Patterico's Pontifications

7/13/2013

The Zimmerman Trial Is Not About Whether Trayvon Martin “Deserved” to Die; UPDATE: Reports Say Jury Has Reached a Verdict; UPDATE: NOT GUILTY

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 4:13 pm

A reporter named Ben Montgomery cluelessly reports in the Orlando Sentinel:

George Zimmerman shot a 17-year-old through the heart on a rainy night in February 2012. Now, finally, nearly 17 months later, a jury will try to decide whether the dead boy deserved it.

Zimmerman contends he did.

No. A thousand times: no.

It would be really great if Big Media could get this point right, because it’s as important as it is simple.

This trial is not about whether Trayvon Martin “deserved” to die.

It is about whether the prosecution can prove to a unanimous jury beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence submitted in court that George Zimmerman did not act in reasonable self defense.

Period, end of story.

I have spoken with a lot of people about this case, and some people don’t buy every aspect of George Zimmerman’s story. They think it’s too perfect; or they think he profiled Martin; or they think George Zimmerman was a coward with a gun.

I don’t buy any of that — but even if you do, none of that relieves the state of the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. Even if you think he’s a lying racist, the prosecution still has to prove he did not act in self-defense. And even cowards with guns have a right to self defense.

And the trial is not about whether Martin “deserved” it. I suspect the whole thing was largely a giant misunderstanding. And if I’m right, Martin didn’t “deserve” to die.

That doesn’t mean Zimmerman is guilty.

I have decided it’s time for a new thread. Comments are open.

UPDATE: Reports say the jury has reached a verdict. Stand by.

UPDATE x2: The jury found Zimmerman not guilty.

That was the right verdict.

774 Responses to “The Zimmerman Trial Is Not About Whether Trayvon Martin “Deserved” to Die; UPDATE: Reports Say Jury Has Reached a Verdict; UPDATE: NOT GUILTY”

  1. Perception is reality, and for many of our friends on the left, it doesn’t even matter if Mr Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, if he was being whaled upon, or if he had areal and genuine fear that his life was in danger. The creepy ass cracker shot a noble black man through the heart, so he deserves to go to prison.

    The Dana who got in comment #1 (af9ec3)

  2. I won the thread. I’m now Steve2500.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  3. Darn, I thought comments were going to be shut off on that thread at 2500.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  4. skittles are bad for your teeth

    but tea is chock-full of naturally-occurring fluoride

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  5. Really good post. I agree 100% (except that I kinda think that Zimmerman did profile Martin – probably not malignantly or intentionally).

    “I suspect the whole thing was largely a giant misunderstanding.” Absolutely right.

    Leviticus (2c236c)

  6. Leviticus, in some way, I think it’s pretty clear that Zimmerman profiled Trayvon. He thought that people who ‘look high’ and are out at night, especially in the weather, are suspicious and possibly burglars, right? The aspect of the profiling charge that bothers me is that George was essentially framed as racially profiling, when he didn’t seem to even know Trayvon’s race with any certainty until after the call was under way.

    But profiling is just a word for exercising judgment about whether something is suspicious.

    —-

    That the jury is asking questions about manslaughter says to me that at least some of the jury have rejected the self defense defense (or do not understand its impact). It boggles my mind… the state obviously didn’t disprove this defense beyond reasonable doubt, but if the jury accepted that, they should understand this means they have to acquit.

    Maybe that’s what they need clarification for, but it seems like a bad sign for George.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  7. Maybe that’s what they need clarification for, but it seems like a bad sign for George.

    Ain’t such a good sign for the so-called justice system either.

    Will Zimmerman even survive in prison until appeal?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  8. In regards to the jury asking for clarification on the charge of manslaughter, this may be a hint at what’s behind that:

    mediaite.com, July 12: On Friday, the prosecution in the case against George Zimmerman for the murder of Trayvon Martin rebutted the defense’s closing argument. The prosecution often appealed to emotion and asked the jurors to listen to their “heart” when deliberating. The prosecution’s tactic may have worked. One Associated Press reporter tweeted that he saw one juror “whipping away a tear” during the prosecution’s argument.

    “Look into your hearts,” said prosecutor John Guy on multiple occasions during the last words in the argument phase of Zimmerman’s trial.

    Associated Press reporter Kyle Hightower was present in the courtroom for the arguments. He observed one juror becoming visibly moved by the prosecution’s argument.

    The phrase “bleeding-heart liberal” defines behavior that is as fatuous and immature, and nonsensical, as “limousine liberal.”

    Compassion for compassion’s sake ironically enough is making this society less compassionate, less decent, less humane, and most definitely less sensible.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  9. Dustin, maybe they didnt get to the reasonable doubt instructions yet; for some reason they are at the end.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  10. Leviticus, profiling isn’t a bad thing. We profile people all the time. If you’re in sales you’ll learn to profile people to determine who is and who isn’t a serious customer.

    Profiling is perfectly OK with people when it’s Jodie Foster who’s the profiler in “Silence of the Lambs” or Morgan Freeman in “Seven.” They’ll pay to watch it.

    Profiling is just a term for what people do on a daily basis when used in a police context. It’s a tool and it’s not going away. It works.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  11. but tea is chock-full of naturally-occurring fluoride

    FWIW, I think you mean flavonoids, since the other substance you’re talking about is not necessarily a good thing.

    Tea, particularly tea drinks made with lower quality older leaves, contain high levels of fluoride. Because of these high levels, research has found that individuals who drink large amounts of tea can develop skeletal fluorosis — a painful bone disease caused by excessive fluoride intake.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  12. “[This trial] is about whether the prosecution can prove to a unanimous jury beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence submitted in court that George Zimmerman did not act in reasonable self defense.”

    This trial has never been about that. From the word “go”, this “trial” (read: kangaroo court, inquisition) has been about nothing more than political and racial pandering.

    Rusty Bill (e3b0ca)

  13. Steve57,

    Comments are now closed on that thread. I was not quick enough on the trigger.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  14. I don’t think it was a giant misunderstanding. TM was loitering, probably trying to hook up with some cough syrup, looking for future if not present targets for burglary.

    He was a bad kid with bad habits, who liked to fight and get high and at minimum included house breakers among his friends, and may well have been caught with items he stole. He gave jewelry to his gal pals and there is no telling where it came from. He had no honest work and the signs are not encouraging that he came by it honestly.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  15. That’s OK. I’m happy being Steve57.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  16. Dustin, maybe they didnt get to the reasonable doubt instructions yet; for some reason they are at the end.

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 7/13/2013 @ 4:37 pm

    I like how you see a lot of these basic things that I miss. I guess it’s totally possible the jury is just walking through their instructions and got confused at this point.

    Kinda sad if this is the case, right? The defense made this self defense aspect crystal clear.

    Maybe most of the jurors get it. Asking for clarification from the judge would be an easy way to show deference and placate a difficult juror who is refusing to accept something. This case was always ripe for someone to enter with an agenda (from both sides), and it’s hard to imagine the person was actually unaware of it (though I envy those folks who are that tuned out these days).

    Dustin (a255d3)

  17. In short, the profile was related to…reality. TM didn’t call police, because he was up to no good.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  18. Mark I’m just trying to make sense of it all

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  19. CNN keeps showing the elements the state must prove for malslaughter as “Trayvon is dead” George intentionally acted in a way that caused the death (paraphrase on my part).

    Shouldn’t the instructions also include that the state must disprove George’s self defense claims?

    The jury has already deliberated for 14 hours. This was not that close of a call. To be a fly on the wall in the jury room…

    Dustin (a255d3)

  20. I don’t think it was a giant misunderstanding. TM was loitering, probably trying to hook up with some cough syrup, looking for future if not present targets for burglary.

    He was a bad kid with bad habits, who liked to fight and get high and at minimum included house breakers among his friends, and may well have been caught with items he stole. He gave jewelry to his gal pals and there is no telling where it came from. He had no honest work and the signs are not encouraging that he came by it honestly.

    Possible, although I wouldn’t bet on him having planned local burglaries.

    I will say that there’s a certain kind of young man that just likes to get others in fight and kick their asses. I’ve come across the type and they’re chilling.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  21. (except that I kinda think that Zimmerman did profile Martin – probably not malignantly or intentionally).

    But perhaps even less so than, for example, Jesse “Rainbow Coalition” Jackson, since Zimmerman, when he first became suspicious of Martin, wasn’t even sure of his race.

    redstate.com, March 2012: Jesse Jackson, as quoted in the NY Times on 12/12/93, by Times columnist Bob Herbert (who is also black):

    “Jesse Jackson is traveling the country with a tough anti-crime message that he is delivering to inner city youngsters. In Chicago, he said:

    ‘There is nothing more painful to me at this stage of my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

    Mark (c7cc04)

  22. *fights

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  23. ==But profiling is just a word for exercising judgment about whether something is suspicious.==

    Dustin, in his book “The Gift of Fear” Gavin de Becker talks about the “elements of intuition and prediction”. These are the same ones our long ago ancestors used all the time to survive; but he thinks are too often ignored today by modern Westerners. The element of intuition is no more than reading the signals we give ourselves. Predicting human behavior is no more than reading the signals others give us. Some might call that “profiling”. de Becker calls it an important and life saving skill.

    elissa (0faa93)

  24. Apparently the jury hasn’t come back with a more specific question r.e. manslaughter.

    It’s entirely possible they came to a quick agreement then decided to go through the evidence last night and today, then the jury instructions one more time, just to make sure they didn’t miss anything.

    It’s pure speculation on my part. But if they haven’t come back with a more specific question by now I don’t see how they could have been dealing with any serious disagreement over the manslaughter charge. It’s been an hour since they got their answer from the court. They’re on their dinner break now.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  25. These are the same ones our long ago ancestors used all the time to survive

    Exactly, Elissa. This is just “thinking”! And it is life saving. Trayvon was a troubled man who liked street fighting and trading in guns (apparently unlawfully). George’s real mistake was his lack of caution, not the other way around. He really would have been better off letting police handle this guy, who I believe sized George up before his attack. Or perhaps George should have forcefully declared “Stay back, I have a gun” if Trayvon did approach George asking if he has a problem.

    Of course, I could quote Orwell’s 1984 explaining how the government would take away the very language to make it difficult to think the thoughts our betters do not want us to think. Perhaps that’s part of the issue with the word ‘profiling’.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  26. If I were on the jury, my first impulse would have been to send a verdict back 30 seconds into deliberations, because the state was so far from proving its case that it is an injustice that George was sent on this ride at all.

    But perhaps it would be wiser if the jury took its time, asked questions, made it clear they gave every argument its hearing. I’m never accused of being too patient, it seems… hopefully the jury is wise enough to do George justice.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  27. Dammit Pat, we were that close to Zager and Evans!

    Gazzer (9a18d1)

  28. Can the jury make a statement of some kind along with its verdict or nay?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  29. “…included house breakers among his friends…”

    Which begs the question:
    Since the shooting of TM by GZ, how many more break-ins have occurred in this community?
    As many as before, less, none?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  30. I still recall the day the OJ verdict was announced back in 1995 and being stunned by the lunacy, but also, and more crucially, by the ruthlessness of it all. But what really shocked me were two people who I had known for years — and who until then I believed had more than a modicum of common sense — who agreed with that verdict. That to me was an epiphany on just how unreliable humans and human nature can be.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  31. But what really shocked me were two people who I had known for years — and who until then I believed had more than a modicum of common sense — who agreed with that verdict.

    I wasn’t stunned. I thought the prosecution had botched their case and created reasonable doubt. Most jurors still thought O.J. was guilty, but ….

    Anyway, if that was anywhere close to reasonable doubt, the Zimmerman case should have been an instant acquittal.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  32. George’s real mistake was his lack of caution, not the other way around.

    He correctly profiled Martin, but not completely. Police officers make this mistake a lot. They correctly identify criminal behavior but underestimate the danger they’re putting themselves in. This was a classic case. It’s not very gruesome but it does show an officer getting shot in the face.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEpUtoUzE4U

    One could argue the officer couldn’t have known that a felon with a long violent record was driving. But even so, other deputies had pulled this guy over before and ran his plate, and warned other deputies about the guy. They had no trouble with him just days before during a traffic stop, but still. And then the guy wouldn’t pull over on the main highway where the deputy first tried to stop him but went quite a distance down a quiet rural side road before stopping.

    None of this is meant as criticism of the Deputy. I know other police officers have discussed the incident so they can learn from it. It’s easy to miss signals that can send up red flags at the time. Like GZ saying that TM followed him to the clubhouse and walked around his truck staring at him during the reenactment. That should have warned him this time might not be like the other times when he called the cops about a suspicious character.

    Which isn’t to say GZ did anything wrong let alone criminal the night he shot TM. No more than that deputy in the video.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  33. Martin didn’t deserve to die and this
    was a giant misunderstanding?
    Wow.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  34. Agreed, Steve. Complacency is the easiest bad habit to fall into.

    When I first heard of this story my take was that George did bring a gun into a situation, so he is ultimately responsible (in a moral sense) for whatever happens, and should do all he can to avoid problems. When I carry a gun, I am the very soul of polite. I do not flash my high beams at the idiot who cut me off. I let it all slide. I do not approach weirdos, and wouldn’t unless there was a true emergency developing.

    George balanced the potentiality of concealed carry against his neighborhood watch duties (I realize he wasn’t explicitly on watch, but he was looking after his neighborhood). He probably carried when he was on watch too, for understandable reasons.

    The risk to my view is that it’s too easy on the actual bad guys (nothing George did justifies Trayvon roughing him up). But I’m not making a legal argument, and I’m sure George will be thinking about this a lot.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  35. Martin didn’t deserve to die and this
    was a giant misunderstanding?
    Wow.

    Comment by tifosa (3c9c21) — 7/13/2013

    If I thought you were making a good faith attempt to understand the post, which is really saying the trial has nothing to do with whether Trayvon deserved to die, then indeed a ‘wow’ would be in order.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  36. George was right to have his firearm on him, period, Dustin — as the unfolded events show.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  37. tifosa, it isn’t complicated.

    If someone beats on you due to a misunderstanding, you can still defend yourself legally.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  38. Something else I’ve been wondering. Did anyone ever get hold of the other guys taped with TM at the 7-11? If not, why not? Since he was new in town, they may well never have met him before, but you’d think they would have recognized him on the news, realized that they were nearly the last people ever to see him alive, and called the police to tell them anything they could. Unless of course they’re local criminals who already have more interactions with the police than they find comfortable and make a point of avoiding them.

    It’s also interesting that the prosecution couldn’t come up with a friend to testify for him other than Rachel Jeantel. Were his other friends even less likely to help their case, or did he not have any?

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  39. that’s their story and they’re sticking to it, Patrick!

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  40. George wasn’t AT ALL a good NW “captain.” The absolute first rule of NW is KNOW YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD.
    He didn’t know the names of the three streets? He had to keep following, er, “going in the same direction” to find the street name, didn’t know any of those residents or addresses….
    Vigilante, wannabecop who had no authority. Zero.

    ps, when did he chamber the shell? As he headed out to Target? 2:42ish on the NEN tape? When he got out to pursue?

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  41. Re: #31 (Mark)

    I simply didn’t have the patience to keep up with the OJ trial. For one thing, trials of celebrities and ‘trial(s) of the century’ are notorious for being crapshoots rather than justice. My impression from the time, reinforced by reading later, is that it was a three ring circle with (to borrow a phrase from the late Robert Parker) psychics and dancing chickens in every corner. And several writers who I admire have since written that there is a strong distinction between saying “OJ was guilty” and saying “The State’s case against OJ was proven beyond reasonable doubt at the trial”.

    Patterico’s point, that the trial (at least in theory, and one hopes in practice) isn’t about “Did Trayvon Martin deserve to die”, is well taken. On the other hand, it might be said to be about “How dumb is it to wander about in a gated neighborhood other than your own, if your public personal is based on a style that imitates self-professed criminals”.

    There is the Law. But there are also The Rules. And one can, without breaking the Law, get killed for violating The Rules. If you run as an Orange candidate in Ireland, you have no right to expect an peaceful life. If you leave a fight at a Biker Bar loudly claiming that you will return once you get your shit, and you reenter with your hand inside your coat, you have effectively committed suicide. Nature abhors no vacuum more than one with ears on either side.

    Trayvon Martin shouldn’t be dead, unless there is an awful lot about him that we haven’t yet heard. But Zimmerman didn’t murder him in the legal definition of murder, unless his story (which seems backed by the evidence) that he was on the ground, getting pounded is false.

    C. S. P. Schofield (adb9dd)

  42. It’s not about justice prevailing, it’s about how best to foment unrest among a certain faction within the Democrat constituency in prep for November 2014, much like was done in the run up to the 2012 election.

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  43. Is it typical for the state to go after several different degrees of a crime and hoping one will stick? If that’s ok, why didn’t they go after 1st degree and include all of the lesser crimes?

    jason (9e6b22)

  44. George was right to have his firearm on him, period, Dustin — as the unfolded events show.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/13/2013

    Sounds like you didn’t understand my comment, Christoph. I believe that morally someone who carries a gun should really walk on eggshells to avoid conflict, because they have increased the stakes. Just my opinion. Of course it is a good thing that George was armed when his head was being smacked into the pavement. Defending yourself from attempted murder is a pretty good idea.

    But avoiding attempted murder is an even better one. George couldn’t figure out how to do that at the time, but I bet he has figured it out now and has relived that night playing out his various options. Different folks might differ on what your moral responsibilities are when you arm yourself, but I believe you should be extremely careful, and I don’t think George was.

    As a legal matter, the state hasn’t proven its case, no brainer, but that’s not the only aspect of this sad story.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  45. The jury has already deliberated for 14 hours. This was not that close of a call. To be a fly on the wall in the jury room…

    Comment by Dustin (a255d3)

    with the prevalence of the CSI crime shows on TV, everyone’s a Sherlock Holmes/Dr. Baden now.

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  46. I don’t know if any of you follow the Talk Left blog. It’s run by a very liberal defense lawyer named Jeralyn that I don’t agree with on politics but she makes a lot of sense when analyzing legal issues. I started following her quite a while ago. Popehat (I believe) recommended her blogging on the Zimmerman case. She has a post up in which she discusses the jury’s question. Essentially she thinks the jury is just following their instructions to the letter.

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/7/13/182758/285/crimenews/Zimmerman-Jury-Has-Question-on-Manslaughter

    If the jury is following the court’s instructions, their consideration of manslaughter means they have rejected Murder 2 but it does not mean they have considered or rejected self-defense. They may or may not have gotten to self-defense yet.

    If the jurors are following instructions, it means they have rejected Murder 2 because the instructions tell them not to consider manslaughter unless they have rejected Murder 2.

    …The talking heads are wrong that the question means they have rejected self-defense. That’s one possibility. But they also may have rejected Murder 2 on the state of mind element alone, without having to reach self-defense. If so, they would move on to a consideration of manslaughter before getting to self-defense.

    Just because O’Mara told them to work on self-defense first, they aren’t bound by what he tells them. The way the instructions are written, the jury may think it first should decide whether the elements of Murder 2 or Manslaughter were met before moving to self-defense.

    It seems like common sense after reading the instructions as a whole that since self-defense prevents a conviction on either charge, they should consider it first. I certainly wish the instructions were written that way. But they are not.

    A literal reading of the instructions says: First first decide if GZ killed TM. If yes, then consider the circumstances and decide if it is Murder 2, Manslaughter or whether the killing was excusable or resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.

    The instructions refer to Justifiable Use of Force early on, but they don’t instruct how to decide the issue of Justifiable Use of Force until page 12, which is after the Murder 2 and Manslaughter instructions.

    I think SarahW is onto something.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  47. I think SarahW is onto something.

    She usually is, in my experience.

    Sarah, how you are doing, health wise?

    Dustin (a255d3)

  48. I think this case brings out how different people feel about the right of self-defense vs relying on the police.

    If you believe in the right of self-defense, you don’t think George Zimmerman should have to take a beating from Trayvon Martin simply because Zimmerman made Martin mad or feel threatened. If you believe the police are experts who we should trust to handle disturbances, you think taking a beating is the penalty Zimmerman should pay for misjudging why Martin was there.

    This case represents a profound cultural divide — individual responsibility vs ‘it takes a village’ — and, in a sense, Florida has been at the forefront of this cultural divide since the 2000 Bush vs Gore election. If so, I don’t think any of us can say what this verdict will be.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  49. trayvon please stop hitting me

    trayvon please stop hitting me trayvon please stop hitting me

    please?

    ok if you don’t stop banging my head against the cement I’m

    ouch

    ok if you don’t stop banging my head against the cement I’m a shoot you with my gun do you understand what I am saying to you

    ouch

    ok see we’re not communicating

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  50. @tifosa

    He didn’t know the names of the three streets?

    The streets change names in that community, he wanted to double check rather than risk giving the police an incorrect location to meet him.

    ps, when did he chamber the shell? As he headed out to Target? 2:42ish on the NEN tape? When he got out to pursue?

    This was covered in trial, but for your information, how it works is this: guns don’t shoot unless there’s a bullet in the chamber. Ergo, you put a bullet in the chamber before you leave home. Furthermore, the Kel-Tec PF-9 is a (mediocre in my opinion, but economical) light weight 9 mm (great calibre choice) sub-compact pistol that holds very few rounds in the magazine: only 6. So you chamber the other round not only to have it handy, but to have it at all.

    Regardless of what happened in this case where Martin’s heart was hit, most handgun wounds of whatever calibre are decidedly not fatal — which is why police and others who are knowledgeable put several rounds into the same target.

    Even that is no guarantee of a rapid fatality nor even disabling of your attacker.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  51. High black unemployment and teh Lightworker’s indifference to the plight of the black community are probably more factors toward increasing tensions around the case than all the race-baiting gyrations by the Sharptons, the Jacksons, the NBPP, and other malevolent forces.

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  52. Christoph is Former Conservative?

    It doesn’t surprise me that he’s back because this blog is addictive, but it would surprise me to hear Christoph claim to have been a conservative.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  53. when you spend generations teaching a people to believe they are powerless victims of Teh Man, the Democrats will reap what they sow.

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  54. I thought the prosecution had botched their case and created reasonable doubt.

    That is one argument that has long struck me as bending over backwards to give Simpson the benefit of the doubt while doing the opposite to the prosecution. That might have made a bit of sense long before the age of DNA and DNA testing, but not in today’s era.

    Things have been turned on their head with the current trial, with the politics switched around accordingly. That’s because Zimmerman, although he survived a violent confrontation (unlike what happened to OJ’s ex-wife and her friend) is more analogous to the two dead victims in 1995 — and similarly isn’t getting much or any sympathy from various liberals — while Martin (although he’s dead) has clearly disreputable qualities about his background and undoubtedly forced Zimmerman into a life-or-death struggle, and is receiving sympathy from various liberals.

    The left has a knack for misconstruing or misjudging various people and situations, all in the name of the left’s supposed do-gooderness and (hollow) compassion.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  55. I think what we have here is aspirational news reporting; they aspire to have a riot to cover and so they print whatever is needed to accomplish that goal.

    Shame!

    Patricia (be0117)

  56. I believe that morally someone who carries a gun should really walk on eggshells to avoid conflict, because they have increased the stakes.

    I get it. I just don’t agree. I think they should act in accordance with the law, which Zimmerman did. Having the entire society of decent people turn into a bunch of risk-averse puddycats because they’re lawfully armed, only standing up for what is right when they’re unarmed and vulnerable, doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

    Of course, I agree they shouldn’t intentionally provoke fights in order to kill people, which would be murder.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  57. Who testified that he chambered the shell at home? (I did miss that)

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  58. ==I don’t know if any of you follow the Talk Left blog.==

    Steve57, sometimes I wonder how closely you follow along these threads. Jeralyn’s excellent posts have been linked, quoted, excerpted and commented on here probably a dozen times over the period of the trial. Some commenters know her personally. But you’re right. She’s made an invaluable contribution to the understanding and legacy of this trial, and today’s post from her is no exception. I’m glad you linked it.

    elissa (0faa93)

  59. look around you… how the lowest common denominator prevails in our culture. There’s little argument against the fact that we as a people are sinking into a dumbed-down mire.

    De-evolution is the Dismal Tide… get your affairs in order, we’re in for a terrible ride before things get better.

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  60. I believe that morally someone who carries a gun should really walk on eggshells to avoid conflict, because they have increased the stakes.

    The defense’s use of force expert talked about that, as did a few of the police officers on cross, of I remember right.

    In any case, everyone carries a DAO pistol with a round chambered if they have any sense. The police do too.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  61. Christoph is Former Conservative?

    All the tells are there, DRJ.

    nk (875f57)

  62. That blockquote made no sense because I had the wrong thing in the clibboard. Should have been in reply to:

    “Who testified that he chambered the shell at home? (I did miss that)”

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  63. The street names changed? Ever?

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  64. everyone who carries a pistol for CCW has a round in the chamber, unless they’re stupid or poorly trained.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  65. GZ chambered the shell at home? Link to a transcript?

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  66. Re chambering a round:

    You can’t operate a gun with one hand unless a round is chambered. It is smart to be able to do so because one of your hands might be holding a flashlight or phone, wounded, or fighting off a weirdo. Tiny guns like the kel-tec are good because they are so easy to bring with you all the time. Because of the long trigger and double action, it should be pretty hard to accidentally fire that kind of gun, but any sane person will holster the gun in a way that isolates the trigger, so it’s safe to carry loaded.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  67. If you believe the police are experts who we should trust to handle disturbances

    But it’s galling that various people who are sympathizing with Martin instead of Zimmerman also are the types who in general will sympathize with or make excuses for felons instead of law enforcement. People such as, for example, America’s current Attorney General, Eric Holder. Or Trayvon’s symbolic father, the guy in the White House. Or Nidal Hasan’s symbolic beer buddies sprinkled throughout the US military.

    This trial and similar messes conjure up the phrase that the inmates are running the asylum.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  68. The street names changed? Ever?

    Yes. That was testified to at the trial. As in it is called one thing one place, and the next block called something else.

    tifosa, your arguments, such as they are, might have more resonance if you didn’t get most of the underlying facts wrong.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  69. GZ chambered the shell at home? Link to a transcript?

    Comment by tifosa (3c9c21) — 7/13/2013

    It’s just the correct way to do it, and it would be really weird if he hadn’t. It’s like asking if he put the gas in his car at the gas station, or if he wore his left shoe on his left foot that night.

    This may not make sense to people who don’t conceal carry. I know practically every cop drama on TV shows the cops racking the slide over and over again, so you assume that’s how they ready the weapon.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  70. OJ? Again? I watched most of the prosecution’s case on TV (trapped in LA with little else to do, I had to stay attached to the telephone and computer) and I didn’t think they really presented proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I saw bits of the defense, which mostly confirmed my questions of some of the prosecution’s presentation. I was not surprised at the verdict. I think it’s possible, even probable, that OJ did the murders; that’s different than beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I think they’re just going down the form, following it like they’d follow a recipe. Being creative in following the steps of a recipe can get you bad results.

    htom (412a17)

  71. GZ chambered the shell at home? Link to a transcript?

    Dude, you can try to find it if you like. Undoubtedly this will have been one of the questions the police asked him during questioning, which recordings and transcripts were entered into trial.

    No, I’m not going to waste time finding a transcript that shows George Zimmerman did what everyone else does who carries a pistol for self defense, which is chamber a round so you can shoot the damn gun.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  72. *entered into evidence at trial

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  73. 59. Steve57, sometimes I wonder how closely you follow along these threads. Jeralyn’s excellent posts have been linked, quoted, excerpted and commented on here probably a dozen times over the period of the trial. Some commenters know her personally.

    Comment by elissa (0faa93) — 7/13/2013 @ 5:53 pm

    There have been many threads on the GZ saga, and a lot of comments. It’s possible I’ve missed a few. Perhaps dozens.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  74. Gun expert, tifosa is not.

    nk (875f57)

  75. tifosa are you at all familiar with the concept of whipping a dead horse? The subject of the illegible street names within the development at night in the rain was covered here, debated, argued and, if I recall correctly, one commenter even called up google earth. The subject came up at trial did it not? What is the value to you of raising it anew again even after the prosecution rested and the case has gone to the jury? Do you think the state screwed something up that you are hoping to correct?

    elissa (0faa93)

  76. My prediction… hung jury on Monday. Judge will send them back.

    Colonel Haiku (829ca4)

  77. Well, it’s not in the Serino testimony, not in Osterman. Just fyi.
    My prediction hasn’t changed: GZ’s acquitted and he gains 33lbs more to take him to a 158lb weight-gain and carries it with him for-e-ver.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  78. Also, don’t you think the state counted the number of rounds in the magazine after he shot the gun, tifosa? And checked them for powder residue?

    If Zimmerman had only 5 rounds left after shooting one, the state would noticed that. Do you think Zimmerman carried a loaded gun with no round in the chamber because he was murderous? And he just happened to be carrying a loose bullet around his pocket somewhere because he felt like giving all the black kids he planned on murdering that day after goading them into a fight a fair chance, stopping first to remove his magazine, chamber that loose round, and re-insert the magazine in public in the dark while trailing somebody?

    Or do you think maybe he chambered the round at home?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  79. Do you think the state screwed something up that you are hoping to correct? point taken

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  80. Wolfinger decided there was nothing to the case, that’s why Crump inpugned him, early on, Scott then washed his hands of the matter,

    narciso (3fec35)

  81. the way to top off is to chamber a round, drop the magazine out, and add another round to the magazine, then re-insert it into the weapon.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  82. Dustin,

    The Hollywood trope of racking slides and cocking hammers is a running jokes on gun sites. Go ahead, make my day. Snicker.

    nk (875f57)

  83. “This trial is not about whether Trayvon Martin “deserved” to die.”

    The heck it ain’t. The defense is arguing that Martin’s actions merited Zimmerman killing him. There’s no question that Zimmerman killed Martin. The (main) question is whether Martin had it coming or not.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  84. 82.the way to top off is to chamber a round, drop the magazine out, and add another round to the magazine, then re-insert it into the weapon.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/13/2013 @ 6:17 pm

    I’m one of the mazazine-spring-loss-of-tension-phobes. (I know, don’t tell me.) I don’t top off.

    nk (875f57)

  85. I think the state screwed up more than one thing in this prosecution. As far as I can tell, the prosecution didn’t really present a case at all. From beginning to end, it was all about “Justice for Trayvon”, when they meant to say “Vengeance for Travon”. That’s what the case they presented was, and it might win in the civil case.

    htom (412a17)

  86. “deserved to die”

    I would think that Charles Manson deserved to die. Certainly Osama bin Ladin deserved to die. But some punk-ass kid who thought he’d beat someone up who dissed him? No, not so. Killing in self-defense is certainly justified, but it’s not like you’d kill him later if you only wounded him then.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  87. Dave Surls,

    I think there’s a difference between “deserving” to die and self-defense. The former is the Old West notion that someone needs to be killed. The latter is a recognition that a person can kill another to protect himself. The defense argued the latter.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  88. “This trial is not about whether Trayvon Martin “deserved” to die.”

    The heck it ain’t. The defense is arguing that Martin’s actions merited Zimmerman killing him.

    Because of the imminent danger he posed to Zimmerman, not because of a moral assessment of Martin. There’s a distinction there. Do you get it?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  89. It is very unfortunate that Trayvon got shot, however self defense is self defense. Once you make a decision to try to hurt someone Trayvon, you must then accept whatever retribution comes back at you. If more people carried guns, maybe street thugs would mind their own business and not risk this happening to them by committing crimes against others. If he would have just gone home intead of confronting Zimmerman there would have been not problem. Zimmerman did not confront Trayvon, he would have been happy to see him go home since he had not witnessed him commit a crime.

    Mike (96dc4f)

  90. 6. As Geraldo Rivera pointed out in last night’s O’Reilly show hosted by Laura, they both profiled each other.

    And as nk pointed out in last thread, we all profile. It isn’t laziness, but rather ‘pattern recognition’. Its what separates us from pond scum, well many of us.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  91. ==The defense is arguing that Martin’s actions merited Zimmerman killing him==

    No I disagree, I think the defense argued (successfully) that Martin’s actions merited Zimmerman acting in self defense.

    If you were being pummeled mma style and being straddled and crushed under Trayvon would your aim in self defense have been better, Dave? Yes, it would have been wonderful if the shot Zimmerman got off during the struggle had hit an arm or shoulder and disabled Trayvon instead of hitting his heart to kill him. I will never believe that Z was aiming for his heart. I will never believe Z intended to kill Trayvon.

    elissa (0faa93)

  92. htom,

    I’m sorry about your mom. (Missed it on the other thread.) All my best wishes for her recovery and for you and your family in this time.

    nk (875f57)

  93. Yes, it would have been wonderful if the shot Zimmerman got off during the struggle had hit an arm or shoulder and disabled Trayvon instead of hitting his heart to kill him. I will never believe that Z was aiming for his heart. I will never believe Z intended to kill Trayvon.

    No, I don’t buy this. When you shoot someone, you’re trained to hit center of mass. Well, that’s near the heart and spinal column. The odds of hitting them aren’t high, but you are aiming for the vital regions.

    True, most of the time they are missed, at least with handguns, which transfer much less energy to the body and destroy a much smaller region of tissue — basically the part that the bullet hits.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  94. “GZ chambered the shell at home?”

    shorter tifosa – Look, I have a new squirrel!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  95. One of the books I’m reading is The Vigilantes of Montana, Prof. Thos J. Dimsdale (University of Oklahoma Press, 1953, from his collected newspaper articles of 1865.) From his description of some of the “victims” of the Vigilantes, I can see where “some people jist needs kill’n” comes from. “Lawless” had a different meaning then and there.

    htom (412a17)

  96. 87. Not to belabor the point sanctimoniously, but we all deserve to die.

    Your pooch doesn’t deserve to die as roadkill. You are a lousy owner when it happens.

    Trayvon’s parents are guilty, Z merely provided the means. But the kid was going to get it done sooner or later.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  97. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/13/2013 @ 5:48 pm

    He probably voted the Conservative line in a by-election once because he was pissed at Trudeau.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  98. For GZ’s story to be true, TM would have had blood on his hands. Imagine a hand over a “broken” nose and bloody mouth.
    None. Not a speck. StateExhibit23 and StateExhibit24 were pics of each of his hands at the scene.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  99. My take;

    #1, my guess is that Zimmerman probably did profile Martin. If so, that’s not illegal for Zimmerman to do, so it’s irrelevant.

    Did Zimmerman follow Martin? My opinion is yes. Thus, Zimmerman walked through his own neighborhood. This is not illegal.

    Do I find it suspicious that Zimmerman didn’t know the street name in his small neighborhood? Yes.

    Who started the fight? I have no idea. I do find the claim that Martin should have run home to be troubling; why should he? He has as much right to be walking as Zimmerman. What he does NOT have the right to do is confront Zimmerman in any way that goes beyond verbal.

    I do see a scenario where Zimmerman is guilty; what if he flashed, or began to draw, his gun during a verbal exchange? Martin might have felt in danger, and thought attacking was a better chance than running. I see this scenario as possible but unlikely. However, for the sake of argument, let’s assume I think that’s what happened. Let’s also say for the sake of argument that I don’t believe any of the witnesses who identified Zimmerman as being on the bottom and screaming.

    If we take all those assumptions, then I’d think Zimmerman is probably guilty.

    Probably.

    And there’s a word for that: Not guilty.

    I really can’t see any way past reasonable doubt in this case, none at all.

    My actual opinion is that Zimmerman is probably innocent. (I was undecided at the start of the trial). I’m not quite sure I’m certain enough to “convict beyond reasonable doubt of being innocent” but darn close. But it doesn’t matter, because it has to be the other way; guilty beyond reasonable doubt. And it clearly isn’t. If the jury even pays the slightest attention to the law, there is no way, given what they have, that they can convict on either charge.

    And In the above, I’m not even taking into consideration the fact that the prosecution never presented a theory of the crime (I’d have thought that a prerequisite) and the manifest misconduct. (The jury is surely unwares)

    What I do worry about here is jury tampering. What if, in an oh so “helpful” way, someone told the jury “In the event of an acquittal, we’ll do all we can to keep your identities secret and shield you and your families.” That would put the jury under enormous pressure, especially towards the “compromise” manslaughter charge (And they don’t know the penalties, either).

    Arizona CJ (2b41c6)

  100. Zimmerman did not aim the gun, he pulled and fired to get Trayvon off of him. However you look at it, it is self defense. Unfortunate someone died, but it was self defense.

    Mike (96dc4f)

  101. Expert, tifosa is not.

    FTFY, nk.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  102. “The (main) question is whether Martin had it coming or not.”

    Dave Surls – Don’t ever change. If Zimmerman had been unarmed it would be Martin on trial for 2nd degree murder.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  103. 92. In his interview with Hannity Z indicated the gun was revealed by his inching his head off the pavement.

    At that point ‘it was no longer his gun, but the gun.

    There is no evidence Z is not telling the truth, or that he has lied in any particular. “Trained to shoot” has no relevance under the circumstances. Until Trayvon said ‘you got me’ he did not believe he hit him.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  104. Zimmerman did not aim the gun

    Well, he didn’t line up the sights, but he fired upwards toward Martin on purpose, not off to either side or what have you. It’s silly to argue he was aiming for the heart specifically, but it’s equally silly to say he wasn’t aiming (or pointing) the gun at Martin when he shot.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  105. Agreed nk. You are?

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  106. “Because of the imminent danger he posed to Zimmerman…”

    Yup.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  107. Comment by elissa (0faa93) — 7/13/2013 @ 6:31 pm
    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/13/2013 @ 6:34 pm

    At the range that GZ pulled the trigger – 2-4 inches – you’re not aiming at all.
    It’s called “point shooting”:
    You point, pull the trigger, and hope to hell you hit the target – and at four-inches max, there’s almost no way to miss.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  108. The defense is arguing that Martin’s actions merited Zimmerman killing him.

    Did the state prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that George was not acting in self defense.

    That’s the question. It is not about whether Martin deserved the death penalty. It isn’t even whether George did anything that justified Trayvon attacking him so viciously.

    Florida law makes this case very hard (perhaps even impossible) for the state to win. I think it ought to be on the person making the self defense claim to back that up with evidence, because otherwise you can just say ‘he said I’m going to die tonight’ and the state has to disprove it. How do they do that? It’s not really possible.

    Fortunately in this case George has considerable evidence he defended himself. A witness saw Trayvon pummeling George, with George trapped beneath his attacker. The injuries he sustained back up his story. The gunshot matches with an attacker hanging over George, too. That’s enough to satisfy the kind of burden I would like to see, but in this case, that burden doesn’t actually fall on the defense anyway.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  109. You know that story about Jessie Jackson’s epiphany.
    Are white robbers against stealing from black people? Does that make them racist?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  110. Verdict’s in.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  111. OK, askeptic, I see your point, but it’s kind of down to semantics.

    It’s so close you don’t have to “aim” in at least one sense of the word. But you’re still intentionally putting a bullet into the other person’s body: that’s the intention by all reasonable inference.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  112. 105. “he fired upwards toward Martin on purpose”

    Speculation. In the struggle for the gun aiming, even pulling the trigger is not a given.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  113. former conservative…..You don’t carry a gun to fire warning shots. If your going to pull it out it is to fire and hit your target.

    Mike (96dc4f)

  114. ==Zimmerman did not aim the gun, he pulled and fired to get Trayvon off of him.==

    Yes. This is the way I think it happened, too. Z was pinned down. Z’s gun was in his waistband/belt. He had very limited motion in his arms or hand. So when he pulled the trigger the shot came from the area of Z’s midsection. It therefore hit Trayvon’s chest/midsection. There was no time or opportunity for “aiming”.

    elissa (0faa93)

  115. The verdict has been reached. Not released yet.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  116. former conservative…..You don’t carry a gun to fire warning shots. If your going to pull it out it is to fire and hit your target.

    Yes, I know this. That’s my point.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  117. htom,

    I’m praying for you, your mother, and your family. I hope she makes a quick recovery.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  118. Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/13/2013 @ 6:49 pm

    No one deliberately fires to miss, unless you’re at some ways away and using a rifle that you’re very accurate with, and you want to make a point.

    Use of force training is you don’t pull the trigger unless you’re willing to kill the target.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  119. Jeralyn Merritt thinks there may be a verdict.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  120. “If Zimmerman had been unarmed it would be Martin on trial for 2nd degree murder.”

    Off topic, but nice employment of the crystal ball there.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  121. tifosa either hasn’t been paying attention or thinks we haven’t. We all know that the incompetent medical examiner failed to have TM’s hands bagged at the scene and it was raining. Any blood on his hands would have been washed off. Also, I’m not going to do his homework for him, but didn’t the earlier of the two pictures appear to show blood on his hands, while the later one, taken after more rain had washed over him, did not?

    tifosa needs to stop wasting our time repeating points that have already been refuted.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  122. UPDATE: Reports say the jury has reached a verdict. Stand by.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  123. Apparently the jury is still working at 10 PM EST, the media has been assembled, and the attorneys are in the courtroom.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  124. Supposedly it will be announced in the next 15-20 minutes.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  125. 112. That’s what CNN is reporting, but Fox says only that the jury asked for clarification on Manslaughter charge which the former mentions also.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  126. there is a verdict in the trial…

    https://twitter.com/LegInsurrection/zimmerman-trial#

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  127. but didn’t the earlier of the two pictures appear to show blood on his hands, while the later one, taken after more rain had washed over him, did not?

    No, that was his chest — but you are right about Martin’s hands not being bagged.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  128. Jeralyn Merritt asks: Can the jury hear the protesters?”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  129. Verdict.

    JD (b63a52)

  130. It doesn’t take a crystal ball to see that a man who refuses to stop beating another man who is entirely at his mercy, even when several witnesses tell him they’re calling the police and beg him to stop, is probably going to keep beating him until the police arrive or the man he’s beating is visibly dead, whichever comes first. Since the police didn’t arrive for several minutes, ‘visibly dead’ was always the most likely result if GZ had not had a gun or had not managed to use it.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  131. 45. Sounds like you didn’t understand my comment, Christoph. I believe that morally someone who carries a gun should really walk on eggshells to avoid conflict, because they have increased the stakes.

    Comment by Dustin (a255d3) — 7/13/2013 @ 5:36 pm

    I agree for the most part. I wouldn’t describe it as walking on eggshells, though.

    I’d use Col. Cooper’s readiness conditions; White, Yellow, Orange, and Red. Which as he stressed time and again, didn’t represent the level of threat around you but rather to your mental readiness to use deadly force.

    Condition red is simple so we’ll get that out of the way first. There’s nothing left to decide. You’re in a life and death situation and you have to use deadly force to preserve your life.

    If you’re in condition white then you are totally unprepared to take lethal action. No one can really afford to walk around in condition white because then you’re oblivious to your surroundings and you’re just a target. But a CCW holder can especially not afford to be in condition white because you’ve always got to be aware that today is the day you may have to use your gun. Every time you wear your gun you have to be seriously aware of that fact and the consequences.

    So you have to be in condition Yellow at all times. That means being alert, aware of your surroundings, watching for a threat to develop and having a plan to avoid and/or deal with a threat if it does develop.

    If a potential threat develops you go to Orange. You’re mindset changes from “I may have to use my gun today” to “I may have to shoot that guy.” Now your plan becomes more specific. How to avoid and/or deal with that guy.

    I totally agree that a CCW carrier has to do everything in their power to avoid conflict. That means being polite to people who don’t deserve it, not saying what you might have said if you didn’t have the gun on you, avoiding uncomfortable situations, etc.

    I don’t think GZ did that. He seems like most people to have been going through his day in condition white. He didn’t seem to even go to yellow when he called the police about TM. He identified him as suspicious but not as a threat. He certainly didn’t go to orange and identify TM as a specific threat. He seemed to go from white to red within seconds when TM confronted him.

    That wasn’t extremely smart, but then it isn’t the stupidest thing anyone has ever done. Certainly it’s not a crime.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  132. Does anyone know if the jury got an answer to its manslaughter question?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  133. Not guilty

    JD (b63a52)

  134. Not guilty!

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  135. Not Guilty +33lbs

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  136. Not guilty.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  137. No answer

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  138. UPDATE x2: The jury found Zimmerman not guilty.

    That was the right verdict.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  139. 134.Does anyone know if the jury got an answer to its manslaughter question?

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 7/13/2013 @ 6:58 pm

    They never sent back a specific question. Of course that’s water under the bridge now.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  140. 6 brilliant, beautiful-minded women. :)

    Hey, when I realize I was wrong, I’ll admit it.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  141. I wouldn’t describe it as walking on eggshells, though.

    Yeah, that was overkill. You should still walk free and live your life. But like you say, be aware of your surroundings and the potential for a severe thing happening. Don’t just let something happen because you have a talisman of protection.

    But that is a moral thing. Legally, this case was a no brainer.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  142. The nonsense from Surls, tifosa, Tye, and Perry should be priceless.

    JD (b63a52)

  143. Dave Surls – You have no monopoly on Ouija Boards or Crystal Balls on which I am infringing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  144. What is with tiffy’s obsession with weight?
    Just another problem for her analyst to deal with.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  145. NOT GUILTY!

    Thank goodness, our long national nightmare is over….
    until the media gins up something else.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  146. I actually think tifosa will accept it because she knows the trial was a fair one and that the defense case was stronger and better presented. The other three, not so much.

    Am I right about that tifosa?

    elissa (0faa93)

  147. Priceless? I predicted it.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  148. NOT GUILTY!

    Thank goodness, our long national nightmare is over….
    until the media gins up something else.

    Sadly, no. Now the feds under Holder can take their kick at the can.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  149. I guess West knew what he was doing, looking liked a tongue-tied adolescent asking a girl to the junior prom for the first time. 😉

    nk (875f57)

  150. What is the location of the nearest Federal District Court to Sanford?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  151. not guilty is not the same as innocent

    not in Pam Biondi’s America it sure as hell ain’t

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  152. So, what will the next phase of the GZ/TM saga include?

    Angela Corey/BDLR/et al getting indicted or disbarred for prosecutorial misconduct? Don’t forget Judge Nelson has yet to rule on the defense motion to sanction the prosecutors for concealing evidence. She delayed that ruling until after the trial.

    Or GZ getting arrested by the feds for violating the civil rights of somebody who looked like BHO’s son?

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  153. Not to mention a civil case, Steve57.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  154. what is the over/under on where rioting will begin?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  155. Will the NY Times publish their names and addresses?

    Gerald A (130406)

  156. Are the two incompetent medical examiners now free to wed or will the union sound to much like a barking dog, Bao-Rao.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  157. Best of the early press reports I’ve seen so far.

    Beldar (5f7e8d)

  158. (Still very, very short of details.)

    Beldar (5f7e8d)

  159. what is the over/under on where rioting will begin?

    I’m optimistic that enough preparation has been done and it won’t. If it does, well, the rioters aren’t exactly making the case against racially profiling young black males for violent criminal activity, right?

    I hope they get that, and think they probably do.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  160. I felt so much better about it all after I saw the jury members’ profiles and heard them actually speak in voir dire. (link here last night). They listened, took notes, and then did what the evidence led them to do. That’s what is supposed to happen in a trial by jury.

    elissa (0faa93)

  161. Watching, and listening, to Angela Corey hold her after-verdict presser:
    She strikes me as a female Bill Clinton –
    smarmy, not-to-be-believed, I’m smarter than everyone else here.
    Gov. Scott, if he does nothing else in his time in office, should fire her.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  162. Contrast the reaction of the liberal media and the black community to this Not Guilty verdict with the Not Guilty verdict in the OJ case. The prosecution struggled in both cases but many of those who celebrated when reasonable doubt prevailed in the OJ case are unhappy that the same thing happened today.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  163. rioting takes a LOT of energy

    energy what is supplied by bartering food stamps for comestibles and then consuming them

    ergo we have to solve for F, where F equals the amount of energy one needs to riot minus the amount of energy one needs to merely subsist on food stamps

    then we need to cut food stamps by F amount to where even if people want to they can’t do riotings without risking precipitous weight loss

    of course those of you who subscribe to my newsletter are already abreast of these thinkings

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  164. This press conference is sickening.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  165. She actually had the gall to say that the reason they brought this case was to present all the evidence to the public, to ensure that justice was done to Trayvon, and the living.

    GMAFB!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  166. Thank God (or Allah).

    I now have so little faith in the human species, that I don’t assume anything good (or, in a way, also bad) about them. Sort of like looking at the world as being in a form of purgatory.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  167. Angela Corey is not a good person.

    JD (b63a52)

  168. I’m watching Angela Corey’s 15 minutes of fame on TV.

    ropelight (ab7f6c)

  169. This press conference is sickening.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:20 pm

    This

    JD (b63a52)

  170. Someone should ask her a tough question.

    It’s not like there aren’t plenty of tough questions to ask.

    Patterico (fffde6)

  171. Literally everything about her turns my stomach: her makeup, her attitude, her words, everything.

    Patterico (fffde6)

  172. Angela needs to STFU.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  173. Angela Corey looks like Donna Pescow

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  174. just way way fatter

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  175. Why do some people, Angela Corey is one, Christina Romer is another, smile their way through serious subjects?
    Is it to distract from the seriousness of the subject that may be distasteful.
    To me, it is very off-putting, and diminishes the credibility of the speaker.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  176. I’m not trying to minimalize this, but George Zimmerman had a widdle boo boo. — Paraphrase of Angela Corey

    Patterico (fffde6)

  177. Someone should ask her a tough question.

    One reporter at least asked her if she’d bothered to talk to the Martin parents before rushing to the press conference.

    She hadn’t.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  178. Pat, you mean like, if it was Angela Corey’s intent for all the facts to get out then why did they fire the IT guy for expressing his concern that they were concealing facts from the defense?

    Questions like that?

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  179. Literally everything about her turns my stomach: her makeup, her attitude, her words, everything.

    I’ve yet to discover what her actual, true political orientation is, but I’d be surprised if she isn’t a weird variation of a — or isn’t a flat-out — stereotypical liberal. At the very least, the woman has limited common sense, and such people, more times than not, are of the left instead of the right.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  180. if you swung a half-frozened polish sausage at Angela’s head you should probably have some mustard handy just to be a good host

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  181. Yes, the smiling is creepy.

    She’s a creepy ass person.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  182. I know Angela Corey doesn’t agree with the jury’s verdict but she’s close to sounding like she doesn’t respect it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  183. Ha! Tough question: “I’ll let Bernie answer that.”

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  184. BDLR still believes that GZ was the aggressor.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  185. BDLR should not step in front of any more microphones. He is angling for a DOJ job.

    JD (b63a52)

  186. 174.Angela needs to STFU.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:26 pm

    Uh-uh. The opera is not over until the fat lady sings, remember?

    nk (875f57)

  187. BDLR knows the jury was wrong….otherwise, he would have to admit that he really f…ed up.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  188. BDLR appeals to authority….
    I’ve tried 80 murder cases, and the jury got it wrong.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  189. I think she would look better with less makeup, but that may be a Southern thing — like big hair.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  190. I’ve got to turn this crap off before I lose too many points.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  191. The press finally got in a question on the IT guy….last question of the presser.
    She deflected to The Letter.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  192. He didn’t say the jury got it wrong! Sheesh!

    nk (875f57)

  193. 2451. Comment by tifosa (3c9c21) — 7/13/2013 @ 2:28 pm

    GZ told the jury what he thought of “these a–holes” remember, “they always get away.”

    Comment by Stashiu3 (e7ebd8) — 7/13/2013 @ 2:37 pm

    when did GZ talk to the jury exactly?

    This comes from the recording of the non-emergency call (not 911) call GZ made to the police.

    His statements to the police, including even a videotaped walkthrough, were introduced into evidence, but I am sure there are some small things he didn’t get a chance to clarify because he didn’t testify.

    But the jury saw quite a lot of his version of events, and those statements were contemporary.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  194. Some reporter is asking if this means that people can now follow “young children” and shoot them.

    Never mind the obvious BS, but Treyvon was 17, which is about as unyoung as one can get and still be a child.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  195. Will Angela be the DoJ’s star civil-rights witness?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  196. I may have only tried 25 murder cases (ballpark) but I would never have tried this case.

    Patterico (e66565)

  197. Angela Corey sucks out loud on ice. A truly despicable person. Somewhere Reggie Love is cradling a sobbing Jeff in his arms.

    Gazzer (9a18d1)

  198. So not only did the investigator believe George, and not only did the Chief of police not want to arrest, but a unanimous jury has ruled that George was not guilty.

    Does Corley show any hint of recognizing that point of view? Not really.

    Their zeal on display here, after the law has spoken on this matter, is alarming, and makes me much more curious about the allegations of misconduct by the prosecution. George got his day in court, and Corey should have hers as well.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  199. I agree 100% with Patterico. Instead of slinking away with their tails between their legs, the prosecution team has a ridiculous press conference.

    DN (09d6b1)

  200. Nancy Grace and the Reverends were heard to be upset and will appeal.

    Yah sure.

    Andy (a35672)

  201. Opps I meant JEF.

    Gazzer (9a18d1)

  202. I hate being “that guy” in the room, but why exactly was the burden of the proof on the prosecution to prove that Zimmerman acted maliciously?

    CK (ae4bf1)

  203. *Corley

    Dustin (a255d3)

  204. One reason why I assumed Corey wasn’t a stooge of the left was not so much her being appointed by a Republican governor, but her also being apparently quite hard-nosed about, for example, crimes involving young people—quite ironic given her mentality about Trayvon Martin. But it suddenly occurs to me that some of the most ruthless, anti-crime attitudes (where the death penalty would be handed down for non-lethal crimes) have been evident in diabolical, totalitarian, ultra-liberal regimes, such as PRC China a few decades ago, if not today.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  205. this case was an important milestone along the road towards a perverted, fascism-friendly conceptualization of justice in america

    we should probably have a toast

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  206. Bernie de la Rionda is sill pushing the losing meme that TraMar is dead because GZ followed him.

    Bernie says he believes in the right of self-defense and in the right to keep and bear arms, just not in this case.

    Angela Corey doesn’t want to talk about the whistleblower in her office she fired for revealing the prosecutors withheld evidence from the defense.

    ropelight (ab7f6c)

  207. For crying out loud. What kind of s**t State Attorney office is that? The jury got it wrong? No! “We had faith in our case — the jury saw it differently”. The clown is trying to incite a riot?

    nk (875f57)

  208. I’m going to the park with my kids. Someone tell me if any jurors speak. I can’t take these prosecutors.

    Patterico (e66565)

  209. Well when the President of the United States feels comfortable disrespecting the Supreme Court Justices, why shouldn’t Angela feel comfortable dissing these jury members?

    Yes, this is an ugly press conference. “We tried hard, we did our best, we are disappointed for the Martin family, but we respect the Florida court system and the finding of this jury. Thank you all very much. Good night” would have been much better and classier I think, Angela.

    elissa (0faa93)

  210. Holy cats. Thought I was down for the night, glad I woke up again. It feels like,America isn’t all the way quite over yet. What a relief.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  211. Zimmerman should study to be a legal assistant in a defense firm. He could really help attorneys and defendants with his experience.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  212. 190.BDLR appeals to authority….
    I’ve tried 80 murder cases, and the jury got it wrong.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:34 pm

    If I were a reporter I wouldn’t have been able to hold the question back:

    “So you’re telling us that there a lot of wrongful convictions in Florida?”

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  213. One reason why I assumed Corey wasn’t a stooge of the left was not so much her being appointed by a Republican governor, but her also being apparently quite hard-nosed about, for example, crimes involving young people—quite ironic given her mentality about Trayvon Martin. But it suddenly occurs to me that some of the most ruthless, anti-crime attitudes (where the death penalty would be handed down for non-lethal crimes) have been evident in diabolical, totalitarian, ultra-liberal regimes, such as PRC China a few decades ago, if not today.

    Comment by Mark

    Welcome to the party.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  214. I hate being “that guy” in the room, but why exactly was the burden of the proof on the prosecution to prove that Zimmerman acted maliciously?

    Comment by CK (ae4bf1) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:37 pm

    It was extremely high, in my opinion. Florida’s fourth circuit court of appeals ruled that for self defense, the defendant needs only the slightest evidence, and the state needs to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt. All of the burden is on the state.

    In this case, George had physical evidence, and one of the state’s witnesses actually saw George being pummelled. The state wasn’t even in the same galaxy as proving its case.

    The disturbing thing is that these days, even with such a clear case for a not guilty verdict, many have little confidence that’s the result our system will reach. We live in interesting times.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  215. you don’t

    have

    to live like a refugee

    unless you’re George Zimmerman

    or Edward Snowden

    it’s a life-under-fascism thing if you don’t get it then you don’t get it I can’t help you

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  216. Zimmerman should study to be a legal assistant in a defense firm. He could really help attorneys and defendants with his experience.

    That’s a great suggestion. Hopefully someone who knows him brings it up to him.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  217. I saw a lot of reversals in the Fourth Judicial (Coreys’) Circuit in my perusal of Florida case law.

    nk (875f57)

  218. Patterico, I understand (as always) if this question’s answer would take you farther than you care to go in public comment, and of course I also understand that (as always here) any answer you might give is in your personal and private capacity, not on behalf of your employer or colleagues. That said:

    Would you have taken this to a grand jury, but done your best to present to the grand jury both the most powerful inculpatory evidence available to you (whatever you determined that to be; not sure what it might be here) plus the most powerful version available to you of any justification evidence (including evidence of self-defense)?

    I think that’s what ought to have been done, in part because I think justification defenses are the sort of thing that grand juries are uniquely well situated to preview meaningfully and pass upon on behalf of their communities.

    But I can also see strong arguments that the evidence was so lop-sided that a prosecutor could well have decided not to even take it to a grand jury.

    Beldar (5f7e8d)

  219. 2214. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/12/2013 @ 1:47 pm

    If it is a not guilty verdict I suspect Obama may go even further and say while he is not happy with the outcome of the trial, people must respect the American justice system and it has run its course in this matter and should not be a cause for violence and ask people to respect the verdict and appeal for calm, while erecting and setting ablaze a few extraneous strawmen.

    I think this hits it exactly right, except that Obama will wait for a while, and maybe see if he can avoid saying anything, or anything but the most noncomittal thing, and he won’t specifically say the verdict was wrong, but rather say something that does not definitively say the verdict was wrong but rather, seems to imply that – but could be read as not implying that also.

    probably, but , imply that.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  220. 209.For crying out loud. What kind of s**t State Attorney office is that? The jury got it wrong? No! “We had faith in our case — the jury saw it differently”. The clown is trying to incite a riot?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:38 pm

    The more he keeps flapping his gums the greater my own urge to riot becomes. This travesty is an example of the jury getting it wrong?

    I won’t be happy until I see BDLR behind bars for his crimes.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  221. “Sometimes I can be a little more blunt [than Mark O’Mara]. I think the prosecution of George Zimmerman was disgraceful.”
    — Don West, Zimmerman defense team co-counsel

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  222. Ok, the press conference is just a new low. I have cease to be shocked but its still a horrorshow.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  223. I saw a lot of reversals in the Fourth Judicial (Coreys’) Circuit in my perusal of Florida case law.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:42 pm

    Maybe that’s why they set the burden so high. Maybe they don’t trust prosecutorial discretion in that neck of the woods.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  224. 218. Maybe he should. Because he will never, ever, ever, be a cop.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  225. so on we worked

    and waited for the light

    and went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
    and Angela Corey, one calm summer night

    went home and put new batteries in her vibrator

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  226. Don West praised the jury for preventing a travesty from turning into a tragedy.

    ropelight (ab7f6c)

  227. I have an eight-pack of orange Crush, 12 Kit Kats, and 6 Snickers. I’m primed to party.

    nk (875f57)

  228. Imagine how much money the taxpayers in Florida just paid to prosecute and administer this trial. Such a waste.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  229. Let’s forget about the (fictional) 12 Angry Men and salute the real-life 6 Brave Women.

    DN (09d6b1)

  230. Quietly cheering for Zimmerman, family, friends, and defense team, sorrowing for Martins. I don’t think I could be a lawyer, just too stressful.

    #204, CK. They don’t (well, for some crimes they do); their burden here was to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the claim of self-defense was false. It can be done, this prosecution didn’t come close.

    Many thanks for the prayers. She’s 92, and needs all the help she can get.

    htom (412a17)

  231. So, in Florida, if I start a fist fight and then shoot and kill someone the state has to somehow prove that I did not act in self defense?

    CK (ae4bf1)

  232. white chocolate kit-kats were sublime

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  233. 18. Maybe he should. Because he will never, ever, ever, be a cop.

    Comment by tifosa (3c9c21) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:44 pm

    He’s overcome a lot. The legal system says he committed no crime here. He put himself through tremendous risk for the sake of his neighbor. he definitely could have benefited from training and mentorship, but he seems to have a lot of the essential character a police officer should have, right?

    Of course, he may also wish to become a lawyer now, having seen the value of good lawyers.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  234. It’s good to know you can chase somebody down who’s not doing anything wrong, fight them, shoot them, and claim “stand your ground.”

    You win. Enjoy the new, improved murder rate you just created.

    This will make Charles Bronson look like a slacker.

    One day, hopefully not so long from now and without too many body bags, you will come to regret the Frankenstein you’ve created.

    Fuck you all for the Dodge City you’ve made.

    JEA (fb1111)

  235. George Zimmerman Not Guilty!

    I feel bad about Trayvon Martin. I do not relish his death and I feel bad for his parents. But convicting Zimmerman would have been very wrong given what happened. This remains a tragedy, but a conviction would have been a travesty.

    EBL (5a49c0)

  236. Patterico, the jury announced that they would have no statement tonight, or take questions.
    Maybe tomorrow?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  237. Beldar, filing decisions can be difficult, and in a close case I can see following the procedure you suggest. I can imagine a case where the issue of whether an appropriate level of force was used is a close enough question that you let a jury (or a grand jury) decide.

    But in general I think prosecutors should make these calls, and from what I have seen of this case it was not really a close call. I like to think I would have made the decision on my own not to prosecute.

    And you are right, I say this as a private citizen, as I always do on this blog.

    Patterico (8b6cc4)

  238. So, in Florida, if I start a fist fight and then shoot and kill someone the state has to somehow prove that I did not act in self defense?

    Comment by CK (ae4bf1) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:49 pm

    In every common law jurisdiction if you raise the issue with slight evidence, imdw.

    nk (875f57)

  239. I’d be very curious to know how much that trial–especially with all the extra needed security and media accommodation would have cost the tax payers. Does anybody in the legal profession care to offer even a ballpark figure?

    elissa (0faa93)

  240. But in general I think prosecutors should make these calls, and from what I have seen of this case it was not really a close call.

    Well didn’t the county D.A. make that call, but the politicians didn’t like it and appointed Corey as special prosecutor?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  241. 2287. Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 7/12/2013 @ 10:30 pm

    Five of them are white and one is black. Their ethnicity is unknown.

    2288. Comment by Steve57 (7c82fc) — 7/12/2013 @ 10:37 pm

    By ethnicity, Mr. Feets, they mean their politics.

    What that mainly meant was that they didn’t know if any of them were Hispanic. It’s a separate question on the Census form and they always say Hispanics can be of any race. There are other elements to ethnicity too, of course. You could break down the category of white – or black too, for that matter.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  242. It has got to be a painful night for Trayvon’s family, since to them this man was responsible for their son’s death. I hope they understand the larger value in a justice system that places a burden of proof on the state, so that an innocent person will not be convicted on shoddy evidence. I doubt that’s much solace from their perspective.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  243. Comment by CK (ae4bf1) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:49 pm

    The first punch was thrown by TM, NOT GZ!

    You’re completely entitled to your own opinion, not to your own facts.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  244. So, in Florida, if I start a fist fight and then shoot and kill someone the state has to somehow prove that I did not act in self defense?

    Beyond a _reasonable_ doubt. Which, if the evidence shows that (e.g. the other guy has injuries other than the gunshot), isn’t necessarily hard.

    But you are obviously suggesting that this is what Zimmerman did, and hoping we didn’t notice.

    Let’s turn it around: If someone jumps you in the dark and beats you to the ground and starts slamming your head against the pavement, and you shoot them, then certainly the state has to prove that it wasn’t self-defense.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  245. The lady is Puerto Rican, from Chicago. I may even know her but the last time I saw the one I am thinking of she only had five kids.

    nk (875f57)

  246. Don West is tearing the prosecution a new arsehole.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  247. Mr. Finkelman justice is not supposed to devolve to a discussion of juror ethnicity over and against juror race but the whore fascist propaganda slut media assumes that we all know that of course it does

    is all I meant by that

    America is just embarrassing anymore

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  248. So, in Florida, if I start a fist fight and then shoot and kill someone the state has to somehow prove that I did not act in self defense?

    Comment by CK (ae4bf1) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:49 pm

    Zimmerman started the fist fight?

    Gerald A (130406)

  249. Well didn’t the county D.A. make that call, but the politicians didn’t like it and appointed Corey as special prosecutor?

    In the JAG Corps, they would have been screaming about Command Influence.
    Perhaps this is something legislators need to look at?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  250. So, in Florida, if I start a fist fight and then shoot and kill someone the state has to somehow prove that I did not act in self defense?

    Comment by CK (ae4bf1) — 7/13/2013 @ 7:49 pm

    There’s a lot more to it than that.

    For one, the evidence strongly showed that George did not start a fight. Nothing George did justified Trayvon pummelling him into the ground or smacking his head into the pavement.

    You can’t just say that George creeped him out and that ‘started the fight’, after all, and Trayvon’s girlfiend testified to Trayvon’s hateful view of George… it was far nastier than George’s 911 call, with racism that NBC didn’t have to add.

    If you ARE the aggressor, the law says you have to attempt to retreat or have no ability to retreat in order to have a valid self defense claim, so in your hypothetical, which doesn’t really apply to George Zimmerman, I guess the answer could be yes.

    The state has the burden of proof, thankfully. Pray you never live somewhere where it doesn’t.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  251. Now the media is getting their share from the defense.
    You go, Don.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  252. This is awesome.

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  253. Just don’t shoot anybody in Florida, askeptic. Strike that. Don’t shoot in Florida, period. It’s worth 20 years.

    nk (875f57)

  254. I have a FL CCW.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  255. 253- Oops, that may have been Mark, I was listening, but not watching.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  256. Illinois residents can get them too. No reciprocity required by Florida.

    nk (875f57)

  257. You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  258. IL – It will be interesting to see what the requirements are for an IL CCW once the system gets up and running.
    Of course, residents of Cook Co, and the City of Chicago, will still be prohibited because Rom thinks guns are evil.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  259. What’s sad is that even with Zimmerman’s acquittal, the very fact the case went to trial in the first place — and generated all the attendant publicity — has furthered the risk-averse, politically-correct-crazed, Nidal-Hasan-ized nature of this society.

    Several years ago I was a bit bothered and puzzled by the still-segregated housing patterns throughout America, or patterns that haven’t changed as much over the past 50 years as one would have predicted (or hoped for) well after the era of civil rights. But that was before I realized just how corrosive and disingenuous liberal attitudes could be to a populace or community.

    I remember a liberal (a white woman) back in 1995 bemoaning the OJ verdict, observing the cheering and partying of crowds of mostly black people, and asking if that was what all the Freedom Marches and similar civil-right protests in the 1960s, etc, had led to. Her reaction has long stood out in my mind. Perhaps some of that is evident in some of this…

    chicagotribune.com, Clarence Page, July 10, 2013:

    A new poll suggests that Americans, including black Americans, tend to think blacks are more racist than whites or Hispanics. I don’t think we are. We only sound like it sometimes.

    The poll by the conservative-leaning Rasmussen Reports finds a larger minority of Americans, 37 percent, think most black Americans are racist compared with the 15 percent of the respondents who think most white Americans are racist and the 18 percent who think that about Hispanic-Americans.

    I expected the numbers to fall heavily along racial and partisan lines, and they do. For example, 49 percent of conservatives consider most blacks to be racist compared with 21 percent of liberals. Considering how many of today’s conservatives tend to hear any racial grievance as “playing the race card,” I’m not surprised.

    What defies the usual stereotypes is the sizable minority of blacks, 31 percent, who agreed with the 38 percent of whites in the poll who think most blacks are racist. That’s higher than the 24 percent of blacks (and 10 percent of whites) who think most whites are racist.

    That stereotype-shattering result might suggest that we black folks have some work to do in cleaning up our own prejudices. Understood. But what? The poll offers not a clue.

    Although “black people can be prejudiced,” [filmmaker maker Spike] Lee allowed, we “don’t have the power” to enforce the sweeping institutional racism that perpetuates social, economic and political inequality. Maybe not, I say, but we’re moving up.

    Lee’s argument was easier to make before African-Americans gained as much institutional power and influence as some of us are beginning to achieve, all the way up to the White House.

    As we aspire to full equality, I believe we need to hold ourselves as accountable as we hold Paula Deen, Don Imus, Michael “Kramer” Richards and every other racial gaffe-maker.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  260. Now O’Mara is rightly blaming the media for fanning the flames and misstating the case against his client.

    Damn right, O’Mara. Go. Don’t leave all the arsehole ripping to Don West.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  261. The message from the defense, both in the courtroom, and the press-room, was much more coherent.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  262. O’Mara did a good job of whaling on the media and the prosecutors, too.

    nk (875f57)

  263. Dustin@7:55–I too feel bad for the family of Trayvon. But much of that is for how they were manipulated and their son was used for a “cause” that had little or nothing to do with the facts of the shooting in Sanford Florida. The parents more than anybody else know what their son had become and knew he was increasingly out of control. That is why he was suspended from school, that is why he was shuttled between them in hopes he could be salvaged. They could certainly see he had become a problem to himself as well as a problem for them. Both parents were in the picture and loved him, but I suspect his mom herself was a little afraid of him before she sent him to his dad in Sanford for the last time.

    elissa (0faa93)

  264. I’m sure that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are “outraged.”

    We may even hear from Reverend Jeremiah Wright Wrong.

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  265. Speaking of fanning the flames, next up the Martin family mouthpieces.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  266. It’s too bad TM’s not a Muslim, as he’s certainly become a Martyr for the Cause
    (do they have 72 virgins for that?).

    askeptic (2bb434)

  267. Elissa linked to this jury profile in the previous thread:

    http://www.local10.com/news/guide-george-zimmerman-trial-jurors-profiles/-/1717324/20659720/-/u3loj0z/-/index.html

    So we have:

    1) A black woman, mother of 8 children, married for approximately ten years, who works as a nurse in Alzheimer’s ward and who moved from crime ridden Chicago four months ago, and watches Reality TV mostly and uses Facebook. She was arrested once.

    All the other jurors are white.

    2) A woman married to a chemical engineer, who has lives in Seminole County for seven months and previously lived in California and Iowa, and has worled for almost twenty years as a safety officer and has a 28 year old son who works in the fast food industry.

    3) A woman originally from Atlanta, who has lived in central Florida since the 1980s and is now retired. She is single and has no children. Her parents are still alive and live in Jacksonville. She once ran a 1200-person call center.

    4) A woman married to a attorney who deals with space law and who works for a chiropracter and uses newspapers to line her bird case. She has two adult daughters. She described protests in Sanford as rioting but also described Trayvon as a boy of color.

    5) A mother of two teenagers aged 11 and 13 (11 is a teenager?) who has been unemployed since September and was once the victime of domestic violence and also has been arrested.

    6) A woman who is longtime resident of Sanford, Florida, whose son is an attorney who deals with foreclosures and bankruptcies and whose daughter did not think it was acceptable for 17-year-old Trayvon Martin to be out late at night (many people apparently didn’t realize this happened at about 7 pm) She only looks at the Orlando Sentinel for coupons and relies on an over-the-air antenna for T.V. news. The State wanted to get rid of her because of what she said her daughter had said.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  268. I live in California. I can have a revolver if I keep it encased in cement inside a safe surrounded by a moat filled with alligators. But get a carry permit? No, that’s only possible if I’m a special friend of the sheriff’s department.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  269. Speaking of fanning the flames, next up the Martin family mouthpieces.

    I don’t think the parents are stupid or evil. I think they were hurting and the race-baiting political types and lawyer types got a hold of them. They’ve watched the entire trial. I don’t think they will be encouraging their attorney to fan flames.

    We’ll see.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  270. Correction from nk @246. The woman from Chicago isn’t black but Puerto Rican.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  271. So far the Martin family lawyers are showing the class the prosecution should have.

    nk (875f57)

  272. That was a good statement, and I think the parents will have had a major input into them. Good for them.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  273. *into it (the statement)

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  274. Very good statements by the Parks and Crump.

    nk (875f57)

  275. So far the Martin family lawyers are showing the class the prosecution should have.

    To be fair, I think the parents influenced this rather than the other way around. Not a fan of the Martin attorneys.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  276. nk,

    You think the prosecutors showed no class ?
    You are an arbiter of humility and civility ?
    Seriously ?

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  277. Did you notice the Black Panthers outside with their banner trying to stir $hit.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  278. I think I’ll limit my nonsense to: If the jury says not guilty, then that’s the way it shall be.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  279. 279- more….

    I wonder it they’re on the payroll of the CRS?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  280. Black racists and their cynical leftist co-conspirators lost their attempt to hijack the American legal system to railroad an Hispanic samaritan for defending himself against a young brutal thug. They failed, justice prevailed.

    ropelight (ab7f6c)

  281. Occasionally, but too rarely, the Good Guys win one.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  282. Did the Martin’s attorneys just compare Trayvon to Emmett Till?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  283. Actually, the police did have to usher a few away from the gathering outside…Zimmerman supporters.

    tifosa (3c9c21)

  284. Crump was much less inflammatory than he’s been in the past. But still he was making this a case about civil rights and race when he was repeating that tweet from MLK’s daughter. I believe he compared Trayvon Martin to Emmet Till, but the sound wasn’t very good.

    It seems Crump desperately wants to make this about race and civil rights even now. Even after the state has insisted it’s not about race, and his own partner had said so. But I don’t blame any of his actions on the Martins. No doubt they’ve influenced him to tone it down as time went on.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  285. That’s what I heard, DRJ.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  286. It seems Crump desperately wants to make this about race and civil rights even now.

    He wants to enhance his power and profit. Circumstances, and his clients, reigned him in (as I predicted they would).

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  287. Doesn’t Crump have his own set of problems that he may have to answer for in this matter?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  288. Great 2nd UPDATE to Zimmerman verdict at 10:05 over at Insty!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  289. ==Did the Martin’s attorneys just compare Trayvon to Emmett Till?==

    Yes. Very unfortunate. Very untrue comparison. Emmett Till was a true victim of the worst of Jim Crow America, vigilante “justice”, corrupt law enforcement, and a court system rigged against justice for blacks at that time.

    elissa (0a5f31)

  290. Did the Martin’s attorneys just compare Trayvon to Emmett Till?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:25 pm

    There is only one interpretation of this that makes sense to me. These people see skin color and nothing else.

    Dustin (a255d3)

  291. 289.Doesn’t Crump have his own set of problems that he may have to answer for in this matter?

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:28 pm

    Yes, and so do the prosecutors. This article touches on both spots of trouble.

    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/appellate-court-rules-george-zimmerman-attorneys-can-depose-benjamin-crump/-/1637132/20404104/-/y3086xz/-/index.html

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  292. This Obama President person will unite the country. He’s all for peace and justice. Or whatever.

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  293. Well Crump is really the representative of Sharpton,
    who came to public notice, fronting a fraud, a quarter century ago.

    narciso (3fec35)

  294. What’s the record in FL on disbarment proceedings?
    Vigorous?
    Lackadaisical?
    Nobody cares?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  295. 291.==Did the Martin’s attorneys just compare Trayvon to Emmett Till?==

    Yes. Very unfortunate. Very untrue comparison. Emmett Till was a true victim of the worst of Jim Crow America, vigilante “justice”, corrupt law enforcement, and a court system rigged against justice for blacks at that time.

    Comment by elissa (0a5f31) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:33 pm

    Exactly. And what’s the point of comparing Trayvon Martin to Emmett Till?

    Which is why I can’t be a fan of that little press conference these attorneys just held. I never expected it to be inflammatory (when I mentioned fanning the flames I was referring to Crump’s earlier escapades).

    On the one hand there were calls for calm. On the other hand there were blatant comparisons to murders that justify anything but calm.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  296. nk,

    You think the prosecutors showed no class ?
    You are an arbiter of humility and civility ?
    Seriously ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (2ac66f) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:20 pm

    Absolutely. To all three questions.

    nk (875f57)

  297. I think there is a recognition by the pro-Martin crowd and the media that public opinion is on Zimmerman’s side. And the talking heads are not to be trusted in the aftermath any more than in the transpiring of this travesty.

    nk (875f57)

  298. nk,

    LOL.

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  299. The jury is not to be criticized or praised but only thanked for their service. A small thing — some people give it more weight than others. They are different from public officials who are always fair game.

    nk (875f57)

  300. CK, by an odd coincidence, your hypothetical bore no resemblance to the Zimmerman trial.

    SPQR (c0f8e5)

  301. This is a great verdict.

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  302. Emmett Till was slurping purple drank and tweeting about guns?

    Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec)

  303. The racial grievance industrial complex will have their outrages, and the holier than thou crowd will scold some of us for celebrating justice rendered, but I’m unapologetically thrilled about this.

    Civilization remains a collective objective, if only for a little while longer.

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  304. Well, Facebook is hopping with evil people, that is for sure.

    Still, a good opportunity to remove evil from one’s life is how I choose to look at it.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  305. It is still not legal to beat in someone’s head just because he’s a “creepyass cracker”.

    SPQR (c0f8e5)

  306. 284. 292. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:25 pm

    Did the Martin’s attorneys just compare Trayvon to Emmett Till?

    Comment by Dustin (a255d3) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:34 pm

    There is only one interpretation of this that makes sense to me. These people see skin color and nothing else.

    No. They want b other people to see nothing but skin color, because it gives them lots of “injustices” to fight and makes their job of lying easier.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  307. I think I’ll limit my nonsense to: If the jury says not guilty, then that’s the way it shall be.
    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:23 pm

    — If you read the detailed verdict you’ll see that they also found him NOT SKINHEAD.

    Icy (a1aa72)

  308. Hope Corey goes to jail is disbarred for the evidence issue. And De la whatever his name.

    Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec)

  309. Meanwhile, there have probably been about fifteen or so black-on-black shootings in Chicago, since the verdict has been announced.

    *crickets*

    Elephant Stone (2ac66f)

  310. Throwing this out there… if there are no riots… I submit it is bc our country is not the racist hot pot the democrats and race hustlers try to say it is…I think deep down they KNOW this so they were trying to get ahead of things by ‘pleading for calm’ after a verdict…so they can claim they are still effective and relevant by saying ‘See we talked and said no riots and the people listened-you guys OWE us”….it may seem convoluted but aren’t most of their ideas and schemes?

    Pamela (17a6bb)

  311. Censure or reprimand, tops.

    nk (875f57)

  312. #313, may not have riots but I can 100% assure you there will be black on white crime as a result. Maybe 1, maybe 2 but not 0.

    Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec)

  313. Pamela, they’d be more right saying “Where yo riots, racists?” And I would not blame them too much if they did. Do we have the right to expect the worst from black people?

    nk who predicted riots if Obama won (875f57)

  314. Actually, the police did have to usher a few away from the gathering outside…Zimmerman supporters.
    Comment by tifosa (3c9c21) — 7/13/2013 @ 8:26 pm

    — Yes, it was probably a prudent move to keep them as far away from thug-life as possible.

    Icy (a1aa72)

  315. Actually they were looking for a little bit more than race.

    The black person killed by a white person needs not to have had a gun or knife on him, [that’s all the proof they need that the shooting or whatever was not justified] and the white person needs not to have been arrested, or at least not charged with murder (because then, there’s nothing for them to do!)

    Also, the white person has to have not killed the black person incidentally, but rather used some weapon that can be expected to kill, and they do need the family of the dead person on board.

    After that they can distort the truth and manufacture evidence.

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  316. 308.It is still not legal to beat in someone’s head just because he’s a “creepyass cracker”.

    Comment by SPQR (c0f8e5) — 7/13/2013 @ 9:05 pm

    So MLK’s dream remains unfulfilled. At least according to Al Sharpton et al.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  317. If you really want to feel the love…

    http://twitchy.com/

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  318. That was Vizzini like expression, Baldwin, Modine and Moore, like the bar scene in Mos Eiseley.

    narciso (3fec35)

  319. I see that Rihana is upset with the verdict. I want to tell a Rihana joke but I forgot the punchline.

    nk who predicted riots if Obama won (875f57)

  320. Steve57, since Al Sharpton has a body count already from his racial riot incitement, Sharpton can kiss my white ass.

    SPQR (768505)

  321. ” I want to tell a Rihana joke but I forgot the punchline.”

    That’s funny.

    SPQR (768505)

  322. “No. They want b other people to see nothing but skin color, because it gives them lots of “injustices” to fight and makes their job of lying easier.”

    Sammy, I make fun of you sometimes, but that was a very good, concise statement by you.

    SPQR (768505)

  323. Al Sharpton is talking about a federal investigation and calling a meeting of preachers and plannimng a trip to Florida in the next few days,.

    Meanewhile, he’s got this other case in Valdosta Georgia, where a high school student got accidentally smothered by rolled up wrestling type place mats while he was alone in a gym, but he wants to charge that somebody murdered him. Of course the student was black.

    http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Rev-Al-Sharpton-Speaks-At-Valdosta-Church-Tonight-206109821.html

    Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab)

  324. #6 Comment by Leviticus

    Here is the irony of it all. Each of them (TM & GZ) may have profiled each other. F’ing punks, creepy ass white cracker. They “profiled” each other based upon each others actions, although a good argument could possibly be made that TM’s profile of GZ was more race based for what the evidence shows.

    This reminds me of the white cop vs the black professor (have a beer with the prez) case and how the media freaked out over the actions of the white cop while not holding the black professor to the same standard. Patterico made an excellent point at that time, perhaps the white cop through his many years of experience sees mostly black males breaking and entering in that part of town. Being the flip side of the many years of experience the black professor has being that he always gets harassed by white cops. The liberal media could careless about the other side of the story, they watched Mississippi Burning and damn if they are not going to spin each and every story to satisfy their own preconceived prejudice.

    MSL (5f601f)

  325. ok everybody stop profiling everybody else

    NOW

    I mean it

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  326. don’t make me get up from this chair

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  327. Words I thought I’d never say; I loved this tweet by Michael Moore.

    Had a gun-toting Trayvon Martin stalked an unarmed George Zimmerman, and then shot him to death… DO I EVEN NEED TO COMPLETE THIS SENTENCE?

    My immediate reaction was “can you complete that sentence?”

    Based on what little I’ve seen of his work the answer is no.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  328. also i hate country songs what have the word “cancer” in them

    just stop it

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  329. The local “news” doesn’t know what to do now. Nobody is marching or rioting except in SFO. Of course that’s portrayed as something spontaneous.

    Maybe they can drum up a good riot by tomorrow morning.

    Patricia (be0117)

  330. What is wrong with profiling? We all do it. It is part of our self preservation mechanism. We identify threats and are aware of them. The idea that profiling is some kind of crime is nonsense. How could we even have a neighborhood watch without profileing?

    Rick Caird (eedc02)

  331. profiling is of the devil Mr. Caird

    it was on NPR

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  332. Aww, yeah. The racists can’t let Zimmerman go.

    http://www.naacp.org/press/entry/naacp-statement-in-the-acquittal-of-george-zimmerman-in-the-killing-of-tray

    We are outraged and heartbroken over today’s verdict,” said Benjamin Todd Jealous, President and CEO of the NAACP. “We stand with Trayvon’s family and we are called to act. We will pursue civil rights charges with the Department of Justice, we will continue to fight for the removal of Stand Your Ground laws in every state, and we will not rest until racial profiling in all its forms is outlawed.”

    Here’s a thought. Why don’t they start with the people who look at white people and call them creepy ass crackers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeDY1p46vEk&feature=player_embedded

    I hear it’s a very common term in Rachel Jeantel’s community.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  333. I’m going to go outside, smoke a cigarette, and profile the girls going to the bar in their micro-minis and ****me shoes.

    nk (875f57)

  334. NAACP still lying, I see. Stand Your Ground law was irrelevant.

    The idea that its racist to allow someone to defend themselves is the kind of horse manure we’ve come to expect from them.

    SPQR (768505)

  335. Profiling.

    SPQR (768505)

  336. Nk, that sounds like a fine plan. The next time I am in Chicago, I would love to join you in an evening of scotch, cigars, and girl watching.

    Chuck Bartowski (92b4d8)

  337. I thought that was a weird statement by the NAACP, too. Personally, I don’t need a “no duty to retreat” law. I can’t run. I’m not even sure that I need Illinois’s new concealed carry law if I put a lock on the storage compartment of my walker and keep the gun in there.

    nk (875f57)

  338. I hope we can put this behind us and start fighting the racist ballerina Rahm Emanuel for letting all the black Chicago yutes shoot each other. Now there’s a crime.

    Colonel Cochran (017a27)

  339. That is true crime.

    Colonel Haiku (017a27)

  340. shooting people is almost as bad as profiling Mr. colonel

    there should be a shiny four-color brochure about this

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  341. I must confess, I just took a sideways gander at Mr. feets.
    I think he’s one of THEM.
    You know ‘them’ — the anti-Fascists!
    Bears watching.
    [I denounce myself]

    Icy (a1aa72)

  342. Justice is on a roll.
    Next up – impeachment

    mg (31009b)

  343. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/13/2013 @ 9:52 pm

    Sharpton will find that the four utes were being chased by this cracker when he was struck by a car.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  344. ain’t got no truck with fascists no sir

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  345. According to

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

    The gunshot came at 7:16:55 and the first police officer, Timothy Smith, arrived near the crime scene sometime and got out of his vehicle about 7:17:40. He then had to spend some time looking. (If the fight had still been going on he might have located it sooner)

    The photo of George Zimmerman’s head injuries was taken at 7:19:07 and George Zimmerman was taken into custody at 7:19:43. He first had questioned him if he had seen the subject (TM?) and he replied he had shot he subject and he was still armed. Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived after he had taken GZ into custody.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  346. At a party tonight I heard someone say this means its okay to shoot Republicans.

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  347. I can’t help but think the MSM is attempting to control our thoughts and actions. At least the MSM of the former USSR and Nazi Germany were state controlled, our MSM is “free” allegedly.

    Imagine this: A young black couple in Knoxville, TN go out for a night on the town, but instead are viciously murdered – their bodies mutilated and burned, after being brutally gang raped, sodomized, and tortured at the hands of five white thugs. The story easily makes it onto the front page of the national news, right? For weeks, we hear of little else outside of the manhunt that takes place for the suspected perps. Pictures of the perps are shown on national TV, and the mediots play up the racial angle of the crime, which leads to commentary from purveyors of ‘social justice’ exclaiming that the white suspects are guilty of what ‘all’ white people are guilty of, and that’s ‘hating black people’, in this case, to the extreme.

    Such a crime did in fact occur, but reverse the races: the perps were black, and the victims were Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom.

    Controlling thoughts and minds in the Mississippi Burning narrative….

    MSL (5f601f)

  348. The whole question of when the last telephone call of Trayvon Martin took place (and between whom) could, I suspect, get some people involved in this case in trouble.

    If I am right, that call ended before George Zimmerman’s call to the police ended. They never spoke to each other during the call between GZ and police.

    The timeline that is commonly given has the two calls overlapping.

    http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/ (This person did not know where the mailboxes were)

    Earlier timeline:

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/NEWS/usaedition/2012-04-12-trayvon-cover-timeline_ST_U.htm

    TM might have stopped to make a call.

    View from LL has 6:54 PM TM makes call to Dee Dee. 7:04 TM gets another call, puts other call on hold and finishes within a minute. And then goes back. Call to Dee Dee ends at 7:12. LL does not mention another call. Wikipedia has the girl calling again in the 7:12 minute and he call going dead in the 7:16 minute.

    Rachel Jeantel’s testimony was this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Florida_vs._George_Zimmerman

    Rachel Jeantel, Witness #8,….testified that she was on the phone with Martin during the incident and that they were on the phone together while Martin was at the 7-Eleven, but got disconnected and Martin later called her back. Jeantel testified that during the second call, Martin said a man was watching him, but that she did not think it was a “big idea”. Jeantel said that Martin described the person watching him as “a creepy ass cracker”, and Jeantel told Martin that the man might be a rapist. Jeantel said that Martin told her he was going to try and “lose him” by leaving the mail area and going home, but the man followed him. While Martin was walking, Martin and Jeantel discussed the All-Star game, and Martin said “now the nigger is following me.” Jeantel said she advised him to run, but that Martin said he was not going to run and that he was “right outside” his house. She testified that Martin then said, “nigger is behind me” and “what you following me for?” She testified that she heard a voice say “what you doing around here” and then heard a thump, and rolling in the grass. She testified that she also heard Martin say “get off.”

    The problem with this, besides the long time between the 7/11 and GZ telephone call [it never was properly established where TM was] is that if this call ended at 7:12 that would be during teh GZ call to police.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  349. do the people what want to shoot republicans have any actual guns?

    what I have seen of this “CNN” suggests that they are unarmed

    and righteously so

    Piers Morgan uber alles
    , as they say

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  350. It looks like the Zimmerman defense team is at least partially prepared for the next perversion of the legal system to assault their client.

    http://therightscoop.com/mark-omara-if-someone-sues-george-zimmerman-we-will-seek-and-we-will-get-immunity/

    You really have to watch the video to see how confident he is of succeeding. When he says “and we will see just how many civil lawsuits are spawned from this fiasco” it almost sounds like he’s looking forward to it now that his client is no longer imperiled by a criminal prosecution run amuck.

    Steve57 (7c82fc)

  351. I don’t know if they have any guns but they sure hate conservatives. I have to leave the room at most parties in LA. Why do I bother to go other than to be nice to my wife.

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  352. “We will pursue civil rights charges with the Department of Justice…”

    Won’t support that. What they’re proposing is just a trick to get around the constitutional prohibition against trying someone more than once for the same crime. The jury has spoken, the trial appears to be a fair one…and, it’s over.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  353. This http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/06/28/george-zimmerman-trial-rachel-jeantel-timeline

    offers the following timeline:

    7:09:34 Start of Zimmerman call to police non-emergency number (it lasts 4 minutes and 7 seconds ending at 7:13:41)

    7:11:43 Zimmerman reports Martin is running.

    7:11:47 Rachel Jeantel call disconnects.

    7:15:43 Subsequent call disconnects.

    7:16:11 First call to 911 about a fight.

    I don’t know where these TM call times come from, but I suspect some people could get into a lot of trouble oover that and over what was said.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  354. given that Rachel Jeantel is an admitted purjurer, nothing she says has any credibility, unless there is outside confirmation of her claim

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  355. Wall Street Journal July 13/14 2013, page A3:

    At one point, Mr. O’Mara asked for silence and let a digital clock run for four minutes – the length of time he said elapsed between a phone conversation Mr. Martin had with a friend, in which he supposedly said he planned to elude Mr. Zimmerman, and his death.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  356. what i find amazing is that a willfully corrupt judicial system hell bent on convicting an innocent man managed to seat an honest jury.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  357. No second (or third) call here?

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  358. Trial by (a chosen for the occasion) jury is a pretty powerful protection.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  359. Why do I bother to go other than to be nice to my wife.
    Comment by AZ Bob (c11d35) — 7/13/2013 @ 11:47 pm

    take me with you and we can talk guns and shooting all night whilst we scare the motor mouths. 😎

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  360. And the prosecution also, maybe, was just going through the motions.

    There was no perjured testmony, except what they got from the Martin family lawyers.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  361. What I’m wondering is what technical proof there is of the timing of those calls to the TM phone.

    Also, if in fact, she was the one talking to him.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  362. Mark O’Mara also said that if Trayvon Martin had been shot through the hip and survived “he would have been charged with aggravated battery, two counts.” (New York Times Saturday July 13, page A13)

    One problem I found is that Mark O’Mara kept on saying concrete is a weapon. Did he not understand things or was he trying to obfusticate? By the time the gunshot was fired, they were on the grass.

    It’s still self-defense, and still danger, especially because George Zimmerman had a gun, which might have been grabbed, and used on him. But they were off the walkway.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  363. The prosecution was trying to obfusticate the fact that George Zimmerman getting out of the car and chasing Trayvon Martin had no connection with what happened later. He did stop when the dispatcher asked him to.

    But, later, he did not want to meet the police back at the mailboxes.

    The only reason for that would be he hoped they would find Trayvon Martin if he was still there.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  364. Justice was not served. How is justice served when a young boy lost his life over some nonsense. Trayvon is dead, while Zimmerman is free and free to kill another innocent soul. There was no reason for Zimmerman to feel THAT threatened by Trayvon that he would want to kill him. Just to put it out there, if a black man was to kill a Caucasian boy, do you honestly think that black man would be found guilty? The best system is an equal system. The jurors who decided to let Zimmerman need to see how it feels to lose a child over stupidity and if it was their child, how would they react? In deciding this case, they should have placed their feet in Trayvon’s shoes. Or his mother’s shoes, or a young black adult’s shoes. CHANGE is definitely coming!!!

    Nicole G (246512)

  365. What I’m wondering is what technical proof there is of the timing of those calls to the TM phone.

    ask the NSA…

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  366. It is possible that George Zimmerman thought meeting at the mail boxes was a bad idea, because the police would arrive before he got there, and then maybe leave.

    But it should not have taken him more than 2 minutes to get there, even counting walking back about 100 to 150 feet to his truck.

    It sounds like he was trying to spot Trayvon Martin, especially since he was worried he was lurking around him. (since he was afraid to give out his address)

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  367. St Thug Life the Criminal was no “innocent soul”…

    he was a violent young man, with a history of criminal acts, violence and a drug habit that involved consuming dextromethorphan in quantities calculated to cause mental states similar to that of people who use PCP or ketamine.

    he got killed because he was stupid enough to attack a stranger in a state that allows CCW for self-protection against violent criminals.

    here in the reality based community, we call that “natural selection”.

    HTH, NicoleG

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  368. Comment by Nicole G (246512) — 7/14/2013 @ 12:28 am

    How is justice served when a young boy lost his life over some nonsense.

    The fight might very well be nonsensical, and pointless, but it was almost certainly started by Trayvon Martin.

    The best that can be said for him is that he thought George Zimmerman was the leader of a local Bloods gang who sized him up as a gangsta belonging to a rival group and didn’t want him in his territory and was about to call his crew to beat him up.

    But this would still not be a defense to aggravated battery, because this action is not reasonable.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  369. I suspect that Zimmerman could make a small fortune soon in slander and libel suits. It’s not like he’d fear discovery at this point.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  370. There was no reason for Zimmerman to feel THAT threatened by Trayvon that he would want to kill him.

    You know this how? You just FEEL it? Because that is not what we heard in court. Far from it.

    Do you really want a system where people are put in jail for the rest of their lives because it is politically expedient? Guess what — it won’t benefit minorities, not even a little bit.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  371. Comment by Nicole G (246512) — 7/14/2013 @ 12:28 am

    Trayvon Martin was far from an innocent soul. That was why the prosecutors attempted to hide the information on his phone. That was why there were no character witnesses besides family.

    Is George Zimmerman free to kill another similarly innocent soul? Yes. Should he have felt that threatened by a 6’+ teenage football player who had knocked him down, bashed his head against concrete multiple times, and pounded on him with his fists? Well, in the words of both the forensic pathologist and the expert on force (not to mention the investigating detective), yes.

    Do I think if the tables were turned and a Black man (blacker than George Zimmerman?) were arrested for exactly the same crime would he get off with a not guilty charge? That Black man would not have even been charged were the circumstances precisely the same, since Zimmerman would not have been charged had it not been for race hustlers in the White House and elsewhere. So the Black man would likely have lived his life and not been threatened with life in prison.

    iconotastic (8bdff0)

  372. But of course the real point of all this has been a “Counting coup”, where getting people to hate and harden their hearts to their fellow Americans was pretty much the point all along.

    Us versus Them.

    I just wish that people who feel so emotionally about this show trial realized just how badly they were being played.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  373. they aren’t that smart, Kevin, or they wouldn’t have been played to begin with.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  374. fat guy with handgun on dark night, raises it towards me meaning business and I have space to work with… I dodge and run into the dark.
    I bet he misses.
    If he has his weapon out and we are too close for me to turn, I attack the gun arm/hand and try to break/chew it off his finger. Zero reason to waste effort on punching his nose.

    But if it looks like he’s a wannabe who just gonna hold me, I just stay calm, raise my hands tell him OK you got me call 911.

    The left is saying he profiled (loaded word these days) Trayvon, stalked (another loaded word) Trayvon, then cornered Trayvon (in a place without any corners) but lets say Zimmerman hunted Trayvon down, got him close and still took 40 seconds of “tussle” before Zimmerman shot him, and if this was true any smart person who sees there are lit house all around screams help call 911 HE’s GOT A GUN DON’T SHOOT ME! For the full 40 seconds even while fighting

    I had a stupid little gangster trying to be all badass with his gangster friends slashing at and stabbing at me outside a small neighborhood bar with a knife and I was pretty loud about “no need for a knife, put the knife away” hoping one, none of his friends get behind me and sucker punches me or shoves me into him and two, that someone hears KNIFE and calls 911.
    Bartender heard ruckus, me yelling KNIFE, calls 911 and the two minute warning siren goes off in the not so far distance and we all scatter into the wind before the cops get there.
    I run because who knows what sort of bs happens: drunk in public, I get pissed off about that nonsense.. drunk and disorderly. Great. Better to leave before the cops get there and really screw up the evening

    steveg (794291)

  375. except Zimmerman didn’t have his gun out until St Thug Life had him pinned to the ground and was trying to split his skull open.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  376. Despite the DOJ pressure to lynch Z, his peers decided he was innocent.

    I know some of you are shocked and outraged.

    The next step is to by-pass our peers:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/07/heckuva-job-nappy-illegal-aliens.html

    The rest of you, the relieved and restored, will be remembering this as the ‘good old days’ in a few.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  377. 339. Good read.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  378. Now, attention must be directed toward the gross criminal misbehavior of various local City of Sanford and State of Florida officials, both elected and appointed, and toward US Department of Justice authorities for exerting improper influence, and toward media organizations that manipulated or manufactured false evidence, and toward attorneys, Crump and Parks, who organized, staged, and directed this attempt to exploit a local tragedy and turn it into a racial explosion.

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  379. #317 “…And despite some close calls (and insults and slurs tossed both ways) nothing amounted from the tension earlier in the day, the Orlando Sentinel said.
    One Zimmerman supporter shouted “go get your welfare checks, go get your crack” toward the Martin camp.”~globalpost

    The ‘Martin camp’ are “thugs?”

    tifosa (f46d96)

  380. MSNBC hardest hit by verdict.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  381. “The ‘Martin camp’ are “thugs?””

    tifosa – The idiot wearing the t-shirt with a picture of George Zimmerman’s face with a rifle target superimposed over it was a nice man, I’m sure.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  382. contrare pierre. I hope GZ to live long, live large.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  383. Nicole G expressed the liberals’ (plural) view:

    Justice was not served. How is justice served when a young boy lost his life over some nonsense. Trayvon is dead, while Zimmerman is free and free to kill another innocent soul.

    That, of course, is the difference that our friends on the left see: they feel that this verdict is simply unjust. The problem is that what is unjust — a disputable decision, and an idea framed in the minds of individuals — and what is actually a crime may be two different things. The law is (or should be) as specific as possible, is passed by our elected representatives, and is not something about which individual opinions really matter. Juries decide whether the evidence presented them falls within or outside the scope of the law, as it is written.

    For Mr Zimmerman to have been convicted would have been for the jury to ignore the actual law. What Nicole G and the wider liberal group want would have been for the mob to drag Mr Zimmerman out and hang him from an oak tree.

    The Dana who went to bed early, then arose to this great news! (af9ec3)

  384. Another aspect of this verdict: the judgement of the local officials, the ones who are supposed to investigate these incidents, gather evidence and decide if sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed, and who decided that no, there was no crime here, at least not one which could be proved in a court of law, has been vindicated.

    The Dana who sees them vindicated (af9ec3)

  385. Dana, I read Nicole’s comment. Exactly what have you seen that leads you to believe “What Nicole G and the wider liberal group want would have been for the mob to drag Mr Zimmerman out and hang him from an oak tree” ?~TheOftenImpressedWithDana Tifosa

    tifosa (f46d96)

  386. The performance of the prosecution was poor, but understandable: they were trying to make a case when there was no case. More honorable individual prosecutors would have told the state, “There’s nothing here, and you’ll need to either drop this or find someone else to prosecute it.”

    The Dana who understands honor (af9ec3)

  387. Tifosa, given that the prosecution really had no case, their complaints about justice not being served can lead to only that conclusion. Martin supporters with t-shirts with images of Mr Zimmerman’s face in the cross-hairs pretty much tell you what they feel.

    The Dana with the answers (af9ec3)

  388. Icy wrote (#345): “Bears watching.”

    That’s really worrisome. Why are the bears watching, and what are they going to do when they get tired of watching and decide to join the action?

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  389. You post a pic of one person wearing such a tshirt???
    Let’s see how the majority of Trayvon supporters respond to the verdict. So far, what I’ve seen, they are going to church, expressing disappointment on social media, starting petitions.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  390. It seems many people confuse the concepts of “justice” and “vengeance”.

    htom (412a17)

  391. The Phrase that struck me was “deserve to die.”
    What does a person have to do to deserve to die?
    Does trying to kill someone make the grade?
    Who was bashing whose head into the sidewalk?

    Patty (8e73de)

  392. The New York Post has a screen shot of a Tweet that was sent by N.Y. Giants wide receiver Victor Cruz. The Tweet reads as follows:

    “Zimmerman doesn’t last a year before the hood catches up to him.”

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  393. Well, Tifosa, I hope that you are right. I want to see them going to church – that’s the best place for everyone — and I want to see them expressing their disappointment peacefully, and I have no problem with them starting petitions; that’s within their rights.

    The Dana with high hopes (af9ec3)

  394. Two points on post-acquittal civil lawsuits in Florida. 1) The stand your ground law does provide immunity. 2) The defendant is entitled to reimbursement for the costs he incurred to defend against the prosecution. Zimmerman can get back, from the county, deposition costs, expert witness fees, the cost of his monitoring …. Not attorney fees according to an older case I found. Somebody says lost wages but I don’t think so on that either.

    nk (875f57)

  395. ==It seems many people confuse the concepts of “justice” and “vengeance”.==

    Yes indeed. That tragic mistake is the central theme in most of the world’s most famous and dramatic operas.

    elissa (30a415)

  396. #398 Did Breitbart snag Vilma’s tweet as well? @JonVilma51
    I get if you’re mad about the verdict. I don’t get going out and looting/rioting 5min from where you live. Be constructive not destructive

    tifosa (f46d96)

  397. I’m sure we’d be seeing all this pale chested thumping and hurrahing had Martin managed to grab the gun and shoot Zimmerman.

    BTW, thanks everyone for not using the “N” word. But is you think it hides your bigotry, it doesn’t.

    JEA (fb1111)

  398. Vengeance is a valid concept in criminal law but we call it other things. Society takes vengeance on a criminal for violating society’s rules. In practice society can seem to act as a hitman for the victim, but not in order to coopt society to the victim’s interests. Instead, to give the victim an incentive to conjoin his interests with society’s. Not to go Gault.

    The criminologist nk (875f57)

  399. Justice is only a word when used by people. Humans are not capable of justice.

    The philosopher nk (875f57)

  400. tifosa, why should anyone be impressed by a Tweet that encourages people to behave like civilized human beings? Of course, I guess among some elements of American society, such sentiments are rare. (BTW, do you how much Vilma weighs?)

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  401. The world would never have heard about this case had Martin managed to grab the gun and shoot Zimmerman.

    elissa (30a415)

  402. BTW, thanks everyone for not using the “N” word. But is you think it hides your bigotry, it doesn’t.

    Comment by JEA (fb1111) — 7/14/2013 @ 7:04 am

    And thank you for not licking my rectum, JEA. But if you think it hides your perverted proclivities, it doesn’t.

    nk (875f57)

  403. To 407: Also, the world would never have heard about this case if Martin had managed to beat Zimmerman to death by pounding his head into the sidewalk.

    DN (09d6b1)

  404. ~O’Mara was free to GZ, wasn’t he?

    tifosa (f46d96)

  405. One small brief line from the article SPQR linked at #339 and recommended by gg at #382 caught my attention in passing as apropos here. The article deals with the irrational fear of black men by whites in general, and the very real fear of black men by black women in particular and for good reason.

    However, the brief line which caught my attention stated:

    We have little power to alter whites’ perceptions of us…

    That’s just not true, I don’t dispute that belief may be prevalent in the black community, but there’s no compelling evidence for it among responsible whites. Black men and women can easily alter the way whites perceive them simply by behaving themselves, both in public and privately. We all know that most blacks are responsible members of our multi-racial society, and Americans of all backgrounds interact with them peacefully and cooperatively everyday. They’re not the problem, they’re the solution.

    They’re not the ones who project anger and violence, the ones people fear, the ones we see on street corners or on TV selling dope, intimidating passersby, stealing cars, robbing stores, mistreating women, rioting and looting, stuffing ballot boxes, behaving like the lawless thugs they are.

    When whites see race hustlers and poverty pimps like Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Reverend Wright, Louis Farrakhan, and the New Black Panthers, twisting the law to extort taxpayer money, or railroading a convenient (White Hispanic) scapegoat, or denouncing white society for the evils of slavery from 100 years ago (in order to pit the races against each other and divide the nation by inflaming racial hatred today), or hear brutally violent lyrics from spectacularly rich and ostentatiously ignorant young black hip hoppers, or see highly paid black professional athletes arrested for exceptionally stupid and violent crimes, or watch while the institutions of representative democracy are corrupted by black politicians to advance an anti-American political agenda, when whites see all that over and over again, they wait and watch in hopeful anticipation that responsible black voices will denounce the crooks, pimps, hustlers, and thieves.

    But, when responsible blacks do speak out white and black leftists in the print and broadcast media, along with elected politicians and Hollywood celebrities and other opinion makers shout them down or call them Uncle Toms to call their legitimacy as authentic blacks into question.

    Thus is the unholy alliance cemented in place, parasitic black hustlers and pimps feed from the public trough while preaching racial hatred and social division as leftist politicians and media whores protect them from exposure, make excuses for outrageous misbehavior, and actually reward them with personal riches, prestigious positions, and high honors in exchange for their ongoing perfidious treachery.

    Contrary to the claim that blacks have little power to alter whites’ perceptions… the larger truth is that ordinary whites have little power to prevent entrenched leftists and their crooked black henchmen from looting the treasury and turning the Republic into a socialist piggy bank.

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  406. Said in the beginning I’ve sat through self defense jury instructions as a defense attorney and as an ADA. In each case it ended up in acquittals.

    Told both of my sons again; don’t get into a street fight because you never know what the other guy has. If it starts to become a blowout for one guy the other guy, if he has a knife or a gun or a blunt object, gets broad legal discretion to use such a weapon to repel the threat. The old trope in criminal law is the loser goes to the ER and the winner goes to jail.In this case, it was way worse for the loser.

    Must say I am at a loss how this was not presented to a grand jury before trial to determine what charges, if any, were appropriate. From What Cracker Jack box did Angela Corey get her law degreee? that press conference was the one more piece of final dreck into the cesspool. Her only employeable skill previous was as the “Mother” balloon in the Roger Waters’ tour with “The Wall”. She was great last summer at Yankee Stadium.

    The head of the NAACP is named “Jealous”?

    Bugg (b32862)

  407. DN-

    Not sure how public defense works in Florida but he did say he was going to submit a bill for payment to the state. Can say in NY I used to submit a bill on line followed by a sworn statement on paper at the conclusion of a case, billing one rate for in court time and another for out of court time per hour, plus receipts for expenses. Would imagine that’s pretty common around the country. But the rate is almost certainly higher for homicide cases like this.

    Bugg (b32862)

  408. Hispanics have an obligation to die, or be maimed, when attacked by blacks.

    Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec)

  409. No trial at all if Zimmerman’s name was Zamora.

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  410. There was no reason for Zimmerman to feel THAT threatened by Trayvon that he would want to kill him. Just to put it out there, if a black man was to kill a Caucasian boy, do you honestly think that black man would be found guilty?

    Yep, Zimmerman didn’t kill Martin because he was threatened by the guy but because he was seconds away from being murdered by the guy.

    As for your hypothetical, if Zimmerman were black and Martin were white — but every other aspect of the two remained exactly the same — do you think all the liberals who currently sympathize with and go boo-hoo for Martin would switch their sentiments and instead get misty-eyed for Zimmerman? I know I wouldn’t.

    The recent Rasmussen poll (and I believe a Gallup Poll prior to that too) that indicates growing numbers of both whites and — most tellingly — blacks now perceive blacks as being more racist than other groups in the US is a socio-cultural transformation that “limousine liberals” or “bleeding-heart liberals” must be unhappy about. Not unhappy that various people still are racist, but unhappy that the racism is increasingly emanating from a segment of the population that is awash in liberalism (ie, people who earn the Liberal Seal of Approval) and has long been designated by the left as America’s “Official Underdog.”

    Mark (c7cc04)

  411. Let’s see how the majority of Trayvon supporters respond to the verdict. So far, what I’ve seen, they are going to church, expressing disappointment on social media, starting petitions.

    Comment by tifosa (f46d96)

    If they think petitioning the Lord through prayer will work with the race-hustling Rev. All Sharpton and Rev. Jesse Jackson leading the way, good luck with that.

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  412. Serial troll JEA’s histrionics and race-baiting is all it is left with. Nice spleen vent, asshat.

    JD (b63a52)

  413. MSNBC hardest hit by verdict.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9)

    “Goddammit!”,cries Hayes… “Oh, snap!”, minces Touré…

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  414. Black men and women can easily alter the way whites perceive them simply by behaving themselves, both in public and privately.

    Beyond “behaving” or not, what unnerves me greatly about black America — or any other similar subset of this nation — is that over 90-plus percent of people in such communities are dyed-in-the-wool liberals. I think that’s an extremely unhealthy and corrosively unbalanced or lopsided situation. And even though I’m of the right, I also would feel leery about a major subset of this society that was over 90-plus percent dyed-in-the-wool conservative.

    I obviously would prefer a majority of people in general throughout America to lean right, but not to a 90-plus percent degree. That’s because I also believe in the value of diversity. But truly meaningful, beyond-skin-deep diversity and not just the superficial kind, not just on how people look.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  415. Imagine if skin colors reversed the public outcry … http://mdjonline.com/view/full_story/23037003/article-Mableton-teens-linked-to-gang-are-accused-in-beating-death?

    Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec)

  416. They are going to petition Eric Holder, Obama and the DoJ for a civil rights show trial. There is no legal basis at all to conclude that this was anything other than a self defense case. But Holder, he of the Marc Rich and FALN pardons and more recent atrocities, is nothing if not a good at following the orders of his Godfathers.

    I have found the “2 sovereigns” concept of defeating double jeopardy to be the most egregious constitutional vioaltion dreamed up by “living Constitution” jurisprudence. It was wrong in the Yankel Rosenbaum/Lemrick Nelson case, it’s wrong here.

    Bugg (b32862)

  417. Zimmerman has a cash bail bond deposit. I imagine his attorney’s fees will be paid from that? Don’t hold me to it. Florida is an unusual state in some aspects.

    nk (875f57)

  418. The DOJ has a written policy for successive prosecutions. Zimmerman does not meet the criteria. If there is political pressure to retry Zimmerman in court, that’s where career federal prosecutors will show their mettle.

    nk (875f57)

  419. *in federal court*

    nk (875f57)

  420. #421 Just coincidence that so many rightwing websites are “on” the mableton case? Comments in Huffpo et al, from rw tweeters, are linking to that case?

    tifosa (f46d96)

  421. Regarding the story to which Rodney King’s Spirit linked: You will be relieved to know that the Atlanta Journal-Constitution has breathlessly reported that the crime is NOT race related. According to the AJC, the 36-year-old white man was killed because he indicated to the four black youths that he was a member of the Crips; turns out the black youths were Bloods.

    Oh well, at least there’s a logical explanation for the man’s death. At any rate, I’m sure it’s relief to his family that, evidently, he isn’t as dead as Trayvon Martin.

    (BTW, the AJC also managed to tie the reaction to the Crips/Bloods story to – you guessed it! – the Bush Administration. In this completely objective story, the reporter pointed out that some conservative bloggers erroneously labeled the attack a “racial” incident. Apparently, one of the bloggers works for a website created by Tucker Carlson, whom the reporter ID’d as a former aide Dick Cheney. Seriously. Yeah, there’s a reason that Limbaugh often refers to the AJC as “the Urinal-Constipation.”)

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  422. 2 different things. A bail bond would require typically 10% of the bail in cash and collateral pledged for the balance. But the 10% is basically taken by the bondholder(usually the local court or a private bail bondsman) at the end.If he put up the full amount as cash bail, that is usually fully refunded at the end of the case. Very likely Zimmerman was required by his attorneys to assign the bail to them at the conclusion of the case in order to retain West and O’Mara. Vauguely recall Zimmerman’s defense fund was specifically raised to bail him out.

    Bugg (b32862)

  423. Nicole G wrote:

    There was no reason for Zimmerman to feel THAT threatened by Trayvon that he would want to kill him. Just to put it out there, if a black man was to kill a Caucasian boy, do you honestly think that black man would be found guilty?

    Mr Zimmerman was getting his butt thoroughly kicked by a man who had him on the ground and trying to bash his pumpkin head into the ground. It could well have happened that Mr Martin would have gotten up and left Mr Zimmerman very alive, though bloodied, after he had pounded on him a bit more, or it is possible that Mr Martin would have proceeded to beat him to death. But we cannot know, now, what such hypothetical outcome would have been the case, and emotions and adrenaline run so high in a fight like that that perhaps even Mr Martin, could we summon his shade from beyond, could not tell us.

    We are simply not in any position to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, what that outcome would have been.

    Mr Zimmerman couldn’t have known, either. He, too, was in the grip of emotion and adrenaline, and simply unable to take cool, calculated, rational weigh-the-odds decisions; he reacted in a fight where he was getting seriously beaten.

    Would a black man who killed a white man in the identical situation have been found guilty? No, because there wouldn’t have even been a trial! The local authorities determined, as best they could, from the evidence at hand, that there was no real case against Mr Zimmerman which could be proved in a court of law, and he was not charged with anything. It was only after the race hustlers got involved that the state superseded the local decisions, and, had the races been reversed, the race hustlers would never have acted.

    The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3)

  424. That, of course, is the difference that our friends on the left see: they feel that this verdict is simply unjust.

    When government is your god, things must be terribly disappointing when it fails to deliver justice and instead delivers law.

    Of course, with this administration, it fails to deliver law either, most of the time.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  425. tifosa-yesterday you posted an example where the Chron had completely misstated a quote from O’Mara which changed it’s message 180 degrees. And (unlike gramps2) I know you are smart enough to see how NBC’s production room condensing/editing of the 911 call which was fed to the public`early in the case dramatically fed and soured perception of Zimmerman. Additionally and conversely, the media almost exclusively used old pictures of Trayvon as a child rather than as the strapping 6-footer he had become by the time he and George met. This, especially, always appeared to me to be purposeful dishonesty and deflection. Overall, do you think the media played a role that was well beyond their supposed role as news gatherers and reporters? If you do think that, does this concern you at all with respect to any ongoing reliance on the media for accuracy and factual reporting on almost any subject?

    elissa (30a415)

  426. A 36-year old white man indicated that he was a member of the Crips? The Urinal’s source is …?

    nk (875f57)

  427. nk, the story quotes the police investigator. Here’s the link:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/police-mableton-fatal-assault-not-racially-motivat/nYpGG/

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  428. As one who lived through the actual Civil Rights period, I find the modern “civil rights movement” terribly depressing.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  429. Illinois takes 10% of the 10% cash deposit for the bond fee — 1% of the pledged amount. The higher end lawyers do not usually do a CBR to the attorney, but it does disqualify the defendant from publicly-paid counsel. Like I said, I don’t know Florida practice.

    nk (875f57)

  430. Yeah, there’s a reason that Limbaugh often refers to the AJC as “the Urinal-Constipation.”)

    To the journalists and MSM in general, wear the following like a badge of honor. You deserve it.

    salon.com, July 13, 2013: If you think journalism is a respectable profession, you’re increasingly in the minority. American public esteem for the news media has declined sharply over the last four years, according to a new poll released Thursday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. Out of 10 occupational groups, journalists ranked near the bottom of the list, with a mere 28 percent of respondents saying journalists contribute “a lot” to society’s well-being.

    Journalists, in fact, took the biggest hit in public perception out of all the professions, dropping 10 percentage points since 2009, the last time the Pew Research Center took the survey.

    The decline in perception toward journalists was prevalent among both Democrats and Republicans…

    (However, that doesn’t make me less uneasy about the very bizarre, very suspicious death a few weeks ago of reporter Michael Hastings. If America ever becomes like a Mexico — and that is not a remote possibility — where members of the press have been assassinated on a regular basis, you’ll see my sentiments doing a back flip.)

    Mark (c7cc04)

  431. Whitey, if so, idiot meeting idiots with net benefit to the gene pool. May God forgive me.

    nk (875f57)

  432. Mableton seems a rather violent little berg, ala that town in Justified re the South Cobb journal, but there appears to have been no provocation,

    narciso (3fec35)

  433. Al Sharpton on MTP was surreal.

    JD (ffbbbb)

  434. Apparently there was little protesting or vandalism overnight. But you can always count on Oakland to break some windows and damage their own city.

    elissa (30a415)

  435. I just watched Melissa Harris-Twolastnames for about a minute. Fuxing hilarious. It’s all about race. The left is my enemy.

    Gus (694db4)

  436. Dana (429) is right that “we cannot know” whether TM would have gotten tired of beating GZ and let him live, or continued beating him until he died, if he hadn’t had a gun, or hadn’t used it. We cannot know, but the probabilities are easy to calculate. TM did not stop beating GZ even when neighbors begged him to, and told him the police were on the way. If begging witnesses and the knowledge that the police were on the way didn’t stop him, what would have stopped him (other than a gunshot)? It’s very probable that he would have kept beating at least until GZ was visibly dead or he actually heard the sirens, whichever came first, maybe even until the police either pulled him off GZ (dead or alive by then) or shot him themselves.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  437. narciso @ 394 provided us with this link to a very thought provoking piece, the crux of which boils down to this:

    Of course the deadly meeting last year between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman had at its core a racial element. Of course its tragic result reminds us that the nation, in ways too many of our leaders refuse to acknowledge, is still riven by race. The story of Martin and Zimmerman is the story of crime and punishment in America, and of racial disparities in capital sentencing, and in marijuana prosecutions, and in countless other things. But it wasn’t Judge Debra Nelson’s job to conduct a seminar on race relations in 2013. It wasn’t her job to help America bridge its racial divide. It was her job to give Zimmerman a fair trial. And she did.

    So the murder trial of George Zimmerman did not allow jurors to deliberate over the fairness of Florida’s outlandishly broad self-defense laws. It did not allow them debate the virtues of the state’s liberal gun laws or its evident tolerance for vigilantes (which we now politely call “neighborhood watch”). It did not permit them to delve into the racial profiling that Zimmerman may have engaged in or into the misconduct and mischief that Martin may have engaged in long before he took that fatal trip to the store for candy. These factors, these elements, part of the more complete picture of this tragedy, were off-limits to the ultimate decision-makers.

    What the verdict says, to the astonishment of tens of millions of us, is that you can go looking for trouble in Florida, with a gun and a great deal of racial bias, and you can find that trouble, and you can act upon that trouble in a way that leaves a young man dead, and none of it guarantees that you will be convicted of a crime. But this curious result says as much about Florida’s judicial and legislative sensibilities as it does about Zimmerman’s conduct that night. This verdict would not have occurred in every state. It might not even have occurred in any other state. But it occurred here, a tragic confluence that leaves a young man’s untimely death unrequited under state law. Don’t like it? Lobby to change Florida’s laws.

    Thoughtful folks ought to read this piece by George Cohen of The Atlantic.

    Gramps2 (9323df)

  438. Thoughtful folks should laugh at Perry.

    JD (98765d)

  439. Now that is a valid viewpoint and a fair comment, Perry.

    nk (875f57)

  440. The mere idea that column is “thoughtful” is laughable.

    JD (98765d)

  441. Skittles Martin’s untimely demise had NOTHING to do with RACE.
    As long as we even DIGNIFY the nonsensical bullshit that applies race as a weapon, we lose.
    Skittles death is uses per usual, by lying sacks of shit who divide our country. Skittles got himself killed, because he attacked an armed man. The comments about CREEPY ASS CRACKER, indicates that Skittles was the racist one.

    Gus (694db4)

  442. It’s an EU outlook, where self-defense is not a defense. On the other hand, sentences over 25 years are unconscionable.

    nk (875f57)

  443. Looks like neither George Cohen nor Gramps2 has a clue as to the actual meaning of ‘vigilante’. If everyone in the neighborhood knew or thought they knew who was breaking into houses there, and the police refused to prosecute (either rightly, for lack of compelling evidence, or wrongly, because they were too busy eating donuts), and the locals got together a mob to shoot or beat up the (alleged) burglars or burn down their home – that would be vigilantism. But that’s not what happened, is it? The Sanford police were perfectly willing to investigate crimes in the neighborhood, and very willing to get help from GZ and others in keeping an eye on things. That’s not vigilantism, that’s good police work and good citizenship.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  444. *per the EU court*

    nk (875f57)

  445. What the verdict says, to the astonishment of tens of millions of us, is that you can go looking for trouble in Florida, with a gun and a great deal of racial bias, and you can find that trouble, and you can act upon that trouble in a way that leaves a young man dead, and none of it guarantees that you will be convicted of a crime. Comment by Gramps2 (9323df) — 7/14/2013 @ 8:38 am

    When did idiocy become thoughtful?

    Birdbath (716828)

  446. Dr Weevil wrote:

    TM did not stop beating GZ even when neighbors begged him to, and told him the police were on the way.

    Really? The prosecution put on exactly one witness who saw the fight, a witness who said he saw one man on top of the other, pounding on him, but while he thought it was Mr Martin on top, he was too far away to be certain. The defense put on o witnesses who said that they saw the fight and were close enough to positively identify which man was on top.

    But now you are telling us that there were neighbors begging Mr Martin to stop and told him that the police were on the way. Just who were these neighbors, and why were they never subpoenaed and put on the stand?

    If such a thing had occurred, the defense would certainly have called them.

    The Dana wondering about the claim (af9ec3)

  447. It’s a sad comment on the state of American education, politics, and (especially) media that “tens of millions of us” are genuinely “astonished” by a totally just and (legally and morally, if not sociologically) inevitable verdict.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  448. To supplement narciso’s link, I would point to this link, which illustrates a major difficulty involving what is and is not permitted to be entered into evidence, and how these restrictions inhibit the search for the truth:

    It turned out this wasn’t Zimmerman’s first run-in with the law. He had previously been accused of domestic violence by a former girlfriend, and he had also previously been arrested for assaulting a police officer. More controversially, in July 2012, an evidence dump related to the investigation of Martin’s death revealed that a younger female cousin of Zimmerman’s had accused him of nearly two decades of sexual molestation and assault. In addition, she had accused members of Zimmerman’s family, including his Peruvian-born mother, of being proudly racist against African Americans, and recalled a number of examples of perceived bigotry.

    The national focus on the case also brought into question, for some, the character and life history of Trayvon Martin. As time passed, websites like The Daily Caller found Martin’s posthumously scrubbed Twitter page, which featured the teen at times tweeting profanities and showing off fake gold teeth. To some, these behaviors, along with the hoodie Martin wore the night he was killed, were an indication that he was something other than an innocent teenage boy who was shot while walking home from the store. To others, the attention paid to Martin’s tattoos, gold teeth and hoodie were symptomatic of the same kind of stereotyping and profiling that led to Zimmerman’s assumption that the teen was “up to no good.”

    In other words, the killing scenario which emerged in this case did not really begin with Zimmerman emerging from his car; there is a history of causation which produces these confrontations and often unfortunate results.

    Not being an attorney, I still imagine that the evidence restrictions imposed by state law and the Constitution, must present a constant challenge for any attorney preparing for a case, or judge arbitrating orchestrating the case.

    Gramps2 (9323df)

  449. CBS NEWS/ May 6, 2013, 4:38 PM.
    Soccer referee’s death shows how dangerous head blows can be.

    Utah soccer referee Ricardo Portillo died Saturday night at a Salt Lake City area hospital, one week after being punched by a player in a recreational soccer league.

    The tragic story has left some seeking answers as to how one punch can cause so much damage.

    elissa (30a415)

  450. Then there were the password protected texts and photographs, that were supressed by the prosecution, while all level of innuendo was allowed against Zimmerman.

    narciso (3fec35)

  451. Thoughtful folks ought to read this piece by George Cohen of The Atlantic.

    And if they’re truly thoughtful, they’ll find themselves smirking at the lack of common sense of George Cohen. However, I’ll give him some slack if he at least lives in a very racially diverse neighborhood (ie, where no less than, say, 40% of residents are non-white, non-Asian, and preferably African-American), perhaps somewhere in the New York City area. I’ll also have to bow to him if he sent his children to schools with a predominantly black student body.

    But I bet dollars to donuts (whatever that means) that Cohen is the epitome of a “limousine liberal.”

    Mark (c7cc04)

  452. Maybe Chellew was overheard telling his friend something about having to go bk and the 4 were justifiably in fear for their lives and then stood their ground; but forwardly so.
    Eric Holder will find someone to explain it to him so charges can be filed on Chellews corpse for inciting the violence.

    I’ve seen articles claiming there are white members of the Crips, but I always figured it was white like Blake Griffin is white, not white like Chellew is white.
    How many white Crip members has LA County processed this decade? … I’m sure they’ve seen the tattoos if they are there?

    SteveG (794291)

  453. At a loss why so many think “stand your ground” was a big deal. The affirmative defense of self defense has been around American jurisprudence forever rather than some new innovation. Both the defense attorneys and the prosecutors said as much last night.Most of the people talking (BABBLING?) about “stand your ground” are not law enforcement nor judges nor attorneys. It’s an easy bullet poin on the way to a facts-free soapbox of ill-informed nonsense.

    Bugg (b32862)

  454. ropelight said:

    One small brief line from the article SPQR linked at #339 and recommended by gg at #382 caught my attention in passing as apropos here. The article deals with the irrational fear of black men by whites in general, and the very real fear of black men by black women in particular and for good reason.

    However, the brief line which caught my attention stated:

    We have little power to alter whites’ perceptions of us…

    That’s just not true….

    Black people could stop murdering people at a rate of 750% as frequently as whites do. That could conceivably alter whites’ irrational perceptions of black people. It’s worth a try, anyway.

    Former Conservative (79bee6)

  455. Mr. Cohen seems to live in a different plane of reality from the one I live in.

    I’m reminded of a conversation long ago where a criminal lawyer (both sides) told me that he’d always thought that “truth” was what he could convince others to believe, and that that was why engineers and scientists were so difficult to deal with in the courtroom — they had a different idea of what “truth” was.

    htom (412a17)

  456. Birdbath = dumbfuxer. Clown.

    Gus (694db4)

  457. Htom – that is about the same definition that Teh One and the MFM use.

    JD (98765d)

  458. The ONLY RACIAL component to the Skittles Martin case, was Skittles using a racial epithet vs Zimmerman.
    To say otherwise is beyond stupid. Liberals are willfully ignorant.

    Gus (694db4)

  459. I followed the link that Gramps2 attributed to narciso, and read the entire article. The concluding paragraph:

    And what comes next, surely, is a wrongful death civil action for money damages brought against Zimmerman by the Martin family. That means another case, and perhaps another trial, with evidentiary rules that are more relaxed than the ones we’ve just seen. And that means that a few years from now, after Martin v. Zimmerman is concluded, we’ll likely know more about what happened that night than we do today. That’s the good news. The bad news is that no matter how many times Zimmerman is hauled into court, we will never know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about what happened that terrible night.

    In other words, once we relax the standard to the preponderance of the evidence — translation: what the jurors believe to be more likely the truth — we can somehow know more about this case. That, to me, is less a statement about finding the truth as to establishing believability, about who is more erudite in presenting a case in which there are no actual, close, direct witnesses.

    The Martin family is suing Mr Zimmerman? Oh, that’s rich — pun intended. Mr Zimmerman is a poor man, and an unemployed man who is very unlikely to become employed any time in the near future. They could win $10 million, and be lucky to collect 10¢. The most they could do is to prevent him from writing a book about the case, something I’m not sure he is particularly well equipped to do anyway.

    The Dana who followed the link (af9ec3)

  460. Since Dana (451) apparently wasn’t paying attention at the time, here’s some of Good’s testimony (from this post on LI) – emphasis added:

    “Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

    . . . . .

    “Yeah, like a Ground-and-Pound on the concrete at this point, so at this point I told him I’m calling 911.”

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  461. To supplement narciso’s link, I would point to this link,

    Now that is text I can deal with, and unlike the piece from The Atlantic, it’s not full of ideological gibberish. But the fact you even bothered to post the nonsense from George Cohen instead of keeping it limited to the information that you followed up with — and certainly if all of it is verifiable — makes me suspect that if Zimmerman were black, you’d lose interest in ostracizing him.

    In my case, if Zimmerman were black and Martin were white — or if they were both black, or if they were both white, or if they were both Latino, or both Asian, or both Jewish, or both Christian, or both Islamic, or both Croatian, or both Chinese or Russian, or both gay, or both straight, or both Democrats, or both Republicans, or one or the other, or visa versa — my gut reactions towards the trial (and the confrontation between the two) wouldn’t change in the least.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  462. Most of the media hhas been pretty bad on this, and the New York Times main story has been just about the best. (it didn’t have any editorial or Op–ed comment)

    It seems like most media outlets don’t want to contradict what many people believe. Even the New York Post has amisleading headline. (TRAY-VESTY)

    Face the Nation had no defense lawyers as guests -and they didn’t say they were asked and declined. The discussion was a tad better.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  463. Zimmerman has a cash bail bond deposit. I imagine his attorney’s fees will be paid from that?

    I think Zimmerman was represented pro bono. Probably any outstanding expenses would be paid from that (and even that’s speculation). I think O’Mara and team considered this part of their ethical ideal of certain pro-bono work which, with the support of the community, they were financially able to do.

    Also, let’s face it: getting future clients at high rates won’t be a problem for them from here on out.

    Former Conservative (79bee6)

  464. tifosa and Gramps2 – I’m sort of with Thomas Sowell on this. I’m old enough to remember when most race hate was promoted by Southern Democrats. Now it’s promoted by bicoastal liberals and blacks.

    Winning!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  465. Interesting viewpoint from a commenter on Eric Zorn’s Chicago Tribune article following the verdict:

    I don’t think older African American leaders recognize or understand this culture any more than their white counterparts do.

    elissa (30a415)

  466. Comment by Gus (694db4) — 7/14/2013 @ 9:06 am

    Explain, Gus, because clowns are scary.

    Birdbath (716828)

  467. “Jermaine Spradley is the Multicultural Editor at the Huffington Post. He previously served as the Associate Editor for Blogs for the Huffington Post’s Black Voices and Latino Voices verticals where helped to manage their expansive roster of bloggers with a focus on diversifying the conversations happening on their page.

    Jermaine also helped to build and expand the blog singleblackmale.org leading to features in Black Enterprise and Essence magazines and a spot on Ebony Magazine’s Power 100 list for 2011.

    Prior to his work at the Huffington Post, Jermaine spent six years as an analyst working in various divisions of Citigroup’s Global Corporate Investment Bank.

    A Brooklyn, New York resident..”

    Perhaps Mr. Spradley could get off his soapbox and get in his car and drive over to East New York and Brownsville, Brooklyn, to look at the carnage each week of black-on-black crime.NYPD even posts crims stats- http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/crime_prevention/crime_statistics.shtml.

    And it’s been that way forever. While Williamsburgh may bet getting a hipster facelift, nobody is gentrifying those precincts. Perhaps graden variety intraracial murder isn’t diverse enough for a multi culti fellow like him. I’m sure he’s also among those who get irate about NPYD stopping anyone.

    Bugg (b32862)

  468. Witness Good: “Yeah, like a Ground-and-Pound on the concrete at this point, so”

    “Yeah” sounds like it was a leading question that the prosection didn’t object to – because they had a version of events in which Martin was not winning the fight, although there’s no way to make that consistent with the evidence.

    They were on the grass at that point. Had they been on concrete for any lenghth of time, Zimmerman would have been much more badly hurt, and if he never was on the grass his back wouldn’t have been wet and covered with grass. And Trayvon Martin wouldn’t have been found lying on the grass.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  469. Why don’t you libtard idiots go with the facts??
    Because the facts AS USUAL, do not support the lies that LIBTARDS make up.

    O’M, has a motion for public funds to be used to pay for the DEFENSE TEAM.

    Oh, and John Good’s testimony? He said he saw A MAN, not a wee wee black boy, on top of Zimmerman, throwing fists at Zimmerman’s head.

    Gus (694db4)

  470. It started out pro-bono – when O’Mara found out about the legal defense fund, he said he would charge – but at his lower rate.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  471. 474. On the grass. He got led into saying it was concrete.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  472. Roger Simon makes the point that the big loser here (beside the Martin family who lost their son) the big loser is Obama. Obama put himself on the bully pulpit and lost.
    The point is made that Obama did this as a law professor…. and I will go further and remind us all that Obama is the smartest Constitutional scholar ever! I know because I heard it on MSNBC.

    So smartest Constitutional law scholar inserts himself into the Gates fiasco, loses at first but then cobbles together a tie.

    Then Obama drops his improper influence into the Zimmerman case declaring his allegiance to “what could have been his son if only he had spent more time in Orlando and known Ms Fulton” or something.

    That is not enough, so Obama personally destroys dozens of sexual harassment or outright sexual assault cases underway in the military by issuing rash statements that were found to be undue command influence that tainted the proceedings.

    Obama is a legal dunce of the highest (or lowest) order.
    No need to see his grades. who knows, they are probably great. still, a dunce is a dunce

    SteveG (794291)

  473. Sammy, the only injuries that SKITTLES had, were a gunshot wound and a sore fist.

    Please explain that LIBTARDS??

    Gus (694db4)

  474. Steve G. Barack Obama has NEVER BEEN a LAW PROFESSOR. In fact neither Obama nor his ugly wife have had a law license in years.

    Gus (694db4)

  475. Bugg, Corey also fired the IT guy, as soon as the jury went out, who blew the whistle on her office withholding exculpatory evidence.

    Patricia (be0117)

  476. Dr Weevil: so you are adding the testimony of a man who was not close enough to see whether Mr Martin was actually hitting Mr Zimmerman:

    O’Mara: You’re’ not going to tell the jury here today that you saw fists hit flesh or face if you didn’t actually see it, right?

    Good: I wouldn’t tell them that anyway, because i didn’t actually see it.

    From the transcript, it appeared to me that Mr Good never left his doorway, but yelled from his door. It does not say that specifically, but he does state that he was too far away to either see or hear blows actually hitting Mr Zimmerman.

    The Dana who followed the link (af9ec3)

  477. Elissa, no. But I’d be open to read your case for such.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  478. Bugg – Get with the program. Black on black crime is a taboo subject of discussion for our intellectual superiors. It is racist by definition.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  479. Unfortuantely The One is also a legal dunce who can force Zimmerman to again stand trial for federal civil right violations. And after one unjustified show trial, what’s one more to make his mob happy, double jeopardy be damned.

    Bugg (b32862)

  480. Patricia (480):
    I think I read on LI that MO’M said that in 30 years as a lawyer he’d never once filed a complaint about the other side illegally withholding evidence, but that he had to do so six times in this one case. Wow!

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  481. On top of Zimmerman throwing punches. Zimmerman has obvious evidence of being struck, Skittles has bloody knuckles.

    Sorry Dana Pitzer Putz.

    POINT GAME SET MATCH.

    Gus (694db4)

  482. #431

    tifosa (f46d96)

  483. I wonder what impact the animation video presented by the Defense in their summation had on the jury, because it appeared to me to be based on details for which there was scant evidence.

    Furthermore, I question why Judge Nelson barred its presentation during the regular trial proceedings, yet allowed it in the summation. Her decision on this matter is inconsistent, therefore does not make sense to me.

    To me the video is a speculation of what the truth may have been, but not a presentation of evidentiary truth. In my view, it should not have been allowed.

    And worse, the animation may have been very important to the jury as they tackled the self-defense/stand your ground issue in this case.

    Was the animated depiction true beyond the shadow of doubt? Was there evidence presented by the Defence to support it’s details?

    Gramps2 (9323df)

  484. We have little power to alter whites’ perceptions of us…

    I would also say that this “stereotype” is of recent vintage, since the ’70s when the black family and law and order both began to deteriorate (I would allege on purpose).

    An older friend of mine used to go to Compton on Friday night to go to the jazz clubs and hear Billy Holiday, et al. in the late ’50s, early ’60s All races out having a good time. No crime.

    The man who wrote that article should ask: What happened?

    Patricia (be0117)

  485. “Skittles has bloody knuckles.” No, he didn’t.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  486. Sammy

    I can envision head on sidewalk, back on grass.

    I can also see fight start on all grass and Zimmerman worms his way back and finds his head on the sidewalk. Martin doesn’t have to punch now, just grab Zimmerman’s collar and lift then push down hard.

    Have you ever seen a hockey fight where the guy with the longer arms grabs the jersey at the neck and jerk the opponents head back and forth into his fist and then the wall

    SteveG (794291)

  487. wall = glass

    SteveG (794291)

  488. Gramps, the Prosecution didn’t make it’s case. IMO the case is there. The rules of evidence and standards of proof are different in a civil case.
    #Forward

    tifosa (f46d96)

  489. I don’t think older African American leaders recognize or understand this culture any more than their white counterparts do.

    That’s interesting because I was listening in on a conversation involving an older woman (who is black and in her 80s) a few months ago, in which she was reminiscing about what her neighborhood was like when she was growing up. She said the older women in the community at that time acted like unofficial guardians, and if they saw kids misbehaving in the street, they’d step outside and scold the kids. She said (to paraphrase) if such residents attempted to do that today, they’d likely either be deluged with a lot of “F” bombs or even shot at.

    She also said she was glad she had grown up when she did, in the distant past and not today, and noted how (to paraphrase) increasingly self-indulgent, narcissistic and undisciplined youth are in 2013.

    The sad kicker is that I had previously spoken personally with this same woman, and although I had already detected a willingness by her to acknowledge hard truths, I also discovered she regrettably was emotionally and attitudinally tied to liberalism, to the Democrat Party. So even the one person who I originally suspected (and hoped) might be that tiny fraction of black America (of less than 10%) not in the dyed-in-the-wool-liberal camp in actuality wasn’t.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  490. as they tackled the self-defense/stand your ground issue in this case.

    There was no SYG defense, idiot. You keep claiming it, but it did not exist.

    JD (c55a4f)

  491. My point, which Dana insists on misunderstanding, is that we have sworn evidence that TM knew that neighbors wanted him to stop and knew that they were calling the police, but he kept on beating GZ. That suggests to me that he intended to keep on beating GZ until he was dead or someone physically stopped him, though it apparently didn’t occur to him that that someone would be GZ, with a gun. I imagine he would have jumped up and run away when he actually heard the sirens and saw the flashing lights of the arriving police – if he’d lived that long.

    Good saying that he couldn’t actually tell for sure whether physical blows were landing is just a sign of his honesty. He could see that either (a) two skilled actors were doing a very realistic depiction of a savage beating for a movie, or (b) it was an actual savage beating. Of course, he knew (as we know) that no one would have been filming a movie in that place, at that time, in that weather, so he could logically conclude (as we must conclude) that ‘b’ was the answer. But he couldn’t honestly say that he actually saw ‘b’ happening, so he didn’t.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  492. Sammy – Your #473 makes no sense.

    Why can’t the head be on concrete and the rest of the body be on grass? What does that have to do with the position of Martin’s body?

    Does taking a break between punches to pound a head into concrete or grass define location?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  493. First of all, people need to look at the action before the reaction. Black males everywhere are being profiled everyday whether their in your community or mine. There is evil in every race not just black. Its NEVER okay to take the law in your own hands. If GZ would have WAITED FOR THE COPS AND NOT PURSUED TM, this case wouldn’t be but he did and it is. TM was minding his own business and GZ felt he needed a reason to check the boy out ONLY because there were pervious break-ins. since when is it a crime to walk in the rain or be out late walking from the store? He called the police to report suspicious behavior, shouldn’t that been enough? NO he needed to pursue him….. after being told not to follow (action). He approached TM (reaction). Like anyone being follow your going to feel indifferent and your going to be ready for what ever comes your way. TM had the right to stand his ground. Bottom line is there is no such thing as a misunderstanding when it comes to murder!!! GZ opened up the door for confrontation when he began to pursue him and thats a fact. So in other words GZ was irresponsible and unfortunately it cost TM his life. Trust and believe race played a huge role in the verdict. Racism will forever exist and black people will forever be inferior according to white people. If white people experienced the hate that black people are up against these comments would be alot different and they would be more focused on the point leading up to the murder and not what they pick and choose to hear. Lastly, weed it not a valid argument to suggest the aggressive behavior came from it…. Weed is not an upper. People who smoke weed relax not start fights. THC levels in TM was so low that he couldn’t have smoked anything the day of the his death.

    Lena (464705)

  494. TIFOSA, Like most LIBTARDS you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Show that you have some balls and apologize idiot.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/autopsy-reveals-travon-martin-had-bloody-knuckles-when-he-died/

    Gus (694db4)

  495. If true beyond a reasonable doubt was the evidentiary standard, as Perry suggests, the prosecution’s case would have consisted of … Nothing.

    JD (c55a4f)

  496. tifosa – What case is there IYO? What charges?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  497. “Black people could stop murdering people at a rate of 750% as frequently as whites do.”

    But of course that’s not acknowledged, because can you imagine a more invidious statement about blacks?

    As long as people don’t acknowledge it, it will remain true.

    The disparity in profiling goes the other way, as Mayor Bloomberg tried to say the other day, and people acted like he said something wrong. . 90% of the murders were by blacks, but only 87% of the police stops were of blacks. Slightly tilted the other way..

    That article claimed fear of black males was irrational for whites, because white people don’t actually see blacks too much. At least black street criminals, I guess.

    But black women saw a lot of black males so for them it was rational. I would think for other black males too.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  498. P.S.
    Why is it important that TM knew that the neighbors wanted him to stop beating GZ? Because in some circumstances some neighbors might have wanted him to continue. If GZ had been a ‘chickenhawk’ on the prowl for teenage boys, as TM apparently suspected, if I’ve understood RJ’s testimony correctly, and if the neighbors knew they had a pedophile in their midst but couldn’t get the police do anything about it, because looking at boys is not a crime, I can imagine some neighbors (including TM’s back home?) egging on a savage homophobic beating and refusing to call the police.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  499. Cohen’s Atlantic piece is ridiculous with gross misstatements of the law – the applicable self-defense law in centuries old common law.

    SPQR (c0f8e5)

  500. Thank you for the copypasta, Lena.

    JD (c55a4f)

  501. Hey TIFOSATARD, how about this link??

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/16/autopsy-results-reportedly-indicate-trayvon-martin-suffered-injuries-to/

    I’m ready to debate Skittles knuckle injuries, when you are!!! K?? What’s that matter LIBTARD?? Did you run away??

    Gus (694db4)

  502. Gus
    My writing style has never been very organized.
    I know Obama is not a law professor and I doubt he was much of a law scholar (although any MSNBC all star line up would disagree)
    Obama is a world class lecturer married to a world class scold.
    I say “is” not “was” because he travels around the country lecturing us. Haranguing us. Is harangue racist yet? Hard to keep up what with all the dog whistles blowing at the same time

    SteveG (794291)

  503. Lena, your “facts” aren’t. You are making up stuff.

    SPQR (c0f8e5)

  504. Lena – You are right that you should never take the law into your own hands. Was it right for TM to assault creepy ass cracker GZ for walking around his own neighborhood just because TM felt paranoid?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  505. Sorry, Gus, but the point wasn’t whether it was Mr Martin striking Mr Zimmerman, but Dr Weevil’s claim that there were people telling Mr Martin to stop and get off Mr Zimmerman. At best, we have one person who shouted that from a distance.

    The Dana who followed the argument (af9ec3)

  506. To add to daleyrock’s point (497):
    If GZ’s head had been on the grass during much of the beating, wouldn’t he have had grass and mud embedded in the wounds on the back of his head? I see a lot of blood in the pictures, but no mud or grass.
    If you wonder how TM could beat his head on concrete for 40 seconds without doing more damage, maybe GZ wasn’t the only one there whose MMA training hadn’t gone beyond a 1.5 on the scale of 1-10. Maybe TM was also an MMA wannabe who couldn’t actually do all that much damage, no matter how much he tried?

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  507. Liberals are stupid. They EMOTE. They believe what the WANT TO BELIEVE.
    Take TIFOSA or DANA for example. The testimony in the trail stated that SKITTLES did not have ZIMMERMANS DNA on his body or fists. Liberals, being dumbfux, THINK, that relates to Skittles not having blood on his fist. He DID HAVE BLOOD ON HIS FIST. His own self inflicted injuries from punching Zimmerman. Also, LIBTARDS are COMPLETELY DISHONEST. When the truth is rammed down their throats, they still deny it or they run away.

    Gus (694db4)

  508. Also. We saw pictures of his hands taken on scene, at trial StateEx#23 and StateEx#24.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  509. 494. They don’t see the connection between what’s wrong and the Democratic Party. You have to have a familiarity with academia etc. to know that.

    Maybe there’s a little bit of comprehension about that here in New York.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  510. Typical LIBTARD lie at 514.
    TIFOSA, you are a fucking clown.
    I wasn’t discussing the knuckles being a cause of death you diseased asshole.
    Read the whole autopsy you fucking imbecile.
    http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/10/george-zimmerman-murder-trayvon-martin-autopsy

    Include illustrations so that Dee Dee can understand it too.

    Gus (694db4)

  511. Honestly, Gus: “Liberals are stupid. They EMOTE” followed by that ‘libtard’ vomitfest is seriously hi-la-ri-ous 😀

    tifosa (f46d96)

  512. I’m not going to waste more time doing Dana’s homework for him by looking at the sworn evidence, but “At best” (511) is dishonest. We now have “At least” one who says he specifically told TM to stop beating GZ. There may have been others.

    If I recall correctly, Good said the fight was happening 17 feet from his door. Calling that “at a distance” is also quite misleading, though not technically false: a millimeter is also “a distance”, a very short one.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  513. Oops: at a distance ] from a distance

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  514. TIFOSA, I recognize that you are an LIBTARD asshole, but all you need to do is read the autopsy itself.

    Gus (694db4)

  515. Comment by Gus (694db4) — 7/14/2013 @ 9:25 am

    the only injuries that SKITTLES had, were a gunshot wound and a sore fist.

    Please explain that LIBTARDS??

    They DON’T explain that. The pro-TM version of events is missing facts. And has impossible scenarios. Because it’s missing facts.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  516. “Zimmerman doesn’t last a year before the hood catches up to him.”
    Comment by Whitey Nisson (aa99c0) — 7/14/2013 @ 6:47 am

    Wouldn’t you just love to hear the phone call between Giants Mgmt and Cruz’ agent, and the subsequent call from said agent to Cruz, before that Tweet was taken down.

    No player in the NFL, even premier players, are safe now from their stupid actions.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  517. TIFOSA, this from CBS NEWS. A responder at the crime scene told CBS News that he and others saw wounds on the knuckles of one of Martin’s hands as he lay dead on this lawn. This suggests that Martin had thrown a punch.

    Please continue to lie libtard pussy.
    Skittles is dead because he attacked an armed man. The facts are clear. And your ass has been kicked.

    Gus (694db4)

  518. 517- I have to agree with you on that particular call, tifosa.

    elissa (30a415)

  519. elissa, regarding your #431, the early and continual use of underage photos in a trumped up racial incident complete with a cameo appearance by Al Sharpton and featuring fraudulent reporting by sympathetic news agencies is pratically the trademark of the law firm of Parks and Crump, it’s made them famous as The Scheme Team.

    Crump used the underage photo gimmick to great advantage while going after the State of Florida and Bay County for $7.2 million back in 2006 for the death of a young black criminal who died in a boot-camp detention center. Portraying young black criminals as angelic pre-teen little boys is Crump’s signature M.O.

    He usually calls in PR man Ryan Julison to craft a media strategy, in the TraMar case Reuters went first on 3/7/12 in print, followed by CBS TV the next day on This Morning, and then when the story could stand on manufactured legs it was picked up and pushed hard by Al Sharpton on his MSNBC shows.

    Next, when Sanford police chief Bill Lee declined to arrest George Zimmerman for murder, or to release tapes of GZ’s phone call or the 911 tapes, the pot boiled over.

    Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett, pushed by two local black officials, one on the city council and the other the city manager, persuaded him to invite TraMar’s parents and their legal team to his office where he played the tapes for the assembled party, and subsequently released to sympathetic media. NBC carefully edited them to make sure the public was exposed to the scheme team’s concocted narrative and the howling mob went after GZ’s hide according to plan.

    Anyone in the know could catch the sweet smell of money blowin’ in the wind.

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  520. Furthermore, I question why Judge Nelson barred its presentation during the regular trial proceedings, yet allowed it in the summation. Her decision on this matter is inconsistent, therefore does not make sense to me.</i

    No, that was good. The animation is an argument by the defense of what the evidence shows. It is not itself evidence.

    nk (875f57)

  521. Sammy, TIFOSA seems to think LYING about Skittles injured fist is the best route.

    Gus (694db4)

  522. re: grass or sidewalk. I think they were well off the walkway by the end, and probably left it almost right away. It was easier for GZ to slip sideways than to get up.

    GZ also suceeded in lifting his head above his shoulders, so it was his shoulders that hit the ground all the time.

    But a loss of concentration or a misstep could have been very bad for GZ.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  523. 1/4X1/8″ abrasion on the left fourth finger. That’s bloody knuckles?

    tifosa (f46d96)

  524. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    “Black people could stop murdering people at a rate of 750% as frequently as whites do.”

    But of course that’s not acknowledged, because can you imagine a more invidious statement about blacks?

    As long as people don’t acknowledge it, it will remain true.

    Let’s be honest here: when one thug kills another thug, nobody outside of their families cares, and a lot of people see that as progress rather than a problem. I will be brutally honest here: when one thug kills another, I do not see that as a bad thing at all, but do want the killer caught and off the streets; that gets two thugs gone, not just one. And in our cities today, the great majority of the thugs are young black men, and the majority of their victims are other young black men.

    We see caring when one of the victims turns out to not have been another thug — The Philadelphia Inquirer loves to play up those stories — but a decent fellow, and it’s just a huge story if the victim happens to be a pretty white woman. (You should have seen the coverage in Philly over the murder of pretty white woman Rian Thal, who was just another drug dealer, but she was an upscale drug dealer.)

    The brutally honest Dana (af9ec3)

  525. So to conclude. We have a witness, John Good, who said he saw a “MAN” on top of Zimmerman, throwing punches in a Mixed Martial Arts style. A MAN?? But, but, but Saint Skittles was a wee baby!!! He was a black “Boy” just out for some skittles.
    Fast forward to the police and autopsy conclusions that SAINT SKITTLES had injured knuckles?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?? MAN, throwing PUNCHES and INJURED KNUCKLES. Oh dear, seems to me TIFOSA has difficulty with COMPREHENSION. I wonder if TIFOSA will be in Rachel Jeantel’s senior class this year?

    Gus (694db4)

  526. So blacks killing at a rate 5 times higher per capita than whites indicates?????

    It indicates that black “culture” is dysfunctional.
    Why would blacks murder at a rate 5 times higher than whites???

    Gus (694db4)

  527. Gus, you didn’t like Rachel? No?

    tifosa (f46d96)

  528. We’ve had this discussion before. Black killers of black people get away (75% of the time in Chicago) because of the no-snitch ethic. White witnesses talk to everyone who will listen.

    nk (875f57)

  529. tifosa – How much did Joshua Chellew weigh?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  530. Look at TIFOSA try to spin like a libtard top!!

    You’re making MY CASE Tifosa. Trayvon Martin was the MAN on top of Zimmerman throwing punches in MIXED MARTIAL ARTS manner. And you tried to pretend he didn’t have any injuries to his fist.
    Now you are aware that he did, and like a fucking libtard goof, you continue to pretend Skittles was wronged. Sorry shithead, you lose.

    Gus (694db4)

  531. idk, daleyrocks, it’s being investigated, there have been arrests. See that?

    tifosa (f46d96)

  532. No TIFOSATARD, I love Dee Dee. I just wish she wasn’t a fat illiterate loser.

    Gus (694db4)

  533. O’Mara asked his witness: Was it like this? Defense witness said No.

    How about this? said O’Mara. I think witness said could be.

    I think O’Mara really didn’t have some of the details of that fight right.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  534. It started out pro-bono – when O’Mara found out about the legal defense fund, he said he would charge – but at his lower rate.

    He earned his keep.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  535. Comment by Gramps2 (9323df) — 7/14/2013 @ 8:38 am

    Reasoned thought, only in Perriwinkles twisted little mind.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  536. “Zimmerman doesn’t last a year before the hood catches up to him.”
    Comment by Whitey Nisson (aa99c0) — 7/14/2013 @ 6:47 am

    I’ve had to delete two people on Facebook already for calling for Zimmerman’s murder!

    It’s just insane (by which I mean evil).

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  537. Another really GROOOOOVY trait that LIBTARDS like TIFOSA have, is their pretend love of the protected classes.
    Take Rachel Dee Dee Jeantel. Let’s describe her as honestly as we can.
    Fat.
    Illiterate,
    19 and going into her Senior year in High School
    Racist. Uses terms like CREEPY ASS CRACKER.
    Openly disrespectful in court.

    But tards like TIFOSA overlook her racism, because he feels “sorry” for her. After all, TIFOSA postures himself into a morally superior PRETEND STANCE.

    Gus (694db4)

  538. Gus, please proceed… :)

    tifosa (f46d96)

  539. Comment by Gus (694db4) — 7/14/2013 @ 10:01 am

    Why would blacks murder at a rate 5 times higher than whites???

    BECAUSE BLACKS ON AVERAGE CAN COMMIT MORE LOWER FELONIES BEFORE GOING TO JAIL.

    The real discrimination is by neighborhood and by victim.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  540. So blacks killing at a rate 5 [7.5] times higher per capita than whites indicates?????

    It indicates that black “culture” [emphasis added] is dysfunctional.
    Why would blacks murder at a rate 5 [7.5] times higher than whites???

    That’s one hypothesis. There is another. They are not mutually exclusive.

    We’ve had this discussion before. Black killers of black people get away (75% of the time in Chicago) because of the no-snitch ethic. White witnesses talk to everyone who will listen.

    I’m sure one of the reason for the (varying) no-snitch ethic is the (varying) likelihood of getting killed.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  541. Exactly Sammy, but don’t worry, TIFOSA loves black folks so he is working to fix their societal problems, one race bait at a time.
    Notice that TIFOSA tried to deny injuries to the knuckles of SKITTLES, and showed the cause of death page of the AUTOPSY as his proof. Completely dishonest, and meant to mislead, but that’s all the LIBTARD has. The MAN on top and throwing MMA STYLE punched had….GASP!!!!!! injuries to his knuckles.
    How did that happen. OH YEAH, I know, probably scraped a tree!!!! Hahahahahhahahahahahahahaa.

    Gus (694db4)

  542. 494. They don’t see the connection between what’s wrong and the Democratic Party. You have to have a familiarity with academia etc. to know that.

    Sammy, I hope if there’s one lesson that people are able to get out of all of this — at this moment in time — is just how corrupting and distorting (and how ironically inhumane and non-compassionate) liberal sentiment can be.

    Most humans have bits and pieces of left-leaning biases in the crevices of their brain (eg, a major figurehead of conservatism, Ronald Reagan, started off in life as a liberal/Democrat), and people therefore do need to understand that those biases have to be controlled and how they can be a trigger that easily dislodges one’s common sense (and, oddly enough, even true compassion).

    Mark (c7cc04)

  543. Does taking a break between punches to pound a head into concrete or grass define location?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9)

    No, but it does indicate the young man was seriously jonesin’ for Skittles…

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  544. The animation is an argument by the defense of what the evidence shows. It is not itself evidence.

    Agreed, that shouldn’t have been allowed in. The text messages probably should have been, the ones that spoke to Martin’s bragging about his fighting prowess, since the state made an issue of Zimmerman’s fighting prowess and the difference between their fighting capabilities was relevant.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  545. Gus, tifosa is so stupid its impossible to sort the lies from the idiocy.

    SPQR (768505)

  546. Obama is a world class lecturer married to a world class scold.

    Doesn’t say much for the “world”, does it?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  547. Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8) — 7/14/2013 @ 10:09 am

    That made no sense at all.

    SPQR (768505)

  548. BECAUSE BLACKS ON AVERAGE CAN COMMIT MORE LOWER FELONIES BEFORE GOING TO JAIL.

    The real discrimination is by neighborhood and by victim.

    It isn’t that simple.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  549. tifosa is still arguing something that never made sense. tifosa can’t construct a coherent argument that turns Zimmerman – with clear injuries received in a physical fight – into the “aggressor”.

    SPQR (768505)

  550. Comment by Gus (694db4) — 7/14/2013 @ 9:55 am

    “An armed society is a polite society.” -Heinlein

    TM must not have been much of a reader, and nobody told him about FL’s CCW laws.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  551. World Class Lecturer.

    Hahahahahahahahahhaahahahahaahahahahahaahaha!!

    On what planet??

    Gus (694db4)

  552. I’ve had to delete two people on Facebook already for calling for Zimmerman’s murder!

    And I bet they lean left. I bet they see themselves as compassionate, wonderful, humane, caring people. And that is the irony of ironies.

    BTW, such a response by the left is not unique to the Martin/Zimmerman case. Liberals are notorious for bleeding their hearts in an upside-down way. They’re notorious for emotionally siding with the bad guy (ie, a hardened criminal), while expressing far less or no sympathy for the good guy (ie, the criminal’s victim).

    Mark (c7cc04)

  553. Earth?

    SteveG (794291)

  554. Please refer me to which paragraph in the autopsy indicates “bloody knuckles.”

    tifosa (f46d96)

  555. And I bet they lean left. I bet they see themselves as compassionate, wonderful, humane, caring people. And that is the irony of ironies.

    BTW, such a response by [many on] the left is not unique to the Martin/Zimmerman case. Liberals are notorious for bleeding their hearts in an upside-down way. They’re notorious for emotionally siding with the bad guy (ie, a hardened criminal), while expressing far less or no sympathy for the good guy (ie, the criminal’s victim).

    No arguments here. (Although I do think many people on the right lack important empathy in other circumstances, which I don’t want to get into now.)

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  556. tifosa, you can’t construct any coherent argument. Fire Can’t Melt Knuckles!!!111!!!

    SPQR (768505)

  557. Tifosa. You lost. Get over it. Playing LIBTARD games doesn’t change the facts. Skittles was the MAN on TOP throwing MMA punches. You lost son. I’ve been around LIBTARDS my whole life, I even have an older brother nearly as stupid as you. I know how you mentally ill libtards operate. You try to find some little nuance to cling to. You lost Tifosa. The single autopsy page you linked was the icing!!!! You tried to dishonestly win a debate in which you were getting smoked. It’s ok Tifosa, you’re not beyond redemption. Good luck LibTifosaTard!!!

    Gus (694db4)

  558. Pro Bono….

    O’Mara has previously said that the defense has taken no compensation for their work on this case, that all of the funds that have been available to them has gone to investigative and court expenses.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  559. Most humans have bits and pieces of left-leaning biases in the crevices of their brain

    Well we are social animals. As someone who likes most libertarian principles, I reluctantly have to acknowledge the truth and reality of that.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  560. 563-All the other conservatives on this site (I would hope) groan at this post. Gus, you are a character (as JD would say) beyond parody.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  561. tiffy, any “skinning” of the knuckles is prima facie evidence to a street cop that the subject has been involved in a fight of some form.
    They all do not have to be “skinned”, and in some cases are just swollen.
    Everyone’s skin is different and reacts differently to blunt-force-trauma.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  562. Please refer me to which paragraph in the autopsy indicates “bloody knuckles.”

    It doesn’t. In a rain so strong that it washed the blood away from Trayvon Martin’s chest, Martin’s hands were not bagged, so any blood was washed away. However, he had injuries to his knuckles consistent with landing punches.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  563. Thanks Ian G.
    Would you care to debate something or are you just a fly by?

    Gus (694db4)

  564. If they think petitioning the Lord through prayer will work with the race-hustling Rev. All Sharpton and Rev. Jesse Jackson leading the way, good luck with that.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (dcce25) — 7/14/2013 @ 7:44 am

    I think that prayer and solid belief in your deity of choice to deliver justice (if indeed justice needs to be served) is a rather mature, civil reaction to this case. Your condescension towards these behaviors is noted, Haiku. How would you recommend that they act? Would you actually prefer a more violent reaction so that you may smugly call TM’s supporters out on it?

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  565. 569-With you? No. Your rebuttals of LIBTARDZ?~!! LOLZZZZ!!!! Would grow tiresome to me.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  566. The following should be filed in the Paula-Deen-supported-Obama-in-2008 folder:

    ibtimes.com, March 2012: George Zimmerman, the man who set off a nationwide furor when he shot unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin to death in Florida on Feb. 26, is a registered Democrat and self-identified Hispanic, according to a state document released on Tuesday.

    Zimmerman’s state voter registration document shows that the 28-year-old registered as a Democrat in Seminole County, Fla., in 2002. Zimmerman apparently went on to identify himself as a Hispanic American, according to the document, which was released Tuesday by the Washington Free Beacon.

    It’s very possible (even likely?) that Zimmerman also voted for Trayvon Martin’s symbolic father in 2008.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  567. Interesting post from a perceived liberal.
    Isn’t it liberals who dismiss religion as just a construct used to answer the question “Why?”?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  568. I’ve been seeing this claim about how a black male gets killed extra judicially by law enforcement or security guards every 28 hours so I went and read the article here.
    http://mxgm.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/07_24_Report_all_rev_protected.pdf

    What a piece of crap. There is a great breakdown down a few pages into it.
    The group that put this together seems to think the cops are supposed not fire their weapons unless fired upon.
    Guy waving a pistol around in their general direction? Oh, I know, the cops should go get their beanbag gun and see if that works…. that’s the ticket. Of course if they do shoot the guy with a beanbag and then he starts to shoot… well, the cops provoked the shooting

    Extrajudicial killings my ass, what a crock.

    (there are some legitimately bad shootings listed in there, but most of the rest are bare fact wrapped in fantasy)

    SteveG (794291)

  569. #568 Please refer me to information in the autopsy that would indicate injuries to the knuckles.
    Anything beyond the abrasion I mentioned?

    tifosa (f46d96)

  570. again tifosa
    one too many mimosas
    wet-brained arguments

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  571. 571- See how much “better” he is than we mere prolls?

    We are so tiresome!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  572. tiffy would have us believe TM bruised a knuckle or three while absentmindedly grabbing for his Skittles…

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  573. “abrasions” to the knuckles?

    How did TM get those?
    It must have been the blows that missed GZ’s head, and landed on the wet grass.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  574. heh heh Ian Gee
    self-anointed arbiter
    lives in fever-swamp

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  575. 579- ….more….
    Oh, wait, there wasn’t any evidence of grass/dirt in the abrasions, was there?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  576. The noisy wet grass.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  577. 577-If you are lumping yourself in with Gus, then yes, you would also become tiresome. I actually held you in a much higher esteem than Gus (libTARDZZZZZ LOL JK JK JK), but perhaps that decision was made in haste.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  578. “abrasions” to the knuckles?

    How did TM get those?

    Zimmerman was using his nose and the back of his head to head-butt Martin …. on the knuckles.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  579. Col., he’ll be there until the “swamp management association” finds out and evicts his liberal a$$.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  580. That’s OK, IanG; I don’t think much of you either – along with quite a few others on-site.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  581. In the end, TM’s death was unfortunate, but GZ did not act with malice aforethought, much less murder the young man. Verdict in.

    Let us now turn our attention to the Democrat-governed/controlled American cities where dozens of young black men are shot dead by other young black men on a daily basis.

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  582. well, this thread went south in a hurry this morning…

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  583. Ian G. When do you graduate from clown school?

    Gus (694db4)

  584. One mark, not necessarily from that night:
    1/4×1/8″ small abrasion on the left fourth finger

    tifosa (f46d96)

  585. Another spotlight shines on Angela Corey:
    (from the Washington Times, Jeffrey Scott Shapiro)

    “… Under Florida Bar Rule 3.8, prosecutors in a criminal case are required to “refrain from prosecuting a charge that the prosecutor knows is not supported by probable cause… or make timely disclosure to the defense of all evidence or information known to the prosecutor that tends to negate the guilt of the accused or mitigates the offense…”
    When considering whether or not the State is in compliance with that critical rule, recall the following:
    Last year, when charges were originally filed, legal scholars criticized the State for reportedly withholding material evidence that supported Zimmerman’s self-defense claims. They reportedly withheld photographs of Zimmerman’s injuries when originally submitting an affidavit under oath. Florida’s special prosecutor Angela Corey made it clear that she believed it was her job was “to do justice for Trayvon Martin.”…”

    Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/13/shapiro-zimmerman-jurys-verdict-shines-troubling-l/#ixzz2Z2kmrWjO

    askeptic (2bb434)

  586. Comment by Gus (694db4) — 7/14/2013 @ 10:51 am

    Graduate? He’s the Dean!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  587. Haiku: “For the libs,
    violence is not okay
    but neither is peace.”

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  588. Fire Can’t Melt Knuckles!!!11111eleventy111!!!

    SPQR (768505)

  589. Colonel, the self appointed race police, profile you and I every minute of every day. The whole narrative of the Zimmerman trial, was supposed to indicate that a WHITE MAN killed and UNARMED BLACK CHILD because the WHITE MAN was profiling. ZERO EVIDENCE of that surfaced. But that didn’t stop the RACE POLICE. 2 black Christian REVERENDS and the JUG EARED COMMANDER IN CHIEF threw in their 2 RACIAL CENTS worth, and the media happily fanned the flames. The ONLY EVIDENCE vis a vis RACE, was the term SKITTLES used. CREEPY ASS CRACKER. And that was not DECRIED by the LEFTIST RACE POLICE.

    Gus (694db4)

  590. Here’s another interesting case from the great state of Florida.

    A guy has an outstanding warrant, and goes on the police warrant unit’s Facebook pages to comment on the photo that he was in the hospital, where he contracted MRSA and was treated. The public goaded him as the police replied in the comments to call them at a phone number. Instead, he detailed his alibi, where he was in the hospital for 2 months, he says, and therefore couldn’t have committed this robbery.

    Legal Insurrection is describing this as a dumb criminal, but are we so sure that he wasn’t an incredulous non-criminal, amazed at the state of Florida’s justice system’s stupidity?

    It’s a thought.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  591. Maybe if I WRITE in ALL CAPS I can DISGUISE that I have NO IDEA what I am TALKING ABOUT.
    -Gus

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  592. Can our Chicago panelists inform us how many Black-on-Black crimes there have been since the verdict was announced, how many died, and how much ink this has generated at the Trib or Sun-Times (if any)?
    And, what is Rahm proposing to do about it – other than hire Angela Corey as State’s Atty?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  593. where dozens of young black men are shot dead by other young black men on a daily basis.

    And isn’t it both interesting and sickening that various activists (just about all of them on the left) — who profess to being so concerned about humanity and love to exude compassion at the drop of a hat — either shrug that off or are emotionally docile about that?

    Sort of reminds me of the various people (again, just about all of them of the left) who get so verklempt about society’s treatment of Fido and Kitty but stifle a yawn when it comes to 6-month-old fetuses being stabbed in the neck and flushed down the drain (for example, in clinics in Philly or clinics in Texas, etc).

    Mark (c7cc04)

  594. To Col. Haiku’s point-the One’s beloved hometown, leading the league in mayhem- http://www.suntimes.com/21321808-761/2-dead-10-wounded-in-shootings-since-friday.html

    Bugg (b32862)

  595. Every death is a tragedy, but the hundreds in Chicago are but a statistic!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  596. askeptic wrote:

    “An armed society is a polite society.” -Heinlein

    Robert E Howard, in The Tower of the Elephant:

    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

    The Conan fan Dana (af9ec3)

  597. I’m sure we’d be seeing all this pale chested thumping and hurrahing had Martin managed to grab the gun and shoot Zimmerman.
    BTW, thanks everyone for not using the “N” word. But is you think it hides your bigotry, it doesn’t.
    Comment by JEA (fb1111) — 7/14/2013 @ 7:04 am

    — You hide out in the weeds for weeks and months just to pop up and write this?
    If, while on top of Zimmerman and slamming his head into the concrete “Martin managed to grab the gun and shoot Zimmerman,” then Martin would be the one facing a Murder2 rap. And yeah, he probably would’ve been convicted, too.

    Icy (a077ed)

  598. Ian G. – There is no reason to attempt to disguise that you don’t know what you are talking about. It’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  599. Congratulations Mr. Zimmerman. Justice has prevailed.

    Now sue NBC, sue MSNBC (yes, same parent company), sue CNN (Social Security number), sue Barack Obama (for trying to poison the jury pool. Get a ton of money and some good body guards because the racists on the left will never let you live in peace. They want to be just like the islamists that behead anyone who disagrees with them. Stay vigilant.

    NJRob (436d42)

  600. To be a young black male in Democrat-governed/ controlled cities in America is to be endangered. As others have commented, this fact is totally ignored by the race-hustlers, liberal Democrats and their lapdog media criminal co-conspirators.

    ColonelHaiku (dcce25)

  601. He’ll be safe in San Francisco, a city filled with compassionate multi-culti’s.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  602. @575 — medically, an abrasion is an injury, so you’ve found it. There might have been more discovered, but that evidence was washed away in the rain or ignored. This evidence survived the rain, the lack of bag, the lack of photography, … to suspect there might have been more that didn’t is somewhat reasonable.

    htom (412a17)

  603. Conan sensed their uncertainty and grinned mirthlessly and ferociously. “Who dies first?” he mumbled through smashed and bloody lips.

    — The Phoenix on the Sword

    nk the other REH fan (875f57)

  604. 604-You can see my nose? I suppose I’m not shocked that you stalk and stare at men.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  605. “Look into your hearts.” – In some jurisdictions, that would be considered an improper argument on the part of the prosecution. Maybe not reversible, but improper nonetheless. Jurors, as human beings, will do that in cases without any urging by the lawyers as they apply the facts to the law, but for a prosecutor to argue that is a whole different issue.

    LTJill (908b9c)

  606. Ian G. clearly you don’t have the brains to DEBATE.

    Why is that ass hole?

    Gus (694db4)

  607. I had some sympathy for Ian G’s criticism of Gus’s use of all-caps epithets, until he turned to gay-bashing in comment 610. What a maroon.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  608. Trayvon Martin’s Funeral Director Richard Kurtz initially declared that TraMar’s hands showed no sign of a scuffle, he provided the cover for Benjamin Crump’s manufactured and intentionally misleading narrative, concocted by paid media consultant Ryan Julison and pushed by race hustler Al Sharpton in cahoots with NBC, CBS, MSNBC.

    Kurtz challenged George Zimmerman’s account of an intense physical confrontation:

    In dressing the body we could see no physical signs he (TraMar) had been in a fight or a scuffle. That is something we would have had to cover up had it been there.”

    (Interesting choice of words, don’t ya know?)

    Evidence which would have been significant, if Kurtz had been an honest and impartial observer with no personal agenda and no vested interest in the case.

    But, Kurtz wasn’t impartial, he’s been an activist in minority causes since 1974 as president of the Broward County chapter of the NAACP. Kurtz took the helm at age 23, the youngest president of a major NAACP branch and someone who’d proved he could be counted on, and he delivered with a straight face and with no inconvenient questions from the media.

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  609. In dressing the body we could see no physical signs he (TraMar) had been in a fight or a scuffle. That is something we would have had to cover up had it been there.”

    This mostly seems to show that Zimmerman was the (only?) one being struck; if Zimmerman was striking Martin, there would have been indications of that on Martin’s body.

    htom (412a17)

  610. beforeitsnews.com, July 13, 2013:

    I know exactly what happened that night because I have been paying attention to the liberal media!

    9-year old Trayvon Martin was on his way home from choir practice and delivering hot meals to the elderly. He stopped to hold umbrellas for a Girl Scout Troop which was raising money for quadriplegic AIDS victims in Africa. After he helped the Girl Scouts, he then delivered 10 Golden Retriever puppies which were breach birth.

    That’s when George Zimmerman pulled up in his Hummer with a Confederate flag on the CB antenna, on his way home from a White Hispanic KKK meeting. High on meth and shouting racist slogans, GZ saw TM and opened up with his twin roof-mounted 50 caliber machine guns.

    TM saved all the Girl Scouts and then went back to save the Golden Retriever puppies.

    GZ ran out of ammunition so he unholstered two Desert Eagle .44 magnum pistols and started firing at the puppies and TM.

    That’s when TM was hit in the back by 32 rounds of hollow-point, teflon-coated & explosive ammunition.

    With his last breaths, TM prayed for GZ and forgave him.

    Then GZ called his cop buddies who were at the KKK rally. They cleaned up the site and made the Girl Scouts and Golden Retrievers “disappear” in the Everglades so there would be no witnesses. They washed the blood from GZ’s jowls after he gnawed on TM’s still beating heart.

    It must be true! Justice for Trayvon (and his mother’s merchandising rights)!

    Oh yes, GZ is the current world champion for ALL schools of martial art and had just escaped from a mental institution for the criminally insane. A few years earlier, he was indicted for murder eight times but got off only because his father was a Supreme Court Justice.

    TM was at least the spiritual and possibly the actual son of the Most Awesomest President Ever!

    ^ In the world of the liberal mind, such text won’t necessarily be perceived as being all that sarcastic.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  611. “In dressing the body we could see no
    physical signs he had been in a fight or a
    scuffle. That is something we would have
    had to cover up had it been there.”
    Good. Grief. He’s a funeral director. They put make-up on injuries. There were no injuries.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  612. How much do you think the funeral director weighs, tifosa?

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  613. Shouldn’t those have been twin Desert Eagles in .50AE Magnum?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  614. As I recall from LI, bruises – on the knuckles or anywhere else – take time to appear, and the biological processes that cause bruises to develop cease with death. If TM had survived, would he have had no bruises, light bruises, or heavy bruises on his knuckles? We will never know, because he didn’t survive. Sometimes lack of evidence proves “nothing, neither way” (sorry, feeling a little Shakespearean just now – it will soon pass).

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  615. Just to rub in the point I just made, it is not necessarily true that “There were no injuries” (617). All we know is that there were no visible injuries to TM’s knuckles – or no major ones, since there does seem to have been at least one abrasion – by the time he got to the funeral home.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  616. Nobody wants a race war but we can deal with it.

    Some rather better than others.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  617. 602. Robert E Howard, in The Tower of the Elephant:

    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

    Comment by The Conan fan Dana (af9ec3) — 7/14/2013 @ 11:04 am

    Instead of relying on a fiction writer as an authority why don’t read some of Napoleon Chagnon’s works on the Yanomami and find out what savages were really like?

    I realize that it’s not PC to actually call anyone savages anymore. And Chagnon was vilified for much of his career as anthropology was overtaken by pseudo-scientists who were committed to being advocates for remote tribes like the Yanomami and thus refused to report the reality of their lives and culture. And attacked people like Chagnon who believed that if anthropology had any value it was to the extent it was rigorously honest.

    Chagnon has been largely vindicated. You’ll find the odds of getting your head bashed in had more to do with who had brought more warriors with them to steal what you had that they wanted.

    In that respect street gangs still work the same way.

    Steve57 (996952)

  618. Ian G. – I did not claim I could see your nose. I am glad you are continuing to prove you do not know what you are talking about.

    Proceed.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  619. There were no injuries.
    Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 11:37 am

    Unreal

    JD (e7a90b)

  620. We must not dispute Teh Narrative!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  621. GZ beat himself up.

    JD (e7a90b)

  622. He was a Sadist/Masochist.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  623. daleyrocks (624):
    We all know you meant that it’s “as plain as the nose on Ian G’s face” would be to Ian G, but maybe he can’t see his own nose. Tom Wolfe somewhere mentions “the guys whose nose has been eaten away by weevils” (no relation).

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  624. tifosa et al are demonstrating they will never accept the fact that there are no facts on their side.

    Victor David Hanson has written about what these people want the courts to be here:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/352873/revolutionary-tribunals-victor-davis-hanson

    Revolutionary Tribunals

    Steve57 (996952)

  625. Once they’d eaten his mind, they had to find another meal.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  626. If this were the French Revolution tifosa would be calling for people’s heads simply because who they are. As she’s calling for Zimmerman’s despite the facts.

    There was no case.

    Steve57 (996952)

  627. Are the Yanomami the ones in which older women of the tribe take it upon themselves to give adolescents just blooming into manhood their sexual education? I read about it when adolescent.

    nk the other REH fan (875f57)

  628. Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/14/2013 @ 8:37 am

    We cannot know, but the probabilities are easy to calculate. TM did not stop beating GZ even when neighbors begged him to, and told him the police were on the way.

    I don’t think anybody told him police were on the way.

    If begging witnesses and the knowledge that the police were on the way didn’t stop him, what would have stopped him (other than a gunshot)? It’s very probable that he would have kept beating at least until GZ was visibly dead or he actually heard the sirens, whichever came first, maybe even until the police either pulled him off GZ (dead or alive by then) or shot him themselves.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  629. If GZ had been told police were on the way, he might have tried holding out longer.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  630. Lena @ 498:

    If white people experienced the hate that black people are up against these comments would be alot different and they would be more focused on the point leading up to the murder and not what they pick and choose to hear.

    Well spoken Lena, and so true!

    Gramps2 (9323df)

  631. Also that curare-tipped darts are fatal only to small mammals.

    nk the Amazon fan (875f57)

  632. SF, the 15-17′ witness shouted that he “was calling the police” – as he did.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  633. Comment by tifosa (3c9c21) — 7/13/2013 @ 5:57 pm

    The street names changed? Ever?

    There seems to be an agreement that they had been changed one time, but I don’t have any original source outside of this blog.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  634. 608. @575 — medically, an abrasion is an injury, so you’ve found it. There might have been more discovered, but that evidence was washed away in the rain or ignored. This evidence survived the rain, the lack of bag, the lack of photography, … to suspect there might have been more that didn’t is somewhat reasonable.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/14/2013 @ 11:13 am

    As Dr. Di Maio testified there was probably more to find. Dr. Bao should have cut into TM’s knuckles to see if their was bruising.

    Which led to the comedic exchange between doofus BDLR and Di Maio. BDLR asked the doctor, using that annoying sarcastic “Really?” tone words along the lines of “You don’t cut into the knuckles of living suspects to see if there’s bruising, do you?”

    I suppose BDLR, MD, was trying to convince the jury that Di Maio’s statement was idiotic.

    Di Maio explained as if to a slow student (which BDLR would have been, if he could have gotten into med school) that you don’t need to on a living suspect. If there’s bruising it will show up. Dead people don’t have the blood pressure to cause external signs of bruising. That’s why you have to look for it.

    The ME never looked. It’s one of the ways he botched the autopsy. Even though the ME had Dr. Di Maio’s book on how to do autopsies as a reference.

    In terms of the quality of expert witnesses, the prosecutors brought a half-empty water pistol to an artillery battle.

    Steve57 (996952)

  635. 15-17′ witness? |What does 15-17 mean?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  636. SF (634):
    Please go back and read my comment 465. I think “at this point I told him I’m calling 911″ is exactly the same as telling him the police are on the way, or will be soon enough to make no difference.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  637. Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 11:37 am

    “In dressing the body we could see no
    physical signs he had been in a fight or a
    scuffle. That is something we would have
    had to cover up had it been there.”

    Proves the funeral director is as much of an idiot as you.

    Birdbath (716828)

  638. 1079 I wrote: “I don’t believe you can tell readily from a voice in all cases if a person is 18 or 80.”

    My father could sing well past 80.

    In most cases you could tell if a person is as old as 80, but it shouldn’t be so easy to determine if a person is 17 or 28.

    P.S. Today Representative Steve Israel called both of them kids I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  639. Mr 2500 57 wrote:

    Instead of relying on a fiction writer as an authority why don’t read some of Napoleon Chagnon’s works on the Yanomami and find out what savages were really like?

    I liked the quote, that’s why.

    Robert E Howard was a great writer, and could be endlessly descriptive in very few words; most of his works were short stories.

    I have often wondered if JRR Tolkien might have read Howard, in that, in his first Conan story, The Phoenix on the Sword, the evil mage Thoth-Amon is temporarily powerless because his magic ring had been stolen. In Phoenix, Thoth recovers his ring, and his power. Phoenix was published in 1932, well before either The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings.

    nk likes Robert E Howard as well; what greater compliment could there be?

    The Conan fan Dana (af9ec3)

  640. I realize that it’s not PC to actually call anyone savages anymore.

    I don’t want to get too off-tangent here, but many of the people most emotionally and politically tied to (or teary-eyed about) a violence-prone individual like Trayvon Martin are the same ones who are Nidal-Hasan-ing this society in general. They’re the ones who’d be in the forefront of discounting things like the following—which, in a way, is somewhat connected to the ongoing controversy of immigration legislation. Or hot-button topics where a similar alignment of the left and right — and ensuing patterns of compassion for compassion’s sake — crops up again and again.

    latimes.com, January 2005: It has long been a matter of contention: Was the Aztec and Mayan practice of human sacrifice as widespread and horrifying as the history books say? Or did the Spanish conquerors overstate it to make the Indians look primitive?

    In recent years archeologists have uncovered mounting physical evidence that corroborates the Spanish accounts in substance, if not number. Using high-tech forensic tools, archeologists are proving that pre-Hispanic sacrifices often involved children and a broad array of intentionally brutal killing methods.

    For decades, many researchers believed Spanish accounts from the 16th and 17th centuries were biased to denigrate Indian cultures. Others argued that sacrifices were largely confined to captured warriors. Still others conceded the Aztecs were bloody, but believed the Maya were less so.

    “We now have the physical evidence to corroborate the written and pictorial record,” said archeologist Leonardo Lopez Lujan. “Some ‘pro-Indian’ currents had always denied this had happened. They said the texts must be lying.”

    The Spaniards probably did exaggerate the number of victims to justify their war against idolatry, said David Carrasco, a Harvard Divinity School expert on Mesoamerican religion. But there is less doubt about the nature of the killings. Indian pictorial texts known as “codices,” as well as Spanish accounts of the time, quote Indians as describing multiple forms of brutal human sacrifice.

    Victims had their hearts cut out or were decapitated, shot full of arrows, clawed, sliced, stoned, crushed, skinned, buried alive or tossed from the tops of temples. Children were said to be frequent victims, in part because they were considered pure and unspoiled.

    In 2002, government archeologist Juan Alberto Roman Berrelleza announced the results of forensic testing on the bones of 42 children, mostly boys around age 6, sacrificed at Mexico City’s Templo Mayor, the Aztecs’ main religious site, during a drought. All shared one feature: serious cavities, abscesses or bone infections painful enough to make them cry. “It was considered a good omen if they cried a lot at the time of sacrifice,” which was probably done by slitting their throats, Roman Berrelleza said.

    Researchers have largely discarded the old theory that sacrifice and cannibalism were motivated by a protein shortage in the Aztec diet, although some still believe it may have been a method of population control.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  641. Gramps2 – Does being more focused on the points leading up to the murder include when TM approached GZ menacingly while GZ was just sitting in his car talking on his phone? Why don’t you ever talk about that part of the events? Seems like some profiling going on right there to me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  642. Sammy @635 – GZ already knew from the Dispatcher that police were on the way.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  643. That point to someone who cares about law, is the point where what is legal and reasonable turns to crime.

    That point is where Trayvon attacks. It’s not the point where he is suspected, or a concerned person in the neighborhood calls police and tries to ascertain which way the kid went.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  644. 613-You don’t have to be gay to stalk and stare at men.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  645. So Lena and Gramps2 (698) think that white people don’t even know what it’s like to be hated for their race? What world are they living in? It’s been years, but I still recall the indescribably nasty tone with which a couple of black women I was working with asked me “Are you Jeeewish?” when I suggested eating lunch at McDonald’s instead of some place more expensive. (We were a truckload of college students packing household goods for Mayflower.)

    Or the ugly ugly looks and muttered comments I got for just “walking while white” down a particular block just two blocks from where I was living (144th and Broadway) in Manhattan a few years back – I made sure never to walk down that block again. Examples could easily be multiplied.

    Does it ever occur to black Americans that just as white people don’t know what it’s like to be black, blacks don’t know what it’s like to be white?

    Many of the complaints I’ve heard over the years about the horrors of being a young black male are in fact the horrors of being a young male of any race. You don’t like it that you can’t walk down the street minding your own business, especially after dark, without women and old people looking fearful and nervous, crossing the street to avoid you, speeding up if they’re going the same way and are ahead of you, or slowing down if they’re going the same way and are behind you? Welcome to the club! I’ve been treated that way hundreds of times, though not in years, partly because I have a car and live in a nice neighborhood now, but mostly because I’m now visibly old and fat and slow enough that just about anyone worried about being raped or mugged thinks she or he can easily outrun me.

    Being black probably doesn’t help, but it’s pretty obvious that the first thing you need to get that look is to be male, the second is to be young, the third is to be tall and/or muscular, and being black is either fourth or more likely fifth. I think the way you dress is probably fourth: Jesse Jackson with a fresh shave and haircut wearing a $2,000 suit and carrying a fancy briefcase is going to have that effect a lot less than a white man of the same age and build dressed and groomed like Dawg the Bounty-Hunter.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  646. #643, Birdbath, we know that because TraMar and GZ engaged in a life or death struggle, there should have been easily identifiable evidence of injury to both combatants.

    We find such evidence on GZ even though NBC and CBS tried to cover it up, yet we are prevented from finding it on TraMar because Shiping Bao, the medical examiner for Sanford, Florida, failed to include pictures of TraMar’s hands in his autopsy report.

    Why those photos are missing is a question that he couldn’t answer on the stand directly and one that will continue to dog anyone and everyone who pretends that GZ injuries were caused by clean hands.

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  647. Several decades ago, there were people who wanted to find Carthage innocent, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  648. Ian G. – Is it more enjoyable if you are gay to stalk and stare at men?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  649. 648-Menacingly? Was he holding the bag of skittles like a knife? What evidence do you have to support the adverb ‘menacingly’?

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  650. #653 The jury saw the pics of TM’s body and hands. StateExhibits23&24 were the hands.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  651. Thanks, ropelight. I think citing a funeral director who had gotten the body after all evidence had been collected by law enforcement is not a reliable source.

    Birdbath (716828)

  652. As a heterosexual male I do not find it any more appealing to stalk women as compared with men. I find both acts rather repulsive.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  653. http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-blockbuster-transcript-eyewitness-good-black-guy-in-black-hoodie-on-top-punching-down-mixed-martial-arts-style//#more

    O’Mara: Just to clarify what was actually talked about with Chris Serino, Investigator Serino, during this, we’re going to call it for the moment the Ground-and-Pound conversation. We have a rule called completeness, so what I want to do is put it in context for you, ask you if this is what you said to Chris Serino. OK?

    “Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

    Up to this point he says “I tried to tell them” meaning he didn’t think anybody heard. he was not taking sides as to who was at fault.

    Is that the context in which that happened?

    Good: Yes.

    O’Mara: And then Investigator Serino said, a word that I have, and the transcripts may differ, ground, couldn’t figure it, maybe he said Ground-and-Pound, and then you said:

    “Yeah, like a Ground-and-Pound on the concrete at this point, so at this point I told him I’m calling 911.”

    There are two things wrong with that. It wasn’t concrete, and if he says that it means he couldn’t see, and who says his voice carried?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  654. There was noise from the rain, and it was dark..

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  655. Dr. Weevil – I closed my White Guilt bank account decades ago and idiots like Gramps2, Lena and tifosa just reinforce that it was the right decision.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  656. We all find stalking repulsive, Ian G. So much so that we find your suggestion (610) that daleyrocks was somehow stalking and staring at you repulsive and contemptible.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  657. 649. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2013 @ 12:22 pm

    Sammy @635 – GZ already knew from the Dispatcher that police were on the way.

    To the mailboxes. A different location. And he’d also cancelled that call (although it turned out it wasn’t cancelled) and said he would call the police back and tell them where he is, and he hadn’t called again.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  658. One of the things that’s getting lost is that this was a gated community – or rather was supposed to be a gated community. The entrance wasn’t manned.

    That means that GZ didn’t size up TM as someone who was lost, but rather, a trespasser.

    It also means that the police would be empowered to ask questions as to where he was going and whether he belonged.

    Now actually TM was new there.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  659. No where in that statement do I read an apology for stirring up emotions and racial divisions… SHOCKA!

    Colonel Haiku (dcce25)

  660. shorter tifosa: Fire Can’t Melt Knuckles 11!!!!eleventy111!!!

    SPQR (61a935)

  661. Sammy @664 – GZ did not cancel any call. Where did you get that info? The police said they would call him for location when they arrived – probably would be able to pinpoint it from screaming and sounds of fight if still going on.

    Think it through.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  662. Dana, Chagnon said that because sexually active women were unavailable to them the younger Yanomami men often resorted to homosexual encounters until they were old enough to compete for women. Usually around the age of 20.

    As far as the effectiveness of curare goes it depends on what kind. It seems to be a catch all phrase for South American poisons used on arrows or darts. Different plants produce the poisons, and in some places the tribesmen would get it from the various species of poison dart frogs. Which didn’t produce it themselves (animal poisons are different from animal venoms) but distilled it from the plants they ate.

    The poison dart frog is the most poisonous terrestrial animal on Earth is very effective on large animals. At least human sized animals. But then there aren’t an abundance of large animals in Central and South American rain forests so they don’t all have to be.

    Steve57 (996952)

  663. Most of the details about Travon Martin did that night were invented by the the lawyers.

    Travon Martin was new there, maybe the frist time, and COULD NOT have been heading to a store, unless he was going out to look and see if he could find one.

    Rachel Jeantel claimed he went to “the corner store” “Corner store”

    What corner store???

    I think she was stuck with that description and she said it in the first place because she had no idea. And he probably didn’t buy anything that night.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  664. “Who says that his voice carried?” He testified that he was seventeen feet away. How could it not have travelled that far? Do you think he was whispering, trying not to be heard?

    If TM didn’t hear him, that would mean that he was in such a single-minded blind rage that he was entirely impervious to outside information or discouragement. Which would back up my suggestion that TM would very likely have continued the beating until he knew GZ was dead or until someone (arriving police or, as it turned out, GZ with his gun) physically stopped him. Which was the whole point of what I wrote back in comment 132.

    Something no one has mentioned: it would have been nice if John Good had had the guts to go out there and pull TM off of GZ. Was TM in such an adrenalin-fueled rage that even 2-1 odds didn’t look so good? Was JG worried that TM might turn out to have a gun, or some friends hanging out in the vicinity, so that a 2-1 odds could easily turn into 4-2 the other way, with one of the 2 already hurt and down? Or was he a coward, or someone who didn’t give a damn about his neighbors? Maybe someone should ask him why he didn’t intervene physically.

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  665. Ian G. – Did you find TM’s stalking of GZ repulsive? First approaching his car in a menacing manner and then lying in wait until he could ambush him rather than returning to his father’s home?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  666. At least he didn’t say “useless gun violence”.

    htom (412a17)

  667. To paraphrase a tweet, thankfully George Zimmerman is responsible for fewer deaths than notorious race pimp and tax cheat Reverend Al Sharpton.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  668. Some people say that Travon Martin circled bnack and laid in wait for George Zimmerman.

    Except for maybe at the end, when GZ passed him and then went back, that is unlikely.

    Before that, Tracvon Martin could not know that George Zimmerman would continue walking forward, and therefore could not know he would ambush him if he stayed. George Zimmerman had a car and might get back in his care and drive off in any direction.

    The reason he didn’t go home, therefore could be:

    A) He didn’t know where “home” was. He maybe had only seen the neighborhood one time and in the day.

    B) He had some other secret destination, maybe to buy marijuana, that he didn’t want George Zimmerman to see, and needed to hang around there.

    C) Hestopped to make a cell phone call. Except that TM already showed he could walk and talk on a cellphone at the same time.

    Or is that wrong? Did he indeed stop walking any time he made a cell phone call?

    There is also the possibility he didn’t want GZ to see where he lived, but he had already disappeared from his sight. He didn’t have to stay around until he was spotted again.

    Anyway he ducked down a walkway, saw George Zimmerman pass him by, and then confrfonted George Zimmerman when he walked back the other way.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  669. Gramps2 wrote:

    If white people experienced the hate that black people are up against these comments would be alot different and they would be more focused on the point leading up to the murder and not what they pick and choose to hear.

    Well spoken Lena, and so true!

    And this expresses quite well the way our friends on the left see this issue. It’s not the killing itself, which was apparently justifiable under the circumstances, but the events leading up to the killing. Trouble is, those events were not crimes! At most, one could say, as I have said, that Mr Zimmerman acted unwisely by following Mr Martin, but that isn’t a crime.

    Our friends on the left see that a black man was killed by a white man, so they simply assume that racism must’ve been involved. What evidence there is indicates that Mr Zimmerman probably did not know that Mr Martin was black until after he had already spotted him as a potential punk and burglar, but that doesn’t fit Teh Narrative, does it? Mark was well on the trail of the answer:

    where dozens of young black men are shot dead by other young black men on a daily basis.

    And isn’t it both interesting and sickening that various activists (just about all of them on the left) — who profess to being so concerned about humanity and love to exude compassion at the drop of a hat — either shrug that off or are emotionally docile about that?

    That topic is completely verboten, because it, once again, doesn’t fit Teh Narrative. Not only do liberal theories of racism fail to explain why young black men are so busy preying on other young black men, but it sets up a perfect rationale for why some people just might “profile” young black men more warily than other people. If black males commit murder, and other street crimes, with far greater frequency than do any other demographic groups, additional suspicion of young black males stops being raaaaacism and falls into the category of rational behavior. Jesse Jackson said:

    There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved…. After all we have been through. Just to think we can’t walk down our own streets, how humiliating.

    I suspect that the Rev Jackson might wish that he had been a little bit less honest about his feelings, and kept his mouth shut, but what he admitted to with that statement is racial profiling, and since we cannot reasonably say that he was motivated by racism in that, I would say that he was employing rational basis thinking.

    But, we can’t say that, either, can we? The topic of race in this country is locked away, tightly controlled, and brought out to use solely as a hammer against political opponents — if you oppose any of President Obama’s policies, you must be a raaaaacist! — but never rationally discussed.

    Black leaders don’t want any discussion of the effects of black-on-black crime, because it is seen as somehow reducing White Guilt for the condition of black Americans. White liberals don’t want any discussion of the effects of black-on-black crime, because it opens the question of what the social policies of our friends on the left have done to the black community. Only white conservatives are willing to discuss the issue, and even they don’t much, because they understand that their positions will not be rationally debated with the left, but simply used as a hammer against them.

    We have poured billions and billions of dollars into our public schools in the inner cities, and what do we have to show for it? A black male dropout rate that is prodigious, because of the inner city black cultural message that doing well in school is somehow “acting white.” In our sympathy for the poor, we have poured literally trillions of dollars into welfare programs, and the result has been to decouple sex from responsibility and ejaculation from fatherhood, resulting in a whole generation of young blacks, male and female, growing up not with their fathers and mothers together, but with single mothers and, at best, a succession of boyfriends and sleep-overs.

    Brevity may be a virtue, but it has never been one of mine. There’s plenty more on which I could rant on this topic, but I’l close it off here.

    The politically incorrect Dana (af9ec3)

  670. Statement by the President

    The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.

    JD (f58344)

  671. So much so that we find your suggestion (610) that daleyrocks was somehow stalking and staring at you repulsive and contemptible.

    But merely another example of Alec-Baldwin liberalism (which is an off-shoot of limousine liberalism).

    That reminds me of a person (of the left) who I was speaking with several months ago. Not surprisingly, he happily supports the idea of same-sex marriage and (since I’ve never spoken with him about the Zimmerman trial) probably sympathizes with Trayvon Martin but not Zimmerman. I mentioned to him that Obama apparently was bisexual, and he sort of paused and a look of resentment flashed across his face.

    The conversation dropped and segued after that but I wanted to ask him: “Well, since you’re so tolerant and compassionate, what’s wrong with a president who swings both ways?!!”

    Speaking of which, someone should ask Obama: “If Trayvon Martin could have been your son if you had a son, how come you’ve never sent your two precious daughters to schools (whether in Chicago or now in DC) where most of the student body was made up kids who could be your son if you had a son?”

    Mark (c7cc04)

  672. Is Obama too graceless, or too stupid, to mention that TM’s death was a tragedy for GZ, as well, who would be far better off if his single shot had not been fatal?

    Dr. Weevil (40c627)

  673. Statement by the President

    Oh, brother. You can tell that instead of not mentioning George Zimmerman at all in his message, he’d loved to have instead spouted off something derogatory about the guy and his defense team.

    Mark (c7cc04)

  674. Dr Weevil wrote:

    “Who says that his voice carried?” He testified that he was seventeen feet away. How could it not have travelled that far? Do you think he was whispering, trying not to be heard?

    If TM didn’t hear him, that would mean that he was in such a single-minded blind rage that he was entirely impervious to outside information or discouragement. Which would back up my suggestion that TM would very likely have continued the beating until he knew GZ was dead or until someone (arriving police or, as it turned out, GZ with his gun) physically stopped him. Which was the whole point of what I wrote back in comment 132.

    Single-minded I can accept, because when you are in a fight or playing football or somehow locked in a serious competition, that’s where your focus is. Blind rage is more of an exercise in mind reading, and there really are very few — though certainly not no — fights like that which result in death. It seems more probable to me that Mr Martin would have quit before actually killing Mr Zimmerman, though he’d probably have hurt him more badly.

    The Dana who played (af9ec3)

  675. 636. Lena @ 498:

    If white people experienced the hate that black people are up against these comments would be alot different and they would be more focused on the point leading up to the murder and not what they pick and choose to hear.

    Well spoken Lena, and so true!

    Comment by Gramps2 (9323df) — 7/14/2013 @ 12:02 pm

    What alternate universe do you morons live in? Whites get targeted by blacks precisely because they’re white all the time.

    I suppose you must work in the MFM so that when that happens you can airbrush all references to race out of the stories. You can pretty much tell when it occurs by the articles that only refer to clothing, gender, and height of the assailants.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/299918/censored-race-war-thomas-sowell

    A Censored Race War
    The media ignore racially motivated black-on-white crime.
    By Thomas Sowell

    When two white newspaper reporters for the Virginian-Pilot were driving through Norfolk, and were set upon and beaten by a mob of young blacks — beaten so badly that they had to take a week off from work — that might sound like news that should have been reported, at least by their own newspaper. But it wasn’t.

    The O’Reilly Factor on Fox News Channel was the first major television program to report this incident. Yet this story is not just a Norfolk story, either in what happened or in how the media and the authorities have tried to sweep it under the rug.

    Similar episodes of unprovoked violence by young black gangs against white people chosen at random on beaches, in shopping malls, or in other public places have occurred in Philadelphia, New York, Denver, Chicago, Cleveland, Washington, Los Angeles, and other places across the country. Both the authorities and the media tend to try to sweep these episodes under the rug.

    In Milwaukee, for example, an attack on whites at a public park a few years ago left many of the victims battered to the ground and bloody. But when the police arrived on the scene, it became clear that the authorities wanted to keep this quiet.

    One 22-year-old woman, who had been robbed of her cell phone and debit card, and had blood streaming down her face, said, “About 20 of us stayed to give statements and make sure everyone was accounted for. The police wouldn’t listen to us, they wouldn’t take our names or statements. They told us to leave. It was completely infuriating.”

    The police chief seemed determined to head off any suggestion that this was a racially motivated attack by saying that crime is color-blind. Officials elsewhere have said similar things.

    A wave of such attacks in Chicago were reported, but not the race of the attackers or victims. Media outlets that do not report the race of people committing crimes nevertheless report racial disparities in imprisonment and write heated editorials blaming the criminal-justice system.

    You Lena, and you, Gramps2 are to blame for this with your willful blindness and your refusal to acknowledge facts. You convince people like Trayvon Martin that he could attack the “creepyass cracker” and get away with because you will publicly insist that he does get away with it.

    You have more blood on your hands than George Zimmerman.

    Steve57 (996952)

  676. Dana who played, Zimmerman would have been foolish to count on your “probabilities”.

    SPQR (61a935)

  677. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/14/2013 @ 12:45 pm

    TM’s stalking of GZ repulsive? First approaching his car in a menacing manner and then lying in wait until he could ambush him rather than returning to his father’s home?

    He noticed he was being followed, he approached him, stared at him from about 7:10:15, starting going closer at about 7:10:30, got up to a certain distance, and then suddenly ran at about 7:11:40.

    George Zimmerman then got out of his car and chased him (during which under his breath he referred to either to a cold he has or the cold weather – not punks, the word is not punks) and stopped at about 7:12:02 when the dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that.”

    whther Travon Martin stops running is not clear, but before 7:13:14 George Zimmerman had noticed that Travon Martin had disappeared, but something gave him the idea he might still be around, because he said he didn’t want to give out his address because he doesn’t know where this kid is.

    He arranged for the police to meet him at the mailboxes, as the dispatcher suggested, but cancels the plan at 7:13:22. At 7:13:41, right when the call ends, the dispatcher keyed in: COMPL NOW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056.

    Trav Martin couldn’t have been planning to ambush Georeg Zimmerman until he passed the walkway down which he was hiding or blundering. There hss to be some other reason for sticking around.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  678. Senatus, that’s why the laws concerning self-defense are as they are; a victim does not need to have proof positive that an assailant intends to kill him, but only that he might reasonably fear such. The probabilities favor my statement, but any individual incident can go against the probabilities.

    That said, Mr Zimmerman must have wondered, privately, if he’d have been a lot better off to have taken his chances of surviving the beating and not pulled the gun. Hindsight is 20/20, of course.

    The realistic Dana (af9ec3)

  679. if i had a dog
    he would look just like teh dog
    what 0bama ate

    Colonel Haiku (597983)

  680. Sammy, re: the word wasn’t “punks” as GZ said it was, and has been accepted. It starts with a hard c
    Ignore the writing and listen for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGuctYqCDvo

    tifosa (f46d96)

  681. You never provided your evidence that TM came to the car menacingly. Again… how exactly was he holding the skittles so as to show menace?

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  682. realistic Dana, indeed.

    SPQR (61a935)

  683. I suggest 0bama spend whatever political capital he has left in getting together with Rahm Emanuel, Jean Quan, Michael Nutter, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, etc., etc., and introspectively determine what changes in their own policies need to be made to put a stop to the mindless young black-on-young black murder and crime that is perpetrated each and every day.

    Colonel Haiku (597983)

  684. Dana @677, you’re correct as far as you go. You don’t go far enough.

    Read what Lena wrote, and what Gramps2 applauded:

    If white people experienced the hate that black people are up against these comments would be alot different and they would be more focused on the point leading up to the murder and not what they pick and choose to hear.

    If white people experienced the kind of hate they’ve been indoctrinated to believe black people experience they’d change.

    The whole “white privilege” being pushed by the critical race theorists is that white people won’t change unless they experience that hate. Ergo they must.

    It’s about revenge, not justice. This is why the intolerant leftists see the GZ/TM case not as individuals but as a battle between grievance groups. What white people “pick and choose to hear” was the evidence of individual guilt and innocence. They don’t care about that. The courts send too many blacks to prison so they needed to send Zimmerman to prison. That’s exactly what the state’s goal was.

    This is why I linked to the VDH article “Revolutionary Tribunals.” Grievance group justice is about evening the score. In other words vengeance.

    Steve57 (996952)

  685. 678. He implies he sides with those who think George Zimmerman is guilty, but doesn’t say so.

    2214. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/12/2013 @ 1:47 pm

    If it is a not guilty verdict I suspect Obama may go even further and say while he is not happy with the outcome of the trial, people must respect the American justice system and it has run its course in this matter and should not be a cause for violence and ask people to respect the verdict and appeal for calm, while erecting and setting ablaze a few extraneous strawmen.

    Sammy @ 221: Obama:

    I think this hits it exactly right, except that Obama will wait for a while, and maybe see if he can avoid saying anything, or anything but the most noncomittal thing, and he won’t specifically say the verdict was wrong, but rather say something that does not definitively say the verdict was wrong but rather, seems to imply that – but could be read as not implying that also.

    Actual Obama statement @678

    The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.

    I was wrong about the timing, but right about him not specifically saying the verdict was wrong, and Daleyrocks was right about strawmen (gun violence) and respecting the American justice system (we are anation of laws and the jury has spoken) which I didn’t disagree with.

    Some people are really pushing this so Obama was compelled to issue a statement soon.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  686. I’m profiling gramps2, lena, tye, tifosa, and Dave Surls not because they’re African-Americans, but rather because they’re amoral brain-dead left wingers.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  687. #657, tifosa, I believe we’ve been down this road before, you claimed there were pictures of TraMar’s hands, yet couldn’t provide anything more than a reference to Shiping Bao’s autopsy sketch.

    A sketch isn’t a picture. The last time around you finally had to admit there were no pictures. Has anything changed? Can you provide a link to pictures of TraMar’s hands or are you still pretending that Bao’s sketch is a photograph?

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  688. Incidentally, the same person who testified that Trayvon said “creepy ass cracker” (repeatedly quoted in here) also said that he said “get off get off.”

    tifosa (f46d96)

  689. Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 1:22 pm

    Lie and also, Nyah, nyah, nyah, you lost, nyah, nyah, nyah.

    nk the Amazon fan (875f57)

  690. tifosa, I followed your link, and I could never hear what the “enhanced” tape claims was said.

    The Dana who is hard of hearing (af9ec3)

  691. 691-I like that idea, but I’m sure that you will apply your usual sneeringly condescending comments at any moves that Democrats make to that end.

    Ian G. (b2d693)

  692. Trayvon Martin shouldn’t be “honored,” as our white African-American President infers.
    Let’s face it, he was a no-good, vicious, blood-thirsty, purple stank drunk POS.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  693. New York Times front page story this morning:
    Zimmerman Is Acquitted in Killing of Trayvon Martin

    Perhaps the fairest and most unbiased major media coverage.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  694. Ian G. @689 – Dispatcher call, d’oh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  695. I don’t find a link, but I saw them yesterday on thetube and they were shown to the jury as State Exhibits 23 and 24.
    The right one is shown here: http://gawker.com/this-courtesy-of-msnbc-is-trayvon-martins-dead-body-753370712
    but the exhibits were close-ups.

    tifosa (f46d96)

  696. The “enhancement” on the tape was dubbed-on hiss to make it harder to hear. Lying, liar crapweasels. And also, Crapweasels, you lost!

    nk who can hear like a wolf (875f57)

  697. I think it’s time for either nk or our esteemed host to pen a great article on why federal civil rights charges would fail and should not be bought. :)

    The NAACP has said that they plan to push for such.

    The Dana who isn't an attorney (af9ec3)

  698. Unfortunately for our black youth, Democrat mayors and this administration have neither the courage, nor the intestinal fortitude – let alone introspective nature – required for such a worthwhile exercise.

    Colonel Haiku (597983)

  699. Tifosa, you never answered my question: how much does the funeral director weigh?

    Whitey Nisson (aa99c0)

  700. They would sooner walk on the backs of dead black Americans to the next election, Ian Gee.

    Colonel Haiku (597983)

  701. From the start of the trial, prosecutors faced a difficult task in proving second-degree murder. That charge required Mr. Zimmerman to have evinced a “depraved mind,” brimming with ill will, hatred, spite or evil intent, when he shot Mr. Martin.

    Manslaughter, which under Florida law is typically added as a lesser charge if either side requests it, was a lower bar. Jurors needed to decide only that Mr. Zimmerman put himself in a situation that culminated in Mr. Martin’s death.

    But because of Florida’s laws, prosecutors had to persuade jurors beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. A shortage of evidence in the case made that a high hurdle, legal experts said.

    Even after three weeks of testimony, the fight between Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmerman on that rainy night was a muddle, fodder for reasonable doubt. It remained unclear who had started it, who screamed for help, who threw the first punch and at what point Mr. Zimmerman drew his gun. There were no witnesses to the shooting.

    The state presented a case that was strong on guesswork and emotion but weak on evidence and proof, Mr. O’Mara said.

    “Don’t connect those dots unless they are connected for you, beyond a reasonable doubt, by the state,” he urged the jury.

    In the end, prosecutors were left with Mr. Zimmerman’s version of events.

    The defense also had one piece of irrefutable evidence, photographs of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries — a bloody nose along with lumps and two cuts on his head. It indicated that there had been a fight and that Mr. Zimmerman had been harmed, and the defense showed them to the jury at every opportunity.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  702. The worst part of that account is saying the fight between Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmerman on that rainy night was a muddle.

    It remained unclear who had started it, But odds heavily favored Trayvon Martin starting it. That’s what George Zimmerman said, and it would be strange for George Zimmerman to start it after calling the police, and Trayvon Martin could have much more likely been the one to see, and the nature of the wounds seems to argue that too. The only problem for Trayvon Martin starting it is motive.

    who screamed for help,

    Only because people lied. The Martin family was much more hesitant at identifying the voice. Also it would be loser who screamed for help, and the loser who fired the bullet and GZ fired the bullet.

    who threw the first punch

    GZ didn’t get a blow in and had a broken nose but no more in his face – characteristic of a sucker punch.

    and at what point Mr. Zimmerman drew his gun.

    Is that a question???

    Only at the end, and he couldn’t get his gun fully out.

    There were no witnesses to the shooting.

    But there was audio, and descriptions of what was going on before.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  703. New New York Times story

    Zimmerman’s Acquittal Reverberates, Setting Off Protests and Talk of Race

    George Zimmerman really needed to have a Perry Mason moment in this trial, and he didn’t get it.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  704. I find it troubling that a 17-year-old cannot walk to a corner store for candy without putting his life in danger,” said Kasim Reed, the mayor of Atlanta.

    Still this nonsense of the “corner store” what corner store?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  705. A Civil Rights case would fall apart. Holder and Obama are not going to do it.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  706. It will look terrible for the government if Zimmerman gets a flat-out acquittal after the judge disallowed the prosecution bringing up racial profiling as part an element of the alleged crime, no evidence has been brought forward that Zimmerman is racist, and plenty of evidence has been brought forward that he isn’t.

    If they do this, and they might, expect them to pay a political price for it in the upcoming midterms. This reduces the odds of it.

    What they’ll do, I think, is try to play the mature healer role (cynically), and spin it as respecting the jury, the process, etc., and putting it behind them.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  707. 660-661….
    Sammy must have been there, because…..

    askeptic (2bb434)

  708. It will look terrible if they proceed with a civil rights case after the above, I mean.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  709. One of the tells that corporate security people teach to be on the lookout for is a person (employee, client, or customer) who can’t “let it go” and needs to rehash the same real or perceived slight or indignity over and over, long after it’s time to “let it go”.

    elissa (30a415)

  710. I find it troubling that a 17-year-old cannot walk to a corner store for candy without putting his life in danger,” said Kasim Reed, the mayor of Atlanta.

    Yeah, totally.

    Now what per capita percentages of any random street violence in Atlanta is initiated by people of various ethnicities? How do you lie them apples, mayor?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  711. This is the third time I’m linking the DOS’s successive prosecution policy. Why Zimmerman should not be reprosecuted in federal court has already been written by the DOJ.

    nj whose comments Dana doesn't read (875f57)

  712. Comment by JD (f58344) — 7/14/2013 @ 12:52 pm

    How does “self defense” meld into “gun violence”?
    Would we (the White House) be talking about knife-violence if GZ had pulled a Bowie-knife and plunged it into TM’s heart?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  713. Trayvon Martin shouldn’t be “honored,” as our white African-American President infers.
    Let’s face it, he was a no-good, vicious, blood-thirsty, purple stank drunk POS.

    He made a mistake. He was 17. He was aggressive. These things happen.

    A lot of 17-year olds have gotten in fights and went on to live good lives. Plus there’s also the matter of his parents and their divorce, etc., the peers he grew up with, and other factors. I think you’re being a little overly harsh.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  714. Work around the typso. It was because you uspet me.

    nk (875f57)

  715. Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 1:28 pm

    Half the time, “th(at) same person” couldn’t remember what they said the other half of the time.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  716. I had seen that, but that’s just procedural stuff. I’m asking why such a case would fail, if one was brought.

    The Dana who reads nk's comments (af9ec3)

  717. #696, tifosa, doesn’t it trouble you that Dee Dee testified she heard a thud and the phone went dead before she suddenly recalled hearing someone say “get off, get off” ?

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  718. I don’t think that will stop the DOJ, nk, especially if they think they can get a more diverse jury in federal court.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  719. 696.Incidentally, the same person who testified that Trayvon said “creepy ass cracker” (repeatedly quoted in here) also said that he said “get off get off.”

    Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 1:28 pm

    That same person also said TM called GZ a nigga. That same person also said she changed her testimony because BDLR deposed her while sitting next to TM’s crying mom. That same person also impeached herself in several areas. During her deposition she said she couldn’t recognize the screams as TM. In her testimony she claimed she never said that. When West threatened to read the transcript of her deposition she changed her story again. And contradicted her previous sworn testimony again:

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/6/26/223210/512/crimenews/-Rachel-Jeantel-Court-Antics-and-How-Martin-Profiled-Zimmerman

    At her deposition, she couldn’t identify Trayvon as the person crying out for help. Today, she tried to deny it, but when impeached with the transcript, admitted she told the defense, “It could be, like I said, I don’t know. He has a baby voice some days, you know it’s not.” (Added: This friend of Trayvon Martin says he had a deep voice. ” I remember those nights where I use to wait for him to call. I loved his deep voice.”

    tifosa, I love to see you and your ilk desperately grasping at straws, pretending you’re interested in the evidence when you just wanted to see a morality play unfold according to your preconceived racial narrative.

    So you’re really going to pin your hopes in this witness?

    And if we’re going to believe TM said “get off get off” are you really going to be able to convince anyone besides your cloistered friends that “get off” in TM’s idiom means GZ was actually on top of him? If so you’ve never been around young black men who talk like him where “get off” means “don’t get near me.”

    Steve57 (996952)

  720. If there is a lesson we all should learn from this travesty of a prosecution of George Zimmerman, it is that in our “post-racial” politically correct world of today if your skin color is anything other than black – regardless of your ethnicity, and a black man is on top of you pounding your head against the concrete, you’ll be aggressively prosecuted for murder if you defend yourself!

    Apparently only blacks can kill other blacks with a certain modicum of anonimity and impunity without it catching the attention of the media, or of geriatric have-been welfare pimps making a “racial” issue out of it!

    That George Zimmerman would have been brought to prosecution, after he was cleared of any wrong doing after the incident was thoroughly investigated by the Stanford police, just to quelch the outcries of an eternally aggrieved sector of the population – incited by the “race-baiters”, and for no other reason than playing politics and trying to keep the “natives” around the country from becoming “restless” a la Rodney King, is simply appalling, mendacious, and shameful!

    And then the judge in the proceedings, throwing her weight around at her whim, obstructing and trying to thwart the defense at every turn, so as to ensure that the “sacrificial lamb” would be “sent to slaughter” and convicted, so as to appease the rabble. It was nauseating!

    With the media circus setting on him like a pack of ravenous dogs – convicting him in the court of public opinion before he was even tried in court, civil rights leaders and politicians calling for his head, and the State and the court stacking the cards against him, it is truly a miracle that George Zimmerman was acquitted!

    Next time a black man in a hoodie mugs you to rob you, you better write him a check if you don’t have enough cash on you…lest you be the one arrested, prosecuted, and branded a “racist”!

    Althor (b81d49)

  721. Former Conservative,

    Like a typical liberal, you’re playing the “awww, the poor laddie grew up in difficult circumstances !” card.
    Trayvon was expelled from school—are you aware of that ? His momma didn’t want him to live with her anymore. He was a blood-thirsty violent POS.
    Many, many people have grown up in divorced homes, yet for some reason they don’t resort to the violence that animated Trayvon.

    Perhaps you should stick to your favorite topic from last week about how you believe that circumcision is going to ruin humanity. Or whatever.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  722. It would not necessarily fail. Federal prosecutors are of much higher caliber than Corey’s kettenhunde. Remembering the Ramos and Compean prosecutions, the intentional injury alone would be enough for a civil rights conviction, and the gun would enhance the sentence by a mandatory minimum of ten(?) years. Shipwerecked Crew is probably the closest available expert.

    nk (875f57)

  723. Like a typical liberal, you’re playing the “awww, the poor laddie grew up in difficult circumstances !” card.
    Trayvon was expelled from school—are you aware of that ? His momma didn’t want him to live with her anymore.

    Yeah, none of that is indicative of family dysfunction and parental failings at all.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  724. I suggest 0bama spend whatever political capital he has left in getting together with Rahm Emanuel, Jean Quan, Michael Nutter, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, Kasim Reed, etc., etc., and introspectively determine what changes in their own policies need to be made to put a stop to the mindless young black-on-young black murder and crime that is perpetrated each and every day.

    Colkonel Haiku (597983)

  725. So, the president thinks that Trayvon was the victim of ‘gun violence’?

    Help•ful

    Icy (a077ed)

  726. ==I don’t think that will stop the DOJ, nk,==

    DRJ– I hope you’re wrong about this. My feeling at this time is that that’s just being floated out there to temporarily placate some who are not willing to let this go yet. With dozens of high profile legal minds and respected jurists in this country (from all political stripes) saying this case should never have been brought, I have a hard time believing that even the corrupt Holder DOJ will attempt this.

    elissa (30a415)

  727. Former Conservative,

    We wish you were as obsessed with justice and the laws of society, as you are with cosmology and circumcision.
    Trayvon Martin needed to learn how to control his violent tendencies—that’s all part of maintaining civilization. Every man must learn how to do that.

    Zillions of young men grew up in dysfunctional homes—but they don’t all get expelled from school, and stumble around drunk off their butt on purple stank, looking to fight anyone who looks at them funny.

    I knew this verdict would sting you, Former Conservative. I just didn’t realize how much.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  728. #703, tifosa, thanks for the link, but that’s not an photograph taken at TraMar’s autopsy and which as you noted wasn’t either of the exhibits you claimed were entered into evidence.

    Additionally, the photo looks like it’s been tampered with. The light areas on TraMar’s right hand are inconsistent with his skin color. Blacks, no matter the intensity of their body color usually have darker faces and hands (from exposure to the sun).

    In the photo you linked, the color of the back of TraMar’s hand especially on the knuckles of his index and middle fingers is significantly lighter and appears somewhat distorted, indicating the photograph has been altered.

    ropelight (2ff29d)

  729. ES – Former Conservative can also revert back to discussing how religious people are more dumb than non-religious people and how he has studies done by non-religious people to prove it. Add in Republicans are not as smart as Democrats and that he’s got studies by Democrats to prove it and it just doesn’t get any better than that unless you start discussing the horrors of circumcision, which is really just a cloak for FC’s antisemitism.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  730. daley, oh, so that’s why Former Conservative is so hung up on the evils of circumcision—because it is a tradtional Jewish practice.
    By the way, do you know if he realllly was formerly a “conservative” ? (Probably of the Ron Paul stripe, if he even ever was one.)

    I listen to a lot of talk radio, and every so often, some left winger calls up a show and tries to pull the whole, “Well, I’m a lifelong Republican, but I’m supporting Obama now” baloney.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  731. POLITICO@politico 1h

    #Breaking: The Department of Justice says it will review the Travyon Martin-George Zimmerman case

    tifosa (f46d96)

  732. ES – At first I thought FC was a former Canadian commenter, but he has proved too dumb I believe to be a reincarnation of that individual, although they make many of the same arguments. He does sound like a Nor Laup is my savior type, which would explain the racism and bigotry and his desire to be left alone to do his drugs in peace.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  733. 740.POLITICO@politico 1h

    #Breaking: The Department of Justice says it will review the Travyon Martin-George Zimmerman case

    Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 2:46 pm

    They’ll have their lynching one way or another. At least they want to.

    Steve57 (996952)

  734. It is impossible for the DOJ to surprise me.

    JD (f58344)

  735. It will be pretty hard for them to get that dog to hunt. The FBI investigated the case during and after the time that the local DA refused to prosecute. It was determined by them that race had nothing to do with the case.

    peedoffamerican (c1890a)

  736. There you go, thinking logic has something to do with it.

    htom (412a17)

  737. 748.It will be pretty hard for them to get that dog to hunt. The FBI investigated the case during and after the time that the local DA refused to prosecute. It was determined by them that race had nothing to do with the case.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (c1890a) — 7/14/2013 @ 3:42 pm

    Tell that to the CIA investigators who kept getting investigated over and over as the DoJ kept trying to find an angle they could sink their teeth into.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/12/undermining-faith-in-law-enforcement-and-national-security-the-legacy-of-eric-holder.php

    I wrote here about the sustained persecution of CIA agents who protected America by obtaining information from terrorists in the aftermath of 9/11. The persecution culminated in a decision by Attorney General Holder to reopen cases against some agents that the Justice Department had already deemed unworthy of prosecution.

    I now know the “back story” to Holder’s decision. It renders that decision even more disgraceful than I had thought…

    As JD says @747 there’s nothing the DoJ can do to surprise him. There is nothing so despicable it’s beyond Eric “my people” Holder.

    Steve57 (996952)

  738. The girl that said that Trayvon said “get off get off.” was probably prompted by Crump to remember that time when she almost had Trayvon pinned to her couch.

    Meanwhile in Atlanta it is comparatively pretty tough for a black teen to get shot by a white guy.

    Continuing with Atlanta, lets say a guy who resembles the now deceased Chellew was doing his best client #9 impersonation and while returning his “friend” to the gas station happened to flash something like a twin lightning bolt SS jailhouse issue tattoo at an inopportune moment. Like in front of 4 Bloods. And a 4 on 1 beatdown ensues.
    Would that be a racial crime? I mean not like black on black crime, but racist on racist crime?
    Maybe the Mayor of Atlanta or even Eric Holder can explain that one to me.

    SteveG (794291)

  739. huge march down broadway

    tifosa (f46d96)

  740. tifosa, did you join in with your “FIRE CAN’T MELT KNUCKLES!!!!” sign?

    SPQR (768505)

  741. FC wrote:

    Like a typical liberal, you’re playing the “awww, the poor laddie grew up in difficult circumstances !” card.
    Trayvon was expelled from school—are you aware of that ? His momma didn’t want him to live with her anymore.

    Yeah, none of that is indicative of family dysfunction and parental failings at all.

    At some point, rough circumstances, broken families and bad parents have to give way to personal responsibility. You don’t get to pick your parents and you don’t get to pick your circumstances, but you do get to pick your actions.

    The unsympathetic Dana (af9ec3)

  742. “you believe that circumcision is going to ruin humanity”
    This is what happens when the crazy girlfriend can’t just say she’s got a headache. Nope, she rattles on about how mutilated his junk is to anyone who will listen. At Pilates class, work, the wedding reception, hot hostess at the Sushi bar, his moms 60th birthday party… pretty soon he’ll blame anything

    SteveG (794291)

  743. Huge feelings based march of the ignorant; both literal and willful.

    SteveG (794291)

  744. 692. Comment by tifosa (f46d96) — 7/14/2013 @ 1:22 pm

    Sammy, re: the word wasn’t “punks” as GZ said it was, and has been accepted. It starts with a hard c

    I know. That’s what I said. I listened to it last year.

    It wasn’t “coons” GZ said it was “punks” I don’t know why. Maybe his lawyer at the time suggested it, and he was all tired out from answering questions.

    It sounded to me like “colts” Gang name maybe? I don’t know what that might mean in Sanford, Florida.

    One idea is the word is “cold or colds.” GZ was not able to keep up with TM and either attributed it to a cold or colds he had had, or was complaining under his breath that it was cold outside.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  745. blind lead ignorant
    now onward sharpton soldyahs
    marching as to war

    Colonel Haiku (49a5df)

  746. Zimmerman gets attacked as a “wannebe” cop. I’d like to quote Sir Robert Peel:

    Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

    emphasis added

    SPQR (768505)

  747. The DOJ affirmed its investigation is still open.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b40e8)

  748. “The corrupt DOJ affirmed its investigation is still open.”

    FIFY

    SPQR (768505)

  749. Here is another tale of some vigilantes following someone without police sanction. I hope they are severely chastised.

    Actually, I hope these fine young men never have to buy food or drink for themselves in public again. I’d certainly never let them see a check in my presence.

    SPQR (768505)

  750. 754. At some point, rough circumstances, broken families and bad parents have to give way to personal responsibility. You don’t get to pick your parents and you don’t get to pick your circumstances, but you do get to pick your actions.

    Comment by The unsympathetic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/14/2013 @ 4:16 pm

    That was pretty much the reasoning behind Angela Corey’s decision to charge 12 y.o. Cristian Fernandez with first degree murder as an adult. Apparently in Angela Corey’s Florida a 12 y.o. is sufficiently adult to make a decision to unlawfully kill someone and then make an adult plan to do so.

    But a 17 y.o. is a child who isn’t making an adult decision to confront a creepyass cracker and assault him. He’s just reacting as any tyke would to “every child’s worst nightmare.”

    Steve57 (996952)

  751. 762 — I hope that pair of young heroes gets more recognition from the local community. Not enough to turn their heads around, but enough that their classmates want to emulate their service.

    htom (412a17)

  752. wow “shut down time square”~raised an L in prayer

    tifosa (f46d96)

  753. Steve57 #763 … Fernandez … white hispanic … is there a pattern to Angela Corey’s profiling ?

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  754. Oh – and Sir Robert Peel’s 9th Principle bears repeating …

    “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.”

    Alastor (2e7f9f)

  755. This just in via Instapundit:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/police-mableton-fatal-assault-not-racially-motivat/nYpGG/

    Police: Mableton fatal assault not racially motivated

    You see, the four black dudes didn’t attack the white dude because he was white.

    They attacked the white dude because they thought he was a Crip, and their “Re up gang” is affiliated with the bloods.

    Except of course that doesn’t jibe with what the eyewitness said:

    http://mdjonline.com/view/full_story/23037003/article-Mableton-teens-linked-to-gang-are-accused-in-beating-death

    A 19-year-old female witness, who asked not to be identified, said she was sitting in the car waiting on Chellew to get something from inside the gas station when everything unfolded.

    “He was coming outside of the store talking to himself like he always does and one of them asked him what he was talking about,” she said.

    She isn’t sure what, if anything, Chellew said to the suspects, but for some reason they jumped him and started punching and kicking him. “I don’t know them and have never seen them before,” she said. “They were hanging out by the gas station, getting gas.”

    She didn’t see any weapons used in the beating, but said the entire incident occurred in just under two minutes.

    Read more: The Marietta Daily Journal – Mableton teens linked to gang are accused in beating death

    But of course in a world where Trayvon Martin was not reported to the police (the real police) because the Miami Dade School Police Department wanted to artificially lower crime statistics by falsifying reports this shouldn’t surprise anyone.

    In particular they did not want to report crimes committed by black students, such as Trayvon Martin’s various run-ins with the M-DSPD for criminal mischief, and possession of burglary tools and jewelry, to artificially drive down crime statistics in that demographic. From Sergeant William Tagle’s sworn deposition during an internal investigation prompted by one of M-DSPD Chief Hurley’s complaints:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/135564937/Sergeant-William-Tagle-Internal-Affairs-Investigative-Report

    He’s mentioned, in a statement, of changing the philosophy in our department, particular young African-American boys to avoid arrest. It alarms me that my Hispanic, white, Asian and even my Pakistani friends are at risk in the School District with Chief Hurley’s philosophy.

    Chief Hurley was fired for his dishonesty. Probably reluctantly; I’m sure he got a new job quickly because that’s a valued trait in this post-racial Obamanation.

    Steve57 (996952)

  756. Is this the anti-OJ trial? Are blacks saying the same thing as whites did after that verdict?

    Rioting aside.

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  757. Im white first off. Sad I even have to say that. Anyway, I have a couple tattoos and plan on getting more soon. I sometimes get high because smoking pot is not a bad thing. It’s no worse than drinking and it is unfair how it has been demonized by people in the early 1900s leading to its illegality federally and by most state governments as well although that is quickly changing because people are waking up to the truth. I have never been in trouble with the law though. With all that said, why so travon Martinez viewed as a guy who deserved to die supposedly? It is disgraceful how many white people in particular actually were HAPPY about the verdict. It just goes to show racism is well alive in this country still and I am sad to see that people have such double standards. If Zimmerman were not a white Hispanic and were black and trayvon were white Hispanic, we would see a guilty verdict. Very disappointing verdict. Zimmerman deserved prison for his stupidity.

    Michael b (94e638)

  758. concern troll is concerned…

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  759. Michael b – Smoking weed has made you stupid. The trial was not about whether Trayvon deserved to die.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  760. 770. Very disappointing verdict. Zimmerman deserved prison for his stupidity.

    Comment by Michael b (94e638) — 7/14/2013 @ 10:09 pm

    Surprisingly, the law and the facts aren’t on the side of the pothead.

    Steve57 (996952)

  761. But is is the white guy(s) with propensity for violence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    .
    .
    .

    Really hard not to stereotype when you see this behavior ALL THE TIME in one way or form. From how blacks treat other blacks to how they react “things they don’t like.”

    I grew up in a black inner city and am about 95% sure TM went after GZ because he looked vulnerable and was “angry” at being followed. Not that I have proof and neither does anyone else.

    What strikes me is the willful ignorance (given the amount of violent black crime by kids in this age bracket) TM supporters spout off. In essence, they are upset 1) TM picked the wrong person, and 2) That GZ had some obligation to die or be maimed but did fulfill his obligation.

    Sad all around but it really sheds light on the poor level of development from a political and social perspective of many, especially in the black community. And it starts with the President who has a poor temperament for dealing with these issues.

    Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec)


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