Patterico's Pontifications

6/21/2013

Edward Snowden Charged with Espionage

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:32 pm



CNN:

Federal prosecutors have charged Edward Snowden, the man who admitted leaking top-secret details about U.S. surveillance programs, with espionage and theft of government property, according to a criminal complaint that was unsealed Friday in U.S. District Court in Virginia.

The United States has asked Hong Kong to detain Snowden on a provisional arrest warrant, The Washington Post reported, citing unnamed U.S. officials.

The complaint charges Snowden with theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information and willful communication of classified intelligence to an unauthorized person — allegations that amount to espionage in the United States under the federal Espionage Act.

[Following is the sort of insightful observation that makes yours truly one of the premier bloggers on the Internets.]

Should he be extradited, his numerous admissions of culpability will make his defense considerably difficult.

311 Responses to “Edward Snowden Charged with Espionage”

  1. Snowden is a hero and a patriot in my book. We live in an age where the civil liberties our forefathers fought so hard for are being eroded by the day. Freedom of Press, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly are mere ghostly images of their original intent. We’ve woken up to an Orwellian Society of Fear where anyone is at the mercy of being labeled a terrorist for standing up for rights we took for granted just over a decade ago. Read about how we’re waging war against ourselves at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society-of-fear-ten-years.html

    Brandt Hardin (27fe3f)

  2. Good Lord, Hardin, I went to your blog. Do you have any political opinions that don’t originate from the far left?

    JVW (23867e)

  3. He could try defense of others like Nidal Hassan, or maybe insanity, or nullification. They aren’t usually successful but he doesn’t have many options left.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  4. Two defenses:

    1) “I made it all up.” Cannot be convicted for divulging things that aren’t secrets due to their being false.

    2) “It was a necessary action in defending America from all enemies, foreign and domestic.” This kind of runs toward jury nullification and the judge may exclude the argument (although that would have its own political fallout).

    3) “I’m a patsy.”

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  5. ok, three.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  6. Herein lies the larger problem’

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/06/20/3461821/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html

    Hence Rosen and Atkinson get the third degree, while the Minitrue bulletins ‘spike the football

    narciso (3fec35)

  7. He could have gone before the American people as a whistle blower, saying that any law forbidding us from knowing we’re being spied on is no law at all, and accept the consequences as a patriot.

    Had he done that, he’d be a hero in my book.

    Dustin (e5e0b7)

  8. i don’t see why he should be charged with anything when Leon Panetta blew in SEAL Team 6 for partisan political gain, which resulted in the operators getting killed, and he’s still walking around a free man.

    resistance to tyrants is obedience to G*d.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  9. Dustin–

    I think that Thoreau exemplified that — be disobedient but expect to do the time.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  10. Well, I’d also prosecute Sandy Berger to the full extent of the law: sneaking classified documents out of the National Archive (in his pants) and destroying them to hide Clinton’s mistakes on al Qaeda.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  11. 4. He could try defense of others like Nidal Hassan, or maybe insanity, or nullification. They aren’t usually successful but he doesn’t have many options left.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/21/2013 @ 6:35 pm

    Unfortunately he may have options.

    Via Drudge:

    http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/06/21/iceland-bound-jet-for-edward-snowden-could-take-off-tomorrow

    Iceland-Bound Jet for Edward Snowden ‘Could Take Off Tomorrow’

    Businessman says he has a Chinese jet on standby in case Icelandic government green-lights asylum

    The same Scandi crowd that gave Obama a Nobel Peace Prize merely in the hope Obama would give this country the comeuppance they think it so richly deserves may give Snowden an out.

    This thing was always going to end one of three ways once Snowden left the country. He goes to a country that needs what he has to sell to aid it against us, he goes to a country that enjoys watching the US harmed by Snowden’s revelations even if it gets nothing out of the deal, or he would be forced to return.

    The role of the Obama administration in this needs to be examined. The question I have is why did they file charges so soon? Which is the same question I had when they filed charges so quickly against Joker Tsarnaev.

    Obviously it was to set a sequence of events in motion.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  12. i don’t see why he should be charged with anything when Leon Panetta blew in SEAL Team 6 for partisan political gain, which resulted in the operators getting killed, and he’s still walking around a free man.

    resistance to tyrants is obedience to G*d.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/21/2013

    Right on both points

    Dustin (e5e0b7)

  13. Only a LIBTARD or an IDIOT would give kudos to a man who took American Secrets and gave them willingly to the Chinese. Either way, I’d love to meet Mr Snowden and knock his teeth down his throat. Then I’d thank him for his service to our nation.

    Gus (694db4)

  14. I wonder if the next Peace Prize will be shared by Snowden, Manning and Assange. I am willing to bet, however, that they never give out a prospective prize again.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  15. Kevin, you forgot Bashir Assad.

    Gus (694db4)

  16. 9. i don’t see why he should be charged with anything when Leon Panetta blew in SEAL Team 6 for partisan political gain, which resulted in the operators getting killed, and he’s still walking around a free man.

    resistance to tyrants is obedience to G*d.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/21/2013 @ 6:48 pm

    It’s possible to think Snowden needs to be charged simply because of the weight of the evidence against him and at the same time think it’s a travesty Panetta and others aren’t being charged.

    You guys who think Snowden is a hero do realize he’ll keep damaging the US for years with his revelations. Revelations which will have nothing to do with domestic spying.

    That’s the price of his freedom. You know that, right?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  17. Steve, LIBTARDS and IDIOTS think with their emotions. Snowden is a pile of shit. I’m not upset about his whistle blowing, I am upset that he went to China. His MOTIVES are not PURE.

    Gus (694db4)

  18. I am willing to bet, however, that they never give out a prospective prize again.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/21/2013 @

    LOL

    Dustin (e5e0b7)

  19. “Kevin, you forgot Bashir Assad.”

    Gus – I hear the Taliban and Muslim Brotherhood are in the running this year as well.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  20. What about Arafat?? Can they give it posthumously??
    He could be a 2 time winner!!

    I guess that expresses the absurdity of the whole gig.

    Maybe Bill Ayers could “apply”.

    Gus (694db4)

  21. There was a guy commenting on this blog who used to royally p-off people by calling them “Zimmerman fans” or taunt them with “your hero Zimmerman” when all people really sought was the truth, to understand who Zimmerman and Trayvon were, and to learn what led to their unfortunate meeting and the shot that was fired that night. It was a struggle to get at the truth because the usual narrative was being guided and provided by the usual narrative makers, there was much conflicting and erroneous information being reported, and the media and law enforcement seemed to have an agenda which was not necessarily consistent with finding the truth.

    elissa (709869)

  22. Well the method hasn’t changed elissa;

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/06/21/Number-Seven-NBC-News-Caught-Again-Selectively-Editing-Video

    it’s hard to believe any party to this exercise, unlike with the plots uncovered in the Bush administration, they have to stretch the facts to
    make their claims true, OTOH, Snowden is a slimy weasel.

    narciso (3fec35)

  23. i did not approve this

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  24. Look on the bright side, happyfeet. Steve57 agrees with you for once.

    The question I have is why did they file charges so soon? Which is the same question I had when they filed charges so quickly against Joker Tsarnaev.

    It could be that until charges are filed the government has little or no authority to forcibly deprive you of your freedom. Just a wild guess.

    nk (875f57)

  25. this is no good

    this tells everyone to keep their mouth shut about our pathetic-assed little country’s burgeoning fascist tendencies

    this is how hitlers get started

    it’s that bad

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  26. ALARM hello

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  27. He should be tried, but getting a conviction? Isn’t there something about not being ordered to break the laws/constitution? Something that came out of Nuremberg back in 1946/47?

    And then we have the FBI/DOJ outright lying to congress or covering up things.

    More and more people are already thinking that the United States is on the verge of descending into a full blown police state, especially since information is coming out on how FISA courts seem to rubber stamp the requests.

    John Smith (7f9827)

  28. The Evil Empire strikes.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  29. 12. “The same Scandi crowd that gave Obama a Nobel Peace Prize”

    Perhaps its like an Eskimo considering the snow on his mukluk but one Scandi could never be confused with another when you get beyond their perfect English.

    gary gulrud (aac551)

  30. Actually for the rest of us Pitcairn or Rapa Nui(Easter Island) would be a good move:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/10133077/World-Health-Organisation-calls-emergency-meeting-to-respond-to-SARS-like-outbreak.html

    Note: “One month to Ramadan”.

    gary gulrud (aac551)

  31. once King had a Dream
    now 0bama has a Drone
    how far we’ve fallen

    Colonel Haiku (26fb60)

  32. Once I had a secret job
    That ate the heart right out of me
    All too soon my coscience said
    Edward, get your ass free.

    So I told it to Glenn Greenwald
    And I told it to the Guardian
    And they told it to America
    And to Russia and to China.

    I shouted it from the rooftops
    The highest in Hong Kong
    And now they’ve come to get me
    I knew it wouldn’t take long.

    Maybe I’ll get to Iceland
    Although I’m not so sure
    But my work here is done
    My secret job is no secret anymore.

    nk (875f57)

  33. Snowden is a total hero.

    And my god.

    Britain’s spy agency GCHQ has secretly gained access to the network of cables which carry the world’s phone calls and internet traffic and has started to process vast streams of sensitive personal information which it is sharing with its American partner, the National Security Agency (NSA).

    By 2010, two years after the project was first trialled, it was able to boast it had the “biggest internet access” of any member of the Five Eyes electronic eavesdropping alliance, comprising the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    The Guardian understands that a total of 850,000 NSA employees and US private contractors with top secret clearance had access to GCHQ databases.

    So much for freedom.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  34. What pisses me off, Former Conservative, is that we have had “unlawful combatant” ass-backwards for the last dozen years or so. The unlawful combatants are the ones with uniforms, badges, and pretty holgraphic ID cards.

    nk (875f57)

  35. He could try defense of others like Nidal Hassan,

    i don’t see why he should be charged with anything when Leon Panetta blew in SEAL Team 6 for partisan political gain, which resulted in the operators getting killed, and he’s still walking around a free man.

    You guys who think Snowden is a hero do realize he’ll keep damaging the US for years with his revelations. Revelations which will have nothing to do with domestic spying.

    The comments above are why I have a hard time being either sympathetic with or fully resentful towards Snowden. I feel like I’m walking the narrow, hazy line of moral relativism, where whichever reaction I have can easily change based upon the overall context.

    But I try to guess what my current opinion would be if the White House and government (including military) of 2013 were being managed by sensible, decent people instead of all the loony liberals and loony liberalism in this era of Obama’s Nidal-Hasan-ized (or “goddamn”) America. I sense I’d still find my anti-big-brother, anti-mindless-bureaucrat, anti-reckless-bureaucracy reaction kicking in and I’d be not much less resentful about the type of overreach that Snowden has revealed. I’d still perceive him as being the proverbial canary in the coal mine.

    There was a guy commenting on this blog who used to royally p-off people by calling them “Zimmerman fans”

    I forgot his screen name, but what really irritated me about the person who I believe you’re referring to is when he indicated he resided in a safe, comfy, homogenous little Midwestern suburb, where he never bothered to lock his doors and windows at night. That poster wasn’t a “limousine liberal” in general, but he sure as hell was exactly that when it came to the case of Zimmerman vs Martin.

    Mark (67e579)

  36. And indictments of IRS agents for their criminal political obstruction … crickets.

    SPQR (768505)

  37. Wolfking Awesomefox mood music:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  38. Back at you with a real ‘Merican song, daleyrocks.

    nk (875f57)

  39. There’s a surrealistic, strangely unpleasant quality about this time in modern history—from the US to Mexico, from France to Greece, from Japan to Brazil. Sort of like a series of incidents where life is imitating art (and bad art, at that), or where what might have been unlikely or absurd — or in the category of “tin-foil hat” time — in the past is no longer necessarily as easily dismissed or laughed at.

    businessinsider.com, June 21, 2013:

    About 15 hours before dying in a fiery car crash a t about 4:30 a.m. in L.A. on June 17, journalist Michael Hastings sent an email to several colleagues that said the FBI was investigating him and he was “onto a big story.” The 33-year-old had been working as a BuzzFeed writer and Rolling Stone contributing editor at the time of his death. The subject line of the email, obtained by Los Angeles news station KTLA, was “FBI investigation, re: NSA.”

    Here’s the full text:

    Hey [words blurred out] — the Feds are interviewing my “close friends and associates.” Perhaps if the authorities arrive “BuzzFeed GQ”, er HQ, may be wise to immediately request legal counsel before any conversations or interviews about our news-gathering practices or related journalism issues. Also: I’m onto a big story, and need to go off the [radar] for a bit. All the best, and hope to see you all soon.

    – – – – –
    Staff Sgt. Joseph Biggs, who met Hastings when he was embedded in Biggs’ unit in Afghanistan, described the email as “very panicked.” “It alarmed me very much,” Biggs told KTLA. “I just said it doesn’t seem like him. I don’t know, I just had this gut feeling and it just really bothered me.”

    The FBI has denied it was ever investigating Hastings, and police do not suspect foul play in his death.

    No other vehicles were involved in the crash, and officials are working to determine whether the car Hastings was driving had any mechanical problems. Hastings’ car, which was reportedly going very fast, burst into flames as it crashed into a tree.

    businessinsider.com, June 22, 2013: The movement to pardon Edward Snowden — the self-admitted NSA leaker, whose documents dumps have lead to a broad discussion about domestic surveillance — has grown large enough to get 100,000 signatures on a White House petition to pardon him. According to the terms of petition at The White House, 100,000 signatures within 30 days is the minimum threshold for a response, so this should qualify theoretically.

    businessinsider.com, June 22: No European country is becoming more dispirited and disillusioned faster than France. In just the past year, the public mood has soured dramatically across the board. The French are negative about the economy, with 91% saying it is doing badly, up 10 percentage points since 2012. They are negative about their leadership: 67% think President Francois Hollande is doing a lousy job handling the challenges posed by the economic crisis, a criticism of the president that is 24 points worse than that of his predecessor, Nicolas Sarkozy. The French are also beginning to doubt their commitment to the European project, with 77% believing European economic integration has made things worse for France, an increase of 14 points since last year. And 58% now have a bad impression of the European Union as an institution, up 18 points from 2012. (Tyler Durden, Zero Hedge)

    France is on its way to becoming the new Greece. In 20 years, the Harvard Business School will do a case study on what not to do when faced with a massive fiscal crisis. France and Hollande will be Exhibit #1.

    Mark (67e579)

  40. nk – I think this is a better fit:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHNsRZ8iqFc

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  41. he is not culpobable I don’t think cause of what the nsa is doing is against the rules as normal people understand them

    normal people like you and me

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  42. 25. It could be that until charges are filed the government has little or no authority to forcibly deprive you of your freedom. Just a wild guess.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/21/2013 @ 10:58 pm

    He’s in China, nk. The USG has zero authority to forcibly deprive him of his freedom while he’s in China. Filing the charges doesn’t improve the situation. In many respects it undoubtedly gives the government even less leverage to ever be in the position to do so.

    Now that the charges have been filed the Chinese have something solid to work with in order to grant Snowden asylum. Snowden just has to assert he’d face a political prosecution if he’s sent back to the US.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  43. 43. he is not culpobable I don’t think cause of what the nsa is doing is against the rules as normal people understand them

    normal people like you and me

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/22/2013 @ 12:05 pm

    You don’t want the US government to be able to monitor encrypted Russian leadership satellite communications? Because if you don’t you’re not normal. That’s what NSA is supposed to be doing.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  44. “Snowden just has to assert he’d face a political prosecution if he’s sent back to the US.”

    Wolfking Awesomefox just became a potential MARTYR FOR FREEDUMB becuz information needs to be free!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  45. The unbearable awesomeness of Awesomefox is unbearable.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  46. Yes, daley, it is unbearable. And it looks like it’s going to unbearable for a long, long time.

    Via HotAir:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/22/us-usa-security-snowden-hongkong-idUSBRE95L02X20130622

    Snowden extradition battle in Hong Kong could go on for years

    I really don’t see what the hurry was to charge Snowden. He can only stay in Hong Kong a maximum of 90 days unless he applies to their immigration for an extension and it’s granted. Why couldn’t the DoJ just built a case against him for a couple of months instead of starting a years-long s***storm?

    I imagine the CHICOMs are rolling on the floor laughing at us because of what the USG is going to have to reveal to a PRC court in order to make its espionage case against Snowden. Yes, it’s the Hong Kong SAR of the PRC but if you believe that makes a difference I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  47. Every cloud has a little silver lining. A flustered Nancy Pelosi gets booed and heckled at Netroots Nation conference and it makes the news.

    elissa (b84065)

  48. /nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-reveals-new-us-hacking-accusations/

    I was naive enough to think the amorality of PRC China was a big reason it would be doing a lot of excessive, needless snooping, while we in the US wouldn’t. I recall debating with someone last year that a key difference between China and the West was this part of the world wasn’t as hitched to a sliding scale of right and wrong, that we weren’t as beholden to the bankruptcy of moral equivalency (so fashionable on college campuses throughout America and Europe).

    Now it suddenly occurs to me that much of the modern-day liberalism (stuffed with amorality) washing over the Western World, including America, makes the industrialized world (the First World–the West in particular) a bit more similar to the emerging world (eg, PRC China or Russia) than was the case in the past.

    usatoday.com, Glenn Reynolds, June 17, 2013: As Peggy Noonan observes: “It is a great irony, and history will marvel at it, that the president most committed to expanding the centrality, power, prerogatives and controls of the federal government is also the president who, through lack of care, arrogance and an absence of any sense of prudential political boundaries, has done the most in our time to damage trust in government.”

    Well, maybe it’s ironic. Or maybe there’s less of a contradiction between wanting to expand government power and being willing to abuse it than Noonan thinks. If it’s ironic, it’s because one argument we heard from Democrats during the Bush era was that Republicans — because they distrust big government — are inherently unsuited to run a big government, prone to incompetence because they don’t respect the institutions they control.

    But it’s the Obama administration that has demonstrated a disrespect for institutions. When Obama had been in office for just a few months, he “joked” about auditing his enemies and I warned: “Mr. Obama has been accused of not appreciating the importance of financial capital to the proper functioning of the economy. But ill-chosen remarks like his ASU audit threat suggest that he also doesn’t appreciate the role of moral capital.”

    ^ Another irony is evident too. IOW, the left not only has made the specter of big government more frightening, but it has also made a conservative like me far less sure about whether the US — and certainly the Western World in general — is as politically and morally reliable and decent as I might have assumed it to be in the past. Call it a reverse of Michelle Obama-ism, in which for the first time in one’s life, one may have qualms about being proud of this nation.

    Mark (67e579)

  49. “A flustered Nancy Pelosi gets booed and heckled at Netroots Nation conference and it makes the news.”

    elissa – I saw that. How could those tolerant, compassionate, multiculti progressives do that to poor old grannymcrictusbotoxface for goodness sakes?

    That mad me sad.

    Not really.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. there’s a place

    for edward

    somewhere a place

    for edward

    peace and quiet and open air wait for ed

    somewheres

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  51. I imagine the CHICOMs are rolling on the floor laughing at us because of what the USG is going to have to reveal to a PRC court in order to make its espionage case against Snowden.

    I would love to see Holder’s minions trying their “least untruthful statements” on a Chinese court. I would love even more to have the Chinese issue a warrant for Holder for subornation of perjury. If they can build our TVs why can’t we outsource our malfeasors to them too?

    nk (875f57)

  52. He’s in China, nk. The USG has zero authority to forcibly deprive him of his freedom while he’s in China. Filing the charges doesn’t improve the situation. In many respects it undoubtedly gives the government even less leverage to ever be in the position to do so.

    Now that the charges have been filed the Chinese have something solid to work with in order to grant Snowden asylum. Snowden just has to assert he’d face a political prosecution if he’s sent back to the US.

    I could point out that foreign governments in the past have honored our warrants and cooperated with the FBI to arrest and render American criminals in their territory. We don’t know if the Chinese are one, if we don’t ask. I could also point out that our fighter planes have forced down airplanes carrying wanted criminals to the nearest friendly nation for the FBI to arrest. But I won’t because you already know everything.

    nk (875f57)

  53. You guys who think Snowden is a hero do realize he’ll keep damaging the US for years with his revelations. Revelations which will have nothing to do with domestic spying.

    Comment by Steve57 (ab2b34) — 6/21/2013 @ 7:25 pm

    Steve sure has a high opinion of Ed’s espionage skills. Or is that a low opinion of the thousands of workers party members employed by Obama’s snoop agency?
    The parts that are being damaged are an obamanation, a stink in the nostrels of free people, and inimicable to the constitution. Damaging the NSA is a step on the right track.
    Destroying it altogether is destiny.

    That’s the price of his freedom. You know that, right?

    Small price to pay for our freedom. You know that, right?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  54. 55. But I won’t because you already know everything.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/22/2013 @ 3:42 pm

    Everything? No. But enough about this to know the USG is putting itself in a ludicrous situation.

    They charged Snowden with theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communications of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person.

    I’d be curious to know what person in their right mind would walk into a PRC courtroom and even attempt to do what’s necessary to prove any of that?

    Hong Kong has extradited many people back to the US. But never has the USG ever set about to attempt to extradite anyone by making the case that accused has too high of an intelligence or national defense value for the PRC to go through with it.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  55. China’s extradition law on 2000. It looks at the charge, not the proof for it.

    nk (875f57)

  56. This is the treaty that applies, not the law you cite.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-105erpt2/html/CRPT-105erpt2.htm

    Because of Hong Kong’s unique status, the Agreement was signed by Hong Kong with the “authorization” of its sovereign nation (People’s Republic of China (PRC)) following a negotiation conducted under the auspices of the “Joint Liaison Group” (JLG) established by the Sino-British Joint Declaration on the Question of Hong Kong. 1 The People’s Republic of China approved the text of the Agreement in September, permitting the U.S. and Hong Kong to sign in December. The Government of the People’s Republic of China transmitted a diplomatic note to the United States on March 31, 1997, affirming that the Agreement will continue to apply to the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) after July 1, 1997, when Hong Kong formally reverted to the PRC.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  57. Of interest from the above treaty:

    Article 8(3) states that if the fugitive is a person who has not yet been convicted of the crime for which surrender is requested, the requesting Party must provide a copy of the arrest warrant, and “such evidence as, according to the law of the requested Party, would justify his committal for trial if the offense had been committed within the jurisdiction of the requested Party.” This is consistent with fundamental extradition jurisprudence in the United States, under which
    this language is interpreted to require countries seeking extradition from the U.S. to provide evidence establishing probable cause. 29 However, Hong Kong under its current law requires prima facie evidence of guilt in order to either extradite a fugitive, or to commit a case for trial in Hong Kong. During the negotiations, the Hong Kong delegation indicated that Hong Kong does not plan to change this evidentiary standard for either extradition, or committal for trial. Consequently, U.S. requests to Hong Kong for the
    surrender of fugitives will likely require prima facie evidence even after the Agreement enters into force, i.e., the same quantum of evidence we provide under the current extradition treaty.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  58. Fine. Same thing, fugitives who have been charged.

    And I’m glad to see that he left China (per your comment #45) and is now back in Hong Kong. Sigh.

    nk (875f57)

  59. Sorry, premature commenting. Didn’t see that section.

    nk (875f57)

  60. Interesting that the former State Department legal advisor, and deputy white house counsel, is now the choice for CIA deputy director,

    narciso (3fec35)

  61. So, per Gateway Pundit, the IRS sent millions in refunds for illegals to one address in Atlanta.

    The Senate Immigration Bill gives permanent amnesty to all illegals, irrespective of their crimes.

    First Hermaphrodite can nix any border security.

    Dog will block fracking on all Federal lands.

    10-year T-bill yield is now 2.51%.

    But around here its all Snowden, all the time.

    Nice country you had there, lepers.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  62. Wow, gary, thanks for letting the rest of us know what else is going on in the world.

    I wish I could tell you that that list of topics told me something new to make you feel like you have a point about the rest of us focusing on Snowden to the exclusion of everything else. I just can’t.

    It might interest you to know that over the course of the past week I’ve written and called my Representative and my Senators to urge them to oppose passing the immigration bill.

    I managed to do that, work, pay bills, follow other news stories.

    Your point again?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  63. ‘It’s a madhouse’ question though, unless Snowden is fluent, how would he know what’s on the servers, same with the Medvedev transcripts.

    narciso (3fec35)

  64. Actually I included points 2 and 3 in my communications with my Congressional delegation. I also mentioned the fact that the CBO said amnesty would drive wages down, unemployment up, and in addition wouldn’t stop illegal immigration at all making follow on rounds of amnesty necessary.

    But that’s a nice strawman you had there, leper.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  65. 65. You are a peach 57.

    I got my letter to Representative Bachmann months ago. I believe it might have helped.

    Crucifying Snowden will indeed lower Dog’s poll numbers with Millenials further, that is positive.

    Like he gives a rip. It might even move the writ of martial law forward a few. Invest in fire-retardant foam.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  66. 66.‘It’s a madhouse’ question though, unless Snowden is fluent, how would he know what’s on the servers, same with the Medvedev transcripts.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/22/2013 @ 8:14 pm

    I doubt he’d have any actual transcripts of Medvedev’s secure communications just traffic analysis. Recall Snowden released documentation that NSA detected new patterns in how the Russian leadership communicates. Still extremely valuable.

    Clearly Snowden stole quite a bit of intelligence that has nothing to do with domestic spying, intelligence that he himself has acknowledged to his press contacts is worth a lot of money, simply to increase his resale value on the global market.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  67. Governments the world over will be gone in a few short years. Ours will certainly change beyond recognition.

    Survivors are the order of the hour.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  68. Chillbilly Henny Penny – There is always the option of starting your own blog if Patterico is not writing about what you want him to write about.

    You and Bad Clams could start one and call it the Dynamic Dyspeptic Duo or something.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  69. Steve57, I’m not sure I see an advantage in waiting to file charges against Snowden.

    On the other hand, until charges were filed against Snowden, he was free to travel about the world without encumbrance.

    I’m guessing that a “red notice” has now been filed with Interpol, which was not possible absent formal charges. This will make it much more difficult for him to cross national borders.

    Calfed (5b899d)

  70. 68. Thanks for the link. This government is beyond justification, amelioration or defense.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  71. Drudge is hinting that there’s another Bob Menendez scandal coming down the pike. So along with all this week’s stuff, and hawkey, there’s something new to look forward to.

    elissa (b84065)

  72. The Guardian just released more FISA court secrets, none of which Snowden could have been the source.

    Scandalgeddon is a volley against Fascism on our soil.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  73. A slightly different argument;

    I’m not the biggest fan of the argument that all the money spent on NSA would have saved, or will save, far more lives compared with foiling acts of terrorism because of the assumption that funds re-directed to do-gooder government programs and initiatives will help more people. However, I do think parts of the so-called military-industrial complex (which to me includes national security) have become bloated and top heavy, so you won’t find me sympathizing with Republicans/conservatives who boo-hoo about cuts to the Defense Department.

    More crucially, my own increasingly cynical view of the way The Powers That Be (TBTB) are treating Snowden is that they’re drunk with Obama-itis liberalism. That they have the gall to treat infamous characters like Nidal Hasan as though they’re victims of “workplace violence.” That they certainly didn’t exactly prevent a Boston Marathon bombing because of their sharing the liberal lunacy of a Michael Bloomberg, who originally theorized the attempted bombing of Times Square a few years ago was the work of a member of the Tea Party.

    Mark (67e579)

  74. 75. Although a sports analogy could be made an easier one would be that of an organism with a terminal illness.

    Say bone cancer in the femur. Yeah losing a leg at the hip would really bite, but wasting time, money and spirit with a couple rounds of chemo may be both tempting and futile.

    The prognosis for the treatment doesn’t bode well. If metastasis isn’t discovered get it over with.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  75. Calfed, I don’t even know if it’s possible to make the extradition case against Snowden in Hong Kong given the charges against him. They’d have to have something roughly analogous to the Espionage Act of 1917, which are the most serious charges. It depends on whether or not Hong Kong’s official Secrets Act is really analogous to our law.

    Even to prove the theft of government property charge will require the government to justify to the Hong Kong court’s satisfaction its valuation of what Snowden stole as per my reading of the treaty Snowden can be extradited over a misdemeanor.

    The Hong Kong Extradition Agreement identifies an extraditable offense as either a crime enumerated in a long list of covered felonies (punishable by imprisonment of more than one year), or any other offense that is punishable by imprisonment of more than one year by both the requesting and requested Party 3 (Art. 2(1)).

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/641

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; but if the value of such property in the aggregate, combining amounts from all the counts for which the defendant is convicted in a single case, does not exceed the sum of $1,000, he shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

    The word “value” means face, par, or market value, or cost price, either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater.

    I just can’t imagine how it’s worth going to a PRC court and demonstrating to their satisfaction that this classified information really US property, and then doing whatever is necessary to justify it’s value to the USG as exceeding $1000, as a worthwhile use of tax dollars. Let alone whatever will be necessary to prove it really is classified communications intelligence and national defense information.

    Hong Kong is required to share intelligence and national defense information with the Beijing government. The notion that Hong Kong and the rest of China are “one country, two systems” has been a farce for a long time. But in this case the way I see it the differences that do exist between Hong Kong’s legal system and the PRC’s work to Snowden’s advantage and not the USG’s.

    Which is why considering Snowden has already been there 30 days I don’t see the point of not waiting another 60 and seeing what happens. It’s not good, but I don’t see how the DoJ improved the situation by taking this step.

    Obviously I’m not looking at this from purely a legal point of view. The way I see it the USG, not Snowden, is now in the position of proving to the PRC or other interested observers who might offer him asylum that he really is the source of the leaks and that the information he has (whether with him personally or under his control) is genuine.

    That was one of his concerns when he talked to the press. He had to prove his bona fides if he wanted to gain asylum. Now he doesn’t have to. The DoJ is going to do it for him.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  76. “If Hong Kong doesn’t act soon, it will complicate our bilateral relations and raise questions about Hong Kong’s commitment to the rule of law,” a senior Obama administration official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

    lolcat moment indeed

    failmerica is threatening china?

    lol

    all china has to do is whisper that it doesn’t want to buy fascist failmerican junk bonds anymores

    and they know it

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  77. I can’t agree with you on this. To leave him uncharged for another 60 days would serve no purpose. It would make the Government’s case appear even weaker if they delayed charging him. Particularly if no additional evidence or criminality was found in those 60 days.

    And as I said, as long as Snowden remained uncharged, he remained free to travel. As it is now, if the Justice Department has filed the appropriate stops with Interpol, he may find it very difficult to travel.

    Your objections to an immediate charging of Snowden really have little bearing on the objections you raise.

    You claim that it may not even be possible to make an extradition case against Snowden. Perhaps, perhaps not…but that really has nothing to do with the question of filing a criminal complaint against him sooner rather than later. Ultimately the complaint will be superseded by an indictment anyway and I’m betting that will happen before any formal extradition hearing occurs.

    At best, your argument seems to be against any attempt to extradite Snowden.

    As for handing Snowden some kind of gift by charging him and thereby making his information credible, ehh. I doubt that he would have any trouble establishing that his information was credible…Good God, Keith Alexander has as much as confirmed it in his Congressional testimony.

    Calfed (5b899d)

  78. Who gives a crap about the government’s case against Edward Snowden, Calfed? America is slipping away into a techno-fascist surveillance (highly-militarized) police state. I think that’s a bit more important.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  79. a wee bit yup yup

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  80. So, per Gateway Pundit, the IRS sent millions in refunds for illegals to one address in Atlanta.

    The Senate Immigration Bill gives permanent amnesty to all illegals, irrespective of their crimes.

    First Hermaphrodite can nix any border security.

    Dog will block fracking on all Federal lands.

    10-year T-bill yield is now 2.51%.

    But around here its all Snowden, all the time.

    gary gulrud,

    I cheerfully accept tips at the email address on the sidebar. They are especially appreciated when I am in a month-long murder trial followed immediately by a multi-day murder preliminary hearing. Blogging (and reading) time tends to get limited during such periods.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  81. sometimes when you’re in a month-long murder trial followed immediately by a multi-day murder preliminary hearing what you have to say is chop chop people time’s a wastin’ let’s git this show on the road

    you have to say it with conviction

    hah get it conviction

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  82. Calfed,

    To go in reverse order why would Snowden have to establish his information as credible? Snowden wouldn’t have to prove one thing or another about the government’s case against him. That would be the responsibility of the USG that wants to extradite him. I strongly doubt NSA Director Alexander’s testimony supplied by C-SPAN is likely to put the government over the top in Hong Kong.

    I see your point that if the DoJ didn’t charge him immediately that would weaken their case against Snowden. But clearly you are talking about in a US court. First you’ve got to get him there, and that means getting him out of Hong Kong. I think the charges against Snowden make that less likely.

    My objection isn’t to any attempt to extradite Snowden. My objection is to taking premature actions in any attempt to extradite Snowden. Especially in a jurisdiction in which it’s likely to fail. Admittedly I may be getting ahead of myself as the US hasn’t started trying to extradite Snowden. They’ve just charged him. But I fear these particular charges may work against extraditing Snowden.

    If you read the extradition treaty with Hong Kong, a fugitive can be extradited for one of two reasons. Either the felony is specifically mentioned in the list. Or it’s recognized as a criminal offense in both countries.

    Since the government has charged Snowden with offenses that aren’t enumerated in the treaty (except possibly the theft charge) I really don’t see the point in charging him with those crimes at this point in time.

    The way the treaty is written we’d be violating it if we prosecuted Snowden for anything other than the crime(s) for which Hong Kong agreed to extradite him. (Unless the crime is a lesser included offense, and that lesser included offense has to be a crime that in itself can result in Hong Kong agreeing to extradite the fugitive.) I don’t see how any US court could object to the DoJ building a case that both would lead to Snowden’s extradition and conviction. As opposed to what I see as a premature action that’s more likely to lead a Hong Kong court to conclude the USG is arguing in bad faith. That the DoJ intends to prosecute him on charges for which Hong Kong wouldn’t agree to extradite him.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  83. My bad, Calfed. Or, rather, if it’s my bad it’s possibly our bad.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/22/us-usa-security-snowden-charges-idUSBRE95K18220130622

    (Reuters) – The United States said on Saturday it wants Hong Kong to extradite Edward Snowden and urged it to act quickly, paving the way for what could be a lengthy legal battle to prosecute the former National Security Agency contractor on espionage charges.

    I said I may have gotten ahead of myself since as far as I knew the DoJ only charged Snowden and didn’t initiate extradition proceedings against him. On the other hand you said you believed the government would indict Snowden before there’d be any formal extradition hearing r.e. Snowden.

    The Obama administration may be on track to prove us both wrong in this regard.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  84. the sparrow has flown the coop;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-23019414

    narciso (3fec35)

  85. 86

    I see your point that if the DoJ didn’t charge him immediately that would weaken their case against Snowden. But clearly you are talking about in a US court. First you’ve got to get him there, and that means getting him out of Hong Kong. I think the charges against Snowden make that less likely.

    Looks like the charges (and extradition request) did get him out of Hong Kong.

    James B. Shearer (fc4608)

  86. I blame it on Michelle Obama declining to eat braised dog penis with Mrs. Xi Jinping in Los Angeles earlier this month.

    nk (875f57)

  87. We are not going to force down a Russian plane, that’s for sure too.

    nk (875f57)

  88. What wine goes with dog penis,nk?

    mg (31009b)

  89. Well the nets exploded with a mighty roar
    As he got on Aeroflot
    And Putin said to Edward Snowden
    Thank you for all the fun.

    Ed on the run!

    Hey happyfeet, I’m betting that Edward will not go to Iceland. He’s already Snowden enough.

    nk (875f57)

  90. Rice wine with a civet cat in it. It’s considered an aphrodisiac. Might not be the whole cat, though, just some parts.

    nk (875f57)

  91. I never should have asked.

    mg (31009b)

  92. Wonder if Castro will be there to greet him.

    Calfed (5b899d)

  93. Congratulations to Edward Snowden on leaving Hong Kong for a destination of his limited choice! I wish him (and his girlfriend if they reunite) all the best. Hopefully it’s away from the reach of the burgeoning tyranny he fled from after doing his best to alert its people to their nascent danger.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  94. Moving to Volodya, Raul and Maduro’s neighborhood yes that’s it.

    narciso (3fec35)

  95. to eat braised dog penis

    Speaking of male genitals, and based on the rumor mill indicating the guy now in the White House apparently liked being serviced by males in a Chicago bathhouse, I wonder if the NSA dug up any info that would formally verify that?

    businessinsider.com, June 22, 2013: Russ Tice worked as an offensive National Security Agency (NSA) agent from 2002 to 2005, before becoming a source for this Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times article exposing NSA domestic spying. This week he appeared on the Boiling Frogs Show and detailed how he had his hands “in the nitty-gritty, the nuts and bolts” during his 20 years as a U.S. intelligence analyst.

    Tice claimed that he held NSA wiretap orders targeting numerous members of the U.S. government, including one for a young senator from Illinois named Barack Obama.

    “In the summer of 2004, one of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with a forty-some-year-old senator from Illinois. You wouldn’t happen to know where that guy lives now would you? It’s a big White House in Washington D.C. That’s who the NSA went after. That’s the President of the United States now.”

    Tice added that he also saw orders to spy on Hillary Clinton, Senators John McCain and Diane Feinstein, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, Gen. David Petraeus, and a current Supreme Court Justice.

    “The abuse is rampant and everyone is pretending that it’s never happened, and it couldn’t happen. … I know [there was abuse] because I had my hands on the papers for these sorts of things: They went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of congress — Senate and the House — especially on the intelligence committees and the armed services committees, lawyers, law firms, judges, State Department officials, part of the White House, multinational companies, financial firms, NGOs, civil rights groups …”

    Incidentally, there is a theory out there that one reason (or THE reason) Justice John Roberts suddenly and oddly changed his position on Obamacare at the last minute — after reportedly being responsible for penning a good portion of the paper that would have nullified the legislation — was due to blackmail. In this age of the United States of Banana-Republic-America, I don’t discount the possibility or plausibility of that.

    Mark (67e579)

  96. In the summer of 2004, Obama wasn’t even a Senator yet, Mark, besides if they knew something important about him, it would have leaked, Edmond’s site, is a rich vein of crazy, so caveat emptor.

    narciso (3fec35)

  97. In the summer of 2004, Obama wasn’t even a Senator yet

    Narcisco, I wonder if Tice is describing a time frame when the NSA’s curiosity about Obama would have been triggered by his campaign for senator? Obama entered the US Senate several months later in January 2005, although it makes sense to theorize that if something nefarious about him had been detected, it presumably would have been leaked by now. Then again, notice how something as basic (and easily vetted) as his official published literary biography, which described his birthplace as Kenya, wasn’t known to the public until well after the “birther” controversy first hit the airwaves.

    Odd contradictions abound.

    As for the nature of spying on US citizens, that was a given during the era of J Edgar Hoover, back when technology we take for granted in 2013 did not exist and what the FBI relied upon was rather primitive. So imagine how much more more thorough and intrusive (and amoral) the snooping is today, during a time of whole new massive federal bureaucracies (including the NSA), PCs, smartphones, drones, etc, and a Nidal-Hasan-ized US government.

    Mark (67e579)

  98. I think Snowden should have to deal with whatever laws he may have broken but he isn’t the issue to me. The issue is the truth or falsity of what he has revealed.

    Call me naive but I believed the Bush Administration when it claimed it only targeted foreign communications or communications where one party was not a citizen. I also believed the Obama Administration when its officials (like DNI Clapper) made the same claims, but apparently that wasn’t true. Maybe the Bush Administration personnel lied, too — in spirit if not in fact — but I believe this is another program Obama inherited and expanded.

    Why does it matter? I think it matters because expanding government surveillance to every American’s communications is unnecessary, excessive, counterproductive, and a waste of resources. And, most of all, it opens the door to partisan abuse. An Administration that will use the IRS to abuse its opponents will undoubtedly use their communications to harass and intimidate them.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  99. And undermine them.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  100. Here’s a Washington Post link comparing Bush Administration surveillance policies with Obama Administration policies.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  101. As stated in the Washington Post article, this is what I think happened under the Bush Administration and what I thought was happening in the Obama Administration:

    Three months later, on July 15, the secret surveillance court allowed the NSA to resume bulk collection under the court’s own authority. The opinion, which remains highly classified, was based on a provision of electronic surveillance law, known as “pen register, trap and trace,” that was written to allow law enforcement officers to obtain the phone numbers of incoming and outgoing calls from a single telephone line.

    When the NSA aims for foreign targets whose communications cross U.S. infrastructure, it expects to sweep in some American content “incidentally” or “inadvertently,” which are terms of art in regulations governing the NSA. Contact chaining, because it extends to the contacts of contacts of targets, inevitably collects even more American data.

    Maybe this is what the Obama Administration/NSA is doing, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  102. “I think Snowden should have to deal with whatever laws he may have broken but he isn’t the issue to me.”

    Would you say the same about Soviet dissidents? Or do you think they were justified in fleeing and seeking asylum?

    Because I think the techno-fascist surveillance state is at least as dangerous as the Soviet Union long term — and whatever harm Snowden may have done is vastly outweighed by the good he did in bringing this to our front-and-center attention.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  103. Mark – I suggest caution when evaluating the claims of Russell Tice. That he is a favorite of the loony conspiracy theory left does not speak well of his pedigree or credibility. Look a little deeper.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  104. But I don’t think so.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  105. Former conservative,

    I’m not a former conservative so I think people who engage in civil disobedience or who are whistleblowers should have to deal with any laws they break.

    It takes courage and noble intentions to be a hero. That doesn’t mean there won’t be any consequences.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  106. What he did took courage, DRJ, and lots of it. I don’t think he was required to exhibit both courage and suicidal stupidity.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  107. “Maybe this is what the Obama Administration/NSA is doing, too.”

    DRJ – I think we heard General Alexander use the haystack/needle analogy in testimony to Congress last week. The metadata represents the haystack, but they do not exploit it or look for any needles intentionally with respect to any U.S. person unless they have permission from the FISA Court.

    I don’t believe any of the whistleblowers have proved otherwise, they have just asserted that the capability is present.

    General Alexander is saying the haystack is just a pile of data that lies dormant unless they need to look for specific data. Whether people believe him is an entirely different question, but the same meta data collection issue came up during the Bush Administration and the workaround has not been explained.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. “I don’t think he was required to exhibit both courage and suicidal stupidity.”

    Former Conservative – What did Bradley Manning exhibit?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  109. Well, courage in a sense, daleyrocks, but what Bradley Manning did got several valuable intel sources killed and others had to flee in a shooting war that he had personally signed up for, knowing about the war.

    So it’s a lot different than exposing spying on the American people and collecting all their private IMs, file transfers, voice and video calls, etc., don’t you think?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  110. Even just take one thing: Facebook.

    WHY does the government need every facebook post archived, regardless of the person’s privacy settings, and all of their private messages as well?

    Snowden was right to tell people about this — and smart to flee.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  111. “So it’s a lot different than exposing spying on the American people and collecting all their private IMs, file transfers, voice and video calls, etc., don’t you think?”

    Former Conservative – I don’t think you’ve provided an accurate description of what Snowden has exposed with respect to the American people. You’ve described what he claims are the capabilities of our intelligence services. At the same time you’ve ignored his disclosures about our external espionage activities, which would definitely fall into the same category as Manning’s disclosures.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  112. I haven’t ignored that, daleyrocks, I’ve addressed it elsewhere.

    Even if Snowden was a Russian spy trained and raised in Moscow and inserted into American society as a teenager feeding back every bit of info back to his handlers (which he wasn’t or there’s no way in hell they would have had him blow his cover now), then the damage he did in his position is still far less than the good he did in forcing this all-important debate into public consciousness.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  113. Anyway, daleyrocks, did you see the recent Guardian expose on the British GCHQ surveillance operation, which apparently is the largest?

    They have NSA analysts by the boatfull working with them and vice versa. It appears likely they are doing this to get around laws in domestic spying in both cases.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  114. He wants Equador. U.S. dollar is the official currency there. Lots of Americans retiring there. Nice climate.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  115. One interesting thing we know is that Snowden broke his promise to the American people by sharing our espionage efforts with those foreign (and in many ways hostile) targets of that espionage.

    He obviously lacks integrity. That doesn’t mean everything he said was a lie, and I don’t think that’s the case, but only a fool would take Snowden at his word, given what he’s done. Just for helping the abhorrent government of China means he does need to face some serious consequences.

    As DRJ has noted, the issue isn’t Snowden, but the NSA’s activities. We should soberly get to the bottom of them, but Snowden also shouldn’t be lionized by the naive. former conservative asserts, with zero evidence, that the damage Snowden did is far less than the good, but everything Snowden said was already reported, so that seems premature at best and trolling at worst.

    Dustin (303dca)

  116. We don’t know what Snowden’s intentions are, Former Conservative. He says his concern is America and protecting American civil liberties, and that may be true. But I’ll reserve judgment until that’s clear.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  117. I wouldn’t take Snowden at his word, Dustin.

    “As DRJ has noted, the issue isn’t Snowden, but the NSA’s activities.”

    Totally.

    As for the rest, it depends on how much you value liberty, privacy, the constitution, I guess.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  118. in Ecuador, there you feel free

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  119. By the way, part of understanding someone’s intentions is understanding what they knew and whether they took reasonable steps to protect innocents parties (and, in Snowden’s case, what he did to protect American interests from being harmed by his revelations).

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  120. Tin pot dictatorships for $1000

    What is Ecuador with a Venezuelan mistress?

    SteveG (794291)

  121. Treason is part of the Constitution, too, Former Conservative.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  122. Remember it’s where Assuange is living now, also they just passed an ‘orwellian’ communications bill.

    narciso (3fec35)

  123. the interests of piggy piggy fascist NSA spy twats aren’t the same as American interests

    they’re different

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  124. To me if you don’t have those things, what’s left to protect?

    I mean even Russian troops in America won’t kill everybody, as long as their surveillance police state is obeyed.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  125. I don’t subscribe to Obama’s self-serving policy that every leak is treason, so I’m not saying Snowden is a traitor. However, he could be.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  126. “As DRJ has noted, the issue isn’t Snowden, but the NSA’s activities.”

    Former Conservative – Is that why you made Snowden rather than the NSA the subject of you first comment of the day?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  127. I’ll even go with it’s possible he’s both Traitor and yet even greater hero, which is ironic.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  128. Former Conservative – Is that why you made Snowden rather than the NSA the subject of you first comment of the day?

    I’m pretty sure this post was about Snowen’s being charged with espionage, daleyrocks. I have thoughts about the NSA too, of course. Also, I’d just learned the news about him having left Hong Kong. As far as I know, the NSA hadn’t recently moved.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  129. *Snowden’s

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  130. “Anyway, daleyrocks, did you see the recent Guardian expose on the British GCHQ surveillance operation, which apparently is the largest?”

    Look Squirrel!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  131. It’s hardly irrelevant, daleyrocks.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  132. Treason is part of the Constitution, too, Former Conservative.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/23/2013 @

    I’ve noticed that the constitution doesn’t matter as much to those who go so far as to define themselves by their not being conservative. As Mark might note, people tend to evolve in the other direction, intellectually, anyway. It matters to me that Snowden is not considered above the law just because his embarrassing Obama happens to be convenient to my politics. But I take the long view.

    the interests of piggy piggy fascist NSA spy twats aren’t the same as American interest

    One the one hand, absolutely. Then again, I am curious how many Americans agree with you. We’re rapidly becoming a nation with too much cowardice, where people will gladly be spied on and see their neighbor spied on because they are afraid. Not afraid of losing this country, which we practically have in a philosophical sense, but of a terrorist. Your appeal is too democratic for me, in other words.

    Just look at our unfunded liabilities. We know, and don’t care, as a country. That could be our new motto.

    Dustin (303dca)

  133. “I’m pretty sure this post was about Snowen’s being charged with espionage, daleyrocks.”

    Just trying to keep the goal posts close to the ground.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  134. I’ve noticed that the constitution doesn’t matter as much to those who go so far as to define themselves by their not being conservative.

    It does. But your bias doesn’t see that we value other parts of it too.

    Libertarians are kind of down with the constitution.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  135. Re: the GCHO surveillence operation–a number of years ago I spent a few weeks in the Cotswolds, and a few days in and around Cheltenham. The tour guide was an older woman, the perfect Brit in sweater and brogues, a retired university professor who had been a child during WWII. Her stories about growing up in Cheltenham which was Britain’s spy central were fascinating. She told how everybody’s parents (and she implied hers) were involved in some way in the intelligence gathering, analyzing, or subterfuge planning–yet nobody could talk about any of it and sort of pretended they did something else for a living. War, what war? She said birthday parties and cocktail parties were a hoot because all they could safely discuss were horses, dogs, cultivating roses, and Hollywood movies and the stars’ lives.

    Apparently Cheltenham remains important in these types of operations.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  136. “I’ve noticed that the constitution doesn’t matter as much to those who go so far as to define themselves by their not being conservative.”

    Dustin – You might be on to something. Lifelong former concerned christian conservatives can sometimes develop a fluid sense of situational ethics and morality, as well the law.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  137. happyfeet,

    I don’t think the dividing line is as clear as you imply. America has secrets, including some of the techniques we use to fight terrorism. I agree widespread domestic surveillance is very troublesome. I find it especially troublesome in the hands of an Administration that has repeatedly shown a willingness to disregard the Constitution and to target its opponents. But that doesn’t mean everything they’ve done is wrong — even though ultimately we may decide everything Obama has done is wrong, once we find out the facts.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  138. No one would say everything the NSA has done is wrong, DRJ. The point is much of it was, and scarily so, and Snowden told us about this.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  139. “Libertarians are kind of down with the constitution.”

    I thought they just wanted to do drugs.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  140. Dustin:

    We know, and don’t care, as a country. That could be our new motto.

    Hillary hopes it is.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  141. Former Conservative #143,

    Happyfeet thinks everything the NSA has done is wrong, and that’s just in this thread. There are others saying the same, and that everything Snowden has done is right. For now, I don’t think we know either for sure.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  142. “I thought they just wanted to do drugs.”

    I don’t, but people could legally do this for a long, long time. Now you need the government’s permission to buy a substance, and millions of people are locked up in jail over this, leading to more people per capita imprisoned in America than elsewhere, destroying countless lives and families.

    Yes. We see this as a both a tragedy and tyrannical.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  143. DRJ the NSA has squandered the vital trust upon which their legitimate activities have depended

    they lied and lied

    the NSA can’t be trusted with the powers they wield

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  144. Sooooo…,
    the fellow concerned about surveillance techniques in the US is on his way to have a discussion with…
    Vladimir Putin????
    After having had a chance to debrief with the Chinese?
    The problem with having spy connections with multiple countries is that somebody is bound to decide you can’t be trusted anymore.

    Although I think most people will readily decide he is a knucklehead out of his depth and will treat him as such.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  145. and no not everything the NSA fascist pigboys have done is wrong

    but if China kicks them in the nuts no skin off mine

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  146. feets,
    I am sure (not) that the NSA has been doing things that would shock, shock the administration if they knew…
    so if you changed those in charge of the NSA everything would be Ok…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  147. I think it’s the increasing elitism of America, Dustin. Elites from both parties want us to believe making leading the country is increasingly difficult, so only they can do it — essentially as benevolent dictators. This is directly contrary to the Founders’ belief in natural rights, the informed consent of the governed, and our Republic.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  148. DRJ, the starting assumption should be based on things we don’t know or can’t know, and what we can know and can provide for, which is the governments tendency to grasp for unlimited power, in this case the power than information gives, and our right to conduct our affairs without unreasonable invasion of our private dealings in our home and businesses (data, letters, transactions, contacts, associations).

    THe government should not have anything even a rough equivalent to a general warrant to rifle through our papers or homes or places of business, and that includes any telcomms or internet service providers we deal with. Setting clear limits, oversight, and creating cost to the government or its agents for violation is necessary.

    We know what they WOULD do if they COULD, and should act accordingly without reference to reliability or motives of persons like Snowden. In other words, no trust.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  149. I don’t think what China or Russia do to the NSA is done with the good of the American public in mind. Looking at the Chines and Russian spies as friends because they are the enemy of your enemy (Intel of the US) is I think not the wisest long term plan.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  150. happyfeet,

    The NSA can’t be trusted and, in fact, the government can’t be trusted. That’s not a shocking revelation. That’s the founding principle of America.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  151. Blast. “DRJ, the starting assumption shouldn’t be based on things we don’t know or can’t know, but what we can know and can provide for.”

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  152. Mr. Dr. I’m remindered how the CIA soroslickers took major amounts of time off from their gay porn marathons to kneecap America’s war efforts in Iraq

    changing leadership at these sorts of proto-fascist organizations is less meaningful than one would hope I think

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  153. well said DRJ

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  154. There is a problem, in some ways, the administration’s behavior makes transparency impossible, however some of these ‘whistleblowers’ are much less reckless in their dissemination of this information;

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/sarah-harrison-edward-snowdens-travel-companion-is-top-wikileaks-legal-defense-activist/

    narciso (3fec35)

  155. Sarahw,

    I think we agree, at least in part. I don’t agree with widespread domestic surveillance. Perhaps where we part company is that I think the government can “rifle through” the communications of foreigners and non-citizens, and that’s what I thought the government was doing. That might result in incidental or accidental access to American’s communications but all government actions can result in mistakes.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  156. So well stated by you, DRJ. The elite ruling classes’ “if you only knew what we know, you wouldn’t have the audacity to challenge us because we know what’s best.” Well, I’m paying the bills and I wanna know most of what you know.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  157. Some like Pillar, Drumheller, Grenier, Kirikaou et al, certainly did, some like Rodriguez, Martinez,
    did the right thing, the former had the ear of Rosenberg, Mayer and Priest.

    narciso (3fec35)

  158. Some things are really simple; maybe not easy, but simple.
    people who are entrusted with great authority and responsibility should be of trustworthy character, because they will need to deal with things we cannot know about,
    even if it was only sending messages back and forth to England and France in 1800.

    But instead the public as a whole has chosen to embrace charismatic leaders who are easily demonstrated as not trustworthy and deceived by their own arrogance and lust for power.

    I think it will take an outright miracle to get a skilled, wise, and trustworthy person elected to be president. Maybe it has always been this way, and just more obvious today.
    Of course, if one believes in outright miracles this is not terrible news.
    And if you don’t believe in a God that can still do miracles, then, as Dennis Prager asks, what do you believe in, the UN? (or the one?)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  159. The country’s balance of powers wasn’t based on miracles. It was based on two things.

    A proper balance of powers.

    A wise-ish electorate.

    I don’t see either anymore.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  160. MD,

    It doesn’t hurt to have Presidents of good character but IMO the real answer is a vigilant Congress, courts, press and public to hold them accountable.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  161. Apparently Former Conservative and I do agree on something: checks and balances.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  162. The country’s founding principals wasn’t based on miracles, I meant.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  163. The President can just offensive launch wars whenever he feels like more or less (and that’s just one example). There aren’t checks and balances to speak of in a constitutional sense.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  164. ==vigilant Congress, courts, press and public to hold them accountable.==

    And to be able to have true checks and balances and hold “them” accountable that especially entails congress and judges being told the truth about the programs– which has clearly not been the case. It is a very vicious scary circle of almost total secrecy in which the American people are the helpless victims.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  165. I think conservatives rationalize away the growing tyranny and think they’re “conservative” because they believe in following laws of an unconstitutional leviathan that is spying on them and militarizing all the police forces.

    I see this differently.

    And if you think the founders were conservative as you understand the term, I disagree. They were radical and largely libertarian.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  166. Former Conservative,

    The Founders were libertarians in an era when there was a universal moral (religious) code that governed society, and virtually everyone agreed with or at least acknowledged the code. That’s not the case today.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  167. I submit libertarianism doesn’t work as well when there is no universal moral code that governs public behavior and expectations.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  168. Even the deist Franklin asked the gathering to stop and pray during the debate over the Constitution, and I think on more than one occasion Washington did not give himself credit for brilliant startegy as a reason he won a battle or the war.

    And one could say it was a miracle that a group of people formed a government that took into consideration the basic fallenness of man and sought to deal with it, instead of some delusional view of human brilliance, intellect, and goodness.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  169. I submit that nothing works as well when there is no universal moral code that governs public behavior and expectations.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  170. “I submit libertarianism doesn’t work as well when there is no universal moral code that governs public behavior and expectations.”

    That’s one of the two points I raised here.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  171. Excellent points, MD and elissa.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  172. BUT … government paternalism and tyranny is NOT the way toward personal responsibility. At all.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  173. Do you suppose that metadata includes cell location data? There’s lots of information to grab without actually listening to phone calls, and probably more worrisome. You can guard what you say on the phone, but it is rather harder to guard where you are.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  174. I also don’t believe that with freedom, most people are going to say, “All hookers and heroin every day!”

    I mean take the war on drugs. It doesn’t work, forgetting the immorality of it.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  175. BTW, this Snowden travel thing reminds me of the school bullies grabbing the nebbish’s books and playing keep-away. Wonder who the nebbish is here.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  176. I figure it’s everything the phone providers have, Kevin M, which would include cell location data.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  177. Do you suppose that metadata includes cell location data?

    Yes, absolutely.

    When I worked in the industry, it was just which towers the call was bouncing off of that was tracked, which allowed real time triangulation. Now with GPS it’s known to within a few dozen feet or less.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  178. I submit that government schooling has gone a long way toward undermining the electorate’s self-sufficiency and self-control, by externalizing all this pressure (which they rebel against) yet giving them illusions that the government is the answer people’s problems.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  179. ^to

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  180. MD,

    Having studies the Convention at some length, you have it right. The people there were pretty much the Hellfire Club. They built a system that did not require trust or noticeable ethics to work. Which is a good thing because the next time we have a government free of scoundrels will be never.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  181. Kevin M,

    I agree the Founders understood how dangerous it is to trust government.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  182. Has David Gregory ever resembled Howdy Doody more than he did today in his MTP exchange with Greenwald? Talk about in the tank for an administration…

    Colonel Haiku (28511f)

  183. DRJ, FC, that was kind of rhetorical — I haven’t seen the suggestion in print yet though.

    BTW, you don’t need GPS to locate someone (e.g. time-difference-of-arrival, Doppler and delta-Doppler) given the timing/distance data the tower has to have to get things to work.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  184. Must be the bitterest pill ever being swallowed on a daily basis by the Left as they learn more and more about the Obama administrations malfeasance, sheer incompetence, and disregard of all that facilitates a civil society.

    Colonel Haiku (28511f)

  185. Talking to some of my Liberal friends, the most damning thing Obama has done was having to say “I am not Cheney!”. Echoes of 1973.

    They are now admitting that he is rapidly wearing out his welcome.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  186. Apparently the Adminsitration did not know what Snowden’s next move would be. Snowden has left Hong Kong for Moscow, and after that he is probably heading to Havana, with his ultimate destination being either Venezuala or Ecuador.

    Snowden has left the airport in Moscow, but his plans are probably only to stay there overnight.

    Snowden is actually closely associated with Wikileaks, whatever that really is.

    On the plane to Moscow were lawyers associated with Wikileaks and some foreign diplomats.

    It seems like maybe Hong Kong rejected the request temporarily on technical grounds, which bought a little time.

    He might not have been able to fly directly to Havana or Caracas, even if flights from Hong Kong take off there because he’d be put onan Interpol list.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  187. Snowden talked about Iceland so maybe that could be anotehr possibility, but the current government is not as friendly toward Wikipeaks as the previous ones was.

    It has to be udnerstood – there’s no way Snowden figured all this out on his own, especially if he really was a FOOL.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  188. Mark – I suggest caution when evaluating the claims of Russell Tice. That he is a favorite of the loony conspiracy theory left does not speak well of his pedigree or credibility. Look a little deeper.

    daleyrocks, we’re entering uncharted waters right now, sort of a Twilight Zone, where the paradigms of the past are shifting on a daily basis. I truly don’t have confidence in just about anyone and everyone (certainly in government) at this point in time. I don’t know who to trust or who to believe, which is why I suspect the ultimate truth lies scattered between those who feel resentful towards Snowden, those with mixed emotions, and those who applaud Snowden.

    The way I feel about Snowden is changing on a constant basis. But — again, when the federal government has become deranged from Obama-ism and our policymakers are foolish enough to not even realize that it’s best for the US to avoid supporting the Islamic-terrorist-sympathizing rebels in Syria — I admit to wondering who’s more dangerous to America in 2013: Edward Snowden or the cabal in DC.

    The following is from over 7 years ago. If anything, what Tice was warning about back them seems more solidly anchored today than before, even more so in this era of a Nidal-Hasan-ized US government, with someone like Barack “punish-your-enemies” Obama (instead of Bush) at the helm. This not only predates the debacle of ObamaNation, it also predates the ongoing scandal involving Benghazi, Solyndra, the IRS, etc.

    cbsnews.com, January 2006: President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants. But [longtime National Security Agency insider Russell] Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

    Tice was let go from the NSA last year. ABC News writes that he “is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department and the NSA in the post-9/11 efforts to go after terrorists.”

    Parts of this story has been around for a little while – On Jan. 5, The Washington Times noted that Tice wanted to testify before Congress, based on letters written by Tice from Dec. 16th, the same day the New York Times broke the spy story. But questions about Russell Tice’s credibility are now taking center stage, as is so often the case in these kinds of stories.

    The NSA ordered Tice to undergo an unscheduled psychological evaluation. There, a “Defense Department psychologist concluded that Tice suffered from psychotic paranoia.” Tice later wrote that he “did this even though he admitted that I did not show any of the normal indications of someone suffering from paranoia.” (There have been documented cases where government whistleblowers or troublemakers have been intimidated or persecuted through forced psychological testing.)

    James Risen, the Times reporter who broke the spy story, has been making the media rounds lauding his sources – including, it follows, Tice. He told Katie Couric:

    Well, you know, I think this was the most classic whistleblower case I’ve ever seen where people–you know, in–in a lot of stories people have mixed motives for why they talk to reporters. Some–some people–in some stories there’s a turf battle, and they’re losing out in the turf battle, or whatever. In this case–I’ve been a reporter for about 25 years, this was the purest case of a whistle–of–of whistleblowers coming forward, people who truly believed that there was something wrong going on in the government, and they were motivated, I believe, by the purest of reasons.

    ^ I know this cast of characters involves people of the left, who therefore may be very unreliable in terms of how they judge people and situations. But at worst, and as the saying goes, even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day. So it’s people like Snowden or Tice floating around out there — on the OUTside — along with refuse like this on the INside…

    [White House adviser] Varrett [Jarret] told them, “After we win this election, it’s our turn. Payback time. Everyone not with us is against us and they better be ready because we don’t forget. The ones who helped us will be rewarded, the ones who opposed us will get what they deserve. There is going to be hell to pay. Congress won’t be a problem for us this time. No election to worry about after this is over and we have two judges ready to go.”

    Mark (67e579)

  189. The real question is not what Snowden has revealed publicly, but what he might have revealed privately Senator Dianne Feinstein said they have no idea what he might have taken with him.

    And I will say the real damage to national security would not be information not on what the U.S. is doing ,but on what it is NOT doing. Or the limitations.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  190. Russia and China, in all probability, co-operate in spying, espedcially cyber-spying.

    They seem to be tryiong to avoid being seen to be too closely connected to Snowden, but they are helping him.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  191. 168. Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/23/2013 @ 11:07 am

    The President can just offensive launch wars whenever he feels like more or less

    But he can’t call it a war.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  192. 89. 86

    I see your point that if the DoJ didn’t charge him immediately that would weaken their case against Snowden. But clearly you are talking about in a US court. First you’ve got to get him there, and that means getting him out of Hong Kong. I think the charges against Snowden make that less likely.

    Looks like the charges (and extradition request) did get him out of Hong Kong.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (fc4608) — 6/23/2013 @ 6:19 am

    That’s an odd take on the reality of the situation.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_NSA_SURVEILLANCE_HONG_KONG?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-06-23-07-04-11

    HONG KONG (AP) — A former National Security Agency contractor wanted by the United States for revealing highly classified surveillance programs has been allowed to leave for a “third country” because a U.S. extradition request did not fully comply with Hong Kong law, the territory’s government said Sunday.

    …It acknowledged the U.S. extradition request, but said U.S. documentation did not “fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law.” It said additional information was requested from Washington, but since the Hong Kong government “has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr. Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.”

    The statement said Hong Kong had informed the U.S. of Snowden’s departure. It added that it wanted more information about alleged hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by U.S. government agencies which Snowden had revealed.

    The charges that didn’t comply with Hong Kong law drove Snowden out of Hong Kong? The fact that the US government put itself in the ludicrous position of trying to extradite Snowden from a special administrative region of the PRC by making the case Snowden was too valuable of an intelligence and national defense asset to the PRC to extradite drove Snowden out of the Hong Kong?

    I mean, look at the information Hong Kong requested. It wanted the USG to confirm that the USG had committed the crimes in Hong Kong that Snowden had alleged in order to verify the charges the US made in its extradition request.

    Make no mistake; I’m sure the actions the US took were crimes under Chinese or Hong Kong law. But then espionage in general is a crime in just about every country in the world. It certainly is here, but that doesn’t stop Chinese hackers from doing it. It shouldn’t stop our espionage agencies from doing it abroad.

    But anyhoo Hong Kong asked the US to confirm that it had deliberately committed crimes against that SAR first as a condition of sending Snowden back. Which is bizarre because that reminds me more of the negotiations over the crew of the USS Pueblo, who wanted to come back to the US from North Korea, than any extradition case I’ve ever heard of.

    It’s obvious to me that by taking the course it did the USG could only have succeeded in embarrassing itself in a Hong Kong courtroom and Eddie could have stayed in the PRC forever.

    Of course that apparently was never Eddie’s plan. He acknowledged in negotiations with the WaPo’s Barton Gellman about printing the story that he knew the information he had was worth a lot of money and he demanded as a condition that the WaPo print a cryptographic key so he could prove to a foreign embassy he was the source of the information. Information that was obviously in the hands of a third party.

    If you flee to Hong Kong with the desire to stay there you don’t need to negotiate with a foreign embassy. In fact you can’t; Hong Kong doesn’t maintain an embassy in Hong Kong (actually I nobody maintains an embassy in Hong Kong since it’s part of China but there are consulates). Clearly it was never his intent to stay in Hong Kong but to prove his worth in terms of the damage he can do to the US and negotiate with whatever country gives him asylum from Hong Kong.

    In the articles I’ve read about his flight from Hong Kong there are comments from attorneys who are shocked he left; Snowden convinced them he’d stay in Hong Kong and fight US attempts to extradite him. They won’t be the last suckers misled by Snowden.

    The fools who think Snowden is a hero and whatever else he leaks is a small price to pay for learning about the NSA’s domestic spying program will be proven suckers, too.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  193. ==In the articles I’ve read about his flight from Hong Kong there are comments from attorneys who are shocked he left; Snowden convinced them he’d stay in Hong Kong and fight US attempts to extradite him.==

    Reading articles is often not the best way to get accurate and truthful information on almost any topic, I have found.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  194. 150.and no not everything the NSA fascist pigboys have done is wrong

    but if China kicks them in the nuts no skin off mine

    Comment by happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/23/2013 @ 10:42 am

    How do you know at this point?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  195. 198. …Reading articles is often not the best way to get accurate and truthful information on almost any topic, I have found.

    Comment by elissa (1c4ca7) — 6/23/2013 @ 12:01 pm

    The only parts of the articles I believe are the quotes attributed by name to the attorneys I mentioned.

    That and the fact the Hong Kong government confirmed Snowden has left.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  196. Like articles that say global warming science is settled and that low fat high carb diets are good for you and that plastic bags should be banned.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  197. Like articles that say global warming science is settled and that low fat high carb diets are good for you and that plastic bags should be banned.

    The government’s track record on truth — or even understanding of reality — is not fantastic.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  198. 11. Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/21/2013 @ 6:52 pm

    Well, I’d also prosecute Sandy Berger to the full extent of the law: sneaking classified documents out of the National Archive (in his pants) and destroying them to hide Clinton’s mistakes on al Qaeda.

    The documents that he is known to have smuggled out – what he got caught at, was, first of all not smuggled out in his pants – I think his whole stiry as to how and when he did it is a lie – he might have had a confederate – and it was not to hide Clinton’s mistakes – that was other things – and I am far from sure they were mistakes by the way – but to prevent the 9/11 Commission from seeing something that would contradict a story he and Clinton had made up about them having stopped the Millenium bomb plot because they put people on alert, which they didn’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  199. 201.Like articles that say global warming science is settled and that low fat high carb diets are good for you and that plastic bags should be banned.

    Comment by elissa (1c4ca7) — 6/23/2013 @ 12:06 pm

    I totally agree. Which is why the only parts of articles I read in general I (mostly) believe are attributed quotes. How much of what’s quoted that I believe depends on how closely the named source is aligned with the biases of the news organization.

    In this case I don’t think AP or Reuters would deliberately misquote a Human rights lawyer like NBC would deliberately misquote George Zimmerman. Likewise I don’t think that MFM outlets would say a Hong Kong government spokesman confirmed Snowden left the SAR unless he did say that.

    It has nothing to do with trust on my part but recognizing they know which side of their bread is buttered on and who’s buttering it. If they want ongoing access to certain people they don’t lie about them. NBC doesn’t give a rip about getting face time with Zimmerman.

    I don’t even believe that everything the South China Morning Post claimed Snowden said about the USG’s espionage against specific Hong Kong targets actually came from Snowden. I imagine that would really eff up an extradition hearing. The US claims Snowden unlawfully communicated the fact that the US targeted, say, Tsinghua University. Only to find after the US confirms the fact that NSA hacked into Tsinghua’s network that particular leak didn’t come from Snowden.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  200. Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/22/2013 @ 9:29 pm

    failmerica is threatening china?

    No. They were chalenging Hong Kong – very mildly.

    What they were hoping to do was bottle him up in Hong Kong. They knew Snowden could keep things in the courts for several months.

    They apparently had no idea what his next move would be – or that he had friends in important places.

    Snowden is revealing,in more ways than one, that U.S. intelligence isn’t that good.

    It still may be a positive in that Snowden had been forced to reveal his connections.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  201. “If anything, what Tice was warning about back them seems more solidly anchored today than before”

    Mark – As I mentioned above, people should focus on proof versus allegations. Tice told a lot of stories but did he actually prove anything? If he did, I’d like to hear about it.

    The fact that he was relegated to hanging out with the kooks at Bradblog and democracynow actually subtracts from his credibility.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  202. 198. What reason would Snowden have to tell his attorneys that his actual plan was to leave Hong Kong as soon as an extradition request was made?.

    Now he had to know (have inside information) that Hong Kong would stall (on PRC orders undoubtably) long enough for him to leave.

    The question is whay did Snowden want to spend as much time in Hong Kong as he could?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  203. The NSA presumably is supposed to help protect us from acts of terrorist violence, in tandem with the following other crucial branch of the US government.

    usnews.nbcnews.com, May 2013: The U.S. military seems increasingly incapable of policing itself or ridding its ranks of sexual predators, watchdogs charge, but the latest litany of accusations — leveled Tuesday at Fort Hood — has thrust the Pentagon to the brink of wholesale reform long sought by victims of sexual assault.

    With the second member of the military’s campaign to stem sexual misconduct falling under investigation — for alleged sexual misconduct — critics were quick to lambast Pentagon brass for “gross negligence” and for maintaining an internal system of investigation and discipline that appears to be in desperate need of being ripped down and rebuilt with fresh independence and transparency.

    The Fort Hood scandal, coming just nine days after the sexual battery arrest of an Air Force officer tasked with preventing rape, cranked the volumed on long-standing cries “to get to work reforming the military justice system that clearly isn’t working,” said Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, D-N.Y.

    Her proposal was further hastened by the Pentagon’s May 7 revelation that 26,000 troops last year claimed anonymously to be sex-assault victims (up from 19,000 in FY11), and a May 9 White House meeting with lawmakers pitching various ideas to stem the military’s rape crisis.

    watchdogwire.com, May 26, 2013: While the incidence of rape of female members of the U.S. Armed Forces is the highest in the world, the little-known, under-reported fact is that more than 10,000 men were raped while on active duty during the year 2010.

    Those are the cases that victims reported. The truth is, the Pentagon estimates that about 62,941 men were brutalized through sexual means in acts of violence that can only be described as rape, though politically correct, legalistic terms preclude the use of the term.

    Only about 17 percent of male rape victims reported their experience.

    I feel really confident in this age of “workplace violence” (ironic that “Fort Hood” crops up again in a negative way), this era of “what difference does it make?!,” a time when the US is traveling quickly down that road paved with good intentions (where rainbow-colored flags flutter happily in the wind).

    Moreover, when it comes to non-military-related issues, we can take sustenance in knowing there’s integrity in other parts of the government, such as the IRS.

    Mark (67e579)

  204. 171.
    Former Conservative,

    The Founders were libertarians in an era when there was a universal moral (religious) code that governed society, and virtually everyone agreed with or at least acknowledged the code. That’s not the case today.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/23/2013 @ 11:20 am

    172.
    I submit libertarianism doesn’t work as well when there is no universal moral code that governs public behavior and expectations.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/23/2013 @ 11:20 am

    173.
    Even the deist Franklin asked the gathering to stop and pray during the debate over the Constitution, and I think on more than one occasion Washington did not give himself credit for brilliant startegy as a reason he won a battle or the war.

    And one could say it was a miracle that a group of people formed a government that took into consideration the basic fallenness of man and sought to deal with it, instead of some delusional view of human brilliance, intellect, and goodness.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/23/2013 @ 11:23 am

    174.
    I submit that nothing works as well when there is no universal moral code that governs public behavior and expectations.

    Comment by elissa (1c4ca7) — 6/23/2013 @ 11:23 am

    O/T but this is my problem with Libertarians as well. The policies they advocate guarantee the nanny state because since government is driving all possible competitive elements out of the norm-setting business all Libertarians are advocating for are more wards of the state. People who can’t control themselves must be controlled (which is why liberals see Islamists as natural allies; they see eye to eye on this point).

    By competitive elements I mean organized religion, civil organizations, and even the family. Now that all those elements have been labeled oppressive and biased in terms of race, gender, and sexual orientation the government gets to step in and “stop the hate” or stop the “war on women” by replacing social norms with laws.

    Thanks Libertarians!

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  205. There should have been another period in there.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  206. 207. The question is whay did Snowden want to spend as much time in Hong Kong as he could?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/23/2013 @ 12:33 pm

    That’s easy enough to answer. He needed a temporary safe haven from which to negotiate asylum by demonstrating he was genuine and also the value of the information he controlled.

    Hong Kong served as the auction house for the bidding war.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  207. If we’re being honest with ourselves all of us are just really wandering around in the dark trying to figure out the truth of what’s actually happened, what it means, and where it may lead– while being aware of and hoping to avoid the roadblocks, alternate routes, squirrels, and outright lies purposely thrown up by interested parties which may include several areas of our government, other governments, Snowdon, Greenwald, media in ours and other countries, etc. etc.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  208. 197

    Of course that apparently was never Eddie’s plan. …

    An alternative explanation is that it was his plan but Hong Kong told him to take his show on the road.

    James B. Shearer (fc4608)

  209. David Gregory was so far beyond parody this morning that it opened up a wormhole.

    JD (d7a645)

  210. I submit libertarianism doesn’t work as well when there is no universal moral code that governs public behavior and expectations.
    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/23/2013 @ 11:20 am

    — What one might label ‘orthodox libertarianism’ doesn’t work at all; not unless all of the people practicing it are hermits.

    We must have a governmental structure in place … a LIMITED government. There’s nothing ‘limited’ about collecting data on all of us.

    Icy (67c428)

  211. Via Weasel Zippers:

    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/06/23/taliban-gunmen-kill-foreign-climbers-in-pakistan-in-retaliation-for-american-drone-strike-that-killed-taliban-leader/

    Taliban Gunmen Kill Foreign Climbers In Pakistan In Retaliation For American Drone Strike That Killed Taliban Leader…Update: One American Among Those Killed

    …How are those peace talks with the Taliban going, Mr. President?

    Leftards will now have the opportunity to combine their excuses for ignoring reality in both the Benghazi and Fort Hood atrocities.

    “Hey, climbers get killed. It happens” meets “recreation place violence.”

    As happened MAJ Nadal murdered a bunch of soldiers in an act of Jihad and the Army COS said it would be a greater tragedy if the “backlash” derailed his diversity efforts, the government will not let the fact the Taliban is murdering Americans derail its surrender to the Taliban in Afghanistan in particular and its surrender to Islamists everywhere in general.

    Given what we already knew about NSA domestic spying and how the rest of the government such as the IRS has been aggressively pursuing “total information awareness” I know I can make a slam dunk case to a sane audience that Snowden is a traitor doing more harm than good. In fact it has been those prior revelations that has caused jurists like Sotomayor to say that Smith v. Maryland was wrongly decided and the government does need a warrant for third party information. Which I figure is the best chance for stopping the government’s domestic spying as long as we’re going to keep electing Republicrats.

    That said I never believed Snowden was the biggest traitor in US history or even the biggest traitor to come to light in the past five years. He’s earned his place among them but I don’t know what his ranking will turn out to be in the gallery of villains currently running and spying on this country. But he’ll certainly be well down the list.

    In fact I’ve said that several times on various Snowden related threads.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  212. JD, there are levels of parody–Tingles makes me laugh at his idiocy. But David Gregory makes my blood boil.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  213. DRJ, if they collect all, and sift, that is the danger. NO GENERAL WARRANT.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  214. Tice told a lot of stories but did he actually prove anything?

    Daleyrocks, you may be correct, but my sense is that 7 years since Tice’s name first popped into the news, that what has transpired more recently makes his observations even likelier than not. However, I would be skeptical if his liberalism — now that a president closer to him on the political spectrum is in the White House — prevented him from backing up what Snowden is revealing or claiming. Actually — stripping away all the politics — I don’t know what’s so unbelievable about what Tice and Snowden have described or are describing, since in today’s era of fast communication and high technology — and the crud of the IRS scandal — it’s easy to assume the sky’s the limit.

    As for concerns that what Snowden has leaked will damage the inner-workings of the government’s eavesdropping operation, I’m reminded of reports that even after the shenanigans of the IRS finally were aired, the bureaucracy apparently shook it off and went on its merry little way—as certain groups trying to get non-profit status still are stuck waiting and wondering.

    I have a hunch the ridiculous nature of Nidal Hasan and his murdering enlistees at Fort Hood or the idiocy of claiming a video on Youtube triggered the killings in Benghazi has emboldened America’s enemies far more than what Snowden is doing, at least so far.

    Mark (67e579)

  215. The Taliban just killed some Chinese. A miscommunication, no doubt.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  216. 212. 197

    Of course that apparently was never Eddie’s plan.

    An alternative explanation is that it was his plan but Hong Kong told him to take his show on the road.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (fc4608) — 6/23/2013 @ 1:27 pm

    Do you really imagine that was Hong Kong’s call to make? Eddie is a goldmine as far as the PRC is concerned.

    In any case the fact that Hong Kong used the opportunity to demand the US prove its espionage related charges against Snowden, i.e. that the US really was conducting cyber-espionage against civilian targets in Hong Kong, prove your contention false. The “one country two systems” facade allows the PRC to use Hong Kong the similarly to the way it uses its other front companies.

    Since the crimes the DoJ has charged Snowden with aren’t enumerated in the extradition treaty, the USG would not only have to provide evidence that the USG had committed crimes in Hong Kong in order to prove the criminal charges against Snowden were true. They would have to prove those crimes were also crimes in Hong Kong per the principle of dual criminality.

    Does anyone imagine that exposing a foreign government’s espionage against Hong KOng to the Hong Kong government, and by extension to the PRC, is a crime in Hong Kong?

    They were enjoying the box the US painted itself in too much to kick Snowden out. And this administration would never, ever seriously confront the PRC over Snowden. Which is why the US had to spout that BS about Hong Kong’s actions threatening our bilateral relations with that Chinese city. We have no bilateral relations with Hong Kong that don’t run through Beijing.

    Snowden could have stayed there as long as he liked.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  217. His passport has been revoked. The United States has a law that makes it illegal for an airline to transport anyone without proper travel documents. My guess is that other countries do too, and we’ll know soon which country grants an airline permission to bring him “home”.

    nk (875f57)

  218. I doan theenk “dual criminality” means what you think it means. I think it means we would not extradite anyone to Kuwai for slandering the emir and Kuwait would not extradite anyone to us for bigamy, but we would extradite a spy who spied only on Kuwait and Kuwait would extradite a spy who spied only on us.

    nk (875f57)

  219. 219. The Taliban just killed some Chinese. A miscommunication, no doubt.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/23/2013 @ 1:43 pm

    It’s always good to get news updates from the alternate universe that includes planet Finkelman.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/taliban-kills-foreign-climbers/2013/06/23/a811ea4c-dbef-11e2-a484-7b7f79cd66a1_story.html

    In all, 10 people were killed, including five from Ukraine, three from China and one from Russia, according to preliminary information from Pakistani authorities. At least one Pakistani guide also was killed in the attack. At least one Chinese tourist survived and was later rescued from the area, known as Fairy Meadows, officials said.

    Pakistan’s interior minister said a U.S. citizen was killed in the assault. So far, Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan said four bodies have been identified, including a Chinese American, two Chinese and one Nepali national.

    Matthew H. Boland, acting spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, said authorities were withholding the identification of the American until next of kin can be notified.

    Anybody see the miscommunication that Sammy’s seeing.

    nk @219, who says just because the US has revoked Snowden’s passport he’s traveling without proper documents? Vlad can give legal status and a Russian passport to anyone he wants.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/20/entertainment-us-russia-depardieu-idUSBRE8BJ0UF20121220

    Putin offers French tax row actor Depardieu a Russian passport

    I’m sure the US has lots of laws against what Snowden is doing but US law is no longer the (per the excuse Holder made up for Gore) controlling legal authority.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  220. Sorry, I meant to address nk’s comment @221.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  221. 220

    Do you really imagine that was Hong Kong’s call to make? Eddie is a goldmine as far as the PRC is concerned.

    If they have copied the hard drives on the purported 4 laptops what do they need him around for? If they wanted him to stay seems to me that he would still be there.

    James B. Shearer (fc4608)

  222. The folks who ‘iced’ Vandarbichev in the middle of downtown Doha, were carrying Russian passports. the Uighurs of Zinjiang, have a proximate relationship to China, as the people of Caucasus, and as such their militant wing ETIM, trained in Pakistan,

    narciso (3fec35)

  223. Speaking of copying hard drives, am I paranoid for suspecting every modem and every telecommunications device made in China can be accessed by the Chinese at will? That by using Chinese-made hardware, we join China’s home network?

    nk (875f57)

  224. The policies they advocate guarantee the nanny state because since government is driving all possible competitive elements out of the norm-setting business all Libertarians are advocating for are more wards of the state.

    That’s a circle. First of all your “they” doesn’t advocate government driving anything. That’s why there are phone numbers printed on the back of government vehicles. We know their driving stinks apriori.
    And setting morays? Oh hell no. Democrats are the ones espousing eugenics. If you don’t think your ready to start a family? If you want to explore other options (ever try lesbianism? *wink wink*). Then we have planned parenthood 9 an outlet on every corner), so you can extinguish that bundle of joy you aren’t quite ready for.
    Democrats are the ones who screwed businesses into enforcing their policies of bigotry. You think Woolworth’s wanted to have a seperate dining area for colored people? No. Money is all the same color Woolworths would have been only too happy to have them drinking Woolworth soda and munching Woolworth chips.
    It was the government that forced them to segregate their lunch counter. But I digress.

    Stop blaiming extra legal government malfeasance on Libertarians. You just make yourself look stupid when you do.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  225. nk, this is what I think dual criminality means.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-105erpt2/html/CRPT-105erpt2.htm

    The Hong Kong Extradition Agreement identifies an
    extraditable offense as either a crime enumerated in a long
    list of covered felonies (punishable by imprisonment of more
    than one year), or any other offense that is punishable by
    imprisonment of more than one year by both the requesting and
    requested Party 3

    … \3\ This concept is termed “dual criminality.”

    Since the crimes the US has charged Snowden with aren’t enumerated in the treaty, to extradite Snowden from Hong Kong the USG would have to prove that those crimes would also be considered felonies in Hong Kong. And they’d have to meed the same standard of evidence Hong Kong would require to proceed to trial on those charges in Hong Kong.

    That would be a long shot and most legal observers in Hong Kong strongly doubted the USG could prove its espionage allegations against Snowden to the court’s satisfaction.

    But in the course of that self-inflicted public humiliation due to massive stupidity on several levels, the USG could certainly prove that it had committed crimes in Hong Kong and that Snowden revealed them.

    So I ask again if anyone thinks that revealing crimes committed in and against Hong Kong to that government and public is a crime in Hong Kong?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  226. In the words of Jennifer Abel, “Government Cock Will Not Suck Itself. That’s What A Free And Independent Media Is For.”

    JD (d7a645)

  227. 225. If they have copied the hard drives on the purported 4 laptops what do they need him around for? If they wanted him to stay seems to me that he would still be there.

    Comment by James B. Shearer (fc4608) — 6/23/2013 @ 2:23 pm

    What would they need him around for? To watch the US confirm the details of its cyber-espionage in a Hong Kong courtroom, one.

    And what part of the fact that not all of what was formerly USG intelligence information that Snowden controls on those laptops, if any, don’t you understand? If it was nobody has a reason to give Snowden asylum, and every step Snowden has taken shows he knows that.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  228. Personally, in terms of safety and well-being, I sadly have to say I’m more nervous about the following than I am about Edward Snowden. Snowden will come and go — and fade from view — but too many Americans, regrettably and in their infinite wisdom, probably will vote for variations of a Barack Obama in elections well into the future.

    cnsnews.com, June 10, 2013: Earlier this year, in an interview with TV One, Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) praised President Barack Obama for putting together a campaign database that “will have information about everything on every individual.”

    “And that database will have information about everything on every individual in ways that it’s never been done before,” Waters told “Washington Watch” host Roland, referring to Obama’s “Organizing for America,” which was changed from a campaign organization to a 501(c)(4) called Organizing for Action.

    Waters said the database would also serve future Democratic candidates seeking the presidency.

    “He’s been very smart,” Waters said of Obama. “I mean it’s very powerful what he’s leaving in place.

    examiner.com, June 10, 2013: Radio host Glenn Beck interviewed former National Security Agency (NSA) employee William Binney on his program Friday. Mr. Binney was previously a very highly placed intelligence official until he resigned in 2001. He then became a whistleblower, helping to expose the NSA’s warrantless eavesdropping program. As a consequence of his whistleblowing, his NSA security clearance was revoked, armed agents raided his home, and his business was forced to shut down.

    During their discussion, Mr. Beck raised an intriguing possibility: Was Chief Justice John Roberts blackmailed by the Obama regime into changing his ruling on Obamacare at the last minute? Given what he knows about the NSA, Mr. Binney couldn’t rule such a thing out.

    usatoday.com, November 2010: President Obama is backing off a previous comment in which he appeared to cast Republicans as “enemies.”

    “I probably should have used the word ‘opponents’ instead of ‘enemies,'” Obama told radio host Michael Baisden.

    Obama said Monday he was referring to GOP opposition to comprehensive immigration reform.

    “Now the Republicans are saying that I’m calling them enemies,” Obama said. “What I’m saying is you’re an opponent of this particular provision, comprehensive immigration reform, which is something very different.”

    blogs.wsj.com, June 2008: [W]hat Barack Obama said he would do to counter Republican attacks… “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl….”

    Mark (67e579)

  229. *…USG intelligence information that Snowden controls is on those laptops…*

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  230. Speaking of copying hard drives, am I paranoid for suspecting every modem and every telecommunications device made in China can be accessed by the Chinese at will? That by using Chinese-made hardware, we join China’s home network?

    Yeah, probably. It’s the US you gotta worry about.

    (That said, other nations probably spy on Internet traffic as much as they can, so try not to use to many .ru and .cn email addresses.)

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  231. WASHINGTON — Even before a former U.S. intelligence contractor exposed the secret collection of Americans’ phone records, the Obama administration was pressing a government-wide crackdown on security threats that requires federal employees to keep closer tabs on their co-workers and exhorts managers to punish those who fail to report their suspicions.

    President Barack Obama’s unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider Threat Program, is sweeping in its reach. It has received scant public attention even though it extends beyond the U.S. national security bureaucracies to most federal departments and agencies nationwide, including the Peace Corps, the Social Security Administration and the Education and Agriculture departments. It emphasizes leaks of classified material, but catchall definitions of “insider threat” give agencies latitude to pursue and penalize a range of other conduct.

    Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html#storylink=cpy

    Huh. Imagine that. The Trust Me coalition is holding a good old fashion purge of conservatism from the civil service. And here I though Chester Arther had fixed the spoils system by knocking off the Conkling Ring.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  232. I haven’t made too much of this angle because my position has been that even if Snowden was an outright spy (which he isn’t or there’s no way his handlers would have blown his cover at 29), he still did more good than harm by exposing the out of control domestic surveillance programs. However, these are the sorts of thoughts that have certainly crossed my mind during all of this:

    Via Hot Air (Headlines)
    by Steve Chapman

    Did the NSA leaks really put us at risk?

    Now, it’s hard to believe it would come as a great surprise to al-Qaida that American spies might be examining their phone records. Nor is it likely that hardened militants were slapping their foreheads to learn that someone in Washington may have been reading their email or listening in on their Skype chats.

    But those in power insist that unveiling the information put lives at risk. Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, decried these “dangerous national security leaks,” insisting that the “effectiveness of these programs depends on them being kept secret from the foreign terrorists they target.”

    Alexander echoed that claim in testifying before the committee last week. Asked whether the revelation was harmful to security, he replied, “I think it was irreversible and significant damage to this nation. … I believe it will hurt us and our allies.”

    But how? My curiosity whetted, I contacted Rogers’ office for information on what the terrorists gained. A spokesman emailed to say the chairman could not be bothered to offer support for his allegation: “He does not have space available in his schedule this week to re-address issues that have very clearly been addressed in the open hearing.” No transcript of the hearing was available, but I was assured I would get the answers if I watched the video.

    I think he’s understating the damage a bit, perhaps, but I think many more are vastly overstating it. (Basically I’m sure that al-Qaida — and other foreign — leadership mostly figured this stuff out, but the publicity Snowden brought may have convinced some of the duller numbnuts to be more careful.) I do believe his net contribution to liberty has been vastly positive, and that he has great courage.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  233. Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/23/2013 @ 2:26 pm

    That’s what i said when lenovo started making IBM computers in China, everything lenovo has extra hardware and software reporting to the Chinese govt.
    Of course, I said it more in jest than firm belief,
    but maybe they are getting the last laugh.

    Whatver Snowden is doing, I’m assuming he is like the dwarves in Chronicles of Narnia, and Snowden is for Snowden,
    – and I bet he is being used and manipulated more than he is determining his own ticket
    – and I bet Putin’s response to anything anyone in the US says or does will be, “I’m Vladimir Putin, and I do what I want, and there’s not a thing you can do about it… even if you could control the ocean level”

    Even if the NSA doesn’t do all of this stuff, it is there for Google to do it themselves, for communication companies to do it themselves.
    A little blcakmail here, a little intimidation there…
    not likely after the average Joe keeping his head down in the crowd, just those who stand up and try to do something “unpopular”

    And yes, not only would a righteous president be good, but righteous people scattered about here there and everywhere, in the agencies, the judiciary, the Congress, the press…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  234. And yes, not only would a righteous president be good, but righteous people scattered about here there and everywhere, in the agencies, the judiciary, the Congress, the press…

    I think we may just have had one of those in one Edward Snowden.

    I made a comment above about government education undermining the population’s ethics. I wonder if one of the reasons Snowden was able to think for himself, on an ethical matter, was the fact he is a (smart) high school dropout?

    I wouldn’t be surprised.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  235. I wouldn’t blame libertarians for it, and I don’t know if it is by the design of anyone other than Alinsky’s patron angel
    but indeed, the foundations of civil society apart from government- family, organized religion (except Islam), private philanthropy, are all being undermined and their responsibilites are trying to be taken over by the govt.
    “Life of Julia”- laughable except so far they are getting the last laugh.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  236. Snowden does not fit my description. My description is one of a person that goes to responsible people in Congress with the public campaign trigger if he is not given a fair shake.

    And a patriot does not seek shelter with the help of communists who would still like to crush us like Kruschev, but are just smart enough to not say so.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  237. Snowden does not fit my description. My description is one of a person that goes to responsible people in Congress ….

    What are those?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  238. I’d be curious to know how the Snowden fan club is arriving at its assessment that his leaks are more positive than negative.

    Sure, AQ knows where monitoring their digital communications. But the devil’s in the details. Just as of course the Russians know we monitor their encrypted comms and the Chinese know we conduct cyber-espionage against them as well attempt to counter their cyber-espionage against us.

    But detailing how we go about doing the above, what we know about their vulnerabilities in those areas, and our own vulnerabilities in those areas is huge.

    And I’ve asked repeatedly for someone to try and tell me what Snowden has actually told us about the NSA’s domestic spying program(s) that we didn’t already know.

    Naturally no one has because no one can. As I’ve said it’s a slam dunk case that Snowden is doing far more damage than any good but then it’s only a slam dunk if the audience is sane.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  239. And I’ve asked repeatedly for someone to try and tell me what Snowden has actually told us about the NSA’s domestic spying program(s) that we didn’t already know.

    Are you joking?

    That they’re recording all the phone metadata? That they’re storing content of domestic private Internet private messages, emails, file transfers, voice and video calls, Facebook posts?

    That they’re working with the Brits (this came out later) to get around local laws and vice versa? (This is almost certainly true.)

    Etc.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  240. 240. I wouldn’t blame libertarians for it, and I don’t know if it is by the design of anyone other than Alinsky’s patron angel
    but indeed, the foundations of civil society apart from government- family, organized religion (except Islam), private philanthropy, are all being undermined and their responsibilites are trying to be taken over by the govt.
    “Life of Julia”- laughable except so far they are getting the last laugh.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/23/2013 @ 3:39 pm

    I definitely blame Libertarians for it. They have stubbornly refuse to admit to large chunks of reality, such as cause and effect, to advocate the policies that they do.

    It’s for the same reason that I blame liberals for ignoring the real damage they do to people in order to insist that their policies are compassionate and good. And then demand more of the same on a larger scale to fix the problems they won’t admit to causing.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  241. Watch the above from 5:45 on.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  242. Are you joking?

    That they’re recording all the phone metadata? That they’re storing content of domestic private Internet private messages, emails, file transfers, voice and video calls, Facebook posts?

    That they’re working with the Brits (this came out later) to get around local laws and vice versa? (This is almost certainly true.)

    Etc.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/23/2013 @ 3:51 pm

    Are you joking? You really think any of that’s news?

    In chronological order here’s Sotomayor’s concurring opinion. An opinion she wrote in early 2012.

    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/10-1259.pdf

    I’ll spare everyone the lengthy excerpts in which she talks about almost every single thing. Not everything as it’s a case primarily about government GPS surveillance, but she’s clearly aware of everything you think is news.

    then there’s this late 2012 article mentions that in addition to confirming everything else you think Snowden told about domestic for the first time isn’t new either.

    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/us-government-spying-on-innocent-citizens-just-in-case/

    US Government Spying on Innocent Citizens, Just In Case

    James Joyner · Thursday, December 13, 2012

    Remember when the Bush administration was spying on calls Americans made overseas without a warrant? Those were the good old days…

    …This is all information that the government had access to; what’s new here is that it’s being aggregated and stored. Oh, and it violates decades-old privacy laws in spirit but, apparently, not in letter:

    …Oh, and as a bonus:

    The changes also allow databases of U.S. civilian information to be given to foreign governments for analysis of their own. In effect, U.S. and foreign governments would be using the information to look for clues that people might commit future crimes.

    And finally this from early May 2013 before the Snowden story broke:

    http://www.techhive.com/article/2037632/don-t-freak-out-but-the-government-records-and-stores-every-phone-call-and-email.html

    On May 1, Tim Clemente, former member of the Joint Terrorism Task force was interviewed by CNN’s Erin Burnett in a segment regarding the FBI’s investigation of alleged Boston marathon bomber Tamerian Tsarnaev’s widow Katherine Russell. Ms. Russell is currently being investigated by Federal authorities to determine if she had any foreknowledge of the Marathon plot, or aided her late husband and brother-in-law to help them elude capture. Specifically, authorities have centered in on a phone call between Russell and Tsarnaev that took place after Tamerian’s photo was released to the public as a person of interest.

    During the discussion on CNN, Clemente mentioned that even if Russell did not cooperate with investigators, the authorities would still have the ability to determine the contents of this phone call. In fact, they may have the ability to go back and listen to all phone calls.

    From the transcripts:

    CLEMENTE: …We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It’s not necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of her. We certainly can find that out.

    BURNETT: So they can actually get that? We can know what people are saying, that is incredible.

    CLEMENTE: …Welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not.

    I put the information in chronological order by the date it was published. But none of it was revealed for the first time.

    You just weren’t paying attention, Former Conservative. So try again; what did Snowden tell us we didn’t already know from other sources?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  243. He pushed it into the public consciousness, Steve, and so did the public a great service. Relying on Sotomayor to save the Republic isn’t wise.

    You just weren’t paying attention, Former Conservative. So try again; what did Snowden tell us we didn’t already know from other sources?


    Everything,
    since I didn’t know the above, and neither did most other people.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  244. Making Snowden the subject really helps Teh Bamster

    JD (b63a52)

  245. Here I agree with Sarah Palin 100%. She puts it very well too, and makes points related to when her email was hacked.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  246. ==*…USG intelligence information that Snowden controls is on those laptops…*==

    LOL. Can you prove that the laptops he is currently carrying do not exclusively contain angry birds games, a digital version of the latest Victoria’s Secret catalog, Solitare, and You Tube clips from his favorite James Bond movies?

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  247. James Bond, huh?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  248. I should have said I’d spare everyone the lengthy excerpts from the Sotomayor opinion again, as I’ve already quoted from it at length to demonstrate that jurists were already talking about all the issues Former Conservative was surprised to learn from Snowden well before his leaks were publicized.

    And frankly I don’t feel like going excerpting from a PDF file and then going through and removing all those stupid breaks that the program puts in the text.

    I have to admit I think people who think Snowden gave up anything new also must get their history lessons from Oliver Stone.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  249. elissa @252, you quoted the sentence fragment from comment #234.

    I was correcting an earlier comment, #232:

    And what part of the fact that not all of what was formerly USG intelligence information that Snowden controls on those laptops, if any, don’t you understand? If it was nobody has a reason to give Snowden asylum, and every step Snowden has taken shows he knows that.

    Note the word “is” is missing from the bolded portion.

    I thought I’ve been clear in exchanges with you on this subject. There will be evidence against Snowden on those laptops. He has to prove his value to his benefactors.

    But if he has all the data he stole on those laptops he has no value to any potential benefactor.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  250. There will be evidence against Snowden on those laptops. He has to prove his value to his benefactors.

    Probably, but not necessarily. Embarrassing the hell out of the Obama administration is value, and forcing the Congress’s hand toward stricter intelligence oversight, bringing the NSA in line ith the constitution, in and of itself is a win.

    But it’s a win we should let them have because without that there’s nothing much worth protecting.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  251. I have to admit I think people who think Snowden gave up anything new also must get their history lessons from Oliver Stone.

    I take it you’re not a believer in the Dale Carnegie approach to winning friends and influencing people.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  252. ==I thought I’ve been clear in exchanges with you on this subject. There will be evidence against Snowden on those laptops. He has to prove his value to his benefactors.==

    Steve, Here. Try to see this as a scene in… Blazing Saddles for instance. The U.S. government hyperventilates and rides in and surreptitiously grabs and confiscates his laptops at the Quito airport. And when they open them up there’s no there there. See? Hah hah. Because they’re completely different laptops! Snowdon’s already moved/deposited/sold/given away/destroyed the original NSA data. It’s somewhere else. Now you tell me that isn’t a great comedic scene.

    elissa (1c4ca7)

  253. 246. Out of the mouth of babes..

    gary gulrud (318429)

  254. iphones ring spy pigs listening
    on a plane snowden’s missing
    the life he once knew
    he gave up for you

    it’s shocking how some folks don’t understand

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  255. 257. I take it you’re not a believer in the Dale Carnegie approach to winning friends and influencing people.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/23/2013 @ 5:01 pm

    You noticed.

    Here’s an article that details the history of the intelligence relationship between NSA and Britain’s GCHQ at an RAF base north of London.

    http://www.fas.org/irp/facility/menwith.htm

    Menwith Hill Station, UK
    ( 54.0162 N; 1.6826 W )

    Or at least it details that relationship up until November 17, 2003 when the article was last updated.

    I’m still surprised anyone can think Snowden told you anything new about the USG’s domestic spying.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  256. I’m still surprised anyone can think Snowden told you anything new about the USG’s domestic spying.

    Then it took someone doing what he did to get attention. Go Snowden! … if only strategically.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  257. Former Conservative, all you’re demonstrating is that it took Snowden to get your attention.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  258. Well the scope of the collection was something that wasn’t widely known, it makes any kind of slip through of the Tsarnaev’s much harder to explain,

    narciso (3fec35)

  259. I think Snowden revealed some new and important details.

    But if all he did was bring attention and start a public debate (his goal, after all), then mission accomplished. You’re act like him achieving the thing that he set out to do is somehow not significant. I’m a bit at a loss to understand your thinking, frankly.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  260. *acting

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  261. Yeah, me too. So no harm, no foul then.

    nk (875f57)

  262. You guys actually take Snowden’s word for what it is he set out to achieve?

    The guy who told The Guardian:

    Hong Kong has a strong tradition of free speech. People think ‘China; great firewall’. Mainland China does have significant restrictions on free speech but the people of Hong Kong have a long tradition of protesting in the streets, making their views known, their internet is not filtered here. No more so than any other western government. And I believe that the Hong Kong government is actually independent in relation to a lot of other western governments.

    You either have to be a complete idiot to say that, or you’re playing a more complicated game. He’s playing a more complicated game. And part of his more complicated game is playing his fan club.

    So why would you take his word for anything?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  263. Yes we’ve seen this doubletalk from Agee who was working for the DGI, through their KGB handler, from Martin and Mitchell, from that marine that defected to North Korea.

    narciso (3fec35)

  264. He’s accomplishing his stated intention in that regard. So whether that is his “real” intention or not, he’s doing it.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  265. edward plays vulcan chess while solving an encrypted rubik’s cube while he counts how many licks it takes to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop

    he’s so effing cool like that I’m just agog

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  266. I have a question for the baby ducks in the Snowden fan club who are learning for the first time of his old news. But first a little background.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/norman-solomon/nsa-spied-on-un-diplomats_b_12927.html

    Posted: December 27, 2005 11:48 AM

    Despite all the news accounts and punditry since the New York Times published its Dec. 16 bombshell about the National Security Agency’s domestic spying, the media coverage has made virtually no mention of the fact that the Bush administration used the NSA to spy on U.N. diplomats in New York before the invasion of Iraq.

    It’s not a question of if but when. When Snowden reveals the NSA’s methods and capabilities for spying on foreign diplomats in the US like he exposed the GCHQ’s methods and capabilities are you going to still think he’s doing you any good?

    Seriously, How much damage can he do before you start to think it’s greater than whatever good you think about the big nothingburger of a revelation about domestic spying he served up to you?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  267. Wolfking Awesomefox splits atoms, with his mind, while simultaneously playing six games of three dimensional chess.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  268. Steve57, what you don’t get is some people think liberty is worth saving, but without that, it’s not worth pouring more internal security resources at since that makes the problem worse — and at some point those become the enemies of liberty, not its guardians.

    Is that hard to grasp?

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  269. A reprise of something I said above.
    I think some are missing something. The NSA is getting their data from who?
    Private companies who are not held to the standards of the Bill of Rights.
    Aren’t emails “not really private”?
    So, the govt isn’t supposed to look in them, but if they are not protected like USMail, who can look in them?

    Isn’t Google doing some big to-do about tech help for dems candidates, and dems only?
    If Snowden was doing data mining for Google to help democrat strategists would it be illegal?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  270. if we found out that Snowden was a prolifeydoodly poor feets wouldn’t know what to do.
    The irrepressible hate against the unlimited praise.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  271. pikachu will be more confused, now that the Huntress agrees with him.

    narciso (3fec35)

  272. I have to admit I think people who think Snowden gave up anything new also must get their history lessons from Oliver Stone.

    It seems like you’re trying to have it both ways. That, on one hand, you’re downplaying the importance of what Snowden has done, or is doing, by saying he hasn’t revealed anything that the public didn’t already know about, or that genuine whistle-blowers haven’t already publicized. And that, on the other hand, he’s clearly deserving of our fury and major condemnation because he’s giving enemies of the US access to top-secret information.

    In my case, I don’t trust Snowden, I don’t trust Obama, I certainly don’t trust Eric Holder. Sadly enough, I’m also losing faith in a US military that apparently is moving perilously close to being not much less twisted than a branch of the ACLU, GLAAD and Muslim Brotherhood.

    “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves…”

    Mark (67e579)

  273. Abortion in Ecuador is currently illegal except in case of the threat to life or health of the woman, or the result of the rape of a woman who is mentally handicapped or insane. The punishment for a woman who has an abortion is 1 to 5 years in prison and the punishment for a doctor or other person who performs the procedure is 2 to 5 years.

    nk (875f57)

  274. What’s hard to grasp is the idea that people who haven’t been paying attention until now are liberty’s watchdogs.

    I don’t suggest you do it now as the news is all Snowden all the time when you try, but sometime in the future do a search on the five-eyes intelligence sharing community. It’s called five-eyes because it includes the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The intel exchange relationship goes back to WWII, although the term is more recent.

    In all those decades people in every single one of those countries have speculated the countries spy on each other both for their own purposes but also to evade their own domestic spying laws. This has been the rumor since the NSA was created, and the rumors really started to fly after the Rockefeller and Church investigation revealed the Army’s and the CIA’s domestic spying activities (and I believe the NSA’s as well, although I can’t recall if the reports specifically mentioned NSA or people just presumed if the others were doing it so was NSA).

    In fact NSA insiders periodically came forward and said the five-eyes community was doing exactly that; having each other spy on their own country to evade laws.

    So yeah I get that people think what the government is doing is a grave threat to liberty. I think so too. But you just found out about it in May? Everything Snowden revealed about domestic spying, including the size and scope of the operation, has been public for quite some time. If you’re so concerned about defending liberty how could it be you haven’t noticed?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  275. Well we were familiar with the pre FISA era, Minaret and Shamrock, which had full spectrum phone and mail intercepts, we knew of Echelon, some other details.

    narciso (3fec35)

  276. And that, on the other hand, he’s clearly deserving of our fury and major condemnation because he’s giving enemies of the US access to top-secret information.

    Focus, Mark, focus. I said Snowden hasn’t said anything new about the NSA’s domestic spying on Americans which is illegitimate. I said he deserves condemnation for giving our enemies top-secret information about the NSA’s legitimate espionage activities against foreign targets.

    Which is precisely the kind of information he’ll continue to trade in for refuge.

    That’s not having it both ways. It’s merely not allowing myself to be duped by Snowden.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  277. the pikachu heard a fascism rustling outside in the bushes and jumped to his feet, snarling fiercely sparks a-flickering

    the fascism hastily retreated

    the pikachu turned around three times and sank into repose, more than a little pleased with himself

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  278. I said he deserves condemnation for giving our enemies top-secret information about the NSA’s legitimate espionage activities against foreign targets.

    Steve57, I’m trying to be objective about the guy and what this society has become more recently, and I don’t want to enter the realm of moral relativism. But it’s getting harder and harder to avoid that swamp nowadays. We’re flailing about in an era of a dumbed-down, increasingly banana-republic-ized America.

    For instance, when the US awhile back was chastising the PRC — and rightly so — for breaking into American computer systems, I shook my head and immediately envisioned the amorality of China. I thought that we in the US, perhaps observant of somewhat higher ethics, were sitting ducks. But this occurred before the controversy of the IRS broke out many weeks ago, before Snowden just in the past few days leaked about the US returning the favor — so to speak — to the PRC by electronically spying on their systems.

    It’s too bad that decent Americans of all stripes have been put in this situation, and that we’re arguing in ways that wouldn’t have occurred in the past. But we live in a nation whose “chickens are coming home to roost,” thanks in part to the US having “jumped the shark” — forever after — back in November 2008 and certainly in 2012.

    Mark (67e579)

  279. Speaking of people that faced long periods of incarceration in retaliation for doing the right thing for the citizenry,
    Nelson Mandela is in critical condition.

    Icy (67c428)

  280. me and Mr. buttons are both resolved I think not to ever ever ever play sun city

    i hope he’s ok

    as he wanders the erf

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  281. For instance, when the US awhile back was chastising the PRC — and rightly so — for breaking into American computer systems, I shook my head and immediately envisioned the amorality of China. I thought that we in the US, perhaps observant of somewhat higher ethics, were sitting ducks.

    Mark, we are sitting ducks. Precisely because of leaks like Snowden’s. I don’t see why anyone wants to lose a cyber war with China but apparently we do. China’s cyber espionage isn’t just a major national security threat but a major economic threat as well.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/11/chinese-economic-espionage-is-hurting-the-case-for-free-trade

    Espionage is no longer cloaks and daggers. It has spread in terms of both targets (embracing economics as well as security) and methods, with computers now more dangerous than people. The national security dimension is important to the U.S. in general and the U.S.–China relationship. Even putting national security aside, though, there is a problem.

    Mutually beneficial economic exchange occurs only when there is acceptance of the rule of law. If the legal protection of property rights is ignored, free exchange makes much less sense: One side just takes from the other. The U.S. has long had this problem with Chinese violation of American intellectual property, but the advent of cyber espionage has made it considerably worse. No longer does painstaking work have to be conducted to steal a single chemical process, for example; now a fully successful cyber attack can swipe the entirety of a company’s knowledge.

    …In the past few years, just among large companies, Dupont and Lockheed Martin have been targeted by attacks from China. So have American Superconductor, Coca Cola, Chesapeake Energy, and British Gas.[2] The latter group is noteworthy because they are all firms that were actively trying to do business with the PRC—trying to continue an existing partnership or create a new one. Chinese hackers are attacking the country’s friends as well as its commercial rivals.

    The Chinese government’s sole response—angry denials—is making matters worse. It is not the slightest bit credible that all of these attacks occur without the consent of the central government. The Chinese partners or rivals of the attacked foreign firms are usually state-owned. Given that the Communist Party refuses to accept the independence of harmless social organizations, the frequency and increasing sophistication of these cyber attacks implies organization and capability that would never be tolerated unless under Party control.

    I can’t believe people fall for the transparent falsehood that the US was invading anyone’s privacy in Hong Kong merely because Snowden identified only “civilian” ISPs and infrastructure. Instead of seeing through to the fact NSA was identifying the various fronts that Chinese government hackers use to hide their tracks. And trying to find the individual state-sponsored hackers.

    But then people fell for Soviet economic reports for years.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  282. it’s easy to make people look bad when they reveal state secrets

    what’s hard is to say hey you know what the point is the nsa needs to stop being so fascist and creepy

    it’s a little thing I like to call “keeping your eye on the ball”

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  283. I think I said this Snowden obsession was getting spooky. I meant clinical.

    Kinda like McLame and Grahamnesty throwing tantrums and fits, heads spinning around–‘Free the beaners or we’re all dead!!!’

    gary gulrud (318429)

  284. Well when Facebook’s security chief??? joins the NSA, there’s reason for concern,

    narciso (3fec35)

  285. a furrowed brow perhaps

    anything more would be unpatriotic

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  286. gary @289 no one forces you to show up on these threads or everyone else to stick up for Snowden.

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  287. Mr. Snowden sowing the seeds of sowing the seeds of love

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  288. Yeah, Feets. And he’s sowing them with Vlad Putin. You probably wouldn’t find it so romantic if you had ever been imprisoned by the guy.

    How long have you been a fan of the guy who put Pussy Riot in the lock-up? Longer than Snowdon’s love affair with the guy?

    Steve57 (ab2b34)

  289. 292. daley thinks I should get my own blog, what it’d be about I’ve no clue.

    I think feets should get the blog, he’s got more upside and more content.

    gary gulrud (318429)

  290. I think Xi, Pooter, and Soros’ bagman are all in cahoots.

    They’re just telegraphing the sapient among us(present company decimated) what’s what.

    “Under our thumb.”

    gary gulrud (318429)

  291. Well when Facebook’s security chief??? joins the NSA, there’s reason for concern,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/23/2013 @ 8:37 pm

    I was tempted to say you’re sh*t’n me, playing off what I wrote earlier:

    Even just take one thing: Facebook.

    WHY does the government need every facebook post archived, regardless of the person’s privacy settings, and all of their private messages as well?

    Snowden was right to tell people about this — and smart to flee.

    But not so much. It’s true.

    Former Conservative (6e026c)

  292. “292. daley thinks I should get my own blog, what it’d be about I’ve no clue.”

    Nonstop whining, of course.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  293. Visual aid.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  294. R.I.P. Bobby “Blue” Bland

    Icy (67c428)

  295. gary’s blog would, of course, be called “The Sky Is Falling”.

    Icy (67c428)

  296. Gloomy Gary’s House of Doom

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  297. daleyrocks, and your blog would be called Rinocide.

    mg (31009b)

  298. daley is the last person I would call a Rino

    E.PWJ (bdd0a6)

  299. Here is the rule of thumb I use: if it makes David Axelrod smile, it is not good for Right of Center ideas.

    Funny part is that a lot of the Right is making Axelrod smile, without any help from the Left, at all.

    Simon Jester (082eba)

  300. if it makes Meghan’s coward daddy smile it ain’t no damn good neither

    to say nothing of smarmy smarmy rubio el cubano mas authentico

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  301. 297.Well when Facebook’s security chief??? joins the NSA, there’s reason for concern,
    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/23/2013 @ 8:37 pm

    That will never happen, as he/they make too much at Facebook.
    You need to watch how often the chief of NSA visits the facebook office.

    Facebook already archives it all…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  302. Sigh. And Mr. Feet demonstrates my point, as he always does.

    Whatever, peoples. Enjoy 50+ years of DNC control. I just don’t understand helping the DNC.

    And let me be clear: I am not saying things that many of you call support of “RINOs”

    It’s just that I have very seldom heard any positive suggestions of candidates to support, that people can begin to work with. Just tearing down folks on the Right. In fact, I would argue that folks here get more irritated by folks on the Right in government than they are worried about folks on the Left.

    But please. Continue with the funny bon mots, weird lingo, and pursuit of ideological purity. It always works so well—as it did with Teddy Roosevelt and Ross Perot (notice what those “none of the above” candidates delivered to the nation: Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton).

    The answer, of course, is working at the grass roots. But that is hard work. It’s much easier to find fault with people and make half-clever comments.

    Simon Jester (082eba)

  303. 221. Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/23/2013 @ 2:04 pm

    His passport has been revoked. The United States has a law that makes it illegal for an airline to transport anyone without proper travel documents. My guess is that other countries do too, and we’ll know soon which country grants an airline permission to bring him

    Apparently somebody figured out that angle too.

    Snowden had a refugeee travel document given to him by Wikileaks (although he was not officially informed that his U.S. passport had bene revoked until he arrived in Moscow)

    I don’t suppose everybody gets that refugee document so easily, and then countries have to agree to accept it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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