Patterico's Pontifications

10/31/2013

The Carnage In The Individual Market Is A Precursor To Employer Market

Filed under: General — JD @ 7:08 am

[guest post by JD]

And they know it.

That is why their newest attempts to spin the known effects of their regulations as just applying to a tiny fraction of the population, 5%, is not all doom and gloom. Besides, that is what the exchanges are for. And talking about losing your plan that you like is grossly misleading. Because they can buy new coverage on the exchanges, which covers things they don’t need, things they don’t want, at prices they can’t afford. Because they know better, and they are saving you from your own stupidity.

Now we find out that they KNOW, and have known, that this will have profound effects on the small business market, and the large business market. If you accept the admin’s own metrics, Avik’s rough estimate is that 93,000,000 could be effected in the first year.

They are effin’ liars. The real life disastrous consequences of this leftist utopian wet dream warrant a throw away line in a stump speech from them.

—-JD

30 Responses to “The Carnage In The Individual Market Is A Precursor To Employer Market”

  1. Ding

    JD (5c1832)

  2. I don’t get how Ron Johnson’s bill would help. You can pass another law requiring carriers to take a hit. Or are they repealing the stricter grandfather clause items?

    Patricia (be0117)

  3. at prices they can’t afford

    They talk only about the premium (and even that only after subsdidies that must, in theory, at leasst be paid back dome April 2015 – and when they sday “below X number of Dollars” they are including Medicaid and Medicaid might need to be paid back also)

    They talk only about the premium and ignore co-pays, co-insurance and deductible.

    An electricity supply company in New York that calls you up on the phone is more honest.

    http://consumer.westchestergov.com/important-information/find-lowest-gas-and-oil-prices/energy-service-company

    The pitch is always the same – they open up like this is something new, when it’s been around since 1999 or earlier – they say you will save 7% on your bill – Con Ed bill – they say the price is variable so they can’t tell the cost per kilowatt hour – some do tell you historical rates upon being questioned. When you get a price it’s limited for one month or two.

    They always promise you can quit, which is true.

    You never really can compare the charge by one ESCO against another. There’s no web site that lists historical rates so you make a guess, no consumer reporting.

    The cost per kilowatt hour for supply on the bills seem to vary – very slightly but they do vary – between one apartment and anotehr in the sdame building with meters read on the same days -so thewrefoore it is not really a cost per kilowatt hour.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  4. * only after subsidies that MAY, in theory, at least, be required to paid back come April 2015.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  5. It makes me feel all warm and tingly knowing that President Sham Wow lied to only 5% of us.

    Icy (34d424)

  6. The subsidies don’t need to be “paid back,” Sammy.

    Icy (34d424)

  7. 6. Comment by Icy (34d424) — 10/31/2013 @ 8:49 am

    The subsidies don’t need to be “paid back,” Sammy.

    I know. I corrected “must” to “may” in comment 4.

    You’re may not be familiar with all of the lies or booby traps of Obamacare.

    The subsidies are actually advance tax credits based on estimated 2014 income.

    Should somebody wind up with more income than initially calculated, they may have to pay back some or even all of it.

    For some people, particularly in their 60s, (Daleyrocks has checked this out) near the upper income limit for ettinga subsidy, this could amount to thousands of dollars.

    And, like someone I know, you or a family member might also be required to pay back Medicaid. You might be billed thousands of dollars (this time by a state) if you don’t disenroll yourself from Medicaid fast enough when you should. This could impact many college students. Or people who lost or quit their jobs and then find another one.

    Now whether all this kind of money can or will be collected is another story.

    And Congress may pass a law preventing people from losing their tax refunds.

    But as the law stands now, yes, some people may be required to pay back significant amounts of their subsidy come April 2015.

    President Obama of course is not telling anybody that. You have to know about the “fine print.”

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  8. Carnage in the employer market will be taking hold just about the time 2014 mid-term elections roll around, so Democrats have that going for them, which is nice.

    Look for a major demonization campaign against evil profit making corporations who provide most of the jobs in this country. Should be fun.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  9. The subsidies are actually advance tax credits based on estimated 2014 income.

    — This isn’t true either. “Tax credits” and “subsidies” are two separate elements. If your income significantly increases from your estimate you will need to return some of your tax credit to the IRS. Reason? Because the IRS sends this money directly to the insurance company every month to cover part of the premium.
    The subsidy lowers the deductible and the out-of-pocket maximum, which is set at the same level for everyone on the plan.

    Icy (34d424)

  10. I’ll make a little wager: Somehow the effects of the employer exchange won’t become public until the 5th of November 2014.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  11. Icy,

    You may be correct but absolutely everyone involved is conflating those terms wildly.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  12. 10. I’ll make a little wager: Somehow the effects of the employer exchange won’t become public until the 5th of November 2014.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 10/31/2013 @ 9:43 am

    You mean, about when the full force of the cuts to Medicare Advantage are felt by seniors when the Obama slush fund masking those effects runs out?

    I’d say that’s a safe bet.

    Steve57 (338553)

  13. Comment by Icy (34d424) — 10/31/2013 @ 9:43 am

    The subsidy lowers the deductible and the out-of-pocket maximum, which is set at the same level for everyone on the plan.

    That is not the kind of subsidy for which anyone would need to know your income.

    Here we have a “Subsidy calculator”

    http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  14. They may try that, but employers will be negotiating their plans with insurance companies long before 5th of November 2014.

    That’s way too many people to personally intimidate into not speaking up and not reporting. That kind of news gets out.

    Everyone who’s an employee of a company offering health insurance is going to be getting warnings from HR that their company is reworking their insurance and HR policies and company donation and person donation are all going to change.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  15. Despite all of his research, Sammy appears to be a “low information voter”?

    Colonel Haiku (cd8c27)

  16. “I’ll make a little wager: Somehow the effects of the employer exchange won’t become public until the 5th of November 2014.”

    Kevin M. – Employers not directing employees to an exchange will most likely begin notifying employees of changes to health insurance benefits for calendar year 2015 beginning October 1, 2014 at the latest. The Obama Administration knows this is a problem:

    “The Departments’ mid-range estimate is that 66 percent of small employer plans and 45 percent of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfather status by the end of 2013,” wrote the administration on page 34,552 of the Register. All in all, more than half of employer-sponsored plans will lose their “grandfather status” and get canceled. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 156 million Americans—more than half the population—was covered by employer-sponsored insurance in 2013.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/31/obama-officials-in-2010-93-million-americans-will-be-unable-to-keep-their-health-plans-under-obamacare/

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  17. If the ultimate aim is to get to single payer, as many believe, ObamaCare being a disaster is a feature, not a bug.
    It seems to me that a major issue is the timing and process of the collapse and whether it becomes the path to single payer out of public fear and panic, or enough people realize and resent being lied to and oppose further manipulation by the same people.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  18. or enough people realize and resent being lied to and oppose further manipulation by the same people.

    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 10/31/2013 @ 10:33 am

    Yoda using the Force to see future! Difficult to see the future it is! Always in motion the future is. Yoda sees trees and lamp posts sprouting human ornaments!

    Yoda (c1890a)

  19. That is not the kind of subsidy for which anyone would need to know your income.

    — No kidding. That’s what I said.

    Icy (34d424)

  20. If the full force of the changes to Medicare Advantage, and to the employer market, won’t appear until after the 11/4/14 election, there could be some very interesting demonstrations as the newly elected Congress is sworn in January of 2015.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  21. Icy,
    You may be correct but absolutely everyone involved is conflating those terms wildly.
    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 10/31/2013 @ 9:46 am

    — True. What healthcare.gov calls “Advance Premium Tax Credit” the Kaiser site Sammy linked (and healthcare.gov links to the same site) calls “tax credit subsidies”. This tax credit ‘subsidizes’ the premium ONLY, can be applied to any level of coverage (Bronze > Platinum) and is subject to being reduced (i.e. you’ll have to return some of it to the IRS) if you end up making more than your estimated income.

    The SUBSIDY, what healthcare.gov calls “cost-sharing reduction” (and which applies to the Silver Plan ONLY) reduces out-of-pocket costs like deductibles, coinsurance, and copayments . . . in other words, everything BUT the premium.

    There IS an income threshold to qualify for the subsidy; but, unlike the tax credit, you won’t get in trouble with the IRS unless you, A) grossly misstate your estimated income, and B) actually receive covered services that have been reduced by the subsidy. Your income can range up and down without triggering a problem unless you cross the maximum income threshold.

    [And that, folks, is how you do The Finkelman Rag]

    Icy (713e9d)

  22. This. A thousand times, this.

    Former Conservative (105295)

  23. Oh, by the way, it’s “affected”.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  24. 23- ?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  25. askeptic, JD used effected for affected in the OP.

    SPQR (768505)

  26. Mea culpa. Quelle horror

    JD (5c1832)

  27. SPQR #25 – it’s just JD’s little effectation …

    (innocent grin)

    Alastor (54b49a)

  28. Colour me surprised.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  29. Mea culpa. Quelle horror

    By the way it’s, “Quelle horreur!” 😉

    Just kidding. Don’t sweat it. Great post. I’ve been making this point too: what’s happening with the individual plans may be nothing compared to when the employer plans start kicking out.

    Related: I’m still surprised launch day reached six enrolments.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  30. daleyrocks – you honor me !

    Alastor (54b49a)


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