Patterico's Pontifications

4/20/2013

Report: FBI Told Bomber’s Family They Knew He Was an “Extremist Leader”

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:55 pm



Daily Mail:

One of the brothers suspected of the Boston Marathon bombings had direct contact with Chechen terrorists – and was ‘monitored’ by investigators for five years.

The Mail on Sunday has learned that the FBI put Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, under surveillance after receiving an explicit warning from the Russian intelligence services.

But despite apparently telling his mother that Tamerlan was an ‘extremist’ leader, the FBI eventually discounted the possibility that he was a threat.

This is apparently why Russia contacted us about him:

Despite all this, the FBI found no substantive evidence that he was engaged in terror-related activities though they continued to ‘monitor his internet use and contacts’.

According to an intelligence source, Russia remained convinced that Tamerlan, an ethnic Chechen, was in ‘direct contact’ with Islamist militants, most likely based in the strife-torn southern Russian region of Dagestan, where he lived for two years with his family prior to moving to the US.

. . . .

Yesterday the brothers’ mother, Zubeidat, said the FBI once told her that Tamerlan was ‘really an extremist leader and that they were afraid of him’. She added: ‘He was controlled by the FBI for five years. They knew what my son was doing. They were following every step of his.’

And his father, Anzor Tsarnaev, said investigators warned his son: ‘We know what sites you are on, we know where you are calling, we know everything about you. Everything. We are checking and watching.’

I’m taking this with a grain of salt right now, but the idea that he may have escaped deportation — and definitely was the subject of an inquiry from the Russian government, and made a six-month trip to Russia that apparently raised no red flags:

The significance of the trip was magnified late Friday when the F.B.I. disclosed in a statement that in 2011 “a foreign government” — now acknowledged by officials to be Russia — asked for information about Tamerlan. The request was “based on information that he was a follower of radical Islam and a strong believer, and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the United States for travel to the country’s region to join unspecified underground groups.”

The senior law enforcement official said the Russians feared he could be a risk, and “they had something on him and were concerned about him, and him traveling to their region.” Chechen extremists pose a greater threat to Russia than they do to the United States, counterterrorism specialists say, though some of the groups have had ties to Al Qaeda.

But the F.B.I. never followed up on Tamerlan once he returned, a senior law enforcement official acknowledged on Saturday, adding that its investigation did not turn up anything and it did not have the legal authority to keep tabs on him.

Now, the “extremist leader” comment may have been an empty threat — an interrogation technique. But the whole report raises questions that need to be answered.

Time to drag out Hil in front of the cameras to ask: WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

We have four dead Americans!!!!1!! What difference, at this point, does it make that we totally overlooked a ton of red flags? AAAAAUUGH! OUTRAGE!!!1!!

I guess we’ll find out if the Kabuki works again.

151 Responses to “Report: FBI Told Bomber’s Family They Knew He Was an “Extremist Leader””

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. these are the same losers we’re supposed to trust on the border security promised in roobs’ immigration scheme

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  3. As a former theatre professional, I should object to the use of the honored term “Kabuki”, a particular style of practiced art, to describe the farting, flailing, and falling of politicians. They’d be booed off the stage.

    htom (412a17)

  4. I stand by my previous comment that there is a culture at the FBI (and possibly throughout the Intell Community) that is one of denial, and that it has gotten Americans killed, and will continue to do so until it is routed out like the cancer it is!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  5. Gatewaypundit also has links to a Mirror article expounding on this loser family, with parents who are “political activists.” I think we would call them terrorists.

    Why do we have to read British papers to get this stuff? Is the MSM so in the tank they are burying the existence of AQ?

    I’m sure the FBI is so scared of being called racists that they didn’t follow through.

    Patricia (be0117)

  6. We’re in the ‘best of all possible hands’

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/boston-bombers-fbi-hunting-12-strong-1844844

    narciso (3fec35)

  7. Just another innocent religious student.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  8. The f.b.i. is a cesspool of knowledge.

    mg (31009b)

  9. Time to drag out Hil in front of the cameras to ask: WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

    Besides, it was a case of workplace violence.

    Mark (6d6213)

  10. I’m sure the FBI is so scared of being called racists that they didn’t follow through.

    And the socio-political situation in this day and age has become so absurd, you’re not necessarily being sarcastic.

    Mark (6d6213)

  11. We’re in the ‘best of all possible hands’

    I wonder how reliable is the newspaper you have a link to, because the following runs counter to at least one other article I’ve read that claimed just the opposite.

    A source close to the investigation said: “We have no doubt the brothers were not acting alone. The devices used to detonate the two bombs were highly sophisticated and not the kind of thing people learn from Google.

    “They were too advanced. Someone gave the brothers the skills and it is now our job to find out just who they were. Agents think the sleeper cell has up to a dozen members and has been waiting several years for their day to come.”

    Between the foolishness of the MSM and the foolishness of our Nidal-Hasan-ized government, I don’t know who or what to believe.

    Mark (6d6213)

  12. two bombs were highly sophisticated and not the kind of thing people learn from Google.

    Earlier reports were that the pressure cooker bomb design was on line in the Al Queda Inspire magazine.

    slp (aa6b95)

  13. It’s called irony, Mark, we’ve seen this kind of foolishness across the pond, after the 7/7 bombings.

    narciso (3fec35)

  14. every time I see her in that get up i think of the lucky charms elf

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  15. Why do we have to read British papers to get this stuff? Is the MSM so in the tank they are burying the existence of AQ?

    British media are notoriously careless with facts, worse than the American MSM. With the exception of a few trustworthy journalists there, it’s best to be very skeptical of anything from a British source.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (a58915)

  16. To me these failures scream passivity and the Democrats penchant for treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue: wait until a crime is committed, then make sure you build a solid legal case against the perps rather than being proactive. If we are lax in allowing people to stay in this country with sketchy activities, why should we be surprised at the results? What’s even scarier, though, is what level of incompetence does it take to have someone with the older brother’s background and a photo of him and not one member of the FBI or other entities makes a connection? It will be interesting to see if there was an institutional bias towards assuming the perps were home-grown terrorists played a role in ignoring what should have been right in front of the FBI’s nose.

    Dave C. (652cfc)

  17. Read the DHS memo, from four years ago, the West Point CTC report, from just a few months ago, the witchhunt that Ackerman wrought on all counter training manuals.

    narciso (3fec35)

  18. I’ll preface this comment by saying the Debkafile website does not have a sterling reputation for accuracy, but they are reporting that the brothers were double agents who betrayed their US-sponsored mission and joined the Islamists that they had been hired to infiltrate.

    This allegation needs to be thoroughly investigated by an independent source. What are the odds that will happen?

    Brothers Were Double Agents

    JAH (38ea9e)

  19. 3.As a former theatre professional, I should object to the use of the honored term “Kabuki”, a particular style of practiced art, to describe the farting, flailing, and falling of politicians. They’d be booed off the stage.

    Comment by htom (412a17) — 4/20/2013 @ 7:12 pm

    Noh way!

    Steve57 (da9e0e)

  20. 9.Time to drag out Hil in front of the cameras to ask: WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

    Besides, it was a case of workplace sportsplace violence.

    Comment by Mark (6d6213) — 4/20/2013 @ 7:50 pm

    FTFY.

    I’m sure the Feds will have that previously unknown phenomenon prominently displayed in their after-action report. What the Tsarnaev brothers did was really no different than angry parents rushing the field to chew out an umpire who called their kid out or attempting to assault a coach who won’t put their kid in the basketball game.

    Just like I’m sure that MAJ Nidal Hasan’s lawyers will argue that their client suffered the first known case of Pre-Post Traumatic Stress Disorder due to a pending deployment.

    Steve57 (da9e0e)

  21. I don’t know who these innocent religious students were rooting for in the Marathon, but clearly they didn’t like the result.

    Steve57 (da9e0e)

  22. I, too, would take much of what’s in the article with a shovel full of salt. Especially since much of it seems to be coming from the mom. It’s clearly self-serving claptrap to support the contention that her precious dears must be innocent since the FBI were all over them.

    She added: ‘He was controlled by the FBI for five years. They knew what my son was doing. They were following every step of his.’

    Clearly the whole thing is a set-up.

    Steve57 (da9e0e)

  23. Yes, there’s a touch of Ryazan fever*, in those remarks, but there was something to this,

    * the Russian precursor to 9/11 denialism, where Putin is alleged to have ‘framed’ the Chechens, in order to justify the war.

    narciso (3fec35)

  24. I have a comment in moderation. Hopefully it will appear tomorrow.

    NJRob (fe68e7)

  25. “Just like I’m sure that MAJ Nidal Hasan’s lawyers will argue that their client suffered the first known case of Pre-Post Traumatic Stress Disorder due to a pending deployment.”

    Steve57 – We actually had a troll commenter here who claimed to suffer from that malady, but not from his own deployment.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  26. Here is a Debka conspiracy theory… I would dismiss it out of hand, but then I think back over the last five years and I start to wonder if there is any merit to this.

    EBL (f71fce)

  27. I find it interesting how we take Russia seriously when it suits us, and dismiss them utterly when it does not.

    LYT (a22fc9)

  28. We dismiss them in Syria and Libya, and Egypt, because they are in competition with the Saudi and Qatari clients in that area, in Iran, with Poland,
    and other places, we give them a free hand.

    narciso (3fec35)

  29. Back to the Future… The problem is not the FBI. By returning to the law enforcement approach to terrorism we return to all the same problems and debates we had pre-9/11. Pesky things like rights and probable cause ensure that prevention of acts of mass murder become nearly impossible unless LE identifies and entraps the potential bad actors. The reality is there are always going to be monsters among us. The difficulty is identifying who the monsters are and how to stop them without destroying our freedoms and way of life.

    crazy (d60cb0)

  30. The terrorists and their mother are all 9/11 truthers, so I’m sure they will apply that “logic” here too.

    The FBI are trained to avoid Islamophobia, what we would consider ordinary common sense. It doesn’t surprise me one bit Tamerlan was not caught.

    Patricia (be0117)

  31. the first known case of Pre-Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

    Nope. There was a troll, here, that claimed to be suffering from PRE traumatic stress disorder during the Iraq war.

    JD (f7edec)

  32. Well let’s connect the dots: Possible support with the bomb detonators, Russians warning us about the older brother in advance, the FBI clearning him, a radical Jihadi web site maintained by at least the older brother, recent trips to Chechnya,…

    Not exactly like Columbine. Which makes me wonder: How much of this is true?

    EBL (f71fce)

  33. It’s already started. The press is covering up the role of radical Islam as the motivation for the Tsarnaev brothers to bomb the Boston marathon.

    Islam does mean peace in an offhand way, it means peace through conquest. In other words, if Muslims rule, there is peace. Some Muslims have taken their hate and have decided non-Muslims or those not of their sect of Islam or anyone who respects non-Muslims or a plethora of other reasons should die. The author of this article does not understand the concept that it is the hate taught by radical Islam that is the motive.

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/scholars-caution-against-drawing-easy-religious-conclusions-about-suspects-boston-marathon-bombings/a5Iucv4ntQHgSvXchQqKOM/story.html

    Tanny O'Haley (09cf80)

  34. “British media are notoriously careless with facts, worse than the American MSM. With the exception of a few trustworthy journalists there, it’s best to be very skeptical of anything from a British source.”

    Bradley, the UK newspapers have been much more right than wrong about US topics since Obama was elected.

    Mike K (87eb3a)

  35. j. edgar hoover
    must be spinning in his grave
    feebs can’t walk chew gum

    Colonel Haiku (869a85)

  36. teh bean-town bombers
    watch where yer putin blame
    ch-ch-ch-chechen

    Colonel Haiku (869a85)

  37. The author of this article does not understand the concept that it is the hate taught by radical Islam that is the motive.

    Actually, the Islamic faith is intrinsically “radical.” So in a way, the Muslims who claim that diabolical acts in the name (and defense) of Islam represent a perversion or misinterpretation of their religion are no more accurate than the jihadists are.

    bibleprobe.com: Just a cursory look at Muhammad’s Qur’an (Koran) should be enough to warn you to keep your distance from Islam. In it you will see “unbridled raw evil”, such as statements like these:

    – Truly, god loves those who fight
    – Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
    – Chop off their hands and chop off their fingertips
    – When you meet the unbelievers, chop off their heads
    – Fight and slay those who don’t convert wherever you find them
    – Believers, take neither Jew nor Christians for your friends
    – Those who follow Muhammad are ruthless to unbelievers
    – Those who reject Islam are “the vilest of creatures” and thus deserve no mercy
    – Fight them until Islam reigns supreme (throughout the world)

    There are more than 100 verses in the Qur’an (Koran) advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. There are exactly 123 verses in the Qur’an about killing and fighting.

    Mark (6d6213)

  38. give the lad some medical marijuana for the pain…

    Colonel Haiku (869a85)

  39. I think he should get a lead injection for the pain Colonel Haiku, but that’s just me.

    I’m still interested in what benefit there is to the United States to allow anyone who is a moslem from anywhere emmigrate here? What could a back-world moslem bring to a Judeo-Christian Constitutional Republic that we even need. Therefore, as a sovereign nation we have to stop this islamisation of our country. There is a faction of moslems who have declaired war on us and since we have no way to determine who they are it makes no sense to allow any in. Unless you think it would have been wise to let Germans in during WWII since there was no way to know if they were “real” Nazi’s or just peace loving Germans.

    Political correctness is killing our fellow Americans. Stop the madness-throw out the enemy.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  40. Tamerlan Tsarnaev, a Caucasian (from the Caucus Mountains) hated Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Quick call the race detectives Charles Johnson, Chris Matthews and David Sirota!

    EBL (f71fce)

  41. ==j. edgar hoover
    must be spinning in his grave
    feebs can’t walk chew gum==

    colonel–late last night I just finished re-reading the excellent book American Tabloid, by James Ellroy. As many of you know, it fictionaliizes a plot around major actual events and actual people in the late 1950’s and the early 1960’s. (The swirling confluence of J. Edgar, Commie-hunting, HUAC, the mob, Hollywood, Hoffa and Teamsters’ Central States Pension Fund, Cuba, Nixon, the Kennedy brothers, specific corrupt tycoons, rogue government agencies and rogue double agents within government agencies, press purposefully misinforming, –the whole interplay of that time bouncing around and utterly out of control.)

    I have the feeling the very same types of things and dubious personalities (massive money, political power, foreign enemies, government/bureaucratic corruption, crime syndicates and personal revenge) are fully present and actively influencing what has been happening lately and what we are allowed to know and not to know about the milieu in which we live. The stage and cast of characters are too vast. No one-especially the government– knows the full picture. Exactly like the events that transpired 50 years ago, I doubt we’ll ever get the true story.

    elissa (8c85ee)

  42. The surviving brother is a follower as his relationship with his brother shows. I think that makes it more likely skilled interrogators can convince him to give up what he knows, which will help find anyone who helped or trained them.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  43. What difference, at this point, does it make that this woman is going to be our next President?

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  44. What woman?

    Icy (f2bc79)

  45. colonel–late last night I just finished re-reading the excellent book American Tabloid, by James Ellroy.

    Elissa… I read that book when it first came out in paperback in the 90’s and just re-read it last year. When you’ve read that book, you know you’ve been witness to the break-out of a major talent. Ellroy is wackier than all get-out, but what a writer!

    What you’ve posted is food for thought… we’ve somehow crossed the “interesting times” threshold into the Land of What Next…

    Colonel Haiku (172e91)

  46. 43. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 4/21/2013 @ 10:46 am

    The surviving brother is a follower as his relationship with his brother shows. I think that makes it more likely skilled interrogators can convince him to give up what he knows, which will help find anyone who helped or trained them.

    If they do what they should, which actually is more likely than not.

    Their father first heard from a reporter that his son was captured alive because he said Thank God and burst into tears. He had earlier said they couldn’t be guilty etc. but now he said he should tell the police everything. he’s coming over to the United States to see his son.

    So fart this morning, it’s been reported they ahven’t been able to ask him any questions. the Moranda exception lasts 48 hours (this must be Holder’s rules) but I suppose this can be extended – the FBI is also good at getting someone to talk. His brother is now dead, there;s no need to protect him. He just has to realize that what he did was wrong.

    There is a problem if a lawyer gets involved but not that big a problem. The evidence is overwhelming, and he is eligible for the death penalty just for murdering the policemen, or his part in that. He can quickly arrange something, and it’s in his interest to arrange it quickly.

    The laweyer would only want to see to it so that he gets credit foor talking. If he gets a lawyer it could be delayed a few days, but still may happen, because it happened before.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  47. 26. Everything at Debka is just nonsense and/or disinformation.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  48. pantsuit-wearing fraud
    teh grotesque clintonesqueness
    sow must be retired

    Colonel Haiku (172e91)

  49. 5. We have good reason to think certain authorities had undetermined information warning of an attack at the Marathon.

    The FBI believed Tamerlan Tsarnaev was the leader of a cell, the interviewed him and decided the threat was insufficient to warrant deportation.

    Then the TSA gives this guy clearance to visit the land of his ancestors, the only people within her borders Russian has never completely subdued.

    After 6 months the let him back in.

    The night of the first gunbattle in which Tamerlan was executed by his bro’ on capture, the FBI arrived at MIT after the shooting was over and Jahar had escaped.

    Does anyone feel like cut bait? Do you think you’re getting your dollars worth from Top Hermaphrodite?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  50. speaking of disinformation… ladies and gents, I give you Sammy…

    Colonel Haiku (172e91)

  51. 48. Kinda like someone we know?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  52. The linked Daily Mail article is a complete mash up of facts, claiming in one paragraph “Tamerlan was shot dead by police early on Friday” and in another
    “He was on the ground being handcuffed when he was run over by his younger brother as he escaped in the car.”

    The idea that the FBI told a suspect’s mother that he was an “extremist leader” and the suspect himself that “We know what sites you are on, we know where you are calling, we know everything about you. Everything. We are checking and watching” doesn’t pass the straight-face test. Not to belabor the obvious, but such techniques lose their investigative effectiveness if they are disclosed to the suspect and his mother.

    Frankly, any information that originates with the mother and father is suspect as far as I’m concerned.

    Perhaps we can all put some of the tin foil hat theories away (the Tsarnaev brothers were double agents? Really?) and await some factual developments.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  53. #47… “So fart this morning…”

    permission granted, Sammy? It’s early afternoon here on teh westcoast, and all ten fingers got one in teh chamber with teh safety off…

    Colonel Haiku (172e91)

  54. I heard something on TV that the reason the Russians asked the FBI to check him out in 2011 is that Tamerlan was planning to visit Russia, which he did. But obviously, the Russians had something.

    His father is supposedly to be ill with a brain tumor and went back to Russia for treatment and he said the prognosis is not good. Tamerlan Tsarnaev, on the surface at least only visited family in Dagestan (although 6 months is along time) and his father told the Wall Street Journal (Friday edition) the Chechyan terrorists are not aorund there any more.

    His father said he was present at the 2011 FBI interview, which means at that time he was still in the United States. Indeed the brothers only moved into their Cambridge apartment in 2012. He (or was that his mother?) said it was a preventative meeting – sort of warning him not to do anything. It worked with the German American bund when J. Edgar Hoover was in charge.

    If Tamerlan continued on with terrorist plots, it must be that the questioning by the FBI showed Tamerlan that there was a whole area of his life that the FBI had absolutely no idea of.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  55. “Islam does mean peace in an offhand way.”

    Not on your life, Tanny. Islam means Submission.

    The smart money is on Mark (6d6213) — 4/21/2013 @ 9:05 am

    felipe (3243af)

  56. Maybe someone should inform the F.B.I. that like this Chechen monster, Barack Obama was also mentored by an extremist leader.

    Bill Ayres is easy to find, in case they wish to question him.

    Elephant Stone (65a34b)

  57. Or my comment won’t appear. I guess linking multiple sites showing Islamists killing in the USA is verboten.

    NJRob (fe68e7)

  58. Bill Ayres (or it is Ayers) – yes it’s Ayers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

    For the American baseball pitcher, see Bill Ayers (baseball). For the Catholic priest, radio host, and hunger activist, see Bill Ayres……

    William Charles “Bill” Ayers (born December 26, 1944)[1] is an American elementary education theorist and a former leader in the movement that opposed U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. He is known for his 1960s radical activism as well as his current work in education reform, curriculum, and instruction. In 1969 he co-founded the Weather Underground, a self-described communist revolutionary group[2] that conducted a campaign of bombing public buildings (including police stations, the U.S. Capitol Building, and the Pentagon) during the 1960s and 1970s in response to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  59. Bill Ayers could probably tell them, if he was honest, that it is not easy to build bombs correctly. It is possible the bomb won’t make a big explosion and it is possible the bomb could explode prematurely, killing the bomb builders and both things happened to them.

    What that means is that, since the bombs, or most of them worked (at the end in the cionfrontation with the police after 1 am Fruiday midnight in Watertown, one may ahve failed to explode) Tamerlan must have had training.

    And there’s also the question of where the money came from. A student loan to Dzokhar Tsarnaev? And where did they get all the black powder and guns they had? and where did they get their ideas.

    Now an uncle says they were radicalized in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Is there something actually they know? Perhaps someone on the MIT campus?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  60. Sammy, what do you suppose Barack Obama might say about the fact he himself was mentored by an admitted terrorist ?

    Lemme guess, “Bill Ayers is just a guy in the neighborhood. Our kids go to school together.”

    Elephant Stone (65a34b)

  61. Colonel Haiku, the FBI has never been able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Its reputation was always the product of press release and credulous reporters.

    SPQR (768505)

  62. Barack Obama used to spend a lot of time at the Columbia Butler library, and it, and/or the low library which for many years was assumed to be the intended target of the Weathermen for the bombs they were building in the townhouse that exploded in Greenwich Village on March 6, 1970.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion.

    The Weathermen never said what the target was for many years. But diagranms of Columbia had been found.

    I think at around the time he met Barack Obama the intended target became Ft. Dix, New Jersey..

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  63. John Podhoretz very recently in a column about Kathy Boudin thought the target had been Columbia University. I think he was toitally unaware of the change.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  64. Obama was there in 1983, but still..

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  65. Talmerlan’s wife lived in Providence Rhode Island with her parents – that explains why they stopped the train on Friday (they probably hadnb’t venbe positively identified him as the one who was dead)

    He saw her at least every week. But he didn’t live
    with her – probably because she would have seen his bomb making.

    She converted to Islam but they married in a civil ceremony. Either Talmerlan’s didn’t want it quite to count or he didn’t want her to see his imam. Or for the FBI to find out who his imam was.

    I would guess they probably did do a religious ceremony, but didn’tr register it.

    Her family said in a statement that they apparently did now know who Tamerlan really was and also that it was not the time to talk about it.

    On Saturday his wife, dressed with a cap covering all her hair and something else to – only the face and hands were visible, came to the Cambrudge apartment along with a friend and her daugher – the friend stayed in the car, and she took out a cat and some belongings, so maybe it is not so long that she hadn’t bene living there.

    The New York Daily News has pictures of the apt. They said earlier they would explode ordnance but i gues sthey thought the better of it. All weapons must have been removed and also books from the bookcase but they left the unfinished meal on the table.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  66. Daleyrocks – I really had a good question Friday -somehow they were found.

    This is how: The car jack victim reported the carjacking and his cell phone was still in the car turned on. They ddin’t chad ethem all the way. They found the car. The car jack victim escaped was not released, when Jihar went into the store.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  67. Gosh, I guess the kid’s parents have a point:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-21/inside-ground-zero-photos-suspects-apartment

    Better check their locker at the Bus Station just to be sure.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  68. A fish rots from the head. And no matter how dedicated the FBI agents are they know that path to employment and promotion goes through the idiots in Washington.

    glenn (647d76)

  69. The Daily Mail is pointing what NBC News is only hinting at, Tsarnaev was in contact with a known Dagestani militant, on several occasions.

    narciso (3fec35)

  70. Colonel Haiku, the FBI has never been able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Its reputation was always the product of press release and credulous reporters.

    Comment by SPQR (768505)

    Agree to a point, but they have had some success… read Lawrence Wright’s “Looming Towers” (if you haven’t)… that book is spellbinding. John O’Neill is was an example of a dedicated agent. One of their biggest problems (and they aren’t alone) was the pathetic lack of communication/intelligence sharing with other agencies. Effing criminal.

    Colonel Haiku (172e91)

  71. Well there is the lesson, for you Colonel, the backstabbing weasels drove o’Neil out of the Bureau and toward where the terrorists would strike,

    narciso (3fec35)

  72. Colonel Haiku, the FBI has never been able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Its reputation was always the product of press release and credulous reporters.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 4/21/2013 @ 1:30 pm

    Bombing to apprehension in four days…grossly overrated. Any real investigative agency would have had the the bombers in custody in 4 hours.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  73. jeez do they want a cookie

    ok fine here’s a cookie

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  74. What no cupcakes with exra frosting, pikachu.

    narciso (3fec35)

  75. no cause of they screwed up on the veranda rights

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  76. CalFed,

    Given what we’re learning about warnings from Russia about Tamerlan Tsarnaev, any real investigative agency would have had him under surveillance and stopped this attack before it happened.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  77. Really?

    Why don’t you lay out what we know…I mean actually know…about what warnings the FBI reeived form Russia?

    CalFed (5b899d)

  78. CalFed, maybe they would have. Maybe they wouldn’t have.

    But the reality remains that the FBI is grossly overrated. Want me to start my list of FBI screwups, f’ups and outright lying to the public?

    Its not a short list.

    SPQR (768505)

  79. I’ll even make you deal, CalFed. I won’t mention Richard Jewell.

    SPQR (768505)

  80. But Stephen Hatfield? Yeah, I’m gonna mention him.

    SPQR (768505)

  81. And we’ll skip the bureau protecting Whitey Bulger.

    narciso (3fec35)

  82. CalFed, maybe they would have. Maybe they wouldn’t have.

    Rigghhhttt…

    CalFed (5b899d)

  83. CalFed,

    The FBI confirmed it investigated Tsarnaev in 2011 so he was on their radar. The investigation resulted from a warning from a foreign government that I assume is Russia. I know it’s dangerous to make assumptions but I’m willing to make this one.

    With this sharing among governments as background, doesn’t it make sense to put someone like Tamerlan Tsarnaev on a foreign travel watchlist? If not, why not?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  84. I won’t defend the screw ups…but there have been plenty of successes. Your description of them, in my opinion, is neither fair nor accurate.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  85. It’s curious, the likes of Ken Williams, Nancy Floyd, John O’Neil, do really important work then headquarters betrays them.

    narciso (3fec35)

  86. the FBI should go back to where they mostly just hung out with that hot red-headed chick and hunted chupacabras and space aliens

    it gave them a purpose and they had fun with it

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  87. It’s curious, the likes of Ken Williams, Nancy Floyd, John O’Neil, do really important work then headquarters betrays them.

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 4/21/2013 @ 6:08 pm

    Narciso, John O’Neil was betrayed by no one. He retired honorably after a 25 year career.

    He did leave under a small cloud…he had left a briefcase containing classified information (which should never have been left unattended)in a
    hotel room. It was stolen but later recovered. He was investigated by both the DOJ and FBI for mishandling classified information, which was the very least he could reasonably expect. The DOF declined prosecution and the FBI OPR investigation was quietly closed after he retired.

    How was Ken Williams, the author of the “Phoenix Memo” betrayed? As far as I know, he was never subjected to any adverse action.

    How was Nancy Floyd betrayed?

    How was Nancy Floyd betrayed?

    CalFed (5b899d)

  88. “Islam does mean peace in an offhand way.”

    Not on your life, Tanny. Islam means Submission.

    The smart money is on Mark (6d6213) — 4/21/2013 @ 9:05 am

    Comment by felipe (3243af) — 4/21/2013 @ 12:59 pm

    Felipe, You didn’t read far enough.

    it means peace through conquest. In other words, if Muslims rule, there is peace

    Sounds like if Muslims rule, anyone under them is under submission.

    Tanny O'Haley (09cf80)

  89. the best tracker of terrorism, was forced out on bogus grounds, Williams wasn’t promoted yet other people who squashed his memo, were, there was a whispering campaign agains Floyd, for her handling of Emad Salem, who had they not shut down the surveilance might have been able to stop the first WTC bombings,

    narciso (3fec35)

  90. The FBI confirmed it investigated Tsarnaev in 2011 so he was on their radar. The investigation resulted from a warning from a foreign government that I assume is Russia. I know it’s dangerous to make assumptions but I’m willing to make this one.

    –DRJ

    Hmmm…DRJ, first you claim that the FBI should have had Tsarnaev under surveillance based on the warnings given to them the Russian government. When I ask you what facts you are in possession of as to what the Russian government told the FBI, you respond with what you describe as “assumptions you are willing to make”.

    So, basically, you have no facts as to what the Russian government may or may not have given the FBI. Is that correct?

    As for whether Tsarnaev should or should not have been on a “foreign travel watchlist”, since I don’t know what the foreign government involved told the FBI (nor apparently do you), I really can’t say whether he should have been on a “foreign travel watchlist”. In fact, I’m not familiar with any “foreign travel watchlist” and the link that you provide is to the Terrorist Watchlist not a “Foreign Travel Watchlist”. In any event…what I said applies to the Terrorist Watchlist as well…since I do not know what the FBI was told specifically about Tsarnaev, I really can’t judge whether it was sufficient to justify his inclusion on the Terrorist Watchlist.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  91. Narciso…can you back any of what you have posted with factual references?

    CalFed (5b899d)

  92. Well, CalFed, there was indeed a failure of intelligence.

    That does not mean that anyone was at fault. It is simply a fact. If intelligence was perfect, the bombing would not have happened.

    Criticism or questioning of governmental agencies should not always be taken as a indictment of their dedication nor methods.

    It should be taken, if valid after review, as an opportunity to improve techniques and training.

    It was not so long ago that every action by the government was an affront to the rule of law and a crime against humanity.

    What, exactly, has changed that speaking truth to power now makes it wrong?

    Let me tweak that a bit, because it leaves you a wide open retort. Since when is questioning the actions of government tantamount to ignorance?

    Government has no market for correction other than the voice and votes of the people. Suppressing their voices because you disagree may not be healthy in the long run of democracy.

    So, what are your facts? Cites may be important.

    Ag80 (19f299)

  93. CalFed, how do you feel about such a luminary as Jamie Gorelick with her Gorelick Wall forbidding info sharing about islamoterrorists between the CIA and FBI? Just wonder how much of an apologist you may be. To me Gorelick appears to be a Typhoid Mary in the middle of the 911 intelligence fiasco and even on the 911 committee. Later she continued contributed to the national well-being, gaining big bucks in the Housing mess. One supposes further blame for inadequate intelligence goes back to the Carter era. But then as sHrillary might exclaim, what does it matter? Of course we know liberals/apologists for Allah insist that the FBI and CIA take Islamic feelings into account and avoid Islamophobia above all. Mustn’t upset CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood, among others including the Arabist State Dept.

    calypso louie Farrakhan (53ccf5)

  94. CalFed- you seem to be knowledgeable and invested in the bureau and highly engaged in the discussion here. I realize you may not be able to be specific but do you you believe you are privy to information about the circumstances of this Boston bombing and its perpetrators that others commenting here are not? If so, can you offer even a hint of where you think some might be off base?

    elissa (8c85ee)

  95. Boston bureau investigator for 10 of 30 years in the FBI , if I recall.

    JD (b63a52)

  96. Yay!!! go team FBI!!!

    JD (b63a52)

  97. Well, CalFed, there was indeed a failure of intelligence.

    Without question, Ag80. But acknowledging an intelligence failure is a far cry from claiming that based on some unknown information that may or may not have been given to the FBI, Tamerlan Tsarnaev should have been under surveillance. None of us know what information, if any, was given to the FBI about Tsarnaev. Of course, that doesn’t stop some of the commentors here from making declarative statements about what the FBI should have done.

    That isn’t “speaking truth to power”, that is engaging in rank speculation. Not very useful and not very persuasive.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  98. CalFed, how do you feel about such a luminary as Jamie Gorelick with her Gorelick Wall

    I thought it was silly when it was in place and rejoiced when it was partially dismantled.

    And I think one of the biggest jokes played on the American public was that Gorelick was allowed to sit on the 9/11 Commission rather than being required to testify before it.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  99. President Obama specifically and publicly thanked Vlad Putin for his help/assistance with this investigation. What might that have been about, I wonder.

    elissa (8c85ee)

  100. Elissa – it is rank speculation to suggest that Russia could have played any role in this, at any time.

    JD (b63a52)

  101. 99. No offense Captain Obvious, we have spent tens of $Billions$ on anti-terrorism harassment of our citzenry, have flatly ignored the law on protection of our borders, made our military bases killing fields for the armed terrorist, have taken power grid assaults-virtually unreported, etc., and have nothing substantive apart from a handful of ‘averted plots’.

    If you wish us to believe we should feel safe because the Federal government is on the job you, indeed, CalFed, are the biggest sh*thead ever to grace these pages.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  102. CalFed,

    Let me start by conceding (again) that I don’t know if the foreign government involved was Russia, but frankly it doesn’t matter for the purposes of this discussion. Thus, from now on when I discuss this topic with you, I will refer to it as Foreign Government.

    We know some things about Tsarnaev and Foreign Government because of this FBI press release:

    Once the FBI learned the identities of the two brothers today, the FBI reviewed its records and determined that in early 2011, a foreign government asked the FBI for information about Tamerlan Tsarnaev. The request stated that it was based on information that he was a follower of radical Islam and a strong believer, and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the United States for travel to the country’s region to join unspecified underground groups.

    In response to this 2011 request, the FBI checked U.S. government databases and other information to look for such things as derogatory telephone communications, possible use of online sites associated with the promotion of radical activity, associations with other persons of interest, travel history and plans, and education history. The FBI also interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev and family members. The FBI did not find any terrorism activity, domestic or foreign, and those results were provided to the foreign government in the summer of 2011. The FBI requested but did not receive more specific or additional information from the foreign government.

    Thus, based on the FBI’s own press release, we know the FBI considers “travel history and plans” to be relevant information regarding possible terrorism activity. We also know that Tsarnaev had travel plans. At the very least, why didn’t the FBI put Tsarnaev’s name on a watch list? (If it did, it didn’t stay on there long enough or apparently they didn’t do much with it.) More important, how many red flags does the FBI need to put someone with this kind of profile under surveillance?

    I agree the intelligence agencies have had many successes, and I am grateful for that. But, like it or not, we are judged by our successes and our failures. Tamerlan Tsarnaev is an American intelligence failure because he was on the terrorism radar of two governments, and nevertheless was still able to commit this act of terror. The best that can be done now is to figure out why the clues were missed and to try to keep it from happening again.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  103. By the way, CalFed, do you think the fact that the FBI purged its Training Manual of all references to Islamic Terror might have anything to do with how the FBI agents viewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  104. Pure rank speculation, DRJ

    JD (b63a52)

  105. Yay!!! go team FBI!!!

    I don’t apologize for my service, JD…certainly not to you.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  106. Hence my caveat, CalFed. Regardless, we depend on the federal government now days, as before, to defend us. With that I have no problem. That defense is clearly outlined in the Constitution.

    However, I would question whether speculation was indeed “rank.” It does seem that the FBI was indeed made aware of Tamarlan Tsarnaev’s visits to Russia.

    I do not know why you think questioning actionable intelligence was ignored. Maybe the FBI was too busy. Maybe they thought the threat was minimal. I don’t know and neither do you.

    Regardless, three people are dead and more than a hundred injured. Asking questions with a skeptical eye may find out the truth and prevent future carnage.

    Maybe I’m out of line here, but isn’t questioning power the point of representative democracy? That certainly seems the focus of other Web sites and media outlets when their particular favorites are out of power. Not so much when their particular favorites occupy the seats of power.

    Personally, I’m interested in the truth.

    Ag80 (19f299)

  107. One more thing. Do you think the Obama Administration’s intelligence leak in May 2012 might have affected Foreign Government’s willingness to share intel about Tsarnaev’s increasing radicalization, travels and return to the U.S. in July 2012?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  108. Nobody asked you to apologize for your service, nor denigrated it.

    JD (b63a52)

  109. CalFed,

    In the FBI’s defense, I agree we don’t know what information was shared among the various intelligence agencies or what recommendations the FBI might have made to others. It may well be that the FBI wanted to do more but the decision was made by another agency or someone higher up in the Administration.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  110. At the very least, why didn’t the FBI put Tsarnaev’s name on a watch list? (If it did, it didn’t stay on there long enough or apparently they didn’t do much with it.) More important, how many red flags does the FBI need to put someone with this kind of profile under surveillance?

    Just so I understand what you are suggesting…Is it your position that the FBI should have placed Tsarnaev under surveillance starting in early 2011 And that that surveillance should have remained in place until the 2013 Boston marathon…more than two years later?

    Furthemore, I can’t answer your question, because I don’t (and neither do you, apparently) know what exactly the foreign government told the FBI nor how solid the information was.

    Finally, Chechnyans trerrorists, while engaging in horrific terrorism in Russia, have not been known to be targeting this country, at least until now. Whatever Tsarnaev did or did not do in Russia, it may not have been clear that he intended to commit an act in this country.

    The best that can be done now is to figure out why the clues were missed and to try to keep it from happening again.

    I certainly agree with this.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  111. The best that can be done now is to figure out why the clues were missed and to try to keep it from happening again.

    I certainly agree with this.

    Nothing you have posted about this topic suggests that. Rank speculation based on imperfect information !

    JD (b63a52)

  112. So, basically, you have no facts as to what the Russian government may or may not have given the FBI. Is that correct?

    Comment by CalFed (5b899d) — 4/21/2013

    CalFed, DRJ was quite honest about how she is making an assumption. Your response is just restating what she conceded in good faith.

    Also, her assumption is solid. Russia’s Embassy brings concerns about Chechen terrorism cells all the time. It’s quite reasonable to believe that Russia informed the FBI about these people.

    In the FBI’s defense, I believe Russia informed us about a number of potentially dangerous subjects, many associated with the Chechen cause. I even personally took such information many years ago when working in D.C. While I dutifully took careful notes, had something translated, and reported it to the investigator who asked me to attend this meeting, the impression I got was that it was one of many similar areas of concern, and decisions would have to be made about how to allocate limited resources. I don’t think it’s the FBI’s fault in most cases when bad things happen.

    But I am concerned that we devote so many resources to things like the TSA groping grandma. I question our priorities, which I believe are over politicized. I believe that politicians are hampering understanding terrorism if it will help them in elections (for example with Benghazi), and I believe that they are mostly concerned with displays of ‘doing something’ than actual results.

    I have the utmost respect for FBI’s folks who do the best they can. But if the FBI let this one slip through the cracks, that’s a black mark on the organization’s reputation. And it’s been a frustrating series of black marks on federal law enforcement for the past several years. Just ask Brian Terry. I personally think the root issue here is political, so I relate a lot of these tragedies.

    Dustin (2da3a2)

  113. I think the American government agencies (intelligence and/or FBI, or both) should have placed Tsarnaev’s name on a travel watch list so they would know about and make further inquiries regarding his foreign travel. I suspect information developed from that would have led to him being placed under surveillance, but I admit that last statement is rank speculation. Frankly, there may be so many people like Tsarnaev that we can’t put them all under surveillance. How scary is that?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  114. Finally, Chechnyans trerrorists, while engaging in horrific terrorism in Russia, have not been known to be targeting this country, at least until now. Whatever Tsarnaev did or did not do in Russia, it may not have been clear that he intended to commit an act in this country.

    Comment by CalFed (5b899d) — 4/21/2013 @ 10:10 pm

    Then why?

    Chechen fighters have traveled to Afghanistan, Pakistan and neighboring Caucasus regions for military and explosives training, joining their cause to a worldwide jihad.

    Chechen militants and their foreign supporters who trained at Al Qaeda-run camps in Afghanistan were among the terrorist suspects swept up after the U.S. invasion and imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay or CIA “black sites.” Some are still believed to be in indefinite detention.

    A history of terrorism out of Chechnya

    Why were Chechnyian terrorists working with Al Qaeda and the Taliban. If Al Qaeda was targeting the US and the Chechnyian terrorists were working with Al Qaeda, couldn’t it be inferred that Chechnyian terrorists were helping Al Qaeda to target the US? Since all Islamic terrorist believe that the west is the great Satan, isn’t it negligence on the part of the FBI to ignore any Islamic terrorist?

    Tanny O'Haley (09cf80)

  115. I still don’t think it really matters for the purpose of this discussion but FWIW, the Houston Chronicle reports that law enforcement officials have confirmed the foreign government is Russia.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  116. Frankly, there may be so many people like Tsarnaev that we can’t put them all under surveillance. How scary is that?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 4/21/2013

    Apparently the reality is so scary that our administration’s reaction is to shove the war on terror through an orwellian filter in hopes we don’t realize the direction the war has taken.

    Meanwhile, a phalanx of drone strikes that destroy intel opportunities as they also destroy the potential for difficult legal issues that are politically inconvenient. An OBL raid that resulted in a politicized football spiking, but also squandered much intel opportunity (and gave our enemies tremendous intel they shouldn’t have). Nidal Hasan, The SEAL team helicopter shot down, Benghazi… I think Bush was more effective, but at the price of political challenges. Obama’s admin seems to just wave a lot of this stuff away.

    But what if there are so many terrorists that the FBI can’t track them all? Does that call into question some of our priorities?

    Dustin (2da3a2)

  117. CalFed, DRJ was quite honest about how she is making an assumption. Your response is just restating what she conceded in good faith.

    Not exactly, Dustin.

    The crux of my disagreement is not the source of the information, but rather its nature.

    to be precise…my main disagreement with DRJ is with her initial post…

    Given what we’re learning about warnings from Russia about Tamerlan Tsarnaev, any real investigative agency would have had him under surveillance and stopped this attack before it happened.

    The issue isn’t whether it was the Russian government or some other government…the issue is we don’t know what information the FBI was given. To flatly state that based on the information that we know now, the FBI should have had Tsarnaev under surveillance and been in a position to stop the bombings is absurdly speculative, given that none of know what the FBI was told.

    I gave DRJ the opportunity to disclose what factual information she had as to what, specifically, the Russians had given the FBI and her answer boiled down to …nothing.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  118. couldn’t it be inferred that Chechnyian terrorists were helping Al Qaeda to target the US?

    Not necessarily. For instance, IRA terrorists trained in the middle east with groups hostile to the US, but themselves did not target the US.

    Terrorists get their training where they can and from whom they can, without necessarily sharing the same targets of their terrorism.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  119. but I admit that last statement is rank speculation

    At last, DRJ…something we agree on 😉

    CalFed (5b899d)

  120. To flatly state that based on the information that we know now, the FBI should have had Tsarnaev under surveillance and been in a position to stop the bombings is absurdly speculative, given that none of know what the FBI was told.

    I know better than to speak for DRJ, but in my opinion, if the FBI is informed by Russia that a particular subject who resides in the US is travelling to Russia in order to join underground terrorist groups, and is a follower of radical Islam, then that subject should be under surveillance when they return to the US.

    Unless I’m mistaken, the only assumption in this hypo is the full nature of the underground groups that Russia told the FBI Tamerlan was joining.

    The problem with my proposition, which DRJ also stated, was that it might be impossible to surveil all the people who we’re told are doing this kind of thing. I know very little about that. I had one very low level experience that gave me the impression that’s exactly the problem, but it’s not clear to me.

    Dustin (2da3a2)

  121. But actually, DRJ, putting everyone who could possibly be a terrorist under surveillance is not realistic. Surveillances are incredibly manpower intensive. Round the clock surveillance of a target requires 15 or 20 agents, more if the surveillance is of long duration or the target is particularly active. And it is almost impossible to keep a covert surveillance covert for very long.

    CalFed (5b899d)

  122. if the FBI is informed by Russia that a particular subject who resides in the US is travelling to Russia in order to join underground terrorist groups, and is a follower of radical Islam, then that subject should be under surveillance when they return to the US.

    If, if, if…none of us know what the Russians told the FBI or how credible it was.

    Furthermore, in your own link, I found this…

    “No evidence has emerged since to link Tsarnaev to militant groups in Russia’s Caucasus.”

    Finally…this information came to the FBI over two years ago…should the FBI have surveilled Tsarvaez for two years?

    CalFed (5b899d)

  123. Dustin said:

    … if the FBI is informed by Russia that a particular subject who resides in the US is travelling to Russia in order to join underground terrorist groups, and is a follower of radical Islam, then that subject should be under surveillance when they return to the US.

    CalFed, Dustin summarizes it well. What do you think?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  124. CalFed:

    I gave DRJ the opportunity to disclose what factual information she had as to what, specifically, the Russians had given the FBI and her answer boiled down to …nothing.

    You are overstating your case. I pointed out the FBI press release in my comment 104 that stated the Foreign Government (Russia) advised the FBI that Tsarnaev “was a follower of radical Islam and a strong believer, and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the United States for travel to the country’s region to join unspecified underground groups.”

    That’s not “nothing.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  125. No one, certainly that I have read, here or on similar sites has suggested that persons like CalFed are not committed, sacrificing and loyal.

    But on the whole, in collective service, the Federal government amounts to two stiff fingers in the eye of every American.

    Want your effort to stand on its own, not associated with pR0n perusing SEC lawyers, corruption coddling FBI agents, whoremongering SS agents, or gun-running ATF agents, genital-fondling TSA agents?

    Become a small town cop.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  126. 124. You lie, see next thread.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  127. CalFed,

    Sorry, I missed your response at 124 when I left my comment 125. (I either need to post my comments more quickly or refresh before posting!) As for your points, I think the important part of the quote you extract is the word “since”:

    “No evidence has emerged since to link Tsarnaev to militant groups in Russia’s Caucasus.”

    In other words, since Tsarnaev returned from Russia, he has not been linked to militant groups in that country. But is that really comforting? Recall that there are at least 3 troubling things about Russia’s report regarding Tsarnaev:

    1. He was follower of and a strong believer in radical Islam.

    2. He had changed drastically since 2010.

    3. He was preparing to leave the United States for travel to Russia to join unspecified underground groups.

    As you note above, Chechnyan violence had not been known in America before this attack. Thus, I accept the FBI might initially have believed it was assessing whether Tsarnaev planned to attack Russia, not whether he planned to attack America. But once he came back to America without taking action in Russia, the question should have changed from “Is he a threat to Russia?” to “Is he a threat to America?”

    I think a strong believer in radical Islam whose behavior has changed from normal and who has made connections with underground groups in foreign countries is a per se threat.

    I agree that extended surveillance is difficult, costly, and may not be feasible. However, I submit that once Tsarnaev came back to America from Russia in July 2012, at a minimum, it would have been prudent to re-investigate him — an investigation that might have led to surveillance if the media reports are true (another big “if” but that doesn’t make them untrue). Why? Because the investigation might have turned up his posting of suspicious videos reportedly posted within a month of his return.

    Not only would that fact have made further surveillance appropriate, but it means we’re not talking about investigations and surveillance for 1-2 years. We’re talking about 1-2 months.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  128. CalFed,

    Also, at least one terrorism expert thinks Summer 2011 (when Russia inquired about Tsarnaev) is when the U.S. should have been concerned about Chechnyan violence targeting the U.S.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  129. Half the commenters at this site are freaking lawyers well acquainted with weasel legalese as a stand in for the Truth.

    What can be established in a court of law is in no reliable sense the Truth. Here we seem to have a higher standard still, that which a Stasi goon finds ‘credible’.

    So control the access to information, control the reporting and interpretation of that information by means of access and oila control the standard of Truth.

    Case in point, added to the many:

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/22/news/economy/deficits/index.html?iid=Lead

    The Fed just goosed GDP $500 Billion on ‘intangibles’. Now it is reported this one-off change means deficits are decreasing!

    Don’t pay any attention to the fact that entitlements like SS, Medicare and Welfare are counted in the GDP total, blatant double counting of income.

    The Federal government is not your servant, your friend, your associate.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  130. CalFed asks a specious question “How long should the FBI tail likely perps. Two years is evidently way too much.

    Canada wouldn’t seem to agree.

    And anyway just what is so all fired important thats keeping these guys entrenched? Lemonade stands?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  131. CalFed,

    Apparently Tsarnaev was on a watch list but it didn’t trigger because his name was misspelled on the flight manifest. At the same link, he was also under surveillance … in Russia.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  132. CalFed, I bet you’re really good at assessing pro football games…on Monday morning.

    Elephant Stone (65a34b)

  133. It’s good news that Tsarnaev was apparently on a watch list, although it’s not good news that his foreign flight was missed because of a misspelling.

    However, contrary to earlier reports, the link says it was the FBI that failed to respond to the Russian inquiries instead of the other way around. If true, that’s not good news but we’ll probably see in the coming days which report is correct.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  134. If their names were Smith or Jones it would be a lot easier to avoid those pesky misspellings on plane manifests and terror watch lists.

    elissa (09631c)

  135. It’s a squirrel response, the passports would give them away.

    narciso (3fec35)

  136. I could be mistaken but it would seem CalFed wants to be a given ‘that these tragic events were outside the control and beyond the capacity of the Intelligence community to expect, witness or prevent.

    ‘Sh*t happens.’

    I intuit from the forgoing we have more reason to take as quintessential–the model of a headless, insentient, Borg without fine motor control or continenc–defining men’s behavior in loosely organized groups of hierarchical authority structures.

    Mobs obeying a strongman.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  137. “Some might say” that these bombers were animated by jihad, but we can’t discount the MSNBC notion they may have been upset about their tax rates.

    Elephant Stone (65a34b)

  138. 133. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 4/22/2013 @ 1:06 pm

    Apparently Tsarnaev was on a watch list but it didn’t trigger because his name was misspelled on the flight manifest.

    As they used to say, that was no accident.

    136. Comment by elissa (09631c) — 4/22/2013 @ 1:15 pm

    If their names were Smith or Jones it would be a lot easier to avoid those pesky misspellings on plane manifests and terror watch lists.

    It’s been a longstanding tactic of Al Qaeda to misspeell names. That’s how the leader of the World Trade Center bombers of 1993 successfully immigrated to the United States

    after being turned down for avioistior’s visa.card.

    At the same link, he was also under surveillance … in Russia.

    However, contrary to earlier reports, the link says it was the FBI that failed to respond to the Russian inquiries instead of the other way around. If true, that’s not good news but we’ll probably see in the coming days which report is correct.

    No that’s what the earlier reports said. The point is, Russia refused to tell them anything!

    I found the article earlier today on another thread. (comment 32 in the

    FBI Admits It: Russian Government Told Us Tsarnaev Was a “Follower of Radical Islam” thread.

    It was in the New York Times.

    As the New York Times public editor wrote yesterday, the New York Times does not make mistakes.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  139. 133. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 4/22/2013 @ 1:06 pm

    Apparently Tsarnaev was on a watch list but it didn’t trigger because his name was misspelled on the flight manifest.

    As they used to say, that was no accident.

    136. Comment by elissa (09631c) — 4/22/2013 @ 1:15 pm

    If their names were Smith or Jones it would be a lot easier to avoid those pesky misspellings on plane manifests and terror watch lists.

    It’s been a longstanding tactic of Al Qaeda to misspeell names. That’s how the leader of the World Trade Center bombers of 1993,Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman, successfully immigrated to the United States (as a clergyman, a non-quota category) after being turned down for a viisitor’s visa. This was probably co-ordinated wioth somebody corrupt in the State Department because I think he did it while the computers were down. They did spot it later, and began some proceedings against him (He had been involved or was suspectred of being involved in the assassination of Sadat)

    They change their names to avoid Internet searches too.

    It’s easier to do with Arabic, but you can misspell other names too.

    Another report I heard was that he might have traveled on a false passport. Remmeber his Amazon.com wish list from 2007 (I think that must actually be a registry where he asks other people to buy thinsg from him,) had anumber of books about phony ID on it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  140. DRJ: At the same link, he was also under surveillance … in Russia.

    However, contrary to earlier reports, the link says it was the FBI that failed to respond to the Russian inquiries instead of the other way around. If true, that’s not good news but we’ll probably see in the coming days which report is correct.

    Russia refused to tell them anything!

    I found the article I mentioned earlier today on another thread. (comment 32 in the

    FBI Admits It: Russian Government Told Us Tsarnaev Was a “Follower of Radical Islam” thread.)

    It was in the New York Times. I thought so! But I was looking in Sunday’s paper main section.

    Suspect seemed Set for Attacks Beyond Boston…maim front page story Monday April 22, 2013 New York Times, continued on page A13)

    The request from the Russian government was directed to the F.B.I.’s legal attaché at the American Embassy in Moscow in January 2011, a senior United States official said. Tamerlan spent six months in Chechnya and Dagestan in 2012.

    The Russians feared Tamerlan could be a risk, and said their request was “based on information that he was a follower of radical Islam and a strong believer, and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the United States for travel to the country’s region to join unspecified underground groups,” the F.B.I. said in a statement Friday.

    A senior United States official said Sunday that despite requests from American officials for more details at the time, this was all the information the Russians provided.

    The F.B.I. responded by checking “U.S. government databases and other information to look for such things as derogatory telephone communications, possible use of online sites associated with the promotion of radical activity, associations with other persons of interest, travel history and plans, and education history,” it said in the statement.

    The bureau sent two counterterrorism agents from its Boston field office to interview Tamerlan and family members, a senior United States official said Saturday.

    According to the F.B.I.’s statement, “The F.B.I. did not find any terrorism activity, domestic or foreign,” and conveyed those findings to “the foreign government” — which officials say was Russia — by the summer of 2011….

    …The F.B.I. has pressed Russian authorities for more details about Moscow’s original request on Tamerlan, as well as any information the Russian intelligence services have developed since then, according to a senior United States official.

    These discussions are “sensitive,” the official said, because of the differences in protocol and laws between the two countries, and the Russians’ reluctance to disclose confidential intelligence to foreign governments.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  141. As the New York Times public editor wrote yesterday, the New York Times does not make mistakes. (except when it does)

    A Model of Restraint in the Race for News By MARGARET SULLIVAN Published: April 20, 2013 35 Comments

    I’ve been critical of The Times in many ways over the past eight months. It can be self-satisfied, too willing to circle the wagons, too ready to cooperate with the government. It made some bad factual mistakes in the breaking coverage of the Newtown massacre, and it sometimes chooses to ignore or underplay important subjects. I could go on.

    But right now, let’s give credit where it is due. The Times proved itself worthy of its reputation as journalism’s gold standard and served its readers well by staying away from unconfirmed reports. Its reporting from Boston all week was fast, deep and accurate….

    …What The Times can and should offer its readers is coolheaded certainty: If you read it here, it’s right. The Times can’t beat Twitter or cable news at their own frenzied game; it can be the place to come for accuracy, perspective and depth. As digital tools continue to revolutionize journalism, The Times is realizing and asserting its proper and much-needed role.

    So therefore, according to the New York Times, when they say Russia refused to hand over more information, and the U.S. is still begging for more, you can take it to the bank. (unless some “senior United States official” is lying – but it’s more plausible Putin’s Russia did just this.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  142. Rep. Peter King said he was broiefed for 8 years about terrorism and Chechnia never came up.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  143. Sammy, King is an idiot then, not that that is news.

    SPQR (6b2dff)

  144. A new day, a new story from the federal government. Yesterday the FBI said it did not know Tamerlane Tsarnaev went to Russia because of a misspelling in his name or on his travel documents. Today DHS Secretary Napolitano told a Senate committee that they did know about Tsarnaev’s travel to Russia. She said the system pinger when he left the country but the investigation had been closed by the time he returned.

    So they delayed his citizenship because of his questionable ties and actions, at the same time they closed his intelligence file. At the very least, this is a classic bureaucratic screwup, although I also suspect it reflects a PC mentality at the FBI regarding Muslim suspects.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  145. System pinged, not pinger. I fixed it twice and auto-correct still won.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  146. DRJ, Some people just like to go thru life with their eyes wide shut. They feel safer that way.

    peedoffamerican (a84075)

  147. ‘One ping, Vassili,’ from Hunt for Red October, was what that reminded me off,

    narciso (3fec35)

  148. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 4/23/2013 @ 10:14 am

    There is some immigration rule about being so many days out of the country while citizenship is pending (don’t ask me for details, immigration law makes my head spin) so that may have been the reason for the delay.

    But, but, but … that is the f***ing reason f***ing DHS was created to get rid of that f***ing c**k block f***ing Gorelick had created between the various f***ing services so that they could f***ing share information we wouldn’t get c*** punted again after 9/11.

    nk (875f57)


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