Experts Say Snowden’s Claims Are Absurd
Last night, I said of classified information discloser Edward Snowden: “To me, it sounds like the guy is full of it.”
Looks like I’m not the only one to say so:
[A]nalysts said that Snowden seems to have greatly exaggerated the amount of information available to him and people like him.
Any NSA analyst “at any time can target anyone, any selector, anywhere,” Snowden told the Guardian. “I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal email.”
Robert Deitz, a former top lawyer at the NSA and CIA, called the claim a “complete and utter” falsehood.
“First of all it’s illegal,” he said. “There is enormous oversight. They have keystroke auditing. There are, from time to time, cases in which some analyst is [angry] at his ex-wife and looks at the wrong thing and he is caught and fired,” he said.
Former NSA analysts agree:
NSA analysts who have the authority to query databases of metadata such as phone records — or Internet content, such as emails, videos or chat logs — are subject to stringent internal supervision and also the external oversight of the foreign surveillance court, former NSA officials said.
“It’s actually very difficult to do your job,” said a former senior NSA operator, who also declined be quoted by name because of the sensitive nature of the case. “There are all these checks that don’t allow you to move agilely enough.”
For example, the former operator said, he had go through an arduous process to obtain FISA court permission to gather Internet data on a foreign nuclear weapons proliferator living abroad because some of the data was passing through U.S. wires.
“When he’s saying he could just put any phone number in and look at phone calls, it just doesn’t work that way,” he said. ” It’s absurd. There are technical limits, and then there are people who review these sorts of queries.”
Whom to believe: Snowden or the former NSA officials? In this case, I think I am going with the latter. It’s not that I inherently trust these people; it’s that Snowden’s claims sound far-fetched on their face — especially the one about how he could have read anyone’s email for whom he had an email address, including Barack Obama.
But, of course, we don’t know for sure.
If Snowden is an exaggerator, where does that leave us on this story?
the piggy piggy NSA spy pansies have already lied to congress and to all of us
lied lied lied like the piggy little fascist whores they are
why would they tell the truth now
the NSA has no credibility
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:38 amMr. Snowden on one hand
anonymous sources from the Los Angeles Times on the other
hmmmm let’s puzzle this through
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:43 amAnd yet they spy.
I agree with happyfeet. Snowden’s bigger crime is believability and that’s what they will now attack. Alinsky rules.
If that doesn’t work, they’ll switch to Clockers rules: We just borrowed the information by accident. Once we read about it in the British newspaper, we took steps to correct the situation.
nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:46 amlooks like Robert Dietz left the NSA 7 years ago
http://policy.gmu.edu/tabid/86/default.aspx?uid=153
I wonder if there’s been any change in the programs since then or in their technological capabilities
and what was his job at the NSA?
“he represented the NSA in all legal matters”
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:47 amAnd it’s relevant and material that the information was not available to Snowden, per se? But to people with higher pay grades? Say like 88 rogue IRS employees in Cincinnatti?
nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:48 amfeets is correct on this that once credibility is lost it needs to be regained with much effort
that said, I have heard others with claimed experience with the NSA and such saying that he is doing a lot of BS’ing
for example, though i have talked about concerns with databases of medical records, I know that some hospital systems have security built in to protect privacy, so that not just anybody can look into the records of a VIP patient, and everybody who looks at a VIP’s record is captured by the computer system
I assume the NSA has the capability to monitor who is accessing what
which does not at all address the problem of what they could do if people in authority wanted to
but it does address the idea that any joe the analyst can look into whoever they wanted
not a real relief, if you ask me, but at least be accurate about it
does make for an interesting scenario of a true puppet government if everybody is being blackmailed by someone with the goods
I mean, you can be honest and law abiding and still not want a phone call to a spouse (your own!) played on YouTube.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:49 amThis happened after Manning was allowed to run rampant like a kid in Willy Wonka’s factory, so
narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:49 amI’m skeptical.
In one way, it would not make sense at all for people in NSA to let people under them to access just any records, including their own.
I don’t think the NSA chief wants to let an NSA underling monitoring his family, for example.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:54 am” it’s that Snowden’s claims sound far-fetched on their face —”
Then why are they sop excited ?
Manning sure had the information. Why not Snowden ? And assume these supervisors were competent ? The IRS is blaming “rogue clerks” and now NSA says it couldn’t happen. Too many versions of the truth.
Mike K (dc6ffe) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:54 amso excited, not sop
Mike K (dc6ffe) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:55 am“sop” was right if Freudian, Mike. Standard operating procedure — lie, minimize, excuse, accuse.
nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:57 am“Honesty comes hard to government.” USDC Judge Lynn Hughes, U.S. v. Edwin P. Wilson (below).
The purpose of the Constitution was to limit, tie down, the federal government – as abuse of power was taken for granted by the Founding Fathers. Recall the Pentagon Papers? Recall Watergate? Because so many lawyers – government lawyers – ignored the Rule of Law and their oaths & duties in Watergate, thereafter a professional responsibility course was mandated in law schools and it became a new required part to all state bar exams.
But things only got worse. See U.S. v. Edwin P. Wilson, 289 F. Supp. 2nd 801 (USDC-SD, Texas, 2003) where Judge Lynn Hughes reversed and vacated the conviction of Wilson (after he served 17 years, 10 in solitaire) based on massive prosecutorial and other government attorney/agency misconduct, including perjured testimony, fabricated evidence and the withholding of evidence. There Judge Hughes wrote in part, starting at page 802:
“Twenty years ago the government tried a former central intelligence officer for exporting explosives to Libya. His defense was simple. He said he was still working for the Company. The government refused to disclose records of his continued association with the agency. When he presented witnesses to his contacts after the end of his formal employment, the government convinced the judge to admit an affidavit from a principal CIA official to the effect that there were, with one minor exception, none—zero. There were, in fact, over 80 contacts, including actions parallel to those in the charges.
“[P] … Because the government knowingly used false evidence against him and suppressed favorable evidence, his conviction will be vacated. [P] This opinion refers only to the part of the record that the government has reluctantly agreed may be made public. It does not attempt to recount even that limited range of data in its entirety; the governmental deceit mentioned here is illustrative—not exhaustive.
* * *
[at 809] “Honesty comes hard to the government. It describes its non-disclosure as ‘information allegedly concealed by the Briggs declaration.’ (Gov’t Answer at 64.) This is a semantic game—the information was not allegedly concealed; it was actively concealed… [P] The investigation is a dodge; there was no need to investigate: it knew the affidavit was false before it offered it. …”
* * *
[at 811] “The government says that its use of the false affidavit was an innocent error. … In this case, however, the falsity comes from high public officials with access to voluminous records—not some high school dropout street-level drug dealer with a memory of one sale. … [P] … The evidence, now, shows that the hierarchies of both the Justice Department and CIA were as knowledgeable as was the individual talking to the judge and jury. … The court has identified about two dozen government lawyers who actively participated in the original non-disclosure to the defense, the false rebuttal testimony, and the refusal to correct it. …”
* * *
[at 815] ”In the course of American justice, one would have to work hard to conceive of a more fundamentally unfair process with a consequently unreliable result than the fabrication of false data by the government, under oath by a government official, presented knowingly by the prosecutor in the court room with the express approval of his superiors in Washington.”
* * *
[at 816] “This sort of behavior is among the reasons that the Constitution allows an accused to confront the witnesses against him. Instead of a witness who Wilson could examine before the jury, in his Texas trial Wilson was contradicted by a dishonest agency issued from a bunker in Virginia.”
__________________________________________________
It must be pointed out, several of the intimately involved federal lawyers/officials in the Wilson case had their careers greatly enhanced by the conviction and “went on to become some of the most prominent men in legal circles today” including becoming federal judges. (See April 28, 2005 ABC Nightline expose The Most Dangerous Man in American–Conviction of former CIA Agent Overturned on False Affidavit at http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/print?id=708779.) Did anything happen to those involved federal lawyers/officials who lied, deceived and manufactured evidence? Or did government protect them? The matter provided a test case whether we have a Rule of Law? a meaningful Constitution? or tyranny?
The government is too big, has too many secrets, too often invents boogeymen, engages in too much mischief – and too, too, often is not held accountable. The government bad actors in the Wilson case – two dozen government lawyers in the DOJ & CIA acted with the express approval of high superiors in Washington – did their dirty deeds in federal court. And did it before a federal judge, who let them do it and get away with it. And it was affirmed on appeal by a panel of three (3) federal judges.
Past is Prologue. And now we have the secret FISA court. Checks its stats. The court is a rubber stamp for government. There is no gate keeper.
History teaches power will be abused and governments can not be trusted. It must always be watched.
Liberty & Truth require constant vigilance.
Gary L. Zerman (3eb704) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:04 amThere is absolutely no way an IT guy would have the authorities (his word) to wiretap anyone. He may have had the capability to do that, just as the IT guy in every major office of every major company has the capability to read emails of employees. But there is no way he had the authority.
That alone, in my book, makes him a self-aggrandizing liar.
He’s not a whistleblower. Whistleblowers expose criminal acts. The only one committing a criminal act was Snowden.
Yes, he exposed a controversial legal practice, and yes, there always is an important debate to be had on the role of government in privacy versus security. But we had that debate seven years ago, and the current system, uncomfortable as it might be to some, was what Democrats and Republicans in Congress came up with through the legislative process. It involves all three branches of government — including judicial and legislative oversight — as a check against NSA abuse.
Now, it may be true that certain people within the intelligence community may have the capability to overstep their authority, and read emails, etc. of anyone they wanted, without court approval. And if Snowden did that, then he’s bucking the law.
Kman (5576bf) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:18 amNSA analysts … are subject to stringent internal supervision
and yet Mr. Snowden scampered away like a little bespectacled bunny with the NSA’s mostest sensitive secret
the fact that it’s been engaging in creepy wholesale spying on American citizens
stringently, and with internal supervision
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:21 amThat wascawy wabbit. You know who’s without credibility. Obama’s minions. That was not a quiz. You do know!
nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:31 amRule 1203 of the IRS code lists any number of reasons why the folks who targeted the conservatives “must be terminated”. So far we’ve seen five resignations, retirements, or reassignments. And a lot of bafflegab about poor customer service. The prosecution rests.
glenn (647d76) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:32 am“where does that leave us on this story”
The same place- the NSA needs to be abolished.
Patrick H (f854d7) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:40 amNarciso, Manning was not in the NSA. He had access to different Intel entirely.
SPQR (fac11e) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:46 amI think he’s an exaggerator too, a Paulian, and it’s no accident that he landed with Glen Greenwald, another extremist. That said, I also think it’s only a matter of time before somebody deep in the bowels of the million-square-foot NSA data unit really does misuse this thing for political purposes, namely, the Dems.
And until they start using regular human intelligence, like guys who fly to Chechnya or give PP presentations on jihad, I said NO to Prism. IMHO, PRism is a workaround the sickness of PC. From the ticket taker at Logan who chastized himself for thinking Atta looked like a terrorist, to the Army that brushed off Hasan, to the FBI that cleared Tsarnaev, this cynical manipulation has already claimed too many lives.
Patricia (be0117) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:46 amNo, he was in military intelligence, not a reassuring distinction,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:49 amWhat a dragonslaying nitwit like Snowden who takes it upon himself to liberate secrets that don’t belong to him in order to save mankind is the real cost of his betrayal. He could have used the whistleblower protections available to him by law but he chose to act outside the law. His revelations are certainly explosive and scary but undoubtedly exaggerated.
NSA has been dealing with how to handle interception of communications by Americans forever. 9/11 revealed America was a black hole by both law and practice to the intelligence community allowing the free flow of foreign communications through it except as authorized by FISA.
The current administration has given us many reasons to mistrust but despite Snowden’s revelations this isn’t one of them. It’s easy to imagine the worst in this but it’s important to remember NSA’s military counterparts operate within CONUS without endangering the public every day. No tanks or troops assault cities. No aircraft bomb us, not even drones. No ships blockade or bombard us. Even though they could they don’t. There are innumerable policies and procedures in place to operate safely.
It’s important to remember this is not an either/or debate it’s a both/and debate. There is no reason we can’t have both liberty and security. How best to do that is always debatable. But this isn’t the way to start the discussion.
crazy (d60cb0) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:53 amThe fact is everything his critcs say COULD be in place, query logs and such, would make doing what he suggested difficult … thats assume those controls are in place …
Rememer there are “controls” in place on IRS data … look how well that worked …
… but someone with system admin access who was so inclined could possibly get around some of those safeguards or logs (using another persons PC when they are at lunch for example …)
JeffC (488234) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:55 amGreetings:
Elsewhere I read that Mr. Snowden, who has fled to Hong Kong, was in fear for his life from an attack by the “triads”. It’s starting to sound more than a bit like a Bruce Lee movie sequel to me. And he has obviously missed out on that going into the lion’s den story. I sure hope his kung fu is strong.
11B40 (d41189) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:58 amThe question about Snowden is: Is he mistaken, or is he lying?
John Miller of CBS News sort of gave him the benefit of the doubt in saying Snowden might be using the word “authorized” in a technical sense, (in that he could have had computer authority to look into anything)
But that’s a hard thing to confuse. He surely was told what he had a right to do and not.
Another thing: Senator Dianne Feinstein said there was another thing she was not empowered to release that placed limitations on the use of the data. Snowden surely could have gotten a copy of that.
But he wanted to make a sensation (unless he thought secrecy about that was valuable – but he was blowing it up. It might be valuable to him anyway, to give to some other country or entity)
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:06 amThe Guardian indicated there are several months more worth of stories they have.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:07 amhttp://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/11/smart-power-us-allies-stunned-at-scope-of-nsa-surveillance/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:08 amI don’t doubt that, if six months ago someone asked officials at the EPA whether contract employees were building “man caves” in one of their warehouses, their response would be: “No, of course not. That would be illegal, and we have strict oversight to prevent that sort of thing.”
Roscoe (15d927) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:16 amHe may or may not be a liar (evidence seems to lean that way) but this is still ridiculous. The mere fact that they even have access to this kind of info on people not suspected of wrongdoing is scary.
The Government should not be capable of this period (unless of course the exwife suspected of being involved in a crime).
This blanket ability to collect everything, shove it in a black box and look at it later if they want to (the FISA court appears to be a huge rubber stamp as best I can tell) is extremely dangerous.
I mean are they sweeping up Attorney-client, Doctor-patient, Judges or Congressional privileged communications? The potential for abuse is astounding. Do you trust Obama not to let his people ‘peek’ at a file or two about the 2016 Republican candidate?
Judging by the massive corruption being uncovered daily, I do not believe we should approve of this kind of massive surveillance.
Dawnsblood (fbd76c) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:20 am7. Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:49 am
This happened after Manning was allowed to run rampant like a kid in Willy Wonka’s factory, so I’m skeptical
What Manning did was copy down just about the whole contents of a datebase (limited to “Secret” material but not “Top Secret”) of both military and diplomatic secret reports, that was being made available to analysts, so they could search for relevabnt information. They weren’t supposed to look at anything not related to their job, but it was mostly left up to the individual analysts.
There was not suppoosed to be any way of copying files. But what they had done by the time Manning was there was instal more modern computers.
The CD-ROM drives were CD-Read and Write, as they probably had not been when the system was first created.
Manning put in a CD-ROM and pretended to be listening to music, and over a period of time, copied a tremednous amount of data.
They fixed that – no more CD RW- and also removed some State Department material from the military system I think.
This here was a totally different system, not even maintained by the government but contracted out to a trusted corporation, once headed by James R. Clapper. Or at least this was his latest job. He only had that last job three months. You have to wonder if there was some person or persons guiding him and placing him.
The system seems to have been a master database that contained everything or access to everything, divided by agency (FBI, NSA etc)
Snowden was one of the people in charge of making sure the firewalls remained intact. To do that he and others had to be able to get into all accounts.
So he had access to everything and certainly to a general table of contents amnd description.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:21 amAnd since Snowden helped maintain the system, he could attach peripherals to download copies, or perhaps e-mail them.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:22 amSammylanches are always so fun.
JD (129489) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:29 amComment by Dawnsblood (fbd76c) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:20 am
This blanket ability to collect everything, shove it in a black box and look at it later if they want to (the FISA court appears to be a huge rubber stamp as best I can tell) is extremely dangerous.
I think it happened that way because the companies did not want to give the government a back door, or maintain and preserve any records they otherwise would not. They also did not want to “voluntarily” hand over anything.
So everything was subpoenaed. It then I think requires a second something (that’s what Feinstein was hinting at) to actually run a search. The second something might have been an internal control, but it was something.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:31 amSammylanches?
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:31 amEdward Snowden might well be a fabulist. I wouldn’t know. I do know that the harrumphing about “strict oversight” is a goddamned joke. The WSJ reported the other day that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has approved all but 11 requests for warrants in THIRTY THREE YEARS, a approval rate of 99.97%. Forgive me if I take little comfort in the protective embrace of oversight.
Additionally, why would a “whistleblower” use the supposedly legal avenues for exposing such things when sits in the White House a man who has used the 1917 Espionage Act to prosecute more people than all of his predecessors combined?
radar (257ad5) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:32 amIt sounds like they were careful about the Fourth Amendment, and worked around it..
The 4th amendment does not apply to business records held by third parties (material useful for billing) so they got records of teplephone calls made.
It also does not apply to foreigners. So they could get e-mails sent to foreign addresses.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:35 amJD, I’ll go with “Sammylanches”.
SPQR (768505) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:40 amHey kids, why bust your butt to gain admission to Princeton, Stanford, or Northwestern, when you can drop out of high school and still land a 122K per year job as a national security contractor with the Obama Administration !
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:41 amHow do we correct these abuses?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:41 amEither willingly through Congress reining in the Leviathan that they are complicit in creating;
or,
When enough people finally get their fill of this, and force the government back into its Constitutional cubby-hole, under Rule-7.62!
Are you sure you’re not confusing the technical ability to do what he said he can do vs. the social ability to do so?
In other words, his “authorities” as he’s using the term may not doesn’t refer to his ability to go to his boss and say, “I’m going to spy on Joe Black,” and gain approval, but that he knew enough about the systems that he could do so without asking. Although he may have been unaware of other systems in place to detect his actions, so he could both be telling the truth and wrong in essence at the same time?
That’s just a thought. And who knows how effective systems to catch unauthorized surveillance by employees and contractors really are?
However, his point isn’t even that he would have gotten away with it, more so that the capacity to do this near universal surveillance exists with ease to NSA.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:43 amOh, narcisco, and SPQR:
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:44 amMost of those who labor for NSA, or did when I was involved a long time ago, were members of “military intelligence” in special commands of the Army (ASA), Navy (NSG), and Air Force (AFSS).
We worked a lot cheaper than GS’s, and didn’t demand the perks that they did; but we all reported eventually to Ft. Meade.
Former Conservative, but all forms of illegal action are the same. Just because someone says, “Hey, I could murder anyone” we don’t think they necessarily are saying “Hey, I could murder anyone … even though I won’t get away with it”.
SPQR (768505) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:45 amaskeptic, I know that. I had some dealings with NSA in a different century … and a different career. Manning wasn’t in NSA. Manning was using a database of various intel and misc. information assembled for theater command.
SPQR (768505) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:46 amBut, it is all cross-connected.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:51 amThe amount of data that comes in just in reports from other entities is staggering.
Manning might not have been “in” NSA, but his MOS (I don’t know what his MOS was) could have been one that put him in an NSA-associated Army Command that was in the network.
Plus, I think that all of the various intel entities talk much more between themselves than they did “in the day”, which is in response to the isolation that 9/11 exposed.
With greater cross-connectedness, you have an increased possiblility of abuse.
I’m not particularly worried about the low-level NSA analyst with a grudge against his ex-wife. Those people will be caught.
But what about the high-level staffer, who has the authority to tell her underlings, “Erase my queries from yesterday from the logs.” Even if she gets caught, she can immediately invoke “executive privilege”, and get away with it.
I’m worried about the Democrat operative who gets an anonymous package containing all the phone records of a conservative 501(c)4 organization. I’m worried about the union thug who somehow comes into possession of the addresses of Republican donors.
Does anyone honestly think the President or one of his immediate underlings would be questioned if they asked for that kind of data? Especially after seeing Snowden prosecuted for the miniscule amount of information he has released?
Hired Mind (7f3e0d) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:09 amI don’t see anything inconsistent between his claim and the experts response. Would he get caught? Apparently, according to the claims mostly by “unnamed experts”. Depends on whom was doing the “checking”, hm?
But his claim that he COULD do it doesn’t appear to be effectively countered. Only that there are after-the-fact checks and balances to catch that.
The hoops someone playing by the rules has to go through vs. someone doing an end-run around the process are often two very different things. Any check that depends on people is undependable.
As an auditor and software designer, I know more than a little about how software developers think vs. real people in the field. BIG difference.
All I see so far is claims and counter-claims. I have not seen anything conclusive one way or another. I do detect a strong bias against Snowden due to the illegality of what he claims to have done. Doesn’t mean he isn’t right. I’m taking a “Wait and see” and “follow up on the story” attitude until more details emerge.
Yehoodi (ee00fa) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:18 amOne of the Guardian articles said that he puts a large red hood over his head and computer screen when entering passwords so they cannot be monitored by cameras. Only a security goof could believe that electromagnetic radiation emitted by the computer would be defeated with a “Faraday Hoodie.” This is basic spy movie stuff.
tek (2063de) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:24 amHey, maybe Snowden is just a diversion. The real spying is taking place in the man caves in the EPA warehouse/gym!!!
Patricia (be0117) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:35 amNo, they aren’t. Almost everyone commits crimes (an average of three felonies) on a daily basis — there are simply too many federal laws to do otherwise, nevermind state laws.
That’s why I distinguish between doing right and obeying the law. Whatever moral force the law may, in principle, have had, it has undermined itself by being impossible to obey.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:43 amOh good! there’s tremendous oversight! No reason to be concerned! It’s not like there’s been any recent examples of any government agency with layers of oversight that ran amok for years targeting people with whom they disagreed!
PATTERICO you f&$)ing government stooge monkey!!!!
Deep (fa2fee) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:52 amRacist
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:00 amThat’s what I was getting at. Also that while this 29-year old may not have gotten away with it for long, someone more senior with political clout probably could, would, and has. The IRS can’t even remember who gave the order!
The NSA can be expected to be more transparent and accountable than the IRS? That seems … naive.
I think conservatives just naturally fetishize security forces (military, police) or something like that, as if these are the one good part of government. And not really. They’re inherrently capable of enforcing tyrannical orders — with gusto!
That’s what the Founders knew.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:01 amWe all know how effective those “layers of oversight” are at places such as the NYT, why would government be any different?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:02 amFormer Conservative – Completely BS article and premise.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:02 am“…someone more senior with political clout probably could, would, and has…”
You mean like the DNI, would joked about reading people’s emails at a dinner for Gen. Hayden?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:04 amhttp://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2013/06/11/tee-hee-clapper-jokes-at-banquet-about-reading-peoples-e-mails/
We should have listened to Eisenhower
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:07 amMore than 50 years ago, Ike all but predicted the factors that led to the NSA’s massive snooping enterprise
By Edward Morrissey
I’ve never worked with the NSA, but I have worked in a position wherein I had loads of access to confidential materials: all I needed was a name. (In theory, I could have accessed the Tsarnav brothers’ information.) I would have lost my job, in theory, but I had actual access to that data. There was no technological/procedural limitation outside of my own common sense and desire to remain employed.
bridget (84c06f) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:09 amWe should have listened to Eisenhower
More than 50 years ago, Ike all but predicted the factors that led to the NSA’s massive snooping enterprise
By Edward Morrissey
(reposted with link to the article in The Week)
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:09 amI think conservatives just naturally fetishize security forces (military, police) or something like that
Nonsense
JD (b63a52) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:10 amThat was my experience also in a similar position. Sure, some internal team monitored this and a few days later, you could expect to be fired, but … getting the info, no biggie.
And if you were the leader of the department, who is going to fire you? The President?
lol
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:11 amI imagine Obama is happy that the national water cooler conversation has switched from “is the President using the I.R.S. to punish his political adversaries ?” to “Obama is overreaching with all of this snooping, but his motive is that he wants to protect the country !”
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:13 amSo people who work for the agency that’s been wholesale spying on millions of Americans say it’s not true. You believe them…why, exactly?
Just like the IRS, right?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:14 amSure seems like some people are desperately trying to find any reason to shoot the messenger on this one, eh?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:16 amEisenhower intended to warn against the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex, but his WH advisers insisted on removing the reference to the role of the Congress in the dangerous alignment Ike saw threatening the Republic.
Ike may have had Senate Majority Leader, Lyndon Johnson (D-TX) in mind.
ropelight (d228fd) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:18 amI happen to have more respect for the professionalism of the NSA than the IRS – based on personal experience.
But that said, I’m not excusing the NSA in this or any other part of the Obama administration. I think that PRISM may be overreaching but part of the problem is that I don’t think the reporting is accurate yet on the program’s actual scope.
SPQR (768505) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:22 am“It’s not that I inherently trust these people”
Rumplestilskin awoke this week. The burden of proof is on the other foot now, Sleepy.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:25 amMaybe Snowden dropped acid and saw that Bourne movie where David Strathairn’s character was able to monitor in real time every cell phone call across the globe and Snowden presumed he actually was at work? Or maybe this all is a bait and switch: perhaps Snowden will pull a McGreevey, declare that he’s a “gay American” and then on college campuses and in newsrooms they’ll have posters of him on their walls and such.
But on a serious note, this isn’t rocket science. Snowden is a young and addled guy with a bone to pick, who’s about to be hit with the brutal smack of reality. Even an amateur would have known simply to remain anonymous. Why throw away your entire life over items that for years already have been taking place and which largely are accepted in the post-9/11 universe? No sentient adult could be that dumb. And the next whisleblower case without material exaggerations by the whistleblower along with layers of hearsay will be the very first of its kind.
That’s not to say we should unplug our brains on the flip side of this bad penny, and simply accept as true every unsourced quote in a far-left, Obama-worshipping newspaper, i.e., the L.A. Times. Other than Robert Deitz, who didn’t really negate too many of Snowden’s allegations, those “sources” for all we know might be Jay Carney himself.
Ultimately this story soon will be forgotten and the chattering classes will move on to their next item of loopiness. Par for the courses. But the key underlying issue will remain unresolved. If you give a Chicago kleptocracy of a political cabal vast powers the results will be disastrous, on many levels.
William Scalia (4fc30a) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:33 amForest versus Trees.
Not sure what calling out “Jose Canseco” for being full of shit has anything to do with his basic assertion “baseball is riddled with steroids.”
Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:34 am#34, Any Republican using that line of reasoning for “business records” needs to report to the office for a spanking from Bill Clinton. He provided similar answers too and they railed hard against him. Fucking Lawyers.
Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:41 amAs long as the scope of the NSA PRISM surveillance strictly excludes collection and trawling of domestic communications, unless it involves a specific situation related to a foreign individual or foreign communication, and there is no collection of data in advance of a specific warrant that can be commanded by domestic law enforcement, it can pass muster as a reasonable and legal foreign intelligence operation.
Anything that collects and trawls information about domestic communications, ties, associations, movements, locations on a general basis – the equivalent of a general warrant – is an intolerable violation of the fourth amendment.
SarahW (b0e533) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:48 amis no good
my country right or wrong except for when it’s wrong and this is one of those times
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:56 amExperts vs. IT guy:
I’m no genius but I’ve used a kernel debugger to locate errors in Beta SDKs, fix and recompile. OS/2 and Windows NT.
This is equivalent to modifying the operating system. Inotherwords, what is feasible for the user is not exactly a limit on possibilities.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:04 pmThe Demonization Machine Cranks Up Against Edward Snowden
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:09 pmBy Matt Welch
Reason
Any NSA analyst “at any time can target anyone, any selector, anywhere,” Snowden told the Guardian. “I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal email.”
Snowden never said he could do it “legally”
If somebody told you they could blow your head off, you really aren’t going to quibble if it’s legal.
Neo (d1c681) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:18 pmI keep not finding this “unless it involves talking to foreigner” clause in the 4th Amendment. Can somebody help me out?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:23 pmYou’re talking about Van Eck phreaking which is using a monitor’s electromagnetic emissions to recreate a monitor’s output. A normal hood wouldn’t defeat that, but a copper mesh lined hood would. Also it says he does it to defeat cameras. Different animal. Every kid and their granny has a camera. Lots fewer Van Eck capable dudes roaming around.
bonhomme (a73d63) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:24 pmGreat point.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:30 pmAlso, anybody with a bit of budget can shield sensitive rooms against Van Eck phreaking. It’s simply a matter of building a Faraday Cage room. Once you have that, you might take the next step to mandate hoods while entering passwords. Could be this dude is continuing the process he was taught.
bonhomme (a73d63) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:32 pmAnyone remember the Joe the Plumber leaks (no pun intended)? About a day after that famous interaction, low-level employees had leaked hi the rest to the press. We know for a fact that low-level employees have access to this stuff on the state level; why do we think that the feds have different systems in place?
Again, there’s a fundamental difference between actual lack of access (e.g. a low-level employee simply cannot get the data) versus punishing inappropriate access (which allows the agency, at its discretion, to punish those who access unathorised materials, after such access has occurred).
Saying that you have a bunch of policies in procedures means that you’re dealing with the second type of system.
bridget (84c06f) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:50 pmI say Snowden’s claims are NOT absurd
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:13 pmYou can see that spying on foreign actors is the business of an agency set up to manage the risk of hostile foreign actions. It can never be the business of foreign intelligence to spy with what is the equivalent of a general warrant on the domestic population.
SarahW (b0e533) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:21 pmI forget the source, could be zerohedge, but I’ve seen it a couple places, Japan has a browser identifying infrastructure addresses all over the web.
From your refrigerator to utilities’ control points.
One of my tasks in the old days was creating and accessing at low to high levels I/O ports including Telco switches themselves, providing integration with the telephone network for voice mail and advanced phone features like Caller ID.
An IT guy wouldn’t necessarily need the lowest level access to redirect I/O from/to a client site. Its easy to rewrite a computer’s registry and even password entries given one compiles for the target.
Snowden doesn’t have to be referring in the least to normal procedure.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:45 pmbut of course
E.PWJ (c3dbb4) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:58 pmprecisely
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:01 pmI agree with bridget’s comment #72.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:01 pm68. Comment by CTD (0d0f3f) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:23 pm
I keep not finding this “unless it involves talking to foreigner” clause in the 4th Amendment. Can somebody help me out?
Because they are wiretapping or hacking the account of the foreigner, not the American.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:15 pm>> Subject to stringent internal supervision and also the external oversight”
> Just like the IRS, right?
And the Census Bureau.
Some agencies are better than otehrs.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:17 pmMore ‘user beware’ analysis.
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/11/senior-nsa-official-only-30-or-40-agency-officials-had-access-to-that-fisa-order-that-leaked/
“Master hacker”, magic to one man is routine to another. This is the government ya know.
Clapper is head honcho, remember?
‘Thirty or 40 agency officials’ like McCain who can’t update his phone or change the password from 0000.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:17 pmWell, that #47 was a breath of fresh air..
I think Snowdens claims are in a sense validated by the government response.
They don’t deny certain charges, they just do not address them or reply to them. They change the subject.
Other issues are confirmed when the feds say “we don’t read everything we gather, so your private info is safe”.
The feds have to put out a message that stops the curtain from opening any more, while misdirecting the bad guys.
Long story short, they’ll never tell us the truth.
SteveG (794291) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:17 pmThey’ll either be covering their own asses, or covering for the Prism system as it works on scooping up data for drone strikes
35. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:40 am
JD, I’ll go with “Sammylanches”.
What are Sammylanches?
A kind of sandwich?
https://www.google.com/search?q=lanches&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=dZS3UfqiIZDA4APj0YH4CQ&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1264&bih=866
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:20 pmYeah, still not seeing the “unless it’s on a phone line used by a foreigner” exception to the 4th Amendment. Could you find it for me?
CTD (0d0f3f) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:38 pmSounding more and more like a fabulist to me.
Some of the reporting is beginning to catch up with him — though some of its is laughable in its inaccuracies.
One I read earlier today said he and his girlfriend rented a bungalow in Waipahu, a town near Pearl Harbor, which is described as an “upscale suburb”.
Wow – no one I know living on Oahu would consider Waipahu and “upscale suburb”.
Waipahu is known to those of us living here as pretty much a lower-income enclave predominantly populated by ethnic Filipinos, some parts of which would be most accurately described as slums. There is nothing “upscale” about Waipahu.
shipwreckedcrew (848932) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:55 pmSandy Burglar should have did substantial time in the crow bar hotel.
mg (31009b) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:06 pmCrickets. Crickets. Crickets.
Leave the kid alone.
People, he is not the problem.
We are.
Per the NYT, ACLU has filed suit against the government over this.
The American Civil Liberties Union on Tuesday filed a lawsuit against the Obama administration over its “dragnet” collection of logs of domestic phone calls, contending that the once-secret program — whose existence was exposed by a former National Security Agency contractor last week — is illegal and asking a judge to both stop it and order the records purged.
The lawsuit, filed in New York, could set up an eventual Supreme Court test. A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment.
The A.C.L.U. has frequently assisted other plaintiffs in challenges against national security policies, but the government has generally persuaded courts to dismiss such lawsuits without any ruling on the legal merits after arguing that litigation over any classified program would reveal state secrets or that the plaintiffs could not prove they were personally affected and so lacked standing to sue.
This case may be different. The government has now declassified the existence of the program on domestic call record “metadata.” And the A.C.L.U. itself is a customer of Verizon Business Network Services — the subsidiary of Verizon Communications that was the recipient of a leaked secret court order for all its domestic calling records — which it says gives it direct standing to bring the lawsuit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/us/aclu-files-suit-over-phone-surveillance-program.html?smid=tw-bna
elissa (0bd6f8) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:06 pmYou can think Snowden is a creep and a criminal and not like what the NSA is doing. Mark Steyn nails it.
EBL (d0b1d5) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:12 pmIn regards to stories related to Snowden:
1) Keep in mind that the NSA and other U.S. intel agencies will be putting out a lot of information to contradict, contort, falsely endorse what Snowden says. So, “officials” may be doing their duty in order to create more noise so that the truth is blurred.
2) Though he may be exaggerating his story, his computer expertise could very well have allowed him to see more than some kind of field operator, cryptographer, etc.
Jason (483c0e) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:35 pmit is darkly amusing that we already know more about Edward Snowden’s background and history in just a few days than we do about Obumbles after all these years.
or is it racist to question the motives and activities of the MFM and what they choose to cover?
redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:39 pmGentlemen,
Perhaps I’m a wee bit behind the curve, but why are some giving greater weight to an NSA official with everything to lose than to a man who has lost everything?
Opinion: The NSA official is gripping.
Tell me, has Snowden dropped operational data or supplied names?
No.
What Snowden has supplied are the broad brush strokes to a canvas of charcoal outlines.
Therefore, I want more. More information and more specifics before passing judgement on Snowden and the NSA and Prism programs.
scott (b8618e) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:56 pmToday is Tuesday. By Friday this should be thoroughly debunked that NSA had “direct” access to providers’ servers and was doing real time monitoring of people’s accounts.
I have worked in Silicon Valley for nearly 20 years and initially worked as a systems administrator and for the past 15 have been a network engineer. I have worked at various places who have clients globally and dealing with requests for information by various agencies is a normal part of business. But I will tell people this: it is a lot easier for your county Sheriff to get your email than it is for NSA to get it.
I would actually trust NSA with potential access to email more than I would trust the justice department under Holder. NSA is an intelligence agency, not a law enforcement agency and they are under Dept. of Defense. They don’t have a bunch of political appointees in the organization, unlike Justice which not only has the AG, but also has nearly 100 US Attorneys who may display varying degrees of political activism in their positions.
Also, I believe that things like giving NSA access to phone records REDUCES the amount of communications snooping and accidental snooping against innocent citizens and I think that is why they do that. For example, say I have a known terrorist associate in Pakistan who is on the phone with someone in the UK. Then I check to see if anyone in the US has been talking to that guy in Pakistan or the guy in the UK. If I get some positives, who are they talking to? Now I have a pretty fertile target list for further scrutiny and I can leave other people along and not have to resort to blanket snooping and hoping to “get lucky”.
I will say this, I am not aware of any network or any provider that has knowingly allowed NSA to have carte blanche access to their servers or to user accounts. Ever.
I would suggest following this story and some of the links from it:
http://www.zdnet.com/the-real-story-in-the-nsa-scandal-is-the-collapse-of-journalism-7000016570/
crosspatch (49bf90) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:05 pm#94 Your post does nothing to address the accuracy of the story. You are arguing details which I am not sure are even important if accurate or not.
Again, this story is becoming some veri-check exercise for each sentence written or spoken in this story and missing the big picture.
And here is the big picture, this program has already been used inapproriately to bust Spitzer-the-douche-nozzle-who abused-his-power-as-NY-AG and one of the lawsuits filed today by a Military Family alleges used of NSA data to come after them.
This happy-land people live in where this treasure trove of great data to pursue enemies (guilty or not) is not touched unless it is for terrorism or national security is FANTASYLAND.
If you got it in the quiver, you are going to shoot it when needed.
Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:32 pm#95 This has been used and abused and will do so again and again and again.
Plus, there are so many better and cheaper ways of doing this that one has to wonder if the folks building this giant data mining project are really doing it for terrorism or some exercise in big brother with side benefits in terrorism.
Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:33 pmThe notion of “they can see your thoughts as they form” is bogus. They do not have real-time access to user accounts. A lot of this emotional upset is being caused by people who have no access to the program reading a power point presentation designed for consumption by analysts (not collectors) and might be a marketing presentation created when NSA was being sold on the program and might represent anticipated potential capabilities and not capabilities as eventually created and used.
Most of this hype is based on speculation and extrapolation and darned few facts. People are getting all worked up over other people’s guesses.
crosspatch (49bf90) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:36 pmCrosspatch, ever use a product like Team Viewer?
Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:43 pmDid anyone catch this and realize the meaning?
Robert Deitz, a former top lawyer at the NSA and CIA, called the claim a “complete and utter” falsehood.
“First of all it’s illegal,” he said. “There is enormous oversight. They have keystroke auditing. There are, from time to time, cases in which some analyst is [angry] at his ex-wife and looks at the wrong thing and he is caught and fired,” he said.
What is it that the Director said? “We have not been collecting info on American citizens except unwittingly, and that info is purged.”
How is it that someone can look at what his ex-wife’s intel, unless they are capturing info on American citizens.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:49 pmWhatever the capabilities are now, or what they could become – some things are off the table and they must affirm it is out of bounds, illegal, and will not continue – or BEGIN.
Also OT Weiner news: premature publication
SarahW (b0e533) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:57 pm#99 Not sure folks are paying attention to the ABSURD GIGANTIC LIE the government is spinning but your point is dead on and highlights the lie to all. Good catch.
Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:58 pmlink fix http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/the-new-york-times-anthony-weiner-story-92569.html?ml=po_r
SarahW (b0e533) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:15 pmWilling to concede Snowden may be a piece of dreck.
And yet his allegations fare more proof the government is too big, tries to do too much, gets involved in pointless overseas commitments that do us no good, does everything expensively and mostly badly and incompetently so. We have the rise of a corporatist media state that grows for it’s on benefit, not that of American citizens.
The questions are now even worse. How did Snowden or anyone like him get a job and a security clearance? And way worse-what’s the point of Big Brother to the tune of $80 billion per annum if it cannot stop the likes of Hassan and the Tsarnaevs, who both did everything short of taking out ads and billboards in Times Square to make their intentions known.
Eisenhower was not pessimistic enough.
Bugg (b32862) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:21 pmEveryone is overlooking the forest for the trees. The gubbyment is actually confirming what he said is true. By announcing they will prosecute him for disclosing classified intel, they are announcing his validity. You can’t prosecute him, unless what he is saying is the truth. They will have to show that what he released was classified.
You couldn’t prosecute him if he said that the govt. was hiding evidence that the “Roswell UFO Incident” was actually aliens and research was being conducted at Area 51, unless it was actually true. If it wasn’t true, it couldn’t be classified.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:27 pmNSA is an intelligence agency, not a law enforcement agency and they are under Dept. of Defense. They don’t have a bunch of political appointees in the organization
I’m not so sure about that. Lower-level people throughout almost any hierarchy or bureaucracy get their cues from the top echelon or head guy, which at this moment in the history of the US government is symbolized by a corrupt ultra-liberal like Obama and his cabal.
When reading the following, keep in mind it’s from a left-leaning website that is in full sympathy towards an aspect of today’s US military. The posting doesn’t bother to mention that a similar form of philosophical corruption (or, in their eyes, wisdom) surrounds Nidal Hasan, which that website or various other factions of the left may not be quite as thrilled about, but that such liberals also will not be all that appalled by—compared with, for example, a military saying homophobic things about Hasan.
^ I wouldn’t be surprised if Jack Rich (ie Lieutenant Colonel Rich) doesn’t also have the mindset that allowed Nidal Hasan to have free reign within the confines of the US Army until the day of the massacre at Fort Hood. The irony is that people like Rich — probably, likely of the left — will get a full heaping handful of “defamation” if the Sharia-Law crowd becomes more pervasive throughout the Western World.
BTW, I was talking with a devout liberal late last year, who is gay (or technically bisexual), following the election in November. I mentioned to him that Obama probably was bisexual. It was interesting to observe the look on the face of that person. He demeanor kind of both drooped and showed a bit of resentment, as though I had just insulted Obama. It’s amusing how no less than a gay liberal may reveal a subtle apprehension or disquiet about a top political leader that he likes being less than heterosexual.
Finally…
It’s hard to be quite as resentful or suspicious towards Edward Snowden (and he does deserve some skepticism or indignation from the public) in today’s era when loony liberalism overall is what’s truly casting a long, dark shadow over society.
Mark (cd1aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:27 pmThe Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) is a United States wiretapping law passed in 1994, during the presidency of Bill Clinton (Pub. L. No. 103-414, 108 Stat. 4279, codified at 47 USC 1001-1010).
CALEA’s purpose is to enhance the ability of law enforcement and intelligence agencies to conduct electronic surveillance by requiring that telecommunications carriers and manufacturers of telecommunications equipment modify and design their equipment, facilities, and services to ensure that they have built-in surveillance capabilities, allowing federal agencies to monitor all telephone, broadband internet, and VoIP traffic in real-time.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:35 pm14K serviceman raped, 12K servicewomen raped in 2011? That sounds ridiculous.That’s over 70 rapes every day. It sounds like a very made up statistic to distract the MFM from the real story. ANYTHING to avoid talking about the marriage of Big Data and Big Government.
Bugg (b32862) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:39 pmYes, crosspatch, they can monitor it in real time pursuant to CALEA.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:40 pmpeedoffetc #104 – this CALEA, it was passed by which party in the majority in House and Senate in 1994 ?
Alasdair (e7cb73) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:26 pm(he asked, innocently) …
95. Normally, one’s data is ‘pushed’ to the server when one updates, or presses ‘Submit’.
That does not mean data cannot be ‘pulled’, i.e., grabbed off your site with an open session.
True that our Nortons, McAffees, et al., should be alerting us, at minimum, to such shenanigans, but frankly Norton cannot even keep straight my subscription term. Then it will boot fine with the computer and later get hosed and turn off Antivirus and Malware protection without rhyme or reason.
Personally, a lot of people know a lot of stuff that just ain’t so and Experts are the worst offenders.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:30 pmi do not trust these “experts”
I trust Edward
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:34 pmHell, they can even turn your cell phone on and listen to conversations between you and whoever is in your immediate vicinity without your knowledge. The only way to prevent it is to remove the battery from the phone.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:35 pm93. The crux of the matter, if the power is available it will get used.
And orders will come from the top to do it long before given link in the chain knows they know how.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:36 pmThat is if’n they have your cell number.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:36 pmWhom to believe: Snowden or the former NSA officials? In this case, I think I am going with the latter. It’s not that I inherently trust these people; it’s that Snowden’s claims sound far-fetched on their face — especially the one about how he could have read anyone’s email for whom he had an email address, including Barack Obama.
Yep, pretty much what I said on the last thread.
Bill M (c8f413) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:48 pmOne of the better ways to cover up an actual conspiracy is to generate a bunch of wilder conspiracies and conflate the silly with the true.
Then wait for the Alex Joneses of the world to fill the airwaves with nonsense. Pretty soon all you have to do is roll your eyes when the questions come, and your actual conspiracy is safe.
The target remains the IRS being used to stop the Republican grassroots from participating in the 2012 election. Everything else is distraction.
Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:49 pmI know the Lawyers are fond of “it’s the Law”, and actually believe that if, oh, a third, or a quarter, or whatever portion, of those in power just obey the law things can be turned around.
This despite the fact that virtually the lot of them are lying every time they open their mouths, because they don’t know better, because its for the good of the country, because life should be like it were true, because they’ve got something to hide or something to gain or something to lose, or just because they can’t be truthful.
So, someday, when you least expect it, you ‘believers’ are going to turn the wrong corner, fink the wrong dude, get caught up with the liars and the thieves in backing the ‘way it is’ when you face off with the rest of us, the conservatives who know its come down to raw, naked power.
Heaven help us all.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:49 pm114. Yes. One of the better ways a conspiracy is to circulate false conspiracy theories. That’s what Bill Clinton did all the time. It may have happened with the assassination of JFK. And of Harding.
I thought I was the only one who realized that
Sammy Finkelman (c4d9d6) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:19 pmI thought this Obama person was supposed to be a champion of fairness. Or whatever.
Sounds more like he’s a champion of Orwellian tactics.
Elephant Stone (da6dfd) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:23 pmRemember the last few years when, inexplicably, stocks kept going up and bonds kept going down, contrary to conventional wisdom. Free money with nowhere else to flow.
So now, the exact opposite is happening, stocks tanking and bonds climbing. Where is all the money going? Free money is as abundant as before(for the time being), what gives?
Reports are we are reprising a Lehman-level liquidity crisis, i.e., a world drowning in debt is calling its bets in and there isn’t a hundredth the assets in the till for the markers.
Faith is lost and accelerating its departure.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:24 pmit’s that Snowden’s claims sound far-fetched on their face…
Speaking of which, Edward Snowden, meet Barack Obama. Barack Obama, meet Edward Snowden.
Mark (cd1aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:31 pmHere’s another problem;
http://neoneocon.com/2013/06/10/i-wonder/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:32 pmJust tallying the ranks: Rico, some NSA lawyer, Feinstein, Boehner, Bolton, Beldar, Sammy F., a retired NSA analyst or two and Bill M. all think everything we’ve said is lunacy.
Guess 20 years in electronic, computer and software engineering looks kinda putrid versus that weight of technological expertise.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:37 pm119. Thanks for the capsule.
Same with Ann Dunham’s sham marriage to Obama Sr. No reception, no marriage license, no witnesses. She ditched Hawaii to attend school in WA the following fall, leaving Obama Sr. behind.
Junior’s birth certificate is numbered out of sequence. He attended Occidental as Barry Soetoro, foreign national and obtained financial aid as such.
She was a micro-loan officer in Indonesia and Pakistan, not an anthropologist.
Yada, yada.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:54 pm120. Problem? That he continued in the trade while undermining it? Only for the conspiracy nuts.:)
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:57 pmMark, isn’t it funny how the President who pounded his chest about how his Administration would be the most transparent in history, has such a history of hiding, obfuscating, and fabricating his own records ?
I imagine he did transfer to Columbia perhaps as a foreign student, but that he must have dropped out right away, and instead of attending classes, he fell into a crowd of well-connected left wing activists in NYC who were able to pull some special strings in order to get him a diploma, somehow. That all sounds so corny—but if nobody remembers him from any class—how could it be that he actually went there ?
Certainly, there would have to be a buddy that he made in a poli sci class who could vouch for him. But there isn’t.
People are always eager to tell everyone who will listen that they went to school with such-and-such celebrity.
How come people remember Barry from high school, from Occidental, and from Harvard Law—but not Columbia ?
Elephant Stone (da6dfd) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:00 pmglobal warming experts say claims that we’re not all gonna die screaming in a heat-induced spasm of warmolepsy with attendant burning sensation are absurd
but me I don’t believe them
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:23 pmWell if nothing else, this thread topic and the previous one once and for all time shoots to hell Mahalia Cab’s and Perry’s meme that everybody who’s a regular commenter and reader of Patterico marches in lockstep!
elissa (0bd6f8) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:38 pmHe attended Occidental as Barry Soetoro, foreign national
has such a history of hiding, obfuscating, and fabricating his own records ?
Don’t forget the bit of info, per below.
This period in American history has a surrealistic quality about it. It’s like bad cinema come to life, or life imitating art. From Snowden, to the IRS, to Benghazi, to the gun running of Fast and Furious, to right-leaning heterosexuals (instead of GLBTers, or Nidal Hasan) becoming odd-man-out in the new US military, to Obama spending a holiday weekend with a dude (Obama’s “body man”) in Florida, while the wife and two kids were vacationing in Colorado, all against the backdrop of a shaky world economy.
I admit that a small part of me originally did think “tin foil hat” when certain — certain — suspicions were raised by, for example, Tea Partyers, etc, about the deviousness of the current gang in DC. I know how easy it is for people to latch onto rumors, no matter how flimsy, and then run with them. Then I started encountering things like the report on one of his publicly circulated biographies, which predates the IRS scandal, etc, by a year or so.
The absurd has increasingly become the plausible, and the origins of it finally have come into the light (btw, the literary agent’s bio for her client was undoubtedly fully vetted by Obama and yet still approved by him).
Mark (cd1aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:53 pmThe next time we all agree on something will be the first time. That’s why I keep coming back.
Dustin (303dca) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:55 pmEXPERTS?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Gus (694db4) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:12 pmWho in hell needs a CDRW in order to copy files? Have you never heard of USB thumb drives? Anybody can get one on a keychain that can be disguised as just about anything. And it is not limited to 650 megs of data either. But can hold 4, 8, 16, even 32 gigs of data.
http://dx.com/p/usb-2-0-mini-diamond-style-usb-flash-jump-drive-red-16gb-57570
http://dx.com/p/fashion-usb-2-0-rose-pattern-flash-drive-memory-disk-silver-pink-green-1g-58114
http://dx.com/p/red-m-m-spokescandy-style-usb-2-0-flash-drive-4gb-136147
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:21 pmfound this on Zero Hedge…
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-11/27-edward-snowden-quotes-about-us-government-spying-should-send-chill-your-spine
(and why doesn’t the link button w*rk for me any more? is it a browser thing?
redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:26 pmit may be a FF thing it sure don’t work for me no more
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:27 pmThe problem with this line of reasoning is it’s based on a straw man. Snowden did not claim to be able to get into every email account anywhere, but rather into personal accounts, i.e., Gmail, Yahoo, and the like.
He just used the President by way of illustration: anyone who sets up one of these accounts can have (or even has) all their email addressees, email content, and attachments stored by the government. That’s his point.
And that’s chilling.
Former Conservative (996cfd) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:54 pmWhat I think of Edward Snowden, I place him and his deeds in the context of the following, of which I’m among that 56%.
I’ve sometimes wondered what it would be like if I were a citizen of a country along the lines of Mexico. A country that I’d have little to no confidence or faith in, have almost no respect for, and certainly have no great pride in. Utter disdain for a land full of rampant corruption, crime, backwardness, and a never-ending sequence of politicians devoid of common sense, put into office by a populace with even less common sense (think of the patterns in a typical urban American setting writ large).
Ugh.
I cringe at the thought of the US becoming more and more like an amalgam of a Mexico, France and Venezuela.
Mark (cd1aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:56 pmthere seems little question the nsa piggy boys can rifle through your and my email like the truffle-hunting piggy boys they are
who gives a crap about food stamp’s email anyway
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:58 pmI had the same thing happen earlier. It’s a Firefox thing.
Former Conservative (1b569c) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:58 pmIt’s because sociopaths disproportionately rise to the top of power structures (in every party).
Former Conservative (1b569c) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:01 pmThe link code doesn’t work for me either, and it hasn’t for weeks.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:03 pmWhen I was with the State government 30 years ago with all computerized information available to me. And that was a lot, including all tax returns etc, we had key stroke monitoring. But it did not make the information unavailable. Get it?
Jack (83ebf3) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:51 pmThink Lois Lerner.
Well it has to, if only for demographic reasons.
Former Conservative (31844d) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:02 pmLiberty & Truth require constant vigilance.
The American public failed that test last November.
Blacque Jacques Shellacque (bed55d) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:51 pmhttps://patterico.com/2013/06/11/experts-say-snowdens-claims-are-absurd/comment-page-6/#comment-1232879
certainly, they triumphed by the margin of fraud.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:25 am“How is it that someone can look at what his ex-wife’s intel, unless they are capturing info on American citizens.”
Justice is GIVING some info in citizens to NSA but it has to come with approval from Justice, NSA can’t collect it on their own.
For example, the FBI requested a FISA warrant to have Verizon turn over all their phone records to NSA. Now, someone COULD look up a rival’s records to see who they are talking to, or a girlfriend or an ex girlfriend. That doesn’t mean “NSA” is targeting citizens. That means there is an individual employed by NSA who just targeted a citizen.
A government employee at almost any level in any agency can abuse the system. But in this case we do not appear to have a case where NSA is intentionally targeting citizens.
Heck, an employee of Verizon could do the same thing. Anyone with access to look up someone’s phone bill could do the same thing.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:50 amfor those of you who have apparently forgotten it:
redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:10 amBut a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.
John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775
The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. — Patrick Henry
peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 6/12/2013 @ 2:24 amI don’t imagine that the Founding Fathers would be very thrilled over this secret court bullshite either. I quite suspect they would have rope and trees ready for anyone that tried to institute such a thing were they still alive.
peedoffamerican (a84075) — 6/12/2013 @ 2:28 amAs a lawyer I am sure you know what a snow-job is. In lieu of dazzling with your brilliance you baffle with your B…S…. You’ve been successfully misdirected. Metadata analysis is killer powerful, not against specific people but against key people.
This is why metadata can be so useful, and so dangerous. It is an example using metadata to discern relationships between notables in the US revolution.
At the bottom Kieran Healy provides a link to a more scholarly paper that makes some trenchant observations about removing Revere and Warren from the picture and what it might have done to the American Revolution.
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/
Now, what happens when the grouping criteria are selected to pick out Tea Party people or Libertarians or even Progressives? The nation needs a discussion of this issue. Note that Google already has sufficient data that it could mine for these sorts of relationships. At the moment I am not sure law prohibits their performing political targeting. Should it?
Surely if the government does it there should be penalties for those involved due to the clear conflict of interest. But, Google people could mine their metadata and pick out key people to “neutralize” (discredit and ridicule) and change the political future of the nation to fit either their own politics or some corporate goal.
{^_^}
JDow (1a2024) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:59 amSurely if the government does it there should be penalties for those involved due to the clear conflict of interest. But, Google people could mine their metadata and pick out key people to “neutralize” (discredit and ridicule) and change the political future of the nation to fit either their own politics or some corporate goal.
Comment by JDow (1a2024) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:59 am
Yes, that is what I’ve tried to say, that if the data is out there and not “shredded”, who knows what somebody will do?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:14 amMaybe it’s a business opportunity for companies such as phone and search engines that guarantee no data compiling other than what one stores for themselves on their own computer.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:16 amMD,
vor2 (24d7d9) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:53 amSee article for one company already offering it – they have been in business for a couple of years.
http://www.darkreading.com/privacy/following-nsa-prism-silent-circle-announ/240156459
DNI James Clapper personally contacts Snowden and tells him, “Come in out of the cold, Edward, I personally guarantee that you will not be prosecuted and I will prove to you that your fears about the information we collect are unfounded”. Snowden comes back to Washington and Clapper himself takes him on a tour of the NSA’s data storage facility, a gigantic, cavernous underground place. They walk what seems like miles through dimly lit row after row and stack after stack of file cabinets, with Clapper not saying a word. Snowden is becoming more and more disquiet from the spookiness of the place and finally blurts, “Mr. Director, I’m scared”. And Clapper says, “You’re scared? I’m the one who has to walk back alone”.
nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:55 amPriceless.
We have allies on the left:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/10/The-Fuse-Has-Been-Lit-Seven-Critical-Points-on-Uncle-Sam-s-Spying-Program
Like Obama, the government is both incompetent and evil. Those who trust, goofs.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:03 amPriceless.
We have allies on the left:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/10/The-Fuse-Has-Been-Lit-Seven-Critical-Points-on-Uncle-Sam-s-Spying-Program
Like Obama, the government is both incompetent and evil. Those who trust, goofs.
145. Nice fetch.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:08 amGood Breitbart link, gary. “Beware of geeks bearing gifts”, in reference to Google. Heh!
nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:12 am143. Most of us access sites on the Web and Internets via the DNS, using a name.
These are but a tiny portion of access points to the internet. Many of the ‘unpublished’ addresses are protected by firewalls but even these can be circumvented.
Your computer is similar. A legacy of the old days are memory-mapped addresses on the bus. You can freely write and read from addresses and that is where your devices sit.
One does not need an FISA order to read and write to unpublished addresses on the internet. One only needs ‘know how’. “Master hacker” is crap, IT pros have the know how, if they choose to use it.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:18 amYeah, there’s this too.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/obama-administration-is-collecting-billions-of-us-communications-every-week-but-cant-find-6-million-illegal-immigrants/
More ‘proof’ the government can’t do what Snowden says they can.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:25 amThe Obama campaign credited much of it’s success in 2008 with obtaining valid email addresses, and it pointed to its ability to find links between various addresses (so they could target people with specific appeals) for it’s success in 2012. That’s metadata.
It frightens me for any Administration — let alone an Administration that used the IRS for political ends — to have access to this information. Put it in the right hands and (as JDow says), it can change the future.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:27 amI know the difference between its and it’s but Apple doesn’t.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:28 amWe’re all traitors now Mr. Boehner:
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/06/11/Boehner-NSA-leaker-Snowden-Is-a-Traitor
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:30 am153. I use Yahoo on ‘principle’ but the leak reveals they beat Google to complicity with the Stasi by a couple of years.
What a dupe.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:33 amBoehner, it’s called courage of one’s convictions. No doubt you’re unfamiliar with it.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:40 amGoogle remembered my birthday. For real. If I go to Google signed in, I get a graphic with cakes, candles and sparklers. If I sign out, it’s the plain old Google.
I don’t know how to feel about it. It is nice of Mr. Schmidt, though.
nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:58 amCertainly you are referring to Nixon and the Republicans, correct DRJ?
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:06 amI know you’re trying to be clever, Gramps2, but my comment and this response are serious. Both Nixon and Obama (Nixon on steroids) scare me.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:21 amOf course he is Gramps2, because something from 35 years ago is really, really germane to the thug in the White House today. You left radical partisans just can’t accept responsibility for anything can you?
BTW, you lied to me about Obamacare. My insurance premiums have gone up by $460 a month in the last year and a half. You said the premiums would go down. Liar! Seems all you leftist radicals do is lie.
Hoagie (3259ab) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:24 amCould well be, Former Conservative; I use the Google browser and have had no problem with implementing the “link” command.
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:26 amI understand the comparison to Nixon is distressing for Obama believers like yourself, Gramps2, but Joe Klein feels your pain.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:27 amCouldn’t be your insurance company is at fault, could it Hoagie? Since the Obamacare exchanges have not yet kicked in, as will happen in 2014, you have no one to blame but your own insurance company.
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:33 amYes, he uses the hood to keep from being monitored by cameras. However, there is no reason to need a camera in the room to monitor his password entry. He’s claiming to be a big deal security guy (with a GED).
tek (2063de) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:38 amDRJ, perhaps you would provide the evidence that connects the behavior of the Cincinnati contingent of the IRS to the President. Not even Joe Klein makes such a connection. In the case of Nixon and his co conspirators, there is no doubt.
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:39 amMore ‘proof’ the government can’t do what Snowden says they can.
[rim shot]
That’s why politics are at the core of all these various controversies and concerns, and how the allegations of Snowden, or the information that is being grabbed by the NSA or IRS, etc, ultimately depends on the ideology of the people in charge of things or in the pecking order.
A society (and government) soaked with liberalism is like an honor system at the workplace, or like a family with very permissive parents. As long as most employees don’t take advantage of (don’t exploit) their employer’s offer of free lunches, free snacks, free office supplies, and self-scheduled coffee breaks, the honor system will work.
As long as kids in a family are self-disciplined, innately reliable and naturally talented, the permissiveness of the parents will work. But if too many people in a workplace or children in a family are prone to typical human nature, watch out! Trouble brewing, trouble up ahead.
Mark (cd1aee) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:46 amDRJ, perhaps you would provide the evidence that connects the behavior of the Cincinnati contingent of the IRS
Perry – when you lead with an objective LIE, there is not much point in trying to have a discussion. Plus, you apparently cannot read the site rules. Let me help …
Commenters who do not use a consistent name, and/or who use a proxy to post, are subject to banning.
JD (129489) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:01 amChanging your name and IP addy to get around your prior moderation shows your knowing intent to ignore the clear rules. And shows you are a desperate lying hyper-partisan hack. But we already knew that.
JD (129489) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:07 amI know how disappointed you must be, Gramp2, but denial will only make it worse.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:15 amJD, you have no evidence for you allegation. Instead, why not just join in the discussions?
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:17 amoops – your
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:17 amLooks like you have no evidence, right DRJ? Also, I did not deny your point, I merely asked for the evidence.
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:20 amSure sounds like Perry. We could ask Dana, since he is most familiar with the gentleman’s antics.
Simon Jester (bd6bba) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:23 amThere is plenty of “evidence”. You seem to think that we cannot identify your little quirks, tells, and idiosyncrasies. It is really quite easy to do. Especially with you.
JD (b63a52) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:39 amDRJ, perhaps you would provide the evidence that connects the behavior of the Cincinnati contingent of the IRS
DRJ need not provide any evidence to refute your question, because your question is based on a lie.
JD (b63a52) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:40 amDuring Bush administration every that happened was Bush’s fault. During Obama’s, nothing is Obama’s.
SPQR (768505) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:43 amInstead, why not just join in the discussions?
Because it is pointless to discuss topics with lying cowardly hyper-partisan hacks, like yourself, Perry.
JD (b63a52) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:44 amDuring Bush administration every that happened was Bush’s fault. During Obama’s, nothing is Obama’s
The MFM is indispensable and vital in order to pull this off.
During Bush administration every that happened was Bush’s fault. During Obama’s, everything that happens is Bush’s fault
FTFY
JD (b63a52) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:45 amDana at First Street Journal has a new commenter, Rebus, with an IP address in Philadelphia who showed up within a day of Gramps2’s arrival here. I suspect it’s Perry up to his usual deceptions. It wouldn’t surprise me if a comparison of the IPs match.
ropelight (e45149) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:54 amDRJ at #156: spot-on.
Leviticus (b98400) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:11 am“Perry’s” continued harassment of commenters on this site under a variety of names, “Perry’s” unquestioning support of the current president no matter what he does, and “Perry’s” lie filled partisan attempts at misdirection in any topic thread here that is critical of the administration’s policies only help prove the following:
We the people (at least 58% of us according to polls) are quite right to be worried about our personal data in the hands of, or within the access of, partisans to whom the Constitution means nothing. It’s amusing to me that Perry is actually reinforcing rather than contradicting that concern–and he doesn’t even realize it.
elissa (e42687) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:34 amWe the people (at least 58% of us according to polls)
Polls? Why didn’t we just ask the NSA?
nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:42 amElissa – Perry, and Teh One, also demonstrate how aggressively hypocritical and overtly political the left in general, and the Dems in particular were in their frenzied and unhinged criticisms of war and security policy previously.
JD (129489) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:43 amGetting back to the point of all this, I was not surprised to hear all the Mental Twister regarding this kind of spying during Democrat and Republican administrations. Steny Hoyer was amazingly dishonest on this point of this. And no one called him on it in the MSM>
“It’s not wrong when we do it” is the credo.
Problem is, they cannot be assured that “their folks” will always be the wielders of such power (listen to the ghost of Robespierre on this topic). I suspect that such folks would have no trouble returning to their prior point of view following such a chance.
But me, I worry about the precedent set. And the power wielded, and consolidated. So should even the most addle-pated partisan.
It all comes down to that Freedom X Security = a constant equation.
Add in Low Information Voters™, and the Left is all set.
We ALL need to address this issue of security. It’s not partisan, no matter how Al Franken twists and turns to make it so.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:52 amMajority overrides the Fourth Amendment? Cool.
SPQR (768505) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:59 amWhat majority are you talking about@189 SPQR? The polls over the last couple of days do not appear to be siding with the secret domestic surveillance snoopers by a rather large majority. Yesterday’s CBS news website headline screamed:
Most disapprove of gov’t phone snooping of ordinary Americans.
Average Americans may not view it specifically through the lens of the 4th amendment, and they may not fully understand the technology involved, (I sure don’t) but I think most people do see the program concept as dangerous, at least vaguely un-American, and something to be addressed. Do you see it shaking out differently?
elissa (e42687) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:30 amHappy Birthday, NK.
Elissa is right about this Perry/Gramps2 creep. Such blind and angry partisanship exists in the bureaucracy. I read that 100% of Dept of Education lawyers are democrats. That’s the result of an intolerant culture, and it appears to be a widespread issue. IRS’s lawyers appear to be 95% democrat. You don’t get there on accident. This ideological purity comes with a dehumanization of those who disagree, which is something we call can detect in Perry’s responses to good arguments… invariably some kind of dishonest and angry sophistry.
I know there are Republicans with too much loyalty, too, who get ugly at the drop of a hat, but I don’t think they are quite the same problem in government corruption, as government is naturally going to lean left and the media will call them out.
It seems like the Obama administration is the perfect storm of media oversight failure, deification of the leader, and foaming at the mouth rage at Republicans (thanks largely to the way Bush was discussed by the media). Bush gets a ding too for not cleaning house.
I hope that if the Democrats ever lose the White House in the near future, the next president fires a large majority of the bureacracy and installs a less intolerant bunch. That’s the part of administration that republicans often shirk.
Dustin (303dca) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:31 amDustin, I think that the problem, regardless of belief system, is “groupthink.” Right now, Republicans have an advantage: popular culture reviles and ridicules them. So this forces the Right to understand being “on the outside” and the need to justify positions.
People on the “inside” don’t need to think at all.
What frightens me about this administration is how in lockstep it is with popular culture. So the folks “on that side” don’t think very deeply about how other people think, or even about their own positions on issues.
They are just One with the Cool Kids.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:40 amWhich is why I want to see an adversarial press.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:40 am“But me, I worry about the precedent set. And the power wielded, and consolidated. So should even the most addle-pated partisan.”
– Simon Jester
I’m in the middle of editing an article with an argument heavily rooted in the writings of John Rawls.
You have made this point about bad precedents frequently; and though I’ve never realized it before, it seems like Rawls would agree with your point wholeheartedly.
Are you familiar with Rawls? My own familiarity with his work is cursory at best, but the similarity of sentiment struck me for some reason.
Leviticus (1aca67) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:40 amMr. Edward has spurred at least a handful of congresspiggies to at least contemplate taking their oversight duties seriously
thank you Edward
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:43 amNext move, Snowden’s. Imagine the reaction if he can supply recordings of such people he has made.
Warren Jones (32f706) — 6/12/2013 @ 10:43 amNext move the State Department’s to revoke his passport if they have not already done it.
The truly realistic nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 11:27 amAnd put him on Interpol’s red whatever.
nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 11:28 amCross-posted because I am feeling both enraged and full of myself:
Why do some people think “classified” is a major moral principle on par with, I dunno, the constitution? Or truth itself? Or privacy, or freedom, or resisting tyranny?
Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:51 am
— And this is my point with regard to Snowden: When the ‘classified information’ being released amounts to a statement by the federal government that says “F*ck the Fourth Amendment, we do what we want!” then I’m inclined to really not care about the fact that the word “Classified” was rubber-stamped onto said document.
See, I want to be informed when the Executive Branch — with, as the administration has been so eager to point out, the tacit acceptance (if not outright complicity) of the Legislative & Judicial branches — blithely disregards The Supreme Law of the Land.
What did the president say the other day? “You can’t have 100% security and also have 100% privacy.” This was right after he said, “Nobody is listening to your telephone calls.” Two sentences, three strawmen.
WHO is calling for ‘100% security’? And WHO expects the government to be capable of providing it? Did he not read the oath that he’s taken twice? (four times, if you count the number of times that the ceremony has actually been performed)
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
‘Constitutional scholar’ — I guess that means he studies ways of subverting and doing end-runs around it.
‘Constitutional Law Professor’ — What a joke. You cannot teach that which you do not know, nor believe in.
Now, is protecting the safety of the American people one of the president’s duties? Absolutely. But he didn’t swear an oath to keep the American people 100% secure; he swore an oath to do his BEST to keep the American people’s Constitution 100% secure.
And now, when the Executive Branch of government has seemingly been caught red-handed violating the Fourth Amendment to that Constitution, his response is ‘you folks are just gonna have to sacrifice some privacy in exchange for security’.
Sacrifice liberty in exchange for protection.
Give us some of each and every paycheck and we promise to give you a pension — if you live long enough.
Give us some more of your paycheck and we promise to cover your senior medical bills — ditto the above stipulation.
Give us your implied consent and we promise to force private companies to cover your medical bills before you’re old enough for the government to cover them — it will only cost you a little bit out of each paycheck.
Look the other way when we reach into the diaper of your 2-year-old, or your 92-year-old; you never know who might have a pipe-bomb wedged up their ass — that’s a part of your paycheck that’s being put to good use!
And please, PLEASE, allow the people whose paychecks are paid with the money we take from your paychecks to interpret the phrase “unreasonable searches and seizures” as liberally as is humanly possible. Because, really, can any action that is taken in the pursuance of affording you close to 100% security truly be labeled ‘unreasonable’?
—————
WHO is calling for 100% privacy? We know that we’re not all hermits, and that in order to coexist peacefully we must live under Rule of Law, and that SOMETIMES it is necessary for those that are protecting us under those laws to observe people that may or may not have violated one or more of those laws. NOBODY is demanding 100% privacy (strawman) but neither is any reasonable person that is living in “the land of the free” willing to play the zero-sum game of ‘if we look at everybody, then we’ll catch everyone that is doing something wrong’.
—————
WHO, of any substantive reputation — and who wasn’t just unintentionally or subconsciously substituting the word ‘listening’ for ‘tracking’ in the midst of a radio show rant — has accused the government of actually listening to millions of phone calls? That’s right — nobody. This didn’t stop the president from trotting out that strawman though, did it.
“Mr. President, the American people want to know why the NSA, with your blessing, is tracking virtually every phone call that’s made in this country.”
“Well, first of all, I want to assure the American people that nobody is listening to your phone calls.”
“Mr. President, nobody is asking if you’re actually listening to the calls; they want to know why you are tracking all of them.”
“Yeah but, let me be clear, as I have always said, we are not listening to anyone’s calls.”
“Mr. President, could you now spout some meaningless, absolutist talking point; by which, you say something that on the surface seems commonsensical but underneath is really just an excuse for tyrannical behavior?”
“You can’t have 100% security and also have 100% privacy.”
“Thank you, Mr. President.”
“You, uh, can’t make the trains run on-time unless you break a few eggs.”
“That’s okay Mr. President, we have enough for our stories; you don’t need to go off-prompter.”
“Whew! Thanks, guys.”
—————
The overriding story of this scandal has NOTHING to do with Edward Snowden.
Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 11:36 amIt is a good post, Icy.
elissa (e42687) — 6/12/2013 @ 11:43 amI don’t know if Edward Snowden’s a traitor or not.
Blair (a318b8) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:26 pmJohn Boehner, the Speaker of the House, and John Bolton, Bush’s former UN Ambassador, seem to think he is without any evidence. I’m not playing that game. I’d like to see the evidence before I can say
he’s a traitor. Go ahead, jump to conclusions
if you want. I won’t.Here is the latest on Edward Snowden, as given in an exclusive interview to the South China Morning Post:
It seems to me that his behavior is based on libertarian principles.
So I ask once more: Is Edward Snowden a hero or a traitor?
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:33 pmThe full article in the South China Morning Post is here.
Gramps2 (f598c1) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:38 pmWell said. Those who are libertarian, classical liberals, or conservatives have all independently thought their way there. They had to reject arguments and propaganda from public school, TV, college, and government.
and as you note, people who accept the groupthink didn’t have to think their way there at all.
I would hesitate to define these free thinkers as republicans. I feel that the GOP is a big, big part of the problem.
Dustin (303dca) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:45 pmPerry – why do you insist on the charade?
JD (129489) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:53 pmJD, he’s a troll because he has nothing better to do. We’ll see more and more of that as Obama’s vision of dependency becomes reality.
Dustin (303dca) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:57 pmGramps2 #169:
First, there are conflicting claims regarding when and how the targeting of conservative groups originated, but the IRS in Washington ultimately took control of the applications.
Second, no matter how it started, Washington IRS officials have been aware since 2010 that conservative groups were being targeted but they did nothing to stop it. Together, this shows the Washington IRS participated in, acquiesced and supported the targeting of conservative groups.
Third, I don’t know when Obama knew about this but his legal counsel, Chief of Staff and others aides have known for weeks. I think they told Obama and he lied when he said he didn’t know about this until it came out in the media. (You know Obama lies, right?) Furthermore, I believe this has been going on with Obama;s and his staff’s knowledge since early in his first term. But even if no one knew, Bush was held responsible and took responsibility for his federal agency failures after Katrina, and Obama is responsible the failures of his IRS.
Your turn, Gramps2. You like to play the hypocrite card. Are you the real hypocrite here?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:02 pmStasi collaborator slips the noose:
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/12/breaking-deputy-cia-director-mike-morell-resigns/
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:05 pmI hope Mark is covering his tracks, Dog’s detractors are getting personal interviews from the SS.
Can’t wait for the turf wars, like the Gestapo vs. SS prompting the future Fuhrer to round up a 100-odd and execute them.
Liberals that don’t tow the line are in for ‘Surprise!’
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:10 pmGramps2,
I responded to your question at 169 but my comment is caught in the filter, probably because it has several links. Someone will probably release it by this evening or tomorrow. If you have time, scroll back up to around 200 and look for it.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:10 pmMr. Boehner says ‘Snowden is a Traitor. He has no evidence’.
So we’re a traitor now for smearing the government?
Glad Snowden is just a self-promoting azzhat and we’re all safe and sound.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:15 pmAn even better article is here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/hong-kong-a-strange-place-to-seek-freedom.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The fact of the matter is Snowden has said some pretty silly *** things on several fronts and that doesn’t help his credibility any. Hero or traitor? Really? Those are the only two possible choices?
Perry2.0 you remind me of your messiah who constantly erects those kinds of strawmen. But for once in a generous display of bipartisanship I’m going to follow his example and reject that false choice. I’m going to opt for fugitive. Which is what Snowden is a the moment.
Like the French Revolution or Western Civilization, it’s too early to tell how Snowden’s history is going to play out. But I’m telling you, all of the commenters who are eager to crown this guy a hero early on are going to have egg on your faces if he takes up Putin’s offer of asylum.
I recommend as an assignment that everyone watch “The Court Martial of Billy Mitchell” tonight to see how a whistleblower should act.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047956/
I don’t know if I’d have the guts to do it, but I like to think if I became aware of a massive violation of the Constitution while I was in and I had exhausted every other avenue available, I’d go public and were I still in demand a court martial. As they say, discovery’s a b****.
The odds of me having the inside information on a massive government conspiracy have gone way down since I retired, most especially since I went into the hospitality industry.
I just want whoever at NSA that’s monitoring this thread to know I have no access to inside information any more. None whatsoever.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:18 pmHow secret was PRISM and related programs? I’ve seen photos of the Utah Data Center that will supposedly be its home, and it appears a low-level employee like Snowden knew or found out about it. It doesn’t sound like it was that big a secret. Even if it was, it wasn’t going to stay secret for long since America wasn’t the only one doing it. Canada has had its own metadata surveillance program since 2011.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:20 pmFeinstein wants to have the NSA declassify enough info so that she can sell PRISM to the sheeple.
I dunno Diane, the Tsarnaev’s sorta blew that gambit.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:21 pmThe NSA has 60,000 employees, not certain whether that includes contractors off premises.
Are you getting your dollar’s worth?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:27 pmthat is too many employees
too many parasites will destroy the host
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:28 pmSnowden claims the US has been hacking China since 2009.
SEAL teams, drones and hackers. Obama seems addicted to covert stuff.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:29 pmInteresting article from the Telegraph, also referenced on Drudge.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100221535/is-edward-snowdens-story-unravelling-why-the-guardians-scoop-is-looking-a-bit-dodgy/
Sorry, doing this from work and it looks like the link the link thingie is blocked.
Bill M (e0a4e5) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:19 pmOr maybe not.
Bill M (e0a4e5) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:20 pmWith all of the potential clock and dagger information and head fakes and disinformation I wonder who knows for sure what the story is…
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:40 pmWhen you’re fundamentally transforming the country, DRJ, that’s the kind of thing that needs doing under cover of darkness.
I noticed this gem over at HotAir.
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/12/amash-to-clapper-perjury-is-a-serious-crime/
Is anybody besides me fed up with this administration and their SOOPER SEKRIT personal definitions for old words and terms?
There are no honest differences on semantics. “Collection” for the purpose of intelligence oversight is defined by US law.
Hello! This isn’t hard. Clapper’s lying. And this BS about what he means by “collection” doesn’t mean squat.
Now back to your regularly scheduled comment thread on whether we can, right now, no time for thinking, determine if Snowden is a hero or traitor. Operators are standing by.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:18 pmWhen you’re fundamentally transforming the country there’s a lot you have to lie to Congress about. Because ultimately you’re lying to the American people.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:19 pm219.With all of the potential clock and dagger information and head fakes and disinformation I wonder who knows for sure what the story is…
I know there’s a song along that theme, MD, but until I find it here are some Churchill quotes:
•There are a lot of lies going around… and half of them are true.
•A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.
•Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may destroy it, but there it is.
•The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:44 pmWell, there is a song about whether anyone really knows what time it is…
and there is a song about just dropping in to see what condition his condition is in,
which really doesn’t apply but i thought it was a clever line, as long as it isn’t really true
and there was a song about “how can I be sure, in a world that’s constantly changing, where I stand with you”…
that one sort of fits
let’s keep thinking about it
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:59 pm•The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:44 pm
Often proven by late night comedians showing clips of interviews on the street.
I heard it said that in the past one could sort of guess that people who didn’t know much who voted anyway would kind of break 50/50, and an election is decided by those who know enough to have a specific opinion,
but
in the age of Obama (and somewhat ever since JFK), an election can increasingly be decided by those who really don’t know much but are swayed by the better pr firm.
It is a problem.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:07 pmI’m guessing you’ve woken up more than once with a hangover besides a dumpster in an alley behind a bar missing your wallet, your pants, your shoes, wondering why he never calls.
Seriously? You’re buying that crap about how Snowden broke both legs trying out for Special Forces? Really?
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:20 pmThis sort of claim, is not new among self proclaimed crusaders for truth, Daniel Sheehan, of the Christic Institute, the 9/11 denialists of the day, portrayed himself as having been in basic, to get some street cred, for his anti military screeds.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:29 pmMr. Snowden has never lied to me
unlike other people like for example NSA piggy boys
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:35 pmThis is not helpful to his cause;
http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2013/06/12/nsa-leak-already-prompting-countermeasures-by-terrorists/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/12/2013 @ 5:43 pmMight not be so bad narciso, for reasons I am not going to go into here. But it might not be so bad.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 6/12/2013 @ 6:49 pmRep Peter King is talking about putting Glenn Greenwald in jail for publishing state secrets.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/peter-king-reporters-prosecuted_n_3424541.html
Personally, I think Greenwald should be put in jail for using sock puppets to prop up ridiculous bullshit that he says. But that’s beside the point.
What are the chances of Greenwald being jailed, or at least inconvenienced in a physical way?
His pucker hole could use the break.
I’m surprised Patterico hasn’t floated a post on this.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:00 pmI hope you two will be very happy together.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/12/2013 @ 9:55 pmAnd these ‘countermeasures’ involve what, abandoning phones and returning to the use of carrier pigeons?
Icy (a7f398) — 6/13/2013 @ 7:58 amI haven’t seen this up here, but there’s a post exposing Snowden over at HotAir in two ways.
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/12/snowden-tells-chinese-paper-yes-the-u-s-is-hacking-chinese-and-hong-kong-computers/
First, he is most definitely betraying the US to the Chinese.
The little jerkoff is still using the language of speaking truth to power as he sells out his country to the CHICOMs. And he puts on the same act when he openly considers defecting to Russia.
Are you friggin’ kidding me? I wonder who ever convinced this guy he was so smart no one could see through his BS. Probably the weenies at CIA and NSA who failing to see through his BS let him near classified information in the first place. But everyone else can. That’s one of the problems I had with NSA. You basically had to be a shut in during high school and college, just staying in your parents basement and knitting or something, to pass the lifestyle polygraph. That’s the kind of people who probably thought Snowden was smooth.
Oh, and Mr. Feets, Snowden has lied to you. He said this in his Guardian interview:
The post at HotAir links to Blackfive. Apparently Uncle Jimbo realized Snowden’s story about special forces reeked to high heaven and so he contacted the Special Warfare Center & School. He received this reply:
So Snowden’s high principles, purity of purpose, or even injuries didn’t prevent him from joining Special Forces. They would never have taken him; he was ineligible for the program he told the press he had begun.
Uncle Jimbo goes off on the “wannabe poseur” at length. I think we’ve all had experience with his type. Some guy short on accomplishments and achievements who nonetheless is convinced he’s the sharpest tool in the shed and everyone else is just too stupid to appreciate him. He reminds me of one guy in particular from my first ship. He went to college but just barely graduated with a low GPA and thus, shades of Snowden, was ineligible for OCS. But to hear him talk you’d think he had made the decision to go enlisted because he decided officers were just too stuck up. Anyway he kept writing his Congressman about how he was being treated when we sent him down to work on the mess decks for six months. Not a punishment; every squadron and department had to send people rotating through. But he thought we were picking on him.
The Congressman was no idiot. He had to respond to his complaints and inquire, but he also told the command he suspected the guy was just a malingerer.
We had 72 hours to respond to the Congessman, so we start investigating. One thing led to another and we come to find he was stashing classified in his foot locker. Stupid stuff, he didn’t have access to anything higher than confidential, but apparently he thought in the way of payback he could amass enough to blow the lid off the grand conspiracy against him. Anyway it was enough to nail him at the court martial.
Snowden is of a type, as he increasingly reveals. Uncle Jimbo has seen them, I’ve seen them, Congressman whatsits has seen them; everybody has seen them. I really don’t know how deluded Snowden is, but he’s no hero. The gulf between his noble posturing and his traitorous actions grows with every passing day.
I don’t care who you are and what you think about his exposure of PRISM to the US public, but bringing documents about US cyber warfare against China to China while fleeing justice demonstrates he planned to betray the country. The verdict is in; no hero but a traitor.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/13/2013 @ 11:30 am241. Mr. 57, you may well be made of sterner stuff, but a lot of your fellow commenters are happy to fawn all over a possible savior.
Bunny Bane Carter was every inch the traitor this sucker is, every bit as full of BS about his career.
Our government is full to the gills with traitors, foremost among them the antiChrist hisself.
The question, traitor or hero, is not answered to my satisfaction.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:12 pmmy feeling is he’s a neat kid, and also brave
I wish him the best and hope someday he can come home to america and not have to look over his shoulder all the time
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:25 pmDo you maybe have room for him and his girlfriend’s acrobatic dancing pole in your apartment, feets? It could be interesting and I bet you’d have lots of good stories to tell people on blogs and stuff.
elissa (d6d80a) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:34 pmI might could move a few things around and for sure i could free up some closet space
i could probably take some stuff up to the office as well
and they probably don’t have a lot of stuff really
give me this weekend to see what I can do
I wonder if she cooks
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:37 pmgary @242, anyone who would bring evidence of US military and intelligence cyber activities targeting China with him when he fled to China is a traitor. It isn’t debatable at that point. That shows premeditation.
His claim that he went to Hong Kong because of it’s strong commitment to free speech is ridiculous. It’s part of a pattern of absurd claims he’s made, even the Hong Kong Chinese can’t buy that one.
Whether he’s the worst traitor we’ll find out about is another question, but there is not question he is one.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:16 pmSNOWDEN is a FREAK. There is FAR more to the story than we have learned yet.
On the other hand. SNOWDEN isn’t the story. Our government SPYING on US is the story. I’m so sick and tired of that DUMB STUPID TEXAS COWBOY GEORGE W OBAMA spying on us.
Obama is a pile of shit.
Gus (694db4) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:24 pmEXPERTS SAY: What a load of fucking bullshit.
Gus (694db4) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:26 pmHappyfeet?? You think this SNOWDEN dude is a nice guy??? Wow.
Gus (694db4) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:26 pmHe’s a kook. Not happyfeet, Snowden.
Snowden is really not the issue. His revelations are.
nk (875f57) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:33 pmYeah, just like Silva in Skyfall, he was just misunderstood,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:34 pmYou somehow can’t discern the difference between a hack and a hero;
http://www.hqmc.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/3488/Article/144403/marines-decorated-for-heroic-actions-in-afghanistan.aspx
narciso (3fec35) — 6/13/2013 @ 9:48 pmThat’s exactly the problem; his revelations are ongong. As long as he continues to leak he’s making himself an issue.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/13/2013 @ 10:27 pmHow long before he burns a US asset, he has to sing for his supper, to Greenwald, or the Guang bu
narciso (3fec35) — 6/13/2013 @ 10:29 pmSteve, I agree with you on the big picture about Snowden, but I’m not satisfied with this “poseur wannabee” attack. Snowden never claimed he attended SWCS, and the freaking out that he didn’t proves only the low credibility of those attacking him.
He did break his legs while serving in the US Military, and I’m not going to denigrate his military service just because I find his more recent actions to be quite terrible. There are plenty of men whose military service I respect but did not carry out the best values in later life (Audie Murphy is an example).
Not trying to pick a fight with you, but I think you’re trying too hard to prove a point that doesn’t need to be made anyway. It’s abundantly clear that he’s sharing classified information with China about our espionage in China. That’s enough for us to agree this person is no hero.
Dustin (0eda8c) — 6/13/2013 @ 10:34 pmThat story about breaking his legs raises a couple of other points that make his self-representations even more hinky. The reason I think we must look at his past credibility is that his credibility is all we have to go on when looking at his current claims about his motivations and intentions.
I haven’t seen anything that documents what type of discharge the Army gave Snowden, or even confirming the injuries Snowden is telling the press he received.
The press is reporting he was medically discharged. But you don’t just get a medical discharge for an injury sustained in basic training. It’s standard to treat the injury and return the student to training if medical determines the student can continue. You certainly don’t get kicked out just as soon as you’re injured; the military has to treat you for a service related injury. He couldn’t have even asked for a medical discharge. That process, which is standardized across the services, has to be initiated by a doctor. If he had broken his legs there would have been a Line of Duty investigation and then a couple of medical evaluation boards to determine if he was fit for continued service whether in his original job choice or in another MOS.
Even if they didn’t want to keep him they still would have evaluated him physically because they have to determine if he’s eligible for continued medical benefits through the VA.
The issue is getting a medical discharge is a lengthy process. He couldn’t have possibly completed a portion of his training, broke both his legs, healed, been evaluated, and given a medical discharge between May and September of 2004. The NYT in 2012 reported the process on average took 395 days for active duty members and 420 or reservists. And that was after the services attempted to streamline the process in 2008. They were trying to reduce the time it took, and their goal was to reduce it to 295 days.
Snowden was on active duty for only about 144 days.
He had to have received an Early Level Separation. He wasn’t on active duty long enough for the command to be required to give him a discharge that could characterize his service. ELS is precisely for separating service members with less than six months in. Since ELS is an administrative discharge initiated by the command, that happens much more quickly then a medical discharge. But it isn’t up to the recruit. The training command initiates that process and has to determine an ELS is warranted for the good of the service.
This can be because of the recruit’s physical condition. But that’s when the recruit isn’t physically up to the task, not when the recruit has been injured. In fact fairly certain a command doesn’t have the sole discretion to ELS someone who’s been injured seriously enough to require treatment, convalescence, and rehabilitation. At that point they’ve dragged medical into it and they would have put him on medical hold right away. Until he had been cleared by medical I don’t believe it would have been lawful to release him. We could never admin separate anyone on medical hold until medical certified that the injury or condition had been treated and if chronic they had stabilized it. And legs take a long time to heal.
There are very good reasons to doubt his stories. Including the story about the nature of his service and why and under what circumstances he was discharged. Every stage of his tale requires you to believe a near miraculous set of coincidences occurred.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/14/2013 @ 1:10 amI was just watching the top man from the FBI say that the NSA program is important because if it had been in place during 9/11/01 they would have caught the bad guys and prevented tragedy.
We have Obama’s super double plus secret Sensitive Operations Review Committee, where all muslim related matters are swept under the rug.
Who knows what they ignored.
We have Dianne Feinstein and Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) claiming two cases of terrorists arrested in an old fashion stakeout by British police (nothing to do with the NSA) as evidence that the NSA isn’t as useless as tits on a nun.
You’d think they could find an example closer to home. Maybe on the same hemisphere, and actually involving actions taken by the parties who are trying to take the credit. No such luck.
Then we have NSA Director Keith Alexander saying he doesn’t know how many times phone records obtained through section 215 of the Patriot Act were critical to the discovery and disruption of terrorist threats.
Then he has the nerve to say, “I want the American people to know that we’re being transparent in here.”
Sure you are Keith.
How many hundreds of people must work at the NSA, none of them looking for muslim terrorists, because those are rerouted to the White House’s special operation.
What are doing with their day?
Karaoke and line dancing? (that’s me being optimistic)
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/14/2013 @ 2:44 amWhat are they doing with their day. (ed – papertiger)
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/14/2013 @ 2:47 amNo, line dancing is the IRs’ specialty, i’d say it’s the electric slide,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/14/2013 @ 3:43 amDid anybody catch Glenn Beck’s earthshaking revelation? I had gone to high ground to be safe, so I missed it.
nk (875f57) — 6/14/2013 @ 5:18 am246. You seem not to have picked up on my point.
nk, at 248, is implied. Your government, not every individual, but absolutely en toto, is AWOL, rogue, gone over to the other side, lawless, aiding, abetting and providing comfort.
Righting this ship could very well be a bigger job than for which the Amerikkan people are capable.
As Mr. Leviticus is so fond of saying, ‘You prove my point’.
Close your eyes, spin three times, murmuring ‘There’s no place like home”, and on opening, find the front line, mmmK?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/14/2013 @ 6:32 am255. The only terrorism victory I see with the Intelligence arm generally and the NSA specifically is a second term for the antichrist.
NSA and OFA, working together, Forward!
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/14/2013 @ 6:36 am236. Countermeasures, “Don’t shoot, we’re from Mursi”.
No fly zone in Syria. Just who the hell is that going to hurt? One freaking guess.
The US government and Pooter are on the same side, and the Sunnis, Shia and Alawites, together are but cannon fodder.
‘The bodies will be stacked like cordwood’.
“Oh, the humanity!”
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/14/2013 @ 6:46 amIf there’s a surgical procedure where a person can change his race or ethnicity, Edward Snowden needs to look into that, pronto.
Mark (cd1aee) — 6/14/2013 @ 6:51 am“Are you the one who was to come, or should we wait for another?”
“Of two lying together, one will be taken the other left behind.”
Sorry about those of you in CA, NY, FL and IL. You didn’t give yourself a fighting chance.
Given your obvious dislike of flyover country, the hick music, the bible thumping, the beauty pageants, the parades led by doddering vets, if you can make it to Singapore, do so and quickly.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/14/2013 @ 7:48 am