Patterico's Pontifications

11/12/2013

ObamaCare Enrollee Data Rolling In — Here Is How They Will Lie to You

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:21 am



The numbers are coming in — and it’s looking like fewer than 50,000 people have enrolled in the federal exchange and about 100,000 people in the country at large. Whenever official numbers are released, bet on two things. First, as Allahpundit says in the link above:

Fearless prediction: They’re not going to release the demographic data. The only way to make these numbers look more dismal than they are is if it turns out that many, or even most, of the 100,000 who’ve enrolled are older people or people with preexisting conditions.

Second, they are going to count as “enrollees” people who have a plan sitting in their shopping cart, whether it has been purchased or not:

When the Obama administration releases health law enrollment figures later this week, though, it will use a more expansive definition. It will count people who have purchased a plan as well as those who have a plan sitting in their online shopping cart but have not yet paid.
“In the data that will be released this week, ‘enrollment’ will measure people who have filled out an application and selected a qualified health plan in the marketplace,” said an administration official, who requested anonymity to frankly describe the methodology.

I have about ten items sitting in my shopping cart at Amazon right now. They have been moved to a “save for later” category, I guess because I have not bought them and may never buy them. Some of them have been there for months. When I check out with other items, I get little notifications telling me that the price has changed on some of them. I sincerely doubt Amazon counts these items in their sales figures, and if they did, that would be fraud.

These people are lying to you, constantly. Speaking of which:

For those of you who were not reading over the weekend, let me exit this post by offering you a chance to participate in this READER POLL!!!

Should the GOP allow Obama to delay the mandate if he asks for a delay?
pollcode.com free polls 

82 Responses to “ObamaCare Enrollee Data Rolling In — Here Is How They Will Lie to You”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Just heard some lying b@$t@rd was claiming that the Republicans don’t have an alternative. Paul Ryan has a plan that has been languishing in the Senate for nearly a year.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  3. Okay, so I voted in the poll this time, but I maintain that the question is purely hypothetical — because Obama will NEVER ask for a delay. Even if all of the healthcare.gov servers literally melt down, he will just order the government printing office to run off 10 million paper applications and send them to post offices along with the 2013 tax forms.

    Icy (9332cf)

  4. At least the fraud part is up and running, smooth as silk.

    I predict a repeal. Period.

    Patricia (be0117)

  5. 3.Okay, so I voted in the poll this time, but I maintain that the question is purely hypothetical — because Obama will NEVER ask for a delay. Even if all of the healthcare.gov servers literally melt down, he will just order the government printing office to run off 10 million paper applications and send them to post offices along with the 2013 tax forms.

    December 15th is the cutoff date to enroll for healthcare plans. That’s little more than a month to complete the process. I don’t think it’s enough time for millions of applications to be processed.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  6. You really can’t repeal it without something to replace it, can you?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  7. burn baby burn!

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  8. Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:01 am

    December 15th is the cutoff date to enroll for healthcare plans.

    It’s the approximate cutoff date in order for coverage to start on January 1. (This is an important date because that’s when some individual health insurance policies, and the state high risk pools, are no longer in effect.)

    There is another cutoff date: There is supposed to be an annual enrollment period. The annual enrollment period this year – the first time – is extended, so that it goes from October 1, 2013 through March 31, 2014 – 6 months or 182 days, half a year. I think it is intended to be about six weeks starting in the fall of 2014. Something like about October 15 to December 7, 2014 but I may be wrong. The idea of limiting the enrollment period is so that people shouldn’t wait until they get a bad diagnosis.

    To avoid any tax/penalty you are supposed not to have more than 3 consecutive months without insurance. (The penalty is prorated, by the way, so missing 3 month would get you a quarter of the penalty amount.)

    That would have given you an effective cut off date for avoiding the penalty/tax of enrollment by about February 15, as policies purchased later would have started April 1 or even May 1.

    I am not sure what Obama did – maybe all policies purchased by March 31 will be effective April 1, even if processing is completed later?

    Anyway, now he says you can avoid a penalty even if you purchase by midnight March 31, at which time open enrollment ceases.

    Sammy Finkelman (d7b491)

  9. Will they also include in their numbers those who signed up for Medicaid?

    Amazed_476 (44be7e)

  10. It’s the approximate cutoff date in order for coverage to start on January 1.

    That’s what I meant because you DON’T want your coverage to lapse, especially if you have a pre-existing condition with expensive drugs/treatments.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  11. You really can’t repeal it without something to replace it, can you?

    Yes, you can. The system in place on the day before this atrocity was passed was better than what we have now.

    JD (5c1832)

  12. That’s right, JD. When you compare the numbers of people who could not get health CARE or health INSURANCE, on both counts the status quo was superior.

    Patricia (be0117)

  13. 9. Amazed_476 (44be7e) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:32 am

    Will they also include in their numbers those who signed up for Medicaid?

    Although state totals in the past have included enrollments in Medicaid, the 50,000 figure here that was reported in the Wall Street Journal today is for “private insurance plans.”

    (They had had a target of 500,000 by the end of October. This is one tenth as much a week into November.)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  14. What do we know about Obama? We know his closest advisers are Valerie Jarrett, and possibly his wife Michelle. And now we know he trusted Nancy-Ann DeParle to lead Kathleen Sebelius through the debacle of the health care roll-out. Don’t forget Hillary Clinton’s disaster at State. It looks like women are running much of his Administration, and not very well.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  15. You really can’t repeal it without something to replace it, can you?
    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:03 am

    — Not if ‘you’ are a Democrat or a progressive Republican, you can’t.

    Icy (daf735)

  16. Completed applications in all 50 states (probably that should be 56 states and territories – the 57th delegation to the Democratic convention in 2008 of course was Democrats Abroad) is 700,000.
    The federal site is for 36 states.

    That’s only applications, not committments, but might include all applications where financial data indicates someone qualifies for Medicaid because no furtehr action may be required.

    87,177 of that 700,000 federal/state total is from Maryland, but the Maryland total is inflated because most of that is people currently in a Maryland state health care program who will be automatically transferred to Medicaid on January 1.

    So that does look like 80% or so of the 700,000 would qualify for Medicaid. 50,000, or 7% of the 700,000, is private insurance plans purchased through healthcare.gov.

    Most of the biggest states have their own website, so 20% doesn’t look far off for the percent of applications who purchased private insurance.

    A lot of that 20%, of course should be people with subsidized co-pays and/or reduced premiums.

    The original projection was that that would be 48% of those purchasing private insurance, and that 52% of those purchasing private insurance would not get any subsidies.

    As it is, that may not hit 20%, although all we have are anecdotes.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  17. For negotiations with Iran, it’s Wendy Sherman.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  18. I am not sure what Obama did – maybe all policies purchased by March 31 will be effective April 1, even if processing is completed later?
    Anyway, now he says you can avoid a penalty even if you purchase by midnight March 31, at which time open enrollment ceases.
    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d7b491) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:30 am

    — Yes on the latter, No on the former, Sammy. Only the deadline for avoiding the penalty has been changed; there is no mandated effective date for coverage.

    Icy (daf735)

  19. DRJ, thank you for giving me my chuckle for today! It nicely counterbalances Finkelman’s Neverending Quest to justify Obama’s “57 states” flub.

    Icy (daf735)

  20. When living in China I learned to not believe any number published by the central government. In this way, and in several important others, the US Federal Government is increasingly resembling the practices, entitlement, and antics of what I witnessed in China. Very disturbing.

    LTMG (9a1240)

  21. 440,000 new Medicaid enrollees in 10 states. Success!!!

    Those 100,000 exchange enrollees — the extra ‘juice’ from their premiums will cover that cost; right?

    Icy (daf735)

  22. Bill Clinton simultaneously undermines Obama and launches Hillary 2016:

    Clinton: Keep the government’s promose and let people keep their coverage

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  23. Yes, you can. The system in place on the day before this atrocity was passed was better than what we have now.

    I’m not being clear enough. I’ll blame the pain medication I’m on. Those plans/coverage that existed prior to 404Care no longer exist. I think I read somewhere that insurance companies have to submit their policies/plans to individual state insurance commissions prior to offering them. Do you expect the insurance companies to eat the cost? It’s a disaster.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  24. 9. 14. Comment by Amazed_476 (44be7e) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:32 am

    Will they also include in their numbers those who signed up for Medicaid?

    Now I see. You know why the total of 50,000 enrollments in the federal exchange is only for applications for private insurance? (that got at least as far as the shopping cart)

    The portal to the state Medicaid programs is not working!!

    The number of people who have enrolled for Medicaid through the federal exchange (healthcar.gov) is…

    ZERO.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/12/us/problems-with-federal-health-portal-also-stymie-medicaid-enrollment.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all

    That door has been closed for the last six weeks, with the federal government unable to transfer its files to state Medicaid programs as it is supposed to do…..If the exchange finds them potentially eligible for Medicaid, it may be faster for them to file separate applications with a state Medicaid office than to wait for the federal government to transfer their files to the state….In Ohio, Greg Moody, director of the governor’s Office of Health Transformation, said that the state had begun using a new online Medicaid eligibility system on Oct. 1 to coincide with the opening of the federal website. But, he said, the federal exchange cannot send application files to or accept them from the state.

    “This has caused some measure of frustration,” Mr. Moody said. “Our system is ready and waiting to accomplish those transfers when the federal system is ready.”

    Stephanie A. Goodman, a spokeswoman for the Texas Health and Human Services Commission, said the transfers were supposed to start on Oct. 1. “That date slipped to Nov. 1 because of all the technical glitches” with the federal exchange, she said, and state officials believe it may be postponed again to Jan. 1.

    In addition, Ms. Goodman said, the federal exchange has not tested its links to the state, so “we do not know if we will get the information we need” to determine eligibility.

    Kelly Gunderson, a spokeswoman for the Tennessee Medicaid program, said: “We are not getting files from the federal government. Those handoffs are just not occurring.”

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  25. Yes, ACD! Because disaster.

    No, we should spell out what we think needs to be put in place.

    Colonel Haiku (32b8a6)

  26. Feel teh Hope! Feel teh EPIC FAIL.

    Colonel Haiku (32b8a6)

  27. We can drone teh AQ and sleep soundly because they’ve enrolled in Medicaid! Win, win.

    Colonel Haiku (32b8a6)

  28. The easiest, quickest fastest thing that could be done is to allow anyone who had his insurance policy or state high risk pool discontinued to enroll in Medicare for six months or a year at the same price he or she was paying, plus maybe 5%. (this would not however be a good long term solution)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  29. Do you expect the insurance companies to eat the cost? It’s a disaster.

    I don’t think racing around like Team R does during campaign season following the Dem lead of “I have a plan” is a wise strategy. In fact, I think it is foolish.

    JD (dd7458)

  30. 28. They didn’t enroll in Medicaid! That part of healthcare.gov is not working. And the insurance companies are processing applications manually, not by computer.New Yorker cartoon showing a possible way to fix Healthcare.gov

    In this illustration, a computer technician has in the past couple of hours installed a 360K floppy disk reader in this computer. Most of the tools used to do this are removed, but a hammer and a large screwdriver remain on the table. They tried loading the government’s copy of DBase III (which will be used to create a universal format for transmission of data between different computer systems) but there was an error reading the disk. Now they have an unlabeled backup copy, and Kathleen Sebelius is crossing her fingers, because she is afraid that either it is the wrong disk, or it can’t be read. President Obama a is holding a government issued cellphone – the only cellphone not disapproved for secure communications – to give the go-ahead notice that this worked, and arrange for someone to come with a Zip drive and copy the program.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  31. Washing our hands of it is not a wise course of action.

    Colonel Haiku (fc8d37)

  32. JD,

    I suspect a lot of people would be fine with letting the medical and the insurance communities take the hit on this. I think it would be short-sighted to do that, but those industries don’t have much good will right now.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  33. You really can’t repeal it without something to replace it, can you?

    In the sense that Obamacare burned the status quo ante to the ground to leave as few alternatives as possible, you may be right. In states with exchanges there may be no legal alternatives offered at all, and in those states repeal may not do anything but remove the subsidies.

    This is going to be really bad and, as usual, really bad things only get fixed by piles of newly-printed money.

    Think Humpty.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  34. One idea for Obama to save his administration: hire Bill Clinton as Chief of Staff, and go golfing in Hawaii for a year.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  35. Rolling this thing back to the old system will get harder and harder as each day passes. The previous system had a mix of customers and a mix of coverages. This mix cannot be arbitrarily changed without harming the financial soundness of the overall insurance system. The old coverages have been declared insufficient, and the customers who have been cancelled have begun searching for new options. Even if the plans could be restored to their previously “inadequate” state, it is impossible to predict who will then decide to renew their old plan. Right now the only thing that is certain is that those who were actively dealing with an expensive medical condition and whose policies have been cancelled as of Jan. 1 will want to go back to their previous plan. If their healthy counterparts choose not to, then the insurance company will face bankruptcy.

    One can imagine Hte Won attempting to use an executive order to force everyone to renew their old policies, just to tide things over through the coming congressional elections. It will be amusing to see how Roberts rationalizes this as some form of tax.

    bobathome (a8089a)

  36. I think I read somewhere that insurance companies have to submit their policies/plans to individual state insurance commissions prior to offering them.

    — Yeah, they USED TO have to do that. Not anymore, unless the state commissions have been co-opted to be ACA compliance checkers.

    Icy (daf735)

  37. New York Times front page, second column from left, Tuesday, November 12, 2013:

    Insurers Seek Ways to Bypass Healthcare.gov

    They want to be able to enroll people without going through healthcare.gov. That is, they want to be able to calculate and include the subsidy.

    ehealthinsurance.com was already planning to link to healthcare.gov, but I think this involves bypassing everything.

    The Obama Administration doesn’t like that, arguing they want to protect the privacy of financial, tax and immigration data, and no such thing is now planned and some insurers are not holding out much hope. They are proposing to direct applications through the insurance companies, but they’d have to use healthcare.gov to get any subsidy approved. The insurance companies want to create another pathway to get that information.

    Another idea is allowing enrollment before the paperwork is completed. Or let consumers get their own estimates. But insurers are worried what will happen if people have to pay significantly more than they estimated, leading them maybe not to pay and insurers to have cash flow problems.

    Insurers do not want to extend the open enrollment period because that will only lead to healthy people waiting to sign up (as if they would sign up now anyway) and making it difficult to calculate where they should price 2015 policies.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  38. Comment by bobathome (a8089a) — 11/12/2013 @ 10:34 am
    Rolling this thing back to the old system will get harder and harder as each day passes.
    — And what “system” is that? State by state regulation?

    The previous system had a mix of customers and a mix of coverages. This mix cannot be arbitrarily changed without harming the financial soundness of the overall insurance system.
    — How would changing things back to the way they were be either ‘arbitrary’ or ‘harmful’?

    Even if the plans could be restored to their previously “inadequate” state, it is impossible to predict who will then decide to renew their old plan.
    — I predict that many if not most of those that liked their plan, and their doctor, and especially their premium will decide to renew.

    Right now the only thing that is certain is that those who were actively dealing with an expensive medical condition and whose policies have been cancelled as of Jan. 1 will want to go back to their previous plan. If their healthy counterparts choose not to, then the insurance company will face bankruptcy.
    — They “will face bankruptcy” because the healthy people that previously chose to have a policy (despite the lack of an individual mandate) will no longer choose to have a policy once the individual mandate disappears? Why would this be the case if these healthy individuals chose to have policies PRIOR to the individual mandate going into effect?

    One can imagine Hte Won attempting to use an executive order to force everyone to renew their old policies
    — Heh. That’s pretty funny!
    “If you like your plan, you MUST keep your plan.”

    Icy (daf735)

  39. Without lies, how would The Left communicate at all?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  40. December 15th is the cutoff date to enroll for healthcare plans. That’s little more than a month to complete the process. I don’t think it’s enough time for millions of applications to be processed.
    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:01 am

    — Yeah, that sucks for the thousands (millions?) of people that are facing a coverage gap. And IF Obama really cared, then he might do something about it. Well, he did; he pushed back the deadline for facing a ‘fine’ from the IRS for having that gap in coverage. He didn’t want it to seem like the government was ‘piling on’.

    As for the gap itself, well . . . nobody ever gets sick during wintertime, do they?

    Icy (daf735)

  41. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/12/2013 @ 9:19 am

    Racist, and Sexist!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  42. Do you expect the insurance companies to eat the cost? It’s a disaster.
    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 11/12/2013 @ 9:52 am

    YES! They were an integral part of bringing BarryCare to a vote in the House and Senate, along with Big Pharma (perhaps their friends there will help?).
    They need to eat their failure.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  43. askeptic,

    Unfortunately, it’s hard to guys to say things like that in today’s PC world but I think it’s true. Obama has a strange relationship with women. I’m not trained in psychiatry so I really don’t understand it, but to this layman it seems like a love-hate or maybe a dominant-submissive relationship.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  44. Open Interstate Commerce to Health-Care Insurance, and let it be regulated (after the fact) by the Federal Trade Commission. Let the consumer pick & choose what coverage he/she deems desirable/sufficient, and pay accordingly.
    Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we wouldn’t see a website titled AmazonCare.com up within 72-hrs.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  45. DRJ, the presence of “father figures” in the early life of Barry Obama Soetoro is most notable by their absence, or of being on the fringe, as he bounced from BHO Sr., to Soetoro, to Frank Marshall Davis, and no telling what influence his Maternal Grand-Father had (if any).
    The only constants seem to be a Mother who was in-and-out, and a Grand-Mother who probably spoiled him rotten.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  46. That’s what’s wrong with means testing.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  47. This is to be expected.

    People will say whatever is consistent with what they previously reported, and they will avoid confessing they are smokers.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  48. Everyone will have to submit to a Tox-Screen for banned/controlled substances – including trans-fats, and a propensity for ordering Big Gulps.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  49. I understand his fatherless past, askeptic. What I’m suggesting is we may be seeing how that past is impacting his Presidency. Does he acquiesce to women in leadership roles? Or is he better at manipulating them? I think both are possible but neither is good for governing.

    The sexist in me also wonders if women are not effective in the top positions because they tend to be more cooperative than confrontational.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  50. Whatever the cause, this Presidency will go down as an epic disaster that unfortunately, the Captain will survive the sinking.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  51. Icy #39: Your ability to predict is astonishing. It gives me a warm feeling that perhaps central planning will work after all. No need for markets or free enterprise. Just march everybody back in time, erase any hard feelings that may have been created when they were cancelled, whiteout the termination dates and everyone will discover that maybe they can keep their doctor after all. Assuming all the contractual obligations that existed last September can be recreated, that is. But what if your doctor has signed a new contract with a different clinic or healthcare firm. What if the hospital has made new arrangements? Is all this really reversible?

    In my view, a child just ran into the toy store, opened up thousands of containers that held 50 million marbles sorted by color and size, and dumped them on the floor. And the floor is slightly tilted to facilitate drainage which is accomplish with a connection to a storm water runoff pipe, which the child foolishly thought would be a good way to clean the marbles. It will not be easy to put all those marbles back in their containers even if you can still find them. And each jar has a customized lid, but the lids are not distinquishable from each other except by trying to put them on one container at a time. Just identifying the right lids will be a task. Entropy only works one way.

    bobathome (a8089a)

  52. I can hear the speech already….

    “Let me be clear. My vision for healthcare reform was that everyone in this great country would be covered by health insurance. We tried to accomplish this by mandating that everyone enter the market place and buying their own coverage. We’ve now learned that the free market is a dangerous thing to rely on. Millions of policies have been canceled and that’s unacceptable. These greedy corporations have decided not to cover just those people who we intended the reform for. So, what to do? We’re running up against a tight deadline. Soon, these millions of hard-working Americans will have no coverage at all. We’ll be worse off than before. That’s unacceptable. I call on Congress to act. I call on both parties to put aside their petty differences and reform the Affordable Care Act so that all Americans, no matter what age, gender, gay, straight, sick, or healthy will be covered by a NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLAN. We can no longer allow these Americans to be cast aside by corporate vultures. We can no longer allow them to fend for themselves. We must act. We must act now to cover all Americans. This will require some hard work. Everyone in this great nation will have to do their fair share to contribute to this. Those will much will have to help those with little. That will require a new budget, new tax reform. Everyone needs to do their part. I call on Congress to act. They must act now. Obamacare must provide healthcare to this entire nation. Free. Of. Charge. America must take care of Americans. Thank you.”

    Or something like that.

    SB (0340e6)

  53. Let me be clear, SB #53, that’s good stuff. Make no mistake about it, you’ve listened to many an Obama speech. The time to compliment you is now.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  54. All health-care providers will be Drafted into Military Service,
    hospitals and clinics will be Nationalized under the VA,
    and the National Health Service will be created thus.
    You will serve, and you will not object,
    because it is your duty to help your fellow Americans.

    Move along now, nothing here to see.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  55. @15 DRJ: Let’s not be sexist here. The men in the Obama administration are doing just as bad a job as the women, sometimes worse. Look at Eric “Operation Fast and Furious” Holder or John “lift sanctions on Iran” Kerry, for example.

    Joshua (9ede0e)

  56. 45.Open Interstate Commerce to Health-Care Insurance, and let it be regulated (after the fact) by the Federal Trade Commission. Let the consumer pick & choose what coverage he/she deems desirable/sufficient, and pay accordingly.
    Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we wouldn’t see a website titled AmazonCare.com up within 72-hrs.
    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/12/2013 @ 11:31 am

    — Not sure what ‘regulated after the fact’ means, but “let the consumer pick & choose” translates to ‘mandated a la carte plans'; and that might not be a workable business model for the insurance companies.

    Icy (23896c)

  57. Why not, they do it for the Federal Civil Service now.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  58. Federal Civil service members have at least one non-disabled, healthy adult under 65, probably younger.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  59. And, what I mean by “after the fact” is that if the insurance companies commit fraud, let them be prosecuted under Fair Trade Laws.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  60. SF, if you’re over 65, wouldn’t it be logical to assume that you’ve probably engaged in some coverage under Medicare; and that insurers do compete for that business by offering different plans and networks of providers.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  61. Previous article by Lori Gotleib (who lost her insurance)

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/03/marry-him/306651/

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  62. ala carte plans….

    I see no reason to deprive consumers of the ability to pick and choose.
    To do so is to imply that the average American is incapable of ordering their life, and that inference is – to me – unacceptable!
    We pick and choose 401k’s, we pick and choose homes, we pick and choose cars;
    Hell, we pick and choose politicians with probably less information than we would use for any of the other tasks and they can certainly injure us more.
    Why are we incapable of the same when it comes to Health-Care Insurance?

    My fore-fathers didn’t struggle for Freedom & Liberty so that the Federal Government could be my Nanny.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  63. I see no reason to deprive consumers of the ability to pick and choose.
    To do so is to imply that the average American is incapable of ordering their life, and that inference is – to me – unacceptable!

    To you, it’s unacceptable. To the proggs, it’s the base assumption from which all further hypotheses flow.

    PCachu (e072b7)

  64. Buncha Pyromaniacs up in this place.

    jakee308 (ca1d05)

  65. 61 Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/12/2013 @ 2:43 pm

    SF, if you’re over 65, wouldn’t it be logical to assume that you’ve probably engaged in some coverage under Medicare; and that insurers do compete for that business by offering different plans and networks of providers.

    I remember, from my father, hat there were about 10 different standard MediGap plans. tghe most comprehenmsive were H and J. My father had H (everything except prescription medicines)

    That was probably because he and my mother used to get medicines from Monifiore Hospital – when the hospital stopped giving it away or selling it cheap, whatever they did, they had to use EPIC I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (d7b491)

  66. Comment by PCachu (e072b7) — 11/12/2013 @ 3:05 pm

    Probably why Progs and myself don’t quite agree on most anything.
    And, since most of them can be classified as Proto-Fascists, dealing with them should fall under Rule-7.62!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  67. Comment by bobathome (a8089a) — 11/12/2013 @ 12:50 pm
    Your ability to predict is astonishing.
    — Feel free to answer the question: WHY would healthy people that were on insurance plans pre-Obamacare “choose not to” renew those plans, if given the opportunity?

    It gives me a warm feeling that perhaps central planning will work after all.
    — Yes, well, that’s usually the effect of calling for the permanent recension of three federal mandates (employer, individual and minimum coverage). Oh, wait . . .

    No need for markets or free enterprise. Just march everybody back in time, erase any hard feelings that may have been created when they were cancelled, whiteout the termination dates and everyone will discover that maybe they can keep their doctor after all.
    — The ONLY person here that is suggesting a possible mandated return to current policies . . . is you.

    Assuming all the contractual obligations that existed last September can be recreated, that is.
    — You seem to be assuming that “all” of those obligations ended when the plans changed. They didn’t.

    But what if your doctor has signed a new contract with a different clinic or healthcare firm. What if the hospital has made new arrangements? Is all this really reversible?
    — And the reason why a doctor would change those contracts with facilities and provider networks due to a change in the policies offered by insurers is WHAT?

    Icy (23896c)

  68. askeptic, I’m not opposed to the idea of a la carte plans; just suggesting that if it was cost effective, then insurance companies would be offering them already on a widespread basis.

    Icy (23896c)

  69. askeptic, I’m not opposed to the idea of a la carte plans; just suggesting that if it was cost effective, then insurance companies would be offering them already on a widespread basis.

    It is not cost effective, or legal, any more.

    JD (5c1832)

  70. Leaving the patient to bleed to death doesn’t sound prudent, but maybe that’s just me.

    Colonel Haiku (c27e3f)

  71. It would be very difficult to continue the old policies, I heard on the CBS Evening News, because it would require the co-operation of many state insurance commissioners.

    The Obama Administration is also considering the idea of giving people whose policies were discontinued more money, but they can’t figure out a way to do that legally.

    They could go to Congress, you know, but…that’s kind of unthinkable for Obama right now.

    Sammy Finkelman (d7b491)

  72. Comment by Icy (23896c) — 11/12/2013 @ 3:38 pm

    WHY would healthy people that were on insurance plans pre-Obamacare “choose not to” renew those plans, if given the opportunity?

    Because, now that people have been re-examing their options, some of them would find better, lower cost policies, maybe mre in the line of catastrophic insurance.

    Any rise in premiums would cause the most healthy people to drop their old policies.

    Some would find newly started up policies. These people would be disproportionately healthy, and not regularly seeing doctors.

    The people remaining in the older policies would tend to be sicker.

    Sammy Finkelman (d7b491)

  73. obamacare is for momos

    you don’t want to be a momo do you?

    no

    no you don’t next thing you know you’ll be one of those people who eat at Boston Market and have vienna sausages in the pantry

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  74. What is going to happen is that the Congress, in a moment of panic, is going to repeal the mandate and the “minimum standards” of the health insurance market. This will permit normal middle class citizens to purchase reasonable insurance policies, probably most of them catastrophic type. The poor and the uninsurable will be a player to be named later.

    MikeK (dc6ffe)

  75. Boston Market is overpriced, I can eat better from the Jewel frozen section. But there are always Vienna Beef franks in my refrigerator. It’s not a Chicago-style hot dog without a Vienna Beef frank in a Marry Ann bun.

    nk (dbc370)

  76. Icy 68: It may not have occurred to you, but for every patient who has lost a doctor, there is a doctor who has lost a patient. So when reviewing their appointments in January, 2014, these doctors will at the very least discover that they have many vacancies in their schdules. Most doctors are pretty well organized, and my expectation is that they would have foreseen this situation when the insurance company told them that they were cancelling coverage for their patients. Being well organized, they would begin searching for other situations where they would be able to see patients once again. I rather doubt that there are any doctors who haven’t been actively seeking alternatives; and the contracts they have been signing to participate in these opportunities may preclude returning to the way things were in September. Their schedules for January might already be full, but with a new set of patients, for example. Just speculating of course. Maybe ObamaCare is just a very bad dream. But more likely we are finding out what was in it, just as Pelosi predicted. But I’m not smiling in the manic fashion of the ex-speaker of the House.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  77. i like sliced vienna sausages with raw onion and mustard on a sammich but that works with liverwurst too

    but I’m kind of a momo

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  78. bobathome, hold onto your hat, because I’m about to make another prediction: Many, if not most, of the people receiving cancellation notices will be able to keep their doctors when they enroll in replacement plans.

    Icy (23896c)

  79. You really can’t repeal it without something to replace it, can you?

    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 11/12/2013 @ 8:03 am

    Have you heard of the free market?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  80. Have you heard of the free market?

    We haven’t have a free market in health care for 50 years. Starting with Medicare, the government distortions and control have been so large, and constantly growing, that every player has had to accommodate government demands directly or indirectly.

    Once upon a time, one bought insurance that protected against a catastrophe. For everything else you paid cash. We have gone to the point where cash is no good and “insurance” has been outlawed.

    A free market in health care would require a revolution.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  81. Yeah, fair comment, Kevin.

    So what do you think the answer is?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)


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