Patterico's Pontifications

4/9/2013

Immigration Reform!!!!!

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:45 pm



The “Gang of Eight” has a bogus crap immigration proposal a brewin’.

Senate negotiators on Tuesday were putting the finishing touches on a bipartisan immigration bill as labor and agriculture groups argued about restrictions on immigrant farmworkers and their pay, lawmakers and officials involved in the negotiations said.

“We’re making progress. We’re trying to get it done this week,” Senator John McCain told reporters.

The Arizona Republican is one of eight Democrats and Republicans in the Senate trying to cobble together a complicated bill that would update immigration laws for the first time since 1986.

. . . .

The linchpin of the immigration bill would end deportation fears for most of the approximately 11 million people who are living in the United States illegally, many from Central America and Asia. The legislation would eventually put many of them on a path to citizenship, if further progress was made in securing the southwestern border with Mexico.

There actually is room for “immigration reform” — just maybe not what you think.

I used to think that people who wanted to come here from Mexico could do so, although they would have to wait a while. If people were willing to wait in line, I thought, why should the line get jumped by people who broke the law to come here?

But then, I listened to this Planet Money episode from NPR, and listened to an economist say that if you are an unskilled worker from Mexico with no relatives here, the waiting list to come to the U.S. is . . .

130 years.

Clearly, there is economic demand for unskilled workers from Mexico. But if you’re following the law, there is no way you can come legally.

No. Way.

Now. I don’t want people coming here a) with the possibility of carrying communicable diseases like TB; b) with no background check; and/or c) who have broken the law to get here.

I think it’s unrealistic to deport over 10 million people, but I have no problem with it in theory.

So my general idea would be: if you want to get in line, we’ll make the line realistic. If you don’t, we’re not pandering to you and giving you citizenship. You can live in the proverbial shadows as far as I am concerned.

So here is my off the cuff, totally unresearched, random immigration proposal.

Your options: live in the shadows, or become a legal immigrant. We will liberalize the rules for green card holders from Mexico like mad. Whether you are skilled or not. Whether you have family here or not.

But you go back and get in line. We’ll make the line realistic for once. But get in line.

You don’t like the line? Enjoy the shadows.

That’s my idea. You tell me where I am wrong.

94 Responses to “Immigration Reform!!!!!”

  1. And I can see liberalizing rules for people who came here illegally as children.

    It’s pretty simple.

    I like immigrants and I like the free market.

    But I like my immigrants to be disease free, to not be criminals, and to follow the law.

    So let’s liberalize the hell out of the law and let in Mexicans who are disease and crime free, like mad. As much as demand will allow.

    But make them do it legally.

    They don’t want to do it legally, it’s the shadows and the eternal threat of deportation. Make your choice.

    I think that is fair, respects the law, and makes sense.

    It may hurt Republican electoral prospects but so be it.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Crazy with the memes, I am.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  3. Arrest all employers that hire these illegals.
    Deportation by rounding them up like cattle, works for me.
    Lost wages over the last 10 years will not make me sensitive to illegal aliens.
    Are govt. is bush league.

    mg (31009b)

  4. > Crazy with the memes, I am.
    And suddenly it’s like I’m on >>>/pol/ ;_;

    The Sage (ba2a4c)

  5. I think you (Patterico) are headed in the right direction with one complication: there is a limit to how many immigrants we can successfully assimilate per year. I suspect that limit collides with the goal of making the line shorter in years.

    Ken in Camarillo (2c0dee)

  6. I like immigrants and I like the free market.

    That’s the problem isn’t it? We have the first but not the second. We really have more of a socialist economy with many free market features. And one aspect of a socialist economy are the government benefits.

    Grover Norquist tries to make the “free market” argument for essentially open borders with Mexico. When the subject of the burden on the welfare state comes up, he insists you shouldn’t “screw up” your immigration policy because of a stupid government program. Fix the government program.

    Hello! The liberals who advocate the same open borders policy Norquist is advocating are doing so precisely because they intend to expand the government program. To create clients.

    3. Arrest all employers that hire these illegals.

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 4/10/2013 @ 12:34 am

    Actually as an employer you’re more likely to get arrested, or at least hauled into court by the DoJ, by trying too hard not to hire illegals.

    If the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986 (and amended over the years) didn’t exist I could do far more to ensure I don’t hire illegal aliens. You would think from the name of the law it was intended to restrict illegal immigration, wouldn’t you mg? That’s not how Congress works. It actually has a lot of restrictions on employers to prevent “discrimination” based upon perceived immigration status.

    When I hear of the DoJ enforcing “immigration law” against some employer my first reaction is some poor slob demanded too much documentation from an applicant.

    It shouldn’t be hard to believe. The feds go after employers with the same zeal they go after states like Arizona if they step on the toes of the feds who do not want to see anyone stemming the flow of illegal aliens.

    Steve57 (be3310)

  7. My oldest cousin, a few years back when she was about 30, married a man from Argentina. A few years later, when they had had two kids together and it was obvious that this was not just a “paper marriage” for citizenship purposes, they tried to get him the U.S. citizenship that he was entitled to. It was ridiculously difficult. I don’t remember all the details, but I do remember that at one point, he had to go back to Argentina for several months to apply for the citizenship through the U.S. embassy in his “home” country. This, even though they’d been living (legally) in the U.S. for at least a year at that point, their young kids were in kindergarten, etc.

    They chose not to uproot the kids, so she stayed in the U.S. while he went back to Argentina to work through the ludicrous red tape. After several months, he was able to rejoin his family. But the U.S. immigration system should not be forcing families to make that kind of choice. Part of any immigration reform certainly needs to be making our legal immigration system sane. And sane laws are not something I think Congress is capable of passing.

    Robin Munn (3ce417)

  8. Steve 57- It’s so hard to have good faith in govt. I think I am coming down with immigration vertigo. I don’t know up from down.

    mg (31009b)

  9. Patterico:

    It’s not that you’re wrong, per se; it’s just that you blithely skipped over all the hard part: Actually “mak[ing] the line realistic for once!”

    You basically take the Phil Donahue route. During an interview with David Letterman, the talk-show host said we shouldn’t have invaded Afghanistan. The following conversation ensued, as near as I can remember:

    “Well,” asked Dave, “what would you do?”

    “I would just go right in there and get Osama bin Laden.”

    “How would you go in there?”

    “I’d just go right in there and get him.”

    “But how exactly? Do you mean with the Army?”

    “No, I’m against war… I mean I would just go right in there and get him.”

    “Get bin Laden?”

    “Yup.”

    “You’d just go right in there and get him.”

    “Exactly!”

    I reckon I’ll set my snooze alarm for when you actually have a plan for making the line realistic…!

    Dafydd

    Dafydd the Particularist (763797)

  10. I would propose that any who stay in the shadows get deported if caught … but not to Mexico … I would suggest Europe …

    JeffC (63de62)

  11. Hey world – just in case you missed it last time, just pay criminals to get you across our border and forge our documents and soon you can be American citizens!

    Don’t obey our laws, only chumps do that. America is the place where cheating is rewarded.

    If we don’t respect our borders, how can we expect anyone else to? If we don’t respect the rule of law…

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  12. if Meghan’s coward daddy is on board then that’s a very good sign this bill sucks ass for america

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  13. I am almost to the point that if McCain supports something, it must be inherently bad.

    JD (b63a52)

  14. he’s squandered every ounce of goodwill to say nothing of his proactive and energetic efforts at establishing himself as an untrustworthy phony, and not a lil bit batty one to boot

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  15. Yes, but what explains Heller and Flake and what not,

    narciso (3fec35)

  16. We have a faction the GOP who value cheap unskilled labor over their fellow citizens who would do these jobs. They did them in my youth, which wasn’t that long ago. It’s laughable that the same people who decry stagnant wages and drops in the quality of middle class Americans wish to now undermine them further by suppressing wages even more.

    And it’s also not only low skilled workers. Silicon Valley would rather employ people from India or China who will be on their campus 7 days a week and work cheap over an American grad who might have a social life outside work and wiah to be well paid. At every turn Big Business is soulless about this. That the GOP fails to recognize this after Obama got most of Silicon Valley and Wall Street’s supporrt in 2 elections is staggeringly dumb. Will anyone stand up for the middle class in this country?

    Until the border is controlled and employers seriously punished for employing illegals, nothing should be done. And this latest bit of stupidity will do neither.

    Bugg (ba4ca9)

  17. Patterico, It looks like your proposal basically boils down to anyone who wants to come here can do so if they start from their home county. If an illegal immigrant from Mexico wants a green card all they need to do is move back to Mexico, pass a health screening and background check and they’re all set. That sounds like a reasonable starting point.
    So, what’s the practical benefit of making them go back to Mexico as part of this process? If we stipulate the background check and health screening will be passed isn’t the trip back home just a waste of their time and resources? I understand your philosophical desire to have the process followed. I’m just wondering if you see any sort of real world gain to it.

    time123 (bec298)

  18. employers seriously punished for employing illegals

    if our embarrassingly cowardly and deeply incompetent and rapaciously fascist government can’t secure the border, it shouldn’t fall on businesses to do it I don’t think

    making it more difficult for people to work and contribute while keeping the food stamp spigot on full throttle is a recipe for America is an effing joke

    not that we need a recipe it’s printed on the back of the box

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  19. And what do you do, with the next 10-20 million, as happened within a generation?

    narciso (3fec35)

  20. If we stipulate the background check and health screening will be passed isn’t the trip back home just a waste of their time and resources?

    Why would we stipulate that?

    JD (b63a52)

  21. mexico’s economy is growing faster than our pitiful little fascist one Mr. narciso

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  22. I think anyone who employs an “undocumented” worker should be heavily fined the first two times they are caught and then jailed for 10 years the next time. If the jobs dried up, the ones who are here to work will return home voluntarily.

    Second, if we cut off welfare, food stamps, medical care and any other government payments, the ones who are here to take advantage of that may return home voluntarily.

    The rest could be rounded up and shipped back.

    If we don’t take these type measures in 20 years this will be known as Estados Unidos and English will be the second language.

    Jim (ba6a58)

  23. yes let’s put employers in jail

    let’s do it for America

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  24. Dafydd,

    I’m the idea man. Others have to carry out my vision!

    By the way, I am sympathetic to those who came here illegally as youngsters, not by choice. The meme beginning this post is not designed to mock such people; it’s an appropriation of an Internet meme called “Success Kid” which is popular just because the picture is funny.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  25. I agree with the general proposal.

    I think the problem is that too many politicians (in my opinion more likely with a D) want to play politics more than govern…Yeah, not a novel or new idea.
    But this I think is one of the best examples, there are many things that could be done to improve some part of the situation, but so far little has been done because too many people want it “all” and they want it “all” their way, so there is stone-walling and political posturing.

    As far as political fall out, if you do what you do for good and just reasons you can have some satisfaction no matter what happens. If your goal is to manipulate results, well, …

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  26. punishment should fit the crime. if the crime is to sneak into a country to make a better life for your family and contribute to a community,
    that’s pretty different from most crimes.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  27. punishment should fit the crime. if the crime is to sneak into a country to make a better life for your family and contribute to a community,
    that’s pretty different from most crimes.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/10/2013 @ 6:46 am

    it really never has been a crime either – its a civil penalty, like not registering your car on time or exceeding your parking meter.

    The Cinco de Mayo parades in the 2004-2006 when the idiots at La Raza ruined a 100 years of good will by scaring Americans by having 100,000 person marches in several cities shouting slogans and waving Mexican flags, flahing gang signs and weapons, is the catalyst that gave birth to the Tea Party. This sent people who were frustrated over the edge into attacking the republicans for not being isolationists which is how the republicans lost power – started to erode the country during WWI by allowing democrat/socialsts who started with the socialist pARTY THE MODERN DEMOCRATS started to becoming mainstream.

    The problem is we are now denying rights to people that were granted rights before and always were. Rick Perry was singled out by Fox and that scumbag Romney that traitorus windbag of a socialist himself, for executingfair and equitable policies that had been in place since 1776.

    Never mind the fact though, the Tea Party is run by a small group of people who are entranced with the limelight they have and as long as they are contrarian to conservatism (which is the practice of pragmatism) the liberal media will be boosting them as the spokespersons for the mass of Tea Party people who are not like this fake leadership and are merely just fed up

    E.PWJ (1cedce)

  28. mexico’s economy is growing faster than our pitiful little fascist one Mr. narciso

    But not necessarily due to the great skills, talents and upward mobility of our neighbor to the south.

    AP, April 5, 2013: Just a decade ago, Mexico’s prospect of exporting much to China seemed distant. Mexican average labor costs were then almost double China’s.

    But a report by a chief economist for Bank of America Merrill Lynch this week estimated that Mexico’s labor costs are now 19.6% lower than China’s.

    But at least Mexico is a generally crime-free, corrupt-free society, at it has been for decades and decades.

    [Insert record scratch sound here]

    Some people (mainly liberals) have wondered why there’s more hand wringing and raised eyebrows about “undocumented” immigrants entering from the south (ie, Mexico) instead of immigrants from the north (ie, Canada). Well — beyond the issue of the volume of arrivals being much larger from one side of our border compared with the other — I guess it’s rooted in the same reason that the typical “latte liberal” (shout out to Barack and Michelle, etc, etc, etc!) will hesitate sending their precious children to a school where the student body is made up mostly of…

    The wonderful, beautiful, generous, non-two-faced, non-hypocritical, non-phony-baloney nature of folks on the left is a sight to behold.

    Mark (9f1e6c)

  29. On other threads, there’s an important caveat to more open immigration.
    In principle, I also agree with open immigration. That’s how my own ancestors got here and my sweetheart’s ancestors.
    My concern now is that immigrants are landing in the safety net and in very significant numbers. The “wretched refuse” of the 19th and early 20th C immigrants landed, formed mutual aid groups, lived in poor conditions at first, and fostered a new generation of Americans who got educated and generally succeeded. The immigrants were not eligible for government assistance and could be excluded if immigration officials thought they were likely to become “public charges”.
    That’s still the theory but it’s not the practice. Many immigrants, usually illegal ones, apply for aid and receive it with, as far as I can tell, little or no investigation of whether they are eligible. That’s a recipe for social suicide; see “California”.
    I would also like to welcome any who will come through the front door and who are prepared to be responsible for themselves. We don’t need — and in the end can’t sustain — a population that will need subsidies when we’re already borrowing 40c of every federal dollar.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  30. If it weren’t for issues like the following, I do admit that the issue of immigration, illegal or otherwise, wouldn’t be quite so aggravating to me.

    city-journal.org, Winter 2012:

    The poor Mexican immigrants who have fueled the transformation — 84 percent of [California’s] Hispanics have Mexican origins — bring an admirable work ethic and a respect for authority too often lacking in America’s native-born population. Many of their children and grandchildren have started thriving businesses and assumed positions of civic and economic leadership. But a sizable portion of Mexican, as well as Central American, immigrants, however hardworking, lack the social capital to inoculate their children reliably against America’s contagious underclass culture. The resulting dysfunction is holding them back and may hold California back as well.

    …Nearly 53 percent of all Hispanic births in California are now out of wedlock, and Hispanics have the highest teen birthrate of all ethnic groups. [Jon] Pederson [a pastor in Santa Ana, Ca] saw similar patterns as a missionary in Central America: teen pregnancy, single-parent families with six or eight serial fathers, and high poverty rates.

    The complicated reality of Hispanic family life in California — often straddling the legitimate and the criminal worlds, displaying both a dogged determination to work and poor decision making that interferes with upward mobilityhelps explain why the state’s Hispanic population has made only modest progress up the educational ladder. Most parents want their children to flourish, yet they may not grasp the study habits necessary for academic success or may view an eighth-grade education as sufficient for finding work. Julian Rodriguez, a Santa Ana gang detective, recalls a case several years ago in which two parents had taken their 14-year-old daughter out of school to care for their new baby—a classic display of “Old World values,” he says.

    A significant portion of Hispanic children lag cognitively, a problem that led David Figueroa Ortega, the Mexican consul general of Los Angeles, to sound the alarm this past October: “Our children, when they arrive in primary school, sometimes arrive behind in skills. They don’t have sufficient training to keep up with the rest of the group.”

    Nationally, 42 percent of Latino children entering kindergarten are in the lowest quartile of reading preparedness, compared with 18 percent of white children, reports UCLA education professor Patricia Gándara in her 2009 book The Latino Education Crisis. By eighth grade, 43 percent of whites and 47 percent of Asians nationally are proficient or better in reading, compared with only 19 percent of Latino students.

    Many of California’s Hispanic students who have been schooled in the U.S. for all their lives and are orally fluent in English remain classified as English learners in high school because they have made so little academic progress. In the Long Beach Unified School District, for example, nearly nine-tenths of English learners entering high school have been in a U.S. school at least since first grade. The lack of progress isn’t due to bilingual education: Long Beach got rid of its last bilingual program in 1998, and the current ninth-grade English learners have been in English-only classrooms all their lives. Some come from families that immigrated to the U.S. two or three generations ago.

    True, Hispanics’ cognitive skills have been improving over the last decade; the percentage of Hispanic eighth-graders deemed proficient in math and reading on the California Standards Tests doubled from 2004 to 2010. But the gap between Hispanics’ performance and that of whites and Asians narrowed only modestly, since white and Asian scores rose as well. Latino students’ rate of B.A. completion from the University of California and California State University is the lowest of all student groups and has slightly declined in recent years, reports the Institute for Higher Education Leadership and Policy at California State University, Sacramento.

    Hispanic underperformance contributes to California’s dismal educational statistics. Only Mississippi had as large a percentage of its eighth-grade students reading at the “below basic” level on the 2011 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP); in eighth-grade math, California came in third, after Alabama and Mississippi, in the percentage of students scoring “below basic.” Only 56 percent of ninth-graders graduate in four years in Los Angeles; statewide, only two-thirds do.

    Upward and onward, America!

    Mark (9f1e6c)

  31. Immigrants are not supposed to be landing in the safety net, are they? Despite Obama pushing them that way, I thought that was one of the criteria on immigration.

    I wish they would poll LEGAL immigrants, that have arrived from all over the globe, and see how they feel about illegal criminal immigration.

    JD (b63a52)

  32. @ JD in comment 21

    Because it makes sense that some who is already here and has TB or a criminal record won’t bother to try and follow the official system. I assume that if you have the brains and drive to sneak into a foreign country and get a job than you’re smart enough to make sure you pass the basic health check before you try and get a green card.

    time123 (bec298)

  33. if you are an unskilled worker from Mexico with no relatives here, the waiting list to come to the U.S. is . . .

    130 years.

    Patterico, be careful with this stat. You’re kind of making it sound like there is no rhyme or reason behind this.

    I have firsthand knowledge of this as my wife (a naturalized citizen) has tried to get relatives into the U.S. without any success.

    USCIS puts countries into categories based on past immigration “performance” of it’s citizens. It may be 130 years for Mexico and Guatemala because people from these countries have a high percentage of visa violations and infringement on U.S. immigration policy, and is over-represented in the immigrant population. So, someone from these countries trying to enter the U.S. the legal way is still viewed with a jaundiced eye. They are believed, for good reason, to be a likely violator of whatever visa they get. Thus, we get 130 years.

    Someone from Norway or France, not so much.

    Frankly, after so many decades of disrespecting the U.S. border I really have little sympathy for someone from these countries NOW trying to do it the legal way. It’s a crazy 130 years because, collectively, they made it that way.

    beer 'n pretzels (6ef50f)

  34. So we should assume good intentions for someone that has demonstrated a fundamental disregard for our rule of law?

    JD (b63a52)

  35. our rule of law isn’t really what it used to be

    the vaunted department of justice is corrupt and fascist and very third world anymore

    but it pays well, and it affords many many thousands of piggy piggy Americans the oppourtunity to do the sort of blatantly in-your-face balls-out fascist jobs what they don’t at all mind doing

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  36. One mistake lies in the assumption that it’s our duty to give jobs and a life to these Mexican immigrants. It’s not. We are 17 trillion in the hole and we don’t have the money to help others this way. We have our own citizens to take care of.

    Here’s an immigration proposal: ten millions dollars paid against our national debt buys you an American citizenship. Done and done.

    luagha (697349)

  37. I agree but think it would be even easier to just buy Mexico with some of Obama money the FED likes so much and then put up a much shorter fence on the new southern border…

    crazy (d60cb0)

  38. Illegals that come in by and large do not yearn for the freedoms we offer. They come for job opportunities and for the benefits of living here. They will just increase the Democrat porting of the voting bloc and finish our demise as a Socialist Welfare State. We cannot afford to do what you feel is right Patterico.

    NJRob (fe68e7)

  39. Could make it that they are not citizens and cannot vote until eevery body from out of the country is processed
    that will be awhile
    legal status in the country, but not the full benefits of citizenship

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  40. 37. The fact is the illegals, in the main, are double and triple dipping. They have jobs, they have food stamps, free education and healthcare.

    They are important to the Mexican economy sending money home. They aid and abet if unknowingly, the criminal element Mexico exports.

    We could go on all morning.

    The fact that there was never a prospect to fix the borders makes this a flustercuck from the get go.

    No.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  41. Not letting illegal aliens vote in our elections is just voter suppression, pure and simple.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. Just because a majority of the American people prefer focusing on border security before addressing a pathway to citizenship does not mean our elected politicians have to pay attention to them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  43. ==I assume that if you have the brains and drive to sneak into a foreign country and get a job than you’re smart enough to make sure you pass the basic health check before you try and get a green card.==

    Assume away–but you’d be very wrong. Instead, you might ask almost any primary school teacher in a “transitioning” neighborhood or school district what diseases and maladies they are seeing in their students regularly now, that were almost non-existent due to vaccinations and a concentration on hygiene a decade ago. The innocent ones may not be at fault (their illegal parents are) but they are still causing a lot of health issues in schools which already have more than enough problems.

    elissa (5a3118)

  44. “37. The fact is the illegals, in the main, are double and triple dipping. They have jobs, they have food stamps, free education and healthcare.

    They are important to the Mexican economy sending money home. They aid and abet if unknowingly, the criminal element Mexico exports.”

    gary – I do not remember being present for the votes the years my local property taxes were increased specifically to provide public services to people in this country illegally. And no, the counter argument that people in this country illegally also pay taxes does not hold any water to the extent they receive subsidized rent, food stamps, free school meals, etc. All that represents is a recycling of my tax dollars.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  45. “Assume away–but you’d be very wrong.”

    elissa – I think we need to implement mandatory national Tardasil vaccinations, except I hear now they are finding out more about serious side effect issues because of how fast they rushed it to market.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  46. Maybe trying to prevent measles and whooping cough would be productive, though.

    elissa (5a3118)

  47. No JD, We should assume the following
    1. They’re not going to do something that isn’t in their self-interest.
    2. They’re smart enough to check the requirements before the start the process.
    3. They’re competent enough to make sure they comply with the requirements before they officially start.

    Regardless, the status of the people who don’t meet the health standards or have criminal records doesn’t really impact the question that I asked.

    time123 (bec298)

  48. Vaccines are teh Debbil. Just ask Jim Carrey.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  49. Ace Ventura is a famous and very knowledgeable go to guy both for health care info and gun info. A real renaissance man, that one.

    elissa (5a3118)

  50. vaccines are my favorite

    vaccines and maple bars

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  51. Edward Jenner, just screams into the either.

    narciso (3fec35)

  52. We just need to stop hating and support open gay borders and protect the rights of homosexual child predators and almost all will be good in the world.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  53. 130 years.

    Clearly, there is economic demand for unskilled workers from Mexico. But if you’re following the law, there is no way you can come legally.

    No. Way.

    Yes, but most of the public doesn’t know that.

    Now. I don’t want people coming here a) with the possibility of carrying communicable diseases like TB;

    Total nonsense. It’s not like you can’t cross the border with TB. If this was to be a consideration, it should apply to short term visitors as well, and to Americans coming back.

    b) with no background check;

    Most background checks are nonsense, although there might be some esasy to tell cases. And when I say that background checks are nonsense, that applies when it comes to gun purchases too. There may be a few obvious checks you can make.

    and/or c) who have broken the law to get here.

    Now worrying about this this is nonsense, and un-American. I mean, the Tea Party was not about obeying the law. I don’t know why people who support enforcing laws admire the Tea Party.

    Or why they are not anxious to crack down on people who import prescription drugs from aborad. Or engage in copyright violation.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  54. i> We’ll make the line realistic for once. But get in line.

    This will definitely work. But the emphasis should be on the word “realistic”

    They don’t want to go there.

    This will mean greatly enlarging or abolishing quotas, (limiting yourself only to setting conditions such as a job or X amount of savings or an insurance policy against destitution) and maybe favoring countries close to the United States. I mean people in Congress.

    This so called compromise doesn’t want to raise quotas, not even for skilled jobs. Nor for low skilled jobs. Any kind of job. And really, the compromise is going to collapse, or enact a bill that just will not work.

    And what’s really ridiculous is this trigger that says it goes into effect when somebody declares the border secured. First problem: It’s not just border crossers, that only applies to Latin America. Second problem, who says that after the border is declared secured it won’t gte unsecured again? Shall we say there is a Presdident who doesn’t want to seal the border? If he doesn’t, and he’s doing it only to get immigration liberalizxed, which seems to be the poremise here, then after he has gotten what he wanted, why wouldn’t he ease up?

    There’s not much thinking going on here. And MArco Rubio>? he’;s afraiod. he doesn’t want opposition. Doies he think it is possible not to getg opposition from such places as Numnbers USA.

    Even more, does he and others not understand that the way to overcome the Republicans’ Hispanic problem – that is avoid the Republican Party being a pariah in some quarters – is precisely to get such opposition??

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  55. But a sizable portion of Mexican, as well as Central American, immigrants, however hardworking, lack the social capital to inoculate their children reliably against America’s contagious underclass culture.

    This would be an argument for making certain Zip comes off limits for most poor new immigrants, or at lesast forbidding them to attend public schools, not for keeping them out of the country altogether.

    THIS IS ACTUALLY A PROBLEM OF ASSIMILATION.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  56. 27. Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/10/2013 @ 6:46 am

    punishment should fit the crime. if the crime is to sneak into a country to make a better life for your family and contribute to a community,
    that’s pretty different from most crimes.

    The problem you are faced with then, is that it doesn’t make any sense for anybody to obey the law. The harm to the United States is imaginary, and the gain to the people violating the law is extreme.

    And the truth of the matter is of course, they are exercising the right of the pursuit of happiness, which belongs to all people, and there is no arguing about it (as the Declaration of Independence says, it is self-evident) and governments exist in the first place to help that along, not to frustrate it.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  57. mr. daley let’s not get carried away

    we can start with the part where we stop the hating and go from there

    pasos de bebé!

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  58. Comment by beer ‘n pretzels (6ef50f) — 4/10/2013 @ 8:40 am

    It may be 130 years for Mexico and Guatemala because people from these countries have a high percentage of visa violations..

    That has to do with vistor’s visas. The 130 years is for permanent residence, and it is that high, because, Congress, in its wisdom (??!) set a maximum number of immigration visas for each country, excluding spouses.

    Countries with a lot of demand and a large population, like Mexico and India and China, lose out.

    And this 130 years probably applies to a certain category. Lots of people dont fit into any category at all.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  59. No JD, We should assume the following
    1. They’re not going to do something that isn’t in their self-interest.
    2. They’re smart enough to check the requirements before the start the process.
    3. They’re competent enough to make sure they comply with the requirements before they officially start.

    We should not make any assumptions, other than to assume that the illegal immigrant in question has shown a disregard for our laws up to this point in time.

    JD (f67592)

  60. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/10/2013 @ 10:56 am

    and protect the rights of homosexual child predators

    Now this is interesting. They want to say that a male homosexual is no more likely to molest child than a male heterosexual. But one third of all cases of sexual abuse involve boys. Now the highest estimate of the percentage of males who are homosexual (and this is way too high!) is 3%.

    Comes out then that a homosexual is ten times as likely to be a pedophile than a heterosexual male. * (if, of course pedophiles belong in the same category as standard homosexuals. As a matter of fact pedophiles probably are divided into several categories themselves, depending on the age range they favor. Those who target people in the late teens over the age of 16 are not really pedophiles, in the sense of having a different sexual orientation, but those who target those younger are.)

    * Not that one tenth are – you can say the incidence of any kind of pedophilia is very low, but one person has many victims)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  61. Comment by luagha (697349) — 4/10/2013 @ 9:18 am

    Here’s an immigration proposal: ten millions dollars paid against our national debt buys you an American citizenship. Done and done

    You know that’s ridiculous and would probably reward only unethical people.

    Make that $10,000 and you’d have a possible comporomise that would work. It doesn’t have to buy American citizenship, just the residence, with citizenship to come in due couirse.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  62. Comment by Robin Munn (3ce417) — 4/10/2013 @ 2:11 am

    And sane laws are not something I think Congress is capable of passing.

    True. So why should anyone want to see laws, whatever they arem, enforced?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  63. Comment by Ken in Camarillo (2c0dee) — 4/10/2013 @ 12:56 am

    there is a limit to how many immigrants we can successfully assimilate per year.

    Really???

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  64. Any deal should be have one major precondition to take effect:

    14th Amendment Section 1 needs to be noted as a remedy to the very shitty slavery policy that the US had. It’s absurd to equate someone sneaking across the border with the experiences and suffering of blacks during the first half of the United States. Therefore any immigration deal should only be valid if a new constitutional amendment is passed that qualifies the 14th, Sec. 1 as applying to children whose parents are in the US legally and not under government supervision (that is if you sneak in and spend time in jail, you can’t have a kid who gets citizenship.)

    Unless that is passed by congress and ratified by the states there should be no immigration reform.

    malcom digest (e6b817)

  65. “we can start with the part where we stop the hating and go from there”

    Mr. Feets – I am down with that. We are all God’s chirren, after all.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. If you’re here legally, you get a Green Card
    If your parents brought you here illegally, you get a yellow card.
    If you come illegally, you get a red card.
    All of you can get a drivers license with either a Green, Yellow or Red stripe on it. When it’s time to vote, you have to show your drivers license. no votes allowed for cards with stripes.

    The day we make it plain that they can’t vote is the day it stops being a Democratic Priority.

    Mark Reardon (1a140d)

  67. Comment by Mark Reardon (1a140d) — 4/10/2013 @ 12:21 pm

    The day we make it plain that they can’t vote is the day it stops being a Democratic Priority.

    It doesn’t matter too much. First, for any legislative seat, what counts is total population, not how many citizens there are unless the non-citizens are very different from the citizens. Second, you have the family members, the church members, the friends and acquaintances, even employers of the non-citizens.

    Having a lot of legal non-citizens can create a lot of complications in determining who is eligible to vote. It’s mostly on the honor system now., Usually illegal people aren’t interested enough and afraid of tangling with authority and legal people want to stay within the law, and aren’t familar with voting anyway.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  68. i go to my tax appt today and i may be fleeing to mexico shortly thereafter Mr. daley

    i will camp in the desert under the bandito moon and eat canned goods and gila monster tails until Tonatiuh blesses me with a vision of the shining path forward

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  69. that’s the coyote that talked to Homer, after the chili episode.

    narciso (3fec35)

  70. $10,000 is way way too little. Saudi Arabia will buy cities if it’s set that low.

    Anyone who has ten million to spend on US Citizenship is guaranteed to not be a burden on our welfare state.

    I was considering one million, but it seemed too small.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  71. “i go to my tax appt today and i may be fleeing to mexico shortly thereafter Mr. daley”

    Mr. Feets – I still haven’t got my refund from my 2011 taxes what I filed last October 15. The dirty socialist Obama administration is bitterly clinging to my money. I might file an amended return see if I can shake it loose.

    Still gotta do returns for the three lads, myself and the ex.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  72. what is this “refund” of which you speak

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  73. A: They can go home and apply for a visa to enter this country legally.

    B: But, not enough are allowed in, and they have to wait!

    A: So the issue isn’t the status of people here, it’s current restrictions on immigration.

    B: No, many have come here anyway. What’s to be done with them?

    A: Go to the top.

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  74. Um, doesn’t the US actually have an immigration policy that already admits more new immigrants legally than any other nation on earth? A recent survey done internationally showed something like 130MM people living abroad yearn to move to the US – unfortunately most are uneducated and unskilled so as to put into doubt their ability to be of a net POSITIVE affect on this nation. Where do we get to draw the line?

    Why on God’s green earth is the US somehow obligated to fling open its borders to accept all who want to come here rather than picking and choosing those who would benefit our country? And why should US citizens be required to pay for their dependence on social welfare programs? Out historic immigration policy assured us that the government was a gatekeeper – admitting only those that would not be a financial burden on the nation and who displayed some desire to assimilate into the American culture – not the putting those candidates in a line extending 130 years while welcoming the poor, ill, low skilled, uneducated and all their relatives.

    In the past decade the average annual transfer of private funds between Mexicans in the US and recipients in Mexico exceeded $28Billion. Yet these same immigrants are substantially more likely to participate in receiving government benefits than native born Americans. We have ripped up our health car system by the roots to benefit those who were “too poor” to afford insurance under the existing program. But as a recent study revealed by 2020 an estimated 30MM people in this country will still be uncovered!

    I know I am old fashioned when I advocate actually enforcing our laws rather than casting them aside only to provide political advantage to the Democrats. It seems that nobody in Washington EVER considers that as an option to any problem.

    in_awe (7c859a)

  75. Hey, that’s fun, Patterico!

    http://qkme.me/3tu1rz

    Colonel Haiku (39b448)

  76. “THIS IS ACTUALLY A PROBLEM OF ASSIMILATION.”

    Sammy – No, this is a problem of being in this country illegally.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  77. When someone writes that:

    But a sizable portion of Mexican, as well as Central American, immigrants, however hardworking, lack the social capital to inoculate their children reliably against America’s contagious underclass culture.

    What he’s saying is that they are assimilating.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  78. Don’t the number of people waiting in a line have some effect on the length of the line? If the US is prepared to take 100,000 people a year from Mexico, but there are 3,000,000 people that sign up for those 100K spaces, won’t that mean there is a very, very, long line? And, if that is true, then in order to make the line “realistic”, the US would have to abandon its own judgement about how many people it was prepared to accept (the 100K), and just take as many as want to come?

    Not a serious plan, unless your plan is unlimited immigration.

    Anon Y. Mous (cb1134)

  79. assimilation is my favorite after the vaccines and the maple bars

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  80. “What he’s saying is that they are assimilating.”

    Sammy – What he is saying is that they are not assimilating. My point is that if the family entered the country illegally, if we were enforcing our laws, assimilation would not be an issue for them, their kids, or subsequent generations born in this country as a result of the original lawbreaking.

    From the same article Mark cited specifically about California:

    “Hispanics’ low rates of naturalization and civic participation have depressed their political influence below their population numbers. Nearly 40 percent of Latino adults are ineligible to vote, according to Lisa Garcia Bedolla, an education professor at UC Berkeley.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  81. Mr. Feets – I would like to assimilate with Kate Upton.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. What he’s saying is that they are assimilating.

    If you’re implying that either the process of assimilating or not assimilating should be taken into consideration in how we view immigrants, and, whether it’s one or the other, we therefore need to shed tears and give warm hugs to those immigrants, then you’re a fool.

    I don’t care if the “undocumented” are exhibiting lousy socio-economic traits because of the process of assimilation or a lack of such. Or because they’re being boosted or enabled — or not — by the American culture. All I care about is that they’re adding another huge layer to the underclass of this society. And that unlike the immigrants of yore — streaming in past the Statue of Liberty — who at least showed signs of upward mobility (certainly via academic performance) one or two generations removed, the Latino/Mexican demographic ain’t following in a similar pathway.

    Socio-economic mediocrity run amok combined with political liberalism run amok (aka, Mexico Syndrome with a dash of Greece Anomie) is not something I admire or look forward to.

    Mark (03ca77)

  83. This is just another example of modern lawlessness.

    They aren’t able politically to change immigration law to make low-skilled immigration easier. Of course not, they would have to go against the unions, and it would be difficult anyway – politicians don’t do difficult things, and the public is not in the habit of thinking things through.

    So we just let them in and then whine about their status. We get another fait accompli. They appeal to emotion, and we get solutions that have no hope of long-term lawful governance, solutions that appear to address the pain now but would foment far more in the future. The whole point of written law is lost on this generation, lost in the quest for short-term political advantage.

    The rule of law is an adult thing. Our nation is not controlled by adults.

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  84. I basically agree here, Patterico, and I think I’ve argued about the non-existence of “the line” (or at least a window at the front of the line) for some time now.

    And yet I find myself unwilling to just say “whatever.” How you came here matters and to become a CITIZEN it matters a lot.

    So, my bottom line: No matter what, a person who last entered the US, as an adult, illegally may not become a citizen. People who last entered the US illegally as children might become citizens, but only if they meet some conditions.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  85. As for limiting the number of immigrants, fine, but when the law is unworkable it is ignored and results in no effective limits. Current immigration law has been counterproductive for decades now.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  86. Also, we need to have some reciprocity. Why can’t I buy a house in Guadalajara, operate a business and expect equal treatment under the law there?

    These prehistoric anti-Gringo hate laws just have got to go before I’ll sign on the rest of this.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  87. The standards for giving oput green cards (after ten years) are so tough – they include monitoring who leaves the US by air or sea which no Admionistration seems willing to do maybe because they know it will cause trouble with friendly foreign countries – that it is highly likely if it passed, that there’d be a big mnove to just transfer people to permanent residency anyway, and it would be enacted. Any opposition to that would leave the Republican Party precisely where it is now and worse..

    Saqmmy Finkelman (d22d64)

  88. Sammy–

    It is almost certain that all otherwise law-abiding illegals who can show they have paid their taxes will get green cards in this “reform.” The whole idea of “getting back in line” ignores the fact that the line doesn’t move.

    The real arguments are over:

    1. Building the wall or other barrier to more of the same
    2. The possibility of citizenship
    3. New rules for future immigration from Mexico and/or Central America.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  89. Was just reading about the ‘EB-5’ visa in the Wall Street Journal:

    “Virginia was particularly alarmed by GreenTech’s use of an opaque visa program, called EB-5, to fund itself. Part of a 1990 immigration law, EB-5 lets foreigners who invest at least $500,000 in a U.S. company receive green cards. A federal immigration agency approves “regional centers” that administer the program. ”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323741004578416821313987276.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

    So apparently you can in fact buy a green card for a $500,000 investment in an american company that’s willing to fill out the forms… And is, say, owned by Terry McAuliffe and the Democrat party.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  90. 89. Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 4/11/2013 @ 4:47 pm

    Sammy–

    It is almost certain that all otherwise law-abiding illegals who can show they have paid their taxes will get green cards in this “reform.” The whole idea of “getting back in line” ignores the fact that the line doesn’t move.

    A lot of people don’t know that. But they have an way of handling that. The plan hasn’t been fully woirked out – and maybe it can’t be – but according to what I read in a newspaper, the plan is to clear the backlog after about 10 years, so then, people who apply for the new status would reach the top of the line at that point if the line began then!

    Also, they want to allow some other category of person to get in line at the same time so they can say illegal presence would not be required for legal immigration.

    They also want to remove siblings from the list of relatives who can immigrate and add permanent residents to the people who can bring in spouses (and some other family members) outside of any quota.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  91. The real arguments are over:

    1. Building the wall or other barrier to more of the same

    The plan apparently calls for a virtual wall.

    They are supposed to be able to detect every person crossing the border and detain or inspect 90% of them.

    It doesn’t bother about sea travel.

    The proposal wants to keep a record of people who leave the USA by air or sea, meaning commercial transportation where people buy tickets mostly.

    That could get a lot of people from visa free countries in trouble. Unless somebody changes the penalties for overstaying a visa. It would be ahrd to hold conferenbces in the USA.

    E-verify is supposed to be required. Of every Mom and Pop store? And what is to guarantee that the person on the books is the same person doing the work? Did you read Joe Haldeman’s “the Forever War?”

    http://books.google.com/books?id=l4lxLsH2n3YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22the+forever+war%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HVFoUdk4h-LSAd_0gMgH&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=job&f=false

    See page 125ff

    She works six nights a week, for 12,000k a week. She gets tired of working, so she contacts a dealer and lets him know that her job is available. “Some time before this, I’d given the dealer his initial..

    The number of visas is probably set far too low.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  92. 2. The possibility of citizenship

    This is the part where there is actually the most agreement. Nobody amnestied is supposed to be able to vote for at least another 13 years. Politicians care about that, but not people pro or anti-immigrant. Or not too much.

    3. New rules for future immigration from Mexico and/or Central America.

    Is that the cutoff of siblings?

    This whole thing will have so many problems with it it won’t become law.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  93. Page 126 of “the Forever War”

    “So the real Hailey Williams gets 6000k weekly for doing nothing. I work three days a week for 4050k. My assistant works days for 1115k. the dealer gets 100,000k in fees and 735k per week. Lopsided, isn’t it?”

    Coming your way?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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