Patterico's Pontifications

6/28/2013

Zimmerman Prosecution Witness (?!): It Sure Looked to Me Like Trayvon Martin Was Beating Zimmerman

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:25 pm

The witness describes a darker-skinned person on top of a lighter skinned person, straddling him and making movements with his arms going downward.

He also said it looked like the darker-skinned guy was raining blows down on the lighter-skinned person MMA-style, and believes that the lighter-skinned person on the bottom was calling for help. But he was not 100% certain about this.

Sounds to me like the prosecution knew this guy was going to be called and did their best to put a positive spin on it, as best as they could. Problem is, his testimony is devastating to the prosecution any way you spin it.

UPDATE: Comments are closed. The thread is getting too big. New thread here.

2,508 Comments

  1. Not a good end of the week for the prosecution.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 6/28/2013 @ 7:25 pm

  2. Yeah. Despite my pessimism on this general topic (self-defense law), I’m coming around to the view that Zimmerman’s team is doing well.

    The prosecutors seem inept, but worse, have a pathetic case that shouldn’t have been brought. I don’t think it’s clear that Martin was particularly motivated by race, but it certainly seems clear that there’s no way Zimmerman is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Even the jury should see this and Zimmerman should walk on manslaughter too, if the prosecution includes it. Shameful prosecution.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 7:36 pm

  3. Not a good end of the week for the prosecution.

    Who knows, maybe when the defense presents their case things will look up for them.

    /s

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 7:46 pm

  4. Former Conservative, that you would even still bring up the red herring of Zimmerman’s “motivation” is beyond belief.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/28/2013 @ 7:48 pm

  5. Patterico, is it ridiculous for me to think that the prosecutor is approaching the point of deliberately throwing the case?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/28/2013 @ 7:48 pm

  6. Patterico, is it ridiculous for me to think that the prosecutor is approaching the point of deliberately throwing the case?

    I wondered that.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 7:56 pm

  7. Let’s see now, you’re the prosecutor and so far the evidence indicates the Hispanic guy with the busted nose was flat on his back screaming for help while getting his head bashed in on the concrete, and the young black thug with the bloody knuckles who was high on Sizzurp was sitting on the supine Latino’s chest and raining down blows on his face and head MMA style.

    What to do, what to do?

    Comment by ropelight (172ac9) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:01 pm

  8. #7

    Does this suggest they’ll offer a deal to let Zimmerman plead guilty to manslaughter?

    Comment by Gerald A (b44a50) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:05 pm

  9. Shorter FC – Don’t pay any attention to all that stupid stuff I’ve been saying all week.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:05 pm

  10. i think zimmerman killed him

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:06 pm

  11. So the prosecution is still maintaining that after Zimmerman told the dispatcher where to have the cops meet him, he got off the phone and hunted Martin down and shot him in cold blood?

    No, no, that totally makes sense.

    Comment by Ghost (2d8874) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:08 pm

  12. I’m not a lawyer but it’s my guess the prosecution would make that deal in a NY second if the defense was stupid enough to take it.

    Comment by ropelight (172ac9) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:08 pm

  13. C’mon Daley, cut the kid some slack. At least he’s coming around faster than Surls did.

    Comment by Ghost (2d8874) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:09 pm

  14. Somebody should sue Crump.

    Comment by elissa (d03d59) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:20 pm

  15. Martin family attorneys say case is not about race.

    Shhh. Nobody tell the president, OK?

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/6/28/154919/856/crimenews/Martin-Family-Attorneys-Now-Say-Case-Not-About-Race

    Comment by elissa (d03d59) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:22 pm

  16. ‘Shirley they can’t be serious’

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:27 pm

  17. Florida has pattern jury instructions. Interesting:

    To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

    1. (Victim) is dead.

    2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).

    3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

    Definitions.
    An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

    An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

    1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

    2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

    3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.
    In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:32 pm

  18. Yeah, I don’t see how they get a murder 2 conviction. I wonder what the standards are for manslaughter, but even that, I’m not seeing it.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:36 pm

  19. 7. Let’s see now, you’re the prosecutor and so far the evidence indicates the Hispanic guy with the busted nose was flat on his back screaming for help while getting his head bashed in on the concrete, and the young black thug with the bloody knuckles who was high on Sizzurp was sitting on the supine Latino’s chest and raining down blows on his face and head MMA style.

    What to do, what to do?

    Comment by ropelight (172ac9) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:01 pm

    Get rid of “stand your ground” laws! One of the more asinine elements of the racial politics of this case is that the anti-Zimmerman crowd talks about it as if Florida’s “stand your ground” law had anything to do with it.

    When you’re pinned to the ground and somebody is wailing on you “MMA style” you’re no longer exercising your right not to retreat. You’re exercising your inability to retreat, which makes it classic self-defense.

    I can’t prove it but it seems to me that the state of Florida is trying to throw this case in an attempt to divert attention to “stand your ground” laws as sort of a safety valve.

    With the active collusion of the MFM, natch. My suspicions was reinforced when I read this today.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/28/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE95Q0EE20130628

    Reuters: Eyewitness describes Trayvon Martin’s fatal struggle to Florida jury

    Can you believe that? The eyewitness says he saw TM on top of GZ raining blows on the guy and you’d never know that from the Reuters report. Everything Mr. Good said is exactly in accordance with what GZ told police and what does Reuters tell its readers?

    But Jonathan Good, a former resident at the townhouse complex, told the jury in Seminole County criminal court that he never saw Martin slam Zimmerman’s head into the concrete sidewalk, undermining a key element in Zimmerman’s defense.

    “I did not see that,” Good told the court under questioning by a state prosecutor about the racially charged case that triggered civil rights protests and debates about the treatment of black Americans in the U.S. justice system.

    Good didn’t undermine anything; he testified as to what he saw. He doesn’t have x-ray vision; he couldn’t see through TM’s back to witness what he was doing with GZ’s head, which was the view he had of the situation.

    It seems to me that Florida knows GZ always had a nearly perfect self-defense case. One of the prosecution witnesses, the medical technician who worked for the doctor who examined GZ admitted that from a medical perspective shooting TM may have been the only thing that saved GZ’s life.

    So in a perversion of justice they charged GZ with a crime they can’t prove in order to make it appear that Florida law allows racists to go free after killing black kids. In reality the only murder charge that appears warranted would be the attempted murder charge against TM had he lived.

    As an aside people have commented that GZ looks like he’s gained 100 pounds since he was granted bail. That’s probably due to overeating due to stress. Still I doubt his attorneys would have advised him to take up weight training and protein supplements in the past few months so he could stroll into a courtroom a rippling mass of muscle while they argued a 17 year old beat the crap out of him.

    I’m sure GZ gets all the donuts he wants when they get together to discuss his case.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:36 pm

  20. Ghost – Surls did not have actual testimony to review. The kid does.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:37 pm

  21. I meant to say you’d never know it was Zimmerman who was getting severely beaten from the Reuters headline. They do get around to at least implying that was what was happening while misleading their readers about what Good actually testified to on the stand.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:41 pm

  22. Commas matter. Florida’s self-defense law interpreted.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:43 pm

  23. He’s also wearing a bullet proof vest under his suit jacket which adds to the heft. But, when you look at Z’s face today compared to photos from the time of the shooting there is no question he is carrying major poundage.

    Comment by elissa (d03d59) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:44 pm

  24. I wonder what the standards are for manslaughter, but even that, I’m not seeing it.

    You don’t have to wonder. I gave you the link to all the criminal instructions.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:45 pm

  25. Ah, thanks.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:46 pm

  26. According to West from an interview a couple of weeks back Zimmerman has put on 100 lbs. since this started.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:46 pm

  27. In another thread, someone mentioned that no injury is required. True, Bassalo v. State.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:50 pm

  28. Looks to me like Jeantel outweighs GZ.

    Comment by ropelight (172ac9) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:51 pm

  29. It’s ridiculous that injury should be required.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:53 pm

  30. i think zimmerman killed him

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:06 pm

    Um, yeah, thus the trial. Question is did he INTEND to kill him?

    I haven’t heard anything that I didn’t already learn in the days/weeks after the charge was brought, which tells me common sense is in seriously short supply in the Fla. DA’s office!

    Comment by Amy Shulkusky (676892) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:53 pm

  31. Injury is not required.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:55 pm

  32. I know, I’m saying the concept is ridiculous.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:57 pm

  33. Why is everything we are told, at best an incomplete understanding;

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323873904578573382649536100.html

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:01 pm

  34. Some prosecutor, judge and jury made it stick at least once, sufficient to make the Florida Supreme Court change its jury instruction.

    BTW, I don’t know how other lawyers do it, but the Illinois Pattern Jury Instructions were my starting point on the law of any case.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:02 pm

  35. 31. Injury is not required.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 8:55 pm

    No, but it definitely helps make the case in certain jurisdictions.

    http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/07/auburn-man-facing-charges-after-killing-bear-in-his-backyard/

    Authorities believed the female bear had cubs. Ahlstrand says he feels bad about that, but he believes he being unfairly labeled.

    “They got me set up now like I’m some kind of murderer. And then the environmental guy told me ‘You should have called me instead of shooting it.’ What was I going to do, say ‘Mister Bear would excuse me please while I go make a phone call?’”

    Police don’t believe the bear was a threat to people.

    Especially in jurisdictions run by people who believe female bears with cubs aren’t threats to people. To avoid charges you have to wait until it chews a leg off.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:03 pm

  36. Surls did not have actual testimony to review.

    That name rings a bell. I believe he was the forumer who sympathized with Martin and excoriated Zimmerman. The clincher was when Surls said he lived in a neighborhood that was so comfy and safe, he never even bothered locking his doors and windows at night.

    People like Surls drive me nuts. I can tolerate the willful naivete of such folks if they at least live in a borderline section of urban America, much less a paradigm area along the lines of a Detroit or southside Chicago. But when they live in walled-off neighborhoods, or exclusive compounds, or communities that are far from the madding crowd, and then have the gall to turn around and be cynical about people like Zimmerman, that is sickening to me to the 10th degree.

    However, I don’t believe Surls was a liberal, or at least not a typical, dyed-in-the-wool one. So he perhaps deserves credit for not falling for the notion that his POV about Martin/Zimmerman was guided by great compassion and humaneness.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:18 pm

  37. Good’s testimony was good for the prosecution.

    Comment by JD (46092c) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:22 pm

  38. ?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:27 pm

  39. Trayvon’s case is falling apart?

    Gay marriage!!!!

    Comment by LAT Front page (be0117) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:33 pm

  40. OT, but things are bad in Egypt. U.S.`State Dept #2 was not happy to be called so late at night. Some embassy staff told to leave.

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/06/28/breaking-amerian-photojournalist-stabbed-to-death-in-egypt-during-pro-anti-morsi-protests/

    Comment by elissa (d03d59) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:37 pm

  41. #33, because understanding isn’t the objective, manipulation is. Be especially on-guard whenever the writer is Edward Jay Epstein. He’s widely suspected of being on the CIA’s payroll as far back at the JFK assassination. Google Operation Mockingbird.

    Comment by ropelight (172ac9) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:37 pm

  42. Didn’t we just send tons of aid and planes to Morsi?

    Comment by elissa (d03d59) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:39 pm

  43. A bad harvest, plus food prices getting dangerously out of reach,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:45 pm

  44. Patterico, is it ridiculous for me to think that the prosecutor is approaching the point of deliberately throwing the case?

    Comment by SPQR

    I won’t say ridiculous, but I will disagree, and direct you to the last paragraph of the post.

    You would not find me prosecuting this case, I promise you that. I would not care what kind of pressure anyone put on me. This is wrong.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:08 pm

  45. I had better add the obvious for the you know who crowd: that is my personal opinion. Not that of my office. Like it says in the sidebar.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:09 pm

  46. 37. Good’s testimony was good for the prosecution.

    Comment by JD (46092c) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:22 pm

    38. ?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/28/2013 @ 9:27 pm

    JD’s right; Good’s testimony was great for the prosecution.

    Assuming the prosecution wants to lose.

    In the same vein this was another strong witness for the prosecution.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-day-5-analysis-video-states-own-witnesses-undercut-theory-of-guilt//#more

    The other remarkable State witness was Linzee Folgate, the physician’s assistant who closed out the day. On direct, Mr. de la Rionda used her as a foil to create the impression that Zimmerman’s injuries were really quite inconsequential, having her talk mostly about clinical symptoms from which Zimmerman was not suffering at the time she examined him.

    This line of questioning seems remarkably foolish, for two reasons. First, there is no requirement under the law of self defense in Florida, or any other state, that a person must suffer so much as a scratch before they can use force, and even deadly force, in self-defense. All that the law of self-defense requires is that you have been REASONABLY IN FEAR of imminent death or grave bodily harm–it does NOT require that you ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE death or grave bodily harm before you can act in self-defense.

    Second, however much effort Mr. de la Rionda might invest in arguing that Zimmerman suffered no meaningful injury, the numerous bloody photos of his injuries that night easily belie any such claims.

    Indeed, on cross-examination O’Mara essentially ran out bloody photo after bloody-photo, asking in detail how each abrasion, contusion, laceration could have been caused–by traumatic impact, you say? Like if a fist was driven into his face? Or like if his head was pounded onto a concrete sidewalk by his attacker? Frankly, the whole line of questioning was an enormous gift to O’Mara, and as he walked back to the defense table after cross he had a broad smile on his face.

    He also questioned Folgate on some of ZImmerman’s more general health parameters. Blood pressure? Too high. Pulse rate? Too high. BMI? He’s clinically obese. All these facts belied de la Rionda’s attempts to create the impression that Zimmerman was some kind of lean, mean, MMA-fighting machine with his MMA gym membership.

    O’Mara’s biggest home run with Folgate came with his final question, however: “Medically speaking, would you say that whatever he did to stop the attack allowed him to survive it?” Folgate: “It could have, yes.” Boom.

    As an aside on a different thread DRJ speculated that the prosecution opened the door to bringing in the videos of Trayvon Martin engaging in his hobby of MMA style street fighting.

    It seems to me that since the state not only introduced the transcript in which Good mentioned what he described as TM engaging in an MMA style ground & pound but also brought up GZ’s membership in an MMA gym they didn’t just open the door. They drove a truck through any excuses the judge might have raised to keep it out.

    But I’m not an expert on that. All I can tell you is that if I was on the jury I’d be wondering why the state of Florida is wasting my time since every one of the prosecution’s witness does nothing except pile reasonable doubt upon reasonable doubt.

    I’m supposed to be convinced that Zimmerman acted with a depraved mind to convict him of 2nd degree murder, or negligence to the point of reckless disregard to convict him of manslaughter, and the state finds a witness that tells me that from a medical perspective GZ may well have saved his own life by shooting TM?

    If that’s not reasonable doubt, what is?

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:10 pm

  47. narciso,

    I miss your more cryptic comments.

    ==

    Hunger changes your frame of mind. I was starving one time (semi-intentional) and I was thinking “I have to kill some one and get some food”. How odd I thought.

    If there is hunger in Egypt the place will blow up. Totally.

    Comment by M. Simon (1aa256) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:18 pm

  48. There are demonstrations scheduled for this weekend,
    and even suggestions the military might step in, as they did in ’52, and didn’t give up ever since until two years ago.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:24 pm

  49. I think we all realize this is a persecution rather than a prosecution.

    So the persecuting attorney is doing his job sort of in the sense that he is allowing the liberal press to run thru a parade of the most foul mouthed self righteous micro brained race hucksters that the Democrat party could provide.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:33 pm

  50. They’re railroading that Cuban boy.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:35 pm

  51. 44. …I won’t say ridiculous, but I will disagree, and direct you to the last paragraph of the post.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:08 pm

    I get the fact the prosecution has to address all the evidence. And consequently as you say in the first sentence of the final paragraph:

    Sounds to me like the prosecution knew this guy was going to be called and did their best to put a positive spin on it, as best as they could.

    But then the idea they should even have attempted to make this case gets blown out of the water by the final sentence of the final paragraph.

    Problem is, his testimony is devastating to the prosecution any way you spin it.

    It wasn’t just his testimony, referring to Jonathon Good. That’s what I found so interesting about Linzee Folgate’s testimony. I don’t get what the state was thinking. They brought in a physician’s assistant who was I guess supposed to say that GZ had not yet suffered any life threatening injuries. Which is bizarre because I already knew before the attorneys at Legal Insurrection mentioned it that not having yet suffered life threatening injuries isn’t a requirement for engaging in legitimate self defense.

    You merely need to prove you have a reasonable fear you are the danger of life threatening injury or grave bodily harm is imminent.

    And the state’s witness, a physician’s assistance, confirmed the defense’s assertion that was a reasonable fear from a medical perspective.

    (O’Mara): “Medically speaking, would you say that whatever he did to stop the attack allowed him to survive it?” Folgate: “It could have, yes.”

    How does the state overcome that? It doesn’t matter how many neurosurgeons the state brings in now. GZ isn’t a neurosurgeon. There’s now reasonable doubt to believe that a layman like GZ would have had grounds to believe he or she wouldn’t have survived if they didn’t stop the attack. The state’s own medical witness confirmed that.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:46 pm

  52. He’s of Peruvian background.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:47 pm

  53. There are demonstrations scheduled for this weekend

    My initial response to your sentence was it referred to perhaps political activists in Florida, ready to clamor and cause commotion outside the courthouse in order to force the public into rallying around the cause of Trayvon Martin, or to make them spooked at the thought of what would happen if Zimmerman received a non-guilty verdict.

    That the distinction between the US and a nation like Egypt (or certainly a Mexico or Argentina) is not quite as wide and clear cut today as it was in the past says a lot to me.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/28/2013 @ 10:55 pm

  54. Probably plays the pan flute when he is not out creepy cracker stalking Obama’s imaginary composite son.
    When does the Secret Service testify?

    I want to know what this guy Bernie did to earn his shot at the Florida trial of the decade…
    Here Bernie, go depose your star witness at Trayvon’s moms house as soon as Crump is done coaching her…. she’s illiterate, belligerent, entitled and yes more than a bit dumb. Then try to get the paramedics to testify that as a cracker, Zimmerman’s head just might be naturally lumpy and prone to spontaneous bleeding. That bloody nose thing is probably just an impacted booger caused by stumbling around cracker drunk with a dirty finger knuckle deep up a nostril… we see it all the time out in the double wides… right?

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 6/28/2013 @ 11:06 pm

  55. Was that black girl retarded, or the defense counsel. Hmmm. She was so accomplished.

    Comment by pat (83ebf3) — 6/28/2013 @ 11:12 pm

  56. Saying the word Peruvian or writing it out, makes me feel like I know more Spanish than I need to.

    For conversational purposes I’ll continue refering to the defendant as “that poor Cuban boy”.

    Lost his father did he?

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/28/2013 @ 11:15 pm

  57. Never a burden to his mother. Poor, poor, Cuban kid.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/29/2013 @ 12:34 am

  58. Corey prosecuted a 12 year old boy, for murder, before this incident, and caught quite a bit of flack for it.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 5:18 am

  59. This is the way, the Post spins it;

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/conflicting-testimony-from-neighbors-in-zimmerman-trial/2013/06/28/124f211a-e01c-11e2-963a-72d740e88c12_story.html

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:27 am

  60. 19

    Get rid of “stand your ground” laws! One of the more asinine elements of the racial politics of this case is that the anti-Zimmerman crowd talks about it as if Florida’s “stand your ground” law had anything to do with it.

    The “stand your ground law” does have something to do with it in that it encourages people to carry guns and stand their ground (rather than avoiding confrontations).

    Also as a practical matter raising the speed limit from 55 to 65 doesn’t just increase the number of people going 55-65 it will also increase the number of people going over 65 (which is not to say Zimmerman was over the line).

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:48 am

  61. Don’t of it’s true, but I saw Judge Alex Ferrer, a former Florida judge, last night on “Hannity” (a show I rarely watch anymore). Florida has a quirk about witnesses in crimimal trials. The prosecution as per this law is required to call any and all available witnesses to a crime, and if they fail to do so and the defense in fact calls them, the defense is entitled in closing to point this out. Ferrer did not make clear whether this also requires the judge to give an adverse inference instruction in such situations. WOuld be clear that this would apply to Mr. Good, but at a loss why it would apply to “Precious”. Further that ….person was intereviewed in a room with Martin’s mother present; another in a legion of issues which make her credibility nil.

    As evidence all they can really say about this woman is phone records show she had several conversations with Martin, and she can testify to what she claims was she heard (noise and Martin’s statements) as a present sense impression exception to the usual hearsay rule. But in only can be proof that she heard (or claims she heard) these things, not that they actually occurred since she did not see the incident. It’s a very legalese but important distinction. Simply the prosecution calling her was a disaster and there is no way in hell the defense would’ve called her ever. If the DA was worried about the defense calling her they are blasted fools.

    Comment by Bugg (b32862) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:51 am

  62. Get rid of Corey.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:53 am

  63. Bugg, I doubt it’s the law. It’s sometimes a trick used by either party in arguments, kind of like Clint Eastwood did debating the empty chair. It’s also used by jailhouse lawyers, one actual example: Gang shooting in a school yard. S**tbird’s post-conviction argument, why did the prosecution call only four witnesses and not all 187?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:01 am

  64. Shearer, horse manure.

    Comment by SPQR (3dad66) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:03 am

  65. Can the Bar Nigong the morons on the Prosecution?

    Sheesh. This really looks like Prosecutorial Misconduct to me.

    Really? Every piece of evidence supports the Defendant’s story and the only contradicting evidence is testimony from a liar who changed her testimony after-the-fact — and likely due to pressure from the Prosecutor.

    Comment by Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:04 am

  66. I saw the following at cbs.com, in an article titled “Is Cursive Writing Dead?,” with reader comments following it.

    When asked if she could read a letter in court, witness Rachel Jeantel, her head bowed, murmured with embarrassment, “I don’t read cursive,” according to court testimony.


    Actually, she said she could read cursive, she just couldn’t speak cursive.

    That quip made me chuckle.

    From the NSA to the IRS, from Benghazi to Boston, from Hillary Clinton to Nidal Hasan, from Bradley Manning to Edward Snowden, from Obamacare to same-sex marriage, from Trayvon Martin to Alec Baldwin, from George Zimmerman to Paula Deen.

    America in the 21st century.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:26 am

  67. NK-

    The guy is a former Florida judge, but he didn’t make it clear if failing to call all relevant witnesses merely allowed the defense to make the point on closing or also made the judge hit the prosecution with an adverse inference charge in the PJI. From my misspent youth as a DA and then a defense attorney those are 2 very different things. Ferrer gave the impression it did lead to an adverse inference charge, i.e., the jury should hold it against the DA that the witness was called by the defense rather than prosecution.Hannity didn’t really allow him to discuss it much and instead had the other 2 guests shout and babble.Note to Fox News; if you’re going to have people on to discuss an issue let them speak rather than having a shout over the other guy festival. Further what rules are there to determine which witnesses are necessary? Is there a hearing on such an issue pretrial? All issues Ferrer should have been allowed and encouraged to explain.

    Comment by Bugg (b32862) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:30 am

  68. Hunger changes your frame of mind. I was starving one time (semi-intentional) and I was thinking “I have to kill some one and get some food”. How odd I thought.

    Just think of all the cute li’l commercial jingle possibilities… “Don’t kill tonight, call Chicken Delight…”

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (94ab1c) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:40 am

  69. Under Brady and progeny, the state cannot hide potentially exculpatory witnesses from the defense. It would be new to me if the state had to present them at trial. If it did present them, it would be as Patterico suggested, to minimize their impact.

    I’m not doing much, let me see if I can find some Florida law on this on Al Gore’s internets.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:41 am

  70. I still believe this is persecution to placate the race hustlers. Poor GZ and even poorer after not working for over a year.

    If the persecutors didn’t call witnesses for the defense, they wouldn’t have anyone to call.

    The state attorney assigned to the case(angela corey) is a whore and the persecutor her puppet.

    Comment by Jim (823b10) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:46 am

  71. Ferrer did not really discuss it as Brady material, which is a given. He made it specifically about calling witnesses and that this was unique to Florida law. Could very well he misspoke since Brady (Rosario is the leading case in NY, so here it’s typically called “Rosario material”)that’s applicable in every state and being a cable blowhard tried to make a common legal practice sound very complicated. As a DA and a defense attorney never understood DAs that argued against releasing materials spare witnesses’ contact data redacted. There’s nothing a defense attorney despises more than wading through page after page of documents, most pointless,to find a few needles in the haystack of repetitive nothing.

    Comment by Bugg (b32862) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:49 am

  72. There’s a fairly broaddiscovery rule, 3.220 which gives almost everything the prosecution has to the defendant, well beyond Brady, but I did not find any “adverse inference” instruction either in the code, rules, or instructions even for spoliation. ?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 8:27 am

  73. Advertised on CNN just now;

    NIGGER: the power of the N-Word.

    Because racial harmony!

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/29/2013 @ 8:45 am

  74. Mark,

    Actually, she speaks curse-ive very well.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/29/2013 @ 8:54 am

  75. allowing the liberal press to run thru a parade of the most foul mouthed self righteous micro brained race hucksters that the Democrat party could provide

    Here’s the rub. The most foul mouthed self righteous micro brained race hucksters paraded across CNN are US congressmen and women from black districts, elected to office presumably because they are comfortably racist.

    Is it fair to assume this a general condition of a population when they send representatives to Washington infused with the trait?

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/29/2013 @ 8:58 am

  76. 63

    Stand your ground laws encourage civilians to carry and use guns. You can argue about whether on balance this is good or bad but I don’t see much case that they don’t have this effect.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:08 am

  77. Re; # 69

    “The state attorney assigned to the case(angela corey) is a whore and the persecutor her puppet.”

    nonsense. A whore gives value for money. Corey is a Badger Game artist.

    Comment by C. S. P. Schofield (adb9dd) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:11 am

  78. You have it wrong, James. Stand your ground laws protect a person acting in self defense from having to prove that he had no ability to run and nowhere to run to. Only that he was lawfully where he was. There is no balance involved. Good 100, bad 0.

    Comment by the prescient nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:20 am

  79. Stand your ground laws encourage civilians to carry and use guns. You can argue about whether on balance this is good or bad but I don’t see much case that they don’t have this effect.

    The fact that you can’t see much case speaks more to your lack of imagination. Stand your ground is not at all applicable to this case, and even if it were, it discourages confrontation. It gives protection to those that are confronted.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:26 am

  80. When I was an armed officer we were explicitly told that any attack which could incapacitate us was to be considered a deadly attack as being incapacitated could lead directly to our own weapon taken and used against us/others.

    IIRC there was an incident at a US DOD facility, one of the Knolls Labs, where a contract worker grabbed an officers PR-24 baton and was shot. Ruled valid self defense, although the factls later showed the worker most likely thought he was horsing around.

    Comment by Have Blue (7d2a7d) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:38 am

  81. Speaking of demonstrations this weekend, it illustrates how deeply reactionary Obama is.

    In Iran, Turkey, Egypt, anywhere, he sides with the fatuous professors and elites who only want to control their people by force or by ancient religious doctrine. He reveres socialism, which has failed anywhere it’s been tried.

    Obama, El Caudillo!

    Comment by Patricia (be0117) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:42 am

  82. 77.You have it wrong, James. Stand your ground laws protect a person acting in self defense from having to prove that he had no ability to run and nowhere to run to. Only that he was lawfully where he was. There is no balance involved. Good 100, bad 0.

    Few laws are 100% good and this isn’t one of them. Stand your ground laws make it harder to prosecute bad shootings as well as good shootings.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:48 am

  83. 81. Few laws are 100% good and this isn’t one of them. Stand your ground laws make it harder to prosecute bad shootings as well as good shootings.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:48 am

    You’re 100% wrong.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0614/Stand-your-ground-defense-fails-in-Texas-case.-Lessons-for-George-Zimmerman

    As he confronted several neighbors over a loud stereo two years ago, retired Houston-area firefighter Raul Rodriguez brandished a gun and warned, “I am standing my ground here” – a warning that was picked up by the camera he had set up to film the scene.

    As the camera was knocked to the ground, a barrage of gunfire ensued, as Mr. Rodriguez killed Kelly Danaher, an unarmed elementary school teacher, and wounded two other unarmed men.

    On its face, the scenario appears, as Rodriguez apparently realized, a classic example of a “stand your ground” defense. In all, 33 states – including Texas – have stand-your-ground laws that say a victim of a potentially deadly attack has no obligation to retreat, but can use lethal force in defense.

    RECOMMENDED: How 5 young black men see the Trayvon Martin case

    Yet on Wednesday, a jury in Houston took five hours to find Rodriguez guilty of murder, dismissing the stand-your-ground defense on a simple point: If Rodriguez had not provoked the fight and brandished the weapon first, it’s unlikely anyone would have been killed.

    “This is not what stand your ground is,” said Kelli Johnson, the prosecutor.

    In all the states that have passed some version of stand your ground since Florida’s landmark law in 2005, defendants can’t claim the “no duty to retreat” protection if they’re in the commission of a crime or if they initiate the confrontation.

    You’re basing your conclusions on press misrepresentations of what “stand your ground” laws. If you ever took the training necessary to get a concealed handgun license you’d know just how wrong you are.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:10 am

  84. Also as a practical matter raising the speed limit from 55 to 65 doesn’t just increase the number of people going 55-65 it will also increase the number of people going over 65 (which is not to say Zimmerman was over the line).

    Ok, this right here is absolute BS. You could raise the limit only 5mph and you’ll still have Clovers driving 20 under anyway.

    That’s like saying, “if you make horse-f**king legal, more people will f**k horses!”

    What you’re really saying is that there is no such thing as a moral compass outside of a politician’s scribble called “law.” If horse-f**king became legal, I would still have no desire nor inclination to do that. Just as making guns illegal will not make me give mine away.

    Comment by Ghost (2d8874) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:14 am

  85. Stand your ground laws encourage civilians to legally carry and legally use guns.

    James – FTFY. Why do you say that like it’s a bad thing?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:15 am

  86. This trial gives us an idea of what would have happened if Nifong had been able to bring a trial against the Duke Lacrosse players.

    Comment by DN (09d6b1) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:20 am

  87. 59. The “stand your ground law” does have something to do with it in that it encourages people to carry guns and stand their ground (rather than avoiding confrontations).

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:48 am

    Not having a duty to retreat and avoiding confrontations are two entirely separate things. If you get involved in a shooting that results from a confrontation that you and the other actor mutually participated in you can expect to be charged with a crime. Even if you didn’t start the confrontation like this Rodriquez guy did, and even in Texas.

    The prosecution of GZ is demonstrating why that is. They’re going to try to paint you as the aggressor. Which is why it’s so important that the prosecution had to get Rachel Jeantel to changer her story. Instead of hearing GZ responding to TM’s challenge with, “What are you talking about?” she had to tell Brian de la Rosa she heard GZ say “What are you doing here?”

    The first can portray GZ as not wanting to confront TM. The second can’t.

    Actually, the Raoul Rodriquez case wasn’t as cut and dried as the MFM reported it. The reason he had set up the camera was to record the loud music and the reason he was in the street outside his neighbor’s home was that he was waiting for the police again. He had called the police three or four times previously but when the police arrived the neighbors weren’t on their balcony loudly singing karaoke. So they just looked and drove off.

    Rodriquez actually videotaped himself explaining why he was setting up the camera and why he was where he was. He had the handgun simply because like most CHL holders he always has it on when he leaves the house. Even Gov. Perry says he does as much, and he’s got a DPS security detail.

    There’s are a lot of indications of poor headwork on his part. For instance he took out his licensed concealed handgun when he saw a car coming because he thought it was a squad car. Which in and of itself a good way to get shot. But it turned out that the care belonged to one of the party goers. Who told the other partiers some guy threatened him with a gun which caused the highly intoxicated party goers to spill out into the street and angrily confront him.

    There was quit a bit of evidence that Rodriquez didn’t want the confrontation he was involved in but didn’t think he could safely disengage. So he just wanted the cops to get there more quickly. Rodriquez was actually on the phone with the 911 dispatcher when he felt he was forced to shoot.

    In any case if you can be painted as starting a confrontation, or escalating or even continuing it, you can expect to be charged. Especially when one of the people you shoot as a result can be described as “widely beloved,” as the local press did when talking about the elementary school teacher. And since Rodriquez was waiting outside the neighbor’s apartment to file a nuisance complaint it was easy for the MFM to portray him as some hothead who shot his neighbors over loud music.

    The bottom line is it’s ridiculous to say that “stand your ground” laws encourage confrontation. All stand your ground laws do is remove some elements you’d normally have to prove to assert self-defense. Anyone who takes a CHL course in Texas and pays attention (it’s not entirely clear to me Rodriquez did) knows that first bullet is going to cost you a big chunk of your savings just to prove you were acting in self-defense. Which is why the CHL instructor advised our class that in addition to picking out a carry gun we also purchase an umbrella policy to cover our expenses if we ever have to use it.

    Stand your ground laws or no I’d never risk getting involved in a confrontation over a loud music complaint while carrying a concealed handgun. Murder, kidnapping, sexual assault, armed robbery; yes I’d risk a confrontation over those since someone’s life’s at risk. But as our instructor told us, you can shoot someone to protect property in Texas but if the DA is convinced you shot a burglar as he’s fleeing your house because you didn’t want to miss “American Idol” you can kiss your but goodbye.

    Prof. Jacobson is quoted in the CSM article I linked to saying that stand your ground laws are widely misrepresented in the press:

    “What the Texas case says is you have to take each state law and each fact pattern on its own terms and you can’t make sweeping generalizations, as many opponents of stand your ground laws have, that this is a license to kill – it’s clearly not,” says Cornell University law professor William Jacobson, who runs a conservative blog at Legal Insurrection.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 11:20 am

  88. If anybody cares to know what they’re talking about, this is the instruction the Zimmerman jury will get, if the case gets that far.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 11:29 am

  89. Durham County North Carolina DA Mike Nifong’s ugly racist and deeply self-interested crusade against the Duke Lacrosse players was upended by an investigation by the North Carolina Bar Association. Comments Nifong made to reporters during the first days of the case alerted the NC Bar to possible official conduct violations and they began an internal process to examine his professional behavior.

    Eventually, the Bar charged Nifong with several ethics violations, which constituted a conflict of interest resulting in a situation where Nifong could no longer act as a prosecutor in the Lacrosse players case. Nifong had no choice but to ask the State Attorney General to take charge of the prosecution. Quickly, NC Attorney General Roy Cooper appointed a Special Prosecutor who initiated a review of the details of the case and an examination of the charges of sexual assault and kidnapping against Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans.

    The review and investigation found no basis for prosecution and all charges were dropped. Nifong was later disbarred.

    In Florida a different process took place. The police and the local DA declined to prosecute. That’s when Pam Bondi, Florida Attorney General stepped in, appointed a Special Prosecutor, and initiated a campaign to railroad George Zimmerman of murder.

    In NC, the rule of law prevailed, in Florida self-interest and ambition combines with the rule of the racist mob to mock the law.

    Comment by ropelight (03b57e) — 6/29/2013 @ 11:31 am

  90. 87. If anybody cares to know what they’re talking about, this is the instruction the Zimmerman jury will get, if the case gets that far.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 11:29 am

    The instruction says the defendant can’t assert the right of self-defense if the defendant ” initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless…”

    I’m surprised the instruction doesn’t tell the jury that GZ couldn’t have provoked TM with words alone.

    It’s not the Florida statute I know, but don’t most states have laws that say you can’t pound somebody’s head into the sidewalk just because you think you were “disrespected?”

    Texas Penal Code – Section 9.31.(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
    (1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 11:52 am

  91. Some parts will be edited out. Only those parts that conform to the charge and the evidence will be given. The “no duty to retreat” part seems to be an “always give”.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/29/2013 @ 12:00 pm

  92. 84

    84.Stand your ground laws encourage civilians to legally carry and legally use guns.

    Like the guy in the link in 82? Making it harder to convict people for using guns doesn’t just encourage legal use.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 1:39 pm

  93. Where this case went wrong was when the state attorney’s office stepped in and bypassed the grand jury process.

    I’m not disputing the conventional wisdom that any decent prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. But the Anglo-Saxon tradition of presenting cases like this one — especially when there is a claim of self-defense or other justification — is older than the United States.

    The prosecution’s evidence would certainly have resulted in a no-bill. The community would have spoken — not through the unchallengeable decision of prosecutors bending to political correctness, but through the community’s own representatives on the grand jury. And there the case would, and should, have ended.

    Comment by Beldar (4fd21e) — 6/29/2013 @ 2:50 pm

  94. (For those who haven’t been following the case, the Florida state attorney’s office deliberately and shamefully bypassed the grand jury process in this case. Florida law needs changing to prevent that.)

    Comment by Beldar (4fd21e) — 6/29/2013 @ 2:51 pm

  95. Twist:

    http://patdollard.com/2013/06/trayvon-martins-involvement-in-local-burglaries-covered-up-by-media-school-police/

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:10 pm

  96. 84.Stand your ground laws encourage civilians to legally carry and legally use guns.

    Like the guy in the link in 82? Making it harder to convict people for using guns doesn’t just encourage legal use.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 6/29/2013 @ 1:39 pm

    Seriously? It only took the jury five hours to convict Raoul Rodriquez. It’s laughable to suggest the stand your ground laws made it harder to convict him. They weren’t even a speedbump on the road to convicting him.

    So where are you going to move the goalposts next so you can try to continue your campaign against stand your ground laws.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:10 pm

  97. Shearer, just repeating MSM propaganda won’t cut it.

    Comment by SPQR (3dad66) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:14 pm

  98. Make new Florida law, or change the Attorney General who abused existing law?

    I voted for Pam Bondi in the 2010 election, but I’ll never make that mistake again.

    Comment by ropelight (03b57e) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:16 pm

  99. Our esteemed host wrote:

    You would not find me (personally) prosecuting this case, I promise you that. I would not care what kind of pressure anyone put on me. This is wrong.

    And, of course, the initial police investigation led to George Zimmerman not being arrested or charged, and the local district attorney’s office declined to push for charges; this case isn’t being conducted by your counterpart, but by special prosecutors bought in due to outside pressure.

    I haven’t been watching the trial or following it closely, but what I have read suggests to me that the prosecution is making a poor case because they have no case. Even the liberal websites, like Think Progress, seem to be grasping at straws.

    One would think that the jurors would have been singularly unimpressed by the testimony of the lovely Rachel Jeantel.

    Still, anyone who says he can know, in advance, what a jury will do, is lying. But the thought that keeps occurring to me is: will Eric Holder order federal charges of violating Trayvon Martin’s civil rights if Mr Zimmerman is acquitted on the state charges? I’d bet a case of Mountain Dew that is exactly what will happen.

    Comment by The Dana pointing out the obvious (af9ec3) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:35 pm

  100. My wife noted that even the local 24 hr news station, known to be as PC and lib as any, commented that the prosecution witnesses sounded like they were for the defense.

    But as already pointed out, juries are not guaranteed to make rational and reasonable decisions.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:44 pm

  101. sarahW@94–thanks. That’s quite an article. As a commenter there mentioned if the burglary(s) had been handed properly by LE instead of buried by the school in order to keep down student crime statistics, Trayvon might not have still been out casing places to burgle and might still be alive. Tray’s dad doesn’t come out so well in the article either. It’s just amazing how much the “journalists” missed or didn’t bother to ask about in this high profile case. (eyeroll)

    Comment by elissa (b60602) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:50 pm

  102. It’s actually worse then that, much like the resident of Altgeld Gardens, their was an utter failure of the system;

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html#.Uc9hWH41NbA.twitter

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:55 pm

  103. Twist:

    http://patdollard.com/2013/06/trayvon-martins

    Sheesh. Chief Hurley was doing to his bureaucracy what like-minded people have been and are doing to the State Department, the US military, the IRS, the NSA, the DOJ, the White House, the EPA, school districts throughout America, etc, etc, etc.

    We have met the enemy and he is us.

    (Well, if not “not us” very literally, then certainly our fellow citizens who suffer from the derangement of crummy judgment and lousy policymaking, aka liberal-itis.)

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/29/2013 @ 3:56 pm

  104. Their might have been some overlap between the two pieces.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 4:01 pm

  105. It’s actually worse then that

    I wouldn’t be so resentful towards various liberals in the media, and elsewhere — who love to sound so idealistic, humane and tolerant — if they, instead of casually and nonchalantly residing in protected, generally socially-economically segregated enclaves, lived in Trayvon-Martin type of environments 24/7.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/29/2013 @ 4:07 pm

  106. Sonnie over at Breitbart indicates she has friends and relatives very like Trayvon and R. Jeantel and exhorts us to “send our bucket down” to these folk.

    Well maybe not me, I really don’t know what she’s saying. Something would prolly get lost in translation.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/29/2013 @ 4:21 pm

  107. Basically, ‘rescue them’ gary, but what if they don’t want to get in the lifeboat.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 4:53 pm

  108. So when does the prosecution get to put on its case?

    And why do the prosecutors act as defense attorneys?

    Gosh, Floriduh law is hard!

    Comment by TomB (4a72e4) — 6/29/2013 @ 5:07 pm

  109. They had no case, just the snowjob Crump had Julison put up, next it’s time to ‘sweep the leg’
    ala Karate Kid.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 5:10 pm

  110. Well, assuming that the state has any interest what-so-ever in the truth, it might matter but, so far, there is precious little evidence that the prosecution is concerned in the least about such trivial matters as who assaulted whom.

    The need to railroad a “creepy-assed cracker” to show who is running the show!

    Comment by WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 6/29/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  111. The Trayvon Martin incident from October 2011, kicked off an internal investigation by M-DSPD Police Chief Hurley. They didn’t want the public to know that Trayvon had been picked up with stolen goods from a nearby B&E by school security.
    School security answers to the Superintendent, not the police department, in this case Alberto Carvalho.
    You think Alberto would have incentive to prevent the railroading of that poor Cuban kid?

    Breaking and entering implies a generally violent person

    aka this guy. He broke in on a young mother with her infant children, then beat the crap out of her.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:57 pm

  112. Not that it matters, but his mother was Peruvian, and his grandfather was black,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 6:59 pm

  113. Breaking and entering implies a generally violent person

    Which is why in states with strong Castle Doctrine laws, in these situations the homeowner/occupant is presumed to have acted in self-defense. The individual doesn’t even have to raise a defense, but the state has to prove otherwise if it wants to challenge the presumption.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 7:48 pm

  114. “U a hoodlum,” said the friend. “Naw,” said Martin. “I’m a gangsta.”

    Always read links from narciso.
    It is criminal that too many people helped put treyvon’s parents up to pursuing this.
    I guess the neighborhood association already paid a settlement from what I remember. They need space and grief counseling.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/29/2013 @ 8:16 pm

  115. Eric Zorn in his latest Chicago Tribune column (which is linkable off of RealClearPolitics blog) makes a powerful plea especially to his liberal readers to look at the reality of the Zimmerman case. He points out the lynch mob mentality, reiterates that Martin was not the angelic middle schooler of the pictures and narrative, and that Zimmerman sustained severe injuries. Zorn points out that the trial so far has shown that the prosecution basically has no case.

    I want to excerpt one of the comments I found on Zorn’s post left by a person named Jonathan Cohen which I loved. He evokes Atticus Finch.

    Each day Mark O’Meara looks more and more like Atticus Finch. Defense attorney is a tough job. Most clients are either guilty or are at least problematic people. But for all the cynicism that is beaten into defense attorneys by the brutal world in which they operate, there remains some part of the idealism that led them to that profession. Somewhere simple pride must lead them to dream of some day taking on a very public case of a despised defendant who is innocent but being railroaded by a howling lynch mob ginned up by opportunistic politicians and journalists.

    Anyone who looked carefully at the evidence that was presented at the time of the indictment knew that there was little grounds fora prosecution let alone a conviction. The problem for the prosecuting attorneys isn’t that the defense attorneys are doing a better job. The problem is that the overwhelming evidence points to Zimmerman’s innocence and any honest evaluation of the available evidence should have told them so. There is a reason that the prosecution witnesses have essentially been turned into defense witnesses. It is simply because Zimmerman is obviously innocent.

    Comment by elissa (900371) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:52 pm

  116. Yes, O’Mora is so earnest in that part, West is more flashy, but the fact remains there is no case.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:56 pm

  117. 115. Yes, O’Mora is so earnest in that part, West is more flashy, but the fact remains there is no case.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/29/2013 @ 9:56 pm

    I don’t usually agree with Ann Althouse, but she thinks the Zimmerman prosecution is designed to fail. The state went ahead with this trial to prove to the lynch mob that Zimmerman should never have been prosecuted.

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/2013/06/now-playing-in-theater-of-racial.html

    June 29, 2013
    Now playing in the Theater of Racial Reconciliation: the George Zimmerman trial.

    …Watching much of the trial these last 3 days, I’ve come to believe that the prosecution is conducting a theatrical performance in racial reconciliation. It wasn’t politically easy to decline to prosecute Zimmerman, even though the evidence showed he could not be convicted, so this prosecution was mounted to demonstrate to the public that Zimmerman should not be convicted. I’m not condoning this use of the power to prosecute. I’m simply observing what is happening. I think the trial is theater, and if it’s done right — with people like Crump contributing what they can — the people who got stirred up in Act I can experience catharsis.

    She thinks the trial is Act II. I still think there’ll be an Act III in which we’re all supposed to join hands and walk down to our state capitols and demand our rulers repeal stand your ground/Castle doctrine laws before we kill again.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:35 pm

  118. @ Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:35 pm

    I object and move for acquittal. Mollifying a mob is not a valid reason to bring prosecution against the poor Cuban boy.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/29/2013 @ 10:55 pm

  119. Here’s two questions:

    1) I think the Murder 2 charge is utterly preposterous. I’m also very skeptical about manslaughter but it sort of depends on a more professional understanding of the law and the evidence than I would have. Since there are lawyers here, are there any grounds in law and/or evidence for a rational non-stupid person to vote for a manslaughter conviction?

    2) Here’s a moral reasoning problem I’m curious about. Let’s say you were a juror on this trial, and having listened in good faith, and impartially, to all the evidence, you concluded immediately that the whole thing was nonsense and voted to acquit. You discover in the first five minutes in the jury room that all the other jurors feel the same way: in other words, you’ve got a solid Not Guilty verdict within five minutes.

    Given it’s such a political powder keg, would you feel a moral obligation to sit and play cards in the jury room for a day or two to give the impression that you were really pondering a thing which needs no pondering, so as not to give offense and possibly help prevent civil unrest; or would you feel you had a moral duty to march back out with your verdict within five minutes, in order to send the state a message about false and malicious prosecution?

    I don’t know what I would do myself, curious if others have a confident view.

    Comment by kirby79 (fee1b9) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:43 am

  120. the saddest part of this whole thing is that we even had to listen to Ms Chantel in the 1st place and then make her the face of America for her 15 minutes that she never ever deserved nor was warranted

    I denounce myself

    Comment by E.PWJ (016f5f) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:10 am

  121. I hope Zimmerman sues Trayvons parents for the money the extorted and the lies they told – he should move to Texas and sue their lyin butts

    Comment by E.PWJ (016f5f) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:12 am

  122. jeantel, sorry to all the chantels out there

    Comment by E.PWJ (016f5f) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:17 am

  123. It strikes me that the prosecution is calling the defense witnesses. Who is the defense going to call? Can the judge issue a directed verdict?

    Comment by quasimodo (6d3411) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:56 am

  124. There are no grounds for manslaughter, just as there are no grounds for second degree murder. It would also be a horrible loss for Zimmerman. Martin was a “child” under Florida law, Zimmerman would face 30 years in prison. A compromise verdict may be just the straw the prosecution is praying for.

    And Althouse should never be taken seriously. She’s a dipstick.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:19 am

  125. Yes, the judge “can” dismiss the case on directed verdict, but the standard she must apply is the evidence viewed in the light most favorable to the prosecution. What is your judgment?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:25 am

  126. She does have some blindsides;

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/another_race-based_show_trial_turns_into_farce.html

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:29 am

  127. The following is worth scrutinizing because — as with so many controversies of today (including the reason a trial in Florida is occurring to begin with) — the core of the issue (ta-da!) is liberalism gone berserk. The idiotic leftist tilt of a community, in which over 90-plus percent of people, decade after decade, embrace ideas and politicians of the left, the idiotic leftist tilt of people (or their bowing to it) in positions of authority, and a media that, while not quite as ludicrously one-sided (perhaps over 80-plus percent of the left), is similarly unbalanced.

    wnd.com, May 18, 2013: Could we finally have a recent case of racial mob violence that involved Asians? Are Asians running amok in Des Moines, Iowa, of all places? Fighting and firing guns and causing mayhem on the grounds of the state Capitol? That is what a reasonable person might assume from the local stories over the weekend.

    The headlines from a local TV station tantalized: “Teens fight at CelebrAsian” The story revealed how people were fighting in and around this annual festival of Asian culture. When they left they found a nearby place to fight some more. Someone fired a gun.

    Laurie Lavorato, the police spokeswoman during the last known incident of widespread racial violence in Des Moines, no longer was available for confirmation. Lavorato got demoted and sent to down to traffic division following that episode.

    A recap: In 2010 at the Iowa State Fair, large groups of black people were assaulting patrons to the Iowa State Fair. It happened three nights in a row. “We had a lot of assaults on people randomly walking out of the Iowa State Fair. Most of our victims happen to be white. Is that a racial thing? I don’t know. It’s all under investigation,” Lavorato told the local ABC affiliate.

    “They were running around like a swarm of bees,” Lavorato said. One police officer said in a report that some were shouting it was “Beat Whitey Night.” In another attack near the fairgrounds, a mob of black people was led by a local high school basketball star Reginald Rashawn White allegedly was randomly attacking and stabbing white people. Witness Brian Ray Fees…said the attackers were beating the victim while shouting racial slurs. “Just kill the white dude. Kick his butt. That kind of thing. A lot of expletives too,” Fees told local Channel 13 news.

    A local politician said something that the Register deemed important enough to print, but not important enough to help us understand what he meant: “State Rep. Ako Abdul-Samad, D-Des Moines, who has worked to fight gang-related violence, said he doesn’t have enough information to decide if the fights were racially motivated. He said police comments that race was involved could miss other factors, such as nonracial taunting.

    Abdul-Samad was echoing comments from State Rep. Wayne Ford, who had said that the entertainment and the exhibits at the State Fair were “too white” and the fair needed to book more black entertainers.

    Apparently the police spokeswoman was also to blame. She got demoted: According to the chief of police, “People are very sensitive to remarks like that, so I had some real grave concerns about us stepping out and I wanted to make certain that we were right to message the State Fair events that way.”

    Back to CelebrAsian. Most of the news accounts were no help. According to the Des Moines Register, a large group of young people was standing around near the festival. These people, “when asked, declined to come participate in the event.” KCCI News 8 was a bit more explicit: “Authorities said a group of teenagers was asked to leave the festival.” But Asian people firing guns, getting into fights and causing mayhem at the Asian festival? WHO TV provided a video clue: The news showed several people in custody for questioning. All black. Finally, a police officer provided confirmation. “The crowd was made up of African Americans,” he said.

    Meanwhile, Monday morning, two days after the black mob violence in Des Moines, the Register ran an editorial bemoaning the fact that black people were over represented in the state’s prison system…

    Keep in mind that if the phenomenon of Nidal-Hasan-ization (and Nidal Hasan is not black, btw) can corrupt — and is corrupting — no less than the US military (and NOT the ACLU, Green Peace, the Rainbow Coalition, NOW, GLAAD, NAACP, etc), variations of this certainly are occurring throughout society in general.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:48 am

  128. I found this by following Steve’s link; good article written by a liberal:

    Zimmerman trial has all the ingredients for a miscarriage of justice

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:55 am

  129. 127. That is the Zorn column I mentioned upthread with the Atticus Finch comment. Thank you for linking it because I couldn’t last night.

    Comment by elissa (a70b23) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:59 am

  130. And Althouse should never be taken seriously. She’s a dipstick.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:19 am

    I really enjoy her blog, but the secret is indeed to not take her seriously. She is very much an academic with little contact with the world as I know it, which is why she entertains a lot of theories that are obviously wrong, but interesting. Great discussion threads for the most part. She also did good work during the Madison protests.

    I don’t think the judge can give a directed verdict, even if her tendencies up to this point hadn’t been pro-state. The discredited witness Jeantel’s testimony is (weak) evidence that George was the aggressor in the fight he defended himself from, so this needs to go to the jury in my opinion.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:10 am

  131. elissa wrote:

    Zimmerman sustained severe injuries

    Well, no. Mr Zimmerman sustained injuries, a bloody nose, and some cuts and bruises; offered first aid at the scene, he declined a trip to the hospital. I wouldn’t call those “severe” injuries. He was losing a fist fight, right up until it became something other than a fist fight.

    However, the fact that it even became a fist fight destroys the prosecution’s claim that he killed Mr Martin not in self-defense, but because he “wanted to.” If he was out to kill Mr Martin, he’d have shot him before Mr Martin could get in a blow.

    Comment by The Dana pointing out the obvious (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 12:16 pm

  132. 123. And Althouse should never be taken seriously. She’s a dipstick.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:19 am

    The point being even a dipstick can see the glaringly obvious. This trial is a complete sham.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 12:26 pm

  133. Dana @30, I wouldn’t be too quick to underestimate the severity of the injuries. Even if he declined a trip to the hospital the night of the shooting. His adrenaline would have been up. Then there’s the psychological relief of having survived a life threatening event.

    This is why people can walk around normally immediately after an accident on what turns out to be a broken leg. They can’t walk around later. Or why (in addition to the fact that it takes time for inflammation to set in) whiplash and back pain symptoms take time to manifest themselves.

    In any case GZ had injuries when self defense merely requires that you have a reasonable fear that you’re about to experience deadly force or suffer great bodily harm.

    In addition to actually having injuries, the PA who assisted the Doctor who treated GZ the next day, Linzee Folgate, testified that those injuries were consistent with being punched in the face and getting the back of his head slammed into a sidewalk. And she testified that in her medical opinion GZ might not have survived the attack if he hadn’t stopped it.

    The fact is GZ could have been out cold on the next punch and dead within minutes if TM continued to beat him the way he was. There’s no way he could have determined he would live, and if he did live how permanently he would have been injured.

    Had Reginald Denny been armed no doubt in the wake of the Rodney King riots he too would have been accused of being a white racist who killed unarmed black men. But he was beaten within an inch of his life and after years of therapy he still can’t speak or walk normally.

    He’d have been entirely justified shooting those guys, as many as it took to neutralize the threat, before they ever laid a hand on him and dragged him from his truck.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 12:48 pm

  134. …the PA who assisted the Doctor who treated GZ the next day, Linzee Folgate, testified that those injuries were consistent with being punched in the face and getting the back of his head slammed into a sidewalk. And she testified that in her medical opinion GZ might not have survived the attack if he hadn’t stopped it.

    I still can’t believe this was a witness for the prosecution.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 12:50 pm

  135. Ann Althouse is smart and pretty i like her a lot

    I thought she was annoyingly hamletesque about deciding who to vote for in 2012 though

    but you know that was a big step for her

    Comment by happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:04 pm

  136. happyft

    the picture she has on her blog isquestioned to be at least three decades old, if this is true, to me goes to her credibility which I have always found at times to be lacking.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:10 pm

  137. Dana

    Zimmerman didn’t have any facial swelling, severe bruising in the pictures I saw nor any trauma to the head except a scrape when he fell to the ground. Yes he had injuries, yes his life possibly – we will never know – his life was possibly in danger – but the standard of shooting someone who throws a punch or two is really going to be the point?

    The kid died before we knew what he was going to do, he seemed to be dangerous and a wild animal to just grab someone and throw them down on the ground like that.

    BUT GOING TO THE FACTS – Z

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:14 pm

  138. she changes her pic a lot Mr. EPWJ and she does a lot of video

    plus she has a great smile and eyes what sparkle with wisdom

    Comment by happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:16 pm

  139. BUT GOING TO THE FACTS – Zimmerman – did he overreact? I would think so but a standard is that he didn’t and he should go free and sue those who said he did wrong and did this deliberately.

    Trayvons parents need to be forced to return that money.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:18 pm

  140. “But Jonathan Good, a former resident at the townhouse complex, told the jury in Seminole County criminal court that he never saw Martin slam Zimmerman’s head into the concrete sidewalk, undermining a key element in Zimmerman’s defense.”

    Possibly Mark O’Meara is saving this for closing arguments.

    Now, there is no question that George Zimmerman had those injuries to the back of his head, and they had to come from his head slamming the sidewalk.

    Nobody saw the two fighters switch positions.

    Nobody saw the start of the fight.

    Zimmerman’s head was slammed down yet he didn’t pull out a gun, and took punishment for around 45 seconds.

    He was still crying for help around the time he pulled out a gun.

    Is that depraved indifference?

    Nobody seeing Zimmerman’s head being slammed HELPS the defense because it means it happened more than half a minute before he pulled out the gun.

    What Zimmerman says is that all that time he was trying to hide the gun (which of course handicapped him in the fight) and when Trayvon Martin saw the gun he said words to the effect that now Zimmerman was going to die and he had a reasonable fear that Trayvon Martin would be able to get that gun from him. So he shot him first.

    And of course he didn’t know that police had been called, given the location, and were about to arrive.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:21 pm

  141. But for all the talking heads on both sides to say that this is a cut and dry case for Zimmerman need to see pictures of MMA fighters or bar brawl participants to see that the injuries – yes they were there, but to me, were insignificant as far as a standard to kill.

    But since Trayvon looked like he was intending to hurt Zimmerman grievously, then well Zimmerman did what he had to do.

    But are people going to be killed for shoving someone, are we setting a new low bar for the use of deadly force?

    That’s why this isn’t the cake walk everyone thinks it is.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:22 pm

  142. feets

    she was for Obama and secretly still is, that all you really need to know

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:23 pm

  143. “injuries – yes they were there, but to me, were insignificant as far as a standard to kill.”

    EPWJ – you’ve got yourself completely confused. The standard for self defense has nothing to do with the severity of injuries already received.

    Then you add the line “But are people going to be killed for shoving someone, are we setting a new low bar for the use of deadly force?”

    What the hell does that have to do with anything? Its completely unrelated to the case at hand, Florida law and unrelated to anyone’s suggestions about self defense law.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:41 pm

  144. EPWJ – Are you a trained medical professional too?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:43 pm

  145. SPQR

    That was an incorrect statement -totally incorrect

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:45 pm

  146. Daley

    yes

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:46 pm

  147. EPWJ – those statements were direct quotations from your comment.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:48 pm

  148. SPQR

    He had minor injuries, very minor, this is the problem.

    But the kid throwing him to the ground then starting to imitate an MMA style pounding, this makes it difficult to convict Zimmerman if he was smaller, and weaker – which is undetermined.

    Trayvon acted with malice not fear, and certainly provoked the encounter to a physical level and got shot dead as an result.

    But this wasn’t a cut and dried situation like most seem to think. If Zimmerman had to be hospitalized, then it would have been a cut and dried situation, but the fact he even refused aide from the paramedics who cleaned him up anyway could and will be used against him.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:52 pm

  149. SPQR

    Your statement was incorrect, 2nd try at basic reading comprehension

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:53 pm

  150. EPWJ, I don’t have a reading comprehension problem, you have an incoherency problem. Not that that is news. The severity of his injuries have nothing to do with self defense law.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:55 pm

  151. E.PWJ, GZ didn’t shoot TM because he was shoved in a bar fight.

    That’s a seriously flawed analogy because if GZ brought a gun into a bar that would be illegal in Florida, thus he’d be the aggressor, and getting shoved is inadequate provocation.

    I was instructed that to be in reasonable fear for your life, a reasonable person would have to believe the attacker has the intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm, the ability to do so, and the threat is imminent.

    But here’s what the Florida statute says:

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2012&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20776

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

    If we stick to the facts of the GZ case all the elements for reasonable self-defense are there.

    But, sure, it’s easy to make up alternate scenarios where they aren’t.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 1:57 pm

  152. are we setting a new low bar for the use of deadly force?

    Is your ambivalence coming from the touchy-feely, big-hearted part of your soul? If it is — and in this case — dismiss it, don’t rely upon it, don’t trust it. The sentiments behind such a mixed emotion, when applied to the particulars of Martin and Zimmerman, have a knack for steering people in the wrong direction, time and time again. Misplaced compassion is anything but compassionate.

    However, if you delve into what is fueling your reaction, and you instead detect a strain of ruthlessness and callousness, then, yes, okay, Trayvon Martin deserves some emotional accommodation. And, in turn, it also makes sense to shrug off the plight of George Zimmerman–who in order to not have triggered that feeling of ambivalence (due to one’s ruthlessness) would have to have been the dead one.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:09 pm

  153. No one is saying that the severity or lack thereof concerning Mr Zimmerman’s injuries constitutes any standard at all concerning his guilt or innocence. But I do object to them being called severe or serious, because they simply were not. He walked away, after a bit of first aid, and had no documented turn for the worse or concussion.

    He was losing a fight that he may or may not have started, right up until the moment that he won the fight, for good.

    Comment by The Dana who strives for accuracy (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:10 pm

  154. Mr 57 wrote, before citing Florida statutes:

    I was instructed that to be in reasonable fear for your life, a reasonable person would have to believe the attacker has the intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm, the ability to do so, and the threat is imminent.

    Given that Mr Zimmerman was losing the fight, and has injuries consistent with his head being down, probably battered down, against the pavement, the “ability to do so” standard would seem to have been met, even though it was not part of the statute you cited.

    Comment by The Dana who isn't a lawyer (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:13 pm

  155. But I do object to them being called severe or serious

    Yep, because this is sort of like a sprained ankle or a little “oopsie.”

    (CNN) — A medical report by George Zimmerman’s family doctor shows the neighborhood watch volunteer was diagnosed with a fractured nose, two black eyes and two lacerations on the back of the head after his fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:15 pm

  156. Florida law on the use of deadly force:

    (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    Kevin Drum suggested “great bodily harm” is more than getting beat up. Florida case law seems to agree … to a point:

    Florida courts have generally defined “great bodily harm” as “great as distinguished from slight, trivial, minor or moderate harm, and as such does not include mere bruises as are likely to be inflicted in a simple assault and battery.” [Citations omitted.] In C.A.C., the Second District emphasized that the state “must prove more than that the victim suffered some harm.”

    FindLaw states that Florida law defines simple battery as unwanted touching, while aggravated battery requires a showing that “the defendant intended to cause serious bodily injury to the victim or that the defendant used a deadly weapon.” IMO Martin’s actions and Zimmerman’s injuries (which included a broken nose as well as bruises and lacerations) were more like aggravated battery than simple battery.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:17 pm

  157. E.PWJ, are you really a trained medical professional? It’s hard to believe given your cavalier attitude toward the beating GZ was getting at the hands of TM.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8epwlcUc2zU

    Roman Simakov and Sergey Kovalev are both uninjured at the start of the video. Kovalev wins with a TKO at approx. the 55 second mark. Simakov is unconscious within seconds and carried lifeless from the ring at the 1:37 mark.

    He has no visible injuries but he was killed in the ring. All in 43 seconds.

    Your MMA and bar fight scenarios are bogus. Even with a referee in the first instance or a bar owner who wants to keep his liquor license and possibly bouncers who are paid to stop fights you can go from uninjured to dead in less than a minute.

    So, really, I think I’ll go with the medical professional who testified in open court for the prosecution. Instead of some guy who claims to be a trained medical professional and immediately puts that claim into doubt with an amateur assessment based only on GZ’s visible injuries.

    When O’Mara asked Linzee Folgate, who had helped treat GZ the day after the fight, if in her medical opinion it’s possible the only reason GZ lived through the beating he took is because he stopped it she had a one word answer.

    “Yes.”

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:17 pm

  158. Didn’t the state produce a witness, some kind of EMT, who said that GZ’s self defense may have saved his life?

    May have = reasonable doubt.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:20 pm

  159. Yes, Mark, these are minor injuries. They were all injuries from which Mr Zimmerman was able to heal and recover without anything more than first aid.

    He was losing a fight. He might have suffered much more serious injuries had he not been armed, but we don’t know that, and that’s not the matter on which the law turns.

    Comment by The Dana who isn't a doctor (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:37 pm

  160. “But are people going to be killed for shoving someone, are we setting a new low bar for the use of deadly force?”

    Hurling metaphorical pebbles is a DEATH THREAT

    Comment by JD (8f669d) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:41 pm

  161. My mistake; Folgate gave a four word answer:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-day-5-analysis-video-states-own-witnesses-undercut-theory-of-guilt//#more

    O’Mara: “Medically speaking, would you say that whatever he did to stop the attack allowed him to survive it?” Folgate: “It could have, yes.”

    But I agree with you Dustin, although I don’t believe “reasonable doubt” is the proper term. A medical professional confirmed that reasonable person in GZ’s situation would have had a reasonable fear for their life. And that medical professional could make that determination from the calm of her clinic a day later. Unlike GZ who had to make a decision within seconds while enduring a violent assault.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:44 pm

  162. He had minor injuries, very minor, this is the problem.

    Not true.

    Comment by JD (8f669d) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:46 pm

  163. He might have suffered much more serious injuries had he not been armed, but we don’t know that

    But, Dana, what does your heart tell you? Do you think Lindzee Folgate’s heart was more in the right place, or less in the right place, based on her believing Zimmerman might not have survived without a gun?

    Is your compassion making you sense that a broken nose can be or shouldn’t be characterized as “minor”?

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 2:48 pm

  164. Yes, Mark, I’d say that a broken nose can be characterized as minor. He did not require medical treatment beyond first aid; that, in itself, is indicative that the injuries were minor.

    What does my heart tell me? It tells me absolutely nothing that is of legal value in this case, nor do I want anybody’s heart telling them how to decide this case; if the jurors use their hearts, they might well sympathize with poor, poor Trayvon Martin, and convict George Zimmerman; if they look solely at the facts, as they are being presented in court, at least so far, stating that Mr Zimmerman is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder in the second degree is unjustified.

    Comment by The incompassionate Dana (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:00 pm

  165. — A medical report by George Zimmerman’s family doctor shows the neighborhood watch volunteer was diagnosed with a fractured nose, two black eyes and two lacerations on the back of the head after his fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin.

    Not at all insignificant. Or minor. Breaking your nose is damaging. Just be ause there isnt tons of treatment for the injury doesn’t mean it is minor.

    Comment by JD (8f669d) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:01 pm

  166. The Dana,

    Is that what they taught you in medical school ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:04 pm

  167. if the jurors use their hearts, they might well sympathize with poor, poor Trayvon Martin

    That’s interesting, Dana, because my hunch that you’re struggling with misplaced compassion is borne out by your assuming that if people are oozing do-gooderness, then they’ll naturally boo-hoo more for Trayvon Martin than for George Zimmerman.

    By take is that if one is truly compassionate — or less likely to foist tears in the wrong direction — then he or she will be appalled by the ruthless, violent-prone nature of Martin, and, in turn, appalled that a guy living in a housing complex where robberies had become a growing problem — and was trying to assist his neighbors due to that — almost lost his life in the process.

    Misplaced compassion is turning the US into one, big Nidal-HasanLand.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:12 pm

  168. Steve, what I meant was that the state has to prove one (any) element of George’s self defense claim beyond a reasonable doubt.

    If the state’s own case shows that Zimmerman’s attack was one where his survival was at possible stake, I don’t think the stat can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn’t, to say the least.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:16 pm

  169. What does my heart tell me? It tells me absolutely nothing that is of legal value in this case

    BTW, the 2nd para in my previous post should start with “My take.” And your sentence above illustrates “The sensible Dana” in a battle with “The Touchy-Feely Dana.” All of us have such bouts with both our good and bad sides throughout life, and that’s why jurors and their verdicts can be such a crap shoot.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:17 pm

  170. Rather, the state has to disprove any element of the self defense claim, of course. And it also has to prove every element of murder (or a lesser included offense).

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:17 pm

  171. The Dana,

    I don’t know what experience you have in sports, but often times when an athlete’s adrenaline is running high, it distracts from the pain of a fresh injury. As a result, a player is unaware until the next day when he wakes up sore or with compromised mobility, that he may need to see a doctor. After an x-ray or MRI, it is discovered there’s a broken bone or a torn ligament.
    Similarly, Zimmerman was in the heat of battle, and when the paramedics arrived a few minutes later, he likely had adrenaline running high and a lot of other thoughts on his mind which elicited him to not recognize the degree of his injuries.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:26 pm

  172. JD

    A note from his doctor?

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:29 pm

  173. Mark wrote:

    By take is that if one is truly compassionate — or less likely to foist tears in the wrong direction — then he or she will be appalled by the ruthless, violent-prone nature of Martin, and, in turn, appalled that a guy living in a housing complex where robberies had become a growing problem — and was trying to assist his neighbors due to that — almost lost his life in the process.

    Trouble is that much of Mr Martin’s history won’t be made known to the jurors; unless the prosecution fouls up and opens the door — as they may have with the MMA bit from their own witness — whether Mr Martin was a thug or not isn’t something that the defense can raise. The prosecution is raising the case that Mr Zimmerman was some sort of out-of-control vigilante, and are trying to set up the daffy vigilante vs the absolutely good kid.

    Comment by The cold-hearted Dana (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:31 pm

  174. Steve,

    we’ll see who testifies – the state must be pretty confident that this was just a minor fist fight otherwise they wouldn’t have gone forward, IMO.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:32 pm

  175. Similarly, Zimmerman was in the heat of battle, and when the paramedics arrived a few minutes later, he likely had adrenaline running high and a lot of other thoughts on his mind which elicited him to not recognize the degree of his injuries.

    True.

    And like Steve said, would a reasonable person fear serious injury if his head was being smacked into the pavement while his nose was broken?

    I think 100% of the time the answer would be yes.

    You don’t even need to be actually touched to be able to defend yourself from a reasonable fear of serious harm or death.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:34 pm

  176. Mr Stone, I’ve played football and perhaps, just perhaps, I’ve gotten into a scrap or two in my life. The possibility exists that I’ve even lost a fight in my lifetime. Yeah, I know about adrenaline, and bad scrapes from the pavement and what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a punch.

    But unless you have some information to the contrary, Mr Zimmerman not only declined to go to the hospital after paramedics arrived, but received no treatment for anything significant in the following days.

    You see, I am not speculating on how serious his injuries were, but noting that, whatever they were, they were not serious enough that he or a physician saw the need for serious treatment. That’s the factual part, and that’s he only thing that can be presented to a jury.

    Comment by The Dana who might have been in a fight or two before (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:38 pm

  177. Dustin

    Deadly force -in a jury trial – probably needs a higher level of injury or threat than a guy embarrassed that he was sucker punched and may have lost his cool and then got scared…

    Now his life is ruined no matter what I or anyone else thinks – its a shame – and Trayvon’s parents who knew he had problems need to be the one’s who serve time..

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:39 pm

  178. the state must be pretty confident that this was just a minor fist fight otherwise they wouldn’t have gone forward, IMO.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013

    The state did initially not charge on this case because of a lack of evidence… then all the politicians got involved.

    I do worry that the jury will convict for manslaughter under a theory that he was the aggressor in the attack. It would be preposterous to say the state proved this, but I worry.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:39 pm

  179. Deadly force -in a jury trial – probably needs a higher level of injury or threat than a guy embarrassed that he was sucker punched and may have lost his cool and then got scared…

    I agree. The state will need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no higher level of threat.

    So far, the state’s case seems to be that Zimmerman may not have survived at all had he not defended himself, so there’s that.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:41 pm

  180. Trapper, Dana, M.D.,

    It is one thing to “look something up” in an Encylopedia as you often do, but it is another thing to be so confident in your assessment of the injuries of someone you’ve never examined.

    I’m in awe !

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:44 pm

  181. Deadly force -in a jury trial – probably needs a higher level of injury or threat than a guy embarrassed that he was sucker punched and may have lost his cool and then got scared…

    E.PWJ, what part about “lawful self-defense requires no evidence of injury” don’t you understand?

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:46 pm

  182. Also your speculation about how the guy was embarrassed and lost his cool has no basis in fact.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:47 pm

  183. steve57

    This is a jury trial, its what 6 women think, once they see the pictures – that’s usually it – a trickle of blood down the scalp vs a gaping hole in a bully’s chest

    All the wonderful pronouncements and phrases mean nothing, they are not trained attorneys and they are now the law.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:55 pm

  184. JD
    A note from his doctor?

    Do you need a note from a doctor to know a broken nose is a bad thing? Do you need a note from a doctor to know that bashing a skull against concrete is dangerous? Coming from EPWj who claimed a death threat over a metaphorical pebble being thrown is rich.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:00 pm

  185. There’s an excellent discussion of the use of deadly force at Legal Insurrection: “How much injury is necessary before the use of deadly force is justified?”

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:01 pm

  186. What is the “serious treatment” for a broken nose? What is the “serious treatment” for a minor concussion? WTF people?!?!?!?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:02 pm

  187. “lawful self-defense requires no evidence of injury”

    Steve beat me to it.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:04 pm

  188. #92-3, Beldar, Drudge has a link to ‘How Rachel Jeantel went from star witness to train wreck’ which takes you to a Yahoo News site containing Patrik Johnson’s 6/29/13 artice in the Christian Science Monitor Here’s an excerpt:

    The killing became a national story after Sanford police refused to charge Zimmerman with any crime, saying they had no evidence to counter his self-defense claim. Forty days later a Seminile County grand jury indicted Zimmerman on second degree murder charges.

    I checked the Christian Science Monitor and found a different construction, and no indication of an update:

    Forty days later prosecutors finally indicted Zimmerman on second degree murder charges.

    Comment by ropelight (18d2f0) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:10 pm

  189. Providently enough, there’s a new post up at L.I. on this very subject.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-update-how-much-injury-is-required-before-self-defense-is-justified/

    Zimmerman Update — How Much Injury Is Required Before Self-Defense is Justified?

    The short answer is “none.” But attorney Andrew Branca elaborates at length about why it’s ludicrous for the state to even being going down this road.

    A couple of short excerpts, centered on the jury instructions concerning self-defense:

    The very idea that the State is seeking to establish–that self-defense is conditional upon actually suffering serious injury–is, of course, ridiculous on its face. The purpose of the law of self-defense, particularly in the context of the use deadly defensive force, is to be able to protect yourself from an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm before that harm occurs, not to require that you actually experience death or grave bodily harm before you may act to protect yourself.

    …Florida Jury Instruction 3.6(f). Justifiable Use of Deadly Force. This, I’m afraid, is not brief reading, running to nearly 1,600 words (including all alternative language). The relevant portion for our purposes, however, is not too long:

    The use of deadly force is justifiable only if the defendant reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] while resisting:

    1. another’s attempt to murder [him] [her], or
    2. any attempt to commit (applicable felony) upon [him] [her], or
    3. any attempt to commit (applicable felony) upon or in any dwelling, residence, or vehicle occupied by [him] [her].

    A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent 1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another, or 2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.

    …The wonder in this instance is not in the statutes and the jury instruction, which are marvelously clear on this issue, but on what would lead State Prosecutor Bernard de la Rionda to believe that the considerable investment he is making in this theme of “Zimmerman’s minimal injury” can possibly yield a positive return for him.

    Two points.

    Andrew Blanca observes that while GZ’s injuries appear to be transitory that may not be the case. No one has evaluated him to determine if he suffered permanent damage from a closed head injury. In fact he reports that several state witnesses testified that GZ was complaining about symptoms such as dizziness. So to limit the discussion to external physical manifestations of trauma misses the point.

    Second, every cop will tell you that when they get into a fight they’re extremely aware that there’s always at least one gun present. They’re own. I wish I could find their accounts online but unfortunately I only ever read them in gun rags that I no longer subscribe to and threw away when I moved. But I’ve read more than one account of a cop attacked by some gang member fresh off the prison weight pile who wound up in the exact same position GZ did. On the ground, gangster on top, blows raining down. They’d feel the guy go for their gun as the punches start taking effect.

    Remember, GZ was afraid TM had found his gun and was going for it.

    Like GZ the cops’ physical injuries were minor. But unlike GZ when they shot the hood before they lost control of the gun they weren’t charged with a crime.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:14 pm

  190. 182. steve57

    This is a jury trial, its what 6 women think, once they see the pictures – that’s usually it – a trickle of blood down the scalp vs a gaping hole in a bully’s chest

    All the wonderful pronouncements and phrases mean nothing, they are not trained attorneys and they are now the law.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:55 pm

    Fortunately they won’t be reading your blog comments in which you display your purported medical and legal expertise, either.

    O’Mara and West are trained attorneys. The jury gets to see and hear them. Speaking of trained attorneys why don’t you follow the links over to Prof. Jacobson’s Legal Insurrection and read what they have to say about the state’s nonsense.

    DRJ, sorry I didn’t see you had provided the link.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:19 pm

  191. …they are not trained attorneys and they are now the law.

    I should have mentioned this is incorrect. The jury is not now the law. In a jury trial the judge determines the law. The jury determines the facts.

    This is why what the state is doing is nuts. The judge will instruct jury exactly what the law of self-defense in Florida is before they deliberate. And those instructions say GZ didn’t have to have a scratch on him before lawfully defending himself.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:28 pm

  192. It’s more clear to say in a jury trial the judge is the trier of law.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:30 pm

  193. As evidence all they can really say about this woman is phone records show she had several conversations with Martin

    Not even that; the phone wasn’t hers, and while she had access to it, so did several other people.

    Comment by Milhouse (a55903) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:33 pm

  194. You see, I am not speculating on how serious his injuries were, but noting that, whatever they were, they were not serious enough that he or a physician saw the need for serious treatment. That’s the factual part, and that’s he only thing that can be presented to a jury.

    Comment by The Dana who might have been in a fight or two before (af9ec3) — 6/30/2013 @ 3:38 pm

    Did you not hear the testimony of the paramedics that said they recommended that Zimmerman be examined at a hospital?

    When I was trained as an EMT/Paramedic, we were taught that all forcible injuries to the head were to be treated as serious. This included both open head and closed head injuries. And we were always to recommend that the injured person seek immediate treatment at a hospital, as a head injury could prove fatal with hemorrhaging in the brain.

    One case in point. Treated person for open head injury to the forehead area. Patient had small laceration with minor bleeding and swelling caused by head striking windshield at impact. All Vitals normal at time of exam, bandaged wound and recommended transport to nearest hospital for further evaluation. Patient refused and said he would see his Dr next day.

    Later on that same PM, received call from person’s wife requesting paramedics. Upon arrival, found patient that had earlier refused transport in an unconscious state with failing vital signs. Transported patient to nearest hospital with trauma center. Tests on patient revealed a Epidural hematoma from which patient lapsed into a coma and died. Any injury to the head should be treated as serious.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/18/brain.injury/

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/intracranial-hematoma/DS00330/DSECTION=causes

    So lets stop the conjecture that these were only minor injuries, please. Besides which, Florida law states that you don’t have to suffer injury, you only have to reasonably believe you are about to suffer great bodily harm or death. And with any injury to the head, it can be either fatal or disabling. Quote: ” A serious injury may have occurred even if there’s no open wound, bruise or other outward sign of damage.”

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:42 pm

  195. Steve

    The law is determined by the verdict rendered….

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:44 pm

  196. And if EPWJ claims to have medical training, and states that the head injury was minor, then he is lying about having any medical training whatsoever. Head injuries are always treated as possibly life threatening by First Responders. Only testing which cannot be done in the field can determine whether the head injury is minor or major.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:46 pm

  197. Trouble is that much of Mr Martin’s history won’t be made known to the jurors

    Dana, from a purely legal standpoint — and analyzing things in the context of the system being rigged against the defense — I can see why you think the trial, as observed through the eyes of the jurors — has to be characterized in a Nidal-Hasan-ized (or OJ-juror-ized) manner. But I was curious about what was making you tick, what was your own personal gut reaction towards Martin and Zimmerman.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:48 pm

  198. lawful self defense is defined by the jury’s verdict….

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:51 pm

  199. lawful self defense is defined by the jury’s verdict….

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:51 pm

    No, lawful self defense is defined by the law.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:53 pm

  200. lawful self defense is defined by the jury’s verdict….

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:51 pm

    Courtrooms in Tennessee, Texas, Saudi Arabia, Indiana, New York, Jakarta, and throughout the world beg you to stay away.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:53 pm

  201. The jury is the Trier of Fact, they are not the Trier of Law.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:55 pm

  202. Look for the defense to immediately request a directed verdict of not guilty when the State rests its case.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 4:58 pm

  203. Interesting this where the conversation has evolved into;

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-update-how-much-injury-is-required-before-self-defense-is-justified//#more

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:02 pm

  204. EPWJ, not for the first time, you are making up stuff and pretending that you are an expert where you clearly are not.

    The relevance of Zimmerman’s injuries are that they are consistent with his story about the circumstances he was in when he shot Martin. Their severity is not an element of self-defense, only his reasonable fear that he could sustain serious or fatal injuries going forward.

    Its always a mystery why you bring your clown show around.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:07 pm

  205. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:07 pm

    Just applied an algorithm and analyzed EPWJ’s handle. It returned BOZO as an applicable alternative.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:11 pm

  206. nzrcisco

    I think Zimmerman who killed someone, is going to have to convince 6 people he didn’t start the fight and then murdered that kid.

    I don’t think this is going to be a fair trial, and I think despite the eyewitness, Zimmerman’s going to do some time. To me Trayvons parents were the whole cause of this, sticking this animal in the wrong place and lying about him being a peaceful boy – which he was not

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:12 pm

  207. I think Zimmerman who killed someone, is going to have to convince 6 people he didn’t start the fight and then murdered that kid.

    Wrong again. Where do you come up with the idea? GZ is presumed guilty unless he convinces a jury he didn’t commit 2nd degree murder?

    To overcome GZ’s claim of self-defense the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Zimmerman started the fight and then murdered that kid.

    So far the state is proving GZ’s version of events. So GZ won’t have to prove much of anything.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:17 pm

  208. Their only eye witness, backs up Zimmerman, other’s overheard some details, but their recollections have been at odds with their previous account, Surdyka and Manaloo, and their ‘star witness’ is downright incoherent, ‘it’s just a flesh wound;

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:21 pm

  209. 37 So.2d 277, 279 (Fla. 4th Dist. 2006), the Fourth District Court of Appeal in Florida ruled that once a defendant in a criminal case has introduced proof that he acted in self-defense the jury is entitled to consider the defense, and the jury may not convict the defendant unless it finds beyond a reasonable that he did not act in self-defense.

    The Fourth District Court of Appeal stated:

    But, with these additional facts, did he also incur a burden of proof identical to the State’s? That is, did he have to prove the additional facts for self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt? Or was he instead bound by some lesser standard-say, the greater weight of the evidence? Indeed, how about something even less onerous than that? Was he merely obligated to lay the additional facts before the jury, without any burden as to the strength of their probative value – other than they might be true? The answer is this. No, he did not have to prove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. He did not have to prove even that his additional facts were more likely true than not. The real nature of his burden concerning his defense of justification is that his evidence of additional facts need merely leave the jury with a reasonable doubt about whether he was justified in using deadly force.

    Why might this be? “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:23 pm

  210. There is no evidence introduced by the prosecution to date that Zimmerman started the fight.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:27 pm

  211. 6 ladies are now the standard

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:29 pm

  212. Six women who promised they would do their best to uphold the law, and the law is that if there is reasonable doubt that George did not defend himself, he is acquitted. In other words, George doesn’t have to prove a thing.

    These women would have unanimously vote that the state proved beyond reasonable doubt that George did not defend himself, and also that the state proved every element of the charge (for murder this includes a depraved mind).

    It is certainly possible they will do this. People do get lynched by kangaroo courts. I haven’t met the jurors so I can’t say. The media has done its best to send justice off the tracks on this one.

    Comment by Dustin (8b7882) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:36 pm

  213. dustin

    yes he does, he killed someone and is on trial for his freedom, shouldn’t be, but he is

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  214. Oh good Lord. Here I thought I suffered through a brutal afternoon at Comiskey Park– but this thread is unbelievably brutal to read.

    Comment by elissa (f237b6) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  215. 210. 6 ladies are now the standard

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:29 pm

    One lady is now the standard. The state needs all six to convict. The defense only needs one to have reasonable doubt.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:45 pm

  216. good point steve57

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:47 pm

  217. 6 ladies are now the standard

    What is the standard for you to post nonsense?

    I think Zimmerman who killed someone, is going to have to convince 6 people he didn’t start the fight and then murdered that kid.

    Let us ignore the abysmal construction, and question the assertion that GZ started the fight and murdered TM

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 5:51 pm

  218. if Georgie Z gets convicted will Pam Biondi openly touch herself or just smile softly and save that for laters?

    if only I’d paid more better attention in fascist whore class

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:01 pm

  219. Zimmerman killed someone – that part isn’t in doubt – so the point comes down to who are we to believe the guy who pulled the trigger – or the state?

    Its nothing more than that – as I said before he shouldn’t be on trial but he is – I cant change that

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:22 pm

  220. and its waaay past hf’s time to depart the blog forever…

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:24 pm

  221. It’s waaay past who’s time to depart this blog forever?

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:26 pm

  222. He deserved it he proably was going to rob someone

    Comment by joe (4c97f1) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:32 pm

  223. Nice job zimmerman

    Comment by joe (4c97f1) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:34 pm

  224. Zimmerman killed someone – that part isn’t in doubt

    Other than inside your head, nobody is questioning that. The question is whether or not it was murder or self defense. You can’t even get the essentials of this correct.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:35 pm

  225. steve57

    if you are supporting those kind of comments then, that’s all we really need to know about your character, or confirms what we already did know, especially when you made false and defamatory comments about a dead naval aviator who passed away in the line of duty

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:42 pm

  226. ZOMFG here comes the Kray Kray

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:44 pm

  227. Well he was wrong about Okeefe, about Ramos and Campean, who were ‘hung out to dry’ in order to protect that DEA snitch, his batting average is right up there with the Marlins.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:49 pm

  228. i apologize for my massageyness sentiments

    but not really i got my fingers crossed

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:00 pm

  229. EPWJ, ooooooo, you want to bring up past behavior on blog? I’m soooo ready for that. Bring it.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:02 pm

  230. Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

    Comment by elissa (f237b6) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:04 pm

  231. Branca is one of the leading self defense experts, elissa, that’s why I brought his link up, but squirrels have to wander I guess?

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:06 pm

  232. Let’s have a jooooooooooooo counting contest.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:11 pm

  233. ok im in. http://www.superhitops.com/images/IMG_20130625_123530.jpg

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:19 pm

  234. that puts hope in perspective is what that does

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/30/2013 @ 7:23 pm

  235. I knew that would send EPWJ away for more liquid courage.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/30/2013 @ 8:00 pm

  236. 224. steve57

    if you are supporting those kind of comments then, that’s all we really need to know about your character, or confirms what we already did know, especially when you made false and defamatory comments about a dead naval aviator who passed away in the line of duty

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:42 pm

    E.PWJ’s comment brought to you by they Psychotic Ex-Girlfriend’s School of Logic and Argumentation.

    Rule No. 3: When you don’t understand the present, dredge up your twisted version of the past and start yelling about that.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/30/2013 @ 8:03 pm

  237. Recall Obama himself saying if he had a son he’d have looked like Trayvon,

    We need a picture of Martin in all of his “gangsta” glory to go with the quote.

    Of course, if one put a picture of a younger Obama smoking marijuana with a picture of a gangsta Martin occupied likewise, one could probably make a comment about Obama’s claim being correct as there is a resemblance.

    But I don’t think that is what he intended to communicate, and AG Holder might be investigating you.

    And by the time you know the brain-case hit the concrete one too many times it is too late to do anything about it.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/30/2013 @ 8:05 pm

  238. There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone.

    and its waaay past hf’s time to depart the blog forever…

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 6/30/2013 @ 6:24 pm

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/30/2013 @ 9:20 pm

  239. Not that it matters, but his mother was Peruvian, and his grandfather was black,

    No, that was his great-grandfather, and he was probably only part-black himself, so Zimmerman is at most 1/8 black and probably less. The only difference this makes, of course, is with reference to 0bama’s claim that any son he might have had would be likely to be like Martin. I’m not sure whether he meant a thug and burglar.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 6/30/2013 @ 10:05 pm

  240. hf

    the batteries started to run low the first day of state testimony and then the whole thing dried up like as if caught in a haboob

    Comment by steveg (794291) — 6/30/2013 @ 10:11 pm

  241. 2) Here’s a moral reasoning problem I’m curious about. Let’s say you were a juror on this trial, and having listened in good faith, and impartially, to all the evidence, you concluded immediately that the whole thing was nonsense and voted to acquit. You discover in the first five minutes in the jury room that all the other jurors feel the same way: in other words, you’ve got a solid Not Guilty verdict within five minutes.

    Given it’s such a political powder keg, would you feel a moral obligation to sit and play cards in the jury room for a day or two to give the impression that you were really pondering a thing which needs no pondering, so as not to give offense and possibly help prevent civil unrest;

    No.

    Let me explain a bit further, though: Last year I was on a civil jury, and we had something like the situation you described. After four weeks of testimony, we walked into the jury room and it was clear that we all thought the plaintiff had no case. But I thought we owed it to the plaintiff to go over the strongest bits of evidence they had given, and see if there wasn’t something we were missing, something that would convince us there was a case to consider. In particular in the plaintiff’s lawyer’s closing she had asked us to call for specific pages in the record and examine them, claiming that these would convince us of the justice of her client’s case, so we dutifully called for them and examined them, although we were pretty sure we remembered them and didn’t find them convincing the first time.

    So what could have been five minutes’ deliberation turned into three hours, after which we were satisfied that we’d been fair to the plaintiff and there simply wasn’t any there there. We felt sorry for her, but what happened to her wasn’t the defendants’ fault; it was an act of God, so let her sue Him. Then we returned a verdict for the defendants with a clear conscience.

    But in a criminal trial the standard is reasonable doubt, so if we started out convinced of the defendants’ actual innocence I don’t see how any amount of examining the evidence could change things so dramatically that we’d all become convinced not only that he might be guilty, or was probably guilty, but that he was certainly guilty. There’d be no point. Still, if there were specific points the prosecutor had asked us to review I’d probably be for reviewing them, just in case, in order to be fair. But as soon as it became clear that we were never going to move from actually innocent to guilty beyond reasonable doubt, I’d be for reporting immediately, and the optics would not be any of our business.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 6/30/2013 @ 10:20 pm

  242. Yes, the judge “can” dismiss the case on directed verdict, but the standard she must apply is the evidence viewed in the light most favorable to the prosecution. What is your judgment?

    So far, the case is crying out for a directed verdict. The prosecution has not presented any evidence that would support its case, let alone anything that could possibly dismiss any reasonable doubt about a conviction. Unless next week is a whole lot better for the prosecution, a directed verdict would be legally required. But I don’t expect the judge to do so anyway, because she’s clearly biased to the prosecution.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 6/30/2013 @ 10:23 pm

  243. I don’t think the judge can give a directed verdict, even if her tendencies up to this point hadn’t been pro-state. The discredited witness Jeantel’s testimony is (weak) evidence that George was the aggressor in the fight he defended himself from, so this needs to go to the jury in my opinion.

    I don’t think so, for two reasons: 1) She is so thoroughly discredited that no properly instructed jury could possibly fail to have at least reasonable doubt about her veracity. 2) What exactly did she say that actually counts as evidence on which a conviction could be based? To the best of my recollection, even if we were to believe every word she said (taking the latest version in cases where she contradicted herself) there’s nothing that’s inconsistent with the defense’s story.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 6/30/2013 @ 10:36 pm

  244. I don’t believe that the persecution can present any evidence at this point to overcome the reasonable doubt that has already been raised. Unless they can present a video with audio that shows Z walking up to Trayvon, shouting “N@gger, you gonna die!” while simultaneously pulling out his pistol and shooting him, then rubbing T’s knees with grass, his own back with grass, and then slamming his own head and nose down on the cement sidewalk and causing his own injuries.

    Milhous is right, if ever a case screamed for a ‘directed verdict’ of not guilty, this is it. If she doesn’t grant it, when he is found not guilty, his attorney should immediately file a complaint with the State Bar on the judge and the State’s Persecutors, especially Angela Corey, that decided to move this case forward. Anyone that had anything to do with pressing this case past the investigation stage needs to be disbarred and prevented from practicing lawlessness anymore.

    It was done to try and quell racial tensions, and had absolutely nothing to do with prosecution that the sum total of evidence showed guilt on the part of the defendant. It was politically motivated from the beginning in an attempt of what appears to be a public lynching. Corey bypassed the Grand Jury process because she knew that there was no way she could win an indictment, and she should be held personally and legally responsible for her reckless and intentional acts of malfeasance.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:01 am

  245. I think that there are some inconsistencies in GZ’s testimony that will be problematic for the defense. Here are a couple: 1) GZ says that TM was hitting his head against the concrete yet in the photo of the body, the head is facing away from the concrete, 2) During the re-enactment GZ told the investigator that after he fired, he thought TM could still be alive, he found himself straddling the body and pushed the arms outward to restrain TM’s hands, yet the photo of the body and witnesses at the scene including GZ said TM’s arms
    and hands were under the body, 3) GZ said that TM saw his gun and reach for it, yet every witness said that it was so dark that they could not see much of anything and the weather was rainy or misty, 4) In one interview GZ said that TM jumped out of the bushes, yet when he did the re-enactment, he said that TM was walking down the street approaching him. Maybe the inconsistencies in GZ’s reporting of the facts don’t mean anything but when added to the reports of one of his former employers who GZ formerly provided security for at parties who said that GZ was a generally nice person but all of a sudden he could turn into a monster without warning, I would be hesitant to put him back on the street. Maybe that’s just me.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:08 am

  246. I think that there are some inconsistencies in GZ’s testimony that will be problematic for the defense.
    Maybe that’s just me.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:08 am

    What testimony? He hasn’t testified yet. And no, it’s not just you, there are other nuts that refuse to acknowledge the exculpatory testimony that has already raised reasonable doubt of Z’s guilt.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:17 am

  247. What testimony? He hasn’t testified yet. And no, it’s not just you, there are other nuts that refuse to acknowledge the exculpatory testimony that has already raised reasonable doubt of Z’s guilt.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:17 am

    You are right. He has not testified. He has given sworn statements. He may be found guilty or he may
    be found not guilty. The jury will decide and maybe those on the jury are nuts like me.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:25 am

  248. The jury will decide and maybe those on the jury are nuts like me.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:25 am

    If you think that the prosecution is going to introduce his statements where he establishes his basis for self defense, which they cannot cross examine, then you are crazy. And I highly doubt that all 6 jurors are going to disregard all of the testimony from most of the witnesses that already have establish the element of reasonable doubt. They would truly have to be batsh!t crazy. If the judge is wise, it may not be decided by a jury, but by a directed verdict of not guilty.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:38 am

  249. If you think that the prosecution is going to introduce his statements where he establishes his basis for self defense, which they cannot cross examine, then you are crazy. And I highly doubt that all 6 jurors are going to disregard all of the testimony from most of the witnesses that already have establish the element of reasonable doubt. They would truly have to be batsh!t crazy. If the judge is wise, it may not be decided by a jury, but by a directed verdict of not guilty.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:38 am

    What about the inconsistencies I listed? Address them specifically.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:06 am

  250. If that jury concludes that the screaming is TM begging for his life and that GZ savored it by letting him beg for his life for 45 seconds, it is over. That is what the “nuts” and “batshit crazy” people hear. A kid begging for his life and a murderer who does not have the decency to pull the trigger right away but drags it out to hear him scream.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:27 am

  251. Milhouse

    F you shoot someone, and you have minor injuries, after you are on record with the police that you are either engaging them or continuing to follow them a kind of passive confrontation, then you have to prove (not the state) to a JURY that you didn’t murder the kid/animal.

    He shouldn’t have been charged, but this animals parents and supporters and the MFM decided it should be so – so there it is.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:14 am

  252. Can anyone be so consistently wrong as BOZO? ^^^^

    Comment by peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:25 am

  253. What about the inconsistencies I listed? Address them specifically.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:06 am

    Objection; Assumes facts not in evidence. No need to address them as they most likely won’t be submitted as evidence. Maybe better if you will address the exculpatory testimony of Mr. Good.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (127915) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:29 am

  254. Remind us again how Scuzzeyfavor was the true conservative in the race for the senate.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:30 am

  255. Meanwhile back at the ranch;

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/libyan-documents-egyptians-including-dr-morsi-linked-to-benghazi-attacks/

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:41 am

  256. Objection; Assumes facts not in evidence. No need to address them as they most likely won’t be submitted as evidence. Maybe better if you will address the exculpatory testimony of Mr. Good.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (127915) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:29 am

    The only thing that Mr.Good was 100% certain of was what he did not see. — Good says he went outside and saw the two people rolling around in the dirt. He hears the person on the bottom saying help me (maybe once, maybe twice, maybe three times). He says he told them to stop and they didn’t. So he told them he is calling 911 and went upstairs. All of this took place in 3-10 seconds. He calls 911 and tells the operator that he just heard a shot and O my God there is a dead black man downstairs. Do you believe that story. Does it have the ring of truth. I wonder what color shirt Mr. Good was wearing. Address the inconsistencies.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:40 am

  257. …… then you have to prove (not the state) to a JURY that you didn’t murder the kid/animal.

    #facepalm

    Will – your listed in inconsistencies border on irrelevant,but …

    1) whether or not Trayvon struck GZ’s head against the concrete has no relevancy to the position of Trayvon’s head after his death.
    2) there is a period of time that would have passed between the time of the shooting and when a photo was taken. The concept of a participant in an event not remembering the specifics and details of a meaningless action is unremarkable.
    3) none of the witnesses were as close to the event as GZ. There is no inconsistency in him being able to see something that a witness could not.
    4) I am doing my best to try to not mock you.

    It would be difficult for a person to come up with less important and less relevant inconsistencies.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:45 am

  258. IMOH He didn’t have to shoot him but instead he let him cry, beg, and yelp for 45 seconds. Then he pulled the trigger. That is in evidence and the prosecution made sure the jury heard it twice.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:48 am

  259. Your description of Good’s testimony is inconsistent with his actual testimony, Will. Address the inconsistencies. Because that was about as disingenuous as can be, similar to the commenter who claimed Good’s testimony was good for the prosecution.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:48 am

  260. IMOH He didn’t have to shoot him but instead he let him cry, beg, and yelp for 45 seconds. Then he pulled the trigger. That is in evidence and the prosecution made sure the jury heard it twice.

    Who made who cry, beg, and yelp for 45 seconds. Can you point us to that evidence? Who testified to it? What evidence was provided?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:51 am

  261. Will – your listed in inconsistencies border on irrelevant,but …

    1) whether or not Trayvon struck GZ’s head against the concrete has no relevancy to the position of Trayvon’s head after his death.
    2) there is a period of time that would have passed between the time of the shooting and when a photo was taken. The concept of a participant in an event not remembering the specifics and details of a meaningless action is unremarkable.
    3) none of the witnesses were as close to the event as GZ. There is no inconsistency in him being able to see something that a witness could not.
    4) I am doing my best to try to not mock you.

    It would be difficult for a person to come up with less important and less relevant inconsistencies.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:45 am

    Let us see who is mocked and what is unimportant when the lead detective testifies today.

    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:53 am

  262. I tried taking you seriously, Will, but I can’t anymore. Your claimed “inconsistencies” are patently silly, and meaningless. You dishonestly and Inaccurately describe testimony. And your response is then, just wait for what is coming today.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:56 am

  263. Will

    Trayvon, sucker punched the guy and threw him to the ground.

    Had he not done that – Trayvon would be alive today.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 7/1/2013 @ 5:26 am

  264. however the republicans in the house are drafting their own bill taking out any path to citizenship or legalization and converting those to some kind of extended work visa like I have had overseas – 3, 5, 10 year work visas.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1cedce) — 7/1/2013 @ 5:41 am

  265. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:41 am

    Always follow links from narciso

    So, there is actually evidence not only linking Egyptians to the Benghazi attack, but audio recording of “Don’t shoot, don’t shoot, we were sent by Morsi”??
    Consistent with the idea of a planned capture to trade for the Blind Sheik, as some had proposed.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/1/2013 @ 5:42 am

  266. Let us see who is mocked and what is unimportant when the lead detective testifies today.
    Comment by Will (57d217) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:53 am

    Actually, no matter what happens today at least some of your attempts at reasoned defense are laughable.
    Because people at a distance couldn’t see clearly therefore there was no way Martin could not have seen Z’s gun close up, or that Z did not have reason to fear Martin seeing his gun?
    Really, you must do better than that.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/1/2013 @ 5:46 am

  267. Serino, was the one who leaked the altered police station tape to ABC,

    Comment by narciso (342f74) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:08 am

  268. I am curious about the burglary rate at Twin Lakes since February 26, 2012. Not that we’re likely to get any reliable information, the only crimes the police report honestly are car thefts.

    For the children (not) the story of Tiny Hippo. Language, violence.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:09 am

  269. The one who was Gutman’s source, for many of the dubious assertions, aired early in the investigation

    Comment by narciso (342f74) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:10 am

  270. 263. Yes, Walid Shoebat translated the video the week following Benghazi.

    Marines entering Aqaba, Russkies evacuating Tartus(naval facility!), Turkey shuts down US traffic to Aleppo, Egyptian rebels give Mursi a day to exit and Military’s response unknown, Iran setting up logistics depot at Port Sudan.

    This is the fight we’ve been waiting for and guess what, we’re on the losing side!

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:38 am

  271. …added to the reports of one of his former employers who GZ formerly provided security for at parties who said that GZ was a generally nice person but all of a sudden he could turn into a monster without warning, I would be hesitant to put him back on the street. Maybe that’s just me.

    I’ll grant you raising the possible nature of Zimmerman in other circumstances to understand what makes him tick, but you had better do the same thing for Martin. Even more so since the latter displayed his disreputable qualities happily and proudly on the internet and also before the eyes of his buddies.

    But since most every person out there can be a jerk or asshole on occasion, I don’t know if Zimmerman is necessarily any different from you or me, or anyone else. However, I’d be interested in his politics, since I’m far more wary of people who fall for the idea that compassion for compassion’s sake (and is very likely to misapply feelings of compassion) makes one a wonderful human being.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:50 am

  272. compassion for compassion’s sake

    Is there any other kind?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:56 am

  273. we’re on the losing side!

    Obama is so lacking in basic common sense that he’ll do to a Mohamed Morsi in Egypt what he did to Trayvon Martin in Florida. Or he’ll do to the opponents of Syria’s current government what he did to Henry Louis Gates in Cambridge a few years ago.

    Obama is the face of the idiocy and lunacy of modern-day liberalism.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 7/1/2013 @ 6:58 am

  274. 271. Every crisis is an opportunity.

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/06/30/west-goes-nuclear-on-obama-the-time-draws-near-to-teach-this-usurper-and-charlatan-the-lesson-our-forefathers-taught-king-george-iii/

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:07 am

  275. Will’s point 2 is ignorant, as anyone who reads Legal Insurrection knows. Martin was still alive when the police arrived, and would naturally have moved his hands under his face-down body once Zimmerman released them, either consciously (to try to stop the bleeding from his chest wound) or unconsciously (as a step towards the fetal position that the dying tend to assume). This was pointed out by the commentators at LI. Anyone who comments on this case without reading LI first is committing blogular malpractice.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:05 am

  276. Will, at best you’ve confused yourself hilariously. The photo of the body is pretty meaningless since TM was worked on by paramedics before the photo.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:28 am

  277. CNN aired an enlarged photo of a George Zimmerman document with his social security number unredacted which was used by the prosecution. It is now gleefully being passed around the world. I hope his lawyers can take a few minutes away from their trial to sue CNN. I assumed the prosecutors have some cloear legal obligation to handle this type of information properly as well. Oh wait.

    Comment by elissa (ff35cf) — 7/1/2013 @ 11:12 am

  278. gary gulrud, West seems to have gone way to far. 0bama may be a charlatan, but he’s not a usurper. He was elected in conformance with the constitution, and until 20-Jan-2017 he is the legitimate president.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/1/2013 @ 11:53 am

  279. Consider this. John Good testified that he stood on his lighted patio and witnessed a lighter skinned man wearing a light/white or red shirt on the bottom and a darker skinned man wearing dark or black clothing on top and straddling the man on the bottom throwing punches downward MMA style. No. 1 Mr. Good was standing in the light and his eyes would automatically have been adapted/accommodated to the light of his patio. He was looking 17 feet out into the darkness and it was raining. The patio light did not extend out to the area where the two men were fighting. It is a physical impossibility that Mr. Good could have stood in his patio lighting and seen the colors of the clothing anyone was wearing 17 feet out in the darkness. That defies the physiological capability of the human eye. Why didn’t the prosecution call him on it? It’s just a very fundamental fact that everyone knows if they just think about it.

    Comment by Madeline Brashear (49bbcb) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:52 pm

  280. In addition , Zimmerman was the one who had intensive MMA training three times a week and boxing training. It stands to reason that Zimmerman was the man on top.

    Comment by Madeline Brashear (49bbcb) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:54 pm

  281. You’re making sh*t up there, Madeline. It’s quite possible for the eye to distinguish colors a short way into darkness. 17 feet is not very far, roughly the length of a car.

    If you insist on claiming that it’s physically impossible for the human eye to discern colors as Mr. Good said he did, then please provide us with a link showing evidence for your claim.

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (7c7e89) — 7/1/2013 @ 1:55 pm

  282. Brashear, it does not stand to reason at all. Zimmerman was the one who suffered the injuries from being beaten, not Martin.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:05 pm

  283. Several of the witnesses in this trial, especially police officers, have followed this pattern:

    1. Prosecution calls witness, witness testifies some stuff that is perhaps weakly supportive of the prosecution’s case, maybe.

    2. Defense attorneys, to the relief of the witness, cross examine and makes it obvious the testimony fully supports the defense theory (which is why the police didn’t lay charges until they were pressured).

    3. Prosecutor tries effectively to tear down own witness on redirect.

    What a disaster!

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:11 pm

  284. In addition , Zimmerman was the one who had intensive MMA training three times a week and boxing training. It stands to reason that Zimmerman was the man on top.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever been in a fight before, Madeline, but even if a man is trained, he can absolutely be dominated by a sudden act of determined aggression and end up on the bottom.

    That, and also that’s what the testimony indicates happened, so your point is absurd. Your standard of proof is kind of on the low side for anything that suits your biases.

    You make it expressly clear your biases are the only proof you require.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:22 pm

  285. Madeline thinks FIRE CANNOT MELT STEEL GOOGLE IT !!

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:24 pm

  286. lol

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:24 pm

  287. In reply to the comment and question above from my friend ropelight (#187 — 6/30/2013 @ 4:10 pm) regarding whether the charges against Zimmerman were ever tested before a grand jury through the normal indictment process:

    My recollection from this past spring was that the state attorney’s office had used a provision in FL law that permitted them to sidestep a grand jury, based on contemporaneous news accounts like this one from USA Today. There are lots of similar accounts from this same April 9 time period discussing the decision to skip the previously-announced grand jury presentation, and a good-sized smattering of op-ed punditry both questioning and defending the prosecution’s choice, especially since they’d previously said the case would be presented to a grand jury.

    Now, I suppose the state attorney’s office could have gone BACK to a grand jury for an indictment sometime after April 9th. But I’ve done perhaps two or three minutes’ of Googling looking for a copy of a grand jury indictment against Zimmerman, and I haven’t yet found one. Perhaps it’s there and I just missed it.

    Be careful, though, because a lot of people — including sometimes crime beat reporters for MSM publications — don’t always distinguish between the various ways, under various states’ and federal criminal procedural laws, regarding grand jury indictments, prosecutor informations, presentments, and other forms of criminal charging. It would not surprise me if the Christian Science Monitor, for example, said that Zimmerman was “indicted” when they really meant he was charged by prosecutors (not by a grand jury responding to a case presented by prosecutors).

    Note well: I’m not a criminal lawyer nor licensed in FL. Our esteemed host, Patterico, may know more, or others here or elsewhere might. I vaguely recall Patterico, and perhaps his frequent commenter (and former federal assistant U.S. atty) “WLS Shipwrecked,” explaining before the difference between these sorts of things, and doing so far better than I can.

    In fact, the former prosecutors I know were always very appreciative of the opportunity to present the facts of a potential self-defense or other homicide justification to a grand jury — whose members are quite often permitted to ask questions, unlike jurors in a trial on the merits (a/k/a petit jury).

    Other advocates pay private consulting firms huge fortunes to set up mock trials to war-game and predict jury trial outcomes, but the prosecution gets this chance to preview and polish its case with citizens who’ve taken a very real oath.

    There’s also a long tradition of elected prosecutors benefiting politically when grand juries take those prosecutors “off the hook” — via a no-bill, a refusal to indict — on those cases where a self-defense or other justification defense seems particularly strong, but is particularly controversial for some reason. Like this case was.

    My inference is that the prosecution team skipped the grand jury because they feared they couldn’t get an indictment if they did, and they desperately hoped that somehow things would get better: The prosecution team was hoping for new evidence, hoping for some key defense witness (maybe even the defendant) to self-destruct on the witness stand, or maybe for some juror to decide that he hates the defense lawyer because of a knock-knock joke.

    Comment by Beldar (f38a66) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:27 pm

  288. They just cleared the jury because among other things, the defense co-counsel asked the initial lead-investigator this question and got this answer:

    “Evidence you had all fit into self-defense theory, right?” Serino: “Yes.”

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:27 pm

  289. Oh man. This is actually the funniest trial I’ve ever seen.

    And yes, I’ve thought Zimmerman was being terribly railroaded for over a year, and this is a total waste of the police’ and witnesses’ time, and that’s outrageous.

    However, the trial itself is a blast of government self-parody.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:29 pm

  290. lol Serino is now calling the defendant “George”.

    The police’s thoughts about this case are pretty blatant if you read between the lines.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:32 pm

  291. Is the prosecution going to move for a dismissal? Can they do that? Would jeopardy attach if they did and it was granted?

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  292. Is the prosecution going to move for a dismissal? Can they do that? Would jeopardy attach if they did and it was granted?

    My (layman’s) impression is: No. Yes. Yes.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:44 pm

  293. Observation: watching the livestream at Mediaite, they’re still using the Trayvon Martin hoodie photo from 3 years earlier as their thumbnail.

    How manipulative. Why don’t the media just use baby photos from anyone their sympathetic to? Go all out with it!

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:48 pm

  294. Wow, I don’t even know how to summarize the last five minutes of Serino’s testimony just now, before recess. You’ve got to find it on YouTube later tonight if you haven’t seen it.

    But yeah, one more strong witness for the defense.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 2:59 pm

  295. If I am standing in the light of my patio, looking out 17 feet away, maybe the light from my patio somehow escapes from its constraints and heads off out into the darkness rather than just confining itself to directly entering only my eyes.
    Of course Mr. Good could have turned around and stared intently into his patio light (so as to better see the altercation occurring) but did not.

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:05 pm

  296. Mark wrote, well above:

    Dana, from a purely legal standpoint — and analyzing things in the context of the system being rigged against the defense — I can see why you think the trial, as observed through the eyes of the jurors — has to be characterized in a Nidal-Hasan-ized (or OJ-juror-ized) manner. But I was curious about what was making you tick, what was your own personal gut reaction towards Martin and Zimmerman.

    My gut reaction is that I hope Mr Zimmerman is acquitted. This was a case on which the local law enforcement officials decided that there was no real case, but it was pushed by the left and became a political persecution. This is the Duke lacrosse team rape case, all over again. On that basis alone, I hope Mr Zimmerman is cleared.

    As for the case itself, it seems as though the prosecutors have a poor one; they certainly aren’t presenting a good case at any rate. I would say, at least thus far, that Mr Zimmerman ought to be acquitted even on a preponderance of the evidence basis, and the law requires the harder guilty beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

    That said, I don’t think that Mr Zimmerman is some kind of innocent victim; he was playing cop when the real cops told him to back off, and that was the genesis of the confrontation. If he had backed off when he was told to back off, none of this would have happened. He’s in a situation of his own making, which just might be the crux of the matter if he is brought up on federal charges for violating Mr Martin’s civil rights.

    As for the debate concerning Mr Zimmerman’s injuries, I am not speculating at all, where others are. It is possible that the blows to the head could have resulted in serious injuries, but the facts are that he was not treated for such, and recovered pretty much on his own; that says, in itself, that the injuries were not, in fact, serious, and if the question of how serious his injuries were is raised, it will be the documented fact that he required only a bit of first aid which will be the germane evidence.

    Sorry that it took so long to answer, but I can’t surf Patterico all day long at work.

    Comment by The Dana who answers questions (af9ec3) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:17 pm

  297. So today the prosecution introduced the recording of Zimmerman telling his story in the police interview.

    This is a bizarre tactic by the prosecution in my opinion, (granted I don’t practice criminal law) since they’ve removed any need by the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand.

    Comment by SPQR (26706b) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:20 pm

  298. Former got it right:

    In addition , Zimmerman was the one who had intensive MMA training three times a week and boxing training. It stands to reason that Zimmerman was the man on top.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever been in a fight before, Madeline, but even if a man is trained, he can absolutely be dominated by a sudden act of determined aggression and end up on the bottom.

    That, and also that’s what the testimony indicates happened, so your point is absurd. Your standard of proof is kind of on the low side for anything that suits your biases.

    I’d put it a bit differently, however. In an MMA bout, both fighters have been trained, but one of them is still going to lose. Whether Mr Zimmerman was well trained or not, the undisputed fact is that he was in a fist fight that he was losing. Perhaps Mr Martin was as well trained or better, or Mr Martin was stronger or more athletic, but, for whatever reason, he was wining the fight and Mr Zimmerman was losing it.

    Comment by The Dana who thinks that this is obvious (af9ec3) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:28 pm

  299. Why do so many people write things like “when the real cops told him to back off”? I must have read that a hundred times, but it is blatantly false. Telling someone “you don’t have to do that” is not the same thing as telling him to back off or (to put it bluntly) “you have to not do that”. It’s telling him he can do it, or not do it, as he pleases. The emphasis is on the lack of an obligation to do it, but there is no hint of any obligation not to do it.

    A second point: it seems to me that a broken nose is in fact a “serious injury” by any reasonable standard. The fact that he recovered without a permanently misshapen nose means it was not a permanent injury, but it was still quite serious. Maybe Evil Knievel or Mike Tyson would consider a broken nose a minor injury, but will the all-female jury agree? Imagine if someone tried to rape or rob one of them and she escaped unraped and with all her money, but with a broken nose: what do you think she would say if the police said “hey, at least you weren’t seriously injured”?

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:34 pm

  300. Okay, I’d be interested in anyone here’s perspective

    My perspective is that the last two police officers at least (Singleton and Serino), and really all of them, have been pretty down with Zimmerman’s version of events.

    I suspect they secretly are on his side as they never thought the evidence matched the charges. I would go that far.

    What do you think?

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:46 pm

  301. Dr Weevil, additionally no police officer told Zimmerman to “back off” regardless of the semantics. A dispatcher did. They are not police.

    Former Conservative, I don’t know if the officers were sympathetic to Zimmerman or not, but its clear that they think the prosecutor is a clown.

    Comment by SPQR (26706b) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:49 pm

  302. That said, I don’t think that Mr Zimmerman is some kind of innocent victim; he was playing cop when the real cops told him to back off,

    Nope. A civilians dispatcher said to

    and that was the genesis of the confrontation.

    From the info a available, the genesis of the confrontation was when Trayvon decided to circle back and directly confront GZ

    If he had backed off when he was told to back off, none of this would have happened.

    Hindsight is wonderful.

    He’s in a situation of his own making, which just might be the crux of the matter if he is brought up on federal charges for violating Mr Martin’s civil rights.

    Exactly what civil rights did GZ violate?

    Comment by JD (38e188) — 7/1/2013 @ 3:54 pm

  303. And you’re right, Dana, Madeline’s point was asinine. If one just watches MMA, one realizes that trained men get on the bottom with people punching them all the time.

    And I don’t think Zimmerman is an MMA superstar. Just sayin’.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:03 pm

  304. Beldar, in Florida non-capital prosecutions may be initiated by either indictment or information. The Seminole County Circuit Court’s online docket shows an information filed on 4/11/2012 with affidavit of probable cause on 4/12/2012. If there was a Perry Mason type preliminary hearing? Or it was waived by the defense? Maybe somebody else can sift through the docket?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:33 pm

  305. Lest anyone think what I said about Serino’s testimony, especially the last 5 minutes, being surreally helpful for the defense, here’s Legal Insurrection’s resident self-defense expert’s (who has a self-defense law book on pre-order if this interests you) description in his analysis that he just posted:

    “If you didn’t listen to the live streaming of the Zimmerman case, you missed the most astonishing cross-examination of a trial that has been hip-deep in astonishing cross-examinations. (Fortunately for you, we provide the video, below, if you need to catch up–it’s worth it.)”
    — Andrew Branca

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:36 pm

  306. *Lest you think it’s exagarrated

    Hint: it’s not.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 4:38 pm

  307. nk (#302 7/1/2013 @ 4:33 pm), thanks for that confirmation and link. That fits my recollection of what was being explained about Florida criminal procedure at the time.

    Comment by Beldar (f38a66) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:00 pm

  308. Isn’t this the investigator that all the trolls kept saying that he wanted to arrest Z for murder?

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:09 pm

  309. Yes, this is one and the same.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:10 pm

  310. From narcisco’s link …

    The last O’Mara question of the day, the last words the jury heard to take with them into the evening recess, could only be characterized as catastrophic for the State’s theory of the case. Looking directly at the man who had been the chief investigator on the case, who had possessed access to ever bit of evidence of any sort, who had interviewed, and re-interviewed, and re-re-interviewed–applying increasing from each interview to the next–O’Mara asked him:

    “Do YOU think George Zimmerman was telling you the truth?”

    Serino succinct answer: “Yes.”

    Comment by JD (38e188) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:15 pm

  311. Do we think that the prosecution is regretting they brought this to trial, or are there other factors that make up for this disaster of a case?

    In the unwarranted but possible event that Z is found guilty of something, would that be vindication or even a worse legacy?

    Bringing to trial a case without substance seems bad enough, to bring such a case only to be part of a miscarriage of justice seems about as low as one can go on the Nifong scale.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:35 pm

  312. Has there been even one prosecution witness that in the net, was more beneficial to the prosecution than the defense?

    Other than Perry, does anyone else truly believe this is going well for the prosecution?

    Comment by JD (38e188) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:42 pm

  313. Okay, I’ve watched probably an hour and a half of today’s testimony.

    It was as if Hollywood sitcom writers had decided to do a spin-off from the old “Police Squad!” TV show and “Naked Gun” movies — “Prosecutors Squad!” This is like a very cruel parody of a criminal prosecution. I’d expect better of a prosecution team composed of random fourth-graders.

    Comment by Beldar (f38a66) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:42 pm

  314. JD, this is going about as well for the prosecution as the proverbial turd in a punchbowl.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/1/2013 @ 7:50 pm

  315. Which witnesses did you watch, Beldar?

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:03 pm

  316. Well, I admit I was wrong about one thing. The prosecution is crazy enough to introduce GZ’s statement that established his claim of self defense. Whoda thunkit?

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:04 pm

  317. The proverbial turd in the punchbowl is actually a good thing – if you’re an alcoholic dung beetle.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:10 pm

  318. FC, I’ve been watching clips from the direct & cross of Detectives Singleton and Investigator Serino.

    It’s almost like this trial is being presented by DC Comics — and it’s taking place in Htrae, the square-shaped planet that’s home to Bizarro and his fellow distorted reflections of humanity.

    I cannot for the life of me figure out why there aren’t repeated comptency/foundation/speculation/bolstering objections being made and sustained. It’s like both sides have agreed to ignore the rules of evidence and try the case based on hearsay and speculation from oath-helpers — except the oath-helpers here aren’t the usual crew (the defendant’s girlfriend or mother or fourth-grade teacher), but the investigating police officers!

    Comment by Beldar (f38a66) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:20 pm

  319. Dr that’s no way to talk about Mooch. :lol:

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/1/2013 @ 8:21 pm

  320. Yes, it’s pretty shocking!

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/1/2013 @ 9:07 pm

  321. You want an example of missing the point;

    http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2013/07/01/zimmerman-trial-prosecution-still-game

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/1/2013 @ 9:24 pm

  322. Do we think that the prosecution is regretting they brought this to trial, or are there other factors that make up for this disaster of a case?

    I was under the impression that a big factor that forced the hand of the government was threats of “civil unrest.” But if the verdict doesn’t please and placate the liberal nitwits who are predominant throughout the “If I had a son, he’d look like…” community, then talk about another civil “uprising” may be more than idle chatter.

    If so, well, let the chips fall where they may. The idiocy of modern-day liberalism has totally exhausted and sickened me, and squeezed out whatever “compassion for compassion’s sake” I once had.

    Comment by Mark (67e579) — 7/1/2013 @ 9:27 pm

  323. “In addition , Zimmerman was the one who had intensive MMA training three times a week and boxing training. It stands to reason that Zimmerman was the man on top.”

    Oh OK
    So intensively trained G Zimmerman uses his skills and gets on top of Martin and goes to “ground and pound” without leaving a mark on Trayvon, but George does manage to lump the back of his own head up and bust his own nose…. right?
    I am pretty sure I could train intensively for years and never be able to get a guy into the “ground and pound” position, and then beat my own ass

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/1/2013 @ 10:22 pm

  324. Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/1/2013 @ 10:22 pm

    Sorta sounds like an old Richard Pryor joke about his Golden Glove boxing days. Other boxer was throwing his gloves at his own head prior to the match starting. Richard says, “Hey coach, he’s kicking his own ass, he don’t give a sh!t about me!”

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/1/2013 @ 11:53 pm

  325. 319.You want an example of missing the point;

    http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2013/07/01/zimmerman-trial-prosecution-still-game

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/1/2013 @ 9:24 pm

    Wow, that prosecutor was as horrible as this de la Rosa clown in Florida. Do these prosecutors not know or not care about the law?

    NICOLAZZI: The justification in Florida, stand your ground, does not apply. It’s out the window if you provoke the attack. And to me, as a lawyer, I’m telling that jury that he provoked the attack.

    Does she not know the GZ legal team is not mounting a “stand your ground” defense? O’Mara told the judge they weren’t going to seek a stand your ground hearing back in March. It’s just straight-up self-defense to this point.

    Or is she just a media whore who’s willing to degrade herself to get face time before a TV camera? I can’t imagine saying something that stupid. Something so wrong on so many levels.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:14 am

  326. Maybe Nicolazzi wants a job with Angela Corey at the Florida Attorney General’s office. To build on what Beldar said, it looks like Corey uses a variation of Jeff Foxworthy’s show “Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader?”

    You’re only in the running if you lose.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:17 am

  327. I don’t think so, for two reasons: 1) She is so thoroughly discredited that no properly instructed jury could possibly fail to have at least reasonable doubt about her veracity. 2) What exactly did she say that actually counts as evidence on which a conviction could be based? To the best of my recollection, even if we were to believe every word she said (taking the latest version in cases where she contradicted herself) there’s nothing that’s inconsistent with the defense’s story.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 6/30/2013

    1) jury question. The judge can’t determine whether she is discredited or not.

    2) Of course it’s already established that George shot Trayvon. The matter at issue is whether George acted in self defense. Jeantel’s testimony, if seen in the light most favorable to the prosecution, shows that George instigated the actual fight. Of course I do not believe that it does, but I think the judge has to view the evidence in the light most favorable to the respondent to a directed verdict motion. Because an aggressor cannot claim self defense without some caveats, that would mean a directed verdict is not appropriate.

    As a common sense matter, of course the state has not proven George did not defend himself by any standard, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt. There’s too much evidence that he was not the aggressor, and that what he protected himself from was indeed serious.

    I guess we’ll see if this pans out.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:39 am

  328. Dustin, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of cases where the judge dismissed the case because it was “too dangerous” to let the jury convict on the evidence presented. My understanding is that in considering whether to give a directed verdict the judge must choose from among all the reasonable interpretations of the evidence the one most favourable to the prosecution; not from all the possible interpretations. In other words if the judge sees that a witness has been completely discredited then it would not be legitimate for the jury to convict on the basis of that witness, and she shouldn’t allow the jury to do so. Only if the witness hasn’t been completely discredited, and there’s some reasonable way in which the jury could believe her, should it go to them. Am I misunderstanding something?

    Also, how exactly does Jeantel’s testimony, even if credible, show that Zimmerman started the fight? She didn’t claim to have heard the fight start, did she? At worst, she heard Zimmerman answer Martin’s challenge aggressively rather than placatingly (“what are you doing here?” rather than “what are you talking about?”). But suppose that’s true; Zim had every right to ask Martin what he was doing there, and that would not have justified Martin hitting him. And Jeantel had no information on who had actually first swung his fists. So even taking her testimony in the light most favourable to the prosecution, how does it support a conviction?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:47 am

  329. Dana, you seem hung up on this “not doing whatthe police told him” issue.

    1. It was a dispatcher, not a policeman

    2. It wasn’t an order

    3. If it had been an order, it would have been ultra vires, and he’d have been well within his rights to ignore it

    4. The reason the dispatcher made that suggestion was not because there would have been something wrong with his following Martin, but because it might have been too dangerous for him, and he’s not required or expected to take such a risk.

    5. He says he obeyed the dispatcher’s suggestion, and returned to the car, and there’s no evidence to contradict him. In the absence of such evidence I see no reason not to take his word for it.

    What am I missing, in your view?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:53 am

  330. JD asked:

    Other than Perry, does anyone else truly believe this is going well for the prosecution?

    I do! :lol:

    Comment by Hamilton Burger (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:49 am

  331. Where did Perry comment? Or is JD on the ghost hunt for former commenters again. Can anyone say obsessed?

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:38 am

  332. I’m guessing that the song playing in the background as Ian G. was watching JD’s comment pass over his head Mr. Burger was Peter, Paul, and Mary singing “Leaving on a Jet Plane.”

    Comment by reff (e41361) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:51 am

  333. The man with President Nixon’s middle name, plus an “e”, wrote:

    He says he obeyed the dispatcher’s suggestion, and returned to the car, and there’s no evidence to contradict him. In the absence of such evidence I see no reason not to take his word for it.

    No evidence? Well, it’s pretty clear that he wasn’t in his car when he got into the altercation with Mr Martin, isn’t it? If he did return to his car, he didn’t stay there.

    I don’t find the distinction between being told by the police or a civilian dispatcher to leave the situation alone significant; regardless of by whom he was told this, he did not comply. Mr Martin may well have started the fight, when Mr Zimmerman got close to him, but Mr Zimmerman created the situation by stalking Mr Martin in the first place.

    Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:09 am

  334. dana,

    One sided explanations are always very compelling
    there is no corroborated evidence, so far, that anything Zimmerman said was true except for the part where he ended up on his back beneath Martin.

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:20 am

  335. Zim had every right to ask Martin what he was doing there, and that would not have justified Martin hitting him

    Dana, not really IMO, Zimmerman had a right to call the police, but not act like one. But regardless, this is why we had a trial even though many breathlessly out there, say this was an open and shut case, including me at one point.

    Someone’s dead and you have someone who was pursuing the victim/aggressor then a court room, not the DA’s intake office is the place to sort this out

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:27 am

  336. And tome, if Zimmerman is going to have any chance at peace in life, this trial will be his saving grace.

    So I poise the question, “did the DA do Zimmerman a favor by having a trial if he is found not guilty”

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:29 am

  337. I don’t find the distinction between being told by the police or a civilian dispatcher to leave the situation alone significant; regardless of by whom he was told this, he did not comply.

    The civilian dispatcher has no authority over him.

    Claiming GZ stalked him is overtly disingenuous.

    Comment by JD (38e188) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:47 am

  338. Someone’s dead and you have someone who was pursuing the victim/aggressor then a court room, not the DA’s intake office is the place to sort this out

    There is no evidence GZ pursued TM, and none that GZ was the aggressor.

    I also think that bringing charges to quell the mob is a disgusting concept. People should be tried because the State has evidence of guilt, and. Either the police or DA had anything close enough to do so.

    Comment by JD (38e188) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:53 am

  339. “Ian” is apparently too cowardly to admit what we all know.

    How many names and IP’s are you up to?

    Comment by JD (38e188) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:57 am

  340. Mr Zimmerman created the situation by stalking Mr Martin in the first place.

    Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:09 am

    Give a cigar to the gentleman who knows the difference between concrete and cement. That is the prosecution’s theory of the case, to wit: Martin was where he was lawfully. He had no duty to retreat from a creepy ass cracker who was stalking him while he was bringing Skittles to his baby brother. The creepy ass cracker as the initial aggressor had a duty to retreat when he was confronted if he wants to claim self-defense.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:59 am

  341. He was the neighborhood watch captain, in a building where they had been 400 calls in one year,
    including a breakin three weeks prior, what is so
    unreasonable about that circumstance.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:11 am

  342. I’m not saying it’s so, I’m saying it’s the only rational (non-insane) reason this case can proceed.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:17 am

  343. We may have glossed over “creepy ass cracker”. Hearsay is a statement made out of court offered in court for the truth of the matter asserted. BDLR did not put it in (repeating it five times) for the sake of Martin’s present sense impressions. He put it in for evidence that Zimmerman is a creepy ass cracker. Remember also BDLR’s opening, “F***ing punks, they always get away with it”.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:22 am

  344. #285, Beldar, my comment at #187 wasn’t intended to raise the question of an indictment by grand jury or at the direction of the prosecutor intentionally bypassing a grand jury for obvious reasons.

    I was pointing out (unsuccessfully) that The Christian Science Monitor’s article contained the correct information, and the same article at Yahoo News claimed Zimmerman was indicted by a Seminole County grand jury.

    Either the CSM article was originally incorrect (GJ indictment) and was subsequently changed without notification of an update, or that YN altered the article to make it look like GZ was indicted by a local grand jury and letting prosecutors off the hook.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:32 am

  345. People keep claiming that Zimmerman following or “stalking” Martin made him the “aggressor”.

    Nonsense. Complete and utter horse manure. There was nothing illegal about Zimmerman’s following of Martin. But legal or illegal, following someone does not make one an “aggressor” in a self-defense sense. The “aggressor” was the one who started the physical fight.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:37 am

  346. One of our Dana’s wrote: “I don’t find the distinction between being told by the police or a civilian dispatcher to leave the situation alone significant; regardless of by whom he was told this, he did not comply. Mr Martin may well have started the fight, when Mr Zimmerman got close to him, but Mr Zimmerman created the situation by stalking Mr Martin in the first place.

    The distinction is important because there is no legal obligation to comply with the “instructions” of a dispatcher. (Which were not phrased as orders in any event).

    And Zimmerman obviously did “create” the situation in the sense that if he had not followed Martin, Martin would not have had a confrontation with Zimmerman. But that’s not culpability in a criminal sense and that’s not being the “aggressor”.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:40 am

  347. 336-If Zimmerman had taken the dispatcher’s advice TM wouldn’t be dead.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:41 am

  348. There is no evidence that Z confronted Martin that I can see. Even by the bulk of the prosecution account and the 911 recording, Z was following at a distance to see what Martin was up to while waiting for the police to come.
    The only account we have of how the two came into close contact was Z’s account that Martin unexpectedly approached him and acted the tough guy, which is consistent with what we know about Martin’s persona in his recent years, cute pictures of a younger Martin not withstanding.

    From the beginning, as implied by the edited version of Z’s comments to the 911 operator, the only thing that makes this a case is if one assumes from the beginning that Z must have been motivated by racism and wanted an excuse to shoot the “poor innocent black” kid.

    Once upon a time it was all too common for African Americans to get blamed for things they didn’t do and not only get convicted of crimes but lynched, and that not only in the south but also the north.
    But while that is true, miscarriage of justice in 2013 does not make up for miscarriage of justice in 1913 or 1963. If you’re looking for vengeance, on the other hand, be careful what you wish for, as looking for vengeance leads to never ending violence.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:47 am

  349. 346-It doesn’t logically follow that a boy without a weapon would confront a man with one.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:48 am

  350. but Mr Zimmerman created the situation by stalking Mr Martin in the first place.

    Oh, sheesh, Dana. The word “stalking” is loaded in a way that hints you’re struggling with the compassion-for-compassion’s-sake side of your gut reactions. Keep in mind that type of bias is why this and other societies throughout the West in particular are creaking and wheezing under their own weight.

    Comment by Mark (a38238) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:56 am

  351. 346-It doesn’t logically follow that a boy without a weapon would confront a man with one.

    How do you suppose TM knew GZ had a weapon? Basically, all the evidence, testimony, and police investigation suggests you are wrong.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:01 am

  352. If Zimmerman had taken the dispatcher’s advice TM wouldn’t be dead.

    And if your wonderful, beautiful, glorious feelings of do-gooderness and humaneness had ruled the day, Zimmerman would be the one 6 feet under. But your Nidal-Hasan-ized compassion should remind people why, ultimately, it’s important and necessary to vote with one’s feet. A reminder why even plenty of liberals in today’s era still avoid moving to or spending much time in communities where lots of people look like Obama’s son if he had a son. Because the politics sure won’t help them when push comes to shove.

    Comment by Mark (a38238) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:03 am

  353. By Z’s account he did follow the dispatcher’s advice, even though he did not have to, and it was Martin that closed the distance between them.
    That may not have been what happened, but we have no evidence to the contrary.
    I believe the dispatcher also asked Z to watch Martin to see where he was going, and after Z lost sight of Martin (from a distance) is when Z headed back to his car.

    If Martin had been in jail or some residential program for delinquent youth, either of which seem warranted by his activities prior to this event,
    he would still be alive.

    Every person who ever died in a car accident wouldn’t have died if they stayed home, so what?

    You would have to prove that:
    A) Z had a legal obligation to follow the dispatcher’s advice (which he did not)
    B) that he indeed clearly disobeyed the dispatcher’s instruction’s (which you can’t)
    c) that Z’s disobedience to the dispatcher’s instructions were the cause of the direct confrontation (which you also can’t)

    Z had no legal obligation to follow the dispatcher’s instructions, but it is also possible to say he did to the extent he tried to both “see where he was going” and not “follow” close enough to get into a confrontation
    It appears by Z’s story that it was Martin who caused the direct confrontation.

    If Z “stalked and hunted Martin down to shoot him” there is no evidence for it, other than the fact that Martin is dead. There is another explanation, Z’s account, which is substantiated by all of the testimony of the prosecution. It is much easier on the evidence given to say that it was self defense, beyond a reasonable doubt (which one does not have to prove), than to say that Z initiated a direct confrontation and is responsible for killing Martin.

    If you want to start convicting people based on suppositions and prejudices instead of evidence, that is a very, very bad precedent.

    No justice for all, no justice at all still holds.
    Vengeance doesn’t work.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:05 am

  354. This is why it became necessary for Spike Lee to tweet his parent’s address, a bounty issued by the New Black Panther Party,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:05 am

  355. 346-It doesn’t logically follow that a boy without a weapon would confront a man with one.
    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:48 am

    The best you can do is make up something that we have no evidence for, rather than analyze the case on the basis of the facts we do have?

    Might as well claim that Obama is not legally President because he was born in New Zealand.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:14 am

  356. Does the NSA have data archived that contains the GPS data for the cell phones of Z and Martin at the time of the event?
    It would seem that if there is evidence that shows Z’s phone closing the distance on Martin’s phone, or Martin’s phone closing the distance on Z’s, it would make a difference.
    Not really different from looking into the security tape recording of a facility, except that the NSA is the one who has the data stored, because it has the capacity to, rather than the security tape of a facility that is kept only for a relatively brief period of time before it is erased and written over.
    Obama’s NSA undermining Obama’s pet prosecution.

    It seems that the defense has no reason to look into it now,
    but if Z is acquitted and Holder brings federal civil rights challenges, I would go for it immediately. But then I’m not a lawyer, and I should ask nk and the rest of you lawyers first.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:26 am

  357. How does anyone know that another has a weapon? He sees it.

    Also, if GZ had gone home TM would still be alive.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:28 am

  358. People like Ian G really irk me when they have the luxury of being so idealistic and willfully naive because they’re living in a bubble of a relatively safe, secure location—when they’re guilty of one of the more notorious aspects of “limousine liberalism” (and one does not have to be wealthy to be guilty of such phoniness).

    I’ll never forget reading an article in the LA Times several years ago about a couple (2 white/Anglo gay guys, btw) residing in a part of LA that was “transitional,” but where the crime and dysfunction that kept seeping into their neighborhood eventually got the better of them. They then picked up and moved to Portland, Oregon.

    It’s easy to talk the talk when you never have to walk the walk—or when your feet take you far away as soon as the going gets too tough.

    Comment by Mark (a38238) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:32 am

  359. Also, if GZ had gone home TM would still be alive.
    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:28 am

    And if TM were still alive, maybe he would have killed someone in search of his gangsta persona.

    And if…

    There are lots of what if’s, and there are lots of reasons for family and friends of TM to grieve, but there is little, if any, apparent reason to hold Z criminally responsible for TM’s death under US law.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:39 am

  360. It doesn’t logically follow that a boy without a weapon would confront a man with one.

    You have evidence that Zimmerman had an AK slung over his shoulder?

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:44 am

  361. If Zimmerman had taken the dispatcher’s advice TM wouldn’t be dead.

    If you turn left and not right when going for a walk, you may never meet your wife.

    Well, not the good wife, anyway. :P

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:13 am

  362. MD, I have no clue about the technology.

    I do know a little about the DOJ’s policy on successive prosecutions. There will be no reason for a federal prosecution on the same facts if Zimmerman is acquitted. This is not a sham trial (e.g. Medgar Evers), and what evidence would the feds have that is not available to the prosecution now?

    Since we’re talking politically-motivated prosecution, it was a Republican governor, a Republican Attorney General, and a Republican Special Prosecutor, who overrode the judgment of the local police and State’s Attorney. Neither Scott nor Biondi were up for reelection in 2012 so my guess is they were trying to help Romney and Rubio. Romney lost Florida but Rubio won. Was it worth it?

    Just because they have the R does not mean they ‘r on our side.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:15 am

  363. nk

    Kid is dead, prosecutors ALL the time, overrule the judgment of local police.

    We only have Zimmerman’s word on what happened, yes one witness corroborated some of it but not enough IMO

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:27 am

  364. Also, if GZ had gone home TM would still be alive.
    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:28 am

    And if TM hadn’t assaulted GZ, TM would be alive.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:40 am

  365. Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:15 am
    You’re right, that they were repubs. I don’t know if they thought caving to the public pressure was the things to do, in part because of the 2012 elections or what.

    And as long as Holder is the AG, and Holder has the one as his boss, laws and policies don’t seem to mean much if they are only in the way of what they accomplish.

    yes one witness corroborated some of it but not enough IMO
    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:27 am

    What part of “beyond a reasonable doubt” do you not understand? You have a claim of self-defense. You have the actions of the accused c/w an innocent person having defended himself. You have physical evidence c/w the claim. The witness testimony available supports self-defense.
    The only things that don’t support self-defense are the inaccurate early portrayals of Zimmerman and Martin and the desire to base the outcome of the event on racism, whether there is evidence for it or not.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:05 am

  366. If TM had gotten his Skittles and gone home, rather than wandering the neighborhood looking in windows, he’d be alive, too. Or if he’d run home after GZ saw him. Or if the store had been out of Skittles, and he’d gone further to a different store to get them, he wouldn’t have been seen by GZ at all.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:12 am

  367. Kid is dead, prosecutors ALL the time, overrule the judgment of local police.

    We only have Zimmerman’s word on what happened, yes one witness corroborated some of it but not enough IMO

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:27 am

    Is disingenuousness one of your names? Scott and Biondi overruled Phil Archer the State Attorney for Seminole County and the proper person to decide on prosecution. They appointed Angela Corey, a State Attorney from another circuit, whose name is a byword for malice, viciousness and prosecutorial overreaching, as special prosecutor.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:20 am

  368. nk

    that happens all the time, someone is , who was unarmed, who was approached by an armed adult.

    Let the court case find mr z not guilty, lets not condemn those who are just doing their job

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:40 am

  369. md

    kid is dead, Z took a pistol to a confrontation. Very minor injuries, partial witnesses, going to be A hung jury IMO

    Comment by E.PWJ (6140f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:42 am

  370. That happens all the time? Tell me just one other time.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:50 am

  371. The only reason I can see for 6 women to convict is to avoid a race war.

    Small chance for hung jury IMHO.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:54 am

  372. == Z took a pistol to a confrontation.==

    This is why people have a problem with your comments so often. They are disingenuous to the max. There was no foregone “confrontation. There was a man with a legal gun in his waistband walking at night in his own neighborhood. Start there.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:55 am

  373. Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:09 am

    If he did return to his car, he didn’t stay there.

    I don’t even know where that claim comes from.

    Zimmerman had arranged to meet with the police. He says he was concerned he didn’t have the exact address.

    His call to the police ended like this:

    Dispatcher: OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42 in the call or 7:13:12 pm]

    Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

    [At 7:13:12 dispatcher keys in: COMPL WILL 1056 AT MAILBOXES OF COMPLEX]

    Dispatcher: All Right, George. I’ll let them know you’ll meet them around there, OK?

    Zimmerman: Actually, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

    Note: at that point, Zimmerman was not by the mailboxes, and neither was his car if I am right, and in any case he was not near his car. He had gotten out, chased Trayvon Martin for about 15 seconds, and then stopped and continued talking to the police on his cellphone for 1 to 1 1/2 minutes since about 2:34 into the call. He doesn’t start walking anywhere till sometime after the call ends at 4:07 minutes into the call]

    Dispatcher: OK, yeah, that’s no problem.

    [At 7:13:41 dispatcher keys in: COMPL NOW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056]

    (Note: But they’re still heading toward the mailboxes. If Zimmerman was called, he never answered his phone. The 911 calls came just when he Officer Smith, the first patrolman who responded, arrived on scene at 1111 Retreat View Circle at 7:17:11. And he did not know the 911 calls had to do with the same Zimmerman. So this call probably was never made.)

    Zimmerman: You need my number, or you’ve got it?

    Dispatcher: Yeah, I’ve got it. It’s 435-2400. (zero-zero)

    Zimmerman: Yeah, you got it.

    Dispatcher: OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]

    Zimmerman: Thanks.

    Dispatcher: You’re welcome. [4:06]

    Call ends 4:07 Time is 7:13:41. In no more than 3 1/2 minutes, Travon Martin will be shot dead, after a struggle.

    Zimmerman said he was going to call back with the correct address. He says that he walked to try to find a street sign because he didn’t know the name of the street. Even if that’s alast second decision to go after Martin, he could not have caught up to him on foot if Martin was running away.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:57 am

  374. It’s possible Martin had a secret destination (to meet someone, or to buy marijuana, but probably not to burglarize) that he didn’t want Zimmerman to see.

    But Zimmerman was not leaving the area.

    H was forcing him either to miss his connection or the Basketball All Star game on television.

    Solution: Beat him up.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:58 am

  375. MARTIN MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN WHERE TO FIND HIS CONTACT (that could be why he was looking at all the houses) AND HE MAY HAVE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH SOMEONE WHO KNEW THE AREA TRYING TO GET EXACT DIRECTIONS TO, let’s say, THE LOCAL PART TIME MARIJUANA DEALER.

    He had $22 in his pocket, which is enough to get a little marijuana.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:59 am

  376. BTW, in describing Angela Corey as a slatternly, evil, soulles witch, with the ethics of a rabid weasel and personal hygiene and halitosis to match, I do not mean to imply that she is also given to unnatural sexual practices with small animal indigenous and non-indigenous to Florida, nor that she indulges in halucinogenic substances distilled from tree frogs and the secretions of primitive marine animals. I apologize if I have given that impression.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:02 am

  377. Very minor injuries,

    Let me see, note to self, before I use a gun to defend myself, wait until level of consciousness is reduced from either brain trauma or blood loss to show I had reason to fear for my life.

    Yeah, got it.

    This has been debunked numerous times, in addition to elissa’s comment addressing your framing of the situation.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:06 am

  378. There’s a lot of nonsense on this thread.

    Some people can’t see the difference between a suggestion and a command. There is a world of difference between “you don’t have to do that” and “don’t do that!”

    The first leaves it up to the individual to decide if they’ll do something they don’t have to do.

    Some people refuse to see the distinction between a suggestion from a 911 operator and an order from a police officer.

    Then there’s the idea that GZ stalked TM. Stalkers don’t stay on the phone telling the 911 operator where their stalking victim is headed.

    Finally there’s the idea that GZ was the aggressor because he “created” the situation. No, he didn’t. In any case more is required.

    From Volokh:

    http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/27/floridas-self-defense-laws/

    Finally, Florida law guaranteeing self-defense rights express excludes anyone who “Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself.” Fla. Stats. 776.041. As is typical in other states, the provoker can only regain self-defense rights if:

    (2)(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

    The only way that this statute would be relevant would be if Zimmerman initially attacked Martin, and then withdrew. Zimmerman has made no such claim, nor does the M narrative.

    Most states spell this out. I doubt there’s a need to as proceeding down the same street some distance behind someone else does not constitute a provocation. No matter how much TM disliked GZ looking at him. I know in Texas the relevant statutes stipulate the provocation can not be verbal.

    In other words GZ could have closely followed TM and hurled racial slurs at him and that wouldn’t constitute sufficient provocation for TM to assault GZ. But GZ didn’t do that. The only way under the law GZ could have provoked TM and therefore forfeited his claim of self defense is if he had physically attacked TM first. And even then he could have “regained his innocence” by attempting to withdraw or signalling his willingness to withdraw if he was unable to do so.

    I imagine screaming for help might be taken as one such signal.

    But then since there’s zero evidence GZ attacked TM then there’s zero evidence he lost his right to self defense.

    All the speculation to the contrary is nonsense.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:34 am

  379. Mark wrote:

    but Mr Zimmerman created the situation by stalking Mr Martin in the first place.

    Oh, sheesh, Dana. The word “stalking” is loaded in a way that hints you’re struggling with the compassion-for-compassion’s-sake side of your gut reactions. Keep in mind that type of bias is why this and other societies throughout the West in particular are creaking and wheezing under their own weight.

    When I wrote the paragraph, I initially used the word “following,” but deliberately changed it to “stalking,” because it is precisely the word I intended to use and meaning I wished to convey. “Following” could mean simply being behind someone on the sidewalk, completely coincidentally, but stalking means deliberately trailing someone.

    And that is exactly what Mr Zimmerman was doing: he was deliberately trailing Mr Martin to see what Mr Martin was up to. That can’t be denied, because Mr Zimmerman has admitted it.

    Mr Zimmerman’s actions were, at that point, not illegal, and it may well be that Mr Martin was the actual aggressor, starting the fight. But that does not mean that Mr Zimmerman did not create the situation in the first place.

    Comment by The very precise Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:37 am

  380. Z took a pistol to a confrontation. Very minor injuries,

    Good Allah. He did not set out for a confrontation. Minor injuries is both disingenuous and irrelevant.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:43 am

  381. Florida law spells out the only way GZ could have “created” a situation in which he forfeited a claim of lawful self-defense. And that would be if he “created” a situation in which TM was justified in using force against GZ.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.

    There’s no evidence that GZ ever threatened to use any level of unlawful force against TM. So he wasn’t the aggressor except in the minds of people like E.PWJ who apparently think they are a law unto themselves if they ever get on a jury.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:44 am

  382. but stalking means deliberately trailing someone.

    Not in the eyes of the law.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:48 am

  383. 377. When I wrote the paragraph, I initially used the word “following,” but deliberately changed it to “stalking,” because it is precisely the word I intended to use and meaning I wished to convey. “Following” could mean simply being behind someone on the sidewalk, completely coincidentally, but stalking means deliberately trailing someone.

    And that is exactly what Mr Zimmerman was doing: he was deliberately trailing Mr Martin to see what Mr Martin was up to. That can’t be denied, because Mr Zimmerman has admitted it.

    Mr Zimmerman’s actions were, at that point, not illegal, and it may well be that Mr Martin was the actual aggressor, starting the fight. But that does not mean that Mr Zimmerman did not create the situation in the first place.

    Comment by The very precise Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:37 am

    To the very unprecise Dana; stalking is illegal. Really, you ought to look it up.

    Following someone down the street to report suspicious activities to the police isn’t stalking. If that were the case every single criminal who was trailed by a citizen so the cops would know where to make the arrest would have a slam-dunk lawsuit.

    And no, GZ didn’t create the situation. I don’t know why people keep insisting on making up non-existent legal theories to assign guilt to GZ.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:49 am

  384. What word would you use, JD, to describe following a specific person, in an attempt to determine what he was doing?

    Comment by The Dana seeking guidance on grammar (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:50 am

  385. That can’t be denied, because Mr Zimmerman has admitted it.

    It can be denied. I, and many others here, and likely GZ and his lawyers, would deny stalking. I don’t recall GZ admitting to stalking anyone. Could you show where he did so?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:51 am

  386. …stalking means deliberately trailing someone.

    So when a parent finally agrees that their child is big enough to walk to the corner grocery by themselves for the first time, but deliberately trails them at a distance to make sure the kid is safe, that parent is guilty of stalking.

    Who knew?

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:52 am

  387. “And that is exactly what Mr Zimmerman was doing: he was deliberately trailing Mr Martin to see what Mr Martin was up to.”

    Dana – Well, if you mean keeping an eye on Mr. Martin until the police arrived to handle the situation so that Mr. Zimmerman would not be involved in a confrontation himself, I’m not sure stalking is the right word choice. Observing is more neutral.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:53 am

  388. No evidence? Well, it’s pretty clear that he wasn’t in his car when he got into the altercation with Mr Martin, isn’t it? If he did return to his car, he didn’t stay there.

    Nobody suggested he should get into his car. The dispatcher merely said that although she’d asked him which way Martin had gone, he didn’t need to actually follow him to find this out, to which he replied “OK”. He says he returned to his car, where he was when Martin attacked him. So far no evidence has emerged that contradicts this account, so why don’t you believe it?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:54 am

  389. 784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.—
    (1) As used in this section, the term:
    (a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
    (b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of “course of conduct.” Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.
    (c) “Credible threat” means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.
    (d) “Cyberstalk” means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose.
    (2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    (3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person’s child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (4) Any person who, after an injunction for protection against repeat violence, sexual violence, or dating violence pursuant to s. 784.046, or an injunction for protection against domestic violence pursuant to s. 741.30, or after any other court-imposed prohibition of conduct toward the subject person or that person’s property, knowingly, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (5) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks a minor under 16 years of age commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (6) Any law enforcement officer may arrest, without a warrant, any person he or she has probable cause to believe has violated the provisions of this section.
    (7) Any person who, after having been sentenced for a violation of s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) and prohibited from contacting the victim of the offense under s. 921.244, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks the victim commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (8) The punishment imposed under this section shall run consecutive to any former sentence imposed for a conviction for any offense under s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5).
    History.—s. 1, ch. 92-208; s. 29, ch. 94-134; s. 29, ch. 94-135; s. 2, ch. 97-27; s. 23, ch. 2002-55; s. 1, ch. 2003-23; s. 3, ch. 2004-17; s. 3, ch. 2004-256; s. 17, ch. 2008-172.

    Not stalking

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:54 am

  390. You just beat me to it, JD.

    It seems the very precise Dana is using the term stalking very unprecisely.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:57 am

  391. If you are gonna be precise Dana, you should be precise. You chose a loaded emtionally charged word.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:57 am

  392. I don’t find the distinction between being told by the police or a civilian dispatcher to leave the situation alone significant; regardless of by whom he was told this, he did not comply.

    Again, he says he did; but suppose he didn’t, it was 1) a suggestion, not an order, and 2) from someone with no right to give him orders.

    Mr Martin may well have started the fight, when Mr Zimmerman got close to him, but Mr Zimmerman created the situation by stalking Mr Martin in the first place.

    Which, in your speculative scenario, he had every right to do. How can that make him responsible for Martin’s utterly illegal and unwarranted response to his lawful (supposed) act of following Martin? How does this make him less than 100% innocent, even if he’s lying about returning to his car?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:58 am

  393. Mr Zimmerman was…deliberately trailing Mr Martin to see what Mr Martin was up to. That can’t be denied, because Mr Zimmerman has admitted it.

    That was earlier.

    He called the police and said: Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy…..This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about.

    Then Trayvon Martin (assuming it was him, because another possibility is that there were two men in the area) stops and starts starinmg at GZ.

    He approaches GZ, gets close enough for GZ to more certainly identify his race (at first he only said he looks black and assess his age as “late teens”

    GZ says he was or is looking at all the houses. It has to be was even if GZ used the present tense because TM has stopped. (GZ is referring to what the situation was before the man stopped.)

    Zimmerman says Something’s wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got somethin’ in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.

    He’s mystified. GZ asks for a policeman to come over. He exclaims They always get away and then, suddenly, the man begins running zaaway from him towards the other entrance to the neighborhood

    GZ gets out of his car starts chasing him, and exclaims something else under his breath which might be ‘F-ing cold’ because he can’t reach him and blames it on a cold. The word sounded most like “colts” to me when I listened to the tape.

    The dispacther asks if he is following him and says he doesn’t need to do that and GZ says OK and apparently stops, at least until the end of the call, 1 1/2 minutes later.

    At first GZ arranges to meet the police by the mailboxes, which would mean walking back some 100 to 150 feet to his car, getting back into his car and driving the car back the way he just came, but then says he will call them back and tell them where he is.

    He later says he went further to get the name of a street. (Not to mention being attacked by surprise)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:00 am

  394. Mr 57 wrote:

    And no, GZ didn’t create the situation. I don’t know why people keep insisting on making up non-existent legal theories to assign guilt to GZ.

    So, are you of the opinion that Mr Martin would somehow have just accosted Mr Zimmerman had Mr Zimmerman not been trailing him?

    Assuming we are to believe even part of the testimony of Mr Martin’s lovely and svelte lady friend, Mr Martin had spotted Mr Zimmerman stalking/ trailing/ following him, for what purpose Mr Martin was not able to say; that was (apparently) the only reason Mr Martin took any notice of Mr Zimmerman at all.

    Mr Martin may have been a thug, and Mr Martin may have been the one to start the physical confrontation, and Mr Zimmerman may have been perfectly within his legal rights to defend himself, but that does not somehow make Mr Zimmerman a hero, does not somehow mean he didn’t create the situation, and does not mean he’s somehow as pure as the wind-driven snow. He is, in my opinion, the victim of an overly zealous persecution, when the local authorities determined they didn’t have any evidence sufficient to bring charges, and for that reason alone I want to see him acquitted, but that doesn’t mean that I see him as someone completely innocent. He is an idiot.

    Comment by The Dana seeking clarification (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:00 am

  395. Just in case anyone is wondering I thought under the circumstances it was appropriate to use unprecisely instead of imprecisely.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:00 am

  396. 379. Florida law spells out the only way……..

    Steve57 – Don’t forget about nk’s law of sidewalk exclusionary zones under which one is allowed to assault another person if their perfect enjoyment of a sidewalk is spoiled by that other person talking to them or being an obstacle for them to walk around.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:01 am

  397. And Reginald Denny was an’idiot’ for driving across Florence and Normandy, recall that little tidbit.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:02 am

  398. So, are you of the opinion that Mr Martin would somehow have just accosted Mr Zimmerman had Mr Zimmerman not been trailing him?

    Assuming we are to believe even part of the testimony of Mr Martin’s lovely and svelte lady friend, Mr Martin had spotted Mr Zimmerman stalking/ trailing/ following him, for what purpose Mr Martin was not able to say; that was (apparently) the only reason Mr Martin took any notice of Mr Zimmerman at all.

    Mr Martin may have been a thug, and Mr Martin may have been the one to start the physical confrontation, and Mr Zimmerman may have been perfectly within his legal rights to defend himself, but that does not somehow make Mr Zimmerman a hero, does not somehow mean he didn’t create the situation, and does not mean he’s somehow as pure as the wind-driven snow.

    Dana, I am saying that it isn’t up to you, me, or GZ to know ahead of time what perfectly legal activity is going to offend a thug like TM.

    And there’s no if to it; he was a thug. He was proud of it.

    We have a saying in my neck of the woods.

    The bear won’t attack you unless you piss it off. Only the bear knows what’s going to piss it off.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:04 am

  399. Mr 57 wrote:

    …stalking means deliberately trailing someone.

    So when a parent finally agrees that their child is big enough to walk to the corner grocery by themselves for the first time, but deliberately trails them at a distance to make sure the kid is safe, that parent is guilty of stalking.

    Who knew?

    In the English definition of the word, stalking means, among other things, “To track prey or quarry.” It has a connotation of threatening or menacing, which Mr Martin seemed to perceive, but yes, in the scenario you gave, such a parent would be doing just that, stalking.

    I used the term stalking precisely as I said, an English term, not in reference to a legal definition.

    Comment by The English-speaking Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:06 am

  400. That is the prosecution’s theory of the case, to wit: Martin was where he was lawfully. He had no duty to retreat from a creepy ass cracker who was stalking him while he was bringing Skittles to his baby brother. The creepy ass cracker as the initial aggressor had a duty to retreat when he was confronted if he wants to claim self-defense

    Following someone is not aggression. Martin had no duty to retreat from Zim, but why would he need to? Unless Zim attacked him (and so far nobody claims to have any evidence of this) there was nothing to retreat from. He had no right to attack Zim, and if he did so (as Zim claims, with no evidence to contradict him) he was the aggressor, and Zim had no duty to retreat (not that he could retreat anyway).

    This is of course all on the unsupported assumption that he exercised his right to ignore the dispatcher’s suggestion.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:08 am

  401. Zimmerman had a right to call the police, but not act like one

    Really? Why not? What law would have prevented him from following Martin or even confronting him, if he had done so (which he says he didn’t)?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:14 am

  402. Mr 57 agrees with me!

    We have a saying in my neck of the woods.

    The bear won’t attack you unless you piss it off. Only the bear knows what’s going to piss it off.

    It’s also true that the bear won’t attack you unless he notices you. Had Mr Zimmerman been minding his own business, instead of Mr Martin’s, the bear would never have noticed him.

    Perhaps it never occurred to Mr Zimmerman that he might piss off the bear by following the bear, but he followed the bear, and the bear got pissed off.

    Robert E Howard may have explained it best, in 1933:

    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

    It seems that Mr Zimmerman thought he could stalk/ follow/ tail a man who was not doing anything illegal, because he was taking some assumption about the range of possible reactions from his quarry, and those assumptions might not have encompassed the full range of what was possible, and what actually happened.

    Comment by The Dana who appreciate's Mr 57's agreement (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:16 am

  403. Don’t forget about nk’s law of sidewalk exclusionary zones under which one is allowed to assault another person if their perfect enjoyment of a sidewalk is spoiled by that other person talking to them or being an obstacle for them to walk around.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:01 am

    What did happen to that guy? Not the punk with the camera, the one the punk was stalking. Did he go to jail?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:17 am

  404. If Zimmerman had taken the dispatcher’s advice TM wouldn’t be dead.

    So what? How does that make him guilty of anything, and why should that mean he has to go through the ordeal and expense of a trial? Martin attacked him, and paid the price. This is not a bad thing, let alone a crime.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:21 am

  405. Comment by The Dana who appreciate’s Mr 57′s agreement (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:16 am

    It seems that Mr Zimmerman thought he could stalk/ follow/ tail a man who was not doing anything illegal, because he was taking some assumption about the range of possible reactions from his quarry, and those assumptions might not have encompassed the full range of what was possible, and what actually happened.

    Since the teenager started running away from him, that meant, he probably thought, he was afraid of him. SO THE LAST THING HE’D FEAR IS BEING ASSAULTED.

    But TM was probably spooked by GZ’s cell phone, not GZ himself. The fact that GZ was talking on a cell phone meant possible reinforcements. And if that was the case, he wasn’t wrong, since GZ was calling the police.

    Later, when he spots GZ, perhaps he attacks GZ to prevent him from using his cell phone to give away TM’s position. TM could have gone home, but he had some other destination.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:22 am

  406. Etheridge. That was a fun thread. I can’t do, now, what Etheridge did, maybe I can run them over with my walker.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:23 am

  407. From the beginning, as implied by the edited version of Z’s comments to the 911 operator, the only thing that makes this a case is if one assumes from the beginning that Z must have been motivated by racism and wanted an excuse to shoot the “poor innocent black” kid.

    Even if you were, without any evidence, to assume that, it still wouldn’t be a case without any evidence that he attacked Martin. So long as he waited for Martin to be the aggressor, he’d still be innocent.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:23 am

  408. TM could also have been spooked by the car.

    He almost certainly did not suspect GZ had a gun.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:23 am

  409. -It doesn’t logically follow that a boy without a weapon would confront a man with one.

    What’s illogical about it? Even if Martin was behaving rationally (and we have no basis for supposing this) how would he know that Zim was carrying? Martin was bigger, younger, stronger, and badder, and determined to punish Zim for following him. At least that’s what Zim says, and we have no evidence to the contrary.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:25 am

  410. As long as we’re speculating, if Zim had not spotted Martin that night, whose house would have been broken into?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:29 am

  411. Also, if GZ had gone home TM would still be alive.

    And this would have been a good thing why?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:30 am

  412. Ropelight, thanks for the clarification (#342 — 7/2/2013 @ 6:32 am).

    Folks, you may believe — and I would not try to dissuade you from the view that — in hindsight, it was unwise or imprudent of Zimmerman to be anywhere near Martin after speaking with the police.

    Being unwise or imprudent is not a crime.

    Being unwise or imprudent does not forfeit your right to self-defense.

    One of the two men turned a nonviolent confrontation into a violent attack. To convict Zimmerman, the State of Florida has to prove, among other things, that it was Zimmerman who did that, and not Martin.

    It’s not necessary at all for the jury to conclude that Zimmerman was being reasonable and wise and prudent in order for the jury to find that the State has failed to negate, beyond a reasonable doubt, Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. Indeed, in most successful self-defense cases, there’s some point in the history of the events at which one can say, especially using hindsight, that the defendant could have made different choices that might have been more prudent, and that definitely would have prevented the killing.

    Zimmerman doesn’t have to have been an angel, a paragon of reason and prudence, for the killing to nevertheless have been legally justified under the law of self-defense.

    The prosecution hasn’t rested yet, but the holes punched in their case by their own witnesses seem to me to compel a directed verdict of acquittal from any fair-minded judge.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:33 am

  413. Martin had just arrived in Sanford. It is unlikely he would be planning to break intoa house so soon.

    More likely, he was planning to meet someone at a house he could not find because he was unfamilar with the area, possibly to buy marijuana, possibly for somewhat worse purposes, and he was hiding that from his family.

    He attacked GZ either because GZ was preventing that meeting or because he was afraid of GZ’s pals whom GZ could call on his cell phone.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:34 am

  414. Also, if GZ had gone home TM would still be alive.

    And this would have been a good thing why?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:30 am

    This thread has gone on too long.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:34 am

  415. No, Dana, I don’t agree.

    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.

    Another civilized man wouldn’t have tried to split GZ’s skull over something that only a savage would find discourteous.

    Or as the savage would have put it, “disrespecting.”

    Do you really think it’s a compelling argument to claim that GZ’s actions were perfectly legal but he violated the law of the jungle and therefore he’s to blame?

    Really? Do you cower in your house and leave your neighborhood streets to the thugs because you don’t want to “piss off the bear?”

    I didn’t figure you for someone who wants to help the TMs of the world dismantle civilization.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:35 am

  416. It’s not necessary at all for the jury to conclude that Zimmerman was being reasonable and wise and prudent in order for the jury to find that the State has failed to negate, beyond a reasonable doubt, Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. Indeed, in most successful self-defense cases, there’s some point in the history of the events at which one can say, especially using hindsight, that the defendant could have made different choices that might have been more prudent, and that definitely would have prevented the killing.

    Beldar, it’s good to see you commenting more often, especially because you distill these crucial points so plainly. You’re absolutely right. That George’s foresight wasn’t perfect is practically a given if he got into a self defense situation.

    the holes punched in their case by their own witnesses seem to me to compel a directed verdict of acquittal

    While I disagree, I hope you and Milhouse are correct about that. I think we all know that this particular judge will not do this, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong. I just saw Judge Nelson strike the investigator’s testimony that he believed Zimmerman. I do not understand why she ruled that way. This is the guy who investigated the shooting… that he believed the defendant is relevant information. It feels unjust, no matter what the law might be on the topic.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:40 am

  417. Is anyone watching Angela Corey’s pet Medical Examiner demonstrate just how deeply she’s in the bag for the prosecution?

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:46 am

  418. I agree with Steve that Trayvon’s freaking out that George is watching him doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    Some people act guilty when they know someone is watching them because they are. I walk my dog, and sometimes have done so at night. Naturally sometimes someone will notice and make clear they see me. I wave and make a friendly comment about the evening or something. That people have an eye on their neighborhood is not evil.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:46 am

  419. I would think that the testimony of the State’s witnesses in this matter make “beyond a reasonable doubt” a very low bar.
    By their very testimony they have raised all sorts of doubts about the veracity of the State’s case, that is built upon their interviews.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:46 am

  420. Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:34 am

    This thread has gone on too long.

    It’s gone off onto a tangent.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:48 am

  421. It’s possible Martin had a secret destination (to meet someone, or to buy marijuana, but probably not to burglarize) that he didn’t want Zimmerman to see.

    Why “probably not”? It seems as good a guess as any. Or he may have been casing the houses for future burglaries. I don’t see a good reason to rule any of these possibilities out.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:48 am

  422. Now I think people are misunderstanding the Florida law of self defense.

    Quoted in Legal Insxurrection and in comment 188.

    http://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/fl-776-012%E2%80%83use-of-force-in-defense-of-person/
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

    A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent 1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another, or 2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.

    It is not necessary for someone to believe he needs to use deadly physical force to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.

    It is enough if he wants to do it to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony against himself.

    In general this is talking about BEFORE any felony has been committed.

    However, in this case, the felony had already been committed by Trayvon Martin. That felony was assault.

    Now this is future oriented, so the question is will Martin continue to assault him or not.

    If yes, that’s all Zimmemrman needs under the law to justify the use of deadly physical force. He doesn’t need a separate fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:50 am

  423. Mr Zimmerman’s actions were, at that point, not illegal, and it may well be that Mr Martin was the actual aggressor, starting the fight. But that does not mean that Mr Zimmerman did not create the situation in the first place.

    Why is that relevant? How does it make him anything less than completely innocent, and how does it justify putting him through the ordeal and expense of a trial? If by going about his lawful business he created the situation, then he had every right to do so.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:51 am

  424. I just saw Judge Nelson strike the investigator’s testimony that he believed Zimmerman. I do not understand why she ruled that way. This is the guy who investigated the shooting… that he believed the defendant is relevant information. It feels unjust, no matter what the law might be on the topic.

    Dustin, it strikes me as patently unfair, too.

    Andrew Blanca describes it as an ambush over at L.I.

    The state had a detailed motion to suppress, which he believes they must have spent most of the night working on. When the defense couldn’t respond in a sufficient manner off-the-cuff the judge ruled in favor of the state.

    I contrast this to how the judge ruled when the state moved to introduce evidence of GZ’s prior bad acts, claiming the defense had opened the door by asking Ms. Lauer about her personal experience with GZ.

    O’Mara said it was ridiculous and cited a specific statute in his favor. But because the state wasn’t prepared to respond, and the judge said she wasn’t prepared to rule, she deferred the motion. I do not see how the judge could have been prepared to rule on this motion concerning evidence first thing in the morning.

    It seems to me she’s quick on the draw to rule in favor of the state, and awfully slow to rule against the state.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:53 am

  425. What word would you use, JD, to describe following a specific person, in an attempt to determine what he was doing?

    Following.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:56 am

  426. Mr 57 wrote:

    Do you really think it’s a compelling argument to claim that GZ’s actions were perfectly legal but he violated the law of the jungle and therefore he’s to blame?

    Really? Do you cower in your house and leave your neighborhood streets to the thugs because you don’t want to “piss off the bear?”

    I didn’t figure you for someone who wants to help the TMs of the world dismantle civilization.

    Do you lock your car? How about locking the doors of your humble abode at night? If you do either, are you not assuming that there is a possibility that someone will be obeying the laws of the jungle and steal your wheels or rob your crib, and that it is prudent to take some precautions?

    Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:56 am

  427. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

    (1)A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    …(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred

    Assault on your person is an unlawful act. A person has the right under Florida law to use deadly force to put an end to it. End of story.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:56 am

  428. In order to avoid a dismissal or directed verdict of acquittal, the prosecution needs at least some evidence that George Zimmerman was not losing the fight or that the fight was over.

    They have some (not very credible) evidence that that was the case.

    In order to avoid a dismissal of the murder charges and limit this to manslaughter they probably need some evidence that George Zimmerman started the fight. That’s where Rachel Jeantel comes in.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:57 am

  429. nk – You’ve brought up your inviolate sidewalk exclusionary zones since the Etheridge thread, even in connection with Zimmerman I believe. It seems like an obsession for you. That’s what I don’t understand.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:01 pm

  430. People shall be secure in their inviolate personal exclusionary zones while perambulating, walking, standing, jogging, exercising or otherwise present upon public sidewalks.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:02 pm

  431. “It’s possible Martin had a secret destination (to meet someone, or to buy marijuana, but probably not to burglarize) that he didn’t want Zimmerman to see.”

    Milhouse: Why “probably not”? It seems as good a guess as any. Or he may have been casing the houses for future burglaries. I don’t see a good reason to rule any of these possibilities out.

    He had just arrived in Sanford. Casing houses makes a bit more sense, but I would favor looking to meet someone at an address, and not being able to find it because he didn’t know the area.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:48 am

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:03 pm

  432. Mr Martin may have been a thug, and Mr Martin may have been the one to start the physical confrontation, and Mr Zimmerman may have been perfectly within his legal rights to defend himself, but that does not somehow make Mr Zimmerman a hero, does not somehow mean he didn’t create the situation, and does not mean he’s somehow as pure as the wind-driven snow

    How is he not all of the above? He’s a hero for doing his bit to make the neighbourhood a safer place (and may well have prevented a break-in later that night). He didn’t create the situation in any relevant way; Martin attacking him did. You might as well say that a mugging victim created the situation by deciding to walk home rather than take a taxi, or by using an ATM where the mugger could see him. I know nothing one way or the other about his purity, or that of snow in Florida, whether wind- or reindeer-driven, but I know of nothing to rule out the possibility that he is an actual saint.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:05 pm

  433. 386. Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:54 am

    He says he returned to his car, where he was when Martin attacked him. So far no evidence has emerged that contradicts this account, so why don’t you believe it?

    This has been corrected but Zimmerman wasn’t anywhere near his car when he the fight started.

    He has said he went to another street to find out his location and then was walking back to his car when he was attacked.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:07 pm

  434. 390. Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:58 am

    even if he’s lying about returning to his car?

    he’s notlying abouyt returning to his car, but he never said he walked directly back to his car. Instead, he walked ahead to get the name of a street, (and orient himself) so he could call back the police and give them the exact location where to meet him because he didn’t want to meet them at the mailboxes, but closer to where Martin had last been seen.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:10 pm

  435. One obvious thing:

    The fight, and the crying for help, stopped immediately after the gunshot, and the gunshot seems to be the only injury suffered by Trayvion Martin.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:12 pm

  436. It seems that Mr Zimmerman thought he could stalk/ follow/ tail a man who was not doing anything illegal

    Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. We don’t know whether Martin was doing anything illegal. Zim had at least a reasonable suspicion that he was doing something illegal, i.e. planning a burglary. Not that this matters, since there’s nothing wrong with stalking/following/tailing someone who is not doing anything illegal either. So Zim was correct in his thought that he could do so, that he had the right to do so without being molested. This does not make him legally, morally, or in any other way responsible for what happened.

    In your fantasy scenario in which he actually did so, of course, since in the real world we have no reason to doubt his word that he stopped following Martin when the dispatcher told him he could.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:13 pm

  437. 424. Do you lock your car? How about locking the doors of your humble abode at night? If you do either, are you not assuming that there is a possibility that someone will be obeying the laws of the jungle and steal your wheels or rob your crib, and that it is prudent to take some precautions?

    Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:56 am

    Yes I do take precautions. But the precautions I take don’t include not watching someone who’s walking down the street looking into the windows of locked cars seeing if anything is worth stealing and then trying to find a rock big enough to break in when they do.

    And yes I’ve done that.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:13 pm

  438. Followed by calling the police.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:14 pm

  439. From this:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html#.Uc9hWH41NbA.twitter

    As his girlfriend complained, Martin was “always” fighting.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:15 pm

  440. ==that does not somehow make Mr Zimmerman a hero, =

    This is the crap that infuriates me. If there is one person who regularly comments on this Zimmerman thread or any previous Zimmerman thread who ever called Z a hero or insinuated they thought he was a hero I’d like to be reminded who that is. People believing and stating that in their opinion he is innocent of the charges against him and that he has been the victim of a witch hunt is hardly the same thing as painting him as a hero. You used to fight fair and comment with dignity Dana, What has happened?

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:19 pm

  441. It’s possible Martin had a secret destination (to meet someone, or to buy marijuana, but probably not to burglarize) that he didn’t want Zimmerman to see.

    Why “probably not”? It seems as good a guess as any. Or he may have been casing the houses for future burglaries. I don’t see a good reason to rule any of these possibilities out.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:48 am

    Me too. They have almost as much evidence to support them as the possibility that Zimmerman was a wacky, doughboy, mall ninja who set out to pot himself a n***er, covering himself by a pretext call to 911 beforehand.

    Comment by nk who knows the concept of zero and negative numbers (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:21 pm

  442. OK. Milhouse just called him a hero. I stand corrected.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:23 pm

  443. The notion that Zimmerman hadn’t yet suffered “serious” enough injuries to warrant using deadly force is rather Orwellian.
    What was he supposed to do—-wait until he was unconscious ?

    The beating stopped only because Zimmerman ended the beating by shooting Martin.
    Otherwise, if Zimmerman hadn’t shot Martin, who knows what Martin would have done to Zimmerman. Any punch to the face or head can potentially cause serious damage, and the cumulative impact of multiple strikes to the face and head can be reasonably construed as an imminent threat to one’s life.

    The question is, is George Zimmerman justified in doing what he had to do to stop the beating which an eyewintness testified was an “MMA style” beating ?
    Zimmerman had two choices on the menu—one, allow the beating to continue, or two, use the gun.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:30 pm

  444. Do you lock your car? How about locking the doors of your humble abode at night? If you do either, are you not assuming that there is a possibility that someone will be obeying the laws of the jungle and steal your wheels or rob your crib, and that it is prudent to take some precautions?

    So you’re accusing Zimmerman of imprudence? How is that anybody’s business but his own?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:34 pm

  445. Who started what?
    Zimmerman had a legal right to be where he was.
    His simple presence could not be a provocation.
    If Z was “jumped” by TM, that sets who the aggressor is, and triggers FL’s self-defense statute.

    BTW, is the dismissal of the police investigator’s testimony something that can be used in an immediate appeal, or on an appeal upon conviction?

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:34 pm

  446. 440. OK. Milhouse just called him a hero. I stand corrected.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:23 pm

    To be fair, he did so after repeated assertions that GZ was not a hero.

    All the assertions that GZ is no hero occurred before anyone said he was.

    I still wouldn’t call him a hero, just a concerned citizen.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:38 pm

  447. OK. Milhouse just called him a hero. I stand corrected.

    I’m not saying he is a hero, just that it’s not unreasonable to call him one. He did put himself at risk for the benefit of his neighbours, after all.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:39 pm

  448. Angela Corey’s pet Medical Examiner who testified the injuries to Zimmerman’s head were “insignificant” not only owes her job to Corey’a recommendation but she admitted she never examined either TraMar or GZ. She reached her conclusions, which were highly supportive of the prosecution’s case, by looking at pictures.

    Which means she lacks any direct experience on which to base an opinion and should never have been called to testify about the significance, or lack thereof, of GZ injuries. It’s a clear indication the prosecution is desperate and now crossing the line into blatant misconduct.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:40 pm

  449. For everyone who thinks GZ is at fault for “creating” the situation:

    http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-proper-focus

    Officer Down: Proper Focus
    The Steve Rankin Incident

    Deputy Steve Rankin didn’t feel like dealing with a drunk driver this night. He never did. The 25-year-old deputy had less than a year on the job, but he’d made enough DUI arrests to know that they often involved dealing with obnoxious, sometimes hostile drunks, a lot of paper work, multiple court appearances and little reward. Still, drunk drivers were dangerous to themselves and others, and it was his job to get them off the street. So it was with some irritation, tempered with a strong sense of duty, that he pulled up behind the black Mercury as it stopped in front of him.

    …This was no typical stop, and Rankin was becoming increasingly more suspicious that he was dealing with a drunk driver. He immediately grabbed his PA mic and ordered the motorist to pull all the way off the roadway. No response.

    …Although Rankin had no way of knowing it as he approached the vehicle, the individual inside was someone he had stopped in another car about four months before. During that stop, several of his fellow deputies had radioed to warn him that the driver—a 32-year-old career criminal named Ben Westbrook—was well known for his propensity for violence. Later, he would learn that Westbrook had more than 70 prior arrests, a good number of which involved drugs, domestic violence and assaults against police officers, but that night Westbrook had shown no signs of hostility. Tonight would be different.

    …Deputy Rankin wasn’t especially concerned about his safety before the attack, but it wasn’t because he missed the danger signs. Rather, it was because he—like many officers in similar situations—misinterpreted them. Instead of viewing Westbrook’s suspicious behavior as a possible prelude to attack, he saw it as indicative of an intoxicated driver.

    This kind of improper focus is very common, especially among hard-working officers like Deputy Rankin who are aggressive about making self-initiated arrests. We need such officers to keep our streets safe, but not at the cost of their lives. Officer safety must come first. With the right mindset officers can focus on safety without losing their crime fighting edge, but it requires dedicated effort and commitment. Deputy Rankin’s ordeal provides a graphic example of how important it is to develop this kind of focus.

    I guess it’s Deputy Rankin’s fault for creating a situation with a dangerous thug when he only thought he was dealing with a suspicious individual.

    Cops have no more right to provoke people than anyone else.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:44 pm

  450. BTW, is the dismissal of the police investigator’s testimony something that can be used in an immediate appeal, or on an appeal upon conviction?

    The part about believing Zimmerman? Neither. The jury decides credibility, the investigator’s opinion is irrelevant at best.

    Comment by nk who knows the concept of zero and negative numbers (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:44 pm

  451. Do you lock your car? How about locking the doors of your humble abode at night? If you do either, are you not assuming that there is a possibility that someone will be obeying the laws of the jungle and steal your wheels or rob your crib, and that it is prudent to take some precautions?

    Yes, I lock my house. But if I don’t lock my house, that doesn’t give anyone the right to enter it without my permission. And if someone does enter my house without my permission, I’d be well within my rights to shoot him.

    I really expected better arguments from you, Dana.

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (7c7e89) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:47 pm

  452. 446. Angela Corey’s pet Medical Examiner who testified the injuries to Zimmerman’s head were “insignificant” not only owes her job to Corey’a recommendation but she admitted she never examined either TraMar or GZ. She reached her conclusions, which were highly supportive of the prosecution’s case, by looking at pictures.

    Which means she lacks any direct experience on which to base an opinion and should never have been called to testify about the significance, or lack thereof, of GZ injuries. It’s a clear indication the prosecution is desperate and now crossing the line into blatant misconduct.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:40 pm

    Are there any actual rules regarding testimony and evidence in Florida or are they just making this up as they go along?

    Watching the state make its case (and I’m including the judge in that category) reminds me of playing checkers with a 3 year old. The rules say they win.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:47 pm

  453. Cops have no more right to provoke people than anyone else.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:44 pm

    Cops have a duty to provoke people acting suspiciously and they have a duty not to retreat from the possibility. Don’t equate Zimmerman to policeman. Zimmerman would have to do more than eat three dozen donuts a day to achieve that status.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:49 pm

  454. Milhouse and Steve57–I was just acknowledging that after I threw down the gauntlet to the Dana, Milhouse obliged Dana and kind of kneecapped my argument even as I was typing it. I do not believe that people here view Z as a hero in the traditional meaning, which is the rather serious point I wanted the Dana to see. But I felt compelled to acknowledge that Milhouse used the H. word because that’s what honest posters should do, I think.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:50 pm

  455. *from the possibility of force* although *from the possibility of provoking people acting suspiciously* is good too.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:50 pm

  456. , but that does not somehow make Mr Zimmerman a hero,

    I suppose it is too much to ask to show where anyone is portraying him as a hero here?

    Comment by JD (51d3cd) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:51 pm

  457. But that does not mean that Mr Zimmerman did not create the situation in the first place.
    Comment by The very precise Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:37 am
    You know, I could get quite perturbed at the suggestion that someone watching out for his neighborhood “created” a situation.

    This is the crap that infuriates me. … People believing and stating that in their opinion he is innocent of the charges
    [of murder] against him and that he has been the victim of a witch hunt is hardly the same thing as painting him as a hero. You used to fight fair and comment with dignity Dana, What has happened?
    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:19 pm
    I don’t understand Dana’s insistence on this either.

    The notion that Zimmerman hadn’t yet suffered “serious” enough injuries to warrant using deadly force is rather Orwellian.
    What was he supposed to do—-wait until he was unconscious ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:30 pm
    You must have missed my definitive answer:
    Let me see, note to self, before I use a gun to defend myself, wait until level of consciousness is reduced from either brain trauma or blood loss to show I had reason to fear for my life.
    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:06 am
    Altered consciousness, but not altered enough that you can’t think straight.
    A fine line.

    This thread has gone on too long.
    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:34 am

    I think it is not only Z getting beaten, but also a dead horse.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:52 pm

  458. Nevermind. It is still BS. That is the same crap Surls used to do, accuse people of worshipping their hero GZ

    Comment by JD (51d3cd) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:53 pm

  459. 448-
    My question, nk, is about the judge’s actions in not letting the jury consider that testimony, not the veracity of the testimony itself.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:57 pm

  460. Angela Corey’s pet Medical Examiner who testified the injuries to Zimmerman’s head were “insignificant” not only owes her job to Corey’a recommendation but she admitted she never examined either TraMar or GZ. She reached her conclusions, which were highly supportive of the prosecution’s case, by looking at pictures.
    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:40 pm

    The person should have their license for practicing medicine, even if “only” forensic pathology, taken away.
    Really, they should. This is like the Nifong of medical examiners and I hope the Medical Board is paying attention.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:58 pm

  461. We’ll probably find out she’s a Veterinarian.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:00 pm

  462. Pam Bondi and Angela Corey are making George Zimmerman the face of wrongful prosecution, they’re making him the poster boy for what a victim of official persecution looks like.

    Zimmerman may not be a hero, but standing up to being railroaded by the State of Florida’s legal system is damn sure approaching the heroic.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:01 pm

  463. A closed head in jury can be fatal without any external evidence.
    License to practice taken away, sanctioned by professional societies, sued for malpractice-
    Z can now pay his legal fees.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:01 pm

  464. Instead of reaching for his gun, why didn’t this George Zimmerman person just call The Dana for advice ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:06 pm

  465. askeptic, I thought the only part that was stricken was whether the investigator believed Zimmerman. Was there more? In any event, the only interlocutory appeals by the defense that I know of are double jeopardy and disqualification of defense counsel. Everything else waits final judgment.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:08 pm

  466. in jury; injury

    gotta go, later…

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:09 pm

  467. Even a vet should know that closed head wounds can be fatal.

    One of the most puzzling things to me about this is how Zimmerman was allowed not to go to the hospital for a checkup. All sorts of damages that don’t show up five minutes after you get smacked upside the head, but are screamingly obvious a half-hour or half-day later.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:09 pm

  468. I didn’t see the basis of the prosecution’s motion but a witness can’t invade the province of the jury – and saying that you “believe” the defendant is just that.

    Not a big problem, in a way, the prosecution only reemphasized that testimony, and the fact that he said it can’t be erased from the jury’s minds. Further, the defense can still argue his other comments about him not finding any contradictory evidence to Zimmerman’s story.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:10 pm

  469. “I suppose it is too much to ask to show where anyone is portraying him as a hero here?”

    JD – Zimmerman is a skinhead Nazi speed freak.

    Good times, good times.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:10 pm

  470. Beldar @ 410: I would love to agree with your last point about a directed verdict……BUT……what odds would you give that this judge watches the news media and would NEVER subject themself to the vitriol of that same media with a directed verdict???

    Comment by reff (76c56f) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:11 pm

  471. Apparently the medical examiner has had troubles in the past, as O’Mara pointed out (Warning: there is a video at the link that may autoplay):

    http://www.news4jax.com/news/more-complaints-on-jacksonville-medical-examiner-dr-valerie-rao/-/475880/20640256/-/rurvpcz/-/index.html

    In any case, O’Mara destroyed her insinuations that Zimmerman’s injuries were consistent with being hit only one time. Instead, she admitted there were scenarios where Zimmerman could have sustained those same wounds by being hit multiple times.

    The ME’s testimony also proves that Zimmerman was the one being beaten, not Trayvon.

    Multiple people on this thread have explained and linked to explanations that the resulting injuries do not matter to the self-defense case, but that the fear of bodily harm does.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:28 pm

  472. BTW, zimmer is German for room. A Zimmerman is a man who makes rooms, a carpenter. Your kitchen is a cooking zimmer and you sleep in a bed zimmer.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:29 pm

  473. Dustin, thanks for the kind words. Your comment above (#414 — 7/2/2013 @ 11:40 am) prompted me to look into the ruling regarding Serino’s testimony this morning. I haven’t seen the video, but if the description of what happened from Andrew Branca is correct, I’m also quite surprised by that ruling.

    IMHO (as a lawyer but one neither admitted in FL nor a regular practitioner of criminal law): It is a material error by the trial judge, but an appellate court is likely to deem it harmless even if Zimmerman is convicted.

    Throughout the defense lawyer’s cross-examination of Serino yesterday, the defense lawyer asked — without objection by the prosecution — for Serino’s opinion as to Zimmerman’s state of mind at various times and throughout the investigation: Did you think he was truthful? Did you think he was hiding anything?

    When offered for the purpose of proving what Zimmerman’s state of mind was, those questions are wildly improper under Anglo-American rules of evidence going back centuries. No one but Zimmerman is legally competent as a witness who can give direct evidence as to Zimmerman’s state of mind. No one else has the capacity to know and report upon Zimmerman’s state of mind on the first-hand basis required as a fundamental basis for witness competency.

    What police officers can do, and routinely do, is observe objective actions and inactions on the part of the suspects they’re questioning, and then those police officers can and do testify about those facts. “Did he hesitate?” “Was his face flushed?” “Would he meet your gaze directly?” Those questions all go to objective facts, as to which the investigator may be competent to testify.

    And juries can, do, and should consider those sort of objective facts as circumstantial evidence from which they (the jurors) can draw their own ultimate conclusions as to Zimmerman’s state of mind. They will be so instructed in the court’s charge to the jury.

    I used the term “oath-helper” above. Many centuries ago, the law of evidence was the opposite of what it is today. An individual was considered to be disqualified — on grounds of obvious bias and self-interest — from testifying about his own state of mind and intent. Instead, the only way either side could prove that was by calling “oath-helpers”: those who knew the actor, who would swear that “I know Joe the Miller’s son, and I’m very certain that he’s the sort of boy who could and would deliberately turn Daisey into a newt! He’s thought about that on many occasions!”

    But we haven’t permitted that for centuries.

    That said:

    It may be that what Serino thought about Zimmerman’s truthfulness may be relevant for some one or more limited purposes. By definition, those cannot include showing that Zimmerman really was truthful or evasive or whatever. But if there’s some really good reason why it’s important for the jury to know what Serino thought about Zimmerman’s state of mind, then Serino’s testimony might be relevant for that.

    And that’s clearly how defense counsel was, at least initially, trying to nibble around the edges of this subject.

    The whole line of questioning about “challenge interviews” was intended to create a factual predicate for why the jury ought to care, one way or another, about whether Serino did or didn’t believe Zimmerman. It was intended by the defense to create a framework from which it could argue as follows:

    “Judge, for the jury to understand the full context of the police investigation, the jury has to understand why the investigators chose to do some things, and why they chose not to do others. The prosecution has already opened the door to all this on direct, and now I’m entitled to complete the story. The prosecution brought out on direct that Investigator Serino decided, for example, not to arrange a longer or more rigorous or confrontational ‘challenge interview’ with Mr. Zimmerman. But the prosecution never let Serino explain why he did that. In defending Mr. Zimmerman, I should be allowed to show why Investigator Serino made the decision he did. And if he made that decision based on his own, that is, Investigator Serino’s own personal and subjective evaluation of Mr. Zimmerman’s truthfulness, that’s relevant to explain the context of the investigation — what it did and didn’t include, and just as importantly, why. And you can give a limiting instruction.”

    So the judge would allow the question and answer about what Serino thought Zimmerman was thinking, but the judge would tell the jury that they should only consider that testimony from Serino for the limited purpose of explaining how the investigation took place, and that Serino’s judgment about Zimmerman’s truthfulness is no evidence either way as to Zimmerman’s real state of mind, which will be for the jurors to decide at the end of the case.

    That is roughly how this ought to have been handled.

    But you only have that discussion and ruling and limiting instruction if the prosecution has first made a timely objection to the question which calls for Serino to opine about Zimmerman’s state of mind.

    If you don’t object, you waive your objection.

    Perhaps in bench conferences or other pretrial proceedings, the prosecution team had raised this issue and had somehow gotten a “running objection.”

    But this — the basic rules of witness competency and testimony — is the kind of thing that law school moot court students are expected to know and understand by their second week.

    It’s a bizarre trial.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:33 pm

  474. Oh: Apologies for leaving this out of what was an already way-too-long comment:

    Unless there’s something that saves the prosecution from having waived its objections by failing to make them timely (during the testimony), then the judge’s ruling today, and her statement to the jury striking that testimony, was error.

    But since the objection should have been sustained if it had been timely made — i.e., because the testimony (as presented, without limiting instruction) was incompetent — then the defendant can’t complain that he was improperly convicted on that basis.

    And being deprived of the chance to offer Serino’s opinion of Zimmerman’s state of mind for the limited purpose of explaining the scope of the investigation would be deemed too collateral an issue to count as a reversible error.

    Just a guess. Apologies again for the Beldar Wall-o’-Text™.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:37 pm

  475. Beldar, and everytime something “bizarre” happens from the bench, it aids the prosecution.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:38 pm

  476. Whoa, has anyone else seen this? Is this old news?

    The Sac Bee is reporting that Corey has been indicted by a grand jury: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/07/02/5539380/zimmerman-prosecutor-angela-corey.html

    The article claims it happened last week, but I’m only finding links to sources today.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:40 pm

  477. Mr Stone wrote:

    Instead of reaching for his gun, why didn’t this George Zimmerman person just call The Dana for advice ?

    That’s just it: he did. In real life, ’twas a dispatcher instead of me who answered the phone:

    Dispatcher: Are you following him?
    Mr Zimmerman: Yeah.
    Dispatcher: OK, we don’t need you to do that.

    Had he actually followed the dispatcher’s advice, which was very similar to what The Dana’s advice would have been, he wouldn’t be on trial, and he wouldn’t be facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind bars. Even if he is acquitted, his life will probably have been ruined. He has made himself virtually unemployable.

    I very much hope that you don’t think that Mr Zimmerman took a wise decision to continue to follow Mr Martin.

    Comment by The very realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:46 pm

  478. ratbeach, read carefully. That’s BS from Klayman. There is no such thing as a “citizen’s grand jury”.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:46 pm

  479. @474 ratbeach — My limited understanding is that that’s a political action group, not a real grand jury.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:47 pm

  480. Beldar, you make more sense when you’re being long-winded than most commenters, me included, do on a good day.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:48 pm

  481. I saw that link, ratbeach. It refers to a “Citizens’ Grand Jury”. There’s no such thing (or, at least, no such thing that carries any legal weight).

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (7c7e89) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:48 pm

  482. Had he actually followed the dispatcher’s advice, which was very similar to what The Dana’s advice would have been, he wouldn’t be on trial, and he wouldn’t be facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind bars.

    And had Trayvon Martin not reacted with violence when none was called for, he’d still be alive, and Zimmerman wouldn’t be on trial.

    You keep posting that Zimmerman “created” the situation. I disagree: it was created when Martin attacked, not a moment before.

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (7c7e89) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:50 pm

  483. You keep posting that Zimmerman “created” the situation. I disagree: it was created when Martin attacked, not a moment before.

    This

    Comment by JD (51d3cd) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:57 pm

  484. Some elementary understanding of the concept of Proximate Cause might help to clarify the issue of who caused what, although I have my doubts.

    (From the Free Legal Dictionary, on-line)

    Proximate cause is the primary cause of an injury. It is not necessarily the closest cause in time or space nor the first event that sets in motion a sequence of events leading to an injury. Proximate cause produces particular, foreseeable consequences without the intervention of any independent or unforeseeable cause. It is also known as legal cause.

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:58 pm

  485. Err, the proximate cause of a human death in this case was penetrating trauma from a gunshot.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:05 pm

  486. Beldar, thank you for your extensive, and highly concise, explanation of what did, or should have, transpired.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:14 pm

  487. What was the proximate cause of the physical combat?

    Comment by ropelight (03df4c) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:14 pm

  488. A full moon. Proximate cause is a civil torts concept. You do not see it in criminal law. There is an act and there is a state of mind. The consequences of that act, under that state of mind, are punishable.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:20 pm

  489. Oh, The Dana, you’re so good on so many issues.
    But hey, even Michael Jordan had an occasional bad game where he shot airballs.

    George Zimmerman is not on trial for following or not following Trayvon Martin. Neither is he on trial for abiding by what was asked of him by the dispatcher.
    Rather, he is on trial for the question of whether or not he used justifiable force in ending the MMA beating he was receiving by the hands of Trayvon Martin.

    When one is being pummelled like that, one’s adrenaline is running high and the notion of “fight or flight” kicks in.
    When one is on one’s back and getting pounded upon one’s head and face, one has a mere few seconds to make an informed decision about how to end the beating one is receiving. It is not the time to consult the editorial page of the NY Times—it is about self-preservation.

    Zimmerman had two choices on the menu—call the editorial page of the NY Times take the beating or end the beating by overpowering Martin. Apparently, Zimmerman couldn’t overpower Martin, so he pulled the trigger on his gun and ended the imminent threat to his own life.

    You can play Monday Morning Quarterback all you want, but George Zimmerman had to act very quickly (while he was still conscious) without the benefit of a TV timeout or instant replay or a consultation with the officiating crew.
    He had to act to preserve the threat to his own life, and I believe he did so justifiably.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:23 pm

  490. Zimmerman may not be a hero, but standing up to being railroaded by the State of Florida’s legal system is damn sure approaching the heroic.

    Exactly.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:25 pm

  491. I didn’t see the basis of the prosecution’s motion but a witness can’t invade the province of the jury – and saying that you “believe” the defendant is just that.

    Isn’t it a matter of professional judgment? He interrogates all sorts of people all the time, and most of them lie to him, so if in his professional estimation Zim was telling the truth that should count for something.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:27 pm

  492. The Sac Bee is reporting that Corey has been indicted by a grand jury:

    It’s a “citizens’ grand jury”. There’s no such thing. In other words, the story is bulldust. Larry Klayman is a nut.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:30 pm

  493. May 28th:
    The judge ruled that George Zimmerman’s defense team cannot mention Trayvon Martin’s suspension from school.

    Today:
    Prosecutors asked the judge to allow them to introduce school records showing Zimmerman took a class that addressed Florida’s self-defense law.

    – Can’t talk about Trayvon breaking the law in school, but we can talk about Zimmerman learning the law in school? Well, of course, because Zimmerman only learned the law just so he could attempt to skirt around it … later on … or something.

    Not quite sure how they’re going to convict Z of Murder2 by putting the self-defense law itself on trial.

    Comment by Icy (940358) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:35 pm

  494. With all the trepidation about the aftermath of a possible acquittal, I’m glad I never emptied all of the full mags I have in close proximity to my Personal Defense Weapon (spent a full evening during the R.King Riots loading those babies).

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:39 pm

  495. Beldar, why can’t Serino testify about his own state of mind, viz Zimmerman having convinced him of his truthfulness. Or see Serino as a sort of expert in mendacity, and in his expert opinion Zimmerman is not mendacious.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:39 pm

  496. Zimmerman took the beating fro about 30 to 45 seconds. He said that Taryvon spotted the gun.

    Now the only reason he wasn’t injured more is he was able

    1) To get to the grass from the sidewalk.

    2) To slow down the speed at which his head hit the sidewalk or grass.

    The closer he was to the ground the harder it was.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  497. Had he actually followed the dispatcher’s advice, which was very similar to what The Dana’s advice would have been, he wouldn’t be on trial, and he wouldn’t be facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind bars.

    He says he did follow the advice. What basis do you have for doubting his word?

    But suppose he hadn’t. He still shouldn’t be on trial, and the fact that he is on trial is a travesty. So the predicate cause for his being on trial would not be his alleged disregard of the dispatcher’s advice, but Khouri’s craven decision to try him.

    I very much hope that you don’t think that Mr Zimmerman took a wise decision to continue to follow Mr Martin.

    Supposing he made such a decision, I wouldn’t call it prudent, but I might call it brave, going beyond what’s required of him in order to do the right thing. If it had occurred to him that he was endangering himself and yet he had chosen to do it, I might even call it heroic. On what basis would you disagree with that?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:44 pm

  498. Oops, my fingers typed “predicate” instead of “proximate”

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:45 pm

  499. Milhouse, Sorino can testify about his own state of mind when and if his own state of mind is relevant. Sorino’s state of mind might be relevant to explain why the investigators did or didn’t do something, if that action or inaction by the investigators is important for some reason (and arguably here it is). But testimony from Sorino about what Sorino’s state of mind was at various stages of Sorino’s interactions with Zimmerman is not competent evidence to prove what Zimmerman’s state of mind was.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:47 pm

  500. Bah. Mangled that last sentence, which ought to have read: “But testimony from Sorino about what Zimmerman’s state of mind was at various stages of Sorino’s interactions with Zimmerman is not competent evidence to prove what Zimmerman’s state of mind was.”

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:51 pm

  501. askeptic, I think that there are elements in the MSM that want a riot upon an acquittal.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:52 pm

  502. Or better:

    “But testimony from Sorino about what Sorino’s state of mind was regarding Zimmerman’s state of mind at various stages of their interactions is not competent evidence to prove what Zimmerman’s state of mind was.”

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:53 pm

  503. Trying again: Beldar, why can’t the question go like this: Mr Sorino, you interrogated Mr Zimmerman several times, investigated him, and tried several ways to challenge his story. You have a lot of experience doing that with all sorts of suspect, many of whom have turned out to be guilty, but some of whom have turned out to be innocent. Is that not correct? Are liars not constantly trying things out on you, and are you not wise to their ways? Given that experience and expertise, what opinion did you form of Mr Zimmerman’s veracity in the story he told you and how he reacted to your questioning? In your professional opinion, was he telling the truth?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:55 pm

  504. I also found this . . . ‘curious’:
    Late in the morning the prosecution called Mark Osterman, a federal air marshal who described Zimmerman as “the best friend I’ve ever had.”
    He testified that he spoke with Zimmerman both the night of and the day after the shooting. Osterman later wrote a book about his recollections of what Zimmerman told him.
    Under questioning by de la Rionda, Osterman said that Zimmerman told him Martin had grabbed his gun during their struggle, but that Zimmerman was able to pull it away.
    That account is different from what Zimmerman told investigators in multiple interviews when he only said it appeared Martin was reaching for his gun prior to the shooting. He never told police the teen grabbed it.
    “I thought he had said he grabbed the gun,” Osterman said. “I believe he said he grabbed the gun.”

    – So, either way this demonstrates a consistent story that Trayvon was grabbing for the gun, but the prosecution somehow thinks they can use the ‘inconsistency’ of whether or not he actually ‘grabbed it’ as a means of discrediting Zimmerman’s statement? of casting ‘reasonable doubt’ as to whether or not Trayvon was grabbing for the gun at all?

    Sounds to me like a fairly thin & desperate line of attack on the part of the prosecution.

    Comment by Icy (940358) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:00 pm

  505. Also, to respond to this question from my friend Milhouse ():

    Isn’t it a matter of professional judgment? He interrogates all sorts of people all the time, and most of them lie to him, so if in his professional estimation Zim was telling the truth that should count for something.

    Do you really want to live in a society in which we permit the opinions of the police to be the basis for conviction, when those opinions are about what was or wasn’t inside someone else’s head? That quickly breaks down into, “Trust me, you should convict him because I’m a policeman and I know about these kind of things.”

    No, there are excellent reasons why the Anglo-American rules of evidence have long prevented that kind of testimony.

    The rules don’t prevent lawyers from nibbling around the edges, which is probably all defense counsel expected to get away with. He ought at best have expected just a little bit of wiggle room in adducing this testimony from Sorino for a limited purpose (why the scope of the investigation was what it was), with a limiting instruction (“Jurors, you must not consider the investigators’ evaluations of Zimmerman’s credibility for any purpose other than explaining the scope of the investigation, and it ought not influence you on your own decisionmaking regarding Zimmerman’s intentions and state of mind”), and very briefly (“Move along, counsel.”)

    What’s incredible to me is that the prosecution never objected. If I were grading a law school mock trial, I’d flunk a student for that.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:02 pm

  506. You can’t even ask a psychiatrist “In your professional opinion was he telling the truth?”

    Whether someone was or wasn’t telling the truth we leave to juries. There is no profession — not the police, not headshrinks, not lawyers, not spiritualists — who are competent to give opinion evidence on someone else’s truthfulness.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:05 pm

  507. We don’t allow machines to directly tell a jury whether or not the defendant is telling the truth, why people?

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:10 pm

  508. “…elements in the MSM that want a riot upon an acquittal…”

    They need to be careful about what they ask for…
    some of SoCal’s “finest” were caught in the cross-fire during the R.King “Insurrection”, they all had a very negative opinion about the experience.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:19 pm

  509. @SPQR, htom, and Chuck Bartowski

    Thanks for clarifying – I should have picked up on the “citizen grand jury” part. It seemed fishy since others were not picking up the story, though there has been much discussion about wrongdoings by Corey.

    Comment by ratbeach (91b261) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:20 pm

  510. askeptic, I can tell you that when the jury verdict is expected to be announced, I intend to be very very far away from any streets named “MLK”.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:25 pm

  511. 451. …Cops have a duty to provoke people acting suspiciously and they have a duty not to retreat from the possibility. Don’t equate Zimmerman to policeman. Zimmerman would have to do more than eat three dozen donuts a day to achieve that status.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/2/2013 @ 12:49 pm

    I’m using the term consistently as opposed to how the people who accuse GZ of provoking TM are using it.

    In Texas an individual can claim self-defense against a police officer if the police officer uses unlawful force.

    Section 9.31(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer’s presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c)

    (c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:

    (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and

    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer’s (or other person’s) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

    Cops have no more right to use unlawful force than anyone else (in many states but not all). Since that’s the only way GZ could have provoked TM, i.e. used or threatened the use of unlawful force, then in that sense cops have no more right to provoke people than other citizens.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:26 pm

  512. This should have preceded subsection (2):

    (b) The use of force against another is not justified:

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:28 pm

  513. SPQR, I programmed Ms. Garmin to avoid all streets designated as MLK; she wouldn’t let me out of the parking lot.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:34 pm

  514. askeptic, that joke went over my head.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:37 pm

  515. I think Chris Rock had an ironic riff on the subject,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:46 pm

  516. Beldar — what do you think tactically of the idea of going to the judge this morning with a motion to strike the question and answer, where the practical impact of doing so is that the judge has the question and answer read back so they hear it again, then tells them to no consider what they’ve just heard for a second time?

    Sometimes as a prosecutor its better to let that stuff go and then ARGUE in closing that the opinion is entitle to no weight or consideration for all the policy reasons you’ve articulated.

    But to call attention to it the way they did only leads me to again conclude these clowns have no idea what they are doing.

    Comment by shipwreckedcrew (5de044) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:46 pm

  517. The medical examiner, said that Zimmerman’s account of the fight cannot be true as he sustained very minor injuries

    I think this is what the prosecution was banking on, this is why she was at the end and they got the weak but necessary witnesses out there first.

    No or slight injuries, really no witnesses for the whole thing, not a good sign for the GZ easy acquittal team.

    this whole thing is a ness

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:51 pm

  518. EPWJ, your concern troll act got old years ago.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:53 pm

  519. shipwreckedcrew, my reaction was exactly the same as yours (#514 — 7/2/2013 @ 3:46 pm). They’ve created a potential appeal issue for Zimmerman (although I think ultimately not a winning one). They’ve reemphasized the testimony — and thereby highlighted to the jury the importance of that testimony, regardless of what the judge says. And in exchange, they gotten what was in effect no better than a limiting instruction would have been, but delivered so late as to be meaningless. Almost the worst of all worlds, and entirely self-inflicted.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:59 pm

  520. 461. A closed head in jury can be fatal without any external evidence.
    License to practice taken away, sanctioned by professional societies, sued for malpractice-
    Z can now pay his legal fees.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:01 pm

    I posted this on another thread. Two Russian contenders for the IBF light heavyweight title, Sergey Kovalev and Roman Simakov, squared off in Ekaterinaberg in December 2011. Sergey knocked Roman down in the sixth round. Here’s what happened in the seventh.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8epwlcUc2zU

    Kovalev knocked Simakov down again; Simakov got back up but within a few seconds lapsed into a coma from which he never regained consciousness, and died three days later. And there are no external injuries. The video is deceptive because even though Simakov had just as much brutal punching power as Kovalev does, he wasn’t as good a boxer. It was the accumulation of blows he took during the fight and not just any one of those on the video that killed him.

    I sure as hell wouldn’t wait until I had enough visible damage to satisfy any of the people dismissing GZ’s wounds as insignificant before using deadly force.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:01 pm

  521. Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 3:37 pm

    White Liberal Guilt went a little bit overboard in renaming streets for the Rev. King.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:02 pm

  522. Streets and schools are better named for Dr. King than for Barack H. Obama in my opinion.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:06 pm

  523. Milhouse wrote:

    I very much hope that you don’t think that Mr Zimmerman took a wise decision to continue to follow Mr Martin.

    Supposing he made such a decision, I wouldn’t call it prudent, but I might call it brave, going beyond what’s required of him in order to do the right thing. If it had occurred to him that he was endangering himself and yet he had chosen to do it, I might even call it heroic. On what basis would you disagree with that?

    Considering the result of the incident, something clearly not in dispute, it’s pretty difficult to call it anything other than foolish.

    Of course, Mr Zimmerman couldn’t know, in advance, what the end would be, but he was advised, by the 911 dispatcher, that the police did not need him to continue to follow Mr Martin. He took a real risk, against the advice of the professionals, and it sure did turn out badly.

    The question you raise is the proper one: was it the right thing for Mr Zimmerman to do to continue to follow Mr Martin? He called the police, and was told, by a (supposedly) trained dispatcher that the police did not need him to continue taking the action he indicated he was taking. The police were supposed to be on the way, meaning that Mr Zimmerman knew that people trained to handle these things were coming, yet he decided to continue to keep his untrained self in the situation. Had he seen some evidence that Mr Martin was about to commit a crime of violence against another individual, it would have been the right thing to do to try to stop that, but all he saw was a man he believed to be suspicious, possibly casing the place, but not taking any actions which presented an imminent threat to anybody. Stupidity is not bravery, it’s just stupidity.

    Comment by The Dana who examines the facts (af9ec3) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:08 pm

  524. Senatus Populusque Romanus wrote:

    askeptic, I think that there are elements in the MSM that want a riot upon an acquittal.

    Want, or simply expect? I certainly don’t want one, but I’d bet a case of Mountain Dew that we get one.

    Comment by The inquisitive Dana (af9ec3) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:11 pm

  525. Inquisitive Dana, I think that not reporting on the weaknesses of the prosecution’s case by MSM is going to contribute to rioting if there is an acquittal. I think that’s deliberate.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:13 pm

  526. No or slight injuries, really no witnesses for the whole thing, not a good sign for the GZ easy acquittal team.

    I’m pretty sure the state lacking evidence means reasonable doubt to their charges.

    I also am pretty sure I’ve seen photo proof that “no injuries” is not a fair way to describe his injuries.

    Of course, it is not correct that someone has to show any injuries to claim self defense. The state’s case includes a witness who says she thinks it’s possibly George wouldn’t have survived without his defense. The state’s case has conceded that this was so serious an attack that George may not have survived.

    Comment by Dustin (4b596e) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:22 pm

  527. Yet another reason why prosecutors routinely present self-defense and other justification claims to grand juries is because grand jury proceedings are secret. That secrecy has long and deep historical roots, and it serves a variety of different policies. For purposes of this context, though, with a potentially unpopular defendant being hounded by metaphorical and quite literal mobs, though, our forefathers were quite content with permitting secret proceedings of responsible citizens, acting together on sworn evidence and their own oaths, the power to free that defendant without fear of compulsion or reprisal.

    Relying on a grand jury to “no-bill” on the basis of self-defense — as compared to leaving it to the trial (petit) jury to return a “not guilty” verdict — avoids a public trial that there’s insufficient evidence to justify even holding in the first place.

    That’s how, and where, and when, this case ought to have been resolved. It wasn’t, and the reason for that is the most crass and shameful of racial politics.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:23 pm

  528. 475. …I very much hope that you don’t think that Mr Zimmerman took a wise decision to continue to follow Mr Martin.

    Comment by The very realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/2/2013 @ 1:46 pm

    He didn’t, very uninformed Dana.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c9_1372546233

    The Zimmerman reenactment video.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:27 pm

  529. dustin,

    He was described by a highly respected national reputed chief medical examiner as a liar, that he sustained very minor injuries and not consistent with his story.

    Its over

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:27 pm

  530. Zimmerman was acting in his capacity as a member of Neighborhood Watch, which mostly operates under the same guidelines as Un-armed Security, where the watchword is to Observe & Report.
    Well, he was Observing by following TM, and he was Reporting by calling the Police Dispatcher.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:27 pm

  531. Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:06 pm

    Exactly!

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:30 pm

  532. Well about that witness;

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3038359/posts

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:42 pm

  533. Some further details;

    http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-06-27/story/jacksonville-medical-examiner-has-history-controversy

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:44 pm

  534. Actually, it’s remarkable she was ever hired here;

    http://search.lubbockonline.com/fast-elements.php?type=standard&profile=lubbock&querystring=%22VALERIE%20RAO%22

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 4:47 pm

  535. narcisco,

    sheriffs arguing with coroners? never ever been heard – shocking!!!!!!!!!!!

    omg, quick someone tell all the medical examiners that they need to ask the country bumpkin sheriffs how and when the person died and forget decades of experience

    again happens all the time

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:01 pm

  536. E.PWJ, isn’t it looooong past time you left this blog community?

    Nobody is buying your act anymore.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:10 pm

  537. It is striking how deep the fraud, isn’t it Steve,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:16 pm

  538. Headline at Mediate: “As George Zimmerman Prosecution Implodes, A Media Invested In His Guilt Grows More Shrill”
    – Wheels coming off?

    Comment by Icy (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:23 pm

  539. Yes, narciso, it is.

    http://www.fox30jax.com/content/topstories/story/Former-employee-speaks-out-about-medical-examiner/fOK-GYLiMESM11Hjs5EpzQ.cspx

    Weinstein says Rao was hostile, even verbally abusive about her weight. “At the time, I was very heavy, 300 pounds. She referred to me as a Big Mac,” said Weinstein.

    Weinstein’s is just one of many complaints we found in new documents Tuesday. According to an internal memo from the city, Rao called an employee a “redneck” and violated city polices numerous times. In many cases, we found Rao was never disciplined. We even found the city looked at having Rao removed.

    It all stems from years of complaints about Dr. Rao’s unsanitary procedures, washing her feet in the autopsy sink, using bare hands during procedures, and even accusations of exposing doctors to deadly diseases.

    We went to the mayor’s office to find out what action is being taken right now.

    “We’re already working on improving the structure. There’s $1.7 million in upgrades from the roof of the room,” said mayor’s spokesman Dave DeCamp.

    DeCamp says their hands are tied because Rao is not a city employee, but one of the state. Decamp says that’s why they’re looking at changing how the office operates. They are going to do a study on whether privatization or another plan would work for the office.

    Highly respected, indeed.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:23 pm

  540. steve57

    Happyfeet has a problem, you are an enabler of that.

    But from someone who mocks and scorns the death of a aviator in the line of duty – your personal character was established by yourself long ago – nothing to see here

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:25 pm

  541. Fasten your seat belts. It’s going to be a bumpy night.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:32 pm

  542. E.PWJ:
    The reason it’s not “over” is that everyone on the jury knows that (with a very few exceptions like Evil Knievel or G. Gordon Liddy or Mike Tyson) someone who calls a broken nose a “very minor injury” is simply lying. I imagine they were all sitting there thinking “it’s easy to call it ‘very minor’ when it’s not your nose that’s being broken or your head being bashed on the concrete”.

    The fact that the prosecution didn’t call the medical examiner who did the actual medical examination of Zimmerman should also make them raise their eyebrows.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:33 pm

  543. Isn’t that odd, Doc, it’s almost as if the fix were in,:

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:35 pm

  544. Steve57

    Autopsy rooms can be contaminated and with time sensitive procedures washing off your body in a sink is a not unheard of practice.

    Especially in backwater jurisdictions where budgets for gloves, protective clothing, paper shoes, proper instruments are lacking for the volume many of these small municipalities have.

    not a good day for Z.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:43 pm

  545. EPW Idiot, I not only didn’t scorn LT Hultgreen’s death I said the Navy was culpable for causing it. She’d be alive today if the training command had listened to her flight instructor instead of listening to the CNO directing them to beat the Air Froce and put a woman in a fighter cockpit first.

    As a matter of fact the relevant officers admitted exactly that when they were deposed during the course of Lohrenz v. Donnelly. In which former Navy LT Carey Lohrenz sued
    Elaine Donnelly of the Center for Military Readiness for libel for stating the only reason she passed flight school was due to affirmative action.

    Lohrenz’s case against Donnelly was dismissed. Donnelly was greatly aided by the testimony of former and serving naval officers who admitted that they lowered standards for women due to pressure from DC. That and the fact Lohrenz flunked carrier qualification while attempting to get aboard the Abraham Lincoln. The air operations officer, a man I know, finally had to send her ashore because she was a danger to herself and others.

    Lohrenz didn’t get to kill herself and other crewmembers because other people stopped her. She wouldn’t stop herself. She wouldn’t even listen to the LSO. Any potential naval aviator who doesn’t follow the LSO’s instructions does not in fact deserve to be a naval aviator.

    Something that the flight instructors said about Hultgreen. She’d be alive today, or rather she wouldn’t have been killed in that particular accident, had the Navy

    So in addition to being tired of your act I believe we’re all tired of your lies.

    You really do argue like a psychotic ex-girlfriend. There is no limit to the number of subjects you don’t know a thing about that you’re unwilling to distort and become hysterical over. You are well past the point of earning nothing but contempt and mockery.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:47 pm

  546. He was described by a highly respected national reputed chief medical examiner as a liar, that he sustained very minor injuries and not consistent with his story.

    Its over

    Someone got into the wacky weed again. This synopsis is wrong on soooooooo many levels.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:49 pm

  547. Autopsy rooms can be contaminated and with time sensitive procedures washing off your body in a sink is a not unheard of practice.

    Yes, contaminated. Which is why its not a good idea to perform procedures without gloves, let alone eat in the autopsy room.

    Two other complaints among a long list of others against Corey’s pet ME.

    And Jacksonville FL isn’t a backwater.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:49 pm

  548. The jury, while sequestered now, were living in America and could not have been oblivious to the outsized hue and cry at the time of the shooting and the wall to wall national coverage of a local “crime” story which was so strongly weighted against Zimmerman. The trajectory of the actual trial they are witnessing must quite a surprise for them in that regard. It’s called cognitive dissonance. I hope they know how to deal with it.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  549. DR weevil

    his nose was not broken. This is the problem, we get imperfect information, like he was beaten, um, no he wasn’t. Trayvon was acting suspicious, only Z reported that.

    Trayvon punched him and threw him to the ground, again, only Z we have his word for it.

    A witness maybe 10seconds and saw no blows couldn’t have, it was raining, and it was dark.

    Then one shot, dead kid.

    This case sucks because you have a guy who disobeyed an order from a law enforcement official and confronted someone while being armed

    We still don’t know what happened and never ever will. One thing is certain, Z lied about getting his head slammed repeatedly on the concrete.

    Of course everyone’s going to say hey that’s not true – but its the end all of this

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  550. * had the Navy acted with any amount of regard for her life and the lives of those around her.*

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  551. She evaluated GZ by looking at pictures?

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:54 pm

  552. 547. This case sucks because you have a guy who disobeyed an order from a law enforcement official and confronted someone while being armed

    We still don’t know what happened and never ever will. One thing is certain, Z lied about getting his head slammed repeatedly on the concrete.

    Of course everyone’s going to say hey that’s not true – but its the end all of this

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:52 pm

    More lies. Is that the first thing they teach you at the Psychotic Ex-Girlfriend School of Logic and Argumentation?

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:54 pm

  553. Yes, JD, that’s how she did it.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:56 pm

  554. his nose was not broken. This is the problem, we get imperfect information,

    So you know better than the doctor that actually treated him?

    “We” get imperfect information?!?!?! You seem to have the market cornered on that.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:56 pm

  555. Autopsy rooms can be contaminated and with time sensitive procedures washing off your body in a sink is a not unheard of practice.

    Not in the sink used for be autopsy. Good Allah.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:57 pm

  556. steve57

    Impugning a highly trained medical professional doesn’t negate the fact that Z said his head was being repeatedly slammed onto concrete and that’s why he acted.

    tiny dribbles of blood on his bare head from 2 bandaid worthy booboos.

    They didn’t need any medical professionals

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:58 pm

  557. Trayvon punched him and threw him to the ground, again, only Z we have his word for it.

    And the injuries sustained by GZ consistent with his version.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:58 pm

  558. OK E.PWJ fuck you. You are a lying piece of shit: the proverbial turd in Patterico’s otherwise-delicious punchbowl. How many times do you have to be reminded that “You don’t have to do that” is NOT NOT NOT an order not to do that? When you write that GZ “disobeyed an order from a law enforcement official” you are simply lying. The rest of what you write is at best shamefully tendentious crap. Do you get paid to write what you write, or do you wallow in filth just for the joy of ruining a better man’s site?

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:59 pm

  559. A witness maybe 10seconds and saw no blows couldn’t have, it was raining, and it was dark.

    His testimony was that he saw many blows being delivered in an MMA ground and pound fashion. If you were to be accurate LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL you would note be said be did not see the actual point of impact.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:01 pm

  560. This case sucks because you have a guy who disobeyed an order from a law enforcement official and confronted someone while being armed

    Since when did civilian dispatch operators become law enforcement officials?

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:02 pm

  561. 549. She evaluated GZ by looking at pictures?

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:54 pm

    She had to. She’s the ME for Duval county up by the border with Georgia.

    Sanford is in Seminole county down by Orlando. So she isn’t even the ME who did the autopsy on TM.

    I guess Corey couldn’t count on the ME in Seminole county doing her bidding.

    And what the hey is an ME doing opining on a living person’s injuries anyway?

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:03 pm

  562. One thing is certain, Z lied about getting his head slammed repeatedly on the concrete.

    Okay, I will bite. How are you certain of this? His injuries are consistent with his version. Even the police thought so.

    You literally had a mistake, lie, or outright fabrication in every “paragraph” of that comment.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:04 pm

  563. JD

    Eh, from a guy who to the bitter end believe that Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test – cause his lawyer said so….

    his nose wasn’t broken, it was a tiny bit bloody, tender, but not broken.

    Scream away tonight guys – its over – I really thought Z had contusions, lacerations, broken nose, blacken eyes, nope just a trickle, and two little scratches on his scalp

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:05 pm

  564. MSNBC Panel Concedes Prosecution’s Case Is Weak, ‘Little Hope’ Zimmerman Will Be Convicted

    Comment by I.cy (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:06 pm

  565. Steve – was she really appointed by Corey?

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:06 pm

  566. JD–There are prolly a bunch of other “highly respected national reputed chief medical examiner(s)” who can diagnose injuries from a picture too. I imagine the defense will be availing themselves of several of them.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:06 pm

  567. Eh, from a guy who to the bitter end believe that Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test – cause his lawyer said so….

    Jesus f@cking Christ you are a liar. That was not and is not and never will be my position.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:07 pm

  568. What is E.PWJ’s evidence that GZ’s nose was not broken? Anything like the evidence that it was “a tiny bit bloody”? We’ve all seen the color picture: that more than a “tiny bit” of blood. So why does E.PWJ lie? Does he work for the prosecution? Or does he do it for pure love of lying?

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:07 pm

  569. his nose wasn’t broken, it was a tiny bit bloody, tender, but not broken.

    Did you ask him? How do you presume to know better than the doctor that evaluated him?

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:08 pm

  570. The point is it wasn’t Mr. Bao who was the medical examiner, yes she was JD, then Scott confirmed her for a permanent slot,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:08 pm

  571. Lied in EWPWTFO’s world means, well, anything yo want it to mean according to the Psychotic Ex-Girlfriend’s School of Logic and Argumentation.

    In this case it seems to mean that he “lied” because GZ’s story doesn’t match up to some idjit’s fabrications who never examined him.

    Which means of course that the people who did examine him, such as Linzee Folgate are lying to as they’ve testified his story is consistent with receiving multiple blows.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:09 pm

  572. Scream away tonight guys – its over –

    The last time the village idiot claimed something was over was when he claimed Perry had the nomination wrapped up. Or was it when he claimed Dewhurst would easily beat Cruz? Or Scozafava was the conservative choice? Or the 2,000,000 jooooooooooos in Iran? Or Christians outnumbering Muslims in UAE? I get so confuzzled.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:11 pm

  573. Eric, do you know Dr. Rao personally? You seem to be extremely invested in this particular aspect of the trial.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:11 pm

  574. KRAY

    KRAY

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:12 pm

  575. 563. JD–There are prolly a bunch of other “highly respected national reputed chief medical examiner(s)” who can diagnose injuries from a picture too. I imagine the defense will be availing themselves of several of them.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:06 pm

    I hope they do. A parade of highly respected nationally reputed chief medical examiners testifying one after the other that not even a mediocre ME would testify about injuries to a person without examining them. To do so from pictures makes you wonder what Caribbean diploma mill gave Rao her medical degree.

    Sort of like how the defense sound experts eviscerated the state’s supposed experts. Apparently they got a couple of part-time sound studio engineers when real experts laughed the prosecutors out of their labs.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:15 pm

  576. Go back a bit more than three years ago on this blog. EPWJ is the one that claimed that he had seen the cellphone video of the Border Patrol agent shooting at the youth at a border crossing. And that that video showed the agent pursuing the youth into Mexican territory to shoot them. EPWJ gave detailed descriptions of what the video showed …

    When it showed no such thing. And it was clear that in fact EPWJ had never seen the actual video in question.

    That’s the very long standing reputation of EPWJ as a dishonest concern troll.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:18 pm

  577. If his nose was broken he had the right to defend himself, and if it wasn’t broken then he didn’t have that right?

    Comment by I.cy (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:19 pm

  578. EPWJ is, was and always will be … a concern troll.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:19 pm

  579. Seriously.

    On the topic of EPWJ being a concern troll – Can I get an “AMEN!” from the audience?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:23 pm

  580. ‘So Say We All”

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:25 pm

  581. I forgot a out the throwing metaphorical pebbles being a death threat.

    Comment by JD (620716) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:28 pm

  582. If one actually … oh I don’t know … watches the video of the cross examination of Rao lets say. Then one sees the defense shred her credibility as she refuses to even acknowledge injuries in photos of Zimmerman that other medical people have already specifically noted and pointed out for the jury.

    Rao might be “respected” in the concern trolls fetid imagination but not to anyone who paid attention to the cross examination. Now she’s a clown.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:34 pm

  583. whats a shame is that well meaning good people here, were used, played by this guy. The MSM is doing their best to make this a race issue, not caring what really happened, but used this as just an in your face opportunity to seize guns and instances like this plays into their hands why couldn’t he just have stayed in the f’in truck.

    but I was shocked at the pictures of his face – oh man a big fat nothing – a zero -

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:34 pm

  584. 576. Seriously.

    On the topic of EPWJ being a concern troll – Can I get an “AMEN!” from the audience?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:23 pm

    577. ‘So Say We All”

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:25 pm

    EPWTFO! is a brazen, congenital liar of a concern troll.

    He said:

    538. …But from someone who mocks and scorns the death of a aviator in the line of duty – your personal character was established by yourself long ago – nothing to see here

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 5:25 pm

    The exchange he’s referring to took place on this thread:

    http://patterico.com/2013/04/04/rihanna-latest-swatting-victim/

    And here’s me mocking and scorning LT Hultgreen’s death:

    9. the naval academys top ten naval engineering grads were all female

    Comment by EPWJ (b3df72) — 4/5/2013 @ 6:34 am

    I don’t doubt that for a second. Some of the finest officers I’ve ever worked for or with have been women.

    I can rattle off their qualities that made them fine officers. Not to forget about some pretty stellar enlisted personnel. But not one was stronger or faster than I was. I’m sure there are such women. I never met one. Most of the time that didn’t matter. I respected them for a host of other reasons. And the reasons I could give you would be real reasons. I don’t see any need to make up things that aren’t true and pretend I respected them for those. Which from my perspective would be showing them disrespect.

    I think it’s justified to exclude women from certain fields for a number of reasons. One is just how the politics work. It’s not a perfect example, as it’s very clear that there are many capable female pilots, but the example of LT Kara Hultgreen illustrates the phenomenon.

    She was killed because all the men who should have looked after her welfare and washed her out of flight training were instead focused on what was instead good for their careers. And at the time that meant put a woman into the cockpit of a fighter before the Air Force did so.

    The only man who was actually looking out for her was her flight instructor that gave her several serious downs. Just one of which if the pilot had been a man would have flunked him. The instructor was seen as an obstructionist and his determination to end her career as a naval aviator ended his own. He was tragically vindicated when she killed herself making one of the exact same mistakes she had made in flight training. I believe he was forced out because when he finally felt compelled to act (to save the life of another female who was not qualified to fly F-14s; the IG report found that when she flew she “consistently scared everyone” except herself) he had blow the whistle by leaking training records the Navy concluded violated their privacy.

    But he said if he was walking by a building that burst into flames he would drag you out even if you were in your underwear and not worry about your privacy concerns…

    Clearly I have no respect for LT Hultgreen.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:35 pm

  585. I meant the last line sarcastically.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  586. Eric if you keep this up Steve57 will be forced to bring out the big artillery and call you a clueless baby duck. Be forewarned. You are on very thin ice here.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:38 pm

  587. When I wrote the paragraph, I initially used the word “following,” but deliberately changed it to “stalking,” because it is precisely the word I intended to use and meaning I wished to convey.

    Dana, “stalking” at best — or if used in an innocent manner — can be defined as “to pursue by tracking stealthily,” which one can say was what Zimmerman did with Martin. But that also reminds me of an English class I took years ago where a textbook’s brief definition of “wench” — and which was laughed at and derided by the teacher — was “young girl.”

    Your cynicism about Zimmerman’s actions and activity plays straight into the hands of ambulance-chasing lawyers and money-grubbing spin doctors everywhere. It’s the reason people can be so easily manipulated and find themselves increasingly risk-averse (or a form of political correctness gone berserk), with feelings of “don’t get involved!” and “mind your own business or else you’ll be sued!”

    In this thread, under this topic, I hereby bequeath you with the screen name of “The Nidal-Hasan-ized Dana.”

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:39 pm

  588. 583. Eric if you keep this up Steve57 will be forced to bring out the big artillery and call you a clueless baby duck. Be forewarned. You are on very thin ice here.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:38 pm

    That’s when I’m being nice, elissa.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:43 pm

  589. EPWJ is, was and always will be … a concern troll.

    He merely is afflicted with what quite a few people throughout modern society are infected by: Compassion for compassion’s sake. That ailment is a major reason why I suspect he came under the spell and charms of Dede Scozzafava awhile back.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:45 pm

  590. No, Mark, look at the history of his comments in this thread alone. He plays this game of wavering back and forth until he picks a moment to say: “Aha! Now we see that I was right all along to be concerned!“.

    Its a f’ing concern troll act.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:48 pm

  591. aaand on to an easy thousand

    But I got two emails from my Jakarta children, through pestilence, the govt not letting me in, volcanoes, 2 tsunami alerts, dengue fevers, 4 hour traffic jams, crazy household staff drivers that fall asleep while driving – they thrive without me, so everyone has apparently enjoyed my wisdom enough for the evening.

    Have a good evening everyone.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:48 pm

  592. ROFL and the concern troll mimics brave Sir Robin.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:49 pm

  593. SPQR

    I am hardly an act, crazy, looney, self inflated, moronic, I admit but not an act.

    Comment by E.PWJ (1ea63e) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:50 pm

  594. Of course, an honest man would have answered some of the specific questions he’s been asked before signing off. I guess we’ll never know why he thinks GZ’s nose was not broken.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:03 pm

  595. On the topic of EPWJ being a concern troll – Can I get an “AMEN!” from the audience?
    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:23 pm

    – More of a ‘concern idiot’.

    Comment by I.cy (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:11 pm

  596. Ann Althouse’s theory, which Steve57 posted above, is looking better (as in plausible, not ethical):

    June 29, 2013
    Now playing in the Theater of Racial Reconciliation: the George Zimmerman trial.

    …Watching much of the trial these last 3 days, I’ve come to believe that the prosecution is conducting a theatrical performance in racial reconciliation. It wasn’t politically easy to decline to prosecute Zimmerman, even though the evidence showed he could not be convicted, so this prosecution was mounted to demonstrate to the public that Zimmerman should not be convicted. I’m not condoning this use of the power to prosecute. I’m simply observing what is happening. I think the trial is theater, and if it’s done right — with people like Crump contributing what they can — the people who got stirred up in Act I can experience catharsis.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:13 pm

  597. Its a f’ing concern troll act.

    It’s actually worse than that, SPQR.

    “Troll” implies a person isn’t really being honest with his opinions, but I think EPWJ and Dana are manifesting a major reason why our culture has become so deranged. So deranged that an anti-American, pro-Islamic-spouting extremist was tolerated by his fellow US military enlistees until a fateful day of murder and mayhem. Not much better is that chaplains in that same military now feel either restrained or forbidden from voicing something as basic and traditional as “marriage should be between a man and woman.”

    We have met the enemy, and he is us.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:13 pm

  598. I am hardly an act, crazy, looney, self inflated, moronic, I admit but not an act.

    – He’s more of a ‘method’ guy.

    Comment by I.cy (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:15 pm

  599. Q: Dr Rao, is it medically possible for severe injury to occur from even a single blow of the head to a concrete sidewalk?

    A: Yes

    Q: Well then, wouldn’t it be prudent for someone whose head is being bashed into a concrete sidewalk by another to stop the bashing immediately by any means possible?

    Comment by Calfed (5b899d) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:16 pm

  600. E.PWJ….

    GZ approaches TM, verbally confronts him, after civilain dispatcher tells him to get away. TM, surprised, scared, in an unknown area, backs away, verbally confusing comments from him. GZ, approaches again, and, TM, in fear, reacts, punching GZ once in the face. GZ falls, hits his head, causing a cut, and TM, in fear, jumps on top of him and begins to yell for help. GZ tells TM to get off, but TM does not. TM continues to yell fo help. (I know: I’m possibly twisting some facts here, but, bear with me.). Now, here it gets a bit more convoluted. TM is yelling for help, sitting on top of another man. Why is he yelling for help? Only two logical reasons: 1) he wants police/citizen help because he is in fear, or 2) he wants his friends to come to his aid. GM is on the ground, under a man he possibly already fears, and hears the man he fears calling for help, after being punched in the face by this man, the same man who won’t get off of him, and is now yelling for help. GZ knows the police are aware of him, and knowing they are possibly coming, has a new problem: why is this guy who punched me in the face and is sitting on me calling for help? Only two logical reasons: 1) he wants police/citizen help because he is in fear, or 2) he wants his friends to come to his aid. GM picks the latter, IN FEAR FOR HIS LIFE since TM has knocked him down, and is yelling for help (a logical conclusion because law-abiding citizens do not normally punch someone in the face and THEN yell for the police) and, in that fear, draws and shoots TM. I am assuming that the info for angle of trajectory and closeness of the shot match this scenario.

    My question for you, E.PWJ, is how would this not be self-defense, justifiable homicide, and still meet all of your (ridiculous) points? I believe I have covered nearly all of them, using what I believe is acceptable versions of the same known evidence.

    I await your meaningless response, but, at the same time, I condemn myself for feeding the concern troll.

    Sincerely…..

    Comment by reff who wants to be sincere like the Dana who,is sincere (4dcda2) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:18 pm

  601. Beldar, why can’t Serino testify about his own state of mind…
    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/2/2013 @ 2:39 pm

    Whether Serino can testify in court about his own state of mind or not, the state of mind for various others could use some consideration…

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:42 pm

  602. This trial is a travesty, and the best you can say for the prosecution is that they are conducting it in a manner calculated to lead to justice — i.e., wholly incompetently and in a way that serves the defense.
    Our host

    That is an interesting thought. But I would never trust a jury to do the right thing with my limited jury experience.

    So, do some really think the prosecution went along because they were forced to from above and are doing their best to show the faults of an already bad case?

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:50 pm

  603. I don’t think they are throwing the case deliberately.

    I just think they are doing a terrible job, and in my view (since I sympathize with Zimmerman) I think that will more likely lead to an acquittal, which in this case will serve justice.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:55 pm

  604. Patterico, but you are becoming less certain that she is not throwing the case, aren’t you?

    Comment by SPQR (d562e7) — 7/2/2013 @ 7:59 pm

  605. I agree with Patterico. It seems far-fetched that they’d try Zimmerman to lose on purpose. But that seems to be what Althouse thinks.

    And the prosecution has done so bad that it makes you wonder.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:00 pm

  606. If the judge has an ounce of courage, it will be a directed verdict of not guilty. This might be enough to shut down the riots and shut up the dead-enders.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:03 pm

  607. Thank you for the clarification, kind host.

    But judging by what I’ve seen of the lawyer commentary here and referred to from elsewhere, they seem to be holding a clinic on how not to prosecute a case.

    It seems peculiar that for a case given so much attention by the higher ups it is being run so poorly.
    But then there are lots of peculiarities about this case,
    and sometimes people over-think something and get silly instead of taking a basic approach.
    IDK, I just hope Z is found innocent and cool heads prevail, not the NBPP.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:04 pm

  608. 606. If the judge has an ounce of courage, it will be a directed verdict of not guilty. This might be enough to shut down the riots and shut up the dead-enders.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:03 pm

    Then there won’t be a directed verdict.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:10 pm

  609. If the people who are prosecuting Zimmerman, and those who foisted a trial onto him to begin with, are decent, honorable and humane, they should have — or must have — pangs of great shame and regret about this whole debacle. IOW, they would unconsciously be throwing the trial. But, again, that’s assuming they’re compassionate, civilized
    human beings.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:11 pm

  610. It’s been a ‘travesty of a mockery of a sham’ from the getgo, Crump had Julison the publicist float the talking points to a host of reporters, and officials at organization like think progress, the video ,audio and transcripts were either omitted or altered, in that milieu, the the likes of the NBPP,Spike Lee, et al, were allowed to run rampant,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:12 pm

  611. people all over the whirl – errybody! – join hands join hands we’ll have a love trial love trial

    pam biondi justice is a warm hug on a cold cold miami night I tell you what

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:14 pm

  612. ooh yeah let’s do this thang I’m a feeling it

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:17 pm

  613. Dana, I wanted to say that I appreciate you bringing a different view in a respectful and intelligent manner. It is a much more valuable contribution to this discussion than the insults you’ve taken have been.

    I don’t agree with you, but oh well.

    Comment by Dustin (4b596e) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:19 pm

  614. I don’t think the prosecutors are “throwing the case.”

    I think these prosecutors got marching orders to get a conviction from someone who didn’t know or care about the evidence, including the evidence of self-defense.

    I think that’s why they decided to skip presenting the case to a grand jury after having already announced plans to do so.

    I think they are hoping against hope for a defense mistake or some sort or miracle or deus ex machina, and/or for a jury that will ignore the exculpatory evidence and excuse the lack of inculpatory evidence. But given what the key witnesses — like the police who investigated the homicide — had already said and were likely to say at trial, that was an extremely thin hope.

    And I think all that’s left to them is a portion of that, the hope that the jury will convict no matter what evidence supports self-defense, and no matter how little evidence tends to negate it.

    But make no mistake: Anyone who has the first clue about competency of lawyers in general, and of prosecutors in particular, must agree that this is a shoddy, shameful, ridiculously bad job of prosecuting a case. Win or lose, this team has covered itself in ignominy.

    From what I’ve seen, my strong impression is that any fair-minded judge would direct a verdict on grounds that even if there is some shred or scintilla of evidence that might support a finding that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense, nevertheless, from the evidence adduced through the close of the prosecution’s case-in-chief, no rational jury could find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, per Jackson v. Virginia, 443 U.S. 307 (1979). But whether that will actually happen or not is anyone’s guess.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:24 pm

  615. 605. I agree with Patterico. It seems far-fetched that they’d try Zimmerman to lose on purpose. But that seems to be what Althouse thinks.

    And the prosecution has done so bad that it makes you wonder.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:00 pm

    Just so you know I don’t agree with Althouse’s conclusion. I agree it certainly looks like the prosecution is trying to throw the case.

    But then you’d have to watch the trial itself, and not watch what the media is saying about the trial, to know that. And the impression the MFM is giving is that it’s going much better for the prosecution than it is.

    For instance there’s this AP report:

    http://news.yahoo.com/prosecutors-attack-zimmerman-story-several-ways-225209162.html;_ylt=As2h9LJPlk_D7He7e2eoFn0JVux_;_ylu=X3oDMTJhbDRjbWt0BG1pdANBVFQgMyBTdG9yeSBKdW1ib3Ryb24gSG9tZSBDYWNoZWQEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwNNZWRpYUF0dFdpZGdldHJvbkFzc2VtYmx5;_ylg=X3oDMTFkcW51ZGliBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaA–;_ylv=3

    Prosecutors attack Zimmerman story several ways

    So there’s no way Althouse can be right about any racial reconciliation coming from this. Even if that’s what the state intended from this farce, without the cooperation of the MFM that won’t happen. And the MFM ain’t cooperating.

    So no matter what happens inside the courtroom the racial lynch mob led by Sharpton et al will be convinced (or easily be convinced by race pimps like Sharpton) Zimmerman was let off because he’s white and a black man can’t get justice in this country.

    I still think the ultimate result ignorant left will demand the repeal of racist stand your ground laws. Another thing they don’t know about, like what happened in the courtroom last week and into this. They don’t need to know about them. They’ll just keep portraying them as a license to kill black and brown kids with impunity.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:25 pm

  616. I posted these up towards the top, but I think they need reposting after the incredibly inept and inaccurate testimony that was given by a paid hack.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/18/brain.injury/

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/intracranial-hematoma/DS00330/DSECTION=causes

    I think I trust the Mayo Clinic a lot more than some supposed doctor that got her license from the Jakarta Mail Order Physicians School.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:26 pm

  617. By the way, if a prosecutor realizes mid-trial that his evidence can’t support a conviction, the way to handle that isn’t to “throw the case” and let the defendant win. It’s to dismiss the case; since jeopardy has attached, that dismissal would be with prejudice to retrying the same charges later, and would have the same effect as an acquittal. Prosecutors have special duties beyond those of ordinary private advocates.

    And yes, this actually does happen in real life — rarely, and it should only be rarely (because a thorough investigation earlier ought usually to reveal when a case is too thin to prosecute).

    This isn’t a question of “compassion,” it’s a question of the canons of legal ethics, including some that are specific and particular to prosecutors.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:31 pm

  618. It isn’t about truth, Steve, it’s about their agenda, the facts get in the way,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:33 pm

  619. I think these prosecutors got marching orders to get a conviction from someone who didn’t know or care about the evidence, including the evidence of self-defense.

    Beldar, perhaps I’m being naive but if these prosecutors are merely being good Germans and carrying out orders aren’t they committing ethical violations per the ABA code of ethics under Rule 3.8?

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:35 pm

  620. Steve57: Yes, you’re correct, and I believe most prosecutors in most places take those obligations seriously, and perform them appropriately, most of the time. Here, in my opinion, these prosecutors haven’t.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:38 pm

  621. “the prosecution has done so bad” because they’ve overplayed their hand from the get-go. They bowed to public/political(?) pressure and charged Murder2 instead of Manslaughter, when they NEVER had the evidence and/or witness testimony necessary to prove the more serious charge, let alone the less serious one. They’re doing the best they can with what little they’ve got, so that after it’s over they can go to Trayvon’s parents, and the public, and claim that they worked as hard as they could ‘in the pursuit of justice for Trayvon’.
    IOW, they’re going down swinging, even though they must be at least somewhat aware that very few of their punches are landing.

    Comment by I.cy (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:41 pm

  622. 618. It isn’t about truth, Steve, it’s about their agenda, the facts get in the way,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:33 pm

    Oh, I know that. I learned that as a kid. I wasn’t a kid when Clinton was elected, but he’s a vivid example of the type.

    He’d go speak in coastal democratic enclaves when he was promoting his assault weapons ban and say things like “nobody needs an assault rifle to hunt ducks.”

    And the NRA would respond with something like “Clinton doesn’t even know you don’t hunt ducks with rifles.”

    He grew up in Arkansas; of course he knows. He just knew how to create this mental image in the minds of East Coast and San Francisco liberals. They didn’t know. And it wasn’t his job to teach them but keep them as ignorant as possible.

    Plus he got a laugh out of the people at the NRA and anyone else who thought the facts mattered.

    As one gun control advocate I debated was finally forced to admit, “Hey, if they’re stupid enough to buy it then why shouldn’t I use it?”

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:42 pm

  623. Actually, I.cy, lots of their prosecution’s blows are landing — on their own chins. But yeah, if “flailing around like someone who flunked out of law school” counts as swinging, they’re still swinging.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:43 pm

  624. Well put, Beldar.

    Comment by Icy (no longer mocking E.PWJ) (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:45 pm

  625. I just hope that if I ever get indicted for a crime, that these are the prosecutors that handle my trial. Definitely don’t won’t one like our esteemed host, that’s for sure.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:56 pm

  626. 620. Steve57: Yes, you’re correct, and I believe most prosecutors in most places take those obligations seriously, and perform them appropriately, most of the time. Here, in my opinion, these prosecutors haven’t.

    Comment by Beldar (c119f6) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:38 pm

    Have they done anything that would warrant filing an ethics complaint?

    It certainly seems that Angela Corey has stepped over the ethical line at some points. I recalled this post from last year.

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/06/if-angela-corey-threatened-suit-against-dershowitz-and-harvard-she-needs-to-step-down-from-zimmerman-case/

    State Attorney Angela Corey, the prosecutor in the George Zimmerman case, recently called the Dean of Harvard Law School to complain about my criticism of some of her actions.

    She was transferred to the Office of Communications and proceeded to engage in a 40-minute rant, during which she threatened to sue Harvard Law School, to try to get me disciplined by the Bar Association and to file charges against me for libel and slander.

    I’m not an attorney but I believe it’s an ethical violation to threaten someone with filing a complaint with the bar. If you have a legitimate complaint you don’t use it as leverage. You just file it.

    There have been other instances I recall when Corey threatened people with litigation over personal matters using official stationary.

    Her regard for ethics seems to have rubbed off on her subordinates. I’m just curious if saturation coverage of the Zimmerman trial isn’t a sword that cuts both ways. Sure, the media is giving wall to wall coverage because they’re out to get Zimmerman. But is it possible that the prosecution team has already crossed an ethical line? It certainly seems so to me since they’re trying to convince the jury to convict Zimmerman based upon something other than the law.

    That following someone is sufficient provocation to forfeit the right to claim self-defense, for instance, when the only provocation sufficient to meet that standard is unlawful physical force. That his injuries weren’t sufficient to justify self-defense when that isn’t the standard. And that he was a “wannabe cop,” as if that has any relevance.

    I’m just curious if there’s anything they can do during this trial, if they haven’t already, that would give prosecutors take their obligations seriously sufficient cause to accuse them of ethical violations?

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:57 pm

  627. I was wondering why a period started appearing after the I. Sometimes I guess that I can be slow on the uptake.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:57 pm

  628. *prosecutors who take*

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:00 pm

  629. “The prosecution is losing on purpose,” and The prosecution is doing a terrible job.”

    Well, what do you expect when you bring a case to trial in which the evidence isn’t there for either a murder or manslaughter conviction. No wonder the prosecution looks bad.

    Comment by DN (09d6b1) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:02 pm

  630. 627.I was wondering why a period started appearing after the I. Sometimes I guess that I can be slow on the uptake.
    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:57 pm

    – A mostly symbolic gesture, since I’m fairly certain that EricPWJohnson has been blocking my posts for quite awhile now.

    Comment by Icy (no longer mocking E.PWJ) (f16d87) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:08 pm

  631. @617 Perry Mason and Hamilton Burger. The Case of the Off-Duty Neighborhood Watcher.

    Mr. Beldar, your posts and comments are always informative and comprehensible. I suspect I miss some of the details from not being a lawyer, but I enjoy them greatly. Thank you.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:13 pm

  632. I will make two predictions:

    Zimmerman will be found innocent. Protests will ensue. The protests will influence the off-year elections. The GOP will lose the House.

    Zimmerman will be found guilty. Protests will ensue. The protests will influence the off-year elections. The GOP will lose the House.

    Any way you look at it, this trial is not about guilt or innocence. It’s about the rule of the state.

    Comment by Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:23 pm

  633. Icy–I suspect Eric is far too full of himself to block yours or anybody’s posts. He wants to see how much attention and pushback he is generating from his comments here.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:24 pm

  634. WE’re quite nearly at this point;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPk7cpiMgbM

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:34 pm

  635. I’m under the impression that EPWJ is mainly a “Rockefeller Republican.” He’s someone who has bits of common sense interwoven with bouts of liberalism. Plenty of people out there are similar to him—and even more people are in worse shape. That’s why a society can fall apart quite easily and remain that way indefinitely (see: Mexico; see: Argentina; see: Greece; see: France).

    Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:53 pm

  636. ==Plenty of people out there are similar to him==

    Actually, no Mark. They’re not. I know you love the process, but trying to analyze EPWJ is fools errand. Really.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 9:59 pm

  637. I’m a share this just cause of it’s so smoov

    that zimmerman’s been eatin him some bread, no?

    He needs to buy him some keds and volunteer for some extra patrols when all this is over.

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:04 pm

  638. elissa – I think you are right. I think periodically EPWJ gets lonely and wants attention.

    I was going to suggest that he have one of his daughters test out his medical theories by having her bang his head on cement a few times and pummel his face to see how he felt, but he probably would have accused me of threatening him.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:04 pm

  639. No, daley. He would have accused you of perversion for suggesting he have his daughter do it to him. EPWTFO! considers that light foreplay.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 10:10 pm

  640. 566. JD–There are prolly a bunch of other “highly respected national reputed chief medical examiner(s)” who can diagnose injuries from a picture too. I imagine the defense will be availing themselves of several of them.

    Comment by elissa (c183db) — 7/2/2013 @ 6:06 pm

    I believe the defense will only avail itself of one.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/post-mortem/interviews/vincent-dimaio.html

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:16 pm

  641. It’s typical of the way this case is going.

    The state gets a couple of underemployed sound studio engineers to act as its experts.

    The defense gets experts like Dr. Nakatone, PhD, the senior scientist in the FBI’s voice recognition program, and Dr. Doddington, PhD, who has worked on voice recognition programs with DARPA, NSA, NIST, and the voice recognition technology used in the F-16 to come in and laugh at them while ripping them to shreds.

    The state gets Dr. Rao the snacking, footwashing itinerant ME that local governments love not to retain when her contract is up to say whatever her benefactress Corey wants her to say.

    The Defense gets…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio

    Dr. Vincent J. M. Di Maio is an American pathologist and a nationally renowned expert on the subject of gunshot wounds.[1][2] Di Maio is a board-certified anatomical, clinical and forensic pathologist, and a private forensic pathology consultant.[3] He attended St. John’s University and the State University of New York (SUNY), and received postgraduate training at Duke University, SUNY, and the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner of Maryland.[4]

    Di Maio is a veteran of the U.S. Army Medical Corps, and served as chief medical examiner of San Antonio, Texas until 2006, when he retired; Di Maio has more than 40 years of experience as a forensic pathologist.[4][5] He has been editor-in-chief of the Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, and a professor of the Department of Pathology at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio.[4] Di Maio is a fellow of the National Association of Medical Examiners (NAME) and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, and in 2011 he was appointed to the Texas Forensic Science Commission by Governor Rick Perry.[3][6]

    Di Maio has authored or co-authored four books and numerous articles related to forensic pathology, and has won several awards for his work, including the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Medical Examiners.[4

    …let’s just say they get a guy who can hold onto any job he wants.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:33 pm

  642. *Dr. Nakatone Nakasone, PhD,*

    Gomennasai, Sensei.

    Comment by Steve57 (192f26) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:35 pm

  643. Did I hear my name mentioned somewhere upthread? I take it the trial is quite the circus.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:42 pm

  644. Really, Surls, a circus? Its still the prosecution’s turn, and every claim you’ve made about the case has been proven false by prosecution witnesses.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:10 am

  645. Is that a fact? Dangerous George still looks like a scumbag murderer to me…but, I was never much of a fan of grown men with guns shooting down unarmed teenagers.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:26 am

  646. Obviously you’ve let none of the testimony seep past whatever psychosis you use to insulate yourself from reality, Surls.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:37 am

  647. you’re not much a fan of facts or the truth either Dave, so your “judgement” is somewhat suspect.

    and your “teenager” was bigger than the grown man, and in better shape too. that puts a big dent in the whole sympathy ploy, at least to the reality based part of the audience here.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:40 am

  648. Dave – I thought Zimmerman shot up at the thug who sitting on him and whaling on him MMA style.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:42 am

  649. If I remember rightly, I said he ought to be put on trial for murder…and there he is on trial for murder. Sounds like my reality closely resembles real reality. My psychosis notwithstanding.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:47 am

  650. You think he should be on trial for murder and the special prosecutor thought that … and it looks like you both are clowns. ‘Cause the best she can do is beclown herself. Just like you did for week after week here.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:56 am

  651. Well, in this the clown is happy with the outcome. I said this case should go to jury over a year ago, and it has…so, I’m satisfied. And, now the jury can decide whether he’s actually guilty of the crime he’s been charged with, and I’ll respect what they decide…as it should be.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:12 am

  652. 645.Is that a fact? Dangerous George still looks like a scumbag murderer to me…but, I was never much of a fan of grown men with guns shooting down unarmed teenagers.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:26 am

    Surls’ idea of a grown man who did the right thing and let himself get killed.

    http://www.khou.com/news/Young-man-gets-life-sentence-in-fatal-knockout-game-attack-205798651.html

    ST. LOUIS—A 20-year-old St. Louis man convicted in the “knockout game” murder of a Vietnamese immigrant was sentenced to life in prison on Thursday.

    …Murphy was convicted April 10 of second-degree murder, first-degree assault and armed criminal action in the April 2011 death of 72-year-old Hoang Nguyen.

    …Nguyen was walking home with his wife when he was attacked by a four teenagers. Police say the couple did nothing to provoke the attack.

    A happy ending for you, Surls. The grown man didn’t gun down the unarmed teenagers.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:26 am

  653. Elex Murphy reminds me a lot of George Zimmerman. Hopefully, this trial will end in the same result.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:55 am

  654. There are some clever folks commenting on this post, and others who are less clever but still amusing, and others.

    I am a fan of droll humor, and there’s been more than a little here.

    steve57, I should probably be fairly careful what I say about legal ethics matters, especially when I must confess to only a partial knowledge of the trial and its underlying facts and proceedings. Suffice it to say that for a variety of reasons, some principled and some cynical but based on real-world observation, I don’t think it would be productive or a good investment of resources for a private citizen, unconnected with the case, to attempt to file any such complaint. But YMMV.

    I’m also guessing that our host is still skimming, and can find amongst these comments and the most recent trial proceedings ample grist for a new post.

    Comment by Beldar (83942c) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:21 am

  655. Or he may be waiting to see if this post’s and its comments’ momentum carries it past 1000!

    Comment by Beldar (83942c) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:22 am

  656. a highly respected national reputed chief medical examiner

    ROFL. On planet EPWJ, maybe.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:55 am

  657. On the topic of EPWJ being a concern troll – Can I get an “AMEN!” from the audience?

    I really need to get around to updating the greasemonkey ignore script to work with Patterico’s redesign. The only regular poster here that I actually used it on was EPWJ.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:33 am

  658. He merely is afflicted with what quite a few people throughout modern society are infected by: Compassion for compassion’s sake.

    If that were so, why no compassion for Zim?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:35 am

  659. ‘It’s time for the English Hungarian phrasebook

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:01 am

  660. If I remember rightly, I said he ought to be put on trial for murder…and there he is on trial for murder. Sounds like my reality closely resembles real reality. My psychosis notwithstanding.

    All it means is that the real world is sometimes run by psychotics like you. The real authorities whose job it was decided not to try him, but a despicable governor and AG appointed an unethical lawyer to override that decision and knowingly try an innocent man.

    . I said this case should go to jury over a year ago, and it has…so, I’m satisfied.

    You wished for a crime to be committed, and it has been. No decent person would be happy about that.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:34 am

  661. The question you raise is the proper one: was it the right thing for Mr Zimmerman to do to continue to follow Mr Martin? He called the police, and was told, by a (supposedly) trained dispatcher that the police did not need him to continue taking the action he indicated he was taking. The police were supposed to be on the way, meaning that Mr Zimmerman knew that people trained to handle these things were coming, yet he decided to continue to keep his untrained self in the situation.

    Continuing to set aside the fact that you have no basis for this fantasy, let’s again suppose it were true. In the alternative universe in which this happened, Zim knew that police were coming, and would be there in five or ten or fifteen minutes, by which time they would do…what? The suspicious character would be long gone, the police would pat him on the head and say “well done reporting that”, and the next morning, or some morning soon, another break-in would be reported. So — still in this fantasy — he went beyond his minimum duty, and set out to keep the suspect in view, so that when the police arrived he could tell them where to find him. I would call that bravery, heroism, giving his all. Something to be celebrated, not derided because he ended up with head injuries. And certainly not the cause of the ordeal he’s suffered for the past year — that is the result not of his own (supposed) bravery or imprudence, but of the malfeasance of several unethical lawyers and judges.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:52 am

  662. Milhouse, are you saying GZ kept following?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:17 am

  663. Most likely the Zimmerman trial will be the last appearance of Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence in a serious trial. Soon trials will be conducted according to the standard of Social Justice jurisprudence, with the proper weight given the race, class, and gender of the plaintiff and defendant until the adversary system of justice itself is discarded in favor of magistrates of social justice who have the power to investigate and punish crime.

    Comment by ErisGuy (76f8a7) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:26 am

  664. No, Milhouse didn’t say that, tifosa. In fact, he said Zimmerman didn’t follow Martin, and then he addressed the hypothetical question of “What if Zimmerman had followed Martin?”

    But you knew that, didn’t you?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:29 am

  665. aw drj, I think Milhouse has talked himself into believing that GZ continued to follow and heroized himself. :)

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:43 am

  666. The Mark who disagrees with me wrote:

    Your cynicism about Zimmerman’s actions and activity plays straight into the hands of ambulance-chasing lawyers and money-grubbing spin doctors everywhere. It’s the reason people can be so easily manipulated and find themselves increasingly risk-averse (or a form of political correctness gone berserk), with feelings of “don’t get involved!” and “mind your own business or else you’ll be sued!”

    In this thread, under this topic, I hereby bequeath you with the screen name of “The Nidal-Hasan-ized Dana.”

    Oh, have you seen someplace where I have suggested that we should somehow “understand” Major Hasan’s motivations, or that the Army bears some responsibility for the Fort Hood massacre by assigning Major Hasan to duty in Afghanistan? My site is linked underneath my screen name, and there is a search function at the top of the right-hand side bar; just search for “Nidal” and you’ll bring up all of the articles mentioning him.

    Major Hasan was assigned to report for duty in Afghanistan (or was it Iraq?), something which would be a normal function for the Army and deployment a standard obligation for service members. Mr Zimmerman, on the other hand, was taking a decidedly non-standard action in tailing a person he thought, for whatever reasons he had, was somehow a threat to the community, and did so even after the police dispatcher told him that he did not need to follow Mr Martin.

    That is a definite distinction, and not even a subtle one.

    It does not matter to me whether Mr Zimmerman’s actions might have been completely legal, nor that Mr Martin may have reacted illegally; the situation arose because Mr Zimmerman chose to tail Mr Martin, obviously enough that Mr Martin noticed that he was being followed. Had Mr Zimmerman complied with the dispatcher’s instructions, none of this would ever have happened.

    Comment by The Dana who recognizes that George Zimmerman is no great hero (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:44 am

  667. Oh, cool! I got comment #666!

    Comment by The satanic Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:45 am

  668. aw drj, I think …

    Should’ve stopped right there. Leading with obvious nonsense is rarely effective.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:48 am

  669. Ericguy

    social justice is the main reason we have our court system today.

    I was defending the DA I have a habit of doing that and will continue to do that because, being around a DA’s office so woefully underfunded, I still see where there can be forces brought to bear to influence DA’s in their decisions to charge people.

    THis wasn’t as clear to me as everyone thinks it was long before the trial began. I was not the only long time commentator to notice it.

    Bringing it to trial was valid because based upon one persons story who was mildly injured if we want to stretch it to that, the guy who pulled the trigger gets to write the narrative.

    So that’s why the guy is on trial – I still think he maybe innocent, but with the pictures I am not so sure. Also Trayvons parents need to immediately return the money to however they got it from, they are far from victims letting their son run wild like an animal.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:48 am

  670. Here’s a question for the lawyers. As I understand it, the state put Zim’s interview with Hannity on, in order to point out what they think is a lie, the claim that he had never heard of the SYG law. OK, let’s suppose it was a lie; so what? Isn’t he entitled to lie to Hannity? Surely he could tell Hannity whatever he liked. He wasn’t under oath. How is his having done so (assuming he did) relevant to the case?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:49 am

  671. whom ever they got the money from….

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:50 am

  672. Mark wrote:

    “Troll” implies a person isn’t really being honest with his opinions, but I think EPWJ and Dana are manifesting a major reason why our culture has become so deranged. So deranged that an anti-American, pro-Islamic-spouting extremist was tolerated by his fellow US military enlistees until a fateful day of murder and mayhem.

    Really? Well, there’s a rather simple Amendment to our Constitution which states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . . .” The original part of the Constitution specifies that no religious test shall be imposed to hold any office under the United States government. In other words, we could not bar Nidal Hasan from the Army because he was Islamic.

    As for his radicalization, you might ask why this radicalization was noticed, but nobody did anything about it. You certainly won’t find me defending political correctness.

    Comment by The Dana Mark believes is bringing down society (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:51 am

  673. Had Mr Zimmerman complied with the dispatcher’s instructions, none of this would ever have happened.

    If GZ had gone to bed early none of this would have happened. If it wasn’t raining out, none of this would have happened.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:52 am

  674. aw drj, I think Milhouse has talked himself into believing that GZ continued to follow and heroized himself.

    What part of “Continuing to set aside the fact that you have no basis for this fantasy, let’s again suppose it were true [...] in the alternative universe in which this happened [...] so — still in this fantasy — [...] his own (supposed) bravery or imprudence” did you not understand?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:52 am

  675. I still think he maybe innocent, but with the pictures I am not so sure.

    Last night you told us it was over for GZ.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:53 am

  676. Don’t bring that up Dana, people sadly here are so galvanized as to ignore facts like – injuries were inconsistent with Z’s story – hence then his justification for shooting Martin seems to be weaker.

    Facts don’t mean anything unfortunately to some(most) of this sites “favorite” commentators.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:55 am

  677. JD

    What I believe and what I wish for are 2 different things

    I believe its over for him, its a hung jury and the 2nd retrial will be more factual brief and to the point

    I think personally

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:56 am

  678. JD

    What I believe and what I wish for are 2 different things

    I believe its over for him, its a hung jury and the 2nd retrial will be more factual brief and to the point

    I think personally

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:56 am

  679. c’mon Milhouse, all those precious words lauding a righteous “follow.” justsayin

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:00 am

  680. JD

    What I believe and what I wish for are 2 different things

    I believe its over for him, its a hung jury and the 2nd retrial will be more factual brief and to the point

    I think personally that Z like Dana said, started it and then had to finish it and played himself into a world of hurt not realizing that we are raising young men who have no inkling of a moral compass. Its frustrating and sad on both sides, but also damages in the long term our rights to defend ourselves.

    That is another outcome that’s going to come down, more unneeded gun control, while theiris never any corresponding control over people like Martin, who feel they can sucker punch annoying people at will.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:00 am

  681. the situation arose because Mr Zimmerman chose to tail Mr Martin, obviously enough that Mr Martin noticed that he was being followed.

    You could equally say the situation arose because Tracy Martin left his wife (who was not his son’s mother) and took up with his girlfriend. Or because Trayvon Martin got into trouble and went to stay with his father. Or because Gladys Mesa chose to marry Robert Zimmerman. Or because Officer Whoever stopped for a doughnut and didn’t get there in time (there’s as much evidence for this supposition as for yours). Or because some planner decided not to put proper lighting in the area, and not to put up adequate street signs so people would know where they were. Or because that infamous butterfly in Brazil flapped its wings and caused it to rain in Florida. There are any number of things that could have prevented the situation from arising, why focus on this (supposed) one?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:02 am

  682. Major Hasan was assigned to report for duty in Afghanistan (or was it Iraq?), something which would be a normal function for the Army and deployment a standard obligation for service members.

    So? The situation still (perhaps) arose because of that.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:03 am

  683. In other words, we could not bar Nidal Hasan from the Army because he was Islamic.

    The army certainly could have. It has no duty to take all comers, and need not give a reason for rejecting someone. But there was really no reason to do that; there are plenty of Moslems who have served with distinction. What it should have done, though, was keep an eye on him, and on all Moslems in the service, bearing in mind the significantly higher (though still low) likelihood of treason among them. Just as it undoubtedly did with servicemen of German origin in WW1 (and probably in WW2 as well, though I’m less sure of it).

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:07 am

  684. interesting that no one defended Dana when Mark decided that dana’s freedom of speech entitled him to be labeled a terrorist.

    can discuss the lack of swelling, bruising, lacerations, stitches etc – but we can call people Nidal’s

    cute…

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:08 am

  685. c’mon Milhouse, all those precious words lauding a righteous “follow.” justsayin

    Yes, he would have been well within his rights to have followed Martin, and doing so might even have been heroic. But he says he didn’t, and there is no reason to doubt his word.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:09 am

  686. interesting that no one defended Dana when Mark decided that dana’s freedom of speech entitled him to be labeled a terrorist.

    I must have missed that. Please quote the exact words, and the number of the comment in which they appear.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:10 am

  687. Milhouse,

    exactly which branch of the military monitors the private lives of its soldiers and is staffed to do it?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:10 am

  688. Milhouse,

    just read – you know right where he was

    “The Nidal-Hasan-ized Dana”

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:13 am

  689. yoo hoo Miiiilhouse

    which branch of the military monitors the private lives of its soldiers?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:14 am

  690. He said he didn’t follow, he also said the kid he just shot in the heart said “Oh, gosh, you me, you got it, you got me, you got it,” he said his head was pounded into the sidewalk 20-30 times… Puh. Leez.

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:15 am

  691. exactly which branch of the military monitors the private lives of its soldiers and is staffed to do it?

    The military seems to have enough people looking at servicemen to catch drug use, sexual assault, adultery, imprudent facebook posts, disrespect for the CiC, etc.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:19 am

  692. okay so the liars and name callers are out this thread is dead.

    A warning to new commentators – this is a site where you MUST agree with SPQR, JD and the usual cabal, if you don’t you will be smeared, accused, libeled, threatened.

    These people with the full knowledge and support of the owner, will relentlessly attack anyone who doesn’t think the way they do.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:20 am

  693. He said he didn’t follow, he also said the kid he just shot in the heart said “Oh, gosh, you me, you got it, you got me, you got it,” he said his head was pounded into the sidewalk 20-30 times… Puh. Leez.

    Do you have any reason to doubt any of that? Any at all?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:20 am

  694. interesting that no one defended Dana when Mark decided that dana’s freedom of speech entitled him to be labeled a terrorist.

    I must have missed that. Please quote the exact words, and the number of the comment in which they appear.

    just read – you know right where he was
    “The Nidal-Hasan-ized Dana”

    So no, you don’t have a quote in which Mark labelled Dana a terrorist. You’re just making stuff up as usual. Thank you.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:23 am

  695. people sadly here are so galvanized as to ignore facts like – injuries were inconsistent with Z’s story –

    Outright lie

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:24 am

  696. exactly which branch of the military monitors the private lives of its soldiers and is staffed to do it?

    How about, oh, I don’t know, the Defense Security Service?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:26 am

  697. Not one single offensive wound on TM, not one single defensive wound on GZ, a person with a bullet in their heart can talk, location of the struggle (south of the T) vs. GZ’s statements, GZ’s own statements that the voice crying for help on the 911 taped call is not his (2/29 Tape3,) to start.
    Yeah, a few reasons.
    Let’s hear from GZ.

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:27 am

  698. Tifosa, WTF? Head wounds are defensive. Where do you get this nonsense.

    Comment by SPQR (d562e7) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:30 am

  699. A warning to new commentators – this is a site where you MUST agree with SPQR, JD and the usual cabal, if you don’t you will be smeared, accused, libeled, threatened.

    If by smeared you mean having you inanity thrown back in our face, then yes. If you have been libeled, you have recourse. You haven’t been threatened.

    As to the MUST agree nonsense, it is just that, pure unadulterated nonsense. Not telling lies, fabrications, distortions, and otherwise being mendoucheous tends to lead to different results.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:30 am

  700. Not one single offensive wound on TM,

    Lie

    not one single defensive wound on GZ,

    Plenty of wounds on the back of his head; what would a defensive wound look like and where would you expect to find it?

    a person with a bullet in their heart can talk,

    Yes; do you have any grounds to doubt this?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:30 am

  701. Tifosa, WTF? Head wounds are defensive. Where do you get this nonsense.

    I thought a defensive wound is a wound sustained by defending oneself. He didn’t defend himself with the back of his head.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:31 am

  702. Not one single offensive wound on TM, not one single defensive wound on GZ,

    This is the lying tiffy we hav come to expect.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:31 am

  703. A powder burn on his hand would be a defensive wound.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:34 am

  704. As I understand it, he was actually shot in the lung, not the heart.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:36 am

  705. So . . .

    Surls feels personal pride for having predicted — after the trial date was set — that the trial would actually take place.

    Wow.

    It’s like watching Kreskin in his prime.

    Comment by Icy (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:37 am

  706. In other words, we could not bar Nidal Hasan from the Army because he was Islamic.

    Dana, am I reading you correctly? Are you implying it was proper legal/constitutional channels that somehow was at the root of Hasan being tolerated until it was too late? I hope not, because if so, ‘ya gotta be kidding me! That would be like saying no one can be barred from or reprimanded in a workplace because of the parameters of the law and the Constitution.

    However, I don’t think you’re making that point, or I hope you’re not making what would be a fatuous argument. But when I see another one of your comments, I become a bit leery of what’s at the core of your reactions:

    Had Mr Zimmerman complied with the dispatcher’s instructions, none of this would ever have happened.

    …that comes rather close — too close for comfort IMHO — to saying, “if the woman hadn’t dressed the way she did, she wouldn’t have been raped.”

    interesting that no one defended Dana when Mark decided that dana’s freedom of speech entitled him to be labeled a terrorist.

    Huh? EPWJ, I know left-leaning biases do influence your POV on occasion, because for you to take my comments and decipher them as meaning that Dana is similar to a Nidal Hasan can only be the conclusions of a silly liberal. Only a person saddled with a leftist tilt would not understand that “Nidal Hasan-ization” refers to the rampant idiocy in no less than the US military, where no one spoke up even when a guy — a fellow enlistee — was spouting anti-American, pro-Islamic comments.

    Oh, but that was his within his Constitutional rights, you say!? Uh, er, then for other military enlistees to not be allowed to say they don’t approve of homosexuality and, in particular, same-sex marriage must be another form of speech that peculiarly and strangely is deemed as not deserving the protection of that same constitution.

    Misplaced or upside-down compassion will be the undoing of this society.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:40 am

  707. E.PWJ wrote:

    I think personally that Z like Dana said, started it and then had to finish it and played himself into a world of hurt not realizing that we are raising young men who have no inkling of a moral compass. Its frustrating and sad on both sides, but also damages in the long term our rights to defend ourselves.

    No, that isn’t what I have said. I have said that Mr Zimmerman created the whole situation by following Mr Martin, but that is not the same thing as saying that he started the fight. I rather doubt that he started the fight, because, if he had, he’d have already had his weapon out . . . and there would have been no fight. The simplest explanation is that Mr Martin started the actual fist fight, because he was angry at being followed, and did not realize that Mr Zimmerman was armed, but that has yet to be proved, and may well be unprovable.

    Comment by The Dana who may be understanding the point of contention here (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:44 am

  708. He had both sides of his hands photographed at SPD. Where was the “powder burn?”

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:48 am

  709. which branch of the military monitors the private lives of its soldiers?

    EPWJ, you have to deepdown admit that comment of yours was really dumb. After all, how you can conflate the openly anti-US, pro-Islamic comments of Nidal Hasan — which was described by other members of the Army — and analogize that to hidden, private speech goes beyond absurd.

    Perhaps every human out there has left-leaning emotions in the nooks and crannies of their brain, so for you to be influenced by them is to be expected. But just remember that liberal biases can easily make you or other people just the opposite of what they tend to highly admire about themselves or others.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:53 am

  710. He had both sides of his hands photographed at SPD. Where was the “powder burn?”

    What is your point? Are you claiming that he didn’t shoot Martin after all?!

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:53 am

  711. There is ample evidence of TM’s offensive actions all over GZ’s head

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:53 am

  712. The witness on the stand now testified Zimmerman got an A in his criminal litigation class — establishing that Zimmerman is a murderer.

    Q.E.D.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:55 am

  713. Milhouse with an e wrote:

    You could equally say the situation arose because Tracy Martin left his wife (who was not his son’s mother) and took up with his girlfriend. Or because Trayvon Martin got into trouble and went to stay with his father. Or because Gladys Mesa chose to marry Robert Zimmerman. Or because Officer Whoever stopped for a doughnut and didn’t get there in time (there’s as much evidence for this supposition as for yours). Or because some planner decided not to put proper lighting in the area, and not to put up adequate street signs so people would know where they were. Or because that infamous butterfly in Brazil flapped its wings and caused it to rain in Florida. There are any number of things that could have prevented the situation from arising, why focus on this (supposed) one?

    If you want to get that silly, you can say it happened because Mr Martin’s biological parents decided to copulate the day she got pregnant. But we are looking for proximate causes, and it is undeniable that if Mr Zimmerman has not followed Mr Martin, there’d have been no altercation.

    That is the locus of all of these events; had Mr Zimmerman not decided to follow Mr Martin, they’d have been nothing more than two people in the same neighborhood who had nothing to do with each other. It was Mr Zimmerman’s assessment that Mr Martin posed some sort of threat whose presence needed to be investigated, and decision to conduct that investigation, which brought together two people whom otherwise would never have interacted. That Mr Zimmerman’s actions may have been entirely legal and that Mr Martin may have started the actual physical confrontation does not change the fact that it was Mr Zimmerman’s decisions and actions which caused this situation to happen in the first place.

    Comment by The realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:55 am

  714. Would this have been a “good” shooting if GZ had been a LEO? What difference does it make whether GZ was a real cop or a wannabe cop? Even fools and bad actors have a right of self defense, don’t they?

    Comment by crazy (d60cb0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:56 am

  715. fter all, how you can conflate the openly anti-US, pro-Islamic comments of Nidal Hasan — which was described by other members of the Army — and analogize that to hidden, private speech goes beyond absurd.

    He didn’t say “hidden”, he just said “private”. Hassan’s treasonous speech and affiliations were private, i.e. not part of his official duties. EPWJ seems to imagine that the military can’t or shouldn’t inquire into what its servicemen do or say off duty, even if they have reason to suspect that one might be disloyal.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:56 am

  716. E.PWJ has chosen to ignore my post at 600, so again I condemn myself for troll feeding.

    Comment by reff who wanted to be sincere like the Dana who is sincere but ended up as a simple troll feeder (f0f8b6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:57 am

  717. What’s the evidence TM caused those wounds ?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:57 am

  718. CSI: Tiffy

    Comment by Icy (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:57 am

  719. dana

    started the confrontation by getting out of the truck. After being told not to – I hope that clarifies what I meant

    Z did the right thing by calling the police, then did the wrong thing and ended up in a world of hurt.

    Now he’s on trial and we only have one side of the story and the story according to the crazy medical examiner – didn’t show any injuries consistent with history of Martins assault.

    Because of the heated nature of this case – its not going to be of much comfort with any verdict.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:58 am

  720. What’s the evidence TM caused those wounds ?

    You are dumb.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:58 am

  721. But we are looking for proximate causes, and it is undeniable that if Mr Zimmerman has not followed Mr Martin, there’d have been no altercation.

    Zim following Martin (again assuming that he did so) was not the proximate cause of the altercation. Martin’s decision to jump him was an independent and intervening cause.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:01 am

  722. Shorter tifosa… fire can’t melt steel.

    Comment by SPQR (d562e7) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:03 am

  723. it was Mr Zimmerman’s decisions and actions which caused this situation to happen in the first place.

    And at its core there is a bit of truth to the observation that a person driving a nice car in the bad part of town is asking for trouble, a woman dressed for a night of nightclubbing is running the risk of rape, and a person who uses an ATM is subjecting himself to robbery.

    Yea, that’s correct, and it originates from a compassionate, humane, beautiful way of explaining reality.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:04 am

  724. JD,

    I must have missed all those wounds, a tender nose and two band aid treated boo boo’s.

    Remember someone is dead, someone who was approached by an armed adult. Someone who according to many witnesses had a reason to be there and was 100 or yards from where he was staying.

    And died.

    My point is people are accusing the DA of being out for Zimmerman, some are even saying its for political reasons or a crime to even demand that Z have to answer for a shooting of an armed kid.

    erase all the political circus out there – if this were to happen between two people of the same race – then it would have gone to trial without the circus right?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:05 am

  725. started the confrontation by getting out of the truck. After being told not to – I hope that clarifies what I meant

    Wrong. Mathis was not proximate cause, as Dana also asserted. GZ made no attempt to initiate any contact with TM. The confrontation was a confrontation of choice by TM.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:07 am

  726. That is the locus of all of these events; had Mr Zimmerman not decided to follow Mr Martin, they’d have been nothing more than two people in the same neighborhood who had nothing to do with each other.

    Getting back to the real world (as per Zim’s uncontradicted account) Martin had already noticed him by that point and taken umbrage, and turned around to find and confront him. Unless you’re talking about Zim’s original decision to report Martin’s suspicious behaviour, and to get out of the car and find out for the dispatcher where he had gone, before the dispatcher told him that wasn’t necessary.

    It was Mr Zimmerman’s assessment that Mr Martin posed some sort of threat whose presence needed to be investigated,

    Do you dispute that this was a correct assessment? Would not any responsible neighbour do the same?

    it was Mr Zimmerman’s decisions and actions which caused this situation to happen in the first place.

    I don’t understand how an otherwise reasonable person can keep repeating the same garbage. Zim’s lawful behaviour can not have caused Martin’s unlawful behaviour. And if you want to discuss what caused the situation to happen in the first place, surely it was Martin’s lurking, not Zim’s noticing and reacting to it. Please address that. Why is Martin’s lurking not the proximate cause that you’re looking for?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:09 am

  727. Great explanation going on in the trial right now of why Trayvon had every right to SYG :)

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:09 am

  728. Mr Milhouse wrote:

    In other words, we could not bar Nidal Hasan from the Army because he was Islamic.

    The army certainly could have. It has no duty to take all comers, and need not give a reason for rejecting someone. But there was really no reason to do that; there are plenty of Moslems who have served with distinction. What it should have done, though, was keep an eye on him, and on all Moslems in the service, bearing in mind the significantly higher (though still low) likelihood of treason among them. Just as it undoubtedly did with servicemen of German origin in WW1 (and probably in WW2 as well, though I’m less sure of it).

    The military has standard criteria for accepting or rejecting applicants, and the Constitution forbids making a religious test one of those criteria.

    What you have suggested is some sort of religious profiling: we can’t bar Muslims from enlisting, but we can keep a closer eye on them. Try running that idea through our legal system and tell me how it works out. Of course, neither President Bush nor President Obama would ever have authorized such, because Mr Bush was very concerned about making sure that this wasn’t a war against Muslims, but a war against “terror,” while Mr Obama, well, he’s Barack Obama.

    There are a lot of things we did concerning Americans of German and Japanese origins during World War II, and not all of them exactly covered us with glory.

    Individually, we can investigate service members more closely if they hold a security clearance or are being considered for duty which would require a clearance. Soldiers voluntarily surrender some of their civil rights by enlisting, but it has never been held that they surrender their freedom of religion. Major Hasan’s e-mails with Anwar al-Awlaki should have raised concerns, but nothing was done about those.

    Of course, there’s an obvious question: do you believe we should somehow bar the enlistment of Muslims from the Armed Services, or deny them either clearances or certain specific duties (other than as a Christian chaplain, obviously) solely due to their religion?

    Comment by The Army-daddy Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:09 am

  729. and the story according to the crazy medical examiner – didn’t show any injuries consistent with history of Martins assault.

    Is this the ME that Corey appointed, and didn’t actually evaluate GZ, but did look at some pictures, as opposed to the Docs who actually examined GZ and documented injuries consistent with his account?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:09 am

  730. started the confrontation by getting out of the truck. After being told not to –

    That is an outright and deliberate lie.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:10 am

  731. I must have missed all those wounds, a tender nose and two band aid treated boo boo’s.

    Aggressive lies.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:10 am

  732. Hassan’s treasonous speech and affiliations were private, i.e. not part of his official duties.

    Milhouse, it was worse than that because he was reported as spewing anti-US, pro-Islamic speech in public areas, particularly in what I believe was the setting of a military classroom.

    What’s totally pathetic and disgusting is that the argument being voiced by EPWJ is apparently mirrored in good portions of today’s US military, and NOT in (or not just in) the offices of the ACLU or Move On, or Act Up, or the NAACP or NOW, etc.

    Liberalism gone berserk.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:11 am

  733. rase all the political circus out there – if this were to happen between two people of the same race – then it would have gone to trial without the circus right?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:05 am

    No. There would have been no circus, and no trial.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:13 am

  734. Wow! I haven’t seen a blog with so many comments!
    Watching the prosecution is comparable to watching a prize-fighter taking a dive!
    I admit, I was upset when I first heard the news about the poor 11 year old black boy murdered after school, going to his home with his Skittles and iced tea by the big nutty neighborhood Jewish man! I AM NOT BEING SARCASTIC! That is just the way I heard it in NYC! Then, I heard the facts. Then I was angry that my emotions were manipulated to perpetuate B.S.! I have 6 kids & 2 Grandkids. I was a NYS Court Officer for 17 years until I was hurt in an altercation.
    The “Star Witness” was bad enough, (Judges who aren’t on T.V. do not tolerate behavior like that! Not even in Liberal NYC!), but I am convinced this is a farce to push an agenda!
    A prosecutor would NEVER allow a witness to testify that he believed the defendant & certainly wouldn’t ask the Judge to instruct The Jury to “forget” that case blowing statement! Florida has no intention of convicting George Zimmerman! What is truly laughable is the media saying an all white Jury of women are going to relate to an obviously racist, uneducated, rude, lying 19 yr. old black woman from the “Hood”! WTF? Very doubtful! Woman are going to think,”If a 6ft black man, or any man for that point, was on top of me, my son,daughter,ETC., I would pull the trigger too!”, sorry!
    Then again, most woman aren’t going to walk any where near someone @ 3AM. I don’t know if Mr. Zimmerman will be convicted. If he is, it will have nothing to do with the prosecution’s case!

    Comment by Maggie (407883) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:15 am

  735. What you have suggested is some sort of religious profiling: we can’t bar Muslims from enlisting, but we can keep a closer eye on them.

    Yes. Exactly as we did with Germans in WW1 (and probably WW2). There is a rational basis for suspecting their loyalty, and it is criminally insane — treasonously insane — to pretend otherwise.

    do you believe we should somehow bar the enlistment of Muslims from the Armed Services, or deny them either clearances or certain specific duties (other than as a Christian chaplain, obviously) solely due to their religion?

    Sigh. I’ve already directly addressed this, in the very comment you just quoted. What part of “What it should have done, though, was keep an eye on him, and on all Moslems in the service, bearing in mind the significantly higher (though still low) likelihood of treason among them” is not clear?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:15 am

  736. I must have missed all those wounds, a tender nose and two band aid treated boo boo’s.

    Other than your minimizing the injuries, which may well include long term brain damage due to the trauma of having his head battered, as well as having his own blood go down his throat while he was on his back being hit, and a hematoma on his head (and the state’s medical expert testimony that Zimmerman’s actions could have saved his life, preventing a subdural hematoma, epidural hemotomia, or other immediately life-threatening brain injury), you’re also missing one of Zimmerman’s several injuries: to his sacroiliac joint.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:15 am

  737. offensive wounds on TM, defensive wounds on GZ?
    anyone?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:15 am

  738. Tifosa has itself in a lather today.

    I’ll bite, tiffy, how would you describe the cuts to the back of he head and broken nose that GZ suffered?

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:20 am

  739. “What’s totally pathetic and disgusting is that the argument being voiced by EPWJ is apparently mirrored in good portions of today’s US military, and NOT in (or not just in) the offices of the ACLU or Move On, or Act Up, or the NAACP or NOW, etc.”

    - Mark

    Do you think it has something to do with the burgeoning male-on-male military rape epidemic?

    I bet you do…

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:20 am

  740. Comment by The Army-daddy Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:09 am

    Dana, for you to write that entire post in the context of this debate really startles me. You remind me of a person back in the 1990s who I once had fairly great confidence in, or who I previously had assumed was generally reliable and down-to-earth. But when he told me that OJ Simpson couldn’t possibly have been guilty of double homicide — that the evidence wasn’t strong enough — I was floored. I did a double take and felt outright shocked.

    That was one of those moments when I realized just how corrupt human nature could be or could become.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:20 am

  741. started the confrontation by getting out of the truck. After being told not to –

    That is an outright and deliberate lie.

    Definitely an intentional lie.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:21 am

  742. Do you think it has something to do with the burgeoning male-on-male military rape epidemic?

    Leviticus, and by contrast you cavalierly wave off the implications of the reportedly growing problem of rape (ie, male-on-male) in the military? Well, after all, you are one very compassionate, humane human being.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:24 am

  743. Captain Carter: What an impressive witness on the stand right now.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:24 am

  744. offensive wounds on TM, defensive wounds on GZ?
    anyone?

    The offensive wounds were on TM’s hands. You pretend they weren’t there because you’re a liar.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:25 am

  745. The commentator on his period (it’s right there, mon, between the 5th & 16th letters of de alphabet) asked:
    erase all the political circus out there – if this were to happen between two people of the same race – then it would have gone to trial without the circus right?

    – If this were to happen between two people of the same race, then it might have gone to trial — for manslaughter. It is BECAUSE of the racial component that the more serious, and unprovable, charge of Murder2 was filed.

    Comment by Irredeemable Cabal Yahoo (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:25 am

  746. Evidence TM caused those wounds? (GZ dna under fingernails, hands, clothing?)

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:26 am

  747. this thread sure got a large bolus of stupid this morning…

    to include some from regulars i really expect better of.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:26 am

  748. Leviticus – I think it says more about their willingness to engage in charitable giving

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:27 am

  749. More on witness Captain Carter (tweet)

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:28 am

  750. 737.offensive wounds on TM, defensive wounds on GZ?
    anyone?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:15 am

    Shorter tifosa: fire can’t melt stupid.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:29 am

  751. Andrew Branca, LOSD ‏@LawSelfDefense 5m

    #Zimmerman Trial: Good God, it’s like Carter is an expert witness on law of self defense for the defense team. http://is.gd/MiCo0J

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:31 am

  752. Hahaha… well we’ll see what Rupert Everett has to say about this!

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:32 am

  753. Florida Channel 9 Legal Expert: “Oh my God, I can’t underestimate the importance of this witness for the defense [emphasis his].”

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:32 am

  754. for the defense [emphasis on that part]

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:33 am

  755. https://twitter.com/LegInsurrection/zimmerman-trial

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:35 am

  756. Channel 9 Anchorman: “But that tactic may have backfired [on the prosecution regarding the testimony of Captain Carter].”

    Legal Expert: “Yeah, you think?”

    lol

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:40 am

  757. or the state, fcon. Perfect case for TM SYG
    Interesting that they paint a hypothetical that GZ started the conflict.

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:41 am

  758. Channel 9 Legal Expert talking about Captain Carter who said, among other things, “Hey George, how are you doing?”:

    “This witness was devastating [emphasis his] to the state’s case.”

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:43 am

  759. Hahaha… well we’ll see what Rupert Everett has to say about this!

    I hope you’re not smirking about the issue of male-on-male rape based on the stereotype of gay dudes getting a cheap thrill over the idea of being forced into sex by another male.

    Comment by Mark (9b8d77) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:45 am

  760. Kathi Belich, WFTV @KBelichWFTV

    The state did not want its own witness to say these things to the jury but could not stop it. #Zimmermanon9

    Sorry, uninformed Dana, the state’s own witness is telling the jury that GZ didn’t create the situation. TM did with his disproportionate response.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:45 am

  761. SYG is not relevant to this case, tiffy

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:45 am

  762. Ha ha

    Andrew Branca, LOSD ‏@LawSelfDefense

    #Zimmerman Trial: Rumored: Shorter Carter testimony: “I wish I could be more like George Zimmerman.”

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:46 am

  763. I’m curious; why does everyone who wants to frame GZ as guilty emphasize the fact TM was a teenager?

    At 17 he was old enough to join the military (with parental consent).

    Somebody who’s old enough to be a Soldier or Marine is old enough to be plenty dangerous.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:48 am

  764. The Milhouse who does not respect the First Amendment wrote:

    What you have suggested is some sort of religious profiling: we can’t bar Muslims from enlisting, but we can keep a closer eye on them.

    Yes. Exactly as we did with Germans in WW1 (and probably WW2). There is a rational basis for suspecting their loyalty, and it is criminally insane — treasonously insane — to pretend otherwise.

    We got away with a lot of things during the wars that we can’t do today, and I would suggest that you know better than to think we could, in this day and age, consciously set up a program which would more closely monitor people based upon their religion.

    There is no category which is more thoroughly protected in our Constitution that religion, not only by the First Amendment but also by the prohibition on imposing any religious tests for any office under the United States. I happen to think that when the Constitution says that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States,” (Article VI, paragraph 3) in means no religious test.

    The President of the United States, every member of Congress, and every member of our Armed Forces, takes an oath that he will support and defend the Constitution of the United States . . . and that is very much part of the Constitution.

    Do you believe that that section, and the First Amendment, should be repealed?

    Comment by The Dana who respects the Constitution (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:48 am

  765. Defense-Attorney West: “You don’t have to almost die before you defend yourself?”

    State’s Witness Army JAG Captain West: “No … I would advise against that.”

    George Zimmerman and the rest of the courtroom except for the prosecution and judge: Laughs, smiles.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:49 am

  766. Purely anecdotal, and 750+ comments into the thread, but I always got the impression that this was never about Zimmerman or Martin. This was always about the Sanford Police Department. The outrage from the Jacksons and Sharptons, then echoed through the evening news programs, was less that Zimmerman killed Martin but that the police didn’t bother to charge him. As Professor Reynolds says, it was then used cynically to help black turnout for the 2012 election.

    Had Sanford P.D. booked Zimmerman and then dismissed the charges after an investigation, I think the race-baiting would never have reached this level, and the political pressure to bring charges never would have been there. I don’t know what the proper Florida procedure is in this case, but the absence of at least a charge is what fueled the original racial outcry.

    The media’s behavior throughout this matter has been despicable. It is a sad irony to see the black community coalesce only to form a lynch mob.

    Comment by Hadlowe (33cc56) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:50 am

  767. At 17 he was old enough to join the military (with parental consent).

    Somebody who’s old enough to be a Soldier or Marine is old enough to be plenty dangerous.

    Great point.

    Steve57, what did you think of Captain Carter’s testimony? (My opinion: great witness, incredibly composed and relaxed, knowledgeable and credible as all hell, obviously likes Zimmerman, and delivered mighty pwnage onto the heads of the prosecution.)

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:52 am

  768. We got away with a lot of things during the wars that we can’t do today, and I would suggest that you know better than to think we could, in this day and age, consciously set up a program which would more closely monitor people based upon their religion.

    Really? What is your legal basis for believing so? What part of the first amendment, or the Religious Test clause, or any other part of the constitution, prevents the government from profiling on the basis of race, religion, or any other criterion that seems relevant?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:53 am

  769. Mark @ 740: My comment concerning the OJ Simpson trial was that the man won the Heisman Trophy and rushed for 2,000 yards in a single season, so we had to cut him a break. :)

    Doesn’t look like he took advantage of that.

    Comment by The NFL fan Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:53 am

  770. Had Sanford P.D. booked Zimmerman and then dismissed the charges after an investigation, I think the race-baiting would never have reached this level, and the political pressure to bring charges never would have been there.

    And had they done so they would have been in violation of the law, Zim’s rights, and of the entire basis for their own legitimacy to hold authority. Just as Khouri and her merry troupe have done.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:55 am

  771. Profiling is one of the most valuable tools our brain has for processing information. We could not exist without it. And until about 20 years ago, no sane person in the history of the universe has ever questioned it or considered it wrong.

    Of course one must be careful not to put too much confidence in it, as if it were a magic formula that’s guaranteed to always give the right answer. If you bet on a card drawn from a complete shuffled deck not being a face card, you’ll be wrong 3/13 of the time; if you’re stupid enough to think you’re certain to be right then you’ll lose your shirt. But you’ll still be right 10/13 of the time, and if you don’t bet enough on any one draw to put yourself out of business then you’ll go home significantly richer.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:01 am

  772. It’s also a mistake to rely on profiling once particular information is available about someone. Profiling is an appropriate tool for creating initial impressions, when you have a large number of potential suspects and know nothing about any of them beyond what you can see. It tells you where to focus your attention first, what to look for first, where you’re most likely to find what you’re looking for. Once you have detailed information about an individual, the profile is no longer useful and must be discarded.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:05 am

  773. Milhouse wrote:

    We got away with a lot of things during the wars that we can’t do today, and I would suggest that you know better than to think we could, in this day and age, consciously set up a program which would more closely monitor people based upon their religion.

    Really? What is your legal basis for believing so? What part of the first amendment, or the Religious Test clause, or any other part of the constitution, prevents the government from profiling on the basis of race, religion, or any other criterion that seems relevant?

    It’s pretty obvious: if you are profiling on the basis of religion, then you are imposing a religious test.

    Now, we have had some decisions recently — perhaps decisions with which you disagreed? — which do allow the state to consider race, to achieve compelling state goals, as long as strict scrutiny is used and there are no other methods of achieving such goals. I happen to disagree with those decisions, in Grutter v Bollinger and Fisher v University of Texas, believing that the 14th Amendment puts an absolute prohibition on such things, but perhaps you do not.

    But to be logically consistent, if you are going to say that we can consider religion to be something which we can consider, to achieve the compelling state interest of fighting the Islamists, then you must also agree with the Court’s reasoning in Grutter, in Fisher, and in Bakke v Board of Regents.

    I happen to take the apparently radical view that the Constitution means exactly what it says.

    Comment by The logically consistent Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:05 am

  774. FC, I thought Carter was devastating to the prosecution and a home run for the defense.

    Earlier in #626 I wrote this while wondering if we’re actually witnessing the prosecution violate the ABA code of ethics (I didn’t mean to put Beldar on the spot):

    Her regard for ethics seems to have rubbed off on her subordinates. I’m just curious if saturation coverage of the Zimmerman trial isn’t a sword that cuts both ways. Sure, the media is giving wall to wall coverage because they’re out to get Zimmerman. But is it possible that the prosecution team has already crossed an ethical line? It certainly seems so to me since they’re trying to convince the jury to convict Zimmerman based upon something other than the law.

    The state has been trying to convince the jury that GZ is somehow guilty because he’s a “wannabe cop.” That he’s somehow the aggressor because he “created” the situation by following TM. That he therefore lost the right to claim self-defense. That in any case his injuries were only minor so he couldn’t have been in fear for his life.

    And in one fell swoop Carter came in and undid all that BS. As Branca said in a tweet, the prosecutor Mantei was caught so off guard it appeared he was just hearing about the law of self-defense as Carter was telling him about it. It was like Carter was holding a remedial clinic on the subject for some very dull students.

    Not the jury, mind you. The prosecutors.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:10 am

  775. Watching the trial?

    This Skype call is a disaster. The current Professor being interviewed is getting Skype calls every 2 seconds.

    Literally.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:12 am

  776. Milhouse @ 771: It seems to me that Mr Zimmerman was doing exactly what you have said is a valuable tool, and profiled Mr Martin. (He’s never going to admit to racial profiling, of course, but I’d bet a curry chicken lunch special that is exactly what he did.)

    And he got it wrong. You admitted that sometimes profiling leads to the wrong conclusions, and in this case, it yielded a spectacularly bad ending.

    Who knows? Maybe Trayvon Martin was casing the joint, planning on returning to break into houses and rob people, or maybe he was planning on buying drugs, or perhaps he was even scoping out a potential rape victim. But if he was planning such things, he never actually did them, there is no evidence that such was ever his intention, and the law can’t somehow assume that he was planning anything of the sort.

    Mr Zimmerman, however, obviously thought he was up to no good, and, in a way he was right: no good came of all of this.

    Comment by The logically consistent Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:12 am

  777. Great explanation going on in the trial right now of why Trayvon had every right to SYG
    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:09 am

    “I say, old bean, what’s that young fellow doing over there?”
    “Don’t rightly know, old stick. Allow me to take a closer gander at yonder to-do, forthwith, for the purpose of determining what sort of rummy business is taking place, what?”
    “Right ho! Carry on, and all that.”
    . . . . .
    “Well? What’s the scoop, old twig?”
    “It’s the most extraordinary bit of rummy business I have ever encountered, don’t you know; eh, what? If — and I must forewarn you, me old chappie, that several of the variegated machinations of yonder pugilistic enterprise yet escape me — but, if I understand correctly, then the performance what’s being played out before us involves the younger fellow sitting upon the older man’s chest and slamming his head into the concrete sidewalk for the purpose of — now how did he put it . . . oh yes — for the purpose of ‘standing his ground’.”
    “Extraordinary! Bit of the old rhubarb for the other fellow, don’t you think, old boy?”
    “Yes. He most certainly appears to be in the soup, as it were, old wart.”
    “I do hope the constabulary are on their way to break up this business. It’s slightly unseemly, I’d say.”
    “Oh, ra-ther!”

    Comment by Icy (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:14 am

  778. For instance, if all you know about someone is that he’s in Afghanistan, it’s fair to assume he’s a Moslem. But if you know he’s a US serviceman, then it becomes fair to assume he’s not a Moslem. Then when he shows you his Koran it becomes fair to assume once again that he is one. Until he shows you the rest of his library of religious books, and that assumption changes again. The more information you have to add to your profile the better your guess will be. But at each stage of that progression you’re profiling.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:14 am

  779. It’s pretty obvious: if you are profiling on the basis of religion, then you are imposing a religious test.

    No, you are not. Surely you know the definition of a test.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:15 am

  780. I happen to take the apparently radical view that the Constitution means exactly what it says.

    Nowhere does the constitution say that we must ignore what we know about the statistical correlations between race or religion or any other trait and criminality, or disloyalty, or illness, or anything else with which they may be correlated.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:18 am

  781. Milhouse @ 771: It seems to me that Mr Zimmerman was doing exactly what you have said is a valuable tool, and profiled Mr Martin. (He’s never going to admit to racial profiling, of course, but I’d bet a curry chicken lunch special that is exactly what he did.)

    He certainly did profile Martin; as a young man who appears to be on drugs and who despite the rain is not heading to some destination but is instead ducking in and out among buildings where nobody who doesn’t actually live in them has any business being. He did not profile him by race, since he didn’t know his race at the time. Had he been able to see Martin’s race, he probably would have added that to the profile, and he’d have been correct to do so.

    And he got it wrong.

    Really? What makes you think so? In fact he got it right. He pegged Martin for a criminal, and he was one.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:23 am

  782. Have any of the people referring to 17-year-old TM as a “boy” (e.g. arguing whether “a boy without a weapon would confront a man with one”) ever asked themselves what the living TM would have said or done to anyone who referred to him as a “boy”? I’m just guessing, but I think a “ground and pound” would have been a likely result of even the most positive use of the term – at least if a non-black person said it.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:25 am

  783. Who knows? Maybe Trayvon Martin was casing the joint, planning on returning to break into houses and rob people, or maybe he was planning on buying drugs, or perhaps he was even scoping out a potential rape victim. But if he was planning such things, he never actually did them, there is no evidence that such was ever his intention, and the law can’t somehow assume that he was planning anything of the sort.

    Were he charged with any those things, you’d be right that the law couldn’t just assume him guilty. But how can you say that Zimmerman was wrong to suspect him of it, or that we should not suspect him of it? How can you deny the likelihood that he was up to some such illegal scheme? What other explanation do you have for his behaviour?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:25 am

  784. GZ said that he was in his “late teens” and called him a “kid.”

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:30 am

  785. The Dana who insists on qualifying his name with ridiculous and untrue adjectives writes of GZ (#776): “He’s never going to admit to racial profiling, of course”.

    Why the Hell should he? Would he not have called the police if some white teenager in a hoodie was walking around looking like he was on drugs and apparently casing apartments for burglary? Or a Hispanic or Asian teen? Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the police dispatcher ask him what color the suspect was, and wasn’t he at first unsure? That itself would disprove racial profiling.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:31 am

  786. It is my understanding that the FBI regards profiling as an extremely useful tool, and employs people whose entire function is to create and apply profiles. And that these profilers do take race and religion into account — if they were to deliberately exclude these factors they’d be criminally negligent.

    And yet we all saw what happens when too much reliance is placed on these profiles, when the DC snipers were stopped by police and let go because they didn’t fit the profile, by not being white. Some of the fault for that lies in the choice of the wrong profile to apply to the case — the ignoring of the possibility that jihad was involved. But most of the fault lies in the police imagining that the profile was 100% accurate, and if a suspect did not match it 100% then they must be ruled out.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:31 am

  787. GZ said that he was in his “late teens” and called him a “kid.”

    everyone under 30 is a “kid” to me, but that doesn’t make them a juvenile…

    Thug Life was a large, strong athlete, not some helpless toddler.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:42 am

  788. Mr Milhouse wrote:

    For instance, if all you know about someone is that he’s in Afghanistan, it’s fair to assume he’s a Moslem. But if you know he’s a US serviceman, then it becomes fair to assume he’s not a Moslem. Then when he shows you his Koran it becomes fair to assume once again that he is one. Until he shows you the rest of his library of religious books, and that assumption changes again. The more information you have to add to your profile the better your guess will be. But at each stage of that progression you’re profiling.

    You have just given us the definition of “assume:” it makes an ass out of u and me. :lol:

    I happen to have a Koran at home . . . but I’m Catholic. Koran’s are cheap, and they’re good reference material at times. There’s a Book of Mormon around the house somewhere — one of my wife’s family sent it to her — and enough Shakespeare sets that you’d think I read the Bard all the time.

    Well, actually, I am reading Richard III right now, but that was after watching a show on the discovery and identification of his remains. But I haven’t really read that much of his works, the fact that I have posted a couple of things as The Sonnet Avenger notwithstanding.

    Comment by The Dana with an extensive library (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:45 am

  789. Dana obviously didn’t even read the paragraph he quoted, particularly this part: “Until he shows you the rest of his library of religious books”.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:54 am

  790. Dana @764,

    You do realize that Islam is not just a religion but a totalitarian ideology, don’t you?

    By totalitarian I mean there is no aspect of human life that Islam does not dictate down to the smallest detail.

    When the Obama administration disgraced this country by sending the US ambassador to Pope Tawadros II to try to get him to tell the Copts not to protest Morsi, he politely told her his authority over Coptic Christians extended only to religion, not politics.

    You would never get the same response from a Muslim authority. Their authority extends to all aspects of life. It is a complete system; political, social, and legal. It is not a religion as the founders conceived of religion.

    Islam is incompatible with our First Amendment. In fact, devout Muslims would be the first to tell you so. If that is you were a “moderate Muslim” they were berating for submitting to such an infidel idea such as man’s law as embodied in the Constitution superseding Allah’s law as revealed in the Koran, the Hadiths, and the resulting Shariah legal codes. Because Islam demands the establishment of religion.

    Of course, they’d never tell you or me that. Until you confront what’s know as the Muslim numbers problem. When the Muslim population reaches a critical mass then they demand Islamic enclaves where shariah law is primary and the police do not enter. As we have seen in Stockholm the past couple of months. Or beheadings in broad daylight in London. Which along with other large cities in England has no-go zones for infidels.

    There is a reason moderate Muslims don’t speak out against what we call extremists. Because the great weight of Islamic authority is on the side of what we only wish were extremists. They’re not extremists; it’s what’s been mainstream Islam for centuries.

    Individual Muslims certainly want to assimilate. But Islam doesn’t assimilate. That’s why Islam divides the world into two parts. Dar al Salaam, the House of Peace where Muslims rule, and Dar al Harb, the House of War, which Muslims have yet to conquer.

    If we pretend Islam is only a religion and is at all compatible with the First Amendment, they we are seeing only what we wish to see. We are not dealing with reality.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:56 am

  791. The fact that GZ called TM a “kid” rather than a “boy” is just one more hint that he was not racial profiling. If ‘tifosa’ has never even heard that black men in the US were called ‘boy’ for centuries and that therefore non-racists do not even call boys ‘boy’ if they are black unless they are very small, then ‘tifosa’ needs to either educate herself about the topic or stop posting about it. Is anyone else here uncertain about how TM would have reacted to being called a ‘boy’ by a non-black person?

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:59 am

  792. I happen to have a Koran at home . . . but I’m Catholic. Koran’s are cheap, and they’re good reference material at times. There’s a Book of Mormon around the house somewhere — one of my wife’s family sent it to her — and enough Shakespeare sets that you’d think I read the Bard all the time.

    I think Milhouse’s great profiling example would work in describing you, then.

    Trayvon committed attempted murder that night. that’s what it is to smack someone’s head into the pavement. It looks like George profiled Trayvon accurately. If only George knew more, for example about Trayvon’s comments about his love of fighting people and his description of himself as a “no-limit n____”. George’s mistake is not leaving this serious criminal to the police. He took an additional risk with this person because he wanted to reduce the chance he would lose him, but it wasn’t worth the risk and he almost died and could easily have lifelong health repercussions, to say nothing of the cost of the political witchhunt that has targeted him.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:04 am

  793. I happen to have a Koran at home . . . but I’m Catholic. Koran’s are cheap, and they’re good reference material at times.

    Dana, true or false: A much greater proportion of Moslems than of non-Moslems possess a Koran. Possession of a Koran is significantly correlated with being Moslem.

    True or false: If the only information you have about someone is that he is human, the probability of his being Moslem is about 20%. If in addition to that you know only that he owns a Koran, that probability immediately rises to above 80%.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:05 am

  794. > concerning whether he believed George Zimmerman

    um, what?

    that’s … just not ok to ask, not ok to allow to be answered. objection!

    > REPLAYED ALL THE AUDIO OF THE OFFICER GIVING THAT OPINION before telling the jury to ignore i

    um, what?

    *sigh*

    Comment by aphrael (d646cd) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:11 am

  795. You do realize that Islam is not just a religion but a totalitarian ideology, don’t you? By totalitarian I mean there is no aspect of human life that Islam does not dictate down to the smallest detail.

    The same is true of Judaism, and at least some forms of Christianity.

    It is a complete system; political, social, and legal. It is not a religion as the founders conceived of religion.

    When the founders conceived of religion, Islam was certainly one of the ones they had in mind. They were well aware of it, and often referred to it in the context of America being open to all religions. They even concluded a treaty with (I think) Morocco which spelled out that the USA has no established church, and is therefore no more a Christian country than it is a Mohammedan one.

    Islam is incompatible with our First Amendment.

    No more so than are most forms of Christianity. The first amendment is a compromise, an attempt at avoiding the religious conflicts that had dominated UK politics in the second half of the 17th century and the early 18th.

    There is no question that the first amendment applies to Islam every bit as much as it applies to any other religion. Don’t forget that at the time the USA was founded, the founders would have seen Roman Catholicism as a greater threat than Islam, and yet they made sure that in the new federation Catholics and the Roman Church would be treated equally.

    As I wrote above, there is no reason at all why Moslems should not serve in the US defense forces, and indeed many have done so with distinction. We cannot and should not ignore that; doing so would be just as insane (i.e. denying of reality) as is ignoring the danger jihadists pose to us. In my opinion the proper attitude to Moslems is “trust but verify”, or rather “respect but suspect”. Recognise that any individual Moslem is very probably a good person, and treat them as such, but keep an eye out just in case that initial assumption turns out to be wrong, because the chance of it being wrong is significant.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:19 am

  796. I guess I disagree that it’s not appropriate for the investigator to be asked if he believes George’s story. That was his entire job. He was basing his opinion on the evidence, on the way George was grateful when lied to about video being found of the attack, etc. This investigator’s conclusion was that George’s story held up… why not ask him?

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:26 am

  797. Whether the story is believable or credible is a judgment for the jury, not for a witness.

    Comment by aphrael (d646cd) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:27 am

  798. Mr 57 wrote:

    You do realize that Islam is not just a religion but a totalitarian ideology, don’t you?

    By totalitarian I mean there is no aspect of human life that Islam does not dictate down to the smallest detail.

    Deuteronomy 25:5

    When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her.

    Leviticus 15:19-24

    When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. (20)Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. (21)Anyone who touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening. (22)Whoever touches any thing on which she sits shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening. (23)Whether it be on the bed or on the thing on which she is sitting, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. (24)If a man actually lies with her so that her menstrual impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days, and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.

    It’s a good thing that no other religions try to regulate life down to the smallest details, huh?

    Comment by The Catholic Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:28 am

  799. Milhouse wrote:

    As I wrote above, there is no reason at all why Moslems should not serve in the US defense forces, and indeed many have done so with distinction. We cannot and should not ignore that; doing so would be just as insane (i.e. denying of reality) as is ignoring the danger jihadists pose to us. In my opinion the proper attitude to Moslems is “trust but verify”, or rather “respect but suspect”. Recognise that any individual Moslem is very probably a good person, and treat them as such, but keep an eye out just in case that initial assumption turns out to be wrong, because the chance of it being wrong is significant.

    Clearly there were some within the Obama Administration — perhaps even some higher ranking that low level employees in Cincinnati — who believed that any individual conservative is very probably a good person, and treat them as such, but keep an eye out just in case that initial assumption turns out to be wrong, because the chance of it being wrong is significant.

    I guess it just depends on whom gets to pick what beliefs are dangerous.

    Comment by The McCarthyite Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:32 am

  800. Whether the story is believable or credible is a judgment for the jury, not for a witness.

    Comment by aphrael (d646cd) — 7/3/2013

    I get that it’s improper to ask for a conclusion, but it seems wrong to me.

    I want to hear the reasons for this conclusion, too, but it seems important that the investigator felt that George was telling the truth, after going through his investigation. Why not let the jury evaluate whether this investigator’s got a point?

    Anyway, they had their chance to object and didn’t.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:34 am

  801. Question: does being Muslim constitute probable cause, under the Fourth Amendment, under the law?

    Comment by The serious Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:34 am

  802. By totalitarian I mean there is no aspect of human life that Islam does not dictate down to the smallest detail.

    Deuteronomy 25:5

    Better still, Deuteronomy 23:13-14.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:36 am

  803. Dustin wrote:

    Anyway, they had their chance to object and didn’t.

    And yet the objection got placed, but handled in the worst possible way for the prosecution.

    Are the prosecutors really that dumb? Or are they trying to throw this trial?

    Comment by The Dana who isn't an attorney (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:36 am

  804. Question: does being Muslim constitute probable cause, under the Fourth Amendment, under the law?

    No, but it can be a factor in Reasonable Suspicion.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:37 am

  805. Even more interesting is that the investigator was demoted for not supporting a murder charge, and that the first prosecutor didn’t either. It’s also interesting that the President himself got involved, and now even the person who did the autopsy has been replaced with someone who will do things ‘the right way’ for the intended outcome. They even had to throw out the first judge.

    There should be a kangaroo court exception. Once a defendant has been improperly demonized politically to this extent, I think it becomes important to hear from those who weren’t on board, and why, and what happened to them too.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:38 am

  806. Dustin, the problem is that if the jury simply defers to the witness’ judgment because the witness ought to know for whatever reason, then the defendant hasn’t really gotten a trial by jury, he’s gotten a trial by the opinion of one witness.

    It’s fine to ask him the questions about the things that lead up to his conclusion, but asking him for his conclusion is a problem, and an objection is proper.

    That said, objecting retroactively the next day seems very wrong to me, too.

    Comment by aphrael (d646cd) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:38 am

  807. Are the prosecutors really that dumb? Or are they trying to throw this trial?

    Comment by The Dana who isn’t an attorney (3e4784) — 7/3/2013

    Maybe. As you all can tell, I am no attorney either.

    I first thought this show trial was intended to protect the politicians in Florida by giving the race hustlers the verdict they wanted. Maybe it’s only intended to protect the politicians by passing the blame for not getting the verdict they wanted. Now it’s the jury’s fault, and I suppose also George and his lawyers’ fault for bothering with a defense.

    But in my gut I think the real problem is that most of the people involved with this case are stupid. The entire warpath to get this murder charge before a jury was obnoxiously stupid, dumbly ignoring evidence. That the people on board with the prosecution, including the judge, are stupid is the real reason for the mess.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:42 am

  808. Dustin, the problem is that if the jury simply defers to the witness’ judgment because the witness ought to know for whatever reason, then the defendant hasn’t really gotten a trial by jury, he’s gotten a trial by the opinion of one witness.

    Of course. The jury should evaluate whether these opinions are justified, but I don’t mind if the jury is aware of the opinions. I don’t think it’s as proper to ask the investigator “should the jury rule George is guilty?”, but asking “after your investigation, did you believe George’s story?” is a substantially different IMO.

    But I suppose if I disagreed with the investigator I would have a different view. I really am more interested in how this investigator’s conclusion led to his removal as an investigator, and how that fits in to a pattern of this prosecution being an injustice. I do think that should be mentioned at some point.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:47 am

  809. Aphrael, good to see you, btw. Beldar has a lot of excellent comments in this thread (most of which undercut my views, but such is life!)

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:51 am

  810. My friend Dana [who says and does many interesting and funny things] commented above (#666 — 7/3/2013 @ 5:44 am; italics mine):

    It does not matter to me whether Mr Zimmerman’s actions might have been completely legal, nor that Mr Martin may have reacted illegally; the situation arose because Mr Zimmerman chose to tail Mr Martin, obviously enough that Mr Martin noticed that he was being followed. Had Mr Zimmerman complied with the dispatcher’s instructions, none of this would ever have happened.

    I understand that argument. I’m not sold on it, and parts of it I find very hard indeed to swallow, and other parts of it I think I disagree with outright.

    But I don’t think it’s a ridiculous position, and I’m not inclined to argue about it here, mostly because it is a statement of what Dana finds personally important. As Dana was careful to remind us in the language I just quoted, it’s not a statement regarding whether Dana thinks Zimmerman is guilty of a crime in some abstract sense, or whether Zimmerman will (or even should be) found guilty based on the evidence adduced at this particular jury trial, with its unique (and very odd) combination of personalities and events and antics.

    If it is also Dana’s opinion that, indeed, Zimmerman ought to be found guilty based on the sort of evidence the State has adduced so far, then we very much disagree, but respectfully.

    There are a number of other commenters here who are critical of Zimmerman and supportive of the prosecution and its performance whose arguments don’t reach the threshold of earning my respect. But I’m not going to feed trolls.

    And of course, leaving all of us in blog-world to the side for the moment: The jurors have taken an oath to put aside their own personal feelings, including those (like Dana’s) which may prompt them to make judgments about Zimmerman on issues different from those the judge will be asking and instructing the jurors about in the court’s charge before they retire to deliberate. For the jurors to do their jobs according to their oaths, they must put aside such things as their own sentiments as to what’s prudent in doing neighborhood patrols, or even what was the most reasonable opportunity for the conflict to have been defused or avoided (and who had it).

    Instead, for the jurors to do their jobs according to their oaths, they must indeed concentrate on such things as whether Mr. Zimmerman’s actions were, indeed, legal — as determined using only the evidence they’ve seen and heard in open court, as weighed using the law and legal instructions in the court’s charge.

    So it seems to me a lot of y’all are talking past each other in fussing at Dana on this thread. But Dana obviously can and will continue to speak for Dana, and needs me not as an advocate.

    My friend Milhouse asked above (#670 — 7/3/2013 @ 5:49 am):

    Here’s a question for the lawyers. As I understand it, the state put Zim’s interview with Hannity on, in order to point out what they think is a lie, the claim that he had never heard of the SYG law. OK, let’s suppose it was a lie; so what?

    It’s unclear to me that the prosecution should ever have been able to introduce that evidence at this stage of the case; I’m not at all convinced that there was a proper predicate laid, or that there was a proper determination of relevancy either. I’m guessing that evidence came in only because the defense team didn’t object to it (in anticipation, correctly in my view, that it would more likely blow up in the prosecutors’ faces than harm Zimmerman’s defense overall). But I haven’t watched those portions of the trial and I don’t really know whether or how vigorously or on what grounds the defense objected; maybe they did and were (wrongly) overruled.

    Neither side seems to particularly want a real trial in which the rules of evidence are enforced. The defense doesn’t want that because they think they’re winning (and I think they’re winning) in the current chaos. And I honestly don’t believe the prosecutors don’t know the rules of evidence. (Although an alternative theory is that they’re simply pretending not to because that’s necessary to comply with what I presume to be their marching orders — to get a conviction no matter what, regardless of the evidence and even if it’s based solely on racial prejudice and politics.)

    Comment by Beldar (83942c) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:52 am

  811. An inadvertent double-negative there. That sentence ought to have read, “And I honestly believe the prosecutors don’t know the rules of evidence.”

    Comment by Beldar (83942c) — 7/3/2013 @ 9:55 am

  812. Clearly there were some within the Obama Administration — perhaps even some higher ranking that low level employees in Cincinnati — who believed that any individual conservative is very probably a good person, and treat them as such, but keep an eye out just in case that initial assumption turns out to be wrong, because the chance of it being wrong is significant.

    There are two possible views of what was going on there. The more benign view is as you have presented it: that they were profiling groups with “TEA Party” in their name as more likely than others (including those with “Progressive” in their names) to be in violation of the relevant laws. If this is the case, the problem with what they did is that the profile was wrong. It would be like profiling Moslems as more likely than others to be involved in insurance fraud. Sure, it happens, but there’s no reason to suppose it’s more common among Moslems than anyone else. On the other hand, if you’re looking at cigarette smuggling, you should definitely concentrate on Moslems, who seem to have a corner on that particular market.

    Of course the other, more cynical view of the IRS scandal is that those involved didn’t really think such groups were more likely to submit fraudulent applications for tax status, but that they were more likely to harm the President’s re-election campaign. That would be a correct profile, but of course not a valid basis on which to delay their tax status applications.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 10:51 am

  813. Dustin, the problem is that if the jury simply defers to the witness’ judgment because the witness ought to know for whatever reason, then the defendant hasn’t really gotten a trial by jury, he’s gotten a trial by the opinion of one witness.

    If they were to simply defer to him, sure, but why should they not take it into account among all the other evidence? I mean, the same applies to a forensic witness; the jury shouldn’t simply defer to his view that that cut mark must have been made with left-handed scissors, and so the defendant’s story that his right-handed mother made the cut can’t be true, but the witness is allowed to tell them that that is his view, and they then decide what weight to give it.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 10:55 am

  814. tifosa – Does the New Black Panther Party still have a bounty on George Zimmerman’s head?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:02 am

  815. Just to reinforce what I wrote two comments up, had it been true that groups affiliated with the TEA party movement were more likely than others to submit fraudulent tax forms, then the IRS would have been 100% correct to single these out for more intensive scrutiny. (Though if the same were true of “progressive” groups, and yet they were not subjected to the same scrutiny, then that would be a problem. But supposing that TEA-Party groups were submitting fraudulent applications and “progressive” ones were not, then the extra scrutiny for the former and not the latter would be justified.)

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:04 am

  816. I think this trial has shown the state had no case except in a biased and hostile press.

    I hope the jury recognizes the implication if they imprison a man for defending himself from a deadly attack by a thug who glorified the gangster image and was clearly a criminal who saw decent people as prey.

    We should be honoring the attitude of those who watch out for their neighbors, showing more concern than many LEOs who are paid to do so, yet we seem determined to hound and ruin them. This reminds me of Richard Jewell. We need to stop eating our heroes. We will not like the society we are building.

    We seem to want the State to make us helpless sheep while eliminating the sheepdogs. We will be left pawns between the government and criminal wolves, with little to set them apart.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:07 am

  817. We already have ample grounds to expect the Florida Bar to examine both Pam Bondi and Angela Corey for ethics violations, and Florida’s Medical Board to investigate an obviously biased and grossly incompetent ME Dr Rao.

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:23 am

  818. Mr Beldar wrote:

    If it is also Dana’s opinion that, indeed, Zimmerman ought to be found guilty based on the sort of evidence the State has adduced so far, then we very much disagree, but respectfully.

    No, I don’t believe that Mr Zimmerman should be found guilty, based upon the very partial evidence I have heard. I said much earlier — though with over 800 comments, it could easily have been missed — that I thought that Mr Zimmerman shouldn’t be being tried at all, and that this was a miscarriage of justice in that the appropriate authorities, the one’s whose responsibility it was to take that decision, were overridden by outsiders based on a purely political motive.

    Even without that consideration, what testimony I’ve heard does not seem to me to meet the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt; I’m not certain that it would meet a preponderance of the evidence standard.

    My argument is solely that the incident was caused by Mr Zimmerman’s actions in choosing to play policeman when the real authorities told him not to do that.

    It seems to me that many people here believe that if Trayvon Martin was a bad guy, then George Zimmerman must be a good guy; on the other side of the fence — say, on the Lost Kos — it’s frequently the other way around, that Mr Zimmerman must be a sans-hood Klansman, and Mr Martin as pure as the wind-driven snow. To me, one being wrong does not make the other automatically right: Mr Martin could well have been the aggressor in starting the physical confrontation even if Mr Zimmerman created the situation which led up to it.

    This case also raises an interesting conundrum for our friends on the left: the better outcome is that Mr Zimmerman is acquitted, because, while Mr Martin is still going to be dead, that doesn’t have Mr Zimmerman spending the rest of his life in jail. But for the left to see that as the better outcome, they have to admit fault on the part of Mr Martin, which they are unwilling to do.

    Comment by The Dana explaining himself (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:27 am

  819. If inmates in Florida’s penitentiaries watched Dr Rao’s performance on the stand yesterday all those convicted on evidence from her office celebrated their good fortune. They’ll be lined up waiting to see jail-house lawyers to file appeals based on her malfeasance.

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:31 am

  820. “Surls feels personal pride for having predicted…”

    Just satisfaction that things went the way I said they ought to.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:32 am

  821. Milhouse wrote:

    There are two possible views of what was going on there. The more benign view is as you have presented it: that they were profiling groups with “TEA Party” in their name as more likely than others (including those with “Progressive” in their names) to be in violation of the relevant laws.

    Actually, it makes sense: since much of the Taxed Enough Already Party’s beliefs are centered around the belief that our taxes are too high, I can see why people at the Infernal Revenue Service might think it reasonable that such people would be more motivated to evade income taxes. I just don’t believe that they should have been profiling anyone based on his political beliefs.

    Comment by The snarky Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:34 am

  822. In spite of the fact that I’m psychotic and a clown.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:36 am

  823. GZ is a racist meth-head skinhead

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:40 am

  824. He seems to have grown his hair out. Don’t think you can call him a skinhead any more.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:45 am

  825. “My argument is solely that the incident was caused by Mr Zimmerman’s actions in choosing to play policeman when the real authorities told him not to do that.”
    *Comment by The Dana explaining himself (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:27 am*

    What are the qualifications of 911 operators that make them “real authorities”? Are they sworn and trained LEOs? What makes them better judges of the situation than a man on the scene?

    I keep remembering a story a while back where a grandmother alone with her grand daughter found an intruder on a shelf in the grand daughter’s closet. She confronted him with a gun while the grand daughter called 911. On the 911 tape you could hear the old woman commanding the intruder to come out and then you heard a shot. The operator immediately asked if the old woman had shot him and ordered the grand daughter to tell her grand mother to stop shooting him.

    I was struck at the time that the operator had no way to know if the man was armed or was attacking the old woman. What if she had stopped shooting and he had raped and killed them? If they have a knee jerk reaction to stop using deadly force to defend yourself in a dangerous situation without any reason to believe that force was not justified and appropriate, then why should one obey them without question when the circumstances seem to indicate otherwise?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:45 am

  826. Would the people who are crying for this wannabe gangster thug rather live in a neighborhood with more George Zimmermans or more Trayvon Martins? Who would even Jesse Jackson prefer to see walking past his house and looking at his windows and cars as they pull out?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:52 am

  827. Also the 911 operator, even if invested with such authority, did not invoke it. Such passive language as “we don’t need you to do that” is hardly an order.

    Its the opposite of an order, an explanation that the 911 operator is not advising him to do that, and is not requesting that action. It is not an order to stop. And yet, Z. says “ok” and asjusts by not “doing that” anymore.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:52 am

  828. Machinist

    the 911 people are very experienced and highly trained professionals who are better able to access a situation and send the right people to the scene than lets say a guy in a pickup truck with a gun.

    Megan Kelly, surprised me just a minute ago when she said their is no way those 6 women are going to ignore the fact that a kid who didn’t or wasnt doing anything wrong, ended up dead

    This maybe in reaction to the DNA guy stated I think there was no DNA of Zimmerman’s on Martins fists.

    I could have misheard – but if its true – that martin didn’t hit Zimmerman hard enough to get DNA then – well – his story of fearing for his life maybe weakened further?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:55 am

  829. “My argument is solely that the incident was caused by Mr Zimmerman’s actions in choosing to play policeman when the real authorities told him not to do that.”

    Calling the police is playing policeman? The only person he talked to was a dispatch operator, someone who held no real authority or training over him. When did the concept of a neighborhood watch become so controversial?

    Oh, and saying the incident was caused by GZ is about as factual as saying it was caused by the school suspending him.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:58 am

  830. and as a disclaimer – I am a aggressively dishonest liar who is a moby, and a troll and a terrorist sympathizer who wants guns in the hands of code pink only……

    not really but I wanted so save everyone from hand cramps from pounding their keyboards…

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:59 am

  831. “I could have misheard – but if its true – that martin didn’t hit Zimmerman hard enough to get DNA then – well – his story of fearing for his life maybe weakened further?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:55 am ”

    So it’s your contention that Zimmerman broke his own nose and bashed his own head on the concrete as Martin watched?

    What is the training given to 911 operators that makes then able to evaluate the situation better than a man on the scene. Do they get more training than Zimmerman had?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:00 pm

  832. to save, I wanted to save everyone.

    I also think its funny in spite of Greta Van Sus tweeting that she has a contract that Kelly said three times that she is coming back to host in prime time = hilarious

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:01 pm

  833. The head injuries occurred on the cement?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:01 pm

  834. machinist

    I’m just repeating what I heard on TV and again – Zimmerman’s nose was not broken.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:02 pm

  835. He chances of EPWJ describing testimony accurately is slightly below 0.00003873691%

    Those highly trained professional civilian 9/11 operators in Cleveland sure were awesome. Maybe they were trained at the same place the highly trained nationally respected Mesi am examiner was trained at.

    I forgot, it is over.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:03 pm

  836. “Oh, and saying the incident was caused by GZ is about as factual as saying it was caused by the school suspending him.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:58 am ”

    JD, there is precedent. I was just reading that the government in Egypt was saying the woman raped at anti-government protests were 100% at fault for going where men were. I guess if you try to help a rape victim then any harm coming to the rapist is your fault, too.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:04 pm

  837. I’m just repeating what I heard on TV and again – Zimmerman’s nose was not broken.

    Again, his do you state this in direct contradiction to the a that doctor that examined him?

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:04 pm

  838. I am curious. Have any of you ever read the book by Gavin de Becker titled The Gift of Fear? IMO it should have been called “The Gift of Intuition”. But whatever.

    His premise is that embedded in our millions of years of survival DNA is the ability to know when something in a situation is not right and when we are in danger if we just pay attention to this gift. The book focuses on self defense (both physical and mental) but only after he deeply explores criminal psychology.

    Comment by elissa (3eda8a) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:08 pm

  839. machinist

    I’m just repeating what I heard on TV and again – Zimmerman’s nose was not broken.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:02 pm”

    Well then he was obviously in no danger. If a thug is on top of you beating on you MMA style you can’t defend yourself until he breaks your nose. Got it.

    So a police officer being beaten this way would not be justified in using deadly force?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:08 pm

  840. machinist,

    that was a totally silly question, most/many 911 operators are LEO’s that for health reasons cannot patrol or EMT’s likewise.

    If this is your level of , disparaging everyone but the hero Zimmerman, then well, there’s no where to go, the medical examiner is crazy, the DA’s are corrupt, the judge is bought, the DNA guy is wrong, the 911 team is corrupt and incompetent – the constitution is violated yada yada

    A guy, shot a kid, no one saw his head being slammed and he had no significant injuries to correspond with his one sided version of events

    And if I heard right NO dna on martins hands?

    not good for Z

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:09 pm

  841. elissa, that sounds rather like Jeff Cooper’s old writings on situational awareness and it’s importance to personal security.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:10 pm

  842. http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16353532

    Lets put EPWJ’s lying to bed, yet again.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:10 pm

  843. The only thing you can say is that 1 1/2 minutes later, George Zimmerman changes his plan at the last moment.

    He had agreed to at first to meet the police at the mailboxes. That would entail walking back to his car (about 150 feet) and then driving the car back to the mailboxes away from the direction in which TM had fled.

    It probably occurs to him, as Milhouse said in the scenario in comment 661:

    In the alternative universe in which this happened, Zim knew that police were coming, and would be there in five or ten or fifteen minutes, by which time they would do…what? The suspicious character would be long gone, the police would pat him on the head and say “well done reporting that”,…

    and then there’d be some more burglaries maybe.

    He wants to maximize the chances the police will find the man if he’s still there and stop and question him, so he says no, he’ll tell the police where to meet him. This can only be because he doesn’t want to drive back to the mailboxes, and the only logical reason for that is that’ll put him further away from the boy.

    It’s probably not because he’s too lazy to drive or it will be out of his way. It would have been no more than a one minute drive or so. And if it is because he will miss the police – well, it takes him longer. He knows it will take him longer because he says he’ll call back the police (that gives him some time) and tell them where he is.

    Now it is almost certainly not his intent to confront Trayvon Martin but it could be it is his intention to try and see if he’s still around, maybe doing something illegal. That’s not what he says later. What he says is, he was looking to find the name of a street so he could tell police where he is.

    George Zimmerman then walks in the direction in which Trayvon Martin had disappeared. He had stopped chasing at 2:34 into the 4:07 minute call and at about 3:40 into the call he had said, after being asked his apartment number:

    It’s One nine five zero [1950] – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it all out – I don’t know where this kid is

    In other words, he thinks Trayvon Martin might be hanging around near him and hiding – and maybe he can hear what he is saying on the telephone call – and he’s afraid maybe he will come over and rob him or something later if he knows where he lives.

    So anyway he goes to check and make sure that Trayvon Martin is NOT there, or maybe to see if he is, in addition to walking further than he thought to get the address.

    On his way back he gets attacked.

    Because GZ doesn’t see TM but TM sees GZ.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:12 pm

  844. machinist

    where’s the dna evidence of a beating?

    where’s the injuries sustained from at least a 30 second beating, no bruises, no swelling?

    I agree Z got punched in the face, made a cut on his nose, got his head banged at least once – is it going to convince a jury that he was in danger of dying – think its going to be a hung jury and then some plea deal

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:13 pm

  845. most/many 911 operators are LEO’s that for health reasons cannot patrol or EMT’s likewise.

    You are kidding, right?

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:13 pm

  846. “Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:09 pm”

    And I maintain that any rational person finding themselves or a loved one in Zimmerman’s situation would feel justified in defending themselves or their loved one, and to deny Zimmerman that right is stupid and corrupt.

    What percentage of 911 operators are ex LEOs?

    And yes, I do consider Zimmerman and people like him that watch out for their neighbors to be heroes. We need more of them today.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:15 pm

  847. Yes, JD. Exactly. That 911 operator who first took the hysterical call from the Ohio girl clearly identifying herself as the missing girl who along with 2 others were being held as sex slaves for a decade, wasn’t exactly impressive in either competence or compassion.

    Comment by elissa (3eda8a) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:16 pm

  848. I agree Z got punched in the face, made a cut on his nose, got his head banged at least once – is it going to convince a jury that he was in danger of dying

    You are so dishonest. Good testified to seeing TM beating GZ. The medical evidence includes a broken nose, back injury, and lacerations to his head. The ME you laud never evaluated GZ.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:17 pm

  849. If Trayvon Martin had not elected to act suspiciously that night, cutting across the private patios of residents and peering in their windows, instead sticking to public walkways, perhaps there would have been no reason for George Zimmerman to act like a concerned resident attempting to prevent further crime from occurring in his neighborhood.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:17 pm

  850. If we could go back in time and tell George
    This won’t turn out well and you should back off
    Would he avoid hammer, anvil and forge
    Or listen to our advice and just scoff
    If we could go back in time and tell Tray
    Don’t start this fight, it won’t go well for you
    Would he heed our warning or laugh and say
    Don’t worry ’bout me; the white boy will rue
    The day that he mess’d with this bad ass bro
    I’ll kick his white ass and beat in his head
    That creepy ass cracker will surely know
    That he’s damn lucky that he isn’t dead
    Alas! that hindsight is twenty-twenty
    The blame for all this? There is plenty!

    Comment by The Sonnet Avenger (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:17 pm

  851. Being in danger of dying is not the standard, EPWJ.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:18 pm

  852. JD, remember a certain commenter here claiming that asking him if he was willing to have rocks thrown at him was making death threats against him? I guess the standards of what puts you in danger tend to shift.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:18 pm

  853. As usual the only liar is again JD who didn’t tell you that this was an official medical report but a note from a “family doctor” of Zimmerman

    A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman

    shame on you JD for lying yet again do you have any integrity?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:19 pm

  854. 30 second beating, no bruises, no swelling?

    Those are lies. And you are a liar.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:19 pm

  855. His family doctor evaluated him. And made his report. I lied about nothing.

    Comment by JD (cead21) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:21 pm

  856. What EPJW doesn’t know about bruises and swelling is a lot.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:21 pm

  857. Machinist

    JD can take his comments to the Fischer DA and see for himself whether they though his repeatedly asking me to submit was a threat or not.

    Then lets find out right? Made once in passing, but JD made it several times, over several days and is now bringing it up again – why – what does this have to do with this case?

    Other than discrediting this entire blog as a place to have a discussion?

    You were the guy if I remember who thoroughly disgraced himself by saying that the other 911 hijack victims were cowards correct – that was you wasn’t it?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:22 pm

  858. What he doesn’t know about integrity is more.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:22 pm

  859. Sarahw

    What the medical examiner knows is what I was going on, you can compare and contrast your experience, but carry on I don’t want Z convicted but its not looking as good as everyone thinks IMO

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:25 pm

  860. EPWJ – you need to lock the liquor cabinet back up.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:25 pm

  861. ==why – what does this have to do with this case?==

    Remind me again. What does Sara Hultgreen have to do with this case?

    Comment by elissa (3eda8a) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:26 pm

  862. The family dr. saw him the next day.
    Here’s the EMT report from that night: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:26 pm

  863. http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.UdR6tG20TKc

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:27 pm

  864. Machinist,

    What did you write about the other 3 planes – about the people on them.

    Then let everyone judge for themselves what you are.

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:29 pm

  865. tifosa, we’ve seen detailed photographs of Zimmerman’s injuries. Your claim above that he had no “defensive” injuries (besides sounding like you watch too much CSI on TV) is simply brazenly false.

    Whereever you read that, whatever lying TV commentator said that, or whatever MSNBC lying hack you listened to, was lying flat out.

    Probably intentionally so.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:30 pm

  866. E.PWJ, I didn’t see JD bring that up, I did. You claimed that young people throwing rocks at a border patrolman posed no threat but when asked if you would be willing to be put in the situation you claimed these were death threats against you. If you were asked several times it was because of your dishonest evasions and dodging.

    I did say that hundreds of adults should not have sat passively while four to six men with box cutters tortured women until they were allowed into the control room of aircraft and that we were wrong to indoctrinate young people to submit to evil that way as we do. I still feel that way. The proper response to violence against the innocent is action, not passive submission and obedience.

    Maybe that is why I see Zimmerman as a hero and you see him as a criminal.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:30 pm

  867. EPWJ reminds me of Ron White’s comedy routine “Drunk in PUBLICK”

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:31 pm

  868. I see machinist isn’t answering the question – which is typical…

    Look you don’t have to answer, you were upset typed something you probably didn’t really mean that way.

    But that’s okay impugn my character at will though all for reporting what I heard on TV

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:33 pm

  869. SPQR, what defensive injury did GZ have?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:34 pm

  870. A red mark, abrasion, bruise, broken fingernail that shows he protected his head?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:35 pm

  871. Dana, thanks for the gracious response and clarification (#818 — 7/3/2013 @ 11:27 am).

    Comment by Beldar (83942c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:35 pm

  872. What question did I not answer in comment #866?

    I am quite content to have people judge me on what I have said here now and before.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:36 pm

  873. Beldar speculated:

    Although an alternative theory is that they’re simply pretending not to because that’s necessary to comply with what I presume to be their marching orders — to get a conviction no matter what, regardless of the evidence and even if it’s based solely on racial prejudice and politics.

    The thought of such amuses me: I’m trying to think of just how much of a bind whomever gave such orders would have put himself in. Can you imagine what the reaction would be if the prosecutors, assuming that they lose, were to say, “Well, we knew we had a crappy case going in, and didn’t want to do this in the first place, but we had to follow the orders of Pam Bondi and Al Sharpton.”

    Thing is, Mr Beldar’s alternative theory is as plausible as anything else; unless the prosecutors really are as dumb as Debbie Whatshername Schultz, they had to know that all they had was junk. When your star witness is Rachel Jeantel, you know you don’t have much.

    Comment by The amused Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:37 pm

  874. tifosa, you do realize that a person’s actual injuries are irrelevant to an assertion of self defense, right? (I think you do, and you’re just being your typical disingenuous self here.) If you don’t realize it, read the whole thread: it’s been thoroughly explained by nk and Beldar.

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (7c7e89) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:37 pm

  875. “But that’s okay impugn my character at will though all for reporting what I heard on TV

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:33 pm ”

    I couldn’t impugn it as well as you do.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:38 pm

  876. == for reporting what I heard on TV==

    Eric, I’m guessing that everybody here who is following the Zimmerman case and watching the trial proceed has a TV. It is really not necessary for you to “report” what you heard on TV. Just sayin’.

    Comment by elissa (3eda8a) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:40 pm

  877. This is surreal

    Comment by JD (a3f19f) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:40 pm

  878. Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:13 pm

    where’s the dna evidence of a beating?

    DNA evidence? You mean somebody should have tested that blood on Zimmerman and proved it came from him and not Trayvon Martin?

    Does a broken nose and scalp wounds count?

    where’s the injuries sustained from at least a 30 second beating, no bruises, no swelling?

    George Zimmerman knew enough of fighting that he knew to slow down the speed at which his head hit the ground and get the brunt of the impact on parts of his body that would not sustain much injury or that were covered by layers of clothing.

    He was handicapped in wrestling with Trayvon Martin in that he was trying to hide the gun.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:41 pm

  879. I agree Z got punched in the face, made a cut on his nose, got his head banged at least once – is it going to convince a jury that he was in danger of dying – think its going to be a hung jury and then some plea deal

    First of all, that itself carries with it some danger of dying. Second he had a gun, which might be grabbed. Third he doesn’t need to be in danger of dying, but only facing a felony – and I think the kind of assault and battery he was undergoing was a felony.

    The law of battery:

    http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/chapter784.html

    http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/784.03.html

    Seems like it is not a felony unless he was convicted before of misdemeanor battery.

    But …

    http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/784.041.html

    784.041 Felony battery; domestic battery by strangulation.—

    (1) A person commits felony battery if he or she:

    (a) Actually and intentionally touches or strikes another person against the will of the other; and

    (b) Causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement.

    But George Zimmerman DIDN’T suffer “great bodily harm” you say!

    But deadly force is justified against an ATTEMPT to commit a felony.

    This would be here an attempt to cause great bodily harm, and surely we can say Trayvon Martin was attempting that, or at least George Zimmerman had reason to fear it.

    Especially if, as George Zimmerman has said, Trayvon Martin had belatedly noticed the gun and mentioned it to George Zimmerman, and said he (GZ) was now going to die.

    Even if you could have some reasonable doubt as to whwether George Zimmerman was telling the truth on that point.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:50 pm

  880. 625. Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/2/2013 @ 8:56 pm

    I just hope that if I ever get indicted for a crime, that these are the prosecutors that handle my trial.

    No, that the evidence will be as much in your favor. It’s the evidence – the facts – that is what is causing all this trouble for the prosecution.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:52 pm

  881. Just satisfaction that things went the way I said they ought to.
    – The prosecution blowing a case that they never should have brought in the first place is the way things ought to have gone?

    In spite of the fact that I’m psychotic and a clown.
    – In your case, it’s BECAUSE of that fact.

    He seems to have grown his hair out. Don’t think you can call him a skinhead any more.
    – And by “you”, you mean YOU.

    Comment by Icy (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:52 pm

  882. 876. Not everybody has cable. And the Internet can be slow.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:52 pm

  883. mAchinist

    again that’s not what I said and that’s not what happened. That still has no bearing on a discussion, an opinion need to have violent threats constantly brought up and repeated?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:53 pm

  884. Actually, though we have a TV we do not have cable, so I am interested when people point out meaningful events of the day.

    And speaking of pointing out, maybe we should make a volunteer schedule for those willing to summarize any new and worthwhile discussion every 100 posts or so.

    I appreciate those who are steadfast in trying to keep the facts in the forefront, but i want help avoiding the temptation to sit and read every post since I saw it last this am with less than 700.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:53 pm

  885. EPWJ reminds me of Ron White’s comedy routine “Drunk in PUBLICK”
    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:31 pm

    – They let him out in public?

    Comment by Icy (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:54 pm

  886. Sammy

    Its not good when you claim someone beat you up so you shot him dead and none of you is on his knuckles – if that is indeed what the guy said – I may have misheard – but if that is the case – its not the best thing for Z to a jury right?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:55 pm

  887. EPWJ

    There have been instances of rape where no dna has been found to have been exchanged.
    Plenty of truama and evidence, just none of his dna on her or her dna on him.
    It happens.

    Everyone watches CSI Miami and thinks that every crime is awash in dna… and it may be. But can we collect and measure everything to that standard?
    Evidently not at the Sanford PD level

    I am pretty sure that the final punch of a fight:
    A. Could break/bloody a nose
    B. Leave no blood etc on hand, clothing of person delivering punch

    Comment by steveg (794291) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:56 pm

  888. “That still has no bearing on a discussion, an opinion need to have violent threats constantly brought up and repeated?”

    I can’t tell what you are trying to say there.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:58 pm

  889. ~ouch, musta hurt when the recoil from the gun popped GZ in the nose~

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:59 pm

  890. A red mark, abrasion, bruise, broken fingernail that shows he protected his head?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:35 pm

    Whereever you are copying that from, tifosa, they are liars. Why do you think that making false statements is going to impress anyone here? Who have been following the details of this case for months.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:01 pm

  891. I looked at the pics of both sides of GZ’s hands from SPD. You have something else?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:04 pm

  892. I think prosecution is quietly trying to undo their own perp walk. “Sorry, we tried. But the facts had us hog-tied.”

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:05 pm

  893. tifosa, his head you idiot.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:05 pm

  894. his head wounds aren’t defensive.

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:06 pm

  895. 900 comments on a backwater California blog.

    Just shows how comprehensive and dedicated the statists and race baiters are in railroading the Cuban kid.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:09 pm

  896. tifosa, really? His head wounds come from his attack on Martin? How? He head butted him backwards?

    You are truly bizarre.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:09 pm

  897. his head wounds aren’t defensive.
    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:06 pm

    Strictly speaking, perhaps not,
    but unless you suggest Z was attacking Martin with the back of his head, they are evidence that Z was getting the worst of the interaction prior to the gunshot.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:11 pm

  898. tifosa, you really are in some bizarre alternate reality. You can’t create a scenario where the fact that he was getting his head beaten upon/against the ground is not significant but his lack of serious wounds on his hands is significant.

    Fire can’t melt steel, right tifosa?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:11 pm

  899. SPQR, we both thought of the same possibility, I guess it must have happened that way after all

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:12 pm

  900. MD in Philly, I’m not interested enough to go do any searches to figure out what whackjobs are feeding tifosa this horse manure.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:13 pm

  901. But Surls reappearance was sure bizarre. Celebrating that the prosecution is doing such a bad job … “like he predicted would happen” …

    Dave Surreal should be his nick.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:14 pm

  902. ==Actually, though we have a TV we do not have cable, so I am interested when people point out meaningful events of the day.==

    MD–my comment about TV was addressed specifically to EPWJ and his ever helpful parsing of “the news”. If you want to get your meaningful info from his posts be my guest. But I don’t think you do.

    Comment by elissa (3eda8a) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:15 pm

  903. Supergenius, wile e coyote level:

    (LI–Branca author)Under O’Mara’s questioning it became clear that much of the content put into evidence by the State may have been contained in the class textbook but was never actually covered in class. The greatest blow, however, came with O’Mara’s last question (as has happened before) when he asked Pleasant what Zimmerman had told him about his career goals. Pleasant answered,”he said he wanted to be an attorney, and eventually become a Prosecutor.”

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:15 pm

  904. 886. Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 12:55 pm

    Sammy

    Its not good when you claim someone beat you up so you shot him dead

    George Zimmerman never claimed to be completely beaten up, but he was not able to escape. People saw them struggling.

    and none of you is on his knuckles

    Trayvon Martin was most probably mostly beating George Zimmerman on his clothes and trying to force him against the ground.

    He did punch him in the face, but the only place George Zimmerman bled from was the back and top of his head, as far as I know.

    He had a broken nose. He did not have a bloody nose.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:19 pm

  905. if that is indeed what the guy said – I may have misheard – but if that is the case – its not the best thing for Z to a jury right?

    No, it just proves George Zimmerman was not spurting blood.

    He was hit – he wasn’t stabbed.

    And I think even when someone stabs someone with a knife they don’t always get blood on themselves.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:20 pm

  906. Unless there’s something more, #737. :)

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:23 pm

  907. tifosa, have you been getting into EPWJ’s liquor cabinet?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:24 pm

  908. Why would defensive wounds matter? TM jumped him, hit him out of the blue, without warning. That he did not block a punch means nothing. I suppose the broken nose and head lacerations were offensive wounds?

    Comment by JD (a3f19f) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:27 pm

  909. This did go they way they intended;

    (Branca)
    West’s cross-examination of Carter, however, was devastating for the State. Carter described Zimmerman as “one of my best students,” and asked what grade he had assigned he answered, “an A.” (Interestingly, when Captain Carter had first entered the court room he had said, “Hi,” to Zimmerman.) Then West led Carter through a lengthy discussion–a lecture, really–of Florida’s self-defense law. It was like a legal seminar for the jury, and West particularly emphasized that there was no legal requirement to have actually incurred any injury whatever before you can act in self-defense. Carter even opined that you definitely would not want to wait to act in self-defense until you had been seriously injured. As the State saw the narrative spinning against them they repeatedly objected, constraining West’s cross. By then, however, the damage had largely been done to the State’s theory of the case.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:28 pm

  910. when you call 911 here in LA, you get self-important government slugs who want to play20 questions with you instead of actually transferring you to the actual dispatch people.

    there was a major MVA down the street by my house, with a vehicle on its side up on the sidewalk, etc, which stopped all traffic, thus blocking my view.

    because i couldn’t describe each vehicle in detail, the 991 idiot refused to transfer me to LAFD to dispatch paramedics.

    another time, a guy was beating a woman in a car in front of my house, and rather than patch me through to LAPD emergency, they insisted that i provide details such as car make & the plate, neither of which i could see, while he kept whaling on her. from experience, this info doesn’t get transferred when they finally deign to forward your call, because you have to give it all over again, so they are just being self-important.

    the only good thing in this instance is that, by the time i got the shotgun out, she had managed to drive off, so 911 offered to transfer me to the NON-emergency dispatch number.

    911 is a joke and the people on the other end are your stereotypical government employees who’d rather fill in blanks than actually accomplish their mission. after all, they are safe inside a protected building, so what do they care?

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:34 pm

  911. and i have more 911 horror stories… one killed a guy i was doing CPR on with others

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:37 pm

  912. narciso, did you see a photo of the defense-friendly Alex Carter?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:40 pm

  913. In New York City the new 911 system isn’t quite working, at least for ambulances. It loses (or buffers) calls.

    The City Time system which was supposed to save money by making time stamping more accurate ran up a tremendous overrun

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:44 pm

  914. He had a broken nose. He did not have a bloody nose.

    Really?

    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:44 pm

  915. tifosa – Can you please describe what defensive head wounds would look like?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:47 pm

  916. These obtuse blockheads want the White Hispanic’s blood and they don’t give a damn about a fair trial or the presumption of innocence or any other of the protections usually afforded to an accused. George Zimmerman used a handgun to kill an unarmed teenager who happened to be black.

    To the mindless lynch-mob ghouls commenting here that’s enough to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree Murder and banish him to prison. Lie, twist the evidence, invent self-serving narratives, deny the obvious, whatever it takes to make sure justice is served.

    They know better but the blood sport is just too good an opportunity to pass up, and anyway they’re not on trial for selling guns to Mexican drug smugglers or using the IRS to suppress political opposition or preventing US forces from rescuing Americans under fire in Benghazi.

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:47 pm

  917. One of the side issues in this case is where the fighting occurred.

    The Martin family lawyers and/or the prosecution would like to pretend that it is George Zimmerman’s position that the fighting took place on the sidewalk. They would like to maintain that his claim of his head having hit the sidewalk is a lie.

    Witnesses, of course, and the position of Trayvon Martin’s body, indicate a fight on the grass.

    Perhaps George Zimmerman’s lawyer’s don’t want to clarify this thing too much because if he was in the grass in the end his peril is lower. I don’t know, maybe they have made it clear.

    But the fight started on the sidewalk. While GZ was not able to get off the ground he was able to move sideways, in fact they were even rolling around I think.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:50 pm

  918. I disavow any responsibility for the misinformation EPWJ has obtained from TV or elsewhere about the Martin shooting and this trial. When there is actual testimony to review or documentary evidence to see it is incumbent on the commenter to make best use of available resources rather than offering a cowardly excuse about relying on biased third parties for information.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:51 pm

  919. ropelight — the goal right now is to cook up an excuse for a riot.

    Comment by Rob Crawford (c55962) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:52 pm

  920. Any mark that showed an attempt to block blows.
    “defense wound
    Forensic pathology A wound sustained when a victim places a hand, arm or other body part to prevent or minimize a blow or slashing by a sharp weapon”

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:55 pm

  921. Almost 300 comments just today; has any Patterico thread reached 1,000 comments?

    Comment by The Dana who can count (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 1:58 pm

  922. tifosa, Martin did not have a knife. And Fire Can’t Melt Steel!

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:00 pm

  923. tifosa – Again, what does a defensive head wound look like?

    More importantly, how do you get one with someone sitting on top of you raining blows down on you MMA style?

    Help me out here.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:01 pm

  924. It looks like Zimmerman blocked the blows with his head!

    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:02 pm

  925. It looks like Zimmerman blocked the blows with his head!

    Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:02 pm

    There’s a thread winner. Shall we call it a day?

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:05 pm

  926. What can be said in defense – or maybe rather in explanation – of Trayvon Martin’s attack?

    Trayvon Martin was Crip, or an apprentice Crip. His father, Tracy Martin, was a Crip.

    Trayvon Martin’s Father Scrutinized Over Gang-Related Activity

    Yesterday, right-leaning blogger Sundance of widely-read The Conservative Tree House released several photos of Tracy Martin, some of which date back to 2010.

    One shows Martin posing with a crowd of people in which, according to the blog, a finger sign denoting Crips membership is visible. Another portrays him standing in a different crowd with a cityscape and raining dollar bills in the background.

    In these photos, Martin himself is making some sort of hand sign. Other individuals photographed are doing the same. TCTH identified said signs as gang-related.

    The Conservative Tree House link is here. Tracy Martin later cleaned up his tattoo. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/30/Trayvon-Martin-s-Father-Cleaning-Up-Gang-Related-Past

    Now Trayvon Martin knew nothing about Neighborhood watches. he did know about gang fights. And in high schools, cell phones are used by gang members to call other gang members to the scene.

    George Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt

    That’s a gang color. To Trayvon Martin, he could be a Blood.

    The Crips and Bloods fight each other.

    You Tube video Memorial Weekend 2011 Miami Beach Blood V.s. Crips

    (described as Bloods and crips throwin gang signs all of sudden bottles started flyin…… out of no where police draws there tazers and chase some guys…..)

    You Tube video Bloods and Crips rapping in FL

    (described as Bloods and crips rapping in FLORIDA, starts off as a rap battle buts ends up in a big fight latter on that night check out video named FL Fight on my page)

    They were known to be in the Orlando area too:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/orlando/1405991-since-when-did-orlando-become-hub.html

    So when Trayvon Martin saw George Zimmerman, wearing a red shirt, pick up a cell phone, he thought he was calling his fellow Bloods to beat him up, and he ran away.

    But he either had an appointment or didn’t want him to know where he lived.

    When he saw him again GZ again was picking up his cell phone, and Trayvon Martin decided that the way to save his life was to beat up GZ before he could get other Bloods to come after him.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:05 pm

  927. You actually could get a defensive head wound, but they wouldn’t look like Mr Zimmerman’s. Bowing down your head to take blows on the forehead or top of skull instead of the nose, face and jaw could leave wounds on the top of your head.

    As for the back of his head, it is possible that such wounds could have come from Mr Martin’s fists, had Mr Zimmerman been able to turn around and try to flee, but such action has never been alleged.

    Comment by The practical Dana (3e4784) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:05 pm

  928. Yes, Dana, I recall a thread that went over 1000 comments but I can’t remember the topic.

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:07 pm

  929. papertiger #925, that should be the threadwinner. On the other hand, our friend, The Dana, wins for threadwhiner.

    LOL. Or whatever.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:10 pm

  930. I seem to recall a thread that surpassed 1K comments last summer—perhaps around the time of the GOP convention ? I do remember there was a consciousness of reaching a thousand, so people were padding the number with very brief comments, just for fun.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:15 pm

  931. You could begin a fight on the sidewalk, roll over (or be rolled over) and be on the grass.

    It’s a trap! The prosecution is calling all of the good defense witnesses, so their testimony will be forgotten by the time the jury’s deliberating.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:15 pm

  932. Actually, it makes sense: since much of the Taxed Enough Already Party’s beliefs are centered around the belief that our taxes are too high, I can see why people at the Infernal Revenue Service might think it reasonable that such people would be more motivated to evade income taxes. I just don’t believe that they should have been profiling anyone based on his political beliefs.

    They might indeed think it a reasonable speculation, but they had no basis for it in reality. They had no data to back it up. If they had such data, and it showed what they expected, then their actions would have been reasonable.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:16 pm

  933. Just to be clear, when I get my info from this site, I am selective about which commenters I believe.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:16 pm

  934. Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:15 pm

    I bet I asked before if there was going to be a prize for comment #1000.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:18 pm

  935. Is there going to be a prize for comment #1000?

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:19 pm

  936. We’re going to be over a thousand before the prosecution rests. We may be over by midnight tonight.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:20 pm

  937. Milhouse (#931): If they’re going to use guesses and stereotypes they could just as easily have assumed that groups that routinely left the areas they demonstrated in cleaner than when they got there are likely to be more scrupulous than the average American in making sure they get their taxes just right. They’d probably be right, too, though that’s no way to make decisions on whom to audit.

    Comment by Dr. Weevil (40c627) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:21 pm

  938. Reports are that the prosecution is resting today, and the defense case is set to begin on Friday.

    Its hard to make this statement definitively not being in the courtroom and hearing all that has taken place, but given the fact that the prosecution put on Zimmerman’s videotaped interview where he went over the entire episode — and that version has not been meaningfully impeached in any manner that I can see, the trial judge should grant an directed verdict of acquittal on Friday, finding that no reasonable juror could find all the elements of the charged offense under a beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

    Comment by shipwreckedcrew (5de044) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:23 pm

  939. I say defense doesn’t bother putting Z on the stand. Handed “Depraved mind” unproven, self-defense nolo contendere, they’ll just sum up.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:24 pm

  940. Dana, Milhouse, a little quiz.

    When is the last time Jewish religious authorities ordered a stoning?

    When was the first time Christian religious authorities ordered a stoning?

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:28 pm

  941. 927. Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:07 pm

    Yes, Dana, I recall a thread that went over 1000 comments but I can’t remember the topic.

    And 2,000. And 3,000. Almost two years ago exactly now. Started June 30, 2011.

    Weinergate!

    http://patterico.com/2011/06/30/someone-smarter-than-me-explain-why-this-is-not-possible/

    Comments (3,765)

    3,765 Comments

    Patterico stopped making new posts on Weinergate because he was SWATted, apparently figuring that whoever wouldn’t pay attention to old threads.

    Althouygh we didn’t know for a long time that there was a SWATting. But i think that was the resason for the long thread, lthough it made sense in its own right, as long as the web broswers could handle it, which they couldn’t always. we had been going from thread to thread on Weiner every other day or more.

    (Who did the SWATting? Best guess: Neal Rauerhauser and Ron Brynaert, trying to keep hidden the role of the non-defunct Anthony Pellicano detective agency in exposing Anthony Weiner acting at the behest of people in China supporting John Liu for Mayor of New York)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:28 pm

  942. shipwreckedcrew, while I agree that the judge should grant a motion for directed verdict, somehow I doubt that this judge will do the right thing.

    Any reason to think I’m wrong?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:30 pm

  943. ABC News of video of George Zimmerman the night he shot Trayvon Martin showing him wearing the red shirt that possibly caused Trayvon Martin to profile George Zimmerman as a Blood who was calling for reinforcements to help him beat up Trayvon Martin.

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:31 pm

  944. “When was the first time Christian religious authorities ordered a stoning?”

    Steve57 – The authorities used boarding and dunking in the Salem Witch Trials, but those may have been civil authorities although the distinction was probably meaningless at the time.

    Christianity does not currently call for your death for not obeying its principles, insulting God, or leaving Christianity. I’m pretty sure the Observant Dana knows that but just failed to remark upon it.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:35 pm

  945. Dana, Milhouse, a little quiz.

    When is the last time Jewish religious authorities ordered a stoning?

    Not really a fair question, since Jewish religious courts with both the authority and the power to order stonings have not existed since about the year 30 CE. Jews pray three times a day for the restoration of the legal system: “Restore our judges as at first [...] King Who loves justice and law”.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  946. Early story about Rachel Jeantel (Dee dee)

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

    This claims the call began at 7:12. That would have coincided with the last minute or minute and a half second half of the call George Zimmerman made to police. Trayvon Martin had alkready run away from George Zimmerman at that point, without ever speaking to him.

    She claimed to ABC (she later testified that she had no idea this was going to be broadcast but that she did know she was being taped) that she told him to run at the end of the call but instead Martin spoke to Zimmerman and asked him why he was following him.

    She said he said “what are you doing around here” (that story was later changed to make GZ more aggressive) and there was no reply but instead she claimed someone was pushed on to the grass. (later she claimed that was not a person)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  947. One could argue that the books in the bible and the parts of the torah that contain explicit legalism are included as cautionary tales.
    israel is told again and again to be careful what she is asking for when she wants kings and rules.
    The law is seen like big government… too much, too many, too impossible… so it is boiled down to love your neighbor and worship god. hard to get all overworked about that. also god is seen as being capable of deciding who goes to heaven, hell and god is also capable of handling insults aimed towards him/herself without the need of human intervention

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:43 pm

  948. 939 Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:24 pm

    .I say defense doesn’t bother putting Z on the stand. Handed “Depraved mind” unproven, self-defense nolo contendere, they’ll just sum up.

    They could do that, but it would help him to clear his name, and also to win the case, if he testified. (unless his tetsimoney were to be blown up. It doesn’t matter what irrelevancies they get him to disclose.)

    GZ’s biggest problem might be that he did not tell the whole truth to everyone about this 100% of the time.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:46 pm

  949. 418. Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/2/2013 @ 11:46 am

    I agree with Steve that Trayvon’s freaking out that George is watching him doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    I had an idea: Trayvon Martin saw George Zimmerman wearing a red shirt and following him
    and using a cell phone, and profiled him as a Blood calling for reinforcements to beat him up.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:48 pm

  950. I don’t know the 1,000 plus thread last summer.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:50 pm

  951. Morsi ousted by the Egyptian army.

    Comment by Icy (456cf4) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:51 pm

  952. Also – the Moslem Brotherhood is under investigation in Egypt for corruption.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:56 pm

  953. Now, if only our Army was as patriotic and dedicated as the Egyptian Army.

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:59 pm

  954. You have the Dog Trainer, we have the Fishwrap;

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/02/3482272/fabiola-santiago-zimmerman-has.html

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:04 pm

  955. *Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:31 pm*

    I guess he knew of a lot of “creepy ass crackers” in the Bloods.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:04 pm

  956. Being followed (particularly) in the dark bothers most people on a survival instinct level.
    It would be more remarkable if people are NOT bothered by it.

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:08 pm

  957. Yeah, Sammy, can you expound upon this theory of yours regarding white people as members of the Bloods ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:12 pm

  958. Oh, good lord, Sammy is out in the weeds yet again.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:14 pm

  959. (Who did the SWATting? Best guess: Neal Rauerhauser and Ron Brynaert, trying to keep hidden the role of the non-defunct Anthony Pellicano detective agency in exposing Anthony Weiner acting at the behest of people in China supporting John Liu for Mayor of New York)

    Effin’ EPIC

    Comment by JD (bc030e) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:17 pm

  960. *Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:31 pm*

    I guess he knew of a lot of “creepy ass crackers” in the Bloods.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:04 pm

    Honorable mention!

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:17 pm

  961. 3-26-2012 1311 comments on this case

    Comment by Lbcatcher (61737c) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:18 pm

  962. Is this the basis for the claim they found no Zimmerman DNA on Martin’s hands? That one swab under the nails did not find his DNA? That is a far cry from claiming no DNA on his hands. Not the first time this person has claimed news reports said things that turned out to be very different.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/03/zimmerman-school-records-at-issue-in-wednesday-hearing/?intcmp=trending

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:21 pm

  963. 944.

    Dana, Milhouse, a little quiz.

    When is the last time Jewish religious authorities ordered a stoning?

    Not really a fair question, since Jewish religious courts with both the authority and the power to order stonings have not existed since about the year 30 CE. Jews pray three times a day for the restoration of the legal system: “Restore our judges as at first [...] King Who loves justice and law”.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 2:42 pm

    No, it’s a fair question because during the final centuries of Jewish independence the Mishnah (the law that was transmitted in the oral tradition rather than in writing or Mikra) that a rabbinical court was “murderous” if it sentenced more than one man to death in a seven year period. In practice the rabbinical courts found some sort of point of law to avoid sentencing anyone to death.

    Point being you can not look at what is in the book of Leviticus or Deuteronomy and theorize about the actual practice of those judges when the Jews had their own independent legal system. It was not a harsh system.

    But over 2,000 years later we can look at what’s going on in countries that do give Islamic law free rein.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:25 pm

  964. *…the Mishnah taught that…*

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:26 pm

  965. Anyone want to compare the reality as opposed to the mythology of the practices of the medieval
    Catholic church to Islamic theocracies?

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:27 pm

  966. Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:04 pm

    I guess he knew of a lot of “creepy ass crackers” in the Bloods.

    That comment might have been made up.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:27 pm

  967. If I were to advertize this thread, Machinist and Cliff Diver’s comments would be in the teaser.

    BTW, I’m not padding the numbers with brief comments for fun.

    This is as good as it gets.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:33 pm

  968. “That comment might have been made up.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:27 pm ”

    So your attack on the credibility of the defense is that the prosecution witnesses are lying?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:41 pm

  969. Not bad, not bad at all.

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:49 pm

  970. Well lets forget from whom this whole thing started;

    http://twitchy.com/2013/07/03/al-sharpton-words-reveal-whats-in-your-heart-and-soul-so-whats-in-his-soul/

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:55 pm

  971. Latest Rasmussen Report for Wednesday, July 03, 2013

    Americans consider blacks more likely to be racist than whites and Hispanics in this country.

    Thirty-seven percent (37%) of American Adults think most black Americans are racist, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Just 15% consider most white Americans racist, while 18% say the same of most Hispanic Americans…

    Comment by ropelight (e18203) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:10 pm

  972. “That comment [about Trayvon Martin describing George Zimmerman as a crazxy ass cracker] might have been made up.”
    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:41 pm

    So your attack on the credibility of the defense is that the prosecution witnesses are lying?

    I’m not attacking the credibility of the defense.

    I am not saying that George Zimmerman was a Blood (although his earlier mug shot also shows him wearing a red shirt) I am sayinbg that trayvon Martin might have thought him to be a Blood and this might be the best explanation as to why he attacked him so ferociously.

    This actually bolsters the defense because the biggest problem for the defense (or for being believed by all people) is the question of why Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman.

    And of course the prosecution witneeses – the ones that come via the Martin family lawyers – don’t have any real credibility.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:12 pm

  973. Sammy, the bizarre drift of your comments is starting to concern me. Are you under the care of a medical professional?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:13 pm

  974. The commenters seem to be confused about what they saw;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-qAJmzhzJs&feature=player_embedded

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:17 pm

  975. Mr 57 asked:

    Dana, Milhouse, a little quiz.

    When is the last time Jewish religious authorities ordered a stoning?

    When was the first time Christian religious authorities ordered a stoning?

    That the enforcement mechanisms are different does not mean that those faiths do not try to set everything about people’s lives.

    But, to answer your question, while Christian authorities didn’t seem to use stoning as a punishment, we did have some rather gruesome penalties, and they weren’t all that long ago.

    It could be argued (though I won’t) that burning at the stake, which lasted until the early 18th century, lasted longer in Christendom (1,800 years) than stoning has in the Islamic world, since Islam dated from Mohammad’s earliest preaching in 632 AD, which was 1,471 years ago.

    Comment by The historian Dana (af9ec3) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:20 pm

  976. Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/3/2013 @ 3:12 pm

    Yeah, Sammy, can you expound upon this theory of yours regarding white people as members of the Bloods ?

    Florida Department of Corrections / Los Angeles-based Gangs — Bloods and Crips

    The Los Angeles (LA)-based Bloods and Crips are probably the most widely recognized gangs in America due to the media exposure received in the 1980′s. These groups have migrated throughout the country and are seen in most states and their prison populations. There are literally hundreds of sets or individual gangs under the main Blood and Crip names. They are no longer racially specific.

    Italics in original. This web page describes the Crips as multiracial.

    While on the East Coast, the bloods were originally formed to defend black inmates, especially against the Latin Kings, they now too have some diversity:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloods

    Most Bloods members are African American males, although some sets have recruited female members as well as members from other races and ethnic backgrounds. Members range in age from early teens to mid-twenties, however some hold leadership positions into their late twenties and occasionally thirties.

    Those italics are mine.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:25 pm

  977. The Day the Hard News Died: CNN Only Cares About Egypt in Little Boxes

    2:19 PM ET

    The 24-hour cable news network that’s redefining non-stop news picked the wrong story today. In case you hadn’t seen, history is unfolding in Egypt right now. It is truly earth-shattering news. But the poop-cruise network has spent the entire day broadcasting the bumbling minutiae of the George Zimmerman trial in Florida instead, relegating the chaos in Cairo to a picture-in-picture box in the corner. The only time CNN broke to cover Egypt in any sort of real depth was when the trial broke for lunch.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:27 pm

  978. New Frontier for Gangs: Indian Reservations – by Seth Mydans New York Times March 18, 1995

    “In Utah, you’ve got Crips and Bloods that are all white,” said Shannon Lewis, an official with the Arizona Department of Public Safety. “On the reservations, the Crips and Bloods are all Indians.”

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:31 pm

  979. Not Just the Inner City: Well-to-Do Join Gangs by Seth Mydans New York Times April 10, 1990

    Some affluent white youths are joining established black or Hispanic gangs like the Crips and Bloods; others are forming what are sometimes called copycat or mutant or yuppie gangs.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:32 pm

  980. So you are claiming Martin thought a “creepy ass Cracker” was a Blood.

    Could he have thought the red shirt meant Zimmerman was expendable and could be killed off?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:34 pm

  981. Being followed (particularly) in the dark bothers most people on a survival instinct level.
    It would be more remarkable if people are NOT bothered by it.
    Comment by SteveG (794291

    true dat, but people who are worried about the person following them do not usually double back and confront said person once they have managed to break contact with them. they didi mau their narrow behinds home and go inside where they are relatively safe and call the cops.

    St Thug Life went back looking for a fight. the fact that he was dumb enough to do this in a state with CCW speaks to his state of mind and of intoxication.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:36 pm

  982. As if they had a clue, about the Egyptian Revolution or Zimmerman or Obama,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:36 pm

  983. Al Sharpton’s friendliness toward the Crips maybe:

    Blowing the Whistle on Gangsta Culture By BOB HERBERT Published: December 22, 2005 New York Times columnist

    I noticed that Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, Snoop Dogg and other ”leaders” and celebrities turned out in South Central Los Angeles on Tuesday for the funeral of Stanley ”Tookie” Williams, the convicted killer and co-founder of the Crips street gang who was executed in California last week.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:38 pm

  984. Somebody held a Mafia type fundraiser to help pay Tawana Brawley’s fine rather than have her tell the truth. (She was discovered this year)

    New York Post: Hoaxer Tawana Brawley celebrated in New Jersey fund-raiser

    The camp’s annual fund-raiser is usually held at the Cotton Club in Harlem — but couldn’t be there this year because Glenda Brawley still has a warrant out for her arrest over procedural charges related to the infamous hoax.

    Inside the hall, attendees were given envelopes for the Tawana Brawley Defense Fund to help her cover legal costs for the lawsuit she lost to former Dutchess County Prosecutor Steven Pagones, one of the men falsely accused of raping Brawley in 1987.

    Brawley originally owed $190,000 for the defamation suit, but the amount has ballooned to more than $430,000 with interest.

    The Post recently found her living under an assumed name in Virginia, and a court promptly ordered her wages to be garnisheed to start paying back the debt.

    Several people dropped $50 bills in the envelopes. One supporter, the Rev. C. Herbert Oliver, gave a “very substantial donation,” a source said. And an older woman said she gave some of her pension.

    Now who especially needs Tawana Brawley not to tell the truth? Al Sharpton and company.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:41 pm

  985. Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:34 p

    So you are claiming Martin thought a “creepy ass Cracker” was a Blood.

    I think most likely he didn’t say that at all. The only source is Rachel Jeantel. Yes, it is uncomplimentary to Trayvon Martin but after all they wanted people to think that GZ was a crazy ass cracker.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:44 pm

  986. Creepy ass

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:44 pm

  987. Just when I thought this thread had crossed over into surreality …. Then, sammalanche.

    Comment by JD (e70b27) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:55 pm

  988. http://minx.cc:81/?post=216448

    regarding the “Riot for Trayvon” FB page…

    (it may be gone… i searched FB and didn’t find it, only a bad link to it

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:57 pm

  989. “cracker” or “cracka”: either way it’s a racist dog-whistle and i find it offensive.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:59 pm

  990. Well, they’ll stone you when you walk all alone
    They’ll stone you when you are walkin’ home
    They’ll stone you and then say they all are brave
    They’ll stone you when you’re set down in your grave

    But I would not feel so all alone
    Everybody must get stoned

    What is a gun but a high-tech stone thrower?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:35 pm

  991. Walker – they got walker! the bastards!

    Walker was then asked about the estimated 11 million immigrants living in the country illegally. The editorial board asked if he could “envision a world where with the right penalties and waiting periods and meet the requirements where those people could get citizenship?”

    “Sure,” Walker responded. “I mean I think it makes sense.”

    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/07/03/video-scott-walker-supports-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:42 pm

  992. annnd here we go

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/politics/perry-2016/index.html

    Heard a books coming out that Romney wanted to quit a month before the election.

    Or did…..

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  993. Walker was then asked about the estimated 11 million immigrants living in the country illegally. The editorial board asked if he could “envision a world where with the right penalties and waiting periods and meet the requirements where those people could get citizenship?”

    “Sure,” Walker responded. “I mean I think it makes sense.”

    What is so surprising about that to you? Most conservatives that I know support a “pathway to citizenship” but only in that hypothetical “world where with the right penalties and waiting periods and meet the requirements where those people could get citizenship.” What Democrats are doing is trying to make the “right penalties” just some nominal processing fee; the “waiting period” to be right after everyone else in line is processed — unless they need votes immediately in which case they can speed up the wait period like Clinton did in 1996; and meeting “the requirements” being a euphemism for voting Democrat.

    Comment by JVW (23867e) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:53 pm

  994. Aren’t the R’s crowning Christy?

    Comment by tifosa (7f8b9c) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:00 pm

  995. jvw

    I was being sarcastic to the Cruz for everything mind set of some commentators.

    I am still wondering if Reagans 86 amnesty actually naturalized anyone in large numbers – Hispanics living illegally tend to not want to be known and taxed. But who really knows?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:06 pm

  996. tifosa, how is the TV reception in Jupiter’s orbit?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:07 pm

  997. I see several people have already mentioned that the state doesn’t seem intent on actually doing anything to convict George Zimmerman.

    Either that, or these are the most incompetent attorneys since the OJ fiasco…

    Comment by WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:10 pm

  998. Well more of the latter,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:12 pm

  999. Oddly enough, there is already a path to US Citizenship. For the 11 to 20 million illegals currently in the country, the first step along that path is to leave the country and then get in line with everyone else waiting patiently to apply for a visa.

    “That was easy!”

    Comment by WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:16 pm

  1000. A happy ending for you, Surls. The grown man didn’t gun down the unarmed teenagers.

    The scary (and actually also pathetic) thing about people like Dave and Dana (and perhaps EPWJ too) is they’re not loony liberals — not outright contemptible leftists — yet common sense nonetheless fails them on occasion. That’s because they do fall for the siren song of go-gooder, I-love-the-underdog liberal sentiment, which unfortunately makes their sympathies unreliable and generally ass-backwards.

    Keep such people in mind, because if they’re guilty of a corrupt form of compassion at crucial moments, imagine how really idiotic dyed-in-the-wool liberals will be.

    Comment by Mark (8af037) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:16 pm

  1001. The OJ Simpson trial proved how, if process is disregarded and the trial becomes a free-for-all because the judge is a worthless dips**t, anything can happen. Zimmerman is not out of the woods by any means.

    Did I read right the jury is “sequestered” for the Fourth? Or is it just de facto sequestration and not sequestration per se?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:17 pm

  1002. Comment number 1000 by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:17 pm

    Now that’s a thread winner.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:19 pm

  1003. nk

    did the defense actually ask for more time after the prosecution rested? Was this in response to the DNA results being negative?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:22 pm

  1004. 974- Dana, I think that you’ll find that stoning pre-dates Islam in the tribal cultures of the ME, and is just another of the cultural tidbits that Mohammed codified into Islamic law.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:28 pm

  1005. Hey EPWJ. Can’t you let him bask for a second?

    Look over there > Squirrel.

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:30 pm

  1006. There was a phantom attacker that actually broke GZ’s nose and cut open his head while assaulting him MMA style ground and pound. The defense will have to prove that the injuries sustained were not inflicted by someone else. It is over.

    Comment by JD (e70b27) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:31 pm

  1007. I don’t think the prosecution rested yet. The last I heard there was an objection over the prosecution introducing evidence of Zimmerman’s grilfriend’s diaphragm’s size that the judge needed a two-day drunk to bring herself to rule for the prosecution on.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:35 pm

  1008. Seriously, I think the prosecution is still going with evidence about Zimmerman’s background which f***in!!!! should not be let in. It might rest Friday.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  1009. Sammy, the bizarre drift of your comments is starting to concern me. Are you under the care of a medical professional?

    Sorry for chuckling at such comments, but I don’t know what’s worse: That Sammy — with a straight face — is actually entertaining the idea that Martin mistook Zimmerman for being a gangsta because it plays into Sammy’s “Murder She Wrote” or Sherlock-Holmes type of enjoyment and pleasure. Or that Sammy is trying to rationalize away the utter ruthlessness of Trayvon by implying the punk didn’t realize George was an upright, security-conscious member of the neighborhood.

    Comment by Mark (8af037) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  1010. Mark, I wouldn’t lump our Dana with Dave Surreal. Dave Surreal was uninterested in any of the actual evidence about the case, he just wanted to repeat his own hatred of Zimmerman over and over. He’d make a claim and when evidence was revealed that refuted it, still continue on making that same claim.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:38 pm

  1011. It was a Six foot rabbit named Harvey. JD.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:40 pm

  1012. Shorter tifosa: fire can’t melt stuck on stupid.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:29 am

    FIFY

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:41 pm

  1013. Mark, I wouldn’t lump our Dana with Dave Surreal.

    SPQR, I consider them interesting case studies — or test subjects — because I believe they’re both politically more to the right than the left. So when logic or common sense eludes such people, that is both fascinating and repugnant to witness. It’s a big reason why I have less confidence in human nature nowadays than in the past.

    Comment by Mark (8af037) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:45 pm

  1014. Just when I thought this thread had crossed over into surreality …. Then, sammalanche.

    Comment by JD (e70b27) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:55 pm

    Spammin’ Sammy strikes again!

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:46 pm

  1015. 974. That the enforcement mechanisms are different does not mean that those faiths do not try to set everything about people’s lives.

    But, to answer your question, while Christian authorities didn’t seem to use stoning as a punishment, we did have some rather gruesome penalties, and they weren’t all that long ago.

    Comment by The historian Dana (af9ec3) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:20 pm

    Dana, if you’re Catholic you really need to brush up on what Catholicism teaches about free will. Catholicism may tell you what you should do but have never attempted (or if they did had no theological justification) to compel you to do so. Yes, there were gruesome punishments meted out by civil authorities who happened to profess Christianity in one form or another. But those gruesome punishments which continued until the 19th century existed to enforce secular authority. After all, serfdom existed until the 19th century as well.

    But when clergy participated in those gruesome punishments there is a great deal of evidence to show they attempted to ameliorate the worst effects. Often less severe forms of punishment were unavailable to the peasantry. One had to be of a certain social status to be acquitted by swearing an oath (and finding sufficient witnesses who would attest to the truth of the oath). So the peasantry had to be tried by ordeal such as trial by fire. The verdict would be rendered by the divine. This was not a Christian invention by the way; these were pagan punishments in societies that had been given a Christian veneer. So priests would be asked to examine the wounds to see if they had become infected (i.e. a guilty verdict). They would often claim the wounds were healing when they weren’t.

    In 1215 the Pope forbade the clergy from participating in these at all.

    The worst punishments Church authorities could mete out were penances and the ultimate; excommunication.

    There were abuses of Church authority. But these abuses had no theological justification. Generally they arose because the Church vied to be a secular power as well, but you won’t find anything to justify that in he New Testament. In fact many theologians at the time considered the Crusades to be wholly without theological basis. But that would go off on an entirely different tangent.

    The bottom line is that the Christian concept of free will means we never have had anything remotely like Islamic religious police that exist throughout the Muslim world. Most notoriously the Saudi Mutaween.

    The Islamic concept of free will exists but is entirely unlike the Christian concept. Unlike the Christian concept in Islam you most definitely are not supposed to seek God of your own free will. You will be compelled to (those Mutaween, again).

    Christianity never had anything remotely like the Hadiths. Not even the Jewish Talmud is comparable to the Hadiths. The Hadiths are the example set by the perfect Muslim, Muhammad, and his earliest followers. Which Muslims can and will be compelled to emulate.

    In fact, I find it amusing you and Milhouse brought up the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus as if that’s an example of how Christianity has a code on the books that’s supposed to control every aspect of each individual’s life. Don’t you realize that Christians don’t follow the Mosaic laws the Jews follow? Don’t you understand why that is?

    If you figure that out then you’ll understand that it’s for theological reasons that do not exist in Islam. And according to the overwhelming weight of Islamic jurisprudence can never be permitted.

    Bonus question; how many Muslims have won the Nobel Prize for Science? There’s a theological reason behind the answer, which is related to the foregoing.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:07 pm

  1016. For those more familiar with trials than I am:

    The talking heads on HLN were speculating whether Trayvon’s mother would testify. Why would the state even consider this? The only thing she can attest to is who Trayvon was as a person and her talk with Jeantel. Both seem problematic:

    1. Discussing Jeantel could potentially show inconsistencies in Jeantel’s testimony (though this is probably unlikely)

    2. In discussing Trayvon, does the the defense have the possibility of questioning Trayvon’s school records, text messages, etc.?

    Not sure there would be too much sympathy if it was proven that Trayvon had a penchant for aggression. Also, if Fulton cannot control her emotions as Jeantel was unable to control hers, it may further hurt the state’s case.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:12 pm

  1017. Yes, there were gruesome punishments meted out by civil authorities who happened to profess Christianity in one form or another. But those gruesome punishments which continued until the 19th century existed to enforce secular authority.

    Often those subjected to such things as burning at the stake, etc., are thought of as Christian martyrs, unjustly killed because they were not willing to be manipulated by the government.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:14 pm

  1018. 1003.974- Dana, I think that you’ll find that stoning pre-dates Islam in the tribal cultures of the ME, and is just another of the cultural tidbits that Mohammed codified into Islamic law.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:28 pm

    Yes, and the gruesome punishments Dana talks about in Christian lands pre-date Christianity. In fact you’ll find many of the punishments going back to the code of Hammurabi. Although as I recall the punishment for adultery didn’t involve stoning. An accused woman (it was always a woman) had to enter a body of water and stay submerged while someone shot an arrow at her.

    As Europe became Christian the Germanic tribes tended to abandon trial by duel as a nod to the Church. But trial by ordeal remained.

    By the same token the situation for witches and sorcerers actually improved under Christianity. Pagans were notoriously superstitious, and witchcraft and sorcery had long been outlawed. While the Church condemned demonic magic, they also condemned the punishment meted out to individuals who practiced the dark arts.

    The Christians simply didn’t believe in it so they thought witches and sorcerers were harmless frauds. They didn’t take it seriously like the pagans who saw witches and sorcerers as powerful threats.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:25 pm

  1019. The talking heads on HLN were speculating whether Trayvon’s mother would testify. Why would the state even consider this?

    Life and death witness. She should have been the first witness to testify. With an album of photographs from his birth to his death. Careful not to say more than “He was my baby” around anything about his character, but even if she did she would not be opening the door to much dirtying by the defense on cross. In Florida, character evidence of the victim is by reputation only and in “initial aggressor” self-defense only if that reputation is known to the defendant. As a tactical matter, the defense would be walking on coals cross-examining her at all. “She is the kid’s mom, members of the jury” does not need to be said. I don’t know why when “V is important, not W or B”, the prosecution would not want to humanize Martin as much as possible.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:30 pm

  1020. It was a Six foot rabbit named Harvey. JD.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:40 pm

    I don’t care for rabbits. Especially tall ones. Or midget ones. Or clowns in general.

    Comment by JD (e70b27) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:31 pm

  1021. The talking heads on HLN were speculating whether Trayvon’s mother would testify. Why would the state even consider this? The only thing she can attest to is who Trayvon was as a person and her talk with Jeantel. Both seem problematic:

    Yeah, I’ve seen and heard the same thing. Airheads with TV gigs speculating that allowing Trayvon’s mom to testify would allow the prosecution to rest on a “powerful note.”

    That’s insane; what could she have possibly witnessed? Putting her on is like the prosecution setting off flares to advertise the fact they don’t have a case so now they have to resort to blatant emotional extortion.

    It’s appropriate, I guess, to have the parents and other relatives to give a victim impact statement at sentencing. But to give a victim impact statement during a trial?

    I’m not an attorney but I think that would be reason enough to get the conviction dismissed upon appeal.

    Why not just have the judge and the prosecutors just stand up and say they never intended to give Zimmerman a fair trial?

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:35 pm

  1022. I certainly can’t see TM’s mother having any admissable testimony.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:43 pm

  1023. nk, does the concept of “life and death witness” exist outside the state of Illinois?

    I had never heard of the term os I did a search, first without quotation marks, and got nothing unrelated to religion. With quotation marks my search only produced Illinois cases.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:44 pm

  1024. Ratbeach — The prosecution seems to be driving for an emotionally driven verdict. What better than a sobbing mother, grieving for her son? There was lots of speculation that she would be the last two hours today, let the jury have four days to think about that, then cross on Monday.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:45 pm

  1025. Could be the phrase is Illinois or even Chicago jargon. But that a “person” was alive and is now dead is universally one of the elements of a homicide that must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, to the trier of fact at the defendant’s trial for the crime, and the prosecution is entitled to present its proof.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:48 pm

  1026. what about rabbits with clown noses…

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:49 pm

  1027. That is kind of how I picture you, EPWJ

    Comment by JD (e70b27) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:01 pm

  1028. This is your brain:

    The witness describes a darker-skinned person on top of a lighter skinned person, straddling him and making movements with his arms going downward.

    He also said it looked like the darker-skinned guy was raining blows down on the lighter-skinned person MMA-style, and believes that the lighter-skinned person on the bottom was calling for help. But he was not 100% certain about this.

    This is your brain on drugs:

    I am not saying that George Zimmerman was a Blood (although his earlier mug shot also shows him wearing a red shirt) I am sayinbg that trayvon Martin might have thought him to be a Blood and this might be the best explanation as to why he attacked him so ferociously.

    This actually bolsters the defense because the biggest problem for the defense (or for being believed by all people) is the question of why Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:12 pm

    DON’T DO DRUGS!

    Comment by peedoffamerican (35b482) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:13 pm

  1029. So you are claiming Martin thought a “creepy ass Cracker” was a Blood.

    Could he have thought the red shirt meant Zimmerman was expendable and could be killed off?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 7/3/2013 @ 4:34 pm

    Actually he thought the red shirt meant Santy Clause, and can he help that he got so excited that he knocked the old f@cker down and bloodied his nose trying to get to the toys?

    Comment by Sammy Sphincterman (a84075) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:43 pm

  1030. The talking heads on HLN were speculating whether Trayvon’s mother would testify. Why would the state even consider this? The only thing she can attest to is who Trayvon was as a person and her talk with Jeantel. Both seem problematic:

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:12 pm

    I believe that if they use her as a witness, the only thing she will be able to testify to is his character. The defense will object that she can only testify to his character and not to anything that is pertinent to what occurred that night. If the judge over rules the objection, it will open wide the door for all of Trayvon’s propensity for fighting to come in, youtube videos etc. If the prosecution objects and she sustains the objection, look for the defense to immediately seek an appeal during the trial. Once the state introduces character evidence of Trayvon, the defense is allowed to enter contradicting character evidence or it is reversible error.

    Comment by peedoffamerican (a84075) — 7/3/2013 @ 8:43 pm

  1031. One could argue that the books in the bible and the parts of the torah that contain explicit legalism are included as cautionary tales.
    israel is told again and again to be careful what she is asking for when she wants kings and rules.
    The law is seen like big government… too much, too many, too impossible…

    Um, no. Israel is never warned against the Law. Samuel warned the people against kings, but he was himself a judge who ruled by the Law.

    Even the warning against kings is provisional. Deuteronomy commands “you shall appoint a king for yourselves”. And the Bible is full of affirmation that line of David shall be kings forever; Jews are still waiting for that to be restored. Samuel’s warning, then, was for its time; he saw that the people wanted a king for the wrong reasons, that they weren’t ready to submit themselves to a king, and thus whomever they chose would disappoint them.

    But the Law is never tentative or warned against. It is, after all, the essence of what the Bible is about. It’s God’s instructions, the manufacturer’s manual for the world.

    also god is seen as being capable of deciding who goes to heaven, hell and god is also capable of handling insults aimed towards him/herself without the need of human intervention He surely is, but He explicitly ordered human courts to handle it.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:29 pm

  1032. No, it’s a fair question because during the final centuries of Jewish independence the Mishnah (the law that was transmitted in the oral tradition rather than in writing or Mikra) that a rabbinical court was “murderous” if it sentenced more than one man to death in a seven year period. In practice the rabbinical courts found some sort of point of law to avoid sentencing anyone to death.

    By the time the mishnah was compiled, Jewish courts had not had the power to execute criminals for well over a century. But the piece you’re quoting is emphatically not an injunction to avoid executing guilty people. The law is clear that if someone is guilty, and is properly convicted, they must be executed.

    When Shimon ben Shetach broke up a coven of eighty witches, he had no qualms about hanging them all. When Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel said that a court which has to execute someone once in seven years is a destructive court, he meant that they had let things go to such an extent that people were committing capital crimes with such frequency. If they had been doing their jobs enforcing the law on lesser matters, nobody would dare commit such serious crimes. Once in seven years a freak incident might occur; some incorrigible person commits a serious crime. But if capital crimes are happening more often than that, it’s the courts’ fault. Basically this is the “Broken Windows” theory that Giuliani championed.

    In fact when R Akiva and R Tarfon said that if they had been on the courts, back in the old days, they would have found ways to avoid convicting anyone of a capital crime, they were told that such a policy would only cause murder to increase.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:43 pm

  1033. 5 of the 6 women on the jury are mothers. The prosecution is putting TraMar’s mother on the stand in the expectation the other mothers will identify with her grief and seek to punish (the reckless White Hispanic whose overzealous hatred of thieves and punks spiraled out of control that rainy night in Sanford to the point he wrongly killed her baby) George Zimmerman.

    Comment by ropelight (a82805) — 7/4/2013 @ 6:12 am

  1034. That may be so, ropelight, but the victim has to be shown to be more than autopsy photos, a forensic report, and a trash-talking voice over the phone with a moron. The prosecution will be doing its job. Let’s see how well they do.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/4/2013 @ 6:43 am

  1035. nk, if you mean it’s the prosecution’s job to demonstrate to the jury that TraMar was an individual flesh and blood human being rather than simply an semi-anonymous file folder full of forensic reports, photos, and audio recordings, and that putting his mother on the stand will help to accomplish the task of humanizing him for the mothers on the jury, then I agree.

    But, TraMar wasn’t the one-dimensional silhouette he’s been made out to be. He was well past being the smiling young boy pictured so often on TV, or the light skinned photo shopped image of a young man looking out serrnely from under a halo-hoodie.

    If it’s the prosecution’s job to use TraMar’s mother’s grief to portray him as a young blameless victim of a senseless crime, then the defense is obligated to demonstrate just how false, contrived, and self-serving such a fraudulent misrepresentation of the violently aggressive street thug his momma is pushing now in order to collect big money damages from a civil suit later.

    Comment by ropelight (a82805) — 7/4/2013 @ 8:49 am

  1036. Did I read right the jury is “sequestered” for the Fourth? Or is it just de facto sequestration and not sequestration per se?

    You read right. They’re sequestered. I read that they’ll be taken to Disney World to watch the fireworks, but they have to stay together and away from their families.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/4/2013 @ 9:47 am

  1037. In fact, I find it amusing you and Milhouse brought up the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus as if that’s an example of how Christianity has a code on the books that’s supposed to control every aspect of each individual’s life.

    Dana may have done so with reference to Christianity; I did so because you contrasted this aspect of Islam not only with Christianity but also with Judaism, a contrast that is without merit. Jewish law is an all-encompassing system much like Islamic law.

    Don’t you realize that Christians don’t follow the Mosaic laws the Jews follow? Don’t you understand why that is?

    Yes, it’s because they’re damned pagans and infidels… :-)

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/4/2013 @ 10:54 am

  1038. Bonus question; how many Muslims have won the Nobel Prize for Science?

    How many believing and practicing Jews have done so? I think the answer is greater than zero, but not by very much.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/4/2013 @ 10:55 am

  1039. 1016: Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/3/2013 @ 7:12 pm

    The talking heads on HLN were speculating whether Trayvon’s mother would testify. Why would the state even consider this? The only thing she can attest to is who Trayvon was as a person and her talk with Jeantel.

    What!? You don’t realize what they would have her testify to?

    She would testify that the voice calling out for help in the 911 tape that includes a bit of the fight is her son.

    The prosecution practically has to call her. The expert witnesses they had who were going to say the voice on the 911 tape is Trayvon’s were disallowed. She, however, because she knew Trayvon and is not an expert, is competent to claim that.

    Without her, they have no one to say that the person losing the fight was Trayvon. The prosecution’s claim is that GZ won the fight, and then killed Trayvon in cold blood.

    Never mind that the exact scenario they have in mind is contradicted by the evidence. Why are all the wounds on George Zimmerman? Why does the fight stop right after the bullet is fired – and not before? (From all accounts the fight was going on till the shot was fired)

    And more: Why was George Zimmerman’s gun in contact with Trayvon Martin’s clothes? He’d have had to have knocked Trayvon Martin unconscious, (which is not the claim) or thoroughly intimidated him (which is also not the claim) to be able to, from a dominant position, slowly push the gun against Trayvon’s clothes without resistance.

    So they’ll claim GZ had Trayvon immobilized. Trayvon cannot br intimidated into staying still because Trayvon is supposedly not begging GZ for his life , which would be consistent with being intimidated into staying still by the gun, but calling out to possible strangers for help!

    But in reality they don’t try to make the pieces fit together in any way that makes sense but hope jurors overlook the fact that their postulating several different kinds of scenarios.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (ad84eb) — 7/4/2013 @ 11:52 am

  1040. The Python dreams fitfully and the laurel smoke wreaths the altar.

    I predict that either a bailiff or a juror will accuse one or more jurors of misconduct today. The state will move for a mistrial, the defense will object raising the specter of double jeopardy, the judge will replace one one or more jurors and/or give the jury a scolding admonishment.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/5/2013 @ 5:46 am

  1041. Finkelman, I forgot all about the phone call. One expert claimed it was inconclusive and questioned the other expert’s findings, so I figured trotting out the mother at this point would be for sympathy and nothing else. One never knows what a jury will do, but surely no one believes the mother is a credible, objective source. This is her child. Of course she will testify that the voice is Trayvon. But her testifying opens the possibility of the defense questioning Trayvon’s past, i.e. if Trayvon was just a regular teen experimenting with pot, why were all of these other things happening: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html?

    They’ve called the mom and brother to the stand. So far, the mother has been called back and is approaching right now. The brother said something interesting after he heard the call “I would like to think it is my brother’s voice, but I’m not completely positive.” The mom also admitted that any mother would have wanted it to be the son screaming for help lest it mean that her son was the aggressor (as Finkelman points out, that is what the evidence shows).

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/5/2013 @ 7:25 am

  1042. Mark wrote:

    The scary (and actually also pathetic) thing about people like Dave and Dana (and perhaps EPWJ too) is they’re not loony liberals — not outright contemptible leftists — yet common sense nonetheless fails them on occasion. That’s because they do fall for the siren song of go-gooder, I-love-the-underdog liberal sentiment, which unfortunately makes their sympathies unreliable and generally ass-backwards.

    So, because I don’t always toe the Official Conservative Line on every subject, I must, inter alia, be “fall(ing) for the siren song of go-gooder, I-love-the-underdog liberal sentiment?” Ego-centric projectionism can go little further! :lol:

    It is a fact that Mr Zimmerman was following Mr Martin, when he did not need to do so, and when the police dispatcher told him he didn’t need to do so. I have said that that action created the whole situation, and that is all that I have said. Because that disagrees with your interpretation, perhaps because you think that, Mr Martin being an obvious thug, Mr Zimmerman must somehow be as pure as the wind-driven snow.

    Whom, I wonder, is “fall(ing) for the siren song of go-gooder, I-love-the-underdog liberal sentiment?” As nearly as I can see, the underdog in this unfortunate case is George Zimmerman! He is the one who was not going to be charged by the local authorities, but is on trial because Al Sharpton and the other race-hustlers got the state to intervene, he is the one with the whole weight of the state of Florida upon him.

    I’ve said it several times: I hope that he is acquitted. But, to you, it’s Not Enough to hope he is acquitted, one must also believe that he is a living, breathing saint as well.

    Comment by The amused Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:09 am

  1043. No, Dana, it’s about the fact of the case, the 400?? calls to the department that one year, only 8 from Zimmerman, the breakin in the complex only three weeks earlier, the reason why the neighborhood watch was given approval in the first place, this is why Jeralyn Merritt, who is no conservative, among others have found the case wanting,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:12 am

  1044. Mr 57 wrote:

    The Christians simply didn’t believe in it so they thought witches and sorcerers were harmless frauds. They didn’t take it seriously like the pagans who saw witches and sorcerers as powerful threats.

    I disagree!

    Comment by Cotton Mather (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:13 am

  1045. narciso, does the fact that a neighborhood watch was authorized and formed mean that no neighborhood watchman can do anything either wrong or foolish?

    Comment by The inquisitive Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:15 am

  1046. Our Windy City barrister wrote:

    I predict that either a bailiff or a juror will accuse one or more jurors of misconduct today. The state will move for a mistrial, the defense will object raising the specter of double jeopardy, the judge will replace one one or more jurors and/or give the jury a scolding admonishment.

    How many alternate jurors are there?

    Comment by The inquisitive Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:17 am

  1047. I really can’t see much purpose in putting Mr Martin’s mother on the stand. She wasn’t a witness to the events, and anything to which she does testify comes from an extremely biased viewpoint. She has a mother’s interest in saying that the voice on the tape is her son’s even if she doesn’t believe so or cannot tell, and the jurors have to know that.

    Comment by The Dana who isn't an attorney (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:22 am

  1048. Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/5/2013 @ 7:25 am

    Of course she will testify that the voice is Trayvon. But her testifying opens the possibility of the defense questioning Trayvon’s past,

    Probably not unless she testifies as to his character, which will probably carefully be avoided by the prosecution if they can.

    It might come out on cross examination and that would open the field to rebuttal.

    They’ve called the mom and brother to the stand. So far, the mother has been called back and is approaching right now. The brother said something interesting after he heard the call “I would like to think it is my brother’s voice, but I’m not completely positive.”

    He knows it is not so. They can’t call the father, because early on, he told police that that voice was not his son’s.

    The mom also admitted that any mother would have wanted it to be the son screaming for help lest it mean that her son was the aggressor (as Finkelman points out, that is what the evidence shows).

    And the voice crying for help right before the shot was fired has to be the person losing the fight.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:24 am

  1049. Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/3/2013 @ 11:43 pm

    When Shimon ben Shetach broke up a coven of eighty witches,

    H didn’t break up a coven of 80 witches! This happened because the Sadduccees were making an accusation that the government of Queen Salome was too lenient, so he wnet to Ashkelon where maybe a cult existed, and in one day executed (and hanged the bodies) of 80 women. It was not according to law. As the Mishnah and Gemorah says

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:29 am

  1050. If Mr Martin’s mother testifies to what an absolute angel her favorite son was, wouldn’t that open the door for the defense to bring in information concerning Mr Martin’s record?

    Comment by The Dana who isn't an attorney (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:37 am

  1051. 1045. Comment by The Dana who isn’t an attorney (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:22 am

    I really can’t see much purpose in putting Mr Martin’s mother on the stand. She wasn’t a witness to the events, and anything to which she does testify comes from an extremely biased viewpoint. She has a mother’s interest in saying that the voice on the tape is her son’s even if she doesn’t believe so or cannot tell, and the jurors have to know that.

    It might at least be crucial in avoiding a dismissal, because there would at least some evidence that George Zimmerman was winning the fight and had no cause to shoot Trayvon Martin.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:37 am

  1052. Just to amend my above comment: it sounded like the prosecutor quoted Trayvon’s brother and said the brother would have liked for the voice to be Trayvon’s. However, after listening again to the brother’s own words, the brother later stated that he did not want the voice to be Trayvon’s. Perhaps the prosecutor misspoke or I didn’t hear the negation.

    Sammy Finkelman, you’re right – it doesn’t look like Trayvon’s past will be brought up at all (though I have it paused on the ME right now). Still, the mother’s testimony doesn’t strike me as that moving. She wasn’t there and her first instinct will be to protect her son. The evidence still points to her son being the aggressor – by all witness accounts, Zimmerman lost Trayvon and then Trayvon came back to confront Zimmerman.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:38 am

  1053. Of course the general claim the prosecution has been pushing is that GZ was winning the fight throughout. I’m not sure if they even have a scenario to explain everything.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:38 am

  1054. 1049. Comment by The Dana who isn’t an attorney (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:37 am

    If Mr Martin’s mother testifies to what an absolute angel her favorite son was, wouldn’t that open the door for the defense to bring in information concerning Mr Martin’s record?

    I think so. Which is why it probably won’t
    happen.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:40 am

  1055. Dana — if TM had turned and gone home, walking or running, he’d be alive. Instead, he ran off, came back, and confronted GZ.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:41 am

  1056. So someone took the wet clothing out of the paper bags and put it into plastic bags? Who?

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:50 am

  1057. Shouldn’t the notes have been given to both the prosecution and the defense long before this?

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:55 am

  1058. Comment by The amused Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:09 am

    It is a fact that Mr Zimmerman was following Mr Martin, when he did not need to do so, and when the police dispatcher told him he didn’t need to do so. I have said that that action created the whole situation, and that is all that I have said.

    That’s not what created the situation. What created the situation was that George Zimmerman decided at the end of the call that he did not want to meet the police at the mailboxes, which would entail walking back some 100 to 150 feet to his car and then driving his car back several hundred feet maybe, away from the direction in which Trayvon Martin had gone.

    Instead, he told the dispatcher that he would call them back and tell them where he is and they should meet there.

    For one thing, although that should not have stopped him from going back to his car, George Zimmerman maybe was afraid or concerned that Trayvon Martin was lurking nearby (say because maybe he had suddenly disapeared rather than running out of sight)

    We know GZ was thinking TM might be lurking nearby because he didn’t want to give his address over the telephone and mentioned the fact that he didn’t know where this kid was as the reason.

    That means maybe he’s close enough to hear. It also means that he must have taken him for a gang member because otherwise why are you afraid he’ll find out your address? (It seems however, that maybe TM also took GZ for a gang member!

    Because that’s the best explanation for what happened.)

    George Zimmerman later said he went to look for a street sign (possibly he had to go further than he thought)

    It is possible maybe he also wanted to check to make sure the teenager was not there, or not breaking into any place.

    If GZ had spotted TM, no doubt he would have wanted the kid not to know he had been spotted and he would have waited for police.

    He did not spot Trayvon Martin. But Trayvon Martin spotted George Zimmerman – and attacked him by surprise when George Zimmerman, on the way back toward his car, passed the walkway down which he was hiding for a second time.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:56 am

  1059. 1054. Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:41 am

    Dana — if TM had turned and gone home, walking or running, he’d be alive. Instead, he ran off, came back, and confronted

    Trayvon Martin was too close to home. If George Zimmerman and his gang later went looking for Trayvon Martin, they’d be quite likely to find him, so Trayvon Martin decided the gang leader nbeeded to be beaten up and intimidated.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:58 am

  1060. So far, every one of the prosecution’s witnesses has either confirmed significant aspects of George Zimmerman’s account of events that night, or failed to confirm the prosecution’s narrative, or demonstrated such a pronounced lack of forthrightness as to call the veracity of their own testimony into question. It got so bad that even Lead Detective Sorino, testified that Zimmerman cooperated fully and willingly with the Sanford PD during the several weeks of official investigation, then all but vouched for Zimmerman’s truthfulness from the stand.

    It often seemed as if the prosecution was calling witnesses for the defense. In fact GZ’s attorneys questioned them as though they were defense witnesses, largely because their testimony almost universally supported GZ’s version of events.

    In the court room, GZ’s most significant opponent continues to be Judge Nelson. The most benign interpretation of her behavior is that it is incompatible with the minimum standards of impartiality. Her incomprehensible ruling preventing the defense from calling or even deposing Benjamin Crump, which was overturned, and her refusal to allow the defense time to depose him now only adds suspicion to the assumption she knows what might be revealed and is attempting to prevent it from coming to light in a deposition by running out the clock. Her actions are a clear effort to continue to conceal Crump’s many deceptive statements from being revealed and to prevent him from suffering the consequences of a perjury investigation.

    Crump has been working hand in glove with the prosecution from the very beginning, and he’s been present at every significant turn of events, he was in the Sanford governor’s office when Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin first heard the scream on the 911 tape, and he was present at the initial interview of Rachael Jeantel. His testimony is unquestionably relevant and appropriate, yet Judge Nelson continues to obstruct defense efforts to obtain Crump’s testimony under oath.

    What is Judge Nelson hiding?

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:04 am

  1061. Sammy, your ability to spin elaborate fantasies from no evidence is unparalleled.

    Sadly, this is not a “good” thing.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:06 am

  1062. htom wrote:

    Dana — if TM had turned and gone home, walking or running, he’d be alive. Instead, he ran off, came back, and confronted GZ.

    That’s probably true enough, but that still does not mean that Mr Zimmerman didn’t create the situation by tailing Mr Martin in the first place.

    Comment by The coldly realistic Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:13 am

  1063. Dana, you keep harping on this point when no one disputes your bare point.

    What people keep disputing with you is whether your point has any relevance to the question of Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence, which you appear to concede it does not.

    But you still feel the need to keep repeating it.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:15 am

  1064. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    George Zimmerman later said he went to look for a street sign (possibly he had to go further than he thought)

    This is one of the things I find odd: a neighborhood watchman who didn’t know the neighborhood, and had to look for a street sign?

    Comment by The practical Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:17 am

  1065. 1009. Comment by Mark (8af037) — 7/3/2013 @ 6:37 pm

    Sorry for chuckling at such comments, but I don’t know what’s worse: That Sammy — with a straight face — is actually entertaining the idea that Martin mistook Zimmerman for being a gangsta

    Not a gangsta, but a high ranking member, possibly the chief Blood in the area.

    The reasons for Trayvon Martin profiling and sizing George Zimmerman up as a gang leader are:

    1) He was following him around and staring at him, like he thought Trayvon Martin might be somebody in his territory who didn’t belong.

    2) He was wearing a red shirt.

    3) He was older than an ordinary gang member would be.

    4) He was alone – gang members tend to travel in
    groups – except for the leader.

    5) He had a cell phone and was speaking on it while looking at Trayvon.

    Clearly he was a gang leader summoning other gang members to go after Trayvon Martin.

    because it plays into Sammy’s “Murder She Wrote” or Sherlock-Holmes type of enjoyment and pleasure.

    There’s a little bit of that, but that’s no god unless you are right.

    I speculated earlier that Trayvon martin was lost, and/or trying to find the address of a marijuana dealer, and that could explain him going up to many houses looking inside and then going to anotehr house.

    But that doesn’t explain why he attacked George Zimmerman, or how he thought that would help him.

    I mean yes, maybe a marijuana dealer (let’s call him Raymond) would not keep regular business hours, and if he was too late maybe Raymond would go away and he’d miss him, not to mention the much of basketball All Star game, but is that enough of a reason for such an attack? I mean how long did TM wait for GZ to go away? Even if he was already late for his appointment with Raymond to buy $10 or $20 worth of marijuana? He could call him up or a contact and get it several hours later.

    And if he wanted to burglarize something, a burglar, by definition, is someone who doesn’t want to confront anyone.

    Or that Sammy is trying to rationalize away the utter ruthlessness of Trayvon

    Not rationalize, explain. Otherwise you make Trayvon Martin out to be zombie, who doesn’t need any explanation for an attack, and not a human being. Trayvon Martin was not a zombie.

    by implying the punk didn’t realize George was an upright, security-conscious member of the neighborhood.

    He probably had never heard of such an idea as a neighborhood watch in his LIFE!

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:18 am

  1066. Dana, I think George said he was looking for a specific address/house number. He told police in the on scene video that he could not get one from where he was because he said he was facing the back of the homes.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:20 am

  1067. Comment by The practical Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:17 am

    George Zimmerman later said he went to look for a street sign (possibly he had to go further than he thought)

    This is one of the things I find odd: a neighborhood watchman who didn’t know the neighborhood, and had to look for a street sign?

    It possibly wasn’t that close to where he lived, and George Zimmerman never did regular patrols.

    It is also possible to be familar with an area but not know the names of the streets, or the house numbers (which were not on the fronts of the houses. TM may have looking for a house number. In house after house and not finding one. The house numbers in Sanford were on twh sides of the houses.)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:22 am

  1068. If Trayvon Martin mistook george Zimmerman for a gang leader, he almost certainly mentioned that in his phone conversation (to whomever he was talking to, which may very well not have been Rachel Jeantel)

    Milhouse said somethinbg earlier about that phone being used by a number of people.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:23 am

  1069. Sammy, do you ever notice that your chains of speculation get ten or twenty links away from any fact at all?

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:25 am

  1070. Sammy can’s see the forest for the trees and Dana can’t stop kickin’ a dead horse. Let’s deal with the issues at hand and leave the idiot nonsense to the usual suspects.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:32 am

  1071. There were Bloods in Sanford, and Trayvon Martin may have heard about that (particularly if he was Crip) but because he was very new to the area he may not have had any idea what kind of people were the Bloods.

    http://chasthuglife.blogspot.com/2012/04/thuggin-sanford-florida-style.html

    Believe it when I tell you – there are a LOT of candidates in, around and associated with Sanford, Florida who need the kind of help only we can provide. We even stumbled upon our very first female gang member. Maybe we should start with her.

    Every one of those featured here represents the Blood gang. I guess they have taken over in Sanford. Even if they can’t spell ‘flags’ properly.

    Also http://chasthuglife.blogspot.com/2012/04/sanford-florida.html

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:32 am

  1072. One irony: Both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin may have taken the other for a Blood.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:33 am

  1073. 1068. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:25 am

    Sammy, do you ever notice that your chains of speculation get ten or twenty links away from any fact at all?

    Only about 3 or 4 steps, and usually, there’s more than one chain of speculation leading to the same conclusion. Thts’s when it’s good.

    Of courtse I’m looking for more to back it up.

    So far today: Bloods known to exist in Sanford, Florida: Check.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:35 am

  1074. I’m wondering though, what, if anything, Trayvon Martin might have been wearing that would have identified him as a Crip?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:36 am

  1075. It’s when further information doesn’t cause a theory to fall apart that you gain confidence that you’re on the right track.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:39 am

  1076. What color was Trayvon Martin’s hoodie?

    The only pictures I think I’ve seen are black and white.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:41 am

  1077. I have been watching the George Zimmerman trial regularly. I need to say that the fact Zimmerman would stoop to the depth of saying that it was him who was screaming for help on the tape just shows what a sub-human, self-serving, heartless SOB Zimmerman actually is. I have dealt with a lot of teenagers, and the screams are absolutely, DEFINITELY those of a boy, NOT a man.

    Comment by Peter Simmons (3f18bb) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:41 am

  1078. What color is this hoodie?

    http://madamenoire.com/149264/its-not-about-a-hoodie/trayvon-martin-in-hoodie/

    Why is this picture black and white?

    Who, in the year 2012, took or trannsmitted pictures in black and white?

    Where did this picture come from?

    Was the hoodie blue?

    Who decolorized the picture, and why?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:47 am

  1079. I don’t beleive you can tell readily from a voice in all cases if a person is 18 or 80.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:48 am

  1080. Peter Simmons, your comment actually shows that you were not watching the whole trial.

    And its claiming that he was screaming that makes Zimmerman sub-human? Riiiiight.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:49 am

  1081. Mr Finkelman asked:

    What color was Trayvon Martin’s hoodie?

    The only pictures I think I’ve seen are black and white.

    At night, most colors are lost unless someone is very close to a light source; to Mr Zimmerman, Mr Martin’s hoodie would have appeared grey or black unless he was directly under a light.

    Comment by The color-blind Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:52 am

  1082. Surveillance photos are sometimes in black and white, buit that;s not a surveillance photo.

    Was that hoodie blue, was Trayvon Martin wearing it that night, and if someone made a black and white version of that picture, who did it, and why?

    I can understand why if someone was trying to hide the true motive for Trayvvon Martin attacking George Zimmerman, by taking away the clue that might help someone realize it.

    The prosecutors also released pictures in black and white, on July 12, 2012, but those pictures are not of a living Trayvon Martin. By July 12, of course, the prosecution was strongly under the influence of the Martin family lawyers.

    I think I recall the color of Trayvon Martin’s shirt (white) was mentioned in witness reports, but not that of his hoodie.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:59 am

  1083. How’s the trial going? I just checked, and Think Progress, a very liberal website, has it’s last story with “Zimmerman” searchable back on June 28th, after two detailed posts about the trial up to that point.

    Comment by The Dana who checked for you (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:59 am

  1084. TraMar’s father didn’t think it was his son screaming till Benjamin Crump talked to him, and TraMar’s step-brother wasn’t anywhere near as sure as Peter Simmons it was TraMar either.

    It’s a bit difficult to identify the individual screaming unless you’re an eyewitness, which is exactly how one of the prosecution’s witnesses testified.

    But, let’s also acknowledge that when a guy’s been punched in the snout his screams might include a pronounced nasal element.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:00 am

  1085. Dana — http://www.talkleft.com/tag/George%20Zimmerman

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:07 am

  1086. The MEs behavior has been interesting…

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:12 am

  1087. “What color was Trayvon Martin’s hoodie?

    The only pictures I think I’ve seen are black and white.”

    Comment by The color-blind Dana (3e4784)

    At night, most colors are lost unless someone is very close to a light source; to Mr Zimmerman, Mr Martin’s hoodie would have appeared grey or black unless he was directly under a light.

    That is correct, but the question is not what color George Zimmerman would have seen, but what color Trayvon Martin would have known his hoodie to be!

    Trayvon Martin might not be that familiar with what another person could see in dim light.

    If it was blue, he could reason (very possibly incorrectly) that the person in the red shirt (which he might realize was red when he got close to the car and was staring at George Zimmerman) had seen the color of his hoodie.

    And, given all the other indications, might be a Blood who had identified him as a Crip, and was going to go after him.

    Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee though no one pursues.

    That even means someone guilty of the “crime” of being a Crip fleeing from a presumed Blood.

    Did the color of Trayvon Martin’s clothing, particularly the hoodie, ever come up in the trial testimony?

    (This link is to a black and white picture of a living Trayvon Martin wearing a hoodie)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:13 am

  1088. What’s going on at the trial right now?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:14 am

  1089. Just back from lunch.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:17 am

  1090. TraMar’s hoodie was black, it was displayed in the courtroom by the prosecution during the DNA testimony to show where the bullet hole was located and where sections were cut out for DNA analysis.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:19 am

  1091. “It is a fact that Mr Zimmerman was following Mr Martin, when he did not need to do so, and when the police dispatcher told him he didn’t need to do so.”

    Dana, it’s not a fact that Z followed Martin post dispatcher saying to Z that he did not need to do that. Z said “ok” and stopped following.
    That he EVER followed is not any sort of criminal act, let alone an attack on Martin, and Z followed at a distance and lost track of M. and could not follow him further if he had wanted to.

    Dana, I see that you have softened your version of the dispatcher said to Z. , which you formerly mischaracterized as an order. Why are you trying to parse the dispatchers statement to go with the following that preceded it?

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:52 am

  1092. Twitter was suggesting that the doctor who performed the autopsy was refusing to hand over his notes, while also stating that he had no memory whatsoever of the autopsy.

    Is this really what went down?

    I am not watching in real time.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:54 am

  1093. in the original Sanford Florida Police Department police report, Officer Timothy Smith, who arrived first, said that the white male was wearing a red jacket and blue jeans, and the black mail, laying face down in the grass was wearing a gray hooded sweat shirt.

    Officer Ricardo Ayala, who arrived when George Zimmerman was already in custody, says the black male laying face down on the ground was wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) — 7/5/2013 @ 10:58 am

  1094. Both policemen wrote that night that the hoodie was gray. (Well, one said he was wearing “gray hooded sweat shirt” and the other said it was a “gray sweater”)

    He did say blue jeans, so we have something blue there.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:03 am

  1095. Sammie’s rantings always assumes “facts not in evidence”!

    Comment by peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:15 am

  1096. Sarahw — He appears to have kept two different sets of notes, one was the autopsy report, one private. My impression is that neither the prosecution nor the defense knew of the second set of notes.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:19 am

  1097. To 1075,

    We’ve heard Zimmerman’s voice pretty often. The screams sound just like him. You can even catch a Latin accent.

    Comment by DN (09d6b1) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:33 am

  1098. He’s not allowed to keep those notes “private”.

    WTF

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:37 am

  1099. I’m on my iPad so the formatting will be weird.

    Sarahw @ 1090,

    Yes, that is what happened. The ME kept looking down during the trial and refused to directly answer questions. Instead, he had written out the answers to questions he thought he would be asked. When objections were raised, he started getting combative.

    He went on this weird tangent about observing memory studies that showed a person would not be able to remember things from years ago. He kept referring to opinion vs fact because he stated he did not want to commit perjury.

    The defense attorney finally asked him what he was reading from and the ME told him it was from notes that were not in evidence. One of the talking heads on HLN stated that court rules dictate that witnesses cannot merely read statements if those statements are not in evidence. When both sides asked for the notes, the ME refused. The judge ordered copies be made for the trial and then destroyed.

    There have been several “changes of opinion” from the ME namely Trayvon could have survived for 1 to 10 minutes instead of 1-3, Trayvon would not have been able to move after the shot, and the THC in Trayvon’s system could have behavioral and emotional effects.

    Comment by ratbeach (91b261) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:40 am

  1100. Judge Nelson is now testifying? informing the defense of the answer to their question of the witness.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:41 am

  1101. I’m behind on the testimony since I paused it, but did the judge really not allow the jury to know that the ME now says the THC may have had some effect?

    Comment by ratbeach (91b261) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:50 am

  1102. Yup.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:54 am

  1103. Judge Nelson has consistently ruled that evidence of TraMar’s on-going drug use isn’t allowed in open court.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:57 am

  1104. http://www.salon.com/2013/07/05/medical_examiner_shiping_bao_challenges_cross_examiner_during_zimmerman_trial/

    The notes that associate medical examiner Shiping Bao wouldn’t let Zimmerman attorney Don West see were notes he prepared for his testimony, but the judge ruled that he had to let lawyers for both sides see them.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) — 7/5/2013 @ 12:01 pm

  1105. State rests.

    Exhausted from all of that resuscitating.

    If there wasn’t someone actually dead, this would have promise as a screwball farce script.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 12:23 pm

  1106. Yes, I know witnesses are rehabilituated. These needed more than that.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 12:35 pm

  1107. The only place you might see a farce like this is on shows like Jerry Springer or Maury Povich, and then only as filler in between segments on two-headed Aliens and the DNA results identifying the real baby-daddy.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 12:50 pm

  1108. Comment by ratbeach (91b261) — 7/5/2013 @ 11:50 am

    but did the judge really not allow the jury to know that the ME now says the THC may have had some effect?

    Reefer Madness?

    But that’s not true.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 1:45 pm

  1109. Comment by JVW (23867e) — 7/3/2013 @ 5:53 pm

    unless they need votes immediately in which case they can speed up the wait period like Clinton did in 1996;

    They didn’t speed up the legally required waiting period for citizenship – they got rid of the backlog, which had made the waiting period longer..

    They did it mainly by eliminating much of the background checking. (Which is pointless 90% of the time – but not always.)

    If there was no answer after a certain period of time they just said this person must be deemed OK.

    As soon as the election was over they went back to the way it was before.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 1:51 pm

  1110. And we’re done until Monday. Except for press conferences and all of the articles.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 2:31 pm

  1111. There can be a lot of commentary (and fill in of information) till Monday.

    I think the theory that Trayvon Martin mistook George Zimmerman for the local leader of the Bloods who had identified him as a Crip is much better than the “Reefer Madness” (!!) driven insane by marijuana theory they seem to have.

    But it shows you the defense – to really clear George Zimmerman – needs this explnation as to why this happened.

    Maybe they’ll find the person who really spoke to Trayvon Martin that night (or recall Rachel Jeantel is she is the one who did) and somehow get it out of that person what Trayvon Martin was really saying to them.

    We need that.

    But for that to happen you not only need a Perry Mason, you also need a Paul Drake. And where is he?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/5/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  1112. Paul Drake’s not available Sammy, he already knows who done it, but since you’re still barkin’ up the wrong tree, you can play Secret Squirrel.

    Keep a sharp eye out for Yellow Pinkie.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 2:56 pm

  1113. ** face palm **

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:05 pm

  1114. refer madness?

    Comment by E.PWJ (bdd0a6) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:26 pm

  1115. Heavy chronic marijuana is associated with the onset of paranoia, and moreso in adolescents.

    I’d be more worried about his fascination with “lean”, the concoction of which was at least a side errand if not the purpose of his jaunt to the 7-11, but the two together suggest a person who is trying to blot out the real world for a reason.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:36 pm

  1116. It is a fact that Mr Zimmerman was following Mr Martin, when he did not need to do so, and when the police dispatcher told him he didn’t need to do so.

    You keep claiming this over and over, but you have not once explained why you think it’s a fact, when there’s no evidence at all for it, and the only witness says it isn’t true.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:43 pm

  1117. But it is not really true that marijuana makes you act crazy..

    http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/40777/Reefer-Madness/overview

    There are somne other drugs that are associated with this kind of thing “angel dust”

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:43 pm

  1118. Not in the “reefer madness” acute, recreational use bath salts way, Sammy. However it is associated with paranoia in persons who use it chronically, moreso in adolescents, and one mechanism is the associated shrinkage of the amygdala over time with constant use, that can be attributed to the action of the drug.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:49 pm

  1119. The CBS Evening News opened today with the George Zimmerman case. It was sort of “balanced” Dueling wtnesses.

    The last witness for the prosecution was Trayvoon Martin’s mother, who said it was her son calling for help. She was kind of rigid or determined in saying that.

    The first witness for the defense was George Zimmerman’s mother who said it was her son on the 911 tape. Are you sure, she was asked. Because it is my son, she answered.

    The reporter noted that all 6 of the jurors are womnen and 5 of them are mothers.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:50 pm

  1120. htom wrote:

    Dana — if TM had turned and gone home, walking or running, he’d be alive. Instead, he ran off, came back, and confronted GZ.

    That’s probably true enough, but that still does not mean that Mr Zimmerman didn’t create the situation by tailing Mr Martin in the first place.

    Once again, even in your fantasy world in which Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher’s suggestion, your definition of what “created the situation” seems completely arbitrary. Why not, as htom suggests, say that the situation was “created” after your preferred moment, by Martin’s not going straight home? Or why not say it was “created” before your preferred moment, by his suspicious behavior earlier? What is so special about the moment the dispatcher told Zim that it wasn’t necessary for him to follow Martin, that makes it the beginning of the “situation”?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:52 pm

  1121. This is one of the things I find odd: a neighborhood watchman who didn’t know the neighborhood, and had to look for a street sign?

    Nobody knew the names of the streets there. People who live there have no idea what the streets are called.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:53 pm

  1122. IMO, ‘the situation’ really began when George asked Martin ‘what are you doing here?’ and Martin didn’t answer ‘I live here and I’m going home’. That’s where things seem to have gone off the rails.

    Maybe Martin could have gotten to know his community organizer/watcher and joined him in watching for whoever it is who kept burglarizing the neighborhood. (tongue in cheek)

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:56 pm

  1123. I have been watching the George Zimmerman trial regularly. I need to say that the fact Zimmerman would stoop to the depth of saying that it was him who was screaming for help on the tape just shows what a sub-human, self-serving, heartless SOB Zimmerman actually is. I have dealt with a lot of teenagers, and the screams are absolutely, DEFINITELY those of a boy, NOT a man.

    What a liar. How many people have you ever heard desperately screaming for their lives? Enough to become an expert on them? Have you even heard one person doing so? No, I didn’t think so.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/5/2013 @ 3:57 pm

  1124. The destruction of the amygdala makes animals tame and docile.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:05 pm

  1125. the screams are absolutely, DEFINITELY those of a boy, NOT a man.

    There was no boy on the scene. Martin was a 17 year old 6’3″ person, physically a man, though obviously not legally or ethically one.

    Anyone who is so certain Martin was the screamer is going to have to explain how that works. Why would Martin be screaming for help as he pounds a man’s head into the pavement?

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:08 pm

  1126. #1121, Dustin, according to Zimmerman he didn’t ask TraMar that question, it was an after-the-fact fabrication from TraMar’s legal team, words put in Rachel Jeantel’s mouth to make it seem like GZ was following along and was responsible for initiating the confrontation with an aggressive inquiry.

    According to GZ it was TraMar who jumped out of the bushes and asked GZ if he had a problem. When GZ answered no, he didn’t have a problem, TraMar’s response was, well, you do now as he sucker punched GZ in the nose.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:21 pm

  1127. Judge Nelson is a hack.

    Someone give me the evidentiary hypothesis for why the issue of whether Martin died instantly or suffered in pain is relevant to any element of any of the offenses charged.

    Comment by shipwreckedcrew (5de044) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:27 pm

  1128. Dustin, according to Zimmerman he didn’t ask TraMar that question

    Shoot. Ropelight, I stand corrected.

    When GZ answered no, he didn’t have a problem, TraMar’s response was, well, you do now

    Well, then obviously that would be the moment ‘the situation’ turned into a situation.

    I have been thinking that perhaps Martin went home and then returned to confront George, but I have no way of knowing that. I just know that when George shot Martin he was screaming for help that would come while getting his head beaten into the pavement.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:30 pm

  1129. Also, the ME who did TraMar’s autopsy, Spelling Bao, testified today that naked on his back he measured 71 inches long. He added that since the dead can’t stand height can’t be measured, only length.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:30 pm

  1130. Ship, the ME’s original estimate of time it took TraMar to die was rather brief, a few moments at most according to his report. On the stand Bao changed his estimate to a much longer period, about 10 times longer.

    The reason for the late change was argued at some length today, and was the bone of some rather pointed discussion while Bao was testifying.

    His performance was so lacking in clarity and his answers so obtuse that it put him in the category of another prosecution witness who appeared to be slanting his testimony so obviously that he ended up making it look like GZ was being railroaded.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:41 pm

  1131. He changed the conclusions, based on an autopsy, he observed three weeks ago,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:47 pm

  1132. Observed or read about? Guy’s shot in the heart with a 9mm don’t linger long.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:52 pm

  1133. He did not conduct it,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:57 pm

  1134. Additionally, just how does an ME go about calculating the time it takes for one their subjects to give up the ghost?

    ME’s aren’t usually around when their subjects are in the transitional phase.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:59 pm

  1135. I think they should bring in Ducky from NCIS.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/5/2013 @ 5:00 pm

  1136. Ship wrote, Judge Nelson is a hack.

    Indeed! See my comment #1059 — 7/5/2013 @ 9:04 am
    And, her rulings today only confirm the fact.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 5:14 pm

  1137. The ME stated that the case he witnessed was rare and would be discussed worldwide in peer review publications because the time and suffering of the victim was known (really, you must check out this guy’s testimony, then cringe when you realize he is being paid by the state to do this).

    The ME says the story went like this: suspect shoots the victim and immediately calls police. In the background of the 911 call are clear sounds of pain moans and suffering. When police arrive, ten minutes after the call, the victim is pronounced dead. The victim had a similar heart wound, though the bullet hit his liver instead of the lung as was the case with Trayvon. After viewing this autopsy, he changed his official opinion to state that Trayvon too could have lived for up to 10 minutes. He also used this to provide a narrative of how much suffering Trayvon went through. When the defense objected, the ME tried to fight the objection himself.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/5/2013 @ 5:14 pm

  1138. What a team, Secret Squirrel and the Duck of Death. in the case of the Rain Washed Wandering Racists.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 5:17 pm

  1139. Since it takes about 20 minutes to die from a bullet to the liver, I guess that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that MEs in Florida sure are an open minded and easily influenced bunch of coconuts.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 5:24 pm

  1140. Because he was pronounced dead ten minutes after being shot means that he lived less than ten minutes; how much less we don’t know. Unless he was talking until that ten minute mark.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:16 pm

  1141. But he was actually pronounced three minutes in,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:18 pm

  1142. Sammy, destruction is not the same thing as altered function/size. Here is a link from science daily discussing some recent research on cannabanoids associated with paranoia http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110405174833.htm

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:29 pm

  1143. In the Duke Lacrosse case only the County DA was disbarred. Here, the body count is going much higher. So far, I count the Florida Attorney General, the Special Prosecutor, her team of assistants, the legal team representing TraMar’s parents, 2 Medical Examiners, and a sitting judge.

    Comment by ropelight (b978a4) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:31 pm

  1144. That judge in particular is disturbing as hell to watch. I really didn’t think a directed verdict was justified, but her choices and tenor has been consistently in favor of the state. If she doesn’t know for sure, she sides with the state. If the defense wins one, she barely grants it (or even has to be overruled!).

    She’s made a number of bad calls and I just hope the jury sees this as an injustice. I fear that they don’t know any better and over time are adapting to what could be interpreted as her presumption of guilt.

    We shall see. I am hoping the jury returns a not-guilty verdict after 15 minutes of deliberation, and I am tired of worrying about these rioters who do not rule us.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:35 pm

  1145. Wannabe-never-will-be-a-cop.

    Comment by tifosa (f80695) — 7/6/2013 @ 1:32 pm

  1146. Defensive wounds: bruises on GZ’s arms, cuts, abrasions on his hands, a bent fingernail. A sign that he tried to protect his head/face from the deadly 25-30 blows. (Maybe with the hand he reached for the gun with?)
    Offensive wounds: broken skin, swollen knuckles, an abrasion, a broken fingernail. Something on TM’s hands to show that he threw those 25-30 deadly blows.

    Comment by tifosa (f80695) — 7/6/2013 @ 1:43 pm

  1147. #1141 ropelight

    Way to go big on the prediction.

    I think maybe the ME Bao gets canned. Serino may get demoted (again) just because. That is it.

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/6/2013 @ 1:47 pm

  1148. Dustin, Judge Debra Nelson absolutely should have granted the defense motion to dismiss the case against George Zimmerman. Here’s why:

    When the prosecution rested its case, the defense, as expected, moved for a directed verdict. Both sides presented their arguments. The defense argued that the evidence and the precedents all supported their case, while the prosecution argued their emotionally charged and unsupported narrative.

    Prosecutors misrepresented the evidence at the scene of TraMar’s death, and they misrepresented the testimonial evidence presented at trial, and they did it right under Judge Nelson’s nose, and they did it using outright falsehoods.

    As one blatant example, prosecutor Richard Mantei argued that 4 prosecution witnesses testified that GZ followed TraMar. (Dana’s repetitive assertion) In fact, the only witness testimony that even remotely supports GZ “following” TraMar was the questionable telephone hearsay given by Rachel Jeantel and the strange testimony of Selene Bahadoor who saw lights or shadows moving left to right. And, Bahadoor’s testimony came out of the blue and was offered for the first time while she was on the stand.

    Beyond the prosecution’s unsupported narrative, and their emotional blackmail, they have offered nothing at all to disprove GZ’s claim of self-defense.

    Stripped of misrepresentation, outright falsehoods and emotional appeals to pity, Mantei’s argument comes down to the wrongheaded claim that shooting someone proves ill-will, which begs the question of self-defense which is at the heart of the case and which is the prosecution’s affirmative burden to disprove, else GZ goes free, that’s black letter law.

    Now, lawyers, as professionals and as officers of the court have an affirmative duty to stick to the material facts of a case and to refrain from twisting or misrepresenting either the facts or the law. True, not all attorneys, especially defense attorneys, meet that ethical standard, but prosecutors who deviate significantly find themselves in hot water. Duke Lacrosse DA Mike Nifong is a pertinent example, and it’s entirely possible that a few members of the GZ prosecution team may join him in the rogue’s gallery soon.

    The prosecution flat-out failed to meet it’s burden of disproving GZ’s assertions of self-defense and Judge Nelson should have declaired a directed verdict, according to the facts and according to the law.

    However she denied the motion for a directed verdict, and then inexplicably insisted the defense immediately begin presenting it’s case despite the fact it was already after 5pm on the Friday after July 4th.

    Comment by ropelight (0a59a0) — 7/6/2013 @ 1:56 pm

  1149. I’ve said it several times: I hope that he is acquitted. But, to you, it’s Not Enough to hope he is acquitted, one must also believe that he is a living, breathing saint as well.
    Comment by The amused Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 8:09 am

    Dana, I just came across your post right now and wished I had responded earlier. Although this forum is easier to peruse than before, its general format (small serif typeface?) still makes it sort of a slog to get through.

    I don’t think you or anyone else has to give Zimmerman greater benefit of the doubt because he’s a saint, or that he has to be one in order for a person to side with him. Moreover, I’m troubled by a cynical or skeptical attitude directed towards Zimmerman, first because the reality indicates HE is the one who deserves some sympathy, not Trayvon, and, second, because we live in an age where people already are hesitant about getting involved (We’ll get sued! We’ll get sued!!), hesitant about doing the right thing because of political correctness gone berserk.

    Comment by Mark (8f17bd) — 7/6/2013 @ 2:14 pm

  1150. I agree with Mark about the effects of publicity and this case’s bad influence on civil society: discouraging good people from noticing and reporting things in the future, possibly prompting future witnesses to not come forward for their own safety, and that this circus will foment an increased hesitancy for citizens of all stripes to get involved in crime prevention in their local communities.

    Comment by elissa (ff048d) — 7/6/2013 @ 2:32 pm

  1151. Not to mention, Elissa, that the homeowners association got sued by Trayvon Martin’s family, resulting in a — ka-ching — nice payout, which further whets the appetite of trial lawyers and their prospective clients everywhere. And that, in turn, makes all of us more likely to be meek, fearful, politically-correct church mice.

    Similar to this, there’s the scandal-plagued IRS and various people throughout the US thinking: Should I give to group A or B, which even though they reflect my political beliefs, may cause me more grief when April 15th rolls around and in the long run. Oh, well, America already is down the craphole, so why bother!?

    Trayvon Martin (or his ilk) and Nidal Hasan, in effect, have already won their day in court, in more ways than one.

    Comment by Mark (8f17bd) — 7/6/2013 @ 2:46 pm

  1152. #1144

    If you will lie down on your back with your head on concrete while I straddle you, I will volunteer to let you demonstrate how you can give yourself an offensive wound to the back of the head. Knock yourself out as they say…

    I’ve seen a guy in the tank for drunk, resisting and evidently in the process using up way too much pepper spray being surprise… obnoxious.
    He must have pissed off some cops because he’s in the wrong tank. Some gangster who violated parole gets pissed at the guy who is too drunk to defend himself; the gangster knocks the drunk onto the floor on his back and then starts bouncing his head off the concrete floor. It is a nauseating sound to think of still.
    The tank was full of gangsters so all I could do to help was yell whooooahhh and ahhhhhh as loud as possible like as if I am in the back row of an MMF fight until the SO figures out the noise.. while all the gangsters are hissing don’t snitch bitch at everyone which is always a fun time.

    If you are ever in a fight where your head is on concrete and getting banged onto it, I’d suggest assuming your opponent intends to really really really *bleep* you up and I would recommend shooting them if you’ve got ‘em while you still can

    Comment by SteveG (794291) — 7/6/2013 @ 3:01 pm

  1153. O’Mara refers to this as a “murder case” and he talks to every “murdered person’s mother…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJv87yzw2l0&sns=tw
    5:05: I agree MarkO.

    Comment by tifosa (f80695) — 7/6/2013 @ 3:22 pm

  1154. Now what would that make his client?? hhmmm…

    Comment by tifosa (f80695) — 7/6/2013 @ 4:07 pm

  1155. I’m having trouble following, tifosa. Do you or do you not have faith in the American Judicial system? Do you trust the jury to see through the spinning favorable to their clients which each side obviously does during any trial and focus on the important stuff in order to render a fair verdict or not? None of the commenters here are on the jury, you know. Since reportedly they are sequestered I assume you’re not on the jury either. I’m kinda wondering who and what you are trying to influence here and why you are working so hard at it.

    Comment by elissa (ff048d) — 7/6/2013 @ 4:19 pm

  1156. aw elissa. Just commenting. 1155 comments on the non-jury thread, check!

    Comment by tifosa (f80695) — 7/6/2013 @ 4:31 pm

  1157. Tifosa is wedded to Teh Narrative. He/she/it has been pushing it since its first comment at this site.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/6/2013 @ 4:49 pm

  1158. tif- this thread started on 6/28. There’s quite a bit of trial water that’s passed under the bridge since then. No?

    Comment by elissa (ff048d) — 7/6/2013 @ 4:51 pm

  1159. My prediction, he gets OJ’d.
    Where justice fails, karma prevails. Ask OJ.
    In the end, they take themselves with them.

    Comment by tifosa (f80695) — 7/6/2013 @ 5:00 pm

  1160. elissa,

    I think “tifosa” just doesn’t like white hispanics. Or something.
    …you know, in addition to not liking logic.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (00fc2d) — 7/6/2013 @ 5:01 pm

  1161. This would be not even remotely analogous to OJ.

    Comment by JD (871bc6) — 7/6/2013 @ 5:33 pm

  1162. JD,

    I think what tifosa is trying to say is that Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman attacked OJ Simpson and started pounding him MMA style.
    Therefore, OJ was forced to defend himself. Or something.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (00fc2d) — 7/6/2013 @ 5:39 pm

  1163. Milhouse wrote:

    This is one of the things I find odd: a neighborhood watchman who didn’t know the neighborhood, and had to look for a street sign?

    Nobody knew the names of the streets there. People who live there have no idea what the streets are called.

    Really? So, when someone calls 911, screaming that her husband just had a heart attack, and the dispatcher asks where to send the ambulance, all she can say is “The pink house with the brown shutters, around the corner from my friend Bobbie’s house.” When Cindy fills out her college application, she doesn’t have an address to put on it?

    What a great set up!

    Comment by The geographical Dana (af9ec3) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:34 pm

  1164. Dana, the street names kept changing and people didn’t know any street but their own. A strange point on which to be legalistic, isn’t it? You know what Milhouse meant.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:39 pm

  1165. And I remember the streets in the neighborhood I grew up in better than the streets where I am now, and I’ve lived in this neighborhood for about a quarter century and I still have to look many of them up.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:40 pm

  1166. I don’t know what the Sanford street layout is like, but in say coral gables, a somewhat more affluent South Florida community, many streets and avenues have names and not numbers.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:43 pm

  1167. From the Wiki;

    From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times.[72] During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men’s race without first being asked by the dispatcher.[87][88][89] Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin’s death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[90] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.[64]

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:52 pm

  1168. I am familiar with a quite wealthy township here in SoCal that has no street signs, and most of the houses cannot be seen from the street.
    All residents receive their mail in town at the Post Office (boxes), so there are no mailboxes along the roads (I won’t say streets as there rarely are curbs and sidewalks) to paint an address on. The UPS driver has a GPS that translates individual addresses into geographic co-ordinates, which is how he makes deliveries.

    So, the fact that someone walking down the street might not know the name of the street they are on is not surprising.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:53 pm

  1169. tifosa, Zimmerman has wounds consistent with his story and there is no evidence to the contrary. Your comments are incoherent.

    Comment by SPQR (fc6d10) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:53 pm

  1170. OK, if the street names “kept changing and people didn’t know any street but their own,” wouldn’t a map and information on things like that be one of the first things a neighborhood watch would give their patrolmen?

    And why would street names keep changing? That means that everybody’s address would keep changing as well, raising huge problems for people getting their electric bills and bank statements and Social Security mail and all sorts of things. Businesses would have to keep changing forms, and the post office would be swamped with change of address forms. Calling the Police or the Fire Department would be an absolute nightmare.

    Did I know what Mr Milhouse meant? Yes, I most certainly did . . . and I didn’t believe it. From a small town like the one in which I live, to New York City, streets have names or numbers, usually well marked, because that’s one of the ways in which we organize our civilization.

    Comment by The realistic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:55 pm

  1171. That’s just a day ending in y, SPQR, it’s always interesting, how the ‘subtext’ of these events are often left out of the narrative:

    Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way and he waited for their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2.[64]

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:56 pm

  1172. narciso quoted Wikipedia:

    From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times. During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men’s race without first being asked by the dispatcher. Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin’s death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting. Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.

    So, Mr Zimmerman had been patrolling the area for 18 months, but still didn’t know where he was? If that is true, then he’s an idiot.

    Comment by The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/6/2013 @ 6:59 pm

  1173. I recall some early trial testimony where someone from the condo complex, a property manager, or the head of the Home Owner’s Association, someone connected to the Neighborhood Watch committee, was asked about the street names issue. She, I believe it was a she, testified the names had been changed and it was still causing a good deal of confusion especially for long-term residents.

    Comment by ropelight (0a59a0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:03 pm

  1174. Mail in large housing complexes is most often delivered to a central location and the residents have keys to their individual mailboxes.

    Comment by ropelight (0a59a0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:06 pm

  1175. If you go to Google Earth, and enter
    Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL, North America,
    you’ll see the Twin Lakes Retreat.
    If this occurred in the NW quadrant of the development, I can see why there might be some confusion as to what street you may be on.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:11 pm

  1176. Apparently Dana is intent on not understanding the point that was being made.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:13 pm

  1177. rope, I was talking about a residential enclave that is spread over 7 sq. miles.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:13 pm

  1178. askeptic, something’s not right. The Retreat Circle complex is nowhere near 7 sq. miles, less than a single sq. mile on my map, and I’ve been in Sanford twice in the last 18 months, although never in the RC complex.

    Comment by ropelight (0a59a0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:30 pm

  1179. Dana, there was actual testimony from residents who could not name the streets in the area, or find them on a map. These were prosecution witnesses, mind you (since that’s the only kind who’ve testified yet). So the people on the ground say this is the situation; that trumps your incredulity that it could be so. I’m sure each person knows their own address, just not the names of the nearby streets.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:35 pm

  1180. The 7 Sq. Mi.’s I was talking about are in SoCal.
    See my #1168.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:35 pm

  1181. Wannabe-never-will-be-a-cop.

    1. What on earth is wrong with wanting to be a cop? It’s a respectable job.

    2. If he wanted to be a cop so badly, then why did he turn down the offer to make him an auxiliary cop, complete with official car and uniform?

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:38 pm

  1182. I moved to this house when I was in high-school in the late-50′s.
    There are two streets a couple blocks away that to this day I can never get straight.
    I explain it away by saying that the connecting steet (back then) was a dead-end so it didn’t connect, therefore, I never used those two streets for ingress/egress to this house, and they just never imprinted.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:38 pm

  1183. 1064. This is one of the things I find odd: a neighborhood watchman who didn’t know the neighborhood, and had to look for a street sign?

    Comment by The practical Dana (3e4784) — 7/5/2013 @ 9:17 am

    I think you’re operating under the wrong impression of what a neighborhood watch does. I suppose some may conduct patrols, but typically they try to train residents in cooperation with the police in what to look for.

    The neighborhood I live in is has a neighborhood watch program, but they don’t do patrols. If you’re interested in that there’s a “Citizens On Patrol” (COP) program with the police. They’ll give you a patrol car clearly labelled as part of the COP program, and no doubt some training, and send you out to drive around and report crimes or accidents.

    But the neighborhood watch program doesn’t do that so it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find someone involved in it who needed to go look for a street sign if they wanted to report a suspicious someone when not by their home.

    http://www.usaonwatch.org/

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:50 pm

  1184. I don’t know what happened to Dana’s brain. He’s been an admirably solid and reliably sensible guy for years, but the dispute over amnesty for illegal aliens put him on tilt and he’s been ostentatiously doubling down on losing positions ever since.

    Too much Mountain Dew, maybe.

    Comment by ropelight (0a59a0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:57 pm

  1185. A little context;

    Statements given by Zimmerman have indicated that on the night of the shooting Zimmerman was in his vehicle on a personal errand when he noticed Martin walking beyond the gated fence inside the community. Statements then read that Zimmerman then called the Sanford Police Department to report Martin’s behavior as suspicious, stating “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about” and “looking at all the houses”[7][8],

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:03 pm

  1186. Narcisco

    If it was dark and raining how was z able while driving by to figure out all this from what distance?

    How did z know he didn’t belong, and was walking around when z was driving to target?

    Comment by EPWJ (c3dbb4) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:20 pm

  1187. I’ve lived at the same house for the past dozen years, and while I remember the cross streets on each corner, I don’t remember the name of the cross street two streets east of my house.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:20 pm

  1188. “I don’t know what happened to Dana’s brain. He’s been an admirably solid and reliably sensible guy for years, but the dispute over amnesty for illegal aliens put him on tilt and he’s been ostentatiously doubling down on losing positions ever since.”

    - ropelight

    Yeah! How dare Dana challenge my preconceived notions of him?! Whatever happened to picking a side and sticking with it?!

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:37 pm

  1189. Here’s a hint: maybe he takes issue with the fact that so many people here seem to think he has to march in lockstep.

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:38 pm

  1190. Too much Mountain Dew, maybe.

    Comment by ropelight (0a59a0) — 7/6/2013 @ 7:57 pm

    Hillbilly Mountain Dew, ropelight!

    Comment by peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 7/6/2013 @ 9:05 pm

  1191. Dana’s been saying a lot of things I’ve been thinking. The jury is going to struggle with this case and I’m not happy with the help they’re getting. It may seem cut and dried to a lot of people but what’s in front of the jury is an incoherent mess.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/6/2013 @ 9:19 pm

  1192. Dana keeps claiming that his opinion comes from a sense of outrage that people here consider Zimmerman a saint.

    But since I’m not aware of anyone who considers Zimmerman a saint, that response baffles me.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/6/2013 @ 9:44 pm

  1193. Here’s a hint: maybe he takes issue with the fact that so many people here seem to think he has to march in lockstep.

    I think Dana believes what he believes and never gave into school yard tants

    Comment by E.PWJ (c3dbb4) — 7/6/2013 @ 9:50 pm

  1194. 1188. “I don’t know what happened to Dana’s brain. He’s been an admirably solid and reliably sensible guy for years, but the dispute over amnesty for illegal aliens put him on tilt and he’s been ostentatiously doubling down on losing positions ever since.”

    - ropelight

    Yeah! How dare Dana challenge my preconceived notions of him?! Whatever happened to picking a side and sticking with it?!

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:37 pm

    1189. Here’s a hint: maybe he takes issue with the fact that so many people here seem to think he has to march in lockstep.

    Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 7/6/2013 @ 8:38 pm

    It’s our inconsistencies that really define us as individuals, I’ve come to learn.

    As I am learning afresh on the Hawthorne dog shooting thread.

    Still, I think it behooves us to follow where the evidence leads in all cases, and not be inconsistent on the basis that we refuse to believe the evidence in some cases.

    If following the evidence leads to what others would call inconsistencies, then so be it. My issue with Dana on this comment thread isn’t that he arrived at a different conclusion than I have, or even that he arrived at a different conclusion than his prior comments have led me to believe Dana would hold in this instance, but that I don’t believe he’s considering the full weight of the evidence.

    But apparent inconsistencies in and of themselves bother me not a bit.

    Comment by Steve57 (c74c87) — 7/6/2013 @ 10:03 pm

  1195. I don’t think Dana should march in lockstep. And I don’t suspect most others think he should either.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/6/2013 @ 10:30 pm

  1196. I couldn’t march a quarter mile in lock step w/Korean war vets.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/6/2013 @ 10:34 pm

  1197. No, but the whole template, relies on ‘the depraved mind’ to void the self defense claim, when it seemed like a very reasonable instance,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/6/2013 @ 10:35 pm

  1198. “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about” and “looking at all the houses”[7][8]”

    Trayvon Martin was new to the area, and I think had just arrived that day in fact, and didn’t know that, no matter how many houses he looked at, he was not going to find the house number written on or near the front door!! He might haave been trying to check inside too to see if he could find someone (apparently, UPS and the police used GPS to find locations – and the mailboxes were all at one location – the same location where George Zimmerman did not want to meet the police at)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/6/2013 @ 11:09 pm

  1199. Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/5/2013 @ 4:08 pm

    Why would Martin be screaming for help as he pounds a man’s head into the pavement?

    The prosecution theory is that he wasn’t, and that it was George Zimmerman who was pounding Trayvon Martin into the grass.

    The prosecution and the defemse seem to the agree that the person screaming was the person on the bottom.

    But there is one crucial fact or two that, alone, makes the odds not 50-50 as to who it is:

    1) The Gun that was fired belonged to George Zimmerman and killed Trayvon Martin.

    2) The gun was pressed right up against Trayvon Martin’s clothes.

    3) The screaming (and the struggle) continued right up until the gunshot was heard.

    IF George Zimmerman was on the bottom screaming and struggling, it makes sense that the gun would have been placed right up against Trayvon Marton’s clothes. He couldn’t get any further. He couldn’t get up.

    But if Trayvon Martin was on the bottom and screaming and struggling and not begging for mercy but for help from strangers, aand George Zimmerman wanted to use his gun out of malice, it is much less likely that George Ziommerman would have been able to, or wanted to, press that gun right up against Trayvon Martin’s clothes.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/6/2013 @ 11:20 pm

  1200. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:18 pm

    But he was actually pronounced three minutes in

    It seems like the prosecution doesn’t expect all of its testimony to be consistent with itself.

    We know exactly when the gunshot was fired because we have the time stamps of the 911 calls the neighbors made.

    But does the jury know?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/6/2013 @ 11:28 pm

  1201. I think they are trying to pretend the police took longer to arrive on the scme time after they really did, in order to show Geoge Zimmerman had depraved indifference toward human life because he didn’t call an ambulance for Trayvon Martin.

    Now the thing is we know how quickly they arrived not just because of the times they wrote but also because police dispatchers wrote that down and because on one or more 911 tapes the caller is told the police have arrived.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/6/2013 @ 11:29 pm

  1202. * think they are trying to pretend the police took longer to arrive on the scene than they really did, and arrived some time after they in fact did.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/6/2013 @ 11:30 pm

  1203. taunts

    Comment by E.PWJ (c3dbb4) — 7/6/2013 @ 11:41 pm

  1204. I don’t think Dana should march in lockstep. And I don’t suspect most others think he should either.

    I’ve seen too many threads where someone who’s merely being a contrarian (and NOT for contrarian’s sake—meaning he isn’t trying to set up flame bait), because he or she apparently truly believes what he’s writing, is branded a “troll” by various forumers, which always bothers me. So not marching in lockstep is the last thing that puzzles me about Dana. I’m only curious about what makes him struggle to be less emotionally cynical about Zimmerman than about Martin.

    I’m guessing Dana has never spent much or any time at a public school where plenty of other kids were black, as I did. Speaking of which, perhaps one of the few, if only, people in the entire public arena who has ever been very candid about the socio-cultural scene in a good portion of the African-American community is (yep, you got it) Howard Stern. He too attended a school that went from being predominantly white to mostly black, and he’s never pulled back from describing the less-than-flattering behavior of way too many black teens. Or the type of behavior that made even Jesse Jackson say that when he’s out on a public sidewalk and can tell that someone is strolling behind him, and then turns around and notices the person is a white guy instead of a black guy, he suddenly becomes less nervous.

    It’s easy to talk the talk when you’ve never walked the walk, literally or figuratively.

    Comment by Mark (8f17bd) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:36 am

  1205. Thinking it over, there is maybe no reason to think that Trayvon Martin categortized Geirge Zimmerman as a Blood, but it could be any kind of a gangsta. Nor wasit necesssary that he thhought he had been identified as qa Crip, but only that he targeted.

    The fewere allies he thought GZ had, the more bold he might be in attacking, but also the less reason he would have to do it.

    He almost certainly discussed whatever he was thinking on that telephone call. Now…how to get a witness to break down and tell the truth.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/7/2013 @ 9:18 am

  1206. there is maybe no reason to think that Trayvon Martin categortized Geirge Zimmerman as a Blood

    Indeed. Wait… what?!?

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/7/2013 @ 10:19 am

  1207. #1199
    “The prosecution theory is that he
    wasn’t, and that it was George
    Zimmerman who was pounding Trayvon
    Martin into the grass.”
    It is?

    Comment by tifosa (72dfd7) — 7/7/2013 @ 10:44 am

  1208. That’s a good question, tifosa. I’ve watched about half of the trial and clearly the prosecution believes Zimmerman profiled, followed, and murdered Trayvon Martin. But I honestly don’t know what the prosecution’s theory is regarding what Martin did that night after he met/confronted Zimmerman. The most I can say is the prosecution clearly believes Martin didn’t do anything violent or wrong.

    Now that the prosecution has rested its case, what do you think the prosecution believes Trayvon Martin did that night and what evidence did it offer as proof?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:05 am

  1209. there is maybe no reason to think that Trayvon Martin categortized Geirge Zimmerman as a Blood

    Indeed. Wait… what?!?

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/7/2013 @ 10:19 am

    Did Sammy have a moment of clarity?
    Barkeep. More whiskey for Sammy. (You can tell he’s drying out. His spelling improved.)

    Comment by papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:08 am

  1210. If/when Zimmerman – 25% black – is acquitted, and the rumored rioting by Trayvon Martin fans ensues, there will be no more clear an indictment of the mainstream media’s casting the affair as race-based, pitting white against black, than their transparent attempt to gin up the black/minority vote in the 2012 elections.

    And their should be more than a tingle run up Chris Matthews’s leg.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (3eb711) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:08 am

  1211. Haiku, it’s yet another example of democrats trying to control blacks in the short term, and particularly with their votes, while displaying a profound lack of concern for their actual long term welfare.

    If there are riots, it’s likely it will affect the ‘aggrieved’ the most. Do the people making political issues out of this stuff care? I don’t think they really do. I think they are evil.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:12 am

  1212. 1195-Yeah, it isn’t like the RINO label ever gets thrown at anyone…

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:33 am

  1213. post #1211… well said, Dustin.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (3eb711) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:44 am

  1214. Your concern is noted, Tye

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:45 am

  1215. However she denied the motion for a directed verdict, and then inexplicably insisted the defense immediately begin presenting it’s case despite the fact it was already after 5pm on the Friday after July 4th.

    I don’t understand why people are complaining about this or suggesting it is a pro-prosecution move. If I’m the defense, I’m thrilled to get in a couple of witnesses before the weekend. The principle of recency dictates that the parents’ testimony will be ringing in the jurors’ ears all weekend.

    Comment by Patterico (9c670f) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:45 am

  1216. That’s a fifty foot squirrel, they released;

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:47 am

  1217. DRJ, we’ll know in the closing. My guess: put together “these assholes, they always get away” that GZ himself said was referring to the people committing the break-ins (profiling,) pursuing the kid with a gun that wasn’t only loaded, but had a shell chambered, the forensic evidence (including no offensive wounds on TM’s hands,) the series of GZ’s lies…
    Only a guess.

    Comment by tifosa (72dfd7) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:52 am

  1218. http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/in-busting-zimmerman-myths-jonathan-capehart-perpetuates-the-greatest-myth-of-all/#comments

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 11:53 am

  1219. I am assuming that the prosecution brought the case to court because they thought they could prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Z killed Martin with willful intent and malice, and they characterize Z as “stalking” Martin to provide evidence that Z began the entire episode, if not the actual face to face encounter, out of “malicious profiling”.

    I would imagine that many “average people” in the jury would start out their deliberations thinking there was a reasonable chance of this being the case, and so started out looking for reasons why the prosecution was wrong. They are likely to see that perhaps there was not much of the prosecution’s case that was shown to be in obvious and direct conflict with the facts.
    On the other hand, I think those who assume the person is innocent until proven guilty and that the burden of proof is on the prosecution to show their case is valid beyond a reasonable doubt will see that there is no case unless was starts out assuming, “profiling” if you will, that Z not being Black is obviously a racist looking for an excuse to shoot a Black and get away with it.

    The fact that the judge told the defense to go on with their case only adds to the general sense that people think Martin was guilty of something, so maybe we they jury should find him guilty of something.

    Maybe lady justice should not only have a blindfold but earplugs to avoid misinterpretation of the facts…

    No. I don’t know how that would work, just sayin’.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 12:04 pm

  1220. DRJ – tifosa is quite wedded to Teh Narrative.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 12:05 pm

  1221. A “defensive pistol” without a cartridge in the chamber is something that belongs to a casualty.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/7/2013 @ 12:10 pm

  1222. A “defensive pistol” without a cartridge in the chamber is something that belongs to a casualty.
    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/7/2013 @ 12:10 pm

    Exactly. If things depended upon me, the suggestion that a cartridge in the chamber indicated a desire for a premeditated attack would be treated as a willful distortion of truth, i.e., a lie, and I would tell the prosecutor and the defense to stick with the facts and not feeding the jury misleading characterizations.
    But they don’t.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 12:17 pm

  1223. I think anyone who trusts the state, and in particular prosecutors, is a fool.

    This case just highlights that.

    They, as institutions, do not care about people. They care about compliance to the state’s rules.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/7/2013 @ 12:20 pm

  1224. 1214- Thank you for so noting, toonces.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/7/2013 @ 1:16 pm

  1225. tifosa, everyone who carries a gun for self-defense does so with a round chambered. By your bizarre logic, every police officer is a murderer. And your “forensic evidence” is in your imagination.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 1:26 pm

  1226. Sammy lanche’s at us: “But if Trayvon Martin was on the bottom and screaming and struggling and not begging for mercy but for help from strangers, aand George Zimmerman wanted to use his gun out of malice, it is much less likely that George Ziommerman would have been able to, or wanted to, press that gun right up against Trayvon Martin’s clothes.

    That’s nothing but your imagination,Sammy. Fights don’t happen as neatly and predictably as your imagination.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 1:27 pm

  1227. tifosa, everyone who carries a gun for self-defense does so with a round chambered.

    Obviously. What’s really despicable is that the prosecution tried to make hay out of this point.

    What evil bastards. For what they are doing, I’d like to see the prosecutors serve decades in prison — trying to send an almost-certainly innocent (and good) man to prison with lies and blustering hyperbole.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/7/2013 @ 1:35 pm

  1228. 1227-Send the prosecution to prison for trying to prosecute!

    Can we also jail engineers for designing things, teachers for educating, and athletes for working out?

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/7/2013 @ 1:52 pm

  1229. Martin had a defensive bullet wound?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/7/2013 @ 2:02 pm

  1230. Former Conservative, prosecutors in self defense cases have been known to try even more outrageous arguments to juries to get juries to convict on the basis of fraudulently evoked emotions rather than evidence.

    They often rely upon the ignorance of the jury to accept theories as outlandish as tifosa’s fantasies.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/7/2013 @ 2:58 pm

  1231. Wait, hold up, time out…

    Dana’s a dude? It doesn’t matter in the slightest, I just assumed Dana was a chick’s name. Now I’m gonna have to come up with a new reading voice for him.

    What about the (insert witty descriptor) Dana who (another witty descriptor)? Is the other Dana a man or woman?

    Comment by Ghost (2d8874) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:28 pm

  1232. Ghost, hadn’t you ever heard of the late great film actor, Dana Andrews ?!

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:33 pm

  1233. Ghost, there is a female Dana from the west coast whose handle here is just “Dana”, and a male Dana from the east coast who always uses adjectives or descriptors along with his name. It’s not hard to figure out once you get used to it and their writing styles are pretty different, too.

    Comment by elissa (95fb63) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:34 pm

  1234. Dana Millbank, too.

    Comment by elissa (95fb63) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:35 pm

  1235. #1229 My question was about OFFENSIVE wounds on TM, signs he punched “over a dozen” or 25-30 times, and DEFENSIVE wounds on GZ (he said that he was trying to get TM’s hands off his nose and mouth.)

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:43 pm

  1236. Lack of offensive or defensive wounds means exactly bupkis, tifosa, and is purely a SQUIRREL argument to muddy the waters in an attempt to confuzzled people, based on the abject inability of Teh Narrative to produce a compelling or logical case for conviction.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:48 pm

  1237. tifosa, there is no evidence contrary to Zimmerman’s story. All of the evidence presented is consistent with Zimmerman’s story.

    So your only argument is to fabricate “evidence” that you claim should exist consistent with your elaborated fantasy of what Zimmerman’s story should have been. That isn’t how this works.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/7/2013 @ 3:54 pm

  1238. Which story? The one at the police station on 2/26, the walk-through on 2/27, the interviews on 2/29, or the Hannity interview?

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:13 pm

  1239. It does seem the whole thing was fabricated out of whole cloth, SPQR, all the context was removed from the event,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:17 pm

  1240. #1215, Patterico — 7/7/2013 @ 11:45 am

    Your point about recency would carry more weight if it was TraMar’s Mother’s testimony ringing in the jury’s ears, but TraMar’s brother and the autopsy ME, Shiping Bao, followed her on the stand and both of them drowned out her emotional appeal with their mendacity.

    Jaharvis Fulton had to admit that he wasn’t sure the screams on the 911 tape were TraMar’s, at least initially and in a media interview he did weeks after he first heard the tape in the Sanford Mayor’s office. (Judge Nelson prevented the defense from asking Jaharvis who else was present in the Mayor’s office…)

    Next, Shiping Bao testified and presented the living image of a prosecution shill, unwilling to answer defense questions directly, obstinate in his refusal to deviate from his prepared notes, and unwilling to allow defense attorneys to examine his cheat sheets. Again the incompetent Judge Nelson opened yet another door to reversible bias.

    Bao was another in the unbroken string of prosecution witness that undermined the prosecution’s case and he in particular demonstrated a level of official arrogance and overt bias that would have made Uncle Joe’s prosecutors blush.

    So, when the prosecution rested it’s case after 5pm on the Friday after July 4th, and Judge Nelson insisted the defense proceed immediately, the muffled ring of Sybrina Fulton’s testimony had already long faded into low dull almost inaudible dog whistle of a racist prosecution’s blasphmous yelp.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:20 pm

  1241. 1236- I suppose that it is easier for you to label an argument as a squirrel, so that you don’t have to actually use your reasoning skills, toonces.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:28 pm

  1242. Ian G., there is no “argument” in that distraction of tifosa’s. Regardless its been repeating rebutted in thread. Over and over and over again.

    Your attempt to pretend otherwise is your usual troll dishonesty.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:31 pm

  1243. Everybody who disagrees with you is a troll. That doesn’t sound very American.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:39 pm

  1244. He’s still hung up with Judd Legum’s thinkregress talking points,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:44 pm

  1245. #1229 My question was about OFFENSIVE wounds on TM, signs he punched “over a dozen” or 25-30 times, and DEFENSIVE wounds on GZ (he said that he was trying to get TM’s hands off his nose and mouth.)

    TM’s hands showed wounds consistent with him having been in a fight. That’s the offensive wounds you were looking for. GZ may or may not have had defensive wounds, but his nose was bloodied and broken, and the back of his head was bleeding, so it’s clear he took punches from someone (perhaps someone whose hands showed wounds consistent with having been in a fight).

    If that’s all you’ve got, you’ll have to try harder.

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (8dd23e) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:52 pm

  1246. Chuck, link? The autopsy read that aside from the bullet, there was one other wound, a tiny abrasion, 1/4×1/8″ on the 4th finger of left hand. We saw pics of front and backs of his hands postmortem.

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:58 pm

  1247. Chuck, again his nose wasn’t broken….

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:59 pm

  1248. #1246, tifosa, Let’s see the pics of the front and back of TraMar’s hands. You say “We” saw them, however I haven’t seen them. Show them please.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:06 pm

  1249. Sorry, no such pictures were taken.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:13 pm

  1250. The medical examiner doesn’t even remember the autopsy.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:16 pm

  1251. who’s “TraMar?”

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:21 pm

  1252. Another falsehood on your part, Ian G. Lots of people disagree with me that are not trolls. Several of them here. As you’ve no coherent argument to make, you are not among them.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:21 pm

  1253. The autopsy doc is on-line. The pics aren’t. My mistake.

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:25 pm

  1254. #1251, tifosa, TraMar is Trayvon Martin, the dead teenager George Zimmerman is on trial for killing, but you know that. Now quit stalling and produce the pictures you say “We” saw.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:28 pm

  1255. That wasn’t a mistake, it was a lie.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:30 pm

  1256. I saw Zim’s, not TM’s. My mis- total, outright, whopper of a lie. :)

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:35 pm

  1257. Chuck, again his nose wasn’t broken….

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:59 pm

    Can anyone count how many times EPWJ has lied about this?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:36 pm

  1258. The IanG/Tye persona never seems to tire of jumping up and down, waving his arms wildly and screaming “look at meeeeee”, does he? I actually feel a little sorry for poor tifosa that she has to drag along the anvil of his alleged “support” and “defense” of her when we all, including tif, know it is nothing of the kind.

    Comment by elissa (95fb63) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:37 pm

  1259. This is how this case was presented from the outset, his ethnicity was made opaque ‘white hispanic’ his words in the transcript were edited, not once but on three different occasions, everything he had done before that cast a positive view on his character went down the memory hole,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:38 pm

  1260. Everybody who disagrees with you is a troll. That doesn’t sound very American.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/7/2013 @ 4:39 pm

    Tye – No, just people like you. And tifosa.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:43 pm

  1261. tifosa #1217:

    DRJ, we’ll know in the closing.

    The prosecution has the burden of proof so if the jury doesn’t know the prosecution’s theory of what Trayvon Martin did that night until the closing argument, I’d say it’s a good bet the defense wins.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:46 pm

  1262. tifosa, don’t you owe an apology to the readers here for pushing the no offensive wounds on TraMar’s hands meme, and attempting to back the assertion up with the false claim that “We” saw pictures to prove it?

    It’s one thing to pull a phony assertion out of you neither regions, and it’s another to claim you’ve seen pictures to prove it.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:46 pm

  1263. Here you go, tifosa:

    link

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (8dd23e) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:47 pm

  1264. JD

    I’m relying on the medical examiners professional testimony, rather than a note from a personal physician – how many days after the incident?

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:50 pm

  1265. One of the two are lying then

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:50 pm

  1266. Chuck – EPWJ and tifosa have access to info that everyone else does not.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:51 pm

  1267. Aristotle is Belgian, and the London Underground is a political movement.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  1268. EPWJ – The medical examiner that never physically evaluated GZ, and based her testimony on photographs? That ME?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  1269. Why would a family physician, who evaluated GZ the day after the incident be less credible than an ME who never evaluated GZ?

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 5:55 pm

  1270. http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/TRAYVON-MARTIN-AUTOPSY.pdf

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:00 pm

  1271. Angela Corey’s pet ME, Valerie Rao, may not have evaluated either TraMar or GZ, but she did stay at a Holiday Inn while waiting to a fool of herself at the trial.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:01 pm

  1272. JD

    Many medical examinations extensively use photographs, in the case of Z its wasn’t a very difficult call.

    If I agree with you its very important, but the media misleading everyone, by giving this very biased personal physicians report factual basis has thrown everyone off.

    Z screams for help didn’t sound like it came from someone with a broken nose. A severely broken nose can distort vision, and can swell up within a few minutes certainly within the time frame he was in custody, which it didn’t or pictures of it swollen with the blackened guys and the bruises – those certainly would have been shared in discovery and in the early motions to drop the case.

    Of he cannot produce these – its going to be tough now after the dna tech and the asst medical examiners additional testimony.

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:04 pm

  1273. JD

    Another myth. It was a physician his lawyer sent him to not the day after the incident – another misleading report. JD if he had all those documented injuries the grand jury would never have charged the guy

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:07 pm

  1274. #1273, EPWJ, GZ wasn’t charged by a grand jury. Once Angela Corey was appointed she skipped the scheduled grand jury presentation and indicted GZ directly, likely because she didn’t think she could persuade a grand jury to vote for an indictment.

    If you’s read Beldar’s comments you’d already know that.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:14 pm

  1275. JD if he had all those documented injuries the grand jury would never have charged the guy

    I suppose you can direct us to the grand jury findings? ZOMFG

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:15 pm

  1276. EMT report from that night: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:17 pm

  1277. tifosa, your link at #1276 is broken.

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:19 pm

  1278. So, let me get this straight, for GZ to have told the truth, the list of liars would include EMT from that night, the ME, Alexis Carter, the funeral director: http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/report_funeral_director_says_n.html
    anyone else?

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:21 pm

  1279. JD if he had all those documented injuries the grand jury would never have charged the guy
    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:07 pm

    Umm, there was no grand jury that charged the guy, the prosecutor brought it to trial without a grand jury.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:21 pm

  1280. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:22 pm

  1281. If EPWJ were injured or g-d forbid one of his daughters suffered an injury I’m sure he would want his personal physician to review and treat and document the wounds, breaks, sprains or bruises rather than take a chance on a stranger diagnosing from a picture. Any of us who are sane and care about ourselves or our families would want that hands on touch. Members of the jury would want that for themselves and for their loved ones. The diagnosis by photo is one of the truly most bizarre and insulting aspects of the state’s case as far as I am concerned. I can’t believe anybody is defending that piece of idiocy or taking it seriously.

    Comment by elissa (95fb63) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:22 pm

  1282. It’s like something out of Python or Saturday Night Live,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:25 pm

  1283. Tifosa apparently lives in an alternate reality where prosecution witnesses that were devastating to the prosecution were not.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:27 pm

  1284. The family physician, by just exam, no xray, reported intact septum, no sign of blood, the EMT reported intact mucous membrane.
    Would you comment MD?

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:28 pm

  1285. tifosa,
    lets make this real easy,
    everybody lied, nobody lied, or somebody lied, and we don’t know who

    we have a person who was in contact with police, expecting them to come, who by his account had shot and killed the person in self defense by the time the police got there
    we have the prosecutor saying the defendant is a white Hispanic, the murder victim is black, therefore it was a racially motivated murder

    and we have competing relatives claiming whose voice was yelling help

    and one witness, who as far as I can tell seemed the most definitive, who saw at one point in time second before the shooting that Martin was on top of Z

    Now, no matter who was lying, where did the prosecution give evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Z is guilty of murder?

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:28 pm

  1286. elissa, one question suggests itself here: if Valerie Rao came to her conclusions based on looking at the pictures of TraMar’s hands, and ME Shiping Bao testified he didn’t take any pictures of TraMar’s hands at the autopsy, where, it is reasonable and prudent to ask, did Rao get the pics she used in her analysis?

    Comment by ropelight (20622b) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:29 pm

  1287. The diagnosis by photo is one of the truly most bizarre and insulting aspects of the state’s case as far as I am concerned. I can’t believe anybody is defending that piece of idiocy or taking it seriously.

    Who better than EPWJ to defend such a practice, and suggest that it is more credible than a doctor that actually evaluated GZ

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:30 pm

  1288. JD

    They wouldn’t have charged him if he all those documented injuries

    I don’t read Beldar much I usually just respond to JD,RJ or Dustin

    JD

    my keyboards acting up and I have to be in NY Tomorrow and then DC so to make it brief

    1. those injuries were not “officially” documented
    2. We only have Z’s explanation for the nights events
    3. all those witnesses said exactly nothing, except that martin was on top (big for Z, very big)
    4 med examiner testifies Z version of events is a total lie no injuries consistent with his version (the only version) of the incident (potentially big for Martin)
    5. DNA expert said martins dna was not on Z and Z’s was not on Martins hands (did the rain wash it away?, if not Huge against Z huge – convictable on that alone in some cases IMO)
    6. Z told a friend and the police? that Martin grabbed the gun, no DNA on gun no GSR on Martins hands

    And there were lots more like not knowing what street but knowing that Martin didn’t live there? Forgot the took a gun? Didn’t tell dispatch he was armed? Didn’t know the stand your ground but did?

    not good

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:31 pm

  1289. I meant comment on the medical evals of the nose. :) But thanx.

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:32 pm

  1290. Would you comment MD?
    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:28 pm

    I’m not going to comment unless I take the time to review the primary sources myself, and I’m not.
    Whether or not Z can make a claim he was afraid for his life does not depend on whether his nose was broken, that has been covered many times.
    Whether there is a claim that Z lied about his nose being broken, when it wasn’t, has not been clear to me, which is the only thing I could see that would make a difference.
    The doc later saying, “heh, the septum is intact, I don’t see any current bleeding, he is breathing fine through his nose is what a doc would do seeing a patient with the intent of seeing the patient, not a doc who is thinking about documenting the level of injury for a trial. So, unless the doc was thinking, “Hey, I need to document the extent of injury for a trial” he may well have thought no xrays were indicated.
    There are times where the phrase, “What difference does it make?” is actually appropriate.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  1291. JD

    All the time, bodies decay and photographing the position of the body, the intial outlibne of indentions which can dissipate or distort such as bite marks, defensive wounds are EXTREMELY important. The position of the body, scrapes on the ground, plaster casts, resin casts, all are important – doctors, dentists, orthodontist’s, use photos, xray, other mediumall the time. Expert medical testimony is given constantly from photos.

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  1292. There was no grand jury, and locals did not choose to pursue charges.

    Your 1-6 would make even Crump blush.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  1293. Resonating some understanding;

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/why-zimmermans-motion-for-acquittal-should-have-been-granted/#comments

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:37 pm

  1294. we cross posted before

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:38 pm

  1295. md,

    he was sent to a doctor by his attorney, is wasn’t the day after, another myth….

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:38 pm

  1296. I agree – the injuries are all that’s going to keep him out of prison…

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:39 pm

  1297. Reality is only tangential to honesty for EPWJ and tiffy.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:39 pm

  1298. Thanx MD.

    Comment by tifosa (70bb94) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:40 pm

  1299. good night everyone, dont shoot any dogs

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:40 pm

  1300. EPWJ
    one comment to you
    you are expecting a jury to convict on the basis of a lot of non-findings from a DNA lab and a supposed lack of confirmation about the extent of injuries that doesn’t matter anyway

    yes, all we have is Z’s story, the one direct witness corroborates Z’s story, Z’s behavior correlates with Z’s story

    the only thing that does not line up with Z’s story is that he is not black and the victim is, hence it “had to be” a racially motivated murder.

    No justice for all, no justice at all, and the colors don’t matter.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:42 pm

  1301. Braca is a self defense ideologue, and a NRA lifer.
    He ignored a crucial fact – we dont know why Martin punched Z – he could have grabbed Martin, then killed him

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:46 pm

  1302. Your welcome, tifosa.

    To clarify and reiterate:
    If a patient came to me, sent by a lawyer or not, after an altercation to evaluate for a broken nose, if I was thinking along the lines of evaluating for a broken nose I would ask questions and do an exam, and if the nasal septum was not obviously deviated and there was no obstruction to normal breathing, I would say, “You’re fine” and send him on his way, because whether or not there was any evidence on an x-ray of trauma there would be no difference in the treatment of the patient,
    I would have to step outside of my normal thinking to order an X-ray “just because”;
    as you know, we doctors would rather not do unnecessary tests in order to keep costs down.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:48 pm

  1303. He ignored a crucial fact – we dont know why Martin punched Z – he could have grabbed Martin, then killed him
    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:46 pm

    A Martian could have told Martin to punch Z as well.

    Of course, then again maybe Martin just wanted some “crackers”.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:51 pm

  1304. Everybody who disagrees with you is a troll. That doesn’t sound very American.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693)

    Neither does the name “Ian”…

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (a2daba) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:54 pm

  1305. ==one question suggests itself here: if Valerie Rao came to her conclusions based on looking at the pictures of TraMar’s hands, and ME Shiping Bao testified he didn’t take any pictures of TraMar’s hands at the autopsy, where, it is reasonable and prudent to ask, did Rao get the pics she used in her analysis?==

    Rope, We’re dissing Rao’s analysis of Zimmerman which she says she made by looking at pictures of George’s head and face.

    Comment by elissa (95fb63) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:59 pm

  1306. “He ignored a crucial fact – we dont know why Martin punched Z – he could have grabbed Martin, then killed him”

    The first half of this bizarre sentence is itself an oxymoron of sorts, you can’t “ignore” something that is unknown. So there is no “fact” at all. The latter half about some invented “grabbing” that is not in evidence is not a “fact” either.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:04 pm

  1307. Former Conservative, prosecutors in self defense cases have been known to try even more outrageous arguments to juries to get juries to convict on the basis of fraudulently evoked emotions rather than evidence.

    They often rely upon the ignorance of the jury to accept theories as outlandish as tifosa’s fantasies.

    Comment by SPQR (60ba58) — 7/7/2013 @ 2:58 pm

    I absolutely believe it.

    Comment by Former Conservative (0d8bff) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:08 pm

  1308. Z’s attorney, referring to a quite adequate picture of Z’s bloody face and swollen nose, broken or not, at the link from narciso, which one should always follow:
    You cannot look at that picture of my client’s nose and say that he wasn’t beaten in the face. You can’t look at the back of his head and say he wasn’t beaten in the back of the head. You cannot look at the autopsy of Mr. Martin and not realize that my client never intended to nor landed one blow on Mr. Martin,

    G’night

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:09 pm

  1309. “4 med examiner testifies Z version of events is a total lie no injuries consistent with his version (the only version) of the incident (potentially big for Martin)”

    Didn’t happen. The medical examiner’s testimony did no such thing.

    “5. DNA expert said martins dna was not on Z and Z’s was not on Martins hands (did the rain wash it away?, if not Huge against Z huge – convictable on that alone in some cases IMO)”

    This establishes nothing and is not a refutation of Zimmerman’s story at all.

    “6. Z told a friend and the police? that Martin grabbed the gun, no DNA on gun no GSR on Martins hands”

    Again, irrelevant and not inconsistent with Zimmerman’s story. The lack of GSR is itself not proof of anything in itself. It just means that Martin’s hands were not on the gun or near its muzzle at the time it was discharged.

    What a truly bizarre list of nothing you have there EPWJ.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:09 pm

  1310. tifosa, I find it hilarious that you link a document that refutes your own claims at 6:22pm above.

    The FD report documents the bleeding wound to the back of the head, the forehead abrasion and the bleeding from the nose (that also all appear in the contemporaneous photos of Zimmerman).

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:13 pm

  1311. if he had all those documented injuries the grand jury would never have charged the guy

    Comment by E.PWJ (07f158) — 7/7/2013 @ 6:07 pm

    They didn’t.

    The police initially didn’t want to charge, the county D.A. didn’t want to charge, political pressure was brought to bear, a handpicked special prosecutor was appointed, the prosecution team said they’d go to a grand jury, and then bypassed the grand jury.

    Remember that credibility you didn’t have? There are reasons for that.

    Comment by Former Conservative (0d8bff) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:15 pm

  1312. “Remember that credibility you didn’t have? There are reasons for that.”

    This.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:18 pm

  1313. I agree that whether the nose was broken or not is irrelevant to self-defense. I will add that when I broke my nose I did not have black eyes or any other visible sign once the bleeding stopped. I do have a somewhat deviated septum which caused some problems when I had a naso-tracheal intubation done later in life.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (d3a91f) — 7/7/2013 @ 7:56 pm

  1314. 1288 Z told a friend and the police? that Martin grabbed the gun,

    No, he didn’t tell the police that. What he told the police (and/or his brother) was that Martin saw his gun and he was afraid he might grab it – and in fact had been afraid Martin might see it and grab it the whole time since the fight began.

    And he said furthermore that Martin, when he finally saw the gun, said to him that now he (GZ) was going to die.

    The friend was brought in to testify by the prosecution to try to show that GZ was lying about the incident. i.e., Look! He told somebody something that wasn’t true! The only reason he didn’t tell the police that lie is that he realized it conflicted, or would conflict, with the evidence! But he wanted to tell that lie to the police!

    I think there’s an issue of whether GZ actually really said that to the friend (the friend, after all, could have misunderstood GZ) If GZ doesn’t testify this might not be clarified.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/7/2013 @ 8:02 pm

  1315. “But if Trayvon Martin was on the bottom and screaming and struggling and not begging for mercy but for help from strangers, and George Zimmerman wanted to use his gun out of malice, it is much less likely that George Ziommerman would have been able to, or wanted to, press that gun right up against Trayvon Martin’s clothes.”

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/7/2013 @ 1:27 pm

    That’s nothing but your imagination,Sammy. Fights don’t happen as neatly and predictably as your imagination.

    I didn’t say that it had to happen that way. I said that it was much less likely the gun would be pressed against the clothes of the person who was shot, if the person who was shot was on the bottom, than if the person who was shot was on the top. And that, I think, is incontrovertible.

    In other words:

    Case A (GZ on bottom) say 80% chance the gun would be right up against TM’s clothes.

    Case B (GZ on top) say 20% chance the gun would be right up against TM’s clothes.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/7/2013 @ 8:15 pm

  1316. A lot of people seem to be trying to walk this back and calm it down. Some of you may have seen this piece from Dan Abrams, but I think it’s worth a post on the thread:

    I drew a legal conclusion on “Good Morning America” Saturday that would have surprised the Dan Abrams who covered the George Zimmerman case leading up to, and shortly after, his arrest.
    Now that the prosecution’s case against Zimmerman is in, as a legal matter, I just don’t see how a jury convicts him of second degree murder or even manslaughter in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
    …..
    With all of this said, juries are notoriously impossible to predict and the deliberation process can take on a life of its own, but if they follow the letter of the law, it’s hard to see, based on everything we know now, how they find him guilty of either murder or even manslaughter.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-convicted-murder-manslaughter/story?id=19598422#.Udo8gTuOS5W

    Comment by elissa (95fb63) — 7/7/2013 @ 9:20 pm

  1317. The way I see it, if he’s convicted the judge would be duty-bound to set the verdict aside as unsupportable from the “evidence.”

    Zimmerman’s lawyers have pretty much proved his innocence using the prosecution’s own witnesses. That ought to be enough when the accused has a pre3sumption of innocence to start with.

    And if he’s convicted and the judge goes along, there ought to be riots.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 7/7/2013 @ 9:52 pm

  1318. I just don’t see how a jury convicts him of second degree murder or even manslaughter in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

    I’d be fully confident of that, except for the fact: Takes a bit of the reactions of Dana, a smattering of the sentiments of EPWJ, a dash of the emotions of Sammy Finkleman, mix all of that together with the thought processes of the flat-out liberal forumers here, and there’s no telling what jurors may or may not do.

    That one big pile of goo is a testament to logic and common sense sometimes being determined (and it shouldn’t be) in a way reminiscent of Bill Clinton asking what the meaning of “is” is.

    Comment by Mark (8f17bd) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:49 am

  1319. 1316-I’m still waiting for you to link to where I called Romney an empty suit, Kevin. Or were you just lying about that?

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:54 am

  1320. Just for a change of pace:

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/07/obamas-pal-erdogan-makes-racially-derogatory-remark.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+powerlineblog%2Flivefeed+%28Power+Line%29

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:21 am

  1321. How is more Obama bashing a change of pace?

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:23 am

  1322. The two minute hate, directed at Paula Deen, is somewhat missing here, at his favorite foreign leading,

    Comment by narciso (95a56c) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:09 am

  1323. 1191.Dana’s been saying a lot of things I’ve been thinking. The jury is going to struggle with this case and I’m not happy with the help they’re getting. It may seem cut and dried to a lot of people but what’s in front of the jury is an incoherent mess.

    The prosecution has the burden of proof so if they presented an incoherent mess the jury should acquit. There may be reasonable doubt about some defense claims but the defense is not obligated to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, the prosecution is. I don’t think they have come close, in fact I don’t think the prosecution has even clearly stated what they think their case is. As long as the jury understands who has the burden of proof I don’t think this is a hard case to decide.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:17 am

  1324. #1320, @4:23am Ian G. asked, How is more Obama bashing a change of pace?

    Comment much without clicking on the link? It’s Obama’s pal Recep doin’ the bashing.

    Here’s the 411 for you, Mr Smug.

    As Michael Rubin points out, Obama’s pal Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdoğan has obstructed US efforts to enforce sanctions against Iran, and he embraced Hamas and Hezbollah. He bitterly opposes Israel, just hates him some Jews and women (“I don’t believe in equality between men and women”) and apparently thinks blacks are too uppity as well.

    Now, it looks like Erdoğan is, on top of everything else, a racist. Rubin reports:

    Criticizing Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu, the leader of the center-left and secular Republican Peoples Party (CHP), Erdoğan declared, “Kılıçdaroğlu is striving every bit he can to raise himself from the level of a black person to the level of a white man.” The Turkish word—Zenci—Erdoğan used is often used in a derogatory way.

    Maybe there’s a non-racist explanation for this comment. If I were Obama, I’d be asking my pal Erdoğan for one.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:31 am

  1325. 1323-Obama bashing on a conservative website. Shocka.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:54 am

  1326. Racists defending racism, Shocka.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:57 am

  1327. “How is more Obama bashing a change of pace?”"1323-Obama bashing on a conservative website. Shocka.

    My lord you are a dense and clueless little minion with your pathetic need to defend your precious leader. READ THE STORY.

    Comment by Jack Klompus (ddf2d4) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:09 am

  1328. Let me clarify, bashing Obama because of another world leader’s racism seems ridiculously obtuse… par for the course, boys.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:09 am

  1329. Doubling down isn’t clarity, it’s the obtuse arrogance of a ignorant jerk.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:23 am

  1330. Tye’s act got tyred a looooong time ago.

    Comment by JD (362014) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:29 am

  1331. Toonces, I’m just curious why we are bashing the president because another world leader is racist. Should Obama be held accountable for the views of other world leaders, retroactively? It is a legitimate question, sir. Would you like to answer it?

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:41 am

  1332. Who is this “we” you speak of, Tye? Someone posted a link, and it appears to have your panties in a bunch. Next time you and yours call someone racists because someone else said something not objectively racist, we will remind you of your new nuanced standard. No we won’t, because you were banned, and are now flaunting the site rules. For now.

    Comment by JD (fdc846) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:50 am

  1333. I wasn’t banned. I have no idea what you’re talking about or why you are calling me Tye, toonces.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:55 am

  1334. Right.

    Comment by JD (fdc846) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:57 am

  1335. The sadder fact is that “zenci” is probably the mildest term of reference for a black person, in the Ottoman region. There is no word for a dark person person without an insulting connotation. To be dark is to be inferior. For more deleiberate crudeness, dog is understood to mean black man. N***er is arap — Arab — whether of African or actual Arab descent. And Erdocan’s entire comment left no doubt whatsoever how he intended it.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:18 am

  1336. 1327. Criticizing the Gay Prostitute Atheist POTUS because he lusts after the Marxist-Islamist-Fascist synergies is Ok I hope.

    Anyway I’m not giving it up.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:48 am

  1337. Erdoğan’s thinking, articulated and captured so openly in this coarse statement is shocking. It is disrespectful both to our American values and to the President of the United States. That a foreign “leader” from Turkey, which is supposed to be one of our friends and allies would feel so comfortable spouting this stuff shows how far the prestige of the United States has fallen and how little respect our government and president have in that part of the world these days. One would think that sort of thing might be the larger factor of concern for Mr. IanG. Instead he trolls conservative websites and looks for boogers under chairs.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 8:05 am

  1338. The very realistic Dana has it right:

    Had he actually followed the dispatcher’s advice, which was very similar to what The Dana’s advice would have been, he wouldn’t be on trial, and he wouldn’t be facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind bars. Even if he is acquitted, his life will probably have been ruined. He has made himself virtually unemployable.

    I very much hope that you don’t think that Mr Zimmerman took a wise decision to continue to follow Mr Martin.

    Reading through this thread, Ropelight, and a few others have made a political mockery of this trial, especially coming down on Dana for his crucial statement of fact.

    Now I am not saying that Ropelight has not supplied some significant facts from the proceedings of the trial, but it is quite clear that he had made up his mind from the start, thus embarking in an anti-TrayMar/pro-GZ screed.

    It’s been enough to discredit Ropelight from being an unbiased commenter, you know, the FoxNews approach to reporting.

    Getting back to Dana, he has been hotly criticized on here for making the quoted remark. But he is correct: There would have been no confrontation had Zimmerman not decided to play cop.

    That said, it does appear to me thus far that Zimmerman had to stand his ground in self-defence.

    It will be most interesting to see,after all the testimony, how the Judge charges the jury, whether some charge might be considered for Zimmerman’s aggressive stalking of Trayvon. I suspect we can all agree that at least this charge is true.

    Comment by Gramps2 (1ce2f4) — 7/8/2013 @ 8:22 am

  1339. Uh, no we cannot “all” agree Zim was stalking. That’s already been covered pretty thoroughly here but of course you already know that if, as you say, you have read through the thread.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 8:27 am

  1340. There would have been no confrontation had TM not decided to coldcock GZ either, PERRY.

    whether some charge might be considered for Zimmerman’s aggressive stalking of Trayvon. I suspect we can all agree that at least this charge is true.

    Abject nonsense, PERRY. Stalking has a legal definition, supplied previously, that this scenario does not come close to. So, you may suspect that your imaginary jury charge is true, but that does not make it so.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/8/2013 @ 8:29 am

  1341. Gramps/Perry, the idea that following Martin was “stalking” is just stupid nonsense. It didn’t meet the elements of that offense either.

    And the Fox News bashing? Lame as usual.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 8:53 am

  1342. The prosecution has the burden of proof so if they presented an incoherent mess the jury should acquit.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (d50741) — 7/8/2013

    Yup. Simple as that. It’s no mess at all, really. There’s no case to convict. The jury has it easy.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/8/2013 @ 9:07 am

  1343. Gramps2 is pissed I yanked his mask down and ID’ed him as Perry, the despicable fascist thug, who repeatedly threatened to inform on a school teacher to his employers for posting opinions on Dana’s First Street Journal site which were at odds with the official leftist positions enunciated by the Teacher’s Union.

    After a trial suspension, Perry continued to threaten the commenter and was banned for life at Dana’s site. Perry then changed his IP address and reappeared here and there as Gramps2 and as Rebus.

    He’s as low, mean, and devoid of integrity as any cheap strong-arm street thug. And, he’s been banned here as well. He’s an old, bitter, self-indulgent, bigot so desperate for attention that he’s willing to make a ridiculous farce of himself in order to provoke a response.

    I hope he likes this one, he’s earned it several times over.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 9:38 am

  1344. Disgusting, Ropelight.

    That fascist thugs like that call themselves liberals is truly a farce. Bigot sounds like exactly the right term.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/8/2013 @ 9:41 am

  1345. But Mr. Shearer also said at — 7/8/2013 @ 5:17 am
    As long as the jury understands who has the burden of proof I don’t think this is a hard case to decide.

    That is a big “as long as”.

    As I said before, others have pointed out there is no case and a directed verdict was appropriate.
    The jury has not had a chance to read here or at Legal Insurrection, and may still be assuming that since they were asked to be a jury in a trial, there must be issues at stake that they need to decide on. Once put into that misleading perspective, hard to say.

    Perhaps this will call for a new movie “Six Angry Women”.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/8/2013 @ 10:21 am

  1346. Corrcetion to 1119: (7/5/2013 @ 3:50 pm)

    “The CBS Evening News opened today with the George Zimmerman case. It was sort of “balanced” Dueling wtnesses.

    The last witness for the prosecution was Trayvoon Martin’s mother, who said it was her son calling for help. She was kind of rigid or determined in saying that.

    The first witness for the defense was George Zimmerman’s mother who said it was her son on the 911 tape. Are you sure, she was asked. Because it is my son, she answered.”

    That’s what I thought I heard of the CBS Evening News.

    But actually, as I found out from the next day’s newspapers, the testimony was almost 8 hours apart, and Trayvon Martin’s mother was not the last witness for the prosecution. That was the Shipping Bao, the medical examiner.

    There were two people from each family claiming the voice was screaming help was their family member.

    The other person from George Zimmerman’s family was JOrge Meza who said he first heard it on a TV news program when he didn’t even know what the segment was about. The other person from Trayvon MArtins family was his older brother, Jahvaris Fulton who said he didn’t immediately think it was him.

    I don’t think anybody in the general public has heard a tape of the voice of Trayvon Martin so we don’t even know what his accent was.

    Most of the time between them was taken up by legal arguments.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (43c045) —

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/8/2013 @ 10:47 am

  1347. There is tape of Travyon Martin’s voice.

    The ABC segment including their expert’s opinion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia8Pe7XBZ-0

    Travyon’s voice on repeat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHdwSCy4zGo

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/8/2013 @ 11:01 am

  1348. That story is from June 7 this year. Till then it had not been heard. The voice comes from Trayvon Martin’s cell phone. The defense said the prosecution had tried to hide that from them.

    ABC obtained it the recording exclusively (was leaked it.)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/8/2013 @ 11:20 am

  1349. 1336. Good points. The Won has truly united people everywhere, the scourge of Gaia, in detesting his doucheness, first among peers.

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/8/2013 @ 11:22 am

  1350. Comment by Mark (8f17bd) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:49 am

    …a dash of the emotions of Sammy Finkleman… and there’s no telling what jurors may or may not do.

    That’s not logical.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/8/2013 @ 11:22 am

  1351. It’s shameful how much evidence the prosecution apparently played games with sharing. There were too many ambushes, such as excluding their own investigator’s answer that he trusted George’s account (which apparently was a valid objection, but had not been properly preserved).

    In a fair courtroom, the judge would put an end to that quickly. Instead, her reactions have encouraged it. It’s set this up to be much worse. I suspect the idea is to get George convicted to avoid riots, but because there is no case, pretending there is a case has set us up for the appearance of an injustice.

    For all the BS the state has put George through despite not having a case, they really should put he and his family into witness protection and let him have a life worth living. Of course they will not.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/8/2013 @ 11:24 am

  1352. Guess Ms. Corey has seen better days:

    http://minx.cc/?post=341490

    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 7/8/2013 @ 11:32 am

  1353. pretending there is a case has set us up for the appearance of an injustice.

    Why the word “appearance”?

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:10 pm

  1354. This is for tifosa and EPWJ:

    1. We have an eye witness who saw one person raining punches down onto the other person.

    2. By tifosa’s own admission, TM didn’t have a scratch on him, other than a gunshot wound, so clearly he wasn’t receiving those punches.

    3. We have pictures of GZ with a badly bloodied nose and cuts on the back of his head, so clearly he was on the receiving end of those punches.

    If TM wasn’t the guy on top raining punches down, why doesn’t he have a mark on him?

    Comment by Chuck Bartowski (7c7e89) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:20 pm

  1355. Sammy, you’re dead wrong about the sequence of the prosecution’s witnesses. Sybrina Fulton, TraMar’s birth mother, (he was raised by his step-mother who the prosecution strangely did not call to testify) was followed on the stand by the incompetent and clearly biased Medical Examiner, Shiping Bao, who performed the autopsy on TraMar.

    Which occasioned my response to Patterico #1240, 7/7 @11:45am on the issue of recency.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:43 pm

  1356. Uh, no we cannot “all” agree Zim was stalking. That’s already been covered pretty thoroughly here but of course you already know that if, as you say, you have read through the thread.

    Perhaps, Elissa, you have generated a new definition of stalking. Zimmerman disobeyed the dispatcher’s order to cease. Knowing that Trayvon’s behavior at that time was nothing more than talking on a cell-phone, what was Zimmerman’s justification for, yes, stalking Trayvon? Without Zimmerman’s aggressive behavior, there would have been no incident whatsoever, obviously.

    Gramps2 is pissed I yanked his mask down and ID’ed him as Perry, the despicable fascist thug, ….

    Ropelight, you demean yourself with your continuously one-sided and untruthful rant. And the worst thing for you, your vendetta has gotten you absolutely nowhere, which really grinds on you, right? Neither do you know who you are talking to, nor do you have a sense of balance necessary for significant credibility.

    Comment by Gramps2 (1ce2f4) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:52 pm

  1357. Parade of defense witnesses today talking about how great a guy Zimmerman is and how they’ve tried to help him.

    Makes you wonder why the state didn’t have a parade of character witnesses for Martin.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:58 pm

  1358. Gramps2, continues his knack for forwarding utter falsehoods. He says above “Zimmerman disobeyed the dispatcher’s order to cease.”

    Absolutely incorrect:

    Who the aggressor was that fateful night is the central — and most unanswerable — question of the case. Those who fault Zimmerman have latched on to this back-and-forth with Sean Noffke, the operator, as proof that Zimmerman defied a direct police order.

    Not so. Noffke testified on the first day of the jury trial that it is dispatchers’ policy not to give orders to callers. “We’re directly liable if we give a direct order,” he explained. “We always try to give general basic . . . not commands, just suggestions.” So, “We don’t need you to do that” is different than a more direct “Don’t do that.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-killing-of-trayvon-martin/2013/07/03/0d76c176-e368-11e2-80eb-3145e2994a55_story.html

    Seems to me Gramps2, like his beloved MSNBC, likes to lie about this case because they wish to foster racial resentment … and to make themselves feel all “superior.”

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:00 pm

  1359. Perhaps TRaMar’s friends and potential character witnesses all behaved like Rachel and swore like sailors, daley. Could have been sort of problematic. You know?

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:03 pm

  1360. Gramps2/Perry writes:

    Reading through this thread, Ropelight, and a few others have made a political mockery of this trial

    LMAO. Sorry, but no one has more of a mockery of this whole situation than “progressives” like you and the idiots at outlets like MSNBC. Keep fostering racial hatred, Gramps, while you enjoy your little lily-white hamlet. Hypocrite.

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:05 pm

  1361. Gramps2, I was raised to be respectful of my elders , to value their life experiences, to tread softly on their feelings, and to try to ignore their flights from reality. Your posts here are making that very, very difficult.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:08 pm

  1362. Perry, there was no order from the dispatcher for GZ to disobey, and sneaking around the neighborhood in the rain isn’t just talking on the cell phone.

    TraMar’s overtly aggressive behavior, provocatively approaching GZ in his vehicle while he was on the phone to the police, indicates it was TraMar doing the stalking. Moreover, if TraMar hadn’t initiated the physical assault on GZ he’d likely still be using drugs, burglarizing homes, and punching out elderly homeless men today.

    As for the balance of your idiot comment, the trial is in progress, TraMar’s father is testifying and I want to hear what he has to say. So, first things first, I’ll get back to you.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:13 pm

  1363. Perhaps, Elissa, you have generated a new definition of stalking.

    The entire text of the stalking statute was posted above, PERRY.

    Comment by JD (d6cbd8) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:13 pm

  1364. Gramps/Perry, you are making stuff up. The dispatcher didn’t and can’t “order” anyone anything. And that’s not the legal definition of any criminal “stalking” statute.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:13 pm

  1365. Zimmerman disobeyed the dispatcher’s order to cease.

    There was no such order given. The dispatcher’s testimony refutes your lie.

    Comment by JD (d6cbd8) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:14 pm

  1366. Hube, see Perry’s comment #1337, 7/8/13 @8:22am and my response to him #1342, @9:07am.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:18 pm

  1367. 1364-The article actually suggests that the dispatcher was essentially giving a cease order without actually ordering it. The article mentions that the dispatchers are liable for direct orders. The dispatcher, therefore, was likely instructed to use qualifying language in his directions.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:20 pm

  1368. Tye – don’t you tire of spinning your failed narrative?

    Comment by JD (d6cbd8) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:22 pm

  1369. “The article actually suggests that the dispatcher was essentially giving a cease order without actually ordering it.”

    And this makes sense to you, Ian G.? I shouldn’t be surprised.

    Dispatchers have no power to “order” anything and are instructed not to.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:24 pm

  1370. A double secret noncease cease order.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:25 pm

  1371. 1367-Do you ring a bell every time type “failed narrative”? If so, is it broken yet?

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:27 pm

  1372. 1368-Are we now quibbling over semantics? Order, direction, suggestion…

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:28 pm

  1373. Ian G., evidently you are quibbling over semantics. You were the clown that wrote: “The article actually suggests that the dispatcher was essentially giving a cease order without actually ordering it.”

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:28 pm

  1374. Hi rope — yeah, I saw it. Quoted from it on my second comment above. :-)

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:30 pm

  1375. So, having been instructed not to give orders, dispatchers give orders using language sufficiently ambiguous to avoid liability in case anyone mistakes their directions for suggestions or instructions.

    That about cover it?

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:30 pm

  1376. 1372- Go read the link before you comment on it and prove to us that you don’t know how to mine information from a source.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:30 pm

  1377. Dustin wrote:

    For all the BS the state has put George through despite not having a case, they really should put he and his family into witness protection and let him have a life worth living. Of course they will not.

    He would need that.

    Even if he is acquitted — something which I think will happen, but I would never, ever say that I know, in advance, what a jury will do — his life is pretty much ruined. He has made himself unemployable; what reasonable company, knowing that they have black customers as well as white ones, is going to want Mr Zimmerman on the payroll, and take the risk of losing a significant amount of business? A sympathetic businessman might well feel a great deal for Mr Zimmerman, and very much hope that he finds a good job . . . with somebody else.

    In business, in the end, the only thing that matters is the bottom line. We hire employees to produce things for our companies, with which to make a profit. If an employee continually causes losses, because he is unproductive, because he damaged equipment, because he is unskilled, we get rid of that employee; every conservative here can understand that logic. By the same token, if a particular employee causes us losses by running off customers — a really bad salesman would be a good example — we get rid of that employee.

    Well, in very ethnically diverse Florida, it’s difficult for me to see Mr Zimmerman not running off customers, if the customers find out that he was hired at a particular company; it’s the same business reasoning that cost Paula Dean her jobs.

    If Mr Zimmerman is exonerated, he will need to move out of Florida, and change his identity and appearance, or he may never work again.

    Comment by The businessman Dana (3e4784) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:30 pm

  1378. Ian: So, in a trial where actual language matters, you’d fault Zimmerman for not recognizing a “non-order order?”

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:32 pm

  1379. Hube, just thought you might have something personal to add and wanted to offer you an invitation. Your call.

    And, thanks for the greeting, and a big warm hello to you.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:34 pm

  1380. 1374-Yep. CYA.

    At the very least the dispatcher is not encouraging GZ to follow TM.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:35 pm

  1381. Elissa, it seems that you have difficulty distinguishing between “flights from reality” and disagreements. For you to say that Zimmerman’s actions were not stalking, then will you accept the word “aggressive”. And try to put your shoe on the other foot.

    There is clearly no doubt in my mind that the attitude of the Right, as for example in this particular trial, is mixed up with and clouded by politics and ideology. Take Hube’s latest comment as one piece of evidence. Not surprising these days though, as even the Republican majority on the SCOTUS plays the same ideological games all too often.

    Comment by Gramps2 (f29a4f) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:35 pm

  1382. IanG is Tye, people. Lets not continue the charade that it is anything other than a banned troll.

    Comment by JD (d6cbd8) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:37 pm

  1383. Perry and Tye seem to have synched their cycles too. Don’t engage them, just stand upwind of them.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:38 pm

  1384. The Dana,

    Thank you for explaining Econ 101 to us.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:39 pm

  1385. For you to say that Zimmerman’s actions were not stalking, then will you accept the word “aggressive”

    No. There is no evidence he attempted to initiate contact.

    Comment by JD (d6cbd8) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:39 pm

  1386. 1381-Prove it, toonces.

    Comment by Ian G. (bd7302) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:40 pm

  1387. is mixed up with and clouded by politics and ideology

    The only reason there is a trial is because of leftist identity politics and the perpetual grievance industry.

    Comment by JD (d6cbd8) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:41 pm

  1388. Gramps, explain this:

    Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.

    Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything okay?

    Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?

    Dispatcher: Yeah we’ve got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

    Zimmerman: Okay. These a—— they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

    Dispatcher: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

    Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. S— he’s running.

    Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

    Zimmerman: (Car door chimes, wind noises) Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

    Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?

    Zimmerman: (Wind noises in the background) The back entrance…f—- [unintelligible]

    Dispatcher: Are you following him?

    Zimmerman: Yeah

    Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.

    Legal Insurrection went over this. Given the tape, Zimmerman was in his car and he starts questioning Trayvon’s behavior: Trayvon is coming towards Zimmerman, he is checking out Zimmerman. Zimmerman wants confirmation that the police are on the way.

    Zimmerman gets out of his car because he is prompted by the dispatcher. As Hube states, the dispatcher then suggests that Zimmerman does not have to follow Trayvon because dispatchers can be held liable. In the police walkthrough (this was within days of the incident), George says the same thing: he parked his truck and got out to get a clear view of wear Trayvon was.

    In the remainder of the call (Google results for the transcript), George is trying to give directions of where Trayvon went. He is absolutely consistent: he cannot give an address because is in on the cut-through (his words) which faces the backs of the homes. He made this same statement to police on the walkthough. At this point, Zimmerman still feels some suspense as he doesn’t want to give out his address in case Trayvon is hiding and can hear him. Again, seems Zimmerman is a little worried, no? While George is walking back to his truck, Trayvon confronts him at the T.

    Given your logic, if Zimmerman had not gone to the store that day, this would not have happened. If the dispatcher didn’t ask the direction (prompting Zimmerman out of his car), this would not have happened. If Zimmerman was not walking through the cut-through, Trayvon could not have confronted him. There are a lot of “what-ifs” we can postulate. It still does not explain why Trayvon confronted Zimmerman and slammed his head into the concrete.

    Why doesn’t your confrontation logic apply to Trayvon? How about this: if you are being followed and are scared, call the police, run home, stay home, and do not confront and physically assault the person you claim to be so fearful of.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:42 pm

  1389. You are too cowardly to admit it, Tye. And too dishonest. Apparently calling me a supercat is an insult?

    Comment by JD (c533eb) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:43 pm

  1390. Evidently to the trolls, making up facts and law, as they have done in this thread, is not something that they do because of their ideology. Which must mean its just natural to them.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:46 pm

  1391. If Nicole Brown had never dated OJ Simpson, it never would have led to marriage, which would never have led to divorce, which would never have left OJ feeling jealous after the divorce.
    And if Ron Goldman had never returned Nicole’s sunglasses to her that fateful night, he never would have been ambushed by a jealous, raging OJ.

    Obviously, both Ron and Nicole are to blame for making OJ angry. Or whatever.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:46 pm

  1392. ratbeach, you need to post the transcript starting earlier, which would give a different flavor to the emerging confrontation than that which you wish to convey.

    Comment by Gramps2 (f29a4f) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:53 pm

  1393. Gramps is like the prosecutor who keeps “repeating” Zimmerman’s words at a shout … even though Zimmerman didn’t shout them originally.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:54 pm

  1394. Gramps, how about you show me the part in the transcript you are referring to?

    Here, I even found a transcript for you to use: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/326700/full-transcript-zimmerman.pdf

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:56 pm

  1395. Perry just makes shlt up, SPQR. It is what they do. They can’t make their case with the actual facts, so they create an alternate reality where their facty facts support their narrative.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:56 pm

  1396. gramps2/Perry,

    Why do you hate white hispanics, so much ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:56 pm

  1397. JD, almost all of the pro-conviction commentators make up stuff to support their argument.

    Which pretty much destroys their arguments in and of themselves.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:57 pm

  1398. Gramps2 – You shouldn’t let your judgement get so clouded up by politics and ideology and just learn to look at situations with an open mind instead. You seem to come here and comment with predetermined conclusions and bias.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:58 pm

  1399. Thanks, ratbeach, for making my point about Zimmerman’s aggression. For example:

    Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away.

    So Zimmerman assigns himself to be cop, judge, and jury, but where is his evidence, that he is black?

    Another example:

    Dispatcher: Are you following him?
    Zimmerman: Yeah
    Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
    Zimmerman: Ok

    I think this is indicative of Zimmerman’s aggression, there for the jury to make an assessment.

    Having the loaded and ready to fire gun likely gave Zimmerman courage which he might otherwise not have had, and Trayvon would still be alive.

    After the killing, Zimmerman was calm. That says something as well about his state of mind, hardly acknowledging that he had just shot and killed a person.

    Comment by Gramps2 (f29a4f) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:19 pm

  1400. Comment by Gramps2 (f29a4f) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:19 pm

    After the killing, Zimmerman was calm.

    Zimmerman wasn’t calm. He was pacing around. Obviously greatly disturbed at what he had done.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:31 pm

  1401. If many on the left, egged on by the White House and the usual race baiters had not tried to make this poor flawed and floundering teen a cause célèbre none of us would be arguing about it at Patterico’s Pontifications and elsewhere today– and George Zimmerman would never have been charged and put on trial in the first place and had his life ruined. If various segments of the media had done their jobs and asked even a few neutral and honest questions and done some unbiased analysis from day one about both of the people involved, the contradictions and holes in the prosecution’s “case” would not be such a shock to the likes of Dan Abrams and others as they apparently are.

    This case should never have been a political, racial, or career enhancement football. The trial so far has shown that it’s way past time to let those tired old false original narratives go and let the truth shine through.

    My respect and admiration for Jeralyn over at TalkLeft is considerable. She has been trying for a year to help the left see the reality of the case, and to understand that that compounding his tragic end, it was Martin who was the critical aggressor.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:33 pm

  1402. There is narrative, then there is fact;

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerman-trial-day-10-mid-day-vietnam-combat-medic-identifies-zimmerman-as-screamer/#comments

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:34 pm

  1403. “These assholes always get away.” can also be read to be an acceptance of an unliked reality. That Z wants to be judge, jury, and executioner is something you’re inferring, not something that’s implied.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:35 pm

  1404. Gramps2/Perry,

    Let’s face it, you’re an eighty year old retired white man who lives on a taxpayer-funded pension in a tax-and-spend blue state.
    What may appear to you to be fierce aggression in language, is merely the rhthym of everyday language in a tense situation in 2012. Maybe it is your inherent fear of people of color, that you instinctively interpret “aggression!” in George Zimmerman’s words.
    That kind of foul language is inappropriate for having tea with your Aunt Margaret at a cute little cafe, but it is a fact of life that’s how a great number of wonderful law-abiding people speak when they’re stressed out.

    Zimmerman was obviously trying to ensure that a police officer was on his way. If Zimmerman were planning to kill Martin, then why would he have called the police ahead of time, and attempted to give them instructions where to find him ?

    Perry, you seem to be more upset by foul language than you are the fact that TraMar started pounding Zimmerman MMA style.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:35 pm

  1405. Gramps2,

    Is it aggressive or hostile for VP Biden to call a citizen a smartass because he asked Biden to lower our taxes? Or would you say Biden, like Zimmerman, used profanity to describe something they thought was objectionable?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:41 pm

  1406. This was the turning point: (See the line that is BOLD and in italics. The times are the time into the telephone call.

    Dispatcher: All Right. Where are you going to meet with them at?

    Zimmerman: Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the Clubb House and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left (stress on left) and then they go past the mailboxes. You’ll see my truck. [3:10]

    Dispatcher: All Right, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

    Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

    Dispatcher: OK. Do you live in the area?

    Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah, I live here.

    Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?

    Zimmerman: It’s a home. It’s One nine five zero [1950] – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it all out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

    Dispatcher: OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42 or 7:13:12 pm]

    Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

    [At 7:13:12 dispatcher keys in: COMPL WILL 1056 AT MAILBOXES OF COMPLEX]

    Dispatcher: All Right, George. I’ll let them know you’ll meet them around there, OK?

    Zimmerman: Actually, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

    Dispatcher: OK, yeah, that’s no problem.

    [At 7:13:41 dispatcher keys in: COMPL NOW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056]

    Zimmerman: You need my number, or you’ve got it?

    Dispatcher: Yeah, I’ve got it. It’s 435-2400. (zero-zero)

    Zimmerman: Yeah, you got it.

    Dispatcher: OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]

    Zimmerman: Thanks.

    Dispatcher: You’re welcome. [4:06]

    Call ends 4:07 Time is 7:13:41.

    In no more than 3 1/2 minutes, Travon Martin will be shot dead, after a struggle.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:41 pm

  1407. There is clearly no doubt in my mind that the attitude of the Right, as for example in this particular trial, is mixed up with and clouded by politics and ideology. Take Hube’s latest comment as one piece of evidence.

    This is the typical, and tiresome, Gramps M.O. Always assigning to others what he himself displays in abundance. He does this most especially after being proven a liar and/or exaggerator. For example:

    I think this is indicative of Zimmerman’s aggression, there for the jury to make an assessment.

    Indeed, you resort to this narrative after your comment about Zimmerman being ordered not follow Martin was proved false.

    God you’re thick.

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  1408. 1118. 1124 1142.

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:29 pm

    Sammy, destruction is not the same thing as altered function/size.

    The damage is the direction of losing fear and anger.

    « When the amygdalae are destroyed, adult animals become extremely tame, and they also interact with their fellows a great deal more – it is as if
    their fear and inhibitions have been removed. Similar changes occur in the rare condition Urbach-Wiethe disease, in which the human amygdalae progressively degenerate. These patients lose the ability to experience
    anger and fear, and even the ability to recognize the emotional importance of facial expressions in others… » \\- Beyond the Zonules of Zinn by
    David Bainbridge (Harvard University Press, 2008) bottom of page 282 and top of page 283.

    « ….my medial lobes (which sit on either side of the head, near the ears, and include the hippocampus and the amygdala, all of which are
    crucial to memory) … » – Can’t Remember What I Forgot: The Good News

    Marijuana doesn’t cause someone to become wild. the defense wasn’t trying to claim that either but only that the ME was contrradicting himself.
    From the Front Lines of Memory Research by Sue Halpern (Harmony Books,
    2008) page 37.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:44 pm

  1409. People like Gramps/Perry simply have no answer to instances like MSNBC and other outlets selectively editing audio, using pictures of each combatant which suit their narrative, and using “white” to describe an Hispanic when they would never, ever use that addition in any other instance (unless it was another instance of a scuffle with a black person).

    It is the “progressives” which have made this all about race. Period. End of story. They simply need to exercise their need to feel superior to everyone else, and to make the narrative the story, not the facts.

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:47 pm

  1410. 1388-No, I’m not insulting you toonces, I’m just not using your screen name (because you are not addressing me by mine).

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:57 pm

  1411. After the killing, Zimmerman was calm. That says something as well about his state of mind, hardly acknowledging that he had just shot and killed a person.

    You are just a brazen liar Perry.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 2:57 pm

  1412. For more details;

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/7/8/63129/37747/crimenews/Zimmerman-Trial-Defense-Evidence-Issues

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:05 pm

  1413. You are just a brazen liar Perry.

    Indeed he is!

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:06 pm

  1414. narciso, that’s an interesting post by Jeralyn as it shows that Zimmerman’s observation to the dispatcher that Martin appeared to be on drugs had some foundation in fact.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:12 pm

  1415. As elissa has pointed out, she has been eminently fair, willing to root out the facts, when others take the ‘talking points’ in stride,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:16 pm

  1416. 1388- I’m too cowardly and dishonest to admit to something that is not true?

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:25 pm

  1417. narciso, having met Jeralyn, I was only mildly surprised by her discussion of the Zimmerman trial. She’s pretty much Left wing but at times she is capable of honest discussion. Sometimes she falls short of that however.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:36 pm

  1418. SPQR – Tye has many tells

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:39 pm

  1419. JD, I know. Some carefully crafted searches upon the comment stream have been very amusing to me….

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:43 pm

  1420. Tye, it’s nice that you finally decided to drop in for a visit. Since the Obama scandals have broken open during the past couple of months, there’s been a scarcity of you left wingers here to defend The One.
    I imagine that has something to do with the fact that you know in your hearts that you can’t defend the indefensible.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:45 pm

  1421. #1355, Perry wrote:

    Ropelight, you demean yourself with your continuously one-sided and untruthful rant. And the worst thing for you, your vendetta has gotten you absolutely nowhere, which really grinds on you, right? Neither do you know who you are talking to, nor do you have a sense of balance necessary for significant credibility.

    I told him I’d respond after the trial testimony.

    No, Perry, it’s your outright lies that demean you, you’ve been caught over and over again manufacturing falsehoods to support your insane drivel.

    Your self-serving lies along with your deceptive name changes and new IP address to get around being identified as Perry/Wagonwheel/Gramps2/Rebus mark you out as a repeat offender and a serial fraud. That’s more than untruthful, more than pretense, more than a masquerade, it’s a cheap and dishonest indictment of your near total lack of personal and intellectual integrity.

    Next you accuse me of a vendetta. How Italian of you. If refusing to pretend you aren’t the low-brow fool and dishonest two-faced halfwit I know you to be constitutes a vendetta, then go right ahead and continue to sully yourself with absurd accusations. Like the time you accused me of hiring a detective agency to uncover your identity, what a hoot, you pathetic ninny.

    And, yes, I’ve got a pretty good idea of who I’m talking to. Are you going to pretend you’re connected, that you’re going to send Guido and the boys around to my place of business to explain what a pity it would be if I had a little accident?

    Or that my grandchildren would be so very sad to see me in the hospital? Maybe I should check under my car before I start the engine. If that’s the threat you’re sending, Tinkerbell, you should be ashamed of yourself, you low down belly crawlin’ yellow dog.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:55 pm

  1422. Don’t forget that Zimmerman sued NBC for defamation after the network was caught airing the altered/doctored 911 tape. Tonight Brian Williams “reminded” viewers of this. I think the peacock may be getting a little nervous.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:55 pm

  1423. Sammy, heavy, chronic MJ use is associated with development of paranoia, especially in teens.

    http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/06/why-pot-smokers-are-paranoid/

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 7/8/2013 @ 3:57 pm

  1424. I defended a man who killed two people, with embellishments, in a dissosiactive state brought on by smoking marijuana and drinking alcohol. Dexomorphan abuse also is linked to dissociative state. So knock it off, Sammy. Nobody, including you, knows what psychoactives do to each and every individual who abuses them.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:02 pm

  1425. *dissociative state*

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:04 pm

  1426. If Mr Zimmerman is exonerated, he will need to move out of Florida, and change his identity and appearance, or he may never work again.

    Comment by The businessman Dana (3e4784) — 7/8/2013 @ 1:30 pm

    Of course, he may not need a job. His honest-to-God damages from what NBC did to him are considerable. I don’t know that he has a strong case against Florida because the judge didn’t throw out the case, but it’s worth a shot (and that’s an area I am seriously ignorant of).

    Christoph, the reason I said the appearance of an injustice is that this is exactly what the problem really is for me. Society can see that our justice system is a kangaroo court. There have been a number of cases lately that have given many that impression. What happens to a society when good people cannot have faith in the justice system, for justice they feel must be done? Bad things happen. I believe that Zimmerman is getting his day in court, and though the judge is a hack, I believe he will get the result he is entitled to (an acquittal). Thus, if that happens, not much of an injustice, but still the appearance of a system that does not administer justice.

    Comment by Dustin (0960a8) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:08 pm

  1427. Nobody is calling them Obama scandals except you and the rest of the RWM (right wing media).

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:16 pm

  1428. Double Heh.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:21 pm

  1429. Tye,

    So these scandals that are happening by the hands of people appointed by Obama, are not “Obama scandals” ?

    Benghazi, I.R.S., NSA, ObamaCare imploding, and even Obama’s favored horses in the middle east who are going crazy…none of that bears any responsibility of the President who was going to stop the rise of the oceans ?

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:24 pm

  1430. 1428-I don’t want to speak for someone else so I won’t answer those questions.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:25 pm

  1431. “Nobody is calling them Obama scandals except you and the rest of the RWM (right wing media).

    Brazenly dishonest statement of course, since there are plenty of left wing media that have identified Obama’s actions as scandals.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:29 pm

  1432. Holy crap. 1400 comments!

    Comment by Dustin (0960a8) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:31 pm

  1433. Tye, we know you’re disappointed in Obama.
    You thought this guy was The One. Joe Biden said he was clean and articulate, but now it it revealed he is actually just corrupt and he stumbles terribly without his teleprompter to tell him what to say.

    Hopefully, this will be a teachable moment for you. Obama is a salesman, and what he was selling was one of those “lose 50 lbs in 3 days !” wonder drugs.

    Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:37 pm

  1434. 1430-So the left wing media is blaming Obama for this? Isn’t Obama a democrat? Are you insane?

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:42 pm

  1435. Here’s how the 911 call really went:
    ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

    OFFICER: Okay, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?

    ZIMMERMAN: He looks black.
    ++++++

    Here’s how NBC said the 911 call went down:
    ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black.

    OOPs. I don’t suppose the fact that the medical examiner found and just testified that Trayvon actually did have marijuana in his system had a thing to do with Brian Williams deciding to mention the defamation law suit on the news this evening. Yeah it sure looks like NBC edited some pretty important pieces out of that 911 call in order to make Zim appear all racisty. When the parties settle that suit out of court it should pay for a few hours of Zim’s expenses.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:50 pm

  1436. Tye – that was a pathetic SQUIRREL, even by your standards.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/8/2013 @ 4:56 pm

  1437. link at 1422:

    When rats were given a drug that enhanced cannabinoid-receptor activity, …

    Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/06/why-pot-smokers-are-paranoid/#ixzz2YVBKeh6a

    That drug was not marijuana, I hope you noticed.

    Marijuana is supposed to do the opposite.

    I don’t know whats’s going on here but it sounds like a big scientific fraud, like that low fat diets are the way to lose weight.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:05 pm

  1438. Neither do you know who you are talking to, nor do you have a sense of balance necessary for significant credibility.

    Comment by Gramps2 (1ce2f4) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:52 pm

    This is a comment directly from “The Onion” isn’t it?

    Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:06 pm

  1439. Problem with italics. Anyway getting “stoned” would seem to be consistent with making the amygdala=la less active.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:06 pm

  1440. Yeah, that’s a stupid study but not because of the synthetic canabioid. All the morons did was mess with the Pavlovian fear response. Lots of drugs do that.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:10 pm

  1441. Dustin wrote:

    Of course, he may not need a job. His honest-to-God damages from what NBC did to him are considerable. I don’t know that he has a strong case against Florida because the judge didn’t throw out the case, but it’s worth a shot (and that’s an area I am seriously ignorant of).

    NBC denies Mr Zimmerman’s accusations, of course, and has plenty of good lawyers. If Mr Zimmerman is convicted, his lawsuit against NBC won’t matter, and if he is acquitted he’ll have a more difficult time proving demonstrable harm.

    Of course, NBC might settle; we can’t know in advance.

    Christoph, the reason I said the appearance of an injustice is that this is exactly what the problem really is for me. Society can see that our justice system is a kangaroo court. There have been a number of cases lately that have given many that impression. What happens to a society when good people cannot have faith in the justice system, for justice they feel must be done? Bad things happen. I believe that Zimmerman is getting his day in court, and though the judge is a hack, I believe he will get the result he is entitled to (an acquittal). Thus, if that happens, not much of an injustice, but still the appearance of a system that does not administer justice.

    This really is a huge problem; regardless of the outcome, there will be a significant segment of the population who believe that justice was not done, either that Mr Zimmerman was unjustly railroaded, or Mr Zimmerman got away with murder.

    My fear on this is that Mr Zimmerman will be acquitted on all charges in the trial, and then Eric Holder will step in and have him charged in federal court with infringing on Mr Martin’s civil rights. Legally, that’s not double jeopardy, but to my sense of justice, it certainly is.

    Comment by The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:13 pm

  1442. That’s pretty much a given,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:16 pm

  1443. Peed–

    It’s the narcissism–the assumption that anybody deep down really even cares who they “are” or what they think that makes me laugh. Their obvious and underlying desperation for a constant attention stream manages to supersede and eclipse even the most comic/tragic comments they post.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:21 pm

  1444. I assume (but want to make sure) you know @1442 that I am not talking about you, multifacited Dana.

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:25 pm

  1445. #767 former conservative

    “…and delivered mighty pwnage onto the heads of…”

    Great line! I will use it as a taunt/boast someday.

    Comment by felipe (6100bc) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:25 pm

  1446. 1435-You can’t claim that the media is liberal if the media is (as spqr said) blaming the scandals which have nothing directly to do with his actions on him.

    Apparently the ‘liberal’ media isn’t so liberal.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:34 pm

  1447. Leadership, or lack thereof, sets the tone. Funny how any action by anyone is collectively the right’s responsibility, but to the Left, responsibility always seems to lie lie lie with the lowest possible speed bump.

    Comment by JD (8f669d) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:41 pm

  1448. Oh, That Liberal Media.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:41 pm

  1449. Here’s what I’ve learned after talking to low-information voters about this trial:

    If I’m sitting in my car and I see some guy walk by, I better just stay in my car and not get out of it because that might provoke that guy into attacking me and then I’ll be liable if I am forced to kill him.

    That’s what I’ve learned. It’s going to get boring in that car….

    Comment by Pious Agnostic (20c167) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:52 pm

  1450. I never knew liberals and Obamaiacs were automatically synonymous creatures? I thought there might be some space in there for individual thought and situational interpretation. Guess not, huh?

    Comment by elissa (0e6049) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:54 pm

  1451. 1449-Not if the media is in Obama’s pocket as much as you consistently claim.

    Comment by Ian G. (b2d693) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:23 pm

  1452. Silly Tye tsk tsk tsk. Honesty. Try it.

    Comment by JD (8f669d) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:30 pm

  1453. My fear on this is that Mr Zimmerman will be acquitted on all charges in the trial, and then Eric Holder will step in and have him charged in federal court with infringing on Mr Martin’s civil rights. Legally, that’s not double jeopardy, but to my sense of justice, it certainly is.

    Comment by The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/8/2013

    Interesting thought. I guess we’ll see what happens. It’s already been such a terrible display of politicized justice, but sometimes it also seems like the administration actively trolls for reactions they can exploit for turnout. I wouldn’t put much past them. Also, a great deal of people are convinced George committed murder, and all this talk of Trayvon being high or George being the screamer is BS. There is political hay to be made if someone disrespects justice enough.

    Comment by Dustin (0960a8) — 7/8/2013 @ 6:38 pm

  1454. Never forget the hidden purpose of all terrorism in the largest sense is to convince the civil population the institutions of their government are dysfunctional and inadequate to protect them. In this case the legal system delivers overt injustice while the Constitutional guarantee of the presumption of innocence is sacrificed on the alter of a racist kangaroo court.

    The repeated and carefully planned displays of federal government incompetence, malfeasance, and corruption, the more convincing and repitive the examples, the more likely the population will acquiesce in the fundamental transformation to come.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:02 pm

  1455. #1440 Comment by The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:13 pm

    My fear on this is that Mr Zimmerman will be acquitted on all charges in the trial, and then Eric Holder will step in and have him charged in federal court with infringing on Mr Martin’s civil rights. Legally, that’s not double jeopardy, but to my sense of justice, it certainly is.

    This would be a vast miscalculation on the part of Eric Holder. The administration is facing so much heat with all of the latest scandals and game playing that has occurred and Holder is in the middle of it. Doing something like this would only help to fuel the Tea Party and harm midterm elections more. I think there are more Tea Party sympathizers than Trayvon sympathizers.

    I’m not sure we will agree on this, but I think many people are starting to realize how weak the prosecution’s case is. This is a showing of the failures of trial by media and social justice.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:04 pm

  1456. Incredibly disturbing observation, Ropelight.

    Comment by Dustin (0960a8) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:08 pm

  1457. #1455, Dustin, ya don’t need a Weatherman (or a Community Organizer) to know which way the wind blows.

    Comment by ropelight (3a876d) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:44 pm

  1458. Elissa @1434:

    Here’s how NBC said the 911 call went down:
    ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black.

    OOPs. I don’t suppose the fact that the medical examiner found and just testified that Trayvon actually did have marijuana in his system had a thing to do with Brian Williams deciding to mention the defamation law suit on the news this evening. Yeah it sure looks like NBC edited some pretty important pieces out of that 911 call in order to make Zim appear all racisty. When the parties settle that suit out of court it should pay for a few hours of Zim’s expenses.

    In my view, the NBC reporting is consistent with Zimmerman’s overall motivation and behavior that evening. What, other than race, would trigger Z’s insistence on stalking the black teenager? It was like a state trooper using racial profiling, to, for example, pull over a driver.

    What behavior other than racism would motivate Z to stalk a kid heading home with skittles and iced tea? What dangerous/threatening behavior was he exhibiting. You can be sure that African-Americans can relate to this sequence of events, sadly.

    The Elissa’s of this world simply have no clue.

    As Dana adroitly noted, found guilty or not guilty, Zimmerman’s life will forever be altered for the worst, due to the terrible mistake he has made.

    Comment by Gramps2 (f29a4f) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:13 am

  1459. PERRY – thank you for that wall of mendacity. You are a profoundly disturbed and dishonest POS

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:18 am

  1460. “What, other than race, would trigger Z’s insistence on stalking the black teenager?”

    Gramps2 – In the minds of liberals racists such as yourself and those on NBC and MSNBC it requires nothing more.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:25 am

  1461. Ropelight @ 1458:

    Never forget the hidden purpose of all terrorism in the largest sense is to convince the civil population the institutions of their government are dysfunctional and inadequate to protect them. In this case the legal system delivers overt injustice while the Constitutional guarantee of the presumption of innocence is sacrificed on the alter of a racist kangaroo court.

    The repeated and carefully planned displays of federal government incompetence, malfeasance, and corruption, the more convincing and rep[et]itive the examples, the more likely the population will acquiesce in the fundamental transformation to come.

    How anyone in his right mind can call this an unjust and racist kangaroo court is beyond me. But here of course we have ropelight: this explains everything!

    Comment by Gramps2 (f29a4f) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:27 am

  1462. ratbeach wrote:

    My fear on this is that Mr Zimmerman will be acquitted on all charges in the trial, and then Eric Holder will step in and have him charged in federal court with infringing on Mr Martin’s civil rights. Legally, that’s not double jeopardy, but to my sense of justice, it certainly is.

    This would be a vast miscalculation on the part of Eric Holder. The administration is facing so much heat with all of the latest scandals and game playing that has occurred and Holder is in the middle of it. Doing something like this would only help to fuel the Tea Party and harm midterm elections more. I think there are more Tea Party sympathizers than Trayvon sympathizers.

    It would be a strong play toward the Democratic base, and, for President Obama, politics triumphs everything else. And it’s pretty difficult to criticize the President’s political instincts: he sensed that he could defeat the shoo-in Hillary Clinton in 2008, and guessed right, and he was able to take the worst record in modern history as President and still win re-election in 2012. You can bet against President Obama when it comes to running the government, and be right, but betting against him when it comes to politics has never worked out well.

    Comment by The saddened Dana (3e4784) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:56 am

  1463. Medical witness for the defense testifies about how Trayvon Martin was shot:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/us/teenager-was-over-zimmerman-as-he-was-shot-expert-says.html?_r=0

    A witness for the defense, Dr. Di Maio said the gun barrel rested against Mr. Martin’s sweatshirt, which hung two to four inches away from Mr. Martin’s chest. The bullet, he said, entered his heart from the front, in a left to right direction, and plunged into one of his lungs.

    “It indicates this is consistent with Mr. Zimmerman’s account,” he said. “That Mr. Martin was over him, leaning forward, at the time that he was shot.”

    Dr. Di Maio also said it was possible for Mr. Martin to have moved or talked for at least 10 to 15 seconds after he was shot because of the reservoir of oxygen in the brain. Defense lawyers hoped that this might explain why Mr. Martin was not found with his arms outstretched, as Mr. Zimmerman has described, but with his arms under him.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:19 pm

  1464. If Martin is facing down, gravity would lower the sweatshirt.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:20 pm

  1465. 1440. 1454

    The coldly realistic Dana (af9ec3) — 7/8/2013 @ 5:13 pm:

    My fear on this is that Mr Zimmerman will be acquitted on all charges in the trial, and then Eric Holder will step in and have him charged in federal court with infringing on Mr Martin’s civil rights. Legally, that’s not double jeopardy, but to my sense of justice, it certainly is.

    Comment by ratbeach (f5aad4) — 7/8/2013 @ 7:04 pm

    This would be a vast miscalculation on the part of Eric Holder. The administration is facing so much heat with all of the latest scandals and game playing that has occurred and Holder is in the middle of it.

    I don’t think they want to do that at all. That’s maybe why they are pulling back. Holder made a threat of a federal civil rights prosecution to get Florida to prosecute this case, but it’s probably the last thing he’d want to do now.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:32 pm

  1466. Ratbeach: I’m not sure we will agree on this, but I think many people are starting to realize how weak the prosecution’s case is.

    Yes, there was a New York Times article yesterday, Monday, that indicated that:

    Zimmerman Case Has Race as a Backdrop, but You Won’t Hear It in Court

    This article quoted a certain Rev. Al Jackson, who is a pastor in Richmond Heights, a predominantly black community in Miami-Dade County
    as saying:

    “The law doesn’t care how this started, but we do. You are punishing this boy for defending himself, even though it wasn’t his fault.”

    AND

    “We thought this was an open-and-shut case,”

    AND

    It is important that we still maintain peace, even though decisions are not made to our liking. That is our message, and that is what we are preaching.”

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:33 pm

  1467. Key Disputes in the Zimmerman Trial (according to the New York Times)

    1) Why did Mr. Zimmerman report Trayvon Martin (actually that’s not a dispute)

    2) Who started the confrontation? (this account misses the point that there is no way GZ could have caught up to TM, and that the turning point was not when the dispatcher said “we don’t need you to do that” but when GZ changed the plan to meet at the mailboxes at the end of the call. It also loses the fact that GZ did walk away from his car and then back to it.)

    3) Who had the upper hand during the fight?

    4) Who shouted for help?

    5) How severe were Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries? (that’s not the issue. The issue is the continuing danger to GZ. The injuries also were probably relatively minor because GZ was attempting to avoid having his head hit concrete at a fast speed, and later grass)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:40 pm

  1468. Some old geezer wrote:

    How anyone in his right mind can call this an unjust and racist kangaroo court is beyond me.

    The local officials did not believe that there was a reasonable case against Mr Zimmerman, and from what we’ve heard so far, it appears that their judgement on that was correct; even you have said that, “it does appear to me thus far that Zimmerman had to stand his ground in self-defence.

    This case would not be a case, and Mr Zimmerman would not be on trial at all, were the local officials not overruled but the state, by people far away from the case and the facts, due to pressure exerted solely due to the races of the people involved; if that does not fit the definition of a racist case, I don’t know what does. Whether it turns out to have been a kangaroo court as well will depend upon the verdict.

    Comment by The Dana who knows bovine feces when he reads it (3e4784) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:44 pm

  1469. Trayvon Martin’s Father Says Screams on 911 Call Were His Son’s – page A12 New York Times July 9, 2013

    First two police witnesses were called who said Tracy Martin indicated it was not his son.

    Tracy Martin testified that he was uncertain at first, but now he’s listened to the tape more. after listening to the tape for maybe 20 times at the Sanford mayor’s office he said it was his son.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:45 pm

  1470. The key elements that were necessary to get this whole thing started were:

    1) The person killed was black.

    2) The person who killed him was white, or blue.

    3) The person killed did not have a gun or a knife.

    4) The person killed was killed by a gun, or some other overpowering weapon.

    5) The person who did the killing was not arrested.

    6) The family of the person killed wanted the prosecution.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 12:57 pm

  1471. Dana @ 1467:

    Ah, now Dana has to save face by exerting his political correctness.

    Concerning Zimmerman, I contend that his prior behavior brought on the confrontation which ended Travon’s life, by Zimmerman’s own hand. Will there be no penalty for that?

    Regardless, his penalty, as Dana himself pointed out, is that his life will be forever changed, for the worse I will quickly add.

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:01 pm

  1472. Note carefully that Gramps explicitly endorses NBC’s fraudulent editing of the tape:

    “In my view, the NBC reporting is consistent with Zimmerman’s overall motivation and behavior that evening. “

    Fake but accurate is Gramps motto evidently. Fraudulent reporting is “consistent” with the fantasy in Gramps head, so its great.

    What a dishonest little s**t Gramps is.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:02 pm

  1473. Were it your son who was killed, would you have wanted the prosecution, Sammy?

    Now be honest!

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:03 pm

  1474. “Concerning Zimmerman, I contend that his prior behavior brought on the confrontation which ended Travon’s life, by Zimmerman’s own hand. Will there be no penalty for that?”

    Zimmerman’s “prior behavior” was entirely legal, you dishonest little s**t.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:04 pm

  1475. They edited the tape on three different occasions,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:04 pm

  1476. Let us wait to see what the Court decides in the NBC case, SPQR.

    I claim that the NBC reporting conveyed the same information that the actual statement made did.

    Disagreeing with you, however, does not mean that you are a dishonest little s**t. It means only that we disagree, a situation with which SPQR apparently has great difficulty, unsurprisingly!

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:08 pm

  1477. Zimmerman’s behavior was stalking, and provoked a killing, hardly inconsequential, unless you are a racist, SPQR.

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:10 pm

  1478. Narciso, and those three occasions were?

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:12 pm

  1479. Of course the local USA will indict for a civil-rights violation -
    it’s Rodney King redux.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:16 pm

  1480. “I claim that the NBC reporting conveyed the same information that the actual statement made did.”

    That’s flat out a lie. NBC conflated two different statements to make it look like Zimmerman said that being black was what made Martin suspicious when in fact he only mentioned Martin’s race to the dispatcher when the dispatcher asked for a description.

    Its a flat out lie to say that NBC editing out that dispatcher’s question was conveying the “same” information.

    And Zimmerman did not “stalk” Martin. That’s an objective lie. His following of Martin does not legally “provoke” a violent response by Martin. His behavior was entirely legal.

    You are indeed a dishonest s**t Gramps.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:29 pm

  1481. Zimmerman’s behavior was stalking, and provoked a killing, hardly inconsequential, unless you are a racist, SPQR.

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:10 pm

    How is doing his job as a neighborhood watch member stalking? You do know there had been several break ins in the area, correct?

    Comment by FlBuckeye (8ed7f5) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:29 pm

  1482. Making up stuff is not “disagreeing”. Its fabrication and dishonest to invent facts that simply don’t exist.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:30 pm

  1483. Zimmerman’s behavior was stalking, and provoked a killing,

    Whose killing did GZ provoke? His own??

    However reasonable attacking George Zimmerman might have seemed to Trayvon Martin (he could possibly have sized him up as a high ranking gangsta ready or about to call his crew to attack him) this would not have been reasonable under Florida law.

    Because you know, you are allowed to snitch.

    Besides if Zimmerman didn’t see him first at the time of the confrontation, that’s not very likely. TM’s only fear could have been that GZ would come back later with a bunch of people to look for him, and that they would find him, since they’d go looking fr him close to where he was staying.

    But the attack would not be reasonable.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:32 pm

  1484. Concerning Zimmerman, I contend that his prior behavior brought on the confrontation which ended Travon’s life, by Zimmerman’s own hand. Will there be no penalty for that?

    You now advocate penalties for legal actions?

    Comment by JD (dd2510) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:32 pm

  1485. Zimmerman’s behavior was stalking, and provoked a killing, hardly inconsequential, unless you are a racist, SPQR.

    A family moving away from town when it gets too “dark,” and currently living in a lily-white resort hamlet is racist too. So, gramps?

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:32 pm

  1486. Concerning Zimmerman, I contend that his prior behavior brought on the confrontation which ended Travon’s life, by Zimmerman’s own hand. Will there be no penalty for that?

    Your “contention” is pure bigotry.

    Why do you hate?

    Comment by Rob Crawford (e6f27f) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:33 pm

  1487. Now Sammy is also making up stuff, but I don’t call him dishonest because he’s clearly non compos mentis….

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:33 pm

  1488. I claim that the NBC reporting conveyed the same information that the actual statement made did.

    That’s because you’re a stone-cold idiot. In reality, it completely altered the context of the situation for the viewing/listening audience. Period.

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:34 pm

  1489. Zimmerman was told by the dispatcher not to follow Travon. He did anyway.

    On the NBC reporting case, we’ll just have to await the outcome of the court proceeding.

    Once again, a difference of opinion or interpretation is not a lie, SPQR, except to a dishonest s**t like yourself. Comes with the territory, eh SPQR? Can’t just say that we disagree, can you?

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:36 pm

  1490. Let’s be honest: there is more evidence that Trayvon attempted to murder someone than there is that George did. If George’s attention to a suspicious person revealed someone willing to smack a man’s head into pavement (attempting to kill them), that is indeed the type of person a neighborhood watch should watch.

    Given how dangerous he turned out to be, I think it would have been wise to heed the dispatcher’s suggestion to wait for officers, but we live in a free country, and nothing George did justifies Trayvon attempting to kill him. This is the part of this story that mystifies me. Why do people act like all their grievances with George justify Trayvon’s criminal actions?

    Comment by Dustin (dfe6b6) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:36 pm

  1491. I claim that the NBC reporting conveyed the same information that the actual statement made did.

    You also claim unicorns fart pixie dust, but that does not make it true. They objectively deceptively edited the tape, to advance their narrative.

    Comment by JD (dd2510) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:36 pm

  1492. Zimmerman was told by the dispatcher not to follow Travon. He did anyway.

    Funny, but the dispatcher’s testimony was that he didn’t tell George what to do. And the dispatcher did ask George what direction Trayvon was moving in, which is the reason George looked for Trayvon to find the answer to that question. In a sense, George was trying to comply with the dispatcher.

    Comment by Dustin (dfe6b6) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:37 pm

  1493. Can’t just say that we disagree, can you?

    Says the “man” who resorts to claims of racism and racists when people disagree with him. Comedy gold.

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:38 pm

  1494. Zimmerman’s behavior was stalking, and provoked a killing, hardly inconsequential, unless you are a racist, SPQR.

    Not by any honest definition of stalking, and certainly not by any legal definition. The race card it so tired, Perry. Racial grievance pimps like you are the only reason this is being tried. Leftist identity politics, it is what you do!

    Comment by JD (dd2510) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:38 pm

  1495. What happened to George Zimmerman is not normal.

    Here is a case where you have a mother who wants someone prosecuted, in some way, for a death.

    But it is not getting all this kind of attention, and bias.

    I saw this two weeks ago in Union Square:

    Justice for Roxi

    Summary and copies of news article on the Roxi Buta case

    This was a case where a 24 year old girl was run over by a city truck, and the driver left the scene.

    Most likely the 64 year old driver just didn’t see her. It was dark. He was probably not drunk, or on drugs, but he was probably tired. He may have delayed coming forward.

    He was black and she was white but when the races are that way it doesn’t cause this kind of stuff to happen.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:40 pm

  1496. That’s because you’re a stone-cold idiot. In reality, it completely altered the context of the situation for the viewing/listening audience. Period.

    How is that, Hube?

    I learned long ago that personal attacks/ad hominems are characteristic of the breed, unsatisfied with just stating their views.

    Bye!

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:40 pm

  1497. On the NBC reporting case, we’ll just have to await the outcome of the court proceeding.

    Perry wants to wait on the results of the lawsuit, because he knows the actual facts don’t comport with his narrative.

    Comment by JD (dd2510) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:41 pm

  1498. What’s made up (as fact)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:42 pm

  1499. How is that, Hube?

    If you do not know by now, why the hell are you even commenting on the topic? Unless you’re really in utter denial (which is quite likely).

    I learned long ago that personal attacks/ad hominems are characteristic of the breed, unsatisfied with just stating their views.

    Right. Gramps at 1:36: “Once again, a difference of opinion or interpretation is not a lie, SPQR, except to a dishonest s**t like yourself. Comes with the territory, eh SPQR? Can’t just say that we disagree, can you?”

    Again, comedy gold.

    Comment by Hube (4d0abc) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:43 pm

  1500. Gramps, personal attacks? Like calling me a racist because you disagree with me (according to you)? As I said, Gramps, you are a dishonest s**t.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:43 pm

  1501. Once again, a difference of opinion or interpretation is not a lie, SPQR,

    You and SPQR do not have a difference of opinion. You made shlt up, and make claims unsupported by the actual facts. SPQR merely pointed out that you are being dishonest. That is not a difference of opinion. That is a fact.

    Comment by JD (dd2510) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:43 pm

  1502. Indeed, Hube, because its a “difference of opinion or interpretation”. Like hell, NBC fired the producer who produced the edited tape. That’s their own “interpretation” …

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:45 pm

  1503. Gramps2 wrote:

    Concerning Zimmerman, I contend that his prior behavior brought on the confrontation which ended Travon’s life, by Zimmerman’s own hand. Will there be no penalty for that?

    We’ve already agreed that there will be a penalty: Mr Zimmerman, even if he is acquitted on all charges, has had his life ruined by unemployability and unfortunate notoriety. Now, we agree that it was Mr Zimmerman who created the situation, but we have also agreed that Mr Zimmerman should be acquitted. Mr Zimmerman creating the situation still does not mean that he did anything illegal in the creation of it, and the law can punish only actual crimes.

    Just what penalty would you suggest, given that you have already told us that you believe Mr Zimmerman had no choice but to stand his ground in self-defense? I’m guessing that Mr Martin’s family will be suing Mr Zimmerman, if he is acquitted, but he is just a working class guy; they’ll have more luck getting blood from a turnip than collecting on any lawsuit against Mr Zimmerman.

    Comment by The Dana who remembers past comments (3e4784) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:54 pm

  1504. He didn’t “create the situation” if “the situation” is an unlawful attack by Martin requiring self-defense on Z.’s part.

    In the nebulous sense you are using the phrase, it could just as easily be framed that Martin’s desire to go to the store to get “lean” ingredients, catch up with friends who might have some cough medicine, and case houses on the way home, was conspicuous enough in a recently and frequently burgled neighborhood to justify a non-emergency call for the police to check him out as a suspicious person. Wandering about, looking into houses, not to mention posturing aggressively when spotted, and taking off running when aware Z. was observing him and on the telephone.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 7/9/2013 @ 2:12 pm

  1505. 1142. Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 7/5/2013 @ 6:29 pm

    Here is a link from science daily discussing some recent research on cannabanoids associated with paranoia http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110405174833.htm

    It is using weasel words, and looks like it is sponsored by a drug company.

    It says here:

    Laviolette and his team at the Schulich School of Medicine & Dentistry discovered that activating cannabinoid receptors directly in a region of the brain called the amygdala, can strongly influence the significance of emotional information and memory processes

    WHICH WAY??

    It also dramatically increased the activity patterns of neurons in a connected region of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, controlling both how the brain perceived the emotional significance of incoming sensory information, and the strength of memories associated with these emotional experiences.

    ALSO??? When did they say it did in the first place?

    The prefrontal cortex is quite a different place than the amygdala anyway.

    Controlling the significance and strength of memories? Again, WHICH WAY??

    Furthermore, the findings by Laviolette’s laboratory identify a novel new brain pathway by which drugs acting on the cannabinoid system can distort the emotional relevance of incoming sensory information which in turn may lead to psychotic side-effects, such as paranoia, associated with heavy marijuana use.

    They pretend to have discovered some new facts about marijuana, but there can not be major (noticeable) effects of marijuana discovered in the 21st century.

    If you discovered WHY certain things happened, that you can do, like why it relieves nausea (probably because it makes it easier for the body to destroy brain or muscle tissue and get vitamins) but not some totally new phenomena.

    Developing pharmacological compounds, and there already are some, that block or modify this pathway could help control psychotic episodes. It could also be used to help patients with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder who have difficulty controlling the resurgence of highly emotional events into their memory.

    There already are some!

    The theory for PTSD is that it dampens emotions, which is I think the opposite that they are claiming for the other things.

    How can the same thing treat PTSD (= reduce fear) and cause paranoia??? (= increase fear and anxiety)

    And schizophrenia is a junk diagnosis with no relationship to any particular physiological effects, except maybe those caused by taking drugs prescribed for schizophrenia.

    Talking about changes in the brain of people diagnoses with schizophrenia is like saying cancer causes someone’s hair to fall out.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 2:17 pm

  1506. Sorry – the drug would block something in order to to affect PTSD while the marijuana supposedly increases anxiety, so they are not contradicting themselves that way.

    The judge has now allowed the toxicology results into testimony.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 2:20 pm

  1507. 1488.Zimmerman was told by the dispatcher not to follow Travon. He did anyway.

    On the NBC reporting case, we’ll just have to await the outcome of the court proceeding.

    Once again, a difference of opinion or interpretation is not a lie, SPQR, except to a dishonest s**t like yourself. Comes with the territory, eh SPQR? Can’t just say that we disagree, can you?

    Comment by Gramps2 (2898b0) — 7/9/2013 @ 1:36 pm

    No, you’re lying. The dispatcher, Sean Noffke, has already testified under oath that he never told Zimmerman to do anything. He’s testified that due to liability concerns dispatchers are trained not to issue commands but only offer suggestions.

    So there’s nothing to interpret. The only reason people like you pretend there’s something about the conversation between the dispatcher and Zimmerman left to interpret after the dispatcher has already testified is to support a lie.

    Comment by Steve57 (7c82fc) — 7/9/2013 @ 2:26 pm

  1508. I think that study above was very possibly designed to promote the off label use of a drug already approved for PTSD – to maybe get doctors to prescribe it to counteract the effects or marijuana.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 2:32 pm

  1509. Zimmerman defense may rest case by Wednesday AP 1:17 PM, updated 4:15 PMm

    The defense also wants to show the jury an animation of the fight. The judge first heard arguments on that in the morning but postponed her decision until after more arguments were heard in the afternoon.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/9/2013 @ 2:37 pm

  1510. Gramps2-On the NBC reporting case, we’ll just have to await the outcome of the court proceeding.

    Moron level self awareness.

    Comment by Birdbath (716828) — 7/9/2013 @ 3:16 pm

  1511. No, Birdbath, just outright lying.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 7/9/2013 @ 3:44 pm

  1512. If the defense is planning on resting tomorrow, it sounds like Mr Zimmerman won’t be testifying. Since the jury has already seen tapes of his interrogation by the police, he has, in effect, told his side of the story without being cross-examined.

    Absent some sort of bombshell, even if a juror wanted to believe the prosecution’s version, I don’t see how it could pass the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

    Comment by The obvious Dana (af9ec3) — 7/9/2013 @ 3:52 pm

  1513. John Hinderacker has a very good post up at PowerLine on this.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/9/2013 @ 3:54 pm

  1514. stand his ground

    How does one stand one’s ground when one is on his back on the ground?

    I think that whole angle on the story had no bearing except that many people wanted it to have some bearing.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/9/2013 @ 3:56 pm

  1515. Plus, the defense made it a point to NOT invoke Stand Your Ground in this matter, and did a simple Self-Defense plea.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/9/2013 @ 4:01 pm

  1516. Here’s a link to John Hinderaker’s Powerline post askeptic mentioned above.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/9/2013 @ 4:03 pm

  1517. The Philadelphia physician asked:

    How does one stand one’s ground when one is on his back on the ground?

    The obvious second part is that you cannot choose to run away if your assailant already has you on the ground pummeling you.

    Comment by The very obvious Dana (af9ec3) — 7/9/2013 @ 4:10 pm

  1518. And that’s an important point: by pinning Mr Zimmerman on the ground, Mr Martin removed the option of Mr Zimmerman turning tail and running. Mr Zimmerman’s only options by this point were to continue to take the beating he was getting, somehow reverse the course of the fight and beat Mr Martin, or pull out his weapon and shoot.

    Under cross-examination, Dr Di Maio conceded that it was possible that the shot was fired with Mr Martin pulling away from Mr Zimmerman, but that destroys the attempt by the defense to argue that the witness who saw them fighting on the ground could have seen Mr Zimmerman on top, not Mr Martin. If it was Mr Martin on the ground, gravity would have had his sweatshirt against his skin, not somehow floating above it.

    Comment by The forensic scientist Dana (af9ec3) — 7/9/2013 @ 4:27 pm

  1519. The obvious second part is that you cannot choose to run away if your assailant already has you on the ground pummeling you.

    But Trayvon Martin was only 17. Zimmerman’s dad is white. Trayvon had Skittles.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 7/9/2013 @ 5:00 pm

  1520. but that destroys the attempt by the defense [prosecution?] to argue that the witness who saw them fighting on the ground could have seen Mr Zimmerman on top, not Mr Martin

    I think that was what you meant to say.
    Yes, I thought it was interesting and good for the defense that objective evaluation of evidence could be judged as consistent with Z’s story.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/9/2013 @ 5:34 pm

  1521. As has been noted elsewhere, if George Zimmerman had been named Jorge Zambrano, none of us would have heard of this whole tragic affair.

    Comment by Pious Agnostic (20c167) — 7/9/2013 @ 5:35 pm

  1522. And nobody would have sent a penny for his defense. He would have gotten a public defender, pleaded out to manslaughter, and be serving ten years. Who cares when Latin Kings shoot Crips?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/9/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  1523. Crips.

    Comment by ropelight (92307b) — 7/9/2013 @ 7:17 pm

  1524. Heh!

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/9/2013 @ 7:20 pm

  1525. As has been noted elsewhere, if George Zimmerman had been named Jorge Zambrano, none of us would have heard of this whole tragic affair.

    That point really startles me, because I find even myself — who despises political correctness run amok — perceiving the story differently based on such a hypothetical.

    Closely parallel to that was an article in the LA Times earlier this year about Latino troublemakers intimidating a black family in Compton (a woman and her younger, apparently non-gangsta kids) with hard-core racist slurs and extreme, violent harassment. Or intimidation straight out of the 1950s “redneck” deep South. The very fact that story didn’t generate much or any commotion — or traction — speaks volumes about today’s culture and political reality.

    Moreover, in another peculiar parallel to that incident is a recent article about a Rasmussen Poll that indicates a larger number of Americans of all races (blacks included) now believes African-Americans are more racist than other groups, whites included.

    We are living in an alternative universe, and the proverbial shoe (which stunk in the past and still stinks today) is now on the other foot.

    Comment by Mark (897d7b) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:23 pm

  1526. Here’s a video of Selma Mora testifying. I have no idea what she’s testifying about, just here’s the video. ;)

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:29 pm

  1527. “Zimmerman’s behavior was stalking”

    I reckon. Reckon he’s guilty of murder too…but, we’ll see what the jury thinks. They ought to have the last word.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:43 am

  1528. The Philadelphia physician properly corrected my statement.

    In the meantime, it appears that one of the witnesses for the defense, John Donnelly, who testified that the voice on the tape screaming for help was Mr Zimmerman’s, may have been in court early, in violation of a rule of sequestration.

    Comment by The Dana who recognizes the correction (3e4784) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:17 am

  1529. Reckon he’s guilty of murder too…

    Reckon it’s easy to feel that way, too, when one lives in a neighborhood where doors and windows don’t have to be locked at night. And reckon such people also tend to avoid moving to or spending much time in communities whose populace is chock full of those who look like Obama’s son if he had a son.

    Compassion for compassion’s sake and ersatz tolerance are beautiful things to admire and uphold.

    Comment by Mark (897d7b) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:30 am

  1530. Yesterday the hearings on motions went on very long and the judge decided to call it a day and go home.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/10/2013 @ 7:43 am

  1531. I heard they are preparing for possible riots in Broward County and running public servicve announcements.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/broward-county-sheriffs-office-prepares-zimmerman-verdict-riot-plan.html

    This is exactly the wrong thing to do. It would encourage that, the way DARE encourages crime and drug use.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:08 am

  1532. Comment by Mark (897d7b) — 7/9/2013 @ 8:23 pm

    Brown on Black (and vice-versa) violence in the Greater L.A. area is a serious problem that the poobahs of Spring Street just do not want to acknowledge too loudly.

    The Hispanic/Latino/etc “community” is slowly pushing Blacks out of SoCal, and the “street gangs” would engage in all-out war if they were given the green light from their controllers within the prison system.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:18 am

  1533. Comment by The Dana who recognizes the correction (3e4784) — 7/10/2013

    Happy to oblige. As Bill Bennett says, candor and good will.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:19 am

  1534. Comment by Sammy Finkelman (a4dbab) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:08 am

    Right, they shouldn’t prepare….just coast along like the LAPD did with the Rodney King-Simi Valley trial.

    SF, you’re a moron sometimes.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:20 am

  1535. Public service announcements are just a way of telling honest Floridians to load a couple of extra magazines, Sammy. There will be no Reginald Dennys in Florida.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:24 am

  1536. #1527, Dana, yes it’s true, John Donnelly was present in the courtroom on at least on one occasion prior to his appearance as a defense witness, I’ve see the picture.

    Yet, a prosecution witness, Sybrina Fulton, TraMar’s birth mother, has been there every day all day. Additionlly, Tracy Martin, TraMar’s father has also been in the courtroom right there seated next to his ex-wife. Tracy was called to the stand as a defense witness, as was Donnelly.

    Why the unequal treatment? OK for some witnesses but not others? What’s up with that?

    Comment by ropelight (e67fe9) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:28 am

  1537. Personally, I think witness exclusion is overused. But anyway.

    Complaining witnesses (victims) are traditionally not excluded. Close family members of a homicide victim are also traditionally not excluded, and Florida may have codified this by statute or supreme court rule.

    Donnelly sounds like de minimis to me and the judge should just brush it off.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:35 am

  1538. What the judge should do and what’s been done have rarely been congruent.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (e7ebd8) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:36 am

  1539. “Reckon it’s easy to feel that way, too, when one lives in a neighborhood where doors and windows don’t have to be locked at night.”

    It beats the hell out of living in West Oakland. Now, that was a rough neighborhood.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 9:41 am

  1540. Dave, have you been following the trial?

    The evidence shows that before George shot Trayvon, Trayvon was leaning over George and pounding his head into the pavement, and that by shooting Trayvon, George may have actually ensured his survival.

    With that in mind, the actual attempted murder was on trayvon’s part. Nothing in evidence has given any justification for Trayvon attacking in a way that could kill George.

    George is guilty of being nosier than a lot of people in his neighborhood and country would like, evidenced by comments as well as the fact that no one reached out to help George as he screamed and was beaten down. The only person in that community who showed he really cared about his neighbors was George, who isn’t quite a hero, but is closer to one than anyone else in this story.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:05 am

  1541. Surls continues to claim Zimmerman a murderer even though he lacks any factual basis for that claim.

    Comment by SPQR (426a21) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:08 am

  1542. nk, OK for TraMar’s parents to sit in front of the jury eliciting sympathy all day every day, listening to every word, but GZ’s parents have to be hidden from view till called to testify and then be quickly ushered out after the prosecution’s cross examination?

    That’s not right, where’s the fairness, the impartiality, the equal application of procedure?

    I’m not trying to lay Judge Nelson’s sins at your feet nk far from it, nor am I asking you to rationalize her shortcomings, but if you or anyone else can add some clarity or provide some insight into this gross injustice please do.

    Comment by ropelight (e67fe9) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:11 am

  1543. Dustin, I agree with everything you wrote, with one exception. It’s hardly fair call it noisy for a neighborhood watchman, even a volunteer watchman, to notice and report a suspicious stranger lurking around on a rainy night checking out houses, especially during an ongoing string of burglaries.

    What ever happened to See Something, Say Something.

    Comment by ropelight (e67fe9) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:25 am

  1544. I can promise you that it’s not Nelson in this instance. It’s universal practice. To allow the parents, spouse, and siblings of the victim to attend the entire proceeding and, upon request of either party, to exclude all other witnesses whose testimony might be tainted from what they hear before they testify. I don’t like it. I did not like having my witnesses demoralized by cooling their heels in the courtroom hallway (or God forbid the witness room) waiting to be called but the best I could do is get an estimate of when they would be called and excuse them to go on about their business until then.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:32 am

  1545. Neighborhood Watch: Observe, and Report!

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:32 am

  1546. It’s hardly fair call it nosy for a neighborhood watchman, even a volunteer watchman, to notice and report a suspicious stranger

    Yeah, personally I agree. Nothing wrong with taking a look. Turns out Trayvon was indeed a very bad person, after all, willing to attempt to kill someone with very little provocation. From the evidence excluded from trial it looks like he was often violent and dealt in guns.

    What I was trying to say was that George was guilty of being nosier than many other people want him to be (which isn’t much of a crime at all).

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:34 am

  1547. I used to think that televising interesting trials was a good thing. I thought it exposed people who are never directly involved in one to witness both the miracle and and the warts of our court system. I thought being on camera would keep everybody including the judge “on their toes” so to speak. I’m not so sure any more.

    Over the past twenty years or so, tho, I’ve come to believe that it’s rare if all parties in a televised don’t conduct themselves mostly as performers. Sure, theater for the jury is part of all trials. But I think that the trial itself and the evidence that the jury is allowed to see and hear is probably very different than were it all not on national TV.

    Comment by elissa (e219d7) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:40 am

  1548. Like it or not, in this trial Trayvon Martin is considered the victim, because he was the one killed, and the family of the victim is treated differently, under the law, than anyone else, even if they are potential witnesses as well. And you will never get state legislators to change the laws in a fashion which excludes the victim’s family from the courtroom as long as they are not violent.

    Comment by The Dana who understands ropelight's frustration (3e4784) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:52 am

  1549. Now the Judge is badgering GZ demanding to know if he’s going to waive his right to testify on his own behalf, and denying his attorney’s objections.

    Comment by ropelight (e67fe9) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:58 am

  1550. You are right about this, The Dana @ 10:52 am.

    Comment by elissa (e219d7) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:03 am

  1551. Dana, it’s a shame because the victim is not the defendant, and it’s our defendant that the courts should be protecting. Concealing evidence that might have probative or even exculpatory value to the defendant because of our emotions towards the “victim”, ever the saint in our society, is fundamentally misguided.

    However, you’re right, like it or not as you said.

    I’m not concerned with Martin’s family being there. I am concerned with this court’s attitude of hostility towards the defendant and his rights.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:09 am

  1552. That was an interesting exchange when the Judge was questioning Zimmerman about testifying. The MSNBC crowd says it’s normal for the court to notify Zimmerman he has a right to testify and ask him if he understands he has this right, but the Judge seemed more interested in getting Zimmerman to say he wouldn’t testify.

    This incident and the rulings yesterday, not to mention the rulings and demeanor of the Judge toward the defense during the trial, solidify the notion that the Judge doesn’t like the defendant and/or defense counsel. It happens but IMO most judges aren’t so obvious about it.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:15 am

  1553. If the judge is truly “badgering GZ demanding to know if he’s going to waive his right to testify on his own behalf, and denying his attorney’s objections,” she is setting up Mr Zimmerman’s appeal if he is convicted; the jury may not (legally) take into account the fact that a defendant has not chosen to testify, but if the judge is doing that badgering, she has just made Mr Zimmerman not testifying an issue in front of the jury.

    Further, exclusion of tweets by Mr Martin about his self-proclaimed prowess at fighting would seem to be a reversible error: the prosecution is claiming that Mr Martin was not making a serious threat to Mr Zimmerman, while the defense contends otherwise, and Mr Martin’s tweets would be both germane and support the defense.

    Comment by The Dana who can see the mistakes (3e4784) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:17 am

  1554. Was the jury present when the judge questioned Zimmerman about testifying? Surely not.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:24 am

  1555. I don’t think they were, DRJ. Still, it’s ugly when the court shows so much animosity towards one side.

    Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:38 am

  1556. Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:05 am

    Nothing in evidence has given any justification for Trayvon attacking in a way that could kill George.

    The prosecution, of course, is basically denying that Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman, except when they indicate that doesn’t matter.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:41 am

  1557. Comment by The forensic scientist Dana (af9ec3) — 7/9/2013 @ 4:27 pm

    by pinning Mr Zimmerman on the ground, Mr Martin removed the option of Mr Zimmerman turning tail and running. Mr Zimmerman’s only options by this point were to continue to take the beating he was getting, somehow reverse the course of the fight and beat Mr Martin, or pull out his weapon and shoot.

    No, there was another alternative.

    HE COULD WAIT FOR THE POLICE TO ARRIVE.

    He could probably have held out for a while longer.

    Except that nobody told him 911 had been called.

    But of course there was a risk to him that Trayvon Martin would inflict some really damaging blow, and also that he might seize his gun.

    GZ had to guard against both possibilities.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 11:59 am

  1558. George Zimmerman called for help, and nobody helped or even said that help is on the way. People called 911 but didn’t tell GZ or warn TM (although I think the result of doing that might be unpredictable)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:03 pm

  1559. Of course the neighbors didn’t have any idea who was in the wrong in that struggle.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:04 pm

  1560. Insty links to a post at PJ Media that says that there is damning evidence recovered from TM’s password-protected cell-phone showing him involved in street-fights, and possibly trafficking in guns.
    http://pjmedia.com/blog/disorder-judge-recesses-zimmerman-trial-excludes-damning-evidence/

    I would think that this would call for a mistrial at the least, and a dismissal-with-prejudice more than likely – if the judge wasn’t so in-the-bag for the State.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:06 pm

  1561. Comment by Dustin (303dca) — 7/10/2013 @ 10:05 am

    The evidence shows that before George shot Trayvon, Trayvon was leaning over George and pounding his head into the pavement

    Not the pavement, the grass. I don’t know why this distinction is getting lost. His head did hit the pavement at least once, but that was at the start of the fight. Although he didn’t manage to escape, George did succeed in moving the field of battle onto the grass.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:07 pm

  1562. But of course there was a risk to him that Trayvon Martin would inflict some really damaging blow, and also that he might seize his gun.

    GZ had to guard against both possibilities.

    Zimmerman said in his statement to police that Martin discovered his gun and then told him he would die. The shot followed that.

    Comment by Mike K (dc6ffe) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:07 pm

  1563. Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:06 pm

    I would think that this would call for a mistrial at the least, and a dismissal-with-prejudice more than likely – if the judge wasn’t so in-the-bag for the State.

    Why would he ask for a mistrial – you don’t get mistrials for this anyway – when he can get an acquittal?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:09 pm

  1564. More shenanigans…..

    Judicial Watch has evidence that the DoJ was attempting to influence public opinion on this matter….
    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/07/10/newly-released-documents-detail-the-department-of-justices-role-in-organizing-trayvon-martin-protests/

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:10 pm

  1565. Comment by Mike K (dc6ffe) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:07 pm

    Zimmerman said in his statement to police that Martin discovered his gun and then told him he would die. The shot followed that.

    Yes, there’s even more than that, but even if you didn’t believe him entirely, there’s the simple fact of the gun, and the need to protect it.

    It would be helpful if GZ would repeat that under oath today and let himself be cross examined over it. Otherwise many people will not believe that.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:13 pm

  1566. 1356. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/8/2013 @ 12:58 pm

    Parade of defense witnesses today talking about how great a guy Zimmerman is and how they’ve tried to help him.

    Makes you wonder why the state didn’t have a parade of character witnesses for Martin.

    We all know the reason for that, and it does not reflect well on this prosecution.

    They could have come up with some witnesses, but that would open up the door to all the bad things about Martin. The prosecution was very careful not to have anybody say anything good about Trayvon Martin the whole trial, even his mother.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:19 pm

  1567. 90.405 Methods of proving character.—
    (1) REPUTATION.—When evidence of the character of a person or of a trait of that person’s character is admissible, proof may be made by testimony about that person’s reputation.
    (2) SPECIFIC INSTANCES OF CONDUCT.—When character or a trait of character of a person is an essential element of a charge, claim, or defense, proof may be made of specific instances of that person’s conduct.

    Not even a close call. Martin getting into fights with other people that Zimmerman did not even know about or “trafficking” in guns (whatever that means) is too collateral, too far afield. I wouldn’t admit it except if the State had made an issue of the victim’s character for peacefulness and law-abidedness but I would not have allowed that either.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:21 pm

  1568. There is a broad public policy across all crimes but some more than others not to make the victim’s character an issue unless it’s directly pertinent to the crime. And some times not even then (rape shield law).

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:24 pm

  1569. The thing about Martin getting into fights with other people, is that it might sound otherwise unplausible that Martin would have done what George Zimmerman said he did.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:41 pm

  1570. And it’s important to know that GZ made that claim about TM before he knew anything about TM.

    He could not have invented that story because he knew something about TM.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:43 pm

  1571. It almost is an essential element of the defense that Travon Martin might attack someone like this.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:44 pm

  1572. I would think that a past history of “street fights” would indicate that he, TM, was not reluctant to attack someone, something that GZ has claimed to have happened.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:45 pm

  1573. nk,

    Didn’t the State arguably open the door to evidence that Trayvon Martin liked to fight when it presented evidence that Zimmerman was more knowledgeable and experienced at MMA fighting than Martin?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:58 pm

  1574. Zimmerman Defense Can’t Show Jurors Martin’s Messages

    Debra S. Nelson, ruled that jurors could not see text and Facebook messages from Trayvon Martin’s cellphone that discussed street fighting and a desire to buy a gun through a friend. The ruling followed a contentious hearing that lasted until 10 p.m. Tuesday night. The judge concluded the hearing while an exhausted Don West, one of Mr. Zimmerman’s lawyers, pleaded with the judge to give them more breathing room to present their arguments.

    The defense lawyers had argued that prosecutors had not given them the text and Facebook messages in a timely manner.

    She also said the defense could not introduce their computer-animation recreation of the fight as evidence but could show it to jurors as a “demonstrative exhibit,” mostly likely playing it during closing arguments.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:58 pm

  1575. Mr Finlekman (sarcastically) wrote:

    No, there was another alternative.

    HE COULD WAIT FOR THE POLICE TO ARRIVE.

    When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

    Comment by The cliché using Dana (3e4784) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:02 pm

  1576. While straddling a foam dummy figure on the courtroom floor, John Guy, one of the prosecutors in the case, suggested that it would have been hard for Mr. Martin to reach for Mr. Zimmerman’s gun the way Mr. Zimmerman described.

    But Mr. Root said a fight is “dynamic” and there is constant motion. Because of that, he said, it’s difficult to freeze the action in one particular moment.

    Then Mark O’Mara, another lawyer for Mr. Zimmerman, took his turn straddling the dummy to show that Mr. Zimmerman could have grabbed his own gun, even with Mr. Martin on top of him.

    That brings up a point. In order to use the gun, Zimmerman had to clear enough space between himself and Trayvon Martin to be able to grab it and he could not be certain he’d get another chance.

    GZ was actually succeeding in getting some space between himself and TM, which would also enable him to slow down the speed at which he hit the grass, (and the separation of his shirt from TM’s body proves it as well) but not enough to get away.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:05 pm

  1577. If the judge is truly “badgering GZ demanding to know if he’s going to waive his right to testify on his own behalf, and denying his attorney’s objections,” she is setting up Mr Zimmerman’s appeal if he is convicted; the jury may not (legally) take into account the fact that a defendant has not chosen to testify, but if the judge is doing that badgering, she has just made Mr Zimmerman not testifying an issue in front of the jury.

    That is exactly what she did — and before the defense had called its final witnesses too. It was appalling, including so much of this judge’s behavior, for example when she wrongly excluded the text messages and photos inside the two hidden password protected apps on Martin’s password protected the phone.

    Comment by Former Conservative (105295) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:09 pm

  1578. Comment by The cliché using Dana (3e4784) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:02 pm

    When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

    I’m not clear exactly how soon they arrived.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:12 pm

  1579. Accordimng to the newspaper story, the judge asked Geireg zimmerman if he had decided already whether he was going to testify and the lawyer objected as why he was being asked that now.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:26 pm

  1580. 1563. That was in 2012.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 1:34 pm

  1581. Yes, we’ve gone completely looney

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/07/audio-mark-levin-on-broward-county-psa-asking-citizens-not-to-riot-is-this-america/

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:30 pm

  1582. The media bias (or ignorance) is pretty bad:

    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news&id=6335303

    Behind the News with Bill Ritter

    Wednesday, July 10, 2013

    George Zimmerman won’t testify

    So lemme get this right. George Zimmerman isn’t going to testify in his own defense, a defense based solely on his claim that he shot and killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense?

    That he was so scared by this unarmed black teenager in Miami last year, so beat up by him, that he fired his gun at the boy at point-blank range and killed him?

    If it were you, and you believed your life was in danger and you killed Martin in self-defense, would you take the stand?

    I know, I know, all the defense lawyers out there will complain that the issue isn’t the truth, it’s how exposed Mr. Zimmerman would be on the stand against the highly trained and aggressive prosecutors. The problem for the defense is that Zimmerman has already testified, so to speak, when he sat down for an extensive interview with Fox News. And that’s already been played in court.

    So while the defense lawyers for Mr. Zimmerman will say they’re playing it safe, one wonders how the jury will view this testimony aversion.

    We’ll have the latest from the trial, tonight at 11.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:32 pm

  1583. This didn’t take place in Miami, by the way.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:33 pm

  1584. I don’t think there will be a riot, because I don’t think those activists want it, because Holder cannot in the end find George Zimmerman guilty, but these public service announcements are, like I said, like DARE. [Drug Abuse Resistance Education]

    http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/YouthIssues/1083435917.html

    Not a single peer-reviewed published study has ever found DARE to be effective in reducing subsequent alcohol consumption or drug use. Scientific research consistently finds that DARE is not only ineffective, but sometimes even counterproductive — worse than doing nothing. That’s the conclusion of the U.S. General Accounting Office, the U.S. Surgeon General, the National Academy of Sciences, and the U.S. Department of Education. That’s why the federal government strictly prohibits schools from spending federal funds on the failed program.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:42 pm

  1585. Sammy, that is bad. Even if you’re the wrong race for the MSM, technically defendants have nothing to prove. We’ve seen a judge let the state cross the line many times, even with potentially hiding exculpatory evidence until the last second (or even worse).

    I do not see any upside, and tremendous risk with high stakes, to George taking the stand. If the state badgers the bajesus out of George, will the judge be fair? Unlikely.

    And the state never proved their case. The defense could have rested as soon as the state did and I would hope George would be acquitted.

    Comment by Dustin (42cd91) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:43 pm

  1586. In Orlando, bracing for impact.

    Comment by Pious Agnostic (20c167) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:44 pm

  1587. 1579- So, it was OK for the DoJ to send a team of operatives to FL, in 2012, to ramp up demand that GZ be prosecuted for the death of TM?
    Were the demands of the media and the usual suspects being ignored to the point that this had to be choreographed by DoJ, in a State criminal investigation?

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:52 pm

  1588. This didn’t take place in Miami, by the way.

    Which means what?
    What did take place in Miami was TM’s pattern and practice of engaging in street-fights and other thuggish behavior, which got him bounced from school, and sent to Sanford. All activities that TM attested to in the encrypted memory of his cell-phone.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:57 pm

  1589. A former judge commenting on FOX TV about GZ’s decision not to testify said it was the right decision. In his considerable courtroom experience many times the defendant was winning the case right up to the point he decided to take the stand in order to explain what happened.

    The results are almost universally disastrous, the prosecution is well versed in impeaching testimony and the accused are at such an enormous disadvantage in terms of experience with aggressive cross examination that more often than not the jury votes to convict based on perceived contradictions in the defendant’s story rather than on the evidence previously presented.

    Comment by ropelight (e67fe9) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:58 pm

  1590. Let me translate from Finkleman standard, it was not the Miami bureau, that would be WPLG channel 10

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:58 pm

  1591. Didn’t the State arguably open the door to evidence that Trayvon Martin liked to fight when it presented evidence that Zimmerman was more knowledgeable and experienced at MMA fighting than Martin?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 12:58 pm

    How did that come in? Because of the neighbor’s testimony that the guy on top was pounding the guy on the bottom MMA style? Great, counsel, now I have to weigh probative value vs. undue prejudice. Sorry, it’s still out. Now let’s talk about that gate slamming and the dog barking, and where did that car detailer go? ;)

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 3:57 pm

  1592. …but the dog didn’t bark!

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:01 pm

  1593. nk,

    I think the inflammatory nature of the testimony is the reason the Judge excluded most of the evidence about Trayvon Martin’s interests, and there’s a good reason for having that rule. In addition, I’m not sure but I believe the Judge ultimately allowed evidence of Martin’s drug panel from his autopsy.

    However, at some point, I think it’s unfair to the defense to let the State portray Martin as not doing drugs, not fighting, and not the sort to start trouble. In other words, the Judge let the State use Martin’s whitewashed background as a sword and a shield.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:12 pm

  1594. …but the dog didn’t bark!

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:01 pm

    Or the cop would have shot it!

    Boom! Ghost with the call back!
    I keed, I keed, ees joke.

    Comment by Ghost (996b5a) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:14 pm

  1595. ropelight,

    I agree Zimmerman made the right decision. I also wonder why the Judge was trying to push Zimmerman to say whether he was going to testify before the defense rested. Information like that could conceivably help the State, although it may be the Judge was simply trying to calculate how much longer the trial would last.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:14 pm

  1596. Did anyone answer the question as to whether the jury was in or out of the courtroom when this question was posed to Zimmerman by the Judge?

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:17 pm

  1597. out, askeptic

    Comment by elissa (e219d7) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:20 pm

  1598. I looked up a couple of Florida decisions. As late as April of this year the Florida Supreme Court was resolving conflicts between its circuits on what are tactical decisions that can be made by the lawyer and what require explicit waivers by the defendant. The judge wanted the record to be perfectly clear?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:20 pm

  1599. That’s the way MSNBC’s analysts took it, nk, but the Judge went further and pressed Zimmerman to say when he would decide whether he wanted to testify. It’s one thing to notify a defendant of his right to testify (or not). It’s another to insist he tell us now what his decision will be.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:23 pm

  1600. By the way, this occurred before the defense rested and, in fact, when it still had 2 witnesses left to call.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:24 pm

  1601. Would you say that perhaps the Judge overstepped the bounds of propriety, or even worse?

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:26 pm

  1602. The more I think about it, the more this Judge strikes me as someone who wants to keep control of her courtroom. She may well have been trying to manage the jury’s timetable and wanted to know if Zimmerman was going to testify so she could factor that in. But a judge (especially) should know that you can’t elevate form over substance.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:26 pm

  1603. There are surgeons who think they’re God;
    There are judges who know they’re God;
    God wonders why anyone else would want the job.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:30 pm

  1604. That part was broadcats on the CBS Evening News. Zimmerman’s lawyer kept objecting. Probably they really had decided no, but they didn’t want Zimmerman to say that. Zimmerman took the objections as maybe a clue that they’d changed their minds, and said he’d decide after talking with his lawyers. The judge wasn’t really pressing him to decide but wanted to know if he had already decided (to testify, because only if the answer is yes would he be able to say)

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:35 pm

  1605. I don’t agree with your analysis, Sammy. Maybe there is something in Florida law that requires Zimmerman tell the Judge whether he plans to testify before the defense rests. If not, then I don’t think he has to say, and the attorneys can try to keep him from having to do that. This is true even if they all agree he won’t testify, or they all agree he will, or they disagree.

    Comment by DRJ (8b9d41) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:39 pm

  1606. SF: “This didn’t take place in Miami, by the way.”

    1587. Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 7/10/2013 @ 2:57 pm

    Which means what?

    I guess that shows me what can happen when I leave an orphaned comment.

    I was referring to the commentary of Bill Ritter, news anchor of WABC TV Channel 7 in New York that I left @ 1581.

    So lemme get this right. George Zimmerman isn’t going to testify in his own defense, a defense based solely on his claim that he shot and killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense?

    That he was so scared by this unarmed black teenager in Miami last year, so beat up by him, that he fired his gun at the boy at point-blank range and killed him

    If he doesn’t even know this shooting did not take place in Miami, how much about it can he know?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:39 pm

  1607. Also, it sounded to me like the Judge was pressing Zimmerman to decide and tell her his decision.

    Comment by DRJ (8b9d41) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:39 pm

  1608. Still, the right way is:

    Mr. O’Mara, will the defendant testify?
    No, he will not, Your Honor.
    Mr. Zimmerman, your attorney has said that you will not testify. Is that your decision?
    Yes, your Honor.
    Mr. Zimmerman you have the right to testify blah blah blah blah form admonishment per circuit rule blah blah blah. Is it still your decision not to testify?
    Yes, Your Honor.

    Oh, well.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:42 pm

  1609. We really could have used a Perry Mason moment in this trial, where a witness broke down and told the truth. Tracy martin was maybe the best chance – maybe not himself but enough to tell who to ask.

    There is a truth to be known – what Trayvon Martin really said on the telephone call.

    BTW I am not sure how things stood in the trial.

    Was Rachel Jeantel claiming to have overheard the start of the confrontation? Do we have the time when that telephone call ended?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:42 pm

  1610. I think the media wants to ignore anything the jury doesn’t get to hear.

    The jury may not know of what was on the cell phone, but the media does.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:43 pm

  1611. nk,

    I didn’t practice criminal law but does that conversation typically happen while the defense is presenting its case, before it calls its final witness?

    Comment by DRJ (8b9d41) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:55 pm

  1612. And the media, has been assiduous in obscuring the truth, even to the point of inventing it.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/10/2013 @ 4:57 pm

  1613. “Dave, have you been following the trial?”

    Just through news reports. I haven’t read the transcripts yet. I haven’t heard anything of import that wasn’t reported in the media a year ago.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:07 pm

  1614. Well except for the Department’s liason to the neighborhood watch, the criminal justice professor who offered a seminar on gun handling, the medical examiner, who offered yet another seminar on evidence handling, cutting the prosecution’s case, like Paul Bunyan, yeah nothing new,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:11 pm

  1615. It’s like you said, at some point the court asks “What more do you (the defense) expect to present?” and then it’s blocking in time. It’s kind of loose.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:11 pm

  1616. “So lemme get this right. George Zimmerman isn’t going to testify in his own defense, a defense based solely on his claim that he shot and killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense?”

    Yeah, well you can’t be compelled to testify against yourself in a criminal trial, like it says in the Constitution. And if I had a client who was guilty as hell…I wouldn’t let him testify either. No good could come of it.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:12 pm

  1617. I’m not supposed to say this, but in practice it’s (sub silentio) “Judge, do I look crazy? I wish I could keep this mutt out of the courtroom altogether”. Most defendants are not really very attractive witnesses. ;)

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:15 pm

  1618. DRJ and nk you two be the law here. And let me say upfront that I didn’t watch that piece of video specifically. But from what I gathered from Jeralyn’s review apparently the judge made a big deal about putting Zimmerman under oath and then asked him the same thing about three times. Any judge asking any defendant if he understands his rights to testify or not to testify– and confirming it is own decision is one thing. I certainly see why that needs to be in the court record to protect everybody. But putting Zim under oath sounds like dramatic overkill if not harassment. I do not think that is standard procedure, (again, unless it’s a specific to Florida rule).

    Comment by elissa (e219d7) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:17 pm

  1619. No, Dave. The reason you don’t want to do it is because the defendant on the stand is so overwhelming that it eclipses all the rest of the case, as was said above. He’ll live or die by every word, by every mannerism, and by every irrational like or dislike he evokes in the jury.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:18 pm

  1620. I didn’t see the video either but putting the defendant under oath for this is nuts.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:21 pm

  1621. “Most defendants are not really very attractive witnesses.”

    That’s because most defendants are criminals and they’re guilty as hell.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:26 pm

  1622. It appears that the appropriate Fla superior court has been taking judges to task over not confirming the decision not to testify. Why this judge chose this manner and time to discover and confirm … maybe she’ll write a book. There’s much she could explain.

    There’s also what some have called the 10-25-life trap, which it appears will not be explained to the jury until after their verdict is in.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:27 pm

  1623. IMO the judge was way out of line and it is becoming increasing more apparent that she is not real happy with GZ.

    Whether the jury is or isn’t in the room – not testifying is like taking the fifth, you might as well confess

    Comment by E.PWJ (254399) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:30 pm

  1624. “He’s gained an enormous amount of weight. Over 120, 125 pounds I believe. I think because he is sitting in a house stressed trying to deal with the moniker that’s been put on him that he’s the most hated man in America for taking the life of somebody when he really feels that he didn’t need to,” Mark O’Mara said during a CNN interview.”~Chron

    …when he really feels that he didn’t need to.

    Comment by tifosa (7f0e46) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:32 pm

  1625. That’s because most defendants are criminals and they’re guilty as hell.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:26 pm

    Remember that when O’Keefe gets dragged into court again….

    Comment by E.PWJ (254399) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:33 pm

  1626. Oh good allah. Choosing not to testify is nothing like taking the fifth when one is already under oath.

    Comment by elissa (e219d7) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:35 pm

  1627. Hey, htom. Angela Corey has used the firearm enhancement before to get twenty years for a man who fired two shots into the ground to chase away what he thought were criminals assaulting his neighbor. It’s only one of the many things that proves what a wonderful human being she is.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:35 pm

  1628. elissa

    In orleans parish the judge will warn you when taking the fifth or not testifying that its not recommended.

    Comment by E.PWJ (254399) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:38 pm

  1629. Chip off the old block, being Gloria Allred;

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nbcs-lisa-bloom-says-zimmerman-prosecution-needs-to-go-hard-on-the-racial-angle-in-summation/

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  1630. In orleans parish the judge will warn you when taking the fifth or not testifying that its not recommended.

    Comment by E.PWJ (254399) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:38 pm

    I seriously question that.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:49 pm

  1631. nk

    they also do in Chancery court, TN, Ted Poe did as a state judge, and many more examples MS, GA.

    Comment by E.PWJ (254399) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:00 pm

  1632. Apropos of the admonition that defendants shouldn’t expose themselves to cross examination, tonight on Law and Order “The Good Doctor” takes the stand and as a result of clever and provocative questioning by the prosecutor, convicts himself.

    Comment by ropelight (e67fe9) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:04 pm

  1633. I saw the discussion between the Judge and Zimmerman, but I’m not sure I saw all of it. I didn’t have a computer so I was watching it on MSNBC and the coverage was on and off. However, the part I saw did not involve the Judge asking Zimmerman if he understood he had the right to testify or not testify. What I saw was the Judge repeatedly asking Zimmerman whether he was going to testify. In addition, she stopped defense counsel West each time he tried to answer or speak for Zimmerman. (At this point, the dynamic between the Judge and West is toxic.)

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:07 pm

  1634. 1620.“Most defendants are not really very attractive witnesses.”

    That’s because most defendants are criminals and they’re guilty as hell.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:26 pm

    Most does not equal all. But it’s always nice to here from the “If you’re not guilty, why where you arrested?” school of criminal justice.

    I’m sure at some point you’ll weigh in and say that I’m putting words in your mouth, Surls.

    But what is the point of tying a defendant’s defense strategy to the statement most defendants are guilty? Other than to imply that any defendant that doesn’t testify must be guilty?

    There are a lot of reasons why a defense attorney can conclude a defendant may not be the best witness in their own defense. Even when they conclude the defendant is innocent of the crime.

    Comment by Steve57 (7c82fc) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:08 pm

  1635. The defense has established a ton of reasonable doubt so I think it would be crazy for Zimmerman to testify now, although as a layman my guess is he wants to and thinks he should.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 7/10/2013 @ 6:11 pm

  1636. 1615. …And if I had a client who was guilty as hell…I wouldn’t let him testify either. No good could come of it.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 7/10/2013 @ 5:12 pm

    But if you had a client who you didn’t think was guilty as hell, who you actually thought was innocent maybe, you couldn’t thing of a reason not to put him or her on the stand where that defendant might make a bad impression on a jury?

    Really?

    Comment by Steve57 (7c82fc)