Snowden to Brazil: I’ll Trade Secrets for Asylum
The Snowden story is endlessly fascinating to me, because it’s hard to come away from it with a black and white perspective. Yesterday a federal judge comes out with a ruling that the surveillance Snowden revealed is probably unconstitutional — and, interestingly, confers standing on the plaintiffs in part because of Snowden’s revelations. Score one for Snowden! And then, today . . . this:
National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden says he would be willing to help Brazil investigate NSA spying on its soil, but could not fully participate without being granted political asylum because the U.S. government “will continue to interfere with my ability to speak.”
In a lengthy “open letter to the people of Brazil” obtained on Tuesday by The Associated Press, Snowden also commended the Brazilian government for its strong stand against U.S. spying.
Snowden that he’s been inspired by the global debate ignited by his release of thousands of National Security Agency documents, and that the NSA’s culture of indiscriminate global espionage “is collapsing.”
Kinda sounds like what a traitor would do, no? Protect me from the USA and I’ll give you their secrets.
It’s all shades of gray, isn’t it?
it’s no different than making a deal to speak out against any other fascist organization really
happyfeet (8ce051) — 12/17/2013 @ 7:51 amKinda sounds like what a traitor would do, no? Protect me from the USA and I’ll give you their secrets.
Yes, yes it is what a traitor would do.
It’s all shades of gray, isn’t it?
The darkest shade, only. There’s no white left. A little yellow, maybe.
nk (dbc370) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:04 amBrazil is notable for its tranny porn. Snowden and Manning maybe could make some movies together.
nk (dbc370) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:07 am“Get this: The USA is spying on Israel! Gimme something?”
This guy has nothing to offer and nowhere to go.
CrustyB (5a646c) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:09 amGiven that that country is actively trying to arrest him for being a patriot, no, its not being a traitor. He is trying to survive. I don’t begrudge him what he is doing to survive. He is a hero and a patriot for revealing the unconstitutional spying. Especially because he’s only trying to help other countries avoid the same unconstitutional spying (not because it violates their rights, but because the government is not authorized to do such a thing).
Patrick H (f854d7) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:19 amYep, bunches of shades of grey and we’re all getting f*cked.
Colonel Haiku (87ba2e) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:26 amGreetings:
If I may comment on the Brazilian government’s “strong stand against U.S. spying”, I noticed that it didn’t retire the loan it accepted from the Obama administration for its petroleum industry’s development.
Or, as was said in the Bronx of my youth, “Talk is cheap.”
11B40 (4f217f) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:51 amI’m shocked gambling is going on here’
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/5/5068024/brazil-admits-to-spying-on-us-russia-iran-diplomatic-targets-after-nsa-criticism
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:56 amHonestly lets not pretend Eurasia or EastAsia is better then Oceania,
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:01 amAs for Julian’s new hosts;
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/12/16/3822485/ecuador-lashes-out-at-internet.html
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:06 amWonder if he’ll move in with Greenwald and his boyfriend and share their “exile”…
mojo (6db70b) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:13 amWhat the NSA is doing against America is also treason, if you consider the “United States” to be the people and not the government.
“We had to burn down the Constitution to save it” remains unconvincing.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:13 amSnowden? Patriot? Hardly. If this were 1941 he’d be trading in secrets about how the US had broken the Japanese diplomatic and naval codes in time for the Japanese to change them by the Battle of Midway.
Which is an apt analogy for what he did in China, when he revealed what we knew about them and their espionage activities against the US, although it wasn’t reported that way.
The illegal NSA domestic surveillance leaks are a diversion to distract from the massive amounts of legal foreign surveillance information he stole. Which is of course China’s and Russia’s interest in him. As if the assistance they provided to his flight from the US was coincidental.
To fall for the idea that Snowden is a patriot for revealing NSA’s domestic spying activities is to fall for the misdirection. Which is no doubt Putin’s plan.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:16 amI just point out the context that is left out of these ‘breathless’ pieces, is he Christopher Boyce, not exactly, although there are some rhymes, is he Phillip Agee, closer,
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:22 amin his young life Mr. Snowden’s done more to advance the cause of freedom than Meghan’s coward daddy done in all his years
merry christmas Mr. Snowden
happyfeet (c60db2) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:32 amIt’s like Mandela. How do you evaluate a person’s contributions when it’s a mixed bag? I don’t know the answer but I have a feeling history is full of people whose contributions came with strings attacked.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:34 amHowever, I have a feeling liberals would be enthusiastically supporting Snowden if we had a Republican President, which leads me to ignore anything this Administration and its media say about Snowden.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:39 amI’m still of the belief that Snowden is being run by the Russians or the Chinese and has been since before his revelations.
SPQR (768505) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:40 amWell Thomas Drake and Binning (sic) was saying much the same thing, but the global surveilance net, extends everywhere, from the FSB to the Brasilian state agency, to the NSA and GHCQ.
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:45 amIf this were 1941
Snowden’s main revelations have to do with spying on the American people, not with spying on people we are at war with.
Assuming that is, the US Government is not at war with the American people. Hard to say sometimes.
When it comes out that they ARE using location metadata and they ARE spying for internal political reasons, will you still go on about Purple and Enigma?
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:47 amWell more like Yardley’s revelations about ‘the Black Chamber’
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:49 amWhether you like your surveillance state or not, you will keep your surveillance state courtesy of Obamacare.
All in the name of providing better health care and preventing fraud.
Just wait until people find out about the “Federal Data Services Hub” which will have information on everyone in the US from the IRS, the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Defense, the Veterans Administration, the Office of Personnel Management, the Social Security Administration, state Medicaid databases, and the Peace Corps, among other agencies. It will contain your income and financial data, family size, citizenship and immigration status, incarceration status, social security numbers, and private health information.
In fact, it will contain information that doctors will be compelled to ask for even though there is no medical need for it. So be ready to detail your sexual history so the gub’mint can have electronic access to it.
http://nypost.com/2013/09/15/obamacare-will-question-your-sex-life/
The only question your doctor can’t ask you is if you own a firearm. As if that’s the only way that information can make it into this database.
And if you thought it was bad when the NSA was monitoring your phone records and online activity under the national security umbrella, just wait until the IRS monitors under the rubric of preventing tax evasion and under reporting income to qualify for subsidies on the Obamacare exchanges.
http://money.msn.com/credit-rating/irs-tracks-your-digital-footprint
So be angry at the NSA abuses all you want. But all you’re ultimately getting rid of is the foreign surveillance. Not the domestic surveillance.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:51 amI will point out that the NSA has done nothing whatsoever to dial back its spying and the administration seems intent on doubling down.
What we may have here is the Hoover Files on steroids, where no one is willing to go up against an agency that has deep dirt on everyone.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:51 amKevin M., Snowden’s revelations have also undermined our relations with our allies – such as Germany – who benefits from that?
SPQR (768505) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:51 amApparently Barack Obama, since that seems to be his plan from the first day he took office.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:55 amLooks like Snowden’s principled stand is rather unprincipled. I wonder what Snowden’s father will say about this revelation—NOT!
Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:55 amWe don’t seem to do anything that furthers our long term interests;
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/12/two_guantanamo_detai.php
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:55 amSteve,
I don’t limit it to the NSA and I’ve been upset at this since the Supremes said my bank account could be inspected at will by the IRS back in the 70’s.
There ought to be a stronger version of the Fourth Amendment, clearly stating that private information held under contract by third parties is still private information.
US v Miller: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=425&invol=435
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:57 amDRJ, the idea that Snowden is being run by Obama administration would have a delicious appeal were I a true conspiracy theorist nutbar.
And the incompetence of doing so in such a way as to undermine the administration so much would only reinforce the conspiracy theory.
SPQR (768505) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:58 amSPQR–
Oh, c’mon. If a foreign leader is shocked that someone is listening to their cell phone calls or reading their email, they need to be replaced for being too stupid to run a country.
They should maybe consider strong encryption.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:59 amI will bet a thousand dollars against a jelly donut that Germany has been attempting to intercept Obama’s communications for a while now. I would hope he’s using strong encryption, too.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:02 amThe things that did work, we discontinued, and we tried to put those who carried them out in jail;
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/25/cia-docs-eits-worked/
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:04 amSPQR,
I know you know this but, for the record, I wasn’t suggesting Snowden is part of an Obama plot. To the contrary, I bet Obama is furious that Snowden would do anything to stand up to his authority or tarnish his legacy. (It’s fine to do this to Republicans but how dare Snowden do this to a fellow true believer?) But the one thing I don’t think Obama cares about is whether Snowden is damaging our relationship with our traditional allies.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:16 amBack at the ranch:
http://nypost.com/2013/12/16/iran-nuke-deal-quietly-collapses/
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:19 amObama hates Western civilization and is naive. That’s a terrible combination.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:24 amYes, of course. Snowden was given safe refuge in China and Russia because they’re interested in the civil rights of US persons.
You can’t believe the 1% of the information Snowden stole that Greenwald et al have chosen to publicly release (The Guardian Editor in Chief’s estimate of how much they’ve printed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25205846) is representative, can you? Especially when Greenwald has gone to great lengths to claim that Snowden asked him to only release information that was in his judgement was in the public interest.
1% of the documents were in the public interest. Or as the Guardian’s editor in chief put it:
Snowden gave his press contacts lots of information that has nothing to do with domestic surveillance. And he wanted that message to get out when he let them interview him.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position1
He stole all sorts of documents that would harm people. He just didn’t turn them over to the press, he claims. But he made sure to steal them.
Are you really that distracted by the small percentage of information that has been revealed that has to do with the NSA’s domestic activities? That’s not what he’s going to be trafficking in for the rest of his life. It’s all the other stuff he stole, as he told a WaPo reporter he contacted during the same timeframe as he contacted Greenwald and Poitras (but whose name escapes me at the moment) that’s worth all the money.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:25 am“Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:16 am”
On target, fire for effect.
SPQR (768505) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:35 amForeign leaders who are concerned that someone will eavesdrop on their communications don’t use cell phones or email.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/16/nsa-dmitry-medvedev-g20-summit
Who could possibly think it’s in the public interest to know that the NSA monitors the Russian leadership’s secure communications? As if there’s anything wrong with the NSA monitoring their SATCOM links.
I’ll tell you whose interest it’s in, and who thinks the NSA should be stopped.
The Russian leadership.
And, pray, tell me Kevin; who’s sheltering Snowden at the moment?
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:37 amThe US President travels with a little outfit known as the White House Communication Agency, which is a joint military unit.
http://www.disa.mil/Careers/WHCA
And by “little” I mean truckloads of equipment because, as I said, national leaders who are at all interested in secure communications don’t use email and cell phones.
Not even to take selfies.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:42 amFor me, the Snowden NSA revelations added new shades of gray to the already existing shades of gray palate with respect to a balance between privacy and espionage/spying for “national protection”. The “we’ve got to spy on all our citizens in order to protect all our citizens” –and the way it is being done with virtually no oversight– is a very iffy proposition if one truly believes in the protections our Constitution supposedly guarantees.
Whether Americans consider him a hero or the devil or something in between, the question of how young Snowden as a contractor could so easily be hired, could gain unlimited access, and be able to copy and walk away with all this apparently unsecured data is the question that I want answered. Is it incompetence within the agency which has become too powerful to manage, or something else even worse? Hey, you don’t supposed Kathleen Sebelius is clandestinely running the NSA, too, do you ?
elissa (8a28dd) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:46 amObama defends his nuclear deal with Iran in a telephone call to the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at Brookings Institute at the annual Saban Forum probably on Saturday, December 7, 2013: (transcript)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.562259
Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:49 amEdward Snowden says….could not fully participate without being granted political asylum because the U.S. government “will continue to interfere with my ability to speak.”
Right now, it is Russia which is interfering with his ability to speak, not the United States, because it was a condition of Putin granting him asylum that he do nothing further against the United States while he is there, but if he could find a pl;ace to go to, fine.
Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:52 amWe weren’t at war with Japan for most of 1941. We certainly weren’t at war when we began spying on them. In fact, we began trying to break their codes a long time before we went to war with Japan.
http://www.navy.mil/midway/Dyer.html
It isn’t much of a mystery what a naval cryptanalyst would be spending most of his time on at Pearl Harbor in 1936, is it? Especially since Japan had officially considered the US its most likely adversary in any Pacific war since the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty.
Which is why it’s an apt analogy for what Snowden revealed to China about what we know about them and their attempts to conduct espionage against us. And our counterespionage practices against them. Because just like in May 1941 we weren’t at war with Japan, when Snowden got on that plane in May 2013 we weren’t at war with China. But there’s no doubt that China views us as their main adversary in the Pacific.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:12 amI did not vote for this joker, and so refuse to regard him as any kind of free speech hero. People are going to die because of his shenanigans.
The Sanity Inspector (ca8d89) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:20 amMore like a sane person. Snowden did a great benefit to the USA’s people so they’re aware of what’s going on. He shouldn’t put his head on the tyrannical police state’s chopping block any more than a Soviet or Chinese dissident would.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:50 amYes, of course. Snowden was given safe refuge in China and Russia because they’re interested in the civil rights of US persons.
Purely irony and counting coup. Both those countries have an interest in pointing out the US’s hypocrisy whenever possible.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:51 amGoodbye right to remain silent.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:52 amWe weren’t at war with Japan for most of 1941
Potayto, potahto.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:53 amAnd, pray, tell me Kevin; who’s sheltering Snowden at the moment?
As if this proves a damn thing. The US shelters thousands of foreign dissidents for all kinds of reasons. Snowden embarrasses the US government and that is good enough reason for them to play keep-away with him.
That being said, my feelings about Snowden are conflicted. Particularly since he isn’t a classic whistleblower; he sought out the information with the intent of exposing it. That’s spying, and he really needs to pay something for that.
Someone suggested yesterday that the question wasn’t whether he should be shot, or get the Medal of Freedom, but which order the two should happen.
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 12:00 pmYes, it’s not the same, remember he is part of Assuange’s organization, who has made accomodations with Moscow, RT is their champion,
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 12:19 pmNo medal, only the edge of a spade at the base of the skull. It’s clear, now, that he did not reveal domestic spying out of altruism. It was simply the first prong of his two-prong attack on the United States — create domestic problems; create international problems.
Isn’t his Russian visa only good for one year, BTW? It may not be his option to move to another country. Heh!
nk (dbc370) — 12/17/2013 @ 12:22 pmit’s like every wrong decision is being made;
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/12/asa-issues-member-talking-points-to-counter-university-pushback-over-israel-boycott/
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 12:26 pmI don’t know why anyone has to feel like they need to characterize Snowden as a hero or traitor. It’s a pointless exercise because we’re all in the dark, including the US government, Greenwald and the courts. He could be either, neither, or, in varying degrees a hybrid of both depending on the context.
We can only comment on what has been released so far, otherwise we’re pissing away time. We know about PRISM, we know about mass collection of phone records, Angela Merkel, etc.
On those points, I’d say it was clear the government (Obama, Bush and the leadership in both parties) has misled the people as to what our rights are, broken international treaties.
We don’t know what else Snowden has seen, good or ill, but we know he didn’t dump it all willy nilly like Manning, so he is far more considerate of what he’s doing. The deals with rival nations might tick us off, but he doesn’t have a lot of options and it’s better than facing what Manning got.
Personally, I believe in the 4th Amendment right to privacy in pur papers and effects, but a security threat could trump that so the devil is in the details. I know both sides are proven liars, including the head of the NSA who just lied to America under oath, so as usual it’s a mixed bag of complex details….
Warren S. (1ba204) — 12/17/2013 @ 12:43 pmIs Kevin M a Truther? 🙂
I suppose that it’s too much to hope for that some harm comes to Mr Snowden while he is in Russia.
The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 12/17/2013 @ 1:16 pm==Comment by Warren S. (1ba204) — 12/17/2013 @ 12:43 pm–
Warren, your post was well thought out and you presented the complexities and incongruities that the Snowden case raises for many of us. We just don’t know.
elissa (57f24f) — 12/17/2013 @ 1:26 pmIs Kevin M a Truther?
Which Truth™?
Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/17/2013 @ 1:52 pmnobody better not hurt Mr. Snowden
first of all he is a very nice person and second of all he is fighting for our freedoms
he’s made tremendous sacrifices on our behalf already and will surely make many many more in the coming days
me I’m a pray for his safety
Dear God please don’t let nobody hurt Mr. Snowden and help him complete his work for so we all can breathe free again one day. Ok thanks.
happyfeet (c60db2) — 12/17/2013 @ 2:22 pmWe can definitely comment on that. For instance what the Guardian published about the Russian leadership comms. No doubt that information was of great interest to Putin. But leaking details of the NSA’s attempts to analyze Russian leadership communications isn’t in the US public’s interest, and it has nothing to do with internet or cell phone communications.
But besides what’s been released we also know how people have characterized what they’ve seen and haven’t released.
Including Snowden himself, who told the Guardian in his original interview in Hong Kong that the information he possessed would harm people. So why did he remove it from a secure environment?
And then there’s the editor in chief of the Guardian, who is quoted in the BBC article I linked to earlier telling Parliament:
So we know Snowden purloined legitimate foreign intelligence information. Unless of course one holds the truly bizarre opinion that the US should not collect intelligence in countries where US forces are or have been in harm’s way.
And we know that Snowden gave the Guardian the names of intelligence operatives who are at risk. That’s implied in my reference to Snowden’s comments to the Guardian that he didn’t want to release information that would harm people. But the Guardian’s Rusbridger was more revealing in his Parliamentary testimony.
That’s just one news source, the Guardian. Which doesn’t plan on publishing much more than the 1% of what its already published out of the 58,000 files in its posssession, according to what Rusbridger told Parliament earlier this month.
So it isn’t like we don’t have any sort of clue about what types of information Snowden took. And it’s quite obvious, apart from these revelations, that its of great interest to our adversaries. But if we can’t comment on how reporters have characterized what they’ve chosen not to publish, and we’re not just talking about the people at the Guardian, as if their characterizations of that information can’t be trusted then we also can’t comment on what they have published. Either you believe what these people say about what Snowden leaked to them or you don’t.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 2:24 pmSnowden should come back to the US, turn himself in, and explain he was exposing unconstitutional abuses against his country.
That would probably ruin his life, but what life does he have to look forward to? What he did could be construed as good, but he needs to take the consequences. He should demand a jury trial.
All this ‘I’ll trade secrets for my own welfare’ does not make me sympathetic. I understand the argument ‘he’s just doing what he needs to survive’, and reject it as not sufficient reason to give up secrets.
Dustin (e6111c) — 12/17/2013 @ 2:39 pmSnowden should be hanged, shot and then burned down. In that order.
Colonel Haiku (18cd23) — 12/17/2013 @ 2:58 pmPerhaps the people who committed the crimes Snowden reported should also pay the lawful consequences.
Dustin (e6111c) — 12/17/2013 @ 3:05 pmI agree, Dustin, and he would do that if he were an honorable man. Of course, if he were an honorable man, he could have done that to start with. After all, it appears he had already turned over his files to a foreign journalist. There was no reason for him to run, too.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 3:30 pmHaving said that, I think there is an argument he ran because the Obama Administration has declared war on whistleblowers. So there is a deficit of honor on both sides.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/17/2013 @ 3:31 pmWon’t disagree with that, Dustin. It’s on the record, so take care of Snowden’s sorry ass and then line the pretty perps up, all in a row.
Colonel Haiku (18cd23) — 12/17/2013 @ 3:34 pmIf Snowden is executed, then what will Charles (The Bad Charles Johnson)Johnson of LittleGreenFootballs.com have left to blog about ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 12/17/2013 @ 3:54 pmHe’ll have to resort to blogging about smooth jazz. Or cycling. Or Gay French Cinema. Or something.
Pretty much where I’m coming from.
This is typical of Snowden:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/code-name-verax-snowden-in-exchanges-with-post-reporter-made-clear-he-knew-risks/2013/06/09/c9a25b54-d14c-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html
Snowden contacted the WaPo’s Gellman as well as Greenwald and Poitras.
The idea that he had some altruistic motive to just tell the truth is simply not credible. He had a plan all along to steal secrets that had considerable financial value. The idea that some foreign government would pay good money for information about an NSA domestic spying program targeting US persons within the US is naive beyond belief.
Putin didn’t give Snowden asylum simply because he embarrassed the US. Putin gave him asylum because he views Snowden as commodity to be bought and sold. Exactly as Snowden attempted to present himself to whatever foreign embassy with which he wanted to make contact, using the WaPo to establish his bonafides.
Even more significantly he demanded guarantees that the WaPo would publish the entire powerpoint brief. The WaPo only published four of the slides. The Guardian only published five. If Snowden had had his way more information would have been made public than two newspaper’s thought decent. As Gellman later tweeted, some things need to remain secret.
http://twitchy.com/2013/06/10/there-are-things-that-should-remain-secret-washington-post-guardian-withhold-prism-slides/
But then, not if Snowden had his way. As is typical for Snowden, the vast bulk of the information he stole is not in the public interest. Somewhere between 90 and 99%, based upon what the WaPo and Guardian intend not to publish.
But it’s exactly what should remain secret that makes Snowden valuable to the countries in which he’s seeking refuge.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 3:58 pmSnowden should be given a guided tour of the nearest land-fill.
askeptic (2bb434) — 12/17/2013 @ 4:02 pmSnowden should be given tasty holiday treats and hugs – lots n lots of hugs!
happyfeet (c60db2) — 12/17/2013 @ 4:08 pmmister happy, if you want to hug a traitor to america, that’s something that you should consider adding to your match.com dating profile
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 12/17/2013 @ 4:12 pmThose CIA hit squads are not as impressive as the Bourne films led me to believe.
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 4:13 pmNot likely in Russia. American defectors simply die mysterious deaths at their safe houses.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/world/edward-lee-howard-50-spy-who-escaped-to-soviet-haven.html
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 4:19 pmLooking back Steve, it’s a wonder we had any secrets left, between Ames and Hansen, they left the cubbard bare, then Nicolson gave up the names of all the recruits he encountered at the Farm,
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 4:25 pmThere is also an argument to be made that Snowden has given Obama the ammunition he needs to legitimize a war on whistle blowers. Especially as Snowden raises his public profile…
…after originally telling interviewers he didn’t want attention.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position1
If he wants to avoid the media spotlight, releasing an open letter letter to the entire country of Brazil that somehow and not so mysteriously finds its way to the AP for publication indicates a poor grasp of the concept.
But then this isn’t the first time Snowden has said one thing, only to go on to do the exact opposite of what someone who meant what he said would do. If he wanted to see more “whistleblowers,” not less, he’d have kept a lower profile. It seems he can’t just disappear into the background. He craves the limelight.
Then there’s the information he has released. I think the people who claim his major revelations have been about the NSA’s domestic spying activities and invasions of privacy have short and/or selective memories.
Snowden says in his open letter to the entire nation of Brazil that:
No one who believes what Snowden just said would have released the entire 178 page “black budget” summary to the press. Anyone else besides me remember that?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/black-budget-summary-details-us-spy-networks-successes-failures-and-objectives/2013/08/29/7e57bb78-10ab-11e3-8cdd-bcdc09410972_story.html
So once again, why would someone steal a document and hand it over to newspapers that details how the entire US intelligence community performs against the goals established by the USG, the successes, failures, and objectives of those agency, and details about technology, agent recruiting and ongoing operations worldwide if that individual believes for an instant much if not most of that activity is legal and legitimate?
I’ll tell you why; that’s the kind of information the people he’s shopping himself around to will pay for. Not the NSA domestic spying activity.
As far as not releasing details, that didn’t last long at the WaPo:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/to-hunt-osama-bin-laden-satellites-watched-over-abbottabad-pakistan-and-navy-seals/2013/08/29/8d32c1d6-10d5-11e3-b4cb-fd7ce041d814_story.html
So, how does this square with Snowden’s oft professed goal of merely wanting to stop illegal, unconstitutional mass surveillance but not to interfere with “legal programs, legitimate spying?”
What details this budget doesn’t contain about ongoing operations is contained in the information he stole that makes him marketable. There is zero doubt about that.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 5:04 pm71. Vladimir Putin didn’t want giving asylum to Edward Lee Howard to be an issue between him and the United States, and he didn’t want to turn him over to the United States, because that would impact the way other double agents trusted Russia.
So he secretly killed him.
Howard defected when there was still Communism.
Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b) — 12/17/2013 @ 5:09 pman awkward situation all around;
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/16/syria-s-saudi-jihadist-problem.html
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 5:30 pmSteve, it is not inconceivable that Howard expired in those same woods that claimed “Riley, Ace of Spies” at the hands of Felix Dzerzhinsky’s Cheka almost a century ago.
askeptic (2bb434) — 12/17/2013 @ 5:33 pmso to sum up, we have one of Mustafa Setmarian’s top men, he planned the London and Madrid bombings, now Zawahiri’s delegate to the Syrian jihadists, and among the martyrs, the son of a Saudi General, this can’t possibly turn out badly
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 5:43 pmInteresing conjecture, I always thought he had been caught crossing in from Finland;
According to British intelligence documents released in 2000, Reilly was executed in a forest near Moscow on Wednesday November 5, 1925. According to eyewitness Boris Gudz, the execution of Sidney Reilly was supervised by an OGPU officer, Grigory Feduleev; another OGPU officer, George Syroezhkin, fired the final shot into Reilly’s chest. Gudz also confirmed that the order to kill Reilly came from Stalin directly. After Reilly’s death there were various rumors about his survival. Some, for example, speculated that Reilly had defected and became an adviser to Soviet intelligence.
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 5:48 pmSome of our foreign spying secrets were revealed. So what?
We have enemies in Pakistan but we have much worse enemies much closer to home… namely in Washington. The terrorists or the Russians aren’t going to invade us and turn us into a surveillance state where our every communication is monitored. They do not have that capability. They aren’t going to use the apparatus of power to stamp out the political opposition. They aren’t going to burn our foodstuffs for fuel. They aren’t going to flood across our borders and completely transform the country into something closer to what they are accustomed to. They aren’t going to set up a crony based economic system to drain us dry or implement a legal system with no real basis in our foundational principles.
Someone beat them to all of those things. Our spying on other countries is only justifiable to protect a legitimate entity that respects the rights that were enshrined in the Constitution we once had. Since our government is not complying with our Constitution and is violating our rights it has no legitimacy or right to exist. Thus we cannot justify our foreign actions either. Just like how the spying the Soviets did was wrong in perpetuation of the tyranny they had at home while ours was just even though it was constituted of the same acts, our foreign spying now can no longer be justified in furtherance of an oppressive government at home. You can’t protect something by destroying it.
Snowden had his priorities right. We are a fascist state now and someone had to do something besides sit on their ass and post on the internet. Good on him.
The fact that people are talking about what should be done with Snowden when the real problem is what should be done with the judges, bureaucrats and politicians who have abused us shows just how badly people are missing the point. Until enough of these people are hanging from trees to serve as a lesson to others none of us are safe. What happens to Snowden is of absolutely no consequence and will neither hurt nor help us in any significant way by comparison because what our spying was putatively supposed to prevent has already happened.
Thatch (0b86d9) — 12/17/2013 @ 6:59 pmSnowden should have went to Sen. Wyden. By law he would have to give him whistle blower status.
mg (31009b) — 12/17/2013 @ 7:02 pmThe turd is a traitor, who works for Putin.
Snowden had no business saying anything about foreign espionage. Zero, zilch, zip, nada, none. There is nothing illegal, unethical, or unpatriotic, in spying on foreign powers. When he did that, he showed his true colors.
And on that point, anybody who had a hand in hiring him, or vetting him, or had ever worked with him, had better have been put under a microscope. Maybe he did slip through the cracks and maybe “yeah, right, he slipped through the cracks”.
nk (dbc370) — 12/17/2013 @ 7:15 pmPardon and Medal of Freedom, stat.
Sam Paris (1cedb6) — 12/17/2013 @ 7:34 pmYou are actually serious with this pabulum? Which group of American citizens whose lives are protected by foreign intelligence gathering aren’t legitimate entities?
The SEALs on the Bin Laden Raid? The troops in Afghanistan? Or the agents whose lives he has jeopardized by releasing their names to the press?
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 7:49 pmI guess they’re just a bunch of suckers who deserve to be killed because they didn’t mutiny when this electorate was stupid enough to vote Obama into office. Twice.
Which would have gotten them killed or landed them in jail. A fate Snowden decided avoid and instead retire to a nice tropical paradise like Brazil. By selling them out to the highest bidder.
Snowden’s name really should be snowjob. He acted with far less integrity then the people he sold out. And he did sell people out. Yet you think Snowden’s the hero. The guy who’s in it entirely for himself.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:00 pm#81… what nk said.
Colonel Haiku (18cd23) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:03 pmEdward Snowden is the true meaning of christmas
happyfeet (8ce051) — 12/17/2013 @ 8:30 pmReal evil I think:
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2013/12/17/Snowden-document-shows-Norway-works-with-US-to-spy-on-Russia/UPI-35421387318218/#ixzz2nneS7Nyp
narciso (3fec35) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:41 pmOne of the local stations (KTTV, I think?) this morning was running with the teaser that faced with a winter in Russia, Snowden was looking for a warmer climate.
I immediately thought of Guantanamo Bay.
malclave (1db6c5) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:47 pmEdward Snowden is the true meaning of christmas
Not quite but you’re on the right track, happyfeet. http://i.imgur.com/Bp0y2gi.jpg
nk (dbc370) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:50 pmThere’s no way he can reliably return the stolen information, so there is not going to be a deal.
Well, there shouldn’t be a deal.
htom (412a17) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:17 pmThere is also an argument to be made that Snowden has given Obama the ammunition he needs to legitimize a war on whistle blowers
And won’t that be a joke, since Obama and his ilk have created the atmosphere where rabid anti-American fanatics like Nidal Hasan are given free reign until it’s too late.
Moreover, I’m now more apprehensive about the IRS and other government agencies, along with thugs into the “knockout” game (ie, garden-variety criminality), than I am about 9-11 or Boston-Marathon subversives.
We’re moving closer to the moment when we’ll be no better than what’s true of a typical citizen of Mexico, who proclaims: “Oh, I’m so worried about Islamic terrorists!” [while his head and limbs are lopped off by narco gangs, or his monies are seized by crooked cops, or he leads a meager existence while entrenched government officials live the high life].
Mark (58ea35) — 12/17/2013 @ 10:43 pmnarciso @87, it’s amazing how so much of Snowden’s leaks benefit Russia, isn’t it?
And by amazing, naturally I mean not really.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08-26/world/41446952_1_edward-snowden-snowden-s-russian-consulate
It doesn’t take much to see how this can all tie together. Alisher Usmanov owns Kommersant.
http://russianmind.com/content/alisher-usmanov-mysterious-oligarch-uzbekistan
It would be classic Putin to leak the fact that Snowden actually was at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong (and Snowden did say he wanted the WaPo’s help to authenticate his bonafides to the people at an undisclosed embassy, although there are only consulates in Hong Kong; see #66). Putin would enjoy rubbing Obama’s face in the fact that Snowden’s arrival in Moscow was really no surprise at all despite official statements to the contrary. Again, classic Putin. See his mocking NYT editorial to witness the dripping disdain he has for Obama.
In fact, it would simply be classic KGB to manufacture the public persona Snowden has been publicly operating under. Idealistic young American serves his country as NSA analyst. Becomes disillusioned by the American spy agency’s contempt for the Constitution and rule of law. Strikes a blow for internet freedom and personal privacy by leaking documents he joined Booze Allen to steal.
And flees to China, then onto Putin’s Russia?!? But of course, he was just a scared, idealistic young man working entirely alone and just doing what he had to do to survive. That’s the narrative, right.
It’s patently unbelievable, but that would appeal to Putin, too. That he could get Americans to believe the unbelievable, if only Snowden could steal just enough bait about NSA domestic spying to sucker the American public to believe the greatest NSA spy ever to flee to Russia is a true American hero.
Someone once asked Putin what skills he could have possibly have developed in the KGB that would qualify him to be the leader of Russia. He replied “working with people.” As a former KGB case officer, that phrase had a specific meaning. That meaning is more like “playing a fish.”
Not that I’m implying that Putin was personally running this operation. Just that he’s enjoying himself with it, now they’ve got their hands on Snowden and his treasure trove of information.
He’s probably never manipulated an entire country so thoroughly before.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:45 pmNo, whatever information Snowden stole is gone for good, and has been compromised. But if you think he wasn’t working alone then you’d want to get him back so you can plug all the leaks.
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/29/20234171-snowden-impersonated-nsa-officials-sources-say?lite
Snowden doesn’t strike me as particularly brilliant. And the NSA has and does still hire brilliant people for all sorts of jobs, and they don’t get you in trouble.
But of course, if I had information that led me to believe Snowden wasn’t capable of accessing all the information he stole all by his lonesome, I would never publicly say that.
This I don’t believe. The list of people who have access to the black budget has to be pretty short.
Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/18/2013 @ 12:18 amWhat old line, ‘if I voted for McCain, they told me,
narciso (3fec35) — 12/18/2013 @ 3:40 amreporters would be subpoenaed, CIA leakers would be be indicted’ turns out to be ironic, I pointed up the irony, that both his current home, and his prospective one, not to mention, that of his patron, Assuange, all look askance at civil liberties, it’s a Kang vs. Kodos thing.
Funny how this works out,
http://mato48.com/tag/saudi-arabia/
narciso (3fec35) — 12/18/2013 @ 3:54 amBrilliant video from hero Glenn Greenwald: ‘NSA’s goal is elimination of privacy worldwide’
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18.Comment by SPQR (768505) — 12/17/2013 @ 9:40 am
I’m still of the belief that Snowden is being run by the Russians or the Chinese and has been since before his revelations.
I don’t think it was exactly like that. He had some secret help, and maybe even knows something about it, but thinks anybody helping him was a fellow American equally troubled by what he saw.
In other words, Snowden is a useful idiot.
And what we hear now about him having more. I don’t think he has anything more, aside from what he encrypted and gave to Glenn Greenwald.
I think ths is disinformation.
Remember, the U.S. government has no idea what had access to. And they think he sometimes signeed in under otgher people’s names. That belief, by the way, would clear everybody else.
I think a greta part of the whole Snowden operation was to get some things out into the open, so if the NSA saw a change in behavior by some organizations, they would not suspect a spy or mole.
And now everything that anyody notices through changes in behavior will be attributed to Snowden – if the people in charge of counterintelligence are sufficiently idiotic.
Sammy Finkelman (dbe090) — 12/23/2013 @ 7:44 am95. Yes, Prince bandar wants Islamcists, who will make sure there is no democracy or elections or constitution guaranteeing liberties in Suria, and no let-up in hatred of Israel, but who will not support mnore than minimal terrorism or oppose Saudi Arabia.
Sammy Finkelman (dbe090) — 12/23/2013 @ 7:47 amComment by Steve57 (e607ae) — 12/17/2013 @ 11:45 pm
It would be classic Putin to leak the fact that Snowden actually was at the Russian consulate in Hong Kong
That’s probably just Putin clearing the decks for Olympics, just like his pardons. That he was at the Russian consulate is probably already known, so he let’s it become more public, so it can’t become a story later.
But Snowden probably never thought he is working for the Russians. In fact, according to #66 he’s got to prove to the foreign government that is the leaker.
(and Snowden did say he wanted the WaPo’s help to authenticate his bonafides to the people at an undisclosed embassy, although there are only consulates in Hong Kong; see #66).
That would show you Snowden’s relative ignorance.
Sammy Finkelman (dbe090) — 12/23/2013 @ 7:55 am