Leaker Identified: Edward Snowden
Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old system administrator and former undercover CIA employee, unmasked himself Sunday as the principal source of recent Washington Post and Guardian disclosures about top-secret NSA programs, denouncing what he described as systematic surveillance of innocent citizens and saying in an interview, “it’s important to send a message to government that people will not be intimidated.”
Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Fei[ns]tein (D-Calif.) said Sunday that the Obama Administration’s recently revealed surveillance programs have thwarted two major terrorist plots.
Snowden, whose full name is Edward Joseph Snowden, said he understands the risks of disclosing the information, but that he felt it was the right thing to do.
“I intend to ask for asylum from any countries that believe in free speech and oppose the victimization of global privacy,” Snowden told the Post. The Guardian was the first to publicly identify Snowden. Both media organizations made his name public with his consent.
Unless we don’t believe in classifying information any more, I think Snowden should be prosecuted.
In my opinion, people should be prosecuted for revealing classified information unless the clear purpose of the classification was an improper attempt to conceal embarrassing facts from the public. I’m not sure the phone metadata collection falls within such a category.
The collection and use of data such as DNA, phone records, and Internet traffic — information that could be useful to law enforcement and anti-terrorism officials, and could also invade your privacy — raises all kinds of interesting issues.
One potential distinction that I think may have gotten lost in this discussion is the difference between building a database and accessing the information inside it. Take existing databases that compile criminal histories as an example. Law enforcement collects these databases, but access to them is restricted and monitored. Similarly, law enforcement has databases with private information such as addresses and telephone numbers, and detectives may access them as part of a lawful investigation, but you’d lose your job quickly if you were discovered to have used them for private purposes. I don’t think most people are (or should be) terribly concerned by the existence of, and legitimate use of, such databases — as long as access to them is monitored and carried out for legitimate purposes.
The recently revealed database is different: it relates to phone call metadata, which has information about actual calls made, which is more intrusive information that I think most people assume is the type of information that cannot be accessed without a warrant.
I was startled when I first read about this program, because the reports indicated that the government was claiming the right to access my phone records (and yours) without any scrutiny whatsoever. As the original Guardian article stated:
The information is classed as “metadata”, or transactional information, rather than communications, and so does not require individual warrants to access.
Since the publication of that article, there have been claims that government officials are merely collecting the information in a database — but that access is monitored and controlled. Marc Ambinder:
One official likened the NSA’s collection authority to a van full of sealed boxes that are delivered to the agency. A court order, similar to the one revealed by the Guardian, permits the transfer of custody of the “boxes.” But the NSA needs something else, a specific purpose or investigation, in order to open a particular box.
If this is true, it’s a little different than the way the program was initially portrayed, which was a situation where all the boxes were open and no reason was required to root through them.
But at least two questions leap to mind: 1) what is the level of justification needed to open a box, and 2) what about the potential for abuse when the government has a database of such information?
The answer to question #1:
The chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, said the standard was “a reasonable, articulatable” suspicion, but did not go into details.
This raises more concerns than would be raised if access to the boxes were regulated by requiring a warrant. If the database merely kept phone metadata from being purged by phone companies, but a warrant were still necessary to access the information, the upshot of this action would merely be be to prevent the dissipation of potential evidence such as occurs when phone companies routinely purge their records after a period of time. But apparently a warrant is not required to access the information — once a court has authorized the information to be turned over to the government in the first place.
That is concerning, but does that mean that the procedures were improperly classified, such that disclosing this information should not be subject to prosecution? I’m not so sure.
Now let’s talk about question #2: the potential for abuse. Let’s put this in context. As I have pointed out before, the government collects all kinds of very intrusive data on its citizens: the IRS takes your Social Security Number, where you work and how much you get paid, and all sorts of other personal information . . . but ostensibly collects the information for legitimate purposes. Concerns arise with the government having such information, of course, but (while I disagree) the country has decided that having an income tax is worth the intrusion. The collection of a database of phone metadata creates a potential for abuse, just as collection of IRS data does, but if there are safeguards in place, there is no reason that such a collection should be more of a concern than the records kept by the IRS. To me, the key is the level of proof needed for the government to access the database.
Again, I don’t see the reason that these concerns necessarily mean that the classification of this information was improper, giving a “get out of jail free” card to the guy who broke the law to reveal this information to the public. I’ll go further: if we are going to take our classification of information seriously, the government should be examining whether even journalists can and should be prosecuted for revealing classified information that they know is classified — at least when that classification is critical to national security interests. For all the suspicion over Obama’s DoJ targeting James Rosen of Fox News, it may be legitimate to investigate whether he has violated any laws, if he knowingly published classified information, and that publication violated national security laws.
Of course, no matter how you feel about any of this, there is a tremendous irony in the way that Obama proclaimed himself against all of this, and then threw himself into surveillance like Bush on steroids. And it’s odd indeed that the New York Times collects Pulitzer Prizes for publishing classified information, and never seems to get investigated — while a Fox News reporter finds himself under potential criminal scrutiny for publishing a leak under a Democrat administration. There is hypocrisy enough to go around.
But as I learn more about these programs, I’m not convinced that the latest public revelations are clearly a Good Thing and that the leaker is a Great American Hero. On the contrary, as Jack Dunphy says: “President Obama has declared an end to the War on Terror, but the terrorists haven’t ended their war on us.” We need to be vigilant about having our civil liberties eroded — but if we still believe in having some information be classified, then the people who break those laws should be prosecuted.
Is there a distinction in principle between that which Edward Snowden has just done, and that which Bradley Manning did?
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:15 pmI believe the pipeline is full. Get us indictments of Holder for F&F, etc., and we’ll discuss Snowden.
Failing that, no dice.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:15 pmIt’s a matter of law, but I consider this to be on the traffic ticket level of wrongness.
So, yes, I support prosecuting him, because, as you say, it’s not clear that this was classified SOLELY to protect the admin, but won’t be particularly upset with it if he gets asylum in (say) Argentina, either…
The biggest issue I have is the surveillance of US citizens and its potential abuse by an admin that has shown not the LEAST concern with abusing its powers to attack its enemies. The hue and cry 40 years ago had Nixon been doing something as significant as the whole IRS-Tea Party thing (as opposed to the ridiculously minor-by-comparison efforts to simply BUG Democratic Party Headquarters in one single location that his minions ACTUALLY did) would STILL be echoing about.
The two-faced BS standards of the modern media are beyond shameful and despicable. If a GOP president had been abusing the IRS against Dem opposition groups you’d never hear the end of it until that PotUS was hounded out of office … and you’d still hear about it regularly for the next 10 years.
And that is why I consider this exposure to be on the “traffic ticket” level of error — the MEDIA damned sure isn’t going to do any job of that sort — If you can get away with paying the price, fine. I concur that they need to attempt to extract the price and punish the behavior, also, just as a matter of Rule of Law.
IGotBupkis, "Faeces Evenio, Mr. Holder?" (adea04) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:18 pmMy big takeaway from all this is that once again the CIA has hired themselves a real winner, in the Valerie Plame/Joseph Wilson mode. If this is the best they can do, let’s just close up that agency once and for all and start another one one with a brand-new cast of characters.
JVW (23867e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:18 pmScrew that, what about Sandy Berger’s PANTS?
😀
IGotBupkis, "Faeces Evenio, Mr. Holder?" (adea04) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:20 pmThere is no evidence whatsoever that the President was involved in, or even had knowledge of the IRS scandal. So Bupkis, you are diverting from the question raised by Patterico.
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:24 pmI can see a difference. Manning’s stated goal was to interfere in the government’s conduct of a war he didn’t support, Snowden’s is to protect the citizens. Manning’s conduct is treason, Snowden’s (although annoying as h–l to the PTB) is not. In my opinion. I think Snowden was wrong, but I’m not surprized at what he revealed, either. Kind of a “yawn”, actually, people didn’t know this?
htom (412a17) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:26 pmRegarding Obama’s changed views before and after his Presidency, the burden of responsibility changes ideology, which is a good thing.
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:29 pmSome Dhimmi on the Select House Intelligence Committee the other day said he had no knowledge, was never briefed on PRISIM.
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/09/rand-paul-ill-launch-class-action-suits-to-stop-prism/
Civil disobedience is a duty, and only a drooling imbecile would not blame the POTUS for the serial missteps of his administration.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:30 pmPRISM
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:32 pmJust as Manning did, Snowden released classified information, thus there is no distinction, in my view. Try not to let politics cloud your thinking.
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:34 pmThe court orders enabling the data retrieval are classified.
This is charging a citizen for infraction of double-secret probation.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:38 pm11. Said without a trace of self-awareness.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:39 pmManning’s releases compromised informants, Snowden’s reminds those who weren’t paying attention that the USA government is snooping on everyone, with minor details of how. Different.
htom (412a17) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:40 pmhttp://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/guardian-reporter-glenn-greenwald-blasts-calls-for-leak-prosecutions/
Greenwald on This Week. His point is that the citizens of the USA have the right to decide if this is the kind of country we want to live in and the way we want to live our lives. If we do–fine. But let’s at least discuss it as a society. If the NSA is lying to congress or misleading congress is that not an issue to be considered?
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:41 pmRegarding Obama’s changed views before and after his Presidency, the burden of responsibility changes ideology, which is a good thing
I’d buy that if the politician you were describing did not lamely consider a video posted to Youtube as the root of the murders in Behghazi. And if that politician (and the flunkies around him), even when insider information about the Boston bombers was relayed by Russia, still didn’t do diddly-squat.
The federal government is becoming so corrupt, philosophically (hello, Nidal Hasan!) and otherwise (heartwarming that you’re releasing confidential financial info, IRS!), that to treat it today in the same way that might have made sense decades ago is moving closer and closer to the analogy of giving one’s trust and respect to the average police department in, say, Mexico.
Mark (bb410c) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:42 pmMr. “I will do everything in my power to get to the bottom of the Benghazi coverup”.
http://www.redstate.com/nancymace/2013/06/07/lindsey-grahams-world/
We have reached the point, perhaps, when the Law protects the Lawless and no one else.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:43 pmBut as I learn more about these programs, I’m not convinced that the latest public revelations are clearly a Good Thing and that the leaker is a Great American Hero.
About the same as I feel. Kim (the leaker to Rosen) is not a hero in any sense, he leaked information for what appears to be personal gratification. Manning was worse, he leaked indiscriminately without concern for the effects. Snowden is a little better, he leaked for political reasons (like Manning) but he was discriminate in what he leaked and was concerned with the effects.
The worry I have with Snowden is that he might be setting himself up as a martyr while planning to sell the secrets he knows. Hong Kong is still a somewhat free city but it is also under the control of China, it is not a place where you want someone who has just left the NSA to be.
one of many (131bc0) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:43 pmIs it pertinent that the NSA has no bona fides?
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/252236/
A program to stop terrorism or to stop journalists and legislators and the blind plebe who encounters a nut?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:49 pmAccording to what I’ve read, Elissa, Congress had been informed on this issue. But I agree with your point.
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:54 pmgramps2,
Do you find it at all interesting that all of this—including what your pinup twink Bradley Manning did—is happening on Obama’s watch ?
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:57 pmUm, just to clarify which scandal and which intelligence leak we are talking about…
This has nothing to do with the monitoring of AP reporter calls looking for a leak about some story about NK,
but rather the story that the NSA has the megadata bank of all phone calls stored in case they have reason to mine it for specific patterns or contacts of specific numbers,
right?
In some ways I’m not sure I would even call this a leak, in the sense that I am not at all surprised they are doing this. After all we know they are already actively looking at any calls made out of the country to numbers that are linked to terrorists, right?
As I said elsewhere, once we started doing everything electronically over interchanges of some kind, this information is out there for the picking by whoever has the desire and ability to do it. I’m thinking the only way it isn’t is if the software and hardware are configured to explicitly “shred” the data as soon as it is stored off network in a sit that needs it, such as phone records for billing purposes, but I don’t suppose that has been done.
So the question is as above, what kind of society do we want and what limits on networked data do you want. Decide now pre-ObamaCare. What, so and so was pregnant 20 yrs ago but has no children? So and so was treated for what 15 years ago?
And with the Harry Reid “didn’t pay taxes” version, “I’ve been told by a source that…”.
I know somebody who once was thinking of running for public office somewhere, and was told by the powers that be in the area that if this person tried, they would make said person’s life hell.
Sometimes it does almost seem like there is a mutually assured destruction pact among various political folk, I won’t destroy you as long as you don’t destroy me.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:00 pmI want to add to my earlier post that what the “leaker” did is not that he divulged specific secret plans (such as for an important operation like D-Day, or Bin Laden capture etc.) which would have a set beginning and end and an obvious success or failure depending on the level of secrecy. What this leaker and Greenwald did (assuming the allegations are true) is leak to average Americans how our own government has gone way beyond what many reasonable citizens of both parties think is tolerable and acceptable if we truly believe in the words of our constitution.
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:01 pmLike I said earlier, Elissa, when you are the responsible one, you do what you have to do, taking into account all the ramifications. The Patriot Act was generated under Bush. What was your opinion of it at that time? Or is this another example of: Bush OK, Obama not OK?
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:09 pmIt’s time for someone to leak what Obama was doing on the night of the Benghazi attack.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:11 pmKeep reading. At least one Congressman say he’s never heard of it.
It’s so cute someone either believes that or thinks anyone else will.
Rob Crawford (49918b) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:20 pmWait till Holder demands that China return Snowden to the US for prosecution! Oh, the irony.
Patricia (be0117) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:26 pmSome things have to be kept secret at times for awile, but the default position and presumption should be openness. All levls and functions of government, including law enforcement. There’s tension between those absolutes, but there should be.
G Joubert (f2d783) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:26 pmFor you, “gramps”. (and everybody else) Please note the link’s network and the commentator and the president’s words on tape. Watch the whole thing and then note the host’s conclusion. “Obama lied. He is a liar.”
http://current.com/shows/the-young-turks/videos/cenks-response-to-the-nsa-cell-phone-scandal-barack-obama-is-a-liar
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:27 pmGramps2,
It is so bizarre that you “know” what evidence exists or doesn’t exist pertaining to the I.ntimidate R.epublicans S.ervice.
How would you know what evidence exists if the investigation has only just begun ?
Lois Lerner took the fifth because information she has would incriminate her.
We need to find out what that incriminating information is. And since you’re so certain Barry O had zero knowledge of it, then you should welcome a full investigation so that the American people can be certain that it was only a couple rogue agents in Cincy who cooked up the I.R.S. strategy of targeting the President’s publicly stated political enemies.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:29 pmTu quoque is the last argument of scoundrels, Gramps. Most of us here had trouble with the Patriot Act, few of us imagined that any President would do with it what Obama has done.
Chuck Bartowski (ad7249) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:36 pmMr. Snowden thank you for your sacrificings what you did it was very brave and also noble
thank you also for a timely reminder of what somebody what opposes fascism looks like
like an american kid is what they look like, a mischievous kind intelligent gentle kid
god bless you Mr. Snowden
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:42 pmThe problem is that our Judicial system is so corrupt that they Judge would be able to decide if he can present “preserving and defending the Constitution of the United States” as his defense. The amount of information that Judges conceal from juries is astounding, and the idea that some career liar…err Lawyer… gets to tell defendents what they cannot say in court is tyranny.
If he exposed a systemic violation of the 4th amendment, and did not recklessly expose information (as Manning did, got people killed), then it should be up to a jury that has ALL the information to decide if he is a hero or traitor.
Smarty (273307) — 6/9/2013 @ 3:57 pmAlso, Bush screwed up by creating a system that a scoundrel could take advantage of. Just as he did not see how his affirmative action hire in Colin Powell was going to bite him, he could not see a true tyrant getting into office. He didn’t understand what happens when amateur Marxism meets the Chicago way.
If Bush really cared he would speak up right now and explain what he did and how he thinks it was abused- his silence is disgusting.
Smarty (273307) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:00 pmOn one hand I thought tracking calls to known terrorists out of the country was kind of a slam dunk, and did not understand why there was a fuss.
To those of you who know technology better than I, what would have to be done to prevent such metadata from being collectible in the first place?
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:13 pmAssuming there is data out there that we don’t want anyone being able to access, how preventable is it?
i’m pretty sure Bush cares Mr. Smarty
really
he cares a lot I bet
he was a very pro-freedom president
impressively so, in context of the fascist ascendance what followed in his wake
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:13 pmGWB is doing what Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton should have done upon leaving office and that is remove themselves from public view, i.e., the scene. Goddam democrats anyway.
Colonel Haiku (61a8ce) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:15 pmI try to ignore Perry2.0 as much as possible but I couldn’t let this one go. Snowden said in his interview he decided not to leak while working at CIA for two reasons, but the first was that he didn’t want to endanger people’s lives.
Manning, and consequently Assange, leaked so much information so indiscriminately the did endanger people’s lives. Such as the names of individual Afghans who were cooperating with the US. Some of these people have been killed by the Taliban. It is not possible to say if the Taliban learned of these peoples identities via Wikileaks but clearly Manning endangered their lives by revealing their lives given the known fact the Taliban kills what they call collaborators to discourage others. Obviously Manning demonstrated reckless disregard for these peoples’ lives.
One might argue that Assange demonstrated slightly more regard for people’s lives because he claims to have attempted to redact information that could identify individuals, but that really doesn’t work for him because given the volume of information he posted to his site he couldn’t and didn’t redact all the identities.
As an aside his attempts to redact some of the information that information while revealing volumes of the exact same type of information is why I believe he could be successfully prosecuted under Title 18 USC section 793(d) (the Espionage Act of 1917) while Rosen could not. 793(d) says in part that “the possessor” of national defense information must meet one essential criteria regarding his knowledge of that information to have committed a crime:
Rosen stated in the article that caused the DoJ to “brand” him “a criminal” (Holder’s words in quotes) that he didn’t report specific parts of the intelligence that had been revealed to him because it could have compromised sources and methods. And indeed his article contained no such information, so it would have been hard to argue that Rosen had a reason to believe the information he did publish would harm the US or give a foreign power an advantage.
On the other hand Assange redacted some information that revealed sources, but went ahead and published all information that revealed sources, it’s a lot easier to argue that he had reason to believe that information would cause injury to the US and/or give a foreign power an advantage. After all, getting sources killed is a personal tragedy for each individual source and their kin, but it also harms national defense unless one can contend the US military develops sources for no reason at all.
If anyone could assert something that nonsensical, Perry2.0 is it.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:17 pmHe’s loves freedom, but he defects to China, well it’s closest satrap, right on the heels of the Post’s reports about China’s hack?
narciso (3fec35) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:18 pmThese assh*le democrats blaming Bush and congress for creating an “imperial presidency”, as if Obama’s hands are tied, he was forced to expand the programs and the reach.
Colonel Haiku (198f23) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:19 pmwhere else could he go and be safe Mr. narciso
you saw what the fascist piggies did to that guy what posted a silly inconsequential youtube
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:22 pmRush is right. The federal government has staged a coup d’etat and overthrown the Constitution and our republic. I have been saying this for years!
A government that can do what the government is currently doing can do anything it wants, any time it wants, to anyone it wants.
The states need to aggressively use the 9th and 10th amendments to rein in the federal government. The states need to consider using the powers they have to fundamentally alter the federal government by limiting its powers through whatever means available.
The federal government ought to be about 30 percent of its current size, be limited in scope, have no ability to tax income, have term limits on Congress and the executive, and the bloated bureaucracy and the onerous, destructive regulations they impose ought to be done away with.
America is rapidly becoming a police state, and the actions of the TSA on a daily basis, and the Boston police department during the search for the Tsarnaev brothers should serve as ample proof of this.
We need to take back our government and the two establishment parties are determined to keep put us into serfdom.
Now, whether Snowden ought to be prosecuted, is a good question. If you break a law, you should expect to be charged. But if you break a law that may well lead to all manner of unconstitutional behavior by the federal government, and the actions you reveal may themselves be legally questionable, it doesn’t mean his fellow citizens must convict him.
WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:26 pmuh oh looks like Mr. Snowden is in a little trouble at work
he’s probably gonna get written up it looks like
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:34 pmWhat disturbs me are the folks online who don’t mind giving up “privacy” for safety…and many of them are on the Left. Of course, they would mind it very much if the Preezy had an “R” after his or her name, but there you go.
Check out this:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/07/tech/web/nsa-internet-privacy/
And the twitter account referenced. Chilling.
People don’t want to face the truth: freedom times security equals a constant. The more freedom, the less security. And the converse, of course.
What are we willing to give up, and what do we truly get in exchange? I wish that folks would think about that; I’m not sure that many do (check out the folks in the article who didn’t even know what “NSA” stands for).
Simon Jester (156079) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:35 pm#31 Bush knew. Remember “Despite pledges by President George W. Bush and American intelligence officials to the contrary, hundreds of US citizens overseas have been eavesdropped on as they called friends and family back home…” (by the NSA) ~Oct 2008.
tifosa (a4a177) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:39 pmWhat you don’t understand Patterico is this…the NSA is NOT allowed to COLLECT on US citizens.
PERIOD.
It doesn’t matter if they access the data or not. They can’t even COLLECT it. It’s illegal. End of story. What they’ve been doing is against the law. They know it. Congress knows it. The President knows it.
And if it ever gets challenged in court, SCOTUS will know it too. Whether or not they have the balls to say it in a ruling is another matter. They don’t exactly have stellar track record of repudiating tyranny.
Bets (717964) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:42 pm==Bush knew++
tifosa–Obama won the presidency because–Booooosh! The most transparent administration eveh was promised. I assume you did not bother to watch the Cenk Uygur piece above or you could not possibly have posted what you did @45 in good conscience.
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:51 pmI will add that Manning is enlisted. His crimes fall first under the Uniform Code Of Military Justice to which he assented in his enlistment.
Snowden is just a citizen and can be punished and protected by our normal corpus of law such as it is at the moment.
luagha (73938c) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:54 pmI saw the orig. but Thanks Elissa. I don’t just link Cenk when it’s convenient. 🙂
tifosa (a4a177) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:59 pmPS Lotsa good TYT out there, ya know:)
tifosa (a4a177) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:00 pmIs there a distinction in principle between that which Edward Snowden has just done, and that which Bradley Manning did?
Comment by Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:15 pm
— You just have to keep topping yourself, don’t you?
Icy (0884e8) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:06 pmHmmm, in Hong Kong. Seeking asylum from …. etc. I smell a rat.
glenn (647d76) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:08 pmI’ve always wanted to go to Hong Kong but it’s very expensive plus i get very conflicted about travel cause I tend to do things at my own pace and I figure you would need at least a month to do Hong Kong justice
I don’t know about the rat situation
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:14 pmAmerica is rapidly becoming a police state
“Police state” in some ways at least implies a government that has reassuring skills in providing legitimate security for its citizens. But the US bureaucracy has become, or is becoming, so twisted and corrupt, that “tin-foil” paranoia about what it may (or may not) do with the information it has sneakily gleaned no longer seems like an overreaction.
It’s like a jigsaw puzzle whose pieces (ie, Benghazi, IRS, Holder and the media, NSA, Boston bombings and Russian suspicions, a Hasan-ized, ACLU-ized US military) all have to be connected together to finally see what its complete image will reveal. The words “Argentina/Mexico of the North” or “World’s Biggest Banana Republic” may materialize.
Mark (bb410c) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:16 pmBets @ 46 is 100% right.
Everyone who’s been in a military command with an intelligence mission knows you can not collect information on US persons at all except for certain narrow exceptions for limited purposes. For instance a command must have personnel records for administrative purposes. Except for those very narrow exceptions you can not collect, retain, or disseminate information on US persons. Each of those three steps is a separate violation of intelligence oversight regulations. Regulations that are derived from US statutes.
Domestic law enforcement can and must maintain databases on US persons, but intelligence agencies can not. This is why of the five armed services the US Coast Guard can have a database that includes US persons, as it is the nation’s maritime law enforcement agency. But the US Navy can not; it has no domestic law enforcement mission but it does have an intelligence mission. NSA likewise has a foreign intelligence mission only, not a law enforcement mission.
This is where the problem lies. They are collecting and retaining a database on US persons. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re actually analyzing that data. They can’t have that data in the first place. Some members of Congress understand this central issue as well, and why I think DNI Clapper and NSA director lied to Congress in their testimony.
Wyden’s question was specifically about collection. Clapper said NSA does not. At all. But if they have a database then they obviously do. And those structures he referred to are called laws.
Then there’s the NSA director’s testimony.
Intel agencies are prohibited from collecting and retaining this information. It’s why Clapper and Alexander denied they’re even collecting it except “inadvertently” or “unwittingly” in rare circumstances. The court order and information about PRISM indicates they’re doing exactly what they testified they’re not doing, deliberately and on a massive scale.
It is a very big deal. This doesn’t mean I don’t think Snowden shouldn’t be prosecuted. He should. but then I also am leaning toward the idea Snowden, Alexander and others who went way beyond their statutory authority with this surveillance program should be as well.
And I’m not the only one who thinks they exceeded their statutory authority. The author of the Patriot Act, Sen. Sensenbrunner (R-WI), says so as well. Here’s a link to a letter he wrote to Holder last week when this story broke.
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2013/06/patriot.pdf
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:20 pm*…I also am leaning toward the idea
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:23 pmSnowdenClapper, Alexander and others who went way beyond their statutory authority…*That is not at all what “police state” implies…
WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:25 pmRegarding Obama’s changed views before and after his Presidency, the burden of responsibility changes ideology, which is a good thing.
Comment by Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/9/2013 @ 2:29 pm
— If what you’re saying is that the ideology under which he campaigned was irresponsible, then I’m right there with ya.
Icy (0884e8) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:40 pmI figured this out back in the days of ECHELON. NSA spies on everyone not in the USA (the Xians), and the Xians spy on everyone in the USA. Then they trade data. Nobody spies on their own people, so no such laws are broken. Foreign spies, who controls those? Not us, everyone says.
htom (412a17) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:47 pm46, 48, 55. I wonder, on consideration, if Rico isn’t pulling a fast one.
How can the prosecution prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the government hasn’t behaved both illegally and contra the Bill of Rights worthy of being called out and Snowden must be considered a defacto whistleblower and afforded all due protections?
How many male WASPs would believe anything the prosecution has to say? Look at Clapper a subtard, liar, and hapless fool.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:51 pmhtom, not in this case apparently. Even if half of what we’ve heard is true then NSA is deliberately collecting and retaining information on US persons, which is a no-no right there.
But they are also disseminating the information to their counterpart in Britain, the GCHQ. I’m not familiar with their laws and regulations but I seriously doubt they have any against analyzing data collected on US persons.
So somebody is looking at the data. And no doubt sharing with US intelligence and law enforcement what they find. So all these reassurances we’re getting from the administration about how they’re not violating our privacy do not reassure.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:56 pmI meant to add that while I think this case is different from what htom was describing, he did bring up an excellent point.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:57 pm42. I guess I was just filling in WarEagles whitespace.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:59 pmelissa, that video shows that this request to the FISA court was made 10 days after the Boston bombing. How on earth would this surveillance have prevented it?? They barely took action after a telephone call from Russia about the men and then ignored them, even when they flew back to Chechnya! When they were implicated in a triple murder!
They ignored them because they were Muslim. And they want a big computer to absolve them of responsibility in future attacks.
Mainly, IMHO, they want a big computer to spy on tea partiers and other enemies.
Patricia (be0117) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:07 pmI suspect they’ve been deliberately collecting all of the data, without looking to see who the people are on either end of the connection. Thus, not collecting data about Americans, which would require looking to see and remembering who it was. Is IMSI 12345.67890.12345 an American? Only by looking do we know. If we discover it was, we can ignore that datum.
I don’t know if I trust them to do this any more, but I don’t see anything anyone can do about this.
htom (412a17) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:13 pmPerry is still cowardly hiding behind yet another name?
JD (20406c) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:22 pmIf he broke the law, he should be prosecuted. But he did a good thing.
JD (20406c) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:23 pmI believe that he should be prosecuted for violating his secrecy oath.
I also believe that in defense a claim to have exposed clear violations of human rights or civil liberties (e.g. gulags, death squads, indiscriminate tapping of communications, crimes under color of authority, etc) should be allowed. In some cases such a defense should be sufficient to acquit, in other cases it should mitigate the sentence.
This case brings to a cusp the 40-year-old argument (see US v Miller (1976)) regarding 3rd party data and the 4th Amendment. I truly believe any systemic account an individual or business has with a 3rd party which is needed or advantageous in conducting normal business (e.g. a checking account or data service) or other widespread activity should be accorded the same level of protection as if the 3rd party was the person or business entity themselves. IOW it should require a warrant, served as per the 4th Amendment, based upon probable cause and stating the objects of the search.
An inconvenience argument isn’t very interesting.
And if it is REALLY necessary to ride roughshod over that (the ticking bomb scenario), it should also be subject to prosecution with the necessity argument an allowed attempt at defense.
Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:27 pmIf he broke the law, he should be prosecuted. But he did a good thing.
and he might will inspire others to take a hard look at the cogs and whirligigs what are hidden from you and me
the mysterious machinery what makes that faint but horrifying purring noise what we’re all hearing
the humming engine of fascism, oppressive and arbitrary and inexorable
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:28 pmIn short, reagdless of the outcome of this person’s case, we may need a “we really mean it” addendum to several parts of the bill of rights (1,2,4,5,9 & 10 come to mind).
Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:29 pmThey think we’re all stupid sheep, Patricia. But at least some of their usual media sycophants are starting to connect the dots and feeling more comfortable about pointing out the lies and open hypocrisy of this administration.
Even if some in congress believe this type of data harvesting and mass surveillance of innocent citizens is necessary for “national security”, that does not explain why they think it must be kept top secret and even the fact of its existence hidden from the public. If anything, one would think that if it was legit data collection and wholly legal they would want people to be aware big brother is watching.
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:30 pmi don’t understand this idea about prosecuting him though
we can’t prosecute him in absentia can we?
it’s like Mr. newrouter says I think
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:30 pmNot the same thing, tifosa. There’s a difference between an intercept of a call going to a foreign country where the apparatus to intercept is outside of the US and logging domestic calls.
Please restrict your comments to intellectually honest statement free of argument fallacies.
Chuck Bartowski (ad7249) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:36 pmOk. So do they make government intrusion strength Lifelock?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:38 pmI understand that’s what you’re arguing. But I don’t understand how you can be so confident when the collection appears to have been done pursuant to statutes and court orders.
Patterico (9c670f) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:50 pmI think that the program may not quite be what it was initially portrayed as being.
Patterico (9c670f) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:50 pmIf the NSA is lying to congress or misleading congress is that not an issue to be considered?
If the Congress can’t satisfactorily deal with this situation, then not only do we need a new Executive Branch, but a Congress to boot.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:52 pm“I intend to ask for asylum from any countries that believe in free speech and oppose the victimization of global privacy,”….
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:55 pmand that’s why he went to HK (CN), bacause they have such strong democratic principles.
OTOH, a lot of “wet work” can pass for just your average accident in Hong Kong, and environs.
hong kong is a cool place to live I can tell just from this one pic
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130502152627-rubber-duck-in-hong-kong-1-horizontal-gallery.jpg
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 6:58 pmI don’t think “oversight” (whether judicial or congressional) means even close to what it used to.
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:00 pmThis case should be decided like the case of the lady who beat up her boyfriend for singing the Thrift Shop song I think.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:02 pmComment by WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 6/9/2013 @ 4:26 pm
It might be time for the Several States to dust-off Article V, and rein in this Leviathan.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:02 pmJust don’t get coffee at the Hong Kong Starbucks, happyfeet.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:05 pmThat is not at all what “police state” implies…
Well, obviously. But ultra-liberal Venezuela or Argentina can be labeled a variation of a “police state,” and yet street crime is rampant in those nations. That scenario is what I’m thinking of when envisioning the US as becoming a version of such places. I think of this society regressing with a big, overreaching, meddlesome, nosy government bureaucracy, full of dishonesty and graft, but somewhat more in keeping with a larger version of what’s found in dysfunctional Chicago or Detroit.
I imagine cops harassing innocent people in order to get bribes, functionaries in faceless government agencies being both lazy and overbearing towards citizens, political figureheads barking out Bloomberg-type of idiocy to the populace, corroded public schools with a loony-left-totalitarian way of education (sort of a milder version of Mao’s Little Red Book), while all around such a steaming pile is a crumbling society, including criminals milking the system for all its worse.
Mark (bb410c) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:05 pmComment by Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 5:20 pm
I would not be surprised that there is an EO hanging about somewhere that (as the Brits love to say) seconds the NSA to DHS, thereby allowing the collection of domestic intelligence data.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:07 pmi saw that Mr. nk but i didn’t see the big deal
it’s one of those things where if I were in HK i would go find that starbucks and order a triple venti nonfat latte and take a pic on my phone and text it to my little brudder
but my real life isn’t that glamorous
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:10 pmIt is obvious that Clapper out-right LIED to Congress.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:13 pmThat being so, it behooves him to cut a deal NOW with this Congress.
With a change of Administrations, he could be subject to a recall to active duty, and prosecuted under the UCMJ for his transgressions.
htom @65, I can’t agree with your analysis. This is how broadly the court order for the information from Verizon was written.
Undoubtedly the court order is boilerplate as it included this when specifying exactly what telephony metadata Verizon Business Network Services was to provide.
Verizon Business Network Services provides land line communications, not mobile. So it certainly looks like the other providers received exactly the same demands.
There is no way anyone can claim that they weren’t knowingly collecting data on Americans. Obviously they were.
Clapper understands that. So does Sen. Wyden (D-OR). That’s why when Wyden asked Clapper if NSA was collecting any type of data at all on millions of Americans, Clapper tried to talk about targeting. And Wyden kept repeating his question. Because targeting isn’t the standard. By asking for all of a provider’s telephony metadata the government was knowingly collecting information on US persons. There’s no way around that fact. NSA is supposed to distinguish between US persons and foreign nationals before collecting, retaining, and disseminating that information. As you note they made no effort to do so. But that isn’t a defense. The analogy to what NSA did is the CIA can’t send an undercover agent into a Virginia mosque and claim it’s OK because they didn’t make any effort to look to see who was who and remember who it was. (I can see the CIA doing this not because they particularly want to spy on Americans but because their too lazy and risk averse to try it in Iran or Pakistan; so much easier to just drive over from Langley.)
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:13 pmYeah, Clapper claimed that they didn’t “wittingly” target/collect data on Americans.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:16 pmLike so much of what this administration does, it seems they only got half way there.
You’d probably have some pickled python to go with it too, you sybarite.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:20 pmyou only live the once is my understanding
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:24 pmthis thread is getting kind of boring there’s not any real debate going on
i thought this was supposed to be controversial or something
I loved this from the guardian article
that’s very fractured fairy tales I think
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:33 pmI can’t speak for Bets, but what makes me confident of my view of the situation is among other things the back and forth between Wyden and Clapper in that March hearing well before this story broke.
Here’s a YouTube video of the exchange.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJmGjs
Wyden is obviously troubled by what NSA is doing. It’s important to note that Wyden is on the Senate Intelligence Committee, he’s been briefed about NSA surveillance although in what level of detail I don’t know (I doubt Obama’s version that his committee has been thoroughly briefed) and his efforts over the past couple of years convinces me he knows NSA has exceeded its statutory authority.
The problem is Congress can provide no effective oversight over the NSA because what it does is so highly classified. The House and Senate intel committees may know in greater or lesser detail what NSA is up to, but they can’t convey that to other members.
The fact that Graham and McCain approve of what the NSA is doing doesn’t mean a thing to me because they’ll trade the Bill of Rights for expanded powers for defense-related agencies every time.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:33 pmI suspect that it says they’re not to knowingly collect data about Americans. Not knowing that a particular call is from or to an American, they can collect it.
htom (412a17) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:38 pmYeah, if there’s any serious punishment associated with this kid blowing this whistle, there shouldn’t be, people pretty much agree.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:46 pmI can’t allow the US government to destroy privacy and basic liberties.
say it out loud it feels really good
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:49 pmi want a t-shirt
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:50 pmHe is not a hero of any sort. Perhaps if he willingly gave himself up to the authorities for breaching the many Non-Disclosure agreements he is sure to have signed his concern for American citizens may be a little more compelling. Anyone dealing with classified information signs these agreements and know the penalties.
vor2 (4b000a) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:56 pmRobert Novak published the top secret plans Carter had in place that in short planned to cede some of the European territory to the Soviets if they attacked. The war plans were changed because of that leak.
Good book written a couple of years ago was “Top Secret” by Dana Priest and William Arkin. Much of the information about the ISP collections was noted in that book.
I know things are becoming quite unhinged when I read a piece in Mother Jones (linked at the drudgereport), no less, and can’t be even a bit cynical or suspicious about what they’re trying to relay. Even if that super-liberal publication were pointing out the exact same thing about a Republican White House, I’d be no less fully astonished and appalled by an attempt of an presidential administration (via its Attorney General, etc) to keep a court opinion (and not, for example, sleuthing secrets straight from the CIA) out of the public eye.
By itself, the following is bad enough. But when combining it with things like the debacle of the IRS, this now has truly reached the point of the absurd and grotesque.
Mark (bb410c) — 6/9/2013 @ 7:57 pmPutting all the top secret and Constitutional legality and FISA and congressional oversight issues aside for a second–isn’t it kind of really worrisome that a mere “contract employee” who was on the job for like 3 months knows about this and has access to files? Are “contract employees” screened and monitored closely enough that a real enemy of the state could not also get his/her hands on this data? (I’d have to guess not.)
elissa (b7e169) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:01 pmhe’s ex-CIA he has clearance and such plus the guardian says he’d been around the NSA for the last four years at various other employers
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:04 pmHe had a history going back several years with the Army and CIA so he already had been approved for clearances in the past – that is why most contractors are former military or civil service.
vor2 (4b000a) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:05 pmme I’m on Team Edward!
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:05 pmHe flunked Special Forces Q course, was an NSA security guard, was by his own admission with the CIA for only two years,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:09 pmI’m sure Snowden is aware he’ll be prosecuted, hence he’s in the SAR of China. The Chinese are unlikely to extradite so wise move on his part.
He seems like a hero to me. Count me down with team happyfeet et al.
Funny he had to flee to China to escape tyranny, but these days I don’t doubt it.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:09 pmIf everything is classified, effectively nothing is classified for long — too many people have to be involved.
Obviously there are some necessary state secrets. The fact the government is intercepting (or easily can with infrastructure in place to do just that) the content of nearly every communication someone sends online doesn’t seem to fall in that category. One assumes that this blog post and comments are archived by the government — itself pretty creepy — but also your IMs, file transfers, emails, and even audio/video calls.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:15 pmMaybe, although I doubt it;
RT @RexBrynen: @JanCBS It wouldn’t be unusual for a contractor with previous IC IT experience and a TS SCI to have “that kind of access”
narciso (3fec35) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:22 pmI want edward glasses i’m due for new ones
right now i have the all-clear super sexy sarah palin glasses
but I bet I would rock the edward glasses and people will say now there goes a pikachu what is profoundly concerned with privacy and basic liberties
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:27 pmThe Shadow Factory By James Banford has the specifics on what is happening at major ISPs that relates to this story. Top Secret in America touches on it but not specifics.
vor2 (4b000a) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:28 pmSure.
What Manning did got many human intel sources killed. What Snowden did informed Americans their online communications are being monitored and stored, even their private one-to-one communications, even where privacy policies assure them otherwise.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:29 pmI should add the Sensenbrunner letter makes me confident I have the correct understanding of the real problem with what NSA is doing. Although the letter applies solely to the Verizon court order I believe what it says about the Patriot Act applies to PRISM as well. Here’s the link again.
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2013/06/patriot.pdf
My understanding of FISA is that NSA can conduct surveillance against foreign powers and their domestic agents. The Patriot Act expanded the definition of foreign powers to include non-state actors such as terrorist groups. Obviously in nearly all cases their domestic agents will be US persons who are either citizens or in the country legally. But the Patriot Act places restrictions on what information the government can collect for foreign intelligence purposes. Sensenbrunner lays those out on the first page of his letter, and in the second he chastises the DoJ for misleading Congress to believe “…that the Administration was using the business records provision sparingly and for specific materials. The recently released FISA order, however, could not have been drafted more broadly. …I do not believe the released FISA order is consistent with the requirements of Patriot Act. How could the phone records of so many innocent Americans be relevant to an authorized investigation as required by the Act?”
When I discussed intelligence oversight regulations and mentioned that military and civilian intelligence organizations can only collect, retain, and disseminate information on US persons under specific exemptions and for limited purposes, I should have mentioned per my understanding of FISA that the NSA can do so if it can show the FISA court it has good cause to believe a US person is relevant to an authorized national security investigation.
Given what Holder was willing to tell the judge things he says now he doesn’t believe were true to get the secret Rosen search warrant, who knows what they told the FISA court to get these broad orders. And given that even Democrats in Congress and basically called Obama a liar for saying how everyone was briefed on the phone records surveillance, essentially backing Sensenbrunner when he claims DoJ was actually keeping Congress in the dark, I don’t believe either the legislative or judicial branches of government were providing effective oversight over these programs. How could they?
This is why I’m confident that NSA was way out of bounds when it was conducting surveillance on US persons.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:38 pmIt sounds to me like they hired someone with great ethics and courage.
It’s the rare combination of the two together that screwed the intelligence services over.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:40 pmpompous congresswhore tries to get his sorkin on and
well
ymmv
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:44 pmRead the Sensenbrunner letter. The opposite is the case. They can collect the data against specific targets under certain circumstances, not willy nilly collect information on ever US citizen and legal resident.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:45 pmI’m not. You’re the one who’s being overly simplistic either. The Nazis and the Soviets had tons of classified info too, but their regimes were engaged in tyranny and revealing it, while illegal in the extreme, was an act of nobility and courage.
Unfortunately, America is well down the path to tyranny, and Edward Snowden did far more than his part to try and slow this headlong march.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:45 pm*
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:46 pmeitherIs there a difference between what Snowden did and what the leaker of the warrantless wiretapping under Bush did?
How about the leaker of the SWIFT program?
Patterico (9c670f) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:52 pmDidnt the so-called warrantless wiretapping involve at least one person not in the US?
JD (b63a52) — 6/9/2013 @ 8:56 pmThe NSA programs in question, in particular PRISM, are a much broader assault on liberties so in that sense, yes. But I see your point in that the two programs you mentioned were at least similar in stated goals if not scope.
But that said, I’m glad warrantless wiretapping at least was disclosed to the public.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:00 pmAnd good point.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:00 pmYou have got to be kidding. Chinese dissidents receive their Nobel Peace Prizes in absentia because they’re in Chinese prisons. With every member of non-state approved religious sects such as the Falun Gong the Chinese security apparatus can round up. And I guess you forgot the story of this guy who’s story is by no means atypical:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-04-27/world/35450829_1_escapes-house-arrest-chen-guangcheng-activist
Recent reports out of China indicate the Chinese secret police are targeting his relatives for special attention. Such as beating them up in the streets. When his brother reported a beating he took to the regular police he saw the car his assailants had been using parked at the police station. Naturally when the beat cops figured it out they didn’t pursue the case.
Snowden fled to China to escape tyranny? Hardly. And I’d hold off on the hero talk because he may have been working for the PRC. Remember this?
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-20/world/39385755_1_chinese-hackers-court-orders-fbi
Gee, I wonder who might have tipped them off to do things the way they did? I dunno, maybe some guy who fled to China at the end of May perhaps?.
As an aside this is why I say that even if the Patriot Act had never been written we’d still be in the exact same position we’re in now. NSA would still have developed the same information capture and storage capabilities they have now, and would have abused those capabilities under some other twisted interpretation of FISA.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:02 pmthe piggy fascist american spy pansies are already ramping up the “Edward is a Chinese spy” meme
i don’t believe them
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:02 pmLess reason, much less in the case of SWIFT, for ordinary Americans to be butthurt that such programs existed. I, for one, at the time, hoped they existed.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:03 pmNote the date on the Post piece,Steve, the same day Snowden flew to Hong Kong?
narciso (3fec35) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:04 pmChina is a tyranny.
But to escape prosecution for Snowden’s leak, which I believe was a service to the public, he had to flee to China. For reasons of self-interest, the Chinese aren’t going to imprison him.
So the irony is the he fled to a long-established tyranny to escape prosecution by an up-and-coming one.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:07 pmMicrosoft’s Institute for Advanced Technology in Governments
sweet jesus what the hell is that
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:07 pm*that
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:07 pmProbably, if not now then a few years later. Technology itself is the death-knell to liberty. That is why I referred to Snowden as having “slowed” not “stopped” tyranny’s march.
I’d like to be wrong on this, but I don’t see how freedom survives.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:11 pmWhich is a depressing thought. If anyone has any ideas on how I’m wrong about that(technology leading to inevitable tyranny), by all means share.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:15 pmYou’re putting the cart before the horse. A tyrannical government employs the means it possesses. A low-tech place, like Cuba, has Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, with agents and informants on every block, for example. Restrain the government, use the technology to inform your fellow citizens and keep it restrained.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:22 pmI think you’ll see that the average citizen (with the exception of extending personhood to more people, which is of course great) has much less actual freedom now than in the past. This overarching bureaucracy is only possible because of technology, especially information technology, and now increasingly surveillance technology (not to mention the overwhelming weapons superiority the government would have over any potential uprising).
I don’t see how this trend reverses. I hope you’re right, but I doubt it.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:26 pmWhy, as a matter of fact I did. Not that I think he fled to China because of the article. But it’s more than coincidence. He no doubt caught wind NSA was looking into the leak within the same timeframe NSA was going public about the leak.
And Mr. Feets @122, believe or disbelieve what you want, but Snowden’s explanation for why he chose Hong Kong?
It’s complete and utter horse****.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:28 pmPut it this way:
If there was this much lack of liberty and surveillance in 1870, there would totally be a citizen revolt.
But now in 2013, with the huge military surveillance state, even those so inclined act and speak meekly — because they wouldn’t have a hope of prevailing and they bloody well know it.
Now I’m not saying they should revolt, especially when they would have no chance … but the fact that it’s essentially impossible now means people have to just accept the surveillance state and hope the ballot box will somehow be enough, despite most people feeling Congress is completely unresponsive to their needs.
This imbalance of power between citizen and government is not going to tilt back in favor of the citizen anytime soon.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:29 pmManning, and consequently Assange, leaked so much information so indiscriminately the did endanger people’s lives.
Moreover, at least in the case of Bradley Manning, his background sounds chaotic and his demeanor appears to be prone to mental issues. He’s also gay, if not, in fact, transgendered, which by itself suggests inherent emotional instability, including in the way he’d deal with socio-political matters.
Mark (bb410c) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:31 pmIt’s complete and utter horse****.
of course it is but he’s counting on them not to extradite him
which might could happen if he starts railing against the piggy fascist chineser whores what he’s counting on
you have to pick your battles
and Edward has picked his
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:31 pmI should have said 1880 not to confuse it with the Civil war, or 1850, but same idea.
Former Conservative (754c76) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:32 pmGive him a break. obama didn’t even know this was going on until he read it in the newspapers.
They contend it saved two terrorist attacks but if they reported the 431 attacks it really prevented, no one would believe it. Of course with this administration, unless you are drinking the koolaid, you don’t believe even two.
Jim (823b10) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:53 pmExcept Mumbai certainly wasn’t stopped, Zazi was stopped precisely because it involved an AQ account,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/9/2013 @ 9:58 pminteresting they haven’t brought up the TATP plot
I agree about our citizenry’s general complacency. Totally.
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:00 pmOf course he’s counting on them not to extradite him. He’s a valuable asset even if he wasn’t working with them before he fled. But there are other countries that don’t have extradition treaties with the US. Why China?
Here’s why; the Chinese can protect him from any US attempts to grab him whereas those other countries can’t. He claims he’s afraid of something like that, but he went to the one country were if it’s interested can and will protect from exactly that. Why is it so interested.
Nothing this guy says passes the smell test. For instance following that I took that quote from an article in the UK Guardian. Here’s the entire sentence surrounding the quote:
The city of Hong Kong “could and would” resist the USG? Hardly. It’s the country, the PRC, that can and will resist the USG’s efforts to get him back. Just like we had to negotiate to get back our own after that EP-3 made an emergency landing on Hainan island. We couldn’t just grab them.
Hong Kong has a great SWAT team on it’s police force but Hong Kong alone can’t and wouldn’t “resist the dictates of the US government.” And everyone knows it.
I mean he tells the press that he couldn’t stand to live in a nation that would do what the USG is doing with the NSA surveillance. So he flees to Hong Kong which has a law that allows them to do this?!?!
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/world/asia/06cnd-hong.html?_r=1&
So if you know what he’s saying about Hong Kong is horse****, Mr. Feets, why are you buying that self-serving happy BS about his noble intentions?
One more thing; Hong Kong is one of the most expensive places in the world to live. And the Guardian reports:
Who’s paying for those accommodations? Do you think his ATM or credit cards still work?
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:00 pmOne is reminded of that police official, who sought asylum in the US Embassy in Beijing, how did that turn out again,?
narciso (3fec35) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:04 pmEdward tells us stuff
he tells us about how the government is spending huge sums of borrowed chineser dollars for to spy on us
you and me
and what they are doing is quite dangerous and scary, especially in light of what we know about our corrupt department of justice and our fascist internal revenue service
I like him
if our government wasn’t riddled with an ungodly large number of sneaky fascist piggywhores looking forward to sweet sweet pensions they wouldn’t be in this mess now would they
no they wouldn’t
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:07 pmI wanted to live in Hong Kong when I was 29. It was a hop, skip and a jump from Macao and Shanghai and the South Seas where I could sail on a junk and fight Malay pirates. You don’t suspect even the least bit of kookiness in this kid?
nk (875f57) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:13 pmhe’s kooky for sure
he was anti-cia well before the whole privacy thing
but whatever – he’s entitled to his views
the important thing is he was the guy what blew the whistle
and that is important, what he did
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:25 pmI just checked; the exchange rate fluctuates but if I wanted a typical “plush” hotel in Hong Kong the Crowne Plaza fills the bill. It’s approximately $270 a night including surcharge. So as of now Snowden’s piled up a bill of close to $6k not including room service.
Assuming that he wouldn’t have attempted to attract attention to himself by withdrawing enough cash to alert authorities he was attempting to flee before he boarded that flight to Hong Kong, he’s already blown through most of the $10k you can legally take abroad without declaring you’re carrying more.
And that’s assuming he took the cheapest room available as opposed to opting for something more “plush” than the basic “Crowne Plaza Superior Room.” Don’t you love the PR types that create these names?
Just saying, he’s going to be begging in the streets in about two weeks which doesn’t seem to me to be much of a plan. Or he’s either a guest of the state or he’s got a stash in some secret off-shore account beyond the reach of the USG. Which is sort of what he was talking about to the Guardian.
I’d be more inclined to buy this story about how he’s a noble conscientious objector if he stuck around to face the music. After all, that’s the essence of civil disobedience. If you think a law or in this case a government program is wrong you stand up to it. Henry David Thorough was willing to go to jail before he cooperated.
He didn’t flee to Hong Kong and give interviews. Unlike Eddie Snowden who for some reason can live on room service in a luxury hotel overlooking the harbor.
Sorry Mr. Feets; I’m not buying it. You can call me a fascist whore if you want but the story doesn’t add up.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:31 pmI apologize to the ghost of Henry David Thoreau for misspelling his name.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:35 pmHonesty compels me to point out Snowden could have put a big deposit on his room with a credit card before leaving for Hong Kong. But I still don’t see how he’s more than a few weeks away from dumpster diving after they kick him out of his “plush” hotel for nonpayment, which if you’ve ever been to Hong Kong during the summer isn’t an attractive idea no matter how much you like Chinese food.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:50 pmThat is he’ll be dumpster diving and begging on the street only if you buy his noble story.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:51 pmIn theory, yes. In practice, not always.
Which, I imagine, is also the case for the Internet database.
Patterico (9c670f) — 6/9/2013 @ 10:55 pmI can’t be totally sure about what makes Snowden tick. He appears not to be of the right, but since he is 29 years old, a lack of ideological maturity on his part isn’t too surprising and is to be expected.
His comment about freedom of thought and communication in Hong Kong/China is ridiculous. But the peculiar geo-politics of that city in a hypothetical tussle with the US, and, as noted below, its decent standard of living, along with uncertainty about (comparatively) US-friendly Europe, may have forced his hand.
There is a big swath of gray in regards to this case, of the intentions and broadbrush legality behind what Snowden has done, thanks in large part to the corruption and deviousness meted out by Obama and his enablers.
Mark (bb410c) — 6/9/2013 @ 11:01 pmDo you realize how insecure your phone line is? Do you have any idea how easy it is to get someone’s phone records to trip alarms at the NSA? Here’s a hint, follow the wire and look for a spot where you can access it without getting caught.
And you thought swatting was bad…
TMLutas (0876a3) — 6/9/2013 @ 11:02 pmAgain, how can a defense be mounted when everything about it is classified?
That he will be prosecuted is a given, what I’m wondering is how he could be fairly tried? Not certain that all courts and judges will consider the point moot.
More anti-government than Fox Corp.
http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-nsa-2013-6
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/9/2013 @ 11:17 pmwe’ll see Mr. 57 but so far what we know for sure is he exposed the US government’s penchant for spying on its own citizens
and we know his own freedom is now severely curtailed
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/9/2013 @ 11:28 pmThis is undeniably true, whatever else you think of him.
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/9/2013 @ 11:44 pmI understand that’s what you’re arguing. But I don’t understand how you can be so confident when the collection appears to have been done pursuant to statutes and court orders.
How can the Foreign Intelligence Security Act and/or Court be used to authorize domestic spying?
Note that the WH has recently called FISA the Federal Intelligence Security Act. We are well past the slippery slope.
Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/9/2013 @ 11:54 pmYes, we know that. But the sheer wierdness of his story indicates there’s a lot we don’t know. And since some parts of his story are so unbelievable, it makes the rest unbelievable, too.
You don’t have to be a piggy piggy fascist whore to doubt him.
That could be for the reasons he gives to the press or it could be because he’s got a personal protection detail. Ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali how that works.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:05 amThis person makes one of the points I was trying to make above, with an added twist:
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:08 amOr just watch “Bullit” and see how Steve McQueen lays down the law to that Ross character. If you’re not a head of state or something close, if you want protection you follow their rules. Not the other way around.
Plus there’s the car chase and the Lalo Schifrin movie score. The car chase really PO’d the SF authorities because they only authorized the drivers to go something like 10 miles over the speed limit. But Steve McQueen & crew decided to really haul *** anyway. I always liked that guy.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:14 amCould you imagine being the poor government Ahole who has to sit at the console reading up on the personal history of (insert name of random citizen here)?
This next is offered in the hope that it eventually gets read by the government functionary assigned to surveil me.
Up yours with a cactus, you cowering survile punk.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:48 amagain tifosa
Colonel Haiku (1871f4) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:04 amOne too many mimosas
put a sock in it
and hey Big Brotha
Colonel Haiku (89b580) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:08 amdon’t let it all get you down
heads up feet on ground
I always feel like
Colonel Haiku (9a1c93) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:11 amSomebody’s watching us all
it ain’t teh Good Lord
A link to the above blockquote wouldn’t have hurt.
What If China Hacks the NSA’s Massive Data Trove?
(originally per Hot Air headlines)
Former Conservative (6e026c) — 6/10/2013 @ 2:55 amYou know it should be mandatory that the government massive trove of data servers be powered by windmills.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 6/10/2013 @ 3:53 amIn the parking lot. In the G”D” parking lot.
Not off to the side. Not as a scenic backdrop.
Right there. So the eagles carcass falls right on their car.
F*&^%r m*&(^s.
If he exposed the government violating the 4th Amendment, he is a hero. National Security is not a valid reason for the Government to violate the Constitution. If the gov’t stopped giving visas to Muslim Men we would not need PRISM. Let us keep in mind that PRISM is (probably) how they put pressure on Petraus over Benghazi.
And it will all depend on the judge who decides to block him from defending himself based on the hero theory. He once swore and oath to “defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic”. The people in power, and the POS judge they will find, will try to keep that oath out of the ears of the jury.
Smarty (273307) — 6/10/2013 @ 5:52 amYou don’t have to be a piggy piggy fascist whore to doubt him.
nope but the piggy piggy NSA whoreboys have done far far more to earn our doubts than Mr. Snowden has
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:15 amAt the outset I asked: “Is there a distinction in principle between that which Edward Snowden has just done, and that which Bradley Manning did?”
There id, according to Daniel Ellsberg of Pentagon Papers fame:
In other words Manning restricted his leaks to no higher than secret; Snowden (and Ellsberg) did not.
There’s more here, by Ellsberg!
Are these three Americans, Ellsberg, Manning, and Snowden, traitors or heroes?
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:51 amYou’re pathetic, Perry2.0.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:02 amI don’t understand what the purpose is of comparing Mr. Snowden to a puerile self-loathing fruitcake like bradass87.
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:06 amYou need to read the Ellsberg piece, happyfeet.
Gramps2 (2506a2) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:37 amI tried reading it I really did.
It reads like Ellsberg is having a manic episode.
He’s going all unabomber manifesto and it’s not helpful or interesting.
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:45 amPerry. You really need to try honesty.
JD (b63a52) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:02 amEverybody should listen to the interview of Edward Snowden.
The White House is out today saying that they are doing nothing illegal, but Snowden is saying that there is a new system in the works that will provide the “next President” with “turnkey tyranny.”
Neo (d1c681) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:41 amTo me, whether he should be prosecuted and whether he should have done this are two separate things. If he leaked classified material (as he claims), then he should be prosecuted and convicted. Period.
But that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have leaked this information. Sometimes we need to act on our convictions, even if it has adverse consequences. I can’t tell if this is one of those times or if Snowden is one of those people, but the Obama Administration has already leaked classified information about the Bin Laden raid and covered it up until after the election, as well as intentionally leaked information for its own PR benefit. So I think I’ll wait awhile to decide where this leak ranks.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:58 amSnowden has an interesting background: He didn’t graduate from high school or attend college, but he did get his GED; he entered an accelerated Army Special Forces program but left after 5 months; and he apparently took a medical leave from his current Booz Allen Hamilton job after only 3 months. That doesn’t sound like the typical intelligence analyst, does it?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:18 amEspecially an analyst with access to highly classified information, although it could be that this Administration is so big or leaky that all it takes to learn classified information is to be in the right place at the right time.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:20 amHow’d he know to go to China? (or halfway – hong Kong)
Does he really think the Chinese government is better than that of the United States?
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:44 amSammy, it might have something to do with the fact that the government of the United States wants to prosecute him. Or something.
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:46 amDaniel Ellsberg praises Snowden:
In one artocle he compares the NSA to the (East German) Stasi.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position5
In another he says we need more Snowden’s:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/10/daniel-ellsberg-edward-snowden-is-a-hero-and-we-need-more-whistleblowers.html
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:46 amthink may have gotten lost in this discussion is the difference between building a database and accessing the information inside it. Take existing databases that compile criminal histories as an example.
Part of the reason for the database is that the companies wouldn’t let the government conduct searches or agree to preserve records.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:47 amSnowden has an interesting background: He didn’t graduate from high school or attend college, but he did get his GED; he entered an accelerated Army Special Forces program but left after 5 months; and he apparently took a medical leave from his current Booz Allen Hamilton job after only 3 months. That doesn’t sound like the typical intelligence analyst, does it?
Again, referring back to my comment from yesterday (#4 above), the CIA sure manages to hire some interesting characters.
JVW (23867e) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:48 amComment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:58 am
It would be very interesting to have him tried and convicted, then watch as the pressure mounts on Obama to commute his sentence and/or pardon him. Of course I can see the Holder crew manipulating and dragging out things so that they have managed to leave Washington well before all of this is settled. Watch it take a few years before we can get Snowden extradited, for instance.
JVW (23867e) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:51 amI’m thinking that Obama’ll get the Chinese to “disappear” him in exchange for the information collected of calls to China and a Tibetan dissident to be named later.
nk (875f57) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:08 amThe Chinese government might make him “disappear” all on their own, and then pump him for information.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:16 amOr else.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:17 am177. Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:46 am
Sammy, it might have something to do with the fact that the government of the United States wants to prosecute him.
He planned this, before the leak broke. He even gave up his girlfriend in Hawaii.
The question is why did he think (potential?) exile in China is worth revealing these secrets? China! Like they are honest and above board people. He has a distorted view of who is good and bad.
He probably thought the United States is the only country doing some spying. That’s Occam’s razor, probably, but he shouldn’t have used it..Occam’s razor assumes you have all the information. He needed to use Rumsfeld’s razor.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:22 amWe never get any Chinese or Russian citizens doing this kind of thing.
Not because there’s nothing going on.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:23 amWhat If China Hacks the NSA’s Massive Data Trove?
Exactly.
Also the longer this goes on, the greater the chances this could be misused.
As it is, probably the worst consequence that happened to anyone is getting put on the No Fly list.
Some people might also have been dednied visas.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:26 amto paraphrase Rumsfeld’s Razor…
“There are things we know we know, there are things we know that we don’t know, and then there are things that we don’t yet know that we don’t yet know about.”
(Of course, the inherent problem with lefties is that they are convinced they already know everything.)
Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:30 amIt occured to me that one purpose of the leak(s) could be so as not to create suspicion there was a spy because somebody being watched acted like they knew something.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:30 amIf it were not for whistle blowers, how would we ever know what possibly nefarious acts our government is into?
Gramps2 (738aee) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:44 amComment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 10:18 am
I’m sure some things have changed since I was there, but credentials were never that necessary to get into intel, the ability to discern and reason were.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:45 amYou had to have the ability to recognize patterns and connect those dots to seemingly unconnected events, places, and/or people.
Some would say that the emphasis on credentials could be one of the things that hamstrings a lot of our intel efforts today.
I heard Sen. Johnson from Wisconsin say that there are plenty of people in Congress on Intel committees and such that anyone who wants to whistleblow should be able to go to, if what they want is really to communicate concerns over illegitimate things. No need to go public unless you want to make a public point.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:48 amFWIW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7GCw02_5Pw
“We had a hit, you need one of those little round plastic things”
(No, not a frisbee, a thin black plastic thing called a “45”)
Comment by nk (875f57) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:08 am
I saw elsewhere on the net this AM that some “community” members have openly remarked about having Snowden “disappeared”.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:48 amThis is why he needs asylum apparently.
Why would Obama care about Snowden, other than to prosecute him? Even though he seems to have knowledge of classified information, he probably doesn’t have access to information about senior Obama Administration officials. He’s just one more person for them to discredit and discard. What I expect to see is more stories about how strange Snowden was.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:48 amPlus, stories about how we can’t have third party vendors handling classified information. Wouldn’t Obama love to speechify on how much better it is for the government to hire a lot more employees and handle this in-house?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:49 amBut then, DRJ, how would he reward his cronies without being able to out-source stuff?
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:51 amPost WWII, Edward Snowden is the latest in a string of important whistle blowers.
Gramps2 (738aee) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:51 amOutsourcing…..
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/06/silicon-valley-doesnt-just-help-the-surveillance-state-it-built-it/276700/
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:53 am“Grumps” forgot the most famous of Post-WW2 “whistle-blowers”,
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:58 amThe Cambridge Five:
Guy Burgess, Kim Philby, Don Maclean, Tony Blunt (the fifth member’s exact identity is speculative).
Perry2.0 celebrates murder. Typical.
http://phys.org/news204866933.html
http://www.dailytech.com/Taliban+Murders+Afghan+Elder+Thanks+Wikileaks+for+Revealing+Spies/article19250.htm
Perry2.0, I have to ask; what’s it like to be a soulless ghoul?
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:58 amWait a minute.
How do we know that “Edward Snowden” isn’t really Glenn Greenwald’s Brazilian cabana boy?
SPQR (768505) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:58 amBelay my last. Perry2.0, what’s it like to be a mindless soulless ghoul?
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:04 pmHas he ever commented under the names Rick Ellensburg or Thomas Ellers?
Doesn’t The Guardian have ties to George Soros? I think Soros Fund Management has an office in Hong Kong. Maybe Snowden’s presence in Hong Kong is as simple as The Guardian using a friend with money to facilitate a place to meet (and maybe a hotel room) that wouldn’t be noticed by nosy reporters.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:07 pmObama doesn’t seem to mind rewarding his friends with plum government jobs and grants, but I think his ultimate goal is to expand government. Because, you know, never let a crisis go to waste.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:10 pmhey, I just had a thought (stifle those giggles!!)
this NSA thing is more bipartisan than most of the current scandals, and in some ways is less of a scandal than a policy issue, including about some conservative media types like Andy McCarthy and others
Thinking like a devious spinmeister for a moment, something like this is a nice distraction from all of the other ObamaCentric problems right now, ain’t it
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:21 pmmaybe the NSA can mine info on Snowden’s finances and see where he has had gotten checks from or who paid for his trip to HK
How do we know that “Edward Snowden” isn’t really Glenn Greenwald’s Brazilian cabana boy?
Do you know I had the very same thought? But then I figured that he would have stayed in Brazil, which I don’t think would extradite him on this matter, rather than taking his chances in Hong Kong.
Seriously, though, with Greenwald having been the source for this information I did wonder why Snowden hadn’t fled to Brazil instead of Hong Kong. Here is our extradition treaty with Brazil:
http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-bra.pdf
I don’t know if Snowden’s crimes would qualify.
JVW (23867e) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:23 pmYou might be on to something Doc, the NSA situation is just “business as usual” for them.
It is the IRS that is at the heart of this corruption, for what they started seemed to seep out to a lot of other agencies, particularly when you read the account of that woman in TX.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:38 pmDRJ, the cronies don’t want gov’t jobs, there’s no opportunity there (or at least it’s a much diminished one) for raking-off the graft that the system has promised them, Chicago-style.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:56 pmAll in all, my guess is Snowden went to Hong Kong on purpose — probably with guidance from lawyers and others knowledgeable about applicable diplomatic and legal issues. What I’d like to know is whether they also reached out to the Chinese before going public with Snowden’s information. My guess is they did and, if so, Snowden’s presence in Hong Kong tells us what their response was.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 12:59 pmYes, but Obama wants them to have government jobs (instead of lucrative private jobs dependent on government money), and he’s willing to dribble out just enough power, prestige and money to make them drool over it.
Think of how some people acted about ObamaPhones, askeptic. Selling out for a cell phone? Maybe we all have our price but Obama’s talent is realizing just how low some of us will go to sell out.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:03 pmOf course, I agree the “special” people — i.e., Democratic donors and insiders — will continue to have their lucrative private deals.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:04 pmYes, it is truly disgusting what this once proud Republic has devolved into.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:05 pmIt’s the middle class that Obama targets with his ever-expanding government. That’s why he has to talk about the middle class so much, and promise them so much. He fools them with words so they don’t notice how much he is taking from them.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:06 pmObama’s Gov’t Jobs….
A blast from the past:
We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us.
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:06 pmThink of how some people acted about ObamaPhones,
Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:03 pm
ObamaPhones are a mind control tool controlled by the NSA
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:25 pmit is all clear now
and they are tracing me, even me, this very moment
To me this is just a logical extension of the “Information Needs To Be Free” idiocy that parrots the removal of copyrights and patents on data, internal communications in private businesses, music, and the like.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:30 pmdon’t say bad stuff about edward Mr. daley or you and i we’re gonna have a problem do you understand me
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/10/2013 @ 1:41 pmok then
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/10/2013 @ 2:32 pmhey look Mr. newrouter found a link
Home Depot Co-Founder: We Should Throw the NSA Leaker a Party
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/home-depot-co-founder-we-should-throw-edward-snowden-a-party-we-ought-to-be-grateful-video/
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/10/2013 @ 2:34 pm“don’t say bad stuff about edward Mr. daley or you and i we’re gonna have a problem do you understand me”
Mr. Feets – Is he ghey?
My point is he seems like one of those movement people what think they are so elite they get to judge what information what belongs to others they should get to grab like piggy piggy greasy azzed union thugs except ooops when it comes to information potentially affecting themselves and their buddies all of subbin it is hole nother story and dat information needs to stay on double super secret probation.
Every time leftist hypocrisy is exposed another angel gets its wings.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 2:40 pmhe’s just a swell guy I think Mr. daley
idealistic, sure
but also brave and he’s made a tremendous sacrifice for freedom
it’s kind of exciting is all and I hope many people are inspired by his example
plus I don’t see what harm he’s done not even a little
America is a better place for what he done I think
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/10/2013 @ 2:50 pm216. The Hon. Sensenbrenner disagrees with you daley. Sure Bolton is in your corner, but feets’ crush did us a big favor.
There is absolutely no prophylaxis against terrorism. Look at Boston. The SWAT teams were in place. They just want terrorism to be a civil legal matter.
The purpose it serves is to justify the police State. Small matter a handful of white folk lost and maimed.
The Law will not be restored to service of Amerikkka without civil conflagration.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 3:50 pmBurn Baby, Burn!
askeptic (b8ab92) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:06 pmMy taken on Snowden is that he had a water-cooler-chat type of knowledge about Prism. I kinda believe he was recruited by someone who was looking for a weak link and that’s why he ended up in China. Not saying’s it’s the ChiComs, but at least someone friendly to them. If you wanted to recruit someone, wouldn’t you look for someone with the least depth of education, wisdom, big picture knowledge?
Note that he himself never did any of this bad stuff (and I agree it’s only a matter of time before Obama et al. do it) but he heard about it or theorized about it. So it’s not really whistle blowing.
At this point I vote to prosecute him.
Patricia (be0117) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:13 pm“The Hon. Sensenbrenner disagrees with you daley.”
gg – Bulldookey. When you and Mr. Feets are done worshiping at the feets (see what I did there) of our new moral elite, you may pause and ask yourselves, hey does Mr. Edward Snowden moral crusader need to make himself famous like traitorous scum Bradley Manning by splashing this country’s intelligence capabilities to foreign whorespondents and newsluts across the world or might there have been more lower key avenues for patriotic Edward to have alerted oversight authorities to intelligence overreach without betraying sources and methods to the world. I submit Rep. Sensenbrenner and I would have preferred the latter avenues but then Mr. Snowden would have been deprived of his immediate celebrity and notoriety.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:17 pm“The purpose it serves is to justify the police State.”
gg – Which is why Snowden sought refuge in China, which is a free country compared to the U.S.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:20 pmAnother interesting angle, ahem;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339202/Lindsay-Mills-girlfriend-John-Snowden-Woman-NSA-leaker-left-member-acrobat-troupe.html
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:32 pmI do worry that we’re being trotted down misdirection lane once again under the tender guiding hand of the pros. Here we all are, talking about the leaker and his personality and his background, his hotel bills, and his possible motivations. While doing that, we are not talking about the Patriot Act on steroids, or all the reasons this administration has already proved it cannot be trusted with our personal data–even that which starts out as meta data. Most importantly, in my opinion we are not talking about how someone like young Mr. Leaker was granted top secret security clearance through his employment as a contractor with access to such top secret plans and data in the first place.
elissa (f9c214) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:44 pmWell it does raise a question, elissa, it’s as if they learned nothing from the Manning affair, it would be good to know who authorized these expansions both at ‘No Such Agency’ and in the Administration,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:47 pmnarciso – So now they call it acrobatics?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 4:52 pmElissa, I refuse to talk about those things. The only thing that matters is what the hell is going on with the NSA collecting and trawling through strictly domestic identifying/personal data of its citizens data with no specific basis of suspicion.
SarahW (b0e533) — 6/10/2013 @ 5:01 pmOne thing that seems curious, is the timing of each stage, Google went in at the beginning of the year, possibly after Mumbai, others came before the Underwear Bomber or the Times Square bomber, in other words no particular rhyme or reason,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 5:11 pmMr. Senator Rand needs to get cracking on those lawsuits
happyfeet (c60db2) — 6/10/2013 @ 5:17 pmSammy, the reason he went to China could includ him being a double agent or new turncoat. Equally, simply because the Chinese can resist pressure to extradite and also the US are NOT going to launch a special forces mission there to extract him.
Former Conservative (f9e702) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:15 pmhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324904004578537813599741012.html?mod=djemalertNEWS
Good article above about how so many contractors have been hired since 9-11.
Another site that talks to the growth of agencies since 9-11 is at http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/map/
vor2 (5007ed) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:17 pm225. Why, Hong Kong? Mr. 57 ably explained. Obie pushes on a string when he plays thug with China.
Perhaps the kid is engaged in wishful thinking that China is a good tack, Moscow might have been as good just harder to get to from Hawaii. I feel safe in thinking he was maximizing his options.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:23 pmAh Arkin, the co author in that last link, one published a book chalk full of code named programs, and drove a real hero, like General Boykin out of his post,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:23 pmNo Volodya’s RT promotes Assuange and Anonymous, China has the Snowden franchise:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350695/blizzard-snowdens-mark-steyn#comments
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:25 pmNarciso,
vor2 (5007ed) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:34 pmGen Horner seemed to have no problem with the book.
Comment from Amazon:
226. Ballerina? I bet she’s flexible.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:35 pmelissa,
It also keeps us from talking about immigration reform, although Rubio is talking about it.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:39 pmIf the govt. can justify collecting all of this metadata under the auspices that they are just storing the info until they have sufficient suspicion to examine it, what prevents them from actually tapping and recording conversations and then storing it under the same reasoning? After all, one is just as unconstitutional as the other.
And no I don’t think he should be prosecuted for exposing unconstitutional acts by this govt. even if they classify it. If they classified murder of American citizens, or false imprisonment in order to cover it up, should someone be prosecuted for exposing that just because it was classified?
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:40 pmMotives that may be relevant for purposes of mitigation don’t always also support exoneration. From what I know, I agree that the leaker(s) should be prosecuted.
So, too, should a great many other leakers.
The trial may indeed prove embarrassing to this, or the previous, presidential administration. But that is no reason at all not to prosecute; it is an illegitimate factor to consider at all in the prosecutorial decision.
Beldar (4bce37) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:50 pmWell the lawyers have Feinstein on there side, as well as Bolton.
Funny, the lawyers are always for working.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 6:55 pmDRJ–Both Mr. Rubio and Ms Ayotte seem to have a lot to say about immigration in the last day or so. I’m pretty sure I don’t know what’s going on anymore so I won’t even try to guess. I know you and others were concerned that they’d try to sneak it in while everybody else was looking at squirrels. It appears you may have been quite right.
elissa (f9c214) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:01 pmrun Edward run they want to prosecute you
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:05 pmMister 29 year-old high school drop out Edward Snowden is our new constitutional expert and DECIDERER-IN-CHIEF on intelligence matters because he knows things and is better than you.
Burn him.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:33 pmhe just let us in on stuff what everyone already knew about except for us
thank you edward
nobody tells me anything except for edward
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:38 pmLet’s keep our eyes upon the ball, people.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/10/2013 @ 7:48 pmThe IRS!
This is how Police States are made, through intimidation and thuggery.
Though it seems the keeping of “call logs” is within current 4th-A case law, it is a fine line that needs to be watched. And with both the Right and the Left with the knickers in a knot, it will be watched.
But, we still don’t know the sequence of events and meetings that led to the IRS shenanigans, though it seems to have a high probability of coming to rest within the WH Counsel’s Office (Bauer).
“Snowden. Edward Snowden.”
Nah, doesn’t have the same ring as ‘Bond.’
Elephant Stone (da6dfd) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:10 pmMaybe if he were to try saying it with a Scottish accent, a la Sean Connery.
I bet the people who are thanking Snowden haven’t a good word to say about Whittaker Chambers.
Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:15 pmSnowden.
Ed Snowden.
Shaken not stirred.
As fascists aimed for heights absurd
Edward he was not deterred and this is what he said:
I can’t allow the US government to destroy privacy and basic liberties.
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:19 pmformer spy, who defects to an Island off the Chinese mainland, that’s not bond, pikachu,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:25 pmhe’s done more to resist fascism in this one year than meghan’s coward daddy’s done in 80
he is an American
there’s so few left anymore
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:28 pmAs one who knows hyperbole well, Feinstein’s charge of TREASON is just a bit outside reasonability.
Just how is exposing what is unjustifiably secret, which no one can do squat to circumvent treason?
In his first 100 days, Il Douche kills the Polish/Czech antimissile program as a goodwill offering to Pooter. ‘As leverage against bad-actor Iran.’ Jarrett never had any intention of getting in Iran’s face.
After the unilateral capitulation Pooter helpfully rejoindered ‘Now how about sharing technology with our client states?’
So how many lawyers at the SEC, of their 4000 employees, raking in $250K per annum, easy, are losing sleep because John Corzine and Jamie Dimon skate free and clear having stolen a $Billion$ neat, in the MF Global debacle?
I’m joking, of course. Lawyers are interested in winning battles. The war? Get real.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:28 pmhyperbole rocks
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:29 pmPoint taken, gary, however, where do you think many of those files, have gone to by now.
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:32 pmGood news, bud. He ran.
Drudge is reporting that after he talked to the guardian he checked out of his hotel. Now he’s in the wind.
Anyway, what’s wrong with prosecuting him? Even if you think he’s right, what he did was against the law. Maybe he’s right and maybe the law is wrong. But the way to test that theory is in a court of law before a jury of his peers.
Not in interviews in Hong Kong. He kept saying he wasn’t afraid because he made his choice. His running says he is afraid.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:33 pmwhat’s wrong with prosecuting him?
it’s mostly cause of prosecution would have an unquantifiable chilling effect at a crucial moment in the ascendancy of fascism in america
and edward should be afraid
fascists don’t play beanbag
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:35 pm255. Files?
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:37 pmYou don’t think he stopped at a few training manuals do you, and pikachu a little perspective,
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:39 pm‘although nothing happened at Tianamen Square,’ there were about 3.000 fewer at the end of that exercise,
256. I don’t see how a defense can be undertaken with all the evidence classified.
The judge would probably instruct the jury that the government is not being tried and if they acquitted he’d declare a mistrial their having ignored his instructions.
Justice is a ‘nice to have’ with criminal law. That’s why lawyers are generally anti-capital punishment. Order is the only reliable, tangible outcome.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:43 pmTiananmen Square was crude and sloppy
they acted out of panic
our fascists here in failmerica know they have a sturdy media safety net to catch them
they can afford to be subtle
they can afford to be nuanced
and they can afford to take all the time in the world
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:45 pm259. Per usual, you’ve thought a little more deeply than I ’bout the matter.
Stands to reason there’s insurance.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:46 pmMr. Feets, something tells me you don’t have a firm grip on the concept of civil disobedience. If you think the law is an a** you dare them to prosecute for breaking it. You don’t ask them to forget the whole thing.
And you can either fight fascism or run from it. You can’t do both at the same time.
Steve57 (7895a0) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:47 pmno I don’t have a firm grip on the concept of civil disobedience
I thought that was like when you throw recyclables into the trash
happyfeet (8ce051) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:49 pmApproaching the question of prosecution from a perspective of incentives, I would not prosecute. I think the question of how much liberty should be sacrificed for a given increase in security must be a public question, if we are to be a free society.
Mike (ba04b4) — 6/10/2013 @ 8:54 pmthe same DOJ that depicted a reporter as a flight risk, to track every movement he made?
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:00 pmUh this is awkward, don’t inquire about Politiskovaya or Klebnikov when you’re over there;
http://rt.com/usa/nsa-leak-snowden-live-updates-482/
narciso (3fec35) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:04 pmMetadata, neologism or just arcana, here goes:
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/06/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere.html
Obviously, NSA, FBI and CIA know this stuff, how come they can’t be troubled to use it for our benefit? I mean just to provide ‘deep cover’ if for no other reason.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:10 pmTo my eyes, this is just a huge distraction from IRS scandal, Benghazi.
Hillary just passed GO, collected her $200 and is a shoo in for the primary. Scandal forgotten.
Sure the government is spying on us through our phones and the internet and all Snowden did was provide confirmation… don’t get me wrong, I am shocked, but it was about my own blissful ignorance of something that I should have already sensed was being done.
SteveG (794291) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:25 pmDay One AM I was interested. By lunch I was wondering why I hadn’t paid attention to the guys interviewed at Wired who have consistently said to always assume someone from our vast state is recording/listening.
That said, Snowden needs to be prosecuted. We can’t let Manning and Snowden become anything more than long term federal inmates.
(and somewhere in Hawaii a ballerina/poledancer needs comforting lets see.. Travelocity.. leaving on the red eye… OK)
269. HotAir says there are 4 EPA scandals emerging.
When it rains..
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:30 pm“Just how is exposing what is unjustifiably secret, which no one can do squat to circumvent treason?”
gg – Treason has a definition under the law and Celebrity Leader Teddy’s actions may not qualify. Why though, do you consider NSA programs unjustifiably secret? Should the details of all our intelligence collection programs be subject to public scrutiny? Seriously? Is that your position?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/10/2013 @ 9:50 pmI am amused by Bob Beckel’s (The Five, today) complete amazement that a HS dropout/security guard could acquire a Top Secret/Compartmentalized Information clearance – Hell, there were thousands besides me in the service (in a land far, far away, and a Galaxy light-years away) with that access.
askeptic (2bb434) — 6/10/2013 @ 11:23 pmBob: Intel work isn’t about knowing the Right People on Harvard Square, it’s about being able to not only connect dots, but to see dots that are not visible to the average eye.
I thought, in his interview, Snowden came across quite well, much more erudite than Manning.
“I thought, in his interview, Snowden came across quite well, much more erudite than Manning.”
askeptic – That’s not tough competition.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 12:23 am271. Now I don’t have an English major, but your argument is as clear as mud.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:15 am272. I agree.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:21 am271. Wiki:
Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
E.g., Iva Toguri, known as Tokyo Rose, and Tomoya Kawakita were two Japanese Americans who were tried for treason after World War II.
Now, try again. Make the case that this government is ‘mine’, that in any way shape or form that it is not my daughter’s mortal enemy.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 5:32 am“Now, try again.”
gg – Thanks for the definition. I don’t think Celebrity Leaker Teddy’s actions fit the definition of Treason.
Now back to my question for you, why do you consider NSA programs “unjustifiably” secret? Do you have a need to know everything the agency does? Seriously?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:51 amDo you have a need to know everything the agency does? Seriously?
Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:51 am
If they are doing it in contravention of FISA (you know the Foreign part of it) or the US Constitution, then the answer is most definitely yes, as they are both violating the law and the constitution.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:52 pmADD: by spying on US citizens.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 6:53 pm277. Thank you POA.
In other news, Global Economic RESET gaining pace.
Funny the confluence of currents in a sh*tstorm.
gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:14 pmCBS said Google had more info on people than the NSa – by far.
Sammy Finkelman (c4d9d6) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:21 pm“If they are doing it in contravention of FISA (you know the Foreign part of it) or the US Constitution, then the answer is most definitely yes”
poa – You personally have to know all those details? What exactly do you need that detailed information for and what will you do with it? I call complete utter total final BS on that claim.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/11/2013 @ 7:49 pmThen you prefer to have a rogue and lawless govt? Because if they are doing it by violating the law and the Constitution then what you have is no longer a constitutional republic!
I call complete utter total final BS on your claim.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 8:42 pmhttp://c4.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/styles/homepage_slideshow/public/uploaded/pic_cartoon_061113_new_A.jpg?itok=kZY7jArE
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 6/11/2013 @ 9:46 pmhey looks like they got Snowden, he was spotted in a building window
jonslater (3775fc) — 6/26/2013 @ 5:06 amcheck this footage out http://youtu.be/Z3EF2pvKuo4