Patterico's Pontifications

9/28/2013

Defunding Strategy Gives Way to Delay, for Better or for Worse

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:18 am

DRJ recently quoted Instapundit as follows:

BYRON YORK: GOP flinches at Obamacare plan devised by Sens. Ted Cruz, Mike Lee. I don’t think things are as disorganized as they seem. I see it this way: (1) Effort to defund — if it succeeds, it’s a win. If it doesn’t, it’s forced a lot of vulnerable Dems to vote in favor of ObamaCare just before it goes into effect: (2) ObamaCare goes into effect, producing a train wreck of increased premiums, implementation snafus; (3) In 2014, GOP can say if you want this repealed, you’ve got to give us both houses of Congress — and, in 2016, the White House.

Now that (as expected) the Democrat-controlled Senate has removed the defunding language from the continuing resolution to fund the government, it appears that the House is shifting to the preferred Establishment GOP strategy of delay. Ed Morrissey reports:

The House will send a continuing resolution to the Senate sometime today, but not the clean CR that the Senate sent to the House. Instead, Speaker John Boehner and the Republican caucus plan to approve a new stopgap funding measure that includes a one-year delay in the ObamaCare individual mandate, exchanges, and subsidies, as well as a repeal of an unpopular tax on medical devices:

If this is the best we can do, will it help us or hurt us?

This piece argues that delay is a “win/win” for Republicans:

If the exchanges did open but the individual mandate was postponed, experts say those likely to skip buying insurance are the young and the healthy – just the people most needed to broaden the risk pool and keep insurance rates low. Surging rates would antagonize the public. So would the absence of income-based subsidies. And if the exchanges did not open at all, after laying groundwork for big changes for the last three years, insurers and consumers would be left scrambling.

“You could think about an orderly transition back, but just stopping it would be chaotic,” says Gary Claxton, director of the Health Care Marketplace Project at the Kaiser Family Foundation. Among his questions: Would the companies have to resume underwriting, charge higher rates to sick people, and deny coverage to some? And with many high-risk pools gone in preparation for the big shift, where would those people get insurance? He also notes that if insurers lost money as a result of the sudden full stop, the federal government would be on the hook to make up much of the loss, as it was the case with the Medicare drug program.

From a political semantics standpoint, says Robert Blendon, a health policy expert at Harvard, “defunding sounds awful. It sounds like you’re taking money away from sick people.” A one-year delay seems more benign, he says, but “could have a very negative long-term effect on the viability of the law.” That makes defund and delay a win-win for Republicans, and a test of backbone for Democrats.

I am skeptical — yet admittedly torn. The above piece sets forth the potential advantages of a delay strategy. There is another advantage: every day without ObamaCare is another day of freedom, and another day in which we have staved off the fundamental restructuring of the government’s relationship to the individual that it represents.

I think, though, there are some serious potential disadvantages. Delay gives Democrats a way to blame the GOP for the inevitable catastrophe that ObamaCare represents. If we simply oppose ObamaCare, try to defund it entirely, and our efforts fail, then the responsibility for the inevitable disaster falls squarely on Obama and on Democratic Senators. If we delay, Obama can argue we have thrown off original plans, throwing everything out of kilter. Ironically, we would also probably be increasing the chance of successful implementation, as delay of any portion or all of it gives Democrats a year to iron out the current implementation snafus. That’s why even some Democrats have sought a delay, and Obama might be just fine with it. This way, we get the worst of both worlds: we take some form of responsibility for how it turns out, while increasing the chances that it will turn out to be less disastrous than expected.

And it may help keep the disaster of implementation from being a huge issue in 2014.

Reader Kevin M made this comment about the defunding effort, but I think it is perhaps more aptly describes the delay effort:

Obamacare cannot succeed. We know that. It will crash and burn by the middle of next year and take the Democrats with it. The ONLY thing that will save them is if they (and PRAVDA) can blame the Republicans for the failure.

And we’re putting our fingerprints all over the murder weapon.

That seems right to me. But I could be wrong.

The collective wisdom of my readership far exceeds my individual wisdom. I am interested in your thoughts.

402 Responses to “Defunding Strategy Gives Way to Delay, for Better or for Worse”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Sorry to come back with three posts in a row on a Saturday when fewer people are reading, but that’s the nature of the workweek.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  3. You mean all those conservatives who swore to god that defunding was the very last chance to stop obamacare were lying through their teeth?

    Say it isn’t so!

    Seriously, don’t you ever get tired of the conservative con artists playing you guys for suckers? Is it not supremely obvious by now that the entire stunt was simply a way to separate you from more of your money? There never was any chance of getting defunding through. Only a minority of the minority opposed cloture. What’s more all of this was known ahead of time. Most certainly cruz knew it. But he fed you a BS line and you clapped like seals.

    Don’t you ever get tired of letting them make you look like fools?

    Take for instance all the times they just lie to your faces. A recent example:
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sole-black-sen-tim-scott-invited-speak-dream-event-article-1.1440736

    variations on this story showed up everywhere in the righty news. Problem is not only was Scott invited but he’s not the sole black member of the senate. They didn’t even both to get that detail right, because they knew you’d swallow it unquestioningly.

    If you want to avoid nasty “surprises” like the 2012 election you need to either expand your information sources beyond the right fringe or you need to hold that fringe to some standards of accountability because right now they know, KNOW, for a fact that they can lie to your face and you’ll just accept it.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  4. Troll enthusiastically describes squirrel.

    SPQR (85824a)

  5. It think the efforts to define and delay are important but their failure will highlight Democrats as themselves “suicide bombers” destroying our economy in the name of their failed Obamacare. We’ll see bipartisan calls for repeal in months as the train wreck manifests.

    SPQR (85824a)

  6. Tlaloc wrote,
    ———-
    “…you need to hold that fringe to some standards of accountability because right now they know, KNOW, for a fact that they can lie to your face and you’ll just accept it.”
    ———–

    You mean like how Benghazi was ’caused’ by a YouTube video ? Or how if you like your doctor, you can keep him ? Or how there’s a bunch of shovel-ready jobs waiting to be funded ? Or how it was just a couple of low-level employees in Cincinnatti ? Or how Gitmo will be closed ? Or how “I didn’t draw a red line—the world did !! ? Or how Mitt Romney didn’t pay income taxes ? Or how Bill Ayers ‘was just a guy in the neighborhood’ ? Or how Trayvon Martin was an altar boy who never attacked George Zimmerman ?

    Thankfully, Tlaloc, you didn’t fall for any of the above examples of lies propagated by the media.

    Good Allah.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  7. ‘ardilla gigante’

    narciso (3fec35)

  8. The timing of the delay puts it just 1 month ahead of the 2014 Congressional elections. The country will have a full year of conversion to part time employment from full time, as well as time to gain exposure to the negatives.

    The impact on elections will be much greater with a delay to next year.

    Corky Boyd (8ab7c4)

  9. Its annoying how incompetent Tladoc is, he never can make a simple correct factual statement – because he is so ignorant of reality.

    SPQR (85824a)

  10. Exactly Corky, we already saw a lot of Democrats trying to ignore Obamacare in 2012 election cycle. They are positively going to panic in 2014.

    SPQR (85824a)

  11. SPQR, IMHO we won’t ever see bipartisan efforts to repeal Obamacare.

    What we’ll see is:

    1. Obamacare isn’t working.

    2. Because, Republicans exist.

    3. Bad Republican vibes halt Obamacare.

    4. Therefore Obamacare doesn’t need to be repealed but Republicans have to be.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  12. And, yes, I was going to repeat that, underlined, for the delay effort. Lose/lose.

    Few people ever change their minds about something because they are warned of the consequences. They need to break a few teeth on the pavement first.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  13. Obamacare would work if everyone was crazy.

    Therefore, everyone who is sane needs to be denounced.

    This message brought to you by Nancy Pelosi.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  14. ObamaCare doesn’t work.
    But Democrats like stuff that don’t work.
    After all, people who don’t work is the Democrats’ biggest constituency !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  15. 12. …Few people ever change their minds about something because they are warned of the consequences. They need to break a few teeth on the pavement first.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 9/28/2013 @ 11:56 am

    When they’re spending their own money they do. To channel Yoda, change, they will.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  16. #11. This is essentially how I see it. Every time the R’ oppose a plan that does not work, the blame will be place right on them. If R’s do not oppose any plan that fails, the failure will be placed on R’s failure to “fully” embrace said plan, or because of anything the R’s did on some other front.

    felipe (6100bc)

  17. Since we can’t defund ObamaCare now, I think delay is the next best option for practical reasons rather than political reasons.

    Reports say the White House has authorized 19 delays by executive order, and I’m worried that the Administration can easily reverse the orders and retroactively impose fines and fees that will burden unsuspecting taxpayers and businesses. In addition, the law requires dozens and dozens of other mandates, reports, filings, etc., that haven’t been delayed — requirements that even attorneys familiar with the law would probably have trouble complying with. Average people don’t have a chance, and the fees and penalties for noncompliance can be significant.

    The only way to protect the public from consequences like this is for Congress to delay the implementation of ObamaCare.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  18. Which is what Steve57 was saying, of course.

    felipe (6100bc)

  19. With establishment Republicans in the Senate unwilling to support a greenhorn upstart even if his position on ObamaCare is wildly popular with GOP voters and TEA Party types (Senators are much more concerned with opinions on K Street than on Main Street)this delay for pay gambit is exactly the right move at the right time.

    It shows the GOP is willing to negotiate, it rebuilds fractured unity by giving Republicans an issue they can all support, and it gives Obama something he needs: time. The ObamaCare roll-out is way behind, Obama’s in a bind, and it he’s willing to make a deal, everyone benefits, and all it costs is Harry Reid’s pride, which isn’t worth much to anyone anyway.

    ropelight (605a23)

  20. “And we’re putting our fingerprints all over the murder weapon.”

    Not really. This is not a serious assessment. Republicans can’t be blamed for a bad law even if it wants to defund it or delay it. Both measures will cripple the Obamacare to the benefit of the public, not make the good law worse. The public already expects the law to be a failure and many liberal groups got exemptions. Delay is an exemption. Defund is an exemption. Everyone needs an exemption.

    If the public wants to cry uncle, the outcry will force Congress and the President to repeal the law. Thus far, only the most conservative Republicans has demanded repeal. I don’t expect the Republicans to win the Senate in 2014 and the Presidency in 2016. There isn’t enough savvy Republicans that have the right stuff except for perhaps Cruz and I’m not sure he is popular among the Independents.

    So I’m in favor of letting the law work its magic. Let it come into full effect. The Republicans will only offer to repeal it, not fix it.

    Full Repeal (dbd183)

  21. “Help or Hurt”

    Well I think it all depends, on the party to Ocare’s perspective, particularly as to how it all shakes out.

    For Boehner doing anything could mean survival versus retirement.

    If the Congressional waiver remains and nothing much else results, then it is unmitigated disaster for the GOP incumbents in Congress, e.g., if McConnell, et al., persist in wooden repose.

    No where near as good as Defunding, conservatives should consider the weak brew a draw at best which would be better than we were looking at a couple of months ago.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  22. Not sure about the delay, but I agreed with the fight to defund Obamacare.

    If stopping Obamacare is a great thing, then, a 1% chance for a great thing is better than a 0% chance for a great thing. No harm is done and the Republicans are now the party that tried to stop Obamacare — that has always been true, but Mr. Cruz has made that quite public.

    When Obamacare melts, delay or not, those that are losing their jobs, having their hours cut, seeing their premiums rise, or seeing their benfits limited — they will remember two things: Obamacare = Democrats, and stopping-Obamacre = Republicans.

    All the nuances and manuvering, all the infighting, this stuff bores the he11 out of 70% of people (present company excluded, of course). All the really matters is balancing the terms of the equation in a simple manner that the public will idenitfy and remember, which IMHO Cruz did in a major way.

    The real battle is the primary. We all but won the general fight, they just don’t know it yet.

    *they = GOP establishment.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  23. If I was a member of the House I would propose re inserting the defund language, pass it and send it back to the senate. Put the ball back in their court. Then say “we can do this all year”!

    Gives the voters another chance to call their Senators and maybe force them to vote with Cruz.

    felipe (6100bc)

  24. I was not expecting TWO jars or your miracle syrup, Gary. Now I can say I have a “supply”.

    felipe (6100bc)

  25. You mean all those conservatives who swore to god that defunding was the very last chance to stop obamacare were lying through their teeth?

    @3 Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 9/28/2013 @ 11:35 am

    Please cite one conservative “swore to god” over this issue.

    If you cannot, then rather than saying you were “lying through their teeth,” let us just say your falsehood was the product of a mistake, which is far better consideration than you just gave to your fellow human beings. If indeed you cannot cite a source, consider that “you need to either expand your information sources beyond the” left “fringe or you need to hold that fringe to some standards of accountability because right now they know, KNOW, for a fact that they can lie to your face and you’ll just accept it.”

    Which appears is what you just did.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  26. I went looking to poke around the Illinois Obamacare exchange site earlier today which the state apparently paid consultant big bucks to name “Get Insurance Illinois.” As of today the Department of Insurance website still says the new website will go live on Tuesday and is trumpeting the fact that premium rates are lower than projected!!!!11ty!!!!!

    I will believe it when I see it, government working in Illinois is more the exception than the rule IMHO.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  27. Sorry, I meant “persuade them”, not “force them”. Goodness, what has come over me?

    felipe (6100bc)

  28. Please cite one conservative “swore to god” over this issue.

    =

    Please cite one conservative who “swore to god” over this issue.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  29. Tlaloc – How is the worst recovery since the Great Depression working out for you and your friends, if you have any? Are they at all troubled by potentially shelling out significantly higher dollar amounts for the miracle of Obamacare under current economic conditions?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  30. If they don’t understand the first one, they will not understand the second one, Pons.

    felipe (6100bc)

  31. I will go on a slim limb and say that Flailoc (nod to Steve57) is one of those happy few whose premium will be fully offset by the Govmt.

    felipe (6100bc)

  32. Since we can’t defund ObamaCare now, I think delay is the next best option for practical reasons rather than political reasons.

    Reports say the White House has authorized 19 delays by executive order, and I’m worried that the Administration can easily reverse the orders and retroactively impose fines and fees that will burden unsuspecting taxpayers and businesses. In addition, the law requires dozens and dozens of other mandates, reports, filings, etc., that haven’t been delayed — requirements that even attorneys familiar with the law would probably have trouble complying with. Average people don’t have a chance, and the fees and penalties for noncompliance can be significant.

    The only way to protect the public from consequences like this is for Congress to delay the implementation of ObamaCare.

    DRJ, your support for the delay measure will cause me to at least consider rethinking my tentative opposition. It reassures me that the tactic we are using now is not necessarily counterproductive.

    Patterico (74b11e)

  33. Team R is too steeped in this idea that they always always always have to couch their messagings in mindless Ronald Reaganesque morning in America happytalk.

    Morning in America.

    LOL.

    America is a sad pitiful oppressive and fascist debtwhore state, America is not even America anymore, and until Team R can be honest about this they’ll continue to be useless as tits on a nun.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  34. “If the exchanges did open but the individual mandate was postponed, experts say those likely to skip buying insurance are the young and the healthy – just the people most needed to broaden the risk pool and keep insurance rates low. Surging rates would antagonize the public. So would the absence of income-based subsidies”

    At least folks admit that the entire point is sabotage, not implementing it better.

    Dhar (d05934)

  35. Sounds good to me.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  36. Imdw never fails to deliver the asshattery.

    JD (ba6171)

  37. At least folks admit that the entire point is sabotage, not implementing it better.

    My $.02… this is the Democrats invention, they sought no input and passed it in the dead of night. As Nanski Pelosi said, “we have to pass the bill to know what’s in the bill”, and – truth be told – they still don’t know what is in “it”, so let the Democrats, President Armslength Asterisk and their low-info voters reap what they sowed and own the MFer.

    Colonel Haiku (243359)

  38. Wait a minute… just yesterday we were told that these “delayers” weren’t true conservatives… what has changed???

    Colonel Haiku (243359)

  39. Dhar, why not sabotage it? The Democrats pushed through a massive takeover of the health care insurance industry without even attempting to craft a bipartisan bill. They pushed it through with a parlimentary trick to avoid the usual requirements of 60 vote cloture in the Senate.

    And their bill was intended to sabotage the insurance industry to prepare Americans for single payer.

    Sabotage of Obamacare is in the best interests of the nation – something that the Democrats have no interest in.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  40. “Wait a minute… just yesterday we were told that these “delayers” weren’t true conservatives… what has changed???”

    And that the vote that mattered was lost.

    “The Democrats pushed through a massive takeover of the health care insurance industry without even attempting to craft a bipartisan bill”

    Ok what bipartisan ideas did they reject in Romneycare?

    Dhar (d05934)

  41. Dhar, you can’t read english can you, troll?

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  42. Romneycare did not force people in 49 other states to participate. Start there, Dhar-ling.

    elissa (491145)

  43. “Romneycare” wasn’t a GOP proposal. It was Romney’s work with Democrats in Massachusetts. Amusingly, Obamacare is destroying what little successes Romneycare had in Mass. due to its excessive regulation over and above Obamacare.

    But to try to assert that Romneycare was a GOP initiative is simply the kind of brazen dishonesty Democrats traffic in these days.

    Obamacare was specifically passed without any GOP participation because the Democrats wanted it that way.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  44. “Obamacare was specifically passed without any GOP participation because the Democrats wanted it that way.”

    What GOP proposal could have been added to it to gain GOP votes? The Grassley amendment got in. That now is a source of attacks on the bill, not support for it. Looking back on the history, at what legislative points do you see evidence of the GOP wanting to add to the bill and vote for it?

    Dhar (d05934)

  45. Dhar, you really aren’t a very good troll.

    SPQR (61a935)

  46. There weren’t any my friend. They dusted off the heritage universal health care proposal, and the GOP decided rather than working on that, they would make it Obama’s Waterloo. And that’s where we are today. Still trying that strategy with no idea of any alternative from the GOP.

    Dhar (d05934)

  47. more Fractured Fairytales from teh m00nbat…

    Colonel Haiku (243359)

  48. Defunding ACA was vastly preferable because it would have helped– at least temporarily– by getting rid of the costs of most all the excess IRS agents, the useless navigators, the exchange web designers, support staffs, and PR hacks.

    I guess delaying is better than nothing considering the catastrophe that is scheduled to befall us on Tuesday. But delay does not eliminate the bureaucrats or the unelected regulators or the created departments and all their salaries/grants/benefits. Both their hiring and make-work duties will continue apace on our taxpayer dime with little to show for it. The devastating uncertainty in the insurance markets and in the business community and in the medical community will continue to fester and create fall-out for yet another year.

    elissa (491145)

  49. The Democrats and Big Zer0 should be proud and own this signature POS legislation… they did it… TO the children.

    Colonel Haiku (243359)

  50. So letting it fail because it was disastrously designed is sabotaging it?

    JD (ba6171)

  51. “So letting it fail because it was disastrously designed is sabotaging it?”

    Try rereading the paragraph because you didn’t get it the first time.

    Dhar (d05934)

  52. It is truly amazing to see Democrats defend this utterly disasterous legislation.

    It is a complete fail. Its actually insured a tiny fraction of the people it was supposed to by now (if not actually reduced the number of insured people net), its dramatically increased premiums even as actual health care costs have flattened, its costly at least twice as much as the obviously fraudulent estimates that the Democrats flogged for it and its devastating our economy.

    Utter failure, with a high human cost. A cost that the Democrats are intentionally ignoring.

    SPQR (61a935)

  53. Iamadimwit – enjoy your remaining time.

    I understood your nonsense, as did everyone else. Nobody is sabotaging ObamaCare, expect the Dems that wrote it, and Teh One.

    JD (ba6171)

  54. It’s about ‘fundamental transformation’ that’s all they need to know.

    narciso (3fec35)

  55. Given that we’ve seen that Obama has used the IRS to attack political movements, illegally accessed tax records to attack political opponents and dramatically invaded the privacy of every American with the NSA …

    What kind of utter retard would think that Democrats would not use people’s Obamacare medical records against them?

    Obamacare destroys Americans most basic privacy. Their confidential discussions with their own doctor.

    SPQR (61a935)

  56. It is less surprising but still somewhat disappointing to see the entire Democrat party abandon all of its principles – indeed, burn its principles to the ground – to defend the incompetence of Obama, Reid and Pelosi.

    SPQR (61a935)

  57. Remember when the PATRIOT Act was passed (bipartisan by the way)? There was national uproar at the idea that the Fed’s could use a national security letter to obtain someone library book checkout records.

    Libraries across the nation redid their databases to dump such records to frustrate such an “invasion of privacy”.

    Democrats adopted legislation that required medical doctors to supply the government with medical records.

    No principles at all.

    SPQR (61a935)

  58. “. Nobody is sabotaging ObamaCare, expect the Dems that wrote it, and Teh One.”

    Did you not get the point that piece was making about the damage that delay would do? Or are you just on ideological repeat and you can’t see it?

    “I guess delaying is better than nothing considering the catastrophe that is scheduled to befall us on Tuesday. ”

    If the GOP chooses like they’re doing today, there will be a shutdown, and there will also be the exchanges opening on Tuesday. It’s not going to go quite like you’re expecting it to.

    Dhar (d05934)

  59. If no one gets to experience teh sux of zippycare prior to the 2014 election, how does this help the Republicans?

    boned to the bon (f7d5ba)

  60. Given that we’ve seen that Obama has used the IRS to attack political movements, illegally accessed tax records to attack political opponents and dramatically invaded the privacy of every American with the NSA …

    What kind of utter retard would think that Democrats would not use people’s Obamacare medical records against them?

    Obamacare destroys Americans most basic privacy. Their confidential discussions with their own doctor.

    Comment by SPQR (61a935) — 9/28/2013 @ 2:39 pm

    The America I thought I grew up in would never have tolerated such an intrusive government that seeks to know every private detail and control so much about my life. This stuff is none of their business. It only makes it worse that we’ve had so many examples of Obama’s admin abusing information for political purposes.

    Dustin (342165)

  61. Recent polls show that only a small percentage of Americans believe that it should be repealed or that it can be repealed. But by considerable margins, Americans of both parties and across all ages say they do not feel the implementation has proceeded smoothly or competently, or that the promised benefits to them and prices will come to fruition. It’s a mess. It’s a costly mess. It’s the Democrats’ mess. And that it was never, from the get-go, actually about medical care improvements has become obvious to all but the most fanatic and partisan among us.

    elissa (491145)

  62. Senator Cruz filibusters continuing resolution on funding government –> Terrorist

    Major Hasan kills 13 service men and women at a military base in the name of Islam –> disgruntled employee.

    That’s Democrat logic.

    SPQR (61a935)

  63. elissa, Obama himself explained in his campaigning for Obamacare in 2009 that cost savings would result by denying care to people not worthy of it.

    SPQR (61a935)

  64. It’a wonder they had a hard time working with the right on universal health care policy.

    Dhar (d05934)

  65. “It’a wonder they had a hard time working with the right on universal health care policy.”

    Dhar – In all fairness, it is hard to work with people through locked doors, so the democrats do have that excuse going for them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. He prided himself on the deliberation whether his grandmother would get the hip replacement,

    narciso (3fec35)

  67. It’a wonder they had a hard time working with the right on universal health care policy.

    Comment by Dhar (d05934) — 9/28/2013 @ 3:00 pm

    Another of Dhar’s brazen lies. Democrats intentionally cut the GOP out of the process, because they wanted it to be a solely Democrat “success”. The few times that they compromised, it was because they couldn’t get enough Democrats to support their extremist proposals.

    What America got was disaster.

    SPQR (61a935)

  68. 54.It’s about ‘fundamental transformation’ that’s all they need to know.
    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 9/28/2013 @ 2:38 pm

    I think I heard him reprise this line, that we are days away from the fundamental transformation of America when ObamaCare is implemented.

    He has gotten away with F+F, Benghazi, making illegal appointments, ignoring laws he doesn’t want to enforce
    no matter how bad it is or how illogical it is for so many exceptions to be given if it is so good, the media is playing Baghdad Bob for the one.

    Even though a majority say they don’t like ObamaCare, any idea that repubs are fighting for the majority just isn’t going to see the light of day.

    But the problem with letting it go forward to collapse under its own weight is that is a planned feature, not a bug, which is to be a crisis to be seized upon to make a nationalized system.

    There are times, probably more often than we realize, when the smartest thing is to pray that God intervenes.

    I didn’t realize how prophetic the song was/is- among the lyrics: “gangsters in power and lawbreakers making rules”, and “unrighteous doctors dealing drugs that will never cure your ills”

    Will America wake up in time?
    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc5OTU4NjA0.html

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  69. Dhar is looking forward to working on a Death Panel and denying health care to conservatives and their families.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  70. The delay is a mistake. Let it rip, and let the democrats bare all responsibility for it’s failure.

    Tina (adc842)

  71. Dhar is cheering the coming Democrat police state because he thinks he’s going to head the Stasi.

    SPQR (61a935)

  72. ==there will also be the exchanges opening on Tuesday. It’s not going to go quite like you’re expecting it to.==

    Dhar et al has always struck me as a shallow thinker and a poor debater but his work here today firmly puts him in the unicorn farts and fairy dust contingent. A new store can announce its grand opening date with flowery PR releases and fanfare. It can even hang an “open for business” sign on its front door or on its website’s home page. But if there’s no product, or the wrong product, or unsatisfactory selection, or an overpriced product– or if the customers can’t even get in through the front door or portal to find out, then it’s pretty much a catastrophe. Even some of Obamacare’s most ardent supporters and architects have stated that it will be a trainwreck. But not Dhar. He can’t wait till Oct. 1.

    elissa (491145)

  73. The mistake remains that the House should never have passed a continuing resolution at all.

    The House should have passed a full budget.

    The Senate keeps refusing to even vote upon a budget for the Federal government – abdicating their most fundamental duty as an institution. Which is consistent with the Democrats’ work in destroying our governmental institutions.

    No CR. Full budget or nothing.

    SPQR (61a935)

  74. “The few times that they compromised, it was because they couldn’t get enough Democrats to support their extremist proposals.”

    You don’t remember what happened to Snowe after she voted for the bill in committee? You really read that history as the democrats deciding to not deal with the GOP, rather than the other way around?

    Again, what proposals would have gotten how many GOP votes?

    Dhar (d05934)

  75. Dhar, you continue to misrepresent basic history. That’s because you are just another lying troll.

    SPQR (61a935)

  76. “The Senate keeps refusing to even vote upon a budget for the Federal government”

    The Senate passed a budget in March. The problem is now the GOP refuses to go to conference on a budget, because there they would have to make choices and contrast their vision directly with the Democrats.

    The demands for a budget from the Senate where always bluster. And you bought it.

    Dhar (d05934)

  77. So how do you read Snowe’s role in the health reform?

    Dhar (d05934)

  78. OTOH, I am reminded that there are still people who argue that Castro would have created a paradise if it were not for the American embargo.

    Some people do NOT learn until THEIR teeth are shattered on the pavement. And sometimes they blame the pavement.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  79. Casein point: Back in the 90’s, General Motors made an electric car called the EV1. It was terrible. It used lead-acid batteries (themselves a toxic nightmare) to power a large car that held only two people and didn’t go very fast or very far.

    It cost them $250,000 each to build and they leased them for a few years then recalled them all. At best it was a real-world engineering test.

    The Greens have not forgiven GM to this day for bagging the EV1. They even made a movie with the title “Who Killed the Electric Car?” which shows how completely they’d lost the plot.

    Some bad ideas have their proponents long after everyone sees that they were bad ideas. But until they see it for themselves, there’s almost no hope of convincing them that water will not flow uphill.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  80. “The problem is now the GOP refuses to go to conference on a budget”

    Dhar – Has the Senate debated the House budget, requested a conference schedule or named its conferees?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  81. Dhar is imdw. And this is a classic, where it runs around screaming SQUIRREL. Terrorists.

    JD (ba6171)

  82. Rather than delaying Obamacare, I would prefer to see all the waivers voided and all government workers forced to join.

    I want the sh*tstorm to hit everyone all at once, so that the politicians can’t lie about it so easily.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  83. “If you want to avoid nasty “surprises” like the 2012 election you need to either expand your information sources beyond the right fringe or you need to hold that fringe to some standards of accountability because right now they know, KNOW, for a fact that they can lie to your face and you’ll just accept it.

    Comment by Tlaloc ”

    Is that the reason why my comments are always blocked on left wing sites ? They’re so eager to hear other opinions, unlike Republicans ?

    You appear here with a totally unhelpful comment and nobody blocked you.

    Bubbles cannot tolerate even tiny holes. Ever tried a pin on one ?

    MikeK (dc6ffe)

  84. @30 Comment by felipe (6100bc) — 9/28/2013 @ 1:01 pm

    Heh, to true felipe.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  85. “If you want to avoid nasty “surprises” like the 2012 election you need to either expand your information sources beyond the right fringe or you need to hold that fringe to some standards of accountability because right now they know, KNOW, for a fact that they can lie to your face and you’ll just accept it.

    Given that the media in this country are almost entirely of the Left, it is bloody impossible for someone on the Right to stay in a bubble. Can’t even go to the supermarket without being exposed to blithering idiocy from some socialist propaganda organ.

    I wonder how many on the Left, though, go out of their way to read anything to the right of CNN. It seems like “not many” and certainly not the caliber of troll that shows up here.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  86. I was debating Obamacare with a staunch liberal/Democrat a few days ago and the blatant dishonesty and willful ignorance on his part was quite a sight (or sound) to behold.

    I caught him claiming that the health insurance he helped one of his employees obtain a few weeks ago had gone down since last year, even though I knew full well (based on what he had told me previously—which he apparently forgot I knew about) that the person in question (a 28-year-old female) hadn’t been previously insured. Total, blatant, pure BS from such people of the left. Then again, the devout liberal I was speaking with is a sycophant of Barack “Goddamn-America” Obama.

    BTW, this liberal, when asked if Obamacare is as wonderful and affordable for everyone as he claims it is, why doesn’t he then pick up the healthcare costs of the employee described above (and which I’m quite sure will be placing a major monthly burden on that person), blurted out “because I can’t afford it!!”

    Limousine liberals are a dime a dozen (and that’s all they’re worth).

    Mark (58ea35)

  87. Its annoying how incompetent Tladoc is, he never can make a simple correct factual statement – because he is so ignorant of reality.

    Even more so because keep in mind that one of the biggest beneficiaries of Obamacare is the corrupt, greedy, banana-republic-ized IRS, whose budget has been raised by over $500 million to help activate Obamacare.

    Mark (58ea35)

  88. After fours years of not even voting on a budget, the Senate barely passes one. The Senate’s budget adds more than 5 trillion in debt. The irresponsibility of Democrats is beyond belief.

    SPQR (768505)

  89. There’s another way to look at the delay thing: as a gambit.

    Assume that no matter how reasonable the Republicans are, that Obama will hold his breath hoping we all turn blue and eventually Congress is forced to give up, or default on bonds.

    The danger is that Obama has a moment of clarity and accepts a deal, but this isn’t likely. So the Republicans can say:

    “Look. This is crap. We have done everything we can humanly do to spare you folks having to wade through this crap, but the President has raised the stakes too high. Oh his head be it.”

    Then wait. When it fails, the Dems will try to shift the blame, but they will own it as much as Bush owned Iraq. More, because the Dems we originally on board with Iraq. Obamacare cannot claim that.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  90. Funny coming from me, but why not ignore these trolls. Besides, they will be too busy soon coming up with extra hours to pay for their “free” health care.

    I don’t know folks. I see delay as a better option. But everyone knows I am “squishy”! Still:

    1. For good or for ill, the “defund” business was being used by Teh Narrative to make Republicans look bad. It doesn’t matter what the truth is; most people don’t think deeply. Think about the optics. The optics are great for conservatives. But they aren’t the people who win elections. And the goal is to get fewer Statists into office in 2014 and 2016.

    2. Delay can help. Now, some may say, as our host, that “delay” makes Republicans vulnerable to all kinds of criticism. And sure, Team R has been, um, not up to speed on optics recently. But…

    This allows things to go to pieces, and Republicans to say, “Look, you elected these people, we thought it was a bad idea, and look at what is happening! Sure you want to vote for these people some more?”

    Then, of course, we need to give folks some people worth voting for!

    My opinion only. DRJ is more eloquent, as always.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  91. Rather than delaying Obamacare, I would prefer to see all the waivers voided and all government workers forced to join.

    I want the sh*tstorm to hit everyone all at once, so that the politicians can’t lie about it so easily.

    @82 Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 9/28/2013 @ 4:03 pm

    That is a great idea.

    (They’ll still lie though.)

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  92. One of the designers of this strategy, Ezekiel Emmanuel, who follows the ‘complete lives’ method, doesn’t believe in the Hippocratic oath.

    narciso (3fec35)

  93. @89 Kevin M
    FWIW, I think it is a gambit too, where the underlying idea is that Obamacare will fail and be overwhelmingly rejected by the people when it is implemented.

    Mr. Cruz played the perfect gambit. If the Democrats had caved, then Obamacare would have been defunded. A win for the nation.

    If Obamacare is implemented, then it will become hated even more than it is now. The populous will overwhelmingly demand that it be repealed, in which case Cruz positioned himself perfectly against any Democratic candidate.

    The only dicey part is the Republican primary.

    @90 Simon, I’m squishy on this too.

    I just don’t see the delay having a large, clear advantage. This just seems to have the feel of a pure tactic with no larger coordinated strategy (or worse, a dozen different strategies). Course, it could be the best idea since Swiss Cheese, not sure.

    As far as the MSM, no matter what the Republicans do, they will be crucified. Best to make a clear stand on the moral side of a popular argument — repeal Obamacare.

    No way to predict the future, but… Mr. Cruz is well positioned (uh, or will be, a couple years from now).

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  94. Delay is what they wanted, why do we give it to them,
    why not make it equitable by removing the exemptions.

    narciso (3fec35)

  95. I’m always amused by lefties who say the right should work to make their crapfest better.

    How about we just try to stop the crapfest?

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  96. “Dhar – Has the Senate debated the House budget, requested a conference schedule or named its conferees?”

    Last I checked the GOP was refusing to appoint conferees.

    “After fours years of not even voting on a budget, the Senate barely passes one.”

    What does it mean to “barely” pass a budget?

    Did you go and figure out what the new talking points are? Remember, don’t ask for ‘regular order’ anymore, ok?

    “The Senate’s budget adds more than 5 trillion in debt. The irresponsibility of Democrats is beyond belief.”

    So let’s go to conference, right?

    Dhar (d05934)

  97. Is this really that silly imdw person? Again? If it is, wow, is all the nickname issues ever evidence of humongous immaturity.

    To be charitable, anyway.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  98. Pons, I’m more of a Rand guy than Cruz, but whatever.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  99. My main problem with the “delay” idea is that it will allow them to implement Obamacare in a way that will hit few people at the same time.

    “First they came for the self-employed, and I wasn’t self-employes, so I did not object…” etc.

    Delay seems like guillotine repair to me.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  100. The GOP prefers not to surrender all at once. They prefer a long, drawn out kind of surrender where they give their supporters the hope that some minor, tiny, little piece of of something good will be the result of their posturing, before they inevitably cave and show their supporters to be Charlie Browns to their Lucy.

    Anon Y. Mous (8ec442)

  101. You realize, of course, that the Obamacare subsidy model is what Medicare will become within a decade.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  102. The GOP prefers not to surrender all at once. They prefer a long, drawn out kind of surrender where they give their supporters the hope that some minor, tiny, little piece of of something good will be the result of their posturing, before they inevitably cave and show their supporters to be Charlie Browns to their Lucy.

    Kind of like abortion.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  103. is all the nickname issues ever evidence of humongous immaturity.

    I often wonder how old such people are.

    I truly believe that anyone who leans left, certainly as far left and who’s as old as 52-year-old Obama is, is intrinsically immature.

    It’s one thing to be liberal when one is young, naive, inexperienced, foolish and gullible. But to be a liberal after one has gone through his or her growing-up years — particularly in 2013 when the middle of the socio-political spectrum is further to the left than it was 30, 40 or 50 years ago — is a case of stunted or defective maturity.

    Mark (58ea35)

  104. Tlaloc and Dharma, what do you think about Kevin’s comment:

    “Rather than delaying Obamacare, I would prefer to see all the waivers voided and all government workers forced to join.

    I want the sh*tstorm to hit everyone all at once, so that the politicians can’t lie about it so easily.”

    I’m curious: Does it concern you that government employees and members of Congress do not have to participate in the same way the Everyman is required to? Does a double standard wherein our elected officials get to make a different choice than the public concern you?

    Dana (6178d5)

  105. “You realize, of course, that the Obamacare subsidy model is what Medicare will become within a decade.”

    That’s the Ryan plan — to turn Medicare into Obamacare.

    Dhar (d05934)

  106. Pons, I just feel that the MSM will have trouble blaming the Republicans for delaying this nonsense. Trying to defund it can appear partisan to people from outside. And the Right has a great defense: little about the ACA seems to be working well. Story after story about systems not being ready, rushing to hire people, hacked systems, sticker shock at increased prices, rumour and scandal about kickbacks and exemptions.

    All from the MSM with kneepads firmly in place for this Administration.

    Why, it is like they hadn’t planned anything out carefully on the Left. It’s almost as if it was an idea from the heart without a plan from the brain..and most especially a plan to implement such a huge bureaucratic structure.

    Sure, Republicans are right to oppose it. It’s a dumb idea, not because reforms to health care are a bad idea (anyone who is interested should check out Mike K’s great discussions of reforming health care on his own fine blog). It’s the “coral reef” style (i.e., it just grew willy nilly) aspect to the plan. How many pages? How much weird verbiage?

    It’s almost as if the ACA is a wholly political idea, rather than a concrete, carefully crafted program, with consideration of logistics and unintended outcomes. It seems to me that the President is surprised by some of the oddities to “his” plan. Heck, it’s *almost* like it was crafted by anonymous staffers, while the politicians who push it have utterly no idea what is contained in the plan.

    Just like Pelosi said. “We’ll pass the plan to find out what is in it.”

    The good part about a delay is that there will be a constant drum beat of what is wrong with it, as it begins to unfurl.

    Yes, some folks in the “Let It Burn” contingent want it passed, right now, so it blows up in the Democrats’ faces. And I believe it will cost lives.

    But me? I want every Democrat who voted for it having to defend that vote as the delay shows all the problems without crashing the system immediately. I want them to defend it as they run up for re-election. Every. Single. One.

    Not because I am a partisan. It is because I doubt any of those chuckleheads know what is in the silly plan that they champion. Honestly, I want every single one of those congresscritters to take a quiz on the ACA. No cheating, no staffers. Congresscritters like to run their mouths, after all. Because I am certain they don’t think about the ACA’s actually structure or outcomes at all. It’s a “Because Obama” moment. So let them own it. 100%.

    And I suspect the MSM will be less invested in defending it if it is delayed. It it actually started in a few days, I think the MSM would have to sign on, and explain how this bizarre crap sandwich is actually yummy tofu tartare.

    Fingers crossed. Republicans can actually—if they are smart–say things that are intelligent and true. Such as “Look at all the implementation problems we see right now. The President calls them ‘glitches.’ But then, his name is on the plan; of course he defends it. Let’s see how the plan works out where the rubber meets the road. We shouldn’t rush into this.” Then, as problems arise, more delays, more doubts, etc.

    Because this is a Hoover Dam of a bill, but written by people who know nothing about engineering. It’s the equivalent of doodling on the back of an envelope.

    So “Delay until we figure out how to best implement, given the problems we see” appears a good tactic.

    Just my opinion, again.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  107. “I’m curious: Does it concern you that government employees and members of Congress do not have to participate in the same way the Everyman is required to?”

    The exchange is for people who don’t currently have employer insurance, so not Everyman. I think eventually we should do away with the preferential tax treatment for employer subsidies and move away from this ridiculous situation where group plans are tied to employment, government employment or not.

    Dhar (d05934)

  108. One of the designers of this strategy, Ezekiel Emmanuel, who follows the ‘complete lives’ method, doesn’t believe in the Hippocratic oath.

    @92 Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 9/28/2013 @ 6:23 pm

    He is worse than that, narciso — his big idea (pdf) is that as a person ages, he or she typically becomes less valuable to society and therefore should have less health care resources. Same reasoning for dementia, the disabled,… in short, guidelines for a death panel.

    Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel was a chief architect of Obamacare and, yes, his brother is Rahm.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  109. Pons, I’m more of a Rand guy than Cruz, but whatever.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 9/28/2013 @ 7:08 pm

    Works for me too.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  110. I think we should do away with the whole unconstitutional, stupid idea. And, yes, I am well aware of Chief Justice Roberts’ opinion on the fiasco.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  111. Each solution, begat the next problem;

    http://twitchy.com/2013/09/28/rep-ted-deutch-doesnt-miss-the-old-days-when-bureaucrats-ran-health-insurance/

    there was no such thing as a preexizting condition before the HMO bill

    narciso (3fec35)

  112. if we can’t, or, more accurately, won’t kill it, call up “Ramming Speed” and shove this down the throat and up the 4th point of contact of every Obamacare supporter.

    let them embrace the suck and suffer every exquisite pain that is government provided healthcare.

    this halfazzed approach is just further proof the GOP is the “Party of Stupid” and the the RINOs in charge of it and in the RNC need to be run out of town on a rail, with lots of tar & feathers involved in the process.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  113. 24. Well, I’m pleased you like it, and yeah, it’s more refreshing than, say good maple syrup. Nothing taken away from lightly viscous dark colored maple syrup, but berries can decidedly be better.

    Alastor commends black currant jelly as ‘glorious’. Ima gonna buy one in the spring to plant along side.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  114. Don’t try this at home, leave it to the professionals;

    http://twitchy.com/2013/09/28/what-a-sham-rep-jared-polis-pens-an-anti-cruz-anti-shutdown-poem/

    narciso (3fec35)

  115. Tlaloc and Dharma, what do you think about Kevin’s comment:

    “Rather than delaying Obamacare, I would prefer to see all the waivers voided and all government workers forced to join…”

    I’m curious: Does it concern you that government employees and members of Congress do not have to participate in the same way the Everyman is required to? Does a double standard wherein our elected officials get to make a different choice than the public concern you?

    Another example of a made up controversy. Staffer’s health insurance is bought by their employer just like millions of other employees. That their employer happens to be the US Government makes no difference.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  116. So do any of you ever notice the inherent contradiction of simultaneously insisting that:
    A) Obamacare will be horribly painful , AND
    B) Obamacare will be so popular once the subsidies start that it will be impossible to roll back

    Pick one argument or the other but not both, please.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  117. I guess, “Tlaloc” (or is this one imdw?), that you have never noticed how people love to buy junk food, to the proven detriment of their own health.

    Silly rabbit.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  118. ==Staffer’s health insurance is bought by their employer just like millions of other employees. That their employer happens to be the US Government makes no difference.==

    See, here’s why economically literate people look at your comments and do facepalms. There is a huge difference. The taxpayers of America do not have to buy the employees’ health insurance for AT&T or Boeing or Comcast or Apple. In contrast, the U.S. Government has no money of its own, yet it hires and spends with little accountability and expects the taxpayers to blissfully foot the bill. This pisses a lot of people off. The U.S. Government is not an employer like private businesses.

    elissa (491145)

  119. OK, I pick A. Do I win a Timex watch?

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  120. That their employer happens to be the US Government makes no difference

    Well, it does make a difference because if every and all Americans can get on that gravy train, the shout should be “all aboard!”

    One thing I will say is that if liberals like you at least work for the government, particularly for the IRS, then I can better understand your POV. IOW, pangs of greed and lazy self-interest would therefore better explain — and perhaps even justify — your foolishness.

    Mark (58ea35)

  121. Here’s an example of a little known $100 a day penalty on small businesses that fail to provide required notifications to employees by October 1, 2013. Reportedly the collection of this penalty has been waived by the government, but for how long? How many other requirements like this are there like this?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  122. 115. Part of the argument, Howard J., is that Healthcare Clinics/Providers/Insurers are currently undergoing rounds of mergers. This reduces competition and applies upward pressure to pricing.

    Insurers are exiting markets, and streamlining their offerings reducing choice. Since all offerings include services most do not need in their entirety costs are boosted.

    Physcians are leaving their practice at an accelerating rate and prospective physicians are changing their plans for Med School.

    Clinics have already changed practices. The role of the physician has been radically diminished. The head nurse is now the overseer of the floor. Care is reduced in large part to updating the fields of software pages on the laptops carried from room to room connected to databases by wireless.

    Communication with patients is precluded, the physicians are less engaged, and disciplines have suffered gravely with lowered morale.

    There are no doubt other issues pertaining but I am merely an informed consumer, not a professional.

    In short, your dilemma is false and absurd.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  123. 115. Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 9/28/2013 @ 8:05 pm

    So do any of you ever notice the inherent contradiction of simultaneously insisting that:
    A) Obamacare will be horribly painful , AND
    B) Obamacare will be so popular once the subsidies start that it will be impossible to roll back

    Ted Cruz made Argument B in August:

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/senator-ted-cruz-on-defunding-obamacare/

    …no major entitlement has ever gone into effect and been unwound, and so once those subsidies kick in, in all likelihood it will prove impossible to repeal Obamacare. Now, if that proposition is true, and I [have] yet to hear anyone give a credible refutation to it, it raises the second point that is critical which is the continuing resolution is the only option that anyone has suggested that has a chance of defunding Obamacare and stopping it…. I think we are well situated for Republicans to take a majority of the Senate in 2014, but if the subsidies have kicked in, they will never be repealed. If you go back, I would challenge anyone who’s a skeptic on this to point to a single subsidy the federal government has ever put in place that has been unwound…

    but, i spite opf the fact that Ted Cruz may have some fans here, I don’t think anyone here has actually endorsed this argument, if they even know he made it, and besides that
    I suspect those words of Ted Cruz probably are now inoperative.

    Anyway, since when are subsidies all there is to Obamacare? People want lower priced insurance – they want lower priced health care, that’s true. The market is wrecked and Obamacare wrecks it some more.

    Sammy Finkelman (366297)

  124. “The Senate’s budget adds more than 5 trillion in debt. The irresponsibility of Democrats is beyond belief.”

    So let’s go to conference, right?

    Democrats create a completely irresponsible budget that violates all the principles agreed during the debt ceiling negotiations and that’s all you got?

    Democrats are intentionally destroying our most basic institutions. That they intend to create a banana republic is the only conclusion.

    SPQR (768505)

  125. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 9/28/2013 @ 8:28 pm

    How many other requirements like this are there like this?

    I’m more interested in penalties to the average individual, or recalculations of insurance costs. Look there for trouble. Coming April 2015.

    If people plan ahead they can avoid trouble by increasing their withholding in 2014, so that they are not entitled to a refund and instead owe taxes (try to keep it under $1,000 or withhold at least 90% of what you will eventually owe or the full amount of tax due the previous year so as avoid being required to file estimated taxes, and take extra deductions you can move in 2013)

    You will only have to pay regular income taxes, not the Obamacare penalty. That is only to be collected from income tax refunds due you.

    Sammy Finkelman (366297)

  126. 101. Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 9/28/2013 @ 7:14 pm

    You realize, of course, that the Obamacare subsidy model is what Medicare will become within a decade.

    No way. That would turn Medicare into a version of Medicaid.

    Sammy Finkelman (366297)

  127. So do any of you ever notice the inherent contradiction of simultaneously insisting that:
    A) Obamacare will be horribly painful , AND
    B) Obamacare will be so popular once the subsidies start that it will be impossible to roll back

    Pick one argument or the other but not both, please.

    @115 Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 9/28/2013 @ 8:05 pm

    Its like a meth addict. Horrible and painful, but once addicted, it will be not be easy to roll back.

    FWIW: You tried to present a false dilemma.

    Btw Tlaloc, how is your homework going:

    You mean all those conservatives who swore to god that defunding was the very last chance to stop obamacare were lying through their teeth?

    @3 Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 9/28/2013 @ 11:35 am

    Please cite one conservative [who] “swore to god” over this issue.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  128. Tlaoc and Dhar,

    Where does the government get its money from to pay salaries and where does a private business owner get money from to pay their employers? Do you any difference between a business that produces a product and derives an income from the production and sale of said product and the government’s “business”?

    Dana (6178d5)

  129. Eh… “Pay their *employees*”…

    Dana (6178d5)

  130. Eh again…”Do you *see* any difference…?

    Dana (6178d5)

  131. 34. …At least folks admit that the entire point is sabotage, not implementing it better.

    Comment by Dhar (d05934) — 9/28/2013 @ 1:19 pm

    Alternate Dhar:

    At least folks admit that the entire point is sabotaging Dachau and Buchenwald, not implementing them better.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  132. Heh, that is actually great news narciso, IMV.

    They don’t see it coming.

    *They = GOP establishment, unnamed because i am not allowed to tell;-)

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  133. Pons–ve haff our vays of getting information out of people like you!

    elissa (491145)

  134. elissa — now I’m scared.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  135. If anyone needs a 15 inch dagger, they’re half price at Museum Replica Products until 9 in the morning.

    https://www.museumreplicas.com/p-271-poignard.aspx

    Of course, your state or local laws will vary regarding whether or not you can own or carry these weapons.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  136. That is, 9 on Monday.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  137. Of course, your state or local laws will vary regarding whether or not you can own or carry these weapons.

    I live in California. We have to register out barbecue forks here, and con only buy kitchen knives that are on the state register.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  138. “The taxpayers of America do not have to buy the employees’ health insurance for AT&T or Boeing or Comcast or Apple”

    There is a tax impact though, because that part of their compensation escapes taxes.

    “Democrats create a completely irresponsible budget that violates all the principles agreed during the debt ceiling negotiations and that’s all you got?”

    It’s not what *I* got. It’s the next step in the budget process. The GOP doesn’t want to go to that step because they can’t force a shutdown over health coverage (and reportedly, even contraception) in conference, but instead are forced to flesh out the fantasy of the Ryan budget into its awful reality.

    “Democrats are intentionally destroying our most basic institutions. That they intend to create a banana republic is the only conclusion.”

    You were told to ask for a budget so much that you completely missed it when one passed months ago. And now its on to the next game – 3 month CRs over contraception. And they also told you you don’t want to live in a Banana Republic.

    “At least folks admit that the entire point is sabotaging Dachau and Buchenwald, not implementing them better.”

    I should add, that the Iranian president is beholden to a minority that refuses to see the Holocaust for what it was too, besides seeing Obama as representative of the Great Satan.

    Dhar (d05934)

  139. 132. I think with that riposte its time to consign this critter to a regimen of silence.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  140. Here’s a list of premium comparisons for the young and healthy.

    Now remember, your ERs will still be running 24/7 and triage will be the order as seeing a new doctor will require months.

    They’re full up.

    But at least the private plan pays its bills.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  141. 142. Oh, of course, the link:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/09/30-or-under-prepare-for-epic-price.html

    Any day now my kid will refuse to acknowledge me in public.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  142. Yes, Mr, Blendon wouldn’t have any ulterior motive would he;

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa042360

    narciso (3fec35)

  143. Mornin’ narciso,
    When The Lancet and NEJM became organs for propaganda against the Iraq war, for homosexual rights/anti-Christian worldview and other such things I believe it was a marker for how far society had fallen.

    Alinsky’s patron “saint” has been successful in leading many astray in a mass delusion.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  144. I still like delay for practical reasons but, politically, I think it’s also a win for the GOP now that Obama has promised to veto any attempt to delay implementation of ObamaCare.

    We’ve done all we can do to stop ObamaCare. The only way to stop it now is to give Republicans control of Congress and the White House.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  145. Patterico,

    Ted Cruz discusses repeal, defunding, and delay on Meet The Press today. In addition, it’s not included in the linked clip but Cruz also said one of his favorite Senate role models was when Phil Gramm opposed HillaryCare at a time when many GOP Senators were willing to agree to a form of socialized medicine, but Gramm changed the debate by saying it would only pass over his cold, dead, political body. Reading that last link about Gramm, he was right about a lot of things.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  146. About the veto, DRJ. I’m hoping that it’s another one of the “red line” issues for this character. Except he is more afraid of Syria, it would appear, than his political opponents.

    Simon Jester (0909c9)

  147. Absolutely, Simon. Obama doesn’t fear the GOP at all, except people like Limbaugh and Cruz that he tries to demonize. That should tell Republicans something.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  148. Phil Gramm is 71 years old, which isn’t old by Senate standards. It was his Senate seat that Cornyn now holds. How fun would it be for Gramm to run against Cornyn next year?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  149. From the Link:
    Gramm remarked that only two people in Washington had read the entire health-care bill, himself and Hillary Clinton: “She loved it, I hated it.”
    hey, some things don’t change

    He didn’t go in for what was later called “compassionate conservatism,” because conservatism — just plain conservatism, freedom — was compassionate, dammit, and why didn’t more people understand that? And he was tired of being lectured to about poverty and hardship by people who had never known any.
    yes.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  150. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 9/29/2013 @ 8:24 am

    That’s a good idea.
    In the link he also said he would be a good presidential candidate only in a crisis, but there was no crisis in 1996.
    Well, that has changed.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  151. 71. Cornyn says he is “well prepared” for being primaried. Don’t know what that might entail beyond having $20 Million banked.

    Is Tejas a ‘run-off’ state?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  152. 150. Ah, ha, that was intended for DRJ. Get the home ready, I won’t be tarrying.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  153. Cornyn is relying on his huge money advantage but I think the recent cloture vote hurt him. He still has big name recognition, business support, and money — so he will be hard to beat — but there’s a chance Cornyn could be beaten if he stays below 50% in the primary. That’s how Cruz beat Dewhurst.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  154. but there was no crisis in 1996.

    And so we ran Dole, whose doddering campaign was probably the worst in modern history.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  155. 156. I’m not saying no Senator has ever made a decent President, I just don’t care to uncover an exception to the rule.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  156. Keep it On-Schedule, but without any exemptions and carve-outs.

    “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” – H. L. Mencken

    askeptic (2bb434)

  157. just plain conservatism, freedom — was compassionate, dammit, and why didn’t more people understand that?

    It’s interesting that the response of most people on the right towards the stereotype of conservatism is to either sidestep the matter or — instead of doing a countervailing version of what many liberals/Democrats do to their opponents (ie, happily lob words like “mean,” “heartless,” “racist” or concepts like “throw grandma out of her wheelchair” — focus on the nature and traits of oneself (ie, the right) instead of really smoking out the nature of the other side.

    Mark (58ea35)

  158. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 9/29/2013 @ 8:42 am

    http://www.texansforstovall.com

    askeptic (2bb434)

  159. I’m familiar with Stovall. I think his campaign will have a tough time gaining traction.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  160. Smart Republicans need to understand this is an opportunity to build the Brand. All the back and forth is just tactical movement. Listen to Cruz, this is about representing the will of the people to stop the destructive Obamacare Law. Period. Rest is navel gazing.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  161. Stoval….A lot of people at this point in the 2012 election cycle had not heard of this Cruz guy either.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  162. Texas is such a big state and there are too many markets and places a candidate has to reach, so money really matters. It took Cruz a lot of luck and 2 years of effort, and he had connections and support I don’t think Stovall has. With such a short time frame between now and the primary, it’s going to take someone with big name recognition to make a credible run against Cornyn. Perry could do it but he wants to run for President.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  163. #143 Personally Gary I welcomed the under 30 crowd being royally f**** as hard as possible and hopefully they get a milky load in their face too. They are mostly imbeciles with the minds of 14 year olds. From relationships to economic, poltics and personal responsibility. They are pygmies in comparison to even their nut job Baby Boomer parents and an embarrassment to anyone with a memory of what this Country was post WWII.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  164. I understand that Stovall is going county by county speaking to groups.
    Perhaps this will start a flow of cash into his coffers allowing him to present himself in the big media markets of TX?
    Or, he could just keep on, keep on, with the small meetings generation word-or-mouth and becoming another of those candidates that, after years of effort, just appear miraculously from nowhere.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  165. RKS, stop sugar-coating it.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  166. Personally all Conservatives should pursue a funding strategy of going after (D) in Red States and selecting 1 or 2 high profile RINOs to take down. Cornyn is not one of those IMHOs.

    Other things all Conservatives should do refuse funding the GOP. Only fund the Candidates. Not the Party.

    Money talks and focusing in on wins is helpful while taking it away from RINOs is a good thing.

    Pick a few duds, so be it. Duds are better than RINOs.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  167. #167 Facts suck. “Los palos enseñan.”

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  168. DRJ, do you think Cruz going vocal for someone other than Cornyn would be a way to leap into the fight?
    I don’t know how much respect is between Cornyn and Cruz now.

    I can respect a Repub who says they think Cruz’ pan was not a good strategy as far as really blocking ObamaCare goes, IF they can appreciate his seriousness to bring attention to it and fulfill his campaign promises,
    those who wanted to trash him, no time for those folk anymore.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  169. Stovall didn’t even win his own District race. His campaign has no money. He is not a viable candidate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  170. #170 Cruz is building the brand. His old buddy Boehner is helping.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  171. I doubt Cruz will get involved in Cornyn’s race unless there is a run-off. It would be needlessly insulting and damage their ability to work together in the future. But I also doubt Cruz will endorse Cornyn before the general election. Cornyn is acting more like Dewhurst and that may work for Cornyn’s re-election but it isn’t consistent with Cruz’s politics.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  172. Comment by Rodney King’s Spirit (5afc40) — 9/29/2013 @ 9:30 am

    I am not sure they will make sense of reality even after it happens to them, which is the scary thing. In one way exploits of the past do not instill courage, they only inspire courage when new exploits are called for. If the challenge is not taken up, or is not thrust upon one, the inspiration of the past becomes more fairy tale than mythic.
    The myths of import for too many today is that in the 60’s when the people stood up to the fuddy-duddy establishment, things changed for the better.
    That is a false and sad myth to emulate.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  173. 165. Well memembering back to 1972 and my first opportunity, maybe junior year, I was taking 4 courses at 5+ credits each and had a girl friend but no school year job as I could make what I needed during the Summer.

    The menu was Nixon|McGovern|Some Socialist.

    I think today’s kids have no incentive to vote in 2014, zip.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  174. 128. Comment by Pons Asinorum (8ce71a) — 9/28/2013 @ 9:10 pm @Tlaloc

    Please cite one conservative [who] “swore to god” [that defunding was the very last chance to stop obamacare]

    That is pretty close to what Senator Ted Cruz claimed on the Hugh Hewitt show of Friday, August 2, 2013:

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/senator-ted-cruz-on-defunding-obamacare/

    in modern history, no major entitlement has ever gone into effect and been unwound, and so once those subsidies kick in, in all likelihood it will prove impossible to repeal Obamacare. Now, if that proposition is true, and I yet to hear anyone give a credible refutation to it, it raises the second point that is critical which is the continuing resolution is the only option that anyone has suggested that has a chance of defunding Obamacare and stopping it.

    Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd)

  175. 147. Also on Meet the Press, Chris Matthews made an apt comparison.

    It was like kidnapping, only instead of holding the baby and wanting the money, [the Republicans] have the money and want the baby.

    Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd)

  176. @DRJ about Phil Gramm: Reading that last link about Gramm, he was right about a lot of things.

    I remember he said sometime before 1992 that he didn’t expect any Democrat to be elected president “in my lifetime.”

    Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd)

  177. ol’ Phil sure wasn’t right about teh Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, the sonuva^%$$# !

    Colonel Haiku (8cb2d5)

  178. #143 Personally Gary I welcomed the under 30 crowd being royally f**** as hard as possible and hopefully they get a milky load in their face too. They are mostly imbeciles with the minds of 14 year olds…. They are pygmies in comparison to even their nut job Baby Boomer parents….
    — Comment by Rodney King’s Spirit

    RKS, stop sugar-coating it.
    — Comment by askeptic

    LOL.

    FWIW, just think of how in this age of post-Monica-Lewinsky, the metaphor used by RKS (whether literal or figurative) is seen by more and more Americans not as a negative, but as an exciting, positive thing. The very fact that far too many people actually think that Bill’s doormat, Hillary, is a viable, heart-warming possibility for the presidency illustrates just how far the US has sunk, how much of a banana republic we’ve become.

    Mark (58ea35)

  179. Here’s another argument that sees benefits from delay.

    Also, it looks like the Yahoo link in the original post that argues delay is a win-win has gone away. Yahoo seems to do that a lot but it isn’t the only one. I can see why online publishers can’t preserve articles in perpetuity but I wish they wouldn’t eliminate articles so quickly.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  180. A two’fer, just continue to the preceding story after the link via the ‘Home’ button.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/09/tea-party-california-caucus-tech-based-gameplan-for-ca-gop-convention/

    TEA support at the grassroots level is already at pre-election levels. The Senate GOP could easily lose members.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  181. Colonel Haiku,

    That topic is beyond my expertise but here is Gramm’s response.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  182. Sammy #178,

    I can’t find any quote like that. Can you help me find a link or report that supports your recollection?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  183. Could you be thinking of Ed Schultz, Sammy?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  184. 182 – Why do Tea Party members want to stay with the party of I me me mine?
    They should drop the big business block, and go after young minds that can be persuaded.

    mg (31009b)

  185. Looks like no Dhimmi is on the slate yet vs. Cornyn. That may change, the margin is undecided prior to the ObamaneyCare dustup.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  186. mg,

    I think young people tended to gravitate to the Libertarian Party in the past, and Tea Party members weren’t that politically active. If either or both are moving toward the GOP, perhaps it’s because they see benefits from having a Party with a bigger base. It could also be they feel more urgency about getting immediate results that can only come from the higher profile of a major political Party.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  187. I’m talking about young people and Tea Party-types before 2008. Not 2010 and later.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  188. That isn’t what I meant to say. I’m trying to say that people who weren’t interested in the GOP before 2008 might be more open to it since then — but for practical reasons rather than ideological reasons.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  189. 186. I’m thinking in CA the hope is to engineer a takeover at the local level, their task of bringing a third party online being prohibitive.

    MN is in kind of a bind because the quasi-established third party is RINO.

    But actual conservative States like NE are off and running a viable insurgency.

    That leaves Red States that are waging an uphill battle to mount an insurgency to actually start a third party. A good candidate might be MO.

    Akin the establishment choice proved a Prosimian and Brunner and Steelman thwarted each other. Why not sort out the challenger before a GOP primary?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  190. May be that young people see the split in the Arnold party and see that the “Tea Party” is not made up of big business and old white pathological liars.
    Realizing they were lied to by all democrats and the media, they are faced with two awful choices. Liars or Traitors?
    3rd Party Time.
    It is a new Century, correct?

    mg (31009b)

  191. 192. Personally, I think you’re on to something. The Reagan Democrats were lower-middle class conservatives, especially in N/S border states like WV.

    These people are already either TEAs or will be soon as ObamaneyCare and pension default upsets their applecart. With Amnesty they have no home.

    In some states DRJ’s hopes of turning the GOP may be realized but only those with a clear conservative majority that is heeded. Even there the gentry will fight with everything they have, like Dhimmis.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  192. 128. Comment by Pons Asinorum (8ce71a) — 9/28/2013 @ 9:10 pm @Tlaloc

    Please cite one conservative [who] “swore to god” [that defunding was the very last chance to stop obamacare]

    That is pretty close to what Senator Ted Cruz claimed on the Hugh Hewitt show of Friday, August 2, 2013:

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/senator-ted-cruz-on-defunding-obamacare/

    in modern history, no major entitlement has ever gone into effect and been unwound, and so once those subsidies kick in, in all likelihood it will prove impossible to repeal Obamacare. Now, if that proposition is true, and I yet to hear anyone give a credible refutation to it, it raises the second point that is critical which is the continuing resolution is the only option that anyone has suggested that has a chance of defunding Obamacare and stopping it.

    @176 Comment by Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd) — 9/29/2013 @ 10:15 am

    Thanks Sammy, and that was a good try. The problem is that Mr. Cruz did not “swear to god” — not even close. I did a word check on your link and the word “god” does not even show up.

    Also, I accept your rewrite of my quote. That is quite correct.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  193. @176 Comment by Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd) — 9/29/2013 @ 10:15 am

    Also, CR being the only way to defund Obamacare does NOT equal “the only way to stop Obamacare.”

    Re Mr. Cruz’s statement:

    in modern history, no major entitlement has ever gone into effect and been unwound,…

    That is true.

    Re his statement:

    …and so once those subsidies kick in, in all likelihood it will prove impossible to repeal Obamacare.

    That is true.

    Re his statement:

    Now, if that proposition is true, and I yet to hear anyone give a credible refutation to it, it raises the second point that is critical which is the continuing resolution is the only option that anyone has suggested that has a chance of defunding Obamacare and stopping it.

    That is, I believe, true — the CR was the only chance of defunding Obamacare that anyone has so for suggested.

    And of course, you are smart enough to know that defunding Obamacare is only one option amongst many to stopping Obamacare.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  194. Comment by Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd) — 9/29/2013 @ 10:15 am

    Unmentioned, I believe, is that ObamaCare is the only major entitlement program in the last 80-years that did not enjoy bi-partisan support for passage in the Congress.
    For that reason, and perhaps that reason alone (other than it is unworkable and could create more confusion and crisis in the economy than the Lehman collapse) it is possible to unwind (repeal) it – particularly if concurrent with repeal, Congress enacts true reforms that re-enforce the current market for health-care insurance, and not destroy it.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  195. Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 9/29/2013 @ 10:43 am

    The Senate GOP deserves to lose some of the more squishy members, to be replaced by one’s with a more solid conservative, small-government philosophy such as Paul/Cruz/Lee.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  196. Gary – With lower class conservatism on the rise, I would trade young cannabis users votes for the big business votes.

    mg (31009b)

  197. gary and mg,

    I don’t think young people and Tea Partiers will necessarily be attracted to the GOP but, if they are, I think the main reason will be practical rather than ideological. The GOP is arguably the best available vehicle for achieving immediate state and national political results, but other vehicles may be more appealing at the local level.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  198. “That is, I believe, true — the CR was the only chance of defunding Obamacare that anyone has so for suggested.”

    They could win an election on undoing Obamacare. Or no, they can’t.

    Dhar (d05934)

  199. 196.Comment by Sammy Finkelman (7b0afd) — 9/29/2013 @ 10:15 am

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 9/29/2013 @ 12:44 pm

    Unmentioned, I believe, is that ObamaCare is the only major entitlement program in the last 80-years that did not enjoy bi-partisan support for passage in the Congress.
    For that reason, and perhaps that reason alone (other than it is unworkable and could create more confusion and crisis in the economy than the Lehman collapse) it is possible to unwind (repeal) it

    We can also add that the other entitlements were either not means tested or affected only a small portion of the population.

    Nobody is going to like this system,

    Imagaine the same thinbg with K-12 education.

    Compulsory education – but you hAVE TO PAY FOR IT. You c

    – particularly if concurrent with repeal, Congress enacts true reforms that re-enforce the current market for health-care insurance, and not destroy it.

    Wq

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  200. Sitemeter in the main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library?

    Anyway:

    You can plead poverty, but any subsidy will be recalculated when and if you file your income taxes next year.

    Same fee per child with some difference only according to age and maybe things that cause it to cost more but are under your control (like smoking is for health)

    Who would want an education system that worked that way?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  201. – particularly if concurrent with repeal, Congress enacts true reforms that re-enforce the current market for health-care insurance, and not destroy it.

    Yes. The only thing is, it can’t suddenly cost anybody more money.

    The whole subsidy argument that Senator Cruz echoed was contrived.

    But what is true is that Obamacare cannot simply be repealed.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  202. Dhar,

    Is there any reason you can think of that Democrats would want to shut down the government?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  203. None whatsoever. Why is the GOP doing it?

    Dhar (d05934)

  204. DRJ to Dhar:

    Is there any reason you can think of that Democrats would want to shut down the government?

    Political advantage, of course. And they won’t give back the baby to get the money.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  205. But what is true is that Obamacare cannot simply be repealed.
    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 9/29/2013 @ 1:22 pm

    Not today, but in the future with a political mandate from the voters, it can be.
    If not, then we will have British Health-care, a Soviet political class, a National-Socialist bureaucracy, and a Greek economy.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  206. None whatsoever. Why is the GOP doing it?

    They aren’t!
    What they are doing is conducting themselves according to the checks-and-balances proscribed by the Constitution, and availing themselves of the Constitutionally-mandated Power-of-the-Purse.
    It is the Executive who is conducting himself as a spoiled little child adamant on getting his own way regardless of the costs.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  207. Sammy thought of a reason, Dhar.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  208. To make it as onerous, that no one would dare challenge him again, remember who he was willing to hold hostage in the debt ceiling negotiations, the families of servicemen,

    narciso (3fec35)

  209. A Guide to the New Exchanges for Health Insurance – New York Times Sat. page B1 and B4

    What they want people to get is the “silver plan” The silver plan is where the “insurance” is supposed to pay 70% of average medical costs.

    In addition to the insurance people pay a deductible and co-payments. Platinum is 90%, gold is 80% bronze is 60%. Out of pocket costs cannot exceed $6,350 for an individual and $12,700 for a family of 2 to infinity.

    The subsidy is based on the difference between a sliding scale of 2% of income for people at 133% of poverty level – if your income as reported on your tax return drops too low you lose the subsidy – to 9.5% for those between 300% and 400% of poverty – the difference between that figure and the cost of the second cheapest silver plan available to you. If you are self employed you us ethe individual exchgange. If you have 1 employee you us ethe small business exchange. If you don’t have an employee and then you hire someone…whio knows. If you let your last employee go I guess I don’t know.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  210. Maybe you should expand your mind a little.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  211. My last comment was for Dhar.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  212. 211. The House passed a bill with no votes against paying servicemen in the event of shutdown but Harry Reid will of course pretend the bill does not exist.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  213. By the way, Dhar, what did you think of last night’s SNL opening skit?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  214. I’m guessing the folks at SNL are racist now, DRJ.

    You saw this, didn’t you?

    http://twitchy.com/2013/09/29/obama-cultism-did-actor-adam-baldwin-spot-the-creepiest-c-span-caller-ever/

    Um.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  215. Maybe you should expand your mind a little.

    How do you expand what does not exist?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  216. Iowahawk gives us this:

    You know who else accuses people of terrorism for not giving them stuff? 13-year old girls. #IHATEYOUIHATEYOUIHATEYOU #SLAM

    SPQR (61a935)

  217. 17 government shutdowns over budget disputes in history … 12 when Tip O’Neil ran the House (O’Neil was a Democrat Dhar).

    But its the GOP that are “terrorists”.

    That’s Democrat logic.

    SPQR (61a935)

  218. One of Tip O’Neil’s shutdowns was over his protest that the Fairness Doctrine had been repealed by the FCC.

    Tip O’Neil shutdown the government to protest freedom of speech – not a lack of freedom but too much.

    SPQR (61a935)

  219. Comment by SPQR (61a935) — 9/29/2013 @ 2:12 pm

    I’m sure he got great advice to do that from one of his top aides: Chris Matthews.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  220. Oh you meant historically, not now? Sorry I’m not up on my history of shutdowns besides the last set in the 90s.

    Dhar (d05934)

  221. Democrats’ ignorance of history means it didn’t happen. Democrat logic.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  222. I found the fact that Tip O’Neil shutdown government over the Fairness Doctrine especially interesting.

    GOP shuts down government to protest catastrophic damage to our economy of a Democrat centrepiece legislation.

    Democrats shut down government to protest too much freedom.

    There’s a contrast.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  223. Chad Pegram tweets:

    Protester Cathryn Carroll yells at Hse R’s on Senate steps “You weren’t elected. Obama was elected. Not you.”

    His tweet illustrates Democrat logic.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  224. the government shutdown will mostly just be a nice metaphor for failmerican decline I think

    but really beyond the metaphorical I can’t care much either way if they shut it down or not

    it’s silly to exempt military from the shutdown though – the vast majority of military people at this point willingly signed up to work for a fascist enterprise with highly uncertain financial prospects

    insulating people from the consequences of their bad decisions is how we got such grotesque distortions and malinvestment in our pitiful little country in the first place

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  225. Well the military does useful work, constitutionally mandated work,

    narciso (3fec35)

  226. 157. I’m not saying no Senator has ever made a decent President, I just don’t care to uncover an exception to the rule.

    Oh, JFK was a decent President, especially if you grade on the curve (Johnson, Nixon, Cater, Obama, etc).

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  227. Far more than just the military will stay at work through the shutdown.

    All of my friends in government service are told that they are “essential” and that they are to come to work – one writes regulations and the other administers compliance with procurement regulations – neither of which is “essential” to anyone with common sense.

    The “shutdown” is farce – with Obama ordering public parks and monuments closed while useless bureaucrats go to work.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  228. Even though both the sequester and the shutdown loom, Obama “found” $300 million to pledge for Detroit’s bailout.

    Even though no appropriation is made by Congress.

    Obama is the most lawless President in modern history.

    SPQR (1ec81f)

  229. the constitution didn’t mandate the Iraq fiasco or the Libyan embarrassment or the Afghanistan quagmire to say nothing of sprinkling a light dusting of splodey things on Syria

    all of these failed enterprises if you add them up cost a considerable amount of monies – a very considerable amount of monies, really – and did nothing in the end to enhance the stature of our little country which has in fact become an international laughingstock

    no I think people need to understand that signing up with an outfit run by fascist losers like food stamp with poor poor judgment is a Risky Proposition

    to say nothing of the arrogant pentagon piggies like petraeus who are still vociferously whining about the sequester

    when they’re not banging trashy chippies

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  230. and intelligent folks continue their vain attempts to educate and/or reason with m00nbat imbecile dhar.

    Why?

    Colonel Haiku (e98faf)

  231. SPQR–

    If Obama gets to choose, he will do stupid stuff like he did with the sequester, like shut down air traffic control or customs. He really does think he can fool all the people all the time.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  232. and intelligent folks continue their vain attempts to educate and/or reason with m00nbat imbecile dhar.

    Actually he’s just a troll, and like all trolls he is intentionally impervious to logic. His JOB is to be impervious to logic and to annoy and frustrate all who join in.

    A marginal personality if you ask me.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  233. Well if he only follows ThinkRegress, and Huffington, he may think shutdowns only began in 1995

    narciso (3fec35)

  234. I question whether the President is the most lawless president in modern history –
    I don’t think modernity has anything to do with it.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  235. Undoubtedly, the worst congress ever.

    mg (31009b)

  236. 153. …Is Tejas a ‘run-off’ state?

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 9/29/2013 @ 8:33 am

    Yes.

    http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G14/TX

    Texas
    Elections for Statewide offices and Congress
    Primary: Tuesday 4 March 2014
    Runoff: Tuesday 27 May 2014
    General Election: Tuesday 4 November 2014

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  237. Comment by mg (31009b) — 9/29/2013 @ 3:56 pm

    No, that distinction has been retired in perpetuity by the Radical Republican Congress elected in 1866.
    The one who Impeached, but did not remove, Andrew Johnson for having the temerity to follow the words of Abraham Lincoln in how to treat the South following the War.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  238. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rL7ak__MGyw

    Obama Goes Toe-To-Toe With Stephanopoulos On “Tax Increases”

    Unlike Georg Stephanopoulos I don’t desperately want to believe this guy.

    The lies are constant (note to daley; I am now using the word as he misunderestood it when applied to Romney, “without pause”). But I’ll highlight three.

    At approximately the 2 minute mark he lies about driving costs down. At approximately the 3:55 point he lies about how you’re a free rider if you don’t have health insurance and get hit by a bus.

    Hint: Businesses carry liability insurance for a reason, and I think it’s safe to say municipalities do too. Who do you think pays for your hospitalization if you get hit by a bus?

    At the five minute mark he starts lying about how his penalties aren’t taxes. Shortly before or perhaps at the same time his Solicitor General will argue that his penalties are taxes.

    This guy could read the dollar menu at Mickey D’s at the order point in the drive thru, then tell the press drones in the car each item would cost them ten bucks when he pulls up at the check out window, and they’d believe him.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  239. I am so sorry my graphic imagery upset some but suffice it to say we are living a Cultural and Political Porn Video so consider my actions consistent with the concept of Zeiteist

    Kevin M #235 — he sure can How else do you get away with golf all the time and all that money spent while closing the WH to tourists.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  240. Obama Goes Toe-To-Toe With Stephanopoulos On “Tax Increases”

    Ha! toe-to-toe his nose was in it… nose-to-nose his toes were in it.

    Colonel Haiku (6c1a90)

  241. Here is to show you how messed up we are as a society.

    The average smoker dies 10 years earlier than non-smoker.

    They pay more for health care and cigarettes.

    They save the Govt over $250,000 per person by dying earlier.

    Yet Obamacare treats them like pariahs while Gay men who get AIDS at crazy rates are not required to pay more for health care.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  242. Even though both the sequester and the shutdown loom, Obama “found” $300 million to pledge for Detroit’s bailout.

    Or don’t forget this little gem…

    frontpagemag.com, March 5, 2013: In the past few weeks, Americans have been subjected to a barrage of doomsday predictions regarding the disaster that would befall us should the sequester come to pass. Many were rightly incensed, then, that last Thursday, only one day before the “devastating” sequester cuts were scheduled to kick in, newly appointed Secretary of State John Kerry announced that the Obama administration will be giving $60 million to a group of Syrian rebels fighting Bashsar Assad.

    This hypocrisy was quickly followed up with an announcement on Sunday by Kerry that the administration will be giving Egypt’s increasingly anti-democratic Muslim Brotherhood government $250 million in return for promises of economic reform — which will rise to $1 billion if that reform is deemed successful

    ^ Not too ironic that just as Obama gave millions to a solar-panel company that soon went belly up (ie, Solyndra), he’s more recently given millions to a political organization that has since been outlawed and dismantled.

    Great record there, Barry.

    I am so sorry my graphic imagery upset some

    Personally, I think it was bluntly humorous, and I imagine the little quip from askeptic indicates he felt the same way.

    Mark (58ea35)

  243. obamacare would be much more better if it stuck it to gay people really really hard

    then there would’ve been something for everyone to like!

    Boehner should’ve put that in his resolution but he didn’t

    probably cause of he hates America

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  244. R.I.P. LC Greenwood, member of the Steel Curtain defense

    Icy (30cc9d)

  245. At least folks admit that the entire point is sabotage, not implementing it better.

    Comment by Dhar (d05934) — 9/28/2013 @ 1:19 pm

    What exactly is meant by “implementing it better”? Better than what?

    Gerald A (130406)

  246. It is not the Republican’s job to ‘fix’ Obamacare for the Democrats.

    luagha (1de9ec)

  247. KAYLEE: Shepherd Book said they was men who just… reached the edge of space, saw a vasty nothingness… and went bibbledy over it.

    JAYNE: Oh, hell. I’ve been to the edge. Just looked like more space.

    Neo (d1c681)

  248. Okay, so the government shuts down. Who thinks Obama or Reid will make a move to stop it as long as the public blames us? It isn’t as if they give a rip about America or anything else except their own power and winning the confrontation.

    How long can Republicans stand by and see military families cut off, honest contractors not paid so they can meet their own payrolls, etc.? How long would YOU?

    There was never a strategy here, it was wishful thinking by the seat of the pants.

    Reader Kevin M. is quite correct, the only thing that can save Democrats over the disaster which is Obama-Care is giving them excuses to blame us for it. Brilliant job, Senator Cruz!

    Estragon (19fa04)

  249. That comment made sense to you, Estragon?

    SPQR (768505)

  250. They’re gonna blame “us” for it if it doesn’t get implemented?

    Icy (30cc9d)

  251. Think it through Estragon.

    Essentially, we are talking about two strategies: “do nothing” or “fight ineffectively.” Both strategies are predicated on the idea that Obamacare will be a major disaster for the public.

    The “fight ineffectively” idea is a gambit. If rejected, then Obamacare is defunded. If accepted, then a clear choice is offered that will pay dividends when Obamacare melts: Republican = repeal, Democrats = Obamacare.
    Slogan: “Fight.”

    The “do nothing” idea is that when Obamacare melts health care, we don’t want our fingerprints on it so people will recognize that the Democrats are responsible and the Republicans did nothing.
    Slogan: “See, we told you and did nothing. Elect us.”

    Bad news, either way the Republicans are going to be blamed. If we do nothing, that is exactly what the Democrats will use, and worse, they will offer a “better solution.”

    People elect sincerity, heart, humor. They do not elect cardboard (if both candidates are cardboard, the slicker one wins). When the house burns, they do not look for the guy who says, “not my fault,” but rather the guy who rushed in with whatever he had available, even if it is a garden hose and then fights. That will be remembered. In some quarters, it will be ridiculed, but for those who were in that burning house, they will remember will great passion. That is how you win elections.

    Nuance, no-fingerprints, no-risk: straight arrows, that is how you lose elections.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  252. “It is not the Republican’s job to ‘fix’ Obamacare for the Democrats.”

    That’s clear. All professed republican wishes of bipartisanship aside, it seems republicans aren’t interested in making health reform better, but worse. See the Grassley amendment, for example. Did that get any republican support for the bill? No, on the contrary, it is a source of attacks on the bill!

    Dhar (d05934)

  253. Here’s a proposed “battle slogan”-

    Speaker Pelosi said they needed to pass ObamaCare so we could find out what was in it…
    they did,
    we did,
    and we don’t like it.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  254. Here’s my take on the Delay for Pay gambit:

    ObamaCare isn’t ready for a national roll-out, consequently Obama’s health care program would benefit from the one year delay Republicans are offering.

    Along with the delay comes a generous CR including lots of the unrestrained spending Democrats depend on coming into mid-term elections.

    The GOP is offering a sweet-heart deal, it’s a win-win, establishment Republicans get to smack down Conservatives again and to pretend they’ve won a courageous fight to protect Americans from the evils of socialized medicine, and Democrats get the time and money they need to put a happy face on ObamaCare, buy the next election, and stay in power and on-course for single-payer health care after they win the House in 2014, so why doesn’t Harry Reid just take the deal?

    Answer: He wants more. Reid knows he can get up from the table and walk away winners right now, which would be the smart political move.

    But that’s not good enough, not now, Reid smells blood and he’s got bigger fish to fry. He intends to crush the only real opposing political party, to split the GOP into irreconcilable factions and leave Democrats in control as the only inified national party with a few smaller ideological or regional parties barely hanging on around the margins which have little or no real influence in a virtual one-party state.

    It’s not personal, it’s just the core business of predatory monopoly politics: Big fish eat little fish and unless the GOP can unite quickly, they’re on the menu and Harry Reid’s

    ropelight (8b235a)

  255. coming to dinner.

    ropelight (8b235a)

  256. I give a like to Comment 256 by MD in Philly.

    nk (dbc370)

  257. “The GOP is offering a sweet-heart deal, it’s a win-win, establishment Republicans get to smack down Conservatives again and to pretend they’ve won a courageous fight to protect Americans from the evils of socialized medicine, and Democrats get the time and money they need to put a happy face on ObamaCare, buy the next election, and stay in power and on-course for single-payer health care after they win the House in 2014, so why doesn’t Harry Reid just take the deal?”

    If it’s win win, why don’t they pass two bills, one a delay, and one a CR? Why must they link the two?

    Dhar (d05934)

  258. To give the appearance they’re doing something besides their secretaries and interns.

    ropelight (8b235a)

  259. BTW, MD, would you be interested in maybe organizing a cabal of fathers with young daughters? http://i.imgur.com/pfMG2Fv.jpg

    nk (dbc370)

  260. The voices coming out of my dashboard are going nuts this morning at the prospect of a government shutdown. These are all people who think rap is culture and live culture is what you want in your Greek yogurt, and they don’t know whether to s**t or wait until Obama tells them to.

    nk (dbc370)

  261. Well, there’s always the fight over man-caused global warming, and the effort to Save the Polyester.

    ropelight (8b235a)

  262. nk- “Thank you for your support.”

    I think the repubs could make a list of people who don’t like ObamaCare who are getting it delayed or sweetheart deals (like Congress) and just say that the repubs want “the little guys” treated equally

    I think this was brought up before (I guess good ideas can get repeated), that I know someone whose father explicitly told his daughter’s first date, while cleaning his service revolver, that he would not hesitate going to jail for life if something ever happened to his daughter.
    The fellow was certain to be back with her in the driveway 15 minutes before dad’s curfew.

    Maybe I’ll have big bro the detective come by who is always carrying.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  263. Your son got promoted to detective? I’m not surprised, those doctor brains had to go somewhere, but the last time I remember you talking about him he was a patrolman. Congratulations.

    nk (dbc370)

  264. The New York Times had a big front page story about accidental shooting deaths of children. It said that the number is underestimated because many of them in many jurisdictions are classified as homicides (a homicide being when a death has resulted as a result of a violation of law, which can mean presumed negligence when it comes to children)

    http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/13/us/accidental-shootings-of-children-raising-concern.html

    It also said, as I read it, that more children are killed on purpose than unintentionally.

    They seemed to advocate keying a gun to an individual but that’s a mistake, as far as preventing this kind of thing is concerned. They said that small boys almost can’t resist pointing a gun and playing with it, and if you read the anecdotes, if a gun seems not to be loaded, they many times can’t resist “proving” it by aiming it directly at someone and seeing nothing happen.

    Now if a gun in their home, or all guns they knew were set up this way, they might assume all guns were and upon encountering a gun that was not, they might in play aim it at someone and pull the trigger.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  265. The Democratic strategy is to have the Republicans back down, but only a shutdown actually happens. Which might also scare the Republicans from trying not to raise the debt ceiling.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  266. FWIW, Democrats will cave and then take high road rhetorically claiming they gave in to Republicans. They know Obamacare is messed up right now and they certainly can use the time to fix the kinks.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5afc40)

  267. *only after a shutdown actually happens. gthat makes the Republican fight for no point.

    People have got to be actually clamoring at President Obama and individal Democats for modifications of the law for that to happen.

    They then can be attached (for quicker action) to must passed bills.

    Fight ineffectively is a good strategy, but only when not pressed too far. The thing is to make the point. The problem there actually is, the Republican Party has no idea what to do instead.

    Merely repealing the law is not a policy that will fly, and the only reason there’s unity on that is because it can’t happen. Postponement is more cautious, and keeps the issue open, and people can live with that, but the truth is, now you would need legislation extending all or most insurance policies to keep the status quo.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  268. 269. Comment by Rodney King’s Spirit (5afc40) — 9/30/2013 @ 6:41 am

    FWIW, Democrats will cave and then take high road rhetorically claiming they gave in to Republicans. They know Obamacare is messed up right now and they certainly can use the time to fix the kinks.

    No, tghey will not, especially if it looks like cavbing in. If some problems need immediate attention, like the software for the subsidies on the exchange making incorrect calculations (!) or the small business exchange not getting up and running, it can wait until january and Presdidnet Obama can try, as he has till now, to claim the right to make adminsitratively necessary changes.

    The big problem with Obamacare that they are really worried about is that people will not in fact sign up for the insurance, and a death spiral will be impending for future years, and maybe some insurance companies go out of the business, but the Democrats in Congress are certainly going to give Obama at least six months to try this out, and then they’ll try to make the changes as small as possible.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  269. nk- Thanks nk, yes, he made detective relatively early. it obviously is a good thing, but he was also a good patrolman who was liked by the people in his district- after he filled in for someone doing the walking presence in a local business district, some of the community asked the district chief to keep him in the post.

    back to the original topic, I wonder if they could do a CR that funds ObamaCare but only for 3 months or so, long enough that everyone sees the catastrophe it is but hopefully not long enough to destroy the private medical system
    and have the CR fund ALL of ObamaCare, waivers for all or none
    if it’s that good, put it in action,
    it it’s not, stop it for all

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  270. 270. Fixes for the middle class not gonna happen.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  271. 274. That’s where the money is, or was.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  272. Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 9/30/2013 @ 6:49 am

    I wonder if they could do a CR that funds ObamaCare but only for 3 months or so,

    Right now the senate has passed a bill that funds Obamacare (and everything else) for only 2 1/2 months.

    That’s the Senate bill!!

    The difference from your thought is that Obamacare isn’t funded for less of aperiod of time than everythuing else.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  273. Sorry: 1/2 months. Till mid-November. The House bill went one month further.

    It also abolished the medical devices tax that many Democrats want to repeal, and got rid of the contraception mandate.

    No continuing resolution on the table goes for an entire year and they never, or almost never, have.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  274. 251. “honest contractors”? You’re sticking with that? The NSA hit men mayhap?

    Don’t you get that the military is behind this civilian led coup d’ etat with moral support. And by military we mean those with skin in the game.

    Do you suppose we’ll all miss the junk mail stuffed in our boxes?

    What a sad, pitable effort.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  275. I mean 1 1/2 months. I think the House bill goes till mid-December.

    Yes, this could easily be put off until the next continuing resolution.

    I think House Speaker Boehner doesn’t want it pushed off till the next must pass bill because the next must pass bill is raising the debt ceiling (needed in late October or possibly Social Security checks might not go out November, although more likely Obama wouldn’t try that ploy since it’s avoidable)

    I don’t think he wanst to push the issue off because some House members want to attach this to the debt ceiling bill, and that’s REAL brinksmanship.

    Rep Raul Labrador said on Meet the Press he doesn’t because he wants to make the debt ceiling fight solely about money. But there are others.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  276. long enough that everyone sees the catastrophe it is but hopefully not long enough to destroy the private medical system
    and have the CR fund ALL of ObamaCare, waivers for all or none if it’s that good, put it in action, it it’s not, stop it for all

    The effect on the private medical system is pretty slow.

    What people should want is for Obamacare to fail financially, but not have a chance to affect the quality of medical care.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  277. See the Grassley amendment, for example. Did that get any republican support for the bill? No, on the contrary, it is a source of attacks on the bill!
    Comment by Dhar (d05934) — 9/30/2013 @ 4:23 am

    — And the list of those attacking the bill (I’ve heard a rumor that it’s become a law, by the by) includes WHO?

    Icy (5ef62d)

  278. Sammy wrote,

    They said that small boys almost can’t resist pointing a gun and playing with it,

    My father said that to me close to forty-five years ago. We were just sitting, watching TV and talking, and the whole time I was working the bolt and such on a parade rifle (DEWAT). My father said, “What is it with boys and guns? You haven’t let that thing out of your hands this whole time we’ve been sitting there.” My daughter’s eleven. I offered her a rifle and to teach her how to shoot it. She’s not interested. Yet.

    nk (dbc370)

  279. 280. “What people should want is for Obamacare to fail financially, but not have a chance to affect the quality of medical care.”

    Done and done. Try to keep up Sammy.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  280. It also said, as I read it, that more children are killed on purpose than unintentionally.

    Under eighteen is a child. Gang shootings. But take all these shooting statistics with a large grain of salt. Mayor Bloomeberg’s gun-nazis included the Boston Bombers in their lists of “victims of gun violence” — shocking, eh? Actually, they include the criminals who are shot in self-defense as “victims of gun violence”.

    nk (dbc370)

  281. Paul Ryan is not involved very much now publicly anyway in what’s going on because he knows where the House Republicans are now is all a wrong strategy that’s only in the interest of Democrats and some people on the sidelines of politics. It would be interstuing to find out what he thinks.

    Anyway, a better strategy, if Boehner can avoid this becoming part of the debt ceiling fight, would be to pass an almost clean continuing resolution using the Senate date of November 15 (which they chose because they think Boehner will need to get Dem votes and maybe they’ll be withheld unless he increases spending levels above the sequester)

    Pass it but amend the Senate bill to put in a little something just to make the point a continuing resolution doesn’t have to be clean – say legal authorization for a one year postponeent of the business mandate, which the House passed as a stand alone bill but Harry Reid wouldn’t take up, and, as with some other House bills, pretended didn’t exist. (The House also passed an one year postponement of the individual mandate, but as a separate bill)

    It would be hard for the Democrats to shut down the government (or rather keep it shut down) because they refused to put into legislation a policy they were in favor of, but claimed wasn’t necessary to write into law.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  282. 281. The Grassley amendment (which said members of Congress and their staff had to get their insurance from the exchanges) wasn’t intended to get support for the bill. It was actually a kind of a poison pill, (which other Senators found hard to justify a vote against) but it didn’t kill the bill.

    The Democrats figured they’d get rid of it in the conference committee, but there was no conference committee for the PPACA.

    There was a budget resolution to amend parts of the bill after it passed, but by the rules that could only affect financial things and this didn’t qualify (as I understand what I’ve read the past week or so)

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  283. ObamaCare looks a lot like ethnic cleansing. The cost of health insurance doubling and tripling while the number of doctors is declining at the same time baby boomers are aging (mid-60s) to the point they’ll require higher levels of professional care and treatment to maintain reasonably healthy active lives.

    Let Obama’s death panels ration access to health care according to Affirmative Action guidelines and white America won’t be around much longer to vote against Democrat vote buying schemes.

    ropelight (8b235a)

  284. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 9/30/2013 @ 7:20 am

    Mayor Bloomberg’s gun-nazis included the Boston Bombers in their lists of “victims of gun violence” — shocking, eh? Actually, they include the criminals who are shot in self-defense as “victims of gun violence”.

    Count everything, when you are trying to rack up numbers.

    It’s kind of justifible because if guns weren’t available anywhere, this wouldn’t happen.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  285. My father said, “What is it with boys and guns? You haven’t let that thing out of your hands this whole time we’ve been sitting there.”

    The power and influence of genetics. Or a dynamic that many on the left either resist, challenge or are willfully ignorant or selective about. That’s why they always embrace the idea of gun control instead of the idea of self-control.

    Decades of promoting the basic tenets of the “Great Society” and “war on poverty” have resulted in decades of dysfunction, and yet many liberals today do nothing but double down on stupid. So they promote things like open-gender bathrooms in grade schools and classroom textbooks that highlight the role of famous GLBT figures throughout history.

    Beautiful and compassionate.

    Mark (58ea35)

  286. It’s kind of justifible because if guns weren’t available anywhere, this wouldn’t happen.

    When I wasn’t quite sure what your ideological slant was previously, I’d assume that such a comment was made sarcastically.

    If DRJ reads this particular posting, now you understand why I’m interested in what fuels a person’s politics.

    Mark (58ea35)

  287. Comment by ropelight (8b235a) — 9/30/2013 @ 7:31 am

    Let Obama’s death panels ration access to health care according to Affirmative Action guidelines and white America won’t be around much longer to vote against Democrat vote buying schemes.

    I don’t think race has ever been a consideration in any kind of medical rationing, in fact when that comes up, as in transplant waiting lists, they probably tend to help a smaller portion of blacks than others, as the criteria usually is existing health, age and family support.

    But you can worry people will need help from their Congressman to get the medical help they need. Not the way Obamacare is set up now, of course. Right now it likes banking, where you don’t get political influence brought to bear to get any particular person a loan (if somebody like Rezko wants to help people they do it a different way, or abank, like Countrywide, helps important people pretty indicrinately, and not by that much)

    And certainly you don’t have, and haven’t had, except maybe in the most boss ruled conditions, any political influence brought to bear to prevent anyone from getting a loan.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  288. 290 SF: “It’s kind of justifible because if guns weren’t available anywhere, this wouldn’t happen.”

    Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 7:37 am

    When I wasn’t quite sure what your ideological slant was previously, I’d assume that such a comment was made sarcastically.

    It’s both true and sarcastic.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  289. You need to be fair to the people who compiled statistics that way, and they can rise or fall on it. I said it’s kind of fair.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  290. I can make a gun and self-contained ammunition for it, from scratch, from stuff available at any hardware store and grocery, in one day, Sammy. The propellant and primer drying will take the longest time. Others can make them too, and sell them. Guns will always be available. Anywhere.

    nk (dbc370)

  291. And, Mark, communists like guns as much as “conservatives”. Even more. “All power comes from the barrel of a gun”. — Mao Tse Tung. A person’s like or dislike of guns means … that he either likes or does not like guns.

    nk (dbc370)

  292. It’s both true and sarcastic.

    Sammy, I think if you were emotionally tied more into the latter than the former — or totally in simpatico with the latter instead of the former — you’d have phrased such a comment differently.

    Mark (58ea35)

  293. And, Mark, communists like guns as much as “conservatives”.

    nk, label them the ultimate — truly the pinnacle of — “limousine liberals.” It’s well known that the apparatchiks of communist societies of the past lived far better, and of today live much better, than the proletariat they were supposedly so concerned about.

    Mark (58ea35)

  294. Here’s part of the problem, another pre-existing condition of Healthcare in Amerikkka.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-30/half-us-population-only-accounts-29-healthcare-spending-1-responsible-214-all-expend

    Now, you want to dump another 10% of the population onto the mules backs today.

    Then as the demographic bulge enters decrepitude, make the baristas and deli clerks pay for the whole shebang with their inheritance, the part the government doesn’t steal.

    Seriously, I don’t know what you intend to fight with, bed pans?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  295. From Drew over at Ace’s:

    the reality is “Let it burn” is happening whether or not you want it to and whether or not anything comes of the CR/Debt Ceiling fights. Our financial and political DOOM is on auto-pilot at this point. Taking sides on an issue here or there doesn’t change that.

    “Why can’t we all just get along”? Because we can’t, that’s why.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  296. “It’s both true and sarcastic.”

    Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 7:56 am

    Sammy, I think if you were emotionally tied more into the latter than the former — or totally in simpatico with the latter instead of the former — you’d have phrased such a comment differently.

    I realized there was a reasonable explanation for that 0- also I don’t think it affects the statistics too much – maybe that’s wrong – and I was mostly trying to play it very straight.

    Not so much sarcastic.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  297. Drew at Ace:

    …if the Vitter amendment passes and congressional staffers are forced onto the ObamaCare exchanges, the self-dealing bastards in DC will find away to protect themselves while costing taxpayers more money. Swell

    The real cost, he quotes an explanation, is from the higher pensions they would get. Some will cut staff, of course.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  298. Metaphor alert are in a flat spin, a stall, dropping to earth, not spiraling with the nose down.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358763/price-politics-kevin-d-williamson

    Otherwise he’s spot on, as always.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  299. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/de-blasio-nicaragua-fling-article-1.1470142

    The one inaccuracy here is that DiBlasio’s trip to Cuba came in 1994, not 1990.

    He also supported Mugabe of Zimbabwe more recently – he eitehr met with him or supported some resolution about him – one of only 15 out 50 or so City Council members to do so, but he’s said that’s an error, since Mugabe does not have any supporters any more.

    Sammy Finkelman (514375)

  300. I would not call the Viet Cong who made this gun http://gsiep.blogspot.com/2013/09/wednesday-25-september-2013-part-three_25.html a limousine liberal, Mark. I don’t think the Viet Cong were being chauffeured through the jungle. Or that they were very concerned with LGBT rights. (But who knows, some may have swung that way?)

    Mark, you are way too easy to tease. And Firefox supports the link function on this form even less than IE.

    nk (dbc370)

  301. elissa’s break day one

    DO YOU EVER DREAM OF ME???? DO YOU EVER SEE THE LETTERS THAT I WRITE??????????????

    I hope you are having a nice day

    a day untrammeled by caustic politics and feckless bibble babbles occasioned by the decline of our once great country

    in real America rustling Fall is quietly settling over the land like an afghan on a couch potato what is just now starting on season one of HBO’s smash hit Game of Thrones

    in the kitchen one can hear the pleasant ding of the microwave letting you know that your tasty Hormel Rev Wrap is ready – but no hurry

    they take a minute to cool

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  302. 304. … And Firefox supports the link function on this form even less than IE.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 9/30/2013 @ 9:40 am

    I’m glad someone else noticed that.

    Speaking of noticing stuff, air cooled VW engines are getting scarce these day. I noticed that because I bought a Hobart MIG welder from Harbor Frieght for the sole reason it was on sale. And then it was like, great, I got a MIG welder what do I do with it. So I decided I’d weld up a sand rail and strap a couple of gun scabbards to it to rage around the hunting lease.

    But what engine do you put in it? VW engines used to be the “go to” sand rail engine, but now they’re like collector items. I have the parts lying around to build a wicked fast small block chevy but fitting one of those into a sand rail along with finding a tranny (no, Mark, not in the LGBT sense of the word) that will work skyrockets the costs like Obama’s energy policies.

    So, what’s the answer? Subaru flat four? Ford 2.3? Those are a dime a dozen, but has anyone actually mated them to a sand rail?

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  303. Mark,

    I think you confuse the American public’s willingness to be tolerant with an inclination to be liberal. I don’t think they are the same thing.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  304. Reader Kevin M. is quite correct, the only thing that can save Democrats over the disaster which is Obama-Care is giving them excuses to blame us for it. Brilliant job, Senator Cruz!

    I don’t have an issue with Cruz or his filibuster. I think it would be a mistake to delay Obamacare at this point, though (and in fact would accelerate it — such as the tax on the gold-plated union health plans).

    But there is nothing wrong with a good on-point rant to let people know that we are NOT OK with this disaster.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  305. I don’t understand the convoluted thinking that people have to engage in to blame Cruz for something.

    The Democrats were always going to blame the GOP for everything that would inevitably go wrong with Obamacare. That was the plan all along, just as the Democrats running Kali or Detroit blame the fact that somewhere in the world there are Republicans and blame them for the f***ed up nature of the places they’ve been running for the past 50 years.

    This is why the Democrats don’t actually want to destroy the GOP. They want it around to take the blame.

    Cruz didn’t do a damned thing wrong. He just reminded people Obamacare is an entirely Democratic party disaster.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  306. hunting leases are very 1%

    where i come from they’re really good places for to do networking with bankers and oil and gas people

    plus there’s like a kajillion armadillos unlike in Argentina (where they all get eated up)

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2013/04/30/roast-armadillo-%E2%80%93-a-recipe-for-extinction/

    It’s reassuring to know that Texas has this plenitudinous untapped source of foozle, especially given how rapidly the economy in America is declining.

    They should make armadillo a secret ingredient on Iron Chef and invite M’chelle Obama to judge. Armadillo meat is very lean and a great way to stretch your food stamps at the end of the month and use up any leftover queso fresco you have in the fridge.

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  307. In Tejas we use armadillo in chilli. Which is convenient because they have a bad habit of jumping straight up when they get scared.

    Which means even if you try to miss them with your car, they still kill themselves when you try to pass over them. It’s like the only way not to kill them when you come up on them in the road at night is to swerve one way or the other and drive into the trees or oncoming traffic.

    Or, chilli meat.

    I think it’s a no brainer. In every sense of the word.

    Plus the lean, healthy nature of armadillo meat is ideal for anyone prepping for the kumite in Hong Kong.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  308. yes yes plus it’s even more puissant than tiger blood

    you will roar like katy perry

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  309. As a compromise, I propose that in lieu of shutting down the government, we merely shut down the White House.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  310. “Oh my God, anything but making my staff sit home with nothing to do!

    I’ll be your kid’s standin Grandpa, I’ll tell him stories at bedtime and take him fishing.

    What can I do to stop the insanity, tell me please?”

    http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/325513-senate-gop-floats-one-week-stopgap

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  311. As a compromise, I propose that in lieu of shutting down the government, we merely shut down the White House.
    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 9/30/2013 @ 11:26 am

    — Like for tours and stuff?

    Icy (5ef62d)

  312. 312. yes yes plus it’s even more puissant than tiger blood

    you will roar like katy perry

    Comment by happyfeet (c60db2) — 9/30/2013 @ 11:18 am

    A guy I used to play rugby with in Japan owned an Izakaya. You couldn’t get tiger at his place. But if you called a day in advance he’d whip you up a turtle.

    The whole. Freaking. Turtle.

    Every single part was going into one of the courses. Shell, head, feet, everything. Including the blood, which was going into the sake.

    It was our private joke. I’d traditionally take a MAC/AMC flight to go to Alaska and go deer hunting. So I’m sitting their showing my bud the pictures. Inevitably someone else at the counter would break in with something like, “Hunting is breaking nature.”

    At which point my buddy would laugh and walk off. And I would say, “you’re f***ing drinking turtle blood, dude.” Or he just ate a lobster tail that was cut off a living lobster that crawled off the counter to die in the corner (it was tough to watch a Japanese cooking show because while the cook is telling you how to prepare a cut of meat from a particular crustacean you’re yelling at the screen, “kill the goddammed crab or whatever that thing is!).

    Anyway I’d point it out and the guy would look at his glass of turtle blood and say, “You know, I never thought about it but you’ve got a point.”

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  313. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 9/30/2013 @ 9:40 am

    And Firefox supports the link function on this form even less than IE

    Maybe it depends on other things. With Firefox I can post a link with a description appearing instead of the actual URL, and I can even switch windows to do it. With IE I would have to manually doi it, and although Milhous knows how to do it, I don’t have the kind of confidence to post a link taht way.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  314. Also the Japanese pioneered the concept of legalizing sex with teenagers decades before Kay Perry even though about singing about it.

    Therefore I’m offended that you brought up the obviously false Katy Perry aspect and demand an apology.

    It is a canard, sir, to suggest that Katy Perry is a factor in the tiger blood shortage!

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  315. Katy Perry is ALWAYS a factor

    in everything

    she permeates the entire continuum

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  316. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, Mr. Feets.

    I took you to say that Katy Perry was roaring, and that has something to do with the consumption of tiger blood, and I can’t effing find tiger blood, and therefore Katy Perry who I have no use for because I already knew about “teenaged dreams” before she began screeching about them was the reason I can’t find tiger blood.

    I can only find turtle blood. And there’s a waiting list even for that. You’ve got to call 24 in advance. Just for generic turtle, not something macho like Snapping Turtle.

    But if Katy Perry’s roarings have nothing to do with why I can’t find tiger blood, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  317. I’d wait 24 hours for Alligator Snapping Turtle. Who wouldn’t? I’d go down to the exotic car rent-a-car place and book a Lamborghini so I could drive my Victoria Secrets style paid escort in style to Alligator Snapping Turtle cocktail hour in style.

    But who’s going to wait 24 hours for Box Tortoise?

    Not me, Charlie.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  318. Katy Perry roars are fueled 100% by grrrrl power. Katy Perry 2.0 should be even more powerful and will probably come with sand rails.

    oh and also turtles are friends not food.

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  319. 321. I just saved a 25 pound snapper the other day. Sucker was just sitting in the middle of a two-lane highway with an attitude.

    Little did I know he was a delicacy.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  320. What engine does Katy put in her sand rails?

    Because for most people putting a liquid cooled engines into kit designed to take an air cooled engine complicates things beyond all get out.

    Maybe I’m missing something, Mr. Feets. I could build a 427 side oiler or a 351 Cleveland and never touch a Ford part. For example:

    http://www.dovemanufacturing.com/index.html

    http://www.chiheads.com.au/

    Mebbe I’m using the wrong search terms cuz I think a dual carb stinger-exhaust Vee-dub engined sand rail would be the s***. It would beat hell out of all the ATVs I see my fellow Texans towing to their leases.

    I’m all about the competition.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  321. 323. 321. I just saved a 25 pound snapper the other day. Sucker was just sitting in the middle of a two-lane highway with an attitude.

    Little did I know he was a delicacy.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 9/30/2013 @ 1:00 pm

    Cajuns have a recipe for everything. Ergo Sasquatch doesn’t exist.

    Because if Sasquatch existed, there’d be a recipe.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  322. 314. Seriously KY, a Japanese blow-up sex doll would be better regarded in the Senate than your gimp.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/325549-senate-democrats-reject-one-week-stopgap-to-avoid-shutdown

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  323. Seriously KY

    Just checking. Did you seriously mean to talk about KY?

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  324. 327. Yes, I did. McConnell floated an 11th hour week extension of CR2013 and it took minutes for Reid to reject.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  325. Ok, Barack Obama are apparently throwing down.

    They will not negotiate. So, being one of the extremists, I’ve just got one question for the Dems.

    If the only reason the government won’t be funded is because the Barack Obama insists doctors have to gather information about your sex life so he can put it on a federal database, how exactly are the Republicans the obstructionists?

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  326. 331. Now he’s demanding the Congressional parties sit down and negotiate.

    He didn’t issue the red line.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  327. *Ok, Barack Obama and the Democrats are apparently throwing down…*

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  328. “If the only reason the government won’t be funded is because the Barack Obama insists doctors have to gather information about your sex life so he can put it on a federal database, how exactly are the Republicans the obstructionists?”

    Because it’s the GOP that is conditioning their policy preferences on the 3 month continuing resolution at sequester levels.

    Dhar (d05934)

  329. Dhar, once again, you don’t know what you are talking about. Are you late reading your messaging memos?

    House Democrats say that they will accept sequestration levels of funding:
    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/09/30/house-dems-to-boehner-if-you-drop-the-obamacare-demands-and-pass-a-clean-cr-well-accept-sequestration-spending-levels/

    SPQR (768505)

  330. Why are your perversions a valid reason to derail the gub’mint, Dhar?

    I understand why an inadequate s***bird like you you would want to peek in on my sex life, Dhar, since I’m essentially living the letter to Penthouse you’ll never be capable of writing.

    But why throw a tantrum over it?

    Let it go. Don’t make your inadequacies a budget issue.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  331. Do you two enjoy arguing with a brick wall?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  332. askeptic, I am a brick wall.

    SPQR (768505)

  333. “House Democrats say that they will accept sequestration levels of funding:”

    Yes I know. We’re waiting for the GOP to accept it.

    “But why throw a tantrum over it?”

    I think it’s because the teanuts think Obama is the great satan or something because he passed Romneycare

    Dhar (d05934)

  334. Dhar writes:

    “If the only reason the government won’t be funded is because the Barack Obama insists doctors have to gather information about your sex life so he can put it on a federal database, how exactly are the Republicans the obstructionists?”

    Because it’s the GOP that is conditioning their policy preferences on the 3 month continuing resolution at sequester levels.

    And when I inform Dhar of the Democrats acceptance of sequestration levels, we get:

    “House Democrats say that they will accept sequestration levels of funding:”

    Yes I know. We’re waiting for the GOP to accept it.

    So we see that Dhar/imdw can’t keep the story straight for 37 whole minutes.

    SPQR (768505)

  335. Dhar, Obama did not pass “Romneycare”. That’s a lie.

    SPQR (768505)

  336. 328. That link, I think, just goes to the top of the thread, or the thread as a whole, not the comment, although there is a way to do that,

    My problem with doing it manually is just not having it down pat. (How it is supposed to look)

    That format needs to be memorized. And you have to be sure you know exactly what you can do.

    Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c)

  337. Buh bye, imdw dhar

    JD (5c1832)

  338. 327. Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 9/30/2013 @ 1:36 pm

    McConnell floated an 11th hour week extension of CR2013 and it took minutes for Reid to reject.

    Harry Reid and Democratic strategists want the shutdown.

    At a certain point, if and when he’ll decide the political negatives of continuing the shutdown are worse than the positives, he’ll take a super-short continuing resolution and/or something that funds the military and maybe some other things.

    Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c)

  339. If the government is shutdown, who will illegally disclose my confidential tax information and illegally refuse to answer FOIA requests at the IRS?

    http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2013reports/201330109fr.html

    SPQR (768505)

  340. Meanwhile, while the media play lap dog to the White House with horror stories about shutdown, Obama’s incompetent handling of our important operations continues:

    Incompetent security in Afghanistan, two dead – Marine Generals fired.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/two-marine-generals-fired-for-security-lapses-in-afghanistan/2013/09/30/b2ccb8a6-29fe-11e3-b139-029811dbb57f_story.html

    Incompetent security in Benghazi, four dead … crickets.

    SPQR (768505)

  341. 338. askeptic, I am a brick wall.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 9/30/2013 @ 4:23 pm

    I’m not built like a brick wall.

    Anymore.

    But my baby is built like a brick house.

    Gentlemen, I give you the Commodores.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rrBx6mAWYPU

    Umm hmm hmm! She’s mighty mighty.

    Steve57 (52f0df)

  342. “can’t keep the story straight for 37 whole minutes.”

    You haven’t yet noticed that the holdup isn’t the 3 month CR, but the conditions the GOP is attaching to it?

    Dhar (d05934)

  343. It’s a 2 1/2 month CR but the Senate reduced it to 1 1/2 months.

    Who is at fault depends on who you think is being unreasonable.

    Postponing Obamacare (which would still leave many problems caused by the PPACA) is not the default position.

    But notice Harry Reid is making the confrontation sharper. He’s refusing to exempt the military. He refused to try a one week CR. He deliberately left the House no time to make any countermoves before the shutdown.

    All because he thinks nobody will notice or the media won’t go into that detail. Everything is aimed at the audience.

    Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c)

  344. Dhar, why do you want a shutdown ? Do you really want to hurt government employees ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  345. “But notice Harry Reid is making the confrontation sharper. He’s refusing to exempt the military. He refused to try a one week CR. He deliberately left the House no time to make any countermoves before the shutdown. ”

    Why is that sharper? If a one week CR eases things, why not a 3 month or a 6 week one?

    Dhar (d05934)

  346. Dhar, what I noticed is that you say that the hold up condition is “X” when its not, and then when that’s pointed out, you pretend that you didn’t write it.

    You are incompetent. But then, for a Democrat, that’s pretty much expected.

    SPQR (768505)

  347. Dhar,

    We’re trying to protect government employees while you and Hairy Reed are trying to hurt them.
    Why do you hate government employees ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  348. “Dhar, what I noticed is that you say that the hold up condition is “X” when its not, and then when that’s pointed out, you pretend that you didn’t write it.”

    The hold-up is the House GOP insisting on tying a 3 month (or even lower) CR to destroying the Affordable Care Act. And that is causing a shutdown.

    Dhar (d05934)

  349. Elephant Stone, Dhar is busy trying to read his talking points correctly … which he can’t seem to do.

    SPQR (768505)

  350. “We’re trying to protect government employees while you and Hairy Reed are trying to hurt them.”

    Hey you know when you put it that way… I just realize we are ruled by morons.

    Dhar (d05934)

  351. I wonder why the Senate won’t act on a real budget instead of subjecting us to these interminable CRs? thought someone while whistling quietly.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  352. “I wonder why the Senate won’t act on a real budget instead of subjecting us to these interminable CRs? thought someone while whistling quietly.”

    The senate passed a budget in March. The GOP refuses to go to the next step in the budget proceeding. Probably because they want this CR business.

    Dhar (d05934)

  353. Dhar,

    What will you for work while the government is shut down ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  354. Somehow, I’m sure Mitt Romney is at least partially to blame for all of this !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  355. SF: “But notice Harry Reid is making the confrontation sharper. He’s refusing to exempt the military. [He did today. I wonder how his hand was forced] He refused to try a one week CR. He deliberately left the House no time to make any countermoves before the shutdown. ”

    Comment by Dhar (d05934) — 9/30/2013 @ 5:35 pm

    Why is that sharper? If a one week CR eases things, why not a 3 month or a 6 week one?

    It’s sharper because there’s hope the House will quickly pass a 1 week “clean” CR, but they are clearly not ready yet to pass a 46 day one. (or the Speaker, who controls the floor, unless there is a massive bipartisan rebellion, isn’t ready to bring it up for a vote when more than 50% of House Republicans will not vote for it)

    Note: The House bill is actually 76 days, till Sunday December 15, almost 11 full weeks, 2 1/2 months, but the Senate reduced it to 46 days, till Friday November 15, 6 weeks and 4 days, but effectively seven weeks, since the other 3 days are a Saturday, a Sunday, and today, or alternatively, seven weeks from now, Monday.

    Sammy Finkelman (c8f489)

  356. “It’s sharper because there’s hope the House will quickly pass a 1 week “clean” CR, but they are clearly not ready yet to pass a 46 day one. (or the Speaker, who controls the floor, unless there is a massive bipartisan rebellion, isn’t ready to bring it up for a vote when more than 50% of House Republicans will not vote for it)”

    That’s the speaker making it sharper.

    Dhar (d05934)

  357. The Speaker may be helping create the situation in the first place (by avoiding bills that pass with less than 50% of House Republicans voting for it – the so-called Hastert rule, which is actually responsible for the deadlock on Capitol Hill *) but he’s not making it sharper or starker.

    * I think Pelosi had the same policy, even worse.

    The partisanship is not just because many members come from gerrymandered districts, it’s because the natural majority of the House of represenatives this Congress, which is aa minority of Republicans, up to about 45% combined with a small to large majority of Democrats, isn’t able to pass bills.

    Sammy Finkelman (c8f489)

  358. That’s all great and good, dhar, but spending bills have to originate in the House. Even the President can’t stop that.

    That’s why I said “act.”

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  359. Buh bye, imdw

    JD (b4bff3)

  360. And Dhar still can’t figure out what his talking points are.

    Hilarious troll.

    SPQR (768505)

  361. I would not call the Viet Cong who made this gun a limousine liberal, Mark. I don’t think the Viet Cong were being chauffeured through the jungle. Or that they were very concerned with LGBT rights. (But who knows, some may have swung that way?)

    nk, I hit my head against the wall because after the millions of times I’ve posted — and re-posted (ad infinitum) — about the oddly phony-baloney nature of the supposedly do-gooder, egalitarian, compassionate ethos that underlies leftism, you didn’t get the connection (albeit sarcastic—but not too much) between the Viet Cong and their likely being guilty (in a variety of ways) of the phenomenon of do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do. Of course, I’m assuming the Viet Cong fancied itself as the heroic, put-upon proletariat (sort of a more violent version of the Occupy Wall Street crowd) fighting the good fight against greedy capitalists, the gentry class and their comfortable lifestyles.

    BTW, since you mention GLBT, would most people be surprised to learn — since even anti-fascist historians tend to sidestep this facet of history — that Adolph Hitler apparently was fully, totally, undeniably homosexual? Not sure if that fact has been swept under the carpet for decades since it perhaps creates awkward reactions in both liberals and ultra-conservatives.

    Mark (58ea35)

  362. Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 7:58 pm

    I’m assuming the Viet Cong fancied itself as the heroic, put-upon proletariat

    Certainly not. They knew they were evil people, or, like some members of the Mafia, people who couldn’t leave a bad organization – living in a place where it wouldn’t be agood idea anyway, because there was no more ordinary life.

    fighting the good fight against greedy capitalists, the gentry class and their comfortable lifestyles.

    Not even colonialism, but capitalists?

    The Voetcong anyway were not an independent organization, and they disapeared after 1969, when they were pretty much wiped out by the U.S. military. There was no more Vietcong in 1975. They were simply part of the North Vietnamese military.

    Sammy Finkelman (8423d6)

  363. Adolph Hitler apparently was fully, totally, undeniably homosexual?

    I don’t know if anybody knows what he was, but he most likely had a different paraphilia, and he associated with a few women who could tolerate him – he may have killed his cousin when she wanted to leave him in 1931.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geli_Raubal

    Certainly wasn’t “fully homosexual” although he used them, and had a whole army of them or something, the S.A, which was led by one anyway, till he decided to kill them all in 1934, maybe because he didn’t trust them, because he wasn’t one of them.

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007885

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

    Not sure if that fact has been swept under the carpet for decades since it perhaps creates awkward reactions in both liberals and ultra-conservatives.

    Sammy Finkelman (8423d6)

  364. WTF?!?!

    JD (9ec12f)

  365. They knew they were evil people

    Sammy, if a variety of ultra-liberals do see themselves that way, then I accept your point.

    In a way, if political extremists, particularly those on the left, at least didn’t delude themselves into believing they’re on the side of goodness, compassion and humaneness, I’d be a bit less — just a bit — disgusted by them.

    I’ve increasingly come to realize that ruthless, diabolical or extremely unethical or dishonest people can be made far worse when they fall for the notion that a do-gooder philosophy (eg, socialism/communism) or a perversely righteous theology (eg, Islamism) is fueling their emotions.

    en.wikipedia.or: A creature of the Northern regime, the overall Viet Cong structure was made up of three parts:

    The Southern Communist Party – the PRP, controlled the VC effort on behalf of Hanoi’s Lao Dong party. Hanoi coordinated its direction through the COSVN, Central Office for South Vietnam.

    The NLF- National Liberation Front, a collection of groups, and sympathizers opposed to the Diem government and its successors or sympathizing with the communist cause. Some groups were deliberately created fronts of the PRP, or were taken over and manipulated. Others were loosely affiliated supporters or well-wishers.

    The Liberation Armed Forces – the armed, military wing of the Viet Cong which carried out military operations

    Mark (58ea35)

  366. SF: They knew they were evil people

    Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 8:47 pm

    Sammy, if a variety of ultra-liberals do see themselves that way, then I accept your point.

    They claimed, as a core element of their propaganda, to be helping people, but they knew very well they were not. That’s not any kind of liberal.

    In a way, if political extremists, particularly those on the left, at least didn’t delude themselves into believing they’re on the side of goodness, compassion and humaneness,

    People inside that machinery, don’t, and can’t, delude themselves that way. Only “useful idiots” maybe could be deluded that way.

    I think there’s a whole lot less idealism going around than some people think.

    I’d be a bit less — just a bit — disgusted by them.

    If you’d be less disgusted, then you agree with me it’s not like that. You would be right to be less disgusted, if it were so.

    I’ve increasingly come to realize that ruthless, diabolical or extremely unethical or dishonest people can be made far worse when they fall for the notion that a do-gooder philosophy (eg, socialism/communism) or a perversely righteous theology (eg, Islamism) is fueling their emotions.

    What I don’t think is that people who are ruthless, diabolical or extremely unethical or dishonest can be fueled by that. Maybe theology can do that a bit – but I don’t think Osama bin Laden sincerely believed he was doing what God wanted. I don’t think the rulers of Iran do.

    Sammy Finkelman (8423d6)

  367. en.wikipedia.or: A creature of the Northern regime,

    There you have it right there. There wa sno Vietcong with any independent motivation, idealistic do-gooderism or otherwise. It was “a
    creature of the Northern regime.”

    There’s no more self-belief they are doing good than there is in the Mafia or the Zetas.

    Sammy Finkelman (8423d6)

  368. 370. Sorry, JD, the end of 369 was a quote from Mark referring to the idea that the German tyrant aand murderer was a homosexual, that I didn’t delete.

    The S.A. of course was not and could not have bene composed only of homosexuals, but there were a lot in its top leadership, apparently, so yes, sort of an army of homosexuals.

    Sammy Finkelman (8423d6)

  369. I don’t know if anybody knows what he was

    Based on a very vague awareness of history, that’s what I assumed until not long ago.

    It’s sort of an interesting parallel to information that I’ve also been made aware of recently (eg, an op-ed essay published in the LA Times). Documentation that Franklin D Roosevelt was a surprisingly — astonishingly — bigoted person behind closed doors. That he supported quotas against Jews, mused that Jews deserved some blame for the hatred aimed at them in pre-Third-Reich Germany, embraced anti-miscegenation attitudes (ie, deemed that white/Asian couples would have objectionable offspring), and never publicly congratulated black Olympic track star Jesse Owens (which even Hitler at least made a token effort to do).

    breitbart.com, May 2013: There is new evidence that Adolph Hitler was gay. Doctors who treated Hitler were interviewed by the U.S. Army after World War II, and the notes from those interviews have now been made public.

    Army interrogator Herman Merl, who was a medical technician who interviewed Hitler’s doctors, Karl Brandt and Hitler’s primary physician, Theodor Morell, wrote “Homosex” in the space provided for Hitler’s sexuality. The doctors told Merl that Hitler did not sleep with girlfriend Eva Braun in her bedroom, and he himself received female hormones. Merl wrote, “Eva Braun = separate rooms” and “female hormone – injection 50,000 units.” He added, “His sexual life and intercourse with Eva Braun was told to me.”

    This documentary makes a powerful case in backing up the report posted at breitbart.com:

    Was Hitler Homosexual? – The Hidden Fuhrer: Debating the Enigma

    Two major figures of WWII — one German, one American (and a hero to the left) — whose true nature in private has never been exposed until rather recently.

    Mark (58ea35)

  370. Maybe theology can do that a bit

    Sammy, when I see you draw conclusions like that — incomplete or filtered ones — that’s when I can tell what animates you ideologically. IOW, you have no trouble ascribing religious motivations to the reason why people become corrupt or extremist, but you sidestep the way that political/ideological ones (eg, the holy altar of 21st century secularism) do pretty much the same thing.

    Mark (58ea35)

  371. There’s no more self-belief they are doing good than there is in the Mafia or the Zetas.

    I don’t get that analogy. The Mafia (or its Mexican counterpart) exists in order to grab personal wealth and power, no more, no less. I don’t believe such crime outfits have even a tiny slice of their existence devoted to do-gooderdism or helping the common man. Contrast that with ruthless Mao or tyrannical Castro, who supposedly love the idea of looking out for people’s justice and well-being.

    Mark (58ea35)

  372. 375. Most of the comments on that YouTube video seem to disagree with the premise.

    The dictator was getting all kinds of junk dispensed the last year of his life.. Female hormones could have been somebody’s idea of lowering his sex drive because Eva Braun did not like what he did. The doctor may just have assigned him into that category because if it is not one thing it was supposed to be the other. But it is not like that. There seem to be some unclear hints of what he did.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  373. Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 9:26 pm

    The Mafia (or its Mexican counterpart) exists in order to grab personal wealth and power, no more, no less. I don’t believe such crime outfits have even a tiny slice of their existence devoted to do-gooderdism or helping the common man.

    They usually don’t have that as cover, but a few criminal gangs do, like the FARC in Colombia.

    You know that Teng Hsiao Ping (as he was spelled then) said once it was just simply a gang? (like he was revealing a secret)

    Contrast that with ruthless Mao or tyrannical Castro, who supposedly love the idea of looking out for people’s justice and well-being.

    Do you think Castro is completely stupid that he doesn’t know what he is doing? Mao was a great liar. Why would you think he was telling the truth in any way about wanting to help people? Especially when he obviously was not doing that?

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  374. Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 9:17 pm

    IOW, you have no trouble ascribing religious motivations to the reason why people become corrupt or extremist,

    Religion, since it deals with questions of right and wrong, might contain also some justification for doing cruel things, but then it is fairly open, and admitted, and justifying that genuinely is only consistent wih some sort of “religious” motivation..

    but you sidestep the way that political/ideological ones (eg, the holy altar of 21st century secularism) do pretty much the same thing.

    Secularism doesn’t do that by itself. Secularism makes people amoral, maybe, but not convinced that wrong is right.

    It takes a false idol to do that. Believing that what is wrong, even horribly wrong, is right, is actually a rather religious idea. A secular philosophy can indeed include that, but it is not necessary for it to work, and you can’t connecct the cruelty to a higher cause without some kind of a religious basis I think. You can say it is ahorrible thing for any person to believe or not believe or do something or other and anything is justified to stop it because X, Y or Z is the most important thing in the world but you cannot say I want to help people and anything is justified.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  375. Most of the comments on that YouTube video seem to disagree with the premise.

    Instead of first mentioning the report at breitbart or describing the documentary posted at Youtube in its entirety (btw, it’s over an hour long), you choose to focus on comments in a message board?!

    The interesting question is what would make people hesitant or uncomfortable about saying that Adolph Hitler was homosexual? Is it because homosexuality is so peculiar or off-putting that various people feel resistant about associating such behavior even with a bloody, ruthless, infamous figure like Hitler? Or is it because those with a pro-GLBT agenda don’t want the image of Hitler tarnishing anything attached to their cause and existence?

    Do you think Castro is completely stupid that he doesn’t know what he is doing?

    The point, Sammy, was that characters like Castro embraced the idea of leftism and being a leftist. They didn’t choose to go far right. They chose to go far left. Why? Or if leftism originates from a good place in a person’s soul, then isn’t it truly ironic that bloody, ruthless people have latched onto that side of the political spectrum.

    BTW, I’ve often mused that if liberalism inculcates good, humane, generous qualities in humans, then how does one square that with the violent, rowdy, even inhuman aspects of cities like overwhelmingly liberal/leftwing Detroit?

    Mark (58ea35)

  376. Maybe because where Rohm and Hitler liked to stick their peepees — boys, girls, teddy bears, whatever — is completely eclipsed by the magnitude of the evil that was the Third Reich?

    nk (dbc370)

  377. It takes a false idol to do that.

    There are false idols in both the religious and secular world. A desire to genuflect before some figure — either a historical or mythical one — seems to be encoded in many humans.

    For example, during the 1960s, quite a few people (mainly of left-leaning orientation) had pictures of JFK hanging on their walls. Decades later, that individual evokes warm and gooey feelings in a variety of Americans, perhaps regardless of all that has since come out about him.

    Believing that what is wrong, even horribly wrong, is right, is actually a rather religious idea. A secular philosophy can indeed include that, but it is not necessary for it to work

    If such a belief is not necessary in the world of secularism (eg, secular humanism) in order for it to work, then why it is somehow quite necessary (or necessary at all) in the world of religion in order for it to work?

    Mark (58ea35)

  378. is completely eclipsed by the magnitude of the evil that was the Third Reich?

    But that doesn’t explain why at least certain people are resistant to the idea that Hitler was homosexual. Sure, some folks may believe that profiling the details of a major figurehead’s personal behavior trivializes the subject of that person. But that doesn’t explain why such folks therefore would feel resentful that such details probably are legitimate and true.

    Mark (58ea35)

  379. “Believing that what is wrong, even horribly wrong, is right, is actually a rather religious idea. A secular philosophy can indeed include that, but it is not necessary for it to work.”

    Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 10:20 pm

    If such a belief is not necessary in the world of secularism (eg, secular humanism) in order for it to work, then why it is somehow quite necessary (or necessary at all) in the world of religion in order for it to work?

    Because the core idea of religion, or religious activism, is doing the right thing, being moral.
    By working, I mean someone having an honest belief that he is doing the right thing when he most evidently is not. Secularism doesn”t contain the belief that everything you do should be moral.

    Now actually, religion can be a cover and shield for doing wrong, and you can have religious authorities , like renaissance Popes or leaders of Scientology, who don’t believe anything they say.

    And you can have people who don’t believe everything they aare doing is moral or upright.

    The thing is you were saying people do things all people ordinarily would regard as wrong or horribly wrong out of honest zeal.

    I don’t think so, but where such exists it can only be religiously or quasi-religiously motivated.

    Or somebody accepts some person or body as a de facto infallible source of right and wrong. (if it was de jure – it would be religion)

    Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 10:20 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  380. It is not true. If someone came along like that, I think there would no problem with saying it.

    People are very interested in what the truth is here. That is not what Hitler’s evil was about. It wasn’t part of the picture – it doesn’t belong. Hitler was a vegetarian and a health nut. That does belong. He was a vegetarian because he was a health nut (about himself anyway) He also was against smoking but only cared if the SS snoked, or he received second hand smoke himself (which didn’t have such a fancy them there then).

    Now Beria, head fof the soviet secret police during Stalin’s later years in power from about 1940), he was a pedophile (with little girls) And you can say that, without saying that was the principle thing wrong with him. Or that it had much to do with anything except he needed to keep secrets. It would be the worst thing you could say (if true) about most other people, but it wasn’t about him. In fact, it could be a diversion.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  381. Because the core idea of religion, or religious activism, is doing the right thing, being moral.

    And the core idea of liberalism, or leftist activism, is doing the compassionate thing, being tolerant.

    Oops. Sometimes the moral code of liberalism isn’t practiced by its adherents. It’s sometimes even smashed to smithereens. And, yea, that irony (or contradiction) also is evident in the way the moral code of religiosity or the code of conservatism (which I define as a respect of common sense) is sometimes treated by its devotees. But I never denied the reality of the latter.

    Mark (58ea35)

  382. that hot air place is brokened it don’t got no quotes

    now I’m just gonna have to get my quotes on the street goddamn it gittin hard out here for a pikachu

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  383. That is not what Hitler’s evil was about

    You think a scrutiny of Hitler’s homosexuality is an attempt by a serious historian (or historians) to somehow draw a connection between that and his ruthless, evil, bloody behavior? I’d say that only a variety of liberal, pro-GLBT activists would have that suspicion.

    BTW, between the reports of Hitler’s own doctors and the evidence gathered by the historian in the documentary linked above, I’d say that only a fool or naif would conclude that one of the most infamous figures in the 20th century was not homosexual.

    Mark (58ea35)

  384. Oh bullshit Mark

    SPQR (768505)

  385. hitler on the down low i know i know

    it’s serious

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  386. Its nonsense. Hitler’s preoccupation with young girls is well documented.

    SPQR (768505)

  387. SF: “Do you think Castro is completely stupid that he doesn’t know what he is doing? ‘

    Comment by Mark (58ea35) — 9/30/2013 @ 10:11 pm

    The point, Sammy, was that characters like Castro embraced the idea of leftism and being a leftist. They didn’t choose to go far right.

    Because something else wouldn’t work as well!

    He didn’t start out by embracing Commuunism. He wrote a letter to FDR asking for $10. (because he had never seen a $10 bill, so he would like it, you know, just for its numismatic interest) And if that’s not a reason, well he tells him he knows where iron mines are located in Cuba. He waited until the day after Franklin Delano Roosevelt had been safely re-elected to a third term (no point in writing to a lame duck) It may be he coulkdn’t scrounge up the postage for a few weeks.

    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2009/09/my-good-friend-roosvelt.html

    Castro became a Communist because he asked himself: What kind of a dictatorship has the least chance of being overthrown? And he answered himself: a Communist dictatorship! And that’s the only reason, I think, he became aor revealed himself ass a Communist. He was actually quite on friendly terms with genalissimo Francisco Franco of Spain.

    They chose to go far left. Why?

    Their dictatorships tended to be longer lasting. In fact they had never been overthorwn.

    In fact, Castro’s still there now, after 54 years, although hes 85% retired – or maybe actually now in a coma.

    Or if leftism originates from a good place in a person’s soul,

    It doesn’t. Leftism is dogmatism, not righteousness.

    then isn’t it truly ironic that bloody, ruthless people have latched onto that side of the political spectrum.

    No, because they only latch on to things that are not true. Some unreasonable belief. So that there will not be much competition for the leadership. Not from honest people, anyway.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  388. BTW, I’ve often mused that if liberalism inculcates good, humane, generous qualities in humans, then how does one square that with the violent, rowdy, even inhuman aspects of cities like overwhelmingly liberal/leftwing Detroit?

    Leftism twists right and wrong. In Detroit it opposed punishment for crime. Leftism was and is only held by the intellectuals. They got votes from people who didn’t understand what they think and/or lied to them about lots of things. Some self-interest too was involved.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  389. 389. No whatever your point of view on homosexuality it would be perceived the same way.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  390. It’s more the first choice in 381 than the second.

    I pointed out the comments on the YouTube video to show people were not convinced. There’s nothing to indicate that. There is something to indicate he was odd in some way. I don’t know if anybody knows what. People who knew didn’t say exactly. It did involve only women, no men. Absence of A (complete standard normality) does not mean B. Paraphilia is the key word.

    Sammy Finkelman (66a8bd)

  391. IT’S THE GREAT PUNKIN MR. FINKELMAN!

    http://vimeo.com/52484438

    Dear Great Punkin please to bring back the United States government

    …we can’t let Americans get discouraged cause of more people believe in Santa Claus than believe in our sad pitiful declining fetid whore of a country

    this is me on piano

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  392. Its nonsense. Hitler’s preoccupation with young girls is well documented.

    SPQR, I hope you’re being sardonic, because the evidence appears to be pretty much a slam dunk that Hitler was homosexual. In the documentary posted to Youtube, when the one historian (who’s gay) says that evidence about Hitler’s sexuality is lacking or too limited to allow any conclusion to be reached, I think of the saying “and other than THAT, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?”

    Why people are bothered about or resistant to the reality of Hitler being a homosexual makes for an interesting Rorschach test.

    People who knew didn’t say exactly. It did involve only women, no men.

    Sammy, er, uh, Hitler’s own personal doctor didn’t say exactly?

    I wasn’t sure if your tendency to argue a point that flies in the face of reality was due to some socio-political biases on your part. Now I’m not sure if there’s something far more serious behind your desire to grapple with logic and come to a contradictory conclusion.

    Leftism was and is only held by the intellectuals.

    I use “leftism” somewhat interchangeably with “liberalism,” and some people’s perceptions of what those two words mean and how they manifest may be very different. I’ll just say that surveys that indicate higher percentages of liberals compared with conservatives are less generous in donating time and money to charitable activity is another clincher for me that points to left-leaning biases as not necessarily coming from a good place in a person’s heart. Again, the Number One example of that is the city of Detroit, Michigan (et al).

    Mark (58ea35)

  393. Mark, you are in danger of becoming Sammy F Electric Bugaloo II.

    SPQR (768505)

  394. SPQR, this thread is just about fully tapped out and now very much OT. I mean going from the issue of “defunding” to the topic of Hitler’s homosexuality is the ultimate in a detour. Still, your appearing to be indignant about the claim that the Third Reich’s infamous leader was gay is puzzling to me.

    Mark (58ea35)


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