Patterico's Pontifications

5/30/2013

Will Congress Make the Redskins Change Their Name?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:20 am

With a little legal arm-twisting: a threat to remove their trademark protection.

Weigh in below. But be warned: if you disagree with government pressuring a football team to change its name, you are a racist.

127 Responses to “Will Congress Make the Redskins Change Their Name?”

  1. If I were the Redskin owners I would do a “trial run” of potential names to gauge their reception by the public. One weekend they would be the Washington Congressmonkeys. The next they would be the Washington Windbags. The weekend after the Washington Bribestakers. Just good business to try out a new name before you adopt it I think.

    nk (875f57)

  2. The graphics would be respectively a monkey in a blue suit; a fat old white man in a blue suit with a mouth the size of a bucket; a fat old white man in a blue suit holding a wad of greenbacks.

    nk (875f57)

  3. Sure, nk, it would be good PR to let fans select a new name, the Windbags is certainly an early leading candidate.

    The Washington Weasels or the Potomac Polecats or Pickpockets or Porkers or the Federal Freeloaders or Fauntleroys deserve consideration.

    ropelight (be3960)

  4. NK’s plan is the best plan evar.

    It’s a pity pro sports teams are too deeply entrenched in the currying-government-favor biz to even consider it. Mustn’t make wee-wee all over the funding source for that new stadium, after all.

    PCachu (e072b7)

  5. Coincidentally, I understand that the IRS, the EPA, OHSA, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms all have visits to Redskins headquarters scheduled for next week.

    As for new team names, how about the Washington Debt, or the Thugs, or the Mighty Bureaucrats?

    JVW (23867e)

  6. I like teh Washington Windbreakers…

    Colonel Haiku (399c43)

  7. FYI, 10 loopy representatives from spaced-out districts are not Congress. They’re not the House. They’re not a committee of the House. They’re not a subcommittee of the House. They’re not anything, other than a complete lunatic fringe. Sometimes you have to break out of the cocoon of being in the chattering classes in order to see basic political realities.

    William Scalia (89a442)

  8. maybe they could call themselves the dirt poor reservation-dwellers with rusted-out pickups in the front yard sitting round waiting on that sweet sweet casino check skins

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  9. Comment by William Scalia (89a442) — 5/30/2013 @ 7:55 am

    Fifteen years ago, gay marriage was relegated to the lunatic fringe. If you don’t think these ideas gradually become mainstream liberal thought, then you haven’t been paying attention.

    I like happy’s last idea: the Washington Pitbosses says “authority,” while still holding on to modern Native American heritage.

    JVW (23867e)

  10. I’ve got mixed feelings here. The term “Redskins” was chosen to sound fierece, not to insult anyone, just as the Cleveland Indians chose their name to be fierce. It’s not like the Detroit Lions selected their name to insult lions, although it turns out they did insult lions.
    Then again — the term “redskin” is derogatory, and not just in the eye of the beholder. It was never meant as much of a compliment.
    I also dislike strong-arming by government agencies.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  11. The team should change its name … to the Maryland Redskins.

    aunursa (7014a8)

  12. The difference is that I embrace the foolish hate-filled jackass Congressmen who what the Redskin name removed, but I also embrace the “Redskin” name too.
    You see I believe in inclusiveness, these Congressmen are just full of shit.

    Neo (d1c681)

  13. I really don’t have mixed feelings. Naming sports teams after Indian tribes isn’t racist. We name sports teams after the Fighting Irish, the Trojans, the Vikings, etc.

    But if Indian tribes object, I say fine. Why name a sports team after a bunch of losers anyway?

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  14. More government sticking it’s nose into areas they have no business interfering with. These losers need to be voted out of office.

    Owain (395e00)

  15. Hockey is still doing good in Chicago. The Africanamericanhawks won their series last night and will be playing against the Los Angeles Patriarchicaloppressors.

    nk (875f57)

  16. Chief Illiniwek is not available for comment.

    elissa (41c1d1)

  17. nk–the Blackhawks have the most remarkable, colorful and beautifully designed jerseys in all of professional sports. They play purty good hockey, too.

    elissa (41c1d1)

  18. And the Redskins’ owner, Daniel Snyder, is widely considered to be one of the biggest horse’s asses in all of professional sports, so it’s hard to feel sorry for him here, except on general principle.

    JVW (23867e)

  19. Then again — the term “redskin” is derogatory, and not just in the eye of the beholder. It was never meant as much of a compliment.

    So the team named itself after an insult?

    Rob Crawford (e6f27f)

  20. It’s just ten members! This won’t get through Congress, especially because it has a bill of attaonder type of taint around it. Many college sports teams have resisted.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  21. Call them Red Coats, that’s the direction we’re going.

    narciso (3fec35)

  22. I’d like to confess to being a ‘Racist’.

    Charles Curran (78e0c1)

  23. Tampa Bay has the Buccaneers, how about Bandits?
    Though I would put it in a fan contest like nk suggested.

    One could get the IRS to make sure all votes were cast by genuine washington profootballteam fans.

    hearkening to a different age and sport:
    Washington (Tax and) Spendators

    hey, if we come up with a name can we claim it,sell rights, and let the boss fund the site for eternity or until the end of the world, whichever comes first?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  24. How about the Washington Same Sex Marriages? Does that pass PC muster?

    Patricia (be0117)

  25. In what way is “redskin” racist? How does saying that someone has a reddish hue imply that they are inferior?

    CrustyB (d4da92)

  26. @18 – Rob and @24 – CrustyB: as I said in my comment, the people who originally named the team meant to convey fiereceness. I’ll go further and say they meant it to call to mind the fighting tradition of most First American/Native American/Indian nations.
    But the term “redskin” as used through the 20th C in movies and books has a derogatory tinge to it. You usually heard something like “…those filthy redskins…” Not everyone agrees and not even all Indians agree about that.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  27. I guess they could change the name to warriors and leave the logo and everything the same. It would connotate fierceness without the baggage.
    But that hasn’t been enough for some, such as ND changing the name from “Fighting Sioux”

    Though I think something like the Windbags or bandits or spendators would be more appropriate.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  28. How about the Washington Skins with a shirtless football player as the logo.

    AZ Bob (7d2a2c)

  29. So if you become successful and your company’s success dates back to a time when words had different meanings…you can then be subjected to punitive actions by the government because the society changed around you.

    Have a gay day and throw another faggot on the fire.

    NaBr (a094a6)

  30. How about the DC Peterpuffers? or the Bethesda Bulldykes? would pull in a lot of gay support, no?

    John Cunningham (a104b8)

  31. I don’t think the ten Congressbutthurts can retroactively change any Redskin trademarks that have become final (five? years). They might be able to object to new designs that contain the word “Redskin”.

    nk (875f57)

  32. Heh.

    Years ago, someone got a bug up their ass about Washington’s basketball team, the Washington Bullets. They decided to change the name and solicited input from the community, saying that they didn’t want their basketball team associated with a word that encouraged crime and violence.

    Several people took them to heart and suggested they change the name to the Baltimore Bullets.

    Alas, we ended up with the Washington Wizards.

    Semper Why (c8cf70)

  33. I’d like to confess to being a ‘Racist’.
    ~ Charles Curran

    Consider yourself shunned.

    tek (2063de)

  34. I don’t like some races either. The 100 meter especially annoys me.

    nk (875f57)

  35. Comment by Semper Why (c8cf70) — 5/30/2013 @ 1:21 pm

    That was good, thank you.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  36. shunned? I’ve been married 38 years, no big deal.

    Charles Curran (78e0c1)

  37. I sure am glad that all of America’s problems are solved so that the Democrats can focus on righting the truly great wrongs – a politically incorrect sports team name.

    SPQR (79d119)

  38. I remember reading one of these cases in Remedies (I think it was Harjo) and laughing about the irony of censoring unwanted speech (the “Redskins” mark) by removing its trademark protection (theoretically allowing for the proliferation of its use).

    Leviticus (b98400)

  39. Comment by MT Geoff (a67ef4) — 5/30/2013 @ 8:16 am

    I can call you sir to your face and make it sound like an insult. Should we ban sir too?

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  40. Washington Redshirts.

    htom (412a17)

  41. 28. So if … your company’s success dates back to a time when words had different meanings … you can then be subjected to punitive actions by the government because the society changed around you.

    Comment by NaBr (a094a6) — 5/30/2013 @ 12:40 pm

    I dunno. Is the government going after the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund?

    aunursa (7014a8)

  42. Whatever they choose – will the new name of the cheerleader squad be “The Interns?”

    E.PWJ (1cedce)

  43. Wouldn’t this be a bill of attainder?

    Milhouse (3d0df0)

  44. the Washington Wide Receivers?

    Colonel Haiku (cdd0b7)

  45. Been down this road twice before. My high school’s (Class of ’81) team name was the Red Raiders. My college’s (Colgate ’85) was the Red Raiders as well. Neither are today.

    Captain Ned (401d83)

  46. I remember reading one of these cases in Remedies (I think it was Harjo) and laughing about the irony of censoring unwanted speech (the “Redskins” mark) by removing its trademark protection (theoretically allowing for the proliferation of its use).

    Dartmouth College dropped their nickname “Indians” years ago, due to the usual PC concerns. Apparently that brought about a whole rash of unauthorized Dartmouth Indians logo sportsware, favored by naughty fraternity boys and grumpy alums. Perhaps discontinuing the Redskins name and logo will have the same effect.

    JVW (23867e)

  47. Greetings:

    First they came for the Redskins.

    How long before they come for the Browns ???

    11B40 (516c02)

  48. Snyder should announce to those outrageously outraged Democrats that he’ll give them two options:

    1.) Keep the Redskins name as it is;

    2.) Change the name to the Washington Tea Partiers.

    Then just stand back and watch the fun reactions.

    John (81e958)

  49. Actually, I believe the Browns were named after coach Paul Brown, though I understand Brown himself didn’t like that and said the team was named after Joe Louis, the “Brown Bomber”.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  50. I’m in favor of changing it.

    To “The Guteaters”

    How you like me NOW, congresscritters?

    mojo (0583bf)

  51. “2.) Change the name to the Washington Tea Partiers.

    Then just stand back and watch the fun reactions.”

    It would likely be along the lines of “please proceed governor.”

    nick (595f9e)

  52. i’m white.
    so I’ve been a racist all of my 56 years.
    Maybe call them Ted Rall’s Washington House Negroes.

    Daniel Snyder will cave in soon and come up with something totally villainous like the Washington Frackers and their mascot can be an old black lady drinking a glass of black water

    SteveG (794291)

  53. Contrary to smug non-Indian bloggers; some Redskins do take offense. Racist, not sure? Offensive? Yes, especially happy feet’s remarks. My great- grandfather, Athabaskan Chief Nicholai Yuq’Hdnil’anen “Sky Reader” does not bring to mind casinos and rusted out cars. Not all Indian people object to Indian mascot caricatures….some do; liberal or no. But aren’t Indian people fun to demean when the occasion arises?

    dudeabides (00b2bf)

  54. No demeaning Indians isn’t all that much fun.
    And someone can always be found who takes offense.
    Personally I am offended by the Minnesota Viking caricature and the lack of Viking casinos.
    My Athabaskan relatives, however distant, would likely concur

    steveg (794291)

  55. Yes, someone can always be found to find offenses, a truism. My Grandfather from Oslo died many years ago so I can’t ask him his views on either the Minnesota Vikings or lack of casinos.

    dudeabides (00b2bf)

  56. Uhhh, do any actual Indians Native Americans — other than Elizabeth Warren, I suppose — actually object to the Washington Redskins?

    The raaaaacist Dana (3e4784)

  57. AZ Bob wrote:

    How about the Washington Skins with a shirtless football player as the logo.

    Can we extend this theme to the cheerleaders?

    The Dana with helpful suggestions (3e4784)

  58. Uhhh, yes they do object. These “overly-sensitive” Indian artists and scholars Sherman Alexie; Joy Harjo and David Treuer object. Your terse, smart-aleck rejoinder about Elizabeth Warren- Uhhh, she is not an American Indian…btw, I objected earlier…did I not state my own personal objection clearly? I know, your own heritage is relevant and you are not raaaaaacist, just waaay too gimmicky.

    dudeabides (199de6)

  59. I’m an actual Texan. should I be offended by Houston’s team name?

    BradnSA (f34a47)

  60. No, you’re a Texan and from a Confederate State, so you’re fair game.

    ropelight (f90ff6)

  61. @ropelight what if I was a Texan artist or scholar? that seems to carry more weight with some people around here.

    BradnSA (f34a47)

  62. “did I not state my own personal objection clearly?”

    – dudeabides

    No. You stated that “some Redskins take offense” and stated that your great-grandfather was an Athabascan chief. Was there a personal objection there?

    Leviticus (b98400)

  63. Was there a personal objection there? “Offensive? Yes” A direct personal objection. Artists and scholars do carry weight and esteem for many Texans and some people around here- like me…

    dudeabides (199de6)

  64. @ropelight I guess you don’t know very many Texans then, unless they are the south Austin variety.

    BradnSA (f34a47)

  65. Brad, I was 14 years old before I learned that damn and Yankee was 2 different words.

    ropelight (f90ff6)

  66. “Was there a personal objection there? “Offensive? Yes” A direct personal objection.”

    – dudeabides

    You automatically object to anything that’s offensive?

    Leviticus (b98400)

  67. Before ol’ Kaw-Liga gets his feathers fluffed, he should consider that’s a very slippery lodge pole he’s barking up.

    Once the Thinskins have been confined to a PC reservation how long will the firewater and the easy wampum flow from the Great White Father’s wikieup on the Potomac before the next PETA pecker’s pow-wow vows to put an end to the exploitation of Lions, and Tigers, and Bears. And, then there’s all those Anteaters and Banana Slugs being unceremoniously dissed daily.

    A nosey busybody’s work is never done.

    ropelight (f90ff6)

  68. USC better watch its a**. Just saying.

    Ionian Poetry Appreciation Society (875f57)

  69. ok, ignorant cuss…change the actual discussion into trite polemics…I’m not a “he” or an ‘Ol Kawa-liga (a favorite Hank Williams song)…I’m done with Accidentally Racist or Intentionally Ignorant snark vapors here….. so I’ll leave you with Olympic gold medalist, Billy May’s response to the debate, (from November 16, 2012 in The Omaha World Herald). Have a nice day and continue to splendor in your ignoble pap.

    Q: Over the past couple of decades, there have been times of controversy about the use of Indian names as mascots for schools and sports teams. How do you view those discussions?

    A: It becomes very trite. Sports for sports sake can be meaningless, but sports to empower can be sacred. If a university wants to empower or honor us, maybe they become an advocate for other things like convincing the bar association in their state to make Indian Law a full-fledged subject on their exams, not just one or two questions.

    All 50 states should have Indian Law as a bar exam subject, but only two states — New Mexico and Washington — require a proficiency in federal, state and Indian law, even though every year 2.5 to 20 percent of the cases before the United States Supreme Court pertain one way or another to tribal treaty rights. If mascots can be a way to make more people aware of changes like this that are needed, then it can be helpful.

    dudeabides (199de6)

  70. I am disappointed by most of the comments on this thread. Hating political correctness is one thing, and a sane thing at that. But openly mocking anyone who might be opposed to a racial slur — and in some cases, like happyfeet, furthering the insult — wow. Just, wow.

    I am an American Indian. I don’t find most Indian-related team names to be offensive, because they’re just not. Naming a team Indians, Chiefs, Braves, Warriors (very generic, anyway)…or Blackhawks, Seminoles, Illini, Sioux…I don’t understand how any reasonable person could find any of those offensive. If anything, they honor certain tribes and invoke the spirit of Indian peoples. I don’t approve of the fainting nonsense that leads people at schools like Dartmouth and Stanford to rename teams with perfectly fine names. And I would have no problem with Washington changing its moniker to something else Indian-related…like the Braves, which is what they were during the first season of their existence in Boston.

    But Redskins? That I understand being offended by. It has been a pejorative for decades now. Its use as a pejorative predates the football club’s rebranding in 1933. If you wouldn’t support a team being named the Nashville Niggers or the Brooklyn Dagos or the Miami Kikes, as I assume most of you wouldn’t, why on earth are you fine with this? Is it just that the Redskins name has been around for so long? So, you would be fine with the San Francisco Chinks if they were an already-established team…it’s just that we’ve missed our historical chance?

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  71. @ 67

    “Once the Thinskins have been confined to a PC reservation how long will the firewater and the easy wampum flow from the Great White Father’s wikieup on the Potomac before the next PETA pecker’s pow-wow vows to put an end to the exploitation of Lions, and Tigers, and Bears.”

    See, this is just ridiculous. (In addition to being deliberately offensive, but I’m sure the author would consider that a compliment.) Only a mind that has been in Oz for far too long could see a slippery slope proceeding from challenging an ethnically offensive team name to challenging animal-based names.

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  72. I wonder if Congress would try to make the state of Indiana change its name.

    Elephant Stone (8d2c6e)

  73. I am unequivocally and under no circumstances intending offense. Here are some suggestions for possible renames of the Redskin team. Hope no one sees these suggestions as demeaning:
    Goombah Destroyers
    White Trash Vermin
    Pinoy Houseboys
    Caucasian Tramp Losers
    Pretentious Fat Ass Honkies
    Coolie Opium Eaters
    Narrow-Minded Vulgar Gai-jins
    Springer Guest Hillbillies
    Spick Menials
    White Privileged Slapjackers
    Bad Back Mountain Dews
    Redneck Protohumans
    Trailer Park Mullets
    Insane Clown Ruble Heads
    McWop Grease Balls
    Uppity Afro-Saxons
    Bacon-Bit Hicks
    Blue-Eyed Devil Bohunks
    Clampett Ditchpigs
    Cracker Cavemen
    Bounty Hunter Goyims
    Provolone Soap Dodgers

    dudeabides (540956)

  74. Nice list, dudeabides. I note it doesn’t include any names of any actual sports teams.

    Which is why I’m on your side. If we’re going to name sports teams after noble warriors like the Spartans, what the hell are American Indians doing on the list?

    You’ve made your point. I don’t think any self-respecting team should name a team after an American Indian tribe.

    You win.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  75. Too prolix for the most part. Washington Wops? WASPs? Wetbacks? Is Scalpers also anti-Indian or would it remind people of stadium prices too much?

    nk (875f57)

  76. Most of those names are totally badass. If somebody starts a pro football team called the “Redneck Protohumans,” I’m buying season tickets. Or the “Trailer Park Mullets.” Or the “Provolone Soap Dodgers.”

    In fact, I might use one of those as my fantasy football team name this season. I was gonna go with “AstroVandals,” but now I dunno…

    At the very least, there are about a dozen viable band names in there.

    Leviticus (2c236c)

  77. 70. …But Redskins? That I understand being offended by. It has been a pejorative for decades now. Its use as a pejorative predates the football club’s rebranding in 1933..

    Comment by Demosthenes (26b143) — 6/1/2013 @ 7:56 am

    Really? What evidence do you have of that? Because apparently the Redskin name was chosen in honor of a coach who (may not have been, but was believed to be) was part Sioux.

    I keep hearing of this anti-Indian bigotry that was supposedly rife at the time but I see little evidence of it.

    Somebody needs to look up the history of Torpedo Squadron 8. It’s about the anniversary of when it was nearly wiped out at Midway on June 4, 1942. The squadron leader who was killed in the attack on the Japanese carriers was John C. Waldron. He was Ogalala Lakota on his mothers side. He had quarreled with his flight lead because he didn’t think they were heading in the right direction. Then he headed off on his own. His squadron followed to their deaths. All except George Gay who ended up getting rescued after his plane was shot down.

    In addition to his shipmates following him to their deaths because he was a fine aviator and squadron commander, they told themselves the skipper would find the enemy because of his Sioux instincts.

    Racists? All of them? Like the football players who thought they were honoring their coach 10 years earlier?

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  78. They found the Japanese carriers by the way.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  79. The Washington Deadskins.

    RickZ (9e1d9e)

  80. You guys do know, right, that the biggest Indian tribe in the United States right now is called Mexicans?

    nk (875f57)

  81. I should write to Rubio and Menendez. Mexicans and Canadians who can establish ancestry from an American Indian tribe with whom we still have treaties, should get automatic US citizenship.

    nk (875f57)

  82. — wow. Just, wow.

    yeah i get that a lot.

    What has been done on your people is criminal Mr. Demosthenes

    I did me a pilgrimage last year to go see America and like any good pilgrim I encountered numerous american indian folk. I saw how the oneida live in new york and how the cherokee live in north carolina – omg the childhood obesity alone is heartwrenching

    but the worstest of all is the navajo in new mexico

    good god the horror

    and people are worried about a football team name?

    It’s silly I think.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  83. If not automatic citizenship then at least a coupon for a free drink at the bar.

    ropelight (4f41a9)

  84. @ 77

    “I keep hearing of this anti-Indian bigotry that was supposedly rife at the time but I see little evidence of it.”

    So, you’ve never been to a reservation? You’ve never read about Indian schools, which were meant to kill off native languages and cultures? It’s not my fault that you’ve failed to learn American history.

    “In addition to his shipmates following him to their deaths because he was a fine aviator and squadron commander, they told themselves the skipper would find the enemy because of his Sioux instincts. Racists? All of them? Like the football players who thought they were honoring their coach 10 years earlier?”

    What do you want me to say? Benign racism is still racism. “I knew he could solve that equation because of his Chinese heritage” is still a racist thing to say. I’m not calling into question the feelings and intentions of the people who renamed the then-Boston Braves. I don’t think they were bad people. I think they were men of their time, a time when it was still acceptable to use the word “redskin” in public. But it’s not that time anymore. It hasn’t been for decades.

    @ 82

    “I saw how the oneida live in new york and how the cherokee live in north carolina…”

    There is no THE Oneida anymore. There is also no THE Cherokee. There are four Oneida tribal groups (only one of which is in New York) and three Cherokee tribal groups (only one of which is in North Carolina), and those are just counting the ones recognized by the American and Canadian national governments. Don’t assume just because you’ve met a few Indians in a few places that you know everything.

    “and people are worried about a football team name?”

    This is the biggest cop-out line in debates like these. Why not turn your attention to some real problems? How dare you be offended by a word when there are real people who are really suffering? I have three responses to you:

    First, what makes you assume I’m not trying to help?

    Second, if you’re trying to shame me into silence by pointing out other problems, what are YOU doing to solve them, since you care so much, you great humanitarian?

    And third, what makes you think we can only try to solve one problem at a time, and we can only tackle them in a specific order? Do you have such a low opinion of the capabilities of humanity?

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  85. Demosthenes, I’m looking forward to the Washington Redskins being forced to change their name – so that way, the oppression of the native americans will be stricken from our timeline and will have never happened. Like in Star Trek…

    SPQR (79d119)

  86. to help solve the problem number one before i approach an indian reservation I make sure i have a full tank of gas so i do not end up in any small way subsidizing these horrific gulag-like monstrosities

    my whole life I haven’t spent a dime in an indian casino

    also when I came back from my journeys I told everyone about the horrific plight of the native american peoples

    mostly here and at the p wizzle site

    I stand ready to be of further assistance. If someone would start an underground railroad to liberate people from the hopelessness of the squalid reservations on which they are trapped I would write checks every year I promise.

    It’s just ghastly how we allow this to persist is why.

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  87. This is just not congress’ business which is the part many/most of us are reacting to, I think. Same with the NHL, Big Ten and other “oversight” orgs who have no business in this.

    Demosthenes, however, has come here as a native American, and for the most part has cordially outlined for us his understanding of the ways in which many team names past and present using Indian references are/were fine and even good and noble reminders of the characteristics and heritage of native Americans. I think he and I might possibly even agree on Chief Illinwek. :)

    I can see, though, why he reasonably views “Redskins” differently than, say Blackhawks, Warriors or Braves. I thank him for participating in this discussion.

    elissa (7e0bc5)

  88. also I agree with Mr. newrouter that it is time to dismantle the fascist and amoral “department of indian affairs”

    this anachronism is our fascist whore government’s primary tool what it uses to further the debasement of the native american peoples

    it has to stop

    http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=49409#comment-987781

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  89. So, Demosthenes, it is “racism” to acknowledge the existence of culture? Because all culture is are ways of looking at the world and of doing things.

    “I knew he could solve that equation because of his Chinese heritage”

    The fact of the matter is being steeped in Chinese heritage will make you better at doing some things than others who are not. Regardless of race. Unless of course you subscribe to the schizophrenic idea that different ethnicities represent diversity while at the same time insisting that every culture is exactly equal in all ways.

    I’ve hunted in Africa a few times. Some tribes produce brilliant hunters. But (assuming current licensing laws didn’t make this impossible) I wouldn’t pick a Nama taxi driver in downtown Windhoek or a Zulu shopkeeper in Bulawayo as a guide or tracker over a white guy who grew up among those tribes out in the bush.

    Had Waldron been born and raised in New York city his shipmates wouldn’t have trusted his “Sioux instincts.” He wouldn’t have had any to trust. But he wasn’t. He was born and raised in North Dakota.

    And yes I’ve been to reservations and thanks for the history lesson. So what’s next on your agenda? A campaign to change the Cleveland Browns name because it’s clearly racist against brown people when they were named to honor Paul Brown?

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  90. I keep hearing of this anti-Indian bigotry that was supposedly rife at the time but I see little evidence of it.

    Also, explain to me the “racism” involved when a group of football players name their team in honor of their coach to show solidarity with him?

    Watching the Elizabeth Warren tale as it evolved makes me doubt that Indian descent was all that stigmatizing in the general time frame we’re talking about (1930s and ’40s). But for the sake of argument I’ll concede that it was. Anti-Indian bigotry was rife.

    So wasn’t it courageous for these football players to name the team “Redskins” in honor of their coach in defiance of that bigotry?

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  91. @ 85

    SPQR, usually you’re one of the best people on any thread. Not on this issue, I guess.

    @ 87

    Thank you, elissa. You’re right, by the way. I certainly don’t view Chief Illiniwek as a hostile mascot (though I’m not a fan of his dancing). And I think the NCAA has been ridiculous in its hair-splitting throughout this whole process. Seeing “Savages” and “Redskins” eliminated was fine, but I categorically deny that any of the other names were offensive. North Dakota having to give up the Sioux name, in particular, saddens me greatly.

    I have specifically avoided addressing the question of whether Congress should be playing a role in this particular issue — mostly because I was driven to distraction by some really depressing commentary, and partly because I actually don’t know whether the NFL would fall under their jurisdiction on this issue (like Major League Baseball would). So I guess I need to say that as a believer in limited government, I of course do not want Congress meddling in issues that should fall outside their purview, no matter what my feelings would otherwise be on the specific issues in question. I trust that will make the real target of my objections clear.

    @ happyfeet

    So, you won’t spend money in Indian casinos. Casinos that are run by the tribes, and where tribal citizens would usually get either a cut of the profits or services paid for by those profits. And you use this as an example of how you’re helping Indians. Right. Because when I want to show people who own and work at businesses how much I care about them, I stop spending money there.

    And setting aside any feelings I might have about them, it’s the BUREAU of Indian Affairs. I mean, newrouter even correctly said “bureau,” and you still didn’t get it right. My God. I give up.

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  92. Demosthenes-
    I haven’t followd this thread closely, but a few thoughts:
    1) try to never let happyfeet make you angry or take him too seriously; I am sure that you, like me, have better things to do with your time
    2) we have the same opinion about ND giving up the name “Fighting Sioux”. I thought it was a good sports team name, as a Wisconsin alum who remembered the hockey rivalry with ND being more intense than with Minnesota while I was there.
    (Badgers vs Gophers, that wasn’t a contest unless it was about which mascot could dig a hole in the ground faster)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  93. I thought Washington’s NFL franchise was named after the potato, but nobody tells me anything.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  94. I apologize for saying Department instead of Bureau. I have always felt it is very important to always say Bureau when something is a Bureau and not say Department instead of Bureau.

    If it helps I hardly ever spend money in real casinos either. I bought a fruit cup and a soda for like $12 at the Beau Rivage in Biloxi last October or so is the last I can remember, unless you count trips to vegas for work and that one time I went for a wedding that didn’t end up happening.

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  95. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 6/2/2013 @ 11:33 am

    I think would be more likely for a team based in Boise or Portland (ME).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  96. Oh, good God, Steve. Seriously? Are you honestly trying to defend the proposition that being Asian necessarily makes one better at math? Or that being raised on a North Dakota reservation makes one better at FINDING SHIPS AT SEA? (Because that is what you’re talking about, and make no mistake. Sioux instincts, yeesh. The “Indian in tune with nature” is akin to the “Magic Negro,” and here you are honest-to-God defending it. I could cry.)

    “Unless of course you subscribe to the schizophrenic idea that different ethnicities represent diversity while at the same time insisting that every culture is exactly equal in all ways.”

    I do not subscribe to either portion of that idea. Different ethnicities can sometimes indicate the presence of diversity, but they do not always do so. A white person who grew up in the Hamptons and went to Andover Prep has more in common with a black person of the same background than with a white person who grew up in the Nevada desert. And it should be plainly obvious that no culture is “exactly equal” to any other. Anyone who says otherwise, to either part of your idea, is peddling the worst sort of progressive claptrap.

    “I wouldn’t pick a Nama taxi driver in downtown Windhoek or a Zulu shopkeeper in Bulawayo as a guide or tracker over a white guy who grew up among those tribes out in the bush.”

    Neither would I. Do you know why? Because what counts is the individual’s experience and background, not their race. Hiring a Jewish accountant because he has an excellent professional background and good recommendations is unproblematic. Hiring a Jewish accountant because he’s Jewish, and Jews know about money and such, is clearly anti-Semitic.

    I assume you’ll agree with all of that. Yet here you are, defending a choice of mascot for a team that reduces an entire group of people to a single characteristic — moreover, one that has been used as an ethnic slur. And your only defense is that it was meant to honor an individual? So what? Does that mean we should start calling Herman Cain a “credit to his race”? Do you not see that what you’re doing is treating race as a defining feature?

    So what’s next on your agenda? A campaign to change the Cleveland Browns name because it’s clearly racist against brown people when they were named to honor Paul Brown?

    Since I know the history behind the name, and since the history has nothing to do with race, why would I lobby to change it? I’d as soon try to change the Harold Bartle-inspired Kansas City Chiefs as I would the Cleveland Browns. I’ll happily lobby against Chief Wahoo, though.

    “Watching the Elizabeth Warren tale as it evolved makes me doubt that Indian descent was all that stigmatizing in the general time frame we’re talking about (1930s and ’40s).”

    Then maybe you should hear some of the stories I hear on a regular basis from people trying to investigate their own heritage and culture. “We knew our grandmother was Indian, but she would never talk about her upbringing or her culture.” “Our parents didn’t teach us any of the language growing up, because they didn’t want us to stick out. They just wanted us to be normal.” And this is in Oklahoma.

    As for that race-exploiting mindless liberal you mentioned, I’ll thank you never to mention her around me. The only good thing about her being a United States Senator is that she got elected from Massachusetts — which means that Oklahomans like me can officially wash our hands of her.

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  97. Mr. Dr. is just mad cause of stuff I said prior to the stuff what I said today Mr. Demosthenes.

    I think it had to do with –

    oh crap I forgot

    something about…

    oh jeez no clue

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  98. Demosthenes, I took Steve57’s story about Lt. Cmdr. Waldron to be a reference to the fact that his indian heritage was valued rather than scorned. (Its a fascinating story in the Midway battle legend, BTW).

    SPQR (79d119)

  99. I understood that, SPQR. As I said earlier, benign racism is still racism. As I also said earlier, I refuse to pass moral judgment on men who came from a different time with different social standards.

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  100. The “Indian in tune with nature”

    Especially the Blackjack dealers and Bingo Callers

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  101. Oh, good God, Steve. Seriously? Are you honestly trying to defend the proposition that being Asian necessarily makes one better at math? Or that being raised on a North Dakota reservation makes one better at FINDING SHIPS AT SEA? (Because that is what you’re talking about, and make no mistake. Sioux instincts, yeesh. The “Indian in tune with nature” is akin to the “Magic Negro,” and here you are honest-to-God defending it. I could cry.)

    I was not doing any of those things and you know it. I didn’t say that being Asian made one better at math any more than I said being Nama or Zulu made one a better hunter. You seemed to grasp the latter points so why did you miss the first so badly? I thought the words “regardless of race” when I discussed how being steeped in a Chinese cultural heritage (cultures, actually) would in fact give one an advantage in solving certain problems than if one had a different cultural backgrounds.

    I don’t know what it is in you that makes you immediately associate Chinese with math. When I mentioned solving problems I was thinking primarily problems of warfare. Which is why I mentioned Waldron. And yes, navigation is a transferable skill. All really the really good hunters I’ve known have an excellent sense of direction. You still have the sun and the stars to guide you no matter if you’re on land or over water, even if you’re not consciously aware of it (just as a qualified attack or fighter pilot doesn’t think about flying the plane but rather fighting the plane).

    But getting back to culture, you can say for instance that Roman culture produced excellent heavy infantry but it wasn’t much of a “horse culture” so it didn’t produce good cavalry. Not in the quantities they needed to solve the problems they encountered. For that they needed allies and auxiliaries. The same thing with archers and slingers. They had to turn to other cultures for light missile-armed forces as well.

    Because what counts is the individual’s experience and background, not their race.

    Individuals from different cultures will have different experiences and backgrounds. This is a fact, and it’s fatal not to acknowledge it. This is one of if not the about the elitist approach to the “war on terror” we’re taking. “We are all the same.” No we’re not, but apparently in this PC world being multicultural requires we don’t actually bother to learn about other cultures.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  102. stop being benign Mr. daley he doesn’t like it when you do that

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  103. “I don’t know what it is in you that makes you immediately associate Chinese with math.”

    “stop being benign Mr. daley he doesn’t like it when you do that”

    And with both those comments, I suddenly realize that I have better things to do with my time than to beat my virtual head against some very thick skulls.

    Demosthenes (26b143)

  104. it’s like he had an epiphany

    I always wanted me one of them

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  105. What do you want me to say? Benign racism is still racism.

    No, it isn’t. Or, if it is, then there’s nothing wrong with racism.

    Milhouse (3d0df0)

  106. Cancelling a sports mascot or team name and calling it a day also cancels out many historical woes, who knew? No Trail Of Tears, no ghost dances, No service refusal at Anchorage restaurants for my young aunt’s….all’s well then! Franchisors, thank you SO much for erasing so easily several centuries of a dark history. Wow- thanks!

    Disrespectful sports team mascots as a specific issue is not of paramount significance; per se—no one asserted that it is. The rub comes when haole wasi’chu post high-spirited disparaging insults since it’s fun, innit? Chief Pilgrim Happyfoot must have got a lot of blisters seeking so many hapless overweight Indian and other heartwrenching horrors during his enlightening pilgrimages. I know….no impolite affront was intended.

    dudeabides (e054b5)

  107. “I knew he could solve that equation because of his Chinese heritage”

    The fact of the matter is being steeped in Chinese heritage will make you better at doing some things than others who are not.

    A Chinese friend recently argued to me, convincingly, that it’s the Chinese language that makes Chinese better at maths. It’s well established that one’s mother tongue shapes one’s brain, e.g. native Russian speakers distinguish shades of blue better than do native English speakers. According to my friend, the Chinese language is inherently better suited than any other to an intuitive grasp of numbers, and thus anyone who grows up speaking it as his mother tongue will have a natural advantage in maths.

    Milhouse (3d0df0)

  108. Hiring a Jewish accountant because he’s Jewish, and Jews know about money and such, is clearly anti-Semitic.

    No, it’s philosemitic. Irrationally so, but it’s your money at risk.

    Milhouse (3d0df0)

  109. Yes. I hear “Pythagorean theorem” and in my thick-sculled way I don’t immediately think “Chinese.”

    How awful of me.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  110. The Chinese had the Pythagorean Theorem, perhaps before Pythagoras.

    Milhouse (3d0df0)

  111. Demosthenes, oddly – the fact that your argument fails to persuade is not probative evidence that the listener has the thick skull.

    SPQR (f86098)

  112. A Chinese friend recently argued to me, convincingly, that it’s the Chinese language that makes Chinese better at math…

    It could be true, Milhouse. But it supports my argument that culture does matter.

    Which is why I argued that if one grew up with a Chinese cultural heritage that cultural heritage would, regardless of race, prepare one to view the world differently and would prepare one to solve some problems better than others.

    I think that’s more visible when looking at military history, as warfare is a large social endeavor and that’s when differences in culture are extremely evident.

    But it’s also evident in other areas. Such as on this comment thread. I talk about culture, people immediately think “race.” This is typical of our race-obsessed, guilt-ridden, self-flagellating culture. I don’t even believe in the concept of race. It’s a figment of our imagination. If we’re dividing up the human race into subcategories we can have as many or as few as we like. But cultures are real. Yet it’s reality we deny and the figments of our imagination we cling to.

    Hence our foreign policy in general, and our strategy on the “War on Terror” in particular.

    This is a defect in our culture. Hence my attitude toward changing the name from Washington Redskins to something else. Whether one chooses to take offense is a choice anyone can make. But just because some people choose to take offense doesn’t mean the name was intended to insult Indians.

    I don’t see how anyone can argue that. Either the term was benign when they named their team after their coach, or they intended to insult the bigots who would discriminate against their coach by throwing the word back in their faces by wearing it with pride. But either way, how is that an insult to Indians?

    I just don’t see where the tidal wave of rewriting our history will end as long as our dysfunctional culture drives us to do all this navel gazing.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  113. 110. The Chinese had the Pythagorean Theorem, perhaps before Pythagoras.

    Comment by Milhouse (3d0df0) — 6/2/2013 @ 1:15 pm

    I don’t doubt that. Different people often come to the same conclusions in different parts of the world independently. But it doesn’t invalidate my point.

    Although I do have to admit I do think the Chinese produce better mathematicians than we do. But I don’t attribute that to race. I attribute that to the fact we mandate our schools to devote valuable time to teaching LGBT history or social justice whereas Chinese schools don’t.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  114. Polite society can withstand a football team of long tradition harkening back to talent and ferocity and spirit, even if we did rename all the crayolas for no good reason. Ca plane pour moi.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  115. per Sarah W.’s request, some Plastique Bertrand…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsXknE8LOEI

    Colonel Haiku (26d2f9)

  116. and this one’s for nk…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v98HEQvtpgo

    Colonel Haiku (26d2f9)

  117. 110.The Chinese had the Pythagorean Theorem, perhaps before Pythagoras.

    Every civilization that built did, thousands of years before Pythagoras. To get a right angle builders and carpenters measured 3 on one side and 4 on another and knew it was perfectly square (90 degrees) if the diagonal between those two points was 5. We still do it today. Pythagoras tried to generalize it to every number and almost succeeded except where the sides of the triangle each measure 1. The square of 1 is 1 and 1+1=2 and the square root of 2 is an irrational number.

    nk who is Greek and also does building things stuff (875f57)

  118. 114. Polite society can withstand a football team of long tradition harkening back to talent and ferocity and spirit, even if we did rename all the crayolas for no good reason. Ca plane pour moi.

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 6/2/2013 @ 1:36 pm

    I couldn’t have said it better. So the question is, do we have a polite society?

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  119. “I am an American Indian”

    Yeah, well me too and I could care less if the term Redskins is used as the name of a football team And I don’t see it as being pejoratively used. Considering the endless problems of the Native Americans face in 2013, this issue seems to be trivial at best.

    First, “squaw bread” is deemed offensive to the culturally sensitive and it gets changed instead “anadama bread”, And now Redskins is culturally insensitive and will likely be changed…. Which leads me to the question why we are not good enough for the masses these days??

    Dana (292dcf)

  120. Binney & Smith’s Crayola crayons were not exempt:: “”Colors have been renamed through the years. In 1958, Prussian Blue was renamed Midnight Blue. The color known as Flesh was renamed Peach in 1962, partially in response to the U.S. Civil Rights Movement. Indian Red was renamed Chestnut in 1999 due to concern that some children thought the crayon color represented the skin color of Native Americans. According to the company, however, the name originally referred to a reddish-brown pigment from India that is used in artists’ oil paint.””

    Yeah, waxy crayon names are analogous to the debate and no belittling effect on certain people from North America intended ….This somewhat fey Crayon colors comparison does work and those talented, ferocious and spirited teams makes it less offensive, I see now. A whimsical homage. A pejorative term that can harken back to a long tradition rankles so much less.

    Throw in a french phrase and likable Belgian new wave band and voile……..problem solved. I get it now. Put it in the vault of: What White People Like. A hearty congratulations on your biased-free self-assurances! C’est la vie mon amie. Redskins is a wholly complimentary and honorary name. Case closed.

    dudeabides (e054b5)

  121. As Shakespeare famously wrote in some play called ‘Romeo and Juliet,’ “A Washington Redskin by any other name is still a Washington Redskin.”

    Elephant Stone (6c9e0c)

  122. I guess the Boston Celtics will be excused on account of fat pipe-smoking leprechaun privilege.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  123. Throw in a french phrase and likable Belgian new wave band and voile…

    That’d be “voilà.”

    Anything I can do to help, let me know. Except leaning on the Washington Redskins to change their name. That’s out of the question.

    Steve57 (9b1cdb)

  124. Thanks, a matter of time before the spelling, punctuation, semantic or change-the-subject Police rope off the scene to be helpful…. I did misidentify Billy Mills yesterday as Billy Mays…doh.

    Whatever your stripes the fervor from protesters and admirers will continue. I fully understand and agree it is not of paramount important or urgency. I do predict that the name change will occur within a few years. A hunch. So….Go Redskins…literally!

    dudeabides (e054b5)

  125. importance

    dudeabides (e054b5)

  126. The light at the end of his rope wrote:

    Brad, I was 14 years old before I learned that damn and Yankee was 2 different words.

    They are? When did that happen?

    The Southern boy Dana (af9ec3)


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