knee-dropped with his head on concrete, and reacted much the same way the cop later did when he was being punched with his head on concrete. People get very protective when their head is being struck by blows while on the ground/concrete, which is why I supported Zimmerman.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  41. Anyone know what type of legal protection you get if you do help a cop in distress, and the perp gets injured?

    BradnSA (69f417)

  42. Well we all know if something like that happened, the cop would go to the wall for you on his honor.

    L.M.A.O.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  43. Brad,

    I’m not aware of any special protection a citizen has when he comes to the aid of a police officer, as opposed to a non-police officer. The State’s Good Samaritan laws could apply if you attempt emergency medical care, although that’s what you are talking about. If you are thinking about liability for helping a police officer fight off an assailant, the law of self-defense (defense of others) might apply.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  44. BradnSA, as much as you would have if you were defending yourself or another innocent civilian. The standard is reasonable force under the circumstances. You may use force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only to prevent death or great bodily harm, or the commission of a felony/violent felony/certain named felonies (depends on the jurisdiction for that last).

    nk (dbc370)

  45. Similarly, I don’t think you have a legal duty to try to help the police officer or any citizen in distress. Fortunately, many Americans feel a moral duty to help, although the legal complications are convincing more and more not to.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  46. Thanks for the answers.

    BradnSA (43f425)

  47. Forty – five year old me might not be as inclined to jump into a fight to help a cop, but eighteen to twenty – six year old sure would have just to fight.

    Incidently, I found out just to do what the cops tell you to do at age fourteenth. A cop thought I was older and roughed me up. That lesson taught me well for the other times the cops picked me up for some reason or another.

    BradnSA (43f425)

  48. Gee, when he found out you were only fourteen, I’m sure he had a sudden pang of conscience for roughing you up. He only roughs up 16+. Cop’s gotta have standards.

    Former Conservative (50cc00)

  49. What do you want to bet that alcohol played a pretty prominent role in all of this?

    I wonder what the autopsy revealed for a BA Level?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  50. Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 2/26/2014 @ 10:02 am

    5% v/ 25%….
    In many places, those detained by the police never see the inside of a courtroom, or a detention facility, but proceed directly to dirt, and do not collect $200.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  51. Stop referring to him as “Officer” Hubbard. He was off duty, working as a security guard. Ergo, at the time of this altercation he was “Security Guard” Hubbard, not “Officer” Hubbard.

    Security Guard Hubbard has no legal authority to arrest Bruno. The grand jury got it wrong. I suspect the prosecutor threw the case.

    I hope the family of Anthony Bruno sues Security Guard Hubbard for everything he is worth. They should also sue the Marriott Hotel and the security company through which Security Guard Hubbard was contracted.

    Guest (930560)

  52. Rules for a street fight:
    It’s a tie for #1…
    Win; and,
    There are no rules.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  53. Guest:
    In most jurisdictions, an off-duty police officer is still a cop
    (which is why they are usually required by their dept’s to carry a weapon),
    and has all the authority of the state to detain, and arrest, someone who has committed a crime in his presence.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  54. So far, all the comments seem familiar as well.

    Comment by felipe (6100bc) — 2/26/2014 @ 10:04 am |Edit This

    Sadly, yes.

    And Guest is a moron. Just like Regressive earlier.

    JD (47d9bc)

  55. Yep, Guest == moron.

    SPQR (95c543)

  56. BradnSA, the problem is – to steal from Tamara K. – you don’t arrive all dripping with qualified immunity.

    SPQR (95c543)

  57. Couple of dumbclucks filming another case of an inebriated individual who fails to comply with lawful actions, who then makes the idiotic choice to beat the officer and pays the price. My sympathies lay with the officer. People who think that shooting a person is an action that provides a thrill for law enforcement personnel are sadly mistaken and malevolent.

    Colonel Haiku (bea7ac)

  58. “Guest” is only visiting this planet…

    Colonel Haiku (bea7ac)

  59. Col., do you think he got his shots?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  60. No, askeptic, and onset of rabies has obviously begun.

    Colonel Haiku (bea7ac)

  61. He’s from another dementia…

    Colonel Haiku (bea7ac)

  62. That’s clever, Colonel.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  63. I read that in Rod Sterling’s voice.

    SPQR (768505)

  64. Me, too. More proof that I’m well-suited to your cabal.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  65. The Twilight Zone intro by Rod Serling.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  66. This would be VERY funny if it wasn’t just sad.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  67. If the Officer did not have gun, no gun would have killed. Take the guns away and gun deaths will be a thing of the past. Disarm LEOs it is for the children.

    highpockets (e08e93)

  68. 5. I’d love to say a good citizen should have stepped in to help the cop, but that’d be a lie. A good Samaritan stepping in could too easily be confused with joining the beating and end up arrested/shot for the troubles. I don’t want to see an honest cop get beat to death, but I don’t want to get shot when he’s a little confused about who the gun is pointed at in a scrum. It kind of sucks, but this is what happens when Police treat citizens as the Others and arrest them for filming arrests and traffic stops. We are trained to let them do their thing without interference or we’ll get hassled by them and possibly arrested, flip side is that a cop in trouble is basically on an island alone.

    allenlou (6f1b46)

  69. Greetings:

    A small point perhaps, but I never liked the idea of police office working as private security, especially in uniform.

    My thoughts also. Because I always wonder about is whether he’s enforcing the law, or the store rules of K-Mart?

    Mike Giles (760480)

  70. Comment by highpockets (e08e93) — 2/26/2014 @ 4:07 pm

    If I didn’t know (?) you were being sarcastic, I would have to respond that you’re a Maroon.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  71. Generally speaking, at least in Calif. If the department allows them to wear the uniform, they are hired through the city. The city will charge whatever they charge and the entity will pay the city. The city then pays the Officers (overtime rates). I know that’s how it works for high school football and basketball games. While in the agency uniform they are constrained by the rules and regs of their agency.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  72. DRJ, you can be in my Cabal anytime.

    SPQR (768505)

  73. cabal is a group
    but mos def ain’t a gaggle
    and ain’t a puetch

    Colonel Haiku (e6799b)

  74. omg please. stop. bang. ing. my. head. on. the. con. crete.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  75. 74- Sorry, but we needed something hard to break it up with/s.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  76. The cop was clearly NOT a wrestler. You never want to be in that position you see at 48 seconds into the video. No wonder the perp pulled a reversal on him and got on top.

    If the cop had pepper spray or a a taser and didn’t use it, he made a bad choice. The perp was too big and too strong to take down gently.

    WarEagle82 (b18ccf)

  77. Firemen are required to be strong. They have to carry people out of burning buildings. (I think they have be able to deadlift 165 lbs?) And brave. And competent. A fire does not respond to “Police officer. Freeze!” Or to “Do you feel lucky, punk?” Or to “Go ahead, make my day”.

    nk (dbc370)

  78. Why do we have firemen? So the police can have heroes, too.

    nk (dbc370)

  79. don’t want to see an honest cop get beat to death, but I don’t want to get shot when he’s a little confused about who the gun is pointed at in a scrum. It kind of sucks, but this is what happens when Police treat citizens as the Others and arrest them for filming arrests and traffic stops.

    How are any of those applicable to this scenario?

    JD (47d9bc)

  80. Some day, I hope that “guest” is having his head slammed into the ground. And doesn’t have a firearm.

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  81. You know, “head getting slammed into the ground” is the one thing I never doubted about the Zimmerman case — clinched when I heard that Martin had trained in MMA. Any real self-defense class will teach you to slam your opponent into available hard objects in preference to hitting him with your delicately-boned hands or feet. I was taught that when I was sixteen.

    nk (dbc370)

  82. Beat on teh cop… beat on teh cop
    beat on teh cop, ’til teh gun goes pop
    Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh-oh…

    Colonel Haiku (ad6d0c)

  83. In LA we have many people killed (girl outside a bar recently) or severely brain damaged (after Dodger opening day) and no guns were involved.

    AZ Bob (533fbc)

  84. I wonder if the “cops are dicks” crowd have ever considered that having a large percentage of the population assume you’re a dick before you’ve done anything at all doesn’t exactly help you preserve a nondickish attitude. It’s a vicious circle, and non-cops who assume the worst about all cops contribute to keep it spinning.

    Dr. Weevil (699a19)

  85. DrWeevil, a lot of people start off with the premise that cops are good people, who have an important role. Sure, scumbags start off thinking cops are bad. But a lot of lawabiding citizens have bad experiences with cops with attitude that shift them into that POV.

    SPQR (768505)

  86. Why are you telling me what I already know? I suspect a lot of cops start out thinking if they just do a good job and treat everyone fairly, they won’t have anyone but criminals treating them like scum. As I said, a vicious circle.

    Dr. Weevil (699a19)

  87. it’s a bizarre world, where cops and law abiding citizens, are scrutinized more then the criminal element,

    narciso (3fec35)

  88. Well, Dr Weevil, my opinions developed from experience. Such as a dozen years ago, when the third woman entered my office complaining of excessive force in a traffic stop by the same officer on the local PD…

    SPQR (768505)

  89. So because one cop has been bad to people you know three times, you think it’s fair to despise all cops? WTF? Obviously you need to be wary of any cop you don’t know, because some of them are assholes. But how do you get from there to the “cops are dicks” generalization, which seems to be implying that “all cops are dicks”. The fact that your three friends complaining of excessive force all named the same one is actually an obvious point against the “all cops are dicks” attitude.

    Dr. Weevil (699a19)

  90. It’s fair to disdain cops because they’ve presided over a five-fold increase in the prison population in forty years, and because they arrest people and ruin their lives for not obeying evil laws against voluntary activities.

    They are just following orders. That is the problem.

    Of course, hiring and training standards over this period has steered police departments to be more militarized and thuggish.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  91. i avoid cops

    like how I avoid thugs generally

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  92. 90. A negative feedback loop. There oughta be a law.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  93. There’s a story somewhere today about a policeman on leave after a traffic stop where he shot a codger reaching for his cane.

    I didn’t read the story.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  94. To say that cops have “presided over a five-fold increase in the prison population” is an obvious (to put it politely) untruth. The executive, legislative, and judicial branches have done all the presiding, though we can argue about which branches are more and less culpable. The cops don’t have any say on what’s illegal and what’s not, and I don’t want them to have any say – or any more say than any other voter. Nor do I want all the good ones to quit and leave their places to bad ones just because the various branches of government have been doing stupid and evil things.

    Dr. Weevil (699a19)

  95. Nor do I want all the good ones to quit and leave their places to bad ones just because the various branches of government have been doing stupid and evil things.

    Your entire comment was wise, but this in particular was very wise.

    But honestly I think Christoph is just trolling. He knows it’s insane to blame the street cop for the legislation or prosecution or verdict patterns.

    Dustin (621e43)

  96. 94. Shot several times hitting the victim once.

    Or should I say perp.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  97. 72. Are you sure? I cuss and chew, and that’s all I’ll admit to in mixed company.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  98. Shot several times hitting the victim once.

    And in South Carolina, too. Kids these days just won’t be bothered to learn how to shoot. They’d rather just be on the internet.

    nk (dbc370)

  99. Having gone on record as being NOT A FAN of law enforcement, I think it should be clear that the moment the cop seems to look for help is the moment to close quickly and plant a heel into Bruno’s temple and then lock down an arm.
    Bruno escalated a simple “a**hole drunk” charge into an “a**hole drunk gets shot to death by cop he tries to go MMA on”

    That said, I refer you to the story where a bunch of NYC’s finest heroes from 9/11 (or maybe they were out in Queens, nevermind) are accused of a scheme milking up to $400M from taxpayers.

    Usually I see these and there are a bunch of fat cops all torquing some guy around in a way the human body was never meant to bend while yelling “stop resisting” and conflicting demands like hands above head, no, out to your sides, cross your legs, spread your legs bla bla at which point they just *bleep* the guy up and laugh about it over beers later.

    This was a fight that needed intervention on the cop side because the cop needed help dealing with a muscular drunk who was clearly the better fighter.Much as I hate to say it, as a society, we have obligations to keep our cops from being hurt by a drunk dimwit.
    The time to exercise the MMA skills on cops is gonna be like… well, no time is the right time for that unless it is an escape from under a metric ton of fat cops

    steveg (794291)

  100. NK

    That is why the cops get to have 30 round magazines.. adrenaline even rules in a 100% one sided gun fight… can you imagine how many shots he’d have needed to shoot up a truck of ladies out predawn throwing out the morning paper?

    Seriously though, outside of Afghanistan these days it is hard to learn to shoot well under extreme pressure… however, if we ask 18-22 year olds to respect strict ROE’s then the least the cops can do is stop shooting little old ladies out doing their $8.50HR job or some old dude tottering around trying to get his cane

    steveg (794291)

  101. To say that cops have “presided over a five-fold increase in the prison population” is an obvious (to put it politely) untruth. The executive, legislative, and judicial branches have done all the presiding,

    Absolutely, including prosecutors. But the people on the line carrying out the evil don’t get a moral pass.

    Even most of the work Patterico does, putting away legitimate brutal murderers, wouldn’t be necessary if we didn’t have such brutal, stupid laws.

    I realize cops and prosecutors and the like do good sometime. But they’ve (as a group if not as individuals) sure upped their evil quotient during my lifetime, such that I no longer support them like I did.

    In my teachers’ defense, they were instructing me based on their experience with police. Now that America and other countries following America’s lead have decided to become tyrannies, it’s a new breed.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  102. He knows it’s insane to blame the street cop for the legislation or prosecution or verdict patterns.

    No, Justin, it’s basic morality 101. “Just following orders,” is not an excuse.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  103. Bad, no good, miserable day on Wall Street today, yen down to near 101/$. DAX hurt nearly 2%.

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  104. 78. Why do we have firemen? So the police can have heroes, too.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 2/26/2014 @ 6:19 pm

    Heh. That’s why we have Sailors. So Marines can have heroes. Their corpsmen.

    Steve57 (a7ff60)

  105. Steve57- Have you seen this? The chevy with a plow.
    http://theferalirishman.blogspot.com/

    mg (31009b)

  106. Darwin

    And I hate the cops b/c more times than not they start the fight for petty reasons.

    This time however ….

    Rodney King's Spirit (ca9e04)

  107. steveg, I think it’s those light-weight, light-trigger, semi-autos and that girly two-handed hold, both intended for spraying. With a decent revolver, with a decent trigger pull, you’re controlling your gun onto the target as you’re pulling the trigger. It’s definitely true for the second shot, recovering from the recoil, but it’s also helpful for the first one, I think, getting that extra small muscle stimulation and nerve feedback to overcome shake and flinch.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. *double action revolver*

    nk (dbc370)

  109. Steveg. You wrote, “Usually I see these and there are a bunch of fat cops all torquing some guy around in a way the human body was never meant to bend while yelling “stop resisting” and conflicting demands like hands above head, no, out to your sides, cross your legs, spread your legs boa boa at which point they just *bleep* the guy up and laugh about it over beers later.”

    It surprises me that they would invite you to have a beer or two with them, what with you “being not a fan of cops”. Or did you just pull that out of thin air? Or make it up. No wonder you don’t like cops, the great majority of them try to stay with facts and it seems that wold really slow you down.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  110. The 98% of corrupt or bullying cops (or willing to cover up for their buddies cops) sure give the 2% of newbie idealistic cops who’ve yet to be driven out of the force a bad name.

    Exaggerating for effect.

    Slightly.

    If you throw in the part in parenthesis, it isn’t even an exaggeration anymore.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  111. Someone has a very peculiar idea of what constitutes an exaggeration.

    Dr. Weevil (699a19)

  112. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 2/27/2014 @ 4:54 am

    really? you don’t shoot much, do you?

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  113. The 98% of corrupt or bullying cops (or willing to cover up for their buddies cops) sure give the 2% of newbie idealistic cops who’ve yet to be driven out of the force a bad name.

    Exaggerating for effect.

    Slightly.

    If you throw in the part in parenthesis, it isn’t even an exaggeration anymore.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 2/27/2014 @ 9:16 am

    I know Dustin warned me but here I am anyway.
    Former, how many cops have you bribed? How many cops have pushed you around? please enlighten all of us how you came to the 98% number other than pulling out of thin air.

    Rodney said
    And I hate the cops b/c more times than not they start the fight for petty reasons.
    Think about that for a minute. Cops go out of roll call or briefing wearing a clean uniform that they have to pay to have dry cleaned every two days, and after their clothing allowance is used up, buy out of the their own pocket at more than 100$ a uniform. They then go out, stop some schmuck and instigate a fight. After the fight they go back to the station and put on a clean uniform so their Sgt. doesn’t get on them for looking like one their customers. Yeah, I am sure it’s just like you said based on your real life experience and having thought it through.

    News flash people, cops would much rather talk people into jail than fight them in.

    Labcatcher (61737c)

  114. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 2/26/2014 @ 9:37 pm

    Yes, that cane could have concealed either a sword, or a firearm.
    Shouldn’t take any chances….just blow the old phart away.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  115. One thing I’ve missed in all of this is any reaction noted to this tragedy by the bride – and for her, it must be a world-class tragedy – and possibly the impetus for some real soul-searching as to why she ever considered matrimony with this guy.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  116. really? you don’t shoot much, do you?

    Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 2/27/2014 @ 12:09 pm

    NoooH. You’re doing it wrong, and your gun sucks. ;)

    I’m old. I first picked up a pistol in 1971 or so when the Weaver stance was still controversial; the S&W Model 14 was the target revolver; shooting with the weak hand was a routine part of training and some competition; and “if pistols were meant to be held with two hands, they’d come with two handles” was said seriously.

    nk (dbc370)

  117. Commenters here who’ve been close to Bubba have mentioned he does not look good.

    We don’t need a closeup to say the same of Hill:

    http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/28/rumors-persist-that-hillary-wont-run-because-health-is-worse-than-disclosed/

    gary gulrud (e2cef3)

  118. #111

    Try learning to read… some cops do like to go out for beers after work and talk about their work day… and nowhere did I say that I was invited…

    and of course cops would rather talk people into jail rather than fight them except this was a post about a fight..

    Speaking of fights and cops:
    The Kelly Thomas case out in.. I believe Fullerton was about a schizophrenic who was beaten to death by cops… one of the cops walks up early on, pulls on his gloves and says “I am going to fuck you up” without total disregard for the ramifications this would have on his drycleaning budget

    steveg (794291)

  119. Note to Self:

    Don’t get drunk and start wrestling with the cops. Pulling macho bullshit with someone with a badge and a gun – even if you aren’t in the wrong – will end badly for you. Sorta like talking shit to a gang member – NOT a good idea.

    Californio (1087a1)


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