Patterico's Pontifications

7/17/2013

SEK: The Fact Zimmerman Called 911 on Many Black People Proves He Racially Profiled Trayvon Martin; Or, Why Zimmerman Is a Man-Hating Feminist

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:20 pm



This evening I am taking the liberty of reprinting a post by Scott Eric Kaufman at Lawyers, Guns, and Money, and tweaking it just slightly to make a point about the clear sexism of George Zimmerman. The following is Scott’s post, word for word, with only very slight emendations: I have bolded certain words for emphasis, and struck out some words or phrases (relating to race) and added my own immediately after (relating to gender — it will be clear from context what added words and phrases are mine).

With my changes, Scott’s post becomes a powerful indictment of Zimmerman’s radical man-hating feminism, as clearly and indisputably evidenced by Zimmerman’s repeated 911 calls complaining about men — and virtually only men!!! — whom he found “suspicious.” Enjoy:

Your black male best friend isn’t an “Unfamiliar Black Male
July 17, 2013 | Fake SEK

I’m getting more than a little annoyed with the self-righteous proclamations of conservatives radical man-hating feminists that George Zimmerman’s been proven innocent of profiling by virtue of his acquittal on charges of manslaughter and murder. The evidence all points to Zimmerman becoming increasingly obsessed with the presence of black males at his apartment complex in the months leading up to Trayvon Martin’s death. Prior to April 2011, Zimmerman’s 911 calls were the work of the neighborhood busybody. For example, he called to report:

12 August 2004: “a male in a green Ford pickup”
20 August 2004: “an open garage door”
27 April 2005: another “open garage door”
17 March 2005: “pothole that is blocking the road”
21 September 2005: “a stray dog”
10 June 2009: “fire alarm going off”
7 September 2009: another “pothole in the road”
22 September 2009: “yellow bike … doing wheelies”

But starting in August of 2011, Zimmerman’s calls took on a decidedly different note. He reported:

3 August 2011: “[a] black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts,” who he “believes … is involved in recent [burglaries]“
6 August 2011: “two black males … in their teens”
23 September 2011: yet another “open garage door,” but specifies reason for calling is “neighborhood watch [meeting] last night”
1 October 2011: “two black males … 20 – 30 [years old] in Chevy [possibly] Impala at the gate of the community,” about whom Zimmerman’s concerned because he “does not recognize [the subjects] or [vehicle] and is concerned due to recent burglaries”
29 January 2012: children “running and playing in the street”
2 February 2012: “black male last seen wearing] black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants [who] keeps going to [the same] location”

And then on 26 February 2012 he calls about Trayvon Martin. There’s a pattern here obvious to anyone without an investment in not seeing it. What began as annoying 911 operators with pointless complaints escalated to notifying the authorities any time he saw a black male he didn’t know. The argument that he’s not racist sexist and wasn’t profiling is based on the fact that he “mentored black male children” and “had black male friends” and is entirely beside the point, because it presumes that he’s an overt and deliberate racist sexist. Those who make it claim victory when they demonstrate that he never wore a white hood “I hate men” T-shirt or bedecked his body in Nazi radical feminist ink.

I’ll grant that that Zimmerman didn’t pine for the days of short ropes and sturdy limbs doesn’t pine for the day when men are not necessary.

I’ll grant that he didn’t dream of goose-stepping down the Champs-Élysées in his dress browns ordering women onto lifeboats on the Titanic while telling men to enjoy their drowning deaths.

But I won’t grant that race gender didn’t color his judgment when it came to young black men with whom he wasn’t personally acquainted. From 3 August 2011 forward he’s increasingly — and almost exclusively — concerned with unfamiliar black males in his apartment complex. Maybe confirmation bias is more the problem here than racism sexism, but the fact remains that the bias being confirmed is that young black males are suspects until proven otherwise. You can’t look at the 911 calls in the months immediately prior to the shooting and argue otherwise. (At least not honestly.) He transformed from a harmless nudnik into someone very concerned with the presence of unfamiliar black males, which at the very least means that by 11 August 2011 his worldview contained the category “Unfamiliar Black Male” and that the presence of people belonging to it warranted calling 911.

That’s indisputable.

Whether he volunteered the race gender of Trayvon Martin to the 911 dispatcher or responded to a question about it is immaterial. As evidenced by previous calls, this one was triggered by the presence of an “Unfamiliar Black Male.” And as the escalation of 911 calls indicates, he was becoming increasingly frustrated with the presence of people belonging to this category. Because, in his words, “These assholes always get away.” You can argue that he’s simply referring to generic burglars of an undetermined and irrelevant race gender, but doing so requires ignoring the larger context of Zimmerman’s recent 911 calls in which all the subjects were of a determined and relevant race gender.

But if you want to make that claim in order to win an argument with someone on the Internet, by all means, please tell me about call from 2007 in which he reported seeing two Hispanic males with a “slim jim,” call from 2010 in which he reported seeing a blue jeep grand Cherokee female driver yelling at elderly passengers, or the one from 2009 in which he didn’t identify the race gender of the people “going into the pool and trashing the bathroom.” Feel free to ignore the cluster of calls immediately before the shooting in favor of the ones from three and five years previous, because we all know that beliefs don’t develop and concretize over time. While you’re at it, continue to insist that people who instigate confrontations are in no way culpable for their outcome. You know why? Because to everyone but you your argument amounts to this guy Blah blah blah.

Here ends the sarcasm and begins the real analysis.

The problem with SEK’s argument is that he employs the “logic” that if Zimmerman made a bunch of calls about black people he deemed suspicious, that by itself shows Zimmerman’s judgment was affected by the race of the people. But most of the people he called about were also male. Why does SEK not conclude that he profiled them on the basis of gender?

Somehow, SEK seems quite convinced that it is the color of the subjects’ skin rather than the shape of their genitals (or, gasp — their behavior!!) that determined Zimmerman’s reaction to them. But what is the evidence for this? He provides absolutely none. The rational reader gets the sense that he argues it is so because he wants it to be so.

SEK implicitly declares irrelevant petty details such as these:

  • Were the black people he called the police on actually acting suspicious?
  • Were there non-black people he observed who were acting suspiciously but did not become the focus of Zimmerman’s attention?

All he needs to know is: most of the people Zimmerman called about were black. Ergo he profiled them on the basis of race, end of analysis.

Using SEK’s logic, you could argue that I am a racist because I have prosecuted over two dozen murder cases, and virtually all the defendants were black, Hispanic, or Asian. It is not fanciful to imagine a leftist making this argument, either, because they already do. It is not uncommon for the people who have made a career of harassing me and other critics of Brett Kimberlin to argue that I am a bigot because I “prosecute minorities.” These people do not stop to ask whether the police routinely bring me murder cases involving white suspects that I then reject (they don’t) or whether I have rejected cases against minority suspects (I have). The simple fact is that in the jurisdictions where I have worked, the overwhelming majority of murder cases presented to me have involved minority suspects. The fact that I appropriately prosecute the people whom I can convict does not make me a racist.

But employing SEK’s logic, it does.

And guess what? I have never prosecuted a female for murder. So by SEK’s logic, I am a man-hating sexist too.

These conclusions are facially absurd. That is why you have to examine whether I am taking reality as I find it (and I am) — just as you have to examine whether Zimmerman took his reality the way he found it. You don’t get to assume I am passing up the chance to prosecute white murderers any more than you get to assume Zimmerman passed on the chance to report suspicious non-black people. You have to have evidence. Otherwise you’re just arguing your wishes and hopes and prejudices.

This is pretty basic logic; my 13-year-old could easily understand it. But then, she is not hellbent on not understanding it.

When it comes to issues like politics and race, failure to understand simple logic is generally not a failure of intelligence. It is a function of a mindset that blinds you to viewpoints that lie outside the realm of your own pet views. SEK is intelligent, to be sure, in the way we traditionally think of intelligence. He just has a view of the world in which the word “they” — just the word “they”! — is a dog-whistle for racism. The frisson of self-righteousness that runs down his spine as he declares people like George Zimmerman to be a racist is simply too enticing to let something like basic logic interfere.

P.S. One final point: SEK ends his post by arguing that conservatives “continue to insist that people who instigate confrontations are in no way culpable for their outcome,” which is, he says, an argument that someone who goes up to a group of black people and screams the n-word is morally right to shoot them “should he decide that the danger he sought is more dangerous than he thought it’d be.”

Simply put: bullshit. First of all, Zimmerman did not yell the n-word at Martin. But more fundamentally, conservatives are not arguing that it is always morally right for someone to use a gun “should he decide that the danger he sought is more dangerous than he thought it’d be.” There is a key word missing there: “reasonably.” Conservatives are arguing that it is moral for someone to use a gun should he reasonably decide that the danger he sought is more dangerous than he thought it’d be” — such that he reasonably and honestly believes using deadly force is necessary.

If you honestly believe deadly force is necessary, but your belief is not reasonable, that is manslaughter. If you honestly believe deadly force is necessary, and your belief is reasonable, that is self-defense — and you’re damn right it’s moral.

But lefties love to leave out the word “reasonably” because if you include it — which you must do in order to accurately reflect the state of the law — then your indictment of the outcome of the Zimmerman case sounds pointless. “Why, that jury is saying that anyone can shoot a black boy if he reasonably and honestly fears for his life!” is not much of a rallying cry.

So they just omit the word, say to hell with accuracy, don a smug look, and dare you to argue with them.

Welcome to today’s left, folks.

190 Responses to “SEK: The Fact Zimmerman Called 911 on Many Black People Proves He Racially Profiled Trayvon Martin; Or, Why Zimmerman Is a Man-Hating Feminist”

  1. DING!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  2. some people like to see things a certain way and you know what that’s OK

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  3. SEK may be intelligent, but he is a mediocre thinker. He should stick to writing fiction. Some of his pieces have been entertaining.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  4. So well stated….I await SEK’s response….

    reff whomismin Dallas (9c6587)

  5. that sounds dismissive Mr. daley, how you say it

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  6. Well, Patterico, get ready for many more trolls and a tsunami of academese. Because remember, SEK is smarter than you are; he knows better.

    And it’s funny. Sooner or later, he will start bringing up that he has many black friends, so he understands them. Watch for it.

    I am so very tired of white people, on committees of white people, discussing minority issues. It reeks of what started with Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society: the soft bigotry of low expectations and lack of accountability.

    It’s the go-to position for academics.

    Simon Jester (a79346)

  7. It’s like a sequel to “Sharknado”: “Academicane.”

    Simon Jester (a79346)

  8. Mr. Feets – So what. That’s the way it is. Prepare yourself for a blast of polysyllabic profundity and argument by AUTHORITEH!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  9. at the end of the day I don’t think George attacked Trayvon cause he was black – personally I don’t think he even attacked him at all

    I think actually it was one Mr. Trayvon whatever his name was what attacked first

    not unlike a behooded Han Solo really

    with bonus skittles

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  10. I think it was the Red Skittles….red dye #3 that made Trayvon lose his composure….

    reff whomismin Dallas (785653)

  11. something sure made him lose his composure Mr. reff

    what happened was not rational

    little man took a completely nonviolent situation and turned it into boisterous fisticuffs what escalated with tragic results

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  12. Good post.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  13. SEKs, on his best days, is a profoundly mendacious small person, that revels in calling people racists, while engaging in his uber-leftist academic wordsoup. Skinny jeans and pube beard hipsters suck.

    JD (b63a52)

  14. Mr. Feets – It was an anti-ghey beatdown of the creepy ass-cracka. The delightful Miss Jeantel said so.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  15. zimmerman been eatin bread
    rachel j been eatin lead

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  16. that is my poem occasioned by the trial of Mr. Zimmerman

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  17. JD – I thought that was a flavor saver.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  18. Somehow, SEK seems quite convinced that it is the color of the subjects’ skin rather than the shape of their genitals (or, gasp — their behavior!!) that determined Zimmerman’s reaction to them

    Well, SEK, after all, is merely projecting. That’s a given if he is (1) white and (2) liberal, and if he is also one of the millions of Americans of such ilk who have a tendency to (3) avoid moving to or spending lots of time in predominantly black neighborhoods — and, moreover, if he has (4) school-aged children who he (5) won’t send to schools where most of the student body looks like Obama’s son if he had a son — then the following delightful acronym deserves to be sent his way: “STFU.”

    Mark (98b17a)

  19. “They” is codeword racism. Srsly

    JD (b63a52)

  20. Everything is about race to SEK. The conversation on his main picture on Facebook devolves into his race theory pertaining to Games of Thrones (and Avatar).

    ratbeach (f5aad4)

  21. theme from Avatar

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVtLbDMVwL8

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  22. I currently live in a neighborhood with more black people in it than SEK’s seen in his entire life.

    SPQR (768505)

  23. something sure made him lose his composure Mr. reff

    what happened was not rational

    typical side effects of drinking “lean” made with cough syrup, Arizona Tea Company Watermelon beverage & Skittles, which, you will recall, was what St Thug Life went to the 7-11 to purchase.

    In very large quantities, DXM can cause effects similar to those of ketamine or PCP, because DXM affects similar sites in the brain. Ketamine and PCP are called “dissociative” drugs, which means they create feelings of being detached from oneself or the environment, and they distort perceptions and emotions.

    http://teens.drugabuse.gov/drug-facts/dextromethorphan-dxm-and-cold-medicine-facts

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  24. The thing is, so many of the Western Intellectual Left’s favorite pastimes – violent protests, intimidation, and so forth – could get seriously dangerous if the people they like to push around ever got the idea that it was OK to shoot somebody simply because they were a violent idiot who posed an immediate threat to your welfare. Think of the possibilities;

    PETA breaks into a research facility to wreck the place, gets shot by researchers in self defense.

    Al “KKK in blackface” Sharpton incites an anti Jewish riot, and the Jews turn out to be armed.

    A bunch of work-shy Lefties start throwing bricks through bank windows, and the people in the banks defend themselves.

    The Left LOVES to play Radical Chic games, play Revolutionary, play “Desperate Actions for Desperate Times” (as if they had any concept of real desperation). But if the people whose property and safety they routinely threaten (symbolically, of course, as if that excused anything) are armed and free to defend themselves, that would spoil the fun.

    They aren’t mad at Zimmerman for being a racist. They are mad a Zimmerman because they consider him to be a peasant, and it always alarms the (self styled) aristocracy when the peasants turn out to be armed.

    C. S. P. Schofield (adb9dd)

  25. Excellent post.

    The people that think like SEK are numerous and they have more dishonest twisted logic than just that example. They love to leave out the part about a fight happening too. Love to equate getting out of your vehicle as more severe than punching someone.
    Love to say that not identifying yourself is reason enough to get immediately punched in the face.
    Love to hope people can get “convicted of something” even if they admit no crime was broken.
    Love to say anyone carrying a gun is guilty due to that fact alone.
    Love to make the situation be caused by, and represent a larger pervasive oppression (dirty looks and watchful eyes).
    Love to ignore factual dishonesty in favor of imagined dishonesty.
    It goes on and on.

    It’s tiring helping them dance around the topics. If you get them to agree to a point, they forget about it promptly.

    NaBr (344da2)

  26. people who didn’t pay close attention think this is sociology, what happened with Mr.Zimmerman and Mr. Trayvon

    but it was just politics

    because Barack Obama is a whore

    and Eric Holder is a whore

    and Pam Biondi is a whore

    and Angela Corey is a whore

    it’s what they do

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  27. SEK’s 2012-2013 university demographics are clearly racist:

    Hispanic: 19.77%
    White: 18.19%
    Black: 1.92%
    Asian: 47.42%
    Native American: .16%
    Pacific Islander: .09%

    *The rest of the figures include multi-racial, unknown, and non-resident aliens.

    The trends have been fairly steady from 2009-2010 years until now. How racist of them when compared to US demographics.

    ratbeach (f5aad4)

  28. For #27: I forgot to state that SEK is a lecturer at UCI. The demographics posted are UCI’s demographics.

    ratbeach (f5aad4)

  29. Tingalayo!

    come little donkey come

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  30. too soon?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  31. I forgot to state that SEK is a lecturer at UCI.

    Until you mentioned his background, I didn’t know anything at all about Scott Kaufman’s academic affiliation. Assuming where he lectures (in master-planned southern Orange County) is also in the general vicinity of where he resides, then he’s even more of a stereotypical “limousine liberal” than I originally assumed to be true.

    I recall when I was much younger — and naive and idealistic — I was bothered by the nature of segregation in housing patterns. If I could have psychically glimpsed into the future at that time — when in 2013 someone like Obama is in the White House — I’d have been astonished by what the following depicts, in a setting of uber-liberal 21st-century America. But based on the total context of today? No. And I say “no,” because I’m now fully aware of how corrosive and corrupt (and contradictory) liberal biases truly are.

    So even people like Scott Kaufman — who fancy themselves as so tolerant, sophisticated and non-discriminatory — vote with their feet and the moving van. IOW, although they may claim otherwise, they ultimately won’t hang around in neighborhoods anymore than anyone else where the demographics are changing, as suggested in this article.

    washingtonpost.com, August 2011: Affluent blacks and Hispanics live in neighborhoods that are noticeably poorer than neighborhoods where low-income whites live, according to a new study that suggests income alone does not explain persistent segregation patterns in housing.

    “Income, and being successful in class terms, does not necessarily put you in a different kind of neighborhood,” said John Logan, a Brown University sociologist who analyzed census data in his study released Tuesday. His is the third study in the past week to document how minorities have fallen behind whites in both income and wealth.

    “Where the 20th century was marked by a narrowing of divides, the trend is going back in the wrong direction, and the recession exacerbated it,” said Marc H. Morial, president of the National Urban League.

    In almost every measurement, the affluent black and Hispanic households earning more than $75,000 lived in neighborhoods that were in as bad or worse shape than neighborhoods where poor whites and Asians lived.

    Poverty rates were about 7 percent in places where well-paid Hispanics and blacks lived — the same as in poor white neighborhoods. Affluent whites and Asians lived in places where it was 5 percent.

    BTW, if “liberal” were a race or ethnicity, that would be the only race or ethnicity that so many dumbed-down liberals give a damn about or fervently support.

    Mark (98b17a)

  32. The MSM and characters like SEK when they think of crime and trials want The Great White Defendant above all else.

    When this story broke, they saw the name “George Zimmerman” and assumed he was a white Republican. Had he been a Puerto Rican or Dominican named “Jorge Mendoza” do you think it would have played out this way?

    Had this same exact scenario took place in Texas with a Mexican American named “Roberto Gonzalez,” it would have been ruled self-defense and you would have never heard of it.

    DN (09d6b1)

  33. You hear this argument a lot, generally with regard to incarceration or arrest or traffic stop statistics.

    a) SEK has failed to show whether there were plenty of black males George didn’t find suspicious or alert the police about. He can’t possibly have that information, and pretending he doesn’t is affirming a false consequence.

    b) This type of statistic only shows bias if you leave out the most important thing to compare it with. What is the demographic composition of the caught burglars and the witnessed home invasions? What is the demographic composition of the disaffected youth that a reasonable person would find suspicious? Ace had a recent post where he notes that he would find a certain category of thug suspicious regardless of race. That’s certainly the case for me. A white person, or hispanic, or asian, who has certain traits and behaviors, will be suspicious to me regardless of race. For all SEK knows, the demographic of most of the suspicious people around George were black males, and his reporting all the suspicious people reflects that reality.

    But SEK doesn’t want to acknowledge that possibility because SEK wants to assert, without proving it, that there is no correlation between race and crime.

    But that is the prime unstated premise of his argument, no? It is therefore on SEK to show this evidence.

    The sad reality is that there is a very strong correlation between crime and a few demographic details. The primary one is fatherless-ness, and another is poverty, and effectively that seems to mean that a high percentage of perpetrators of crimes are black males.

    It is very important to understand that it is not right to base suspicion on someone being black. That’s racist, corrosive to society, and importantly it’s inaccurate. But understanding this with an understanding of the prior paragraph can be tricky and is work, and many will take SEK’s path of just denying the truth (that a disproportionately high percentage of perpetrators are black males) in order to more easily arrive at another truth (that it is wrong to base one’s suspicions of a person on their skin color).

    That’s why a more complete profile of a criminal is so important. Does the person fit a description of a criminal? Does their behavior make more sense if they are a good guy or a bad guy? etc etc. It turns out that there were burglars who fit Trayvon’s description very well, and in many opinions he was behaving suspiciously. The jury was unable to learn what we know: Trayvon was a street fighter who traded in drugs and guns. He was caught with tools and proceeds of a burglary.

    That’s something SEK leaves out: George’s profiling of Trayvon was actually accurate. This was not one of the good guys.

    Was George’s profile based too heavily on Trayvon’s skin color? We cannot honestly know one way or another. I suspect there are many who struggle to avoid falling into the trap of developing a visceral racism if they are personally exposed to the truth that a disproportionate percentage of black males commit crimes. It’s very good that SEK is so critical of those who profile on the basis of race, and it’s very important that people argue against doing so, but SEK avoids all the meaningful and challenging aspects of this issue, and by doing so I guess he accomplishes nothing but making a baseless accusation.

    That’s my big disappointment with online discussion. It is so easy for people to duck out when it’s time to dig in.

    Dustin (303dca)

  34. “Concretize”?

    Oh, and since WHEN did Zimmerman live in an apartment complex?

    Icy (faba7f)

  35. 33. And a statistical demonstration of bias, e.g., death penalty reserved for blacks, works best when applied to a reasonably(there’s that word again) independent collation of data, i.e., all such cases in a State or all States with the penalty.

    Applying it to an individual’s experience is statistically invalid.

    What does SEK lecture on, again?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  36. Rachel J has been eating everything.
    Now we know were all the food Al Sharpton isn’t eating has been going.
    Speaking of her, I believe that if she’d have presented herself as well in court as she has over the past interviews she may have had some impact on the jury that was postive for Trayvon’s family… well except for the whoop azz remarks and the redefinition of cracka and the homophobia thingie…
    The hair is a vast improvement over the Papua tribal war helmet look.
    Oh and she doesn’t like Don West? Huh. Well after this round of interviews gets refed her, she will like the civil rights defense lawyer even less

    steveg (794291)

  37. You hear this argument a lot, generally with regard to incarceration or arrest or traffic stop statistics.

    a) SEK has failed to show whether there were plenty of black males George didn’t find suspicious or alert the police about. He can’t possibly have that information, and pretending he doesn’t is affirming a false consequence.

    b) This type of statistic only shows bias if you leave out the most important thing to compare it with. What is the demographic composition of the caught burglars and the witnessed home invasions? What is the demographic composition of the disaffected youth that a reasonable person would find suspicious? Ace had a recent post where he notes that he would find a certain category of thug suspicious regardless of race. That’s certainly the case for me. A white person, or hispanic, or asian, who has certain traits and behaviors, will be suspicious to me regardless of race. For all SEK knows, the demographic of most of the suspicious people around George were black males, and his reporting all the suspicious people reflects that reality.

    But SEK doesn’t want to acknowledge that possibility because SEK wants to assert, without proving it, that there is no correlation between race and crime.

    I wonder if he wants to assert that there is no correlation between gender and crime.

    And if he wants to scream that anyone who thinks there is, is SEEEEEEXIST!

    Patterico (9c670f)

  38. SEK says GZ is a Racist?

    Well, that settles it then!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  39. I’ll be brief:

    1. You completely missed the point about escalation. He always identified the subjects as male, but he only fixated on them being black after 4 August 2011. That cluster of calls differs from his earlier ones, and if you’re honest, you’ll admit that.

    2. You want to miss that point, for reasons I don’t entirely understand. Normally you’re dogged in your pursuit of patterns of declarations and behaviors, but here you’re committed to proving that there’s no difference between his behavior prior to 4 August 2011 and after.

    3. I deliberately didn’t bring up the word “reasonable” or any of its cognates because reasonable human beings don’t call 911 over potholes.

    4. You deliberately linked my name with something I never claimed — even including it in the title of the post — so that Google will notice in the manner of Jeff Goldstein, which is beneath you. You’ll note that I didn’t include your name in my post, much less highlight it in connection with an argument you didn’t make. For whatever it’s worth, I find that incredibly sad.

    That’s all.

    SEK (74bb56)

  40. To accurately assess his behavior, you need to construct a 2×2 contingency table (did and didn’t report by black and non-black [or white and non-white, depending on how you want to include hispanics etc]). Aside from having fairly few examples to assess, the “did not report” half of the contingency table is empty. Therefore it is difficult to draw any conclusion.
    A deeper level of analysis would look at the underlying crime statistics by population to determine if GZ were truly reporting black males disproportionately.

    Carl B (3016c0)

  41. SEK, I found Jeff’s anti-semite smear ‘is really satire’ excuse to be dishonest, but in this case, Patterico is very upfront that he is satirizing you. No one coming across this post is going to misunderstand what’s going on here, so your comparison of this to something that was deliberately misleading to anyone who found the anti-semite smear is not a fair one.

    I deliberately didn’t bring up the word “reasonable” or any of its cognates because reasonable human beings don’t call 911 over potholes.

    George didn’t call 911. He called the non-emergency line (which is 311 where I live). 311 is for things like potholes. How is the city supposed to fix that stuff if they don’t know about it?

    So the assertions you’re making are not quite the truth.

    here you’re committed to proving that there’s no difference between his behavior prior to 4 August 2011 and after.

    I don’t think that’s his point. I think you have fixated on this and most people are not.

    The night of the Trayvon call it’s clear that George was not certain of the race of the person he called the non emergency line about until well into the call. Yet you seem to count it in your pattern. I didn’t listen to the other calls, but I am immediately suspicious if you handled the truth poorly.

    SEK, do black men make up a disproportionate number of perpetrators of crime? If they do (and they do), then perhaps George was not the reason many of the suspicious persons he reported were in that demographic. Perhaps his reason for calling them in was racist, and perhaps it wasn’t.

    You note that you believe there is a change where his calls narrow to a “pattern”. You are arguing that the cause is George’s racism. This doesn’t fit well with what we know of George, a man who challenged the police over its treatment of a black man, and someone who mentored black kids, and someone who is himself black by most standards employed to determine that. So what you’re saying requires a lot of evidence. There is an alternative explanation, though. Perhaps George’s time on neighborhood watch and working with victims of crimes gave him more information about how to profile a bad guy. And I don’t mean race. I mean traits that when followed would disproportionately correlate with race.

    You take this ugly tack of saying anyone who disagrees with you must be dishonest, even though you’ve said several things that aren’t true and rely on poor reasoning. I think the urge to create a dichotomy of ‘agrees with me or is a liar’ speaks to your low confidence in your own argument.

    Dustin (303dca)

  42. Patterico – What’s wrong with you?

    Why didn’t you accept the points that SEK unsuccessfully tried to make?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  43. Dustin said it best: the profile admitted by GZ (on drugs) was possibly correct (evidence of marijuana use, but no evidence of whether TM was high at the time).
    The profile imputed to GZ (assumed he was a thug, into drugs, possibly into theft or burglary, possibly into illegal gun trading) seem also to have been correct based on evidence not admitted at trial including texts, photos, suspensions from school including finding jewelry and burglary tools and baggies with pot residue, and other reported information).

    Carl B (3016c0)

  44. Regarding “escalation” into citing race, it seems possible that he learned through feedback at neighborhood watch meetings or from 311 calls that he needed to provide more details to be useful — “suddenly” (cherry-picked?) a lot more specificity not just with respect to race but ages, car model, and clothing.

    Carl B (3016c0)

  45. Comment by Carl B (3016c0) — 7/18/2013 @ 12:27 am

    I believe George aided someone who was a victim of a dramatic home invasion (as she was home). I haven’t seen any description of the culprit, but I wouldn’t be surprised if George was trying to catch that person because he met with the victim several times. Maybe that’s what SEK is getting at.

    But there’s another thing SEK is getting at, and I’ve seen that many times from the left. George was a weirdo nut. SEK says that reasonable people do not care enough about potholes to inform the city to fix them. Certainly most people don’t care enough to do that. Most people don’t mentor kids, either. Most people don’t give their neighbors heavy duty locks to replace a broken one (as George did to the victim I mentioned above). Most people don’t organize block parties and neighborhood watches to try to organize their community in a positive way.

    A lot of people on the left cannot stand the idea of an individual doing this. That’s what the government is for. Anyone who does this stuff on their own is a wannabee because they aren’t the government.

    I believe George had poor judgment the night he shot Trayvon and should have held back. I believe smart police officers in well staffed departments hold back all the time for support in similar circumstances. They also identify themselves loudly, as I wish George had (“I’m the neighborhood watch and I’ve called the police.” would have given Trayvon a chance to rethink what George was doing and how to respond).

    But George at least gave a crap about his neighborhood. He wasn’t too cool for school, or whatever the hell attitude SEK is conveying when he expresses contempt for reporting potholes to the people who are paid to fix potholes. Where these people, who did little to nothing as George was getting his head pounded into concrete, worth it? I don’t know, but I feel like the attitude of ‘it’s weird to care’ is making us less worth it.

    Dustin (303dca)

  46. Since SEK is commenting here, I have to admit it, I’m in suspense over what happened in August 2011 (“immediately prior to the shooting”) to change/escalate his behavior.
    Don’t know how suddenly the behavior supposedly changed, since nothing indicated in original post about 2009-2011 (a 23-month hole), but the big difference from the handful of 2009 citations is they are regarding possible criminal or suspicious activity as opposed to potholes (garage doors could go either way I guess).

    Carl B (dbe735)

  47. Carl, I was curious so I looked into Olivia Bertalan, the witness whose home was invaded in Zimmerman’s neighborhood. The burglary was on August 3, 2011. Apparently this and neighbors believing there were burglars among the residents and people routinely casing the complex were all big instigators in the community developing a community watch.

    Putting myself in George’s shoes as someone who befriended someone like Olivia, I would be surprised if he didn’t become much more focused on suspicious persons and more focused on those who fit the same general profile (including behavior). If George decided to report all the black people he saw, obviously that is racist and insane, but I don’t think that’s an accurate description of the shift SEK identified.

    Dustin (303dca)

  48. Shorter SEK: racial profiling = racism

    Icy (3eb321)

  49. All of SEK’s examples, before Aug 2011, except for one, do not involve a person.

    He seems to be implying something changed with George Zimmerman then. I’m not sure what he’s getting at. George Zimmerman became a racial profiler then? He started to get interested in reporting on people, rather than potholes?

    More likely, something changed in the community: there was an increase in burglaries. That’s what George Zimmerman said in the Feb 26, 2012 call to police.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  50. There is no reason to believe that the crime rate in any given place has to be static. In fact there’s plenty of reason for it not to be.

    If it ever appears to be static, and it may appear to be roughly static for extended periods of time, it’s probably because two trends – one that increases crime, and one that reduces crime, are in equilibrium.

    A criminal making friends and recruiting friends increases crime, and law enforcement reduces crime. (religion can as well, if there ius soime great revival maybe, or some other kind of organization gets active)

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  51. What probably happened here was that previously, the burglars in Sanford had not gone into the gated community. But somebody discovered this could be done, and it was profitable, and told others, and the news spread.

    Criminals usually stick to famiiar territory, and Twin Lakes Retreat had become familiar.

    These criminals may very well have been mostly associated with each other, and maybe were known as the “Colts” I am not familar with Saford and have no way of telling whether that word had meaning.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  52. SEK is not bothered by the fact of more males comitting crimes, but he is bothered by the thought of more blacks or minorities comitting crimes.

    I suppose that is so because more males committing crimes reflects something intrinsic in males, but there can’t be anything instrinsically different in blacks like this.

    That’s right – the difference is external – differential association.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  53. SEK’s basis for claiming that George Zimmerman as obsessed with blacks is hat in the sole example of report on a person before August 2011, the man’s race is not mentioned.

    But it was the police dispatcher who chose either to inquire or report about race, not George Zimmerman. Back in August 2004 irt probably never occured to anone that somebody might be black, or it didn’t matter because they were talking about a green truck.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  54. The difference is nor intrinsic – and it’s not eternal and it didn’t always exist – but it’s real, and extremely extensive.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  55. 39.4. “You deliberately linked my name with something I never claimed”

    Possible import: SEK complains, “I’m getting more than a little annoyed with the self-righteous proclamations of conservatives that George Zimmerman’s been proven innocent of profiling”

    Gentle Reader may be excused for taking by implication that profiling is immoral if not illegal, that despite being at times wise?

    Gentle Reader no doubt is confused by an inarguably implied relevancy, in any case, of some unarticulated evil in profiling.

    But since the statement is so elliptic, so beside anyone’s actual interest, any response can ‘miss the point’.

    Conservative’s cannot self-righteously feel exonerated of that for which they are proud.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  56. Folks, you are trying to apply logic, reasoning, and common sense to the thinking of someone that said the word “they” is codeword racism. Frankly, anyone that claims to be a me to translate codeword racism should be dismissed out of hand, but claiming “they” is codeword is functionally insane. People that do that will, and do, find racism wherever they wish. Mississippi. Codeword! Lower taxes. Codeword! United States. Codeword. White privilege. Codeword!

    Just put on your bedsheets and pillowcases. That d-bag hipster wannabe thinker has you pegged.

    JD (b63a52)

  57. I wish to accept, as real, at least for the sake of argument, Mr Kaufman’s claim that Mr Zimmerman was more suspicious of black men than he seems to have been of white men or women of any race. The obvious rejoinder is: so what? He didn’t report Mr Martin as being a black male in an area where only white people ought to be, but as behaving suspiciously, and provided a description of the behavior he thought was suspicious. If it could somehow be documented that Mr Zimmerman never reported a white male behaving in exactly the same manner, would that somehow invalidate his call to the police?

    No, of course not. To Mr Zimmerman, Mr Martin appeared to be casing the joint, looking for burglary opportunities. Perhaps it would make him a poor neighborhood watchman if he didn’t report whites behaving in the same manner, but that would not, in itself, mean that his report concerning Mr Martin was invalid. It’s like a policeman who lets white speeders go, but tickets blacks driving over the speed limit; such would make him a bad cop, but it doesn’t mean that the black drivers he did ticket weren’t speeding.

    Though I have said, and continue to say, that Mr Zimmerman created the whole situation by trailing Mr Martin, having trailed Mr Martin, having called the police on him, even if he had done so specifically because Mr Martin was black, does not somehow justify the fact that Mr Martin turned on him, closed the gap, and started a face-to-face confrontation. That Mr Zimmerman might have been prejudiced against blacks did not somehow make it legal for Mr Martin to assault him.

    The first actual crime committed was the assault by one of those two men on the other. The state contended that Mr Zimmerman sung first, while Mr Zimmerman stated that it was Mr Martin who initiated the fight. There were no (known) third party witnesses.

    If the honorable Mr de la Riomba had been able to prove that Mr Zimmerman had swung first, perhaps the jury would have returned a different verdict, given that it would have been Mr Martin defending himself from an attack. He couldn’t prove that, certainly not to the standard demanded by the law for criminal convictions, and most people, looking at the evidence, would have thought that it was the other way around.

    The problem for our friends on the left is simple: even if Mr Zimmerman was a secret Klansman, he wasn’t breaking the law! It was Mr Martin who broke the law . . . and paid the price for that.

    The Klansman Dana (3e4784)

  58. does not somehow justify the fact that Mr Martin turned on him, closed the gap, and started a face-to-face confrontation

    We don’t know that to be true, but in any event, Zimmerman isn’t a racist but it seems that SEK is a fabuloust using his position as a lecturer to further a meme

    EPWJ (f44e22)

  59. Dana

    They didn’t know -they all felt Z was guilty but couldn’t prove it.

    That’s what’s going to get him charged federally and make it stick

    EPWJ (f44e22)

  60. People who write should get their basic facts correct first. Becuase if they don’t, I ignore what they write. Zimmerman never called 911; he called the non-emergency number as he was instructed to do.

    amr (838131)

  61. EPWJ wrote:

    does not somehow justify the fact that Mr Martin turned on him, closed the gap, and started a face-to-face confrontation

    We don’t know that to be true,

    Actually, that part we do know to be true. We do not know, other than to have Mr Zimmerman’s word for it, who through the first punch, but we do know that a face-to-face confrontation occurred, and that this occurred after Mr Martin, having seen Mr Zimmerman following him, decided to approach. That part is on the 911 recording.

    The Dana not on the jury (3e4784)

  62. They didn’t know -they all felt Z was guilty but couldn’t prove it.

    That’s what’s going to get him charged federally and make it stick

    Oh dear Allah.

    JD (beb3ae)

  63. 39

    … That cluster of calls differs from his earlier ones, and if you’re honest, you’ll admit that.

    What’s the p-value?

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  64. The linked New York Times column, “Men, Who Needs Them”, closes thusly:

    “When I explained this to a female colleague and asked her if she thought that there was yet anything irreplaceable about men, she answered, ‘They’re entertaining.’ Gentlemen, let’s hope that’s enough.”

    Patterico inspires me to alter that passage:

    “When I explained this to a female colleague and asked her if she thought that there was yet anything irreplaceable about blacks, she answered, ‘They’re entertaining.’ Gentlemen, let’s hope that’s enough.”

    Puts “feminism” in an interesting light, doesn’t it?

    pst314 (ae6bd1)

  65. Ouch! What was I thinking when I typed, “who through the first punch?” I denounce myself.

    The grammatically precise Dana (3e4784)

  66. People still care what Squat Ewic Kweefman “thinks”? Why?

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  67. They aren’t mad at Zimmerman for being a racist. They are mad a Zimmerman because they consider him to be a peasant, and it always alarms the (self styled) aristocracy when the peasants turn out to be armed.

    Exactly, Schofield. They believe the only people entitled to a defense are those who can hire it.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  68. I deliberately didn’t bring up the word “reasonable” or any of its cognates because reasonable human beings don’t call 911 over potholes.

    Lots of people have been sloppily saying “911” when they mean the non-emergency number, which is what Zimmerman usually called. I suspect the intellectually weak Squat Epic Kweefman is doing that here.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  69. Carl, I was curious so I looked into Olivia Bertalan, the witness whose home was invaded in Zimmerman’s neighborhood. The burglary was on August 3, 2011. Apparently this and neighbors believing there were burglars among the residents and people routinely casing the complex were all big instigators in the community developing a community watch.

    So, Kweefman’s “he’s WACIST!” argument hinges on a change of behavior that occurred in the aftermath of an occupied home invasion in which the criminals were seen and well-described.

    And in which the victim was black.

    And in which George offered the victim and her infant (toddler?) the opportunity to stay in his home if she didn’t feel safe.

    I dunno about you guys, but I’ve never met a “WACIST!” who offered people he was “WACIST” against to stay in their house.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  70. So 5 of Zimmerman’s 46 calls were on black people? To hear the libs talk he was 46/46.

    Vatar (863444)

  71. He always identified the subjects as male, but he only fixated on them being black after 4 August 2011.

    Scott Kaufman, I wouldn’t snicker at the faux tolerance and willful naivete of liberals like you if, for example, happily decided to switch your current residence to a very urbanized part of the LA area (eg, around USC), or to an infamous community like Detroit (whose downtown has seen the influx of a small number of new residents who’ve been initiating so-called gentrification over the past few years).

    I’d definitely have to accommodate your POV if you’re that tiny — tiny — percentage of people (certainly who are upwardly mobile, liberal, and white or black—meaning folks like Barack and Michelle, first in Chicago and now in DC) who send their children to schools where most of the student body looks like Obama’s son if he had a son.

    I don’t know if George Zimmerman is even as racially sensitive as you’re making him out to be — as the following two people are — since your contention perhaps would have a bit more merit if Zimmerman often saw lots of white (male) teenagers loitering around his neighborhood, but never reported or became suspicious about them.

    soc.umn.edu:

    Consider these two quotes by distinguished Black Americans

    If I’m walking down a street in Center City Philadelphia at two in the morning and I hear some footsteps behind me and I turn around and there are a couple of young white dudes behind me, I am probably not going to get very uptight. I’m probably not going to have the same reaction if I turn around and there is the proverbial Black urban youth behind me. Now if I am going to have this reaction—and I’m a Black male who has studied marshal arts for twenty some odd years and can defend myself—I can’t help but think that the average white judge in the situation will have a reaction that is ten times more intense.
    — Judge Theodore A. McKee, U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals.[Appointed by Bill Clinton in 1994] (Kennedy 1998:16)

    There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start to think about robbery and then look around and see it’s somebody white and feel relieved.
    — The Reverend Jesse Jackson. (Kennedy 1998, 16)

    “Limousine liberals” are quite a sight to behold.

    Mark (98b17a)

  72. 1. “You completely missed the point about escalation. He always identified the subjects as male”

    False.

    2. “You want to miss that point”

    Because it’s based on false facts.

    3. “I deliberately didn’t bring up the word “reasonable” or any of its cognates because reasonable human beings don’t call 911 over potholes.”

    That is a perfect example of arguing like a troll. It is supremely unresponsive to my argument, and focuses on the point you want to make to the exclusion of responding to my point. Yes, he made some dumb 911 calls. No, that doesn’t deprive him of the right to self-defense. No, that has nothing whatsoever to do with your omission of the word “reasonably” or my argument over why you omitted it.

    I’m not responding to your fourth point other than to note that it is self-evidently absurd.

    I like your writing about humorous events in your life, and you seem personable on the phone, but I don’t like the person you become on the Internet when you argue political matters. You turn into the classic lefty troll: evasive, illogical, and full of sophistry. Pardon me if I don’t waste much more of my time dealing with that person. I make this observation, however, to explain to my confused readers why I still like you as a person. Most of them don’t read your humorous anecdotes and have not spoken to you. All they see is the trollish persona that you always seem to become when discussing politics on the Internet. I don’t like that persona, but I still like SEK the person.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  73. Rob – GZ spent decades building a cover for his self-loathing and racisms. He took a black gal to prom, went into business with a black man, organized protests in re a black homeless man that had been beaten, all part of an elaborate cover story so he could eventually murder a black child armed with nothing but a pleasant attitude and Skittles.

    JD (11c0e3)

  74. I don’t like that persona, but I still like SEK the person.

    My theory is that various people (certainly those who’ve strongly identified as either liberal or conservative since their youth) have very innate — very deeply felt — biases that affect their view of the world. A ton of bricks could fall on their head and they wouldn’t feel a thing—although that reaction is more noticeable among the left than the right. For liberals, their perceptions are often a very twisted, distorted, disingenuous desire to root for the underdog, a belief that compassion can never be excessive, a feeling that humans must be tolerant for tolerance’s sake.

    Mark (98b17a)

  75. Lots of people have been sloppily saying “911″ when they mean the non-emergency number, which is what Zimmerman usually called.

    Look at the article he cites. They distinguish between the two. He called 911 over a lot of stupid stuff.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  76. They had more then 400 calls in one year, from that complex, total.

    narciso (3fec35)

  77. One of the 911 calls was for a pothole:

    March 17, 2005 – 7:21 p.m.
    Type: 911
    Subject: Maintenance
    Report: Pothole “that is blocking the road”

    That’s just an abuse of 911.

    Zimmerman is not necessarily an angel in every respect of his life just because he engaged in justified self defense and has been vilified falsely as a racist and was persecuted for a crime he never should have been charged with.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  78. seeing how useless the police were, what are the odds the rest of the departments in Sanford were any more efficient,

    narciso (3fec35)

  79. if it’s a big enough hole, and it’s in the traffic path, reporting it to 911 could very well be appropriate.

    also, i’m unfamiliar with how things are done in the part of the world, but if there isn’t any other number to contact local government with, you use the tools they’ve given you.

    if GZ really was making inappropriate calls to 911, you’d think they would have issued citations or taken other legal action to make him stop.

    that none was makes me doubt there was an issue.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  80. i doubt the Sanford cops are any more useless than the LAPD. they say they want to know when certain activities occur in my neighborhood, yet, invariably, when i call to report said behavior, the end result is a call back in two or three hours from dispatch asking if i can still see the suspicious activity.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  81. He called 911 over a lot of stupid stuff.

    If Zimmerman was, in fact, often using 911 to report issues of a non-serious, non-urgent matter, then that doesn’t reflect well upon him. That’s a far more interesting and telling point that Kaufman could have pointed out, not the fact that all the suspicious loiterers he was reporting happened to be black.

    Mark (98b17a)

  82. I think 46 calls are significant, it denotes someone who is a REAL problem. I also thinks its obvious what he did. I also think the jury caved when they knew he was guilty, but in today’s over CSI’d , society, without film, without several eyewitnesses – you cant get a conviction.

    EPWJ (f44e22)

  83. You better hope the govt isn’t getting involved, cause dollars to donuts – they are going to find out who was screaming on the tape.

    EPWJ (f44e22)

  84. Over eight years, with 400 calls in one year, that doesn’t seem like alot.

    narciso (3fec35)

  85. You take this ugly tack of saying anyone who disagrees with you must be dishonest, even though you’ve said several things that aren’t true and rely on poor reasoning. I think the urge to create a dichotomy of ‘agrees with me or is a liar’ speaks to your low confidence in your own argument.

    This.

    Scott is very busy impugning the worst possible motives to everyone who disagrees with him. On Facebook he is claiming that I am allowing people to lie about him in this thread. I have no idea what he is talking about. I haven’t even read the thread; I have only skimmed it. But he knows I read every word and am deliberately allowing lies because The Internet.

    For the record, please do not lie about SEK or anyone else.

    Dustin, I admire your patient manner of commenting.

    Patterico (291aa2)

  86. #69, Rob, if you’re referring to Olivia Bertalan as the victim, she’s white. Google her name and see pictures of her on the stand.

    ropelight (3b089b)

  87. One recalls, the prosecution tried to introduce voice experts, that imagined things out of whole cloth.

    narciso (3fec35)

  88. I also think the jury caved when they knew he was guilty,

    Your perception apparently is stemming from the little voice in the back of your mind that says things like “Dede Scozzafava is a fine Republican!” Best not to have any confidence in or respect for that voice. It will steer you wrong time and time again—and it certainly isn’t a truly compassionate, humane facet of your thought processes.

    Mark (98b17a)

  89. I think 46 calls are significant, it denotes someone who is a REAL problem. I also thinks its obvious what he did. I also think the jury caved when they knew he was guilty,

    You should quit saying “I think”. It is not supported by the facts.

    JD (b63a52)

  90. #69, Rob, if you’re referring to Olivia Bertalan as the victim, she’s white. Google her name and see pictures of her on the stand.

    I stand corrected.

    Scott is very busy impugning the worst possible motives to everyone who disagrees with him.

    How is this something new? This person you claim to like has done this for YEARS. Yet you “like” him.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  91. Zimmerman is not necessarily an angel in every respect of his life just because he engaged in justified self defense and has been vilified falsely as a racist and was persecuted for a crime he never should have been charged with.

    Never said he was.

    But when I look at him, I see someone who generally behaves in an exemplary way. As a result, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, especially against people who clearly want to see him dead, and who will do anything to accomplish that.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  92. That whole site, embarasses Warren Zevon,

    narciso (3fec35)

  93. if GZ really was making inappropriate calls to 911, you’d think they would have issued citations or taken other legal action to make him stop.

    that none was makes me doubt there was an issue.

    Also consider the assessment of Zimmerman shown by the police who were called as witnesses. You know, people who actually dealt with him.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  94. Seriously, why consider any of the garbage they are throwing forth, what became of the BS thrown against McDonnell exactly bupkuss, Biden’s fundraiser got a quarter million dollar fine, that was very squirrelly,

    narciso (3fec35)

  95. In today’s risk-averse era — full of apathy, self-entitlement, and a superficial form of compassion (ie, where people love to emote their do-gooderness but don’t necessarily lift a finger to put such sentiment into action—sort of analogous to Green Earthers who buy and drive around in big SUVs) — Zimmerman is more the exception than the rule. The ethos of “don’t get involved!,” “don’t risk getting sued!,” “reality TV is all the reality I can tolerate in my personal life!” is what’s more pervasive nowadays.

    Mark (98b17a)

  96. EPWJ wrote:

    I also think the jury caved when they knew he was guilty, but in today’s over CSI’d , society, without film, without several eyewitnesses – you cant get a conviction.

    Wouldn’t that be what we refer to as “reasonable doubt?” Heaven forfend that we ever see the day when a jury is supposed to convict, ’cause they just know a man is guilty, without having any actual evidence of guilt.

    The Dana who isn't a lawyer (3e4784)

  97. I see the concern troll is concerned … still.

    SPQR (768505)

  98. Is today “An Exercise in Self-Parody” Day?

    (and I don’t mean just EPWJ)

    Icy (9788b4)

  99. Dana

    Reasonable doubt is so much TOTAL BS! It means different things to different people, some people are naturally racked with doubt, it doesnt matter what level of decision making you have or what evidence and the defense went right to it – WITHOUT VIDEO, IN ANY CRIME THERE IS ALWAYS DOUBT.

    Anytime the defense goes right to the hey you have to be really really really sure – even they know their client murdered the kid –its their only play, only one.

    The defense had the resources to tell who it was on the tape – why didn’t they share it – because it wasn’t their client now was it. Oh and ringing in people who were not witnesses and all stating it was George on the tape, only in Florida could you bring in people who stand to lose millions in a civil suit to testify on something they didn’t witness, only in Florida…

    Cursing, calling the police, tracking, carrying a weapon, disobeying, making false statements to dispatch, Zimmerman wasn’t a racist he was a dangerous idiot/zealot with a gun.

    Too bad Holder, is a cretin, he will never do the right thing or he will screw it up by opening his mouth- its a shame the president felt a need to comment, and its a crime the way the prosecutors handled themselves

    But in the end-the guy murdered a kid -a punk but last I checked, we elected a grown up Trayvon and then re-elected him.

    go figure

    EPWJ (f44e22)

  100. After what Kimberlin and Rauhauser have done, I don’t see how there can be a benefit of the doubt,
    with any of these people, the ‘brainless one; is part of the lynch mob, setting fire to the last
    remains of the legal system.

    narciso (3fec35)

  101. Scott,

    In October 2012, the Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump admitted Zimmerman did not profile Martin based on his race. Instead, Crump complained that Zimmerman profiled Trayvon as an MMA-loving punk, which the facts suggest he was.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  102. Bold and all caps, the concern troll must have had a liquid lunch.

    SPQR (768505)

  103. No, no, wait, wait. You are mixing up two different things.

    Crump said (in October) that George Zimmerman had profiled Trayvon Martin as “a criminally minded young ‘punk’ ”

    He added that “now” Trayvon Martin was being profiled posthumously as a MMA (mixed martial arts) loving, violent thing” [SIC – should be thug?)

    That second characterization stems comes from the fact one of the witnesses to the fight (Jonathan Good) may have said the man on top was attacking the man on bottom in a way that reports described as mixed martial arts style. I am not sure at all that he used that word himself. He may also have described the fight in general in those terms.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  104. 39.I’ll be brief:

    1. You completely missed the point about escalation. He always identified the subjects as male, but he only fixated on them being black after 4 August 2011. That cluster of calls differs from his earlier ones, and if you’re honest, you’ll admit that.

    2. You want to miss that point, for reasons I don’t entirely understand. Normally you’re dogged in your pursuit of patterns of declarations and behaviors, but here you’re committed to proving that there’s no difference between his behavior prior to 4 August 2011 and after.

    Comment by SEK (74bb56) — 7/18/2013 @ 12:07 am

    SEK, the fact of the matter is that the Retreat at Twin Lakes experienced a crime wave, and the people committing the crimes were overwhelmingly young black men.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

    But a more nuanced portrait of Zimmerman has emerged from a Reuters investigation into Zimmerman’s past and a series of incidents in the community in the months preceding the Martin shooting.

    Based on extensive interviews with relatives, friends, neighbors, schoolmates and co-workers of Zimmerman in two states, law enforcement officials, and reviews of court documents and police reports, the story sheds new light on the man at the center of one of the most controversial homicide cases in America.

    …Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

    “Let’s talk about the elephant in the room. I’m black, OK?” the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. “There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood,” she said. “That’s why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin.”

    …In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

    …But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.

    On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy’s bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

    “I said, ‘What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'” she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

    Police arrived just as the burglars – who had been trying to disconnect the couple’s television – fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

    …The Retreat at Twin Lakes e-newsletter for February 2012 noted: “The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood … during peak crime hours…”

    …On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor’s empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

    “I don’t know what he’s doing. I don’t want to approach him, personally,” Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

    On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

    Police found Demeacis’s laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

    …Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

    “We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy,” Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

    The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

    Several points:

    1) The black lady was speaking for herself. I find black people much less likely to talk themselves out of being suspicious of a young black man than a white exposed to the kind of guilt you’re peddling, SEK. They haven’t been indoctrinated in that form of guilt.

    (Aside: Florida’s SYG benefits black residents at a rate far out of proportion to the percentage of blacks in the population. Which is to be expected because blacks are more likely to be victims of crime.)

    2) You are looking at GZ in a vacuum. As if GZ was so single-mindedly focused on young black males it can only be explained by racism. As the article notes, it wasn’t just GZ. Everyone who resided in that community was calling the police about suspicious activity and overwhelmingly the people acting suspiciously were young black males.

    Where those roofers racists? Do you even know those roofers races?

    You can not accuse GZ of racial animus without knowing the trend of all the reports of suspicious activity or actual crime from the other residents; he may well have been entirely within the norm.

    3) Only Nanny Bloomberg or the TSA can afford to target people who aren’t acting suspiciously in order to generate the kind of statistics that can satisfy you, SEK, in your vigilant search for statistical signs of racism. The residents of the Retreat at Twin Lakes could not.

    If they got together and decided to falsely report non-blacks who aren’t peering into windows and aren’t trying to open doors simply to generate the kind of race-neutral stats you need to see the Sanford PD would simply stop responding.

    They have to accurately report what they see in order to get a response. Now, if the Sanford PD wants to manipulate the numbers in order to convince you, SEK, that they aren’t disparately focused on young black men that’s there business.

    Have you ever lived in a neighborhood with “peak crime hours?”

    4) If you want to find a villain in all this, SEK, look in the mirror. Chief Hurley of the Miami-Dade School PD stopped reporting crimes committed by young black men to the municipal police departments precisely to generate false crime statistics. He didn’t do that in a vacuum. People like you, SEK, need to see those kind of statistics or else you see evidence of racism. This is the basis of your assumption that GZ is a racist. You refuse to admit that GZ was accurately describing the situation, and that the reason the majority of suspicious individuals he reported acting suspiciously is because that’s the reality of it.

    Police Bureaucrats like Hurley know exactly what kind of statistics they need to generate to make you happy, SEK. (Non-professionals like the residents of the Retreat at Twin Lakes do not.) So instead of reporting actual crimes the school district just suspended people like TM. His investigators filed affidavits saying the chief specifically told them to under report crimes committed by young black men.

    Had they reported the crimes TM was committing he’d have been in the Miami-Dade juvenile justice system. Which possibly might have accomplished something his broken home situation could never have; altered his behavior.

    Instead he was spending his 10 day suspension on vacation at his dad’s place near Orlando.

    And what you’re focused on is that GZ should have been generating the kind of reporting stats that Chief Hurley was generating.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  105. I thought Bertalan was the one last February, it turns out it was Tameacis, but it does show a dysfunctional law enforcement environment, I’m not surprised however.

    narciso (3fec35)

  106. The fact of the matter is that we’ve grown less honest over time.

    “Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We’ve got to face that.”

    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., 1961.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  107. “Reasonable doubt is so much TOTAL BS!”

    EPWJ – Too bad it’s the law, right? Since Zimmerman admitted to shooting Martin, why wasn’t the State able to prove its case?

    Please answer that one.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. Well it is, Otto the Belgian Aristotle, and the London Underground political movement.

    narciso (3fec35)

  109. Steve57 – You can’t bring that up. Raaaaaacist!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  110. Zimmerman shoots Trayvon: Zimmerman’s a White Hispanic
    White guy shoots Zimmerman: Zimmerman’s Hispanic with bonus Black ancestry.
    Black guy shoots Trayvon: Nobody cares.

    Icy (9788b4)

  111. Look at the article he cites. They distinguish between the two. He called 911 over a lot of stupid stuff.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 7/18/2013 @ 7:15 am

    Then I stand corrected though I admit I’m skeptical that the media is getting this detail correct. Calling 911 over a pothole is indeed annoying behavior worth some criticism, and calling 911 400 times probably earned this gentleman a few nicknames by dispatchers.

    Dustin (303dca)

  112. Zimmerman called 911 forty-six times, not 400.

    Icy (9788b4)

  113. Total number from the complex to the police, in one year, Icy,

    narciso (3fec35)

  114. Typical EPWJ: all lies.

    99. The defense had the resources to tell who it was on the tape – why didn’t they share it – because it wasn’t their client now was it. Oh and ringing in people who were not witnesses and all stating it was George on the tape, only in Florida could you bring in people who stand to lose millions in a civil suit to testify on something they didn’t witness, only in Florida…

    This is ridiculous on so many different levels. Who had more resources; the state or the defense?

    The only people the state could find who were willing to testify that it was TM screaming on the 911 call was a hard-of-hearing PhD whose specialty was not speech recognition, but who developed an interest in it as an avocation after he retired and an entertainment industry sound engineer who had a financial interest in selling the voice recognition software he was using.

    As for the defense, they did share what they had. Did you not see the Frye hearing? They had sufficient resources to tell the judge that no one has the resources to determine with anything approaching certainty who is screaming on that tape.

    I sharp contrast to the frauds the state hired, the defense had sufficient resources to produce the chief speech recognition expert at the FBI crime lab, a speech expert who has worked for DARPA, the NSA, and who helped design the voice recognition software for the F-16 program, and a recognized EU wide expert witness in voice recognition. All of whom testified that it is technically impossible to correlate a scream to anyone’s normal speaking voice. You can’t even have a subject try to replicate a scream when not in actual fear for his or her life. It is qualitatively different.

    They were also able to demonstrate that the state’s purported voice experts were charlatans and that none of the amateurish techniques they used were accepted within the actual scientific community. Particularly laughable was the sound engineer’s technique of looping an inadequately long voice sample to trick the software into thinking the sample length was sufficient to analyze. As the defense experts testified, it doesn’t matter how many times you loop a one second voice sample you still only have one second of data.

    Not even this judge would allow those snake oil salesmen the state wanted to testify before the jury to do so.

    Cursing, calling the police, tracking, carrying a weapon, disobeying, making false statements to dispatch, Zimmerman wasn’t a racist he was a dangerous idiot/zealot with a gun.

    Comment by EPWJ (f44e22) — 7/18/2013 @ 9:14 am

    Cursing: TM routinely cursed. GZ did not. Everyone who knew GZ described him as polite and respectful. If cursing is a sign of a maniac, then that would be TM.

    Tracking: GZ did not track TM. That is a lie that won’t die.

    disobeying: there was nothing for GZ to disobey.

    First, the dispatcher Sean Noffke has testified under oath he didn’t tell GZ to do anything. Then we have the transcript.

    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

    It’s short. The part where Noffke suggests GZ doesn’t need to follow TM is on page 2. GZ responds OK.

    Noffke asks for GZ’s home address on the middle of page 3 (last page).

    SK: What’s your apartment number?

    GZ: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it out, I don’t know where this kid is.

    Had GZ been “tracking” TM, GZ would have known where he was. The fact is he followed the dispatcher’s suggestion.

    Carrying a weapon: completely legal. Nor was GZ violating any neighborhood watch rule because he was not patrolling the neighborhood. He was going to the effin’ store.

    More complete fabrications from EPWJ. But not the last:

    Making false statements to dispatch: That’s what the state said. Like the state, EPWJ can’t name one. Which is why the state lost.

    I’ve linked to the transcript of the call he made on the night he shot TM. Find a false statement. Or link to another transcript of another call and find a false statement. You can not do it.

    I on the other hand can link to the criminal information Angela Corey filed, along with the affidavit that was filed with it, and point out lies.

    EPWJ, what’s it going to take for you to stop lying about the facts of this case?

    Steve57 (15e538)

  115. 112.Zimmerman called 911 forty-six times, not 400.

    Comment by Icy (9788b4) — 7/18/2013 @ 11:20 am

    I know this isn’t what you’re suggesting, Icy, but just to nip this sort of speculation in the bud:

    In a vacuum that may still seem like a lot. But then you have to compare that to how many times other residents of GZ’s neighborhood called the Sanford PD.

    From the Reuters article I quoted earlier:

    “He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet,” she said last week. “We didn’t really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn’t just George calling police … we were calling police at least once a week.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  116. Anytime the defense goes right to the hey you have to be really really really sure – even they know their client murdered the kid -its their only play, only one.

    The defense had the resources to tell who it was on the tape – why didn’t they share it – because it wasn’t their client now was it. Oh and ringing in people who were not witnesses and all stating it was George on the tape, only in Florida could you bring in people who stand to lose millions in a civil suit to testify on something they didn’t witness, only in Florida…

    There is so much sheer fabrication in just those 2 short paragraphs, it is remarkable.

    JD (13c50c)

  117. Zimmerman called 911 forty-six times, not 400.

    Comment by Icy (9788b4) — 7/18/2013 @ 11:20 am

    Total number from the complex to the police, in one year, Icy,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/18/2013 @ 11:29 am

    Ah, that’s right.

    Anyway, this all gets past the more basic questions that SEK could answer if he wanted a discussion on this topic. But he was already insulting those who disagree with him before he even read what they had to say. If you disagree with SEK’s reasoning, you are a liar or something.

    I’ve tried to discuss things with this guy a few times, and every single time, as soon as I raise a fundamental point he should address, I get radio silence.

    Suppose someone became extremely good at guessing who is and who is not a criminal. The ugly truth is that their guesses would be drastically out of sync with the proportions of races of sexes. In George’s case, I do not see how you get past his personal history of aiding blacks and his family being one fourth black, given that his supposed racism appears to simply be a sad reflection of a truth George has no control over.

    Dustin (303dca)

  118. EPWJ, are you really saying that the defense not providing proof of whose voice proves it was George? That’s a terrible way to administer justice, and it seems to fall into the CSI fantasy trap you complained about earlier.

    Dustin (303dca)

  119. Yes, JD. It was the state that told the jury that they had to be really, really sure. And then tried to introduce all sorts of speculation to try to convince the jury to “follow their hearts” and convict based upon all the unreasonable doubts they tried to raise about the evidence that clearly vindicated GZ.

    As a general statement this is true:

    116.Anytime the defense goes right to the hey you have to be really really really sure – even they know their client murdered the kid -its their only play, only one.

    It just doesn’t apply to this case. Except as the exact opposite. The state knew for a fact the defense’s client didn’t murder the kid. They knew for a fact GZ acted in self-defense. But their only play was to attempt to poke holes in the evidence. The state acted like a defense counsel that knew they had no case.

    In fact they tried unethically to shift the burden of proof to the defense, and claim it was their obligation to prove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. That’s how crappy their case was.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  120. I think it could be unfair to criticize Zimmerman for calling 911 over potholes and animals. The Sanford FL Emergency Services website states:

    The Emergency Communications Center also provides after-hours dispatch services for the Animal Services Division and other county operational departments and divisions.

    We don’t know if Zimmerman called 911 or if he called another number and was routed or directed to 911 because his call was after hours. Look at the log of Zimmerman’s calls linked by SEK. Most of the calls SEK found objectionable occurred in the evening after the Animal Control and Maintenance departments were closed.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  121. In other words, I don’t agree we know Zimmerman abused 911. He may have been but the Sanford FL emergency website suggests he was using it properly.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  122. DRJ, thanks for the clarification, even if we still don’t know for sure.

    Do I trust the media to get this detail correct, research what George was doing, and avoid the temptation to sensationalize by claiming George was calling 911 over garage doors and potholes? Nope.

    SEK relied pretty heavily on his assertion that this is what George did, but something tells me he won’t deign to back up his claim/insults.

    Dustin (303dca)

  123. EPWJ wrote:

    Reasonable doubt is so much TOTAL BS! It means different things to different people, some people are naturally racked with doubt, it doesnt matter what level of decision making you have or what evidence and the defense went right to it – WITHOUT VIDEO, IN ANY CRIME THERE IS ALWAYS DOUBT.

    There are actual instructions, specified under law, as to what constitutes “reasonable doubt.” It does not mean beyond the flimsiest shadow of a doubt. And while it’s true enough that different jurors — none of whom are trained in the law, since they always exclude lawyers — will understand that differently, there’s really little other choice available, unless you wish to go to some other system such as professional juries or bills of attainder. The system may not be perfect, but it’s about the least imperfect one I can imagine.

    The reasonable doubt standard is set in the hope that it will tilt the playing field in favor of the defense, under the notion that it is better to see a guilty man escape than an innocent man convicted. We don’t get that right 100% of the time either, but we seem to get it right more often than anyone else.

    Anytime the defense goes right to the hey you have to be really really really sure – even they know their client murdered the kid –its their only play, only one.

    No, that’s not true, either: any defense lawyer is going to point that out, in case there are jurors who saw the evidence differently than did the defense attorney. But there are very few Perry Mason cases, in which the defense attorney gets the real killer to break down on the stand and confess, and there reasonable doubt does play a part. In the Zimmerman case, there were no witnesses who saw which man struck the first blow, and such could not be proved, either way. In that case, the benefit of that doubt has to go to the defendant.

    What else would you have us do? Ought we to simply declare Mr Zimmerman guilty, because there was so much political pressure to find him guilty? Should Mr Zimmerman have been found guilty simply because so many people think he was racially biased, even though the actual evidence does not prove the crime with which he was charged? Or perhaps you think Mr Zimmerman should have been convicted because he initiated the whole situation, by calling the police and tailing Mr Martin, sort of like a continuation foul in professional basketball?

    The Dana who has no doubts (3e4784)

  124. Dana, looking at the people who have prosecuted this case or the feds who have sensationalize it, I am very happy to find that reasonable doubt and a jury are still working parts of our justice system. It’s scary to think that someone observed this case and decided this reasonable doubt thing needs to go away.

    Anytime the defense goes right to the hey you have to be really really really sure

    I’m pretty sure they actually proved George’s innocence, relying heavily on a witness’s testimony and the forensic evidence proving that Trayvon was on top of George, beating him, when he was shot. The idea that Trayvon was screaming ‘help’ while beating George’s head into the concrete is far-fetched to say the least, but if he’s that kind of crazy then it only bolsters George’s defense, in my opinion.

    Dustin (303dca)

  125. Zimmerman called 911 forty-six times? Is that true?

    Leviticus (b98400)

  126. It appears to be true. And so?

    Other neighbors told Reuters they were calling the police every week.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  127. Leviticus,

    Zimmerman called police, maintenance, animal control or some other city emergency service 46 times between August 2004 and February 2012, but that doesn’t mean they were all 911 calls. According to the log linked by SEK, some calls were registered to 911 and some were to a non-911 number answered by 911 dispatchers.

    As I mentioned above, the 911 system in Sanford (Seminole County) FL apparently routes or directs callers to 911 after-hours. Thus, for example, the log shows that Zimmerman called 911 on 9/21/05 @ 9PM (call #7) about a stray dog. Did he actually call 911 or was his call routed to 911 because it was after-hours? I suspect it was the latter since the subject line of the call referenced “Animals,” suggesting the call was for Animal Control.

    In addition, some of Zimmerman’s calls were follow-up calls, i.e., he called about a suspicious activity in call #1 and followed-up 5 minutes later with another call about the same activity in call #2.

    Finally, Zimmerman lived in a condo community where neighbors lived in close proximity to each other. I’m sure we’ve all lived in dorms or apartments at some point during our lives. You are more likely to see suspicious activity or have problems with loud neighbors and animals when you live in an area like that.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  128. Leviticus, read DRJ’s recent and prior comments.

    I didn’t get the impression the prosecution was holding anything back, so it is interesting they didn’t report that George reported potholes to 911… unless it turns out that DRJ’s realistic analysis is accurate.

    But it was SEK’s assertion/insult, so I would like to see SEK’s work.

    Dustin (303dca)

  129. Frankly, I don’t understand the hostility to Zimmerman’s calls, especially calls about animals. I find stray animals now and then, and I put them in my back yard while I try to find their owner. If I can’t, I usually wait until the next day to call Animal Control. But I live in a house with a yard. If I lived in a condo without a yard, my choices are to call Animal Control immediately (after hours, it routes to 911 in my area) or to let the stray animal go and possibly get hurt or killed in traffic. I think a lot of people decide not to bother and ignore the animal, but I think it speaks well of Zimmerman that he’s not one of those people.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  130. I don’t know if this is true in Sanford but in my community, after-hours maintenance, animal, and other service-related calls were routed to 911 starting in the early 2000’s. However, as calls to 911 increased over the years and people became accustomed to having it, city officials added a non-emergency line that was answered by 911 dispatchers — primarily so they could prioritize calls. My guess is something similar happened in Sanford, which is why Zimmerman’s early calls were to 911 but most of his calls after 2006-2007 were to the non-emergency 911 number.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  131. I find stray animals now and then, and I put them in my back yard while I try to find their owner. If I can’t, I usually wait until the next day to call Animal Control.

    I do that all the time. It drives my wife and my dogs nuts.

    I’ve never called a pothole in to anyone, but I have been annoyed when the same pothole is in the backroad for a month.

    I wish George had waited for the police to arrive to handle the suspicious person that night. Trayvon was dangerous, and I wish George had appreciated that, even though Trayvon is ultimately responsible for the path he was on.

    The more I learn about George’s mindset, the more I understand his poor judgment. He had befriended that victim at the onset of a rash of burglaries, some provably from residents. If that was happening to my neighbors and my family was terrified, would I report someone matching the description of the burglars? Absolutely. Would I follow them on foot with a gun? Not if I didn’t actually see them do something really bad, but I can see having a strong urge to find someone after they lose me if I’m suspicious they are up to something.

    SEK is trying too hard to take strong evidence that George was a zealously good samaritan and show he was a racist.

    Dustin (303dca)

  132. Reasonable doubt is so much TOTAL BS! It means different things to different people, some people are naturally racked with doubt, it doesnt matter what level of decision making you have or what evidence and the defense went right to it – WITHOUT VIDEO, IN ANY CRIME THERE IS ALWAYS DOUBT.

    And here a liberal acknowledges the basic tenet of their creed: They don’t trust their fellow human beings to be able to act with reason or in good faith. That is why the answer to them is to always just let the “experts” make all the decisions and tell the rest of us what to do.

    JVW (23867e)

  133. I’ve never called a pothole in to anyone, but I have been annoyed when the same pothole is in the backroad for a month.

    With all due respect, Dustin, do you see the correlation between the two? I am not advocating calling 911 for these issues, but when I lived in Boston I had an elderly neighbor who got so tired of reporting broken street lights, potholes, knocked-down street signs, etc. to her city councilman and having nothing done that she started reporting them directly to the police. When they told her to buzz off (politely, I am sure) she started calling 911. She received a visit from the cops who admonished her about her behavior, but wouldn’t you know it, suddenly the city managed to come out to our neighborhood and start making repairs.

    JVW (23867e)

  134. Dustin, you are being very kind. I have been in academia for a lot of years, and it is AAALLLL about race to most academics. I don’t know what to say.

    Quick story. In my first year at a position, there was a new faculty orientation at a local botanical garden on a weekend. I drove out to the place, and the garden was officially closed except for us. I pulled into the parking lot, and three Hispanic people ran up, demanding in broken English to know what I was doing (the garden was supposed to be closed, again). I showed them the invitation letter. They nodded, smiled, and pointed me to the small conference center inside the gardens.

    There is an African American faculty member in “my year.” He attended the same orientation I just described, and what I related also happened to him. He went on and on that he had been “profiled” by “racists.”

    No one said anything. That includes me.

    Now, I am not an officially recognized “minority,” but I do know how it feels to be differentially treated, snubbed, and treated with suspicion.

    But it’s not the same thing.

    So people like SEK are constitutionally unable to see things without an overlay of racism. Period.

    It’s, ah, not a flexible mindset.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  135. JVW – amen.

    JD (21af44)

  136. People are getting confused here. I have no knowledge of Sanford practice but a lot city/county dispatching is done from a central call center that is reached via different numbers (remember our discussion of how SWATing is done). The 911 service strictly speaking includes location database services from telco that other routes into the dispatch call center would lack.

    SPQR (5557ef)

  137. The education system for the past 20+ years taught people to value diversity above all else. Thus, it’s no surprise that the people who spend much of their time in education — the young, the academics, those who attended graduate school, and even those who did poorly in school (so they have to attend longer) — have internalized this lesson and end up valuing diversity above all else.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  138. What is amusing, DRJ, is having them define it.

    I mean, there is currently an “Asian quota” at UC Berkeley—similar to the “Jewish quota” from the 1930s.

    But that’s not racist. You know?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  139. 106. Comment by Steve57 (15e538) — 7/18/2013 @ 10:37 am

    “Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We’ve got to face that.”

    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., 1961.

    This sounds early, because he had seven years to pay attentuion to that, but perhaps there were other priorities. In 1967 he started getting interested in poverty, and maybe he might have moved into that.

    One thing: he was against the change of word “Negro” to “black” (especially the word black maybe because it is used in terms like “black-hearted” etc) and the change happened only over his dead body.

    Attention was called to this quote by an article Jason L. Reilly wrote this week (Tuesday, July 16, 2013, page A15) in the Wall Street Journal.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030.html

    The article ends:

    “Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We’ve got to face that. And we’ve got to do something about our moral standards,” Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. told a congregation in 1961. “We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can’t keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves.”

    He writes today

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323309404578613941506544024.html?mod=wsj_streaming_stream

    or maybe try, but this link will change what it links to in the future:
    http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-280444/

    He wrote that he was accused of fabircating that quote. But it comes from a James Baldwin profile of King that appeared in a 1961 issue of Harper’s Magazine. And he said it be found via Google:

    http://harpers.org/archive/1961/02/the-dangerous-road-before-martin-luther-king/

    February 1961, Available in PDF or microfiche. Only for subscribers. You can subscribe and get access to the entire archive for $19.97.

    It’s included in the book “The Portable Sixties Reader” and you can even buy the original magazine on Amazon.com for $19.95
    http://www.amazon.com/s/?tag=patterspontif-20&link_code=wsw&_encoding=UTF-8&search-alias=aps&field-keywords=february+1961+harpers&Submit.x=0Submit.y=0

    Here you can read the quote for yourself in a different book (Martin Luther King, Jr.: A Profile
    edited by C. Eric Lincoln, where teh Baldwin article is alao reprinted) in context:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=qErYcHScIwcC&pg=PA97&dq=Negroes+St.+Louis+crimes+%22white+world%22+King&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WE7oUZKCJsWx4AOP6ICQCw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Negroes%20St.%20Louis%20crimes%20%22white%20world%22%20King&f=false

    Anotehr thing Martin Luther King said they had to stop doing was saying to white people that they support segregation, when they don’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  140. Simon, that’s a good example and I think it’s not uncommon. It is frustrating to see that many folks are interpreting a lot of things as racism that aren’t. It perpetuates a lot of problems. And in fact, it leads to racism.

    With all due respect, Dustin, do you see the correlation between the two?

    Oh, I definitely do. In hindsight, I should have let the city know about the pothole. I really think DRJ is on to something and George was just calling a non emergency line that was answered by a 911 dispatcher, but your example of someone just desperate to get her government to do something is probably true more often than we realize.

    And imagine how many potholes and animal shelters you could fund with the money used to prosecute George Zimmerman for a murder the investigator said he didn’t commit.

    Dustin (303dca)

  141. SPQR,

    You have to clarify that for me. If you’re saying that a 911 call is a 911 call, I agree. The point I’m trying to make is the various city departments (like animal control and maintenance) may route their calls to 911 after-hours, or they may have recordings that direct the caller to call 911 with after-hours emergency calls.

    Like you, I have no idea how it works in Sanford but I know it works that way in some communities.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  142. Dustin wrote:

    I’m pretty sure they actually proved George’s innocence, relying heavily on a witness’s testimony and the forensic evidence proving that Trayvon was on top of George, beating him, when he was shot.

    I wouldn’t go as far as to say that they “actually proved George’s innocence.” Mr Martin could have thought he’d won enough and was backing away and getting off Mr Zimmerman when Mr Zimmerman pulled his weapon and fired. I don’t think that happened, but it is a reasonable possibility. Mr Zimmerman could also have started the fist fight, which would have a serious negative impact on his claim of self-defense, and still found himself losing it by the time he pulled out his weapon. No proof either way, but certainly reasonable doubt.

    The Dana with reasonable doubts (3e4784)

  143. if Mr. Zimmerman were a racist person there would be tons more evidence

    it’s like if Food Stamp were a capitalist

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  144. I don’t know if it’s true but I heard today the Sheriff’s Dept spent $300,000 on the trial and the jury cost (housing, food, entertainment, etc.) an additional $33,000.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  145. Dustin, DRJ, this clip from “Annie Hall” shows the “victim” mindset:

    http://youtu.be/SiSPr4T6g3I

    Sigh.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  146. Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/18/2013 @ 1:06 pm

    Trayvon was dangerous, and I wish George had appreciated that,

    If he was really what he thought he might be.

    Actually, if things were worse than his suspicions. When Trayvon ran away from him, that didn’t make him look dangerous.

    George’s story seems to be that when Trayvon when confronted him, Trayvon said “do you have a problem?” and George was quick to say no, but Trayvon wasn’t satisfied with that and said “You do now” etc.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  147. I don’t know if it’s true but I heard today the Sheriff’s Dept spent $300,000 on the trial and the jury cost (housing, food, entertainment, etc.) an additional $33,000.

    But certainly all the media and gawkers who came to Sanford for the trial provided a shot in the arm to the community too, right? I would imagine that hotels, bars, and restaurants were full in the period leading up to and including the trial. I remember reading a story about how one of the recent mega-trials (Casey Anthony perhaps?) had been a huge boon to the community’s tax base, even after factoring in the costs of holding the trial.

    JVW (23867e)

  148. if Mr. Zimmerman were a racist person there would be tons more evidence

    it’s like if Food Stamp were a capitalist

    This

    JD (b63a52)

  149. DRJ, I am saying that 911 calls and non-emergency calls could be handled in same call center by same personnel and could be logged in same database, produced in discovery together etc.

    SPQR (5557ef)

  150. Comment by The Dana with reasonable doubts (3e4784) — 7/18/2013 @ 1:28 pm

    Mr Zimmerman could also have started the fist fight,

    Not really, and even Rachel Jeantel was careful only to suggest that. She has George Zimmerman speaking aggressively to Trayvon Martin “(Whatcha doing around here?”) although she still has Trayvon speaking first “why are you following me”) and she has Trayvon being surprised by (a tired out hard breathinbg) George Zimmerman rather than the other way around, but she’s not at all clear about who started the fight, or even who said, according to her, “get off”

    The reason is, it is in fact rather clear, from the physical evidence, who started the fight.

    Trayvon Martin did, because:

    1) There were no other wounds or injuries to Trayvon Martin other than the gunshot.

    2) George Zimmerman was punched in the nose, and his head was banged against the pavement.

    Now unless George Zimmerman started by firing a bullet into Trayvon’s heart, and the mortally wounded Trayvon responded by vigorously attacking George Zimemrman for at least 45 seconds, Trayvon Martin started the fight.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  151. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that they “actually proved George’s innocence.” Mr Martin could have thought he’d won enough and was backing away and getting off Mr Zimmerman when Mr Zimmerman pulled his weapon and fired. I don’t think that happened, but it is a reasonable possibility. Mr Zimmerman could also have started the fist fight, which would have a serious negative impact on his claim of self-defense, and still found himself losing it by the time he pulled out his weapon. No proof either way, but certainly reasonable doubt.

    Comment by The Dana with reasonable doubts (3e4784) — 7/18/2013

    I appreciate the challenging thought. I don’t think we have a reason to think George attacked Trayvon, based on the injuries. I think that is disproven to some extent (to me beyond reasonable doubt). As far as the beating ending and Trayvon retreating when George shot him… that is what Guy seemed to suggest happened and I didn’t understand the basis.

    Didn’t Corey go on and on about how the screaming stops the instant the gun is fired? That is totally incompatible with Trayvon stopping and retreating and then being shot in cold blood by an angry victim.

    But I’ll grant this is possible. Anything is possible. Is it reasonable doubt? To me, it isn’t. I personally think the defense went far enough to say they proved George’s innocence. I hope they didn’t have to… it would mean this country is practically lost.

    Dustin (303dca)

  152. That’s true, JVW. Maybe they should have more of these trials.

    Thanks for clarifying that, SPQR. I agree.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  153. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    Trayvon was dangerous, and I wish George had appreciated that,

    If he was really what he thought he might be.

    Well, that’s just it. Mr Zimmerman thought he was behaving suspiciously, as though he was sizing up potential burglary targets, but we can’t know what kind of person Mr Zimmerman relly thought Mr Martin was.

    Mr Martin turned out to be very dangerous, but we can’t know whether it was Mr Martin who attacked Mr Zimmerman (more probable than not) or the other way around (less probable, but still possible.) Without absolutely knowing who attacked first, we can’t know, even now, just how dangerous Mr Martin was.

    We also don’t know if Mr Martin would have backed off from beating Mr Zimmerman in another few seconds, or continued on to try to actually kill him; that, too, is missing evidence in an assessment of how dangerous Mr Martin was. So, if we can’t know, with certainty, how dangerous Mr Martin really was, even after the fact, it’s pretty tough to think that Mr Zimmerman should better have appreciated how dangerous he was before the incident.

    A police officer would have assumed that Mr Martin was absolutely dangerous, and used his training to handle the situation differently than did Mr Zimmerman.

    The Dana who profiles, just like everyone else does (3e4784)

  154. DRJ, in a previous career, I did some 911 location service related software consulting.

    SPQR (5557ef)

  155. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    The reason is, it is in fact rather clear, from the physical evidence, who started the fight.

    Trayvon Martin did, because:

    1) There were no other wounds or injuries to Trayvon Martin other than the gunshot.

    2) George Zimmerman was punched in the nose, and his head was banged against the pavement.

    Now unless George Zimmerman started by firing a bullet into Trayvon’s heart, and the mortally wounded Trayvon responded by vigorously attacking George Zimemrman for at least 45 seconds, Trayvon Martin started the fight.

    Those are the more probable events, but far from proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Heck, Mr Zimmerman could have swung first and missed or just landed a puny blow for all we know, and then found himself badly losing a fight he started. It is my belief that Mr Martin attacked first, but I would never say that I know that.

    The forensic scientist Dana (3e4784)

  156. Comment by The Dana who profiles, just like everyone else does (3e4784) — 7/18/2013 @ 1:49

    Mr Zimmerman thought he was behaving suspiciously, as though he was sizing up potential burglary targets, but we can’t know what kind of person Mr Zimmerman relly thought Mr Martin was.

    George Zimmerman actually could not make up his mind because, all told, the behavior of Trayvon Martin, didn’t fit any profile.

    “I don’t know what his deal is” he said.

    After a while, he couldn’t have thought he was too dangerous, because he started running away from him.

    Trayvon Martin was clearly afraid of George Zimmerman, or who George Zimmerman might call, or so it appeared. The guilty flee when no man pursues, so that made him look guilty of something important. So Geortge Zimmerman started chasing him, with confidence and urgency, and then stopped when asked to by the dispatcher.

    (The way they later met up is a bit of a mystery, but maybe could be figured out with some better maps and soem testimony)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  157. Mr Martin turned out to be very dangerous, but we can’t know whether it was Mr Martin who attacked Mr Zimmerman (more probable than not) or the other way around (less probable, but still possible.)

    Heck, Mr Zimmerman could have swung first and missed or just landed a puny blow for all we know, and then found himself badly losing a fight he started. It is my belief that Mr Martin attacked first, but I would never say that I know that.

    I’d say it’s actually almost certain that it was Trayvon Martin who attacked George Zimmerman and not the other way around. Almost certain. That’s not beyond a reasonable doubt, but it’s close.

    Maybe something could have started in some way we don’t understand, but George Zimmerman had no reason to physically confront him, what with a police car or cars ready to meet him where he was. What did he need to fight him for? Talk to him, maybe. But more likely, keep his distance. And he’d lost sight of him.

    At most his interest would have been to see where he was and what he was doing, or if he was still there, and have the police question him to see if he had a right to be in the gated community.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  158. What an emergency services abuser! He called an average of once every other month!!!

    Icy (9788b4)

  159. It’s also clear that Benjamin Crump et al think Trayvon Martin started the fight, or else they’d have had Rachel Jeantel tell a lie that had George Zimmerman starting it, but they were afraid to. Trayvon Martin might have also said something on the phone to whomever he was talking to, so Parks and Crump might know for a fact how it started (although they’d have some doubt as to what the ophysical evidemnce could prove).

    It is undeniable that there were no other wounds or injuries to Trayvon Martin other than the gunshot, and that George Zimmerman was punched in the nose, and his head was banged against the pavement. George Zimmerman never got in a blow, if he was at all trying to do that, rather than escape and get the police. What did he need to fight him for?

    Now if you want to find some more or less rational (but not legitimate) reason for Trayvon Martin to attack George Zimmerman you could say
    that he might have been afraid of George Zimmerman, or more probably, whom he was calling.

    He couldn’t have worried too much about that being the police. He hadn’t done anything in Sanford.

    If he was afraid, it would have been of a gang.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  160. George Zimmerman didn’t call just about men.

    On October 2, 2010, he called about a female in a blue Jeep Grand Cherokee yelling at elderly passsengers with the vehicle rocking back and forth.

    And not just about blacks. On June 24, 2007 he called about 2 Hispnaic makes and a white male. It turned out the police already knew about them -they had spoken to them about 20 minutes before and they said they were locked out of their vehicle.

    On September 23, 2005 he called because his little sister had called him because of something about a green Mustang with out of state license plates and a white male (WM) driver.

    On November 3, 2009 a white Fords 2 door sedan cutting people off also had a white male (WM) driver. Maybe it was a county vehicle, or maybe that was the vehicle being cut off.

    On January 1, 2010, something about a (white) male and a female in the back of a pickup truck arguing and the man hitting something.

    In the beginning it was more about cars but also about open garage doors.

    He also called about disturbances. Something on August 21, 2009 about an intoxicated pedestrian and a silver 2 door BMW and a landlord wanting rent and a home in foreclosure.

    On June 16, 2009 something about somebody playing basketball ans jumping over the fence ans going into the pool area and trashing the bathroom.

    On June 10, 2009 a report that a fire alarm is going off.

    On January 12, 2010 a report of what might be a forced entry into his neighbor, no one home. This is very unlike his neighbor. The police conclude the garage door was left open by mistake.

    On February 27, 2010 something about a residence – the second or third from the entrance –
    where multiple vehicles constantly come, people run out and then come back in and there are people hanging out all night – constantly different people there — it’s an ongoing problem. Police visit and there’s nothing going on. Garage closed, no foot traffic. The call is listed as coming form an anonymous male but I guess it was from GZ’s cell phone.

    On June 12, 2010 about what seems to be party involving 50 people whom he doesn’t believe live on the neighborhood causing S16 (roadway obstruction) on the roadways.

    June 26, 2010: Another loud party. Both Saturday night. Both at the clubhouse (spelled CLUBBHOUSE)

    April 22, 2011 – a 7-9 year old child walking alone on a on a busy street after 7 PM on a Friday night.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  161. 141. …I don’t think that happened, but it is a reasonable possibility. Mr Zimmerman could also have started the fist fight, which would have a serious negative impact on his claim of self-defense, and still found himself losing it by the time he pulled out his weapon. No proof either way, but certainly reasonable doubt.

    Comment by The Dana with reasonable doubts (3e4784) — 7/18/2013 @ 1:28 pm

    Dana, you need to read the jury instructions.

    A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt.

    You are imagining alternative scenarios for which there is no evidence. You even admit you don’t believe some of those scenarios yourself.

    Had the jury engaged in the speculation that you’re engaging in, as the state hoped and pleaded for them to do, they would have been going against their instructions. Fortunately for the sake of justice the jury did not.

    The frustrating thing about this case is that for people to convince themselves GZ is guilty of something they have to ignore quite a bit. I expect people like EPWJ to ignore all the evidence in favor of a false narrative that has been repeatedly disproven.

    But I expected more from you, Dana. Why do you insist on calling what you can speculate and imagine “reasonable doubt,” when that’s the opposite of a reasonable doubt?

    All the physical evidence points to self-defense. There is zero evidence saying otherwise. It is therefore unreasonable to pretend this is anything except a case of self-defense.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  162. Comment by Steve57 (15e538) — 7/18/2013 @ 3:53 pm

    The frustrating thing about this case is that for people to convince themselves GZ is guilty of something they have to ignore quite a bit

    If they know some of the facts. But you do see thiss with the media. There really isn’t any question.

    Why do you insist on calling what you can speculate and imagine “reasonable doubt,” when that’s the opposite of a reasonable doubt?

    In the closing arguments George Zimmerman’s defense attorney said he wished they could have athird option to check off – completely innocent.

    Dana said he didn’t think they “actually proved George’s innocence” but it was certainly reasonable doubt (of guilt)

    Reasonable doubt is from the viewpoint of guilt.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  163. 160. Reasonable doubt is from the viewpoint of guilt.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/18/2013 @ 4:28 pm

    Yes, I know.

    It’s just that when I read Dana’s speculation about alternate theories, what could have happened even though all the evidence supports GZ’s highly consistent version of events, I don’t believe he understands what constitutes reasonable doubt. It’s possible to force doubts about GZ’s innocence, but there’s no evidence that he’s guilty.

    To that degree I think the state succeeded in shifting the burden of proof to the state in the court of public opinion. They didn’t do so in the courtroom. But in the court of public opinion they did so sufficiently that they can call GZ a murderer. The legal standard is that GZ is innocent until proven guilty. They failed to prove him guilty. But since he didn’t prove himself innocent, a level of proof he was never required to meet, they can run around and call him a murderer.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  164. *But since he didn’t prove himself innocent beyond all possible doubts…*

    Steve57 (15e538)

  165. Indeed, lots of things “could” have happened. But those scenarios all require inventing new facts to support them. They are not alternate “versions” of events related to the facts we have.

    SPQR (768505)

  166. 39

    I deliberately didn’t bring up the word “reasonable” or any of its cognates because reasonable human beings don’t call 911 over potholes.

    I expect SEK also believes reasonable people don’t carry guns and that is enough to make Zimmerman a bad guy in his eyes.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  167. 163

    … but there’s no evidence that he’s guilty …

    As the jury instructions said reasonable doubt can also arise from lack of evidence. I believe the evidence showed it was more likely than not self defense (the standard in Ohio) but that it is arguable whether it showed it was self defense beyond a reasonable doubt. However that is not the standard however much the prosecution would have wished otherwise.

    James B. Shearer (6f717f)

  168. And that is not and was never the standard.

    SPQR (768505)

  169. 168. As the jury instructions said reasonable doubt can also arise from lack of evidence.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (6f717f) — 7/18/2013 @ 8:05 pm

    That would have been reason to have reasonable doubt about the state’s wild speculative theories about what could have happened.

    The lack of evidence for any of them raised reasonable doubt about them.

    There was evidence; it was just entirely consistent with GZ’s assertion of self-defense.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  170. This is the problem, every piece of evidence, lined up, every accusation leveled against him was utterly bogus, but it doesn’t matter like the LAPD review of Dorner, the same crew idolized him for his cold blooded murder of police officers, same with Mumia, that gave him credibility in some of these same circles

    narciso (3fec35)

  171. 168. I believe the evidence showed it was more likely than not self defense (the standard in Ohio) but that it is arguable whether it showed it was self defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (6f717f) — 7/18/2013 @ 8:05 pm

    This is why I say the state couldn’t shift the burden of proof to the defense in the courtroom, but they did so sufficiently in the court of public opinion.

    It was not GZ’s job to prove anything. West and O’Mara did not have to prove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. The state had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ didn’t act in self-defense

    This is the frustrating thing. The fact that we’re even talking as if the evidence had to prove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. This is why I’m so dismayed by Dana’s version of what is and what is not reasonable doubt.

    Had we the Napoleonic Code then perhaps the state’s imaginative theories might have raised sufficient doubt to make it impossible for the defense to overcome the presumption of guilt against GZ.

    But that’s not our system.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  172. “Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We’ve got to face that. And we’ve got to do something about our moral standards,” Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. told a congregation in 1961. “We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can’t keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves.”

    That’s a fascinating quote because the general socio-economic trends at that time still hadn’t gone through the “free love” 1960s, the “do your own thang” 1970s, the politically-correct 1980s-1990s, and the super dumbed-down nature of today.

    I recall a time when I sensed — but not with the feelings of disquiet I have today — that many blacks felt alienated from or resentful towards anyone — including Martin Luther King Jr — who wasn’t rabidly liberal, rabidly leftwing. That a John F Kennedy, as another icon of the 1960s, if he was just a wee bit less super liberal about civil rights than preferred, would therefore be discounted as a fuddy-duddy, perhaps even a reactionary. That it was uncool and unhip for anyone — black or, of course, white, etc — to be even politically moderate, much less conservative.

    I think that mindset has, if anything, hardened and solidified over the past 50 years, so even the news of, for example, the city of Detroit declaring bankruptcy today won’t alter a decades-long wave of senseless, leftist sentiment that has been roiling black America (or, for that matter, the many enclaves of modern-day-liberalism-gone-berserk white America, etc).

    Mark (3cc14a)

  173. People are getting confused here. I have no knowledge of Sanford practice but a lot city/county dispatching is done from a central call center that is reached via different numbers (remember our discussion of how SWATing is done). The 911 service strictly speaking includes location database services from telco that other routes into the dispatch call center would lack.

    Comment by SPQR (5557ef) — 7/18/2013 @ 1:22 pm

    In Georgia where I now reside, we have basically the same Enhanced 911 system as in Florida. They were implemented at about the same time too. Need a pothole fixed, dog caught, noisy neighbor music, or someone chasing you with a knife, you call 911. The call center located here, is located a few miles from my residence, and services 6 counties, and also handles nearly all of the city calls at night.

    In fact, some locations do not even publish their non-emergency phone numbers, and the only means of contacting them at all is thru 911, unless someone from that agency gives you a number for a direct line. The Enhanced 911 system automatically routes your call to the appropriate dispatcher for your location, even for cell phone traffic. Need to speak to the chief of your local PD? Dial 911, and one of the communications officers will transfer you to his secretary.

    And all calls after 5PM are routed thru 911 even if you happen to possess and dial the Non-emergency number. Even if you can only dial 911, and then pass out, it shows your name and address of your residence, or it can triangulate your position if it is a cell phone.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  174. A police officer would have assumed that Mr Martin was absolutely dangerous, and used his training to handle the situation differently than did Mr Zimmerman.

    Just like the cops in New York that shot 9 bystanders and missed the actual target (who killed himself). And the cops that kill folks handing over their wallets. Etc.

    If the only difference was plain clothes officer and a badge–The cop would probably not have been prosecuted and T.M. would still be dead (and probably would not have took 40+ seconds of beating either).

    In general, cops have a higher rate of shooting bystanders vs armed citizens (something like 5:1 last I read).

    My guess, if T.M. did not believe that G.Z. was “looking for a good time” (guessing unlikely as T.M. saw and probably heard G.Z. phone calls)…

    T.M. probably decided to open a can of Whop Ass on G.Z. to teach him a lesson about snitching (how many minutes and cops still had not shown up?).

    Between T.M. love of fighting, paranoid from drugs (and probably paranoid because he was high and did not want to cops to catch him)… T.M. suckered punch T.M. in the nose (as T.M. learned to do in a recent fight per phone data) and, maybe, was not planning on killing G.Z.–Until T.M. saw/felt the gun–Per G.Z., T.M. then said G.Z. was going to die.

    Would T.M. have killed G.Z. given the opportunity? God only knows. G.Z. did not know, and I don’t think T.M. knew ether.

    G.Z. took pounding for >40 seconds (911 recording?) before shooting T.M…. G.Z. went above and beyond giving T.M. “chances” to de-escalate.

    As far as I am concerned–Cops are civilians. Just like G.Z. (and T.M., et. al.) are civilians too…

    There are good and bad cops. Just like good/bad citizens in general.

    In this case, there is a whole bunch of “bad actors” that wanted to use cops (and later prosecutors and a judge) as their own brown shirts. It looks like these folks are just about judgement proof (there were cops, IT tech, and a prosecutor that did refuse to fold–they demonstrated morality and bravery).

    The only government employees are that not civilians, are in the military (and they are not governed by civilian law–Military law).

    BfC (a1cf00)

  175. @173 Mark,

    These quotes from Booker T. Washington are also helpful and relevant to this case. Allen West quoted them on Fox.

    Ratbeach (f5aad4)

  176. December 7 1941. All the reports indicated or PROFILED JAPANESE people as being responsible for the Pearl Harbor “work place violence”.
    Sept 11, 2001, 19 “men of MIDDLE EASTERN color” were PROFILED as being responsible for violence.
    April 4, 1968. A WHITE MAN was accused of violence because of his RACE!!
    November 22, 1963, A White MARINE VETERAN was profiled and accused of killing a Police Officer in Dallas, and of shooting JFK!!! I think the MARINES should have filed suit because of the PROFILING.

    Gus (694db4)

  177. Sirhan Sirhan and Mumia, were framed. Fo-shizzle.

    Gus (694db4)

  178. These quotes from Booker T. Washington

    Ratbeach, his quotes from even longer ago than the early 1960s’ statement from MLK are shocking. Shocking because they illustrate how human nature (ie, the type of person and behavior that Washington was describing) — in the most negative, manipulative way imaginable — truly doesn’t change from generation to generation.

    It wasn’t that long ago that when people said the Republican Party was the “party of Lincoln,” and how such things and people therefore reflected a more just, decent society, I admit to musing that was, well, ancient history. I assumed that socio-political trends had changed dramatically from then to now, and they had to be seen in a different context from year to year. IOW, I admit to assuming that the reality was that conservative whites in the South of the 1800s were Democrats at that time, and their successors over 100 years later would be the ones switching to the Republican Party.

    WRONG!

    I have since discovered that white liberal/Democrat Woodrow Wilson initiated Jim Crow laws, that white liberal/Democrat FDR was a bigot in both private and public, and that white/Democrat, pro-public-healthcare, anti-conservative Harry Truman spoke and wrote in a way that would make even a Klu Klux Klanner blush.

    The motto of today: As much as things change, some things never change.

    Mark (3cc14a)

  179. Mark, LIBTARDS hijack the good works of others for their CAUSE. I was a DEMOCRAT for many years, until I realized that the people, and candidates that I supported, WERE FRAUDS. JFK, was THE LAST Democrat of principle. And JFK was a flawed man in his personal life. I have a tiny modicum of respect for Joseph Lieberman, but even former Senator Lieberman has YET to UNDERSTAND what the DEM PARTY has become. Furthermore, the DEMOTARD PARTY continues to TALKING POINT LIE and DEFAME the GOP. The GOP is not FAR RIGHT by any stretch of the imagination. The LEFT is MARXIST and ALL IN via GOVERNMENT CONTROL and SOCIALISM.

    Gus (694db4)

  180. Mark, human nature doesn’t change. You can go back much further than Booker T. Washington.

    For instance, on welfare as an effective means of lifting people out of poverty:

    I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. — I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. There is no country in the world where so many provisions are established for them; so many hospitals to receive them when they are sick or lame, founded and maintained by voluntary charities; so many alms-houses for the aged of both sexes, together with a solemn general law made by the rich to subject their estates to a heavy tax for the support of the poor. Under all these obligations, are our poor modest, humble, and thankful; and do they use their best endeavours to maintain themselves, and lighten our shoulders of this burthen? — On the contrary, I affirm that there is no country in the world in which the poor are more idle, dissolute, drunken, and insolent. The day you passed that act, you took away from before their eyes the greatest of all inducements to industry, frugality, and sobriety, by giving them a dependance on somewhat else than a careful accumulation during youth and health, for support in age or sickness. In short, you offered a premium for the encouragement of idleness, and you should not now wonder that it has had its effect in the increase of poverty. Repeal that law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. St. Monday, and St. Tuesday, will cease to be holidays. SIX days shalt thou labour, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them.

    Benjamin Franklin, The London Chronicle, November 29, 1766

    Idle, dissolute, drunken, and insolent. These days we just call that the entitlement mentality.

    Steve57 (15e538)

  181. The reason you seem to have a crime rate higher among blacks everywhere, even in South Africa, is probably for two reasons:

    1) Residential housing segregation. Not segregation between one block and another or between different kinds of quarters, but whole neighborhoods. This in itself did not cause anything, but allowed people of different races to experience different law enforcement environments. This kind of segregation began about the time of World War I.

    2) A tendency not to care about what happened in the black neighborhoods – plus money pressure, which government is always under, which causes services to be reduced and especially not increased when it needs to be, plus targeting of black areas by organized crime for the sale of drugs and the appointment of “liberal” judges who opposed the ideas of punishment.

    You could call both of these causes white racism, but it racism in a different way than commonly claimed.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  182. No Shootings or Killings for 363 Days, but the Fight Is Far From Over – New York Times July 19, 2013, page A17

    This is about 20 square blocks in East New York, Brooklyn.

    There is an organization attempting to stop murders:

    The founder of Man Up!, Andre T. Mitchell, said the group was trained in public health approaches developed first in Chicago by the Cure Violence Initiative. The creator of the initiative, Gary Slutkin, an epidemiologist, advocated fighting violence as if it were an epidemic, so that it was essential to interrupt its spread — just as a contagious disease is contained or prevented.

    Even though this does not use the police, and even though they don’t talk to the police,they admit without a police force, this would not work:

    Asked Thursday about Man Up!, officials in the Police Department did not reply.

    Mr. Mitchell said that safe streets required a strong police presence, but that the community had a primary role in keeping the peace.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  183. Via Instapundit, this post analyzes what Zimmerman’s calls to 911 tell us about his views of black men.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  184. Mr. SEK has to blog a certain way for to be maximally successful in his chosen field

    that’s just america anymore and I’m sure in your chosen field there are certain compromises what you make for to be successful and to be a good provider for your family

    unless you live in Utah in which case no of course you don’t make any compromises but you have to remember not everybody lives in Utah

    it’s just not logistically feasible

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  185. Which part, pikachu, ignorant which would be embarassing or maliciously misrepresenting facts,
    which is worse,

    narciso (3fec35)

  186. facts?

    whaaaaaaa?

    barack obama’s america does not deal in petty “facts”

    narratives, my friend

    that’s the future

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  187. Mr. Feets – I thought plastics were the future, but nobody tells me nothing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. plastics were the future but then after that it was narratives

    if you can find a company what makes plastic narratives

    you buy some stock, hear me?

    sell dupont and buy buy buy

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  189. Plastics are evil, make polar bears cry, daley.

    narciso (3fec35)


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