Patterico's Pontifications

4/10/2013

Gun Deal With Toomey on Board?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:49 am



Looks like they are close:

A bipartisan group of Senate negotiators signaled Tuesday night that it has reached a deal in principle on expanding background checks to include more gun sales, in what was widely seen as the major sticking point on the biggest gun control legislation to reach the floor since 1994.

Sens. Joe Manchin III, D-W.Va., and Patrick J. Toomey, R-Pa., said they would hold a news conference at 11 a.m. Wednesday to discuss the details of the tentative deal, which was reached with the support of Sen. Charles E. Schumer, D-N.Y., and could entice a significant number of other lawmakers to sign on. Schumer told reporters that some details still needed to be worked out but that “we’re closer than we’ve ever been.”

“Tomorrow we hope to finalize it,” Manchin said Tuesday night. A Toomey spokesman added, “Sens. Toomey and Manchin continue to work on final details, but they appear close to a deal.”

The details are what matter.

106 Responses to “Gun Deal With Toomey on Board?”

  1. Reid filed cloture Tuesday night on the motion to proceed to the bill (S 649), which, besides expanding background checks, would impose new criminal penalties on gun traffickers and authorize new funding for school security measures

    spend, toomey, spend!

    because “school security” is a federal responsibility

    gotta slop those piggies, toomtoom

    that’s what you were elected for

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  2. after all, the kids belong to all of us

    isn’t that right toomtoom?

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  3. If Chuckles Gun Grabber Schumer agreed to it, it is a sucky deal.

    JD (b63a52)

  4. If they insist on the byzantine system that criminalizes normal transfers and borrowing, etc … it is a non-starter.

    JD (b63a52)

  5. As DeMint says today, none of these azzhats know what’s in the bill until they read it. Wait for the book tape.

    Really great effin’ job, Roobs. Or should I call youse Mav Jr?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  6. First, it seems the issue these days is political gamesmanship as much as making legislation happen. Who knows if obama really wants to pass something or just keep making a lot of emotional noise in anticipation of 2014. Do Toomy and Manchin really want to create better policy, does Toomy want to present a rational bill that forces the Dems to oppose it,
    and who shot JR?

    Beck this am was saying there have already been episodes of people in NY being told to turn their guns in on the basis of relatively incidental things in their medical records. It sounded legit (the complaint, not the policy).

    ONE THING (yes, that was shouting) that people often do not think about, and that is whether some things like background checks and psych history recording will actually turn out to make things worse.
    For example, back in Spain under Franco there was a time when people suspected of having TB were forced to be moved into asylums. All this did actually was make sick people hide their symptoms as best as possible and stay away from doctors who would notify the authorities. Then there was a change of policy focused more on treating people than isolation and saw more people come forward for evaluation and treatment. After a year or so they saw an even bigger increase in the number of people seeking treatment. As it turned out it took awhile for people to believe that the government really had good intentions.
    Of course, during the time when people were afraid to get help it just made the problem worse for the country.

    Sometimes it is hard enough to get people who need it to seek psych care. Let them know their name will be kept on some registry, well …
    just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  7. Beck this am was saying there have already been episodes of people in NY being told to turn their guns in on the basis of relatively incidental things in their medical records. It sounded legit (the complaint, not the policy).

    Like a law abiding citizen losing his gun license over the actions of his 10 year old child.

    JD (b63a52)

  8. When will we have a national conversation on the banning of assault knives?

    JD (b63a52)

  9. When will the actual criteria that determines one is not allowed to purchase a firearm be made public? Is there some wording in the proposed law that exempts it from HIPAA, thereby allowing gun sales businesses privy to one’s health records?

    Are those TROs that are issued at the scene of every claimed event of domestic violence, regardless of an arrest or prosecution following, something that disqualifies a purchaser?

    There are way too many undisclosed issues here. The next Constitutional amendment needs to ban event-driven legislation.

    gramps (82733e)

  10. Perhaps NY state did the rest of us a favor by passing a law with “unintended” consequences that are too much for the public to accept.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  11. From what I read the law requires a background check for every gun “transfer.” Not sales, transfers.

    Which means if you’re hunting with a friend and he wants to try out your rifle, you can’t let him have a go with it without packing up and heading to an FFL dealer and running a background check. Or else you’re federal felons.

    I really don’t see how it’s supposed to work. If you’re hunting and you need to cross an obstacle like a fence the safest thing to do is have one person cross while the other holds both guns. Then hand over the guns to the first while the second crosses.

    Under this bill I suppose that would be two counts of “illegal gun transfers” for the both of you.

    Steve57 (be3310)

  12. Without having read it, no.

    I suspect if I read it, [REDACTED] NO !

    htom (412a17)

  13. ==When will we have a national conversation==

    Our “national conversations” lately all seem to be one sided, leftist oriented, and media driven. Have you noticed that, JD?

    elissa (5a3118)

  14. Steve57, very close to that. It is a bill filled with traps to make gunowners into criminals. Discussed at blog “Shall Not Be Questioned”. I will link later.

    SPQR (be299c)

  15. Yes, elissa, when the left says we need to have a conversation they expect no back talk. Just a constant lecture from them to the rest of us until we give them everything they want.

    I’ve read an update; apparently the “universal” background check requirement I described above has been dropped from the bill. But it still could be pretty bad and criminalize a lot of perfectly normal activity that has been going on for a hundred years and is in no way crime related.

    Our congresscritters just don’t think they’re doing their jobs unless they’re inventing new felonies.

    Steve57 (be3310)

  16. Thanks, SPQR.

    Steve57 (be3310)

  17. Our “national conversations” lately all seem to be one sided, leftist oriented, and media driven. Have you noticed that, JD?

    They are called lectures.

    JD (f67592)

  18. Somebody needs to start a glossary of liberal terms.

    Like when they say X will be “asked to contribute” a bit more, they mean “we’re going to confiscate” from X.

    As in, EU and Cypriot officials have said that the citizens of Cyprus will be “asked to contribute” more to bailing out the country than the initial “contribution” they weren’t asked about before the government took it anyway.

    Aw, hell. It’s not really necessary. We all know they’re pirates.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  19. An enormous amount of traction that gun control gets in this country comes from the fact that most people are utterly unaware of how much regulation already exists.

    Example: supposedly the compromise bill requires background checks on internet sales. But any transaction that involves interstate already requires a background check by an FFL. So … its going to be illegaller ?

    SPQR (6862c1)

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  22. Comment by Steve57 (be3310) — 4/10/2013 @ 10:05 am

    Not sales, transfers.

    Which means if you’re hunting with a friend and he wants to try out your rifle, you can’t let him have a go with it without packing up and heading to an FFL dealer..

    They are almost certainly not going to define “transfer” that way in the law.

    The big problem here is that this does nothing about straw buyers, or more precisely, dealers that sell a lot of guns to straw buyers.

    The “gun-control” proposals are themselves already satisfactiory to the gun lobby.

    What might work is something like this:

    1) Require at least two unrelated persons of two different sexes not living at the same address with the person wanting to a license to buy a gun to vouch for the bonafides and the skill of the person wanting a license to buy a gun.

    If anything goes wrong, there is some kind of serious civil penalty, high enough to discourage anyone from taking chances, low enough so it doesn’t preclude sponsorship.

    2) De-license and fine any dealer that sold more than say 3 guns that wound up being used in a crime within 3 years (not counting maybe if the crime was committed by persons the gun was sold to) Keep records of all guns sold so they can quixkly be traced to the store that pout it into circulation.

    3) Limit magazine capacity to 5 or 6 rounds – for everyone, including police, and do something to render all existing magazines obsolete, by, for instance, mandating that all new ammunition be incompatible with the old magazines.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  23. The problem is straw buyers and I don’t think the bill does anything about the few gun stores that know very well they are selling to straw buyers.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  24. Sammy, once again you are opining upon something you are uninformed upon. Schumer’s legislation on “universal background checks” did criminalize even temporary transfers with some extraordinarily narrow exceptions.

    And how does limiting magazines to 5 or 6 rounds (which would ban 99% of magazines in existance – and there are not 5 or 6 round capacity magazines available for 90% of magazine firearms) “work”?

    Your comments on gun control topics are just bizarre.

    SPQR (6862c1)

  25. Sammy, “straw buyers” are already illegal.

    You want to make them illegaller?

    SPQR (6862c1)

  26. New York’s SAFE act ban on magazines above seven rounds was so stupid (and making it illegal to put more than seven in grandfathered 10 round magazines criminalizes being unable to count … irrational ) that New York is already admitting that it can’t work, and they won’t enforce it.

    SPQR (6862c1)

  27. SPQR – it is funny you mention that. I was just reading a NYT article where they used a loaded poll to make it seem like gun regulations are as lax as the Wild West, and if people only knew that, they would gladly accept more gun controls.

    JD (f67592)

  28. They are almost certainly not going to define “transfer” that way in the law.

    Except MAIG did in Colorado.

    JD (f67592)

  29. The “gun-control” proposals are themselves already satisfactiory to the gun lobby.

    Wrong. NRA opposes them.

    JD (f67592)

  30. 2) De-license and fine any dealer that sold more than say 3 guns that wound up being used in a crime within 3 years

    So you would have gun dealers be in the fortune telling business?

    JD (f67592)

  31. JD, that’s exactly the tactic I’m talking about. Its a constant one. Its reinforced with outright lies (did you know all guns sold at gun shows w/o background checks! Lie) and like Obama’s brazen lie about the firearm at the Newtown shooting being fully automatic.

    SPQR (6862c1)

  32. 3) Limit magazine capacity to 5 or 6 rounds – for everyone, including police, and do something to render all existing magazines obsolete, by, for instance, mandating that all new ammunition be incompatible with the old magazines.

    A de facto ban would never pass Constitutional muster.

    JD (f67592)

  33. JD, I couldn’t find any statement of “fact” in Sammy’s comment that was correct.

    And the idea that someone’s livelihood should be taken from them because a third party committed a crime would be rather obviously outrageous to anyone who could think.

    SPQR (6862c1)

  34. Comment by SPQR (6862c1) — 4/10/2013 @ 1:37 pm

    And the idea that someone’s livelihood should be taken from them because a third party committed a crime would be rather obviously outrageous to anyone who could think.

    The New York State Liquor Authority does that all the time.

    It all depends on the conditions that would cause a license to be lost.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  35. Comment by SPQR (6862c1) — 4/10/2013 @ 1:37 pm

    And the idea that someone’s livelihood should be taken from them because a third party committed a crime would be rather obviously outrageous to anyone who could think.

    See, for example:

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/03/whos_to_blame_for_new_roosevel.html

    http://sunthisweek.com/2013/02/01/restaurant-loses-liquor-license-amid-public-safety-concerns-2/

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/27/showbiz/wip-license-suspended

    http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/A-Town-Of-Beloit-Tavern-Could-Lose-Its-Liquor-License-195792401.html

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  36. Comment by JD (f67592) — 4/10/2013 @ 1:36 pm

    3) Limit magazine capacity to 5 or 6 rounds – for everyone, including police, and do something to render all existing magazines obsolete, by, for instance, mandating that all new ammunition be incompatible with the old magazines.

    A de facto ban would never pass Constitutional muster.

    If Congress can regulate interstate commerce, they can do that, and The Supreme Court has I think has only said that people have the right to possess guns in common use, and npbody’s cvha;;enging laws that say things like that all guns must be painted black, or look like people’s idea of a gun, por prohibit machine guns, so why not get guns out of common use? And collectors could still have them. As the price went up, there’d be a diminishing chance of them being used in any crime. The change to higher capacity magazines has not been of any benefit to anyone, not that I know of.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  37. * get certain types of guns out of common use. There’s acase to be made for guns, too, in certain cases. Not much for one that fires large numbers of bullets one after the other.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  38. Sammy, you can pass any laws you want.

    the trick is enforcing them: what are you going to do when a large portion of the population tells you to go attempt aerial intercourse with a rotating pastry?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  39. “The big problem here is that this does nothing about straw buyers, or more precisely, dealers that sell a lot of guns to straw buyers.”

    Sammy – When you fill out a background questionnaire to purchase a gun you are forced to swear upside down and sideways under penalty of imprisonment that you are not purchasing the weapon for somebody else. What else do you believe should be added to prevent straw purchases, psychics in every gun store?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  40. If Congress can regulate interstate commerce, they can do that, and The Supreme Court has I think has only said that people have the right to possess guns in common use,

    Abject nonsense.

    JD (07c8d1)

  41. I don’t understand why the GOP doesn’t just refuse to do anything on this issue. We have the house. The issue can be settled right there by refusing to budge. The democrats to this all the time.

    Dustin (6e7388)

  42. Straw purchases are difficult to control, daleyrocks, until a crime is traced back to the purchaser, who is then prosecuted for knowingly buying the gun for someone who obviously shouldn’t have one. Granted, such prosecution would be difficult, but the threat thereof might make the straw purchaser think twice.

    Sammy finkleman, kudos for standing up to the NRA and the acolytes who spread their propaganda for the gun lobby!

    Perry (299c3e)

  43. Because they are cowards, Dustin. They are afraid Obama and the MFM will blame them, label them obstructionist, and they are more concerned about getting elected and having power than standing up for actual enumerated Rights. I am working on a post about McCain and his wacky statement about he doesn’t understand why anyone might filibuster this nonsense, his view of the role of he Senate, etc.

    JD (07c8d1)

  44. “Straw purchases are difficult to control, daleyrocks”

    Perry – You really think so? Because straw purchases are already illegal now and we have some evidence that criminals do not necessarily follow established law, what part of proposed gun control laws relating to background checks do you see having a deterrent effect on straw purchases?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  45. Perry – kudos for standing up against the 2nd Amendment.

    Straw purchases are a strawman. They are already illegal, and nothin that the leftist gun grabbers are advancing will fix the problems they claim to want to solve.

    JD (07c8d1)

  46. The change to higher capacity magazines has not been of any benefit to anyone, not that I know of.

    maybe you should get out more? home invasions by multiple criminals are a routine occurrence these days, as anyone who pays attention knows.

    while i have a deep and abiding faith in the stopping power of the weapons i have chosen for my self defense, arbitrarily limiting the capacity of them in the name of “doing something” places a dangerous burden on me that i categorically decline to assume.

    while you might be happy to gamble with your personal safety & well-being by either being un or underarmed, i utterly reject the concept that you, or the government for that matter, has either the right or the authority to put my life in potential jeopardy just so you can feel good about yourself.

    the government derives its powers from the just consent of the governed, and i’m not consenting, willingly OR under duress.

    Molon Labe.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  47. http://qkme.me/3tu587

    Colonel Haiku (7d6f25)

  48. PS: besides home invasions, there is the ongoing problems with wilding mobs in public.

    while the MFM is studiously ignoring the problem, since the crimes are generally race based, that doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist.

    thus, if i am carrying concealed in public, i, and everyone around me, are better off if i have a normal size capacity magazine in my weapon.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  49. Perry and Sammy – Do you have any information on how big a problem the issue of straw purchasers is relative to gun violence?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. you mean besides the straw purchases that Holder & Obama deliberately allowed for Fast & Furious?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  51. redc1c4 – That’s different.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  52. Sammy, AR 15’s in civilian hands number around 5 million. That’s common use.

    And the rest of your “proposals” make no sense at all – they are incoherent as is usually the case when you comment on gun matters. You can’t ban common calibers of ammunition to make existing magazines obsolete. There are millions of rounds of ammunition in circulation too – its just a ludicrous idea.

    Straw purchasers are not hard to prosecute. That’s a lie that this administration has been telling for years now, its that prosecuting straw purchasers is a low priority. Just as prosecuting prohibited persons attempts to purchase firearms is a low priority. Nothing about proposed background check legislation makes prosecuting straw purchasers “easier”.

    SPQR (768505)

  53. Sammy has been listening to Diana DeGette on firearms …

    SPQR (768505)

  54. From Schumer’s legislation, here is an exception to the ban on transfers w/o a background check:

    … a temporary transfer of possession without transfer of title made in connection with lawful hunting or sporting purposes if the transfer occurs—
    (i) at a shooting range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in firearms and the firearm is, at all times, kept within the premises of the shooting range;

    Now, I anxiously await Sammy explaining to me why it should be OK for me to let my friend shoot my firearm at a range that is owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in firearms … but if I let my friend shoot my firearm at the indoor range a couple of miles away located inside a gun shop, and owned by a sole proprietor; then its a Federal Felony.

    SPQR (768505)

  55. 56. From Schumer’s legislation, here is an exception to the ban on transfers w/o a background check:

    … a temporary transfer of possession without transfer of title made in connection with lawful hunting or sporting purposes if the transfer occurs—
    (i) at a shooting range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in firearms and the firearm is, at all times, kept within the premises of the shooting range;

    Now, I anxiously await Sammy explaining to me why it should be OK for me to let my friend shoot my firearm at a range that is owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in firearms … but if I let my friend shoot my firearm at the indoor range a couple of miles away located inside a gun shop, and owned by a sole proprietor; then its a Federal Felony.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 4/10/2013 @ 6:14 pm

    So if you’re crossing a fence on some farmer’s land where you just have permission to hunt pheasants and hand your friend your shotgun, or getting up a steep embankment in a national forest and hand your partner your rifle, that wouldn’t be a legal transfer. Because as far as I know none of that happens on a shooting range.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  56. At least no “incorporated shooting range” I’ve ever hunted on.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  57. Steve57, if you look at the link above, I did not quote all the exceptions – there is a separate hunting exception.

    However, the hunting exception reads:

    while hunting or trapping, if—
    (I) the activity is legal in all places where the unlicensed transferee possesses the firearm;

    (II) the temporary transfer of possession occurs during the designated hunting season; and

    (III) the unlicensed transferee holds any required license or permit.

    So if the person you loaned a gun to hunt with then crosses the road to go from one field to another, its a federal felony (because in most states its illegal to hunt on a road). Or if you loan him the gun at your house, before leaving, its a federal felony because you are in town, where hunting is prohibited. Or if he puts the loaned gun in his truck, and drives into town for lunch, its a federal felony.

    I’m still anxiously awaiting Sammy or Perry explaining how these legal traps make sense.

    SPQR (768505)

  58. Actually I just checked your link, SPQR, and as I understand it passing your hunting buddy your shotgun or rifle under those circumstances would probably be legal under most circumstances.

    It’s just that now it’s legal under all circumstances.

    I don’t like the size of the box they’re building form me.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  59. Steve57, this was Schumer’s preferred language for “universal background checks” and why I’ve said that “universal background checks” is a lie – his bill is about criminalizing ordinary gun owners.

    SPQR (768505)

  60. SPQR, that’s what I saw, too.

    I’m still anxiously awaiting Sammy or Perry explaining how these legal traps make sense.

    They make perfect sense if you want to make legal gun ownership too expensive and too hazardous to even attempt. And turn those who attempt it into felons so Chuckie Schumer can harp on how the increase in “gun crime” stats highlights the need for more gun control.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  61. SPQR, yes. Definitely.

    This needs to die in the House.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  62. I think these expanded background checks need to be tied to the use of E-Verify for job hunters.

    “immigrant rights” activists claim the E-Verify database is too flawed to allow its use.

    Well, what about NICS? That database is if anything more screwed up. Yet Obama harps on how it prevents “prohibited persons” from buying guns. No it doesn’t. Most of the people it prevents from buying guns are the victims of false positives. From what I understand over 90% are false positives.

    But if NICS is supposed to be good enough for American citizens to rely on to exercise their rights, then I’ll be damned if I’ll be told E-Verify isn’t good enough for the “immigrant rights” crowd.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  63. Steve57, large numbers of denials are indeed false positives. Largely from sloppy records from courts that fail to upload dismissals of charges and/or relate plea bargains to the original arrest/charges of more serious crimes.

    SPQR (768505)

  64. Just wait until they get more heavily into the “mental health” field. Oh, wait, they are. Take a look at the NY SAFE act.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  65. SAFE is unconstitutional from A to Z …

    They couldn’t even pass it legally.

    SPQR (768505)

  66. I trust Toomey not to agree to a bad bill.

    spend, toomey, spend!

    because “school security” is a federal responsibility

    gotta slop those piggies, toomtoom

    that’s what you were elected for

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 4/10/2013 @ 7:27 am

    after all, the kids belong to all of us

    isn’t that right toomtoom?

    Um, feets, this is Patrick Toomey we’re talking about. I think we can trust him not to be a spendy Spencer.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  67. I find it nigh to impossible to comprehend the political calculus of quasi-TEA bait types like Rubio, Toomey and R. Johnson.

    Obviously the myriad protections in their bills, non-enforcement of borders in Roobs’ case, or exemption of friendly transfers in Toomey’s will just be ignored.

    We get amnesty and national gun registration, its that simple, and thousands of new hires and scores of new budgets.

    In Johnsons’ case gets marked as associating with corruptocrats dining while R. Paul filibustered.

    The Party of Stupid is nowhere bound than extinction.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  68. Republicans are progressive twits.
    They all suck.
    Reloading for my own personal health care.

    mg (31009b)

  69. It’s a cunning, cunning, plan, gary, as Baldrick would arrange;

    narciso (3fec35)

  70. Via the Other McCain:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/293155-invited-rubio-may-miss-obama-dinner

    The unruly, irascible Mr. McCain calls Toomey a ‘performer of fellatio’. Unlike our POTUS, I’m not aware of witnesses to the fact.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  71. Mr. Milhouse the same people who told me toomtoom wwas a fiscal hawk also told me porky porky chris christie was fiscally responsible

    and yet what I find is I’m paying taxes this year for him to slop a buncha jersey shore snooki piggies

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  72. *was* a fiscal hawk I mean

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  73. 73. I can understand the UnderSheriff’s dismay at Christians being singled out as dangerous. We’re to be expecting as much, after all.

    But I rather expect that conservatives of any stripe are being implicitly defined ‘sovereign citizens’, those who believe the ‘government works for us’.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  74. Happyfeet, Toomey ran the Club For Growth until his senate campaign got underway. I think he’s safe.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  75. The New York Daily news had the front page saying it was all for nothing – and it seems like Governor Andrew Cuomo doesn’t think this amounts to anything,.

    In the meantime I heard on the Mark Levin show that the Manchin-Toomey amendment hasn’t even been released (or finalized I would say) although they’ve been promising to repease it for 48 hours.

    Writing legislation in back rooms – that’s going on with immigration too.

    Saqmmy Finkelman (d22d64)

  76. Comment by SPQR (768505) — 4/10/2013 @ 5:59 pm

    Straw purchasers are not hard to prosecute.

    They’re not, but that’s like prosecuting low level drug dealers. What you really want to get at are the dealers.

    That’s a lie that this administration has been telling for years now, its that prosecuting straw purchasers is a low priority. Just as prosecuting prohibited persons attempts to purchase firearms is a low priority. Nothing about proposed background check legislation makes prosecuting straw purchasers “easier”.

    That’s right. This whole bill is not aimed at ending straw buying – in fact it pretends that’s not a problem, but the problem is only people buying guns under their own name but passing background checks or not going through them.,

    That’s why this whole bill is a fraud.

    Saqmmy Finkelman (d22d64)

  77. Straw purchasers are not hard to prosecute.

    They’re not, but that’s like prosecuting low level drug dealers. What you really want to get at are the dealers.

    Um, why? What are the dealers doing wrong?

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  78. Milhouse, trying to make sense of Sammy’s comments can be a wasted exercise.

    SPQR (0f76e6)

  79. can be?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  80. I stand corrected.

    SPQR (0f76e6)

  81. R.I.P. Father Emil Kapaun, awarded the MOH for his heroic actions as a POW in the Korean War.

    http://www.army.mil/article/100143/Medal_of_Honor_awarded_to_Army_chaplain/

    Kapaun then contracted pneumonia. The military doctors took care of that as well, Dowe said. After Kapaun recovered, guards became upset that he hadn’t died. They prepared to remove him to the “death camp,” a place where very sick prisoners were taken to die, and where no food or medical attention was given to them.

    When the guards came, “we pushed them away,” Dowe said. “They brought in troops with bayonets and threatened everyone if people didn’t pick him up and carry him away.

    “Father Kapaun told everyone to stop resisting and not to ‘fight them on my behalf.’ I was in tears,” he continued, his voice tinged with emotion. “And then he turned to me and said ‘Mike, don’t cry. I’m going where I’ve always wanted to go. And when I get there, I’ll be saying a prayer for all of you.'”

    After the death of Kapaun, some of the guards who spoke English confided to Dowe that they were afraid of the “unconquerable spirit of a free man loyal only to his God and his country.”

    After the war, which ended in 1953, Dowe was invited to testify to the committee involved in writing the POW Code of Conduct, which is still in effect today. Dowe said Kapaun had a strong influence on him and he shared that with the committee, which emphasized the “loyalty” and “keeping the faith” aspects of the code.

    “Father Kapaun instilled that kind of loyalty in others, enabling them to maintain their honor, self-respect and will to live,” Dowe said. “I’ve seen over and over again that those who did not display that loyalty would invariably give up and die, often within 24 hours.”

    Dowe said Eisenhower gave him a personal commendation for his contribution to the committee. However, Dowe said the real credit should go to Kapaun, whom he credits with saving the lives of hundreds of POWs, directly or indirectly.

    Following the war, Dowe went on to serve in the Army, retiring as a colonel in 1970 and then working as a defense contractor. He currently is a scientist at Raytheon.

    He said he prays to Kapaun every night, asking him for help and guidance. And, he said, he knows Kapaun is in Heaven praying for him and his fellow POWs.

    Dowe said Kapaun had a positive impact on the many non-Catholics in the prison camp as well. He said the commander of the Turkish POWs told him as they were being liberated, “I will pray to my God Allah for Father Kapaun.”

    As the article notes, Father Kapaun is being considered for sainthood by the RCC. He has been named a Servant of God, which is the first step toward canonization.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

    But even if the the Church doesn’t acknowledge him as a saint, still. Father Kapaun, MOH and Servant of God. Bravo Zulu.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  82. The full citation:

    http://www.army.mil/article/100859/Medal_of_Honor_Citation_for_Chaplain__Capt___Emil_J__Kapaun/

    Chaplain (Captain) Emil J. Kapaun
    United States Army

    For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:

    Chaplain Emil J. Kapaun distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty while serving with the 3d Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division during combat operations against an armed enemy at Unsan, Korea, from November 1-2, 1950. On November 1, as Chinese Communist Forces viciously attacked friendly elements, Chaplain Kapaun calmly walked through withering enemy fire in order to provide comfort and medical aid to his comrades and rescue friendly wounded from no-man’s land. Though the Americans successfully repelled the assault, they found themselves surrounded by the enemy. Facing annihilation, the able-bodied men were ordered to evacuate. However, Chaplain Kapaun, fully aware of his certain capture, elected to stay behind with the wounded. After the enemy succeeded in breaking through the defense in the early morning hours of November 2, Chaplain Kapaun continually made rounds, as hand-to-hand combat ensued. As Chinese Communist Forces approached the American position, Chaplain Kapaun noticed an injured Chinese officer amongst the wounded and convinced him to negotiate the safe surrender of the American Forces. Shortly after his capture, Chaplain Kapaun, with complete disregard for his personal safety and unwavering resolve, bravely pushed aside an enemy soldier preparing to execute Sergeant First Class Herbert A. Miller. Not only did Chaplain Kapaun’s gallantry save the life of Sergeant Miller, but also his unparalleled courage and leadership inspired all those present, including those who might have otherwise fled in panic, to remain and fight the enemy until captured. Chaplain Kapaun’s extraordinary heroism and selflessness, above and beyond the call of duty, are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the 3d Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, the 1st Cavalry Division, and the United States Army.

    I find it leaves a great deal out. But then it’s not supposed to be a book.

    Mark 12:31

    “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    To get back on topic, to love your neighbor as Father Kapaun did you must first love yourself. This is where so many purported Christians completely miss the boat. The anti-gun Xtians will say they would die before defending themselves.

    Oh really? And how can you love your neighbor if you love yourself not at all?

    Your life is not yours to give. It’s a gift of God. Your freedom is not your to give. It’s a gift of men and women like Father Kapaun.

    We are just the temporary custodians. I’ll be damned before I bequeath a more enslaved, impoverished nation to my heirs than the one that at the start of my life I entered.

    I’d be willing to look the Newton parents in the eye and tell them that, too. I’m very sorry for their loss, but they haven’t suffered the only loss. I am also sensitive to what those who laid down their life for the cause of freedom have lost. I see it as my duty to preserve their legacy.

    This bill needs to die in the House.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  83. 87. Peter King (R-NY) promises the Manchin-Toomey compromise will be introduced in the House.

    Boehner has telegraphed his preference for passing Immigration and Background Checks over keeping his job.

    Pass the popcorn.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  84. 87.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/us/politics/father-emil-j-kapaun-awarded-medal-of-honor.html?_r=0

    …At such ceremonies, the president, who wrote a best-selling memoir, seems to relish the narrative of a compelling tale. For this one, he went beyond the citation, saying “the incredible story of Father Kapaun does not end there.”

    Since the priest was from a small town near Wichita, Kan., like Mr. Obama’s grandparents who helped raise him, “I have a sense of the man he was,” Mr. Obama said. He told of how Father Kapaun carried Mr. Miller and helped soldiers who faltered on a forced march to a prisoner-of-war camp, where the Chinese sent them after the attack. Through the winter, as the American prisoners froze to death, he offered his clothes, sneaked out to bring back grain and cleaned the soldiers’ wounds….

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  85. “Straw purchasers are not hard to prosecute.”

    SF: They’re not, but that’s like prosecuting low level drug dealers. What you really want to get at are the dealers.

    Comment by Milhouse (15b6fd) — 4/11/2013 @ 5:29

    Um, why? What are the dealers doing wrong?

    Selling guns to people they know are going to do something illegal.

    A very small number of stores are responsible for a large number of illegal guns,, although the NRA doesn’t want anyone to collect statistics on this.

    pm

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  86. Since the priest was from a small town near Wichita, Kan., like Mr. Obama’s grandparents who helped raise him, “I have a sense of the man he was,” Mr. Obama said.

    He talks remarkably little of God, Sammy, for someone who would pretend to have a “sense of the man.”

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  87. A very small number of stores are responsible for a large number of illegal guns,, although the NRA doesn’t want anyone to collect statistics on this.

    and you have a reputable cite to support this claim, right?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  88. Barack Obama has no doubt a great sense of the class consciousness he was mentored to believe we’re all supposed to develop.

    Certainly it’s a great let-down to him when we don’t develop it.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  89. Comment by Steve57 (b238b6) — 4/12/2013 @ 5:06 am

    what he said.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  90. Certainly it’s a great let-down to him when we don’t develop it.

    i can’t imagine lowering myself to the point where i might actually consider adopting any standard our SCOAMF felt was worthwhile.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  91. Since the priest was from a small town near Wichita, Kan., like Mr. Obama’s grandparents who helped raise him, “I have a sense of the man he was,” Mr. Obama said.

    You have got to be kidding me.

    JD (f5b0a4)

  92. You have got to be kidding me.

    JD, the guy who is being sued by the Catholic Church over his HHS mandate isn’t kidding you.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  93. JD, he knows who this priest was. Down to the bone. Like all those other bitter clingers.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  94. New York victory over crime – thanks to Stop and Frisk of course where you have somebody suing the city and you need a mayor prepared top defend it and not agree to anything – and thanks to New wYork’s gun laws – which may go too far, of course:

    From Bill Ritter’s journal (WABC Channel 7 News)

    Behind the News with Bill Ritter

    Friday, April 12, 2013

    53 days

    And you say we don’t report good news? Tonight in the 2-square-miles that comprise the 44th New York police precinct in the Bronx, something of a celebration. It’s been 53 days since the last reported or recorded shooting. This is an area known for violence, in large part from street gangs, covering the Concourse, Highbridge and Mt. Eden neighborhoods.

    The nearly 8-week “streak” is the longest non-shooting spree in recent memory, say authorities, who say the lull is in large part because of an “intelligence-driven” crackdown on gangs.

    Tim Fleischer has the story, at 11….

    In Chicago there is no stoip and frisk, and when somebody is caught with a gun, or uses it, they don’t go to jail. Philadelphia also doesd not have stop and frisk but Los Angeles does.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  95. 92.
    SF: A very small number of stores are responsible for a large number of illegal guns,, although the NRA doesn’t want anyone to collect statistics on this.

    Comment by redc1c4 (403dff) — 4/12/2013 @ 12:24 pm

    and you have a reputable cite to support this claim, right?

    I am pretty confident that is correct. I think gun rights organizations say that too. I also think this cannot be made up.

    Fiirst, let’s get a cite – maybe a not impartial one:

    http://gunvictimsaction.org/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-illegal-gun-trafficking-arms-criminals-and-youth/

    Corrupt federally licensed gun dealers: Federally licensed gun dealers send more guns to the criminal market than any other single source. Nearly 60% of the guns used in crime are traced back to a small number—just 1.2%—of crooked gun dealers. Corrupt dealers frequently have high numbers of missing guns, in many cases because they’re selling guns “off the books” to private sellers and criminals. In 2005, the ATF examined 3,083 gun dealers and found 12,274 “missing” firearms.

    •Straw purchasing: Straw purchasing is the most common way criminals get guns, accounting for almost 50% of trafficking investigations. A straw purchaser is someone with a clean record who buys guns on behalf of someone legally prohibited from possessing guns. Straw purchasers are often the friends, relatives, spouses or girlfriends of prohibited purchasers. The two Columbine High School shooters recruited friends to buy guns for them at Colorado gun shows. One of the buyers admitted she would not have bought the guns if she had been required to submit to a background check.

    •Gun Shows and private gun sales: Gun shows have been called “Tupperware parties for criminals” because they attract large numbers of prohibited buyers. A loophole in federal law allows unlicensed or “private” sellers, many of whom work out of gun shows, to lawfully sell or transfer guns without conducting a criminal background check. Gun show dealers have been known to advertise to criminals with signs that read “no background checks required here.”

    Their source seems to be the BATF. Gun shows of course are not the way illegal guns get into the market. Gun shows are not the problem. It’s one on one, too small scale. Gun shows didn’t use to exist I understand, 20 ir so years ago.

    Oh, here is where they say they get the 1.2% figure:

    •Keeping crime gun trace information secret: Until 2002, the ATF released aggregate crime gun trace reports to local police departments, researchers, policymakers and public safety advocates. The reports revealed for the first time that 1.2% of federally licensed gun dealers supply 57% of the guns used in crime. But, bowing to pressure from the gun lobby, Congress voted to restrict police access to crime gun trace data and cut off public access altogether. These restrictions, known as the Tiahrt Amendments (named for the Kansas Congressman who sponsored the bill), have passed in every Department of Justice budget since 2003, despite the fact that prominent law enforcement associations oppose them as a serious threat to public safety.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  96. Sammy, I know I speak for a great many of us when I tell you, from the heart, I enjoy knowing you live in New York.

    Steve57 (b238b6)

  97. USA Today editorial:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/03/21/gun-dealers-inventory-atf-editorials-debates/2007657/

    Gun dealers protected by Congress: Our view”

    News story about a particular gun dealer:

    http://blog.bradycampaign.org/2009/09/notorious-philadelphia-gun-dealer-pleads-guilty-to-facilitating-straw-purchases/?s=1

    with a link I think to the paper containing the
    1.2 figure:

    http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/Commerce_in_Firearms_2000.pdf

    Here is a cite from 1989 but I don;t knmow whjat it says:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22669643

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  98. Sammy, why do you keep lying about the NRA? I have called you on your fabrications before.

    SPQR (ee5911)

  99. Breitbart is reporting SCOTUS is currently considering NY Gun law challenge by 5 denied conceal carry permits for insufficient need.

    I’m thinking Posner has sort of stacked the deck on this one.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

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  101. 40.“The big problem here is that this does nothing about straw buyers, or more precisely, dealers that sell a lot of guns to straw buyers.”

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/10/2013 @ 2:57

    Sammy – When you fill out a background questionnaire to purchase a gun you are forced to swear upside down and sideways under penalty of imprisonment that you are not purchasing the weapon for somebody else. What else do you believe should be added to prevent straw purchases, psychics in every gun store?

    You could add a little bit to the buyer – like making them responsible for any felonies committed with the gun – but somehow most gun stores have a way of telling.What happens is someone comes in but the person doing the buying is not the same person asking all the questions.

    This new bill actually tried to immuunize individuals who pass along guns just like they do dealers.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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