Patterico's Pontifications

12/12/2013

Crap Budget Deal Passes House 332-94; Boehner Votes Yes

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:59 pm

There really isn’t much to say. I am working on not getting upset by things like this, but it’s hard because the country is headed for a terrible economic crash, and it’s tough to watch everybody careen towards the cliff without making the slightest effort even to brake. But once you realize we’re going over the side, no matter what, you can work on not worrying about things you can’t change.

Nah. I can say stuff like this but I am still horribly angry and upset.

307 Responses to “Crap Budget Deal Passes House 332-94; Boehner Votes Yes”

  1. I’m with you. I have to not watch the news anymore because of what it does to my blood pressure. Not to mention what it does to my home life, being constantly pissed of and all.

    Easy Target (804124)

  2. Should we start a pool? What month will CPI see year over year double digit increases?

    Jim C (35d712)

  3. December 2014. What do I win?

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  4. Patterico–have you considered doing a post on the Ft. Worth “Affluenza” case?

    elissa (0c4f80)

  5. We are careening towards that cliff at 100 mph. One side says you are racist and uncaring if you don’t want to go over the cliff at 110 mph. The other side says 90mph is better. And anyone that suggests we should step on the brakes is vilified.

    JD (5c1832)

  6. Tough to pinpoint, huh? You know it’s coming (or at least I’m 90% certain). You just have no idea when. How about a dollar to be paid after CPI increases come back down to 2%?

    Jim C (35d712)

  7. I’m not upset. I’m strangely at peace. The GOP leaders have made it clear they think people like me are crazy and destructive, so I don’t have to support or vote for them anymore. It’s going to free up my time and money because the only people I plan to vote for are Ted Cruz and other Texans like him.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  8. December 2014. What do I win?

    Comment by Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 12/12/2013 @ 7:18 pm

    That is too easy. Once the November election is over, Obama will take all the stops out of his administration and try to force an uprising that he can use to declare martial law and make himself President for Life.

    Easy Target (804124)

  9. Y’all ought ta secede, DRJ.

    Colonel Haiku (2be95d)

  10. Easy Target:

    The problem with that is the same thing was said about every president since the 22nd Amendment was approved.

    Sorry, just saying.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  11. If Texas seceded, what would be left to stop the march of progressives?

    Texans are a giving people.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  12. Gotta find Republicans that can win right? Can’t go and pick Conservatives and try to win. Gotta find RINOs and win.

    Well, this is what you get.

    As I have said, job 1 is to purge the Party of the Liberals Republicans and instill the fear of God in the ones left.

    Rodney King's Spirit (11dcd5)

  13. I’m not sure the economic crash will be as bad as the slide in to tyranny. Maybe it will even help it in the sense that a better system arises.

    I agree with Murray Rothbard — repudiate the debt.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  14. “I’m not upset. I’m strangely at peace.”

    DRJ – I got tasty double chocolate fudge cake and nilla ice cream waiting for me. I will soon be very at peace as well.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  15. In the past 30 years I have been paying attention to politics, this is the first time I actually thought there was any chance of this being attempted. It seems to me that this administration has been turning up the heat under the skillet trying to provoke that frog into jumping. Lots of others feeling the same way. (Pass me my tin foil hat, please.)

    Considering the “Justice Department” has become a “Just Us” department run by extreme partisans and that the DHS has been providing military weapons to police forces throughout the country, yes, I am worried.

    The current ongoing purge of senior military officers, the changes being made to the oath sworn by military and government officials to swear allegiance to the president and the government, rather than to the people of the United States also does not bode well.

    I truly hope I am just being paranoid, but it is difficult to believe this considering all the evidence to the contrary.

    Easy Target (804124)

  16. You guys can tilt at windmills all you want. Me, I’m gonna start trying to get as much of your money as I can, while there’s still any to get, and while it still can buy me a six-pack and a lapdance.

    Diffus (4a5ca6)

  17. I have a very different view about this.

    Yes, the entire budget deal is a crap sandwich. But as a consequence of the 2012 elections, we’re all in a restaurant where crap sandwiches are the ONLY thing on the menu.

    This budget deal preserves 92% of the sequester cuts while undoing some of its most pernicious effects on our military preparedness. The alternative is not a better bill that cuts spending more aggressively, much less a bill that cuts entitlements meaningfully. The alternative is another government shutdown.

    Which, politically, benefits the Dems. Again, look to the calendar: How can the GOP screw up their current political advantages that flow from Obamacare and other debacles on Obama’s watch? The most likely scenario for such a screwup is another government shutdown.

    Paul Ryan has concocted the least worst crap sandwich, one which gives us the GOP the best chance to achieve meaningful reforms in the middle and long term — AFTER retaking the Senate in the 2014 elections and the White House in the 2016 elections. For that to happen, we have to win those elections. Shutting down the government again is not the way to do that.

    Ryan’s not cutting off our conservative noses to spite our faces. Focusing not on rhetoric, but on legislative results actually capable of being enacted into law and signed by the POTUS, he’s actually LEADING — which none of the conservative legislators or talking heads opposing this deal are doing. That he can’t lead us to a complete victory over our foes before those future elections is the necessary consequence of the 2012 elections, and cannot be changed no matter how long we hold our breath and stamp our feet while this Congress is in session. Out-negotiating the likes of Patty Murray around the edges is the best that can be done, and it’s better than nothing, and certainly better than the alternative.

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  18. Members of the military swear allegiance to the Constitution, not the Commander in Chief. The 22nd Amendment is part of the Constitution.

    “I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.”

    Unless the military goes rogue for our President, I don’t think there really is anything to worry about. The NSA may have information, but it is sorely lacking in gunpowder.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  19. I’m all for six-packs, but my wife frowns upon lap dances by strangers.

    It’s kind of like that pledge that soldiers take. For some strange reason she treats wedding vows the same as the Constitution.

    For the middle class.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  20. “Texans are a giving people.

    Comment by Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 12/12/2013 @ 7:32 pm

    Boy howdy! Y’all handing out them lethal injections up there at Huntsville like it was some damn Halloween candy!

    Colonel Haiku (b3b184)

  21. Beldar, I agree with what you’re saying. However, I am a bit more pessimistic. I understand people being duped by Obama in 2008. They were fooled into thinking he would unite the country. However, that curtain was quickly opened to reveal his true intentions. He was then re-elected. The American people spoke. They want free stuff and won’t stop demanding it until the country goes off a cliff. I have no faith that 2014 or 2016 will be any different. This new deal is just a reminder that the American people are driving themselves to ruin. Anyone who tries to get in the way of this will be shown the door.

    Jim C (35d712)

  22. Colonel:

    Ron White said something like Texas doesn’t have a death row, it has an express lane.

    Unfortunately, we also have a legacy of overzealous prosecutors from both sides of the aisle.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  23. Nah. I can say stuff like this but I am still horribly angry and upset.

    Patterico, I recall your saying awhile back that your wife is a liberal and one would presume she therefore votes like a typical Democrat, meaning she favors mainly liberals/Democrats and liberal ideas and policies. Polls indicate that a high percentage of self-identifying liberals do, in fact, adhere to rather stereotypical opinions.

    I mention that only because when I see the mess this nation is stuck in, I think of all the left-leaning people out there, found around most of us — our family members, friends, acquaintances, neighbors, colleagues, pastors, etc — and say they deserve as much, if not most, of the blame. It’s their voting patterns and attitudes that have created and fostered crud like Obama or the budgets greatly influenced by leftists like him.

    We have met the enemy, and he is us.

    Mark (58ea35)

  24. Mark do you have a memory problem? Did not our host previously ask you to please leave his wife’s politics out of your comments?

    elissa (0c4f80)

  25. Members of the military swear allegiance to the Constitution, not the Commander in Chief. The 22nd Amendment is part of the Constitution.

    Comment by Ag80 (eb6ffa)

    You are correct, sir. I was thinking about two related stories, Air Force dropping “Under God” from their oath and Missouri Senate being sworn in pledging to protect government, and got my story mixed up.

    Unless the military goes rogue for our President, I don’t think there really is anything to worry about. The NSA may have information, but it is sorely lacking in gunpowder.

    Comment by Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 12/12/2013 @ 8:15 pm

    You don’t have to have “the military” going rogue, you just need to have the senior officers willing to take the orders Obama issues.

    Enlisted personnel are routinely told that orders handed down to them are to be considered legitimate because that is what officers are for. If they are illegal orders, the officers will not pass them on.

    Yes, they are also told that they must not obey illegal orders. Sort of a catch 22 in that you are strongly discouraged from questioning orders but also required to question orders. In most cases, enlisted people will follow the orders passed down to them. History shows this to be the case as well as oft repeated psychological tests conducted by many universities.

    “According to Medal of Honor recipient and retired Army Maj. Gen. Patrick Brady, another motive is “emasculating the military,” noting that Obama “will fire anyone who disagrees with him” on certain political and social issues.

    Among the most vocal critics of the approximately 200 firings during the Obama presidency, retired Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin said the “problem is worse than we have ever seen.” Furthermore, he explained that enlisted men and women are afforded little room to criticize the direction of the military.”

    Soldiers Slam Obama’s Military Purge

    Easy Target (804124)

  26. Did not our host previously ask you to please leave his wife’s politics out of your comments?

    If he did, then he illustrates why so many people (certainly if they themselves are not of the left or big squishes) are in denial about the one crucial factor — the one fundamental flaw — that’s behind the increasingly leftward tilt of this and various other nations. The lack of plainspeak and candor about liberal biases — and what they’re all about, and how corrupting, dishonest and ironic they can be — and various people’s discomfort in dealing with those biases in mixed company (as I’ve observed through the years) are at the crux of the problem.

    Mark (58ea35)

  27. retired Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin said the “problem is worse than we have ever seen.”

    The story of Nidal Hasan was a preview or hint of that — was like glimpsing the tip of the iceberg — a few years ago.

    Mark (58ea35)

  28. Not very productive or constructive criticism there. Sounds like just a case of butt-hurt. It is usually survivable.

    But what was the alternative deal Democrats could accept? They were pushing for more spending and also the extension of unemployment bennies, which is now broken for the first time since the recession hit.

    What is it you think would be a better deal that might have been reached? Sequester? Well, Democrats would happlily change the subject and let us shut down the government again.

    If you wanted sequester in place you should have supported Boehner in September when he was trying to pass the “clean CR” that would have kept sequester in place for a year, changing baselines from now on, and which Reid and Obama had said they would accept.

    Instead you threw in with the fast talking boy with the slicked back hair and he sold you a bill of goods about “defunding” as if Harry Reid was going to have a change of heart just because conservatives really really wanted him to!

    Now that Cruz had his way with you and is off with his 1.5 million name database saying “Well we never expected it to work” and laughing at you over a beer, you wish you had the sequester Boehner recommended, but blame Boehner because you don’t?

    BOTTOM LINE: If you can’t offer an alternative that would have been achievable with the current Senate leadership, what the heck are you crying about?

    Estragon (19fa04)

  29. Y’all handing out them lethal injections up there at Huntsville like it was some damn Halloween candy!

    and y’all didn’t get the memo that some folks just need killing.

    take, for instance, Failifornia’s Death Row.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  30. Unless the military goes rogue for our President, I don’t think there really is anything to worry about. The NSA may have information, but it is sorely lacking in gunpowder.

    Delusional. Almost all of the military will obey orders as it always does.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  31. Enlisted personnel are routinely told that orders handed down to them are to be considered legitimate because that is what officers are for. If they are illegal orders, the officers will not pass them on.

    Really?

    that wasn’t in any block of training i ever received, ’cause i sure as hell would have grilled the instructor for details if i had. i ‘member being told, over & over, that it was everyone’s responsibility to worry about it, but that it had to exercised carefully, since UCMJ would apply to you if you were wrong. my take is that a big chicken dinner is a fair trade for a clear conscience.

    besides, from personal experience, the vast majority of officers are in uniform so that there are bodies available to go to meetings & sign for sh1t while everyone else actually w*rks. 8-)

    i can’t even begin to imagine asking most of the brass i ever served with for a legal opinion on anything, let alone constitutional law & the rights of man. (Col. Kurt Schlicter being the instant exception, for obvious reasons.) hell, most of them were utterly confused by just a topo map & a magnetic compass, so ima bother them with that? might as well ask my cat: at least he can find his way back home.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  32. Almost all of the military will obey orders as it always does.

    but which orders if there’s more than one set?

    what if someone says “No.”?

    what if someone screws up the transmission, or trashes commo altogether?

    what if you call up the Guard/Reserves & not everyone shows up?

    better yet, what if they show up, draw gear, vehicles, weapons, ammo, etc, get their orders and say…. “Naw, i don’t think so…”

    now what?

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  33. They know what side their bread is buttered on.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  34. Comment by Beldar (8ff56a) — 12/12/2013 @ 8:09 pm

    What he said.

    Seriously, those of you who are disappointed need to consider that we lost the 2012 election and we don’t have the political power to halt this crap. All we can do is hold our breath and turn blue and otherwise throw a tantrum. I wish to God that it wasn’t so, but all of our energies need to be electing people to Congress who — if they have the power — are willing to take drastic action.

    Because if we have 58 Senators and 60% of the House and none of this namby-pamby filibuster stuff any more, we can make things happen. And if the election goes that badly for the Democrats, Obama’s vetoes will be overridden by very scared Dems.

    Let them sit there with their precious ACA and burn with it.

    Kevin M (536c5d)

  35. I’d like to point out that the budget was balanced in the mid 90′s without electing a Republican President. The first shot was the Perot movement, which demanded a balanced budget and got 19% to say “I’d rather vote for the crazy man than either major party.” And the coup de grace was Gingrich’s triumph in 1994, taking back the House for the first time in 40 years.

    In the next few years, they (and Clinton) balanced the budget, reformed welfare and terminated most farm subsidies. Note that two of those things were undone by the next Republican in office.

    We can’t wait for 2016. It’s 2014 or bust.

    Kevin M (536c5d)

  36. Reagan, my childhood hero, is the one who seriously started to mess things up.

    In the spring of 1981, conservative Republicans in the House of Representatives cried. They cried because, in the first flush of the Reagan Revolution that was supposed to bring drastic cuts in taxes and government spending, as well as a balanced budget, they were being asked by the White House and their own leadership to vote for an increase in the statutory limit on the federal public debt, which was then scraping the legal ceiling of $1 trillion. They cried because all of their lives they had voted against an increase in public debt, and now they were being asked, by their own party and their own movement, to violate their lifelong principles. The White House and its leadership assured them that this breach in principle would be their last: that it was necessary for one last increase in the debt limit to give President Reagan a chance to bring about a balanced budget and to begin to reduce the debt. Many of these Republicans tearfully announced that they were taking this fateful step because they deeply trusted their president, who would not let them down.

    Famous last words. In a sense, the Reagan handlers were right: there were no more tears, no more complaints, because the principles themselves were quickly forgotten, swept into the dustbin of history. Deficits and the public debt have piled up mountainously since then ….

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  37. that wasn’t in any block of training i ever received, ’cause i sure as hell would have grilled the instructor for details if i had. i ‘member being told, over & over, that it was everyone’s responsibility to worry about it, but that it had to exercised carefully, since UCMJ would apply to you if you were wrong. my take is that a big chicken dinner is a fair trade for a clear conscience.
    Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e)

    That sounds like the training I received also. The reality was that almost nobody that I served with would have questioned an order to fire on their own countrymen. Never saw a bigger group of sheep waiting to be told what to do. I was Navy from 83 – 91. With rare exceptions, most of the people I knew aboard ship would not have been willing to risk a BCD over something as minor as principles or moral values. Right v wrong? Which gets me liberty (time off) sooner.

    Enlisted people are officially trained to only follow “lawful orders” but in reality, it is drummed into our heads that to fail to obey an order is a career ending move. As one Lt. Cmdr. told me, if you are given a questionable order, obey it and take it up with the chain of command later. Sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

    I just hope that enough men and women understand that they really are the last defense of our country and that their choices of whether or not to follow illegal orders will determine the outcome of what many of us think is coming our way.

    As for me, I believe that the oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, still is binding no matter how many years I have been out of the military.

    That is why I agree with the TEA party groups to try and get conservative principles back into our government. Seems the Republicans don’t really believe in fiscal conservatism any more.

    Easy Target (804124)

  38. I think the U.S.A. is going to be put up for auction by the elected nitwits.

    mg (31009b)

  39. That sounds like the training I received also. The reality was that almost nobody that I served with would have questioned an order to fire on their own countrymen. Never saw a bigger group of sheep waiting to be told what to do.

    That’s exactly how people are.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  40. Can I get a quarter, bet a half, bet a quarter, bet a half, sold for fitty cents.

    mg (31009b)

  41. This budget deal will open the doors for crony capitalists to fix the primary elections. The elite g.o.p. will bring in the illegals to vote for team republican. About time activists get active.

    mg (31009b)

  42. I thought Ryan was a good guy, and I am hoping Beldar is correct.
    We do have the problem of so many scandals and disasters that it all turns into background noise.
    I think policy and governing needs to take precedence over politics, but politics can not be ignored.
    If the budget deal manages to avoid a political win by Obama and co. about “those obstructionist repubs”, then maybe it will be ok
    because as long as Obama is President and the senate belongs to the Dems, all we are going to get are shades of disaster.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  43. If the military receives any orders during an illegal takeover of the government, it will be to stay in their barracks. Nobody is going to trust the low-hanging fruit with carrying out anything that important. Any suppression of resistance by the US population will be done by the various police/”law enforcement” agencies, of which we have no shortage, and who are properly trained and have IQs over 90 (but not too much over). See this. http://i.imgur.com/ROFSNdx.gif

    nk (dbc370)

  44. 45- Black-clad Ninja acrobats!

    The question is, what do they do with the “follow car” – particularly if it’s a Suburban, or F-350?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  45. If it’s made after 2004, they will use its Navstar system to disable its computer and shut down the engine and everything electric including the doorlocks. Or disable its brakes and accelerate it until it crashes.

    Don’t quote me on this, I just made it up. ;)

    nk (dbc370)

  46. Since I have you here askeptic, what should I pay for a Tokarev in 7.63, just plain shooter no collector value? I’d rather one without the afterthought thumb safety — are those cheaper or more expensive?

    nk (dbc370)

  47. The current crop of Republican leaders reminds me of a football team who keeps telling the opposition, “Okay, we’ll let you have the next ten yards but that’s it!” while simultanously telling the crowd of onlookers, “Don’t worry, we’ll stop ‘em on the next play!” It’s pretty hard to win a game, or even keep people rooting for you, with that strategy.

    PPs43 (0112e8)

  48. ROGER SIMON: Mr. Ryan’s Dilemma. “Let’s stipulate this: No conservative or libertarian is going to get what he or she wants on government spending — or even anything remotely close to it — without winning the Senate in 2014 and the presidency two years later. Barring mass lobotomies, it ain’t gonna happen — not with Barack Obama and Harry Reid standing in the way. You have to get rid of these people first. The good news is, as of this moment — thanks to the Obamacare fiasco that will likely continue for some time, even get worse, and, to a lesser extent, the Iran deal that, in all probability, is headed for disaster — things are running in the right’s direction. What Ryan quite obviously was trying to do is keep it that way — tread some water until we have at least the first of those elections (2014). He was following Hippocrates’ prescription to do no harm.”

    Colonel Haiku (80dd71)

  49. Two things have to be kept in mind that both symbolically and attitudinally give the liberals/Democrats more of an upper hand than they deserve:

    Opinion polls that indicated a substantial percentage of the American public blamed Republicans — and not Democrats — for the recent sequester, and a substantial percentage of that same public blame George W Bush and not Obama for ongoing economic problems, even 5 years later.

    If this nation is becoming a banana republic and Euro-sclerosis type of joke, than the onus of responsibility fall on the shoulders of many of our fellow citizens.

    Mark (58ea35)

  50. 18. “This budget deal preserves 92% of the sequester cuts”

    I would be interested to see the computations here done in something resembling math from the public domain.

    The sequester cap was $967 Billion for 2014 and now spending will be $1,012 Billion.

    So $45 Billion is 8% of the sequester? Therefore sans sequester the spending would have been $1,650 Billion?

    From a Liberal source:

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederalbudget/p/Discretionary.htm

    FY 2012 $1,285 Billion spent. FY 2013 $1,258 Billion. Proposed, prior to deal, FY 2014 $1,242 Billion, and/or prior to sequester?

    45/275 = 16.4%, which seems more plausible.

    A little help here?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  51. 50. Well forget 2014, overriding a veto ain’t gonna happen.

    And 2016 is just pie in the sky. I could see conservatives flopping for Walker but the Lamestream would absolutely birth a cow.

    So conservatives won’t get anything like what they want. So moderates won’t get anything like they say they can deliver.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  52. 13. For once I not only agree, but it is the choice every one is headed for, inexorably.

    The Debt, in any of its sundry shapes or forms, cannot be met.

    Today Detroit, tomorrow Chicago, ad infinitum.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  53. If the military receives any orders during an illegal takeover of the government, it will be to stay in their barracks. Nobody is going to trust the low-hanging fruit with carrying out anything that important. Any suppression of resistance by the US population will be done by the various police/”law enforcement” agencies, of which we have no shortage, and who are properly trained and have IQs over 90 (but not too much over).

    What are you talking about? No one has to do an “illegal” takeover of government. They’re there. The problem is the government itself is out of control.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  54. It’s not my stupid, paranoid fantasy, it’s your and Easy Target’s stupid, paranoid fantasy. Send me a copy of the script next time.

    nk (dbc370)

  55. I agree with your point about the cops and the militarized police forces, however.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  56. 55. Let’s assume that Beldar is substantially correct, that Ryan’s ‘deal’ is a wily save of 84%, or whatever, of the squeester cuts.

    That this and keeping their head down is the Whigs best hope, losing ground today may mean gaining ground 11 or 13 or 23 months from now.

    This current war with conservatives will blow over, getting them mad is a lesser risk than inciting the MFM. In fact taking it to conservatives will entice support.

    In the meantime, mandatory spending is growing beyond the exponential.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  57. 53… More Chicken Little…

    Colonel Haiku (8be552)

  58. Perhaps a little humility is required?

    Colonel Haiku (8be552)

  59. 60. Lay back and enjoy?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  60. 48- Have not dealt in Tok’s at all, and it is not an item I keep up on. My personal preference in that caliber was the CZ-52.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  61. 62- …more….
    You might check this website for more info.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  62. Thanks, askeptic. Looks like a good deal.

    nk (dbc370)

  63. Well forget 2014, overriding a veto ain’t gonna happen.

    Why not? Presidents have had vetoes overridden time and again. Especially weak Presidents.

    Kevin M (536c5d)

  64. This bears repeating: Nixon would have been convicted and removed from office despite having 43 Republicans in the Senate.

    Anything is possible if the man is weak enough.

    Kevin M (536c5d)

  65. 66- When you’ve lost the “Conscience of a Conservative” in the Senate, your fate is sealed if you’re a Dick Nixon.
    I don’t think there are that many (or even enough) Leftists in the Senate ready to walk away from The LightWorker.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  66. 2.Comment by Jim C (35d712) — 12/12/2013 @ 7:12 pm

    Should we start a pool? What month will CPI see year over year double digit increases?

    Not in 2014. To see double digit CPI increases, the Federal Reserve Board must first “fight inflation” (like it did in 1980) and it has no intention of doing so in the next twelve months.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae)

  67. the country is headed for a terrible economic crash

    No it isn;t.

    But if you wanbt to say that maybe it is, the cause would be higher interest rates.

    The remedy, for the government, would entail be a bigger deficit – rolling ove rthe debt to longer maturities, which would involve paying more now to guarantee that it won’t be too much later.

    So long as Barack Obvama keeps on appointing the same kind of people to the Federal Reserve Board we will be OK.

    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-11/how-stanley-fischer-became-a-central-banking-legend-before-joining-the-fed

    Fischer does seem to think there can come a point where interest rates should go back up.

    That is a big problem because of the size of the debt. The trouble will come from any change in policy with regard to interest rates.

    After causing a recession the rates will have to come back down.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae)

  68. Higher Interest Rates….

    Would a doubling of the discount rate do it?
    Of course, that’s going from 0.25% to 0.50%,
    how severe of a jolt would that be?

    In 1978 I bought a condo in SoCal, and received a very favorable (insider) mortgage: 9.75%!
    Would a return to those rates (and two years later I could have cleaned up transferring that mortgage to a buyer as the new rates were over 12%) bring back the inflation we saw at that time?
    Do the rates drive inflation, or does the inflation drive the rates?
    Chicken – Egg?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  69. 60. Lay back and enjoy?

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 12/13/2013 @ 9:07 am

    Hey, you’re the fella who insists disaster is inevitable and just around the next corner so get yer lube on and get your cookie.

    Colonel Haiku (8be552)

  70. Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 12/13/2013 @ 10:49 am

    Do the rates drive inflation, or does the inflation drive the rates?
    Chicken – Egg?

    I’m convinced it is rates that drive inflation and not vice versa – and the people “fighting inflation” always thought they started to fight it, justa little bit too late.

    Now perception of future short term interest rates cause longer term interest artes to go up.

    But no matetr what, nobody can fight the Fed.

    Of copusre things are more complicated. In the 1940′s theer were very low interest rates – and inflation. Other things can cause inflation but a rise in the price of money is almost guaranteed to do so.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae)

  71. Does Harry Reid know about this, or even care?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  72. <I. Would a doubling of the discount rate do it?
    Of course, that’s going from 0.25% to 0.50%,
    how severe of a jolt would that be?

    That’s nothing..

    It’s been proosed that the Fed, instead of paying .25% on fractional reserves, should charge .25% That might induice banks to lend money.

    One problem is that money must be lent – and teh total amount outstanding must go up – but it should be where there is a very high probability of the loan being paid back – that is, sound loans.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae)

  73. 73. Harry Reid probably knows and cares – and hopes as few people as possible in Nevada know or care.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb3ae)

  74. But…but….in the words of Party-member Kulaks:
    If Comrade Stalin knew, he would stop this!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  75. 70 & 6: Interest Rates and the CPI.

    http://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/prime-rate.aspx

    Doubling the overnight bank-to-bank discount rate should directly raise the prime rate.

    Unfortunately, the velocity of money will take a dive too since there is no demand for loans and no bank cares to loan money when the risk far exceeds their return.

    The IOER currently stands at 0.25%, the rate the Fed is paying on the reserves it ‘forced’ banks to ‘hold’ for all those subprime housing loans it ate, and is continuing to eat.

    Its possible with that and the new Volcker rules on profiting from reserves may slow the collapse of credit. But as 70% of this economy is consumer spending we could miss the improvement.

    The CPI, indeed all of government supplied data, by which businesses and investors risk their filthy lucre has become, over a quarter century, a total fraud. For instance the CPI is now 40% Housing costs–which is supposed to indirectly indicate rental costs. Energy and food have fallen in weight in the computation to negligible representation of homeowner purchases.

    Ostensibly this was done to remove volatility but really it was done to reduce government expenditures on entitlement spending.

    This means everyone with money is flying blind, hence the broken markets.

    Currently, businesses forecasts to investors are, relative to their recent performance, are the bleakest in history.

    Where everyone’s money gonna go is a mystery to me, but housing has peaked, commodities seem doomed. Look for property and businesses, at least, to be bid up in prices over the mid-term.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  76. 71. And of course, the rejoinder must be ‘When’.

    Zero Hedge today says that the domestic savings rate critically determines when Japan crumbles and blows away in the wind.

    That drop dead date, the story gives, as no later than 2024.

    A second story details how the German/Japanese trade engines will crush France, Spain and Italy before Japan collapses.

    Working backword like this I leave to the interested reader, but my lazy azz guess is Ogabe will get his wish and 2015 will be a very bad year.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  77. Beldar,

    i will stipulate that Ryan likely got the best deal he could, under the circumstances. I also think we (Americans, not just Republicans) have to hold on by our fingernails until we can hopefully elect more responsible leaders.

    My problem is the unnecessary demonization by Boehner and other Republicans of Tea Party supporters. Do they really think Boehner has a Republican majority despite the Tea Party, because I think he’s Majority Leader because of 2010 and the grassroots support from countless Tea Party groups. Shame on them, and I’m through with supporting them.

    PS to Col — I wish.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  78. ROGER SIMON: Mr. Ryan’s Dilemma. “Let’s stipulate this: No conservative or libertarian is going to get what he or she wants on government spending — or even anything remotely close to it — without winning the Senate in 2014 and the presidency two years later. Barring mass lobotomies, it ain’t gonna happen — not with Barack Obama and Harry Reid standing in the way. You have to get rid of these people first. The good news is, as of this moment — thanks to the Obamacare fiasco that will likely continue for some time, even get worse, and, to a lesser extent, the Iran deal that, in all probability, is headed for disaster — things are running in the right’s direction. What Ryan quite obviously was trying to do is keep it that way — tread some water until we have at least the first of those elections (2014). He was following Hippocrates’ prescription to do no harm.”

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (80dd71) — 12/13/2013 @ 7:25 am
    ————————-

    Spot on.
    Unfortunately, there’s a brigade of conservatives (led by Mark Levin and Sean Hannity) who sincerely believe that if they invoke a stalemate which results in shutting down the government again, THAT will actually elicit Barack Obama and Hairy Reed to have an epiphany.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  79. Yes, vote for a bad deal, so people can be confident you will pick a good one, how does that work again,

    the left is working 24/7 to strip this country down to the bone, how about we don’t cooperate,

    narciso (3fec35)

  80. This bears repeating: Nixon would have been convicted and removed from office despite having 43 Republicans in the Senate.

    Anything is possible if the man is weak enough.

    Comment by Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/13/2013 @ 10:02 am

    Completely missing the point.

    Those were Republican senators. They play by stricter rules.

    If not because they are committed to them, because their base is. Expecting Democrat senators in this day and age to play by the same strict rules is madness.

    Former Conservative (105295)

  81. ==My problem is the unnecessary demonization by Boehner and other Republicans of Tea Party supporters. Do they really think Boehner has a Republican majority despite the Tea Party, because I think he’s Majority Leader because of 2010 and the grassroots support from countless Tea Party groups==

    I know you’re aware of this but an awful lot of politics is pure manufactured theatre on both sides of the aisle. I think the R’s of all varieties who are actually in congress get along a lot better and realize they have much more in common than they sometimes pretend to even during contentious votes. I would take much of the “Republican civil war bluster” as candidates and soon to be candidates preening and performing for their home state media and hometown electorate. Hannity and Levin are fascinating individuals and often make very good points. I don’t consider them the final word on right-leaning politics and strategy, though.

    elissa (a981fa)

  82. Team R has needed new leadership for a long time

    boehner mcconnell priebus ryan cantor and meghan’s coward daddy are old stale and confused

    plus at least one of them was perma-brainwashed by his vietnamese captors to act against the interests of his home country

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  83. DRJ, I think Boehner lost his temper and vented in public, and I don’t think that was productive.

    In fairness, however, he’s taken about 50 brickbats from fellow Republicans for every one he’s thrown.

    The Senate filibuster is a walking corpse: The question is not whether it will be abolished altogether (even for regular legislation, despite the Dems’ claim that their use of the nuclear option was limited to non-SCOTUS presidential appointments), but only when and which party actually pulls the plug.

    That’s bad news for conservatives in the long term, because it will eliminate the Senate’s traditional “saucer” function to “cool the hot coffee from the House.” But between now and January 2015 it will make party unity in the House even more important than it’s ever been, because the House’s power to block the Senate and WH will become increasingly important as the Dems can win every vote on party lines.

    There’s going to be another opportunity for education (some will say grand-standing) and rallying the base when we get to the next debt ceiling fight during the coming year. But the consequences there aren’t quite as suicidal for the GOP if it stands firm — which may in turn give GOP negotiators more leverage than they had in the negotiations just concluded.

    We’ve dodged a bullet by avoiding another shutdown, and that’s the bottom bottom-line.

    And although the results are modest at best (especially after disregarding supposed spending cuts more than two years out, which I do), this deal also included some very significant silver linings. The most important of them is that it finally ended the string of extensions of unemployment benefits. But the COLA adjustments for federal pensioners (including, yes, some military pensioners) is another important step that can be a useful precedent in future negotiations and related public education/arguments.

    Give me the choice whether to back Paul Ryan or Patty Murray in a high-stakes poker game, and I’ll pick Ryan every single time. Patty Murray is among the dullest tools in the Dems’ shed. The final vote tally in the House reflects, I think, a deep and genuine respect for Ryan among the House GOP members. I know some conservatives, and some commenters here, are so disgusted with Congress and the GOP leadership in general that they’ll view this literal vote of confidence in Ryan as a black mark against him. But in terms of actual results achieved, he’s the only guy from our team who’s putting any points on the board at all. What the out-of-joint conservatives are really angry about, I’d submit, is the continuing consequences of the 2012 election. Boycotting and staying home is only going to make that failure more likely to recur.

    In the words of Ben Franklin during the aftermath of the first Tea Party: “We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  84. My problem is the unnecessary demonization by Boehner and other Republicans of Tea Party supporters.
    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/13/2013 @ 1:31 pm
    True that, preach it sister!!

    an awful lot of politics is pure manufactured theatre
    Comment by elissa (a981fa) — 12/13/2013 @ 2:44 pm

    Also true,
    but some of us are sick and tired of manufactured theatre and want people who say what they mean and mean what they say.
    Now, sometimes you may say it louder or softer, strident or mellow,
    but when you say supposed colleagues have lost all of their credibility (or what ever it was exactly as he said), that is beyond what I can accept.

    If some think shutting down the government again is a bad idea, let them say that and blame the Dems for making things so bad that it is worth considering.

    As in, perhaps, “I didn’t like the strategy of shutting down government, but I guess that Cruz had a point when he wanted to stop this ObamaCare thing before it had a chance to do what it is doing.”

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  85. Mr. Gulrud and others: I ought to have sourced the 92% figure I used above. It’s from Paul Ryan’s public statement on the deal:

    How do we cut spending [in this bill that's just passed the House]? First, we eliminate waste. We stop paying Medicaid bills that dead-beat dads should cover. That alone is a $1.4 billion cut. We stop sending unemployment checks to criminals. And we stop sending government checks to dead people. There’s no reason to tolerate fraud.

    Second, we cut corporate welfare. For instance, we repeal a government research program for private energy companies. A profitable industry shouldn’t rely on taxpayers to pay for its research.

    Third, we make real reforms to the real problem: autopilot spending. The federal government makes trillions of dollars in empty promises to retirees. And these empty promises don’t only drive the national debt; they threaten these retirees’ security. We don’t solve all these problems, but we make a good start: We make sensible reforms to federal-employee and military-retirement programs.

    We ask new federal employees to contribute a little bit more to their retirement, so taxpayers don’t have to pick up the full tab. And for younger military retirees, we trim their cost-of-living adjustments just a bit. It’s a modest reform for working-age military retirees, many of whom have second careers after leaving the armed forces.

    Finally, we don’t think taxpayers should have to bail out private companies’ pension benefits. So we ask these companies to cover more of the cost of guaranteeing their benefits. That will protect taxpayers and save $7.9 billion.

    These are real cuts that will become law immediately. If we pass this bill, we’ll eliminate waste — right now. We’ll cut corporate welfare — right now. And new government employees will start paying a fairer share. These savings will build up over time. But they will be even greater than what we’d save by doing nothing. That’s why this is a good deal.

    We haven’t squandered the gains from the Budget Control Act. We build on them. Our agreement preserves 92 percent of the sequester cuts — even though Democrats wanted none of them. We don’t get rid of this fiscal discipline — we get more and do so in a smarter way.

    I haven’t checked his math, but it’s certainly appropriate for me to provide this link to my source. Obviously he’s putting the best face on the spending cuts, and in particular the assertion that “these savings will build up over time” depends entirely on what future Congresses do or don’t do (which in turn depends on future election results). But that’s no more unrealistic than the conservatives who’ve been wailing and gnashing their teeth over the changes to the sequester: their arguments inevitably assume that no future Congress would undo the sequester, and as Ryan points out earlier in this same press release, that’s exactly the opposite of both parties’ confident assumptions when the sequester was first passed as a fall-back in case the super-committee couldn’t agree on sufficient cuts.

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  86. ==but when you say supposed colleagues have lost all of their credibility (or what ever it was exactly as he said), that is beyond what I can accept.==

    MD in Philly–I can tell you feel strongly about this and I respect that. I agree that losing his temper was not helpful. Is calling the Republican Speaker of the House and third in line of Presidential Succession a “RINO” (Republican in Name Only) and a “traitor” something you can accept?. Is one OK but not the other?

    elissa (0c4f80)

  87. Comment by narciso (3fec35)

    Does McCain taking this position really surprise anyone?

    Easy Target (804124)

  88. They promised us a return to regular order. Ryan said he had to ditch the rest of the members of the conference committee in order to cut a closed door deal in order to return to regular order. Anybody believe that will ever happen?

    crazy (d60cb0)

  89. This deal is a done deal. Obama has already said he’ll sign it. There will be posturing on Monday, perhaps spilling into Tuesday, over the Senate vote. My home-state junior senator, Ted Cruz, will probably be among the most vocal opponents, and I’m fine with that. He’s a magnet for the cameras right now (which is also certainly something he’s aware of), and this is another educational opportunity.

    But if Sen. Cruz or others try to mount a filibuster — and I doubt they will, or if they do that they’ll maintain it — McCain won’t be the only GOP senator to vote against it.

    And again, friends and neighbors, anything related to the filibuster in the coming year is pure kabuki show. It’s dead, it’s been dead since the Dems used the nuclear option; and while I’m not happy about that, that’s the political reality because the filibuster has never been anything more than an extra-constitutional self-imposed limitation that depended on self-restraint and mutual respect. The Dems have abandoned self-restraint and they’re entitled to no respect, so the filibuster is dead, dead, dead. If Sen. McConnell has a lick of sense, he’ll maneuver the Dems into becoming the party that officially pulls the plug on it before year-end, probably in connection with raising the debt cap. The best we can hope for on that score now — and that for which we ought all diligently work and make targeted campaign contributions — is to take the Senate in 2014, when retribution should (and I’m optimistic can) be taken.

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  90. Tingalayo!

    come little donkey come

    it too late for us lil donkey – America done spended all the seed corn

    don’t gimme that look it wasn’t me what done it

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  91. Comment by elissa (0c4f80) — 12/13/2013 @ 3:39 pm

    I agree that calling other Repubs “RINO”‘s is poor form, and traitor is even worse and shouldn’t be used.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  92. A fair point, MD how about just focus on the facts, which at variance with what was presented;

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2013/12/13/read-my-lipstick-no-new-taxes/

    narciso (3fec35)

  93. 87. I have, some time back, asked my Rep. for some path to my own verification of these cuts to Medicare.

    Perhaps the reports of 60% of schedule are all we’ve got to be reasonably certain they’re taking place.

    In any case, I predict the deficit will much larger than last FY 4.5%, revenues will be way down. And 2015 will be disaster.

    I never meant to imply that from inside DC, Ryan is sane and a patriot. He is just utterly inadequate with the blinders off.

    Our main hope now is military coup, if State led.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  94. ‘is neither sane nor’, Doh.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  95. There’s something called ‘observer bias’.

    Yesterday was very like the day before, and the one before that,..

    There’s also Zeno’s paradox: If Achilles at each step halves his distance to the finish, he will never finish.

    There is no chance whatever, on the current course, with the current government that we will avoid Armageddon.

    Getting bills through Congress and signed is no part of a solution.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  96. Of course you know the drill;

    How unusual, how uncommon. A surprising coincidence to the case of the killer in Arizona who in 2011 came close to murdering congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, and who, as with Pierson, apparently also was of the left.

    denverpost.com: In one Facebook post, Pierson attacks the philosophies of economist Adam Smith, who through his invisible-hand theory pushed the notion that the free market was self-regulating. In another post, he describes himself as “Keynesian.”

    “I was wondering to all the neoclassicals and neoliberals, why isn’t the market correcting itself?” he wrote. “If the invisible hand is so strong, shouldn’t it be able to overpower regulations?”

    Pierson also appears to mock Republicans on another Facebook post, writing “you republicans are so cute” and posting an image that reads: “The Republican Party: Health Care: Let ‘em Die, Climate Change: Let ‘em Die, Gun Violence: Let ‘em Die, Women’s Rights: Let ‘em Die, More War: Let ‘em Die. Is this really the side you want to be on?”

    Another illustration that left-leaning biases in people can ironically enough reflect traits that are just the opposite of what they fancy about themselves and, in turn, tend to associate with their political foes.

    Mark (58ea35)

  97. My favorite teenage celebrity is Jesse James who rode with the Missouri guerillas, including Bloody Bill Anderson, and probably participated in the Centralia massacre, when he was sixteen. Teenagers get weird ideas. Basically, they’re evil and should be kept in cages until their hormones have adjusted to adult levels. It’s senseless to ascribe any organized thought process to them, let alone any coherent political philosophy.

    nk (dbc370)

  98. They tried a modern update, American Outlaws, that was notable because it had Ali Larter in it,

    narciso (3fec35)

  99. If not because they are committed to them, because their base is. Expecting Democrat senators in this day and age to play by the same strict rules is madness.

    Neither base cares much for truth, just for their issues. But what the Republicans feared in the 70′s were the swing voters, and the R’s dumped Nixon because of it. The same dynamic will play out here.

    Kevin M (536c5d)

  100. “Now, some people are sayin’ that I’m crazy
    ‘Cause, my real name is just Jesse James
    Well I left them half crocked, hard knocks to the Black Rock County
    Just to ride on that New Delhi train…

    I’m just a country boy without angels
    I’m just a country boy without gold
    And I’ve been to silver cities, load of rainbows
    Where they say, I pillaged and I killed and I stole…

    Well they say I killed a man named Smiley Jeerdun
    They say I killed him with one of my guns
    Well I know that I did what I had not ought to
    But I welcomed the run from what I’d done…

    I’m ridin’ on that New Delhi freight train
    I’m ridin’ on that New Delhi line
    I’m ridin’ on that New Delhi freight train
    And I left my guns behind…”

    Colonel Haiku (f1d630)

  101. Beldar,

    Do you really think Boehner misspoke or spoke in anger? You’re smarter than that. This is a coordinated campaign targeting Tea Party conservatives, because establishment Republicans view them as more dangerous than Democrats.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  102. More here.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  103. The GOP vowed it would get even after the shutdown. This isn’t sour grapes. This is part of the plan to hurt the Tea Party.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  104. Elissa,

    I see no evidence that Republicans in Congress get along and this is pure theater.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  105. Beldar,

    You realize that Boehner attacked Tea Party conservatives for two days in a row, don’t you? If this was only anger, he has a 24-hour long anger management problem.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  106. Note the last link where, in response to questions about why Boehner is criticizing Tea Party conservatives, he said it was nothing new. He said he hasn’t said anything he didn’t already feel or think in the past.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  107. You notice how he doesn’t go after Obama in that persistent a fashion,

    narciso (3fec35)

  108. ==Elissa,
    I see no evidence that Republicans in Congress get along and this is pure theater.==

    I do.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  109. I agree with DRJ. Establishment GOP is not concerned with either a “radical philosophy” that will make Republicans in general unelectable, or keep them from governing effectively if elected, or tarnishing the brand. Their concern is the Tea Party muscling their friends and relatives off the ballot and away from the feeding trough in the primaries. “More dangerous than the Democrats”. To the complacent, safe-district Republicans like Mr. Boehner? You betcha.

    nk (dbc370)

  110. ==This is a coordinated campaign targeting Tea Party conservatives, because establishment Republicans view them as more dangerous than Democrats.==

    Well, it’s politics and there are obviously simultaneous coordinated verbal attacks going on between and within the several factions of the right via their leaders, their media favorites, and the think tanks. All factions are playing to their bases. (as Gomer Pyle would say, “surprise surprise surprise.) And as to the second part of the statement — from what I read here regularly, many of the most fervent Teas state that establishment Rs are traitors to the cause, are “just the same” and as evil as Dems or in fact are more awful than Dems because “at least we know where Dems stand”. How’s that any different than what you appear to be intuiting and accusing the establishment of thinking? I just don’t think the actual elected pols on either end of the political right believe their congressional R cohorts and colleagues are more dangerous than Dems. I don’t think Ted Cruz for example believes this at all.

    Here’s what Paul Ryan just said:
    “I think John just kind of got his Irish up. He was frustrated that these groups came out in opposition to our budget agreement before we reached a budget agreement,” Ryan said in a taped interview for NBC’s “Meet the Press.”
    Ryan added: “I was frustrated, too.”
    Ryan said the disagreement with these groups is more tactical than philosophical and that they remain an “indispensable” part of the GOP coalition.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/12/13/paul-ryan-boehner-got-his-irish-up-with-tea-party/

    elissa (0c4f80)

  111. Elissa,

    You are taking their word that this was frustration when I’ve provided links showing this has been planned since October, plus evidence that Boehner said this on two consecutive days. If that’s anger-related, he needs therapy.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  112. Also, there is a difference between comments by anonymous commenters on a blog and comments by the Majority Leader of the House.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  113. ‘the spice must flow’ and we can’t let the Fremen, I mean hobbits get in the way,

    narciso (3fec35)

  114. Maybe Ryan is one who appreciates both the Tea Party and the fact that in spite of everything, the Repub rank and file in Congress is still more important for the Tea Party to work with than the Dems,
    more succinctly, maybe Ryan is trying to calm, ruffled feathers that are truly ruffled.

    There may be some that is theatre, and IMHO the less the better, but I bet there is also some real animosity.
    But there is reason for it. Some folks have real serious problems about some of the things Boehner and McConnell and others have done, and want them out.
    And I suppose if I was one of them or one of their supporters, and I wasn’t interested in changing to the liking of more conservative folk, then I suppose I would kind of resent it and fight it too.

    So the Dems see Repubs and Conservatives especially as more dangerous than jihadist terrorists, Vladimir Putin, and the Chinese; and Repub mainstreams see Tea Party Conservatives as more dangerous than Dems.

    And here I thought all a Tea Party person wanted was for people in Congress to read bills before they voted on them, and to not keep spend oodles more money than we have (as long as we can until things go crash).

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  115. As C.S. Lewis said, “The dwarfs are for the dwarfs.”
    That about sums it up.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  116. I think Ryan is smoothing the waters because he wants to be Majority Leader next year, MD.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  117. DRJ–this is all a dance. The Heritage Action, AFP, and Freedom Works have all also been active and coordinating media appearances, op-eds and talking points for several months as well. Some have been pretty vicious and personal. Many of those exact talking points are regularly seen in blog posts here and elsewhere from anonymous commenters to whom the arguments resonate. It’s a two way street. Everybody can seem to find things about which to take umbrage. That’s really the point I want to make. It’s clear to me that Boehner’s and Ryan’s ire frustration is toward several of the Think Tanks and a couple of excitable radio hosts– not aimed at individual Tea Party conservatives.

    This is what Glenn Beck said on Mark Levin’s program this week.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/glenn-beck-john-boehner-mitch-mcconnell-101122.html

    elissa (0c4f80)

  118. One more thing, elissa: I try not to use the term RINO (except for people like McCain and Graham, who I think have earned it), but FWIW apparently Allahpundit uses it descriptively and he doesn’t seem to consider it a slur. (See, for example, this post.) Allahpundit is a centrist conservative and clearly isn’t a Tea Party conservative.

    As for who centrist Republicans fear more, the Tea Party of the Democrats, I leave you with this excerpt from the Allahpundit link dated October 4, 2013:

    Exit question: Is it true, as Conn Carroll argues, that Boehner and House Republicans will never cave on the debt ceiling because to do so means “the debt limit will be dead forever as a functional tool to limit executive power and control federal spending”? If anything, that seems like it’d be a feature, not a bug, for centrist Republicans: The only thing more torturous than having to play chicken with the debt limit this time is the prospect of having to play it again and again and again as we approach the limit again in years to come? If they’re going to cave and eat mountains of crap from tea partiers, they might as well cave big by passing some sort of bill (Ramesh Ponnuru suggests one here) that would avert confrontations like this in the future.

    They’ve been preparing for this since October. Whatever irritation they feel toward Obama is nothing like what they feel for Tea Party conservatives. No feuds can rival intra-family feuds or revenge.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  119. It’s clear to me that Boehner’s and Ryan’s ire frustration is toward several of the Think Tanks and a couple of excitable radio hosts– not aimed at individual Tea Party conservatives.

    There’s no point in talking about this further since this subject is so clear.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  120. But I would like to talk about related topics, elissa. Please tell me what Boehner thinks about Ted Cruz and Mike Lee — mot what he says but what he really thinks. Also, what does Ryan really think about Obama? They’ve had their clashes but it’s probably all theater. What’s the real story?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  121. Also, when Obama talks about teabaggers, is that aimed at “several of the Think Tanks and a couple of excitable radio hosts” but not individual Tea Party conservatives?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  122. Whoever on their team, said come on no one’s gonna buy a deal from Patty Murray, is feeling foolish,

    narciso (3fec35)

  123. ==Also, when Obama talks about teabaggers, is that aimed at “several of the Think Tanks and a couple of excitable radio hosts” but not individual Tea Party conservatives?==

    Wha???? But let’s do discuss President Obama and Obamacare and the Progressive agenda and the EPA and the IRS scandals, and Benghazi, and drones and the NSA outrages, and Fast and Furious.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  124. All reasons there are no grounds for a deal,

    narciso (3fec35)

  125. “Note the last link where, in response to questions about why Boehner is criticizing Tea Party conservatives, he said it was nothing new.”

    DRJ – It doesn’t seem to be new and the criticism flies both directions. Having conservatives criticize Ryan’s deal before the details were out seems to have been one thing which set Boehner off according to your links. That’s a legit criticism.

    Planned since October? Stories like the following, even if from a small group, do cement those warm fuzzy feelings. Please stop pretending the dialog is unidirectional:

    WASHINGTON — A tea party group has launched a campaign to support primary challenges against all 87 Republicans who voted for the deal in late October to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling.

    The Tea Party Leadership Fund, a PAC affiliated with the group TheTeaParty.net, began a fundraising push — dubbed the “Primaries for Traitors Fund” — shortly after the shutdown deal passed in the House, and they are now ramping up efforts to find “credible candidates” in each of the districts, said the fund’s treasurer, Dan Backer.

    “From our perspective, we see this as a signature vote. You can’t be a conservative and vote to raise the debt ceiling,” Backer said. “I recognize there are some places where voters may actually think that was the right vote. And there may be places where you have an incumbent who wins with 90% of the vote every time and there’s not a credible challenger. I recognize that, but we’re certainly going to do our best.”

    Backer says the group has honed in on a few specific members to start: Illinois Rep. Rodney Davis, New York Rep. Peter King, North Carolina Rep. Robert Pittenger, Louisiana Rep. Charles Boustany, and most importantly, Backer said, House Speaker John Boehner in Ohio.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/katenocera/tea-party-group-will-primary-87-republican-traitors

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  126. The teabaggers should just shut up and take their orders from the GOP leadership.

    JD (5c1832)

  127. daleyrocks,

    Tea Party conservatives get to criticize Boehner because he’s the leader. He’s supposed to be the leader of all the GOP, not the attack man against factions in his own Party. Remember the big tent? It’s smaller now.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  128. in my tent we have a cheese plate and later on we gonna watch the hobbit on blu-ray

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  129. It got him an invite to Meet the Press, and they are so imminently fair,

    http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2013/12/13/russias-return-to-the-middle-east/

    narciso (3fec35)

  130. elissa,

    I’m sorry you didn’t get my comparison. Boehner attacked Tea Party conservatives. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that he was “only” attacking think tanks and talk show hosts. (I don’t, by the way, but I will for this comment.) That means the K Street business lobbyists are right that it needed to be said:

    “Speaker Boehner said what a lot of us had been thinking for a long time, that these ‘purity for profit’ groups are taking advantage of well-meaning but politically naive members,” said one business group lobbyist.

    “Well-meaning but politically naive members” are like Obama’s naive bitter, clingers, aren’t they? I don’t see much space between your position and Obama’s.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  131. No feuds can rival intra-family feuds or revenge.

    Even more so when there are the examples found regularly in this forum of people generally agreeing with one another most of the time, nonetheless developing a discord over merely an issue or two and begin snapping at one another. Moreover, that occurs even though our livelihood (ie, our jobs and salaries) isn’t at stake, as it will be with professional politicians in either camp who are threatened with losing both their job and pride.

    Meanwhile, the “crap” sandwich that is the budget deal and the crap pie that is Obamacare can be finished off with the crap drink that is this society’s eroding culture. BTW, the following makes sense to me in this era of fe-e-e-lings and “I’m okay, you’re okay”—but also since this custom actually accommodates a larger slice of human nature, referring to the non-monogamous nature of male behavior. So if it’s good enough for the goose (ie, gay ones), it’s good enough for the gander.

    breitbart.com, December 14: In a game-changer for the legal fight over same-sex marriage that gives credence to opponents’ “slippery slope” arguments, a federal judge has now ruled that the legal reasoning for same-sex marriage means that laws against polygamy are likewise unconstitutional. In his 91-page opinion in Brown v. Buhman, on Dec. 13, U.S. District Judge Clark Waddoups struck down Utah’s law making polygamy a crime. In so doing, he may have opened Pandora’s Box.

    As a condition for becoming a state in 1896, Congress required Utah to outlaw polygamy, which is marriage between three or more persons. This case involved a family of fundamentalist offshoots of nineteenth-century Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints disavowed polygamy in 1890, and again in 1904, but some splinter groups continue the practice.

    Waddoups’ opinion would not only cover such groups, however, but also Muslims or anyone else who claims a right—religious or otherwise—to have multiple-person marriages. He notes that the Supreme Court ruled against polygamy in its 1878 case Reynolds v. U.S., but said he cannot simply rest upon that decision “without seriously addressing the much developed constitutional jurisprudence that now protects individuals from the criminal consequences intended by legislatures to apply to certain personal choices.”

    …The new conception of marriage, rooted in the proliferation of no-fault divorce laws in the 1970s and the sexual revolution, is that marriage is about personal happiness and fulfillment [instead of merely protecting children and women]. People should be free to form whatever relationships they find personally satisfying and to follow whatever their personal sexual inclinations are to engage in whatever form of sexual behavior they find gratifying.

    Mark (58ea35)

  132. Having conservatives criticize Ryan’s deal before the details were out seems to have been one thing which set Boehner off according to your links. That’s a legit criticism.

    Because it’s unthinkable that the details might have been leaked and/or were generally known in Washington prior to the official announcement of the deal.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  133. Mark:

    Even more so when there are the examples found regularly in this forum of people generally agreeing with one another most of the time, nonetheless developing a discord over merely an issue or two and begin snapping at one another.

    I’m snapping but not because it’s a family feud. It’s frustrating to me to see arguments like elissa claiming it’s clear that Boehner was only talking about think tanks and talk show hosts, at the same time Beldar claims Boehner was talking about Tea Party conservatives but he spoke in anger. Meanwhile, I think Boehner meant what he said and said it on purpose. That’s three viewpoints from three commenters, any of which could be right but two have to be wrong. But to elissa, it’s “clear” which one is right. What’s the point of discussion like that?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  134. Boehner could have used Cantor or McCarthy to get his anti-Tea Party message out. He didn’t. He wanted this to be noticed and it has been.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  135. ==But I would like to talk about related topics, elissa. Please tell me what Boehner thinks about Ted Cruz and Mike Lee — mot what he says but what he really thinks. Also, what does Ryan really think about Obama? They’ve had their clashes but it’s probably all theater. What’s the real story?==

    You know DRJ, I am just not going to dignify that post with a response. You’re not happy with me today –but even so, it is disappointing and surprising that you threw out this question whose answers are obviously both unanswerable and unknowable to any of us.

    Do you agree, though, that in trying important and emotional cases lawyers regularly use photo ops, sympathetic media, leaked info, and high drama in front of the public and jury? They brutalize each other’s arguments and each other’s personal credibility in court. Then, not always but many times they go have dinner and drinks together. They vacation together. Their wives carpool to the kids’ little league and soccer games. Perhaps they even collaborate on future cases. What’s real and what’s not?

    I’ve a blizzard outside to contend with so I won’t be able to be around blogs the rest of the afternoon.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  136. I’m snapping but not because it’s a family feud.

    DRJ, I wasn’t even referring to you and Elissa, but to all forumers (including me) in general. BTW, I think your take on what’s going on with Boehner, etc, is closest to the truth, and suspect we’re witnessing bruised egos and a power-centric, my-way-or-the-highway attitude at play amongst various divisions of the right and squishy-right, along with their also having a difference of opinion.

    Mark (58ea35)

  137. the weather outside is frightful but this cheese plate is so delightful

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  138. I’m sure it’s a great deal;

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2013/12/14/boehners-bulworth-moment/

    I saw Two Tours after some clips from Fellowship, this round doesn’t appeal to me,

    narciso (3fec35)

  139. boehnerpoof is an embarrassing drama queen

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  140. Elissa and DRJ,

    Thanks for a stimulating discussion on the board here. While you may be frustrated with Elissa , DRJ, and Elissa with you, I think ultimately you both prove the efforts made to divide the R’s and Tea Party by the Dems has had an impact. Boehner has just amped it up with his reaction. Frankly, I see it as good thing because before the next election one faction or the other will have to take the lead or the collective right is hosed. Perhaps there is no purity of party but there should at least be a united ‘front’, if just that.

    And I think Chris Christie will frankly be the ultimate winner of this internal dissent.

    Dana (d64d0d)

  141. I forgot the entry code to my panic room
    Don’t fear the Reaper
    http://youtu.be/YvBN3C2wepY

    pdbuttons (0653bf)

  142. “Tea Party conservatives get to criticize Boehner because he’s the leader. He’s supposed to be the leader of all the GOP, not the attack man against factions in his own Party. Remember the big tent? It’s smaller now.”

    DRJ – It was wrong of me earlier to say you were pretending the attacks were unidirectional. You had clearly acknowledged they have not been.

    I do not understand your point. If Boehner is receiving what he perceives to be incoming unfair criticism shouldn’t he be allowed to address it in whatever manner he chooses just as any other public figure? It shouldn’t matter if the perceived criticism is coming from theoretically the same side of the aisle or the different side of the aisle. If the criticism lasts two days he is allowed to be angry for two days, BFD.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  143. Boehner’s just giving teh squeaky wheels some more grease.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  144. elissa,

    I think you deserve a medal for tolerating the way that the groundskeeper keeps moving the goal posts.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  145. I saw teh Hobbit, feets! No… wait… that was the Slayer/Megadeath concert.

    Colonel Haiku (1be04f)

  146. Let the scoffers among the Know Nothing Party issue their derisive catcalls:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/12/14-experts-predict-economic-catastrophe.html

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  147. DRJ, my dear friend, if you’re right (#105 — 12/14/2013 @ 10:36 am) that “[t]his is a coordinated campaign targeting Tea Party conservatives, because establishment Republicans view them as more dangerous than Democrats” — then why did Paul Ryan go on national TV immediately to call the Tea Party faction of the GOP “indispensable” the very next day?

    Coordinated by whom? With what discipline or penalty for noncompliance? Targeting one day, conspicuously mistargeting the next? Why would that be?

    I see the opposite, frankly. Rather than a coordinated, monolithic conspiracy among establishment Republicans to strike back at the Tea Party — which itself has a great many definitional issues: am I part of it? are you? we certainly agree on almost everything important about national policy, whether we are or not — I see, in Boehner’s smart-ass remarks, a politician who (a) is from a safe seat, unchallenged for reelection himself (unlike, say, McConnell), who (b) keenly feels the responsibility of presiding over the only part of the federal government capable of resisting Obama and his ilk, with consequent responsibilities, and who (c) is very frustrated by what he considers (with some justification) to be grandstanding by fellow Republicans who cannot possibly be satisfied by anything realistically achievable while the Dems hold the WH and Senate.

    (As suggested above, I’m not as frustrated or annoyed. I see a longer purpose — education of the proverbial “swing voter” — being served by what seems, to Boehner from his viewpoint, to be only grandstanding obstructionism by his fellow Republicans. Ted Cruz is doing one job, of which I approve; and so is Paul Ryan!)

    Look again to history. The original Tea Party was itself extremely controversial among Americans, including not only other Boston “radicals” (like John Adams) who thought it went too far too fast, but mid- and southern-colony revolutionaries like Franklin and Washington, who were resentful at the Massachusetts faction who’d taken it upon themselves to force an issue that was still under negotiation. On this topic, I highly recommend Nathaniel Philbrick’s brilliant new book, Bunker Hill: A City, a Siege, a Revolution.” Read it and then tell me whether or not the Americans who ended up making our nation, in their unruly and sharp-elbowed disagreement that ultimate coalesced into history’s most successful revolution, remind you of today’s Tea Partiers.

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  148. 140. No worries, the Whigs will never produce a winning message from surrender.

    Beldar persuasively argued that Ryan got more than the Whigs would have managed in a donnybrook and yet only prodded and poked the Right into high rage.

    Democratic House candidates are already running against Obamacare with more alacrity than the Party of Stupid. The designated losers will be embarrassed for not fixing the abortion and sticking America with the bill.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  149. #153… Gary… that’s one reason why I won’t be pushing the button this Monday to cash out with a lump sum on my pension and retiring… a marvelous offer from my employer that would be in low seven figures… I just don’t think it will be enough (I never thought I’d be saying that) and I’d rather have my job.

    Colonel Haiku (1be04f)

  150. Breeds hill…nitpicky si-the fight was for Bunker Hill/ adjacent..but most of the fighting occurred at Breeds Hill..the monument is on Breeds Hill… you can looky down at the USS Constitution from there-they are about a football field apart..off to the left are high priced yuppie shit built condos and further back in Charlestown is the white trash wife beater housing projects..the Boston Garden or Fleet Center is a skip away
    just being chatty

    pdbuttons (0653bf)

  151. Beldar

    to Boehner from his viewpoint, to be only grandstanding obstructionism by his fellow Republicans.

    I think this is kind of what rubs people wrong. There are plenty of reasons to oppose this crap sammich that have nothing to do with obstructionism.

    JD (5c1832)

  152. 156. Better you than me making that decision. Snakebit’s my middle name.

    I never even dreamt seven figures.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  153. 133. “It’s smaller now.”

    Its a trend, a denouement, an extinction by fits and starts.

    The good news is that in months or a very few years there will not be enough scratch to meet the Mob’s protection payroll.

    The bad news is the only tool in the Whig chest is pandering.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  154. When you thought that The Hobbit, the book, was the gayest thing to come out of Middle Earth, along comes Peter Jackson to make the LOTR movies. And now The Hobbit movies define doubling down on teh gay. I feel my wrist grow limp every time I walk by a Redbox that carries part one. And that’s another thing. LOTR was three long books. The Hobbit book was hobbit length. How did he get three movies out of it?

    nk (dbc370)

  155. JD, I completely agree that “[t]here are plenty of reasons to oppose this crap sammich that have nothing to do with obstructionism.” I’m fairly confident that Boehner and Ryan and every GOP congressman who voted for this particular crap sandwich would agree too. They certainly have said as much.

    Boehner’s focusing not on winning in 2014 and 2016 (which are incredibly important middle-range goals), but on keeping the government from shutting down. His job requires him to look at the very near term: Today’s vote on H.R. ____.

    As DRJ points out, his most recent comments are not the only examples of him expressing frustration at what, from his limited perspective, seems to be (mostly) obstruction and grandstanding. He’s let slip before, and he’s sometimes a very blunt fellow. (Most of that bluntness gets directed at Democrats most of the time, which is why he’s Speaker.) I’d bet his staff and closest confidantes are beating Boehner about the head and shoulders with a Nerf bat today, and they’re telling him he needs to be more disciplined and less like Harry Reid in popping off.

    I’m not condemning or belittling or even disapproving of those who’re disappointed in the but deal. I’m genuinely one of them. Ryan and Boehner both also claim to also be among the disappointed. Well, we can accept them at face value and in a context which at least partially excuses Boehner’s being impolitic — or we can conclude that they’re secret sell-outs on Hillary’s and MoveOn.org’s payroll.

    It’s a target-rich environment for better targets of your ire. To begin with, look at the large pool of legislators with a “(D)” associated with their names. Failing that, if you have to include those with “(R)” after their names, look to the McCains and other Republicans whose votes sometimes can’t be counted upon in the lurch. (Actually, though, most of the time, they still do vote with their partisans. And I’ll take Susan Collins over the Maine Democratic Party’s alternative any damn day. We’re talking politics here — by definition the art of the possible, not the ideal.)

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  156. ^^^ “in the but deal” –> “in the budget deal.”

    Freudian? If so, should have been “butt deal.”

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  157. Pardon the interruption:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-14/russia-stations-tactical-nuclear-capable-missiles-along-polish-border

    At this rate we won’t get an election in 2016.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  158. Beldar – then Boner should say so. He should direct his fire at the crap sammich as opposed to those that apparently have the temerity to call a crap sammich a crap sammich. Heaven forbid that people shut out of the negotiations voice objections to the details leaked. I suspect it will only get worse the more we learn about it.

    JD (8cd158)

  159. Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 12/14/2013 @ 1:06 pm

    Yes, I saw that, and I assume there will be a post on it. It seems a little important.

    I also saw this today, much more entertaining:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz_JCip9Ihs

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  160. JD, I agree that the Speaker ought to try harder to contain his frustration.

    I’m just saying this: No better deal was available. I don’t want to cut off or belittle those who (like me and you and many others) wish we had a better deal, and who are frustrated that we’re condemned to reside in Crap Sandwich Cafe until January 2015, when things might get considerably better. (The fare is still going to mostly suck until we also regain the White House, which means January 2017 — ugh, that’s a long time!) And unlike the Speaker at times — but like, I think, Chairman Ryan — I do appreciate the vital role that is being played by legislators like Ted Cruz in rallying the base, in educating the undecided, and in venting some of the rage. But I wish those who (with reason) fault the Speaker for faulting other Republicans would not be quite so quick themselves to fault other Republicans. And I wish they’d reconcile themselves to the notion that we’ve got to choke down some of the crap sandwich before we can get out of the damn Crap Sandwich Cafe. Spitting it out on the floor — shutting down the government again, for example — seems unlikely to me to fill our bellies, but very likely to sentence us to a longer term in the Crap Sandwich Cafe.

    I’d much rather spend my energy building constructively on the growing and now-near-universal recognition that Obamacare sucks. There’s a theme upon which we can agree, and upon which the GOP can retake the Senate in November 2014 (effective January 2015).

    Beldar (8ff56a)

  161. Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 12/14/2013 @ 1:06 pm

    This eventuality was predicted when the SCOTUS decided that TX Sodomy case (can’t remember name of decision).
    The Mormon fundamentalists should send their thanks to J. Kennedy.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  162. Boehner’s anger….

    Beldar, I think the Speaker could have borrowed a page from Mr. Lincoln’s book by writing down everything he wanted to say re The TEA Party, and then putting that long missive into his desk drawer, and locking it.
    Then, he could have called a leadership meeting, and inviting the leading lights of the DC TEA Party to join them, and discussed the issues that divide, and unite, them in a calm, rational manner.
    After the first of the year, he could unlock that drawer and re-read his words and do whatever he thinks would be appropriate – the shredder would be nice.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  163. I understand Boehner’s frustration in a way. When someone is actually responsible for getting stuff done, and his putative allies are making his job harder, it can be particularly disheartening.

    What the TEAs what (and what I want) isn’t currently possible. Trying to force that issue, when it is so clearly not possible, is counterproductive.

    Our problem in the last election wasn’t that we nominated a centrist (we didn’t), but that we DID NOT ELECT HIM. Or much of anyone else. We have to live with that and try very hard not to screw up like that again.

    Kevin M (536c5d)

  164. I don’t think this is a Mormon thing. The holding seems to be that state-sanctioned bigamy can be made illegal, but co-habitation which includes fornication and adultery, even by a person already in a legal single-spouse marriage, cannot be. I guess even if it is open and notorious. The “it’s ok even if it’s open and notorious” part may be a little daring, but otherwise it’s pretty much the law everywhere in the United States these days. And it started way before Lawrence. Even states which refused to legally recognize common law marriages, did not punish them as meretricious relationships if the parties did not otherwise offend societal sensibilities (which is why I say the “open and notorious” part might be the only real issue).

    nk (dbc370)

  165. And I already picked the theme song, happyfeet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQSn26zCXYQ

    nk (dbc370)

  166. I know jack Mormons brought the case, BTW. I just don’t think that it’s something that is going be welcomed by moral Mormons, regardless of their view of plural marriage.

    nk (dbc370)

  167. 2013/12/14-experts-predict-economic-catastrophe.html

    I wish I were prophetic because I’m not sure exactly how much disquiet I should have about the future. If I had the power of foresight, I could then go 5, 10 or 20 years into the future, look back at this moment in time, and then know whether I was being either too pessimistic or too naive. So without that ability, I currently feel like we’re entering very unchartered waters, perhaps reminiscent of the years during the 1930s and 1940s when certain months or years would look as though there was light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, only to discover — as the joke goes — it actually was the headlight of an oncoming train.

    Since economics and culture are closely intertwined, the concept of “it’s the economy, stupid!” is greatly influenced by the stability of a society’s social characteristics, by its overall attitudes in general (eg, the agenda of GLBT: yah or nay?), by its family structure in particular. Throw the following into the mix, and, yes, I think we’re entering very uncharted waters (perhaps shark-infested?):

    washingtonpost.com, December 13: One narrative about Muslim immigrants in Europe is that only a relatively small proportion holds views that are sometimes labeled as “fundamentalist.” Ruud Koopmans from the Wissenschaftszentrum in Berlin argues that this perspective is incorrect. He conducted a telephone survey of 9,000 respondents in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, and Sweden and interviewed both Turkish and Moroccan immigrants as well as a comparison group of Christians.

    His first finding is that majorities of Muslim immigrants believe that there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick (75 percent), and that religious rules are more important than the laws of the country in which they live (65 percent). Moreover, these views are as widespread among younger Muslims as among older generations.

    He then looks at hostility toward out-groups. Fifty-eight percent do not want homosexual friends, 45 percent think that Jews cannot be trusted, and 54 percent believe that the West is out to destroy Muslim culture. Among Christians, 23 percent believe that Muslims are out to destroy Western culture. Koopmans says these results hold when you control for the varying socio-economic characteristics of these groups…

    [T]he absence of generational differences in the survey responses [suggests] that this is not an issue that is likely to go away any time soon.

    Mark (58ea35)

  168. We’ll have to wait and see what happens on appeal at the 10th, and eventually SCOTUS.
    If polygamy is eventually upheld, does that bring into question the requirements for Utah Statehood imposed by Congress? And would that invalidate Statehood, or allow Utah to secede?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  169. Mark, it is not the comparison to the 20′s and 30′s that bother me, it is the upheaval and discord of the 1850′s and what we are seeing today in events and policies that challenge the fundamental core of The Republic. I believe that we are on the brink of a great rending.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  170. Lawrence was the decision, that overrode Bowers from 1987,

    narciso (3fec35)

  171. We’ll have to wait and see what happens on appeal at the 10th

    The snippet of an article I posted regarding the ruling out of Utah has been explained by other online observers as perhaps more limited in legal scope than the blogger at briebart.com apparently defined it to be. Nonetheless, from a purely symbolic or emotional standpoint, the loosening of the original boundaries around the definition of marriage makes polygamy now seem less alien or less of an outlier than in the past.

    The ongoing desensitization of the culture continues at a rather fast pace — eg, it wasn’t all that long ago that I thought someone as disreputable as Obama would never be voted into the presidency — and I find I’m no less impacted by that than anyone else.

    Mark (58ea35)

  172. We still have no idea, Mark, just how “disreputable” he may be.
    It may take another “Vernona” opening to discover the truth.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  173. I believe that we are on the brink of a great rending.

    askeptic, I look across the globe and consider the case of Japan, a nation that has been suffering from economic stagnation for over 20 years and which has yet to to find a formula that will allow it to get out of a long-term funk. But what makes me more worried about what’s going on here in the US is not only so much a form of Japan-itis or Euro-sclerosis spanning the Pacific or Atlantic, but also the social-cultural trends that, unlike what’s true of Japan, seem more ominous or dysfunctional. A situation where we in America are stuck with the challenges of a bit of Islam-ism mixed together with a bit of Mexico-itis, with a dose of South-Africa disease sprinkled with a dash of Argentina/Venezuela lunacy.

    I want to say: “Buckle up.”

    Mark (58ea35)

  174. You have to distinguish between left and statist, Bismarck was the latter, his economic advisers, Wagner and Smoller, followed a dirigiste philosophy that reigned in places like Austria till the fall of CreditAnstalt in 1931, this is what von Mises and Hayek were rebelling against, the Japanese industrial policy model followed those lines not Adam Smith.

    narciso (3fec35)

  175. Japan: They only wish they’d lost just a Decade.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  176. 176. Agreed, the passivity of the ‘opposition’ is bizarre. Very like Eastern Europes Jews, we should just file into the boxcars and enjoy the ride.

    Things really can’t get much worse before they get better, can they?

    Really, one does wonder what might the final straw be for a Boehner, in an attack from within against his Country that amounted an existential threat.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  177. How many Whigs can fit into a Cooper Midget?

    Twenty. Two in the front seat, two in the back and 16 in the ashtray.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  178. I think that Boehner is so focused on keeping the wheels of government turning that he has lost sight of the great upheavals that are ongoing all around him.
    How can BarryCare succeed in CA if 70% or more of CA docs withdraw their services from Covered California?
    How can BarryCare succeed if MD can’t sign anyone up?
    Or, if you have to spend $7MM to get one sign-up in OR?
    What happens when Dearborn demands, and starts acting upon, the imposition of Shariah in all civil and criminal matters?
    There are a lot of fuses out there, and no shortage of crazies running around with lighters at the ready.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  179. gary, what’s a “Cooper Midget”?
    Do you mean a Mini-Cooper?;
    and do they still have ash-trays?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  180. this is not the important part, it’s who is behind them;

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/12/12/211488/benghazi-libya-has-become-training.html

    narciso (3fec35)

  181. Putting it more tactfully

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/08/codevilla-republican-leaders-care-more-about-loss-of-power-than-loss-of-liberty-video/

    he’s been in naval intelligence, the CIA, Senate staff and a college professor,

    narciso (3fec35)

  182. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 12/14/2013 @ 7:28 pm
    Scary.

    We’ll have to wait and see what happens on appeal at the 10th, and eventually SCOTUS
    .
    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 12/14/2013 @ 5:51 pm
    I remember being told with enthusiasm that court rulings on same-sex marriage would have no carry over to polygamy or other arrangements different than the traditional two person marriage.
    I am sure I read that here.
    People were adamant that redefining marriage as same or hetero would work fine, since everyone agreed that marriage consisted of 2 people,
    and that it just wasn’t a logical argument to say that if one changed the definition of marriage then why couldn’t it be changed to whatever people wanted it.

    People said that. Whether they said it with a straight face and meant it or not, I don’t know.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  183. Of course, that is somewhat akin to Sotomayor’s appeal in Ricci, but promoting such faulty thinking up the ranks, as John Lott has shown the process is leading is not good for anyone,

    narciso (3fec35)

  184. Exactly. faulty thinking can be tolerated when overruled,
    but if you elevate the faulty thinkers to be the ones doing the reviewing…

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  185. Here’s what Orrin Kerr says (in part):

    In other words, as reconstructed by the court, people who are married by the state already can’t get married a second time. But people who are already legally married are allowed to live with other people as if they are married to those other people, and to hold themselves out as being married to those other people, as long as they do not try to get married to those other people. At least, that’s what I think the court is saying. This isn’t an easy opinion to decipher.

    That’s what I think it says too. The State of Utah is not being forced to hand out polygamous marriage licenses. If married people get a marriage license to marry an additional spouse, they are still guilty of bigamy and can go to prison. If they only cohabit, with all the fringe benefits, and call themselves married, even if they’re a bunch, it’s not bigamy and they cannot be punished for it.

    Seriously, I take it to mean that it is not a crime for a married man to call his mistress his wife, and it is not a crime for a complacent wife to call her husband’s mistress his “other wife”. It’s really pretty much the state of affairs all over the country (pun intended). Anybody know of any prosecutions for adultery, or adult, consensual, private, non-commercial fornication, in recent decades?

    nk (dbc370)

  186. Just for the record, I am a monogamist. The favorite wife I keep mentioning was my only wife. I do not endorse, I describe. Not to mention that the definition of bigamy seems to me to be the sentence and not the crime. ;)

    nk (dbc370)

  187. From The Atlantic here is a bit of the backstory of the now famous Boehner “are you kidding me?” quote.

    Reporters were asking him to respond to the outside groups—Heritage Action, Americans for Prosperity, and the Club for Growth, to name a few—that had come out against the deal and were threatening to punish House members who disagreed.

    “Frankly, I think that they’ve lost all credibility,” Boehner said. “They pushed us into the fight to defund Obamacare and to shut down the government.” And then, he noted, some of them even admitted they never thought that ill-fated tactic would actually work. “Are you kidding me?”

    Not much gets Boehner worked up. He is laid back to a fault. But the revelation that he and his fellow lawmakers were essentially pawns in a game played by agitators accountable to no one was too much for him to stomach.

    This link reports the context in which he was asked and answered the question and which I believe clearly and specifically clarifies exactly who the entities (not individuals) were that he was addressing at the time. Hope this helps.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/why-this-round-of-the-republican-civil-war-was-different/282319/

    elissa (0c4f80)

  188. It helps, elissa, but not in the way people like Boehner would like. They’re playing a game.

    I, for one, have run out of admiration for how skillfully people like Boehner can outmaneuver Obama to ensure he doesn’t get every last thing he wants in a budget deal.

    Guys like Boehner have gone from wanting a win to hoping to beat the spread. That’s what they consider a victory now. And those of us who, no s***, think our team should go for a win are crazies with no credibility.

    How, I ask you, can shutting down the gub’mint (even though that was Obama/Reid’s choice but I’ll play along) over Obamacare be cast as a negative?

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  189. Because the writer is former Politico, not sure if she’s Journalist, but I could give you a few samples,

    narciso (3fec35)

  190. Of course she doesn’t go far enough for some,

    http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/molly-ball-heritage-foundation-article-093013

    narciso (3fec35)

  191. Any further questions, where their sympathies lie;

    http://newsbusters.org/people/molly-ball

    narciso (3fec35)

  192. O/T, but Dixie Gun Works is having a sale on some of their muzzle loaders.

    I can vouch for the double 20 gauge pistol. Now marked down to $649 from $815.

    http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=14020

    I paid less for mine because I bought the kit and assembled it myself. And kind of screwed it up, but it still works.

    They make a holster for it.

    http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_98_528&products_id=14178

    But I find unless you’ve got a horse to haul it around don’t bother to try and wear it on your belt. Otherwise you’ll be tripping on your pants.

    A strong horse. That can carry two of the things to balance the load. One on each side of the saddle horn. Hanging just one on your horse would be animal cruelty.

    I don’t plan on carrying mine far. I keep it for home defense. When I show it to people they gawp at it like it’s the shark from Jaws. The can’t believe it’s legal (It is; it’s black powder). It’s two barrels of freakin’ awesome.

    When I go deer hunting it mostly stays in the truck. But if I want to devastate something, she’ll do the trick.

    Everyone needs one of these guns.

    http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=14020

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  193. Loyalist Arms is also having a sale.

    http://www.loyalistarms.ca/specialspage1.html

    I only took a cursory glance, but it doesn’t appear the Prussian horse pistol is on sale.

    http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/prussionmilitary1840.html

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  194. Too bad.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  195. In case you’re interested, the Deal of the Day at Museum Replica Products is the Windlass Steelcrafts Scimatar.

    http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-283-scimitar.aspx

    At that price I would get one. If I were still into swords. Not like I’m afraid of Redford checking into my prison and making fun of my collection like he did to Gandolfini’s in “The Last Castle.”

    I mean, if I were to add something to my load it wouldn’t be a sword. Not even a machete. Just a sharp shovel.

    No offense meant to Jack Churchill.

    http://www.damninteresting.com/any-officer-who-goes-into-action-without-his-sword-is-improperly-dressed/

    In 1940, some of the German commanders who were overseeing the push into France began to receive seemingly random reports of soldiers having been killed with broad-head arrows or hacked with a English Claymore. Effective enough weapons it would seem, but archaic even in that day and age. They likely could have guessed the bowman was an English soldier, but they couldn’t have appreciated these as the calling card of the rabid eccentric, Captain Jack Churchill.

    Not like a sword won’t still work. And a scimitar will work about as well as any other.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  196. 187. Touche. The old joke featured a Beetle, an’ I was trying to ‘update’ it for the youngsters. Prolly unwise.

    198. Molly Ball? What’s Jenny Rubin say?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  197. the rabid eccentric

    Try rising to major command nowadays with those words by you name.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  198. To be fair I don’t know if “rabid eccentric” was ever especially career enhancing.

    I also don’t know what’s worse. A dog that won’t go inside. Or a dog that doesn’t know if it wants to go outside. Because that’s what I’m dealing with. Every 20 minutes. Because, surprise! It’s 25 degrees. So he wants out. And then he wants in. And the he wants out. And then he wants back in.

    Did I mention Cold Steel is having a sale on Grosse Messer factory seconds? Probably because I’m not fan.

    Sorry, I have one confused dog to deal with.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  199. Steve57-Isulated doghouse. They have a fur coat.

    mg (31009b)

  200. http://www.ltspecpro.com/Product/88GMS2A/GROSSE_MESSER.aspx

    Like I said. Not a fan. You’re better off with an axe.

    And if you’re going to get an axe, get a good axe.

    http://www.loghomestore.com/c170-axes.php

    Gransfors Bruks is a small Swedish family operated company formed in 1902. Ever since it was founded the company has been making axes of the finest quality. The smiths at Grnsfors Bruks are famous for their skill.
    GRANSFORS AXES are forged by professional smiths. The proof of this professionalism is that they are able to forge axes with such precision that no supplementary work, to hide mistakes in the forging, is needed.

    A good axe will last you a lifetime.

    Also, my dog finally fell asleep.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  201. 209. Steve57-Isulated doghouse. They have a fur coat.

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 12/15/2013 @ 2:24 am

    I have a doggie igloo. In fact, I have two.

    But I also have dog that doesn’t seem capable of figuring this s*** out.

    I can’t really blame him. He rarely confronts the situation. And when he does he thinks it’s my fault for letting it happen.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  202. Growing up in the North Star state the dogs never set foot in the house. 50 below and they would sleep in the hog barn.
    Doggie igloo? what the hell is next?

    mg (31009b)

  203. For your Sunday viewing pleasure, the A-1 Skyraider.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5kNlb0prOE

    Just so you know, you don’t just start up one of those beasts on a cold morning. Or any morning, really.

    It takes time to warm up one of those big radials. To coax it to life.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  204. Try driving a old John Deere “A” when it’s 50 below, it takes a few miles for the tires to get back to round.
    Thump, thump, thump.
    Love those collapsable wings.

    mg (31009b)

  205. Which one is the North Star State? I can identify the Lone Star State. My geography pretty much begins and ends there.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  206. 214.Try driving a old John Deere “A” when it’s 50 below, it takes a few miles for the tires to get back to round.
    Thump, thump, thump.
    Love those collapsable wings.

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 12/15/2013 @ 3:26 am

    My ’76 Scout is about the same.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  207. The simple answer would be just to get new tires. Retire the old Mickey Thompsons.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  208. Minnesota.

    mg (31009b)

  209. But they’ve got tread left.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  210. I have a 76 scout. 2-door, can only get in the back from the passenger side. An absolute tank. I use it for hunting and fishing on the farm. Tan with a camo top.

    mg (31009b)

  211. I’d be surprised if you had a ’76 International that had more than two doors. Considering they stopped making the Travellal years before.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  212. I’d like to have a Travellal, though.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  213. Travelall was the farmers pick for years until the Chevy Suburban came on market.

    mg (31009b)

  214. Steve57, hope the pooch is o.k.
    gotta go shovel snow off the hot house.

    mg (31009b)

  215. Pooch is A OK.

    He was going to be my pheasant dog.

    Until I learned I didn’t have time to train bird dogs.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  216. 224. Travelall was the farmers pick for years until the Chevy Suburban came on market.

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 12/15/2013 @ 4:08 am

    On the back of my Binder I have a big sticker that says, “We race farm equipment.”

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  217. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/14/2013 @ 9:01 pm

    Thanks for the effort, nk. I guess I have to start being more critical of Breitbart pieces now.
    From what you say, it sounds as if this is a bit of a “So what?” in this day and age, but maybe I’m wrong.

    I’m assuming there are still civil legal consequences if a person, male or female, doesn’t want to put up with their spouse spending his/her time and energy and resources on another person.

    But then again, maybe society would be better off if there were more consequences for the average individual not fulfilling what were once considered given responsibilities. From what I have read superficially, poverty and criminality are highly linked to single parent households.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  218. Anybody know of any prosecutions for adultery, or adult, consensual, private, non-commercial fornication, in recent decades?

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/14/2013 @ 9:01 pm

    There was that case a couple of years ago in Washington state of the liberal fellow who’d had sex of a sort with an adult horse. Word got out and he was prosecuted for his crime.

    Colonel Haiku (1be04f)

  219. Comment by Beldar (8ff56a) — 12/14/2013 @ 2:38 pm

    why did Paul Ryan go on national TV immediately to call the Tea Party faction of the GOP “indispensable” the very next day?

    They are distinguishing between small “Tea Party” groups, and big organizations like the Heritage Foundation and the Club for Growth.

    Also, he was talking to and about the “Indians” and not the “chiefs.”

    Sammy Finkelman (ca4c0f)

  220. 208. Comment by Steve57 (137dd8) — 12/15/2013 @ 2:14 am

    I have one confused dog to deal with.

    Maybe the dog is looking for a temperature that’s somewhere in between what’s inside the house and outside. Maybe you could create a drafty spot.

    Sammy Finkelman (ca4c0f)

  221. The legal spouse still has all the remedies of divorce against the cheating spouse — including one half of the marital estate, support, and right of homestead in the marital residence. Against the lover, the remedy for alienation of affections varies from state to state. In some states the homewrecker can be sued for general (whatever the jury pleases) damages, in some it’s special (prove the numbers) damages but special damages can include dissipation of marital property i.e. anything the girlfriend got which the wife would be entitled to half of in the event of divorce.

    nk (dbc370)

  222. The can’t believe it’s legal (It is; it’s black powder).

    Under federal law. (And only the gun. The ammunition for it is still prohibited to certain persons — but I doubt that you’re a felon or a wifebeater). It can still be a short-barreled shotgun in a state which includes blackpowder in its definition of firearm like Illinois, and I believe others (Minnesota, for example, includes everything short of spitballs from a soda straw). Is it a smoothbore?

    nk (dbc370)

  223. They’re doing it… for the children, narciso. And for the Greater Good.

    Colonel Haiku (1be04f)

  224. Didn’t they look cute together on MTP, gag.

    narciso (3fec35)

  225. nk, if you want a label to apply to me something like “yankee air pirate” or “capitalist lackey running dog” will do.

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  226. 231. …Maybe the dog is looking for a temperature that’s somewhere in between what’s inside the house and outside. Maybe you could create a drafty spot.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (ca4c0f) — 12/15/2013 @ 6:16 am

    He was definitely looking for someplace that was between the temperature inside and the temperature outside. I believe it’s called “Florida.”

    Steve57 (137dd8)

  227. Not much gets Boehner worked up. He is laid back to a fault. But the revelation that he and his fellow lawmakers were essentially pawns in a game played by agitators accountable to no one was too much for him to stomach.

    Elissa, I believe DRJ’s contention was that the reported dissension expressed by pols like Boehner towards factions of the Republican Party or right-leaning people (Tea Party, etc) was calculated, or at least sincerely heated, while your contention was that it was not. If it was the former (ie, a calculated game), than I guess you’re correct, since I don’t believe the fury from Boehner was triggered by a strategy of his or like-minded Republicans. Or I should hope not, since that generally would play right into the hands of the left and further alienate crucial segments of conservatism. Then again, if he isn’t guilty of being too squishy on his own part, he’d have total sympathy for the POV of staunch conservatives and would have responded accordingly.

    For example, I can totally relate to the disdain that forumers like Dustin, etc, have towards finger-in-the-air Republicans and would never dismiss the value of their anger. The only thing I can do is point out how many of our fellow Americans have become increasingly (and idiotically) liberal over the decades, which is a reality we’re forced to deal with.

    washingtonpost.com, Dan Balz, November 14: With a few words that reflected a mountain of frustration, House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) has escalated the ongoing struggle over the future of the Republican Party. Whether it proves to be a truly crystallizing moment for a party still trying to find its way after its defeat in 2012 is the critical question.

    For much of the year, the Republican Party has been in a deep hole, its credibility diminished, its image at historical lows and its direction heavily influenced by conservative tea party insurgents and their allied outside groups. This fall’s government shutdown only made the hole deeper. Boehner seems to have decided it’s time to stop digging.

    The speaker’s blast at outside groups that were calling for the defeat of the bipartisan budget agreement, even before it was unveiled, has reverberated widely. Among other things, Boehner declared that these organizations, which also advocated the strategy that led to the shutdown, have “lost all credibility” because of their extreme positions and incendiary tactics.

    Boehner’s comments did not trigger a Republican civil war, as some have suggested. The reality is that the internal conflict has been underway for years… Now it’s Paul Ryan who is the disappointment. Ryan has been the intellectual leader of conservatives in the House and, more broadly, in his party. Now he is seen as something of a traitor to the cause for negotiating the bipartisan budget deal. But the GOP establishment has its own list of grievances and is threatening to fight back. Establishment Republicans view the purity police on the right with disdain. They believe in big-tent Republicanism and pragmatism when it comes to governing.

    GOP strategist John Feehery said the fact that so many Republicans voted for the budget agreement in the House was “hugely significant” and gives members an opportunity to begin to do some repair work. “It allows Congress to do its job,” he said. “They can get the appropriations process going, go home and talk about accomplishments and get their ratings above 10 percent.”

    ^ I might have bought into the idea of “pragmatism” or kum-ba-yah politics decades ago, before the mid-point of the ideological spectrum had shifted so far left. But not today. However, from a purely tactical standpoint, this quagmire has to be laid at the feet of the many Americans who’ve pushed this country to the left. They’re the ones who are infecting the US with a hearty dose of Euro-sclerosis and Mexico-itis, and sensible people (in the Republican Party, etc) are forced to do a high-wire act.

    Conservative Americans are now like the responsible, mature adults of the family who have to deal with all the bratty children, referring to the millions of liberals and squishes out there who have and are turning the US into a city of Detroit writ large, combined with a bit of France, a touch of Argentina, and a big dose of Mexico.

    Mark (58ea35)

  228. Feehery was Hastert’s major domo, and we know how well that was handled, it’s important to have a scorecard to keep track of the players.

    narciso (3fec35)

  229. “The only thing I can do is point out how many of our fellow Americans have become increasingly (and idiotically) liberal over the decades, which is a reality we’re forced to deal with.”

    Mark – Constantly pointing it out, as you do, does not really do a whole lot in terms of addressing that reality of the country needs to budget and govern going forward. It merely bludgeons the obvious to death.

    I fail to see why people expect Boehner to act like a permanent human spear catcher from both the left and right. If those subjecting party leadership to criticism are such special, delicate snowflakes they cannot survive some blowback, they should temper their criticism or exit the business. Bring out the fainting couches!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  230. Yes, daley, who was called an accessory to murder, compared to terrorists, klansmen, et al, as opposed to appreciate it’s our votes that got him from the back to the front bench,

    the link in the Daily Caller, from someone who’s seen this for 30 years is more instructive,

    narciso (3fec35)

  231. “Walking the Prop”
    The act of clearing the cylinders of radial aircraft engines of accumulated oil and fuel before attempting to start them – particularly on cold mornings – to prevent breakage of a piston, rod, or crankshaft unable to compress the fluid on the compression stroke.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  232. “Yes, daley, who was called an accessory to murder, compared to terrorists, klansmen, et al, as opposed to appreciate it’s our votes that got him from the back to the front bench”

    narciso – Yes as a reward for winning the House with Tea Party support he is supposed to remain a silent pin cushion.

    What kind of crap is that?

    That makes no sense. It’s not even an argument.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  233. Teapartiers should just STFU and vote how they are told to.

    JD (5c1832)

  234. narciso – I don’t even have to go as deep as the DailyCaller link. It’s basic human behavior. People get pushed, they push back.

    The Tea Party want to be able to say anything the want about leadership with impunity and believe they are entitled to because of 2010. Real life does not require leadership to shut up and take everything that is thrown its way.

    It’s another silly argument within the stupid party and it’s too bad delicate Tea Party feelings have been hurt.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  235. Shut.Up.And.Take.Our.Abuse.Orange.Man.

    When we want you to have an opinion, we will issue you one.

    The Tea Party

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  236. Mark – Constantly pointing it out, as you do, does not really do a whole lot in terms of addressing that reality of the country needs to budget and govern going forward.

    daleyrocks, but the fact there have been a few occasions when both DRJ and Elissa have been uncomfortable delving into the gut political biases of people (eg, Sammy F, or matters related to GLBT) or describing them in plain, candid terms is a sign that the obvious — for any number of reasons — will be treated like the issue of bad breath or body odor. Moreover, there’s still the matter of what exactly is at the root of Boehner’s reaction, and I’m not sure if it’s pure ego or ideological conflict that is fueling his anger towards the Tea Party or rightwingers.

    Another thing: even though someone like a Karl Rove is supposedly such an expert on politics and certain strategies (and, in general, he is), the very fact he assumed many Latinos in America were leaning to the left because of the immigration issue — therefore failing to note something as fundamental as just how idiotically leftwing much of the Mexican electorate is, and has been for generations — indicates even the so-called experts may need reality constantly pointed out to them.

    Mark (58ea35)

  237. “daleyrocks, but the fact there have been a few occasions when both DRJ and Elissa have been uncomfortable delving into the gut political biases of people (eg, Sammy F, or matters related to GLBT) or describing them in plain, candid terms is a sign that the obvious — for any number of reasons — will be treated like the issue of bad breath or body odor.”

    Mark – Then there is the matter of your own unease delving into the roots of your political and social biases when you respond by trying to deflect the discussion on to others as you did with the above comment, which was completely irrelevant to my point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  238. I have no idea what leadership your talking about, daleyrocks.
    Leadership is not what the speaker has shown, and Mitch is no better. So you expect shills like me to continue to to the obama bow down.

    mg (31009b)

  239. You make me smile, Mark. Big time. I think deep down you mean well. You just keep right on repeating yourself and pointing out the obvious and “delving into” and “observing” and “analyzing” and obsessing. Perhaps someone new to the threads has missed the previous 125 times you’ve said the same things about`Sammy and FDR and Nidal Hasan and bathhouse Barry and Detroit and Argentina.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  240. Then there is the matter of your own unease delving into the roots of your political and social biases when you respond by trying to deflect the discussion on to others as you did with the above comment

    daleyrocks, I don’t have any unease about what motivates my opinions. My gut biases are of the right. However, I will say that I was less conservative years ago and gave more benefit of the doubt to liberals than they ever deserved. I admit to being rather naive in my younger years about just how grotesque and contradictory the left really is, and awhile back would have mused “well, they do mean well.” Now I truly believe that liberalism springs forth from a lazy, guilty conscience that’s merely a cheap facade for supposed humaneness and big-heartedness.

    Mark (58ea35)

  241. Perhaps someone new to the threads has missed the previous 125 times you’ve said the same things about`Sammy and FDR and Nidal Hasan and bathhouse Barry and Detroit and Argentina.

    Quite seriously, elissa, do such basic points ever get expressed in most (or practically all) public conversations, in discussions you or others will have amongst family members, friends, acquaintances? I ask that because I think a fairly large majority of people still don’t draw a clear connection between the corrosive and corrupt nature of liberalism and the many problems affecting today’s society. Or the true nature of liberal biases in general. Hell, I don’t even hear such basic points about left-leaning biases raised in most debates on Fox News.

    If such bullet points were really understood by most Americans, Obama wouldn’t have been elected in 2008, he certainly wouldn’t have been re-elected in 2012, and he — most certainly, most definitely — would be blamed for ongoing economic problems instead of George W Bush.

    Mark (58ea35)

  242. Do you also post on other blogs, both left and right leaning Mark? You know, to spread the wealth around and to increase understanding of leftism?

    elissa (0c4f80)

  243. elissa,

    Boehner condemned the Tea Party groups, he also said “They are misleading their followers.” Thus, he effectively discounts not only those groups but also any people who support them.

    Why would Boehner listen to anyone who agrees with those groups after basically describing them as stupid, naive, or brainwashed?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  244. It reminds me of the way you treat Mark.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  245. Let’s put it another way, if the deal was actually good would the Times on both coasts, be crowing about it, occam’s razor.

    narciso (3fec35)

  246. 244. “Walking the Prop”
    The act of clearing the cylinders of radial aircraft engines of accumulated oil and fuel before attempting to start them – particularly on cold mornings – to prevent breakage of a piston, rod, or crankshaft unable to compress the fluid on the compression stroke.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 12/15/2013 @ 9:21 am

    Yes, vitally important I’m told as liquids tended to pool up in the lower cylinders. Even in a warm climate it would take 15 minutes minimum to start and warm up a radial engine. In all weather conditions the engine had to be seduced into starting. It typically wasn’t a job allowed to the pilot (although they could do it) but was reserved for the groundcrew. The guy with the fire extinguisher was an especially important member of the team. Once the engine caught and you moved the mixture to full rich (at which point the flames would stop shooting out of the exhaust and the guy with the fire extinguisher could start to relax) then you had to let the engine idle until it reached its operating temperature. After a scan of all the gauges showed pressures and temperatures were a glowing green “go” you had to run it up to full power. Which was what the pilot was going to need to get it off the deck. A blown engine on take-off meant at best a cold swim, at worst the ship was going to run over you.

    Onboard ship running the plane up to full power wasn’t much of a big deal as the aircraft was chocked and chained. On land it took real leg strength to stand on the brakes as the plane captain scanned all the gauges and confirmed everything was copacetic. Then they could power down, shut her off, and turn her over to the pilot.

    You can see a little of this here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HT_PClBc8vE

    Vought-Sikorsky OS2U Kingfishers on ASW patrol over the Tasman Sea. Likely Aussies.

    You can see by the way these gents are dressed this isn’t a cold climate. Still, you couldn’t take shortcuts when starting and warming up these things.

    Steve57 (96df60)

  247. All politics is local but it’s also PR, so in that sense I agree with elissa that there is theater involved. But I’m not sure she’s reading it right.

    We know that Boehner and his staff know the mood of the House Republicans because that’s part of their jobs. Let’s assume Boehner knew that a vast majority of the House Republicans don’t want another government shutdown, including those that were in favor of it the first time. He would know that if the members were briefed on the deal and Boehner’s aides counted the votes, as they always do.

    Isn’t it possible Boehner used this vote as a theatrical opportunity to take a shot at Tea Party conservatives, knowing that the vote would appear to be a validation of his criticism?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  248. As opposed to the ‘Main Enemy’ I forget the Russian term;

    http://twitchy.com/2013/12/15/gasping-quote-of-the-decade-john-boehners-most-ludicrous-statement-yet/

    narciso (3fec35)

  249. I have a hard time believing team elite will continue in control. Boehner and his ilk should switch parties. That would solve many issues.

    mg (31009b)

  250. Team R’s leadership is stagnant and corrupt they need to rip the pasty white barnacles off and get real leaders what are suited to dealing with our pathetic cowardly little country’s severe, humiliating problems

    this is not you boehnerpoof

    this is not you mcconnellwhore

    this is not you meghan’s coward p.o.s. daddy

    this is not you paul ryan

    this is not you marco rubio el cubano mas authentico

    you people make me sick

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  251. 256. …Why would Boehner listen to anyone who agrees with those groups after basically describing them as stupid, naive, or brainwashed?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/15/2013 @ 11:57 am

    Essentially Boehner talks about conservatives the same way Obama does.

    I once thought Obama was lying about how Republicans would privately confide to him that they were being held hostage by the TEA Party wing of the party. Now, not so much. They all live in the same inside-the-beltway bubble. I’ve lost track of how many times Obama and Reid have said they feel sorry for John Boehner because he has to deal with those right wing nut jobs. And I’ve also lost track of how many times John Boehner has talked about how he has a good working relationship with Barack Obama.

    We send politicians to represent us to DC. Instead they come back and represent DC to us, and they think we’re the ones who are screwed up.

    Maybe we are the ones that are screwed up. Arizona, South Carolina, what the hell? How many more times are you going to send these national embarrassments back to the Senate? Did you see what a disgrace they made of themselves when they took their act on the road and drove their klown kar to Egypt?

    They were so clueless they managed to piss everybody off. The protesters, the military, the MB, the moderates, the Copts. Everybody was disgusted. The best description I read of their trip was that they were walking cans of gasoline, and every time they opened their mouths the belched and started another fire.

    And this is our A team. The preezy asked them to go on that excursion. Because of course McCain and Graham are our foreign policy gurus in the legislature.

    It just goes to show you that the more time you spend inside the beltway, the less you know about the world outside the beltway. And they aren’t interested in learning. McCain hired a disgraced academic fraud to be his special adviser on the Syria. What’s more, if he wants another term as a Senator he’ll no doubt get it.

    But then this country did elect a guy to be President based upon his foreign policy credentials of having a compelling personal narrative, living in Indonesia as a small child, and having studied international relations at Columbia.

    Just how the **** do you live in Indonesia as a child and grow up unable to speak anything except English? Barack Obama, international man of mystery, has no second language. He proves that every time he tries to pronounce a Haitian sailor’s name or the word “corpse-man.” He thinks Austrian is a language.

    But we elected President Selfie twice nonetheless. Not me personally, but we as in the electorate. And many of the people who voted for him are convinced that he’s restored us to a position of respect in the world. To the dismay of our allies and to the joy of our enemies.

    Perhaps stupid and condescending are what we want in our political class. We keep voting for it. And yes, western Pennsylvania, I’m talking to you racist bitter clingers. Who will elect Democrats no matter how many times they casually and quite blatantly insult you.

    So when you think about it, a man with the kind of contempt for his base that John Boehner has for conservatives may just be the leader the GOP deserves.

    Steve57 (96df60)

  252. Peter O’Toole, R.I.P.

    kaf (81bcc7)

  253. Senator John McCain is now in Kiev, Ukraine, and so is Victoria Nuland.

    Even the oligarchs – the older ones anyway – don’t want to come under the domination of Russia, because Putin could take it all away.

    Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b)

  254. Secretary of State John Kerry is now in what used to be called Saigon. He sluffed off a qwuestion about how his opposition to the Voetnam War influenced him. What he said was all a lie anyway, so the less he says about it the better.

    He says now something to the effect you learn something from it but not everything. I think the whole thing has just put into the memory hole.

    Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b)

  255. Comment by Steve57 (96df60) — 12/15/2013 @ 1:52 pm

    Barack Obama, international man of mystery, has no second language. He proves that every time he tries to pronounce a Haitian sailor’s name or the word “corpse-man.” He thinks Austrian is a language.

    Corpseman? He doesn’t pronounce the word “dogs” right either.

    Maybe he has corrected it by now, but he almost always pronounces his s’s as an “s” and never “z”

    Somewhere, he must have had a non-native English speaking speech teacher.

    Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b)

  256. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/15/2013 @ 11:57 am

    Boehner condemned the Tea Party groups, he also said “They are misleading their followers.” Thus, he effectively discounts not only those groups but also any people who support them.

    He was not talking about “Tea Party” groups at all. Where once did he use the word “Tea Party?”

    The news media said he was talking about the Tea Party, BUT NOT BOEHNER.

    I think Paul Ryan seemed to think he meant Tea Party groups and disagreed with him.

    Many members of the House Republican caucus consider themselves to be Tea Party members, and this is what he said to them:

    They are not fighting for conservative principles. They are not fighting for conservative policy. They are fighting to expand their lists, raise more money and grow their organizations, and they are using you to do it. It’s ridiculous.

    This was in a closed door meeting of rank-and-file House Republicans on Wednesday, according to the New York Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/14/us/politics/boehners-jabs-at-activist-right-show-gop-shift.html?pagewanted=all

    He meant organizations like Heritage Action for America and the Senate Conservatives Fund. When did Boehner ever say anything about the “Tea Party?”

    Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b)

  257. ==Isn’t it possible Boehner used this vote as a theatrical opportunity to take a shot at Tea Party conservatives, knowing that the vote would appear to be a validation of his criticism?==

    Yes it is possible. It is entirely possible. Anything is possible. Politics make strange bedfellows. Politicians as a rule and radio hosts as a rule are very ego centric. Coalitions come and coalitions go. Intra- party and geographic alliances are formed and dissolved. PACs and K street organizations raise big bucks. Definitions change. I guess I have to ask are all us self professed Conservatives automatically deemed Tea Party conservatives now, or are there still philosophical and tactical differences for governing which are allowable within the Conservative and Tea family? Is this possibly why some commenters here seem to take greater umbrage at Boehner’s speakership or hear his words in a much more personally negative way than others do?

    It seems to be incredibly important to you, DRJ, that I agree with you about this particular political moment, or that I hear and react to the Boehner statement the same way as you do. I honestly don’t completely get this.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  258. 266. Senator John McCain is now in Kiev, Ukraine, and so is Victoria Nuland.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b) — 12/15/2013 @ 2:03 pm

    I hope somebody duct taped their mouths shut.

    Steve57 (96df60)

  259. Elissa – i would never speak on behalf of DRJ, but I suspect the idea that you don’t get why a segment of conservatives are so bothered by Boehner’s slams is a functional metaphor for how the Team R in general has treated those that dare be conservative, going back to McCain, Romney, etc.

    JD (5c1832)

  260. Maybe they can hire fake sign language guy so that absolutely nobody understands a thing they’re saying, as well. That way nobody gets their intelligence insulted.

    Steve57 (96df60)

  261. I can hardly wait until John McCain releases his official photographs posing with “my friends” the secret police torturers and other wanted criminals.

    Steve57 (96df60)

  262. Gee, sorry to be such a dunce. But since I dare to be conservative in the world myself, I think I asked a relevant question. This blog has never been about lockstep conformity. I have not to the best of my knowledge asked DRJ or you or anyone else to disavow your feelings about Boehner and I accept you’re angry. All I’ve tried to do is to explain why I (or others) might not be as offended– and based on what I understand the genesis of the comment to have been, why I didn’t hear it as an across the board insult to individual American conservatives.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  263. being “conservative” is trite and not a little awkward with all that three legged stool baggage and et cetera

    I just want people in charge who act like they have a wee lil problem with the rise of fascism in this country

    Paul Ryan Boehnerpoof McConnellwhore and Meghan’s coward daddy, they do not act this way

    and I have noted this down in my notebook

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  264. well which part is exceptable, the cut on military pensions, the language that gives Searchlight Harry,
    ‘flexibility’ when it comes to taxes, there’s a pony somewhere but I don’t see it.

    narciso (3fec35)

  265. I did not mean to suggest you were a dunce, Elissa, and if that is what you took from my words, I apologize.

    JD (5c1832)

  266. It’s a crap sammich, Narciso. I’ve not seen any person on this blog claim otherwise.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  267. Boehner suggested otherwise. And lashed out at those that dared to note that.

    JD (5c1832)

  268. Not to worry JD. But thanks.

    elissa (0c4f80)

  269. I am beginning to sense that the schism within Team at is more real and pervasive than I had thought previously. Our infra-family discussions clearly show that the issues internally ain’t going away.

    JD (5c1832)

  270. The Stache speaks truth, but the Lugars the Murkowskis, the Voinivich were all too willing to throw him to the wolves, because who knows why or really cares,

    narciso (3fec35)

  271. It isn’t just Boehner. It seems the establishment Republicans are all piling on.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/huckabee-scolds-the-tea-party-groups-politics-is-not-theology/

    Former Arkansas Governor and Fox News Channel host Mike Huckabee weighed in on the escalating feud between establishment Republican politicians and conservative activist groups on Saturday. Asked for his thoughts on House Speaker John Boehner’s (R-OH) admonition of the idealized purism advocated by some outside groups, Huckabee sympathized with Boehner saying that governing is more difficult than activism and “politics is not theology.”

    I really need more condescending lectures from people like this. I have never found this joker appealing as a candidate. Does he actually stand for something?

    Let’s face it. These types of pols will never repeal Obamacare. And that’s just for starters. We can expect more lectures about how tough governing is and how we can’t get everything we want in these deals these clowns are so eager to make with liberals. Which means conservatives won’t get anything. Liberals will be forced to “settle” for getting ninety percent of what they demand, knowing they can always come back later for the remaining ten.

    These people have allowed the left to define them. Even more, they’ve internalized the message. They believe what the left says about them. They’re like whipped dogs who desperately want to lick the whip hand. They’re angry at people like Cruz for making them take the blame for the government shutdown. Not realizing that they eagerly embraced the blame. They could have made the case for going to the mat to stop Obamacare. But they can’t even make the case. That’s difficult to do when you have no core principles.

    So just be ready. They’re saying now that the argument with the TEA Party was merely over strategy, not objectives. Really? When leading figures in the GOP are working their butts off to make Obamacare happen? People like John Kasich, who expanded Medicaid even though he had to do an end run around his legislature which opposed the move. His reason was telling. He said his “Christian compassion” compelled him to make the move.

    Nobody who thinks it’s Christian and compassionate to rob some people to give other third parties a benefit will ever repeal this law once it’s implemented. You can mark it down on the calendar for January 2017. Even if the GOP controls the entire legislative branch and wins the presidency, their “Christian compassion” will force them to try to make work once the MFM and the institutional left starts howling about children dying in the streets without Medicaid. It won’t matter if they actually are dying in emergency rooms with Medicaid since doctors can’t afford to accept it.

    Maybe the GOP will pass the “Christian Compassion Medical Servitude Act” and force doctors to operate at a loss.

    Steve57 (96df60)

  272. Senator John McCain is now in Kiev, Ukraine, and so is Victoria Nuland.

    An opportunity for the NYT to start a new rumor; except, they probably like Victoria Nuland, so they won’t.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  273. Huckabee the answer to Limbaugh, or so Cumulus thought, I don’t know what the question was, but they should have found out,

    narciso (3fec35)

  274. Yes, well it’s a nice gesture on his part, but Volodya will have Yanukovich, close down ‘this lively debate, just the same.

    narciso (3fec35)

  275. I really need more condescending lectures from people like this.

    How bad is Huckabee?

    Well he had me feeling a touch hopeful for Romney if that says anything. He’s the worst kind of Republican because he is a sheer dumb populist.

    Dustin (9f75cd)

  276. the problem he’s a statist, he doesn’t really mind government telling you what to do, he’s all too
    accepting of criminal’s foibles, re the 1000 pardons and commutations, he doesn’t mind the bullying of
    private persons, re the first lady’s anti junk food campaign, that’s just a few of his foibles,

    narciso (3fec35)

  277. Frankly I don’t trust either side, the Saudis or the Iranians.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303949504579260510644966826

    narciso (3fec35)

  278. 285. Piling may make the apparatchiks feel good while they can’t see the field or the score board.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-15/peter-schiff-bashes-feeble-and-fictitious-budget-deal

    Now that the contract is up we’ll prolly cancel the satellite soon. Kiddo doesn’t get Phineas and Ferb during the approved window anyway.

    An overwhelming presence on the tube will soon be a total waste.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  279. YouTube, The PhineasMaster12 channel. Wink, wink.

    nk (dbc370)

  280. 283. The Whigs have proved so completely inadequate during the worst stretch of government in American history there is no ‘turning it around’.

    Just as no one believes Schlong’s pivots to the economy, no one outside DC believes the Whigs(e.g. Mr. 57) have the memory of integrity in their DNA.

    Obviously, they still kinda believe they could make a contest of a national election but even a contest for the Senate majority is rough sledding and only getting rockier.

    America cannot stomach a concerted loser.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  281. 293. Thanks for the tip.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  282. Keep in mind, Lincoln was a Whig, Gary,

    narciso (3fec35)

  283. If all progressive republicans would switch parties, conservative turnout would be larger than ever.

    mg (31009b)

  284. 296. And he never looked back.

    Unlike the dogs that return to their vomit.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  285. elissa,

    It’s not important that you agree with me. In fact, I’m convinced that there are a lot of things we will never agree on, and that’s fine.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  286. 297. That’s the plan, don’t keep it a secret.

    When the Whigs come to understand that high 30% results are just teasers, affording only false hopes, the moderates may consider reapprochement with conservatives.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  287. I’m sorry you take disagreement so personally but your comments often make for an interesting discussion, because they highlight what I think are important points.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  288. I would venture to say the racist, homophobic, scum of the earth tea baggers could influence the 18-29 year olds to join the republican party before the elite g.o.p.

    mg (31009b)

  289. 302. I agree completely, along with a goodly number of the newly pensionless working class.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-14/yet-another-massive-nail-dollars-coffin

    The clock is ticking. A great deal of ‘wealth’ is going to evaporate with the alarm.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  290. If you were young and dumb who could speak your language?
    The teary-eyed John? or the passion of a Cruz or Paul?

    mg (31009b)

  291. Keep in mind, Lincoln was a Whig, Gary,

    until he wasn’t!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  292. 273. Comment by Steve57 (96df60) — 12/15/2013 @ 3:12 pm

    Maybe they can hire fake sign language guy so that absolutely nobody understands a thing they’re saying, as well. That way nobody gets their intelligence insulted.

    I think his psychiatric condition is also fake. It’s a way to escape responsibility. There’s a whole story to tell. And this was not his first time interpreteing and there were even complaints about him.

    Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b)

  293. These people have allowed the left to define them. Even more, they’ve internalized the message. They believe what the left says about them.

    Elissa, et al, if you’ve come across the snippet of Steve57′s post above, and if you agree with his take on things — and I think you’d have to — then you’ll understand why I don’t think the differences between the left and right can ever be overstated or repeated too much.

    In alignment with the regrettable phenomenon that he described, I saw an opinion poll today where even though a large majority of respondents dislike Obamacare, a majority of them still say Democrats will handle healthcare better than Republicans.

    Cognitive dissonance (or a nicer way of saying “stupid”) much?

    Mark (58ea35)


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