Patterico's Pontifications

he says “if I had a personal e-mail”

that’s key

he’s just saying that on the internet everyone is as vulnerable as everyone else to being spied on by pasty fat-assed fascist piggy american spy pansies

He says he was granted broad “wiretapping” authorities. In a video interview with The Guardian, Snowden claims to have had incredibly broad authority to wiretap Americans, saying “I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president, if I had a personal e-mail.”

and inasmuch as these pasty fat-assed fascist piggy american spy pansies have been peeing their pants since Edward told on them I’m kinda inclined to believe him

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:22 pm

If he were really exposing wrong-doing, he could have gone to Congress and been accorded protection as a whistle-blower. Instead, he gives the info to known liar Greenwald for foreign publication and boards a flight to the PRC.

Then, after the cloak-and-dagger account of his life on the run from a vicious and vindictive government (soon to be released as a major motion picture, The Bourne Atrocity), he gives a melodramatic television interview in which it is all about me-me-me!

There are lessons to be learned here. One is that any big surveillance program probably needs more direct oversight than Congress and the FISA Court are currently equipped to manage. The other is that we are WAY YONDER too lax in granting security clearances if Snowden and Manning qualify.

Estragon (19fa04) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:32 pm

So this is it?

Edward sold his soul for…

this?

He washed his hands of that for this?

He’ll miss his mom and dad for this?

The scorn of a once-great country.

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:35 pm

“If he were really exposing wrong-doing, he could have gone to Congress and been accorded protection as a whistle-blower. Instead, he gives the info to known liar Greenwald for foreign publication and boards a flight to the PRC.”

Estragon – Please tell Mr. DeMille that Mr. Snowden is ready for his close up.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:40 pm

So, in essence Snowden ‘revealed’ the ‘secret’ that Big Brother really is watching all of us.

And our response is “Get Snowden”?

Icy (c5cb1e) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:19 pm

I am beginning to think there is less to this than meets the eye. I know a little about the NSA from a prior life and unless things have gotten a lot looser, some of this doesn’t ring true.

Bill M (c8f413) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:24 pm

I know I would trust Congress cos they have a stellar record on… oh wait, my meds just kicked in.

Gazzer (1b70d8) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:28 pm

Said first time commenter Bill M

Gazzer (1b70d8) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:28 pm

So, in essence Snowden ‘revealed’ the ‘secret’ that Big Brother really is watching all of us.

And our response is “Get Snowden”?

Medal of Freedom! Nobel Peace prize (earned). Something like that.

Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:29 pm

WaPo and the Guardian published just 4 of 42 pages of the Powerpoint presentation, both saying the other pages were far too sensitive to publish.

As a system security administrator he would have exactly the clearances needed to open and read virtually thing in the repository. I believe he had the capability (not authority) to do exactly what he said he could do.

And it was more than just mouthing the words “Big Brother is watching you”. He exposed that Big Brother is capturing everything in your electronic life and keeping it for the off chance that someday you might through some chain of Degrees of Separation know someone
who knows someone
who knows someone
who knows someone
who knows someone
who knows someone
who talked with someone on a BOLO list.

That is all it will take to get your content over years and decades opened and transcribed and reviewed. And a flag put on your life – probably for the remainder of your life (if the DHS No-Fly List is any indication).

Of course, as was just demonstrated with the Attorney General and the DOJ and the IRS that ultimate someone may be contaminated just because they are conservative or favor fetuses being born alive. What? You think it will only be if that someone is with al Qaeda?!?! You wish.

in_awe (7c859a) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:42 pm

Despite Snowden’s obvious leftish tendencies, I think he did all of the US citizens a solid service.

We DO need to have a debate on this topic and we DO need to decide if we trust our obviously untrustworthy feds with every electronic transaction of our lifetime.

Despite all this NSA spying, not one of the many recent known terror incidents were found using this tech. Not a good track record, but all the Tea Party 501(c)4’s got targeted, yessiree bob !!

Bob (dcb1c5) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:47 pm

@8 – (1b70d8)

Hardly first time; just infrequent.

Bill M (c8f413) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:57 pm

5. …And our response is “Get Snowden”?

Comment by Icy (c5cb1e) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:19 pm

I don’t think that’s fair. There’s an old saying in the Navy.

If you’re guilty take the NJP. If you’re innocent demand court martial.

Which sort of sums up my problem with this Snowden character as he demands neither. Just bold truth teller status without a price tag.

Look, I held a clearance for twenty years that required an update every five years. So every five years I’d get a visit from somebody. DIA, NCIS, or FBI. Who wanted to know if I meant those nasty things I said about the gub’mint.

(They never talk to your references; they just use them to find out about other people who don’t like you.)

And I’d say I meant every d***ed word. And they said “I understand” and I got my clearance renewed.

Point being I got a fair hearing I’d give this guy a fair hearing.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:05 pm

“If you’re guilty take the NJP. If you’re innocent demand court martial.”

– Steve57

That’s an interesting point, and it reminds me of a position I took on this blog (re: prosecution of waterboarding) years ago. In fact, this whole series of events has had me thinking of that debate – the “Ticking Bomb Threads.”

“Point being I got a fair hearing I’d give this guy a fair hearing.”

– Steve57

Yup. Although I don’t know that you’d get a fair hearing from this administration – whatever that says for this poor bastard’s chances.

Leviticus (2c236c) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:09 pm

By the way: the Guardian is reporting that the Obama Administration is making Plan B available to girls under 17. “Emergency contraception drug will be available to women of all ages without a prescription.”

Whatever might have possessed them to roll that particular policy initiative out at this particular point in time?

Fucking scum.

Leviticus (2c236c) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:11 pm

Whatever might have possessed them to roll that particular policy initiative out at this particular point in time? #15

“Let loose the squirrels of war!” er “distraction!”

It went hand in hand with his speech on the 50th anniversary of the Pay Equity Act. What he failed to mention is that Dems in DC all underpay women in the same roles as men. Musta been an oversight by the teleprompter.

in_awe (7c859a) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:29 pm

“Emergency contraception drug will be available to women of all ages without a prescription.”

The fun will begin when it is found that meth can be manufactured from the morning after pill.

Chuck Bartowski (ad7249) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:35 pm

“So, in essence Snowden ‘revealed’ the ‘secret’ that Big Brother really is watching all of us.

And our response is “Get Snowden”?”

Icy – Yup. Who needs secrets anymore? Just let any 29 year old high school drop out decide to disclose to the press whatever he decides the public should know because he is so knowledgeable and experienced and those nondisclosure agreements he signed aren’t worth a damn.

Screw regular channels for whistle blowing! Gotta make a splash, because patriotism or something.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:21 am

Well I’m very glad if this turns out to be a bunch of BS.

Dustin (37324e) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:27 am

I hesitate to say he’s full of it. He could have sat right at a nexus that would allow him to do all this.

A system as powerful as he described is not on its own going to identify all problems. A case in point is that it did not find his exit that enabled his leak. The data is probably there. Nobody asked the right question. Computers are VERY literal in that way. You must figure out how to ask the right question.

You can figure out how to find networks of al Qaeda terrorists. It may end up missing all the Hezbollah terrorists, though. You can also ask it to find all the people into underwater knitting who use synthetic yarn. Or worse, they can use the terrorist query with parameters modified to find all the Constitution waving gun owners in the US. Then it could be asked to determine which US laws they broke in the last week as a means of bringing them in for ~~harassment~~ legitimate questioning.

{^_^}

JDow (1a2024) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:57 am

Hey, remember how happy everybody was when the NY Times exposed the details of the SWIFT terrorist financing monitoring program?

Good times, right?

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:00 am

The spying program as described doesn’t need more oversight. The kind of data collections nd trawling described is intolerable.. Itt needs ENDING.

SarahW (b0e533) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:56 am

Just b/c Snowden is a bad guy does not make the Security Complex of the USoA good.

Many people who call themselves Conservative are ignoring the fourth amendment as well as better methods and policies for securing the Country.

The Boston Bombers are the classic example of this. Even with a tip from Russia they blew it.

Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:49 am

Food Stamps for Freedom! Enrollment now closed as of November 6, 2012. Next enrollment date, November 4, 2014.

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:56 am

The next time a “whistleblower” is not at least in material part full of it will be the first time. Every whistleblower case in history has involved a disgruntled employee, a political or quasi-political agenda and a hearsay chain. In this particular case you also have the youth being lost on youth factor. Dude is what, 29 years old? Give me a break. He still has a decade or so to go before he really has a clue about anything in life.

That dog & pony show routine with Greenwald was way too practiced, far too rehearsed, to be taken all that seriously. And obviously Snowden is a rank felon who should be prosecuted and then sent away without a key if not given the needle. Although ironically enough that won’t be too obvious to various fringe demographics on the Internet.

As for the giant elephant in the room, mission creep and abuses are endemic to anti-terrorism programs. There is a proper middle ground. We largely had achieved that middle ground during the prior administration. At present, of course, the government has gone haywire but that’s only about as “surprising” as corruption in Chicago. Elections have real world consequences and it matters who’s in charge.

William Scalia (89a442) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:13 am

I resent that “fringe demographic” crack, Scalia. I’ll have you know that I have a full head of hair. Besides those hanging from my coup stick.

Seriously, prison or the needle? It’s treason to tell the world that the United States government is spying on its own innocent citizens? Seriously?

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:35 am

Think of 10 years of your phone records and Internet activities as the hub of a wheel with the spokes as your IRS returns, Credit history, financial transactions (credit card, checking and savings, brokerage accounts, etc), Travel history and passport records, Voter registration records, Driver’s license and registration – record of infractions, healthcare records, school transcripts – evaluations and standardized test scores, Selective Service and Military records, Hunting license and gun registration, etc, etc.

Now, think about opposing a corrupt, violent, and powerful centralized Administration’s secret police.

ropelight (d228fd) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:35 am

2. Throw oneself on the mercies of Congress for protection and credibility?

Back to your corner, slug.

gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:40 am

You guys, I mean you “you guys”, you know what your problem is? You believe the kid. He’s credible. That’s what wads your undies.

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:42 am

“Prosecute him.”

Why?

What has Snowden stated that isn’t implied in section 215 of the Patriot Act?

Patience.

Let’s see where Greenwald kicks the can.

scott (b8618e) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:44 am

“I didn’t leave my Country, it left me”.

Does one reading the Constitution feel continually reminded that–

the government in situ is always and everywhere equivalent to ‘my Country’?

Are not the souls within rather?

gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:46 am

Asylum in the Soviet… I mean in Russia… maybe there are gymnasts and ballerinas there too.
Next up for Snowden from Russia?
Hacking your bank accounts and then draining them.

steveg (794291) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:06 am

What I find interesting is that Prism appears to be the govt internal program for processing the information. There also appear to be several other programs for collection, and the denials and non-denials all appear to hinge on the differences between the programs.

JD (b63a52) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:13 am

BTW, “publishing libels against the Crown” was held not to be a crime in the famous case of Washington v. Cornwalis, Yorktown 1019, 1781. Just for the record.

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:14 am

Our enemies already knew that we were monitoring them, but the low information voters did not know we are monitoring everyone. This leak is a threat to no one but big government types. If this government action is a violation of the 4th amendment, then he is a hero for exposing the tools of tyranny. But you lawyer types on the prosecution side and on the bench would try to prevent him from using that defense, which in my mind is also tyranny.

Smarty (273307) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:26 am

Now, think about opposing a corrupt, violent, and powerful centralized Administration’s secret police.

Typical unreasoned paranoia by ropelight and the like here, this is.

Gramps2 (738aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:42 am

Gramps2 – Weren’t you placed in moderation under the moniker of Perry?

JD (b63a52) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:48 am

Have you all seen Operation Troll The NSA?

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:51 am

Actually Arendt talked about this, not in the book you think;

The Okhrana, the Czarist predecessor of the GPU, is reported to have invented a filing system in which every suspect was noted on a large card in the center of which his name was surrounded by a red circle; his political friends were designated by smaller red circles and his nonpolitical acquaintances by green ones; brown circles indicated persons in contact with friends of the suspect but not known to him personally; cross-relationships between the suspect’s friends, political and nonpolitical, and the friends of his friends were indicated by lines between the respective circles.[See Laporte, op. Cit., p. 39.] Obviously the limitations of this method are set only by the size of the filing cards, and, theoretically, a gigantic single sheet could show the relations and cross-relationships of the entire population. And this is the utopian goal of the totalitarian secret police: a look at the gigantic map on the office wall should suffice at any given moment to establish, not who is who or who thinks what, but who is related to whom and in what degree or kind of intimacy.

narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:52 am

Let me get this straight. The government is mining our electronic information including email and credit cards, using federal departments like the IRS, DoJ, OSHA etc., to harm fellow Americans they perceive as threats politically, ignoring the deaths of Americans in Fast & Furious Benghazi and drone strikes and the president himself said “it’s time to reward our friends and punish our enemies” in politics. But according to Gramps2, we are into “unreasoned paranoia”. You’ve become such a radical left wing partisan Gramps, I’m beginning to think you’d rather see us on the right dead than admit your boy is a tyrant.

Hoagie (3259ab) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:53 am

BTW, “publishing libels against the Crown” was held not to be a crime in the famous case of Washington v. Cornwalis, Yorktown 1019, 1781.

Bravo, nk! Very intelligent, witty remark.

Chuck Bartowski (11fb31) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:00 am

Thanks, Chuck. I had to Google the date. Now the NSA has flags from two sites for me.

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:06 am

Of course, as was just demonstrated with the Attorney General and the DOJ and the IRS that ultimate someone may be contaminated just because they are conservative or favor fetuses being born alive. What? You think it will only be if that someone is with al Qaeda?!?! You wish.

Worse of all, even if they know someone is affiliated with a terrorist group, the dopes in charge (currently virtually all of the left) will have a response of “don’t judge until you know for certain” (leading to Nidal Hasan and Fort Hood), or “racist videos posted to Youtube are to blame!” (the reaction to and meme about Benghazi), or “Tea Party-ers are a prime suspect!” (limousine-liberal Michael Bloomberg’s initial comment about the attempted bombing of Times Square), or a bureaucratic-type of treatment of “Russians warned us about the Boston bombers.”

And then there’s the lunacy of the IRS.

When basic logic and integrity are missing throughout so much of American society — because of far too many people falling for the notion that liberalism is a beautiful, wonderful, generous, humane, tolerant, noble thing — I’m more irritated with and worried about ourselves than I am with Snowden.

Mark (cd1aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:19 am

Gramps2 – Weren’t you placed in moderation under the moniker of Perry?

More tellingly, if the screen name, with the word “gramps” in it, indicates the age of the poster, then that points to the phenomenon of there being nothing more pathetic than an old-geezer liberal. Presuming he was of the left at an early age, to then go through most of his life still wedded to the nonsense of liberalism is a sign of a mind that never evolved and matured.

When I read posts from liberal people, here or elsewhere, I immediately envision the words coming from someone who’s rather young. There’s something off-kilter when I try to think of such people as being well past their teenage, college or age-30’s years.

Mark (cd1aee) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:28 am

I don’t know what’s “liberal” about endorsing this level of government surveillance. Obamanal, definitely.

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:35 am

Comment by Leviticus (2c236c) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:11 pm

My understanding is that the Obama HHS was against it, but a federal judge told them they had to
so they are
I just wish bureaucrats were liable for damages resulting from their mistakes like doctors are
that’s all
people who make life and death decisions should be made to think about it twice, as in they will be held personally responsible for the consequences of their actions
none of this Pontius Pilate stuff
though I don’t think it worked well for him, either

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:36 am

It would be much more comforting if they had used this kind of information to do things like intervene with Hassan, being in contact with foreign terrorists and all

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:38 am

I agree Mark. I’m always stunned when I see or meet anyone over 30 who is still a naïve leftist. Either they haven’t learned a thing by observing the string of homicidal leftists in history or they have something personal to gain and really don’t give a rats ass about anyone else to get it.

Hoagie (3259ab) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:39 am

I think I get it.

The Snowden leak is a good leak of classified information because it exposes illegal government overreach.

Most of the leaks of classified information during the Bush Administration were bad leaks because they hurt how were fighting the war on terror and did not disclose anything illegal.

People said the Bush leaks should be prosecuted but now are saying the Snowden leak should not because they both involved leaks of classified information or something. Rich, chewy nuance.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:02 am

Most of the leaks of classified information during the Bush Administration were leaked by piggy piggy anti-American CIA butt boys who were trying to kneecap the Iraq war

they were never prosecuted or even reprimanded.

They were promoted.

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:09 am

John Yoo writing at National Review this morning:

Edward Snowden should go to jail, as quickly and for as long as possible. This is a leak case that should be difficult for even Eric Holder to bungle. Snowden has already confessed in public to the crime of leaking classified information. He has said in public how he did it, that he did it with intent, and that he knowingly harmed our national security. Holder will finally find a leaker that he can prosecute.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350676/prosecute-snowden-john-yoo

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:10 am

John Yoo is lying, as piggy piggy NSA collaborators are wont to do.

Mr. Snowden has never once said in public that he knowingly harmed our national security.

“What they’re doing” poses “an existential threat to democracy,” he said.

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:24 am

In most places where America used to be a custodial sentence is not imposed unless the court finds that a) it was in the interest of justice and 2) it was necessary for the protection of the public? See that here, do you?

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:35 am

“Mr. Snowden has never once said in public that he knowingly harmed our national security.”

Mr. Feets – Cute, but Mr. Yoo is not quoting Superstar Leaker Teddy. Doing it with intent, which fast high school drop out acknowledged, means he knowingly harmed our national security.

Next.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:36 am

no Mr. daley what harms our national security is when pasty fat-assed piggy piggy NSA rent boys create over-reaching fascist spying programs what massively empower those who want the United Nations to take the administration of the internet out of piggy fascist american hands.

thanks a lot dumbass NSA pig boys

maybe if you’d spend more time thinking strategically instead of watching gay porn and eating frozen bubu lubu you woulda been on top of the game

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:40 am

Mr. Feets – Prof. Yoo is taking the staunch conservative position. You are taking the emotive vegan pancake situational ethics position. Consider the difference.

Is frozen bubu lubu to be recommended?

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:46 am

yes is very tasty

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:48 am

Edward Snowden wants to empower an ARMY OF 29 YEAR-OLD DECIDERERS-IN-CHIEF!!!!!!!!!11TY!!!!!

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:49 am

Mom, I wanna gro up an have a pole dancing girlfriend and be a leaker of gubmint secrets just like Edward Snowden so I can be on TV.

So, shut up an eat you peas.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:52 am

thank you Edward you did your best to warn us

it’s up to us now

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:55 am

What I’m having trouble with is, how does a citizen deal with the sanctity of “classified” information when there is in fact a question about how and why it ever got classified or hidden in the fist place? Or, assuming that it was properly and legally labeled as “classified” at one time with what seemed like adequate oversight, how does one deal with what has now, though technology become troves of “classified” hackable information that is/can be used against innocent people in ways that the original rules and classification would not have allowed?

I don’t know how to live in a “free” country if people can’t ask questions or to some degree challenge secret and secretive policies of their government. And especially so if the reason they can’t ask questions or get answers is the fact that so much now seems to be top secret or classified and meant to be kept beyond their consciousness as citizens — and also when powerful government bureaucrats avoid legitimate oversight by pleading the fifth or evading FOIA requests by using fake email addresses to mask their identity while conducting official business.

Without making Snowden a hero in any respect, one still should ask this question: What is the real message to the public about the obligation of and safety for whistleblowers? Some are calling whistleblower Snowden a traitor and saying he should be tried as one, while out of the other side of their mouths (or on another page of their magazine) and at almost the same time, they are begging other whistleblowers within the IRS and DOJ and FBI labyrinth to come forward with what they know. That is what we in the biz call inconsistent messaging.

elissa (fccfb8) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:29 am

In order for Edward Bond to read Obama’s emails, wouldn’t that require having ghostwriter Bill Ayers’ private email account ?

Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:35 am

“Some are calling whistleblower Snowden a traitor and saying he should be tried as one, while out of the other side of their mouths (or on another page of their magazine) and at almost the same time, they are begging other whistleblowers within the IRS and DOJ and FBI labyrinth to come forward with what they know.”

elissa – Some such as myself would appreciate additional whistleblowers coming forward through established and legally protected whistleblower channels such as IGs or congressional oversight committees rather than divulging classified information to the grauniad or National Enquirer. That would be consistent, legal messaging.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:36 am

I very much agree with you in theory, daleyrocks. Yes, of course there must be limits. But I think the trust factor for whistleblowers is probably on the low side right now. It is entirely possible I may be misreading the situation, but I think it will be much harder for whistleblowers (and their families) to justify their coming forward now–even through “established and legally protected channels.” I don’t know if there are enough words and assurances to convince them they will be safe and appreciated. The thoroughness and results of recent IG and internal investigations have been less than impressive and also have probably made those whistleblowers wonder it was worth the risk.

Fewer whistleblowers would make our governing overlords very satisfied and happy, I think.

elissa (fccfb8) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:58 am

happyfeet, you are a sybarite. And you’re right. John “Torture Memo” Yoo is everything you called him and worse. He’s the one who’d be at home in China.

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:05 am

I remember that George W. Bush had to give up his private e-mail address when he was inaugurated President and in January 2009 he was glad to get an e-mail account again.

I don’t think Obama has an e-mail account. It was all he could do to get his security people to agree he couild keep his Blackberry. I suppose that means he does have an e-mail account, but what’s on it limited and access as well..

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:13 am

“The thoroughness and results of recent IG and internal investigations have been less than impressive and also have probably made those whistleblowers wonder it was worth the risk.”

elissa – I agree, the IG’s under Obama have mostly been corrupt fascist hacks and their reports bear that out. That is why there are multiple channels for whistleblowers to pursue. The glaring problem with this administration is its vindictiveness and willingness to punish legal whistleblowers, as demonstrated in Fast & Furious and Benghazi, which are both ongoing. Congress needs to make very public examples of those who have retaliated against legal whistleblowers in order not to discourage others from coming forward.

Taking a story directly to the media does not afford the government whistleblower any legal protection or any share in monetary recoveries if financial improprieies are involved.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:32 am

“John “Torture Memo” Yoo is everything you called him and worse. He’s the one who’d be at home in China.”

nk – Sure. He knows nothing about national security. You and Mr. Feets have fun attacking the messenger instead of the message.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:40 am

this is not fun

these days are bleak and colorless as our freedoms wane and our futures darken

we need more Edwards we need a legion

but every one is precious and rare and we have very little time left

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:06 am

daleyrocks–assuming (and just for assumption’s sake) that he’s sincere, legit, and that there is not some larger nefarious story here related to Snowdon and why he chose to go the newspaper route rather than through the established and legally protected whistleblower channels–who for instance do you think as a contract employee he could and should have gone to? Eric Holder, Harry Reed, Lindsay Graham, Eric Cantor, Dianne Feinstein,? Who? Does anyone even know if he did try some version of the official route and was rebuffed?

I guess most of the leaker action is now over on the newer thread. But I’d still like to see any people reading here to weigh in on the issues in the first two paragraphs of my post @61.

elissa (fccfb8) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:52 am

“Does anyone even know if he did try some version of the official route and was rebuffed?”

elissa – I have not seen any suggestion he tried to go through official channels, but I would not have chosen any of the names you suggested. With his vast constitutional knowledge it appears he just stole the classified information from his employer and decided to expose it to the world. He was probably not influenced at all by the deification of other thieves like Bradley Manning or Julian Assange.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:27 pm

“this is not fun”

Mr. Feets – Ima go back to my lesbian pron movies.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:32 pm

saucy rambunctious lesbians are only part of the answer I think

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:54 pm

You know, if they used this facility to finally enforce the DO NOT CALL list, Obama’s popularity would skyrocket overnight.

Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:05 pm

Not to mention ending spam

Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:07 pm

52. John Yoo is lying, as piggy piggy NSA collaborators are wont to do.

Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:24 am

John Yoo isn’t lying. I could see someone reading some of Edward Snowden’s admissions as stating he knowingly harmed US security. He could be wrong, though, and not just about that.

I don’t know if Snowden had done a service to the country or if he’s harmed national security, or both at the same time, and I so I don’t know if he needs to face possible prosecution. It’s called having the courage of your convictions.

Henry David Thoreau went to jail rather than pay a dime in support of the Mexican-American War. A friend who went to visit him asked, “What are you doing in there?” And Thoreau responded, “What are you doing out there?”

Meaning of course if you believe a law or in this case a government program is so wrong you can’t cooperate with it, then you should be willing to go to prison over it. That’s the heart of civil disobedience. That’s how you get the law changed, if indeed you are right. Even Gandhi admitted that civil disobedience wouldn’t have worked with the Nazis like it worked with the British (when he wasn’t praising Hitler or busy giving and receiving enemas from the teenaged girls he slept nekkid with; he was a weirdo of the first order and “inconsistent” fails to cover it). Because Gandhi believed (when he didn’t believe otherwise) the British wouldn’t pile injustice upon injustice. They could tell the difference between right and wrong and eventually would say “Enough, we’re not doing this anymore.”

If Snowden truly believes he’s right, then he needs to roll the dice and convince a jury of his peers of that. Because I tell you what; if he continues to seek refuge abroad he’ll get it but the price will be a thorough debrief. Vlad Putin has stepped up and said he’s willing to offer him asylum if China ain’t.

Either in China or Russia, Snowden will have to tell them what he knows if he wants to stay. And those countries aren’t interested in finding out about how the USG is unconstitutionally monitoring its own people. So he will have to damage our national security to save his own skin if that’s the route he chooses.

What will your opinion of him be then, Mr. Feets, if he chooses that road?

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:20 pm

I meant to say Snowden needed to face possible prosecution but I didn’t know if he needed to go to jail, but it still worked.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:23 pm

“we need more Edwards we need a legion”

Mr. Feets – We get car thief who steal a car and wraps it around a tree. We throw his butt stupid butt in jail.

We get car thief B who steal and car and the police recover it and discover that he has only put five miles on the odometer, filled the tank up with gas, vacuumed and washed the car. Car thief B is Edward Snowden and we still throw his butt stupid butt in jail because we don’t confuse the end with the act.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:07 pm

steals a car

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:08 pm

elissa @61 & 70, I hope I can address some of the issues you raised in those comments.

Had I been in Snowden’s shoes I would not leave the country. I would have first tried my chain of command, then the IG, then consult an attorney and have my attorney contact the appropriate congressional committee. If that failed and I believed a horrible injustice was ongoing, I’d contact the press and expose it.

But I wouldn’t leave the country because, as I’ve mentioned previously, the price for asylum is too high to pay. Unless you’re willing to become a traitor.

But leaking and running seems to me to be the equivalent of cowardice in the face of the enemy. Perhaps it’s a consequence of being in the company of better men then me, but if they’re willing to face death to do what’s right how can I not be willing to face incarceration if I truly believe it’s the right thing?

How does Snowden’s service to his country compare to Doherty’s and Woods’? The latter two hijacked a plane to run to the rescue of other Americans and died for their efforts. Snowden is by his own admission hunting for a country that will resist the USG’s efforts to recover him.

I guess I’m fortunate I didn’t have to test the courage of my convictions. About the closest I came to spying on Americans was my first command. It was an F-14 TARPS squadron. TARPS stands for Tactical Airborne Reconnaissance Pod System. Stateside we had to practice; not just the aviators but the analysts who pored over the imagery we collected. Mostly we did this over National Forests or other unpopulated areas. Five O asked us to let them know if we spotted any marijuana plantations. We said sure. Our JAG told us it was about the same as calling 911 if we saw a purse snatching while driving in uniform into work. We had the same right to report a crime as anyone else. We didn’t let the cops plan our routes, though. We really were training, not spying.

And we didn’t have a database.

I don’t mean to denigrate law enforcement. It wouldn’t have occurred to them to ask. But here’s the real problem. The individuals who won’t ask can be replaced eventually. And the individuals who won’t respond in the affirmative can be replaced eventually.

That’s really how you get rid of “whistleblowers,” elissa. Not through intimidation but attrition.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:20 pm

What will your opinion of him be then, Mr. Feets, if he chooses that road?

My opinion is the constitution-defiling piggy NSA whoreboys and hoochie senators from California and Meghan’s coward daddy’s little dog Lindsey need to stop squealing about “treason” like fascist little piggies and do the right thing and reign in the spythugs and say thank you Mr. Snowden.

That is my opinion.

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 2:27 pm

If Snowden spills his guts the Russkies and/or the Chicoms to save his a** u r cool with it, Mr. Feets?

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:11 pm

that would be a very naughty thing to do

but Edward isn’t like that

he’s a good person

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:14 pm

Allahpundit and a few others are raising the possibility that Snowdon might could be the conduit/stooge of someone much much higher up in the government who wanted this info to be made public.

elissa (0bd6f8) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:15 pm

principled

stalwart

steady

that’s our edward

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:15 pm

Our government lies to us and always has, because that’s what classified information is all about. Historically, the government lied to protect classified information designed to protect us, but I fear Obama also uses classified information for political reasons. (See, for example, the IRS scandal.) Giving him this kind of power, and what it could lead to, is a bridge too far for me.

DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:21 pm

I think Edward Snowden could easily be a patsy or fall guy, but it appears he’s a willing fall guy.

DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:22 pm

“stalwart”

Mr. Feets – Standing up for his principles by fleeing is stalwart 15 minutes of fame Mr. Edward leaving his weeping pole dancing girlfriend behind to pick up the pieces of her shattered life.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:24 pm

Mr. daley it would be the easiest thing in the world for me to turn my back on Edward and simply accept whatever the government says and not worry my pretty little head about all that constitution stuff.

But that is something I will not do.

Edward deserves better than that.

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:28 pm

So, everybody who is saying Snowden is an ill-educated, paranoid, slum-dwelling, fabulist liar with a slutty girlfriend who should be drawn and quartered for libeling and slandering our wonderful government: Are you saying that the NSA is not in fact conducting the surveillance he alleges in the manner and scope he alleges? Are you saying that?

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:42 pm

always assume the government is lying.

they have every reason to shape your thoughts and no reason to tell the truth, unless it’s convenient.

redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:42 pm

Because Snowden is completely incidental to the insidious gathering of information in the rough equivalent of a general warrant on the domestic poopulation.

SarahW (b0e533) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:52 pm

“Are you saying that the NSA is not in fact conducting the surveillance he alleges in the manner and scope he alleges? Are you saying that?”

nk – If you were paying attention you would know what people are saying and not have to ask stupid questions.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:07 pm

“Because Snowden is completely incidental to the insidious gathering of information in the rough equivalent of a general warrant on the domestic poopulation.”

SarahW – He’s just a thief who should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:11 pm

“Edward deserves better than that.”

Mr. Feets – Edward deserves all the situational morality you can muster.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:20 pm

“Because Snowden is completely incidental to the insidious gathering of information in the rough equivalent of a general warrant on the domestic poopulation.”

This.

JD (129489) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:20 pm

Edward Snowden is a popular brand of whistleblower among people I know.

happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:34 pm

The kid might be a bad apple and might be lots of awful things but not one piece of info at this time strikes me as “National Security” in nature.

To presume that, the other side would need to be stupid enough to think the NSA does not monitor electronic communications. And since NY Times v George Bush, that argument is dead.

Now, maybe more comes out and what he did is illegal but “National Security Breach” and what he did does not really represent the crime to date.

Rodney King's Spirit (ae12ec) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:41 pm

nk – If you were paying attention you would know what people are saying and not have to ask stupid questions.

All I’m hearing is irrelevant smears. Look, gay squirrels!

nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:44 pm

“Because Snowden is completely incidental to the insidious gathering of information in the rough equivalent of a general warrant on the domestic poopulation.”
This.
Comment by JD (129489) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:20 pm

— THIS ^^^

Icy (556597) — 6/11/2013 @ 4:58 pm

Fiat Justitia Ruat Caelum

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:17 pm

John Boehner — you remember him, right? the guy that said of Obamacare “it’s the law of the land” — called Snowden “a traitor”.

Ahem.

Is there a Tea Party candidate for Boehner’s district?

Icy (556597) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:18 pm

90. So, everybody who is saying Snowden is an ill-educated, paranoid, slum-dwelling, fabulist liar with a slutty girlfriend who should be drawn and quartered for libeling and slandering our wonderful government

Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/11/2013 @ 3:42 pm

I categorically reject your “slutty girlfriend” portion of the argument. I say that, sir, as a concerned citizen who recently had to remove the stripper pole from my living room as the city council kept invading my privacy on various pretexts.

“GET YOUR OWN DAMN STRIPPER POLE,” as I shouted to the nice lady at city hall.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:31 pm

Zoning. It’s always zoning. “Are you zoned for this?” Give me a freakin’ break.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:33 pm

Just saying, when the Police Chief and his lieutenants started dropping by and slipping 20s into my babe’s g string “just to make sure” she wasn’t providing material support to terrorism I began to doubt the purity of their motives.

That and the shots of Jagermeister.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:42 pm

He was just warching the search strings go through;

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/11/fbi-requests-for-records-under-patriot-act-have-increased-1000-in-just-four-years-update-data-mining-goes-deeper-than-thought/

narciso (3fec35) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:21 pm

“All I’m hearing is irrelevant smears.”

nk – I agree. Calling him a hero is an smear irrelevant smear on heroes. Call him what he is, a thief, throw his butt stupid butt in jail and be done with it. Stop confusing the end with the act and move on.

SarahW correctly pointed out he is incidental to what is going on, but usually only the left makes a habit of glorifying criminals.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:57 pm

edward snowden is it cold in your little corner of the world

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:17 pm

reading the emails of a chicago trash punk-ass food stamp bitch like barack obama ain’t no thang I think

you just gotta know what his email address is then sniff for packets or whatever

ain’t no thang if you got the nsa login

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:19 pm

oh.

i kinda figured that one was gonna get filtratered

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:20 pm

daley, I think it’s too early to move on to the death penalty phase of the trial. I’m not a fan of this guy, but I still think he deserves a fair hearing.

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:21 pm

he deserves a cookie from The Great American Cookie Company what says bite me nsa piggy boys on it in that tasty icing they have

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:24 pm

Imagine if we still had an Attorney General like John Ashcroft….

SPQR (768505) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:25 pm

that means one of us is gonna have to go to the mall

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:25 pm

Or u could bake ur own cookies, feets.

elissa (0bd6f8) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:29 pm

that’s a good point i have all those frozen doughball things I bought from NG for Baby A’s daycare fundraiser

but that icing is really tasty at Great American Cookie Company but maybe there’s a recipe online

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:32 pm

Appropos of nothing I’m just digging it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=HVimgxRVM08

Although it could recommemend a getaway vehicle. Buelhler?

Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:39 pm

A few points:

I would find it strange that a lower level NSA staffer, who did know the email addresses of others including those over him, would be able to hack into their emails. What a mess of blackmail and counter-blackmail that would be.
So I think some of his talk is not exactly accurate.

But with all of the data out there and smart people who like a challenge, it seems to me that unless a lot of data is purposefully erased at the source of the data collection, who knows what mischief might be stirred up at some point.

If there was a minimal number of people that could be trusted in charge it might not be sooo bad, at least at the moment, but Sandy Burglar is essentially let off when it is clear he stole and destroyed important stuff, we can’t call Hassan a jihadist, the IRS goes after political grudges, lies are made about dead ambassadors and those doing the lying are given promotions,
so it is not very reassuring.

What to do? Only use cash and the computer at the library while wearing a disguise to not be identified on surveillance camera?
Change your name to an Arabic muslim sounding name and get a tan?
Read the Psalms of David as he is praying to be delivered from his enemies? Well, that is a good idea, but anything in addition?

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:47 pm

Here’s another one MD. If you only ever buy cat food but feed it to your dogs it will confuse the hell out of the government watchers.

elissa (0bd6f8) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:02 pm

Do away with your contract cell phone and get one that you buy cards to add minutes.

peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:03 pm

Somebody like PagePlusCellular. Minutes good for 4 months and carry over if you add more time b4 they expire.

peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:05 pm

Please contact your senator to let him/her know where you stand on the immigration bill and how, as a constituent, you expect him/her to vote. Do it first thing in the morning.

elissa (0bd6f8) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:16 pm

i have no senator

and the pikachu stands alone

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:18 pm

It will never pass the house elissa.

peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:23 pm

It will never pass the house elissa.

House Speaker John Boehner said Tuesday he thinks there’s a good chance the (immigration) legislation can be signed into law “by the end of the year.”

DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:53 pm

the boehnerfascism is strong in the house

the NSA piggy boys are holding boehner’s puppet strings

he probably likes little boys or what have you

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:00 pm

“I’m not a fan of this guy, but I still think he deserves a fair hearing.”

Steve57 – Edward deserves due process before they throw his butt stupid butt in jail. What many here do not seem to grasp is that there is no contradiction between disapproving of Snowden’s selfish criminal actions and also disapproving of the NSA’s apparent current surveillance activities. Feeling a need to glorify Edward places one in the unenviable moral position of judging what are good criminal leaks and bad criminal leaks based on the outcome rather than viewing them all as criminal leaks. I wish people luck with that.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:15 pm

Moral relativism, it’s what’s for dinner!

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:19 pm

there’s no such thing as due process when your “department of justice” is run by corrupt whores

it’s as simple as that

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:19 pm

Edward has done more to oppose fascism here in our sad little joke of a country than just about anybody in the whole world

someday we’ll have a new holiday called Edward Day and we’ll tell all the kids about Edward and how Americans slowly started waking up

there will be cake and ice cream too

and moms will say hey now there don’t forget to save a piece for Edward!

and the laughing children will grow solemn

course not mom, they will say

it’s his day after all

and mom will say that’s right sweetie

never forget that

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:24 pm

Steve57 – Edward deserves due process before they throw his butt stupid butt in jail.

In other words, “I promise you a fair trial and a nice hanging”.

Yeah, I’d really expect to get justice from a perjurer what lies to congress. It will be a wonder if he doesn’t commit “suicide” in his cell by beating himself to death, or having a mysterious accident like a drone landing on his head while overseas. I wouldn’t put a damn thing past these corrupt sons-of-bitches that are in charge.

peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:27 pm

“Edward has done more to oppose fascism here in our sad little joke of a country than just about anybody in the whole world”

Damn right. The so-called patriots will hate him despite his heroism and personal sacrifice for liberty.

Former Conservative (9087bf) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:37 pm

i just don’t understand it Mr. F. Conservative

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:40 pm

Well happyfeet you abbreviated an important part of my nickname. This is all part of why the “Former”.

Former Conservative (31844d) — 6/11/2013 @ 10:56 pm

you sound like a dangerous free-thinker

happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:05 pm

“Edward has done more to oppose fascism here in our sad little joke of a country than just about anybody in the whole world”

Mr. Feets – We need to encourage 29 year-old know nothing high school drop outs everywhere to emulate Edward and expose secrets to the media because they feel something is wrong. Who cares if they are right. It the thought and feelings that matter. That would make earth a better place.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 11:36 pm

Daley, I’m not being facetious, do you think that if you saw that the govt. was doing something unconstitutional like gathering info on American citizens, that you would recognize it? If so, what is so unbelievable about a 29 year old recognizing it and exposing it to the public?

After all it took a child to point out the obvious, “The Emperor has no clothes”.

peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:16 am

And also, whistleblowers that have followed procedure during this administration’s reign of terror haven’t been treated to kindly. They seem to wind up being fired and facing charges.

peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:20 am

what i want to know is, how is it the government can listen to our calls, read our emails, track us on line and collate all that data effortlessly, but, at the same time, they can’t find any the illegal aliens in this country, most of whom can be found by either driving into the parking lot of the local home improvement store, watching the bus stops in up scale neighborhoods or by going to the fast food restaurant or factory of your choice?

redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:32 am

Here’s two liberal sources that I googled and found that are even critical of the One.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/obama-whistleblower-prosecutions-press_n_3091137.html

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/obamas-whistleblowers-stuxnet-leaks-drones

peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:34 am

“Daley, I’m not being facetious, do you think that if you saw that the govt. was doing something unconstitutional like gathering info on American citizens, that you would recognize it? If so, what is so unbelievable about a 29 year old recognizing it and exposing it to the public?”

poa – As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, and others have echoed, I would expect a whistleblower to pursue established channels for exposing wrongdoing rather than blasting classified secrets to the media as a first choice. The public has no reason to know all the details of classified intelligence gathering operations. If every government employee who got a bug up his butt about something decided to go to the media with it rather through established channels that would result in pure anarchy. Individual lower level employees rarely have the entire picture to determine whether the pieces of the puzzle they see in front of them are right or wrong. The government deserves to keep secrets and the Founders agreed. Taking the position that you and gary did on the other thread that it doesn’t, that the public deserves to know everything, puts you exactly in the position of what people claim the NSA is doing now. Expose everything to the public and our enemies. A ridiculous position to take.

What the NSA is doing based on the current reading of Snowden’s disclosures appears to be wrong. Lionizing Snowden for disclosing what the NSA is doing, however, is pure moral relativism. Again, just go back to the Bush administration when people were condemning bad leaks which impaired our ability to fight the war on terror. Now suddenly there is another leak, again of classified information, but some people call it good because it exposes government overreach. Hypocrisy.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:39 am

Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:32 am

What do I win if I answer?

It seems that you have to want to find something and actively look for it in order to find it. They couldn’t find one illegal alien if you put them smack dab in the middle of a Cinco de Mayo celebration, with all of the ~~undocumented workers, errr welfare recipients~~ illegal aliens wearing, “I am an illegal alien” sign around their necks.

peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:40 am

“And also, whistleblowers that have followed procedure during this administration’s reign of terror haven’t been treated to kindly.”

poa – Yeah, I noted that upthread. Thanks for reading.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:41 am

“Daley, I’m not being facetious, do you think that if you saw that the govt. was doing something unconstitutional like gathering info on American citizens, that you would recognize it?”

poa – No, I’m too dumb and don’t know anything about computers.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:44 am

Yeah, it’s classified because what they are doing is collecting info on US citizens in violation of law, and they don’t want us to know about it. This admenstruation classifies everything in order to try and keep the public in the dark and unaware of their lawlessness. This is not the way our republic is supposed to work. They are responsible to me and to every other citizen of this country.

They have classified so much that has no reason to be classified, that it has become meaningless. By the way, if Nixon had classified the break in at the Watergate and all that followed, would you have supported that? I don’t think many thought highly of those tape erasures.

peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:53 am

Now suddenly there is another leak, again of classified information, but some people call it good because it exposes government overreach. Hypocrisy.

Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:39 am

Govt. Overreach is exactly what should be exposed to the light of day, and I don’t care which party is doing it. Spying on US citizens is wrong and unconstitutional unless probable cause is shown. It has to be narrowly detailed and not sweeping like this has been revealed to be. True classified intel like battle plans, confidential informants, and such should be classified.

The true hypocrites are in this admenstruation, they leaked classified intel that led to the imprisonment of the doctor who fingered Osama, and leaked about Seal Team 6 that led to their deaths. They leak anything that they think sheds good light on Obama, and they don’t care that it puts lives at risk when they do it.

peedoffamerican (04dfe5) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:05 am

“What do I win if I answer?” Comment by peedoffamerican (c1642d) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:40 am

an all expense paid vacation in Guantanamo Bay, courtesy of Ear Leader for the crime of “Lèse-majesté”

redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:17 am

Article by Schneier about how we got to this point.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/05/the_politics_of_3.html

Second is for HappyFeet who seems to support Snowden’s actions (also by Schneier)

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/what-we-dont-know-about-spying-on-citizens-scarier-than-what-we-know/276607/

Last is a review of FISA

http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2013/06/dnis-non-denial-mass-surveillance-americans

If all data is being sucked up as claimed the Feds know definitively who is responsible for the swattings that have become popular the past couple of years. It’s only metadata – shouldn’t they share that?

vor2 (038a8c) — 6/12/2013 @ 2:22 am

an all expense paid vacation in Guantanamo Bay, courtesy of Ear Leader for the crime of “Lèse-majesté”

Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 6/12/2013 @ 1:17 am

Hell, I wouldn’t mind that. They eat better and receive better medical care than I do. More likely they would kidnap me and render to me to a cesspool like Iran with trumped up evidence of being a spy..

peedoffamerican (35b482) — 6/12/2013 @ 2:33 am

Why do some people think “classified” is a major moral principle on par with, I dunno, the constitution? Or truth itself? Or privacy, or freedom, or resisting tyranny?

Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:51 am

Do away with your contract cell phone and get one that you buy cards to add minutes.
Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:03 pm

— And you think these can’t be tracked because . . . what? NCIS told you?

Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:47 am

vor2 brings up an interesting question: If metadata on nearly every call is being tracked and stored, then WHY can the authorities never seem to be able to trace and/or ID the people that make SWATting calls? I mean, we know that in at least one of these cases a report was made to the FBI; does the NSA not share their toys with other agencies?
Is it THAT easy to block the tracking?
Do pre-paid no plan phones really make a difference? (maybe in identifying who owns the phone; but in tracking the calls made on it? doubtful)
Are there huge gaps in what data the government is actually collecting? (If so, they appear content to let us think that they’re collecting almost everything)

Perhaps the most important question is, how useful is all of this information to them? Claims have been made, without ANY supporting evidence whatsoever, that a couple of serious planned acts of terrorism have been thwarted as a direct result of the program, but is this really the case?

Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:16 am

Why do some people think “classified” is a major moral principle on par with, I dunno, the constitution? Or truth itself? Or privacy, or freedom, or resisting tyranny?
Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:51 am

— And this is my point with regard to Snowden: When the ‘classified information’ being released amounts to a statement by the federal government that says “F*ck the Fourth Amendment, we do what we want!” then I’m inclined to really not care about the fact that the word “Classified” was rubber-stamped onto said document.

See, I want to know when the Executive Branch — with, as the administration has been so eager to point out, the tacit acceptance (if not outright complicity) of the Legislative & Judicial branches — blithely disregards The Supreme Law of the Land.
What did the president say the other day? “You can’t have 100% security and also have 100% privacy.” This was right after he said,

Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:46 am

Why do some people think “classified” is a major moral principle on par with, I dunno, the constitution? Or truth itself? Or privacy, or freedom, or resisting tyranny?
Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:51 am

— And this is my point with regard to Snowden: When the ‘classified information’ being released amounts to a statement by the federal government that says “F*ck the Fourth Amendment, we do what we want!” then I’m inclined to really not care about the fact that the word “Classified” was rubber-stamped onto said document.

See, I want to be informed when the Executive Branch — with, as the administration has been so eager to point out, the tacit acceptance (if not outright complicity) of the Legislative & Judicial branches — blithely disregards The Supreme Law of the Land.

What did the president say the other day? “You can’t have 100% security and also have 100% privacy.” This was right after he said, “Nobody is listening to your telephone calls.” Two sentences, three strawmen.

WHO is calling for ‘100% security’? And WHO expects the government to be capable of providing it? Did he not read the oath that he’s taken twice? (four times, if you count the number of times that the ceremony has actually been performed)
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
‘Constitutional scholar’ — I guess that means he studies ways of subverting and doing end-runs around it.
‘Constitutional Law Professor’ — What a joke. You cannot teach that which you do not know, nor believe in.
Now, is protecting the safety of the American people one of the president’s duties? Absolutely. But he didn’t swear an oath to keep the American people 100% secure; he swore an oath to do his BEST to keep the American people’s Constitution 100% secure.
And now, when the Executive Branch of government has seemingly been caught red-handed violating the Fourth Amendment to that Constitution, his response is ‘you folks are just gonna have to sacrifice some privacy in exchange for security’.

Sacrifice liberty in exchange for protection.
Give us some of each and every paycheck and we promise to give you a pension — if you live long enough.
Give us some more of your paycheck and we promise to cover your senior medical bills — ditto the above stipulation.
Give us your implied consent and we promise to force private companies to cover your medical bills before you’re old enough for the government to cover them — it will only cost you a little bit out of each paycheck.
Look the other way when we reach into the diaper of your 2-year-old, or your 92-year-old; you never know who might have a pipe-bomb wedged up their ass — that’s a part of your paycheck that’s being put to good use!

And please, PLEASE, allow the people whose paychecks are paid with the money we take from your paychecks to interpret the phrase “unreasonable searches and seizures” as liberally as is humanly possible. Because, really, can any action that is taken in the pursuance of affording you close to 100% security truly be labeled ‘unreasonable’?

—————

WHO is calling for 100% privacy? We know that we’re not all hermits, and that in order to coexist peacefully we must live under Rule of Law, and that SOMETIMES it is necessary for those that are protecting us under those laws to observe people that may or may not have violated one or more of those laws. NOBODY is demanding 100% privacy (strawman) but neither is any reasonable person that is living in “the land of the free” willing to play the zero-sum game of ‘if we look at everybody, then we’ll catch everyone that is doing something wrong’.

—————

WHO, of any substantive reputation — and who wasn’t just unintentionally or subconsciously substituting the word ‘listening’ for ‘tracking’ in the midst of a radio show rant — has accused the government of actually listening to millions of phone calls? That’s right — nobody. This didn’t stop the president from trotting out that strawman though, did it.

“Mr. President, the American people want to know why the NSA, with your blessing, is tracking virtually every phone call that’s made in this country.”
“Well, first of all, I want to assure the American people that nobody is listening to your phone calls.”
“Mr. President, nobody is asking if you’re actually listening to the calls; they want to know why you are tracking all of them.”
“Yeah but, let me be clear, as I have always said, we are not listening to anyone’s calls.”
“Mr. President, could you now spout some meaningless, absolutist talking point; by which you say something that on the surface seems commonsensical, but really is meant to excuse tyrannical behavior?”
“You can’t have 100% security and also have 100% privacy.”
“Thank you, Mr. President.”
“You, uh, can’t make the trains run on-time unless you break a few eggs.”
“That’s okay Mr. President, we have enough for our stories; you don’t need to go off-prompter.”
“Whew! Thanks, guys.”

—————

The overriding story of this scandal has NOTHING to do with Edward Snowden.

Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 11:20 am

“– And this is my point with regard to Snowden: When the ‘classified information’ being released amounts to a statement by the federal government that says “F*ck the Fourth Amendment, we do what we want!””

Icy – Have you asked to be put on the Executive Branch’s email distribution list?

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:23 pm

“The overriding story of this scandal has NOTHING to do with Edward Snowden.”

Icy – That has been pointed out and agreed to a few times.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:25 pm

“Govt. Overreach is exactly what should be exposed to the light of day, and I don’t care which party is doing it. Spying on US citizens is wrong and unconstitutional unless probable cause is shown. It has to be narrowly detailed and not sweeping like this has been revealed to be. True classified intel like battle plans, confidential informants, and such should be classified.”

poa – Then we can agree on that. What I object to is the method. The point you make above starkly contrasts with the ludicrous position you and gg took in the other thread that there did not have to be any government secrets.

That position brought back memories of the old SNL skit of reporters pestering a general demanding that he tell them what time and from what direction the secret invasion would begin because the American people had a right to know.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 3:52 pm

Icy, great post.

With Snowden, the government hoisted itself on its own petard with its vetting.
Crimes: Zero
Tax issues: Zip
Wife beater: Zilch
Sex scandals: Nada
Homosexual: Nothing
Debts: Nope
Living above his means: Nah
Suspicious associates: No

In court, we call this an “unimpeachable witness”.

nk (875f57) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:25 pm

Comment by Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/11/2013 @ 1:20 pm

Because I tell you what; if he continues to seek refuge abroad he’ll get it but the price will be a thorough debrief.

Edward Snowden: US government has been hacking Hong Kong and China for years – South China Morning Post, Hong Kong June 13, 2013

In an exclusive interview carried out from a secret location in the city, the former Central Intelligence Agency analyst also made explosive claims that the US government had been hacking into computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland for years.

At Snowden’s request we cannot divulge details about how the interview was conducted. ….

In a frank hour-long interview, the 29-year-old, who US authorities have confirmed is now the subject of a criminal case, said he was neither a hero nor a traitor and that:

• US National Security Agency’s controversial Prism programme extends to people and institutions in Hong Kong and mainland China;

• The US is exerting “bullying’’ diplomatic pressure on Hong Kong to extradite him;
• Hong Kong’s rule of law will protect him from the US;
• He is in constant fear for his own safety and that of his family.

Snowden has been in Hong Kong since May 20 when he fled his home in Hawaii to take refuge here, a move which has been questioned by many who believe the city cannot protect him.

“People who think I made a mistake in picking HK as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality,” he said.

Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:29 pm

Comment by vor2 (038a8c) — 6/12/2013 @ 2:22 am

If all data is being sucked up as claimed the Feds know definitively who is responsible for the swattings that have become popular the past couple of years. It’s only metadata – shouldn’t they share that?

That’s not supposed to be used to solve ordinary crimes.

And they only have billing records or similar records of calls.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:32 pm

The LEFT is in full ALYNSKI-TURGID mode. The smearing and discrediting of Snowden is right on schedule. I guess he didn’t really have the goods, so there will be no need to prosecute him.
I remember a time when phone calls from Yemen and Pakistan from known terror associates made TO the U.S.A were off limits according to LIBTARDS.
Yes. Obama was against that. Yet he has no problem with AMERICANS being watched??

Gus (694db4) — 6/12/2013 @ 4:43 pm

And you think these can’t be tracked because . . . what? NCIS told you?

Comment by Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:47 am

Not saying that they can’t be tracked, they can’t be linked to you by a contract.

peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:20 pm

poa – Then we can agree on that. What I object to is the method. The point you make above starkly contrasts with the ludicrous position you and gg took in the other thread that there did not have to be any government secrets.

Daley, I never advocated that there did not have to be any govt secrets. I said that Unconstitutional acts and violation of laws need to be exposed by any means necessary, no matter if the admenstruation classifies it or not. Exposure of corrupt acts is justified, or else any administration could classify everything they do that is illegal or unconstitutional in order to continue with their violations.

peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:36 pm

“In court, we call this an “unimpeachable witness”.”

nk – Except for him being a liar and a thief, he’s great.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:37 pm

nk – Except for him being a liar and a thief, he’s great.

You forgot snitch, rat, dirty stool-pigeon, informer, loosemouth …

that every prosecutor trying to put some gangster away would do a novena for.

nk (875f57) — 6/13/2013 @ 6:15 am

Who shall watch the watchers;

http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/whistleblower-state-department-hired-agents-with-criminal-backgrounds/

narciso (3fec35) — 6/13/2013 @ 6:32 am

And you think these can’t be tracked because . . . what? NCIS told you?
Comment by Icy (5ef24e) — 6/12/2013 @ 7:47 am
Not saying that they can’t be tracked, they can’t be linked to you by a contract.
Comment by peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/12/2013 @ 8:20 pm

— Just fingerprints, skin cells and the GPS locator placing it inside your house or car.

Icy (a7f398) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:22 am

Somebody has to do the dirty work, Mr. narciso.

Icy (a7f398) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:24 am

Icy – Have you asked to be put on the Executive Branch’s email distribution list?
Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/12/2013 @ 12:23 pm

— I thought it only polite to wish the FLOTUS a Happy Mothers Day, and was hopeful to receive a personal reply.

Icy (a7f398) — 6/13/2013 @ 8:30 am

Another article from the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/iranian-election-hackers-target-gmail-accounts

But since it’s Iran doing that, I guess that’s nothing to get excited about.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/13/2013 @ 11:00 am

It’s actually phishing, and probably in Iran.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/13/2013 @ 11:01 am

From
Casablanca 2013: Captain Snowden: “…I’m shocked, shocked to find that
electronic data gathering is going on in here….”

Snowden has revealed no new groundbreaking facts
regarding electronic data gathering. From my lengthy experience in the computer/high tech industry we have been mined for years. Per the terms of service the data we pass around on the web is not owned by “us”. It belongs to the thousands upon thousands of companies we deal with everyday.

Carnivore and its other brother programs have been around for decades He is obviously a huge fan of the
Hollywood B movies “The Net” and “Enemy of the State”. I
truly believe he’s been…here we go you folks who like aluminum head cover 1)co-opted by another agency to embarrass the NSA; 2)recruited by the Chicoms to embarass the US; 3)is an actor recruited by the govt. to play the part of patriot whistle blower to show what happens to such a person; 3) is just a disaffected nerd looking for fame and fortune or my favorite conspiracy 4)working with his “pole dancing ” gf to drive traffic to her youtube channel.

The real scandal is how a 29 y.o
HS/jr college/US armed forces dropout, with limited professional technical
experience, who reportedly worked as a security guard at the CIA and Dell ( probably in customer service-Dell won’t say), got a job at the CIA, NSA, and Booz and Allen in the first place with ANY access to potentially classified info (at least according to his little “narrative”). I’d more believe his story if was said he was a janitor at B&A and he overheard some real tech guys talking in the restroom. Any of these make a great movie script. WARNING: Don’t even think about stealing these ideas. I have already copyrighted them and pitched them to some guys in the movie biz.

” …Move along, these aren’t the droids we’re looking for…”

Ronnie (8a5476) — 6/13/2013 @ 1:18 pm

I’ve been exploring for a little bit for any high quality articles or weblog posts on this kind of space . Exploring in Yahoo I ultimately stumbled upon this web site. Reading this info So i’m happy to express that I’ve an incredibly excellent uncanny feeling I came upon just what I needed. I such a lot surely will make certain to do not fail to remember this website and provides it a glance regularly.

潜水|泰国|东南亚 (472652) — 6/24/2013 @ 11:53 pm

6/10/2013

Snowden: I Could Have Read Obama’s Emails If I Had His Private Email Address

173 Responses to “Snowden: I Could Have Read Obama’s Emails If I Had His Private Email Address”

Favorite Sites

Links

Patterico Sells Out