Patterico's Pontifications

10/23/2013

Claim: Obama Didn’t Know ObamaCare Web Site Sucked

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:54 am



Reassuring stuff (?) from Kathleen Sebelius.

President Barack Obama didn’t know of problems with the Affordable Care Act’s website — despite insurance companies’ complaints and the site’s crashing during a test run — until after its now well-documented abysmal launch, the nation’s health chief told CNN on Tuesday.

In an exclusive interview with Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta asked when the President first learned about the considerable issues with the Obamacare website. Sebelius responded that it was in “the first couple of days” after the site went live October 1.

“But not before that?” Gupta followed up.

To which Sebelius replied, “No, sir.”

This is supposed to give us confidence, I guess?

(I love way they all say you can just call — when reports are that the people you call will tell you to go online.)

If his golf course was not being properly maintained, Obama would know that.

But a Web site to be used by millions of Americans who are required by law to buy what the Web site is offering? Don’t bother me with the details.

339 Responses to “Claim: Obama Didn’t Know ObamaCare Web Site Sucked”

  1. Its clowns all the way down.

    SPQR (768505)

  2. Obama first knew when he read about it in the paper.

    Heh.

    Well played Kathleen.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  3. The insulation is so comforting.

    Anyways, it’s his signature legislation and he pays no attention to it. So he forced a government shutdown over an issue that he wasn’t paying attention to and doesn’t seem to know much about.

    Does this President know about anything before the general public learns of it?

    So he’ll tax you without batting an eyelash and force you to use a product that he is completely unaware of. There’s no way they can spin this to be favorable of the President. I’d expect blaming to divert attention of all the progressive loons out there.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  4. “choke me in the shallow water before I get too deep” – Eddie Brickell

    felipe (70ff7e)

  5. Obama first knew when he read about it in the paper.

    Good thing he stopped by a newsstand, too. The sequester had forced the White House to cancel delivery.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. “But not before that?” Gupta followed up.

    That’s not a follow-up. That’s just asking the inept hooch to reiterate what she said.

    A follow-up would be, “What kind of inept hooch keeps her boss in the dark about a fiasco of this magnitude?”

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  7. When is Teh One going to answer questions himself?

    Like, what about “If you like your plan you can keep it” and “If you like your doctor you can keep him”?

    When?

    Patricia (be0117)

  8. I like Kathleen Sebelius. She’s ten times the man* Obama is. Why did she join this worthless SCOAMF?

    *No, Mark. I think even you would approve of her personal life.

    nk (dbc370)

  9. But remember these twits were convinced that George W. was stupid….

    SPQR (768505)

  10. The NYT thinks Sebelius is stealthily tossing WH under the bus.

    The same tech genii that got Boo Boo re-elected evidently wanted total control over the project and arrogantly expected to re-invent the wheel.

    Another Darwin incident, with collateral damage.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  11. When will Teh One take responsibility?

    JD (9db9eb)

  12. What I think is probably the truth is that Obama did know of problems with the website, but figured there was no point in announcing problems in advance, because maybe it would all go away.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  13. Yes, Sammy. That is completely logical.

    JD (9db9eb)

  14. So…Kathleen or Obama is a liar? Both? (Don’t think Obama is going to correct her narrative)

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  15. She lied by omission or got fooled by the website insurance policy documents into not realizing her new policy also had no out-of-network coverage.

    I’m inclined to think she lied by omission, but since it wasn’t her lie, she did the minimum lie.

    She mentioned that no out-of-network coverage was a big factor in her disliking her current insurance.

    I think, as a result, she could mislead people into thinking the new insrance does cover it.
    But she realizes herself that it doesn’t.

    Since neither her old not her new plan covers it, and her old-old plan didn’t seem to either, it’s a wash for her.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  16. “What I think is probably the truth is that Obama did know of problems with the website, but figured there was no point in announcing problems in advance, because maybe it would all go away.”

    Comment by JD (9db9eb) — 10/23/2013 @ 8:54 am

    Yes, Sammy. That is completely logical.

    Why admit to something that might not happen? He was being told they were fixing it. If he had really known for sure what would happen, that the web site wouldn’t be functional, he’d have gotten ahead of the story.

    He’d maybe have even let the Republicans gain a minor victory, and postpone thing everything a month or two.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  17. 14 and 15 belong on the Anyone Try to Create an Account at HealthCare.Gov? thread.

    http://patterico.com/2013/10/22/anyone-try-to-create-an-account-at-healthcare-gov

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  18. Well 14 was my post and I was talking about the lying of saying Obama didn’t know about the website not functioning.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  19. Sammy,

    Do you ever notice the amount of effort you have to put out to make excuses for this administration?

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  20. 17. Know what SmegmaBreath Sam? STFU and GTFO.

    Until you exercise some responsibility, until the progs Mascot does, FOAD.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  21. 16. …Why admit to something that might not happen? He was being told they were fixing it. If he had really known for sure what would happen, that the web site wouldn’t be functional, he’d have gotten ahead of the story.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a) — 10/23/2013 @ 9:27 am

    It may have escaped your eagle-like gaze, Sammy, but what just happened is that Obama refused to admit to what was already happening.

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/national-world/obama-health-care-as-easy-as-online-shopping/article_874eeb24-b648-5fef-b327-901822adc95d.html

    Obama: Health care as easy as online shopping

    Posted: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:00 am

    LARGO, Md. President Barack Obama says his Affordable Care Act is about to make health insurance cheaper than the average cellphone bill and as easy to get as “a plane ticket on Kayak.”

    That’s what he said four days before this abortion went public. The problems were already known. There was no “might not happen” about it.

    So, what are we to think. Here’s what we’re supposed to think. That Obama was so disinterested in the user interface to his signature legislation that he didn’t think to ask his HHS secretary and cabinet member about its status before bragging about it?

    And that we’re supposed to believe that no one at HHS, or on the WH staff, thought to stop the man who is theoretically the boss from going at and making a fool of himself. Or to correct him once he did. “Sir, it won’t be that easy.”

    They already knew that.

    Do you not notice the bait and switch, Sammy. Sebelius was telling everyone right up to the moment of launch that they system would be ready to go on October 1. Now she’s changing her story to one where she really needed five years of development and a year of testing.

    Well, which is it?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  22. Hmmm. Even the lame stream media in July was reporting concerns that the Healthcare.404 site security was riddled with holes and had not been heavily tested yet. I’m sure that never reached the ears of Dear Leader either.

    in_awe (7c859a)

  23. If Sebelius really needed five years of development and a year of testing then why didn’t she mention it earlier?

    16. …He’d maybe have even let the Republicans gain a minor victory, and postpone thing everything a month or two.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a) — 10/23/2013 @ 9:27 am

    So Sebelius, or at the very least her subordinates, lied under oath and lied to the American people in order to avoid giving the GOP a minor win.

    Who are the extremists?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  24. 22. Hmmm. Even the lame stream media in July was reporting concerns that the Healthcare.404 site security was riddled with holes and had not been heavily tested yet. I’m sure that never reached the ears of Dear Leader either.

    Comment by in_awe (7c859a) — 10/23/2013 @ 9:59 am

    Whaaaa? Obama usually learns about what’s going on in his administration from media reports.

    How did he not know about this?

    I know! Because of the government shutdown. Because the eeeevil Republicans shut down the gub’mint October first he couldn’t learn what the media was reporting until the gub’mint reopened.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  25. He couldn’t learn what the media was reporting back in July until the gub’mint reopened.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  26. Admittedly off-topic but this is astounding: Saudis sever diplomatic ties with the U.S..

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  27. 14. 15. 17. 18.

    Comment by DejectedHead (a094a6) — 10/23/2013 @ 9:40 am

    Well 14 was my post and I was talking about the lying of saying Obama didn’t know about the website not functioning

    Sorry for my mistake.

    The comment from Dejected Head was about Kathleen Sebelius, not Fox News contributor Sally Kohn, and I responded to it like it was in response to what I had written in the other thread.

    Obama probably really did expect the website to (mostly) work on October 1 or would work very soon afterwards. I don’t think he stood there like a deer in the headlights.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  28. The Daily Mail headline from my last link may be overstated.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  29. What did Valerie Jarrett know, and when did she know it?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  30. 26- That is one major effing disaster.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  31. Unless you think he kept the budget fight going in an attempt to dovert attention from the broken website.

    But he could just have ignored the website, or announced it was not ready to use. It would have bene less embarassing.

    True, though too much of the economics of Obamacare depends on people signing up soon, and they were/are very well aware of that.

    a beta version.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  32. Too good to be true, DRJ. I’m sure the Saudis are playing us against Al Qaeda, though, while using Al Qaeda against us. It’s how those apes roll.

    nk (dbc370)

  33. 28- It has been well known in diplomatic/security circles that the House of Saud has not been happy with the direction that U.S. Foreign Policy has taken vis-a-vis Iran and AQ/MB.
    Now, with our imports of OPEC (read: Saudi) oil at levels not seen since the 80’s, and the explosion of production in North America because of advancements in drilling techniques and fracking, they see that future sales to the U.S. will most likely continue to decline, reducing their influence in the corridors of power in DC.

    Perhaps the Daily Mail overstated the case, but it is a case that is being made in the “tents” in Riyadh.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  34. I get why the Left is always protecting the WH Lawn Jockey.

    Must the empty chair take responsibility, can you blame a cardboard replica, does anyone expect the ShamWow guy to stand behind the product?

    Of course not, he just reads the cue cards, he’s loud and visually arresting, a spokesmodel.

    He catches SportsCenter every day and can’t name a White Sox player, can’t pick a NCAA final four contestant. He can’t make a jump shot, get a pitch to home plate or pick up a spare.

    And those are all easy tasks. You think he asked Tiger for pointers on his short game around the green. Get out!

    He’s a pretender, a con artiste, a post turtle.

    Of course he’s not responsible.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  35. President Chance!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  36. President Valerie knew. That’s what matters.

    elissa (f45420)

  37. Does anyone really believe HHS Secretary Sebelius blindsided the White House about the website failures? What is obvious is the WH is now making her the fall guy (gal?) in this whole charade, and that includes falling on here sword to protect POTUS.

    She is now going to testify, which she studiously avoided for 3 weeks. It is doubtful her decision was voluntary.

    Corky Boyd (f21d60)

  38. Sequestration ! Or something.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  39. What I heard this morning on NPR was that Saudi Arabia had done three things recently. Two I heard before, and mentioned here, and the third was new.

    1) Saudi Arabia had cancelled a major United Nations speech (Sept 30)

    2) Saudi Arabia had turned down a seat in the United Nations Security Council, after having just been elected to it. (October 18)

    [My comment was that ths had to reflect an unsettled power struggle within Saudi Arabia as to the direction of its foreign policy – Saudi Arabia could very easily have turned down the seat in advance if it wanted to]

    3) This is today (Oct 23) – Saudi’s Arabia chief of intelligence [whom NPR did not name, but that’s Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the probable murderer of Vincent Foster and probable conspirator in the murder of U.S. Ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens a year ago] had called in European diplomats and notified them that Saudi Arabia was ceasing [intelligence?] co-operation with the United States.

    Why would he tell them? Because I guess he doesn’t want these European nations to share information with the United States!! And just when the U.S. was about to apologize for spying on allies like France. Can’t do that now.

    NPR also reported – this is all being attributed to differences over Syria – that Saudi Arabia was probably behind the new armed group the “Syrian Islamic Army” whie the United States was behind, or maybe not behind, the “Free Syrian Army.”

    I think maybe it’s just that the United States is getting wise to Prince Bandar. Somebody is on his trail. they’ll tie the murder of J. Christopher Stevens to him – and maybe even Vincent Foster.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  40. This is the smartest White House in history.
    They don’t know anything about the IRS, or Solyndra, or Benghazi, or the ObamaCare website, but they know everything about everything else.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  41. If you want to read something that won’t surprise you go read the execrable Joan Walsh’s stfu admonishments to liberal bloggers. She’s advocating lyin’ and coverin’ up what smells in the Obamacare`cat box because it will help dear leader and the prog agenda. sick.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/10/21/liberal_pundit_fail_rush_to_attack_obamacare_site_only_aids_unhinged_right/

    elissa (f45420)

  42. the probable murderer of Vincent Foster and probable conspirator in the murder of U.S. Ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens a year ago

    In the immortal words of JD:

    Good Allah, Sammy!
    You need to take that tin-foil cap in for a tune-up.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  43. 26. Admittedly off-topic but this is astounding: Saudis sever diplomatic ties with the U.S..

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 10/23/2013 @ 10:05 am

    DRJ, the fact is that ME observers have been predicting the Saudis would take some sort of action against the US. The odds have been increasing by the day. And it’s not so much about Syria as Iran.

    http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/10/20/wanted-patron-for-hire/#more-32562

    All the signs point to this being decided at the very top of the Saudi government pyramid … it would be a mistake to not see in this a growing Saudi rage mixed with horror at the Obama administration. … there is at least the possibility that the White House hasn’t really thought through just what the Saudis could do that would make us unhappy. That would be a mistake. The Saudis have a lot of weight in Pakistan and could make things easier or harder for us there.

    …Not far below the surface there is also a sense of Saudi vulnerability. The Kingdom is, after all, an ally of the West, especially when it comes to anything connected with Iran…. From a Saudi perspective, the message the West and above all the Americans have sent through their handling of the chemical weapons crisis is that it is has lost the will to get tough (a message which they think will not have been lost on the Iranians); that it lacks consistency (not all that long ago Western spokesmen would say that Assad was toast, and now even Kerry is praising his government for its cooperation with the OPCW inspectors); that it is not concerned about the strategic consequences of the conflict and the risk of refugee flows and other pressures destabilizing Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq; and that it lacks morality.

    You simply can not undercut your allies and embolden your enemies like this man has done without consequences.

    I’ve commented before that Japan is openly questioning the value of a mutual defense pact with the US since it can’t be relied upon.

    I was speaking originally in terms of blowback in theater, but now I’m speaking globally and somewhat metaphorically, but there always were going to be consequences to letting the NORKs get away with sinking the Cheonan. The Obama administration was sees everything through the prism of domestic “optics” and Chicago style politics.

    The pattern we’ve seen with Assad was presaged by the pattern we saw with the Cheonan. Hillary! speaking for Obama promised a strong response from the “global community,” went to the UN security council for a resolution condemning the NORKs, got humiliated and over-ruled by China, meekly accepted their spanking, and tried to spin it as a great victory to the LIVs.

    Our allies in the region watched with horror and disgust. The ROKs were livid.

    This administration is incapable of thinking strategically, unless its strategic goal is to destroy US credibility abroad along with our alliances.

    The incredible, sickening thing is that if you ask Obama supporters, they’ll still tell you that Obama has restored the US to a position of respect abroad after all of the damage Bush did.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  44. How many scandals are we up to now? 4 years in and we have:

    Fast & Furious
    Benghazi and the blaming of a web video.
    IRS political targetting.
    The Bailouts.
    Obamacare
    NSA spying on Americans.
    Skyrocketing National Debt.
    Drone strikes on Americans.
    The Libya kinetic military action…aka War.
    The Redirecting of the Missle Shield to appease Russia and stab Eastern Europe in the back.
    Fumbling all over the Egyptian situation.

    And the Administration has accepted responsibility for NONE of it.

    I know I’m missing some too.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  45. Robert Stacey Stacy McCain has the documentation that it was a lie.

    Now, unless President Obama is planning to suspend the 22nd Amendment and take a third term in office, he’s done on January 20, 2017; he can’t run for office again, so why have a subordinate tell a deliberate lie to try to shirk the responsibility? Heck, he could have said, “Yeah, I knew about it, but I didn’t want to give those scumbag Republicans any extra ammunition, and we kicked their sorry butts, didn’t we,” and half of the country — the dumber half, but that’s the Democrats’ base — would have cheered.

    The mark of a liar is when he tells a lie — or, in this case, has a lie told for him — when the truth would have served him just as well. And there is no advantage for the President to gain by having this lie told, even if it is believed, because he can’t run for the office again.

    The (usually) truthful Dana (3e4784)

  46. Not like Obama shoulders all the blame.

    Thanks, Obama voters!

    It’s analogous to Israel learning from Egypt that it can’t trade land for peace. Because as Israel has learned that no matter what deal they make they’re only one election cycle away from the Egyptians reneging on the deal.

    In a way, the Isrealis are better off than our allies, who now know they’re only one election cycle away from being thrown under the bus. At least the Egyptian military will oust the elected leadership and restore order.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  47. 42. On that note, I have this undeveloped theory which if I were to devote the next decade to I might have squat to put behind it:

    The cyclic perturbration of the Solar Dynamo is of gravitational origin by means of the Lorentz force.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force

    Every 200 years the Sun quiets down and the cyclic behavior is due to the orbits of the Jovian planets.

    This idea mimics work already done on larger scale phenomena, Seyfert galaxies.

    A primary investigator is Tsagas:

    http://prlo.aps.org/story/v7/st27

    Ah, but that would be inappropriate, wouldn’t it. No one is actually interested in the subject and frankly my work is so cursory it isn’t worth your time to consider my daydreams.

    What part of this example do you not understand SF?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  48. Now, unless President Obama is planning to suspend the 22nd Amendment and take a third term in office, he’s done on January 20, 2017; he can’t run for office again, so why have a subordinate tell a deliberate lie to try to shirk the responsibility?

    See Obama’s actions against Honduras when the entire Honduran government rose up against Zelaya’s unconstitutional attempt to remain in office past his term for your answer.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  49. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    Obama probably really did expect the website to (mostly) work on October 1 or would work very soon afterwards. I don’t think he stood there like a deer in the headlights.

    You know, not every problem does or should reach the President’s desk, and not every decision is or should be a Presidential decision. But the notion that the President was not informed of potential major foul-ups concerning the Obaminablecare roll-out when he was in the middle of a battle with the Republicans over defunding the whole thing in the first place is just not believable. If the lovely Mrs Sebelius didn’t tell him that there were potential problems, he should have asked if everything was going to work out OK. That means that either the President is an idiot or he was told deliberate lies. (Both could be true!)

    The highly amused Dana (3e4784)

  50. Mr 57, if President Obama did issue an executive order suspending the 22nd Amendment so that he could run for a third term, half of the country would cheer and support him.

    The dead serious Dana (3e4784)

  51. Oh, just to pile on to Dana’s excellent post, the NYT reported this morning that essentially Sebelius isn’t responsible for the exchanges because the White House micromanaged the roll out:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/us/politics/sebelius-thrust-into-firestorm-on-exchanges.html?_r=1&

    “Kathleen has the title, but she doesn’t have the responsibility or in many respects the kind of wide authority and access to the president that she really needs to make a difference,” said one person close to Ms. Sebelius and the White House, who asked to remain anonymous to discuss internal decision-making. “Everybody thinks that she’s the driving force, but unfortunately she’s not.”

    The White House kept close tabs on the creation of the online exchange, with particular attention to the Web site’s design, but managing the details of the software development was left to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which Ms. Sebelius oversees.

    If you read with a discerning eye, Sebelius was cut out of the loop when it came to actual development of the site.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  52. …the other half would arm.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  53. The same 50% who think we’re more respected abroad now that Bush is gone, Dana.

    On top of that, the Democrats in the Senate still wouldn’t impeach him. They’d be applauding too, since they’ve always hated the Constitution.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  54. Do these people really think doyougotinsurance.com and F**KYO for a phone number is appropriate a serious health program?

    But, then this is the Beyoncé/JayZ administration.

    Sibyl (148f61)

  55. I think Democrats support Obama because their core value is compassion.

    They want to show Obama compassion because he’s incredibly bad at his job.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  56. … F**KYO for a phone number is appropriate a serious health program?

    This is the same administration that stabbed Poland in the back and announced it was bowing to Russian pressure to abandon the missile defense shield on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland, Sibyl.

    These are not accidents, any more than when Obama pretends he’s just absentmindedly scratching his head when he displays his middle finger to his political opponents.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  57. Sammy, you always give the benefit of the doubt to Obama, or even Hillary, with Benghazi. You’ve always got some kind of painfully nuanced explanation for why Obama once again passed the buck.
    …and when it comes to Vince Foster or the JFK assassination, you are first in line to jump up and attempt to give credibility to the unlikeliest of explanations.

    You should study up on Obama. There’s a laundry list of his old acquaintances and former allies from back in the old Chicago days who say he is a liar and a back-stabber, and that he uses people for an objective and then discards them.
    Even those Democrat Hall-of-Famers the Kennedys (Caroline, Robert Jr, Ethel, et al, all say that he and Michelle have treated them like absolute sh*t.)

    This Obama person is a man who threw his own grandmother under the bus, after she paid for his expensive prep school and Occidental College education.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  58. DRJ – President Obama has his best, his top people working on that situation over there in the Middle East. The problems cannot be solved overnight, which was proved by the inability of The Best Secretary of State Evah to bring peace to the region.

    My understanding is that Obama is preparing some speeches to berate Israel again, which is always a popular move over there, release a few videos, cave in to some more Russian and Syrian demands while declaring victory staring with a steely-eyed glare at the camera, and declare Republicans responsible for deteriorating relations with Saudi Arabia.

    Problem solved.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  59. #57

    But…but..videos cause riots over there.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  60. DRJ – Plan B is for Obama to send more gay government employees to the Middle East for slaughter. That’s a big crowd pleaser.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. I don’t think

    Sam the Sham’s only accurate statement this AM…
    @#27, but i had to edit it to make it happen.

    because i’m a giver… 😎

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  62. On the other hand, that NASA Muslim outreach program might have fallen just a touch short of the results they were looking for, sort of like Headstart.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. The lack of substance that we can see so clearly in the ObamaCare roll out is this administration’s singular defining characteristic. We have supposedly “respected” academics like Alan Blinder drooling all over WSJ op-eds complaining that TARP and QE were simply not large enough, and that continuing the policy of devaluing the savings of our middle class is essential to the recovery. And yet our ecomony is still collapsing when it used to grow without the need of infusions of magical Ferderal Reserve dollars: for example, the $3.7T in increased “welfare” spending over the past five years. Employment stats are clear when viewed in total, including the enormous decline in the potential labor force, but the MFM keeps focused on the minutia: the increase in the quotient generated by small numerator divided by an ever-declining denominator. Foreign policy is a shambles where only our enemies receive polite attention. Those who have been our allies over the past century are disparaged.

    It is actually quite understandable when one considers the preparation of the current administration. They are like Hollywood set designers who have been tasked with the construction of the Hoover Dam. All they know is how to make it look plausible. And they are convinced that is all they they really need to know. It’s a bit like Mao’s Great Leap Forward which left China devasted and starving.

    I was interested to see this morning that Portland Or. is about to lose 80% of it’s container shipping in January. And Seattle is trying to rearrange its port contracts to accomodate a 50% reduction in container shipping. Perhaps the Portland cargo will end up n Seattle, but my guess is not. Right now the containers we send back to China are either empty or filled with logs and alfalfa. This is the sort of high tech future Hte One has in mind for Amerika.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  64. Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 10/23/2013 @ 10:42 am

    So, are you predicting another Mini-Ice Age, or not; or was all that just gibberish to wash over SF?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  65. hey daleyrocks:
    do you think Barry’s jihad against gays is based on self-loathing or just the traditional antipathy of the AA community for homosexuality?

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  66. NASA muslim outreach program could be a big success. When they see all the explosives on the NASA rockets, they’re downright excited to strap themselves to that rocket.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  67. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/23/2013 @ 11:08 am

    Hell, he could send all of Foggy Bottom, and half of Langley for all I care – could be a positive development in getting the attention of the Apparat.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  68. redc1c4 – I think Barky want the bath houses less crowded for selfish reasons.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  69. 62- Both SeaTac, and Portland, and probably SanFran/Oakland too, will lose container traffic to the newly expanded (undergoing) facilities at Prince Rupert, BC, Canada, that are hundreds of sea-miles closer to the Far-East, and don’t have the ILWU to deal with.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  70. Don’t forget daley, he is fully prepared to bow down to the Saudi king and do “whatever” it takes (you know, for the nation).

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  71. If he had practiced that bow more, and better, this might not have happened.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  72. PA – He will bow before any man. Truly a team player.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  73. 63 and 47: Remarkably, the sun has been experiencing an unexpected decline in activity in the latest eruption phase. And this will affect weather here on Earth, Al Gore not withstanding.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  74. traffic into LB/SP here in LA is down too, and, iirc, there’s a new port in Mexico that’s supposed to open soon, which will give them another non-ILWU port to use.

    as a side bar to this, i recall hearing somewhere that it is cheaper to build a new container in Asia, fill it with goods and ship it here and then repeat the cycle, than it is to send it back over to be refilled.

    this would explain the huge stacks of containers all over the ports and elsewhere…

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  75. The Republicans are blocking the sun. Or whatever.
    It is because they hate dark-skinned people so much, that they don’t want caucasians to get a sun tan.
    Or something.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  76. in some up-beat news for Ear Leader, he has the full fledged support of Margie Phelps. O:)

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/10/westboro-cult-leader-praises-obama-bashes-tea-party/

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  77. #74
    So THAT’s WHY they’re called thee Illuminati

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  78. 63. I don’t expect a mini Ice Age. The last Solar Minimum, the Dalton, was accompanied by an high arctic IE6 volcanic eruption(more effective than equatorial) at the outset with Laki in Iceland, and others in Mayon and the Caribbean before an IE8 in Tambora.

    So far we’ve only had an IE6 at Chaiten. Perhaps Solar minima and increase volcanism are linked, but if we don’t get both low energy Solar input and volcanic H2SO4 aloft then not likely.

    OTOH, crop yields will certainly suffer with 10% loss of degree days.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  79. H2SO2, Doh.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  80. Comment by The (usually) truthful Dana (3e4784) — 10/23/2013 @ 10:38 am

    The mark of a liar is that he lies even when the truth would serve him just as well. And there is no advantage for the President to gain by having this lie told, even if it is believed, because he can’t run for the office again.

    The same argument was made about Bill Clinton – that there wasn’t any advantage (electorally at least) to Bill Clinton to lying about Monica Lewinsky, because he could never run for public office again and yet he went too a lot of trouble to lie. (of course Hillary could run for office)

    I think there tend to be motives. It’s not for nothing.

    A person is concerned about his reputation, even apart from getting votes in the next election. It impacts the ability to get things done, or do other things later, and in some cases, confession may reveal other, more important lies.

    Another comment (by LN_Smithee) at TheOtherMcCain website at
    http://theothermccain.com/2013/10/23/obama-claims-ignorance-of-failure-despite-igs-clear-warnings-in-august/ indeed gives a possible motive: his legacy or reputation.

    Every public statement, every talking point, every leak appears to have the purpose of either being a building block to a monument to himself, or a counterpoint to any criticism of his actions.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  81. Joe Pitts, Congressman from PA, said last night on Hewitt that he would have the transcripts of previous testimony with him at the next round of hearings…
    Previously you said “X”, were you wrong or lying?

    A collection of various quotes of Sibelius and all over time should be a real trip.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  82. Briefly returning to the general topic of the disaster of Obamacare, here’s when I knew the GOP was going to be the party of let’s-mend-not-end-Obamacare. Back last April.

    http://www.humanevents.com/2013/04/17/if-rubios-amnesty-is-so-great-why-is-he-lying/

    But, incomprehensibly, Rubio swore up and down that the newly legalized illegal immigrants won’t get government benefits: “And then they don’t qualify for any federal benefits. This is an important point. No federal benefits, no food stamps, no welfare, no Obamacare.

    When Marco Rubio went around talking about Obamacare as a federal benefit for which newly legalized aliens couldn’t get for 10 years.

    Now Rubio wants to toss Obamacare a lifeline. I was all for delaying the mandate for a year as a fallback position in the budget negotiations but as far as I’m concerned it’s off the table now.

    Of course, Obama will probably do it unilaterally anyway. But as far as I’m concerned the battle has shifted to fighting the budget-busting demands from Obama and the Democrats for another trillion dollars to “fix” all the “glitches.” Not just the computer “glitches,” but also all the budget “glitches” the Dems deliberately planted to support the lie that Obamacare would save money. Until they got it, then they intended to go back and get the rest.

    If I were in the GOP leadership I’d be out in front of this story, telling Obama that we’re not going to waste more money on this turd. You can’t polish a turd, you can’t fix the unfixable.

    The only decent and humane thing now is to stop the damage as soon as possible.

    The fact the GOP isn’t out in front of this story tells me about the same thing Rubio was telling me earlier this year.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  83. 68: OMG askeptic! What will we do with all the logs and alfafa? The apple trees have been cut and it will take years to replace them. And surely the ILWU has some friends in high place in Peking? Isn’t labor a basic constituency in the class warfare view of governance? And Oakland too? OMG! And Prince Rupert is so far north that it will be downright unpleasant to picket the freight trains carrying the goods. Looks to me like Canada will be the next target of Hte One’s foreign policy. Do they still have an Army, or are the Mounties enough to protect them?

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  84. Also, apparently even if the site was working, it is a security nightmare, ripe for huge ID theft.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  85. 73: Used containers are increasingly being used as building blocks for structures. It’s a bit like building a lego house. You’ve got to put a foundation down, but then you can put a decent span between the outer walls which are built one- or two containers high (and I’ve seen one that is five high) and then roof it over. I think there are even “nice” cabins built this way in addition to garages and barns.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  86. Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 10/23/2013 @ 11:28 am

    The Mexicans have been talking about building a container facility in either Ensenada, or further south at Punta Colonet (just north of San Quentin) for years now.
    Several big problems:
    1) the land is locked up in ejidos;
    2) no rail service – they would have to, at a minimum, run a double track to Mexicali where it could connect with a branch line of the old SP (now UP) that connects with the southern transcontinental line (Sunset Route) in the Imperial Valley;
    3) Hutchison Whampoa (Hong Kong based), which already has operational control of 4 major ports in Mexico is the lead advocate/investor, and is getting a lot of push-back because of their perceived monopoly position;
    4) It’s Mexico.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  87. Well, the queen knows that at this point it’s almost a religious belief by Dems that O-care is a good thing. By the time they wake up, it will be embedded into our country, and halfway to destroying us.

    Patricia (be0117)

  88. Comment by The highly amused Dana (3e4784) — 10/23/2013 @ 10:44 am

    If the lovely Mrs Sebelius didn’t tell him that there were potential problems, he should have asked if everything was going to work out OK. That means that either the President is an idiot or he was told deliberate lies. (Both could be true!)

    An idiot for believing the lies?

    Tht doesn’t make him into an idiot. This kind of thing is actually a pretty common thing.

    How many times have corporate executives forged ahead with mistakes until the mistake actually happens and can’t be denied any more? (and not just people who could lose their jobs if things go wrong.)

    This only means that:

    1) President Obama is not technologically sophisticated enough to understand what the problems were, and to evaluate the probability of them being fixed relatively easily with a little bit of overtime (by the people currently in charge)

    and

    2) He is below the 75th percentile in executive ability.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  89. Prince Rupert BC will also be the terminus of any Canadian pipeline to take Alberta tar-sands oil to China absent the Keystone XL pipeline – the Enviros can picket the trains taking containers East, and the pipeline pushing oil West.
    I just hope they remember to lie down under the pipeline, and not the trains.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  90. Returning to the O/T discussion of Obama losing the ME, the Iranians through one of their state-run news agencies are now openly calling for the destruction of the Saudis.

    http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=474201

    Time to break the last idol threatening the house of Allah

    I have no love for the Saudis. But I can see things from their perspective. If I were in their shoes and had to choose between President Prom Queen or Vlad as an ally, I know which one I’d choose.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  91. No SF, what it means is that Barry doesn’t have the smarts to run a lemonade stand.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  92. 1914 was an Interesting year….
    2014 could be a Very Interesting one.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  93. Sammy, just stop. Your spin is even more ridiculous than the White House spin.

    You never see this in the corporate world. Never. New Coke and the Edsel are relatively speaking success stories.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  94. Does anyone have a list of all the things Obama has pronounced “unacceptable” and pretended to be angry about, before obviously accepting them and then only demonstrating he’s angry at anyone who criticizes him?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  95. The WH spin isn’t even working with ex-WH spinmeisters.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UvDDzCuzdY

    Sammy’s spin is even worse.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  96. Boehner has said that it looks like more people will be dumped by their insurance carrier because of ObamaCare than will be able to get insurance because of ObamaCare.

    Of course, then the argument will be that the number of uninsured is increasing and we need to go to national health care.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  97. In a rational world, the Federal Government (Congress) would repeal all laws that interfere in the Doctor/Patient relationship, and authorize the sale of health-care insurance in Interstate Commerce.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  98. 89. Who are these people?

    They are based in Qom. There is nothing about anything bad Iran or Syria is doing. The only accusations against Israel are that Israel is the reason the United States is hostile to Iran.

    In not so many words, they’re basically accusing Saudi Arabia of being behind al Qaeda, although al Qaeda is never mentioned, but just “Salafists” and “Takfiris”.

    I guess Iran has some association with some al Qaeda groups.

    No names of any individuals or groups are given, even when specific actions are condemned.

    You never know when they could turn out to be friendly to Eastasia.

    Britain and the U.S. are depicted as getting ready to improve relations with Iran. There is no noticeable hatred of the U.S.

    They have the claim about Khamenei having issued a fatwa condemning the production and possesion of weapons of mass destruction.

    There is no such fatwa. If there were, it wouldn’t mean anything. If Khamenei wanted to make official Iranian policy not to have a nuclear weapon, he could make a declaration in his official position.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  99. “This kind of thing is actually a pretty common thing.”

    Sammy – Can you provide some examples?

    I’ve worked in the corporate world my entire working career and deliberately withholding material negative information from the boss and embarrassing him publicly does not tend to be a trait which lavishly rewarded.

    How exactly do you form your opinions?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. 87. “An idiot for believing the lies?

    Th[a]t doesn’t make him into an idiot.”

    Sam, seriously, are you good at something? Do you have some comparative advantage in the marketplace by which you make your living?

    As a number have asked, what are you doing here? I’d guess on the average day you put up more verbiage than anyone else?

    Rico included.

    Do you really think you meet the average around here, in any capacity or quality?

    Frankly the import of your words is that you are an idiot, big time.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  101. 94. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/23/2013 @ 12:12 pm

    The WH spin isn’t even working with ex-WH spinmeisters.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UvDDzCuzdY

    Sammy’s spin is even worse.

    I just said Obama is not a total idiot. And that others have persisted with mistakes, and tried to spin things as OK. I didn’t say this was anything good or sensible. I just said Obama is not unique in this. It’s happened before.

    You say, maybe he’s worse? More incompetent than the average incompetent? I don’t know. This hasn’t gone on for very long.

    Other people could do this too. Others haven’t confessed mistakes and retreated on the first day. or even the tenth day. Really.

    And there’s probably less forcing Obama to confess things are not working than there is in the corporate world. The thing about government is that it almost never corrects its mistakes.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  102. I’d just like ONE example of what Sammy says we see in the corporate world all the time that looks remotely like the Obamacare exchange roll-out.

    The Obamacare rollout which isn’t all that unique, really for Obama.

    If any of us had done what Sebelius claims to have done to her boss, kept him in the dark about what a charlie foxtrot a project of this magnitude was going to be when it debuted to national media attention, would any of our bosses have reconfirmed their confidence in us?

    Not that I believe any of the above, but if Sebelius for the sake of argument if Obama didn’t know then it’s because she didn’t tell him.

    Speaking of Sebelius.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/23/now-she-tells-us-sebelius-says-obamacares-exchange-website-needed-six-years-of-development-instead-of-two/

    Looks like Aetna chief Bertolini is right. If this POS needed six years of development then it won’t be fixed until after Obama leaves office after his second term. Considering all the time they wasted so far.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  103. 101. …And there’s probably less forcing Obama to confess things are not working than there is in the corporate world. The thing about government is that it almost never corrects its mistakes.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a) — 10/23/2013 @ 12:57 pm

    What do you mean probably, Sammy? Apple can’t put a gun to your head and force you to buy an iPhone.

    The CEO of Apple can’t go to Congress and demand more money to throw down a toilet, no negotiations, or he’ll put the country in default.

    Apple can’t print its own money.

    Again, what do you probably? I think the differences are glaringly obvious.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  104. You say, maybe he’s worse? More incompetent than the average incompetent? I don’t know. This hasn’t gone on for very long.

    Sammy, it’s been going on since January 2009.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  105. Sammy, the kind of utter disaster that the ACA website rollout represents does happen in the corporate world.

    But when it does, the business goes out of business. See: Nokia.

    SPQR (768505)

  106. It’s almost like he’s lazy uninterested incurious perfect or something.

    East Bay Jay (a5dac7)

  107. http://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2012/09/03/did-the-new-york-times-just-get-obama-fired/

    From September of last year, when there was still time.

    New York Times Proves Clint Eastwood Correct — Obama Is Lousy CEO

    …1. How he vastly overrates his capabilities:

    But even those loyal to Mr. Obama say that his quest for excellence can bleed into cockiness and that he tends to overestimate his capabilities. The cloistered nature of the White House amplifies those tendencies, said Matthew Dowd, a former adviser to President George W. Bush, adding that the same thing happened to his former boss. “There’s a reinforcing quality,” he said, a tendency for presidents to think, I’m the best at this.

    2. How he spends extraordinary amounts of time and energy to compete in — trivialities…

    …Kantor’s portrait of Obama is stunning. It paints a picture of a CEO who is unfocused and lost.

    Imagine, for a minute, that you are on the board of directors of a company. You have a CEO who is not meeting his numbers and who is suffering a declining popularity with his customers. You want to help this CEO recover, but then you learn he doesn’t want your help. He is smarter than you and eager to tell you this. Confidence or misplaced arrogance? You’re not sure at first. If the company was performing well, you’d ignore it. But the company is performing poorly, so you can’t.

    With some digging, you learn, to your horror, that the troubled CEO spends a lot of time on — what the hell? — bowling? Golf? Three point shots? While the company is going south?…

    What do mean it hasn’t been going on for very long, Sammy? Everybody else has noticed. Why haven’t you?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  108. Sammy– This is ridiculous. If he was not competent to manage the outputs and appointees of his presidency and if he is unwilling to take responsibility for anything about his presidency then he had no business running for the office. Your excuses make it sound like you have zero problem with his being disengaged and aloof from the governing process and that after five years you think it’s just fine for him to be an actor merely superficially playing the role of a United States president.

    elissa (f45420)

  109. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/23/2013 @ 12:04 pm

    New Coke and the Edsel are relatively speaking success stories. </i.

    How many weeks did it take for them to back down?

    New Coke was introduced on April 23, 1985 says Wikipedia. Coca-Cola executives announced the return of the original formula on July 10. 77 days. Eleven weeks.

    The Edsel was introduced "E Day"—September 4, 1957, says Wikipedia. Ford announced the end of the Edsel program on Thursday, November 19, 1959. More than two years later.

    There is precedent for this. Obama is not the stupidiest or most unconcerned person who ever lived.

    And while, at this stage, we have a website that simply not working at all, we also have a website that is being changed, not a finished product, so the idea of a website is stable.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  110. Once upon a time Ptolemy’s explanation of the heavens held sway for say 1500 years. I gather it divided the heavens into seven or more vaults centered on the Earth, rotating about it in a concentric fashion.

    Well astrologer’s noted that the planets are wont to enter short periods of retrograde motion with respect to the others and ad hoc epicycles were added. After a while these multiplied rendering a lovely, simple symmetric theory ugly and complicated.

    Sammy’s ad hoc explanations, having no overarching commonalities, to explain why the LightBringer is not, in fact, a maladjusted mediocrity now certainly number in the many hundreds.

    An educated, thoughtful man would recognize the game is up.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  111. Sammy, you are making less sense than usual.

    SPQR (768505)

  112. “And that others have persisted with mistakes, and tried to spin things as OK.”

    Sammy – Mistakes are different than rolling out nonfunctional products and having your subordinates claim they hid the nonfunctional nature of the products from you.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  113. He found out when everyone else did by reading it in the newspaper or something.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  114. “if he is unwilling to take responsibility for anything about his presidency then he had no business running for the office.”

    elissa – He did kill bin Laden.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  115. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/23/2013 @ 1:08 pm

    What do mean it hasn’t been going on for very long, Sammy? Everybody else has noticed. Why haven’t you?

    The problem with the website, which is what we’re talking about, hasn’t gone on for very long.

    While it’s true the website has been worked on for almost two years, there was nothing to draw attention to it. It only became a problem when it was brought online.

    There are deep, deep problems with the design of Obamacare itself, but that hasn’t had a chance to manifest itself, and is almost irrelevant to the problem of the website. The problem with Obamacare is that it’s a “business model” that won’t work. That includes even the penalties, which were deliberately made light. The whole thing is a compromise with reality. And a lot of people involved probably know it.

    Obama probably doesn’t, because he’s probably never been involved in anything that just didn’t work (where he couldn’t ignore it) so the idea of something not working is probably very alien to him.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  116. In fact, Edsels would have been built in any number the public wished to purchase, had they so desired. Such is the free market. However, Obamacare is not even slightly available even though it is mandatory. Slight difference, I feel.

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  117. Obama has no fixes. The site should have been decommissioned because it simply does not work. But because of Obama’s incompetence, they backed themselves in a corner – while bragging about “winning” – and refuse to acknowledge reality.

    SPQR (768505)

  118. And while, at this stage, we have a website that simply not working at all, we also have a website that is being changed, not a finished product, so the idea of a website is stable.

    Is there a Google translation for this?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  119. Shorter SF. It’s only broken if you try to use it. So don’t use it.

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  120. I remember a Bush-Brian Williams interview where Williams told the President “you don’t really expect the American people to believe that, do you” after Bush was spinning a positive story on Iraq during a tough time. Nobody’s shooting at HHS and the media is playing along with the White House. Still, even though this is a far bigger management fiasco.

    Obama has done lots that I disagree with but this right here………..how is this not impeachable? You roll out a major website and you don’t even try it? You’re not even curious a little bit? The said Bush was incurious because he didn’t sniff out the fact that the Sunni-Shia thing was going to trump a united Iraq for awhile. Almost nobody did, though, so if Bush whiffed, so did most of the Left and Right. But this here, that’s dereliction of duty. Worse than voting for a bill you haven’t read, this is the President not even making a pretense of executing a law……a settled law as a matter of fact.

    Why am I thinking that he cancelled the Obamacare test drive to spend an extra hour working on his Fantasy Football team? Can you imagine his league with Valerie, Jay and Gibbsy? I wonder who’s the best at throwing matches when playing the boss? I’m thinking Gibbs picks baseball players to ensure he never wins.

    East Bay Jay (a5dac7)

  121. Gazzer, that’s an understatement.

    SPQR (768505)

  122. Yes, daley, and he did manage to force himself to get involved with that all important Gates/police acting stupidly matter.

    elissa (f45420)

  123. …and find time to call recently out footballers but not bereaved parents.

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  124. Divorced from reality and he’s eager to share the blame, now that he’s been shaken out of his slumber

    Colonel Haiku (404b97)

  125. 119. LOL.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  126. @DanaBashCNN senior dem tells me to expect every sen dem running in ’14 to back proposal to delay #ACA enrollment deadline

    SPQR (768505)

  127. ‘game over, man, we’re toast’

    http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/20100

    narciso (3fec35)

  128. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/23/2013 @ 1:20 pm

    Sammy – Mistakes are different than rolling out nonfunctional products and having your subordinates claim they hid the nonfunctional nature of the products from you.

    Kathleen Sebelius is not claiming she hid the non-functional nature of the website from Obama. She claiming she didn’t know, too. They’re blaming contractors. Outsiders. (not the people who hired them, by the way)

    So now they want to bring in insurance companies. Verizon. Others whose names are being kept secret.

    And former Bain and Company employee Jeffrey Zients, who also worked for David G. Bradley and took two companies public whose business was tp advise corporations on best practices in management, strategy and operations and became a multimillionaire, and who has worked, off and on, at OMB – from April 2009 to November 2010 and again from January 2012 to April 2013 – and is now scheduled to become head of the White House’s National Economic Council on January 1, 2014,.

    He will now take some time to tutor Kathleen Sebelius in management theory or something.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  129. 127. Eject! EJECT!!!

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  130. #4… if only, felipe. But in the crib would be much more appropriate…

    Colonel Haiku (819c71)

  131. Apparently the word on CNN is that the site is irreparable.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/10/23/CNN-Ocare-Site-doomed-riddled-with-security-issues

    Obama is in a bit of a sticky wicket. This is the beginning of the end of this iteration of liberalism. Buh-bye, Obama.

    Patricia (be0117)

  132. Add me to the list of people who are skeptical that President Obama was not interested in knowing what was going on with the signature issue of his Presidency – Obamacare for godsakes- and not to mention 1/6 of our economy.
    So what was he doing? (What does he do besides do speeches? Even when the woman was fainting he kept going back to the microphone-odd)

    Syria and Iran are on back burners because they ate his lunch and got away with it.
    Immigration is still off in the distance
    Afghanistan is an afterthought.
    Jobs are still a #1 priority for 60 straight month of nothing.

    Oh I know… the smartest President ever was overwhelmed by the “Tea Party” and of course by all that time needed to check off the list of parks and monuments to close.

    steveg (794291)

  133. Sammy–this is the man who has access to the nuclear suitcase. This is the man who is widely described as the leader of the free world. He lives in the Peoples’ house and is liveried around in Air Force One and Marine One. Why do you feel the need to treat him like a low educated out of the loop mid-level bureaucrat who has no authority?

    elissa (f45420)

  134. 128. Gollum, I worked on big iron, million dollar optical scanning systems with robots and databases of millions of items, anomalies from the standard.

    The product put together vendor supplied electronics and code, but our overlay ran more than a million lines.

    When a release approached all the developers, say six weeks out, would be on bug detail. We’d be assigned a bug in someone else’s work to fix. Small stuff, like say a logon failure.

    There is no way in creation this thing will be fixed. There are scores of databases involved, security issues galore.

    It’s dead Sam.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  135. Sen. Manchin reportedly drafting a bill to delay individual mandate.

    The Democrats shut down government to prevent something that they will now introduce legislation to do …

    Who “won” the shutdown again?

    SPQR (768505)

  136. 117. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/23/2013 @ 1:27 pm

    Obama has no fixes. The site should have been decommissioned because it simply does not work.

    Yes. It probably would be simpler to just start up all over again. Or borrow some software. As someone wrote, it should have been open sourced. Many people would have amotive to make this work.

    What did they need:

    1) List insurance policies.

    2) Let people estimate for themselves the costs based on figures they supply.

    3) When they are ready, let people enroll. This entails verifying identity, certain facts on other government databases, and co-ordinating with insurance companies. This could be done on a delayed basis. File and wait. You could actually reconcile everything only once a week.

    4) Contact addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail addreses etc could be collected to confirm actuasl enrollment.

    5) A method of cancelling or changing insurance companies also needs to be done.

    6) People who do not get a subsidy can be directed directly to the insurance companies because the website is actually only needed to verify and certify the subsidy (which is actually only a tentative number)

    This could even be done separately by the IRS. Or some separate website.

    The only other use of the website is comparison shopping, and some prevention of double enrollment.

    But because of Obama’s incompetence, they backed themselves in a corner – while bragging about “winning” – and refuse to acknowledge reality.

    There;s been some pathetic spin. We’ve heard “use the telephone number” The problem there is that the people at the other end of the telephone line can’t use the computer system for enrolling any better.

    This bespeaks not understanding what is wrong.

    And also that the problem was caused by high numbers of attempts to log in – which was also supposed to prove how much people were interested in buying insurance through their website, when realy it proved just how much free advertising y Senator Ted Cruz and the Heritage Foundation could drum up.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  137. I don’t believe that Obama was out of the loop. I believe that he was approached with the problems.

    I believe that Obama did not bother to understand what he was being briefed, as usual since he is smarter than everyone in the room in his mind. And I believe that Obama decided that the website would go up Oct 1 regardless because he did not listen to those who told him that the website would be utterly nonfunctional.

    SPQR (768505)

  138. Sammy, do not repeat the falsehood that the website does not work because of volume. That’s been repeatedly debunked.

    SPQR (768505)

  139. Even the journolist parrot isn’t repeating that talking point at this juncture:

    http://m.nationalreview.com/corner/362025/healthcaregov-de-facto-shutdown-david-french

    narciso (3fec35)

  140. 136. “Or borrow some software.”

    It’s just zeros and ones at the binary level, run it thru the jiggle table and sweep up the errors off the floor.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  141. “I believe that Obama did not bother to understand what he was being briefed, as usual since he is smarter than everyone in the room in his mind.”

    SPQR – Obama is a better website developer than the people Sebelius contracted with to develop the 404Care site.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  142. Obama has been spinning and talking his way out of messes for years. He assumed he could do it again with this just like all the other times. I don’t think he can this time, though, even with OFA and his media buddies.

    elissa (f45420)

  143. “She claiming she didn’t know, too.”

    Sammy – Gross negligence on her part if that is what she is now claiming.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  144. There was an HHS Inspector General report in August that outlined problems with inadequate testing.

    Sebelius is a liar, Obama is a liar and neither is being challenged in the MSM.

    This is why Sebelius is afraid to show up to a Congressional committee hearing.

    SPQR (768505)

  145. Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 10/23/2013 @ 1:50 pm

    There is no way in creation this thing will be fixed. There are scores of databases involved, security issues galore.

    It’s dead Sam

    They’ll probably find a way around. They can cut way back on what the website attemots to do. The biggest problem is that they want to do all of that in real time.

    They’ve got to check about seven or eight government databases, and maybe a credit report too, to verify facts or probabilities. These apparently normally can be queried – or othersise what did they think they were doing – but that is only to qualify someone and tell the insurance company somebody is eligible for a tax credit/subsidy and that they should reduce the monthly premium. Or to direct someone away and into Medicare or Medicaid or a different state.

    They really don’t have to reconcile all this information in real time. They can prevent double coverage and calculate tentative subsidies on a weekly even a monthly basis. No enrollment gets processed anyway in less than two weeks, (probably because the insurance companies themselves can’t do it)

    And someone could be allowed to buy a policy on
    a tentative basis – if it turns out to be double coverage it can be cancelled and the premiums refunded, if it turns out someone is not eligible for a subsidy they can be billed.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  146. “Yes, daley, and he did manage to force himself to get involved with that all important Gates/police acting stupidly matter.”

    elissa – Don’t forget about filling out those NCAA basketball tourney picks. No easy chore there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  147. Thinking about Obama confronting mistakes, maybe he is very persistent in error. I don’t know that he’s ever experienced a mistake in his campaigns he couldn’t ignore. (mistakes in policy positions can be ignored)

    He’s never been confronted with something major not working out. He’s never had to. Everything has gone right for him since at least 2004.

    When has he ever made a major course correction in his campaigns? Has he ever replaced anybody? I’m not sure.

    Another comment at theothermccain was that Obama “has no intellectual curiosity” and I think that’s true.

    Also:

    “and there’s nobody who’d tell the emperor that he has no clothes.”

    That’s true for most presidents. Only Joe Biden would tell him maybe, but Biden is probably wrong when he does.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  148. Gross negligence, wrapped in a thick layer of incompetence, compounded by Teh Won’s belief that he’s the smartest man on the planet.

    Colonel Haiku (5348bf)

  149. Now I hate Slick Willie, but Erskine-Bowles, former deputy COS said he could hand BJ a single-spaced page of bureau-speak. He’d run his index finger from top to bottom, lines per second, and read it with total recall.

    Unfortunately he could never leave a decision alone.

    Raise your hands, anyone, if you think were dealing with a bright guy in Soft Bottom.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  150. “They’ve got to check about seven or eight government databases, and maybe a credit report too, to verify facts or probabilities. These apparently normally can be queried – or othersise what did they think they were doing – but that is only to qualify someone and tell the insurance company somebody is eligible for a tax credit/subsidy and that they should reduce the monthly premium.”

    Sammy – If they have waived income verification the first year, what you describe are completely unnecessary steps.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  151. 144. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/23/2013 @ 2:06 pm

    There was an HHS Inspector General report in August that outlined problems with inadequate testing.

    I doubt that anybody ever told Sebelius that there was a possibility that the website might just not be possible to use.

    This is why Sebelius is afraid to show up to a Congressional committee hearing. </i.

    I would think trying to avoid demonstrating incompetence – or political favortism/crony capitalism – would be a reason.

    Also, they are still hoping for good news. They want to be able to say now everything – or at least some things – are fixed. I would think that would be a reason someone might wnt to delay testimony. Of course they don't understand what's wrong yet.

    And we're not getting into the law itself yet.

    There are other problems with the way Obama does things
    I'm only talking

    (The problems with Obamacare itself will manifest themselves later.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  152. Perhaps Solar minima and increase volcanism are linked

    Um, what?! How could they possibly be?

    Milhouse (b95258)

  153. One cannot help but wonder what would be going on and be different if we had a competent and non-senile Vice President backing up Obama. Yeah, I know– another alternate history scenario ala JD’s famous uncle/aunt.

    elissa (f45420)

  154. Sammy, you “doubt” it? Based on what bizarre fantasy do you just decide to “doubt” something you have no supporting evidence for?

    SPQR (768505)

  155. == doubt that anybody ever told Sebelius that there was a possibility that the website might just not be possible to use.==

    Sammy, over the years when I’ve either honchoed a project or been part of a team responsible to produce a “deliverable” (that’s what we call stuff in the real world) I’ve asked the uncomfortable questions myself–not waited for somebody else to remember to tell me stuff, or naively hope that they’ll have the balls to tell me the unvarnished truth without prompting. That’s what Kathleen and Barry are supposed to do when they’re spending our tax dollars.

    elissa (f45420)

  156. Good news everyone! I understand, perfectly, why Sammy is here and what is up with his comments. The bad news is I cannot explain it. That is all.

    felipe (6100bc)

  157. To answer Sammy’s commentaries on software development and how it SHOULD have been done:

    Yes, there were ways to do it right. Yes, there were ways to do it more simply. There were ways to do it with more security. There were ways to do it with transparentness and responsiveness.

    These methods are well understood. You can read magazines and articles on how to do them. Skilled managers nowadays begin with these techniques in mind, design to them, then modify the plan using the flexibility that such design techniques grant when the rubber hits the road and it looks like there might be a crash.

    None of that was used. They had the wrong goals – they wanted a pretty site and they wanted to reap all your personal information so they would own you before they sent you to the actual information you wanted. And even at that they didn’t succeed.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  158. 152. I’m a dilettante(got a ‘C’ in Electromagnetism, too much vector calculus, div, grad, curl) but here’s an opening link:

    http://solen.info/solar/

    Note in the top graph the ‘ap’ blue line trolling on the bottom. That is a measure of a Solar|Terrestrial magnetic confluence monitored for at least two centuries. There are other such measures, ‘kp’ is one, that measure the interaction of the Solar dynamo created magnetism and the secular magnetism associated with the Earth.

    When the ‘ap’ spikes, severe earthquakes often occur also. The Japanese tsunami is a case in point, but also note the times of the recent spikes and the dates here:

    http://www.iris.edu/sm2/

    A ‘scientist’ would rightly dispute this evidence. Unfortunately he’s got nothing otherwise but “correlation does not equal causation”.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  159. Sammy, do not repeat the falsehood that the website does not work because of volume. That’s been repeatedly debunked.

    It’s also pretty moronic. This isn’t a programming problem, it’s a top-level design problem. Mostly in that it was designed by lawyers and bureaucrats and never made the slightest logical sense. If the same people had designed Obama’s GOtV software, Romney would be president today.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  160. 157. Nicely put.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  161. It’s just zeros and ones at the binary level

    But, let’s let Dogbert explain.

    And why doesn’t Obama have pointy hair?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  162. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/23/2013 @ 1:23 pm

    Any South-side hood in Chicago could have done that if given the opportunity.

    elissa, many have stated that politics is show-business for ugly people those of a less-than-attractive physicality.
    This actor cannot even remember his lines.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  163. O.k., for reals. Some commenters have wondered about SF’s “Raison d’etre” (so to speak). Not to be too cheeky about it, I believe the question to be (a la Turing) too meaningless to discuss. What we have before us is evidence (not proof) of an effort to imitate commenting behavior. Many of us subconsciously look for the presence of mind in others comments. Often, we sense an absence of this presence of mind in SF’s responses. Can anyone say that they “know” Sammy in the same sense that they might “know” JD? Is there a personality “there” with whom we can engage in a nuanced way, that provides confirmation of a “spirit”. Are there acknowledgements of inside jokes, camaraderie, animosity, irony? I’ll just stop right there.

    felipe (6100bc)

  164. My comment on this over at Insty:

    Some things are so FUBAR, you just have to walk away from them.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  165. SO, now they are going to delay the mandate — which begs the question of why they kept the government shut down — but it doesn’t help the millions who lost their current plan and have nothing to replace it with.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  166. Subject of 163, meet predicate of 164.

    I see a beautiful future for the two of you.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  167. One cannot help but wonder what would be going on and be different if we had a competent and non-senile Vice President backing up Obama.

    Probably no different. Historically presidents have ignored their vice-presidents, no matter how competent. Clinton and W. Bush were exceptions, but do you seriously expect 0bama would be one too? He ignores everyone else, except maybe Jarrett, so why would he pay any attention to a competent VP, had he supplied himself with one?

    Milhouse (b95258)

  168. Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 10/23/2013 @ 3:16 pm

    This is what I call “presence of mind”.

    felipe (6100bc)

  169. 168. Thanks felipe, I’m becoming rather fond of you.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  170. It’s the Elbonian IT division,

    narciso (3fec35)

  171. Note in the top graph the ‘ap’ blue line trolling on the bottom. That is a measure of a Solar|Terrestrial magnetic confluence monitored for at least two centuries. There are other such measures, ‘kp’ is one, that measure the interaction of the Solar dynamo created magnetism and the secular magnetism associated with the Earth.

    When the ‘ap’ spikes, severe earthquakes often occur also.

    OK, I guess that’s at least somewhat plausible.

    Milhouse (b95258)

  172. “…and we programmed in ones and in zeros,
    and sometimes we ran out of ones.”

    Milhouse (b95258)

  173. This is what I call “presence of mind”.

    Argh! should not have used scare-quotes. Implies disrespect. Me-funny disease.

    -slips back under rock-

    felipe (6100bc)

  174. -from under rock-

    Thanks man, glad, I did not offend.

    felipe (6100bc)

  175. “And this narrative [media piling on WH] if the system improves and millions of people sign up for healthcare… And if winged-monkeys fly out of my ass”

    – Howie Kurtz, just a few minutes ago

    okay… I added that last sentence.

    Colonel Haiku (ee85e3)

  176. Narrative may change

    Colonel Haiku (ee85e3)

  177. 171. I’m not saying I understand the connection but the Earth has an iron core. It is believe electic currents traverse the core.

    Those currents create a magnetic field. A changing magnetic field creates electric currents.

    The Earths magnetic field is currently bifurcating, magnetic north having moved from circa Greenland west as another north has popped up in Siberia.

    The end result could be a flip but some believe a flip, occurring every 600K years or so, false starts thousands of times before settling in.

    How this interacts with semi-fluid movements of magma below the surface is beyond me.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  178. Kurtz is not that selfaware, Colonel.

    narciso (3fec35)

  179. He is definitely a nitwit.

    Colonel Haiku (ee85e3)

  180. Mr Finkelman wrote, well above:

    I think there tend to be motives. It’s not for nothing.

    A person is concerned about his reputation, even apart from getting votes in the next election. It impacts the ability to get things done, or do other things later, and in some cases, confession may reveal other, more important lies.

    No President ever has had less to worry about when it comes to his reputation; his sycophants, who apparently are legion, will always adore him. He has raised a personality cult that would have been the envy of an Communist leader. I have actually seen (supposedly) serious people say that his image should be added to Mt Rushmore. And conservatives will always hate his guts, because of the damage he has done and continues to do to the United States.

    Thirty-six Roman emperors, along with 27 members of their families, were deified; you could probably get a substantial number of Americans — including some atheists! — who would deify Barack Hussein Obama.

    The very serious Dana (af9ec3)

  181. Mr Finkelman, I have to ask: why do you always give President Obama the benefit of the doubt? The man is supposed to be President of the United States, a rather big job, one which he twice told the voters he was able enough and responsible enough to handle, and the public twice elected him. When a man tells me that he is the man for the big job, I expect him to be man enough to own up to his responsibilities.

    Instead, with our 44th President, it’s always somebody else’s fault, usually the 43rd President’s. Here we have an action, taken by his Administration, pushed by his Administration, and handled by his Administration, and when it fails, he has to hide behind Kathleen Sebelius’ skirts.

    Kind of like he hid behind Hillary Clinton’s thong panties after Benghazi.

    How can you support, or even give the benefit of the doubt, to a man person who asked for responsibility and then hides from it? How can you make excuses for a man person who is completely immune to an punishment for failures or lapses or mistakes still avoiding taking responsibility for them?

    The inquisitive Dana (af9ec3)

  182. Perhaps, sometime on the night of September 30th, George Bush and Dick Cheney hacked the wonderful Obaminablecare website and sabotaged 50 million lines of code.

    The conspiracy theorist Dana (af9ec3)

  183. i’m pretty sure they did it on September 31st.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  184. 177. Caveat: An electric charge crossing magnetic field lines feels a force at right angles to its direction of movement.

    Friction of moving magma on adjoining strata would constitute an electic current and thus create a secular field.

    So its conceivable that spikes in the ‘ap’ could be generated by a physical movement, i.e., the cause of the quake itself.

    But I speculate.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  185. Sammy — You do remember Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf (Baghdad Bob)? 0’s pronouncements of “tech surges” remind me of him. Does 0 really think all that needs to be done is to “cross-circuit to B!” Magic thinking in the extreme.

    I know how to plan and build things like this, and from what is publicly known I know what some of the potential problems are. If I was approached and shown the specs, I would have declined, or quit. Well, there weren’t specs, which would have been a major clue. Without requirements, you can’t design. You might as well have monkeys typing code. This thing didn’t sink, what there is was built underwater, and it didn’t float.

    htom (412a17)

  186. Sammy, sometimes it is better for people to believe you to be a fool, than for you to click on “submit comment” and remove all doubt.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  187. I will note that the California website works quite well, although some of the information is out of date (particularly on doctors / plans).

    Their secret? I do not have to identify myself or create an account. Just how many, what ages, zip code and income and it gives me a list of plans. I can give it preferences (silver, hmo, etc) and it will filter the plans down and give me the pre- and post-subsidy amounts per month in a grid. Doesn’t seem to be a “busy” time either.

    Of course, California used gen-u-ine Silicon valley professionals instead of Elbonians. All the apologists in the world cannot explain why the federal site sucks and the CA site just works.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  188. Scott Adams has fodder and owes the world some great Dilbert cartoons about this fiasco. Let’s hope he does not disappoint.

    elissa (f45420)

  189. Why is this plausible deniability thing supposed to be a clever political excuse?

    Obamacare is basically all about the exchanges, which is the website. So Obamacare is a website. Obama never checked on the progress to his only achievement as president? It’s an excuse for him that he didn’t know it wasn’t working?

    It’s like any of us telling our boss we never checked to see if our work was magically getting done. What is the president presiding over, anyway?

    Dustin (2719aa)

  190. 180. Comment by The very serious Dana (af9ec3) — 10/23/2013 @ 3:53 pm

    No President ever has had less to worry about when it comes to his reputation; his sycophants, who apparently are legion, will always adore him.

    I think he might be concerned about people who aren’t his syncophants. And maybe he feels he can only keep his syncophants by never admitting how bad things were botched. Some of them, at least. Some may not care.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  191. The problem with the website, which is what we’re talking about, hasn’t gone on for very long.

    No, we weren’t talking just about the website, Sammy. We were talking about Obama.

    Hence the title of this thread.

    Claim: Obama Didn’t Know ObamaCare Web Site Sucked

    So we’re discussing a certain leadership style. Or lack thereof. M’kay?

    While it’s true the website has been worked on for almost two years, there was nothing to draw attention to it. It only became a problem when it was brought online.

    WTFO? There was plenty to draw attention to it. Obama kept pushing back deadlines until after the 2012 election precisely because they didn’t want the public to know what he was planning to do them if reelected.

    It’s still going on. Sebelius has been illegally subsidizing the Medicare Advantage program out of a pot of federal money not intended for the purpose because it doesn’t run out until the end of 2014. Which will hide from seniors the effects of Obama’s cuts until after the midterms.

    What the, umm, heck do you mean there was nothing to call attention to it?

    Have you been in a coma, Sammy? Taken a baseball bat to the head?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  192. This thing was put together with spit and bailing wire,

    http://nypost.com/2013/10/22/obamacare-website-developers-saw-red-flags/

    narciso (3fec35)

  193. Sammy, please stop beggaring belief to the point it’s no longer believable.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  194. 194. This thing was put together with spit and bailing wire…

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 10/23/2013 @ 5:44 pm

    You forgot to mention the staples, duct tape, JB Weld, Silly Putty, bubblegum, and post it notes.

    Dammit, sir!

    Steve57 (022c57)

  195. Obama didn’t know that Bill Ayers was a terrorist. He was just a guy in the neighborhood.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  196. Obama never knows nothin,’ ES, until it’s on Entertainment Tonight.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  197. Scott Adams has fodder

    See #161.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  198. Obama never knows nothin,’ ES, until it’s on Entertainment Tonight.

    Or ESPN News

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  199. Barack Hussein Obama. THE single point of failure in all things.

    PBUH

    Steve57 (022c57)

  200. 200. …Or ESPN News

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 10/23/2013 @ 6:03 pm

    If I were a member of the WH press corps I’d never ask Preezy Tiger Beat a substantive question. It’d always be about his March Madness brackets or who’s gonna win the superbowl or some reality show POS like Snooki. Whatever was the pop question of the day.

    And if my readers asked, WTF would I ask him about something serious?

    There are reasons why I’m not part of President Miley Cyrus’ entourage.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  201. Re: #189… I worked w/Adams back in the late 80s/early 90s, elissa, when he was the right hand man of the Dr. Evil of our company. Trust me, he will never run out of material.

    Colonel Haiku (819c71)

  202. I don’t understand why our pals Tlaloc, Kman, Perry, et al, don’t stop by as often as they used to.
    After all, it’s not like Patterico.com is a difficult website to navigate. Or whatever.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  203. Regarding the link to Strata-Sphere.com given in #127, AJ Strata has SEVERAL articles up (Oct 15 & later) that explain the Level Of Fail the Healthcare.gov website displays. (Note- he says he pretty much does this for a living– digging thru massive programs to find and fix fail points). AJ does an excellent job in making the scope of the problems comprehensible to us normal / non-techie people.

    At any rate, he says BEST CASE is that it will take *MONTHS* to fix… (and also: adding more warm bodies to the fixit pool will increase, not decrease, the time necessary to solve the problems.) Plenty of time for popcorn, we can all sit back & watch the show….

    A_Nonny_Mouse (57cacf)

  204. By the way, speaking of commercial failures, Forbes put the Pinto on its list of worst cars of all times.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4063790/ns/business-forbes_com/t/worst-cars-all-time/#.UmhqkhCYaQk

    Guess what? Compared to Obamacare Ford’s four passenger stove was sheer genius, and is still working fairly da** well thank you very much.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saX25ZLJkTM#t=40

    Ford Pinto Drag Race 1

    Tell me about Obamacare, Sammy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ons4zNn7JjU

    Compared to Obamacare, Ford Pintos are still working fairly well. I read that Obamacare was going to deliver a 1970s era DMV experience over the internet.

    It’s worse than that. It’s a Brezhnev era LADA dealership experience over the dealership.

    Dealer: Comrade, congratulations on waiting five years to succesfully order your LADA.

    Customer: Thank you.

    Dealer: Your LADA will be here in ten years.

    Customer: Morning or afternoon?

    Dealer: What difference does it make?

    Customer: The plumber is coming in the morning.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ons4zNn7JjU

    Steve57 (022c57)

  205. It looks like the ball is being taken out of Lil’ Orphan Bambie’s hands.

    According to Dana Bash, 100% of Dem Senators up for re-election are for Mandate Delay.

    Manchin authoring a bill. No word on whether Reid will let it hit the floor, but I sense desperation and desperate leeches commit desperate acts.

    Dingy don’t have a pint to spare by the looks of ‘im.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  206. It’s a Brezhnev era LADA dealership experience over the dealership internet.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  207. If congress holds hearings on this fiasco, anticipate the Democrats trying to turn the focus to the developers… Promises that they made and didn’t deliver on (as if there wasn’t any oversight or accountability from Obama administration required)… anything but holding Obama and the Dims accountable.

    Colonel Haiku (0f1c4b)

  208. At this point, I’m a little conflicted about facillitating a delay.

    Since low information voters were not sufficiently concerned about the theoretical aspects of ObamaCare in 2012, we need them to FEEL the real aspects of ObamaCare prior to the 2014 midterms, so they’ll vote against those who support it, and we can thereby WIN and repeal it once and for all. A delay may enable Obama and his sycophants among the media to convince voters to give it “one more chance” to work IF there’s a delay.
    They’ll be saying, “Well, it didn’t work because of the computer glitches, but it’ll work as a system once all the kinds are ironed out.”

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  209. The insurance markets are already essentially ruined. The peeps are getting cancellations of their existing policies by the hundreds of thousands. Many underemployed young and the soon to retire are working 29 hour weeks.

    I am not sure what the answer is at this point. But protecting the Dem pols who are up for election in 2014 (especially after the way their party treated the R’s and Teas of late) is not very high on my list.

    elissa (f45420)

  210. A vote to delay is a vote to keep this monstrosity alive. Give it to the people and give it to them good. It’s the only way to rid ourselves of it.

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  211. On a side note, tonight’s Nightly News had a segment on the debacle that is the Obamacare website. The newscaster followed several people unable to get on the site, let alone register and apply.

    Without skipping a beat, the newscaster segued to an Obamacare expert who admitted that people were not only upset and angry at the failure of the website but if they were able to log on and apply, dismayed to discover that their options were way more expensive than what they already had!

    Of course it begs the unasked question: if things are less expensive as they already are, why do we need something new…and more expensive?

    Of course, the reporter failed to question this, which is unfortunate because the question could not have begged itself more clearly and distinctly.

    Dana (6178d5)

  212. I just emailed my congressman. Told him no delay.

    Let. It. Burn.

    SPQR (768505)

  213. Issa has time to grant amnesty to illegals, but can’t finish anything else he is in charge of. Team r to the rescue. Jhmfc.

    mg (31009b)

  214. Almost 750,000 cancellation notices went out to people on the individual market this week.

    Dem Senators calling for delay of individual mandate.

    JD (e402ce)

  215. The White House is going to delay the deadline for
    enrollment to avoid the fine; instead of February 15th, the
    deadline will now be March 31st.

    Icy (88972a)

  216. Part of this (perhaps only a small part) is the propensity of bad managers to measure programmer and coder output in “lines of code”.

    This can become
    a rather artificial
    means of measurement
    as the number
    of lines
    has
    little to do with the content.

    I remember a programming class that I was required to take, as I had no documented academic exposure to that language. Most of my classmates struggled with the first assignment, turning in pages and pages of code that worked poorly, if at all. My complete assignment was two sheets, one of the code, one of the results. The TA gave it an “F”; I went to the professor’s office hours and wanted an explanation. He looked at it, changed the “F” to “A+”, and called the TA in. “It was too short to have been the complete assignment!” The ensuing lecture to the assembled TAs was a learning experience for all. I was told to turn in the second assignment directly to the professor, who glanced at it, marked it A, and told me to skip the rest of the class and the final; my grade for the class would be A, and I should trot upstairs now to talk to the head of the math department, as he wanted to hire me to run the Math Computer Lab.

    htom (412a17)

  217. So in the immortal words of Alcee Hastings they’re now just “makin’ up the rules as they go along”?

    elissa (f45420)

  218. Yeah, pretty much elissa.

    It’s now like playing checkers with a three year old.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  219. Mr Finkelman, I have to ask: why do you always give President Obama the benefit of the doubt?

    Come on now. After all, Sammy does lean left, which seeps through in his various posts, certainly when tied together. Gotta give him some credit for trying not to be a stereotypical immature, bratty liberal, since he does comment in a manner that on the surface at least appears reasonable and well-informed (ie, frequent use of copy/paste). That’s more than can be said about almost any other “progressive” in this forum.

    Mark (58ea35)

  220. It’s beginning to sound like CalvinBall.

    htom (412a17)

  221. David Harsanyi: What’s wrong with rooting for failure? Nothing, if it’s Obamacare we’re talking about.

    http://thefederalist.com/2013/10/23/theres-nothing-wrong-in-rooting-for-failure/

    elissa (f45420)

  222. Icy, the deadline for enrollment was March 31st. The problem is that insurance companies begin policies on the first of a calendar month. So to be enrolled in insurance on March 31, you had to apply before March 1st with enough time for the insurance company to complete and approve your application.

    SPQR (768505)

  223. As Michelle Malkin points out the Electronic Medical Records mandate is a disaster too.

    Let. It. Burn.

    SPQR (768505)

  224. Icy, the deadline for enrollment was March 31st.

    — Yeah, I know. The only new thing they’ve done is extend the deadline for avoiding the penalty to the end of the enrollment period itself.

    Icy (88972a)

  225. You pron website delivers high def video to 33 million visitors every day.

    For free.

    I so love that line.

    SPQR (768505)

  226. The White House is going to delay the deadline for enrollment to avoid the fine; instead of February 15th, the deadline will now be March 31st.

    When was the roll call vote?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  227. “If Congress does not act, then I will.”

    Icy (88972a)

  228. #207

    The older Lada Niva were rugged, tough, inexpensive vehicles. You still see the old ones around Nicaragua.
    Reminds me of that article about where Land Rovers go to die in Malaysia.
    Which is my fate with retirement under obamacare:
    flip a coin… Malaysian doctors or Nicaraguan doctors? (don’t speak malaysian language and can’t read the writing… although the doctors speak english and definitely speak visa card)

    steveg (794291)

  229. “If Obama does not act, then I will.”

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  230. Ooops.

    “If Obama does not act, then I will.”

    Gen. James Matoon Scott (bf8ad7)

  231. How exactly do you form your opinions?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/23/2013 @ 12:49 pm

    “He sticks a feather up his azz, and calls it macaroni.”


    elissa – He did kill bin Laden.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/23/2013 @ 1:23 pm

    Mebbe spend a few decades in a Holiday Inn Express, he should. Raise his IQ to moron at least, it might!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  232. SPQR wins the thread.

    JD (e402ce)

  233. The older Lada Niva were rugged, tough, inexpensive vehicles. You still see the old ones around Nicaragua…

    Dude, I have a soft spot for the LADA. Just like I do for the SKS.

    I definitely don’t have a soft spot for the Soviet system of allocating them. Which is what we’re getting with Obamacare.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  234. I get the fact that the TU-95 has to have landing gear that looks that way cuz it’s going to have land in Siberia in winter on unimproved runways.

    Yeah. Got it. It’s a rugged aircraft.

    I totally get why Tupolev’s bomber turned out that way.

    What I don’t get is why Tupolev is now designing my health care syste.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  235. *system*

    Steve57 (022c57)

  236. Kevin M wrote:

    I will note that the California website works quite well, although some of the information is out of date (particularly on doctors / plans).

    How, I wonder, does a website that just started up on October oneth get to be out-of-date by October 24th?

    The bewildered Dana (3e4784)

  237. “President Obama told a group of school children that broccoli was his favorite food, and they believed him. Then he told them Obamacare would reduce the deficit and the kids all busted out laughing.” –Jay Leno

    Jay Leno (3e4784)

  238. Thirty-six Roman emperors, along with 27 members of their families, were deified; you could probably get a substantial number of Americans — including some atheists! — who would deify Barack Hussein Obama.

    ??? Obama has never said or implied he is God. All that Obama has ever done in this regard is imply, or let other imply, that he is Joshua. Not God. Not even Moses!

    (Martin Luther King was Moses – remember, he never reached the promised land.)

    But he didn’t do that very much. Just occasionally in front of nearly all black audiences who would cheer him, or his intriducer, on.

    More usually, he is next in greatness to Lincoln, Jefferson, Truman, FDR, Ford, Eisenhower, Carter – he’s never specified who might be the 4 or 5 presidents ahead of him, but just let people make up their own list.

    Sammy Finkelman (e9b54a)

  239. How, I wonder, does a website that just started up on October oneth get to be out-of-date by October 24th?

    Comment by The bewildered Dana (3e4784) — 10/24/2013 @ 6:21 am

    HAH! My first belly laugh of the day.

    felipe (6100bc)

  240. Comment by The bewildered Dana (3e4784) — 10/24/2013 @ 6:21 am

    How, I wonder, does a website that just started up on October oneth get to be out-of-date by October 24th?

    It was out of date already on October 1st. The information was out of date at the beginning.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  241. 180. Comment by The very serious Dana (af9ec3) — 10/23/2013 @ 3:53 pm

    He has raised a personality cult that would have been the envy of an Communist leader.

    JFK had a kind of a personality cult. Obama doesn’t. Nobody is comparing him to Lincoln.

    I have actually seen (supposedly) serious people say that his image should be added to Mt Rushmore.

    That happens now with the supporters of practically every president.

    And conservatives will always hate his guts, because of the damage he has done and continues to do to the United States.

    He could still feel that admitting failure is not going to help – so he’ll avoid it till the last minute.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  242. “JFK had a kind of a personality cult. Obama doesn’t. Nobody is comparing him to Lincoln.”

    Horse manure, Sammy. Google “Obama compared to Lincoln” and you will find scores of different people comparing Obama to Lincoln … including Obama.

    Sammy, why is it that you say whatever just bubbles up to the top of your head first?

    SPQR (2939bb)

  243. 243.Comment by The bewildered Dana (3e4784) — 10/24/2013 @ 6:21 am

    How, I wonder, does a website that just started up on October oneth get to be out-of-date by October 24th?

    It was out of date already on October 1st. The information was out of date at the beginning.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 10/24/2013 @ 8:58 am

    And this is better, how? And you know this, how?

    felipe (6100bc)

  244. SPQR – ANY thought that Sammy can conceive becomes plausible.

    JD (5aa30b)

  245. The amount of sense in SF’s comments is inversely proportional to the scrutiny it receives.

    felipe (6100bc)

  246. the Dana: How, I wonder, does a website that just started up on October oneth get to be out-of-date by October 24th?

    SF: It was out of date already on October 1st.

    The information was out of date at the beginning.

    Comment by felipe (6100bc) — 10/24/2013 @ 9:41 am

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 10/24/2013 @ 8:58 am

    And this is better, how?

    No, it’s not better, it’s worse. But his statement is better if changed that way.

    And you know this, how?

    This was information particularly about doctors/ plans)

    It’s unlikely that was changed after October 1, and any changes would have been in the direction of accuracy. It probably belongs to current plans, and was never correct for what will be available after January 1.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  247. How, I wonder, does a website that just started up on October oneth get to be out-of-date by October 24th?

    Especially since some of the missing info (e.g. UC system joins Blue Cross plan) was known to the press in September.

    The site works well, though and it only cost a billion federal dollars. The difference between honest graft and dishonest graft.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  248. 227. Comment by Icy (88972a) — 10/23/2013 @ 8:30 pm

    – Yeah, I know. The only new thing they’ve done is extend the deadline for avoiding the penalty to the end of the enrollment period itself.

    The grounds for avoiding the penalty is no more than 3 consecutive months of no insurance. (after the effective date of the individual mandate, January 1, 2014.)

    Policies started on the first of the month and approximately two weeks were needed for processing, which gave you a deadline for avoiding the penalty of approximately February 15, because later than that and the insurance started on April 1, 2014, and that could leave you 3 consective months in calendar year 2014 without insurance.

    What did they do now that’s different?

    The deadline for enrollment – the ability to enroll in 2014 – was always March 31. But you couldn’t have your insurance start before April 1, if you signed up after about February 15, 2014.

    http://www.nytimes.com/news/affordable-care-act/2013/10/23/white-house-to-tweak-tax-penalty-deadline/?_r=0

    Apparently, they didn’t do anything yet. They’re working on it.

    The administration said it was working on a policy to match up the deadlines. In effect, the administration is extending the February deadline by six weeks so that it coincides with the end of the enrollment period.

    “The administration is working to align those policies and will issue guidance soon,” an administration official said Wednesday. “This guidance will ensure that if you sign up for insurance by the end of March, you will not face a penalty.”

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  249. BTW, Sammy is right. The UC info linked above is still not on the site a month later.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  250. 205. I heard that joke before.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  251. 192. SF: “The problem with the website, which is what we’re talking about, hasn’t gone on for very long.”

    Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/23/2013 @ 5:43 pm

    No, we weren’t talking just about the website, Sammy. We were talking about Obama.

    Hence the title of this thread.

    Claim: Obama Didn’t Know ObamaCare Web Site Sucked

    That’s Obama not knowing how bad the website was.

    So we’re discussing a certain leadership style. Or lack thereof. M’kay?

    OK. But with refeernce to the website. That’s of course far from the only thing wrong about Obamacare.

    SF: “While it’s true the website has been worked on for almost two years, there was nothing to draw attention to it. It only became a problem when it was brought online.”

    WTFO? There was plenty to draw attention to it. Obama kept pushing back deadlines until after the 2012 election precisely because they didn’t want the public to know what he was planning to do them if reelected.

    That’s not a problem with the website.

    Now they were changing things about the website too. The website was up by the way, but the exchange wasn’t.

    They decided to remove the browsing feature about one month before the exchange went live. Some people apparently told them not to do it, but the people at the top wanted it out because they were so afraid people wouldn’t buy their insurance, that they wanted to hide the list price, if somebody got a discount/tax rebate/subsidy.

    Now that made the website work harder, as everybody would have to register to see the prices.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  252. They’ve now put in a browsing feature at healthcare.gov, but it gives most people lower prices than they would get, because the price for the below 50 age bracket is that for a 27-year old and the price for the 50-64 age bracket is for a 50 year old.

    Let’s say you select Bergen County, New Jersey.

    You can get here:

    https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#4/&aud=indv&type=med&state=NJ&county=Bergen They’ve now got it like this:

    How old are you?

    49 or under

    50 or older

    Premium amounts in this tool are based on specific ages.
    Please make a selection

    They are still not saying the “specific ages” (this will be unclear to most people) are 27 and 50 and for people at the upper end of those two age brackets actual prices may be 50% or more higher. The lis price charged to a 64 ear old may be up to 3 times that charged to a 21 year old. Note: Not in new York State where all ages get charged the same price, but New York runs it sown exchange

    In the meantime, the website tells people when tghey look for an estimate that the price they may get may be lower because they could be eligible for a subsidy.

    https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/

    IMPORTANT NOTE: The prices shown on this tool don’t reflect the lower costs you may qualify for based on household size and income.

    Most people who apply will pay lower monthly premiums than those shown here. Households with yearly incomes up to about $46,000 for individuals or $94,000 for a family of 4 will qualify for lower costs. You’ll get final quotes for specific plans based on your income and household after you complete a Marketplace application.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  253. 192. It’s still going on. Sebelius has been illegally subsidizing the Medicare Advantage program out of a pot of federal money not intended for the purpose because it doesn’t run out until the end of 2014. Which will hide from seniors the effects of Obama’s cuts until after the midterms.

    Yes, yes, yes. But that has nothing to do with knowinbg how well the website worked.

    What the, umm, heck do you mean there was nothing to call attention to it?

    Have you been in a coma, Sammy? Taken a baseball bat to the head?

    Nothing to alert anyone that the exchanges on the website would not be usable.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  254. Nothing to alert anyone that the exchanges on the website would not be usable.

    Except all the people telling them exactly that.

    JD (5aa30b)

  255. 190. Comment by Dustin (2719aa) — 10/23/2013 @ 5:36 pm

    It’s like any of us telling our boss we never checked to see if our work was magically getting done. What is the president presiding over, anyway?

    It’s like the boss never realizing that something he thinks is rather routine and simple, that all sorts of businesses do, like getting an 800 number with options, isn’t actually going to work right, and he concentrates on drumming up call volume..

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  256. 157. Comment by luagha (5cbe06) — 10/23/2013 @ 2:39 pm

    They had the wrong goals – they wanted a pretty site and they wanted to reap all your personal information so they would own you before they sent you to the actual information you wanted. And even at that they didn’t succeed.

    That’s a large part of the reason they didn’t succeed! Requiring registration and checking information against other government databases before letting anybody browse created logjams and timing out problems.

    Making it all a one-step process because they were afraid people, if given too many chances, would decide not get an insurance policy, also made it harder to write somethuing that worked.

    I think they also didn’t want people to check what was the effect of changing any of their information.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  257. “Requiring registration and checking information against other government databases before letting anybody browse created logjams and timing out problems.”

    Sammy – Who is claiming they were checking information against other databases. You keep making this claim. Can you provide any support for it?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  258. Sammy – Going forward various government databases need to interface which will cause issues, but the IRS cannot verify 2014 income or even 2013 income at this point. That is why I am asking what information do you believe is being checked against other databases that is critical to allowing consumers to browse prices and apply for a policy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  259. It’s like the boss never realizing that something he thinks is rather routine and simple, that all sorts of businesses do, like getting an 800 number with options, isn’t actually going to work right, and he concentrates on drumming up call volume..

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 10/24/2013

    Maybe it’s like that, but Obama had years to inquire about the website. The Website essentially is Obamacare. At some point he should have had an update about it.

    Furthermore, it’s clear the administration was quite involved with what went wrong because they contracted with an insider firm they could trust and delayed much of the site design so information would be kept from the voters in the last election.

    But hey, I’m just glad they are pointing fingers so we are past the point where it’s debatable whether this is a disaster.

    Dustin (303dca)

  260. Sammy, the “boss” thinking that things he does not understand are easy is such an old management failure that Scott Adams’ does cartoons about it.

    SPQR (768505)

  261. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/24/2013 @ 12:51 pm

    Sammy, the “boss” thinking that things he does not understand are easy is such an old management failure that Scott Adams’ does cartoons about it.

    He certainly is making every mistake in the book when it comes to dealing with a disaster.

    It wouldn’t be so much that it was easy, as that it probably seemed to him that a website never failed – because, after all, people know how to do this.

    He called in people – now – after three weeks – to try to fix this thing, (we’re talking only about the website, not the “business plan”) but he didn’t do it before the scheduled start date.

    They never realized, or nobody on top did, that they were running badly behind schedule, and that somebody should be brought in.

    Perhaps they realized that this or that would be hard to get ready, but, if so, they always dropped things at the last minute.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  262. There was apparently an argument about dropping the browsing feature.

    Somebody didn’t understand that dropping it would overload the website because then if they wanted to do anything at all besides reading some pages, everybody would have to go through the registration process, and the income verification process check with IRS, check with Medicaid, check with veterans, maybe even see if the information is consistent with a credit report, and kick people to a person on the telephone if there seemed to be a problem – those things would have to be completed before anybody could look at prices.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  263. Sammy, I’m sure that they were often told that they were behind schedule.

    SPQR (768505)

  264. And I’m sure, Sammy, that someone pointed out the load problem with their decision to drop the anonymous browsing feature.

    Political decisions overwrote reality. Which is typical of Obama administration.

    SPQR (768505)

  265. Senator Ted Cruz spent about 24 hours talking and never said, as far as I know: Not even the website is going to work.

    Before this happened I don’t think Senator Ted Cruz and other Republicans too ever dreamed of this debacle.

    Nobody warned of this.

    All right, the Obama Administration was keeping problems with the website secret, but even taking that into consideration – without inside information nobody thought this was a possibility.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  266. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/24/2013 @ 12:33 pm

    Going forward various government databases need to interface which will cause issues, but the IRS cannot verify 2014 income or even 2013 income at this point.

    What they probably can do is check the 2012 tax return, any estimated tax returns, and current withholding.

    You’re right – the information will be out of date. The income that’s being verified is out of date.

    I was wondering when people would notice. The media barely has noticed this.

    That is why I am asking what information do you believe is being checked against other databases that is critical to allowing consumers to browse prices and apply for a policy.

    They are checking against the last reported income here and there and Medicare and Medicaid and veteran’s status and so on.

    No big problem in Washington where they are used to thinking in terms of static analysis.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  267. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/24/2013 @ 2:43 pm

    And I’m sure, Sammy, that someone pointed out the load problem with their decision to drop the anonymous browsing feature.

    Probably somebody did, but they also didn’t say it absolutely couldn’t be done. And maybe there was a technical dissenter or two.

    Political decisions overwrote reality.

    That’s right.

    Which is typical of Obama administration.

    More typically, maybe here too, they make a compromise with reality. They give a little.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  268. 260. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/24/2013 @ 11:57 am

    Who is claiming they were checking information against other databases. You keep making this claim. Can you provide any support for it?

    I’ll look but that’s what the verification process is. They can’t check that the information is accurate – they can only check that it is consistent with other information the government has, or can get.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  269. 255. …WTFO? There was plenty to draw attention to it. Obama kept pushing back deadlines until after the 2012 election precisely because they didn’t want the public to know what he was planning to do them if reelected.

    That’s not a problem with the website.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa) — 10/24/2013 @ 11:10 am

    What’s going to be exchanged on the exchanges isn’t a problem with the exchanges?!?!

    We’re well past the point where you need to admit you’re just making this s*** up and you don’t know what you’re talking about, Sammy.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  270. Sammy, critics of Obamacare have stated very clearly that the legislation has huge unintended consequences and backwards incentives. Part of the real disaster is that the website collapse makes many of those unintended consequences/bad incentives worse.

    Specifically, the adverse selection problem that will result in exchange insurance pools more heavily salted with high cost, preexisting condition members.

    Obamacare is well down the road to utter collapse. And we are talking collapse in a matter of months – a couple dozen tops.

    SPQR (768505)

  271. They can probably check income against what is reported to Social Security – I don’t know if that’s part of the design. This would only get wages, salaries and tips on which Social security taxes had been paid.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  272. Sammy, did you miss where the administration announced before Oct 1 that the exchanges could not verify income?

    SPQR (768505)

  273. …I don’t know if that’s part of the design….

    Then can you quit already with your pronouncements about what’s not a problem with the website.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  274. “I’ll look but that’s what the verification process is. They can’t check that the information is accurate – they can only check that it is consistent with other information the government has, or can get.”

    Sammy – Again, if the information is not relevant to an application for coverage in 2014, why should it need to be verified in some database outside HHS? It makes no sense.

    Find out who is making these claims.

    Think through whether they make any sense instead of just “repeating what you read” or pulling something out of your butt.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  275. @WI_Libertarian

    Obamacare Exchange Has More Lines of Code Than Apple’s OSX, Windows XP, Facebook, Linux, And Google Chrome Combined…

    That’s mind boggling. I’ve worked on more than one of the listed projects, and not one of them was tested in weeks.

    SPQR (768505)

  276. Obamacare Exchange Has More Lines of Code Than Apple’s OSX, Windows XP, Facebook, Linux, And Google Chrome Combined……

    The law it’s supposed to implement is now with regs eight times the size of the Bible.

    Make that work, Mr. Wizard.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  277. Senator Reid (D-NV): “If you’re over 50 the internet is something that you’re just learning about”

    Hey, moron, some of us over 50 types … well, we built it.

    SPQR (768505)

  278. SPQR, apparently Reid believes the intertubes wuz built by 10 year olds back in the nineties.

    I take it math is not his strong point.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  279. Do narcissists commit suicide?

    mg (31009b)

  280. Remember: part of the President’s oh-so-wise health care plan is the requirement that all of our medical records be converted into electronic form. This is (supposedly) to allow physicians to check on your medical history if you have switched doctors or other providers, and these records would be available, over the internet, with the appropriate safeguards, to insure that only authorized providers could access them.

    So, you will have your medical records safeguarded by the same people who couldn’t get the Obumblecare website right even having three years to work on it.

    What could go wrong?

    The conspiracy theorist Dana (af9ec3)

  281. Don’t worry, conspiracy theorist Dana. We’re going to have our medical records guarded by highly vetted contractors and bureaucrats like Lois Lerner, Eric Snowden, and Chelsea Bradley.

    All will be well!

    Steve57 (022c57)

  282. 284. Comment by The conspiracy theorist Dana (af9ec3) — 10/24/2013 @ 3:32 pm

    Remember: part of the President’s oh-so-wise health care plan is the requirement that all of our medical records be converted into electronic form. This is (supposedly) to allow physicians to check on your medical history if you have switched doctors or other providers,

    This is actually bad, because it would preserve a wrong diagnosis, or bad tests.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  283. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/24/2013 @ 3:09 pm

    Sammy – Again, if the information is not relevant to an application for coverage in 2014, why should it need to be verified in some database outside HHS? It makes no sense.

    They are using static analysis. They always use static analysis in Washington.

    It would look at the 2012 tax returns and withholding information. This would estimate income.

    Of course what counts in the end for the subsidy is only what is on the 2014 tax return filed in 2015.

    That’s what I’ve understood for a months or two at least.

    This is another problem with the law.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  284. Top people will be working on this….
    TOP PEOPLE!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  285. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/24/2013 @ 2:57 pm

    Sammy, did you miss where the administration announced before Oct 1 that the exchanges could not verify income?

    No, I didn’t miss it, but that seems not to be the case any more.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  286. The CBS Evening News had a lot of good stories tonight. It seems worked on the website stopped abruptly around August 2012 until after the election. They had 109 before. No more new regs were issued until the end of November..

    CGI went ahead and had to throw out 1/3 of its work because they guessed wrong.

    CBS put the lie to Obama’s frequently asserted claim that you could keep your policy. Not so for hundreds of thousands of people who buy policies individually. Kaiser P cancelled 160,000 policies in California alone. One woman featured in the segment had an old policy that cost $199 a month and had a $1,500 deductible – the closest new plan she could find cost $278 a month and had a $6,500 deductible – and only paid 70% of the cost. (Sounds like one of the silver plans designed for the exchange)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  287. askeptic #289 – sadly, the current Administration’s definition of “TOP PEOPLE” is people who spin the way the Administration wants them to …

    Alastor (e7cb73)

  288. Also a story about Benghazi. British guard trainer (trained Libyan guards) who will use the alias “Moragn Jones: will be on 60 Minutes on Sunday – was interviewed by Lara Logan. The Libyan guards
    had no weapons but they did raise the alarm. And were scared. They were pistol whipped and hit with rifle but told they came to kill Americans. He was on the telephone – got also on the telephone with an American in the mission. Told people were all over the compound which astounded him.

    and went over there too.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  289. Will 60-Minutes interview the protester who interrupted Hillary’s speech with the accusation “You let them die!”?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  290. 290. Top people will be working on this….
    TOP PEOPLE!

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 10/24/2013 @ 4:30 pm

    Top Gun anthem.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCTJmXrgsFg

    Back when America was great.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  291. “They are using static analysis. They always use static analysis in Washington.

    It would look at the 2012 tax returns and withholding information. This would estimate income.”

    Sammy – At some point you just need to admit you are making it up as you go along once again.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  292. 47.Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 10/23/2013 @ 10:42 am

    What part of this example do you not understand SF?

    What it seems to be saying is that magnetic fields are a form of anti-gravity.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  293. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/24/2013 @ 2:54 pm

    What’s going to be exchanged on the exchanges isn’t a problem with the exchanges?!?!

    No, it’s not. Those kinds of things are just minor details as far as the workings of the exchange are concerned.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  294. ** facepalm **

    SPQR (768505)

  295. double facepalm.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  296. Sammy – At some point you just need to admit you are making it up as you go along once again.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/24/2013 @ 5:43 pm

    Would much prefer what is mentioned here, I would;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  297. SF: “it would look at the 2012 tax returns and withholding information. This would estimate income.”

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/24/2013 @ 5:43 pm

    Sammy – At some point you just need to admit you are making it up as you go along once again.

    Interpolating. It’s got to be the 2012 tax returns for now. I did read about tax returns and withholding.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  298. CBS News also reported tonight that when the website was tested shortly before it was scheduled to go live, it crashed with only 200 users.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  299. 297. Gong!!!

    No one is interested in anything you say, except the negligible, vanishingly small chance you will learn from their rebuttal.

    Your theories are even more unlikely than your WAG. Your facts invented from whole cloth.

    MmmMmMmMmmmm.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  300. Blog post that goes into whether and how much Barack Obama or Kathleen Sebelius knew: (the Thermocline of truth)

    http://andstillipersist.com/2013/10/obamacare-it-and-magic-thinking/

    A very common pattern in a IT project such as the Healthcare.gov website is that those in the trenches know how bad things are, but those at the top don’t — or don’t want to know, leading to a phenomenon I noticed many years ago and named “the thermocline of truth“. What usually happens is that the ‘truth layer’ moves up the ranks as the scheduled deadline approaches, and the whole project is suddenly delayed just weeks or even days before going live.

    Sometimes, however, the folks at the top insist that the system go live, even though everyone below them knows the system is not ready for prime time (or ready for late night or even ready for the wee small hours of the morning). They have this wishful belief that any “kinks” or “glitches” can be worked out after the system has launched, possibly by taking it off-line from time to time late at night or over weekends. They also believe that the vital importance of this system means that it just must somehow work, and that their sincerity and good intentions will overcome any technical issues…..

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  301. It looks like the Obamacare call center operator fired for talking to Sean Hannity will get her salary covered by Hannity and he’s promised to work on finding her a job.

    SPQR (768505)

  302. The esteemed Mr Finkelman wrote:

    Remember: part of the President’s oh-so-wise health care plan is the requirement that all of our medical records be converted into electronic form. This is (supposedly) to allow physicians to check on your medical history if you have switched doctors or other providers,

    This is actually bad, because it would preserve a wrong diagnosis, or bad tests.

    A bad diagnosis can be overcome; this isn’t where I see the problems.

    The regulations put in place by HHS to conform to the Health Information Technology for Economic and Clinical Health Act (HITECH Act) include a mandatory calculation function for a patient’s body mass index. Normally, you get weighed every time you go to the doctor’s office, and the physician can tell, just by looking at you, whether you are fat or not. What need is there for a mandatory BMI number, except to make the records more easily computer searchable for BMI?

    In the era of Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning and hundreds of other hackers, I’ve rather little confidence that the government will be able to create a security system that can’t be hacked. Sent out your résumé for that great job? Don’t think that some companies won’t have “consultants” who will report back concerning your BMI or your cardiac health, any past drug treatments, psychological counseling or anything other problems they’d rather let other employers handle.

    The Dana who remembers just how well our data are protected (3e4784)

  303. Exactly right, Dana. Got my BMI on the printout from my last checkup.

    To five places of “accuracy”. Was weighed with my full clothes, phone, pens, two knives, wallet, pocketful of change and keys. I had left the gun in the car this time – although it made for a fun conversation with the nurse last visit (She’s not a fan of Glocks …)

    SPQR (768505)

  304. You got it, Senatus! My last visit to my GI had my BMI right there, in big, bold lettering. Of course, I was wearing my size 12 work boots when they weighed me. Now, my physician — and his absolutely babelicious physician’s assistant! — know whether I’m overweight just by looking.

    And while you left your weapon in the car, I’m sure that you’ve heard the stories about physicians being encouraged to ask about whether there are any firearms in the house; unless someone happens to be allergic to gunpowder, I can’t see how that’s a health related question. Is that answer going to go on your Permanent record, too?

    And for the record, if I am ever asked that question by my physician, my answer will be “none of your fornicating business.”

    The svelte (?) Dana (3e4784)

  305. Svelte Dana, well, my doctor isn’t much into guns. But the nurse and I had a long talk, and I think she’s considering the options I suggested to her to replace her Glock.

    SPQR (768505)

  306. Mr Finkelman @ 305: The notion that “the thermocline of truth” somehow excuses or mitigates or even just explains either the responsibility or the blame borne by President Obama and Secretary Sebelius strikes me as an attempt to sweep the responsibility under the rug. Barack Hussein Obama told us, twice, that he was absotively, posilutely the right man for the job of leading our country; it’s his job and his responsibility to see that this kind of stuff gets done, and blaming it on lower-level people (in Cincinnati?) for painting too rosy a picture is the mark of inept “leadership” and overall incompetence. It’s the kind of thing that, in the business world, leads to negative career consequences.

    Barack Hussein Obama and the Democrats took a system which worked extremely well for the 85% of Americans who took the responsibility to pay for their health care coverage, and totally fornicated it up in an effort to extend coverage to the 15% who were too worthless or unproductive or stupid to get health insurance.

    Mr Obama said that he wanted to “fundamentally transform” America? Well, he sure did that! He took a great country and flushed it down the toilet.

    The angry Dana (3e4784)

  307. The angry Dana, how can there even be a thermocline of truth when Obama is the smartest guy in the room?

    SPQR (768505)

  308. More Senators are calling for delays in the individual mandate – which really can’t be done given the way insurance and Obamacare regulations work.

    Obamcare is collapsing. Bipartisan calls for repeal in 10 … 9 … 8 …

    SPQR (768505)

  309. Aside, I was listening to Medved last night as he played Obama’s pleading OFA audio. In which Obama speaking of his website fail claimed that nobody said this was going to be easy, “change never is.”

    Yeah, somebody claimed this was going to be easy. Effin’ Obama.

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/national-world/obama-health-care-as-easy-as-online-shopping/article_874eeb24-b648-5fef-b327-901822adc95d.html

    In anticipation of Sammy attempting to ‘splain things for his BFF:

    http://www.justsaypictures.com/images/worf-facepalm.jpg

    Steve57 (022c57)

  310. 306. And rather obviously, Orenstein is as truckling an obsequious lackey as they is.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  311. 315. More Senators are calling for delays in the individual mandate – which really can’t be done given the way insurance and Obamacare regulations work

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/25/2013 @ 6:48 am

    Yes, that’s the heart of it. Get rid of the mandate and the whole thing collapses. The edifice depends upon young healthy people being forced to subsidize the health care of others.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  312. Joe Barton was on Fox this morning explaining how the Republicans will not be delaying Obamacare but simply will be delaying the penalty. This is an important distinction because Obama will make this all about him and claim he is giving everyone a break by waving the penalty but Republicans are tring to get rid of people’s insurance. He’s clearly a liar, but the American people find him likable. It will be interesting to see how this polls out.

    Still, Obama needs people to sign up to balance the costs. If Obamacare runs large deficits the first year, I wonder if people will be even more against it. I mean, the Ponzi scheme that is social security has worked out so well, so I’m sure Obamacare will too, right?

    Ratbeach (f5aad4)

  313. 319. …He’s clearly a liar, but the American people find him likable.

    Unlikable liars don’t get elected.

    If Obamacare runs large deficits the first year, I wonder if people will be even more against it. I mean, the Ponzi scheme that is social security has worked out so well, so I’m sure Obamacare will too, right?

    Comment by Ratbeach (f5aad4) — 10/25/2013 @ 7:33 am

    Social Security works because for the people paying into it, the payoff is years away. Obamacare don’t work that way. You’re paying into it NOW, expecting to benefit NOW.

    If you can force someone to wait until they turn 65 to learn you’ve ripped them off you just might get away with it. It doesn’t work that way when you just turned a two month wait to see a specialist into a 15 month wait in the present.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  314. Ratbeach wrote:

    Still, Obama needs people to sign up to balance the costs. If Obamacare runs large deficits the first year, I wonder if people will be even more against it.

    But that’s just it: the law envisions people signing up with private insurers, and any “deficit” will fall on the insurance companies. They will then have to raise their premiums for the following years to make up losses.

    As for the government, the more people who don’t sign up for private insurance, and wind up paying the penalty tax to the government means more revenue to the government.

    The actuarial Dana (3e4784)

  315. Not meaning to think I told you something you didn’t already know, Ratbeach.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  316. Comment by The actuarial Dana (3e4784) — 10/25/2013 @ 7:45 am

    and wind up paying the penalty tax to the government means more revenue to the government.

    But Congress wrote the law so that the tax, in many cases, wouldn’t actually be collected.

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/10/24/opt_out_obamacare_penalty_can_t_be_enforced_unless_you_get_a_tax_refund

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  317. 313. Comment by The angry Dana (3e4784) — 10/25/2013 @ 5:32 am

    Mr. Finkelman @ 305 (actually 306 by me) :

    The notion that “the thermocline of truth” somehow excuses or mitigates or even just explains either the responsibility or the blame borne by President Obama and Secretary Sebelius strikes me as an attempt to sweep the responsibility under the rug.

    I don’t say it excuses it, but the thermocline of truth definitely explains a great deal of it.

    Now I will also say, that this is a form of incompetence, and the greater the thermocline of truth, the greater the incompetence present in the organization.

    I don’t disaagree with you that a president should be more competent.

    My own feeling is, it’s pretty hard to get competence. Ronald Reagan let the savings and loan scandal take place under his watch, and he
    ran the kind of a White House so that Ed Gray never sought a meeting with him because somehow he was convinced that Don Regan was his enemy.

    And he let the Beirut bombing 30 years ago take place (they knew of security problems, and created a plan to take care of it, which had a long lead time, that the suicide bomber was able to strike the Marine barracks)

    I don’t know if there’s been one president who’s really been competent. (Try naming one. Someone who can spot mistakes. Truman? Reagan?)

    But some are worse than others..

    And there may have been special incompetence here, compounded by dishonesty.

    You’ll notice in the blog post the high grade of incompetence exhibited by Barack Obama and company is detailed:

    Sometimes, however, the folks at the top insist that the system go live, even though everyone below them knows the system is not ready for prime time…They have this wishful belief that any “kinks” or “glitches” can be worked out after the system has launched…They also believe that the vital importance of this system means that it just must somehow work…

    The words “glitches” and “kinks” are direct quotes from Obama. (Obama first used the word glitches, then switched to kinks)

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  318. Re: the income verification being only an estimate: (and therefore it making perfect sense to rely on 2012 tax returns and income reported when withholding)

    Federal Register /Vol. 77, No. 100 /Wednesday, May 23, 2012 /Rules and Regulations 30377 30378

    Health Insurance Premium Tax Credit

    AGENCY: Internal Revenue Service (IRS),
    Treasury.

    ACTION: Final regulations.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-05-23/pdf/2012-12421.pdf

    2. Eligibility for the Premium Tax Credit

    a. Applicable Taxpayer

    Under section 36B(c)(1) and the proposed regulations, in general a taxpayer is an applicable taxpayer for a taxable year only if the taxpayer’s household income for the taxable year is at least 100 percent but not more than 400 percent of the FPL for the taxpayer’s family size. Commentators requested that the final regulations treat a taxpayer whose household income exceeds 400 percent of the FPL for the taxpayer’s family size as an applicable taxpayer if, at enrollment, the Exchange estimates that the taxpayer’s household income will be between 100 and 400 percent of the FPL for the taxpayer’s family size and approves advance credit payments.

    Other commentators advocated allowing taxpayers with household income above 400 percent of the FPL for their family size to be treated as eligible for a premium tax credit for the months
    before a change in circumstances affecting household income occurs or for the months for which the taxpayer receives advance payments.

    [i.e if someone gets a higher paying job early or in the middle in the year, and as a result their income on their 2014 tax returns turns out to be greater than estimated, they shouldn’t have to refund the too high, or unentitled to, discount they got]

    The final regulations do not adopt these comments because they are contrary to the language of section 36B limiting the premium tax credit to taxpayers with household income for the taxable year at or below 400 ercent of the FPL for the taxpayer’s family size.

    Do you understand what this means??

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  319. “Re: the income verification being only an estimate: (and therefore it making perfect sense to rely on 2012 tax returns and income reported when withholding)”

    Sammy – Did you find the regulation where it says that is what they are doing?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  320. Sammy, note that the IRS regulations are going to control the actual tax return filed by the tax payer. Keep straight in your head (ooooo, I’m going to regret that …) the difference between applying for a subsidy and subsequent tax return for a given year. One’s prospective and the other retrospective.

    SPQR (2939bb)

  321. If I would normally owe the Infernal Revenue Service $100 after filing my Form 1040, and had an Obaminablecare penalty of $285, the check that I would have to write would be $385. If I wrote that check for just $100, the IRS would hold that I still owed that $285, and it would continue as an amount owed for the next tax year — with interest and penalties — until it was paid or until I got carted off to Danbury for not paying my taxes. The feds get their money even when there’s no refund from which they can deduct it.

    Absolutely the last thing that the government wants to do is create a system in which people avoid refunds to avoid the Obaminablecare tax: anyone who gets a refund has, in effect, given the government an interest-free loan, and the government uses that. A situation in which everybody owed the government a small amount when they filed their income taxes would be chaos.

    The taxpayer Dana (3e4784)

  322. So, what happens if someone is deemed eligible for a subsidy, based on a previous year’s income, and it turns out that no, he wasn’t eligible for the subsidy — which he’s already spent! — for the year once he does his taxes?

    The taxpayer Dana (3e4784)

  323. “Sammy, note that the IRS regulations are going to control the actual tax return filed by the tax payer.”

    SPQR and TTD – Exactly. They will true up based upon actual amounts of income reported and additional subsidies will be owed the taxpayer or the taxpayer will be required to repay the government subsidies previously credited to their account.

    No magic here.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  324. Comment by The taxpayer Dana (3e4784) — 10/25/2013 @ 9:10 am

    So, what happens if someone is deemed eligible for a subsidy, based on a previous year’s income, and it turns out that no, he wasn’t eligible for the subsidy — which he’s already spent! — for the year once he does his taxes?

    His federal income tax refund, if any, will be applied to the amount owed, and if insufficient, carried over till next year.

    People will discover this only in the spring of 2015. As Rush Limbaugh said, over the course of a few years, more and more people will reduce their withholding, so as to owe money and not get a refund. Anybody can do this by making a few changes to a W-4 form. You can ask for X numbers of dollars more or less to be withheld. Congress is unlikely to change any of this, even if it gets to be a big problem.

    They will also contribute to a traditional IRA when tax time comes, in some cases to prevent being required to file estimated taxes.

    There are no consequences for underwithholding if the total amount of tax owed when you file your return is less than $1,000, or you withheld at least 90% of the tax owed, or at least the total amount of tax owed the previous tax year. But a lot of people will exceed this. Then they will be supposed to file and pay estimated taxes four times a year. The IRS will be deluged with estimated tax returns it doesn’t need.

    Also, starting in the spring of 2016, many people will discover they can’t pay the tax due – not the tax plus any penalty or carryover – but the tax itself.

    People will also work off the books.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  325. 328. Comment by The taxpayer Dana (3e4784) — 10/25/2013 @ 9:08 am

    If I wrote that check for just $100, the IRS would hold that I still owed that $285, and it would continue as an amount owed for the next tax year — with interest and penalties

    Not sure about the interest and penalties.

    — until it was paid or until I got carted off to Danbury for not paying my taxes.

    No, you won’t be carted off to Danbury, nor will you be sued nor will your wages be garnished. The Congressmen who wrote The PPACA weren’t completely stupid.

    The feds get their money even when there’s no refund from which they can deduct it.

    Not true, any more than they collect delinquent student loans.

    Absolutely the last thing that the government wants to do is create a system in which people avoid refunds to avoid the Obaminablecare tax:

    That’s exactly what they did.

    anyone who gets a refund has, in effect, given the government an interest-free loan, and the government uses that. A situation in which everybody owed the government a small amount when they filed their income taxes would be chaos.

    This is what Obamacare will do.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  326. “They will also contribute to a traditional IRA when tax time comes, in some cases to prevent being required to file estimated taxes.”

    Sammy – I don’t understand the link between traditional IRAs and the requirement to file estimated taxes. I understand contributing to a traditional IRA can reduce your reported taxable income and thereby a potential underpayment of taxes for the prior year. It will not do anything with respect to filing estimated taxes for the current tax year which is based on an estimate of the taxpayer’s income and withholding for the year. A taxpayer can adjust their withholding if they anticipate falling short of IRS Safe Harbor rules and avoid paying estimated taxes.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  327. There will be a very strong push in Congress to waive any penalty or subsidy return.

    That’s why the Republicans wanted stronger income verification at the beginning, because it is highly likely the payback is going to be waived.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  328. “They will also contribute to a traditional IRA when tax time comes, in some cases to prevent being required to file estimated taxes.”

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/25/2013 @ 9:59 am

    Sammy – I don’t understand the link between traditional IRAs and the requirement to file estimated taxes. I understand contributing to a traditional IRA can reduce your reported taxable income and thereby a potential underpayment of taxes for the prior year. It will not do anything with respect to filing estimated taxes for the current tax year which is based on an estimate of the taxpayer’s income and withholding for the year.

    You might avoid ever getting in paying estimated taxes. I am talking about people whose primary income comes from a source where there is withholding. You don’t have to pay estimated tax if you pay enough through withholding.

    A taxpayer can adjust their withholding if they anticipate falling short of IRS Safe Harbor rules and avoid paying estimated taxes.

    What I’m saying is, if they failed to do that, they still might be able to come under the safe harbor rules by contributing to an IRA before the next April 15. Some people will be in that position.

    Sammy Finkelman (4d9cfa)

  329. The svelte (?) Dana #310 – when your doctor asks you a question about your gun(s), might you channel your inner Mae West and respond “A gun ? Doctor, before you asked that question, I was happy to see you.” …

    Alastor (e7cb73)

  330. “What I’m saying is, if they failed to do that, they still might be able to come under the safe harbor rules by contributing to an IRA before the next April 15.”

    Sammy – The only problem is that is not what you said. You talked about people being required to file estimated taxes and linked it to contributions to an IRA. There is no requirement to file estimated taxes. The only reason to do so is to avoid an underpayment penalty. That is where you should have started.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  331. This WHITE HOUSE knew in March that the site sucked. Obama is a lying piece of garbage. Yet the media will kiss his ass no matter what! You all suck for not telling the truth.

    steve jackson (ac12ae)


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